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Wednesday, November 26, 2014

NYT: Knicks’ Problem in a Word – Offense

Me + NY Times =

The New York Knicks lost in the first round to the Miami Heat because their offense faltered. During the regular season New York averaged 104.4 points per 100 possessions, also called offensive rating, which was 17th best in the N.B.A. In the games 1, 3, and 4 of the playoffs, New York managed deplorable ratings of 81.4, 82.8, and 94.1 respectively on offense.

Tyson Chandler’s drop in production was noticeable, going from a 70.8 to 49.1 true shooting percentage. Shooting guard J.R. Smith’s rate plummeted to an abysmal 38.4 percent, despite having the team’s second highest usage rate (24.5 percent). Although Steve Novak shot well, he rarely shot at all, only managing nine field goal attempts the whole series. While Chandler and Novak’s scoring is dependent on their teammates, Smith’s ghastly marks were largely self-inflicted. The Knick guard frequently settled for long two-point jumpers, the least profitable area on the court to shot from.

And more …

83 comments on “NYT: Knicks’ Problem in a Word – Offense

  1. Spree8

    Shaquille O’Neal, Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith all made that point emphatically on TNT’s postgame show Thursday.

    “Carmelo and Amar’e have to learn how to do other things,” Barkley said. “They only know how to help their team scoring-wise.”

    Smith added, “They can become better passers and make better decisions.”

    Anthony shrugged off the criticism.

    “I don’t really care about what them guys say,” he said. “I know what I have to do.”

    ……………
    MElo still doesn’t get it….get ready for another first round exit guys..if luck is on our side that is..

  2. er

    Ok …I think people overanalyze words. He said I don’t care what they say, who the he’ll cares. It’s not about words it’s about actions if he plays bad then you can bitch and moan but I don’t put stock in anything any athlete says.

    He said he has to do what I have to do….who knows what that even means

    Spree8:
    Shaquille O’Neal, Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith all made that point emphatically on TNT’s postgame show Thursday.

    “Carmelo and Amar’e have to learn how to do other things,” Barkley said. “They only know how to help their team scoring-wise.”

    Smith added, “They can become better passers and make better decisions.”

    Anthony shrugged off the criticism.

    “I don’t really care about what them guys say,” he said. “I know what I have to do.”

    ……………
    MElo still doesn’t get it….get ready for another first round exit guys..if luck is on our side that is..

  3. Nick C.

    Nice article. I didn’t realize Tyson was that awful. Theoretically his drop and Novak’s disappearance are an indictment of the PG play, or lack thereof.

  4. twincitiesknick

    Might have missed this, but what was the average offensive efficiency for teams that played the Heat this year, and how did the Knicks compare to that?

  5. hoolahoop

    er:
    Ok …I think people overanalyze words. He said I don’t care what they say, who the he’ll cares. It’s not about words it’s about actions if he plays bad then you can bitch and moan but I don’t put stock in anything any athlete says.

    He said he has to do what I have to do….who knows what that even means

    I don’t mean to single you out, but why do you guys always have to defend Melo? He could spit all over you and you’d say it’s raining.
    Most analysts have all come around to seeing Melo’s limitation in his selfish style of play, and you guys have excuse after excuse for him. Why????????????????
    I’ve heard it said that some fans will forgive players for anything they do, no matter how insulting or disrespectful.

  6. jon abbey

    hoolahoop: I don’t mean to single you out, but why do you guys always have to defend Melo? He could spit all over you and you’d say it’s raining.
    Most analysts have all come around to seeing Melo’s limitation in his selfish style of play, and you guys have excuse after excuse for him. Why????????????????
    I’ve heard it said that some fans will forgive players for anything they do, no matter how insulting or disrespectful.

    did you actually read the exchange? I’d be upset if Melo was actually listening to those bozos. he didn’t say he didn’t need to make improvements, he said “I know what I have to do.”

  7. cgreene

    It’s so funny how this blog is divided into the optimists and pessimists. Probably says a lot about people’s personalities.

    The funny thing is that the pessimists keep pointing out how the maximum potential of this team is a 2nd round exit without discussing the competition. Why is everyone convinced Chicago is such a juggernaut? Maybe Rose isn’t the same guy. Even though he and Noah were hurt I thought they got exposed. I for one am not at all convinced that the Bulls are a perennial ECF team if they cant significantly improve their offense.

  8. StatsTeacher

    I also wonder about Melo, but he did some great things during the season, including one game with a triple double. His performance in the playoffs was black-hole like for the simple reason that he had no one else to pass to given the Heat’s defense and the fact that we had to go the morgue to get a PG. It appears we have no real changes coming in the roster, so it’s time to see if these guys can get healthy and do it. I think the 60 win goal seems high, but low 50’s should be possible.

  9. Z-man

    Bottom line is, Melo ain’t going anywhere. Let’s move on.

    The most compelling question now is: Lin vs. someone else.

    I know lots of people here are sold on Lin, but I have serious concerns about him, and would not hesitate to go for Nash if he is available, even if it means losing Lin. Here’s why:
    1. Durability: his game and his body don’t seem to be a good match. He drives and draws fouls at a nice clip, but gets absolutely hammered to the hardwood several times a game. This knee thing is a concern, but I worry about the rest of him as well
    2. Perimeter game: I don’t believe in Lin’s shot from 3 yet. He shot .324 for the year, and while he shot in the .340’s as a starter, in many of the early Lin-sanity games, he was being dared to shoot. In March, when he started all 13 games he played and Linsanity was not a secret any more, he reverted to .324, and shot .406 overall.
    3. Defense: he is an average to below average defender, and probably always will be.
    4. Leadership: while Lin definitely has leadership ability, I doubt that he will ever be respected by Melo and STAT to the point that he can get them to subjugate their games for the betterment of the team.
    5. Trend towards the Landry Syndrome: Landry Fields had us fooled into thinking that he was the next John Havlicek until the reality set in that he was a marginal NBA rotation player (really, there are several teams for whom he would never get off the bench.) So, Lin played out of his mind for a dozen games, but his WS 48 and PER went downhill as the league took more notice. Deron Williams, Lin’s first victim, crucified him in their next game. The Heat made him look more like a D-leaguer than an NBA starting PG.

    On the other hand, Nash brings 2 things that the team needs desperately right now: unquestionably great shooting and the gravitas to order STAT and Melo around. He appears to have at least 2 very good years left, and we have 3 years left with this core. The future is now with…

  10. Z-man

    …this group.

    Look at the Lin vs. Nash stats for last year:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=linje01&y1=2012&p2=nashst01&y2=2012

    PER and WS 48 were similar, but 1) Lin was at all-world levels for his first 10 games as a starter and then dropped off, big time. Nash has been as consistent as ever, leading the league in asst% and among the leaders in TS%.

