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Friday, September 19, 2014

One Play Counts: Jamal Crawford

This play is from the Boston game on November 18th, and as soon as it happened I had wanted to talk about it. Unfortunately by the time I got the video/screen shots together Jamal had already been traded. So with the Warriors coming into town on Sunday, I’ve decided to publish it.

Knicks at Boston, 1:15 2nd quarter 11/18/2008


On this play Jamal Crawford (denoted by “J”) is guarding Ray Allen (denoted by the brown circle). Behind him in the post is Wilson Chandler (denoted by “W”) on Leon Powe. Powe comes around to set a pick on Crawford.


Powe sets the pick & Crawford gets swallowed by it. Chandler is forced to switch and guard Allen. At the free throw line is Zach Randolph who sees the switch and makes the decision to move back to cover Powe. Zach Randolph’s current assignment is Big Baby Davis who is at the top of the key.


With Zach Randolph dropping back to cover Powe, Jamal Crawford is left guarding nobody. He tries to get back to his man Ray Allen, but Crawford has a lot of ground to makeup. However due to Randolph’s switch Big Baby is free to set a pick on Chandler. Look at him in this photo, he looks like an offensive lineman dropping back for pass coverage.


Chandler is unable to get around Big Baby and Allen is free. What should Crawford do in this situation? He should head under the screen and across the court to the free throw line to cut off Allen from having a wide open look at the basket. (Crawford’s suggested route is shown by the arrow.)


Notice that none of the other Knicks are in a position to help. Chandler is stuck with Big Baby, and if any of the other Knicks on the strong side help, the Celtics are either going to have an easy bucket in the paint or a wide open three.

So what does Crawford do?



He stays on the weak side and lazily heads to the baseline. It’s not as obvious in the photos, but if you watch the video, he just gives up on the play. It’s like there’s an invisible barrier that prevents him from crossing over the paint to the strong side. Allen drains a wide open jumper at the free throw line for an easy 2 points.


Look at a comparison between where Crawford should have gone & where he actually went.

Who is he attempting to guard? Powe is the closest person & he’s taken by Randolph. Does Crawford expect to guard Powe 4 feet from the hoop? And if so Randolph is the furthest from the ball at this time in the play.


Looking back at the play it all begins with Crawford’s inability to deal with the pick by Powe. He neither goes over or under it, but instead runs into it. If I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt I could say that perhaps Chandler didn’t call it out & Crawford was unaware. Earlier this year the Knicks Blog was keeping track of which guards go over/under screens. Of the 40 picks that were set on Crawford, he managed to go over only on 4 of them. Compare to Duhon (52 of 59) and Robinson (8 of 42), and it’s clear that the pick & roll is a major weakness with Crawford. Additionally this is something Knick fans, myself included, have noticed for years.

But failing to defend the pick & roll isn’t Crawford’s only folly. He makes things worse by just giving up on the play. Jamal makes no attempt to challenge Allen after Chandler gets picked. He just leaves Ray Allen wide open for an easy jumper. It’s Crawford’s lack of effort in multiple areas that has made him a poor defender over the course of his career.

[BTW I'd like to give mad props to Gian of SevenSecondsOrMess. I can't tell how time consuming this activity was, and I didn't even do a full video with cool graphics and a voice over.]

82 comments on “One Play Counts: Jamal Crawford

  1. Ben R

    Great breakdown Mike, it is going to be nice to have a team with no Crawford, Randolph or Curry playing lazy defense.

    We do not have the best defensive players but we will get effort almost across the board on the defensive end which should make our defense better or at least more watchable.

  2. SeanC3

    Great analysis. This is the type of stuff that makes me always stop by this site.

    Its completely true, Crawford’s defensive instincts were atrocious, although Nate’s are pretty bad too.

  3. Z

    The Knicks were hopelessly undermanned against a superior Pistons team yesterday, but honestly, I thought that in stretches they played half court D as well as I had seen it from them in a long time. Addition by subtraction perhaps?– Get Crawford (and Randolph) off the court and the D automatically improves because it has no where else to go but up…

  4. BigBlueAL

    IF, and right now it looks like a BIG IF, Mobley plays they will be alot better defensively. You could see, aside from his ball-hogging, that Al Harrington can play D, even on the perimeter. With Jeffries back soon and again hopefully Mobley, they could actually be a decent defensive team, albeit an under-sized, rebounding-challenged team.

    Ill tell you one thing, they have to be a better defensive team because this team no longer has the offensive firepower to score as they did earlier. Yes Zach and Jamal were frustrating to watch on offense because of their ball-hogging/poor shot selection, but they could score in bunches and get their own shots at will. Aside from Nate and even Al Harrington once he settles down, there isnt nobody else on this team now that can get their own shot.

    The offense once they are familiar with eachother should look good and feature better ball movement/teamwork than it did with Zach and Jamal, but it will have its ugly games and especially late in the game when they need a score, who knows how they will be able to get a good look aside from Nate breaking his man down.

    But again, I am looking forward to seeing this team play after a month or so and with hopefully both Jeffries and Mobley back….

  5. Ben R

    I do not think that the team will necessarily be worse offensively. Both Tim Thomas and Al Harrington have the potential to be more efficient than Jamal or Zach. They cannot create their own shot as well but I would say that most of the time a well run offense will create a better shot than all but the best players in the game.

    I would say that at least 4 out of every 5 shots Jamal or Zach “created” were worse than the shot the offense would have created if it had been ran well. Right now Harrington is not playing within the system but I think he will settle down and fit nicely into this offense.

    I am looking forward to a team in which everyone is playing within the system and the one on one basketball is a thing of the past.

  6. Ted Nelson

    The interesting thing about Harrington is that when the GS mess first started he was ranting to the press about how he has been a star in this league and carried teams before…
    He made it clear that he wanted to carry a team, play 40 mpg, and be allowed to do whatever he wants (I’m not clear on what the last point meant… was it that he wants to play inside and Nellie wanted him on the perimeter, or vice versa?). Given that background info I’m not surprised that he’s doing everything in his power to shoulder the scoring load for the Knicks, for better or worse. The good news is that it would be hard for him to score much worse than he has so far. He’s making me miss Mardy Collins at this point.

    ——————————————–

    I think they should get better defensively as a result of the trades, but I’m not 100% convinced. As I’ve stated a few times, I don’t think Mobley is anything special defensively: an upgrade over Crawford but no better than Nate. I also wonder if they won’t miss Zach’s big body down low a bit… I know he’s not much of a defender, but he was the only Knick (bsides maybe Malik Rose) who could provide some resistence to hefty low-post scorers. I see Thomas, Jeffries, and Harrington largely being used as traffic cones by those guys, just like David Lee has been all year.
    I think the defense will improve, but I’m not sure if it will be significantly or marginally. At this point they’re the 26th defense in the NBA, which is more or less where I expected them to be (25th).

    ——————————————-

    “Ill tell you one thing, they have to be a better defensive team because this team no longer has the offensive firepower to score as they did earlier. Yes Zach and Jamal were frustrating to watch on offense because of their ball-hogging/poor shot selection, but they could score in bunches and get their own shots at will.”

    I still don’t follow this logic… Where will these shots go? I think Ben R makes a very good point: “I would say that most of the time a well run offense will create a better shot than all but the best players in the game.”

    The Knicks are the 16th best offense in the NBA so far, and to be honest I expected more. Zach and Jamal (besides this season, when he was scoring very efficiently) were terribly inefficient compared to their peers: other high usage players asked to play similar roles. The shots that they created were mostly the wild, contested, long jumper variety, so I fail to see how the Knicks will be much worse off even if they end up forced to take wild, contested, long jumpers as the clock winds down. Given D’Antoni’s preference for shooting early in the shot clock and what is likely to be slightly improved ball movement (both are actually good passers when they want to be so I’m not sure the ball movement will get much better), I don’t see them suffering that much.

    The reasons I could see them suffering offensively relative to before the trades is that they played a soft schedule and Jamal was on fire. I also see them suffering if Al Harrington and/or Cat Mobley simply take over the the chucker roles left behind. I assume Harrington will adjust, though.

