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Tuesday, October 21, 2014

Off-Season Musings 2.0

If you missed Off-season Musings 1.0 check it out.

Again, this is a quasi-open thread to discuss potential losses and additions. Same ground rules as last time, yeah?

1. Let’s stay away from pure rosterbation, shall we? With little cap space for major free agent signings and few assets worth trading, Chris Paul is not walking through that door. It’s not impossible I suppose, but the Knicks aren’t well positioned for that kind of deal.

2. Check out your idea before posting. You can check trades against the CBA any number of places, including realgm. You can also find player contract and team salary cap information at basketball-reference.

POSSIBLE LOW-KEY ADDITIONS — PRO PLAYERS

It’s always hard to anticipate these kinds of moves without inside information. We don’t know exactly what the future holds for New York’s free agents, Martin, Smith, Prigioni, and Copeland. Regardless, the Knicks still need a backup for Tyson Chandler. Last off-season’s plan was clearly to throw bodies at the position. Unfortunately, those bodies were brittle and old. So Chandler still ended up playing too many minutes, until he got injured, sick, and generally worn down. Enter Roy Hibbert, and it just got ugly. I will admit to feeling like scooping up older bigs with skill last off-season was moneyballing some market inefficiency. Mayhap we look at a few younger bodies this off-season?

Here are a few under-the-radar names I’m keeping an eye on. They don’t address every need–certainly not Melo’s* alleged demand for an additional scorer–but I’m concentrating on potential bargains.

*I usually turn a jaundiced eye to any “reporting” from the Post. So I don’t know how accurate Melo’s alleged demand is. I feel fairly confident, however, that someone at the Post believes New York needs another “scorer”. In my humble opinion the Knicks could use, as much as anything, for Tyson Chandler to develop a 15-18 foot jumper the same way Udonis Haslem did. 

Brandan Wright is a solid two-way rotational big (not a small forward though) who probably carries too little bulk to ever be more than an 18-20 minute, matchup dependent 4 or 5. He may never play 82 games. So even though there is a lot to like, his price tag might stay reasonable. Here’s a great write up on Wright at MavsMoneyBall. Sure, Dallas likes him but if they’re serious about getting in on Dwight Howard they may have to let Wright walk even if its for reasonable money.

Al-Farouq Aminu is only 22. I’m not sure how much bloom is left on that rose though. The Pelicans failed to pick up his option, despite the fact that he seems to have come into his own as a one-dimensional (elite) rebounding forward. The Pels need offense and they have already invested a high draft pick (Xavier Henry, plus a lot of other backup bodies) at his position. They like Aminu, and may not let him walk unless someone overpays. Given his limited skill set though, no one may back a dump truck filled with cash up to his door. New Orleans could probably keep him for reasonable money, but with another high draft pick on the way the numbers game may not favor Aminu staying in New Orleans. For the right price Aminu could provide New York the flexibility to go big without having to play Melo at the 3. He’d generally allow Woodson to keep a rebounder on the floor when Chandler is resting.

Shaun Livingston is a fairly safe bet to return to Cleveland. In fact, I’m not even sure he could play for New York since he can’t shoot the three. Still, I’ve always liked Livingston. He’s a solid defender, excellent passer and rebounder. He also had a good season backing up Kyrie Irving. The second-tier guard market is a buyer’s market this off-season. So pair Livingston’s injury history with Irving’s, and the Cavs may consider finding a backup with less injury risk (not to mention more scoring punch). For his part, Livingston won’t be able to command much, which may well lead him back to Cleveland.

 

142 comments on “Off-Season Musings 2.0

  1. Hubert

    Fine open up a more relevant thread as soon as I post in the other one! Sorry for reposting:

    Hubert:
    So I need some to tell me if this is crazy:

    I keep reading that New Orleans wants to get rid of Eric Gordon’s contract but no one wants him because he hasn’t played.He’s apparently unmovable and a huge risk.But I wouldn’t mind taking it.

    Gordon will make $15 mil/year for 3 years, total of $45 mil.

    Ryan Anderson $8.5 mil/year for 3 years, total of $25.5 mil.

    That’s over $70 mil for 3 years.

    Amar’e makes $45 mil over years. They would save $25 million by picking him up.Plus we could throw in our annual $3 million.And we can throw in whoever we draft with the 24th pick.

    Is that crazy?Would New Orleans literally not touch Amar’e with a 20 foot pole even if it saved them $25 million?And am I selling Ryan Anderson way too short?

    I would love to see that trade go through.Which probably means it’s crazy.

  2. Vinny L.

    After that Indiana series, when Cope/Felton/Shump lost minutes to PRIGiphony & Jason “are you” KIDDing me (until Indiana pushed Wood to the brink of elimination)…If Knicks keep Woodson, then in my mind pushing PRIGiphony & KIDDing completely out of the rotation becomes top priority #1 for Knick fans.

    I like Larkin or Nate Wolton… Larkin more because he’s quicker and Woodson would probably hear howls from fans and the press if he tried to sabotage this young man by relegating him to the bench. Since we’re going to be living and dying with ISO ball with Melo & JR, it would behoove Knick management to go after young OFFENSIVE REBOUNDING bigs, and to draft an extra sharp shooting PG who can pass and create off the dribble! Providing Melo & JR an extra option whenever they decide to stop thinking about themselves and start trusting teammates.

    Here’s a list of cheap free agent bigs:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8589693/nba-free-agents-2013-2014

  3. Vinny L.

    @Ruru

    I respect Melo as a man and I respect his talents, but aren’t we hurting him by coddling him by not bringing up his assist numbers and comparing to Lebron?

    If the rumors are true then Melo, Woodson and Jim Boeheim are making excuses for Melo’s poor performance in the closing minutes of 4th quarter game 6 Indiana. What I don’t like about this is Melo/Wood/Boeheim are deflecting criticism from Melo’s poor performance by sneak dissing his teammates that he refused to pass the ball to in that 4th quarter (Felton, Copeland, Shump!)

    Again, Shump almost single handedly defeated the referees in game 6 (3rd quarter) with a barrage of 3’s that tied the game up- before he got taken out the game by Wood! That wasn’t Melo that made game 6 close, that was SHUMP! (And Cope)

    A man who has the will, determination and fire to defy the referee intentions is a hard man worth keeping. We didn’t see Shump or Felton come back into that game until the end of the 4th quarter…

    Cope hits two 3’s in the 4th quarter and gets taken out the game!!! When they could’ve played Cope/Felton/Melo/JR (which worked well in game 5). I’m using that scenario assuming that Shump would’ve fouled out in the beginning of the 4th if we kept him in the game being that the ref’s were targeting him.

    Bricks and ISO ball with Melo and JR ensued! Which was a common pattern in all of the Knick losses to Indiana.

  4. Hubert

    Vinny L.:

    Again, Shump almost single handedly defeated the referees in game 6 (3rd quarter) with a barrage of 3?s that tied the game up- before he got taken out the game by Wood! That wasn’t Melo that made game 6 close, that was SHUMP! (And Cope)

    Anthony had 39 points with a .600 TS% playing with a torn labrum. Without him, Shump’s 3 three’s just would have cut the lead to 15.

  5. Hubert

    By the way the better the Pacers play against the Heat, the more embarrassed I am for thinking the Knicks underachieved.

    Even Spoelstra is starting to go with bigger lineups (like Anderson and Bosh) for longer stretches.

    I think a lot of, myself included, didn’t give the Pacers enough credit.

  6. Z

    @1 Hubert– I don’t think you are crazy for wanting to diversify the money currently invested in Amar’e. I think the Knicks should consider any and all options on that front.

    But for New Orleans to want to make that trade I think they would need to have a targeted FA in 2015, otherwise there isn’t much point to it. They don’t stand to save $25 million from the deal because the CBA has a salary floor that is 90% of the cap. So N.O. will need to spend that money on SOMEBODY. So, unless they really want the player attached to Amar’e’s contracts, I think they would stay away from a trade like that.

  7. MKinLA

    Watching the Pacers punish us down-low was such a fascinating example of NBA evolution. The SSOL Suns embarrassed slower teams by running PnRs, forcing bad switches and exploiting them with dribble drives / kickouts to shooters.

    Teams responded by getting faster, smaller, better-shooting players, both to defend against that strategy and to replicate it. Hence the evolution of the stretch 4 and, now the stretch 5.

    What the Pacers are showing is that that trend may have gone too far. By loading up on small, quick players, Pacers’ opponents have left themselves vulnerable to being bullied in the post by big, strong 4s and 5s. Watching Hibbert rebound what seems like half his team’s missed shots has been incredible.

    My guess is that we are now going to see an increase in the perceived value of true centers, with teams starting to reach for more project 5s in the draft and free agency in an effort to mimic/contain Hibbert’s effectiveness.

  8. flossy

    Vinny L.:
    After that Indiana series, when Cope/Felton/Shump lost minutes to PRIGiphony & Jason “are you” KIDDing me (until Indiana pushed Wood to the brink of elimination)…If Knicks keep Woodson, then in my mind pushing PRIGiphony & KIDDing completely out of the rotation becomes top priority #1 for Knick fans.

    Prigiphony? Are you serious? He was one of the best back-up PGs in the NBA last year, and the team won like a million straight games when he entered the starting lineup. He played even better in the playoffs and should have taken all of Kidd’s and many of JR’s minutes.

