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Tuesday, October 15, 2019

NY Post: This looks nothing like the Frank Ntilikina who has confounded Knicks

I love how there’s not even any new information about Frank to share, but Berman still managed to put out this article.

Incredibly, Frank Ntilikina, the Knicks’ 2017 lottery pick, is now the team’s longest-tenured player, along with Damyean Dotson.

Ntilikina played like he wants to stay that way when he led the French National Team to a bronze medal in the FIBA World Cup earlier this month.

As the 6-6 point guard arrives from France later this week to gear up for his third Knicks training camp, which starts Monday, scouting guru Nick Hauselman put up a six-minute Ntilikina video Wednesday on his YouTube scouting channel.

It served as a rave review of the Frenchman’s performance that included outplaying Team USA’s point guard Kemba Walker in France’s stunning quarterfinal upset.

Here’s the video…

And here’s Hauselman talking to the Post,

“The big thing was his willingness to shoot the basketball from distance, and his ability to hit floaters was 1B,” Hauselman told The Post. “That’s something he had been terrible at. Suddenly he’s nailing those. He wasn’t passing up shots. It looked like that was changing with FIBA — catching and shooting, shooting off the dribble, being much more decisive.”

and also…

“There’s so many NBA players out there and he did well against Team USA,” Hauselman said. “I don’t want to temper it too much. They’re all good players. If he can do that skill against those guys, he should be able to do it in the NBA. Finishing with those floaters is the only question. NBA big men are bigger, faster, stronger. But shooting should be the same.”

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210 comments on “NY Post: This looks nothing like the Frank Ntilikina who has confounded Knicks

  1. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    Berman is the hack of all hacks. Maybe Manish tops him but that’s a Jets beef with me.

    @JK47 – I’m pretty angry at the NY Times for what they did in publishing the info on the whistle blower. They put his life in danger. There’s no reason to do that. But from a reader’s perspective, the fact that this is a CIA analyst does lend a lot of credibility to the complaint. I wish that we didn’t need to have a complaint.

  2. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I really like Coach Nick (the annoying-as-fuck, repetitive-as-fuck music notwithstanding) and hope I am totally wrong about Ntilikina.

    That music makes me think of The Firm, the failed rap supergroup from the late 90s.

    But from a reader’s perspective, the fact that this is a CIA analyst does lend a lot of credibility to the complaint.

    Yes, this is exactly the case. Trump yesterday, in that rambling shitshow of a press conference, made a lot of wild claims that are seriously undermined by the fact that this is a CIA analyst who was detailed IN the damn WH. But it’s still fucked up that that analyst is now a target of DOJ abuse.

  3. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Zach Lowe had a piece once suggesting a similiar rule for the end of regulation as well. Something like once the game clock passes a certain point you turn off the clock, establish a winning score as the currently leading team’s score+10 (or whatever number, I don’t remember exactly what he said but it’s easy enough to base it on the average scoring in that period) and then play to that number. This would actually eliminate OT altogether along with the hacking nonsense. It probably has some weird kinks and edge-case strategies that I’m not thinking of now, but man would I be in favor of dramatically shaking up how the end of close NBA games shakes out. It really is a black mark on an otherwise fantastic entertainment product.

    It’s called the Elam Ending and has already created some controversy!

    https://thecomeback.com/nba/elam-ending-suffers-first-setback-as-controversial-call-ends-upset-bid-of-3-time-defending-champion.html

    I think the key to unlocking its potential lies in the win-by-two condition. You’d have the ability for “OT” games to go deeper, as long as they stay close, and of course, no one wants to see a team come from behind and win a game on foul shots.

    And regarding the comment about playing games to 120: I’m not totally in favor of the Elam ending for every game, even though it would make for more exciting possessions in blowouts, since teams can’t just run out the clock and heave at the end of the shot clock. I think implementing it in preseason games would be interesting.

  4. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Strat is gonna poop himself

    It’s practically a “hit piece” compared to my long term view. :-)

  5. Hubert

    This video seems to be saying that Frank is a new player on the basis of three floaters that he hit.

    I didn’t think the narration matched up to what I was seeing, either. Early on, for instance, he praises Frank’s tighter handle but the play we’re watching shows a pretty high dribble that he gets away with.

  6. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Making the shots certainly helps the narrative, but I think he’s talking more about the timing and form on his release when he drives, takes jump shots, floaters, jumps off the off foot etc… and also that he now has the confidence to actually shoot when open. Some of his problem over the last 2 years was basketball maturity. He was scared shitless to make a mistake or miss. If he’s over that (albeit kind of late in his development), it’s a start.

  7. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    All I need Ntilikina to do is hit 35% of his 3’s. Shit..I’ll be ecstatic if he just masters the corner 3. He’s got a nice game..he’s certainly smart and skilled. He’s not a top athlete, but Fiz will be making a huge mistake if he doesn’t give him that “Mudiay, we gon get you right” energy. We NEED him at the point of attack on defense. Besides, I really really wanna see a backcourt of DSJ & Ntilikina.

  8. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    My opinion about Frank has not been formed. I waffle back and forth between being a fringe NBA talent and someone with the potential to become an essential player on a championship team. Over the past couple of days I’m being nudged in the second direction. Marc Berman’s opinion doesn’t influence me in the slightest. However….

    Nick Hauselman’s video makes a compelling argument above showing improvement. That’s all you can ask if a kid is only 21. The arguments that he came from a place where basketball is played differently, that he had to adapt to the NBA game without college, that he had to adapt to being away from family and friends in a different culture, that he’s been hurt and has missed crucial off-seasons to get healthy are all plausible.

    Then there’s the Alan Hahn interview where he suggests that Ntilikina should start. START. I trust Hahn more than most in the media. He played the game and his analysis has been correct more than not.

    What really set me on the Frank path is the following article that any stat-head would be interested in. It’s a complicated read but it also has lots of footage and statistics to demonstrate the points being made:

    NBA Buy Low Roster Options To Defend Stacked NBA Offenses

    This makes the point that Frank is a plus defender, which we knew, but it makes the argument that he’s a great option for a championship team.

    Let’s just say that I’m very curious now to see Frank in action. I’m keeping an open mind, but maybe he’s turning a corner.

  9. Z-man

    Frank is still very young and if he works hard on his body and game he will be a viable NBA player at some point. The hard part is guessing when it will happen, It could be next week or in 5 years. I just hope that if they pick up his option, they don’t glue him to the bench. If he’s not good enough to play, then put him in the G-League and let him play 30+ mpg until he’s tearing it up down there (a week, month, whatever it takes.) Do NOT play him over vets just for developmental purposes, let him earn every minute he gets. If others falter/get injured/are traded or if the team falls out of the playoff chase, then sure, play him more.

    That doesn’t mean yank him if he makes typical mistakes; it means demote him if he continues the trend of posting sub-zero WS48 numbers. He can no longer be rewarded for being a negative contributor. Same with Knox.

  10. Z-man

    Man, I can’t wait for training camp to get into full swing. 10 days to the first preseason game seems like an eternity. I’ll be at the 10/16 game vs. the Hawks with great seats, my guess is that it will be taken pretty seriously by both coaches.

  11. Hubert

    but Fiz will be making a huge mistake if he doesn’t give him that “Mudiay, we gon get you right” energy.

    I don’t know if it would have done any good, but I was stunned he didn’t take that approach with him. That’s essentially what France did. They coddled him like the fragile 20 year old he is. Why we’ve done the opposite with him is perplexing.

  12. Hubert

    It doesn’t seem like it will happen this year, either. Smith and Payton will likely get all the Fizdale love at the 1, Barrett and trier at the 2, Knox at the forward.

  13. alsep73

    Vorkunov wrote a piece about people associated with the team who have the most to lose this season, depending on how things go, Frank among them. I found this paragraph on Mills and Perry interesting for a few reasons:

    Consider the wide variance in how this season could go for the Knicks. If the Knicks win, say, 41 games and make the playoffs, or even just miss, (let’s call this the optimal outcome), it’s a validation of the Mills/Perry rebuild. They will have managed to put together a roster that made the playoffs without a star. Theoretically, in this scenario, their young players have done well enough to help push the team toward the postseason. The Knicks are suddenly in a similar place to where the Nets were last April, but with better foundational talent. They wouldn’t get to go into an offseason with the same kind of free agents available as there were in 2019, but every star is basically a free agent nowadays if your organization is desirable enough. Heck, maybe Anthony Davis is serious about testing the market. Who knows. There’s a lot of depth to this rabbit hole. But the gist is clear: The Knicks would be feeling pretty, pretty, pretty good if the season plays out this way.