    The benefit of the trades is that the Knicks picked up historically good outside shooters to replace historically bad outside shooters. Given that the Knicks attempt 4.6 more 3 pointers per game than any team in the NBA and 8 more than the #3 team… this could play to their advantage. (Jamal was on fire this season, but if he regresses back towards his career average on the season it means he’d probably be below his career average from here on out.) If this also opens up space for Wilson Chandler to get to the hole and draw some fouls it could be great.
    Speaking of the Knicks’ inside game, wonder how Eddy Curry’s doing? Any chance he becomes active again this season?

  7. Matthew

    Let’s be fair here though, don’t put all this on Crawford. Did Dantoni take him out of the game at the next timeout or even say something to him about it? I doubt it. Why should we expect effort when there is no punishment for not giving it?

  8. Matthew

    Ted: Yeah, Harrington was a “star” on the 04/05 Hawks team that went 13-69. He led the team in points for the year, that’s probably where he’s getting the “star” thing from.

  9. Ray

    So according to todays paper Q Rich has taken his frustration with Marbury to papers. He said stuff that im sure a lot of the rest of the team has been thinking. Im hoping that this situation get resolved very soon. Also, does anyone know when Cuttino will be joining the team? Also, Jarred Jeffries?

  10. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Let’s be fair here though, don’t put all this on Crawford. Did Dantoni take him out of the game at the next timeout or even say something to him about it? I doubt it. Why should we expect effort when there is no punishment for not giving it?

    If D’Antoni took Crawford out of the game every time he made a mistake like this, Crawford wouldn’t have much playing time. And it’s hard to trade someone that isn’t playing much (see: Curry, Eddy; James, Jerome).

  11. nj hoop

    The Knicks were hopelessly undermanned against a superior Pistons team yesterday, but honestly, I thought that in stretches they played half court D as well as I had seen it from them in a long time. Addition by subtraction perhaps?– Get Crawford (and Randolph) off the court and the D automatically improves because it has no where else to go but up…

    I noticed the better defensive effort as well. The Pistons had to work pretty hard for their points early on, but the Knicks slowly ran out of gas. I think these trades will be a wash – they’ll improve defensively, but offensive production will decline.

  12. Gian Casimiro (SSoM)

    Let’s be fair here though, don’t put all this on Crawford. Did Dantoni take him out of the game at the next timeout or even say something to him about it? I doubt it. Why should we expect effort when there is no punishment for not giving it?

    Crawford was benched midway through the third quarter against Boston. Then he was traded two days later, though that’s probably not related.

    Also, does anyone know when Cuttino will be joining the team? Also, Jarred Jeffries?

    There’s talk of Mobley being shut down indefinitely but the latest reports said Jeffries’ first practice is today.

  13. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AoAjA3Fdj33I3yZLiITPHIC8vLYF?slug=ap-knicks-marburysuspended&prov=ap&type=lgns

    “I didn’t create this,” he said. “I’m sitting inside the car. I’m not behind the wheel in the driver’s seat. I have no control of the wheel of the car, if we’re turning or going straight. I’m sitting in the back seat. He’s not going to play me because my heart isn’t in it, because the way he treated me. That’s on him, not me.”

    Yeah but when your friends are nice enough to give you a ride, and then they ask you to jump out and grab you some chips & soda and you refuse…

  14. Italian Stallion

    Personally, I think Mobley is going to be playing very soon. The probability that this is some kind of new health issue is very low. I think we are simply talking about a new organization being very thorough before playing a new player with a known heart problem and putting him and the organization at any risk. Mobley may have to sign some kind of waiver etc… before being free to play.

  15. Tom S

    Would it be naive to think that the Knicks were running a 2-3 Zone on that play(as it seems), to which Jamal’s responsibility in that play was(switched from right-top) to the nearside baseline (thanks to Chandler jumping up)? If that’s the case then it’s the responsibility of the person whose zone Allen walked into(Duhon) to pick Allen up.

  16. Gian Casimiro (SSoM)

    Would it be naive to think that the Knicks were running a 2-3 Zone on that play(as it seems), to which Jamal’s responsibility in that play was(switched from right-top) to the nearside baseline (thanks to Chandler jumping up)? If that’s the case then it’s the responsibility of the person whose zone Allen walked into(Duhon) to pick Allen up.

    They’re playing man.

  17. Thomas B.

    The Marbury situation reminds me of an old story that goes something like this:

    A snake is sitting at the edge of a riverbank. The snake wants to cross but he cannot swim as he has no arms or legs. A few feet away sits a rabbit preparing to cross the river while keeping a cautious eye on the snake.

    The snake knows that the rabbit is a strong swimmer thanks to his large feet and powerful legs. The snake also knows that the rabbit is fearful of him because he has eaten so many rabbits in the past.

    “Rabbit,” calls the snake. “Help me cross this river and then in return for this favor I promise never to hunt your kind again.”

    “If I let you onto my back, you will surely bite me as I swim” the rabbit replies.

    “Rabbit,” replies the snake. “What sense would that make? If I were to bite you while on your back, you would not be able to swim. And I would drown, for I cannot swim as you very well know. I know that you fear me, but help me do this thing and you shall be free from me forevermore.”

    The rabbit was enticed by the idea of being free from the danger the snake presented. Furthermore, the snake made a perfectly logical argument. Surely, the snake would not risk his own life by biting his means of transport; he would die as a result. So the rabbit agreed to help the snake.

    The rabbit jumped into the water, swam to where the snake sat, and allowed the snake to slide onto his back. As the rabbit crossed the halfway point of the river, he felt a sharp pain followed by numbness in his limbs. He turned his head to see that the snake had bitten him.

    “Now you will die as well.” said the rabbit. “Why would you do that?”

    The snake replied, “I am a snake. This is what snakes do.”
    ——————-
    The parallel should be clear.

    I have been a Marbury defender for a long time on this site. I defend him not because I agree with his actions, but because those that attack him seem to see him only in terms of right and wrong. Much like the snake, Marbury is neither right nor wrong. He is–as the snake was–himself.

    What Marbury is doing now is the same thing he has always done when he felt that management did not treat him well. We saw it in Minnesota (contract), New Jersey (playing style), and New York (take your pick). A snake will always bite a rabbit when the opportunity presents itself.

    The rabbit in the case — the Knicks’ front office — should have known that if they created a situation where Marbury could bite them, he would do it. The front office did just that by not communicating with Marbury and not giving him the chance to prove that he could help. That is their right to do. I do not argue that. But when they made that decision, they should have known how Marbury would respond. If the Knicks intended to go in a different direction, which is their right to do. The Knicks should have waived Marbury and lived with the consequences of that.

    Much like the rabbit wanted to be free from the snake; the Knicks want to be free of Marbury. The river to cross is the 1 year left on Marbury’s contract. Rather than just leaving Marbury on the riverbank (waiving him), the Knicks tried to carry the contract until they could get something they wanted like a salary settlement, a trade, a promise that Marbury would not help a rival. This was appallingly stupid.

    If you keep Marbury around you must treat him well. If you create a condition where he will bite you, then you WILL be bitten. Marbury is costing himself future job opportunities, endorsement deals, shoe sales, ect. Why would he do this?

    “I am Marbury. This is what I do.”

  18. Italian Stallion

    Thomas,

    I agree with your analysis of Marbury, but I think it’s possible management knew they were dealing with a snake and that’s why they weren’t honest with him from the start.

    Had they told him he was not in their plans before pre season, what are the chances he would have shown up in top shape, worked hard in camp, been cooperative and quiet, and played well?

    I estimate them at 0%. LOL

    However, in order for him to have any value at all in either a trade or combo buyout/signing, that’s exactly what they needed for him to do. He was coming off surgery and has such a bad reputation etc… He had to prove his value. (which he did)

    I think the idea that the Knicks should just release him or buy him out for the full value of his contract to avoid any hassle at all is faulty. The Knicks are still a business and Marbury is still an asset.

