Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, November 27, 2014

NYTimes: How Good Will Lin Be?

Lin, Lin Lin Lin. Lin Lin — Lin Lin Lin Lin, Lin Lin Lin Lin. Lin Lin Lin Lin Lin Lin? Lin Lin Lin.

Without getting too in-depth on my method, I use a combination of shooting rates and per-minute floor stats. When two players are being compared, I normalize (z-score) the pertinent stats and then add them up in what can be called a z-sum. The lower the z-sum, the more alike two players are. By limiting the pool of players to those of the same age, I can compare players at the same part of their career curves. That is, there is little use comparing a veteran at the tail end of his career to a neophyte still learning the ropes.

Using this process, I’m able to come up with a list of players who have similar statistical profiles at the same age. Hence by looking at the top 10 most compatible players, one could get a good idea at the ceiling and cellar for a given player at a given age.

76 comments on “NYTimes: How Good Will Lin Be?

  1. StatsTeacher

    Lin looked good tonight, his jumper is off, but he ran the team really well. Still fun to watch. The Griz played to win as their starters were in a ton. Conley is improved. Both teams are very athletic. Will be interested in the Griz/Knicks game(s) this year, very different styles.

  2. knicknyk

    It was a pre-season game. I am not ruru who thinks that ignoring pre-season games are folly. Pre-season is fools gold in so many ways. Lin played well last night yeah but let the reg. season start. Good or bad play during the pre-season doesn’t warrant over-reaction in my opinion.

  3. Brian Cronin

    Wow, that’s quite a hatchet job on Melo.

    There’s likely a grain of truth to the story, in the sense that yeah, I and I am sure a lot of others have always wanted to get an alpha dog point guard here, like a Nash or a Chris Paul, but the idea that Melo was supposed to take a backseat to Jeremy Lin is just silly. Dude’s your biggest star. You don’t ask him to take a backseat to someone like Lin. And I don’t think that’s what D’Antoni was doing in the games Melo played with Lin. Although apparently that’s what Melo thought he was doing.

    But otherwise, the big “revelation” that Melo wanted D’Antoni gone is pretty anti-climactic. We all pretty much knew that already. D’Antoni wanted Melo gone and Melo wanted D’Antoni gone. 9 times out of 10, in a situation like that, the player wins and that’s what happened this time. Typical NBA conflict. No big story there.

  4. knicknyk

    I think the timing of that hatchet job is quite interesting. It came out right after the NYDN published that article taking shots at Lin and also after Stephen A was ranting about Lin again on his talk show. I don’t believe all of it but there are likely some elements of truth. Anyway it is all old news.

  5. Jafa

    Good article. The similarities to Robert Pack, his closest comp, are eerily similar:

    Pack, like Lin, went undrafted

    Pack, like Lin, was traded after his rookie season (at least we look at last year as Lin’s “rookie” season) as his team (Portland) brought in a veteran PG Rod Strickland

    Pack, like Lin, was traded from Portland to Denver, a young team featuring Mutombo, Ellis and Abdul-Rauf. They were the first 8th seed to defeat a #1 seed in the playoffs that year (not saying that’s what the Rockets will do, but with Minny’s injuries, there is an opening for the 8th seed in the west)

    Career AST%, USG%, TOV%, PPG & APG are very, very close.

    That’s all I got. Lin can’t dunk like Pack, isn’t the same complexion and is probably guarenteed more $ so far than Pack made in his whole career.

  6. Jafa

    I loved that hatchet job on Melo – I could have assumed almost all of that before I read it. Still mad we didn’t know DWill was available.

    All things being equal (that is, we traded the exact same assets to Utah for DWill), not only would we have an elite floor general and leader, STAT and Chandler would be a lot more useful on offense and we would be a solid wing player away from serious contention.

  7. er

    As an aside, I am always baffled when ppl say that Melo is overrated. What exactly is he rated at? I always hear 10-20, how is that overrated. Im not arguing this, but Kevin Durant is somehow everyone’s automatic second best player in the league.Many people can and probably should scoff at this statement. He is basically a more athletic Dirk , and the Dallas big man was hardly every considered top five. When you compare him to CP3 and Dwight Howard, who by the way have never played on loaded teams like the OKC Thunder I can say that Kevin Durant is an overrated player because I feel that at least CP3 and D12 are better and make others far better than KD(also a key area detractors like to bang melo on even though he has NEVER avg more assists than melo)

    Furthermore i think its gone so far to where Carmelo Anthony is actually an underrated basketball player. He by his standards had an awful year last year and still in a vaccum his numbers are respectable to even very good for an nba sf besides shooting percentage. If everyone is scoffing at him being considered a 10-20 bball player than is insane. I just think its fun for people to pile on melo and say shit like, “oh hes overrated”

  8. Frank

    knicknyk:
    I think the timing of that hatchet job is quite interesting. It came out right after the NYDN published that article taking shots at Lin and also after Stephen A was ranting about Lin again on his talk show. I don’t believe all of it but there are likely some elements of truth. Anyway it is all old news.