    First, what would have to happen for this team to go from 17 wins to 41? Jared Dubin has published stats on how hard it is for 17-win teams to even make the jump to 30 the next year. We’re replacing a bunch of bad players with ones who are at least competent, but it feels like we’d need DSJ’s shot to be truly fixed, Barrett to be ready right away, and Frank and/or Knox to make quantum leaps, right?

    Second, what do you think about the “better foundational talent” comparison to last year’s Nets?

  14. Hubert

    First, what would have to happen for this team to go from 17 wins to 41?

    The most reasonable path I can envision:

    Smith and Payton combine to produce somewhere between 3.0 to 4.0 VORP at the PG position.

    Randle flourishes as the primary option.

    Mitch Rob is able to consistently do what he can do for 32 mpg.

    Barrett is good.

    The vets like Morris, Ellington, Portis have good years and keep the minutes needed from Knox, Frank, Trier down.

  15. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    At this point, I’m just happy that Frank may get a better look. When you have a plus defender that can guard multiple positions and he has a secondary skill like play making, imo you have to give the kid a chance to develop more of his game, especially when you knew coming in he was very raw and would need time on offense.

    Personally, I don’t think they’ll send him down to the G league. I think he’d ask for a trade, especially coming off his role for France. If he can’t earn any minutes on this team, he should probably just be traded to a patient team that values defense and play making over scoring, creating your own shot etc… and then we can watch him lock down our scorers for the next decade while slowly improving his shot.

  16. swiftandabundant

    I’ll say this. I’m excited about this season more than any in awhile. Someone said this on posting and toasting and I agree.

    Pretty much all of our questions and problems are of the “upside” variety and not of the “downside” variety. We aren’t wondering if Amar or Rose or Noah or Bargnani or Melo can have a bounce back year so we can be good. We’re wondering if Randle, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Trier, Knox and Peyton can get Berger as young players (Portia and Dotson too). We’re wondering if Fox and the Knicks can develop these guys. That’s kind of cool I think. Our questions are largely about young players taking the next step, not old players fighting off Father Time.

  17. Hubert

    I’m just happy that Frank may get a better look.

    What’s “a better look,” though? If they give him 20 mpg as the primary ballhandler in an unstructured offense and tell him to eat what he kills, he’s not going to do much better.

    The article GoNYGoNY posted about makes the case that I think has been pretty obvious from the start: he needs to play with a table setter, not be the table setter. So many of his misses are bad shots that come from his inability to do what the role he’s in demands him to do.

    A proper look for Frank has to be sharing the backcourt with Smith or Payton, and ideally with Barrett, Randle, and Robinson up front. But that means he’s getting minutes over Trier, Knox, and Morris. And I don’t see Fizdale letting that happen. Morris is here to play. And Trier and Knox are Fizdale favorites.

  18. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    @18

    I think he’s a very good fit with someone like Barrett “if” one of them is hitting 3s because they can both handle the ball and make plays. That may be more of a long term “idea” because neither of them is likely to be a “good” 3 point shooter this year.

    However, I think he’s fine as a secondary play maker with either Smith or Payton and can also play some SF. Depending on the role, he’s going to handle the ball a different amount of the time and may make more or fewer plays, but ideally you want him locking down, making some plays, and continuing to develop on offense. You don’t want him buried behind scrubs that can score 20 points on 20 possessions but can’t defend or make plays.

  19. alsep73

    The Nets signed our old friend Lance Thomas. I look forward to Brooklyn fans spending this season asking “Why?” whenever Lance is on the court.

    Also, this pretty much rules them out of signing Carmelo. When you can’t beat Lance Thomas for a roster spot…

  20. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    @19 – That was what I was thinking. If Barrett can be the #1 option, it’ll work. All I want to see this season is an improvement from Frank from outside. But pairing him with Smith and Payton can work. Also, if ball-dominant Trier ever learned to pass the rock, he could pair nicely with Frank.

    @18 – The ideal situation is what I’m hearing from the players about how they believe Fizdale is going to handle playing time: 100% based on merit. I’ll believe it when I see it, but if effort and practice is rewarded, it could be transitional.

  21. Hubert

    I think he’s a very good fit with someone like Barrett “if” one of them is hitting 3s because they can both handle the ball and make plays. That may be more of a long term “idea” because neither of them is likely to be a “good” 3 point shooter this year.

    If Frank could actually be the offensive player he is in those videos, pairing him with Barrett in the backcourt would be incredibly versatile on defense.

  22. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    @21

    Here’s the thing about playing players based on merit.

    If the coach/management overvalues scoring potential relative to defense, play making, scoring efficiency, basketball IQ etc… he’s going to conclude that Knox and Mudiay deserve a lot of minutes based on merit.

    I don’t want to be too hard on Knox because he’s also very young, needs to get stronger, and will improve with experience. But he was dreadful on BOTH sides of the ball last year. Same with Mudiay, but not quite as bad. They were stinking out the joint but he kept playing them. One bad game from Frank or Dotson put them in the doghouse.

    That’s clueless.

    I get trying to develop Knox last year, but Mudiay made no sense and there was every reason to try to develop Frank and Dotson, especially because some of the best lineups contained those 2 players in combinations with Robinson and Vonleh.

    Merit is not some objective standard. It’s subjective and I don’t trust our coach and management.

  23. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    If Frank could actually be the offensive player he is in those videos, pairing him with Barrett in the backcourt would be incredibly versatile on defense.

    100%

    I like it a LOT from a theoretical standpoint. I’m patient enough. Is management?

  24. Hubert

    Yeah, to Fizdale, merit simply seems to mean “aggressive on offense”.

    He needs to pay more attention to lineup data than he did last year. If – again – the best lineups have Frank in them, then he shouldn’t be benched for guys who are putting up points simply because they take a lot of shots.

  25. thenamestsam

    41 just seems like a total pipe dream to me. We were 30th in offense and 26th in defense last year and to get to .500 you figure you need to be coming out to on average around 15th in both (just as rough guideline). Just to humor the premise I guess my theory of how it could possibly happen would be: first and foremost Mitchell really is already the star that some here think he is, particularly defensively and getting him up to 32 minutes a night is such a gamechanger that we get up to say 12th in D. And then on offense, we still lack game changing talent but the vets take a lot of load off the younger guys who slide into more appropriate roles and without a few guys really submarining the offense it gets up to like 18th or 19th. Throw in some good luck in close games and that maybe gets you there. To be frank though both of those feel like tremendous reaches. I would be pretty surprised if this is not a bottom-10 defense and bottom-10 offense again.

    As for the 2nd part I think if you’re hypothesizing a situation in which the Knicks young guys lead a surge to .500 it’s not impossible that we could see it that way a year from now. The fact that Russell was no longer cost-controlled right as the Nets blew up meant that they had to basically trade him off for one of their big-money slots, which is something we wouldn’t have to worry about in this hypothetical. And Mitchell really popping could give us a significant edge in terms of top-end talent (although I think even in his high end scenarios he’s not necessarily going to be perceived as a star). The Nets have like 5 young guys under control who have shown they are NBA rotation guys though. And all of this is starting from the point of assuming the Knicks team wins ~25 more games than last year so…

  26. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    @23 – I get the lack of trust in management and our coaching staff. And playing Mudiay, who they weren’t going to keep, did seem stupid. I don’t know why they didn’t play Frank and Dotson with Vonleh and Robinson more. I agree with your previously stated complaint about not resigning Vonleh too. I would much rather have Vonleh at $2M vs Portis at $15M. Portis might be a better offensive player but it was a head scratcher.

    I’m going into the season skeptical about Fizdale too, but I’ll give him a chance to prove that he knows what he’s doing. BTW, one of my concerns is that there is no true defensive-minded coach on the staff. Maybe Mike Miller will step into that role. I don’t know. But without the emphasis on drilling that into the team, I’m concerned. But I’ll wait and see. This team is designed to play rough-and-tumble basketball. Players like Kevin Knox and even Julius Randle, could use that coaching.

  27. Hubert

    41 just seems like a total pipe dream to me.

    It absolutely is.

    But it’s also unnecessary. I don’t think the Knicks need to win 41 games and make the playoffs for stars to take them seriously. I think if they win 34 games with young talent while looking decent for most of the season, that will do the trick, too.

    I mentioned it yesterday, but we have a very, very low hurdle to clear. We’ve just hired so many fools that can’t even clear a low hurdle.