    It can be argued that D’Antoni hasn’t handled the situation especially well. He probably should have come clean BEFORE the regular season actually started or just used him for awhile, but overall I think some kind of hassle was unavoidable because Marbury IS A SNAKE and they wanted to get rid of him!

  19. Thomas B.

    IS,

    I see no ill effects from your recent nuero-surgery. The fact that you agree with me clearly shows that you are thinking at optimal levels. :-)

    Yes, I agree that they knew they were dealing with a snake, hence they should have left him on the riverbank. Leaving Marbury was not good enough for Walsh. Walsh hates cutting players. He let his pride and belief that he could make the most out of this get in the way from the truth, Marbury is a snake.

    Now let me say, there is nothing wrong with being a snake, you just have to know how to deal with one. You are correct in that D’antoni should not have poked the snake by saying that Marbury has a clean slate, and that there could be room for him on the team, then turn around and bench the guy, then not dress the guy to keep fans quiet.

    D’antoni and Walsh have played this hand as about as poorly as it can be done. Check out this quote from Marbs “If you say I gotta play, I’m going to play,” Marbury said. “If he said I have to play, guess what, I’m going to get on the court and play, period. If I refuse to play, I’m getting suspended. I never told him I’m not going to play. Those words never came out of my mouth. That’s insubordination.-fox sports. I have to appluad that.

    Marbury is playing this to perfection. He has been doing this so long he knows exactly how to get what he wants without violating the contract. As an attorney, I love to see technicalities exploited that way. Bravo! Go Steph, today the Knicks tommorow Cornell Law! Well, he has to finish college first but then Cornell Law!!

  20. Thomas B.

    The Marbury situation reminds me of an old story that goes something like this:

    A snake is sitting at the edge of a riverbank….

    Hmmm where have I heard this story before…

    http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=509

    Well, if I may borrow a line from Krusty the Clown:

    “If this is anyone but Steve Allen, you’re stealing my bit.”

  21. Italian Stallion

    Let’s see the end game.

    If they wind up saving 4-5M, then we can debate whether it was worth the hassle.

  22. Ted Nelson

    We’ve all been through this before, but I’ll put my 3 cents in again.

    1. Just because someone is a snake, doesn’t mean you sink to their level. In this situation, as a professional basketball organization, you treat all the players with respect. Donnie Walsh certainly comes across as someone who treats every player with respect, and I don’t think he intentionally treated Marbury any other way. I’m sure he gave the rabbit looking at the snake look, but I don’t think he was out to be dishonest to Stephon Marbury. Of course, I have no idea.

    2. Marbury always had a reputation for being in great shape. There was a time when he didn’t look to be in amazing shape, but wasn’t horribly out of shape either. His career went off track because of his mental performance, not his physical performance.
    Anyway, if you told him you were going to cut him or trade him he’d have a whole lot of incentive to get into shape to earn his next contract (either immediately or next season).

    3. I think that Walshtoni could have played it a whole lot worse (see the past several years), but I agree they’ve botched it.
    Half-assedly trying to suspend him without even trying to put it in the game could prove to be their biggest misstep thus far, I’m interested to see how this plays out. D’Antoni looks like he has no authority and Steph is playing him: well he told me he didn’t like me and called me a poppy pants so I want to suspend him… please Donnie, if you don’t suspend him I’m not going to like you! Walsh looks like he has no control over the situation (because he doesn’t, James Dolan does). And the situation might get a lot worse when the players union takes this up. They might have no interest in defending Marbury but they can’t let a precedent like this be set: based on round about remarks in the locker room the coach is too scared to put the player in the game, accuses him of insubordination, and he gets suspended???? A player could basically be suspended for giving a coach a mean look, the NBA might turn out like the NFL where young men’s bodies are exploited, they’re cut whenever management sees fit, and suspended whenever Roger Goodell has a Klan meeting (go Giants, by the way… I’m a hypocrite, I’ll admit it). I hope it doesn’t turn into that. Walshtoni is certainly not doing much to win over Jon Abbey’s buddy Stern, although he’s going to love them in 2010.

    I agree that we should wait for it to play out, but I’m also interested in seeing how much hassle there is. It’s already pretty ugly, but I think it can get a whole lot worse.

  23. Italian Stallion

    Ted, you crack me up.

    He’s told he’s being benched and he abandons the team and threatens to spill all sorts of dirt on the coach and organization (a coach he actually likes) unless he gets his way.

    He’s told he’s out of the plans and he immediately skips scrimmaging for over two weeks, doesn’t shoot around, and refuses to play when the team is very shorthanded etc…

    Yet you believe he would have come to camp in tip top shape, played to 100% of his ability, totally behaved himself, and proved his worth to league in pre season if they only told him in the off season that he wasn’t in the plans. ROTFLMAO

    The way D’Antoni handled this is debateable, but Steph is not.

  24. jon abbey

    well, again, I disagree that D’Antoni did anything wrong here. he assessed what he had in training camp, and (CORRECTLY, IMO) came to the conclusion that Crawford/Duhon/Nate was the best way to go at guard for the team, in part to showcase Jamal so they could dump his contract. I’ll contend that no matter how he handled that decision and no matter what happened from that point forward, Marbury would be acting like the sullen bitch that he is now.

    the one thing I really really really hope is that D’Antoni was smart enough to record the conversation before the Detroit game. if he did, I believe the suspension/fine will hold up, at the very least as part of a lesser buyout.

  25. Italian Stallion

    well, again, I disagree that D’Antoni did anything wrong here. he assessed what he had in training camp, and (CORRECTLY, IMO) came to the conclusion that Crawford/Duhon/Nate was the best way to go at guard for the team, in part to showcase Jamal so they could dump his contract. I’ll contend that no matter how he handled that decision and no matter what happened from that point forward, Marbury would be acting like the sullen bitch that he is now.
    the one thing I really really really hope is that D’Antoni was smart enough to record the conversation before the Detroit game. if he did, I believe the suspension/fine will hold up, at the very least as part of a lesser buyout.

    I actually think D’Antoni has been telling the truth on this matter.

    IMO, at some point he made the decision to not play Steph because Steph was not in the long terms plans. He decided it was better for the team chemistry and development to make a clean break instead of using him for awhile, disrupting the development of Duhon/Robinson/Crawford, and then making a change.

    He said something similar after the trades. He said (more or less) that he was happy it happened very early in the season so the players would have plenty of time together without it being too disruptive.

    I have only one question.

    Would he have been better off using Marbury until they could trade him and/or if they intended on buying him out right from the start, at least by being up front about it sooner than the first real game?

  26. Italian Stallion

    I don’t know a darn thing about the legality of contracts/suspensions, but I would guess that technically, by not actually refusing to enter a game when his number was called, Steph kept himself on safe grounds.

    However, if a coach asks if you are willing to play or offers you the starting role etc… and you say “you aren’t comfortable”, “I thought the team was going in another direction” etc… you are expressing in pretty clear terms that you really don’t want to play even if you are wording it carefully as to not be insubordinate. The coach is NOT going to call your number after that.

    I’d bet my life against a dollar that both D’Antoni and Steph were both very clear on where the other stood.

    Whether the Knicks can make the suspension and fine stick is probably irrelevent. At this point I think the more important question is whether they are allowed to just send him home permanently and pay him until a deal can be worked out. If they can, they should have done that as soon as there was any sign of trouble.

  27. jon abbey

    of course they can, that’s where Jamaal Tinsley is right now, and where Tim Thomas (for Chicago) and Steve Francis (for us) have been in the past.

  28. Italian Stallion

    of course they can, that’s where Jamaal Tinsley is right now, and where Tim Thomas (for Chicago) and Steve Francis (for us) have been in the past.

    Can’t the union complain to the league that the team is damaging the player by not allowing him to work out, practice, etc… with the team as long as he’s fit to do so?

  29. Italian Stallion

    “In the offseason, the Pacers told Tinsley he would not be allowed to practice or play with the team.
    He has remained away from the team while Bird has tried to find a trade partner.”
    http://www.indystar.com/article/20081115/SPORTS04/811150445

    Thanks. I didn’t think it was that easy.