    Clearly there are multiple agendas here and the media is being used to push those agendas. It’s most likely (at least IMHO) that the truth lies somewhere between.

    What I will say is this – and I agree with Brian — that MDA’s problem in NY wasn’t coaching X’s and O’s – it was people management. That’s the difference between being a head coach and an assistant coach — head coach is stuck with LOTS of ego management. Phil Jackson was undeniably a good X’s and O’s guy, but what put him over the top was his ability to get his high-ego guys to buy in. MDA serially had issues with communication (or lack thereof) with his high maintenance guys – Marbury, Nate Robinson, Melo, etc. For guys who believe in him unconditionally (Nash/Amare etc.) and in situations like the Olympics (where he as an assistant), it works great. Not so much here. maybe he would be fine coaching Kevin Durant or Tim Duncan, but superstars with apparently zero ego issues are rarer than rare.

    The question is – how would Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Pop, or a Belichick-like coach have handled the sudden breakout of Jeremy Lin? Could they have massaged the situation in such a way that Melo really bought in? Because if you don’t get ahead of a situation like this and control it in the way you want (and it was obvious that there was going to be a change of role once Melo came back), then you will lose control of it just as MDA did. Worldwide Wes gets involved, smear campaigns (on both sides to be sure) begin, etc.

  9. er

    yea except you got chandler through the denver deal for billups

    Jafa:
    I loved that hatchet job on Melo – I could have assumed almost all of that before I read it.Still mad we didn’t know DWill was available.

    All things being equal (that is, we traded the exact same assets to Utah for DWill), not only would we have an elite floor general and leader, STAT and Chandler would be a lot more useful on offense and we would be a solid wing player away from serious contention.

  10. knicknyk

    Yeah agree on all fronts Brian. I am not sure if any coach could have really managed a situation like that. In NY, with that amount of hype. Like it isn’t fair to tell Melo buy in for Lin, like I love Lin but he is still learning & is a major work in progress. And then going forward you have this super talented front court but a inexperienced back court. And if you bring Lin off the bench would he be okay with that? Then you have the pressure to win big in NY, the media etc. Like I don’t see Jesus himself handling that situation properly.

  11. Jafa

    er:
    yea except you got chandler through the denver deal for billups

    Replace Billups with X player with large salary on the Utah Jazz who was added to make the salaries match and its a mute point. We amnestied Billups to acquire Chandler, which means we would have amnestied X player to acquire Chandler.

  12. Juany8

    Mike D’Antoni did give complete control of the offense to Lin, even when Amar’e and Melo came back. Melo seemed to have no problem with Lin once Woodson started playing and the offense featured him more prominently, and the Knicks had their best stretch of the season with Amar’e, Lin, and Melo all playing together, even while Melo was still shooting like shit. It wasn’t that Melo had major alpha dog issues with Lin, it’s that he had issues with MDA turning him into a side player and letting Lin go free.

    As far as D-Will, has anyone seen how bad he’s been with the Nets? Why is everyone so sure that it has nothing to do with losing Jerry Sloan, Steve Nash still but up the same great numbers whether his best teammate was a still-good Amar’e or Jared Dudley. For a point guard who’s supposed to have the ball in his hands anyways, not playing with other scorers isn’t a good excuse. Having someone like Melo or Pierce bring the ball up from 25 ft is a bad idea, D-Will is supposed to do that anyways…

  13. ruruland

    Brian Cronin:
    Wow, that’s quite a hatchet job on Melo.

    There’s likely a grain of truth to the story, in the sense that yeah, I and I am sure a lot of others have always wanted to get an alpha dog point guard here, like a Nash or a Chris Paul, but the idea that Melo was supposed to take a backseat to Jeremy Lin is just silly. Dude’s your biggest star. You don’t ask him to take a backseat to someone like Lin. And I don’t think that’s what D’Antoni was doing in the games Melo played with Lin. Although apparently that’s what Melo thought he was doing.

