Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, July 30, 2014

NYT: New Intensity, and Better Numbers, for Carmelo Anthony

Over at The Times, I talked about the marked improvement of both Melo and the Knicks writ large since Mike Woodson grabbed hold the reins:

Carmelo Anthony’s recent admission that the new coach Mike Woodson had succeeded in coaxing an admittedly dormant “energy” out of him – particularly on the defensive end – raised eyebrows and ire in equal measure. Those certain that Mike D’Antoni’s sudden resignation pointed to a mutiny by Anthony finally, it seemed, had proof.

But a funny thing happened on the way to an 8-1 start under Woodson: Everyone, it seems, has picked up the intensity.

Since D’Antoni’s departure three weeks ago, the Knicks have vaulted from 10th in the league in defensive efficiency to fifth, allowing just over 97 points per 100 possessions. That is just a a little behind Miami, and also not that far behind Boston, Chicago and the league-leading 76ers.

You can eat the whole sandwich here!

152 comments on “NYT: New Intensity, and Better Numbers, for Carmelo Anthony

  1. d-mar

    Good piece, Jim.

    Apropos of nothing, I read this morning that Chris Singleton purchased $10,000 worth of Megamillions tickets. Got my fingers crossed for you, bro!

  2. Juany8

    I don’t get why no one talks about how D’Antoni basically slapped Melo in the face when Lin came in. Instead of defending Melo from the “selfish” rumors and praising what he could add to Linsanity, he kept talking about his system and how it was running beautifully with everyone buying in. Then he makes Lin the centerpoint of the offense and gives him more freedom than both Stoudemire and Melo, even though the guy played in the D-League just a few weeks earlier and Melo had fully committed to trying to play point-forward to save the team from Bibby and TD.

    It would have been one thing if Lin kept playing like Russell Westbrook, but he plummeted pretty noticeably (he had a 25 PER at one point) and was suddenly playing hero ball more than anyone on the team. He was also a pretty terrible defender, yet every defensive breakdown was blamed on Melo and Stoudemire. It’s not really his fault, he’s still a rookie with plenty of potential, but rookies don’t get to take over a team’s offense when you have the primary offensive options from 2 of the better offensive teams of the past decade. Why in the hell would Melo, JR, Baron, Shump, and even Amar’e buy into anything D’Antoni says about playing within a system and playing tough D when other players get excused for it because they had a nice 10 game streak (Landry has also had every excuse in the world made for him for an impressive 40 game streak)

  3. Frank O.

    Jim, as usual, good read and food for thought.
    I have a minor issue tho. I think the rest of the team had energy, as evidenced by the Linsanity streak when defensive intensity was putting them over the top.
    But I think when your super star, the guy around which everything is built, seems to be dogging it (for lack of fitness or contentedness), when your emergent point guard refuses to pass to the superstar because he’s breaking plays and not in the right position, as we have seen reported, it can drag down a team.
    Let’s face it: If Melo is unhappy, the whole team suffers as much as when they succeed when Melo is hot, as was the case the other night. This would bolster ruruland’s view that how Melo goes so goes the team.
    I think Melo and D’Antoni had a major disagreement in approach. Mike D., probably mistakenly, was trying to build the team around Lin and Melo was being asked to kind of become another player on this team. I am beginning to believe that Melo was trying to fit in, but over time simply didn’t fit the role.

    Early on the team suffered because their two super stars started the season out of shape. Amare because he had to take six months off to heal, and Melo…well, because he came into the season out of shape.
    So, I’m not ready to accept the conclusion that somehow Mike wasn’t motivating his guys, or they weren’t playing for him. No one can say Jeffries, Shump, Chandler, Harrelson, or some of the other players were dogging it. I think a couple guys were surprisingly bad, TD for one, a couple guys were unsurprisingly bad, the undead specifically, but the rest played hard on a somewhat malformed team. And Amare-Melo underperformed.

    In short, it’s more complicated than using a simply if/then formula, ie,
    if the whole team is showing great energy now, then perhaps the whole team was unmotivated by Mike D. before and it wasn’t just Melo.
    We’re both speculating; I could be wrong. It’s just where my mind takes me.

  4. 2FOR18

    Juany8: I don’t get why no one talks about how D’Antoni basically slapped Melo in the face when Lin came in. Instead of defending Melo from the “selfish” rumors and praising what he could add to Linsanity, he kept talking about his system and how it was running beautifully with everyone buying in. Then he makes Lin the centerpoint of the offense and gives him more freedom than both Stoudemire and Melo, even though the guy played in the D-League just a few weeks earlier and Melo had fully committed to trying to play point-forward to save the team from Bibby and TD.It would have been one thing if Lin kept playing like Russell Westbrook, but he plummeted pretty noticeably (he had a 25 PER at one point) and was suddenly playing hero ball more than anyone on the team. He was also a pretty terrible defender, yet every defensive breakdown was blamed on Melo and Stoudemire. It’s not really his fault, he’s still a rookie with plenty of potential, but rookies don’t get to take over a team’s offense when you have the primary offensive options from 2 of the better offensive teams of the past decade. Why in the hell would Melo, JR, Baron, Shump, and even Amar’e buy into anything D’Antoni says about playing within a system and playing tough D when other players get excused for it because they had a nice 10 game streak (Landry has also had every excuse in the world made for him for an impressive 40 game streak)

    Maybe because they were 8-15 pre-Lin/with Melo starring and 7-0 with Lin/no Melo and Amare.
    I know the 7-0 isn’t supposed to count, but the above could be what MDA was thinking.

    Now having said that, it’s been made pretty clear that with the current personnel, MDA had to go, so we are where we are. Melo is buying in and the team is following, so go Knicks and get that 4th seed.

  5. 2FOR18

    Frank O.

    lol I think I just said basically the same thing as you, but in 500 less words.

    You fancy writers with your cogent thoughts – jeez… :)

  6. Frank O.

    Juany8:
    I don’t get why no one talks about how D’Antoni basically slapped Melo in the face when Lin came in. Instead of defending Melo from the “selfish” rumors and praising what he could add to Linsanity, he kept talking about his system and how it was running beautifully with everyone buying in. Then he makes Lin the centerpoint of the offense and gives him more freedom than both Stoudemire and Melo, even though the guy played in the D-League just a few weeks earlier and Melo had fully committed to trying to play point-forward to save the team from Bibby and TD.

    It would have been one thing if Lin kept playing like Russell Westbrook, but he plummeted pretty noticeably (he had a 25 PER at one point) and was suddenly playing hero ball more than anyone on the team. He was also a pretty terrible defender, yet every defensive breakdown was blamed on Melo and Stoudemire. It’s not really his fault, he’s still a rookie with plenty of potential, but rookies don’t get to take over a team’s offense when you have the primary offensive options from 2 of the better offensive teams of the past decade.

    I think you are right that Mike D. was too ideological about his system.
    I think you overstate Lin’s defensive issues. He gets 2 steals per 36, 4 boards per 36, 3.4 on the defensive end, and has done a pretty solid, albeit not stand out, job on D. And he is a rook.
    I also believe Lin’s PER was going to plummet because Amare and Melo had returned. Prior to their return the Knicks as a team were trying to create shots for Lin. Once they returned, neither of those players are focused on getting Lin better shots.
    With all that, his TS% is .552 and he’s getting 8 assists per 36, with a usage% of 28.

  7. jon abbey

    D’Antoni was in a tricky, no-win situation when Amare/Melo came back, but the point is he should have been way more flexible even before Lin. it didn’t take that long to realize how bad the PG options were pre-Lin, a PG-centric system just wasn’t possible.

    and actually my main issue with him isn’t even the system, it’s caring about the little things: plays coming out of timeouts, going offense/defense at the end of quarters, etc. and some bigger things, the switching everything on D was clearly crazy/idiotic even to a casual observer, yet he stuck with that way too long also.

  8. outoftowner

    Juany8:
    I don’t get why no one talks about how D’Antoni basically slapped Melo in the face when Lin came in.

    Let’s review:

    1. Player stabs his teammates in the back, asks to be traded from contender to .500 team so his wife’s reality TV career can get a boost.
    2. Player holds team hostage for 6 months while this is resolved.
    3. Player gets everything he asked for – his team, his market, his max contract.
    4. Player proceeds to show up to training camp the next year out of shape and put up shooting numbers that would make Monta Ellis blush.
    5. Player complains that he’s not getting the most shots on the team, starts breaking plays on the court to give himself more touches.
    6. Coach resigns / is fired because he cannot get player to submit to team concept.
    7. Player publicly admits he wasn’t trying as hard as he could for said coach.

    …and D’Antoni was the one who slapped Melo in the face??

  9. TelegraphedPass

    Why should he? He was brought aboard to apply the offensive system he created. The one that stands as one of the more dominant in NBA history. He was forced to deal with a constantly shifting group of players. Was the answer really to adopt a new system? Why was he even there, then?

    And the switching was a philosophy brought by Woody, I believe.

  10. TelegraphedPass

    outoftowner: Let’s review:1. Player stabs his teammates in the back, asks to be traded from contender to .500 team so his wife’s reality TV career can get a boost.2. Player holds team hostage for 6 months while this is resolved.3. Player gets everything he asked for – his team, his market, his max contract.4. Player proceeds to show up to training camp the next year out of shape and put up shooting numbers that would make Monta Ellis blush.5. Player complains that he’s not getting the most shots on the team, starts breaking plays on the court to give himself more touches.6. Coach resigns / is fired because he cannot get player to submit to team concept.7. Player publicly admits he wasn’t trying as hard as he could for said coach.…and D’Antoni was the one who slapped Melo in the face??