    I may want to revise my opinion slightly. I think the Knicks MAY have mishandled this a bit.

    If D’Antoni never intended on using him, they should have sent him home much sooner.

    If D’Antoni has been truthful in saying that he’s out of the rotation for now, but that things could change if there was an injury etc… then I think they should send him home now because of his refusal to play until they can trade him or buy him out – end of story.

  30. Thomas B.

    “In the offseason, the Pacers told Tinsley he would not be allowed to practice or play with the team.

    He has remained away from the team while Bird has tried to find a trade partner.”

    http://www.indystar.com/article/20081115/SPORTS04/811150445

    This is what the Knicks should have done. If you are not going to placate Marbury, then the best bet is to get as far away from him as possible. Marbury can be, as jon notes, a “sullen bitch.” So if you know this, why not just steer clear of him altogether?

    Even if you give Steph everything he asked for, you cant be sure he will be good. But if you dont give him the respect he feels he deserves, then you can be sure that he will not be good. If you know that you will lose if you don’t play the right way, your only choice to avoid losing is to either play the right way or not play at all.

  31. giantsknickfan420

    stop making excuses for marbury hes the 2nd highest paid player in the league. If D’antoni and walsh want him to sell hot dogs, so be it. This guy has dont NOTHING. not for the knicks, wolves,nets,suns NOTHING. let it go, he doenst appreciate the uni he was wearing. Id rather have a willing and able player, refusing to play twice and publicly stating that u dont trust the coach is upsurd. o ya and lets blame D’antoni too for him leaving the team last yr in phx. the apologists will make every excuse in the book. U may not agree with how exactly everything unfolds, but D’antoni knows marbury isnt a core guy. let it be. WE DO NOT NEED HIM.

    As for jamal

  32. Thomas B.

    stop making excuses for marbury hes the 2nd highest paid player in the league. If D’antoni and walsh want him to sell hot dogs, so be it. This guy has dont NOTHING. not for the knicks, wolves,nets,suns NOTHING.

    I don’t think anyone here is making excuses for Marbury. I thnk that most of us understand that niether side is perfect. Marbury is being himself, you cant be upset with him for that. Either do what it takes to please him or do not deal with him. That is not an excuse, it is factorial.

    We worked on fictional NBA contracts for a sports law class I took in law school. I dont recall a hotdog clause. Hey TDM, have you heard of the hotdog clause?

    Marbury tends to do more for the underprivileged (school supplies, Katrina relief, sports equipment, scholarships) than he does for his employers. He is sort of like Robin Hood that way.

  33. AlbanyKnicks

    Dolan made a point of treating Isiah with respect even though many people were really angry with Thomas. Knicks management has not embarrassed Curry even though Curry reported out of shape and has a long contract. They have even let James slide even though the Knicks obviously need a big man and he is out of shape.

    The Knicks were not upfront with Marbury. It is now clear that Knicks management did not want Marbury to play unless there was an emergency, such as injuries and trades. They could have told him that prior to the start of the season.

    Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson both landed on their feet after leaving Walsh’s Pacers.

    Maybe Marbury will wind up in a strong program and do well. Marbury has a terrible reputation but he made a point of letting everyone know he was reporting in top shape; and when he was told he would not start, his response was that in D’Antoni’s system it didn’t matter who starts. Even though some fans chanted his name in the opening game, he did not inflame the situation. Since the new regime came in, Marbury has said all the right things. Even D’Antoni said so. http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3727039

    The main focus is on Marbury, but look what management did. The Knicks seemed to have an exciting team that had a shot at the playoffs. Now they do not have enough guards and they have no centers (Lee is a forward).

    There are several reputations at stake here.

  34. jon abbey

    on an unrelated note, our old buddy Balkman with a DNP-CD last night. with Chris Anderson back, it looks like there’s no room for Balkman in Denver’s 9 man rotation.

  35. Ted Nelson

    IS,

    I’m glad I amuse you. You’re still talking about Stephon Marbury’s character, and I still couldn’t care less about it. The issue is not about Marbury, there doesn’t seem to be much of any disagreement there.

    Stephon Marbury’s been in tip-top shape all but maybe 2 seasons of his career, and he wasn’t particularly out of shape in those years. I don’t see why he wouldn’t have gotten in shape this season if the Knicks had sat him down, told him he wasn’t in the plans, and told him they were going to come to an agreement that would be best for everyone. People respond to incentives, and Stephon Marbury would have had millions of incentives to be in shape.

    “Would he have been better off using Marbury until they could trade him and/or if they intended on buying him out right from the start, at least by being up front about it sooner than the first real game?”

    I don’t think they had any idea what they were going to do with him. If they did this would not be happening. I don’t think there was any Walshtoni conspiracy against Marbury.

    The only conspiracy I could honestly see is James Dolan saying that Stephon Marbury will not be traded, he will not by cut/bought-out, and he will not be played. Walsh was quoted as saying more or less this, which seems both completely irrational for any GM to say about any player and out of step with Walsh’s image. I don’t know if the order came all the way from the owner not to play him, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if James Dolan loves seeing Marbury get tarred and feathered.

    “Dolan made a point of treating Isiah with respect even though many people were really angry with Thomas. ”

    I think Isiah got much the same treatment as Marbury. They both failed in the past, but do you really have to keep them around as punishment for their past sins? Dolan should just pay the men and accept responsibility for his own mistakes in hiring both.

  36. Ted Nelson

    As far as the contractual issue… someone mentioned before that in order for the player to be sent home he had to consent. No idea if that’s the case. Does seem like most people would consent to being told they’ll make millions to stay home and play with their kids.

  37. jon abbey

    “Dolan should just pay the men and accept responsibility for his own mistakes in hiring both.”

    again, this is a two way street. if they want to be paid for doing nothing, they can negotiate the contract down somewhat, as Antonio McDyess just did.

  38. Ted Nelson

    Jon,

    I was sort of undecided on how D’Antoni handled the situation initially. I asked myself, did he really sit Anthony Roberson down and tell him he wasn’t in the rotation? Personally I’d like to think I would maintain communication with all my players, but if he didn’t sit Roberson down why should Steph be treated any differently? He still came across a little weaselly in interviews, and constantly contradicted himself. “I don’t want to talk about Marbury”, but… I’ll feed you sound bites about him every day anyway. “I respect Stephon so much that I didn’t want to embarrass him by not playing him enough, so instead I didn’t play him at all and don’t respect him enough to even let him know he wasn’t going to play.”

    Without knowing the details of anything, I don’t want to rush to judgement. However, this last move is pretty questionable, IMO, and casts D’Antoni is a bad light. He’s taking a strange, round-about approach to trying to get Marbury suspended:

    “I don’t need to say exactly what happened. My intention was for him to play, he didn’t, and so that’s where we are and that’s how we’ll go forward.”

    If you intend to play someone and you’re the coach you usually just tell them to play. Coaches usually have that kind of authority. What kind of coach isn’t in a position to tell a player to play. I intend to do a lot of things that I never get around to doing… if you’re going to do something, do it. Marbury has said repeatedly that he’s not losing a cent and if the coach calls his number he’s on the court. Trying to out-smart him in a sneaky way reflects very poorly on D’Antoni until more facts are revealed.

    “That might have come up somewhere,” D’Antoni said. “I’m not going to get into the details of ‘he said, I said, that said.’ You know the premise of the story, and you’ll just have to kind of pick it up. Like I said, it’s a regrettable situation for everybody, and we’ll work it out hopefully this weekend and then move on.”

    By not calling his name during a game and trying to get him suspended because you intended to play him, then refusing to reveal the details of what happened, you’re feeding all of the ‘he said, I said, that said.’

    I think the worse thing the Knicks can do here is not just play this straight. What free agent wants to sign with an organization that’s not straight with its players?

  39. Ted Nelson

    Jon,

    That was to your previous comment.

    “Dolan should just pay the men and accept responsibility for his own mistakes in hiring both.”
    again, this is a two way street. if they want to be paid for doing nothing, they can negotiate the contract down somewhat, as Antonio McDyess just did.