    But otherwise, the big “revelation” that Melo wanted D’Antoni gone is pretty anti-climactic. We all pretty much knew that already. D’Antoni wanted Melo gone and Melo wanted D’Antoni gone. 9 times

    D’Antoni is the source in the story. He for all intents and purposes wrote it. I know this for a fact. Now, I don’t have a problem with him expressing his jaded opinion. But I do have a problem with himhiding his name when he was too cowardly to confront Melo or the team with his grievances. But the biggest coward is the “author” Keown, who committed three of the biggest journalistic sins 1)he did not allow the accused a chance to respond to the charges laid against him 2) in the sense that the story was generated solely from one source and thus could not be empirically verified, it did not seek to objectively investigate said allegations 3) it lacked the diversity of sources to be objective, and it lacked the credibility in sourcing to be authoritative, which is what it attempts.

    There is a lot more to the story, but it wasnt just the ommision of facts but that those presented are interpreted differently, and validly so.

  14. Jafa

    @ 16,

    Frank, I think MDA’s problem was that he was given a player whose talents did not fit his offensive system and philosophy. He had very little use for what Melo does best in his system. This is the equivalent of giving Phil Jackson (the example you used) a PG like CP3, DWill, Nash or Rondo. The triangle offense would stiffle a lot of things they do best.

  15. ruruland

    knicknyk:
    I think the timing of that hatchet job is quite interesting. It came out right after the NYDN published that article taking shots at Lin and also after Stephen A was ranting about Lin again on his talk show. I don’t believe all of it but there are likely some elements of truth. Anyway it is all old news.

    Lin has nothing to do with it.

  16. ruruland

    Jafa:
    I loved that hatchet job on Melo – I could have assumed almost all of that before I read it.Still mad we didn’t know DWill was available.

    All things being equal (that is, we traded the exact same assets to Utah for DWill), not only would we have an elite floor general and leader, STAT and Chandler would be a lot more useful on offense and we would be a solid wing player away from serious contention.

    How do you love a hatchet job? It’s the same thing as saying you love bad journalism when it supports your bias.

  17. er

    Thats what i have been saying. How can someone just railroad someone like this and be called journalism. And if his source is dantoni like you say than he is a coward. You say all of this and hide behind anonymous even though he is not affiliated with the knicks. I also think the reference to him doing well in the olympics due to dantoni is extremely idiotic. He played Center on that team smh

    ruruland: D’Antoni is the source in the story. He for all intents and purposes wrote it. I know this for a fact. Now, I don’t have a problem with him expressing his jaded opinion. But I do have a problem with himhiding his name when he was too cowardly to confront Melo or the team with his grievances. But the biggest coward is the “author” Keown, who committed three of the biggest journalistic sins 1)he did not allow the accused a chance to respond to the charges laid against him 2) in the sense that the story was generated solely from one source and thus could not be empirically verified, it did not seek to objectively investigate said allegations 3) it lacked the diversity of sources to be objective, and it lacked the credibility in sourcing to be authoritative, which is what it attempts.

    There is a lot more to the story, but it wasnt just the ommision of facts but that those presented are interpreted differently, and validly so.

  18. ruruland

    Juany8:
    Mike D’Antoni did give complete control of the offense to Lin, even when Amar’e and Melo came back. Melo seemed to have no problem with Lin once Woodson started playing and the offense featured him more prominently, and the Knicks had their best stretch of the season with Amar’e, Lin, and Melo all playing together, even while Melo was still shooting like shit. It wasn’t that Melo had major alpha dog issues with Lin, it’s that he had issues with MDA turning him into a side player and letting Lin go free.

    As far as D-Will, has anyone seen how bad he’s been with the Nets? Why is everyone so sure that it has nothing to do with losing Jerry Sloan, Steve Nash still but up the same great numbers whether his best teammate was a still-good Amar’e or Jared Dudley. For a point guard who’s supposed to have the ball in his hands anyways, not playing with other scorers isn’t a good excuse. Having someone like Melo or Pierce bring the ball up from 25 ft is a bad idea, D-Will is supposed to do that anyways…

    nice post. It’s not Sloan Williams misses its the flex. And Jafa, Williams quit on his team last year and has been far from a leader. He’s not the media target Melo is, for whatever reason.

  19. New Guy

    er:
    As an aside, I am always baffled when ppl say that Melo is overrated. What exactly is he rated at? I always hear 10-20, how is that overrated.Im not arguing this, but Kevin Durant is somehow everyone’s automatic second best player in the league.Many people can and probably should scoff at this statement. He is basically a more athletic Dirk , and the Dallas big man was hardly every considered top five. When you compare him to CP3 and Dwight Howard, who by the way have never played on loaded teams like the OKC Thunder I can say that Kevin Durant is an overrated player because I feel that at least CP3 and D12 are better and make others far better than KD(also a key area detractors like to bang melo on even though he has NEVER avg more assists than melo)

    Furthermore i think its gone so far to where Carmelo Anthony is actually an underrated basketball player. He by his standards had an awful year last year and still in a vaccum his numbers are respectable to even very good for an nba sf besides shooting percentage. If everyone is scoffing at him being considered a 10-20 bball player than is insane. I just think its fun for people to pile on melo and say shit like, “oh hes overrated”

    Some great points on Durant, who I’ve yet to see make his teammates better at a level that exceeds anything Melo’s done.