    What did Walsh do, for instance? He drafted Gallinari. He hired Mike D’Antoni. He cleared cap space. And boom! He was able to get Amar’e Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony, and Tyson Chandler to overlook a decade of institutional rot.

    Melo got excited to come here because we got off to a 14-10 start. Chandler signed up after we got swept from the playoffs as a 7 seed. We don’t need to win 41 games and make the playoffs to be taken seriously.

  28. DRed

    asking “Why?” whenever Lance is on the court.

    KD loves Lance.

    To get to 41 wins you’d have to assume the Knicks play Mitch at center a lot, he plays like an all-star, and either Peyton or DSJ plays like a league average PG, we give heavy minutes to Bobby Portis, Randle, Taj Gibson and Wayne Ellington and I guess Marcus Morris, and some of the kids don’t actively suck. It’s a lot that needs to go well with nothing going wrong.

  29. alsep73

    KD loves Lance.

    I love lamp.

    Meanwhile, from Shams:

    Sources: The Memphis Grizzlies and former No. 4 pick Josh Jackson have agreed for him not to join the team in training camp, and start the season in the NBA G League.

    Woof.

  30. JK47

    The guard play on this team is likely to be somewhere between “bad” and “black hole.”

    Elfrid Payton is a pretty nice boxscore-stuffing PG but he’s not without his shortcomings and he is by far the best guard on the roster. The other guards are so-far-bust young players (DSJ, Frank), dime-a-dozen veterans (Ellington, Bullock) and rookies who are likely to struggle (RJB). I honestly don’t see how you get anywhere near 41 wins with that guard rotation.

  31. DRed

    I honestly don’t see how you get anywhere near 41 wins with that guard rotation.

    You have to imagine DSJ or Frank taking a big leap and Payton shooting better. It’s not likely, but it’s possible.

  32. Hubert

    41 wins isn’t even an ideal outcome.

    The Lakers won 37 games but got the #4 pick. Would they even have gotten AD if they had won 41 games and lost to Golden State in round 1? The best case scenario for the Knicks this year (on the court) is around 34 wins with solid contributions from the kids.

    Side note: for all the grief he gets here, it’s worth pointing out that the NBA is gravitating towards Strat’s preferred way of rebuilding over tanking. The Clippers and Nets followed “the Stratomatic method” to a T, and now it looks like the Knicks, after one fruitful year of tanking, are taking the same path.

    And there’s a reason for the shift, too: given the shortening of contracts, an established star or two is available literally every year. The odds now considerably favor acquiring one on that way over through the draft.

  33. Bruno Almeida

    @34

    How exactly? What strat always said is that teams shouldn’t be bad ever, they need to incrementally improve their team by good signings and winning trades. How is that even remotely similar to opening cap space and swinging for superstars? The Nets also had no draft picks and were thus literally unable to gather assets and work with the draft, and the Clippers are coming from a rebuild after years with the CP3 / Blake core where they were capped out and had no relevant picks too.

    It’s also super easy to come out now that the NBA changed the lottery odds and say hey, teams aren’t trying to tank anymore so you were all wrong! The NBA changed the rules precisely to take away what was a very effective rebuilding strategy and to force teams down “the strat path” of finding other ways to get better.

  34. thenoblefacehumper

    Coaching matters, role matters, etc. but at a certain point if you find yourself constantly arguing that the only reason Player X hasn’t excelled is because he hasn’t been used correctly, you’re probably not sufficiently weighing the possibility that Player X is just bad.

    Because of the way the draft works, the top lottery picks go to terrible, dysfunctional teams all the time. The good ones still tend to show they belong, and pretty early at that. Nobody had any questions about the long-term viability of 19 year old Kyrie Irving on a team coached by Byron Scott with Ramon Sessions as its second best player.

    Perhaps Frank Ntilikina could carve out an NBA role if he’s used perfectly, whatever that looks like for someone who can’t shoot, dribble, or rebound, but how much time are you willing to spend on finding the proper way to utilize Frank Ntilikina? What’s the payoff? What opportunity costs does it come with?

    When I take all of that into account, I continue to doubt that the Knicks, or any other NBA team, will view Ntilikina as a worthwhile investment.

    But hey, I have no problem with picking up his option and giving him all the minutes he can handle (or not, because that ruins his confidence or something, but also you can’t give him too few minutes, because then he’s in the doghouse because the morons don’t appreciate defense and whatnot). We’re not exactly doing anything else important or interesting anyway.

  35. swiftandabundant

    It makes total sense to play Mudiay as much as Fiz did when you’re trying to secure the worst record so you get the highest pick.

    And there is the rub when it comes to tanking. A coach/team can’t say their tanking or else they get fined. And even if they do weird shit like bench their best player when he’s not hurt, they risk getting fined or even getting their draft pick messed with. So a team has to say stuff like its a development year, we think Mudiay can be a key piece going forward, etc. I’m not saying they traded for him specifically to tank. I think they did want to give him a look. But I think they also realized that giving Mudiay a long look would be good for the tank.

    I mean, Fiz had issues with Gasol in Memphis the one year he was a coach, but its not like he played awful players over good ones on that team. They still made the playoffs. I honestly think dude was given the edict to tank and playing Mudiay and Knox heavy minutes was a good way to insure that without getting in trouble because you could say “oh these are young lottery picks, we’re trying to develop them.”

  36. JK47

    The Clippers and Nets followed “the Stratomatic method” to a T, and now it looks like the Knicks, after one fruitful year of tanking, are taking the same path.

    The Clippers were in a completely different win curve situation. If you’re a perennial 45-50 win team, yeah, tanking is probably not a great strategy. The Nets’ best players last year were 22-year old D’Angelo Russell and 20-year old Jarrett Allen. They also got some value from young players like Spencer Dinwiddie and Caris Levert, who were scrap heap pickups. They got almost all of their value from the kind of young players you look to pick up when you’re rebuilding.

    Most of us here who are considered “pro-tank” are actually pro REBUILD. Acquire assets with upside, don’t fuck around with market value veterans, acquire draft picks and players on rookie contracts until you’re ready to push your chips in. This is pretty much what the Nets did. They took lots of chances on young players who still had upside, and enough of them paid off. That’s the idea!

  37. Frank

    Just looking at 538’s projected wins for the Knicks, there are some really weird assumptions made re: minutes.

    DSJ is expected to play 30 min/game – sounds reasonable.
    Julius Randle will definitely play more than 28 minutes/game although maybe not a lot more.
    If Knox (25) and Barrett (28) play more minutes/game than Mitch (22), I will go nuts.
    WTF would we only play Marcus Morris 19 minutes/game?

    I’m not clear on the stats behind their projections, but a fair amount of the downside of this team on both ends of the court are tied up in Knox’s absolutely horrid projections + the assumption that he’ll play 25 minutes/game even if playing that horribly. While that was true last year, I doubt he will get the same rope this year given all the other wings/4s on the team.

  38. alsep73

    And there is the rub when it comes to tanking. A coach/team can’t say their tanking or else they get fined.

    And that means it’s difficult to parse a lot of Fiz’s dumber-seeming decisions of last season. Was he riding Mudiay as a tank commander, or because he liked his aggressiveness and believed he could fix him? Was Knox’s green light a developmental choice or another tank move? Or a bit of both? Did Frank go in the dungeon because Fiz didn’t like his game, or because the team actually played well for a few games when Frank was starting? Etc, etc.

    We know they are trying to be competitive this year. I’m skeptical of Fiz — guys like Brett Brown have demonstrated ways to build a system even in tanking years, as opposed to whatever the bleep our offense was supposed to be — but there’s at least a chance that he proves to be much better at rotation choices and Xs and Os than he was last year.

  39. GianaDani

    Think some people confuse us with a regular 17 win team, when we were clearly trying to lose on purpose. Knicks would have likely won 23-27 games last year, so from that perspective 37 games is not impossible considering we added a ton of odd talent, RJ & guys are maturing. Fiz would actually have to coach and be a value add.

  40. thenoblefacehumper

    Side note: for all the grief he gets here, it’s worth pointing out that the NBA is gravitating towards Strat’s preferred way of rebuilding over tanking. The Clippers and Nets followed “the Stratomatic method” to a T, and now it looks like the Knicks, after one fruitful year of tanking, are taking the same path.

    How many god damn times does this need to be easily debunked? I’ve gone through all the ways it’s obviously wrong in detail, but basically the Clippers couldn’t have done any of this shit without #1 overall pick Blake Griffin, while the Nets did every aspect of Hinkieism besides getting the high lottery picks (because they didn’t have them). Seriously, they took on every salary dump they could. For all intents and purposes they tanked, ignoring the embarrassment of handing over their specific pick every year.