    I don’t know the details, but of all the relevant actors Dolan’s the last one I would vouch for. And that’s saying something.

  40. Ted Nelson

    Also, McDyess took an excessive discount because he was in no position to bargain: he was in a situation where he was either going to be a) miserable in Dnever, b) suspended without pay for not reporting, or c) take a nice little multi-million dollar package to leave.

    That’s a loaded example, it’s the equivalent of saying that a guy with a guaranteed contract who is cut coming out of training camp is paid in full so Marbury should be paid in full. Marbury’s made it clear that it’s more important to him to collect every cent than to spare himself from going through this ordeal.

  41. Ben R

    Ted – I completly agree. D’Antoni has failed to play it straight with Marbury or the media. People are quick to point out all of Marbury’s flaws and there are many but no matter how Marbury acts or has acted it does not excuse the way D’Antoni has mishandled and exacerbated an already volitile situation.

    I am angry at Marbury, we could really use him right now but I am also angry at D’Antoni for allowing the situation to arise. They have pushed and pushed Marbury and have not given him a good chance to save face so he is trapped by his own foolish pride. If they treated him better in the begining he would not feel that playing now is caving to the administration, if they had offered to buy him out when he had lots of options before he was, in his mind, publicly humiliated by the Knicks he might have taken it. Now he feels publicaly slighted and the only way he takes a buyout or helps improve the situation is if the Knicks allow him to save face.

    I have a child and I learned early on that the best way to handle my daughter when we hit an impass is to allow her to back down without her losing face. If I just push and push until I break her will no one wins. Its the same with Marbury if the Knicks just give him a lifeline and allow him to “win” this argument we might be able to buy him out peacefully, but they have made this a shoving match and now it might be too late to end it well.

  42. jon abbey

    also, Ted, I don’t see why Marbury should be treated any differently from Roberson. if he wanted to know his role and he had gone and asked D’Antoni after the first game (or even at halftime of the first game), I’m sure he could have gotten some sort of clarity on the situation. Marbury is likening this to a marriage, but it’s not, he’s an obscenely well paid employee and the least he can do as a professional (one who’s being paid more than Kobe, more than LeBron, more than Duncan) is to remain ready to play whenever the coach wants to use him. agreeing to play basketball for a quarter of million dollars a game means you sign away your professional pride and do as the coach tells you.

    not that it matters much, but someone should note how funny it is that the standard fine is 1/110 of a season for each game. NY is about as likely to play 110 games this year (including preseason) as I am to get some minutes filling in for Nate.

    again, I hope D’Antoni recorded at least the pre-Piston conversation.

  43. jon abbey

    Marbury’s made it clear that it’s more important to him to collect every cent than to spare himself from going through this ordeal.

    I don’t think this is true, he supposedly offered to take $1M less in the last week or two and was turned down.

    it’s a negotiation, if he offered to take a $4 or $5M cut, thus agreeing to accept $16 or $!7M for playing hard in preseason and flying around with the team for a month or so, I’m sure Dolan and Walsh would sign off on that in a second. and if he was a free agent and he was half as good as he thinks he still is (which I tend to doubt, but you never know), I’m sure he could sign with any number of teams eager to have him destroy their locker room.

    also, people say that D’Antoni didn’t really clean the slate on Marbury, but I think he did, and he made a basketball decision. since then, I think Marbury is the one holding the grudge. he remembers D’Antoni coming to Phoenix and dumping him a year later. well, it was a basketball decision then (one of the best of the last decade in the league), and it’s a basketball decision now. you’d think one of the three highest “professionals” in the world might understand that, but he doesn’t, and he doesn’t have any outside advisors, as we’ve discussed.

  44. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    on an unrelated note, our old buddy Balkman with a DNP-CD last night. with Chris Anderson back, it looks like there’s no room for Balkman in Denver’s 9 man rotation.

    I watched until halftime, just hoping for an appearance.

  45. AlbanyKnicks

    also, Ted, I don’t see why Marbury should be treated any differently from Roberson. if he wanted to know his role and he had gone and asked D’Antoni after the first game (or even at halftime of the first game), I’m sure he could have gotten some sort of clarity on the situation. Marbury is likening this to a marriage, but it’s not, he’s an obscenely well paid employee and the least he can do as a professional (one who’s being paid more than Kobe, more than LeBron, more than Duncan) is to remain ready to play whenever the coach wants to use him. agreeing to play basketball for a quarter of million dollars a game means you sign away your professional pride and do as the coach tells you.
    not that it matters much, but someone should note how funny it is that the standard fine is 1/110 of a season for each game. NY is about as likely to play 110 games this year (including preseason) as I am to get some minutes filling in for Nate.
    again, I hope D’Antoni recorded at least the pre-Piston conversation.

    Why blame Marbury?

    He has done what he was TOLD to do. When he was TOLD he was a sub, he accepted it. When he was TOLD his role would be to not play and not even dress, he kept his mouth shut.

    Marbury keeps on saying he would play if he were told to play. D’Antoni could have put him in the game in Milwaukee. He could have told Marbury to dress in Detroit and then played him. D’Antoni could have asked MSG TV to be “miked up”, so there would be no ambiguity and there would be clear evidence if Marbury were to refuse a direct order to play. Why doesn’t D’Antoni just put him into a game? By all accounts, Marbury played credibly when he came off the bench during pre-season.

    I do not see any evidence that Marbury is not ready to play or that Marbury cut out of practices without permission. I assume that D’Antoni held special practices for the new players. He could have used those practices to re-integrate Marbury into the lineup. If D’Antoni really wanted Marbury to be his starter for the rest of the season, why did he not prepare via practices and team meetings the team and Marbury for that?

    The Knicks really need a guard. They can still put Marbury into the game and then we will see if he is a professional or not. If he fails to perform, then the Knicks would have cause to withhold salary. People do not have to like each other in order to play basketball together. Marbury did a lot of questionable things in the past, but everyone was supposed to have a clean slate this season.

    Maybe the Knicks think he would destroy their locker room if he played, so management is trying to make Marbury look bad, but they are not doing a very good job.

    On a different but related subject, I think the next discussion should be about how the salary cap creates a lot of craziness. Has anyone ever come up with a good alternative?

  46. Frank
    also, Ted, I don’t see why Marbury should be treated any differently from Roberson. if he wanted to know his role and he had gone and asked D’Antoni after the first game (or even at halftime of the first game), I’m sure he could have gotten some sort of clarity on the situation. Marbury is likening this to a marriage, but it’s not, he’s an obscenely well paid employee and the least he can do as a professional (one who’s being paid more than Kobe, more than LeBron, more than Duncan) is to remain ready to play whenever the coach wants to use him. agreeing to play basketball for a quarter of million dollars a game means you sign away your professional pride and do as the coach tells you.

    not that it matters much, but someone should note how funny it is that the standard fine is 1/110 of a season for each game. NY is about as likely to play 110 games this year (including preseason) as I am to get some minutes filling in for Nate.
    again, I hope D’Antoni recorded at least the pre-Piston conversation.

    Why blame Marbury?
    He has done what he was TOLD to do. When he was TOLD he was a sub, he accepted it. When he was TOLD his role would be to not play and not even dress, he kept his mouth shut.
    Marbury keeps on saying he would play if he were told to play. D’Antoni could have put him in the game in Milwaukee. He could have told Marbury to dress in Detroit and then played him. D’Antoni could have asked MSG TV to be “miked up”, so there would be no ambiguity and there would be clear evidence if Marbury were to refuse a direct order to play. Why doesn’t D’Antoni just put him into a game? By all accounts, Marbury played credibly when he came off the bench during pre-season.
    I do not see any evidence that Marbury is not ready to play or that Marbury cut out of practices without permission. I assume that D’Antoni held special practices for the new players. He could have used those practices to re-integrate Marbury into the lineup. If D’Antoni really wanted Marbury to be his starter for the rest of the season, why did he not prepare via practices and team meetings the team and Marbury for that?
    The Knicks really need a guard. They can still put Marbury into the game and then we will see if he is a professional or not. If he fails to perform, then the Knicks would have cause to withhold salary. People do not have to like each other in order to play basketball together. Marbury did a lot of questionable things in the past, but everyone was supposed to have a clean slate this season.
    Maybe the Knicks think he would destroy their locker room if he played, so management is trying to make Marbury look bad, but they are not doing a very good job.
    On a different but related subject, I think the next discussion should be about how the salary cap creates a lot of craziness. Has anyone ever come up with a good alternative?