    Regarding the overrated bit, I think it’s our organization + a delusional segment of our fans that overrate him. I mean, I talk to Knick fans who think he’s close to LeBron’s level. (I wish I didn’t, but I do.) You’re talking about the smart NBA fan, and most of them have him properly rated.

  20. er

    Jafa:
    @ 16,

    …..and that makes him an idiot. To bring phil into the convo with dantoni is a bad move. Phil would have made that work with an all star pg

    Frank, I think MDA’s problem was that he was given a player whose talents did not fit his offensive system and philosophy.He had very little use for what Melo does best in his system.This is the equivalent of giving Phil Jackson (the example you used) a PG like CP3, DWill, Nash or Rondo.The triangle offense would stiffle a lot of things they do best.

  21. Jafa

    @ ruruland,

    It is impossible for us to take your comments objectively as they relate to Melo. There is not one poster on this board that did not expect you to come on and defend Melo and thrash the author and his sources. That’s how objective you are on Melo.

    How to you know MDA is the source? Who is your source that told you that MDA is the source? How objective are they? Is there more than one source that told you MDA is the source of the story?

    Contrary to what you may think, some of the things in the story are easily observable – we didn’t need the article to reach those conclusions.

  22. Frank

    @ruru – it certainly felt like something D’Antoni might say, especially those quotes at the end from “a source close to the Knicks”. He’s probably right in that Melo would flourish in that role, but his job as the head coach of the Knicks is to make sure Melo buys in AND executes, not to run a few plays out there and show him on a whiteboard where he’s supposed to stand. Execution is all that matters, and it’s the HC’s fault if it doesn’t happen, no matter the reason. That’s what being the leader is all about. And if he can’t get Melo to buy in, that’s his failing just as much as it is Melo’s. If ruru is right and MDA is the source, that really sticks in my craw – it’s a character assassination (deserved or not) of a guy that he was responsible for. It’s like if Obama actually answered that question in the last debate about who was actually responsible for a decrease in security at that Libyan Embassy. You don’t hang your subordinates out to dry, and you certainly don’t do it anonymously.

  23. er

    New Guy: Some great points on Durant, who I’ve yet to see make his teammates better at a level that exceeds anything Melo’s done.
    Well yea there are always gonna be delusional fans, but i dont think you should base who is overrated on them. For instance i can say lin is overrated because some delusional ppl think hes already a top 5 pg in the league. However most smart fans dont

    Regarding the overrated bit, I think it’s our organization + a delusional segment of our fans that overrate him.I mean, I talk to Knick fans who think he’s close to LeBron’s level.(I wish I didn’t, but I do.)You’re talking about the smart NBA fan, and most of them have him properly rated.

  24. jon abbey

    no one should forget that D’Antoni deserved to be fired, he seems to be a pretty lousy and rigid coach without a world-class PG to run his inflexible system. huge disappointment for me, I was very excited to have him in NY initially.

  25. Jafa

    ruruland: nice post. It’s not Sloan Williams misses its the flex. And Jafa, Williams quit on his team last year and has been far from a leader. He’s not the media target Melo is, for whatever reason.

    I’m willing to bet my guy DWill has a better season that your guy Melo. We can use TS% and WS/48 as the bar. Do you accept?

  26. Frank

    Jafa: How to you know MDA is the source? Who is your source that told you that MDA is the source? How objective are they? Is there more than one source that told you MDA is the source of the story?

    Not that ruru needs me to defend/answer for him, but ruruland IS a sportswriter for ESPN. If he says that MDA’s the source, then I certainly would believe him more than someone who has no ties to the sportswriting world (like me, for instance).

  27. er

    he didnt really defend melo, he just sad he knows MDA is the source

    Jafa:
    @ ruruland,

    It is impossible for us to take your comments objectively as they relate to Melo.There is not one poster on this board that did not expect you to come on and defend Melo and thrash the author and his sources.That’s how objective you are on Melo.

    How to you know MDA is the source?Who is your source that told you that MDA is the source?How objective are they?Is there more than one source that told you MDA is the source of the story?

    Contrary to what you may think, some of the things in the story are easily observable – we didn’t need the article to reach those conclusions.