  41. ptmilo

    man i thought we’d have to build our way up to this argument as the season progressed but looks like everyone showed up to camp in game shape. i admit some surprise that the new nba moneyball consensus has converged around “winning trades” and never trading courtney lee or kyle o’quinn on principle but here we are. first they ignore you.

  42. DRed

    WTF would we only play Marcus Morris 19 minutes/game?

    He’s not particularly good and we’re giving minutes at his positions to RJ and Knox and Randle

  43. GianaDani

    OT: Charlie Scharf left Mellon Bank to go run Wells Fargo this morning. In two hours, WFC market value is up by $8 Billion while BNY Mellon is down over $2 Billion. How does Buffet & the Board decide Charlie’s compensation based on his performance & value add?

    This is what LBJ was talking about being underpaid with max contract. He saw first hand back in 2010, what happened to Cleveland value vs Miami.

  44. Bruno Almeida

    @45

    Honestly, it’s just because Hubert comes up every now and then with this weird sense of justice, trying to argue poor disenfranchised strat is being unfairly targeted by the mean pro stats guys.

    You guys spent a lot of time saying the freaking Sixers, who won 50 games in back to back seasons and are a mortal lock to win at least 50 again, are not a proof tanking could work, yet now the damn Nets who haven’t played a single game with this new squad are somehow a success story and a model for other franchises to follow.

  45. Hubert

    Wow, you guys will go to some lengths.

    What strat always said is that teams shouldn’t be bad ever, they need to incrementally improve their team by good signings and winning trades. How is that even remotely similar to opening cap space and swinging for superstars?

    Why can’t you do the former while maintaining flexibility for the latter? That’s what LA did. That’s what Brooklyn did. That’s what we’re trying. That’s the correct way to execute his method of rebuilding. The trick is to execute the plan with young players and short term contracts, not old players on long term contracts (that’s the “Phil Jackson method”).

    The Clippers were in a completely different win curve situation. If you’re a perennial 45-50 win team, yeah, tanking is probably not a great strategy.

    They were a perennial 50 win team because of Paul and Griffin, and they reached the end of the line with them. The traditional rebuild style would have been to trade those guys off for as many picks as possible. They opted to eschew troves of picks and bottoming out to acquire good players instead. Players who could keep them in the 40+ win range. It’s exactly what he’s always argued for.

  46. Hubert

    Seriously, they took on every salary dump they could.

    What is the difference between acquiring a good pick for an overpriced player and winning a trade?

  47. JK47

    They were a perennial 50 win team because of Paul and Griffin, and they reached the end of the line with them. The traditional rebuild style would have been to trade those guys off for as many picks as possible. They opted to eschew troves of picks and bottoming out to acquire good players instead. Players who could keep them in the 40+ win range. It’s exactly what he’s always argued for.

    Yeah but for Chrissake it makes zero fucking sense to do this if you’re a 20 win team. If you’re a 45 win team and you have some useful pieces and not a garbage fire of a roster, sure, roll over some cap space and try to hit some free agent home runs. It’s not that far back to 50+ wins! If you lose the guys who got you to 50 wins but you have enough guys to have you hanging out at 40+ wins, that’s a different situation from sucking ass for 20 years and having zero talent on your roster.

  48. thenamestsam

    I do think the Clips are a pretty good argument (and there are others) that you can do something other than lean in to the boom-bust cycle when you’re reaching the end of the line with a good team. That said, that’s still a pretty different question than one the Knicks have ever been asking, given that they were coming from the starting point of being a good team. The question of whether to try to go up or down from the starting point of 25 wins does not necessarily (and I would argue does not) have the same answer as from a starting point of 45-50 wins. I would also argue that a lot of their best moves showed a real willingness to get worse if that’s where the value was – e.g. despite being in the playoff chase last year they dealt their best player for future picks at the deadline.

    The Nets would have picked 1st and 3rd at the bottom of their cycle if they had owned their own picks. They totally bottomed out. What’s impressive is that they managed to cycle back up without the actual benefits of those picks and if anything it highlights that the pluses of rebuilding are not limited to the picks you make; they got Levert and Allen from picks they got from dealing veteran contributors. They got a bunch of picks and Russell taking on bad money. They took fliers on young guys and found Dinwiddie and Harris on the scrap heap. Because they didn’t care about winning they gave all those guys all the minutes they could handle and developed them all really well. All of those are the benefits of rebuilding, not reasons to say it wasn’t a factor in their success.

  49. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    they opted to eschew troves of picks and bottoming out to acquire good players instead.

    And then Kawhi and Paul George went to one of two franchises that are close to their hometowns, and it took a mother fucking fuckton of draft picks and a young upwardly-rising stud to get George and his enormous contract, which he will almost certainly opt out of in 2021 for a 10-year max with a high likelihood of getting a designated player max, which will probably start at $50M a year. Despite that, the strategy actually fucking worked, but–

    Acting like the Clippers aren’t the exception is reeeeeal disingenuous. But if you think your team is savvy enough to target value contracts, hell yes the strategy will work. If you can convince Masai to trade Siakam for supermaxed Blake Griffin, do it. Lou Fucking Williams at $8M AAV? Holy shit.

    But there are probably a dozen players in the league in 2018-19 that were significant value contracts — Kemba, J. Allen, Turner, Mitch, Siakam, Dinwiddie, Randle, Noel, LouWill, RoCo, maybe Vonleh (!), KOQ, a bunch of rim-running glue guys and any other rookies killing it– and half of them were in line for enormous contracts this offseason and most of the other half, like the stud rookies, are untouchable.

    I often suggest grabbing picks because the perceived value of a future pick is much higher than actual value in the hands of most franchises. (Or the 2nd-best player in the draft falls to the 20s.) No one who believes that a max-worth rookie in the hand is worth two (or three) lottery picks in the bush would argue that stockpiling draftees is better than taking back proven NBA players who provide excellent value for their cap space. I don’t understand why this is so hard to understand.

  50. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I think the role model for rebuilds is the NY Yankees. In their “down” year, they sold off their big assets for prospects and were back in the playoffs right away. Yeah, comparing the Knicks to the Yankees is idiotic for many reasons, but the essential fact is that the Knicks are much better poised today to follow a similar model. They have more picks, fewer long-term contracts and some promising kids. They aren’t good but they are currently deep.

  51. Bruno Almeida

    Why can’t you do the former while maintaining flexibility for the latter?

    You can, but that’s not the discussion, because it’s not what strat proposed when he was talking about the ways the Knicks should rebuild. The Clippers and the Nets were in vastly different situations comparing to the Knicks.

  52. Hubert

    Whether you want to admit that Strat was ahead of the curve or not, it is readily apparent that the combination of shorter contracts and flattened lottery odds makes being in the 30-38 win range a much better place for a large market team to be than it used to be, provided you’re not going all out with old players on long term deals to get there. And bottoming out is now a bad place to be if you’re a large market team.

    If I’m looking for ideal outcomes this year, 34 wins > 41 wins > 17 wins.

  53. djphan

    it’s going to be pretty hard to get to 41 wins…. that would entail not playing knox and frank and then having dsj and rj put up roughly solid years (>.100 ws48s) AND getting moderate improvement from the new guys…. in other words we’d have to look a little like the nets did last year…

    but it’s also important to remember that the nets were a 28 win team before that…. and there were lots of reasons for that drastic improvement but the lions share of it came from d’angelo russell’s leap into relevance….

    betting on that happening to one of our guys is not a bet anyone should be making… but it’s not impossible… very rarely is improvement small and incremental…. it usually happens by leaps and bounds… and if someone… like smith or payton…. makes that leap then we have a shot to be … well not bad…

  54. geo

    here ya go stat heads:
    On Friday, Belichick’s thoughts on in-game analytics were sparked by a question on older players, such as Bills running back Frank Gore, 36, continuing to have success in the NFL. Belichick was asked whether his view of players and their age has changed due to advances in conditioning, exercise science and nutrition.

    “It’s a really good question,” he said. “Personally, I just try to take everything based on what I see, and not try to maybe read too much into other numbers and so forth. As you know, analytics is not really my thing. I don’t know if there’s any set formula or model for what it is today or what it was some other year. I’m sure you could go to some analytics person and they’d be able to give you a great numerical answer on that.”

    eye test, all day every day baby…

  55. Bruno Almeida

    @56

    Unless he’s a clairvoyant and knew how the lottery would be changed, and the way it would be changed, I don’t think there’s much to admit here.