    Wow — is AlbanyKnicks auditioning to be Steph’s agent?
    To be honest, I think D’Antoni has far more credibility than Marbury. In a selfish man’s game, where players hold out all the time for more $$ and the teammates look the other way, it is amazing to me how completely Marbury’s “teammates” have divorced themselves from him and are not coming to his defense at all. Do you see a single player standing up for him? I think it is highly likely that Marbury essentially refused to enter the game — not while the game was actually going on, but before the game when he probably told D’Antoni he wasn’t going to play.

    I used to be a Marbury fan — appreciated what he did for the community etc — but this is a case of a selfish childish player and a selfish childish owner just butting heads in the public eye. No one wins here and everyone looks the worse for it. If Dolan were truly interested in what’s best for the team he’d sign off on just releasing him. And if Walsh really has complete control of basketball matters, he’d do the same.

  47. Owen

    “on an unrelated note, our old buddy Balkman with a DNP-CD last night. with Chris Anderson back, it looks like there’s no room for Balkman in Denver’s 9 man rotation.”

    “I watched until halftime, just hoping for an appearance.”

    That’s hilarious. I did the same thing.

    I will say this, in short minutes, I don’t think Chris Anderson has made much of a case so far that he is better than Balkman. Balkman has played well. Strong on court/off court, decent box score stats. They should be using him more.

  48. Ted Nelson

    “also, Ted, I don’t see why Marbury should be treated any differently from Roberson.”

    I believe this was exactly what I said: ” if he didn’t sit Roberson down why should Steph be treated any differently?”

    Again, I’m not defending Marbury. There doesn’t have to be one right guy and one wrong guy. I just don’t like the way D’Antoni has approached the suspension. If you’re the coach and you intend to put someone in the game, do it. If Steph is to be believed that he never literally said I will not go in the game (and I tend to believe it since his #1 priority is clearly money), D’Antoni is playing a weird game by accusing him of insubordination for not showing enthusiasm about the opportunity to play. I suspect the players union will not let this fly, as it sets a precedent where a coach can suspend a player whenever he feels like it:

    “Hal Biagas, an NBA Players’ Association attorney advising Marbury, told ESPN.com on Friday: ‘We feel the discipline imposed by the Knicks is baseless. We plan to file a grievance.’”

    —————————————————

    “again, I hope D’Antoni recorded at least the pre-Piston conversation.”

    It would be interesting if he did to see the actual truth of what’s going on, I sort of doubt it though. It’s got to turn off a free agent to go to a coach who might be recording every conversation for the opportunity to suspend players he doesn’t like, I doubt D’Antoni would risk his reputation for Marbury. It would be sort of pathetic if he did wear a wire… why not just call the guy’s number during a game? If he refused to enter the game then there would be no doubt; however, I think D’Antoni knows that Steph would not refuse.

    ———————————————–

    “someone should note how funny it is that the standard fine is 1/110 of a season for each game.”

    They also practice every day, work out all offseason, play in training camp, young guys play in summer league. I don’t find it that unreasonable.

  49. Ted Nelson
    Marbury’s made it clear that it’s more important to him to collect every cent than to spare himself from going through this ordeal.

    I don’t think this is true, he supposedly offered to take $1M less in the last week or two and was turned down.
    it’s a negotiation, if he offered to take a $4 or $5M cut, thus agreeing to accept $16 or $!7M for playing hard in preseason and flying around with the team for a month or so, I’m sure Dolan and Walsh would sign off on that in a second. and if he was a free agent and he was half as good as he thinks he still is (which I tend to doubt, but you never know), I’m sure he could sign with any number of teams eager to have him destroy their locker room.
    also, people say that D’Antoni didn’t really clean the slate on Marbury, but I think he did, and he made a basketball decision. since then, I think Marbury is the one holding the grudge. he remembers D’Antoni coming to Phoenix and dumping him a year later. well, it was a basketball decision then (one of the best of the last decade in the league), and it’s a basketball decision now. you’d think one of the three highest “professionals” in the world might understand that, but he doesn’t, and he doesn’t have any outside advisors, as we’ve discussed.

    I didn’t hear those reports, but I still think my point is valid. Considering that the veterans’ minimum is around $1 million, he’d still be getting his money if he takes a $1 million cut and catches on somewhere else.

    I realize that it’s a negotiation. I don’t think Dolan has the bargaining power to ask him to take a $5 million dollar paycut. Maybe in the offseason when he could get the MLE or follow Childress and Jennings to Europe Steph could have been convinced to take up to a $7 or 8 million paycut: another team’s MLE plus a discount for receiving his money up front. Now they’ve waited months too long, he’s looking at a vets’ minimum salary at best, and the global economy’s likely in a recession… In a negotiation where one side’s saying $1 million and the other is saying $5 million, assuming both have equal bargaining power what’s the logical conclusion? $5 million????? Or $3 million?

    Steph has lost a good deal of bargaining power by “refusing” to play for the Knicks: before it looked like a situation where he was completely content and the Knicks didn’t really want him around. Now he’s going to have to play ball a little (either literally or figuratively…) since he doesn’t want to be there.

    D’Antoni didn’t dump Marbury in Phoenix, Bryan Colangelo did. I have heard they had a rocky relationship there, but I think it’s hard to say who is holding a grudge and who is not without knowing the two men personally and maybe even without knowing their inner thoughts. Marbury publicly said he was willing to come off the bench and do whatever was asked of him in preseason, so as an outside observer I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s held a grudge the whole time (he very well might have, but didn’t seem to show it to us). Now, yeah, he’s got a grudge against D’Antoni and isn’t making any attempts to hide it. I think he should have played when given the chance just as I think he should have pushed for a buyout earlier, but I’m not Stephon Marbury.

    ” you’d think one of the three highest “professionals” in the world might understand that, but he doesn’t, and he doesn’t have any outside advisors, as we’ve discussed.”

    Yeah, it’s not like he’s got a union rep working on his case or anything… I’m sure he also handles all his money personally rather than work with financial advisors. Maybe the guy just sits at home and talks to himself all day, but I sort of assume he’s got some people around him. Maybe not the best people, but I don’t know.

    Don Nelson also didn’t play Al Harrington 40 mpg and let him do “whatever he wants” for basketball reasons, but I don’t see Harrington getting hammered on this board for publicly disagreeing and being “too stupid” to understand that he’s not LeBron freaking James.

  50. jajay

    thank you, no 1 realy knows the behind the scenes stuff, to this
    day I don’t know exactly what happened prior to the phoenix game last
    year that torpedoed the season. but he will end up being the poster child on why you should have an agent, at the end of the day the knicks who are under no pressure to win right now have the upper hand.
    from a purely business decision he is ruining not only his trade
    value but his brand in the media cap of the world.

  51. Frank

    Assuming the Knicks buy Steph out and he’s a FA starting Monday, who in their right mind would sign him? I think the only team that has enough veteran leadership to shut him up would be the Spurs, and I can’t imagine Popovich opening them up for anything like him. Miami with a rookie coach? no way. He may get his freedom and then sit around doing nothing for the rest of his “career”.

  52. nj hoop

    It’s just sad that all were talking about is the d-bag Marbury on this forum. Somehow, some way it always comes back to Steph. Meanwhile, this team may be heading into the abyss with injuries, heart conditions, etc. leaving us shorthanded and 2 new players who seem completely clueless on the court. Check out the schedule for December, we may never even sniff .500 again this season. I know it’s all about cap space, but I was hoping we wouldn’t become a joke again this season.