  28. ruruland

    Jafa:
    @ 16,

    Frank, I think MDA’s problem was that he was given a player whose talents did not fit his offensive system and philosophy.He had very little use for what Melo does best in his system.This is the equivalent of giving Phil Jackson (the example you used) a PG like CP3, DWill, Nash or Rondo.The triangle offense would stiffle a lot of things they do best.

    please this is silly. Woodson is doing what any decent coach would do with the Knicks offense, the things MDA refused.

    He’s essentially kept much of the offensive skeleton MDA left, with some 4 out and high PnR, multiple PnR. But he’s also implementing more motion sets and post-up sets to utilize Melo and hopefully generate some inside outs.

    The Knicks scored 1.2 ppossesion last year when Melo was doubled, which is great, and I’ve said all along, is the primary reason you get Melo ISo and post-ups.

    He creates so much attention it makes everyone who can make a jump shot or drive and finish against rotation that much better… Or gives them more of those opportunities, the kind you can build a half court offense aroUnd.

  29. ruruland

    Jafa: I’m willing to bet my guy DWill has a better season that your guy Melo.We can use TS% and WS/48 as the bar.Do you accept?

    Sure, nets fan.

  30. thenamestsam

    ruruland: D’Antoni is the source in the story. He for all intents and purposes wrote it. I know this for a fact. Now, I don’t have a problem with him expressing his jaded opinion.

    Oh, please. This is such bullshit. It’s a confidential source. That means that the only people that know who the source is are Keown, the source, anyone the source told, and maybe Keown’s editor. That’s it. So unless Dantoni himself told you that he said this you have no fucking clue if Dantoni is the source.

  31. New Guy

    Juany8:

    As far as D-Will, has anyone seen how bad he’s been with the Nets?

    How about on Team USA? I expected a dropoff in performance from Paul to Williams, but I didn’t expect it to be as stark as it was.

  32. er

    i thought i was the only one who saw that

    New Guy: How about on Team USA?I expected a dropoff in performance from Paul to Williams, but I didn’t expect it to be as stark as it was.

  33. ruruland

    Frank: Not that ruru needs me to defend/answer for him, but ruruland IS a sportswriter for ESPN. If he says that MDA’s the source, then I certainly would believe him more than someone who has no ties to the sportswriting world (like me, for instance).

    I do not know this because I freelance for ESPN, but if I were to publish a response that was intended to be journalism I would have more sources, more diversity and at least a few of them named

  34. er

    lol someone is upset

    thenamestsam: Oh, please. This is such bullshit. It’s a confidential source. That means that the only people that know who the source is are Keown, the source, anyone the source told, and maybe Keown’s editor. That’s it. So unless Dantoni himself told you that he said this you have no fucking clue if Dantoni is the source.

  35. Jafa

    @ 30,

    Frank, some questions: How did Amare handle it when we traded for Melo and he gradually become the main star and focal point of our offense? Do you think his $100 Million “The Knicks are back” mid-season MVP ego was bruised by that? Did he quit on the coach?

    How did Chandler, an NBA champion and defensive force, handle it when coach drew up plays that didn’t involve him in the offense and tried to tell him where to be on defense? Did he rebel on the coach?

    What about the other players? Everybody bought in when Melo was slated to play point-forward at the beginning of the season. Everybody bought in when we were going through every bad option at PG. Everybody bought in when Linsanity happened. Only one guy had a problem, and all of a sudden the coach is not doing his job?

    I beg to differ. SVG was doing an excellent job – D12 was just immature. Sloan was doing an excellent job – DWill was just immature. Just because the coach loses in a player-coach standoff does not mean the player was right or the coach did not “do his job”.

  36. Brian Cronin

    Mike D’Antoni did give complete control of the offense to Lin, even when Amar’e and Melo came back. Melo seemed to have no problem with Lin once Woodson started playing and the offense featured him more prominently, and the Knicks had their best stretch of the season with Amar’e, Lin, and Melo all playing together, even while Melo was still shooting like shit. It wasn’t that Melo had major alpha dog issues with Lin, it’s that he had issues with MDA turning him into a side player and letting Lin go free.

    Melo took more shots and had a higher usage than Lin in seven of the ten games they played together under D’Antoni. Of the three that Lin had a higher usage, one was Melo’s first game back, one was the Philly blowout that Melo didn’t play much in and one was a Dallas game where Amar’e out of nowhere dominated the game so neither Lin nor Melo were as involved, although Lin was slightly more involved than Melo. D’Antoni did not turn him into a “side player” in their short time together.

    That said, clearly they didn’t get along, and if Melo wanted him gone, fine. D’Antoni wanted Melo gone, after all. They were obviously clashing with each other. And almost every team in the world is going to go with the player in that situation. Seems fair to me. It’s not like D’Antoni was doing some amazing job or anything like that.