    If he doesn’t re-sign, we’re screwed–no 20 year old rookie PG is going to fill his shoes.

  9. MKinLA

    Oh, and, bonus observation for football fans:

    We’ll see a similar phenomenon when some team figures out that all of the defenses that have got small / quick to contain the spread option are vulnerable to a power-running game.

  10. flossy

    MKinLA:
    Watching the Pacers punish us down-low was such a fascinating example of NBA evolution. The SSOL Suns embarrassed slower teams by running PnRs, forcing bad switches and exploiting them with dribble drives / kickouts to shooters.

    Teams responded by getting faster, smaller, better-shooting players, both to defend against that strategy and to replicate it. Hence the evolution of the stretch 4 and, now the stretch 5.

    What the Pacers are showing is that that trend may have gone too far. By loading up on small, quick players, Pacers’ opponents have left themselves vulnerable to being bullied in the post by big, strong 4s and 5s. Watching Hibbert rebound what seems like half his team’s missed shots has been incredible.

    My guess is that we are now going to see an increase in the perceived value of true centers, with teams starting to reach for more project 5s in the draft and free agency in an effort to mimic/contain Hibbert’s effectiveness.

    Small ball certainly has its drawbacks, especially when you’re the Knicks and half your small players aren’t actually quick and/or can’t throw the ball in the ocean for game after game. If Tyson had been himself, JR hadn’t had a meltdown and Kidd didn’t go scoreless for nine straight games, the outcome of our series might have been very different, and by the same token, I’d wait to see who comes out of the East before declaring a paradigm shift.

    But there’s obviously more than one way to skin a cat, and if you have large, talented two-way players at the 4 and 5, that’s a competitive advantage than can be exploited for sure…

  11. johnno

    On another note, how funny is it that the day after LeBron says that “some players” (but not him of course) use flopping as a tactic, he gets fined $5,000 for diving to the floor like he got hit by a truck when David West kind of bumped into him? He’s one of the biggest floppers in the NBA and the league doesn’t notice it until he points out that some other guys are flopping? So, in one game, LeBron gets called for 6 fouls, a technical foul and a flop? David Stern must be on vacation or something. He would NEVER let that happen. My prediction — in the next game, Hibbert will get tossed from the game for making a face at LeBron…

  12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I still can’t believe that Gordon got a max deal. That is absolutely insane.

  13. DRed

    I’d forgotten who Eric Gordon was. Maybe Amare doesn’t have the worst contract in the NBA.

  14. Frank

    johnno:
    He’s one of the biggest floppers in the NBA and the league doesn’t notice it until he points out that some other guys are flopping?So, in one game, LeBron gets called for 6 fouls, a technical foul and a flop?

    Yeah that was ridiculous. He seemed SHOCKED! SHOCKED I SAY! that he might actually not get the benefit of every single 50/50 call. If he got called for the types of BS offensive fouls Melo gets called for 1-2x/game, he’d probably boycott the next game.

    Re: pickups for next year — I highly doubt we are making any significant trades at all. I think any thought of trading Amare and especially Tyson is just a pipe dream, and after what we’ve seen from Shump, I don’t think trading him should even be a consideration unless it’s a trade-up in talent (very unlikely).

    I think our mini-MLE is going to go in some way to retain both Cope and Prigs. I think JR will resign for a 4 year Early Bird contract with a player ETO after 2 years (is that legal?). Which means that our only additions will be veteran minimum guys and our #24 draft pick. The good news is that we will have a bunch of roster spots to fill — 1 will go to the pick, and then there will be 3 other spots available, unless by the grace of God maybe Jason Kidd retires.

    I’d love to see us pick up 1 veteran (like 30-32 years old, not 40) big, 1 young big, another 3/D wing guy, and a penetrating PG. With the draft, I’d just go BPA. Very unlikely that we take anyone that has no hope of contributing right away. I think Withey or one of the wings (Rice, Bullock, etc.) would be nice.

    Possibilities for vet’s minimum bigs (in no order)
    1) Henry Sims
    2) Jerome Jordan
    3) Dejuan Blair (might command more than minimum)
    4) K-Mart
    5) Jermaine O’Neal
    6) Nazr Mohammed

    3-D guys
    1) Pietrus
    2) Dahntay Jones
    3) Keith Bogans

    PGs
    1) Telfair
    2) Livingston
    3) Derek Fisher. Just…

  15. Hubert

    Z:
    @1 Hubert– I don’t think you are crazy for wanting to diversify the money currently invested in Amar’e. I think the Knicks should consider any and all options on that front.

    But for New Orleans to want to make that trade I think they would need to have a targeted FA in 2015, otherwise there isn’t much point to it. They don’t stand to save $25 million from the deal because the CBA has a salary floor that is 90% of the cap. So N.O. will need to spend that money on SOMEBODY. So, unless they really want the player attached to Amar’e’s contracts, I think they would stay away from a trade like that.

    Good points.

  16. Hubert

    Everyone wants Kidd to retire but personally I’d rather see him back on a 15-18 minute a night limit, plus never playing on back to backs. The amount of minutes we gave him this season was ridiculous and it’s no wonder he ran out of steam.

  17. thenamestsam

    flossy: Small ball certainly has its drawbacks, especially when you’re the Knicks and half your small players aren’t actually quick and/or can’t throw the ball in the ocean for game after game.If Tyson had been himself, JR hadn’t had a meltdown and Kidd didn’t go scoreless for nine straight games, the outcome of our series might have been very different, and by the same token, I’d wait to see who comes out of the East before declaring a paradigm shift.

    But there’s obviously more than one way to skin a cat, and if you have large, talented two-way players at the 4 and 5, that’s a competitive advantage than can be exploited for sure…

    Well said. I think if you look at Miami a huge difference between them at their best and them at 75% of their best (which is what we’ve predominantly seen in these playoffs) is Battier’s shooting. When he’s knocking down 3s like he was in the finals last year, they’re virtually unbeatable, and he shot pretty well all year. When he does that with the functional level of defense he plays, it’s extremely difficult to punish them enough inside to make up for the way they will dominate you on the offensive end. But Battier can’t buy a make right now (under 24% for the playoffs on 3s) and he’s not even looking for his shot in recent games and because of that they’re not reaping the natural offensive advantages of small ball to the extent that they need to. And consequently we have a close series on our hands.

  18. Vinny L.

    @Hubert

    I’m not taking anything from Melo. We need him. But if these reports are true (which I say you should be skeptical of the Post) then media and fans should not let Melo low-key diss his team mates and then hide his hand and say: oh that was just Boeheim taliking, that wasn’t me.

    Shump and Cope played just as hard as Melo with the talent/minutes they were given. There’s no denying what Shump did in that 3rd quarter game 6!

  19. KnickfaninNJ

    I think we have to worry more about losing Prigioni than Smith. He’s very underpaid currently and I am not sure the Knicks can afford to pay him what he’s worth. Does anyone think Livingston, Fisher or Telfair would be better than him as backup point guard? If not, can you think of anyone better that’s might get paid less than $2M?

  20. yellowboy90

    I am very intrigued by Aminu. I wouldn’t mind him getting a roster spot to be trained into a defensive guy.

  21. er

    Vinny L.: @HubertI’m not taking anything from Melo. We need him. But if these reports are true (which I say you should be skeptical of the Post) then media and fans should not let Melo low-key diss his team mates and then hide his hand and say: oh that was just Boeheim taliking, that wasn’t me. Shump and Cope played just as hard as Melo with the talent/minutes they were given. There’s no denying what Shump did in that 3rd quarter game 6!

    How is it a low key diss? Shump sucked offensively most of the series and copeland didnt play which was no fault of his own. Tyson Chanldler is the person you are looking for with the low key disses.

  22. DCrockett17 Post author

    MKinLA:

    What the Pacers are showing is that that trend may have gone too far. By loading up on small, quick players, Pacers’ opponents have left themselves vulnerable to being bullied in the post by big, strong 4s and 5s. Watching Hibbert rebound what seems like half his team’s missed shots has been incredible.

    Even if the Pacers win I’m not sure I’m willing to go all the way there. I would disagree that team undervalue true centers. They’re a fine thing to have. Just like lefty starters that give you 200+ innings.

    Nobody’s turning down Hibbert-like centers. There just aren’t a ton with his skill set. The colleges just don’t develop big men.

  23. DCrockett17 Post author

    Hubert:
    Everyone wants Kidd to retire but personally I’d rather see him back on a 15-18 minute a night limit, plus never playing on back to backs.The amount of minutes we gave him this season was ridiculous and it’s no wonder he ran out of steam.

    That’s prooooobably what’s going to happen. That’s on Woody. He kept Prigioni stapled to the bench when Felton got hurt, and Kidd was playing well.

  24. stratomatic

    MKinLA:
    Watching the Pacers punish us down-low was such a fascinating example of NBA evolution. The SSOL Suns embarrassed slower teams by running PnRs, forcing bad switches and exploiting them with dribble drives / kickouts to shooters.

    Teams responded by getting faster, smaller, better-shooting players, both to defend against that strategy and to replicate it. Hence the evolution of the stretch 4 and, now the stretch 5.

    What the Pacers are showing is that that trend may have gone too far. By loading up on small, quick players, Pacers’ opponents have left themselves vulnerable to being bullied in the post by big, strong 4s and 5s. Watching Hibbert rebound what seems like half his team’s missed shots has been incredible.