    You’re conveniently ignoring that literally nothing the Clippers have done would have mattered if they weren’t specifically in LA. The same can probably be said for Brooklyn albeit the LA connections with Kawhi Leonard and Paul George are a lot more obvious. It can’t be a blueprint if it only works in a situation where the exact combination of this one specific star with a super specific demand is on the market.

    If Giannis decided to leave the Bucks and for whatever reason he says he’ll only play in Chicago, then the strategy matters very little as Giannis, just like Kawhi, would be in complete control of the entire situation. You could argue Leonard wouldn’t have gone to the Clippers if they sucked, which might be true to might not be, but even if you admit that as true it still doesn’t matter for the Knicks specific side of the argument.

  56. Bruno Almeida

    If you admit Leonard to the Clippers only worked because Leonard was only going to a LA team, then it becomes a similar situation to the building through draft arguments. People say, but what if the 1st overall pick turns out to be a bust? Then the question is, well, what if Giannis or whatever star simply does not want to be in the city or the organization you have?

    All things considered, with the heavy drafting strategy at least you still have the leverage of getting one or more guys that will play for you for a period. With the Clippers strategy, if you whiff on the one transcendent star available, you’re left with a 38 win team that’s also likely to go nowhere. All that matters is if you think the chance of making incremental improvements to the 38 win team is better then striking gold in the lottery / asset gathering period. I still think the second option is safer and more likely to produce results.

  57. Hubert

    Unless he’s a clairvoyant and knew how the lottery would be changed, and the way it would be changed, I don’t think there’s much to admit here.

    The shorter contracts are a much more significant change than the lottery odds, and those were already well in place.

    To get a star through the draft:

    A) there needs to be one

    B) it needs to be clear who it is

    C) you need to win the lottery

    The new rules only effected C. It’s not like that changed the math incredibly. There’s still only 1-2 can’t miss guys every ~7 years on top of a draft vs a much higher number of stars available every single year via trade or free agency. This summer alone, there was 1 star in the draft, and 5 available via trade and free agency.

    You’re overweighting the impact the flattened odds.

  58. JK47

    To get a star through the draft:

    A) there needs to be one

    B) it needs to be clear who it is

    C) you need to win the lottery

    Wrong. Many, many, many star players have been drafted by teams that did not win the lottery. Don’t even make me list the dozens of examples.

    What you need is A LOT OF PICKS. That gives you more darts to throw at the board. I kind of can’t believe we’re really arguing this but here we are.

  59. bockadoo

    Saw another reference to the Jets having Belichick for 24 hours way back when and how things would have been so different. No doubt he is one of the best coaches ever and would have made a massive difference. My question is: Would you rather have a young Tom Brady or a young coach Belichick? I go with Brady.

  60. Hubert

    Jesus. Every star was once a draft pick, so yeah, you’re going to win that one.

    Let’s reframe it: Even under the old lottery odds, if you were a large market team like the Knicks, Lakers, Clippers, Nets this past summer and Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, and Kyrie Irving were available, would you have a better chance of landing a star if you were a 40 win team with a solid base or a 17 win team?

    For the 17 win team, you needed to win the lottery and you needed Zion to be there. The low factor is Zion being there. You get a clear generational talent every 6/7 years., whereas in this environment we get between 1 and 5 established stars available every single year. Whether you multiply the odds of him being available by 25% or 14% doesn’t make the probability greater than the large-market-40-win team’s ability to land one of the 5 stars available via free agency or trade if they’ve been rebuilding well.

    The shortened contracts are a much bigger factor than the flattened odds.

  61. Hubert

    And what is this BS about the Clippers being lucky Kawhi and George are from LA?

    There’s a rational person here who believes if Paul George was from Seattle that he would have declined the chance to join this superteam?

    I can see if Memphis pulled off something like that. But Los Angeles? Please. NBA stars have been gravitating to large markets (LA in particular) since George Mikan. Don’t tell me it was some incredible fluke that the Knicks will never be able to replicate unless we find two stars who were born in the Garment District.

  62. JK47

    Jesus. Every star was once a draft pick, so yeah, you’re going to win that one.

    Dude, it’s your terrible framing that’s the issue here. To get a star through the draft, you need to win the lottery. You said that ish. Maybe don’t say stuff that’s clearly wrong and I won’t need to be Captain Obvious over here.

  63. JK47

    Let’s reframe it: Even under the old lottery odds, if you were a large market team like the Knicks, Lakers, Clippers, Nets this past summer and Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, and Kyrie Irving were available, would you have a better chance of landing a star if you were a 40 win team with a solid base or a 17 win team?

    Would you have a better chance of being a 40 win team if you had stockpiled assets and drafted quality players with them, or by signing a bunch of mediocre free agents to market value or below deals? This is really the choice we’re discussing here.

    People have a problem with the word “tank,” and the concept of “tanking” when just about everybody here in the “rebuild” camp has said that the idea is to COLLECT ASSETS. Use the cap space to take on a bad contract and snag a draft pick, don’t give the money to Taj Gibson and Duke Ellington. That’s what everybody’s sweethearts the Nets did, they damn sure didn’t build a winner by signing a bunch of Nikola Mirotic type players and chasing down marginal wins.

    Rebuilding doesn’t mean “lose as many games as possible and try to win the lottery,” it means “trade pieces that are not relevant because of win curve for future assets.” The Knicks fuck this up constantly, they constantly make win now moves when the team is 50 million miles away from being able to win. It’s been like 20 years of this shit at this point. Build around youth. Sign star players once your core of young players looks promising. Why the fuck is this controversial? I really do not understand.

  64. thenamestsam

    Putting the goal posts at “Would you rather be a 40 win team with a promising core of talent or a 17-win team?” is still a complete distortion of any question that has ever been debated on here. Nobody in the entire world thinks it’s bad to be a 40 win team with a promising core. The question is what to do when you’re a 25 win team without a promising core, and if your answer is “Duh, become a 40-win team with a promising core” then some people, myself included, don’t really consider that a very satisfying answer.

  65. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    would you have a better chance of landing a star if you were a 40 win team with a solid base or a 17 win team?

    Of course you would. Here are the 40-ish win teams from 2018-19.

    Miami, 39, $153M
    Detroit, 41, $126M
    Orlando, 42, $114M
    Charlotte, 39, $121M
    Sacramento, 39, $101M
    LA Lakers, 37, $107M

    Miami used their cap space on Jimmy Butler, who seems to be in significant decline from his peak years. They will have $11M to play with if they renounce all rights in 2020-21 and all player options are executed.

    Detroit could have as much as $61M in cap space if Drummond opts out, another $12M if Snell opts out. That would leave them with Blake, Derrick Rose, and rookie-contract players.

    Orlando is capped out until 2021-22 unless Evan Fournier declines his player option, which seems mighty unlikely.

    Charlotte will have $50M in cap space in the summer of 2020-21 and $27M more if Batum opts out, which is highly unlikely. They have holes all over the lineup and look like a 35-win team right now. Tons of expirings (Biyombo, Williams, MKG combine for $45M in expirings) but who the fuck wants to play for Charlotte?

    Sacramento is capped out but will have around $30M in space if they let Ariza, Bogdan, Ferrell, Matt Barnes and Tyler Ulis walk. Bogdan isn’t going anywhere, so I’d suspect that they will have zero cap space as they prepare to extend Bagley and Fox. Not a FA destination.

    Lakers will have $2M in space if they let Cousins, Dudley and Howard walk after the year, but I would guess that Davis will decline his option and sign a 2+1 so he’s eligible for a max around $46M in 2022. Either way, they’re going to be plugging holes on that roster with ring chasers and castoffs, so it doesn’t really matter.

    40ish doesn’t seem like a great place to be unless you’re able to shed salary while preserving the core. Let’s not forget that the upward-rising Nets traded their best offensive player to get an injured scorer…

  66. GianaDani

    There clearly more than one way to skin a cat. While some strategies have better odds then others, its really about the execution. Both Warriors and Patriots have won multiple titles using exactly opposite strategies. Warriors use soft human approach and analytics while Patriots use tough love “do you job’ and eye test. Cashman openly tells players “my job is to replace you” and he’s one of the best in the business.

    At end of the day, question to ask yourself is “do you trust Mills/Perry to execute their plan and Fiz to get the most out of the players he has?”