  53. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    It’s just sad that all were talking about is the d-bag Marbury on this forum. Somehow, some way it always comes back to Steph. Meanwhile, this team may be heading into the abyss with injuries, heart conditions, etc. leaving us shorthanded and 2 new players who seem completely clueless on the court. Check out the schedule for December, we may never even sniff .500 again this season. I know it’s all about cap space, but I was hoping we wouldn’t become a joke again this season.

    GREAT COMMENT! How much more time are we going to waste on Stephon Marbury? There’s a bunch of things to talk about. The injury to Robinson. The return of Jeffries. The three new guys. Mobley’s health. The team’s good fortune early. D’Antoni’s offense. D’Antoni’s defense. Crawford’s lack of defense on the above play.

    It seems senseless to waste any time on Marbury.

  54. Italian Stallion

    I still don’t see this situation as being as complicated as everyone is making it out to be.

    The Knicks should calculate the present value of his contract minus the amount he can sign for with another team (Dallas?). That way, Steph gets every penny he deserves and the Knicks get a discount equal to the present value of his services they won’t receive.

    Both sides have already discussed this once. So I have to suspect that someone (or both) did not agree to what IMHO is OBVIOUSLY the FAIR DEAL.

    I don’t know what Marbury is worth outside the Knicks, but based on his commentary, I suspect he is the bigger problem in the negotiations because:

    1. Inititally he said he wanted every penny

    2. He changed that demand to 1M less, but that’s obviously not the right amount because the present value of his contract is automatcially less than what he owed because he gets the money up front and can earn interst on it.

    3. Marbury has no agent that can negotiate a fair deal for him (and explain it to him) or talk to other teams to determine what his fair market value is now so it can be part of the negotiation process.

    The rest is an issue of whether this should have been addressed before the season started and whether D’Antoni screwed up after that.

    It’s still my opinion that the Knicks wanted to maximize Steph’s value. So they NEEDED for him to come to camp in top shape, work hard, play some pre season games etc… to prove his worth around the league and maximize their chances to either trade him or reduce the cost of a buyout. I see nothing wrong with that strategy from a business perspective. ZERO! NADA!

    IMO, the only debateable part of this is D’Antoni’s decision to not use him at all and then reverse course when they were shorthanded. However, I honestly think that was a basketball decision. He decided that the long term interests of the Knicks were best served by severing ties with Steph totally and developing the existing team chemistry etc… intead of using Steph for awhile and then starting all over.

  55. BiggieSmalls

    Lets say Marbury makes 1.8 mil per month for the next 12 months for a total of 21.6 mil.

    discounted at 5% the present value of that future stream is 21 mil.

    so it’s only a 600K difference.

  56. George Jetson

    “2. He changed that demand to 1M less, but that’s obviously not the right amount because the present value of his contract is automatcially less than what he owed because he gets the money up front and can earn interst on it.”

    We’re in the middle of a global recession and interest rates are close to zero. This is not necessarily the case. The Dow has fallen about 25% in the past 3 months, so it’s hard to say Marbury would have more money at the end of the season with an average investment. Very likely he’d have less money. If deflationary pressure persists, then the present value of money is less than what it would be with slight inflation (the normal market situation).

    I don’t know if this is playing a role in the negotiations, but it should be.

    “So they NEEDED for him to come to camp in top shape, work hard, play some pre season games etc… to prove his worth around the league and maximize their chances to either trade him or reduce the cost of a buyout.”

    He comes to camp in shape pretty much every year, this is what I don’t understand. If I’ve posted as “Ted Nelson” the last 10 times is the logical assumption that I’ll post this as “Ted Nelson” or “George Jetson?”
    You don’t have to lie to get him in shape, and I really don’t think the reason he got into shape was to impress Walshtoni…

  57. Italian Stallion

    Lets say Marbury makes 1.8 mil per month for the next 12 months for a total of 21.6 mil.
    discounted at 5% the present value of that future stream is 21 mil.
    so it’s only a 600K difference.

    I’ll assume your calcs are correct, but he’s also going to get a new salary and 600K is most of the amount he is willing to give up. So 1M can’t be right.

  58. Italian Stallion

    “He comes to camp in shape pretty much every year, this is what I don’t understand. If I’ve posted as “Ted Nelson” the last 10 times is the logical assumption that I’ll post this as “Ted Nelson” or “George Jetson?” You don’t have to lie to get him in shape, and I really don’t think the reason he got into shape was to impress Walshtoni…”

    IMO, the basic premise of your argument is flawed.

    It assumes that Marbury will continue to behave like a professional FOR THE KNICKS after he finds out he’s not in the plans but before he actually plays in the pre-season and proves his worth.

    IMO, that’s a very poor assumption to make based on his history of being a self centered pain in the ass, leaving the team last year when told he wouldn’t start, and his very actions with the team this year when benched and asked to play (stopped scrimmaging, stopped shooting around, didn’t play when the team was short handed).

  59. George Jetson

    He doesn’t have to behave like a professional FOR THE KNICKS, and he certainly isn’t at the moment. He has a huge incentive to play well to sign his next contract and/or impress a team he’s traded to. This incentive would only grow if you told him before the season that he’s out of here ASAP, because out of here means in a position to prove himself. People respond to incentives.

    “IMO, that’s a very poor assumption to make based on his history of being a self centered pain in the ass, leaving the team last year when told he wouldn’t start, and his very actions with the team this year when benched and asked to play (stopped scrimmaging, stopped shooting around, didn’t play when the team was short handed).”

    There are plenty of people in amazing shape who are self-centered pricks. Stephon Marbury has always been in great shape and he has never been a team player, it follows that he was not getting in shape for the team but for himself. He sees himself as a “max-player” and “the best PG in the NBA.” He was very anxious to prove that this offseason, and I don’t think it had anything to do with his goodwill towards the NYK organization.

    I see no flaws in my logic, but thanks for the insult.

  60. Italian Stallion

    He doesn’t have to behave like a professional FOR THE KNICKS, and he certainly isn’t at the moment. He has a huge incentive to play well to sign his next contract and/or impress a team he’s traded to. This incentive would only grow if you told him before the season that he’s out of here ASAP, because out of here means in a position to prove himself. People respond to incentives.
    “IMO, that’s a very poor assumption to make based on his history of being a self centered pain in the ass, leaving the team last year when told he wouldn’t start, and his very actions with the team this year when benched and asked to play (stopped scrimmaging, stopped shooting around, didn’t play when the team was short handed).”
    There are plenty of people in amazing shape who are self-centered pricks. Stephon Marbury has always been in great shape and he has never been a team player, it follows that he was not getting in shape for the team but for himself. He sees himself as a “max-player” and “the best PG in the NBA.” He was very anxious to prove that this offseason, and I don’t think it had anything to do with his goodwill towards the NYK organization.
    I see no flaws in my logic, but thanks for the insult.

    George, you must be Ted, because only Ted would grasp at such straws just to have or continue an argument that is beyond silly.

    If you think he would have responded to incentives like a normal professional (or did it all for himself), then why didn’t he?

    After finding out he was not in the plans, he had every incentive to continue scimmaging/practicing with the team and then to play when given the opportunity. It would have demonstrated his “newly found” professionalism to the rest of the league and that he could compete in regular season games at a very high level.

    The fact that he did the complete opposite pretty much demonstrates that starting with the assumption that he would have behaved like a professional would have been wildly flawed.

    He may have shown up in shape, but the Knicks needed him to behave, actually play well etc…

  61. AlbanyKnicks

    Last night I watched Lakers-Mavericks. Nancy Lieberman reported that the Mavs are very interested in Marbury. It was also said that other teams were also interested in Marbury.

    In terms of supply and demand, we have a player who was just offered a starting job with the Knicks who can afford to play for a minimal expiring contract. There have been multiple injuries. Many teams need guards. Marbury will be in demand.

    Mike Breen was the announcer. The color announcers, Jeff Van Gundy and Marc Jackson, both backed Marbury. They made the point that there is a big difference between being told to play and being asked to play and that they should have told Marbury to play. They also made the point that Marbury had done everything he was told to do.

    On the half time show, the comment was, “Free Marbury.”