    There is so much over-simplification and outright lying here I don’t even

  11. Frank O.

    And since you brought up Westbrook, let’s compare Russell’s first full year with Lin’s first full year.

    in 2009, Westbrook did this:
    TS% .489, eFG% .414, STL% 2.1, Usage% 25.8, Assist/36 5.9, pts/36 16.9

    This year, Lin has done this:
    TS% .552, eFG% .478, STL% 3, Usage% 27.8, Assists/36 8.2, pts/36 19.6.

    Westbrook earned $3.7 million that year. Lin earns $762K this year.

  12. Frank O.

    jon abbey:
    D’Antoni was in a tricky, no-win situation when Amare/Melo came back, but the point is he should have been way more flexible even before Lin. it didn’t take that long to realize how bad the PG options were pre-Lin, a PG-centric system just wasn’t possible.

    and actually my main issue with him isn’t even the system, it’s caring about the little things: plays coming out of timeouts, going offense/defense at the end of quarters, etc. and some bigger things, the switching everything on D was clearly crazy/idiotic even to a casual observer, yet he stuck with that way too long also.

    He was too laissez faire in game management. That’s become hugely apparent

  13. Frank O.

    2FOR18:
    Frank O.

    lol I think I just said basically the same thing as you, but in 500 less words.

    You fancy writers with your cogent thoughts – jeez…:)

    Ha!
    The devil is in the details, man. lol

  14. TelegraphedPass

    outoftowner: Let’s review:1. Player stabs his teammates in the back, asks to be traded from contender to .500 team so his wife’s reality TV career can get a boost.2. Player holds team hostage for 6 months while this is resolved.3. Player gets everything he asked for – his team, his market, his max contract.4. Player proceeds to show up to training camp the next year out of shape and put up shooting numbers that would make Monta Ellis blush.5. Player complains that he’s not getting the most shots on the team, starts breaking plays on the court to give himself more touches.6. Coach resigns / is fired because he cannot get player to submit to team concept.7. Player publicly admits he wasn’t trying as hard as he could for said coach.…and D’Antoni was the one who slapped Melo in the face??

    1. Melo let his team know he intended on leaving after this season, as is his right as a free agent. This allowed Denver to gameplan around his exit, rather than lose everything when he walked.
    2. Team suffers while it searches for the best deal possible and Melo’s status up in the air.
    3. This actually happened.
    4. We won’t talk about the injuries then, yes? That would weaken the slander.
    5. Complained when? Broke plays to put himself in better scoring position? He has been a scorer he whole career and wasn’t in the role he wanted. Certainly valid to think this was a poor decision on Melo’s part, but hardly worthy of demonizing.
    6. Coach resigned because his players didn’t fit his system well and it made both he and Melo look bad. As evidenced by the many people who call him a
    one-trick pony.”
    7. You’re spinning quotes to sell your point now.

  15. 2FOR18

    jon abbey:
    D’Antoni was in a tricky, no-win situation when Amare/Melo came back, but the point is he should have been way more flexible even before Lin. it didn’t take that long to realize how bad the PG options were pre-Lin, a PG-centric system just wasn’t possible.

    But didn’t MDA do just that when he went with the point forward thing?

  16. TelegraphedPass

    outoftowner: Which part was “outright lying”?

    The part where he left Denver for LaLa’s career. I’m roughly 100% sure that isn’t the primary reason why a competitive basketball player would try to play in a bigger market.

    Or the part where he “stabbed his teammates in the back.”

    Or the complaining.

    Or holding his team hostage.

  17. 2FOR18

    Frank O.: He was too laissez faire in game management. That’s become hugely apparent

    Absolutely. I’m still mad that he didn’t foul at the end of the Boston game when up 3.

  18. Frank O.

    TelegraphedPass: 1. Melo let his team know he intended on leaving after this season, as is his right as a free agent. This allowed Denver to gameplan around his exit, rather than lose everything when he walked.
    2. Team suffers while it searches for the best deal possible and Melo’s status up in the air.
    3. This actually happened.
    4. We won’t talk about the injuries then, yes? That would weaken the slander.
    5. Complained when? Broke plays to put himself in better scoring position? He has been a scorer he whole career and wasn’t in the role he wanted. Certainly valid to think this was a poor decision on Melo’s part, but hardly worthy of demonizing.
    6. Coach resigned because his players didn’t fit his system well and it made both he and Melo look bad. As evidenced by the many people who call him a
    one-trick pony.”
    7. You’re spinning quotes to sell your point now.

    I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle of these two views.
    One could argue Melo was making a sound business decision trying to get paid, and I suspect if this wasn’t so theoretically for many of us, we’d see we all would try to get as much money as possible understanding such pay days are few and far between.
    Frankly, I have a family. I’m in it to earn as much as I can for them, within reason. Melo’s approach proved reasonable. The team right now, I would argue, is better, deeper and has greater potential than it did pre-Melo.
    I’ve come a long way on this opinion. But this team is 9 solid players deep, and continues to win, even with their “stars” out or playing hurt.

  19. Frank O.

    TelegraphedPass: The part where he left Denver for LaLa’s career. I’m roughly 100% sure that isn’t the primary reason why a competitive basketball player would try to play in a bigger market.

    Or the part where he “stabbed his teammates in the back.”

    Or the complaining.

    Or holding his team hostage.

    Just a small note on the issue of civility: one lies when one knows the truth and says otherwise.
    someone is mistaken when the facts are not entirely apparent to them and they opine anyway and then it is found that the facts, in becoming more apparent, show that opinion to be wrong.

    in this case, you are both arguing matters of opinion since neither of you, I’m assuming, know Melo, his teammates, or the inside dynamics of those relationships.

    Never mind….

  20. TelegraphedPass

    One could certainly argue that this team has more potential for success than Felton/Fields/Gallo/STAT/W. Chandler/T. Chandler?/Novak

  21. 2FOR18

    Is a sign and trade of Amare for Eric Gordon allowable under the cap rules?
    I like Melo at the 4; Fields and Jeffries can handle the 3; Shump can get 30 mins as the 3rd guard.

  22. outoftowner

    Frank O.: I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle of these two views.
    One could argue Melo was making a sound business decision trying to get paid, and I suspect if this wasn’t so theoretically for many of us, we’d see we all would try to get as much money as possible understanding such pay days are few and far between.
    Frankly, I have a family. I’m in it to earn as much as I can for them, within reason. Melo’s approach proved reasonable. The team right now, I would argue, is better, deeper and has greater potential than it did pre-Melo.
    I’ve come a long way on this opinion. But this team is 9 solid players deep, and continues to win, even with their “stars” out or playing hurt.

    I agree with all this. I didn’t really have a problem with Melo wanting to play in New York, in fact I think its kind of progressive that he was willing to uproot his own career for his wife’s. Just wanted to show there’s two sides to the coin, Melo wasn’t innocent in any of this.

  23. TelegraphedPass

    @21 I’m more arguing that we not make declarations as to Melo’s intentions, especially when those declarations are a bit nonsensical. I don’t claim to know or understand Melo, but it seems far likelier that he came to NY primarily with his own career in mind. Chris Paul went to LA for similar reasons.

    I don’t see any evidence that supports him stabbing his teammates in the back or holding his team hostage, and that rhetoric is so extreme.

  24. TelegraphedPass

    2FOR18: Is a sign and trade of Amare for Eric Gordon allowable under the cap rules?I like Melo at the 4; Fields and Jeffries can handle the 3; Shump can get 30 mins as the 3rd guard.

    Jeffries isn’t a 3.

    Melo looked good at the 4 for two games, but he was matching up with Ersan Ilyasova and Ryan Anderson. What happens if he sees Pau Gasol, Zach Randolph, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh, etc?

    Why would New Orleans want to build around an uninsured 30 year old PF/C who seems to be losing steam and is having one of the worst seasons of his pro career? And their contracts don’t match up under the salary cap right now anyways. Maybe if Gordon re-signs for a max deal. But the above statement still stands.

  25. villainx

    Personally I can see a change in effort with the coaching change. D’Antoni giving Lin free rein and free pass while not supporting his stars and the other players generally creates a fairly demoralizing situation.

    Sure D’Antoni was partly brought in to implement his system, but he was also brought in to coach and to get his players to perform and give effort. He didn’t succeed to the degree that he or we wanted.

  26. TelegraphedPass

    villainx: Personally I can see a change in effort with the coaching change. D’Antoni giving Lin free rein and free pass while not supporting his stars and the other players generally creates a fairly demoralizing situation. Sure D’Antoni was partly brought in to implement his system, but he was also brought in to coach and to get his players to perform and give effort. He didn’t succeed to the degree that he or we wanted.

    I liked DA and think he gets unfairly criticized and I agree with everything you just said.

  27. Brian Cronin

    One could certainly argue that this team has more potential for success than Felton/Fields/Gallo/STAT/W. Chandler/T. Chandler?/Novak

    Why would anyone want to argue about that still? Let it go, people! The trade was a gazillion years ago (in basketball years). It’s old business.

  28. Doug

    TelegraphedPass:
    One could certainly argue that this team has more potential for success than Felton/Fields/Gallo/STAT/W. Chandler/T. Chandler?/Novak

    Especially since Felton has cratered this season. Portland fans HATE him.

  29. TelegraphedPass

    I can’t break the habit of living in the past, Brian. I’m trying, but it’s so hard…

  30. JLam

    There a video from a fan outing a month ago with the team and shows Fields singing and Shump rapping.
    Both talented and give the edge to Fields for his remarkable singing.