    Fiz got a pass till now because it is really difficult to look good while loosing on purpose. My problem with Perry/Mills is that they just keep kicking can. With those two, it’s not about any wrong moves that they made but its about the lack of opportunities they passed up on.

  67. swiftandabundant

    41 wins would be dope IF it was largely on the backs of our younger players.

    If we win 41 games bc RJ wins rookie of the year, Randle continues to improve and takes on the alpha role well, DSJ/FRANK/KNOX/MITCH/TRIER all show improvement…then we are absolutely in a great place and should be happy even if it means a lower draft pick next summer.

    If its 41 wins because Taj Gibson, Morris and Ellington are playing a ton of minutes and our youngsters all are just getting bench minutes and not looking great, then we’re in more trouble. Although it still wouldn’t be the worst place. We can pick up the options on those vets for next year and see if the youngsters improve next year.

    The good news is that, in my mind at least, I can’t really see us winning 41 games UNLESS at least a few of the youngesters take a nice step forward.

  68. geo

    Would you rather have a young Tom Brady or a young coach Belichick? I go with Brady.

    ha…too funny bockadoo – i’d pick belicheck every time…as much as i dislike the pats – they do a phenomenal job with their roster and payroll…

    i’m not sure there’s ever been a player more valuable to their franchise than what belicheck has done for the patriots…

  69. thenoblefacehumper

    Maybe I’m crazy but I just don’t think there’s much for the New York Knicks to glean from what the Clippers did in the aftermath of their perennial 55+ win contender in order to stay relevant. Kinda seems like we need to do the whole “get Blake Griffin, Chris Paul, and DeAndre Jordan and have a 5 year contending run” thing first, but what do I know?

    Again, the Nets example makes no sense to anyone who was paying attention to what they were doing. There were no Courtney Lees, or even Bobby Portii. They kept their cap clear of garbage and filled it with stand ins for picks. They filled out their roster with NCAA/G-League standouts. It was exactly what the allegedly wrong people here have been advocating forever. What do you know, those picks and flyers turned into good, cost-controlled players and then they were a hot destination for free agents. The fact that they succeeded is actually a point in favor of dedicated rebuilds.

    Is this entire premise based on the fact that they signed Jared Dudley to a one-year deal prior to this season? I don’t see literally anything else that matches the description of some “hybrid” strategy nonsense.

  70. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I wanted to see what we thought of SGA before the draft last year:

    http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-2018-03-23/

    Highlights:

    1) Farfa and a bunch of other people saying, “Dear god, anyone but Sexton.”
    2) A lot of people wanting SGA with few reservations.
    3) TNFH saying that he wanted to trade down for any two of Robert Williams, Zhaire Smith, SGA or Troy Brown, any pair of whom would make me fucking filthy wet for this season.
    4) 2For18 calling Sexton a “baller”
    5) iserp calling for tanking for Kawhi via FA (RIP hopes and dreams)
    6) A lot of people saying trading for Kawhi would be a huge mistake, which I will not hold against them.
    7) kevin5318 posting a tweet to a rumor that the Knicks wanted Knox, which promptly outrage from the usual realists.
    8) Icing on the fucking cake: Henry George responding to the Knox rumors (in March!) with:

    I continue to be amazed at how easily folks fall for anything they read.

    Sukkaz!

    LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

  71. Knew Your Nicks

    Im not a prophet but i believe that if the Cavs or the Bucks had grabbed and kept wounded Embiid and the Sixers had taken one of the rest of the 2014 draft then the Sixers would suck till forever.
    In my mind its not about stockpiling assets.
    Its all about picking correctly and developing the right way.
    But that requires knowledge, talent & experience and i doubt that our FO & coach have these qualities…

  72. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Im not a prophet but i believe that if the Cavs or the Bucks had grabbed and kept wounded Embiid

    Did they?

  73. Hubert

    Dude, it’s your terrible framing that’s the issue here. To get a star through the draft, you need to win the lottery. You said that ish. Maybe don’t say stuff that’s clearly wrong and I won’t need to be Captain Obvious over here.

    I didn’t lay out A B and C?

    Probability of landing a star =

    Probability there is one X

    Probability you know who he is X

    Probability you win the rights to draft him.

    Flattening the lottery odds didn’t change the math that much. The low probability comes from the first two.

  74. Hubert

    Jowles I clearly said “if you were a large market team” before that quote you abridged. I don’t know what sacramento and Charlotte have to do with markets stars want to play in.

  75. Brian Cronin Post author

    Is this entire premise based on the fact that they signed Jared Dudley to a one-year deal prior to this season? I don’t see literally anything else that matches the description of some “hybrid” strategy nonsense.

    I think that the “hybrid” stuff for them is just that they had no draft picks, so they couldn’t get lottery picks like other teams in their situation. I agree that beyond that, they just clearly acted like every other rebuilding team should, so it’s a meaningless distinction. They just collected assets while losing until they had enough assets that they weren’t losing anymore.

  76. BigBlueAL

    Game 1 of the ALDS is in exactly 1 week at Yankee Stadium. I’ll go back to being a depressed Knicks fan when the Yankees are done playing, hopefully 1 week into the NBA season :-)

  77. Hubert

    Putting the goal posts at “Would you rather be a 40 win team with a promising core of talent or a 17-win team?” is still a complete distortion of any question that has ever been debated on here. Nobody in the entire world thinks it’s bad to be a 40 win team with a promising core. The question is what to do when you’re a 25 win team without a promising core, and if your answer is “Duh, become a 40-win team with a promising core” then some people, myself included, don’t really consider that a very satisfying answer.

    So much twisting of words,

    We have said for years that if you’re a 17 win team, stay a 17 win team as long as you can so you can accumulate more picks bc rebuilding through the draft was the best way.

    We have said for years that we shouldn’t pursue marginal wins that put us in the 8 and 9 spot in the lottery.

    Do not sit here and tell me that has not been a constant theme here.

    Now, because there are so many stars available every year via trade and free agency, because all of them want to go to large markets, and because the lottery is so random… NOW it’s actually better to pursue those marginal wins (if you’re the Knicks, not if you’re the Charlotte Hornets), as long as you maintain the flexibility to sign a max free agent. Now it’s actually better to do what Perry did this year than to stay on the mat have the worst record in the league. Now the opportunity cost of doing that *for us* – again, not for Charlotte – is too high.

    ^ that’s the point y’all are arguing against. Go ahead and make an actual counter instead of trying to make 100 different mini arguments and bringing up Phil Jackson. Tell me why we’re still better off trying to accumulate multiple years of top 5 picks while stars are going to every large market team except us.

    If you wanted to follow last season with another 17 win season, you’re stuck in the past.

  78. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    We have said for years that we shouldn’t pursue marginal wins that put us in the 8 and 9 spot in the lottery.

    If and only if those wins come via expiring contracts or late-career vets. If they come from organic growth, that’s a completely different thing altogether. That IS the blueprint, IMO, and I think those generally in my camp (the Brunos and JK47s) would agree whole-heartedly.

    I mean, I wanted Brandon Clarke more than anyone available. Do I really think Brandon Clarke is ever going to average 25 PPG on .620 TS% with a nasty set of unguardable moves, a la James Harden? Hell no. But I do think he’s going to contribute 5-7 wins against average at the least, maybe 16 PPG on .600 TS%, and I think he’s going to be one of those players that is forced to accept a Larry Nance Jr.-like contract extension, and r/nba will argue at length over whether he’s even worth that. But Memphis will be thrilled when he signs it because they know guys like him are good as hell at winning basketball games. Those are the players I want to carry the Knicks to an 8-seed and the position to jump into the top 3 with a marquee FA or trade.

    No one wants the Knicks to remain a 17-win team in a sustained way. Three years of being the dregs is not good for the franchise, especially since that means their lottery picks have been rubbish. We want the growth to come from lottery picks and draft steals. Even the occasional veteran reclamation project. But not from Marcus Morris and Wayne Ellington.

  79. JK47

    I guess I just don’t buy the rationale that the superstars of tomorrow are going to want to play for NYK because the Taj Gibson/Wayne Elllington/Marcus Morris marginal wins fooled them into thinking the Knicks are a legit team. I’d rather have a 1RP than that Taj Gibson/Marcus Morris cred.

    I dunno, maybe it’ll work but it seems like you’d get better results stockpiling draft picks and going with a youth movement. You can even trade the draft picks you have stockpiled for disgruntled stars! This is at least a different approach for NYK, so I’m somewhat intrigued. This should be an interesting season.