  37. thenamestsam

    er:
    lol someone is upset

    I’m just saying. I know for a fact that the source is the Cat in the Hat. So it can’t be Dantoni. Cause I’ve never seen that cat wear a hat.

  38. ruruland

    thenamestsam: Oh, please. This is such bullshit. It’s a confidential source. That means that the only people that know who the source is are Keown, the source, anyone the source told, and maybe Keown’s editor. That’s it. So unless Dantoni himself told you that he said this you have no fucking clue if Dantoni is the source.

    believe whatever you want. This is not the first conversation MDA has had about this, but it’s the first time he’s allowed it to be published.

  39. thenamestsam

    ruruland: believe whatever you want. This is not the first conversation MDA has had about this, but it’s the first time he’s allowed it to be published.

    So now it sounds like you’re saying only that you know that Dantoni feels this way, not that you know he is actually the source for this story. So which is it?

  40. New Guy

    er:
    i thought i was the only one who saw that

    Oh no. I watched with a group of die-hard basketball fans and we were all amazed at how unintelligent his play was, and how often the offense bogged down whenever he came in. He did hit some big shots when playing off the ball, but when he was at PG, I was not impressed.

    I’m not high on that Nets team at all. I think they’re fighting with Milwaukee & Cleveland for the 8 spot, and am surprised intelligent people like Hollinger have them 4th.

  41. ruruland

    thenamestsam: So now it sounds like you’re saying only that you know that Dantoni feels this way, not that you know he is actually the source for this story. So which is it?

    I know he’s the source for the story, and I know that prior to this story he’s been reluctant to let his opinion get published.

  42. Jafa

    ruruland: I know he’s the source for the story, and I know that prior to this story he’s been reluctant to let his opinion get published.

    How do you know? Did you talk to the author? Did you talk to the author’s editor? Are you naive enough to think that MDA is the only one who has these kind of opinions about Melo? Have you read some of the stuff George Karl has said about Melo since his departure? Have you read about what KMart said about him after he was gone from Denver? Have you read about half the articles written about him on ESPN or other sports news websites? The people that do not think highly of Melo are not a minority.

  43. New Guy

    Frank: Not that ruru needs me to defend/answer for him, but ruruland IS a sportswriter for ESPN. If he says that MDA’s the source, then I certainly would believe him more than someone who has no ties to the sportswriting world (like me, for instance).

    I would imagine his link to ESPN takes away from his credibility on this subject. If he “knew for a fact” it was MDA, he’d have a story to write. Instead, he’s on a message board slandering someone’s name in a way that prevents him from having to take professional responsibility for spewing bullshit. All while preaching about journalistic integrity. It’s kind of sad.

  44. New Guy

    Um, actually, never mind. Didn’t realize Keown wrote for ESPN, too. My apologies.

    Still think it’s bush league, though.

  45. er

    lol you guys sound a little dense. He said he knows, so obviously according to one of ruru’s “sources” in the industry it was him. Why is this so hard to understand. People talk get over it, not that big a deal. You can either choose to believe him or dont, but to keep asking, “how do you know?” sounds dumb, sorry.

    Jafa: How do you know?Did you talk to the author?Did you talk to the author’s editor?Are you naive enough to think that MDA is the only one who has these kind of opinions about Melo?Have you read some of the stuff George Karl has said about Melo since his departure?Have you read about what KMart said about him after he was gone from Denver?Have you read about half the articles written about him on ESPN or other sports news websites?The people that do not think highly of Melo are not a minority.

  46. er

    How is that slander? Isnt slandering lying? If its true it is not slander

    New Guy: I would imagine his link to ESPN takes away from his credibility on this subject.If he “knew for a fact” it was MDA, he’d have a story to write.Instead, he’s on a message board slandering someone’s name in a way that prevents him from having to take professional responsibility for spewing bullshit.All while preaching about journalistic integrity.It’s kind of sad.

  47. thenamestsam

    er:
    lol you guys sound a little dense. He said he knows, so obviously according to one of ruru’s “sources” in the industry it was him. Why is this so hard to understand. People talkget over it, not that big a deal. You can either choose to believe him or dont, but to keep asking, “how do you know?” sounds dumb, sorry.

    Don’t understand how this is dense. If he says “A source in melo’s camp told me” that has pretty different connotations than if he says “A source at ESPN told me”. As far as I can tell there’s no evidence whatsoever that Ruru has any sources except for his repeated claims that he does.

  48. Jafa

    er,

    A simple question: Can “sources” be wrong? If so, could ruruland’s sources be wrong about MDA being the source of the story?