    However on the court, I like to see Shump have more minutes than Fields. He’s great defender and can show he can score now.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iLVTFjubo8

  31. Mulligan

    villainx:
    Personally I can see a change in effort with the coaching change. D’Antoni giving Lin free rein and free pass while not supporting his stars and the other players generally creates a fairly demoralizing situation.

    Sure D’Antoni was partly brought in to implement his system, but he was also brought in to coach and to get his players to perform and give effort. He didn’t succeed to the degree that he or we wanted.

    I am so done with this conversation, but I couldn’t resist. Pretty sure the only person that it was potentially demoralizing for was Melo. Everyone else seemed pretty jazzed, considering it was the first time the team was playing with real effort, people were starting to look like decent ball players, etc. Even Melo was saying the right things (and it was obvious that he was trying hard to fit in, but his rhythm got totally thrown off (plus lingering health problems) so it wasn’t working), so who knows if it was demoralizing for him. The more demoralizing part were the horrible losing streaks before and after Linsanity, the latter of which had more to do with strength of schedule.

  32. art vandelay

    Juany8: I don’t get why no one talks about how D’Antoni basically slapped Melo in the face when Lin came in. Instead of defending Melo from the “selfish” rumors and praising what he could add to Linsanity, he kept talking about his system and how it was running beautifully with everyone buying in. Then he makes Lin the centerpoint of the offense and gives him more freedom than both Stoudemire and Melo, even though the guy played in the D-League just a few weeks earlier and Melo had fully committed to trying to play point-forward to save the team from Bibby and TD.It would have been one thing if Lin kept playing like Russell Westbrook, but he plummeted pretty noticeably (he had a 25 PER at one point) and was suddenly playing hero ball more than anyone on the team. He was also a pretty terrible defender, yet every defensive breakdown was blamed on Melo and Stoudemire. It’s not really his fault, he’s still a rookie with plenty of potential, but rookies don’t get to take over a team’s offense when you have the primary offensive options from 2 of the better offensive teams of the past decade. Why in the hell would Melo, JR, Baron, Shump, and even Amar’e buy into anything D’Antoni says about playing within a system and playing tough D when other players get excused for it because they had a nice 10 game streak (Landry has also had every excuse in the world made for him for an impressive 40 game streak)

    You make it sound like Melo STARTED to play hero ball as soon as Lin was incorporated into the offense as the starting PG. Melo was playing hero ball well before Lin´s arrival, and his hero ball antics were a major reason for our 8-15 record prior to Linsanity in the first place!

  33. 2FOR18

    TelegraphedPass: Jeffries isn’t a 3.

    Melo looked good at the 4 for two games, but he was matching up with Ersan Ilyasova and Ryan Anderson. What happens if he sees Pau Gasol, Zach Randolph, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh, etc?

    Why would New Orleans want to build around an uninsured 30 year old PF/C who seems to be losing steam and is having one of the worst seasons of his pro career? And their contracts don’t match up under the salary cap right now anyways. Maybe if Gordon re-signs for a max deal. But the above statement still stands.

    Not looking to argue, but I’m bored, so regarding your points:

    - Jeffries can certainly play D at the 3
    - It’s not like Amare can guard anybody anyway, but in your examples you can just put Jeffries at the 4 and Melo at the 3 if those match-ups vs Melo bother you
    - As to why N.O. would do this, I agree with your reasoning. But Gordon is a FA so they may want to do a sign and trade just so they have something to show for the CP3/Gordon fiasco.

  34. art vandelay

    TelegraphedPass: One could certainly argue that this team has more potential for success than Felton/Fields/Gallo/STAT/W. Chandler/T. Chandler?/Novak

    Dear lord I agree…why don´t we also bemoan the Rod Strickland for Mo Cheeks trade and assorted other debacles over the last 20 years…there comes a point where we just have to move on from debating the merits of past transactions and just analyze the current squad as it is, which won´t be changing at least until next offseason, thankfully!

  35. Mulligan

    What do people know about Jeremy Lamb? Brooklyn kid, projected as a high 2nd rounder – near 50% 3 point shooter both years in college. I’ll take it. Don’t watch college ball though, so I don’t know a thing about him.

  36. 2FOR18

    Doug: Especially since Felton has cratered this season. Portland fans HATE him.

    Did you see that he missed 2 free throws at the end of last night’s game, which cost the fans free chalupas?

  37. PaulStreetBoy

    no Lin tonight. i am not sure what is going on with his knee. hope it is just precautionary!

  38. TelegraphedPass

    @36 I’m not sure Jeffries has the lateral quickness to guard the 3. I agree that Amar’e is a horric defender but is Melo better suited to guard 4s? If you move Melo to the 3, then we’re back to a standard line-up.

  39. art vandelay

    PaulStreetBoy: no Lin tonight. i am not sure what is going on with his knee. hope it is just precautionary!

    Not a good sign in my book that 5 straight days off were not enough for a “sore” knee.

  40. Mulligan

    Mulligan:
    What do people know about Jeremy Lamb? Brooklyn kid, projected as a high 2nd rounder – near 50% 3 point shooter both years in college. I’ll take it. Don’t watch college ball though, so I don’t know a thing about him.

    Whoops, meant Doron Lamb. Too many Lambs!

  41. 2FOR18

    outoftowner: I agree with all this.I didn’t really have a problem with Melo wanting to play in New York, in fact I think its kind of progressive that he was willing to uproot his own career for his wife’s.Just wanted to show there’s two sides to the coin, Melo wasn’t innocent in any of this.

    “Progressive”? Is that what they’re calling being p—y whipped these days? Man I’m getting old.

  42. Robtachi

    Brian Cronin: Why would anyone want to argue about that still? Let it go, people! The trade was a gazillion years ago (in basketball years). It’s old business.

    I find it unbelievable that people still bemoan a trade in which the Knicks got one the the NBA’s best pure scorers for a system PG who is now washed up, a good stretch-4 who can’t stay healthy and has yet to break out as a lottery pick is expected to, a now overpaid SF over whom the player the Knicks traded for is an upgrade in every conceivable way, and some minor pieces in addition, all while NOT having to forfeit, at the time, their most promising young asset.

    The Nuggets should be filing a police report.

  43. Robtachi

    2FOR18: “Progressive”?Is that what they’re calling being p—y whipped these days?Man I’m getting old.

    If you think professional athletes make all their career decisions without any consideration for their wives, you’re either single or delusional.

  44. 2FOR18

    TelegraphedPass:
    @36 I’m not sure Jeffries has the lateral quickness to guard the 3. I agree that Amar’e is a horric defender but is Melo better suited to guard 4s? If you move Melo to the 3, then we’re back to a standard line-up.

    Yeah but then we have Eric Gordon, a shooting guard who can actually shoot!
    Basically I’m saying we would have an offense anchored by 3 playmakers who can all pass and handle the ball in Lin, Gordon and Melo, with our D anchored by Chandler and another forward.
    Just a thought.

  45. TelegraphedPass

    I like Doron Lamb. My only concern would be his stealing minutes from Shump and perhaps Landry. I think a big would be a better investment for this team.

  46. Mulligan

    TelegraphedPass:
    I like Doron Lamb. My only concern would be his stealing minutes from Shump and perhaps Landry. I think a big would be a better investment for this team.

    Yeah, although possible harder to come by a quality big (unless there’s a Euro in the 2nd round?). Our 3pt shooting is a major weakness though.

    I think Shump will be the starter next year and Landry will back up the 2 & the 3. Unless Shump seriously improves his shooting (last 2 games notwishtanding), we need more 3pt shooting on this team. Don’t think we need to worry about a rookie taking him minutes.

  47. TelegraphedPass

    Mulligan: Yeah, although possible harder to come by a quality big (unless there’s a Euro in the 2nd round?). Our 3pt shooting is a major weakness though.I think Shump will be the starter next year and Landry will back up the 2 & the 3. Unless Shump seriously improves his shooting (last 2 games notwishtanding), we need more 3pt shooting on this team. Don’t think we need to worry about a rookie taking him minutes.

    I’ve watched Doron play a good amount. He reminds me of a less explosive Marcus Thornton. I’m not sure I love that cluttering our guard rotation.

    Have you seen John Jenkins out of Vandy? I have MUCH more faith in his shooting potential at the NBA level and I think, if we’re looking for a shooter, he fits better. Reminds me of JJ Redick.

  48. TelegraphedPass

    As far as bigs, Robert Sacre from Gonzaga looks like he should be around the mid-second round. He’s not very athletic but big and could log time at the PF and the C. He can create for himself a little bit and is a good shooter. I’d be interested in him if he’s available.

  49. Brian Cronin

    Dear lord I agree…why don´t we also bemoan the Rod Strickland for Mo Cheeks trade and assorted other debacles over the last 20 years…there comes a point where we just have to move on from debating the merits of past transactions and just analyze the current squad as it is, which won´t be changing at least until next offseason, thankfully!

    Egg-zactly.

  50. TelegraphedPass

    More draft guys: I really really like Marcus Denmon. I think he’ll be a second-round steal for someone. I’m not sure if that someone should be NY, but he’s so efficient I can’t write him off. Hugely underrated.

  51. villainx

    Looks like a double-edged sword when opposing teams come to NY to play. Either they want to use NYC as a showcase and throw up huge numbers, or they party it up.

  52. art vandelay

    villainx: Looks like a double-edged sword when opposing teams come to NY to play. Either they want to use NYC as a showcase and throw up huge numbers, or they party it up.

    Haha…remember when the weasel Team President from 2004-2008 whose name we won´t mention on this blog used to petition the NBA to assign mid-day sunday ballgames @ MSG strictly to take advantage of opposing teams´ sluggish ways after partying it up saturday nights in NYC? Really worked out for us, though!