    Bottom line: we are DEFINITELY not beating the Heat in a playoff series with Lin as our starting PG, and PROBABLY not beating them with Nash. But our chances are very significantly better with Nash than with Lin.

    I fully realize that Nash will likely be unavailable for what we can offer, but if he is, for me, it’s a no-brainer. Go with the 2-time MVP over the 2-week wonder.

  11. cgreene

    kinda agree with a lot of this… pinning the future hopes of maximizing the potential of this team on a guy who played 30 games is a huge risk. pinning that on steve nash for 2 years. not so much a risk.

    Z-man:
    Bottom line is, Melo ain’t going anywhere. Let’s move on.

    The most compelling question now is: Lin vs. someone else.

    I know lots of people here are sold on Lin, but I have serious concerns about him, and would not hesitate to go for Nash if he is available, even if it means losing Lin. Here’s why:

    On the other hand, Nash brings 2 things that the team needs desperately right now: unquestionably great shooting and the gravitas to order STAT and Melo around.He appears to have at least 2 very good year

  12. StatsTeacher

    Z-man, I see your concern(s) but have a slightly different view:

    1) Durability: we’ll see.

    2) Perimeter Game: seems like you could tell on Lin’s 1st shot in a game if he was going 6 for 10 or 4 for 15, very streaky, likely to improve though.

    3) His defense is very good, he gets tons of steals, and is a far better defender than Nash (or a Steph Curry) there are better defending PG’s but not many IMHO.

    4) Leadership: STAT will love him, Melo, probably not.

    5) Disagree here, his PER ended right at 20, when he was trying to get everyone going. I could tell when he was coming off the bench for Curry in GS that he was better than Curry, and that was way before Linsanity. He is about the 10th best PG in the league right now, the PER list is fairly accurate, though a few above him are worse to me (Curry) and at least a few below him are more effective (e.g. Rondo). Yes, Paul, Dwill and a few others are much better, but those guys are very hard to come by.

  13. StatsTeacher

    and yes, Nash is above Lin on the PER list, if we trust the PER list (not sure, though I mostly like it).

  14. formido

    It is truly bizarre to be belaboring the Knick’s points per game woes in the playoffs when Lin wasn’t playing.

    “With Jeremy Lin on the court in fourth quarters, they scored 115.6 points per 100, but without him they’ve scored just 99.6.”

    http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012/04/23/how-eastern-conference-playoff-teams-perform-across-quarters/

    That’s just a taste of the overwhelming logical and statistical evidence in favor of optimism. Imagine a playoffs where Miami has a stated goal of holding Lin to < 10 points. Can they do that and stop Melo? For a whole series? Doubtful. Multiple offensive weapons puts enormous pressure on defenses.

    Pessimism always sounds like reason, even when it's irrational.

  15. Spree8

    cgreene:
    kinda agree with a lot of this…pinning the future hopes of maximizing the potential of this team on a guy who played 30 games is a huge risk.pinning that on steve nash for 2 years.not so much a risk.

    The 39 years old Nash is “a huge risk”. Here we have someone who’s career could practically end with “one” serious injury. No thanks, not with our luck and medical staff. And I’d thought people learn something from our last “savior” BD..

  16. StatsTeacher

    Formido–great stuff, the reason Lin was so good was he gets to the line — a LOT. Causes huge issues for defenses. This discussion about Nash misses this key point, I think. Nash gets to the line once every 13.8 minutes of playing time, Lin, once every 5.1 minutes. They are totally different players. And I love Nash, watched him a ton.

  17. Z-man

    @12, His PER ended at 20 but didn’t start there, he was up around 30 and then dropped off. I don’t understand how you can conclude that he’s a top-10 PG based on his first 25 games, especially after they trended downward after the novelty wore off. Re: his “streaky” 3-pt game, that scares me, people said this about Felton, who I think is a more likely comparison for what Lin will become next year than the next Nash(maybe he gets better than that, maybe he doesn’t, like you said, we’ll see.) Re: his D, steals are not a good indicator of overall D, most people here would concur.

    Look, I don’t think we have a realistic chance to get Nash anyway, and would be fine with Lin over any PG available other than Nash. I don’t think that Lin will be a bust to the degree that Landry has, and I agree that Lin has huge upside, IF he improves from the perimeter, IF he can take the pounding for 82 games, IF he can win over Melo, IF he can keep Rose, Williams, Rondo, Holiday, even Calderon from torching him (remember how we had to put Shump on Calderon aftet he had his way with Lin?). It’s just that with a 2-3 year commitment to Melo and Amare (and Chandler) already a given, I’d go with the surer thing in Nash. Not gonna jump off a bridge about it, though!

  18. StatsTeacher

    Z-man:
    @12, His PER ended at 20 but didn’t start there, he was up around 30 and then dropped off.I don’t understand how you can conclude that he’s a top-10 PG based on his first 25 games, especially after they trended downward after the novelty wore off. Re: his “streaky” 3-pt game, that scares me, people said this about Felton, who I think is a more likely comparison for what Lin will become next year than the next Nash(maybe he gets better than that, maybe he doesn’t, like you said, we’ll see.) Re: his D, steals are not a good indicator of overall D, most people here would concur.

    Look, I don’t think we have a realistic chance to get Nash anyway, and would be fine with Lin over any PG available other than Nash.I don’t think that Lin will be a bust to the degree that Landry has, and I agree that Lin has huge upside, IF he improves from the perimeter, IF he can take the pounding for 82 games, IF he can win over Melo, IF he can keep Rose, Williams, Rondo, Holiday, even Calderon from torching him (remember how we had to put Shump on Calderon aftet he had his way with Lin?).It’s just that with a 2-3 year commitment to Melo and Amare (and Chandler) already a given, I’d go with the surer thing in Nash. Not gonna jump off a bridge about it, though!

    All good points. I probably am overly optimistic about a 26 or 27 game sample. . . . . . .the only thing I can say about Lin’s PER is there was NO WAY his high 20’s PER from after the Laker/Mavs/Toronto games was sustainable. More like whatever his PER was when he had a line of 19/7/6 vs Indy to end the home and home. BTW I thought that was Lin’s best game. . . . .

  19. Z-man

    Who cares how many times Lin gets to the line? His TS was 55%, Nash was 62%, and that’s with Nash’s game on every NBA scouting report and Lin coming out of the woodwork. That’s also with Lin missing the last month of the season and the playoffs because of the pounding he took drawing those fouls. You don’t think that Nash could get to the line as much as Lin if he wanted to? Please. You stay healthy for 16 years by getting OTHER guys to the line off of good feeds.