    My guess is that we are now going to see an increase in the perceived value of true centers, with teams starting to reach for more project 5s in the draft and free agency in an effort to mimic/contain Hibbert’s effectiveness.

    I agree with this analysis.

    Ideally I think you want a Hibbert caliber C (at least the way he’s playing right now on both sides) teamed with a stretch PF, but there’s no question that this Pacer team is demonstrating the flaw in playing a PF at the C and a SF at the PF. It may help on offense, but they simply demolish you on the boards and have enough inside scoring to make you pay for that small lineup.

  25. chrisk06811

    I agree with AJJA, which is also the best Steely Dan album. Minimums to Jeffries, Jorts, and whoever was the MVP of the Belgian league this year.

  26. DRed

    The Pacers have a good team and Roy Hibbert is playing really well, but if JR Smith or Jason Kidd hit some open shots nobody would be talking about NBA evolution right now.

  27. Brian Cronin

    4 year Early Bird contract with a player ETO after 2 years (is that legal?)

    No. Which is why the rumors about the four year deal are so perplexing. I completely understand him signing a two-year Early Bird deal with the second year being an option, but a four year deal? He’d be locked into the Early Bird price for three years. I mean, don’t get me wrong, that’s all he could get on the open market at this point, but

    A. Some part of him has to think “I can actually keep up my high level of play all through the playoffs next year”
    B. The whole “the Knicks will give me a raise once they have my Bird Rights” thing
    and
    C. “Even if I have am not a world beater, the Knicks will always at least pay me $5 million, so I am not risking anything by signing a short term deal”

    So I really don’t see why he would ever sign a four-year Early Bird deal. Unless I guess he just really wants to help the Knicks out (I guess his brother getting a multi-year deal would also shed some light on his thinking).

  28. Brian Cronin

    We’ll see a similar phenomenon when some team figures out that all of the defenses that have got small / quick to contain the spread option are vulnerable to a power-running game.

    Didn’t we sort of already see that when Harvin went down and suddenly the Vikings went nuts with the running game?

  29. Frank

    @Brian –
    the reasons I came up with the 4 year deal with ETO after the 2nd year are these:
    1) Early Bird deals must have at least 2 years with no options on those first 2 years (or else everyone would sign for 1 year and then go for Full Bird the next year)
    2) ETO after year 2 (after 2014-15 season) allows JR the opportunity to go for full Bird as early as possible while not playing for <$3MM/y again in 13-14. In addition, if he opts out, his cap hold (I think) will still reflect his Early Bird which makes his # much better after the 14-15 season when Tyson/Amare/Melo all expire and we will finally have some flexibility.
    3) JR wants to sign a 4 year deal because that basically means he has 4 full years guaranteed if he wants them (ie. loss of skill, injury, etc.).
    4) Knicks sign a 4 year deal because.. well, we probably shouldn't especially since I don't think he will get a full MLE offer. So maybe a 3 year deal with the 3rd year being a player option.

  30. Brian Cronin

    Oh, I didn’t know the second year had to be no option. Then yes, three years makes perfect sense in that regard (with the third year being the option year).

    But I still don’t get four years, because only your final year can be a player option. So it seems weird that he’d be willing to lock himself into three years.

  31. yellowboy90

    Brian Cronin: Didn’t we sort of already see that when Harvin went down and suddenly the Vikings went nuts with the running game?

    Thinking of Harvin, to take it a step further just go Urban Meyer with UF and Bama with Saban.

    However, if you have a big man that defends like a big man should and shoots you can beat a team like Indy.

  32. EB

    I don’t think anyone undervalues a strong post center, who is there except Gasol, Hibbert, Howard, and idk Pekovic? Most are paid near the max and those who are strong and tall enough to work the post generally lack the quickness and speed to cover the pick and roll, a huge liability in today’s nba.

  33. MKinLA

    I guess the question is whether Miami erred in going into the playoffs with only Bosh as a “true” big man (and even Bosh is arguably a 4).

  34. DRed

    MKinLA:
    I guess the question is whether Miami erred in going into the playoffs with only Bosh as a “true” big man (and even Bosh is arguably a 4).

    They won a title without one last year and won 66 games in the regular season without one, so I would say no. Good big men are the hardest type of player to find, because their just aren’t enough enormous people who are also athletic enough to play in the NBA. It really just highlights how incredibly good Lebron James is. Although I guess you could argue that he’s actually a dominant big man (he’s only slightly smaller than Karl Malone, for example), just a very unorthodox one.

  35. BigBlueAL

    The thing about this Heat-Pacers series is how amazing both teams have been on offense. I believe the Pacers are averaging a bit over 111pts/100 possessions with the Heat averaging just slightly less.

  36. Juany8

    I harped on this all last year while Miami was winning their championship, their small ball only worked so well because they ran into teams that had no chance of punishing them for it. KG is a jump shooter, as was Brendan bass, and the Celtics purposely give up offensive boards to get back. The thunder were playing Perkins, who has no offensive talent, can’t rebound well, and is too slow e at guarding the pick and roll, and ibaka, who can only shoot jumpers.

    The Pacers (and the Knicks with a healthy chandler) were supposed to have the quickness to at least slow down Miami while still playing with a 7 footer who can dominate the boards. The Knicks were supposed to be more explosive on offense, but injuries to Melo and chandler killed some of that, as well as the fact that JR imploded and Kidd was replaced by a 50 year old look a like from the local gym. I’m still curious to see how well a core of Melo and Chandler can do if the team has some decent luck with health going into the playoffs next year.

  37. Hubert

    Another thing about Miami:

    Ray Allen is ice cold.

    Shane Battier is ice cold.

    Dwyane Wade is physically deteriorating.

    I think Bosh is nursing an injury as well.

    I may be crazy but I think we would’ve been tied 2-2 with them, too. They don’t look like the team that won 66 games. Even if they survive this series, I like San Antonio in the Finals.

  38. MeloDrama

    Hubert: So I need some to tell me if this is crazy:

    I keep reading that New Orleans wants to get rid of Eric Gordon’s contract but no one wants him because he hasn’t played.He’s apparently unmovable and a huge risk.But I wouldn’t mind taking it.

    Gordon will make $15 mil/year for 3 years, total of $45 mil.

    Ryan Anderson $8.5 mil/year for 3 years, total of $25.5 mil.

    That’s over $70 mil for 3 years.

    Amar’e makes $45 mil over years. They would save $25 million by picking him up.Plus we could throw in our annual $3 million.And we can throw in whoever we draft with the 24th pick.

    Is that crazy?Would New Orleans literally not touch Amar’e with a 20 foot pole even if it saved them $25 million?And am I selling Ryan Anderson way too short?

    I would love to see that trade go through.Which probably means it’s crazy.

    NOLA wouldn’t do it for either straight up. Anderson is probably their second most valuable asset (since right now Gordon is in limbo). If they wanted to dump Gordon I think they’d literally do that, dump him for expirings, before taking a risk on Amar’e.

    I follow both teams (I live in NOLA) and I’d love that from the Knicks perspective and be absolutely horrified from the NOLA one.

  39. ruruland

    Hubert:
    Another thing about Miami:

    Ray Allen is ice cold.

    Shane Battier is ice cold.

    Dwyane Wade is physically deteriorating.

    I think Bosh is nursing an injury as well.

    I may be crazy but I think we would’ve been tied 2-2 with them, too.They don’t look like the team that won 66 games.Even if they survive this series, I like San Antonio in the Finals.

    The Knicks were far better matched offensively against Miami than Indiana.

    The 3-1 regular season wasn’t much of a fluke, imo. 4-out is the best way to beat an all out blitz team. It’s like a spread offense with a bunch of clever quick-hitters against a heavy pressure team.

    After the last win, Spoelstra talked about actually having to change his defense against *us* in a post-season match-up.

    The Heat’s strength as a team — offense and defense — is their ability to create bad shots and turnovers out of pressuring pick and roll

    If you actually compared the Knicks regular season half-court offense to Miami’s, I’m quite sure the Knicks was superior. (I’ll check Synergy).

    So yeah, Indiana has an entirely different way of beating the Heat’s ball pressure (if they are smart and patient) as does San Antonio.

    If you actually think about it, Miami is kind of a front-running, gimmicky playoff team.

    They’ve needed Lebron to not just be the best player in the league, but GOAT, to advance last year.

    Their four straight wins against OKC was impressive. But the Thunder are an undisciplined, high-turnover offensive team without a good pnr point gurd.

  40. ruruland

    MeloDrama: NOLA wouldn’t do it for either straight up. Anderson is probably their second most valuable asset (since right now Gordon is in limbo). If they wanted to dump Gordon I think they’d literally do that, dump him for expirings, before taking a risk on Amar’e.

    I follow both teams (I live in NOLA) and I’d love that from the Knicks perspective and be absolutely horrified from the NOLA one.

    Do you think Chandler and Anthony Davis would work? I kind of do.

  41. ruruland

    I’ll be interviewing Chris Copeland, Brandon Bass and a few others in about three weeks (hopefully Melo and JR after that)….

    Let me know if you have any suggestions for questions or things you’d like to know.

  42. ruruland

    Obviously I’m going to talk to Brandon Bass about how to defend Melo, the Knicks, the rivalry, their future, things of that nature.