  53. thenamestsam

    TelegraphedPass:
    I like Doron Lamb. My only concern would be his stealing minutes from Shump and perhaps Landry. I think a big would be a better investment for this team.

    I agree that a big is the appropriate draft priority. While it certainly partly depends on whether JR and/or Baron want to return, the Knicks will still have some depth in the backcourt next year, especially because I still believe there’s a good chance Fields and/or TD will recover their strokes enough to be valuable rotation players.

    On the other hand the front court looks a little thin to me. Jeffries is a FA and injury prone. We may have to get used to Amare being more of a 50-60 game a year player than an 80 game a year player. Once the back starts becoming a recurring problem things rarely improve from there. And we’ve seen that while TC is as tough as they come his play style is always going to mean he’s a bit dinged up. Some people really like Harrelson and I think he’s fine as a 4th or 5th big, but I don’t see him as more than that. Jordan has talent, but he’s a lottery ticket at this point. I’d try to get another ticket in this draft.

  54. JK47

    Ray Felton: sucks
    Timofey Mozgov: sucks
    Danilo Gallinari: brittle
    Wilson Chandler: sucks
    Anthony Randolph: sucks

  55. ephus

    With Lin out tonight, does Woodson give Bibby or Toney Douglas the minutes at back up PG? What happens if BD’s hamstring acts up? I do not think that you can get away with Bibby trying to play defense on Teague for extended minutes.

  56. jon abbey

    JK47:
    Ray Felton: sucks
    Timofey Mozgov: sucks
    Danilo Gallinari: brittle
    Wilson Chandler: sucks
    Anthony Randolph: sucks

    three draft picks too, it would be nice as someone said above if we could buy a couple of those back…

    another nice side effect of this winning streak is that it’s lowering our draft position for the pick Houston will get, and especially since it looks like there’s a big dropoff mid-first round this year, that currently looks like it will hurt less than it did at the tail end of the D’Antoni era (when it might have been as high as 9 or 10).

  57. thenamestsam

    What about Fab Melo as a potential draft prospect? He’s super raw offensively but we don’t run anything for our centers as it is and he could immediately provide some impact on the defensive end. .

  58. Juany8

    ephus:
    With Lin out tonight, does Woodson give Bibby or Toney Douglas the minutes at back up PG?What happens if BD’s hamstring acts up?I do not think that you can get away with Bibby trying to play defense on Teague for extended minutes.

    Honestly I think he should let Shump play it with JR. As long as Novak is also out there, that lineup can put up some points while playing solid D. Mike Bibby adds absolutely nothing, he can’t even make wide open 3′s.

  59. er

    How many more draft picks do u need?
    L Fields 2nd yr
    Lin 2nd yr
    Shump rookie
    Harrelson rookie

    jon abbey: three draft picks too, it would be nice as someone said above if we could buy a couple of those back…

    another nice side effect of this winning streak is that it’s lowering our draft position for the pick Houston will get, and especially since it looks like there’s a big dropoff mid-first round this year, that currently looks like it will hurt less than it did at the tail end of the D’Antoni era (when it might have been as high as 9 or 10).

  60. 2FOR18

    ephus:
    With Lin out tonight, does Woodson give Bibby or Toney Douglas the minutes at back up PG?What happens if BD’s hamstring acts up?I do not think that you can get away with Bibby trying to play defense on Teague for extended minutes.

    I have a bad feeling about tonight. Missing 3 key players, plus Melo and Baron are very banged up. And they know they have to play at home tomorrow, so if they get down big they might just have to mail it in. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the players tore up the ATL last night. If I were a betting man, I would fade the Knicks tonight.

  61. cgreene

    2FOR18: I have a bad feeling about tonight. Missing 3 key players, plus Melo and Baron are very banged up.And they know they have to play at home tomorrow, so if they get down big they might just have to mail it in.Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the players tore up the ATL last night.If I were a betting man, I would fade the Knicks tonight.

    On the flip side there could be a little Win One for Woody tonight going back to his stomping grounds.

  62. art vandelay

    2FOR18: I have a bad feeling about tonight. Missing 3 key players, plus Melo and Baron are very banged up. And they know they have to play at home tomorrow, so if they get down big they might just have to mail it in. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the players tore up the ATL last night. If I were a betting man, I would fade the Knicks tonight.

    If I were a betting man I would bet against the Knicks simply based on tonight being a “Friday Night Knicks” matchup, and basically every time they play Friday night for that matter.

  63. JK47

    It’s a road game against a tough opponent. We should be pretty psyched if we can manage to win this one.

  64. villainx

    This is likely the most important game of the season. As well as a statement game for the Knicks and Carmelo. So…

  65. TelegraphedPass

    thenamestsam: What about Fab Melo as a potential draft prospect? He’s super raw offensively but we don’t run anything for our centers as it is and he could immediately provide some impact on the defensive end. .

    I’m not sure he’ll be on the board, but if he slips to us he would be a really nice pickup to spell Tyson. He’s so long. I still like Sacre and his shooting touch for the second unit, but wouldn’t mind another Melo at all.

  66. Mulligan

    villainx:
    This is likely the most important game of the season. As well as a statement game for the Knicks and Carmelo. So…

    Ha – how many times have we said that this year?

  67. Will the Thrill

    If Fab Melo falls to us, that would be a great pick-up and a perfect back-up center for Tyson. His shooting isn’t all that bad actually, he can hit the mid-range shot and more importantly make his free throws. There was such a dramatic difference between his game last year and his game this year and I have to believe that he will keep improving as a player. He is pretty bone-headed though…

  68. Will the Thrill

    Hopefully Atlanta puts up another clunker like they have done multiple times in the past few seasons. The Hawks and the Magic have some of the biggest blowout losses of any “good” team that I can remember.

  69. Gideon Zaga

    ONE THING, in relation to Dantoni, that most of you forget that I always said was that Dantoni didn’t need a pg to win this season, he only needed a pg to run his system. Give Melo, Amare and Tyson to most coaches in the league and trust me they will know what to do. Evidence of this is that the same team is winning, while Lin is out and Baron not 100%. And seriously what else does Baron do but bring his veteran presence, superior ball handling skills and the occasional nice pass. He doesn’t affect plays that much. During the last game all he did was dump the ball to Melo (primary playmaker) and just moved the balll when it came back. This Dantoni couldn’t do? Are you kidding me? Pat Riley came to NY after having a successful run in LA with showtime, yes and that was pg driven offensive scheme as well. But the great Pat Riley recognized that he didn’t have Magic or a Magic type player so what did he do, he did what Coaches are supposed to do he coached to his teams strength and invented the Bad boy pistons defense 2.0 and an offense that featured his best player. Dantoni wasn’t brought here to implement a system, he’s not even a star coach, Dantoni was brought here to coach and if you really break it down, you’ll realize he did a poor job at coaching. The man didnt even deserve to quit like he did, he deserved to be fired and fired again.

  70. villainx

    Serious questions, wouldn’t Fab Melo be Jerome Jordon 2?

    And is there anyway to develop a player like Jerome Jordon? Is most of his value tied to be a good practice player?

  71. johnno

    I’m pretty sure that the question of who the Knicks should take in this year’s draft is a moot point. They don’t have a first round pick and I’m pretty sure they traded away their second round pick as part of jettisoning Turiaf. They also paid someone $3 million (I forget who) in the Tyson Chandler cap clearing moves. I think that, under the new CBA, you can only use a total $3 million a year in trades instead of $3 million per trade. Since the Knicks used their $3 million, I don’t think that they can buy a pick so, unless they are trading someone currently on the roster for a pick, I think they will be sitting this draft out. Don’t feel bad, though. It could be worse. You could be a Nets fan sitting in Prudential Center watching the Blazers use your pick (which, if the draft were held today, would be no worse than 6th in the draft) to draft a future star and then watching the guy you traded that pick for (Gerald Wallace) opt out of his contract and go somewhere else.

  72. Juany8

    villainx:
    Serious questions, wouldn’t Fab Melo be Jerome Jordon 2?

    And is there anyway to develop a player like Jerome Jordon? Is most of his value tied to be a good practice player?

    Most rookie second rounders don’t get playing time like the Knicks’ run of recent picks. He’ll have some time to develop, Chandler wasn’t all that great as a rookie either.

  73. villainx

    I ask regarding Jerome Jordon because it seems most of the time, project type centers either never develop or never really get a chance to develop.

    If Jerome Jordon is useful for 5-10 minutes per game, it likely would have some positive impact, is the reason why I ask. Or is throwing Jeffries or Harrelson to spell Chandler more important.

  74. d-mar

    I know we may be due for a clunker tonite, but I feel like with the way we’ve been playing defense lately, we can be right there at the end even if shots aren’t falling. Plus we have half the building cheering for ny,which doesn’t hurt.