    There really is no comparison between Lin and Nash on offense. Nash has shoot over 50% from the field 5 of the last 6 years (tied a career high last year) and over 40% from 3 pt range 14 times. He also led the league once again in asst%, beating Lin by a large margin (again, Lin talied off in this category big time after his first few starts.) Take away Lin’s first 10 games as a starter when nobody knew who he was and break down the next 15 games and what do you have? Raymond Felton, basically.

  20. Ben R

    You cannot compare Nash vs Lin in a vacuum. Was Nash better than Lin last year, yes. Will Lin ever be as good as Nash in his prime, probably not. But Nash is 38 while Lin is 23. I would say that next year Lin has a solid chance to be better than Nash and the year after that will most likely be better than after that Nash is probably retired.

    Nash is a two year rental and at 38 who knows if he will take a step back or fall badly once and be done. Lin is the 2nd most promising young PG in the NBA. Lin right now is top 15 maybe top 10 with no improvement. Even after his initial Linsanity he still put up over 17 pts, 8 asts, 4 rebs and 2 stls per 36.

    Lin has holes in his game, he just completed what for all intents and purposes was his rookie season but his potential is off the charts. Why do so many people assume he is either a finished product or a player who will get worse?

  21. Doug

    After what we went through with Isiah, I can’t believe people are dead set on trading away the young, promising player for the the aging, established one.

  22. er

    Thank you Jon, this guy is so hell bent on tearing the guy down he didnt even understand what i was saying. All i said is talk is cheap, who cares what they say or what melo says, it all comes down to production on the court

    hoolahoop: I don’t mean to single you out, but why do you guys always have to defend Melo? He could spit all over you and you’d say it’s raining.
    Most analysts have all come around to seeing Melo’s limitation in his selfish style of play, and you guys have excuse after excuse for him. Why????????????????
    I’ve heard it said that some fans will forgive players for anything they do, no matter how insulting or disrespectful.

    jon abbey: did you actually read the exchange? I’d be upset if Melo was actually listening to those bozos. he didn’t say he didn’t need to make improvements, he said “I know what I have to do.”

  23. er

    I feel you man, but i think the reason some are leaning towards nash is the age and experience factor. Lin has barely played in the nba and 2 of our 3 guys on the front line are 30 and one is 28. I guess some dont think his learning curve will ultimately mesh with the older players as well as the 2 time mvp

    Im not sure what the right decision, but which ever decision they make will be a turning point in knick history

    Doug:
    After what we went through with Isiah, I can’t believe people are dead set on trading away the young, promising player for the the aging, established one.

  24. JK47

    Every hoolahoop post is exactly the same: Melo heroball selfish Melo heroball selfish blah blah blah.

    It’s the same post every single time.

  25. Hudson River

    For the first time in more than a decade, I love the way this team plays ball and while they may not win a championship any time soon, I believe the basis of our team has to be defense, rebounding and young player development even if it comes at the cost of missing out on guys like Steve Nash.

    I think we’re overlooking the value of team and team defense with regard to this conversation and the conversation around Coach Mike. Steve Nash is one of the best point guards of all time, but he can’t be our point guard while Jeremy Lin can be a piece on the team that ultimately wins a championship. He’s young, quick, smart, very good at moving the ball, a good locker room presence that the rest of the team believes in and he’s a pretty good defender. How could we not roll the dice on this 23 year old?

  26. Z-man

    @21, because we are not a team in transition right now. We have most of our cap invested in 3 players for the next 3 years. That means that we are in “win now” mode, whether we like it or not. The trades have already been made and can’t be reversed. So, the question is, who gives us the best chance to win in the next 2-3 years, after which the team will prpbably need to be dismantled?

    @20, Ben, I hear you re the age issue, and to me, that’s the ONLY issue. I will beg to differ with your opinion that Lin “might” be better than Nash next year:

    Ben R: I would say that next year Lin has a solid chance to be better than Nash and the year after that will most likely be better than after that Nash is probably retired.

    Nothing in this past year’s stats backs this up. Nash just enjoyed a great and relatively healthy season, while Lin faded and succumbed to a serious knee issue.

    Coupla other things: after Linsanity, the Knicks went 9-10, including the winning streak where Melo carried the team. During those 20 games:

    Lin went 1-11 with 3 assists and 8 turnovers vs. Miami
    Lin went 6-16 with 5 assists and 6 turnovers vs. Boston; Rondo went for 18-15-20
    Lin went 4-13 with 7 assists vs. Dallas; Jason Kidd had 15-6
    He was destroyed by Deron Williams
    He was murdered by Tony Parker
    He was outplayed by Brandon Jennings
    He shot 40% from the field and 33% from 3.
    He had 6 assist or less in half of those games.
    He made 1 or 0 3ptrs in 13 of those 19 games.

    Why are you so convinced that he’s likely to be a top-10 PG next year? Weren’t many on this site calling Raymond Felton a top-10 PG during the first 30 games or so with us? (He was playing like one for sure, but that didn’t make him one.)

  27. er

    good points i think im 51% in the camp of nash due to your points on best chance to win in next 2-3 years

    Z-man:
    @21, because we are not a team in transition right now.We have most of our cap invested in 3 players for the next 3 years.That means that we are in “win now” mode, whether we like it or not. The trades have already been made and can’t be reversed. So, the question is, who gives us the best chance to win in the next 2-3 years, after which the team will prpbably need to be dismantled?

    @20, Ben, I hear you re the age issue, and to me, that’s the ONLY issue.I will beg to differ with your opinion that Lin “might” be better than Nash next year:

    Nothing in this past year’s stats backs this up. Nash just enjoyed a great and relatively healthy season, while Lin faded and succumbed to a serious knee issue.

    Coupla other things: after Linsanity, the Knicks went 9-10, including the winning streak where Melo carried the team. During those 20 games:

    Lin went 1-11 with 3 assists and 8 turnovers vs. Miami
    Lin went 6-16 with 5 assists and 6 turnovers vs. Boston; Rondo went for 18-15-20
    Lin went 4-13 with 7 assists vs. Dallas; Jason Kidd had 15-6
    He was destroyed by Deron Williams
    He was murdered by Tony Parker
    He was outplayed by Brandon Jennings
    He shot 40% from the field and 33% from 3.
    He had 6 assist or less in half of those games.
    He made 1 or 0 3ptrs in 13 of those 19 games.

    Why are you so convinced that he’s likely to be a top-10 PG next year? Weren’t many on this site calling Raymond Felton a top-10 PG during the first 30 games or so with us? (He was playing like one for sure, but that didn’t make him one.)