  43. MeloDrama

    Juany8:
    I harped on this all last year while Miami was winning their championship, their small ball only worked so well because they ran into teams that had no chance of punishing them for it. KG is a jump shooter, as was Brendan bass, and the Celtics purposely give up offensive boards to get back. The thunder were playing Perkins, who has no offensive talent, can’t rebound well, and is too slow e at guarding the pick and roll, and ibaka, who can only shoot jumpers.

    The Pacers (and the Knicks with a healthy chandler) were supposed to have the quickness to at least slow down Miami while still playing with a 7 footer who can dominate the boards. The Knicks were supposed to be more explosive on offense, but injuries to Melo and chandler killed some of that, as well as the fact that JR imploded and Kidd was replaced by a 50 year old look a like from the local gym. I’m still curious to see how well a core of Melo and Chandler can do if the team has some decent luck with health going into the playoffs next year.

    Yeah, the Knicks were nowhere near healthy, and it was their core guys that hampered them, not the army of olds at the end of the bench. A lot of teams dealt with it this postseason, just one of those things.

  44. MeloDrama

    ruruland: Do you think Chandler and Anthony Davis would work? I kind of do.

    I would absolutely love Chandler next to Davis, but given his age and injury history I dunno what deal would work for NOLA. If they flipped Gordon for him, well swell … but then from the Knicks’ perspective I don’t do it at all. They’re built to win now and Chandler IMO is the more valuable player when both are healthy.

  45. ruruland

    MeloDrama: I would absolutely love Chandler next to Davis, but given his age and injury history I dunno what deal would work for NOLA. If they flipped Gordon for him, well swell … but then from the Knicks’ perspective I don’t do it at all. They’re built to win now and Chandler IMO is the more valuable player when both are healthy.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine

  46. MeloDrama

    I was just saying that as a duo, currently, I think Chandler and Davis could do work.

  47. maxwell_3g

    Hubert:
    Fine open up a more relevant thread as soon as I post in the other one!Sorry for reposting:

    Hubert. we canot take on any more salary as configured. so even if the pelicans wanted amare (which they don’t) we could not swing that trade unless we added more contracts going to the pelicans. amare is not being traded unless there is another contract as bad as amare’s

  48. ruruland

    Robin Lopez was better at the rim than Chandler last year, creating a far higher percentage of his own shots:

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Robin%20Lopez

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyson%20Chandler

    Lopez had an oreb% of 12.4, Chandler had an oreb % of 14.1

    Lopez had lower to %, higher assist %, and much higher usage.

    Chandler is certainly better defensively, even as rim protector (despite Lopez’ higher rate of blocked shots) and much better in terms of overall activity. I think he plays with much more spirit alongside another active, long interior defender, and he and Davis could really be something.

    Starting lineup next year: Gordon, Shumpert, Melo, Anderson, Lopez

    Bench: *Copeland, *Smith, *Prigioni, Kidd, Camby, *Martin, pick

  49. ruruland

    MeloDrama: It just sent me to the trade machine screen and asked me to set one up. I know the teams could make something work salary wise, but I don’t think either side really pulls the trigger on anything with the names mentioned already.

    New Orleans sends Gordon, Lopez, Anderson

    Knicks send Chandler, Felton, Novak, Richardson, White. (perhaps adding the pick if necessary).

  50. ruruland

    New Orleans next year: Davis, Chandler, (Porter, Oladipo), Vasquez, UFA SG/SF (Aminu)

  51. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland:
    Robin Lopez was better at the rim than Chandler last year, creating a far higher percentage of his own shots:

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Robin%20Lopez

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyson%20Chandler

    Lopez had an oreb% of 12.4, Chandler had an oreb %of 14.1

    Lopez had lower to %, higher assist %, and much higher usage.

    Chandler is certainly better defensively, even as rim protector (despite Lopez’ higher rate of blocked shots) and much better in terms of overall activity. I think he plays with much more spirit alongside another active, long interior defender, and he and Davis could really be something.

    Starting lineup next year: Gordon, Shumpert, Melo, Anderson, Lopez

    Bench: *Copeland, *Smith, *Prigioni, Kidd, Camby, *Martin, pick

    I want it to happen so you can explain why the Knicks are a 45-win team with His Precious still on the books. Please. I want this so badly.

  52. JK47

    ruruland:
    Robin Lopez was better at the rim than Chandler last year, creating a far higher percentage of his own shots:

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Robin%20Lopez

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyson%20Chandler

    Lopez had an oreb% of 12.4, Chandler had an oreb %of 14.1

    Lopez had lower to %, higher assist %, and much higher usage.

    Chandler is certainly better defensively, even as rim protector (despite Lopez’ higher rate of blocked shots) and much better in terms of overall activity. I think he plays with much more spirit alongside another active, long interior defender, and he and Davis could really be something.

    Starting lineup next year: Gordon, Shumpert, Melo, Anderson, Lopez

    Bench: *Copeland, *Smith, *Prigioni, Kidd, Camby, *Martin, pick

    Put me down as a “hell no” for the Robin Lopez/Ryan Anderson frontcourt idea. The Knicks don’t need to make their defense WORSE than it already is.

  53. MeloDrama

    ruruland:
    Robin Lopez was better at the rim than Chandler last year, creating a far higher percentage of his own shots:

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Robin%20Lopez

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyson%20Chandler

    Lopez had an oreb% of 12.4, Chandler had an oreb %of 14.1

    Lopez had lower to %, higher assist %, and much higher usage.

    Chandler is certainly better defensively, even as rim protector (despite Lopez’ higher rate of blocked shots) and much better in terms of overall activity. I think he plays with much more spirit alongside another active, long interior defender, and he and Davis could really be something.

    Starting lineup next year: Gordon, Shumpert, Melo, Anderson, Lopez

    Bench: *Copeland, *Smith, *Prigioni, Kidd, Camby, *Martin, pick

    I think the defensive drop off would be too great. Lopez outperformed his contract and I’m glad Demps signed him, but he’s too slow to do the things Chandler can defensively. He and Anderson as a regular front court would get torched defensively, plus it drops Melo into a role as a regular 3 (which I think negates a lot of his strengths).

    As for the Pelicans, you do that deal if you think you’re ready to win now, which they aren’t and probably won’t be until Chandler will be slowing down.

  54. ruruland

    JK47: Put me down as a “hell no” for the Robin Lopez/Ryan Anderson frontcourt idea.The Knicks don’t need to make their defense WORSE than it already is.

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: I want it to happen so you can explain why the Knicks are a 45-win team with His Precious still on the books. Please. I want this so badly.

    8-0 w/Kenyon Martin starting over Chandler. 12-4 w/out Chandler on the season.

  55. MeloDrama

    Note: I also didn’t see that Gordon was involved as well. The Pelicans wouldn’t do that deal. They’ve got tons of cap room so clearing space isn’t an issue.

  56. ruruland

    JK47: Put me down as a “hell no” for the Robin Lopez/Ryan Anderson frontcourt idea.The Knicks don’t need to make their defense WORSE than it already is.

    The defense would not be good.

    The offense could be…… wow.

    If NY is Gordon’s elixir, he can be a great offensive player as he showed much of his first few years in the league.

    FWIW, the Knicks were better on defense last year when Chandler was on the bench.

    Do you think the Knicks would be better served to try to overcome Indiana with Chandler getting torched and begging for double teams against Hibbert, or would the Knicks be better served to say, try a 5-out offense with Melo at the 4, Anderson at the 5?

  57. MeloDrama

    ruruland:
    8-0 w/Kenyon Martin starting over Chandler. 12-4 w/out Chandler on the season.

    It’s an eye-opening stat, but I wouldn’t read much into it, for the same reason I don’t read much into our record with or without Amare. I feel like we won most of those non Chandler games by figuring out to start Prigs and load up on smalls. I figured we lost most of those Amar’e games because Shump and Kidd were shooting like a combined 50 or something (as in, like, 20 percent each) in that frame.

  58. ruruland

    MeloDrama:
    Note: I also didn’t see that Gordon was involved as well. The Pelicans wouldn’t do that deal. They’ve got tons of cap room so clearing space isn’t an issue.

    They want to rid themselves of Gordon’s contract, no?

  59. MeloDrama

    ruruland: The defense would not be good.

    The offense could be…… wow.

    If NY is Gordon’s elixir, he can be a great offensive player as he showed much of his first few years in the league.

    FWIW, the Knicks were better on defense last year when Chandler was on the bench.

    Do you think the Knicks would be better served to try to overcome Indiana with Chandler getting torched and begging for double teams against Hibbert, or would the Knicks be better served to say, try a 5-out offense with Melo at the 4, Anderson at the 5?

    I think the Knicks are better served with a healthy Chandler negating some of Hibbert’s strengths and allowing us to go small and kill them in turnover differential and drop the Melo hammer when its time. Chandler moving like a glacier made us putty in Indiana’s hands.

    If anything that series teaches us what happens when you don’t have Chandler doing Chandler things. You get bludgeoned for going small. If he’s right and we compete on the boards (and Hibbert has to be more aware of him offensively) then I think that series could go much differently.

  60. MeloDrama

    ruruland: They want to rid themselves of Gordon’s contract, no?

    There’s talk that they might want to deal him, but they’re not anywhere close to being in a “throw away assets to dump him” mode. They’ve got a lot of cap room so the tax isn’t any kind of leverage against them. IMO they could dump him in a much softer way than dealing Anderson and Lopez along with him … his value is down, but he isn’t untradable.