    At the New York Daily News, more people blame Knicks management than Marbury. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/index.html

    It is amazing how the Knicks are losing the PR battle as the team declines. Tonight could be interesting. What will happen if the Knicks get blown out?

    Can a salary cap expert explain the salary cap ramifications of the recent trades for next year? I think we may be under the cap. Also in terms of salary cap what happens if Mobley is physically unable to play?

  62. Ben R

    I think the argument that Marbury needed to come into training camp in shape is a flawed one. The point at which the Knicks had the most leverage in buying out Marbury was before training camp while he could still get real money from another team.

    If the goal was to release Marbury and save as much money as possible the Knicks should have started buyout negoiations in June. The problem is Walsh does not like buying out players and probably told D’Antoni to make it work. So instead of being upfront with Marbury they told him to come into camp in shape. Maybe it was so they could showcase him but that does not mean they should have lied.

    Even if the only way to get Marbury in shape for camp was to lie, which I do not think because Marbury has always been well conditioned, it still does not excuse the lie. The Knicks assumed Marbury would misbehave and treated him unfairly in anticipation of his meltdown, he only thing is he did not misbehave so it was in fact the Knicks acting unprofessionally not Marbury.

    This behavor by the Knicks set the table for Marbury’s refusal to play and his reaction is not surprising at all. I am not excusing him but as Thomas B said you cannot blame a snake for being a snake. No matter who’s fault this is the longer it drags out the worse the Knicks look and they need to bite the bullet and just give Marbury what he wants because the headache and bad pr is not worth the 2-3 million they might save by taking a hard line.

    Now lets get on to talking about the Knicks and their current problems; injuries, new players, etc.

  63. Gian Casimiro (SSoM)

    Can a salary cap expert explain the salary cap ramifications of the recent trades for next year? I think we may be under the cap. Also in terms of salary cap what happens if Mobley is physically unable to play?

    The recent trades brought in people with two year contracts so, as it stands, only Marbury’s 22 mil, Roses’ 7.6m, Lee’s 1.8m, Roberson’s 800k, and Robinson’s 2m come off the cap and that still leaves the team roughly 10 mil over the cap. That doesn’t factor in possible contract extensions for Robinson and Lee either.

    The only way Mobley’s salary comes off the cap is if he accepts a medical retirement.

  64. Z

    “How much more time are we going to waste on Stephon Marbury? There’s a bunch of things to talk about. The injury to Robinson. The return of Jeffries. The three new guys. Mobley’s health. The team’s good fortune early. D’Antoni’s offense. D’Antoni’s defense. Crawford’s lack of defense on the above play. It seems senseless to waste any time on Marbury.”

    Sorry KB, but there’s too much good stuff coming out to ignore (in favor of Tim Thomas “needing to lose a few pounds”…)

    Marbury to D’Antoni: “You’re not the expert on what’s good for my career!”

    Marbury on the age old question At What Price Freedom?: “I made a million dollar offer for my freedom. My offer’s on the table.”

    Eat shit and die, Patrick Henry!

  65. Ben R

    One possible option next summer is if we see a free agent we want we can set up a sign and trade and use our expiring contracts to make an attractive offer.

    For example if it looks for sure that Boozer is leaving Utah we could arrange a sign and trade with Utah giving them a big contract or two; Q Rich, Harrington, etc and a young prospect; Chandler, Gallinari a resigned Lee or Robinson and maybe be able to land one of our big free agents next year and still have enough cap room to go after LeBron in 2010.

    It gives us options next year and in 2010.

  66. Italian Stallion

    “I think the argument that Marbury needed to come into training camp in shape is a flawed one. The point at which the Knicks had the most leverage in buying out Marbury was before training camp while he could still get real money from another team”

    Ben,

    I can’t agree with this. Marbury hardly played at all last year because of personal issues (death etc…) and then had season ending surgery.

    Why would another team trade anything of value for him or pay him more before seeing how much (if any) game he still had left?

    He was scouted throughout pre season because a lot of teams knew he was likely to be bought out or become available via trade. I read multiple newpaper reports where team scouts said they were looking at him and were impressed that he hadn’t lost a step. I think his pre season performance almost certainly enhanced his marketability (for himself and the Knicks).

    IMO, it’s how things were handled afterwards that’s debateable. Of course if you think trying to maximize his value was a mistake to begin with and that they should have just worked something out beforehand just avoid this kind of thing, that’s another story.

  67. Italian Stallion

    For what it’s worth, Walsh is supposed to address the media on the Marbury issue before the start of today’s game.

    So perhaps he’ll talk about whether or not he and D’Antoni have been and remain on the same page all along, the status of any potential buyout, etc…

  68. blackriderx

    I don’t think it’s a waste of time discussing Marbury. This is a look into how Knicks management handle things.

    I side with Marbury and that’s mainly because management has been handling things so poorly.

  69. Z-man

    Q should keep his mouth shut. First, he was one of the “veterans” who felt Steph should not be in the rotation in the first place, so he shouldn’t be pissed that Steph does not want to play now. Second, what has Q done to justify either his contract or his spokemanship status, other than stink up the court 4 out of every 5 games? The same goes for Malik.

    The bottom line for me is, when you tell someone he has a clean slate, he comes in and does everything asked of him, he outplays every guard on the team in preseason within the system you are playing, and then you freeze him out completely (and spin it to look like it was based on the wishes of a bunch of scrubs you call veteran spokespeople,) and refuse to release him so he could qiuickly take his baggage elsewhere, you shouldn’t be too surprised if he doesn’t all of a sudden become a rah-rah team guy when the going gets rough.

    I honestly cant imagine the Steph situation being butchered worse than it has been by D’Antoni. Again, I don’t blame Walsh because he has appeared puzzled by D’Antoni’s decisions on more than one occasion.

  70. 5x5

    I’ve been a Marbury fan since his days at Lincoln High, but it might be time for him to move to Italy. His reputation precedes him, so he’s 100% wrong even if he’s 33% right.

    Thomas B. – totally appropriate analogy. As another Brooklyn kid, I think it really sucks to see Steph fail; even though he’d still be a snake, I thought he could shed his skin.

  71. Gian Casimiro (SSoM)

    Second, what has Q done to justify either his contract or his spokemanship status, other than stink up the court 4 out of every 5 games?

    I’m curious to hear what you think Marbury has done to justify his contract during his time with the Knicks.

    I’d expect better production from someone with Q’s contract but I’d expect playoff wins from someone with Marbury’s.

    … he outplays every guard on the team in preseason within the system you are playing …

    We don’t know what he’s done in scrimmages, but if you’re judging from preseason, he disappeared when he started for Crawford against Boston and was outplayed by both Duhon and Nate throughout the preseason.

  72. jon abbey

    no game thread for Jamal’s return to the Garden?

    the GS announcers said last night “he hit nine game-winning shots as a Knick”, they were so impressed. how many did he miss, 30? 40? 50?

  73. Ben R

    IS – If the Knicks’ goal was to trade Marbury then having him play through preseason was an important way to increase his trade value.

    But if buying him out and saving the most possible money was the ultimate goal why not approach Stephan in June and simple say “we are going in a different direction would you like us to buy you out now or would like a chance to showcase yourself in preseason to increase your value”, then the Knicks could have a buyout prearranged and simply let Stephan play in preseason to audition for a job or buy him out earlier which ever he prefers. That way the Knicks are honest and straightforward, no one gets their pride hurt, and Marbury has an actual incentive to expediate the buy out process.

    So if they were in fact looking to buy him out they went about it all wrong and if they were trying increase his trade value then paying more for a buy out is a reasonable price to pay for trying trade him before buying him out. The Knicks can’t have it both ways keep him to trade, screw his chances of getting a long contract and still expect a bargin on the buyout.

    On top of all that the Knicks failed to be honest with Marbury which is inexcusable even if there was logic behind the deception.

  74. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    no game thread for Jamal’s return to the Garden?

    the GS announcers said last night “he hit nine game-winning shots as a Knick”, they were so impressed. how many did he miss, 30? 40? 50?

    Done. Game thread is up.

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