  28. Spree8

    er:
    I feel you man, but i think the reason some are leaning towards nash is the age and experience factor. Lin has barely played in the nba and 2 of our 3 guys on the front line are 30 and one is 28. I guess some dont think his learning curve will ultimately mesh with the older players as well as the 2 time mvp

    your kidding right? if anyone has to do the “meshing” it is Melo. name one player who’s game did not suffer or regress playing with Melo. it’s the exact opposite with Lin. Now..don’t be surprise if Nash’s game becomes “average” when/if he comes.

  29. er

    yes chauncey billups game became so average in denver they went to the conference finals

    Spree8: your kidding right? if anyone has to do the “meshing” it is Melo. name one player who’s game did not suffer or regress playing with Melo. it’s the exact opposite with Lin. Now..don’t be surprise if Nash’s game becomes “average” when/if he comes.

  30. JK47

    This Steve Nash argument seems kind of moot since the team is going to re-sign Jeremy Lin. I think there is about a 0% chance Jeremy Lin is not a Knick next season.

  31. er

    most likely true

    JK47:
    This Steve Nash argument seems kind of moot since the team is going to re-sign Jeremy Lin.I think there is about a 0% chance Jeremy Lin is not a Knick next season.

  32. Z-man

    JK47: This Steve Nash argument seems kind of moot since the team is going to re-sign Jeremy Lin. I think there is about a 0% chance Jeremy Lin is not a Knick next season.

    Agreed, but for different reasons, I don’t think Nash comes here for a discount. If he IS available, I think it’s a big mistake not to make that deal.

    Ironically, it would probably be best for Lin’s career if he signs a 1-yr deal with the knicks for 2.5 million and Nash signs for the full MLE. Lin probably never goes for it, but if he has any faith in his game and body, he would probably make way more $ in the long run by doing that.

  33. Ben R

    Z-man:
    Ironically, it would probably be best for Lin’s career if he signs a 1-yr deal with the knicks for 2.5 million and Nash signs for the full MLE. Lin probably never goes for it, but if he has any faith in his game and body, he would probably make way more $ in the long run by doing that.

    That would be a terrible move by the Knicks. If Lin signed a one year deal the Knicks would lose the Arenas rule and he would sign somewhere else after next season, because the Knicks would be limited by the MLE while other teams could offer him more.

    er: @20, Ben, I hear you re the age issue, and to me, that’s the ONLY issue.I will beg to differ with your opinion that Lin “might” be better than Nash next year:

    Nothing in this past year’s stats backs this up. Nash just enjoyed a great and relatively healthy season, while Lin faded and succumbed to a serious knee issue.

    Nash was a good step better than Lin this year but at age 38 he is definitely on the decline. Lin at 23 is young and should improve. If Lin takes a step forward, likely, and Nash takes a step back, also likely, then the chasm in talent is a lot smaller, but Nash would still be better, if either one of those steps are big then all of a sudden Lin is a better player. I would say most likely Nash is better than Lin next year and then Lin passes Nash after that.

    As for Lin’s stats to close the season they were quite good.
    Last 14 games (post ASB per 36):
    17.3 pts 7.9 asts 4.0 rebs 1.9 stls 4.1 tos
    53.5% TS%

    This was with a knee that was bothering him for at least a couple weeks prior to shutting it down.

  34. JK47

    Seems like the best strategy is to sign Lin for the MLE, bring in a backup PG for the vet minimum and try to fill another hole with the bi-annual exception– preferably a good shooter like Marco Belinelli or someone along those lines. The frontcourt seems pretty well set with Chandler/Jordan/Jorts at the 5, Stat/Jorts/Jeffries at the 4 and Melo/Fields at the 3.

    If a miracle happens and JR Smith comes back then perhaps NYK could afford to spend the BAE on a backup point.

  35. Spree8

    Z-man:
    @21, because we are not a team in transition right now.We have most of our cap invested in 3 players for the next 3 years.That means that we are in “win now” mode, whether we like it or not. The trades have already been made and can’t be reversed. So, the question is, who gives us the best chance to win in the next 2-3 years, after which the team will prpbably need to be dismantled?

    @20, Ben, I hear you re the age issue, and to me, that’s the ONLY issue.I will beg to differ with your opinion that Lin “might” be better than Nash next year:

    Nothing in this past year’s stats backs this up. Nash just enjoyed a great and relatively healthy season, while Lin faded and succumbed to a serious knee issue.

    Coupla other things: after Linsanity, the Knicks went 9-10, including the winning streak where Melo carried the team. During those 20 games:

    Lin went 1-11 with 3 assists and 8 turnovers vs. Miami
    Lin went 6-16 with 5 assists and 6 turnovers vs. Boston; Rondo went for 18-15-20
    Lin went 4-13 with 7 assists vs. Dallas; Jason Kidd had 15-6
    He was destroyed by Deron Williams
    He was murdered by Tony Parker
    He was outplayed by Brandon Jennings
    He shot 40% from the field and 33% from 3.
    He had 6 assist or less in half of those games.
    He made 1 or 0 3ptrs in 13 of those 19 games.

    Why are you so convinced that he’s likely to be a top-10 PG next year? Weren’t many on this site calling Raymond Felton a top-10 PG during the first 30 games or so with us? (He was playing like one for sure, but that didn’t make him one.)

    come on now.. so players aren’t allow to have bad games? let’s ignore the fact that Lin is practically a rookie. Name any player now and I’ll list their “bad” games.. who will it be? Melo, Nash, Jordan? just one question, during the winning streak, did Lin also “destroyed, murdered, outplayed” his opponents?…

  36. ess-dog

    I agree with Z man. If Nash will come for the mid level, you have to offer. He’s our only chance of leapfrogging the Heat.

    But…

    I really think Nash can/will get more than the midlevel. Also, according to Berman (not much of a source, I know) we’re looking to keep Lin and add a cheap vet pg like Fisher.

    I don’t think you can fault either direction, but I don’t think Lin/Shump/Melo/Amare/Tyson is enough to get us over the top in the east. We’ll see I guess…. but also, Lin on a 2 year deal could open up a sign and trade later on.

    And on a side note, I would LOVE it if we could just bring Jeff van Gundy back. I know it won’t happen b/c of Dolan, but I think he could make our current players work.

  37. Ben R

    The quote I quoted up above is not er but Z-Man I mistakenly quoted z-man off of er’s post.

  38. Z-man

    Ben R: That would be a terrible move by the Knicks. If Lin signed a one year deal the Knicks would lose the Arenas rule and he would sign somewhere else after next season, because the Knicks would be limited by the MLE while other teams could offer him more

    Thanks, Ben, I didn’t know that, I thought that once you sign a player, you re-establish the right to go over the cap to sign them as a FA.