  61. flossy

    ruruland:
    Robin Lopez was better at the rim than Chandler last year, creating a far higher percentage of his own shots:

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Robin%20Lopez

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyson%20Chandler

    Lopez had an oreb% of 12.4, Chandler had an oreb %of 14.1

    Lopez had lower to %, higher assist %, and much higher usage.

    Chandler is certainly better defensively, even as rim protector (despite Lopez’ higher rate of blocked shots) and much better in terms of overall activity. I think he plays with much more spirit alongside another active, long interior defender, and he and Davis could really be something.

    Starting lineup next year: Gordon, Shumpert, Melo, Anderson, Lopez

    Bench: *Copeland, *Smith, *Prigioni, Kidd, Camby, *Martin, pick

    No point in swapping one overpaid scorer who can’t stay healthy (Amar’e) for another one (Gordon). I’ll stick with the guy who played 700 minutes last year and was actually kind of awesome on top of having a buttload of playoff experience over the guy who played 1200 minutes (and 300 the year before that) and sucked balls, and has never played a minute in the playoffs.

    That leaves a straight up swap of Felton and Chandler for Anderson and Lopez and I’m fine with sticking with the former. Watching Melo/Anderson/Lopez go to work with no real starting PG if/when Gorden gets hurt does not appeal.

  62. MeloDrama

    FWIW I think Chandler and Melo is a perfect marriage, which is why I’ve always found it a little humorous that you’ve had Melo and Chandler fans waging war with one another here. Chandler’s ability to provide value though his defense and rebounding without commanding many shots is perfect with a volume scorer like Melo, who can in turn maximize his own value by playing the four and stretching the floor without much trade off.

    I don’t put much into defensive rate stats this season with Chandler, FWIW, because he had a very difficult job. Keeping the Knick defense around league average while playing with Melo at PF and a team full of PGs does more to solidify his value than detract from it.

  63. ruruland

    MeloDrama: It’s an eye-opening stat, but I wouldn’t read much into it, for the same reason I don’t read much into our record with or without Amare. I feel like we won most of those non Chandler games by figuring out to start Prigs and load up on smalls. I figured we lost most of those Amar’e games because Shump and Kidd were shooting like a combined 50 or something (as in, like, 20 percent each) in that frame.

    Yeah, I’ve looked into all of this.

    I absolutely think that in a vacuum, Chandler makes the Knicks better, is a better player than Kenyon Martin, etc.

    However…….

    I also think the following: Chandler’s defense is significantly overrated. His offense is also overrated. There were many players on the Knicks roster last year who excelled as the primary roll man and put up somewhat comparable efficiency numbers playing Chandler’s role.

    (Yes, I think Chandler is a net good player on both ends of the court)

    Think about this. Not only was the Knicks defense better last year with Chandler on the bench, it was much better with Martin at the center position than it was with Chandler, it was better with Copeland at center, it was better with Rasheed Wallace at center, and it was virtually equal with Melo and Kurt Thomas at center ( it was way worse with Amar’e at center).

    What does that tell me? That Chandler was a very low impact defensive player last season.

    If you’re arguing to keep Chandler is defense, I think you’re making a poor argument.

    He needs a real power forward beside him to really play like he’s capable, and the Knicks can’t be certain Amar’e will be that guy (if he could stay healthy, I’d be all for it).

    Does that make sense?

  64. ruruland

    MeloDrama: I think the Knicks are better served with a healthy Chandler negating some of Hibbert’s strengths and allowing us to go small and kill them in turnover differential and drop the Melo hammer when its time. Chandler moving like a glacier made us putty in Indiana’s hands.

    If anything that series teaches us what happens when you don’t have Chandler doing Chandler things. You get bludgeoned for going small. If he’s right and we compete on the boards (and Hibbert has to be more aware of him offensively) then I think that series could go much differently.

    But my larger point is that Chandler wasn’t doing Chandler things pretty much all season.

  65. ruruland

    MeloDrama:
    FWIW I think Chandler and Melo is a perfect marriage, which is why I’ve always found it a little humorous that you’ve had Melo and Chandler fans waging war with one another here. Chandler’s ability to provide value though his defense and rebounding without commanding many shots is perfect with a volume scorer like Melo, who can in turn maximize his own value by playing the four and stretching the floor without much trade off.

    I don’t put much into defensive rate stats this season with Chandler, FWIW, because he had a very difficult job. Keeping the Knick defense around league average while playing with Melo at PF and a team full of PGs does more to solidify his value than detract from it.

    I don’t think you’ve looked at the numbers in enough depth.

    Martin’s performance at center blew Chandler’s out of the water.

    That simply should not happen as a premier defensive player.

    None of the data, from +/- to the Sloan paper, shows us that Chandler was close to being a top defender last season.

  66. MeloDrama

    ruruland: Yeah, I’ve looked into all of this.

    I absolutely think that in a vacuum, Chandler makes the Knicks better, is a better player than Kenyon Martin, etc.

    However…….

    I also think the following: Chandler’s defense is significantly overrated. His offense is also overrated. There were many players on the Knicks roster last year who excelled as the primary roll man and put up somewhat comparable efficiency numbers playing Chandler’s role.

    (Yes, I think Chandler is a net good player on both ends of the court)

    Think about this. Not only was the Knicks defense better last year with Chandler on the bench, it was much better with Martin at the center position than it was with Chandler, it was better with Copeland at center, it was better with Rasheed Wallace at center, and it was virtually equal with Melo and Kurt Thomas at center ( it was way worse with Amar’e at center).

    What does that tell me? That Chandler was a very low impact defensive player last season.

    If you’re arguing to keep Chandler is defense, I think you’re making a poor argument.

    He needs a real power forward beside him to really play like he’s capable, and the Knicks can’t be certain Amar’e will be that guy (if he could stay healthy, I’d be all for it).

    Does that make sense?

    By the same token, according to http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK2.HTM, any Knick lineup good defensively with a significant sample size involves Chandler. There are a couple of really bad ones as well, so I’m not saying your stats are wrong, but IMO for NY to get to where they need to be with this group, they need a locked in Chandler manning center.

    I saw where we were something like 4th in D-rebounding percentage this season, playing small ball. I think he garners a lot of credit for that.

  67. ruruland

    MeloDrama:
    FWIW I think Chandler and Melo is a perfect marriage, which is why I’ve always found it a little humorous that you’ve had Melo and Chandler fans waging war with one another here. Chandler’s ability to provide value though his defense and rebounding without commanding many shots is perfect with a volume scorer like Melo, who can in turn maximize his own value by playing the four and stretching the floor without much trade off.

    See, I think this has become the accepted narrative when it is in fact the exact opposite.

    Chandler played much better last season when he was on the court with another true power forward (or a true center for that matter, pushing Chandler to pf).

    The only advantage of having Carmelo Anthony at the 4– yes is he a very good post defender but he’s a very poor help defender — is that it should give the Knicks small forward a huge mismatch, given that Melo is always going to draw the opponents best wing defender (with two exceptions, Boston and Miami, who play pf’s that can guard Melo)

    Now maybe Iman Shumpert is just about ready to be the guy who can take consistently take advantage of team’s that guard whim with a pf.

    But given that West was guarding him throughout the series, the Knicks really needed him to have a much better performance.

    THAT WAS THE MISMATCH.

    If Shumpert turns into that guy, then it will force teams to guard Melo with a PF, which for about 95 percent of the league is pretty much curtains, meaning they have to adjust by playing an inferior wing.

    But historically, Melo has performed better at sf on both ends of the court.

  68. ruruland

    MeloDrama: By the same token, according to http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK2.HTM, any Knick lineup good defensively with a significant sample size involves Chandler. There are a couple of really bad ones as well, so I’m not saying your stats are wrong, but IMO for NY to get to where they need to be with this group, they need a locked in Chandler manning center.

    I saw where we were something like 4th in D-rebounding percentage this season, playing small ball. I think he garners a lot of credit for that.

    Yes, the area where Chandler helped the Knicks the most was rebounding. Without question.

  69. DRed

    Figuring out the value of a player on defense is really complicated, and I don’t think anyone is close to doing it yet. Even that sloan paper, which is really interesting, has a lot of serious flaws.

  70. MeloDrama

    ruruland: I don’t think you’ve looked at the numbers in enough depth.

    Martin’s performance at center blew Chandler’s out of the water.

    That simply should not happen as a premier defensive player.

    None of the data, from +/- to the Sloan paper, shows us that Chandler was close to being a top defender last season.

    I haven’t, admittedly. But Martin also played a very small sample size in comparison to Chandler. I don’t think Martin as our starting center for 82 games lifts the Knick defense above what it was, but you could be right. We’ll just disagree for now on it. I feel like if you isolated anyone’s #’s over the stretch Martin played (in which the Knicks in general looked great and won most of their games), then their +/- #’s would look incredible.

    That’s not to say Martin had nothing to do with that stretch. Maybe he was the key ingredient. I’m just not comfortable with that sample size to draw that conclusion … and FWIW, the Knicks D carried that defensive performance into the postseason even with a gimpy Chandler. He couldn’t hold up offensively or on the boards, but we held it together defensively.

  71. ruruland

    That’s not say Melo/Chandler aren’t potentially a very good combination, but in order for it to work at a level good enough to consistently beat the top 4-5 teams, that third guy (either playing sf or pf) has to be able to take advantage.