  80. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The Bucks are one superstar and a whole shitload of plus players. I don’t think you can just pick an MVP at #15 every year, especially one who is a point guard who’s 7’0″ and can’t shoot a three to save his life but is basically Shaq in the year 2019, but you can definitely load up on solid role players by picking productive performers from the NCAA and then roll the dice on the superstar-mold players every now and then.

    I’m gonna go drink this Lagavulin now.

  81. Knew Your Nicks

    Tanking and Picking productive performers from the Ncaa is the safe/boring/uncreative way to go.
    Picking Giannis, Kps, Ntilikinas and even Knoxes is the ‘gambling’ way which could turn to bust or beast.
    Personally I’m tired of mediocre knicks but I also don’t believe in everlasting tanking.
    Finding Mitches and Triers at the garbage tells me that you can make a good team from 0.
    But you have to know the game well.
    And risk.
    There are other 29 teams wanting the same shit…

  82. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    41 wins can happen if Robinson and Randle play like STAT and Chandler and if we’re not lighting minutes on fire. If I were to take a guess, I’d say our leading minute getters will be Randle, Robinson, Morris, Payton, and Barrett. If you’re going to get anywhere in the .500 ball park, you’re going to need Knox, Trier, Smith Jr, and Ntilikina to not light their minutes on fire. I think the presence of Payton, Ellington, and Morris prevents the team from playing young players a bunch of minutes they don’t deserve, and a “merit” based starting line up of Payton, Barrett, Morris, Randle, and Robinson with a 2nd unit of Smith Jr, Trier, Knox, Portis, and Ellington could get you where you need to be.

    Also, I don’t think the “what is the best path to contention” argument would be an argument if the Knicks simply drafted better. They went to all those Kentucky games and thought Knox was the star over a guy like SGA because “we already have Frank” and “Knox just killed Miles Bridges in a workout.” Barrett was the right pick by my estimation, but you can’t be bad and then burn all of your efforts that season by lighting lottery picks on fire. Nobody gets it 100% right (the Clippers took Jerome Robinson right after they took SGA, and even though we took Knox we also got Trier and Mitch), but it comes down to how you play your hand. This current FO seems to overvalue year-to-year flexibility and not stockpiling assets. I will say that the KP/Willy trades and the Mitch pick were great, but if the goal is Giannis in 2021 then we need to knock the 2020 draft out of the park and hope that a nucleus of LaMelo Ball, RJ Barrett, Julius Randle, and Mitchell Robinson is enough to bring the Greek Freak to New York.

  83. Z-man

    If the Knicks being good this year depends on RJ being good, Then the Knicks will not be good. 19yo rookies almost always are net negative players..

    Put another way, there is a far better chance that Knox is a positive contributor than Barrett.

  84. Bruno Almeida

    NOW it’s actually better to pursue those marginal wins (if you’re the Knicks, not if you’re the Charlotte Hornets), as long as you maintain the flexibility to sign a max free agent. Now it’s actually better to do what Perry did this year than to stay on the mat have the worst record in the league. Now the opportunity cost of doing that *for us* – again, not for Charlotte – is too high.

    Nobody is disagreeing with your argument in a vacuum, we are disagreeing with your argument on context. Like jowles said, the main point here is HOW you pursue those marginal wins, who are the players who take your team to 30-40 wins. The Knicks have hovered around 30 wins some in the past decade and it never mattered because it always came in the back of veterans who weren’t a part of the team’s future and ended up leaving or declining heavily before we could do the second step in your plan.

    We’ve been saying this for years, every single time a win prediction thread comes up, “I’m fine with wins if they come on the back or young players or guys under good contracts for long periods”, you must have read this a ton of times already. Keeping flexibility and still winning games is really fucking hard, specially when you come from a practically zero baseline of talent like the Knicks did.

    The Clippers gathered a billion assets and interesting players by breaking up the CP3 Blake core, they got Lou Williams, then re-signed him to a super below market deal, Harrell, Beverley, Tobias Harris, all guys who were integral to those wins last season. They started at a much higher level of talent simply because they had two superstars to trade away to begin the rebuild.

    It’s not easy to simply make a 17 win team win 40 games without adding productive veterans who will want large contracts

  85. Z-man

    Thing is, the current Knicks roster has several kinds of flexibility. It’s not a clunky hybrid model like The one Phil botched. They can still take on salary dumps in exchange for expiring deals…not as fungible as cap space but with the benefit of being somewhat competitive while further developing a young core.

  86. Z-man

    It also is true that drafting smart and building chemistry are critical, especially for a franchise that has been a laughing stock for so many years.

  87. thenoblefacehumper

    that’s the point y’all are arguing against. Go ahead and make an actual counter instead of trying to make 100 different mini arguments and bringing up Phil Jackson. Tell me why we’re still better off trying to accumulate multiple years of top 5 picks while stars are going to every large market team except us.

    With less money than was given to Portis alone, the Knicks could’ve taken on Harkless’ expiring deal and gotten a first round pick. Harkless is the superior player by every metric, and is only two years older. We know for a fact that this opportunity existed because the Blazers had to search for a long time to find someone willing to do it.

    For almost the exact amount of money given to Portis and Gibson, the Knicks also could’ve taken on Iguodala’s expiring deal with a first round pick.

    We’d have two extra first round picks and I’m not sure we’d lose a single more game than we will with the path we actually took. You really think this would’ve been stupid because of the possibility that Portis and Gibson will trick Giannis into thinking the Knicks are on the cusp?

    See here’s the thing about guys willing to take these year-to-year free agent deals that preserve flexibility: they tend to not be very good. So sure, I’ll eat my words if Taj Gibson, Bobby Portis, Marcus Morris, Wayne Ellington, Reggie Bullock, and Elfrid Payton make the Knicks an irresistible destination for the top players in the NBA. For now, I’ll confidently say that I would’ve preferred to get more opportunities to draft our own good players.

  88. Bruno Almeida

    @90

    It does, that’s why I’m a lot happier than during the Phil days, no matter the criticisms we might have about the particular moves, it’s still far better than being on cap hell with loads of bad veterans and a 30 win team.

    The question is if the Knicks can keep this flexibility and still make the leap Hubert proposed, and I don’t think that will happen. This cap flexible team with assets is for me a 28-32 wins team still, I can’t see how this group will reach the threshold of 40 wins unless some major developments take place and well, if those developments happen we will be happy already, because it means one or several young players took massive leaps.

  89. thenoblefacehumper

    I mean the more I think about this argument the more ridiculous it becomes. Even if you want to give NBA players zero credit for being able to determine how good a team’s actual core is, they have entire teams of agents, advisors, etc. who will give them this information.

    So even if Giannis himself is intrigued by the Knicks chugging along to 37 wins or whatever with the help of a bunch of guys they can’t keep if they sign Giannis, he’ll have a bunch of people in his ear telling him “slow down, here’s approximately how many wins came from the guys you’d actually be playing with.”

    As our side of this debate has always maintained, if that number is high, great! I have never seen anyone complain about wins fueled by guys that might be part of a core, whether it was Porzingis or Hernangomez or Mitch (ain’t exactly a long list huh). Those are the kinds of marginal wins that could be useful in luring free agents.

    But Maurice Ndour hitting a game winner on the last day of the 2017 season that tied our win total with the Wolves’ and put us in Frank Ntilikina land didn’t attract a single extra free agent and that’s factorial.

  90. thenoblefacehumper

    Yeah, we’re in much better hands than we’ve been in for a very long time. Our decision makers appear to be mediocre, which is an enormous step up from Phil Jackson et al. They haven’t cut off any and all paths to contention. It’s not the worst time to be a Knicks fan by any means, or even in the bottom 20. This season should be somewhat interesting, at least for a while.

    Some of us were just hoping for a management team that was actually, you know, good. They exist!

  91. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Here’s a question for y’all:

    Which players will make their first All-NBA team this year, and which perennials favorites will find themselves on the outside looking in?

  92. GianaDani

    game plans, business plans, start ups or business re-org strategies matter and statistically increase chances of success. Seems like some only differ on the math of which plan the probability percentage is higher based on various weight they personally assigned each component in the formula.

    If Walsh executes his silly plan and beats out his opponent, who had the same exact plan, by signing Lebron and Bosh in 2010, – we win a few titles instead of Miami and Walsh is considered a genius with a master plan.

    It all comes down down to execution and betting on the right horse. See Ujiri. There were many posters here who said they didn’t want Kawhi because of his injury history and poor attitude as a shitty teammate. Same is being said now for KP. (injury and attitude). We’ll see who’s right Cuban or Perry/Mills on that decision.