    Spree8: come on now.. so players aren’t allow to have bad games? let’s ignore the fact that Lin is practically a rookie. Name any player now and I’ll list their “bad” games.. who will it be? Melo, Nash, Jordan? just one question, during the winning streak, did Lin also “destroyed, murdered, outplayed” his opponents?…

    The issue for me is that 1. the bad games started to come after the linsanity cat was out of the bag, 2. teams seem to play much better against him the second time they saw him, 3. as he got wore down from taking a pounding game after game. That said, I hear you, and like Lin a lot, just not enough to prefer him to Nash at this point in time with this team.

  39. Z-man

    Would the Nets consider trading Williams for Amare and Shump? I love Shump, but that would be hard to pass up. We can’t trade Lin because he’s a FA, right?

  40. iserp

    Z-man: We can’t trade Lin because he’s a FA, right?

    We can’t … but we could have an under the table agreement over Lin. If Lin signs an offer sheet from NJ, they could agree to do a S&T with us, as long as we don’t match Lin’s offer. However, that is tied to Lin agreeing to an offer sheet from NJ, which would only happen if NJ is the highest bidder.

  41. hoolahoop

    JK47:
    Every hoolahoop post is exactly the same: Melo heroball selfish Melo heroball selfish blah blah blah.

    It’s the same post every single time.

    Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement.
    DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE!

  42. Doug

    hoolahoop: Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement. Ball movement.
    DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE!

    This is actually an improvement.

  43. JC Knickfan

    To Z-Man post about Nash,

    You know based on history Nash is playing borrow time. There not been player in league at 40yr to maintain his level a play. He already in uncharted terrority. There high probability because history say so that within one year he could lose half a step. He playing PG not Center. We probably get one good year of Nash at this level play before regression in year 2 and 3.

    This 2nd problem New York training staff. Are know as elite injury prevention staff? I’ve not read anywhere that we are. Is Nash even going survive injury free a year for us. You know he was spondylolisthesis, which mean chronic back problems.

    Several people keep thinking Nash will maintain his play. If he was 35 I would say please get Nash. At 39 I don’t think so. This could turn out similar Randy Johnson for the Yankees.

  44. Z-man

    No doubt it is a risk. If it wasn’t we wouldn’t even be having the discussion, would we?

    I just think that last year shows that he’s an exception to the rule. He knows how to deal with the grind and maximize what he has left. He would have a rim protector in Chandler and an iso guy in Melo to lessen his PG load. Most importantly, he is one of the best shooters of all time, that part of one’s game never gets old.

    On the other hand, Lin is still very much unproven as a potential full-time 82 game, deep into the trenches of the playoffs starter. I’m surprised that more people here aren’t deeply concerned with the possibility of him becoming an injury-prone, mediocre shooting and defending fringe starter who is way overpaid at the MLE.

  45. Spree8

    Z-man: Thanks, Ben, I didn’t know that, I thought that once you sign a player, you re-establish the right to go over the cap to sign them as a FA.

    The issue for me is that 1. the bad games started to come after the linsanity cat was out of the bag, 2. teams seem to play much better against him the second time they saw him, 3. as he got wore down from taking a pounding game after game. That said, I hear you, and like Lin a lot, just not enough to prefer him to Nash at this point in time with this team.

    Again.. I won’t name names.. but the losing streak started when “that someone” came back. It’s no secret our “stars” didn’t play the way they did under Woodson during that losing streak. If you really want to judge Lin’s game you should look at the winning streak we had under Woodson when there was balanced scoring between Melo, Stat, and Lin. Then again I guess we’ll never know how good Lin can be if he still have the freedom to run the team like he did during Linsanity….now with Melo & Stat back and Woody as the coach. That’s fine with me as long as they play team basketball because neither Linsanity or Melo can make a title run on their own. But there’s no doubt this team “can” be special when used properly.

  46. ephus

    If we are going to have the debate about the 6 game losing streak after the ASB again, the Knicks were playing a much tougher stretch of games than they did during the Linsanity (alone) phase.

    @Boston (could have won if not for Pierce heroics),
    @ Dallas (season split with Dallas is to be expected),
    @ SA (chalk it up as a loss),
    @Milwaukee (bad loss caused by 3rd quarter collapse),
    Philadelphia (another really bad loss caused by another 3rd quarter collapse)
    @Chicago (chalk it up even though the Knicks played well).

    Even if the Knicks played well throughout the entire stretch, I would not have expected them to come through better than 2-4. In addition, Chandler was trying to play with a bulky brace on his wrist, and literally could not catch the ball on the PnR or rebounds.

    It was a small sample, but really important because the tensions between ‘Melo and MDA totally boiled over.

    This Knicks roster can be special (particularly if JR Smith agrees to come back), but it is going to require every rotation player to play hard at both ends of the court for 82 games. The Knicks do not have enough talent to play in spurts, or at just one end of the court.

  47. JC Knickfan

    @46

    Geez another making assumption what people, it’s reasonable guess most blogger here are concern about Lin getting injured again.

    Again we should have history help us again.
    1) Does have history being injured? I definitely cannot found anything. I found out he play every game from freshman-senior in college. So that’s green light.
    2) What injury did he have and is it career threatening. Menicus Tear repair – there a study that this injury had no affect player future performance. So that another green light.
    3) Lin os 23 and has 5 years to his prime. So that another green light.
    4) What this player work ethnic? By all account heard he work very hard. So that another green light.
    5) Does this player so he can improve? In one game D-league this year he get triple-double. In 20 games previous season D-league he average 18pt 4.3 apg. Can you really get lucky have triple-double? Signs point that he got better this off-season. I would say green light.
    6) Is he flash in the pan. Based previous history player who put linsanity#, which I read article there where about 41 players that did that. Rounding number I think it broken down to 4-tier 25% elite players, 25% consistent all-star, 25 % above average, 25% Average to below average.
    Again history say I very good chance he will be become above average player. 1/4 change he might not be. This has to be green light.

    So now $100,000,000 question, if sign Steve Nash can we win Championship and give up on this kid?

    How did Nash do again Miami this year? 1 game.
    34 Min 9pts, 0-1 FTA, 1 STL, 10 Assists (good), 7 TO (F__K).
    Interesting Nash show same weakness – alot TO vs Miami.
    Nash doesn’t make us better rebounding team or defensive. Nash still plays MDA offense which Melo hates. Will they make it work?

    Alot negative here, In my book probability that he get us over hump is too low. For future Franchise I would go with Lin.

  48. bc2k

    Some people just can’t handle the fact that, most likely the next NYK starting PG is going to be a young Asian kid, not a black/white dude. It’s been like this through-out Jeremy’s basketball life, there will always be doubters.