    The Knicks were amazing with Chandler, Amar’e and Melo on the floor together last year. If Amar’e was guaranteed to play 60, 65 games, I wouldn’t be bringing up trades.

    Honestly, I think a lineup with Felton/Prigs, Shumpert, Melo, Amar’e, Chandler, with Amar’e staying healthy and Shumpert developing, is a 60 wins lineup.

    The lineup data for the big three was off the charts. And it was even better with Shump in limited minutes.

  72. MeloDrama

    ruruland:

    Chandler played much better last season when he was on the court with another true power forward (or a true center for that matter, pushing Chandler to pf).

    The only advantage of having Carmelo Anthony at the 4– yes is he a very good post defender but he’s a very poor help defender — is that it should give the Knicks small forward a huge mismatch, given that Melo is always going to draw the opponents best wing defender)

    Now maybe Iman Shumpert is just about ready to be the guy who can take consistently take advantage of team’s that guard whim with a pf.

    But given that West was guarding him throughout the series, the Knicks really needed him to have a much better performance.

    If Shumpert turns into that guy, then it will force teams to guard Melo with a PF, which for about 95 percent of the league is pretty much curtains, meaning they have to adjust by playing an inferior wing.

    Yeah, I mean we agree on most of this, we’re just drawing a few different conclusions from the data. IMO, Melo playing the 4 gives you one more shooter to pull a big from the lane, and he’s a good enough rebounder to keep things afloat on the rebounding front. That’s tremendously valuable and a big reason we were ranked where we were offensively.

    To maximize Chandler (and build an elite defense around him), yeah, we need a true PF. Melo at the 4 is a defensive liability, for all he adds offensively.

    But what I’m arguing is that Chandler’s presence is enough to keep us at least at league average. He’s big enough to deal one-on-one with an elite post player, and versatile enough to switch onto a smaller guy on the pick and roll for short bursts. His o-rebs also keep us competitive in that department.

    When he’s healthy, it’s hard for many teams to ‘really’ make us pay for playing small ball.

    Totally agree on the Shumpert point. He’s…

  73. ruruland

    DRed:
    Figuring out the value of a player on defense is really complicated, and I don’t think anyone is close to doing it yet.Even that sloan paper, which is really interesting, has a lot of serious flaws.

    Sure. But it also shows that guys like Howard, Hibbert, Sanders, Ibaka — guys conventionally thought of as great rim protectors– ahead of everyone else.

    It also placed guys conventionally thought of as poor rim protectors where they should be placed.

    My personal theory that I posted about throughout the year, which only has a little bit of statistical support, is that Chandler is significantly better with another true big man.

    I think he tends to gets the paralysis by analysis playing with tiny lineups, and becomes much more aggressive when he knows there is size behind him and on the weak/strong side.

    To me, on defense, he is a great power forward in a center’s body — a much bigger, longer version of Kenyon Martin in his day.

  74. MeloDrama

    ruruland: Sure. But it also shows that guys like Howard, Hibbert, Sanders, Ibaka — guys conventionally thought of as great rim protectors– ahead of everyone else.

    It also placed guys conventionally thought of as poor rim protectors where they should be placed.

    My personal theory that I posted about throughout the year, which only has a little bit of statistical support, is that Chandler is significantly better with another true big man.

    I think he tends to gets the paralysis by analysis playing with tiny lineups, and becomes much more aggressive when he knows there is size behind him and on the weak/strong side.

    To me, on defense, he is a great power forward in a center’s body — a much bigger, longer version of Kenyon Martin in his day.

    I agree. I suspect that’s Chandler just being aware that he’s the only back line of defense in those lineups. I don’t look at it as a drawback to his game, personally. You’re always more aggressive with backup.

  75. ruruland

    MeloDrama: I haven’t, admittedly. But Martin also played a very small sample size in comparison to Chandler. I don’t think Martin as our starting center for 82 games lifts the Knick defense above what it was, but you could be right. We’ll just disagree for now on it. I feel like if you isolated anyone’s #’s over the stretch Martin played (in which the Knicks in general looked great and won most of their games), then their +/- #’s would look incredible.

    That’s not to say Martin had nothing to do with that stretch. Maybe he was the key ingredient. I’m just not comfortable with that sample size to draw that conclusion … and FWIW, the Knicks D carried that defensive performance into the postseason even with a gimpy Chandler. He couldn’t hold up offensively or on the boards, but we held it together defensively.

    Right, again, I’m not arguing that Kenyon Martin is better than Tyson as a center, nor am I saying that the on/off stats are proof of that.

    What I am saying is that a premier defensive center should not have those on/off stats, nor would a team play better defense with a slight 6’9” player at center.

    Compare Chandler’s on/off with Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Dwight Howard,Duncan, Asik…. He’s simply not in their league… Hibbert has a good defensive back-up, so did Gasol.

    So it’s not that, either.

    But I do believe Chandler can be optimized as a an excellent defensive hybrid pf/center, my argument is the Knicks don’t have the personnel to do it unless Amar’e stays healthy .

    Amar’e is the only guy who provides size and a semblance of rim protection with great offense and usage to off-set Chandler.

    Martin wouldn’t work on offense.

  76. ruruland

    MeloDrama: I agree. I suspect that’s Chandler just being aware that he’s the only back line of defense in those lineups. I don’t look at it as a drawback to his game, personally. You’re always more aggressive with backup.

    Of course.

    But guys like Hibbert, Howard, Gasol, Duncan, Asik — those guys anchor defenses with their ability to contest and block shots at the rim without fouling.

    It doesn’t matter who you play around them, those guys are going to guard them rim. I’m saying Chandler isn’t one of those players, which changes the way you build a team.

  77. ruruland

    flossy: No point in swapping one overpaid scorer who can’t stay healthy (Amar’e) for another one (Gordon).I’ll stick with the guy who played 700 minutes last year and was actually kind of awesome on top of having a buttload of playoff experience over the guy who played 1200 minutes (and 300 the year before that) and sucked balls, and has never played a minute in the playoffs.

    That leaves a straight up swap of Felton and Chandler for Anderson and Lopez and I’m fine with sticking with the former.Watching Melo/Anderson/Lopez go to work with no real starting PG if/when Gorden gets hurt does not appeal.

    My suggestions are all upside deals.

    Anderson, Gorden, Lopez, Melo, Shumpert can be off the charts good offensively, far more diverse and balanced in a playoff situation.

    I’m saying that if Gorden returned and even improved upon what he was prior to injury, you’re going to get way more offensive value from those lineups than you would lose defensively with Chandler.

  78. flossy

    ruruland: My suggestions are all upside deals.

    Anderson, Gorden, Lopez, Melo, Shumpert can be off the charts good offensively, far more diverse and balanced in a playoff situation.

    I’m saying that if Gorden returned and even improved upon what he was prior to injury, you’re going to get way more offensive value from those lineups than you would lose defensively with Chandler.

    Upside of a healthy Amar’e >>>> upside of a healthy Eric Gordon to the point that it’s not even close, and I don’t have faith in Eric Gordon at all to be the starting PG for a playoff team.

  79. DRed

    ruruland: Sure. But it also shows that guys like Howard, Hibbert, Sanders, Ibaka — guys conventionally thought of as great rim protectors– ahead of everyone else.

    It also placed guys conventionally thought of as poor rim protectors where they should be placed.

    The sample sizes in that study were so small (especially for some of the players) that the results are meaningless. Look at Ibaka-according to the sloan study, he’s one of the best in the league at reducing opponents FG% on shots near the basket. That seems to make sense-he’s long and athletic and he blocks a lot of shots. But when it comes to intimidating opponents into not even attempting shots in close, Ibaka ranks dead last. And then you notice that they reach these conclusions about Ibaka based on 104 shots. (over how many minutes? That’s another thing we don’t know)

  80. BigBlueAL

    How the hell does Birdman not get ejected?? Plus Hansbrough gets a technical too. WTF????

  81. ruruland

    flossy: Upside of a healthy Amar’e >>>> upside of a healthy Eric Gordon to the point that it’s not even close, and I don’t have faith in Eric Gordon at all to be the starting PG for a playoff team.

    Perhaps. And I will go into that in the next couple of weeks after having poured through the treasure trove wowy for a few days. There’s some really exciting stuff I think when you look at the domino effect on a team inserting a player like Amar’e — with his ability to self-create high efficiency shots at high usage.

    All of a sudden, you can shift JR smith down to a role he’s much better at plus much more I’ll get into.

    Seriously, some of the Amar’e lineup data is incredible.

  82. Nick C.

    Are these refs shitting me? First play of the half a player jumps on Hibbert’s hea. No call. Wade jumps into a motionless Hibbert. Two shots.

  83. yellowboy90

    No way the Knicks can get him and I don’t know a reason to want him but If they want to trade Greg smith that would be nice.

    IF I knew Houston was getting Howard and wanted to deal Asik. I would really think about trading Chandler to a team like Portland for picks and a TPE to get Asik but there is no guarantees you’d get Asik and Portland could actually trade for Asik themselves. I don’t know if Houston would want him on a western conference team though.

  84. DRed

    yellowboy90:
    No way the Knicks can get him and I don’t know a reason to want him but If they want to trade Greg smith that would be nice.

    Hey, anytime a power forward with a 45 TS% is available you have to see what you can do to get him.