    We are all fallible – I’m willing to admit that I don’t know if MDA is the source, and other posters have said it is “possible” that MDA is the source. But ruruland stated it as a fact, hence the “21 questions” which he hasn’t answered.

    My sources tell me the President never used the phrase “Act of Terror” in his speech on 9/12 in the rose garden. Could they be wrong?

  49. er

    all im saying is believe him or dont, but to keep asking how he knows makes no sense

    Jafa:
    er,

    A simple question: Can “sources” be wrong?If so, could ruruland’s sources be wrong about MDA being the source of the story?

    We are all fallible – I’m willing to admit that I don’t know if MDA is the source, and other posters have said it is “possible” that MDA is the source.But ruruland stated it as a fact, hence the “21 questions” which he hasn’t answered.

    My sources tell me the President never used the phrase “Act of Terror” in his speech on 9/12 in the rose garden.Could they be wrong?

  50. thenamestsam

    er:
    all im saying is believe him or dont, but to keep asking how he knows makes no sense

    Wouldn’t how he knows have a pretty big impact on whether you believe him or not?

  51. ruruland

    New Guy: I would imagine his link to ESPN takes away from his credibility on this subject.If he “knew for a fact” it was MDA, he’d have a story to write.Instead, he’s on a message board slandering someone’s name in a way that prevents him from having to take professional responsibility for spewing bullshit.All while preaching about journalistic integrity.It’s kind of sad.

    Lmao.I’m not pretending I’m a journalist in this situation. In many instances,journalists across the spectrum sideline a lot of hearsay and conversation because they understand they could be liable for libel (though it’s mal-intent for public figures) and that as journalists, in order to remain in good standing you don’t irresponsibly report one persons accusations without doing a serious of other things to make the story fair.

    All of this used to be industry norm and is taught at all the top journalism schools in the country.

    I’m typIng from a phone wish I could write more succinctly and dept.

  52. er

    Ok man, idk what to tell you. He can tell you any number of ways that he knew, but then how would you know if hes telling the truth about that? It just goes on and on, so basically you just have to make up your own mind.

    thenamestsam: Wouldn’t how he knows have a pretty big impact on whether you believe him or not?

  53. ruruland

    Jafa:
    er,

    A simple question: Can “sources” be wrong?If so, could ruruland’s sources be wrong about MDA being the source of the story?

    We are all fallible – I’m willing to admit that I don’t know if MDA is the source, and other posters have said it is “possible” that MDA is the source.But ruruland stated it as a fact, hence the “21 questions” which he hasn’t answered.

    My sources tell me the President never used the phrase “Act of Terror” in his speech on 9/12 in the rose garden.Could they be wrong?

    Others can point out the instances in which I’ve basically proven that I have “sources”. But I’m not going to say who they are because I’m not acting as a journalist and this is not my job. Ivf explained how i occasionaly get information on this board quite a few times. I don’t care if you believe me or not and I’ll continue to post on the occasion I know something. It’s always possible that my knowledge, based on what I’m told, is wrong.

    So take it with whatever grain of salt you feel necessary. But I don’t believe my information has ever been false since I’ve posted on this board.

  54. flossy

    ruruland: Others can point out the instances in which I’ve basically proven that I have “sources”.

    Wait, so you assert as a fact that you know the source for the ESPN story, but then say that “others” can demonstrate that you know what you’re talking about based on unspecified “instances” where you’ve “basically” proven you have “sources?”

  55. ruruland

    Jafa:
    @ 30,

    Frank, some questions: How did Amare handle it when we traded for Melo and he gradually become the main star and focal point of our offense?Do you think his $100 Million “The Knicks are back” mid-season MVP ego was bruised by that?Did he quit on the coach?

    How did Chandler, an NBA champion and defensive force, handle it when coach drew up plays that didn’t involve him in the offense and tried to tell him where to be on defense?Did he rebel on the coach?

    What about the other players?Everybody bought in when Melo was slated to play point-forward at the beginning of the season.Everybody bought in when we were going through every bad option at PG.Everybody bought in when Linsanity happened.Only one guy had a problem, and all of a sudden the coach is not doing his job?

    I

    quickly: Melo did buy into playing in slot and corner with Lin, until the losing streak. But apparently Melo has no competitive/alpha quality. You see the inherent contradiction,right?

    Secondly. everyone defensive intensity improved after MDA quit. Unless of course you think Melo makes a 4 pt per 100 possession difference by playing harder against an even tougher schedule.

  56. nicos

    ruruland: Now, I don’t have a problem with him expressing his jaded opinion. But I do have a problem with himhiding his name when he was too cowardly to confront Melo or the team with his grievances.