  75. Doug

    Gideon Zaga:
    ONE THING, in relation to Dantoni, that most of you forget that I always said was that Dantoni didn’t need a pg to win this season, he only needed a pg to run his system. GiveMelo, AmareandTyson to mostcoaches in theleague andtrustmethey will know what to do. Evidence of this is that the same team is winning, while Lin is out and Baron not 100%. And seriously what else does Baron do but bring his veteran presence, superior ball handling skills and the occasional nice pass. He doesn’t affect plays that much. During the last game all he did was dump the ball to Melo (primary playmaker) and just moved the balll when it came back. This Dantoni couldn’t do? Are you kidding me? Pat Riley came to NY after having a successful run in LA with showtime, yes and that was pg driven offensive scheme as well. But the great Pat Riley recognized that he didn’t have Magic or a Magic type player so what did he do, he did what Coaches are supposed to do he coached to his teams strength and invented the Bad boy pistons defense 2.0andanoffense that featured his best player. Dantoni wasn’t brought here to implement a system, he’s not even a star coach, Dantoni was brought here to coach and if you really break it down, you’ll realize he did a poor job at coaching. The man didnt even deserve to quit like he did, he deserved to be fired and fired again.

    http://tinyurl.com/7mgcju8

  76. 2FOR18

    johnno:
    I’m pretty sure that the question of who the Knicks should take in this year’s draft is a moot point.They don’t have a first round pick and I’m pretty sure they traded away their second round pick as part of jettisoning Turiaf.They also paid someone $3 million (I forget who) in the Tyson Chandler cap clearing moves.I think that, under the new CBA, you can only use a total $3 million a year in trades instead of $3 million per trade.Since the Knicks used their $3 million, I don’t think that they can buy a pick so, unless they are trading someone currently on the roster for a pick, I think they will be sitting this draft out.Don’t feel bad, though.It could be worse.You could be a Nets fan sitting in Prudential Center watching the Blazers use your pick (which, if the draft were held today, would be no worse than 6th in the draft) to draft a future star and then watching the guy you traded that pick for (Gerald Wallace) opt out of his contract and go somewhere else.

    Man, what a depressing team to be a fan of. They will be 40 mil(?) under the cap and no one wants to play there. It’s better than Newark, but who the hell wants to go the ass end of Brooklyn where there’s nothing going on to watch a game? No one from Jersey will go there, so that market is out.

  77. Brian Cronin

    I know we may be due for a clunker tonite, but I feel like with the way we’ve been playing defense lately, we can be right there at the end even if shots aren’t falling. Plus we have half the building cheering for ny,which doesn’t hurt.

    With the current intensity on defense from this squad, they’re almost always in the game no matter what else happens. Then they just hopefully hit some timely shots. It is a lot like 90′s Knicks in that regard. So I don’t think they can be counted out of any game right now. Hopefully they kick Atlanta’s ass like they did earlier in the season.

  78. johnno

    2FOR18: Man, what a depressing team to be a fan of. They will be 40 mil(?) under the cap and no one wants to play there. It’s better than Newark, but who the hell wants to go the ass end of Brooklyn where there’s nothing going on to watch a game? No one from Jersey will go there, so that market is out.

    Here’s what’s potentially really depressing — if Wallace bolts, and D-Will bolts, they will have given up 4 lottery picks (Favors and 2 picks for Williams and 1 for Wallace) and gotten absolutely zero in return.

  79. 2FOR18

    The best part of watching Atlanta games is hearing the moans from the 30 fans on hand every time Josh Smith starts to shoot a jumper. I bet Woodson will be laughing inside whenever Smith winds up for one of his shot puts.

  80. Brian Cronin

    Here’s what’s potentially really depressing — if Wallace bolts, and D-Will bolts, they will have given up 4 lottery picks (Favors and 2 picks for Williams and 1 for Wallace) and gotten absolutely zero in return.

    You have to figure that they’ll find a way to do a sign and trade with D-Will at the very least, no? But yeah, extremely depressing time for Nets fans. Which is cool by me. I did not want them to be really hot coming into Brooklyn.

  81. villainx

    I wouldn’t cry for the Nets, once they move to Brooklyn, I think they’ll be able to build a fan base and a decent team relatively soon. Might be tough going for a couple of years, but they should be able to grow.

    Hopefully they’ll come up with a better name once they move.

  82. 2FOR18

    johnno: Here’s what’s potentially really depressing — if Wallace bolts, and D-Will bolts, they will have given up 4 lottery picks (Favors and 2 picks for Williams and 1 for Wallace) and gotten absolutely zero in return.

    If anybody cared about the Nets, there would be an uproar over the Wallace trade – a worn down 29 year old guy who relies entirely on his athletic ability, who can’t shoot, jacking up 3s. Ugh.

  83. johnno

    Brian Cronin: You have to figure that they’ll find a way to do a sign and trade with D-Will at the very least, no?

    Like the Raptors and Cavs were able to sign and trade Bosh and LeBron? They got relatively worthless draft picks from Miami. Or like the Suns were able to do for Stoudemire? Once he opts out, he’s unrestricted. The planets really need to align properly for a team to get anything out of signing and trading an unrestricted guy. Williams supposedly wants to play for the Mavs, who will have cap space to sign him. Even if they want to do a trade with the Mavs, they’re not getting stars or lottery picks from the Mavs.

  84. Robtachi

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: You must be new to the site.

    Are we really going to continue bludgeoning this poor, mutilated corpse of what was at one time a run-of-the-mill dead horse? Based on talent, past performance, expected output and most, if not all, offensive measurements, Carmelo Anthony is one of the 10 best scorers in the NBA. Fact.

    I’m not talking about overall impact on the team, I’m not talking about the defensive side of the ball or his attitude in the huddle. I specifically said “scorer”, because let’s face it, that’s why he’s here in the NBA and in New York. To score. Also fact.

    If you want to sit there and argue that Wilson Chandler or Gallo have a better offensive game, go right ahead – your Melo scorn is no mystery. I will sit here, laughing softly to myself at the absurdity of it all.

  85. 2FOR18

    villainx:
    I wouldn’t cry for the Nets, once they move to Brooklyn, I think they’ll be able to build a fan base and a decent team relatively soon. Might be tough going for a couple of years, but they should be able to grow.

    Hopefully they’ll come up with a better name once they move.

    The Brooklyn Hipsters? The cheerleaders can wear skinny jeans, the players must have goatees, they can have poetry readings at halftime and the fans will snap their fingers instead of clap.

  86. TelegraphedPass

    johnno: I’m pretty sure that the question of who the Knicks should take in this year’s draft is a moot point. They don’t have a first round pick and I’m pretty sure they traded away their second round pick as part of jettisoning Turiaf.

    Our second rounder this year is top-55 protected. So we will have a second rounder this year.

    @79 Jerome Jordan has low baskeball IQ due to starting playing ball at a later age. He has great physical tools defensively, but doesn’t quite harness them the way you’d like. Fab Melo is more polished and used to being the rock of a strong team defense. He successfully anchored the ‘Cuse D all year. Fab is also a more intense defender; Jerome lacks that quality.

  87. Robtachi

    2FOR18: Man, what a depressing team to be a fan of.They will be 40 mil(?) under the cap and no one wants to play there.It’s better than Newark, but who the hell wants to go the ass end of Brooklyn where there’s nothing going on to watch a game?No one from Jersey will go there, so that market is out.

    I actually kinda like where they’re going to be. The LIRR comes right in under there, there are decent shops, BAM, the neighborhood has been up-and-coming, it’s a short distance from Prospect Park and a very affluent area. I don’t think it’s a terrible decision. It’s just a terrible franchise moving there.

  88. 2FOR18

    Robtachi: Are we really going to continue bludgeoning this poor, mutilated corpse of what was at one time a run-of-the-mill dead horse? Based on talent, past performance, expected output and most, if not all, offensive measurements, Carmelo Anthony is one of the 10 best scorers in the NBA. Fact.

    I’m not talking about overall impact on the team, I’m not talking about the defensive side of the ball or his attitude in the huddle. I specifically said “scorer”, because let’s face it, that’s why he’s here in the NBA and in New York. To score. Also fact.

    If you want to sit there and argue that Wilson Chandler or Gallo have a better offensive game, go right ahead – your Melo scorn is no mystery. I will sit here, laughing softly to myself at the absurdity of it all.

    off the top of my head, 10 better scorers than Melo:
    Durant
    LeBron
    Harden
    Love
    Chris Paul
    Westbrook
    Pierce
    Ginobili
    D Howard
    Wade

  89. TelegraphedPass

    Re: Melo as a scorer

    Melo really gets his value as a wing scorer from the multitude of ways he can hurt you on offense. He’s an underrated passer for his position. He is one of the best SFs in the NBA at scoring in the post. He is normally a good midrange shooter. He’s a threat from deep. An argument could be made that Melo is truly one of the best scorers in the NBA. This year, he’s been really really bad.

  90. TelegraphedPass

    2FOR18: If anybody cared about the Nets, there would be an uproar over the Wallace trade – a worn down 29 year old guy who relies entirely on his athletic ability, who can’t shoot, jacking up 3s. Ugh.

    I think you’re cutting Gerald Wallace down a bit more than you should be. He’s a strong defender, and you never question his heart. He gives his all every game. He’s on the wrong side of the hill athletically, but not at the bottom. The Nets are hoping Wallace can convince D Will to hold out for them to sign a superstar in free agency. Not sure who they’re thinking of with Dwight gone for a year.

  91. ephus

    If the Knicks go with their starting lineup from the past two games, Landry Fields is going to have a difficult time d-ing up on Joe Johnson. I would not be surprised to see Shumpert switched over, with Fields moved back to Hinrich. I also think you could see Melo on Smith, Fields on Hinrich and Shumpert on Josh Smith.