  85. Brian Cronin

    Flopping has, if not ruined the NBA, has certainly made it a lot less enjoyable. It really is to the point where the only way you can get any call is if you flop, because the refs are so used to dramatic reactions on every piece of contact so that only really dramatic reactions draw calls now. So there’s really no way to tell what is going on on the court because everyone on each team acts like they’ve been shot on every bit of contact.

  86. mr.JayP

    Ind needs lebron to talk more shit about flopping so they can get some friendly, but blatant foul calls.

    I hate to discredit deserving players, but it does make u wonder.

  87. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    Flopping has, if not ruined the NBA, has certainly made it a lot less enjoyable. It really is to the point where the only way you can get any call is if you flop, because the refs are so used to dramatic reactions on every piece of contact so that only really dramatic reactions draw calls now. So there’s really no way to tell what is going on on the court because everyone on each team acts like they’ve been shot on every bit of contact.

    Its why Melo doesnt seem to get as many calls as he should get. He doesnt over-dramatize the contact on offense, he usually plays thru it to tries to make the shot. The annoying crap is players driving and acting like they were killed with no intent whatsoever to make the shot.

  88. DRed

    Flopping is sucks, but I can still enjoy Lebron leading his team in points, rebounds and assists. I hated Michael Jordan too much to enjoy how awesome he was, but I find Lebron fun to watch. Even if he goes down like an Italian soccer player when he gets bumped.

  89. BigBlueAL

    mr.JayP:
    Ind needs lebron to talk more shit about flopping so they can get some friendly, but blatant foul calls.

    I hate to discredit deserving players, but it does make u wonder.

    LeBron’s flopping is annoying as hell because of how big and strong he is. Reggie Miller used to flop all he time but he looked like he weighed 150 lbs soaking wet so it was almost like you felt sorry for him and accepted the fact that he had to flop. Same thing with Rodman being relatively small compared to the PF’s and C’s he had to cover.

    Flopping has always been around but usually it was limited to inferior/smaller players doing it to try to help themselves defending better players (Divac when he played Shaq for an example). Now you have the 3 best players in the NBA (LeBron/Durant/CP3) who are freaking masters of it which helps them get so many FT attempts. Thats the annoying part to me.

  90. d-mar

    The Pacers and the Heat are starting to remind me of the Knicks and the Bulls in the 90’s. As long as LeBron (Jordan) is in the league, Indiana will just represent a speed bump for Miami.

  91. mr.JayP

    BigBlueAL: LeBron’s flopping is annoying as hell because of how big and strong he is.Reggie Miller used to flop all he time but he looked like he weighed 150 lbs soaking wet so it was almost like you felt sorry for him and accepted the fact that he had to flop.Same thing with Rodman being relatively small compared to the PF’s and C’s he had to cover.

    Flopping has always been around but usually it was limited to inferior/smaller players doing it to try to help themselves defending better players (Divac when he played Shaq for an example).Now you have the 3 best players in the NBA (LeBron/Durant/CP3) who are freaking masters of it which helps them get so many FT attempts.Thats the annoying part to me.

    Is it more annoying than seeing said player literally bulldose through a player with not an offensive foul call yet in the same game have a player sneeze on him and he’s in the third row of the stands? now thats annoying.

    O and imo. the pacers are just a PG away from not only beating mia., but legitimately being better and being a force in the east. they dont even need a super star. they just need a consistent good pg to run the show.

  92. Will the Thrill

    I’m curious, what did Tyson’s defensive stats look like the year he won DPOY? Was he always a shitty rim protector or did this only start this year? I was under the impression his on-off the court stats would be off the charts for the defense that year.

  93. ruruland

    Will the Thrill:
    I’m curious, what did Tyson’s defensive stats look like the year he won DPOY? Was he always a shitty rim protector or did this only startthis year? I was under the impression his on-off the court stats would be off the charts for the defense that year.

    Knicks were 1.3 net rating points better on defense with Chandler on floor in 2011-12 (they were 2 net points worse on offense).

    For his career, Tyson’s teams have been .7 better on defense with him on floor.

  94. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Isn’t it funny how WS48 has a defensive adjustment yet no one flinches to use it to prove a point?

  95. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    mr.JayP: O and imo. the pacers are just a PG away from not only beating mia., but legitimately being better and being a force in the east.

    And the Heat are a Bosh-for-legit-center trade away from winning the next three championships in sweeps. Bosh has a good game from time to time, but he’s a waste of a max slot most of the time. Andersen should be starting at center and Norris Cole should ride the pine.

    Lots of teams are one player away from being a championship contender. If Houston gets Millsap or Howard next year, you could be looking at the new West champs. That’s how basketball works. One great player can produce fifteen wins himself, all else being equal.

  96. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: And the Heat are a Bosh-for-legit-center trade away from winning the next three championships in sweeps. Bosh has a good game from time to time, but he’s a waste of a max slot most of the time. Andersen should be starting at center and Norris Cole should ride the pine.

    Andsersen has never played more than 22 mpg. He’s a high energy player that absolutely wore down the year he averaged 22 mpg and was consistently extended. (Yeah, it was obvious to anyone who watched Denver that season).

    He suffered a huge decline in the last quarter of the season and into the playoffs, and didn’t fully recover health-wise until this season.

    The year after getting major minutes he missed half the season and was then used as a platoon player in 2011-12.

    Chandler produced 13.3 wins in 66 games played this season, and the Knicks produced 12 wins in the 16 games he didn’t play.

    Have you not figured out that no one is buying WP on this board outside of a few stragglers?

  97. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Isn’t it funny how WS48 has a defensive adjustment yet no one flinches to use it to prove a point?

    A box score team defensive adjustment that is basically negligible to one’s WP/POP.

  98. ruruland

    Jason Kidd was the third best “point guard” in the NBA last season, behind the great Jose Calderon, yet the Knicks were a meager .4 points better with Kidd on the floor, which ranked 8th on the team.

    Has the third best pg and 12 best player in the league (among those who played 1,00 minutes or more, I hate to disclude Shavlik Randolph and Arnett Moultrie) ever gotten benched in the playoffs for a 35-year old rookie who averaged 6 points in his place?

    Has the game’s 12th best player ever gone 3-25 in the playoffs with a 33 percent turnover rate and 14 percent assist rate?

    Oh, but he’s a great rebounder for a ” point guard”. (Kidd played 80 percent of his minutes at shooting guard).

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players?direction=desc&positions=SG&positions=PG&sort=%22WP48%22

  99. ruruland

    Anyone who believes WP is the trooth must hereby post the following:

    Jason Kidd is a better NBA player than James Harden.

    Thank you.

  100. yellowboy90

    Does anyone think the Knicks can unload Novak contract. Also, do you think anyone would take Camby if the Knicks gave them 3 million too. I guess it would have to be for a player a team gave up on with a multiple years on the contract.

    I got it. Let’s go for the gusto. Novak, Camby, 2014 2nd for Andrea Bargnani.

  101. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland: st pg and 12 best player in the league (among those who played 1,00 minutes or more, I hate to disclude Shavlik Randolph and Arnett Moultrie) ever gotten benched in the playoffs for a 35-year old rookie who averaged 6 points in his place?
    Has the game’s 12th best player ever gone 3-25 in the playoffs with a 33 percent turnover rate and 14 percent assist rate?

    Do I really need to explain that your appeals to common sense are complete and utter bullshit? You harp on the interaction effects of eFG% and then talk about simple +/-. You say “Yes, it was obvious for anyone who watched the games.”

    You talk a big game, bro, but ultimately your reasoning is not better than mine. You have an ego to match, and a boner for Your Precious.

  102. DRed

    ruruland:

    Has the game’s 12th best player ever gone 3-25 in the playoffs with a 33 percent turnover rate and 14 percent assist rate?

    How does a player have more assists than turnovers while his turnover rate is so much higher than his assist rate? Just seems odd to me.

  103. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    DRed: How does a player have more assists than turnovers while his turnover rate is so much higher than his assist rate?Just seems odd to me.

    Because those stats are nonsense.

  104. MeloDrama

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I still can’t believe that Gordon got a max deal. That is absolutely insane.

    Not really, since it’s not a “real” max deal. It was something like 4-58, which is still extremely high, but you match that 10 of 10 times before letting him walk for nothing.

    Obviously it hasn’t worked out given last season.

  105. MeloDrama

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: And the Heat are a Bosh-for-legit-center trade away from winning the next three championships in sweeps. Bosh has a good game from time to time, but he’s a waste of a max slot most of the time. Andersen should be starting at center and Norris Cole should ride the pine.

    Lots of teams are one player away from being a championship contender. If Houston gets Millsap or Howard next year, you could be looking at the new West champs. That’s how basketball works. One great player can produce fifteen wins himself, all else being equal.

    Bosh has been garbage this series, but in general I think dealing him would be a massive mistake. He spaces the floor better than almost any other center would, and extending his range beyond the 3 makes Miami almost impossible to stop.

    I’m not sure if he just slimmed down too much to deal with a big front court like Indiana’s or what. Replacing him with Birdman wouldn’t work for the reasons Ruru outlined … Bird’s a great energy bench guy and an extremely valuable player in that role, likely not so much as a starter.

    Miami’s biggest issue IMO has nothing to do with Bosh, it’s Wade’s knee issues. They can go small largely due to the dominance of James and Wade collectively – as much as Indiana has dominated Miami inside this series, their wins have been close and this series IMO is already over if Wade is even 75% of himself.