    I think wherever he’s ending up playing, he’ll be a big plus for the team.

  49. ephus

    I do not think that the Lin/Nash debate is about Lin, it is about Nash. If we are judging only on the next three seasons, I think that Nash is likely to provide more value than any one of Lin/Rubio/Wall/Irving/Jennings. I think Nash vs. Lowry is likely to be close over the next three years. Of course, Nash’s bad back could catch up with him one week into next season, particularly once he is away from the Suns’ medical staff. And I would expect one of the young PGs to perform better than Nash over the next three years, but it is anyone’s guess which one.

    If Nash stays healthy (which is a huge caveat), I think he is a top five PG next season, a top ten PG the following season and a top fifteen PG in the third season. Unless Nash is willing to give the Knicks a HUGE discount, he is not coming for the MLE. And unless he is literally willing to walk away from $25 million over the course of the remainder of his career, he is not going to come to the Knicks for a salary that would allow them to also hold on to Lin.

  50. JC Knickfan

    @50
    I be honest have my doubt about Lin also, but if I was GM without Dolan influence, I would going through his medical reports. When he had surgery on his knee, I would know exactly what condition is it in. How is cartilage and etc. Then I would make my decision.

    But from now to Free agency, Lin vs Nash will continue.

  51. JC Knickfan

    ephus:
    I do not think that the Lin/Nash debate is about Lin, it is about Nash.If we are judging only on the next three seasons, I think that Nash is likely to provide more value than any one of Lin/Rubio/Wall/Irving/Jennings.I think Nash vs. Lowry is likely to be close over the next three years.Of course, Nash’s bad back could catch up with him one week into next season, particularly once he is away from the Suns’ medical staff.And I would expect one of the young PGs to perform better than Nash over the next three years, but it is anyone’s guess which one.

    If Nash stays healthy (which is a huge caveat), I think he is a top five PG next season, a top ten PG the following season and a top fifteen PG in the third season.Unless Nash is willing to give the Knicks a HUGE discount, he is not coming for the MLE. And unless he is literally willing to walk away from $25 million over the course of the remainder of his career, he is not going to come to the Knicks for a salary that would allow them to also hold on to Lin.

    Technically it is because question is “who do we use MLE on”.
    Those other PG are not available.

    There is bit of chance he could sign – Nash does live NYC in the summer so that plus. NY is better the Sun and he might thing he missing piece? We would offer him 3 year deal which is long he wants to play. I heard radio Sun have offered 2 year $20 already. So we give him extra year.

  52. ephus

    JC Knickfan: I heard radio Sun have offered 2 year $20 already. So we give him extra year.

    Yes, but even with the extra year, the Knicks cannot offer more than $15.7 MM in total ($5.0/$5.23/$5.45).

  53. hoolahoop

    NOTICE: Nash is NOT coming to the knicks. There’s not a guy in the NBA who believes in ball movement more than him. Let’s face it, the knicks are stuck with the most selfish “superstar” in the league.
    George Gervin
    A. Iverson
    D. Wilkins
    V. Carter
    All very talented guys that needed to take too many shots for the team’s good.

  54. hoolahoop

    Lin has already expressed that he’s going for the most money he can get. He said he’d like to come back to the knicks, but it’s a business.

  55. hoolahoop

    Z-man:
    No doubt it is a risk. If it wasn’t we wouldn’t even be having the discussion, would we?

    I just think that last year shows that he’s an exception to the rule.He knows how to deal with the grind and maximize what he has left.He would have a rim protector in Chandler and an iso guy in Melo to lessen his PG load. Most importantly, he is one of the best shooters of all time, that part of one’s game never gets old.

    On the other hand, Lin is still very much unproven as a potential full-time 82 game, deep into the trenches of the playoffs starter. I’m surprised that more people here aren’t deeply concerned with the possibility of him becoming an injury-prone, mediocre shooting and defending fringe starter who is way overpaid at the MLE.

    Do you think that Nash completely ignores that Melo may “crowd” his game, or take shots that want to make him punch a fire extinguisher?

  56. lleepar

    hoolahoop:
    Lin has already expressed that he’s going for the most money he can get. He said he’d like to come back to the knicks, but it’s a business.

    I didn’t get any “out for the bucks” impression from his interview at all. In fact, it’s on Knicksnow if you’d like to see his full comments in context. He said:

    “Nothing is set in stone. That’s what I’ve learned,” Lin said Thursday. “We talked about (my free agency). I love the Knicks and the organization. But at the same time, it’s a business. Me, personally, I think it would be great if I come back. But crazy things happen and I don’t really know what’s going to happen.”

    It sounds to me like a comment from someone who has been cut, undrafted, and sent to the D League and has learned not to take the next contract for granted in this business. He knows he’s an RFA, so I thought his comments was an acknowledgement of whether he returns or not is in the hands of the Knicks, not in his.
    .

  57. hoolahoop

    lleepar: I love the Knicks and the organization. But at the same time, it’s a business.

    Maybe you’re right. When I heard him say it, I interpreted it to mean that he’s going to sign where he gets the most money.

  58. Brian Cronin

    I took Lin’s comments to mean that he’d understand it if the Knicks chose to sign someone else instead of him (like, say, Steve Nash).

    In any event, since the Knicks can match any offer Lin can get, him taking the most money possible is not bad for the Knicks (well, unless they hoped he’d take less money to play for them so that they could sign Nash, but that was always a bit of a far-fetched notion – players who have not yet made a fortune in the NBA are never going to delay their first real payday).

  59. lleepar

    hoolahoop: Maybe you’re right. When I heard him say it, I interpreted it to mean that he’s going to sign where he gets the most money.

    What influenced me the most was the “crazy things happen” acknowledgement in his comment. To me, that just further convinced me that he was saying he hoped to return, but he understands that there’s no guarantees in this business and the final decision is not in an RFA’s hands.
    .

  60. lleepar

    Brian Cronin:
    I took Lin’s comments to mean that he’d understand it if the Knicks chose to sign someone else instead of him (like, say, Steve Nash).

    In any event, since the Knicks can match any offer Lin can get, him taking the most money possible is not bad for the Knicks (well, unless they hoped he’d take less money to play for them so that they could sign Nash, but that was always a bit of a far-fetched notion – players who have not yet made a fortune in the NBA are never going to delay their first real payday).

    The whole Nash vs. Lin debate going on in the press would have been hard for Lin to ignore. I’m sure he understands the CBA salary restrictions the Knicks are operating under, and he knows his coach isn’t endorsing him as the Knicks starter next year. So as much as the Knicks say right now he’s a part of their plans for next year, he also knows that “crazy things could happen” if the right veteran PG will come along for the right price. I think Lin was trying to acknowledge that he knows that a business decision by the Knicks could leave him without a contract.