    More cowardly than Melo using Willis to backdoor MDA, all the while telling the press he had no problem with him? Look, it’s a little shady (though business as usual for both coaches and players) but I’m sure MDA wants to coach again and having his name attached to this might have hindered those chances. And Melo couldn’t go public during the season without sustaining real damage to an already fragile reputation (even if some of his complaints were legit as we saw they were once Woodson took over). As I said business as usual.

  57. Frank

    flossy: Wait, so you assert as a fact that you know the source for the ESPN story, but then say that “others” can demonstrate that you know what you’re talking about based on unspecified “instances” where you’ve “basically” proven you have “sources?”

    Zzzz. I’ve completely lost interest in this topic on this thread. Believe him or don’t, but seriously, he’s already told you what he thinks. No amount of him writing more about it going to convince you, so let’s just not bother?

  58. er

    This is what i have been trying to say…….lol

    Frank: Zzzz. I’ve completely lost interest in this topic on this thread. Believe him or don’t, but seriously, he’s already told you what he thinks. No amount of him writing more about it going to convince you, so let’s just not bother?

  59. ruruland

    flossy: Wait, so you assert as a fact that you know the source for the ESPN story, but then say that “others” can demonstrate that you know what you’re talking about based on unspecified “instances” where you’ve “basically” proven you have “sources?”

    Who told you Jr was signed a week before he signed, prior to media announcement, when the speculation was that he was testing market?

    Who told you that the Knicks were training together as a team before any media announcement ?

    Who told you that Melo was training on off the ball before he told reporters?

    Et al

    Secondly, you can put me on trial all you’d like. I’m not in the role of journalist, I’m not telling you specifically who I get information from ( I’ve explained why before) and I don’t care if you choose to not believe me.

    This is information that should further smart dialogue about the Knicks. If you choose to disregard it, eat your heart out.

  60. Brian Cronin

    More cowardly than Melo using Willis to backdoor MDA, all the while telling the press he had no problem with him? Look, it’s a little shady (though business as usual for both coaches and players) but I’m sure MDA wants to coach again and having his name attached to this might have hindered those chances. And Melo couldn’t go public during the season without sustaining real damage to an already fragile reputation (even if some of his complaints were legit as we saw they were once Woodson took over). As I said business as usual.

    Yeah, there is no good guy or bad guy here. It is just a typical NBA conflict. Happens all the time. The only thing that irks me is the fact that since this is the New York Knicks and this is such a big market, the Knicks get an inordinate amount of hatchet job articles with the hatchets going in all different directions.

  61. ruruland

    nicos: More cowardly than Melo using Willis to backdoor MDA, all the while telling the press he had no problem with him?Look, it’s a little shady (though business as usual for both coaches and players) but I’m sure MDA wants to coach again and having his name attached to this might have hindered those chances.And Melo couldn’t go public during the season without sustaining real damage to an already fragile reputation (even if some of his complaints were legit as we saw they were once Woodson took over).As I said business as usual.

    I. But why choose to go public now? Why wasnt he more direct with Melo and his team? It’s all sour grapes. Karl goes public. And btw JAFA, both Karl and Martin were extremely complimentary and specific (not trite coachspeak) towards Melo. That stuff gets buried, however. But I’ll post for you.

  62. ruruland

    Brian, most coaches handle things more directly. See Karl and SVG. Most get over it 6 months after fact. That’s prett vindictive.

    My main problem was the “reporter”

  63. Brian Cronin

    I agree that the reporter didn’t do a good job with the piece. Although I would argue that most hatchet jobs are bad pieces of reporting, hence the derogatory term people use for them.

  64. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I think ruruland confuses hearsay with heresy. Anything short of hagiography of Thy Lord and Savior Carmeleth Antonio is a punishable crime.

  65. ruruland

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I think ruruland confuses hearsay with heresy. Anything short of hagiography of Thy Lord and Savior Carmeleth Antonio is a punishable crime.

    Haha, i llike you THCJ. I get your dogma, the conceptual perspective you use to understand basketball.

    But you’re wrong. Carmelo Anthony has made a lot of mistakes. Has said a lot of stupid things and is far from a perfect basketball player.

    His lack of defensive effort at the tail end of MDA was inexcusable. Totally unproffesional. I criticized him for that and many other things as I have throughout the years.

    But I mostly defend him because of the ceaseless avalanche of misguided criticism he’s always buried under.

    I hope to fundamentally broaden the conversation, and I’m working on toning down the milatantism. You should too.

  66. jon abbey

    isn’t it possible that D’Antoni got paid to not talk about the Knicks on the record for a certain period of time, like the exit deal Bobby Valentine just signed in Boston?

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