  106. Hubert

    mr.JayP: the pacers are just a PG away from not only beating mia., but legitimately being better and being a force in the east. they dont even need a super star. they just need a consistent good pg to run the show.

    You mean, like George Hill?

    That guy is good and I don’t think there is an upgrade available to them they could acquire without weakening them somewhere else.

    If I were looking to upgrade that team, I’d be looking at Lance Stephenson’s position. In fact, Indiana is the team that ought to take a chance on Eric Gordon.

    A healthy Gordon at SG, Granger & Stephenson on the bench, that team wins a championship.

  107. flossy

    Hubert: You mean, like George Hill?

    That guy is good and I don’t think there is an upgrade available to them they could acquire without weakening them somewhere else.

    If I were looking to upgrade that team, I’d be looking at Lance Stephenson’s position.In fact, Indiana is the team that ought to take a chance on Eric Gordon.

    A healthy Gordon at SG, Granger & Stephenson on the bench, that team wins a championship.

    Forget Eric Gordon. They should trade or amnesty Granger and sign JJ Redick to start at PG in addition to re-signing West.

  108. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    MeloDrama: Bosh has been garbage this series, but in general I think dealing him would be a massive mistake. He spaces the floor better than almost any other center would, and extending his range beyond the 3 makes Miami almost impossible to stop.

    I’m not sure if he just slimmed down too much to deal with a big front court like Indiana’s or what. Replacing him with Birdman wouldn’t work for the reasons Ruru outlined … Bird’s a great energy bench guy and an extremely valuable player in that role, likely not so much as a starter.

    Miami’s biggest issue IMO has nothing to do with Bosh, it’s Wade’s knee issues. They can go small largely due to the dominance of James and Wade collectively – as much as Indiana has dominated Miami inside this series, their wins have been close and this series IMO is already over if Wade is even 75% of himself.

    Bosh is an absolutely horrid 3-point shooter. I’d rather have a center who busts his ass in the paint on both ends than a guy who’s camping in the corner. It’s a center! You don’t need him to be a floor spacer because no team in their right mind is going to leave the paint that open in the first place.

  109. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    MeloDrama: Not really, since it’s not a “real” max deal. It was something like 4-58, which is still extremely high, but you match that 10 of 10 times before letting him walk for nothing.

    Obviously it hasn’t worked out given last season.

    It hasn’t worked out because he’s not good at basketball. Let him walk and get that money from another team so he can ruin their future instead of your franchise’s.

  110. mr.JayP

    Hubert: You mean, like George Hill?

    That guy is good and I don’t think there is an upgrade available to them they could acquire without weakening them somewhere else.

    If I were looking to upgrade that team, I’d be looking at Lance Stephenson’s position.In fact, Indiana is the team that ought to take a chance on Eric Gordon.

    A healthy Gordon at SG, Granger & Stephenson on the bench, that team wins a championship.

    George hill is a decent pg. but i guess that Toe injury really hurts him, in the games that the pacers won he lit up mia for 18-19 points and went to the line a good amount of times. in 2 loses he was held to a combined 6 pts. only in 1 lose did he score more than that, but that was the blowout win for mia in game 3.

    Their front court was atroucious last night.

    And to the honorable cock. Like stated, mia’s game is pace n space. they will run you and spread you out, there’s a reason why none of their previous center’s worked, its the same reason why we suffer with chandler. Bosh at the 5 spread’s you out and moves your big away from the rim to give easier drivers to wade, lebron, cole and super mario. Without those drives they can’t dish to their 3pt shooters.

    So you saying that bosh is overrated and they need a true center is completely and utterly wrong. but if they do get one, it would just help every other team in the east out.

  111. Hubert

    flossy: Forget Eric Gordon.They should trade or amnesty Granger and sign JJ Redick to start at PG in addition to re-signing West.

    Yes, that would be good, too.

    It’s kind of depressing discussing their options to improve concurrently with us taking a flyer on Shaun Livingston. Let’s forget them.

  112. Zanzibar

    flossy: Forget Eric Gordon.They should trade or amnesty Granger and sign JJ Redick to start at PG in addition to re-signing West.

    Pacers have already used their amnesty and I’m not sure of their ability to re-sign West and keep Granger. Redick would be an excellent fit for that team. Hear me out out on this one: ESPN Trade Machine shows QRich at 2.5m for one more year (cancelable?). Let’s say Kidd decides to retire – he mentioned he’s looking at TV and coaching. Makes sense for him to retire and take a job in one of those areas at MSG. Dolan pays him his 3m and saves luxury tax. So here it is: Knicks give up Kidd, Camby, White, QRich and receive Granger. Kidd retires after trade and Pacers use stretch provision on Camby’s contract (1m cap hit). Pacers have freed up 12m in cap space which could be used to sign West and/or Redick depending upon their general cap situation. Austin’s 3.5 expires and Hansborough’s (3m) a RFA so that makes it 18.5M. Question is would acquiring Granger (1 year) be worth potentially strengthening Pacers? (Note maybe they’d take Novak if QRich contract doesn’t work). Regardless, this approach might be handy in acquiring another player.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=kfgc7ag

  113. Z

    Zanzibar: Pacers have already used their amnesty and I’m not sure of their ability to re-sign West and keep Granger. Redick would be an excellent fit for that team. Hear me out out on this one: ESPN Trade Machine shows QRich at 2.5m for one more year (cancelable?). Let’s say Kidd decides to retire – he mentioned he’s looking at TV and coaching. Makes sense for him to retire and take a job in one of those areas at MSG. Dolan pays him his 3m and saves luxury tax. So here it is: Knicks give up Kidd, Camby, White, QRich and receive Granger. Kidd retires after trade and Pacers use stretch provision on Camby’s contract (1m cap hit). Pacers have freed up 12m in cap space which could be used to sign West and/or Redick depending upon their general cap situation. Austin’s 3.5 expires and Hansborough’s (3m) a RFA so that makes it 18.5M. Question is would acquiring Granger (1 year) be worth potentially strengthening Pacers? (Note maybe they’d take Novak if QRich contract doesn’t work). Regardless, this approach might be handy in acquiring another player.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=kfgc7ag

    I don’t think teams that just met in the conference semifinals make trades with each other. Not that they shouldn’t. Just that I don’t think it has ever happened, and I don’t think it will start happening this summer.

  114. MeloDrama

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: It hasn’t worked out because he’s not good at basketball. Let him walk and get that money from another team so he can ruin their future instead of your franchise’s.

    Gordon’s a very good player when healthy IMO. He was never healthy this season. It hasn’t worked out because he’s the glass man.

  115. flossy

    MeloDrama: Gordon’s a very good player when healthy IMO. He was never healthy this season. It hasn’t worked out because he’s the glass man.

    I’m gonna have to agree with Jowles on this one. Even when healthy, Eric Gordon is nothing more than a slightly above-average shooting guard. At his best, he gives you efficient volume scoring and nothing else, at less than his best he gives you inefficient volume scoring and nothing else, and he’s not a good defender at all. AND he can’t stay healthy.

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say he’s “not good at basketball,” but the fact that he makes $14/year is insane. I’d think you’d be hard-pressed to argue he’s much better than JR Smith, and that’s when healthy.

  116. flossy

    flossy: I’m gonna have to agree with Jowles on this one.Even when healthy, Eric Gordon is nothing more than a slightly above-average shooting guard.At his best, he gives you efficient volume scoring and nothing else, at less than his best he gives you inefficient volume scoring and nothing else, and he’s not a good defender at all.AND he can’t stay healthy.

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say he’s “not good at basketball,” but the fact that he makes $14/year is insane.I’d think you’d be hard-pressed to argue he’s much better than JR Smith, and that’s when healthy.

    In fact, per 36 and advanced stat wise, Gordon and JR are virtually the same player. Would you give a $58 million contract to a 6’3″ version of JR Smith?

  117. Hubert

    flossy: I’m gonna have to agree with Jowles on this one.Even when healthy, Eric Gordon is nothing more than a slightly above-average shooting guard.At his best, he gives you efficient volume scoring and nothing else, at less than his best he gives you inefficient volume scoring and nothing else, and he’s not a good defender at all.AND he can’t stay healthy.

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say he’s “not good at basketball,” but the fact that he makes $14/year is insane.I’d think you’d be hard-pressed to argue he’s much better than JR Smith, and that’s when healthy.

    Haha! I was staring at their numbers while you were writing this! Great call.

  118. jon abbey

    Gordon was only 23 when he signed that big deal, Phoenix was betting on his upside and NO decided they couldn’t afford to lose their major return for Chris Paul for nothing.

  119. flossy

    Hubert: Haha!I was staring at their numbers while you were writing this!Great call.

    Mind meld! At least JR Smith can stay on the court.

  120. airkent

    The only thing he does significantly better is rebound and get to the free throw line. All their other numbers are pretty similar. I was trying to say that before his injury eric gordon was one of the up and coming sg in the league.

  121. Z

    Z: Has a lottery pick that averaged 22.3 ppg his 3rd season ever NOT become a very rich man?

    Since the inception of the “max contract”, these are the players that have averaged 22 ppg while on a rookie contract:

    James
    Durant
    Anthony
    Stoudemire
    Carter
    Pierce
    Rose
    Wade
    Duncan
    Bosh
    Griffin
    Irving
    Gordon

    So, deserving or not, it is very easy to see why Gordon got a max contract, just like everybody else on the list did (or will).

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