  61. Z-man

    bc2k: Some people just can’t handle the fact that, most likely the next NYK starting PG is going to be a young Asian kid, not a black/white dude. It’s been like this through-out Jeremy’s basketball life, there will always be doubters. I think wherever he’s ending up playing, he’ll be a big plus for the team.

    If you are including me in “some people” then let me include you in this statement: Some people are fucking asshole idiots. If not, and you are just randomly pointing out that some Knick fans are anti-Asian bigots, whatever. I’m sure there are also some Asian Knick fans who hate blacks and whites and think Lin is esentitled all-time great status after 30 games just because he’s Asian. You sound like one of those.

    The general rule here is that we back up what we say with statistical evidence. I have done so several times if you bother to read back. I welcome counter-arguments, like in @49 (touche, JC!). Your comment, however, reeks of anti-non-Asian racism.

  62. Z-man

    hoolahoop: Do you think that Nash completely ignores that Melo may “crowd” his game, or take shots that want to make him punch a fire extinguisher?

    I never got into what Nash thinks. I stated that Nash coming here is a long shot. I was merely trying to state that I would prefer Nash over Lin if Nash is available and willing.

  63. ruruland

    Spree8: your kidding right? if anyone has to do the “meshing” it is Melo. name one player who’s game did not suffer or regress playing with Melo. it’s the exact opposite with Lin. Now..don’t be surprise if Nash’s game becomes “average” when/if he comes.

    Well, the only players who have “regressed” with Melo on the Knicks have been Fields and Douglas — but there aren’t many players who’ve seen improvements in efficiency with Melo off the court….

    Douglas and Fields can’t make open jump shots. Melo’s prescence typically creates more open jump shots— so they’ve been terrible with him in and out.

    And you’re flat out wrong about Lin — no one actually improved their efficiency with him on the floor (with Melo out).The difference was that Novak started getting minutes.

    If you read this board in the past you would have come across my post showing the lack of improvement in shooting efficiency with Lin. Now, Lin is a player, like Melo, who will improve his teammates efficiency— but you can’t make open jump shots for Fields and Douglas.

  64. ruruland

    Nash played quite well Shaq.

    But this whole thing is a non-issue. Melo’s most efficienct years came with passing point guards… When 50-60 percent of his shots were assisted he had excellent fg%…..

    nash would make everyone better as he always does — the fact that he’s a low/fg guy and extreme passer would make him perfect fit…. but it’s not happening. Lin is the guy for obvious reasons and let’s hope he takes on that pass-first mindset.

    Hoolahoop is a fucking moron.

  65. TelegraphedPass

    hoolahoop: I don’t mean to single you out, but why do you guys always have to defend Melo? He could spit all over you and you’d say it’s raining.
    Most analysts have all come around to seeing Melo’s limitation in his selfish style of play, and you guys have excuse after excuse for him. Why????????????????
    I’ve heard it said that some fans will forgive players for anything they do, no matter how insulting or disrespectful.

    Eh. Despite you calling me a moron (srsly dude wtf was that about) I’ll make myself clear again.

    I’m not particularly a huge fan of Carmelo Anthony. I like the guy cuz he’s a Knick, he wants to be a Knick, and he can be incredibly fun to root for (like Nick Young or Tony Allen or Rajon Rondo). I’ve said I’m open to Carmelo Anthony trades. I said to Mike Kurylo at the last Knicks game of the playoffs that I’m down to trade Melo or STAT. I don’t particularly care who. I have concerns about both.

    My defense of Melo has less to do with him being Melo, and more to do with the fact that it is incredibly ignorant to label any player as playing for stats as opposed to wins. These guys spent their entire lives from puberty onwards training and dreaming of the day they could play basketball in the NBA. They overcame incredible trials to do so. They played in high school and college and crafted games that helped them win games and lead teams. I don’t believe there are more than maybe 5 players in the entire NBA with a serious issue with desire to win. All of those players ride benches for their respective teams. So when you tell me that a player is too selfish to win and that Magic Johnson agrees with you so it must be true, I’m gonna disagree. Calling me a moron changes nothing nor does it validate your arguments.

  66. TelegraphedPass

    Magic and JB and Barkley being players doesn’t make them significantly more likely to be right than anyone else. Why would it? You know who else has played in the NBA? Carmelo Anthony. You don’t seem to give him any credit as someone who might understand basketball, though. So why does Jon Barry of all people get that respect from you? Probably because what he says jibes with what you think.

    How many titles did all that great passing land Barkley? Just as many as our current starting small forward, yes? Titles have less to do with abstract concepts like selflessness and desire to win than having a quality team, staying healthy, and meeting good matchups in the postseason. Barkley was a greater player than Melo will ever be and that didn’t bring the O’Brian trophy down from the heavens.

    I never called LeBron a quitter. I never said he lacked the will to win a title. I never said Dirk was too soft to win. I never said Pierce was too arrogant, or KG too psychotic, or anything like that. Philosophically, I refuse to make general statements about player character and insist that flaw will preclude them from a title.

    If all that makes me a moron, then so be it.

  67. hoolahoop

    Z-man: I never got into what Nash thinks. I stated that Nash coming here is a long shot.I was merely trying to state that I would prefer Nash over Lin if Nash is available and willing.

    I agree with that.

  68. hoolahoop

    ruruland: Well, the only players who have “regressed” with Melo on the Knicks have been Fields and Douglas — but there aren’t many players who’ve seen improvements in efficiency with Melo off the court….

    Funny. Melo destroyed the entire team, starting with Amare, who was having an MVP season before Melo came. You wouldn’t know about that because you’re not a knicks fan. You’re a paid Melo that’s not man enough to be upfront about it. Since Melo arrived, the team has a lower winning percentage – and that’s without TC and with plenty of cap space. Denver is going to make a holiday celebrating the Melo’s departure.

  69. jon abbey

    Faried got destroyed by Gasol tonight, worst +/- of anyone at -17. and he was standing by for this epic 4th quarter sequence:

    7:18 75-76 Kobe Bryant misses 17-foot jumper
    7:18 75-76 Andrew Bynum misses tip shot
    7:18 75-76 Andrew Bynum offensive rebound
    7:16 75-76 Pau Gasol misses tip shot
    7:16 75-76 Pau Gasol offensive rebound
    7:13 75-76 Pau Gasol misses tip shot
    7:13 75-76 Pau Gasol offensive rebound
    7:11 75-76 Pau Gasol misses tip shot
    7:11 75-76 Pau Gasol offensive rebound
    7:09 75-78 Pau Gasol makes layup
    7:09 75-78 Pau Gasol offensive rebound

  70. hoolahoop

    TelegraphedPass: My defense of Melo has less to do with him being Melo, and more to do with the fact that it is incredibly ignorant to label any player as playing for stats as opposed to wins. These guys spent their entire lives from puberty onwards training and dreaming of the day they could play basketball in the NBA. They overcame incredible trials to do so. They played in high school and college and…..