  92. TelegraphedPass

    Gideon Zaga: ONE THING, in relation to Dantoni, that most of you forget that I always said was that Dantoni didn’t need a pg to win this season, he only needed a pg to run his system. Give Melo, Amare and Tyson to most coaches in the league and trust me they will know what to do. Evidence of this is that the same team is winning, while Lin is out and Baron not 100%. And seriously what else does Baron do but bring his veteran presence, superior ball handling skills and the occasional nice pass. He doesn’t affect plays that much. During the last game all he did was dump the ball to Melo (primary playmaker) and just moved the balll when it came back. This Dantoni couldn’t do? Are you kidding me? Pat Riley came to NY after having a successful run in LA with showtime, yes and that was pg driven offensive scheme as well. But the great Pat Riley recognized that he didn’t have Magic or a Magic type player so what did he do, he did what Coaches are supposed to do he coached to his teams strength and invented the Bad boy pistons defense 2.0 and an offense that featured his best player. Dantoni wasn’t brought here to implement a system, he’s not even a star coach, Dantoni was brought here to coach and if you really break it down, you’ll realize he did a poor job at coaching. The man didnt even deserve to quit like he did, he deserved to be fired and fired again.

    ONE THING, it isn’t as if Coach D’Antoni ever won Coach of the Year honors or created one of the strongest offensive systems in NBA history. It isn’t as if he didn’t force the league to develop new defensive schemes to stop his offense.

  93. ruruland

    2FOR18: off the top of my head, 10 better scorers than Melo:
    Durant
    LeBron
    Harden
    Love
    Chris Paul
    Westbrook
    Pierce
    Ginobili
    D Howard
    Wade

    What is the usage cut-off line?

  94. jon abbey

    there are not ten better scorers in the league than the Melo we saw against Orlando. the question is how often we will see that version, and if he can stay healthy.

  95. 2FOR18

    ruruland: What is the usage cut-off line?

    Honestly I was just thinking of players who I think score more efficiently and have the ability to do so if taking as many shots as Melo does. So while I did consider usage in a simplistic sense, I did not do so in a sophisticated sense. “better scorer” could use more specificity, as you are implying.

  96. JLam

    Knick trivia
    Who is the oldest knick on the current knick team roster ?
    A) Jared Jefferies
    B) Toney Douglas
    C) Mike Bibby

  97. ruruland

    art vandelay: You make it sound like Melo STARTED to play hero ball as soon as Lin was incorporated into the offense as the starting PG. Melo was playing hero ball well before Lin´s arrival, and his hero ball antics were a major reason for our 8-15 record prior to Linsanity in the first place!

    I know we should be done taking about this but I can’t resist.

    Melo was averaging around 4.5 assists per game pre-injury… He was doing that on a team that at the time was shooting around 25% from 3 (Excluding Melo’s decent shooting pre-injury), and with an immobile, and unable-to-make-midrange jumpers version of Amar’e…I’d venture to guess on a team with an average ability to shoot he’d have had 1,2, or even 3 more assists per.

    He’s now being lauded for his ability to pass out of double teams, to set up scoring….

    I’m just curious if people recognize that at the time, guys really weren’t able to help Melo much, which lead to Melo trying to score on his own….. and if there’s really anything wrong with that..

    If anyone remembers this: The argument at the time was that Melo should have continued to pass because eventually guys around him would improve. Outside of Shump, we haven’t seen that at all. It’s been the talent infusion that’s allowed Melo toappear to be a better decision-maker.

  98. johnno

    jon abbey: there are not ten better scorers in the league than the Melo we saw against Orlando. the question is how often we will see that version, and if he can stay healthy.

    Or the Melo we saw for the last 25 games of last year. He has had a rough year this year but is everyone forgetting what an offensive force he is when healthy? 2 for 18 — you think that DWIGHT HOWARD is a better scorer than Melo?!?! Seriously?? He has not had a single year in which he was as good a scorer as Melo’s worst year! James Harden? Really? You’re kidding, right? In Melo’s class as a scorer?? Say what you want about other aspects of his game but, in my opinion, the Melo that we have seen for 95% of his career is one of the top 4 most dynamic scorers in the league, along with LeBron, Durant and Kobe.

  99. ruruland

    2FOR18: Honestly I was just thinking of players who I think score more efficiently and have the ability to do so if taking as many shots as Melo does.So while I did consider usage in a simplistic sense, I did not do so in a sophisticated sense.“better scorer” could use more specificity, as you are implying.

    I think it’s a more complicated argument than you’re putting forth.

    Obviously Lebron, Wade, Durant, Love (and I watch a lot of his games and have no idea how), have proven to be more efficient scorers over the long haul as high-usage, premier top option players. You throw in Howard I suppose.

    I suppose you can say Paul, but I’d argue so much of his scoring is dependent on his amazing passing and ballhandling ability (which sets up really easy shots for him over the course of a game) you might as throw in Nash and any pg who scorers efficiently by passing first….

    To me, that makes them great point guards, not great scorers.

    The rest of the guys though, to me, are not necessarily top option players as Melo has been throughout his career.

    I think there’s a variety of factors — not just the ones associated with decreased efficiency with increased usage—-that have to do with how defenses treat these kind of players.

  100. johnno

    ruruland: I think it’s a more complicated argument than you’re putting forth. Obviously Lebron, Wade, Durant, Love (and I watch a lot of his games and have no idea how), have proven to be more efficient scorers over the long haul as high-usage, premier top option players. You throw in Howard I suppose. I suppose you can say Paul, but I’d argue so much of his scoring is dependent on his amazing passing and ballhandling ability (which sets up really easy shots for him over the course of a game) you might as throw in Nash and any pg who scorers efficiently by passing first….To me, that makes them great point guards, not great scorers. The rest of the guys though, to me, are not necessarily top option players as Melo has been throughout his career. I think there’s a variety of factors — not just the ones associated with decreased efficiency with increased usage—-that have to do with how defenses treat these kind of players.

    Which Dwight Howard are people calling a great scorer? The one who can’t hit a 12 foot jump shot, the one who has developed virtually no low post moves in his entire time in the league, the one who shoots 49% from the foul line this year or the one who disappears in the fourth quarter because he’s afraid to touch the ball in clutch situations because he’s such a lousy foul shooter? Just wondering…

  101. jon abbey

    Robert Silverman:
    I’m STILL peeved about the Cheeks-Strickland trade…

    Strickland was talented but a cancer, I wouldn’t stress too much about that one.

    giving away Camby, now that’s a different story.

  102. 2FOR18

    ruruland: I think it’s a more complicated argument than you’re putting forth.

    Obviously Lebron, Wade, Durant, Love (and I watch a lot of his games and have no idea how), have proven to be more efficient scorers over the long haul as high-usage, premier top option players. You throw in Howard I suppose.

    I suppose you can say Paul, but I’d argue so much of his scoring is dependent on his amazing passing and ballhandling ability (which sets up really easy shots for him over the course of a game) you might as throw in Nash and any pg who scorers efficiently by passing first….

    To me, that makes them great point guards, not great scorers.

    The rest of the guys though, to me, are not necessarily top option players as Melo has been throughout his career.

    I think there’s a variety of factors — not just the ones associated with decreased efficiency with increased usage—-that have to do with how defenses treat these kind of players.

    OK, so let’s take the pgs off of my list, and take off ginobili and harden since they’ve never had to be the main guy. And add Dirk and Kobe. So based on the above, the most I can legit come up with are 8 if you exclude pgs. If I include pgs I would include Westbrook and Paul to make it 10.

    Durant
    LeBron
    Love
    Pierce
    D Howard
    Wade
    Dirk
    Kobe

  103. 2FOR18

    jon abbey: Strickland was talented but a cancer, I wouldn’t stress too much about that one.

    giving away Camby, now that’s a different story.

    Camby and Nene for McDyess can’t be topped, can it?

  104. alsep73

    2FOR18: Camby and Nene for McDyess can’t be topped, can it?

    The Curry trade might be worse, depending on who we would’ve taken with those picks.

  105. dubisaweapon

    2FOR18: It’s better than Newark, but who the hell wants to go the ass end of Brooklyn where there’s nothing going on to watch a game? No one from Jersey will go there, so that market is out.

    Have you even been to Brooklyn?

    That arena is going up about five minutes on the other side of the Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridges. The LIRR and almost every single subway line stops right across the street at Atlantic Avenue. Fort Greene and Park Slope are loaded with bars and restaurants. And I doubt I’m the only person on Knickerblogger who lives within walking distance.

    Sure, the team definitely sucks and all. But I won’t let you talk trash about Brooklyn like that.

  106. BigBlueAL

    Robert Silverman:
    I’m STILL peeved about the Cheeks-Strickland trade…

    What the hell happened to Mark Jackson during the 89-90 and 90-91 seasons that made the Knicks trade for Mo Cheeks?? He mustve really been depressed when Pitino left I guess.

  107. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, where the Nets are going to be playing is really one of the most convenient spots in all of Brooklyn. It’s a great spot for a team to be. Almost too good, which is why Robert Moses wouldn’t let the Dodgers move there, as he thought it was too valuable real estate to let an arena take up the space.

  108. ephus

    2FOR18: Camby and Nene for McDyess can’t be topped, can it?

    Stevie Francis for Trevor Ariza and Penny Hardaway’s expiring contract was worse and more inexplicable. Even at his best, Francis was a clone of Marbury. I cannot imagine a scenario where Francis and Marbury could have thrived next to each other.

    In trading for McDyess, the Knicks were betting that he could recover from his knee surgery. A healthy McDyess might be worth Camby (even though he provided defensive value for far longer than expected) and Nene (a project big man). I am not saying that it was a good trade, but at least it was defensible.

    From what I have read (Simmons’ interview of Isiah in the Book of Basketball), Isiah defended all of his trades except for acquiring Stevie Francis, which he stated Larry Brown insisted upon.

  109. yoda4554

    @111 Carmelo Anthony, past two seasons–23 points per game, TS%= ~53%.

    Dwight Howard, past two season–22 points per game, TS%=~60%

    Yes, Howard is a better scorer than Anthony, and the past two seasons it’s not really been remotely close.

  110. JLam

    JLam:
    Knick trivia
    Who is the oldest knick on the current knick team roster ?
    A) JaredJefferies
    B) Toney Douglas
    C) Mike Bibby

    It’s all of the above but TD is the best answer

  111. ruruland

    yoda4554:
    @111 Carmelo Anthony, past two seasons–23 points per game, TS%= ~53%.

    Dwight Howard, past two season–22 points per game, TS%=~60%

    Yes, Howard is a better scorer than Anthony, and the past two seasons it’s not really been remotely close.

    Well, these 35 games or so make Carmelo look pretty awful, and he’s played awful, don’t want to go down that road again… If most of this team comes back next year I can see him besting the 95 game stretch ( the end of his third season and the games in ’07 prior to the Iverson acquisition) where he had a 573 TS% on much higher usage than Dwight — and sustaining that level of play or higher (on lower usage) so long as these pieces remain in place.

  112. 2FOR18

    dubisaweapon:
    2FOR18: It’s better than Newark, but who the hell wants to go the ass end of Brooklyn where there’s nothing going on to watch a game?No one from Jersey will go there, so that market is out.

    Have you even been to Brooklyn?

    That arena is going up about five minutes on the other side of the Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridges.The LIRR and almost every single subway line stops right across the street at Atlantic Avenue.Fort Greene and Park Slope are loaded with bars and restaurants.And I doubt I’m the only person on Knickerblogger who lives within walking distance.

    Sure, the team definitely sucks and all.But I won’t let you talk trash about Brooklyn like that.

    Yeah, I used to live in East New York. In fairness, that would really be the ass end of Brooklyn.
    It’s nice for you that you can walk to the new place, but you’re not gonna fill up an arena just with hipsters looking for a place to be seen.

  113. JLam

    The answer is Toney Douglas. Why you ask? Bibby might be the oldest player in age but he is not oldest serving Knick. There are many other players who have been a Knick player for longer periods of time
    Then why not JJ? Yes he been with the Knicks the longest however he got traded and then rejoin the team last year so he is not the oldest member of the CURRENT squad
    TD is the eldest member of the current team All his teammates have joined him since he become a Knick 3 years ago

  114. er

    You are outta your ever-loving mind

    2FOR18: off the top of my head, 10 better scorers than Melo:
    Durant
    LeBron
    Harden
    Love
    Chris Paul
    Westbrook
    Pierce
    Ginobili
    D Howard
    Wade

  115. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    TelegraphedPass: I think you’re cutting Gerald Wallace down a bit more than you should be. He’s a strong defender, and you never question his heart. He gives his all every game. He’s on the wrong side of the hill athletically, but not at the bottom. The Nets are hoping Wallace can convince D Will to hold out for them to sign a superstar in free agency. Not sure who they’re thinking of with Dwight gone for a year.

    I was at the game on Wednesday night, and that dude looked awful. His three point shot is broken.

  116. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    er:
    You are outta your ever-loving mind

    Look at the numbers. They’re efficient as hell. Carmelo is not, especially this year.

    I’m not saying he’s a terrible player; he makes some really tough shots look really easy. But again with the availability heuristic: you’re much more likely to recall a tough shot that he sinks than the several that he misses.

  117. er

    Funny you pick his worst yr to say this? Kobe and Melos game is almost identical so what goes for Kobe goes for melo and be is the best post uP non big in the league

    2FOR18: OK, so let’s take the pgs off of my list, and take off ginobili and harden since they’ve never had to be the main guy.And add Dirk and Kobe.So based on the above, the most I can legit come up with are 8 if you exclude pgs.If I include pgs I would include Westbrook and Paul to make it 10.

    Durant
    LeBron
    Love
    Pierce
    D Howard
    Wade
    Dirk
    Kobe

  118. max fisher-cohen

    Robtachi: Are we really going to continue bludgeoning this poor, mutilated corpse of what was at one time a run-of-the-mill dead horse? Based on talent, past performance, expected output and most, if not all, offensive measurements, Carmelo Anthony is one of the 10 best scorers in the NBA. Fact.

    Rob, I respect ruruland because he backs up his claims with facts (even if sometimes it seems like he’s choosing a side and then picking the facts that support it). If you’re looking for a good scorer, you’re looking for a guy who has taken a lot of shots and converted them at a high rate. That’s what good scorers do. So if you’re looking for facts, you’re looking for high usage, high TS%. Here’s a list of players who fulfill that criteria.

    1) Kevin Martin
    2) D. Howard
    3) Durant
    4) Ginobili
    5) Lebron
    6) Wade
    7) Stoudemire
    8) Kevin Love
    9) Dirk Nowitzki
    10) Chris Paul
    11) Eric Gordon
    12) Paul Pierce
    13) Ray Allen

    I’m sure there are more. These guys are all great volume scorers, not necessarily better players than Anthony, but definitely better scorers. Anthony is a good volume scorer. To be a top 10-15 player, he has to do other things, things he has shown that he’s capable of and has been doing recently. These include passing the ball, rebounding, and playing defense. To become a great volume scorer, he’ll have to continue to reduce the post ups, especially from 20 feet away, and become a better 3 pt shooter.

    Your argument seems entirely based on being snide by suggesting people have some vendetta against Melo rather than an interest in seeing the Knicks win. That’s not gonna earn you many converts.

  119. johnno

    yoda4554: @111 Carmelo Anthony, past two seasons–23 points per game, TS%= ~53%.Dwight Howard, past two season–22 points per game, TS%=~60%Yes, Howard is a better scorer than Anthony, and the past two seasons it’s not really been remotely close.

    You can pick and choose stats (especially since you have chosen to include the worst 40 game offensive stretch in Melo’s career — take a look at their overall career numbers) but have you ever actually WATCHED Howard play? Seriously, in his entire career, have you EVER seen him carry his team offensively in the fourth quarter of a game? He’s a great defender and a very good rebounder but he is definitely NOT a top tier scorer. Nene has a much higher career true shooting percentage than both Howard and Melo. Does that mean that he’s a better scorer than both of them? Take a look at the career shooting percentages for Kobe and Paul Pierce. Melo’s career shooting percentage is better than both of them and he has scored 2.4ppg more than Pierce and only .9ppg less than Kobe. Using your logic, Melo is a better scorer than both of them. What about Harden and Ginobili, who someone on this thread called better scorers than Melo? He has a much higher career shooting percentage than both of them, and has averaged 9ppg more than Manu and 12ppg more than Harden. And the great Russell Westbrook? He’s a 43% career shooter. I’ll say it again — he has his faults, but a healthy Melo is a truly GREAT scorer.

  120. 2FOR18

    er:
    Funny you pick his worst yr to say this? Kobe and Melos game is almost identical so what goes for Kobe goes for melo and be is the best post uP non big in the league

    so now the criteria is best post up non big? OK, Melo is the best scoring post up non big married to someone Lala in the history of bball.

  121. Will the Thrill

    Lol melo has a much higher career shooting percentage than Harden and Ginobili? Yeah because that’s the only stat we should use to judge a players efficiency…

    johnno: You can pick and choose stats (especially since you have chosen to include the worst 40 game offensive stretch in Melo’s career — take a look at their overall career numbers) but have you ever actually WATCHED Howard play?Seriously, in his entire career, have you EVER seen him carry his team offensively in the fourth quarter of a game?He’s a great defender and a very good rebounder but he is definitely NOT a top tier scorer.Nene has a much higher career true shooting percentage than both Howard and Melo.Does that mean that he’s a better scorer than both of them?Take a look at the career shooting percentages for Kobe and Paul Pierce.Melo’s career shooting percentage is better than both of them and he has scored 2.4ppg more than Pierce and only .9ppg less than Kobe.Using your logic, Melo is a better scorer than both of them.What about Harden and Ginobili, who someone on this thread called better scorers than Melo?He has a much higher career shooting percentage than both of them, and has averaged 9ppg more than Manu and 12ppg more than Harden.And the great Russell Westbrook?He’s a 43% career shooter. I’ll say it again — he has his faults, but a healthy Melo is a truly GREAT scorer.

  122. johnno

    Will the Thrill: Lol melo has a much higher career shooting percentage than Harden and Ginobili? Yeah because that’s the only stat we should use to judge a players efficiency…

    I was merely responding to yoda’s comment that, since Howard has a higher true shooting percentage than Melo, he’s a better scorer “and it’s not even close.” If, in judging efficiency as a scorer, you include things like the ability to get to the foul line and make foul shots, Melo is pretty good at that too. I personally believe that a player’s “efficiency” numbers aren’t the best judge of how good a player is unless you consider them in context. Is Howard an “efficient” scorer? Yes, and so are Tyson Chandler and Nene. Is Howard pretty useless in the fourth quarter of a close game? Yes. Which is more important — his “efficiency” or his usefulness in the clutch?

  123. ruruland

    max fisher-cohen: Rob, I respect ruruland because he backs up his claims with facts (even if sometimes it seems like he’s choosing a side and then picking the facts that support it). If you’re looking for a good scorer, you’re looking for a guy who has taken a lot of shots and converted them at a high rate. That’s what good scorers do. So if you’re looking for facts, you’re looking for high usage, high TS%. Here’s a list of players who fulfill that criteria.

    1) Kevin Martin
    2) D. Howard
    3) Durant
    4) Ginobili
    5) Lebron
    6) Wade
    7) Stoudemire
    8) Kevin Love
    9) Dirk Nowitzki
    10) Chris Paul
    11) Eric Gordon
    12) Paul Pierce
    13) Ray Allen

    Your argument seems entirely based on being snide by suggesting people have some vendetta against Melo rather than an interest in seeing the Knicks win. That’s not gonna earn you many converts.