    That’s the fallacy in your assumption that I disagree with. There’s a long history of players in every pro sport that put themselves before their team. Calling me ignorant for say that shows how naive you are and little you understand sports.

  71. TelegraphedPass

    hoolahoop: That’s the fallacy in your assumption that I disagree with. There’s a long history of players in every pro sport that put themselves before their team. Calling me ignorant for say that shows how naive you are and little you understand sports.

    I didn’t call you ignorant I’m sippin lemonade tho

  72. hoolahoop

    ruruland: Hoolahoop is a fucking moron.

    Despite you calling me a moron doesn’t make your conflicting arguments any more valid.
    I understand, it’s your job to defend Melo. That doesn’t make you right.
    Melo is so talented that he can be everything (almost) that you say he is- but he needs to change his game.
    PASS THE FUCKING BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  73. hoolahoop

    Doug:
    Hoolahoop is the Pierce Hawthorne of Knickerblogger.

    I guess I’m glad I don’t know who he is.

  74. Juany8

    jon abbey:
    Faried got destroyed by Gasol tonight, worst +/- of anyone at -17. and he was standing by for this epic 4th quarter sequence:

    7:1875-76Kobe Bryant misses 17-foot jumper
    7:1875-76Andrew Bynum misses tip shot
    7:1875-76Andrew Bynum offensive rebound
    7:1675-76Pau Gasol misses tip shot
    7:1675-76Pau Gasol offensive rebound
    7:1375-76Pau Gasol misses tip shot
    7:1375-76Pau Gasol offensive rebound
    7:1175-76Pau Gasol misses tip shot
    7:1175-76Pau Gasol offensive rebound
    7:0975-78Pau Gasol makes layup
    7:0975-78Pau Gasol offensive rebound

    Neither Gallinari or Faried played at the end of the game. Faried is a rookie so he still has room to improve, but I’m starting to have serious doubts about either Gallinari or Afflalo being worth the contracts they got just this year. Add up the fact that McGee is getting $10+ minimum, and I don’t see how the Nuggets are realistically going to be better than the Sixers for the forseeable future, which means they might get lucky and win a playoff series if the opponent has a major injury.

    As far as Nash vs. Lin, for the next season, possibly two, Nash is the no-brainer better option if he’s willing to come to New York. Lin has shown he can be an average starter so far, at best, while Nash is one of the better PG’s in the league. The only concern with Nash is his defense, but Lin’s defense is pretty suspect too so that’s not really an argument for Lin. Hell Nash is more likely to be healthy the next 2 seasons than Lin, the guy is a health freak and plays through pain like a beast.

  75. Juany8

    hoolahoop: That’s the fallacy in your assumption that I disagree with. There’s a long history of players in every pro sport that put themselves before their team. Calling me ignorant for say that shows how naive you are and little you understand sports.

    Right but where is your proof that Melo is that selfish player? I’d call him misguided if anything, I think he legitimately thinks it’s his responsibility to shoulder the scoring load despite the fact that there are often better options. I really don’t get how you watch Melo in the playoffs and come away thinking that he didn’t care about winning, he played all out every minute he was in (which was almost the entire series) and had to go one on 5 on offense while guarding Lebron freaking James more than Lebron was guarding him.

  76. sidestep

    TelegraphedPass: So when you tell me that a player is too selfish to win and that Magic Johnson agrees with you so it must be true, I’m gonna disagree.

    The oft repeated point that Melo is a ‘selfish’ player is I think bunk. Beck has re-enforced that meme too. Skillwise, Melo is a great passer, and not unwilling to do so — witness the end-of-season passing out of double teams to open teammates. His low assist numbers against in the playoffs was mostly a function of the Heat playing him straight up so there were limited passing-out-of-double-team opportunities. Besides, no one ever complains about his ‘selfishness’ when he hits those shots, and Melo simply wasn’t doing so against the Heat, or without any consistency. More of concrete criticism is his poor conditioning which became obvious when he was playing big minutes, and the limited offensive sets, but the latter point is on Woodson.

  77. jon abbey

    Juany8: Neither Gallinari or Faried played at the end of the game.

    Artest (I’m not calling him MWP after that elbow) totally shut down Gallinari, 1-9 with 4 turnovers.

  78. sidestep

    I also want to say in general that the whole idea of ‘selfish’ and ‘unselfish’ as applied to passing in basketball is really bizarre to me. Breen and Clyde are some that perpetuate this idea but what the heck do these terms even mean? A person generally cannot be faulted for being too unselfish but there certainly is such a thing as overpassing when the situation dictates one should take the shot. Eg, when Baron gives up what could be an easy layup and instead passes the ball, that’s not being ‘unselfish’ but simply poor decision making IMO, and to diminish his already minimal penetration threat. In certain fast break situations, taking the shot oneself is not being selfish but simply making the right play. The concept is also weird given that assists are counted towards individual stats — it could just as well be said that a player is being ‘selfish’ by racking up assists to get double doubles or triple doubles — it’s certainly harder to get 10 assists than it is to get 10 points.

  79. jon abbey

    sidestep:
    I also want to say in general that the whole idea of ‘selfish’ and ‘unselfish’ as applied to passing in basketball is really bizarre to me. Breen and Clyde are some that perpetuate this idea but what the heck do these terms even mean? A person generally cannot be faulted for being too unselfish but there certainly is such a thing as overpassing when the situation dictates one should take the shot. Eg, when Baron gives up what could be an easy layup and instead passes the ball, that’s not being ‘unselfish’ but simply poor decision making IMO, and to diminish his already minimal penetration threat. In certain fast break situations, taking the shot oneself is not being selfish but simply making the right play. The concept is also weird given that assists are counted towards individual stats — it could just as well be said that a player is being ‘selfish’ by racking up assists to get double doubles or triple doubles — it’s certainly harder to get 10 assists than it is to get 10 points.

    yep, and “hockey assists” (a term Mike Brown just used, the pass before the assist) are totally ignored but often the reason the play happens.

  80. TelegraphedPass

    sidestep:
    it could just as well be said that a player is being ‘selfish’ by racking up assists to get double doubles or triple doubles — it’s certainly harder to get 10 assists than it is to get 10 points.

    Wilt Chamberlain does not appreciate this statement.

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