    Isn’t it something that a guy like Marti—-with a considerably higher career TS% than Durant, Wade, James, Kobe, Allen, Pierce, and everyone else on that list outside of Howard—-has only made the playoffs once, and it was the year he had his lowest usage?????

    Certainly people are going to counter with the one-dimensionality of his game compared to others….

    But it should give you pause because it’s not as though those are bad Rockets teams he’s played on…I think we need to stop and ask ourselves if and what these numbers are hiding….

  124. ruruland

    2FOR18: so now the criteria is best post up non big?OK, Melo is the best scoring post up non big married to someone Lala in the history of bball.

    How players score is an incredibly important component of their team’s success….

    Players who post-up and draw double teams or penetrate are far more valuable, IMHO, than guys who take advantage of players who create those opportunities. Today’s advanced stats, at least the ones used by this board, favor the latter in a pretty extreme way.

  125. max fisher-cohen

    Howard’s FT% has really hurt his value this year. It’s a big reason for his 40 point drop in TS% and 7 point drop in O-Rating. For this season, if the other team goes to hack-a-Howard, you’re right that Melo would probably be the better option, but if his FT% was up at 60% like previous seasons, Howard’s a much better option.

  126. dubisaweapon

    2FOR18: Yeah, I used to live in East New York.In fairness, that would really be the ass end of Brooklyn.
    It’s nice for you that you can walk to the new place, but you’re not gonna fill up an arena just with hipsters looking for a place to be seen.

    Well, I don’t wanna call your old hood the ass end of Brooklyn but it is definitely a trek to East New York. One thing for sure, the Nets could never fill up that arena in New Jersey even when they were dishing and swishing with J. Kidd, etc. Anything would be a step up.

    I’m not sure “hipsters” really like basketball. But aren’t there thousands and thousands of working class people in Brooklyn that might consider a lower-priced, closer-to-home alternative to the Knicks for a night out with the family?

  127. thenamestsam

    Continuing the Nets discussion I think they made a big mistake by desperately trying to make sure they’d be “relevant” as soon as possible in an effort to gain buzz before the move to Brooklyn. That’s what led to the shortsighted free agency moves and some bad trades. There’s no rush for them to be awesome right away because no matter what they’re not going to have a huge fanbase immediately. However there is a huge basketball loving fanbase in Brooklyn and the rest of the city that they can win over the course of the long haul, if they can build a consistent winner.

    They seem to have thought they were going to come to Brooklyn and be the toast of the city and make the Knicks irrelevant overnight, and that was idiocy. They should be hoarding lottery picks and trying to build a dynamic young team that has a chance to compete over a 10 year period. That’s the only way they’re going to have a chance to get on level footing with the Knicks in my opinion.

  128. 2FOR18

    dubisaweapon: Well, I don’t wanna call your old hood the ass end of Brooklyn but it is definitely a trek to East New York.One thing for sure, the Nets could never fill up that arena in New Jersey even when they were dishing and swishing with J. Kidd, etc.Anything would be a step up.

    I’m not sure “hipsters” really like basketball.But aren’t there thousands and thousands of working class people in Brooklyn that might consider a lower-priced, closer-to-home alternative to the Knicks for a night out with the family?

    Are the prices reasonable at the new place? I’ve been pretty much priced out of MSG.

  129. jon abbey

    ruruland: How players score is an incredibly important component of their team’s success….

    Players who post-up and draw double teams or penetrate are far more valuable, IMHO, than guys who take advantage of players who create those opportunities. Today’s advanced stats, at least the ones used by this board, favor the latter in a pretty extreme way.

    yep, exactly.

    and whether Melo is the best scorer or the 100th best scorer in the league, he’s the one we’ve got, so hopefully he keeps playing like he did Wednesday. tonight is even more on him with the likely head to head challenge against Josh Smith.

    someone start a game thread, I’m ready to rumble.

  130. thenamestsam

    dubisaweapon: Well, I don’t wanna call your old hood the ass end of Brooklyn but it is definitely a trek to East New York.One thing for sure, the Nets could never fill up that arena in New Jersey even when they were dishing and swishing with J. Kidd, etc.Anything would be a step up.

    I’m not sure “hipsters” really like basketball.But aren’t there thousands and thousands of working class people in Brooklyn that might consider a lower-priced, closer-to-home alternative to the Knicks for a night out with the family?

    Exactly, the Hipster thing is an incredibly reductive view of Brooklyn. It’s a hugely diverse borough. And I think people on this board have a tendency to dismiss the Nets threat for a simple reason. If you’re posting on a Knicks message board, you’re the hardest of the hardcore. The most obsessed fans out there. And we tend to imagine that other people are more like us than they really are. We’d never become Nets fans no matter what happened, but what percent do you really think the hardcore segment of the fans represents? It’s a small portion.

    Let me posit a hypothetical. Lets say the Nets were already in Brooklyn this year and instead of the Knicks Lin had ended up with them, and they’re the Linsanity Nets. Whose tickets would have been more expensive? Who would have been on the backpage of the Post or the Daily News more in the last few months? Who’s getting the airtime on WFAN? Things can change really fast is all I’m saying.

  131. thenamestsam

    2FOR18: Are the prices reasonable at the new place?I’ve been pretty much priced out of MSG.

    That was the one nice thing about the pre-Linsanity Knicks this year: those ticket prices were amazing. I went to multiple games where I paid less than $20 in the weeks before Linsanity. Now I’m back to watching at home.

  132. jon abbey

    thenamestsam: Exactly, the Hipster thing is an incredibly reductive view of Brooklyn. It’s a hugely diverse borough.

    Brooklyn on its own would be the 4th biggest US city, behind Chicago, LA and the remainder of NYC.

    I don’t think the Nets could ever compete with the Knicks, though. maybe if they had Howard and Williams and the Knicks sucked, but that’s not looking very likely.

    game thread!

  133. d-mar

    thenamestsam: That was the one nice thing about the pre-Linsanity Knicks this year: those ticket prices were amazing. I went to multiple games where I paid less than $20 in the weeks before Linsanity. Now I’m back to watching at home.

    Here’s a little insight into the “philosophy” of the ownership at MSG: they recently sent season ticket holders an email regarding the playoffs, and if the Knicks somehow make it to the conference finals, regular season seats that normally go for $165 will be jacked up to a whopping $480, yes, almost a 200% increase. Now maybe all NBA teams do this, but somehow I don’t think to this extent. MSG’s attitude is obviously “hey they’ll pay anything, they’re not gonna pass on a playoff game” and they will sell them to someone out there, but I just find it sickening after all the crap years Knick fans went through.

  134. er

    Duck Folan

    d-mar: Here’s a little insight into the “philosophy” of the ownership at MSG: they recently sent season ticket holders an email regarding the playoffs, and if the Knicks somehow make it to the conference finals, regular season seats that normally go for $165 will be jacked up to a whopping $480, yes, almost a 200% increase. Now maybe all NBA teams do this, but somehow I don’t think to this extent. MSG’sattitude is obviously “hey they’ll pay anything, they’re not gonna pass on a playoff game” and they will sell them to someone out there, but I just find it sickening after all the crap years Knick fans went through.

  135. 2FOR18

    d-mar: Here’s a little insight into the “philosophy” of the ownership at MSG: they recently sent season ticket holders an email regarding the playoffs, and if the Knicks somehow make it to the conference finals, regular season seats that normally go for $165 will be jacked up to a whopping $480, yes, almost a 200% increase. Now maybe all NBA teams do this, but somehow I don’t think to this extent. MSG’sattitude is obviously “hey they’ll pay anything, they’re not gonna pass on a playoff game” and they will sell them to someone out there, but I just find it sickening after all the crap years Knick fans went through.

    Holy shit. You can get a new flat screen and an escort to blow you on your couch while you watch the game for that price.

  136. jon abbey

    d-mar: Here’s a little insight into the “philosophy” of the ownership at MSG: they recently sent season ticket holders an email regarding the playoffs, and if the Knicks somehow make it to the conference finals, regular season seats that normally go for $165 will be jacked up to a whopping $480, yes, almost a 200% increase. Now maybe all NBA teams do this, but somehow I don’t think to this extent. MSG’sattitude is obviously “hey they’ll pay anything, they’re not gonna pass on a playoff game” and they will sell them to someone out there, but I just find it sickening after all the crap years Knick fans went through.

    no one hates Dolan and company as much as me, but with the secondary market the way it’s been since Lin, I don’t really have a problem with this. I do question who the hell can afford to go to games night after night, but I questioned that before Lin also.

  137. max fisher-cohen

    I have no doubt that the Nets could quickly gain a big following. As hyped as people have been about the Knicks lately, they occupy nowhere near the same place in NYC’s consciousness as they did in the 90s.

    That said, NJ management is a joke. Their decision-making process reeks of the very desperation that led the Knicks to a decade of mediocrity.

    Still, I would welcome some competition for the Knicks. If anything, it would put $ pressure on NY to make smart decisions.

  138. er

    I think if the Kidd nets played in Newark they wudda had a bigger following considering that the Knicks sucked…but they were in that dump izod…. So if they have a good team in a few years they will have a good following

    max fisher-cohen:
    I have no doubt that the Nets could quickly gain a big following. As hyped as people have been about the Knicks lately, they occupy nowhere near the same place in NYC’s consciousness as they did in the 90s.

    That said, NJ management is a joke. Their decision-making process reeks of the very desperation that led the Knicks to a decade of mediocrity.

    Still, I would welcome some competition for the Knicks. If anything, it would put $ pressure on NY to make smart decisions.

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