    Rockets, Brooklyn, Philly & both LA teams just pushed their chips all in. Only one and maybe none will work out. There will be explosions and people getting fired by trade deadline in 2021 from those six teams. Disgruntled superstars from those six teams will become available again in 18-24 months. We’re positioned well financially when that happens but still need to ball out and create a buzz with plus players, otherwise chances of execution diminish.

    Perry/Mills just keep making tiny little moves and you can’t build a championship team without handing out huge long term contracts. They weren’t even able to execute their plan of sacrificing KP for KD and Kyrie. Brooklyn has that bet now,- so they then played it safe by kicking the can…this ONLY helps those two gentlemen continue to stay employed.

    Phil was fired two years ago and these two guys bought another two years regardless of team performance. They’re smart and figured out that Knick fans are so tired of management betting on wrong players, – that they welcome this strategy.

  93. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    @95

    We are still in a terrible position, but not because we are old, capped out, have no picks, and suck like the old days.

    We went from that horror show to having a mix of good young talent and veterans, all out picks, 2om of cap pace, and very good basketball minds building a team, but with horror show GM level decision making on veteran contracts.

    We got rid of Phil/Gains and his smart basketball people (that were clueless at GM level decision making), moved Mills to President instead of GM (after he also screwed the pooch with Hardaway and the 20m), hired a reasonably competent GM in Perry (nothing special but no disasters), but now we have a management team that doesn’t know a damn thing about basketball talent or how to fit pieces together in order to create a winning team.

    We are doing a much better job of not making GM level errors on veteran contracts due to Perry, but we need competent basketball people to take advantage of out space flexibility and picks to draft and bring in the RIGHT kinds of players or we are going keep treading water unless we get extremely lucky.

  94. GianaDani

    Since Phil was fired, during Mills/Perry tenure, the following players switched teams.

    1) Antonio Davis
    2) LeBron James
    3) Kawhi Leonard
    4) Kevin Durant
    5) Kyrie Irving (twice)
    6) Jimmy Butler (twice)
    7) Paul George ( twice)
    8) Chris Paul (twice)
    9) Kemba Walker
    10) Blake Griffin
    11) Victor Oladipo
    12) D’Angelo Russel
    13) Kristaps Porzingis

    Impossible not to love most of the above players. Missed opportunities are just as devastating as wrong bets to organizations, – only difference is management is not fired as there are a boat load of excuses for missed opportunities as opposed to bad bets.

  95. ptmilo

    Which players will make their first All-NBA team this year, and which perennials favorites will find themselves on the outside looking in?

    i’ll guess that westbrook has made his last all nba team. i’m interested in what interesting stuff the rockets try, but i think russ’ inherent age risk and james harden are not tailwinds.

    doncic has a shot at being a 20 yr old all nba-er. i’m a big de’aaron fox fan, and it’s possible, but ben simmons is probably the number 2 candidate. also wouldn’t be hard to see siakam taking blake’s spot.

  96. Z-man

    I agree that it would have been nice to have those 2 first rounders for Iggy and Harkless, but it’s also true that I am more excited for this season because the guys they brought in are guys who a) want to be here and b) we want to have here. Harkless is what he is, not a chance he will develop further. Iggy would clearly be bought out, freeing up a roster spot when we really don’t need a freed up spot. I feel pretty certain that we indeed would/will have lost more games had we gone the former route, or at the very least would have a far lower ceiling. Since we have surplus picks already, at some point, let’s see a team with some cohesiveness and chemistry on the floor rather than stockpile lottery tickets. So long as we have at least some commitment to rebuilding with long term flexibility to make a splash if the opportunity presents itself, I’m good.

    The two teams I think are in for the rudest awakenings are the Celts and Nets. Maybe the Lakers too if AD gets hurt.

  97. Early Bird

    Randle was the best fit for the Knicks this offseason. Signing him was the best move they could make and they went out and signed him.

    That sounds like basketball people to me.

    On the other hand, phil signed Derrick Rose and Arron Afflalo. Clearly great basketball moves.

  98. thenoblefacehumper

    We went from that horror show to having a mix of good young talent and veterans, all out picks, 2om of cap pace, and very good basketball minds building a team, but with horror show GM level decision making on veteran contracts.

    One of my favorite things on here is when Hubert insists that Strat is misunderstood and obviously doesn’t think Phil Jackson was good, and then Strat just comes in hot with the “Phil Jackson was very good” take. I mean, he just said Phil Jackson was part of a team of “very good basketball minds building a team.” Couldn’t be much clearer.

    Anyway, no, Carmelo Anthony with a full NTC, Courtney Lee, and Joakim Noah taking up about 52% of your cap is not good. It sucks ass. It’s not negated by the presence of a single intriguing prospect who currently ranks 12th in his own draft class in career BPM. There is not a single observer of the NBA who looked at our team at that time and called it “a mix of good young talent and veterans.”

    Good on Phil for trading the 31st pick for nothing instead of 30th, thus allowing Strat to maintain that we “had all of our picks.” Prescient move there. Gotta hand it to him. The new guys actually got us surplus draft picks, but that opportunity wasn’t available to Phil for reasons only the truly enlightened understand.

    It’s pretty odd to view $20M (less than 20% of the cap) in cap space as a sign of great planning while glossing over the fact that the new guys have pretty much kept open…the entire cap, but again, I guess it’s just something I wouldn’t understand.

  99. JK47

    We went from that horror show to having a mix of good young talent and veterans, all out picks, 2om of cap pace, and very good basketball minds building a team, but with horror show GM level decision making on veteran contracts.

    This is an incredibly embarrassing post and you should ask the moderators to delete it.

    You really harp on that $20M Hardaway contract and yes, that was bad, but the “very good basketball mind” who had this team in such a supposedly great position made far more egregious mistakes by giving out interminable contracts to bad players. Which is somehow not his fault. We all know who those bad players are so please stop making us re-litigate this. MegaMaxMelo, Joakim Pinchpost and Courtney Lee were Phil Jackson mistakes and they were franchise crippling moves and you really sound foolish when you try to argue otherwise.

    Hubert is going to say we’re being mean to you now but you really need to let go of the idea that Phil was anything resembling competent as the POBO of this team. He was an abject failure and you need to process that and live with it. You’re not going to gaslight us into somehow accepting you were right about Phil Jackson or whatever it is you’re trying to do.

  100. GianaDani

    Phil Jackson bet his job on Melo and gave him Jr. Smith, Derick Rose, Noah, Lee and Shumpert with Fisher as the guy to put it all together. Hindsight is 2020 and its easy to see these were all huge mistakes now…but the time Melo was a fringe MVP candidate, Rose a former MVP, made a comeback, passed his eye test & while putting up 18 PPG. Noah was a all NBA defender, NY native, good culture guy and perennial winner since Florida days, while JR Smith, Shump and Lee were more than OK at the time.

  101. thenoblefacehumper

    Yeah, total hindsight. Everyone on this board loved the idea of signing Carmelo Anthony to the largest contract in the NBA with a full no trade clause, trading for Derrick Rose, and giving Joakim Noah 4/$72M. Those threads are nothing but us all singing the praises of the Zen Master, and now everyone wants to be a Monday morning quarterback. Can’t argue with that.

  102. JK47

    Hmm, the way I remember it, the people who post here who have normal brain function were uniformly on the side of “these are terrible moves” while morons like reub were in the “Phil Jackson has forgotten more about basketball than you guys ever knew” camp.

    Weird, maybe I’m remembering it wrong.

  103. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    http://knickerblogger.net/2016-fa-roundtable-joakim-noah/

    http://knickerblogger.net/2016-fa-roundtable-willy-hernangomez-and-mindaugas-kuzminskas/#comments

    http://knickerblogger.net/2016-fa-roundtable-brandon-jennings/

    lol Z-man

    But yeah, I’m definitely riding the Rose Express full steam ahead until it derails, so get used to it. If you want to gloat when that happens, more power to you and the rest of the box score geeks.

    lol

    http://knickerblogger.net/2016-fa-roundtable-head-coach-jeff-hornacek/#comment-539006

    How about you simply promise to post one of the following two sentences:

    1) I, Cock Jowles, was totally wrong on the Derrick Rose trade, and Phil Jackson was totally right, and I will never criticize him again for this deal.

    2) reub is my daddy.

    Guess what I never was obligated to write!

  104. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Ugh, it gets better:

    I noted the irony of a certain poster defending the Derrick Rose deal and shitting on the Spurs’ roster in the same breath:

    Well, Jowles, let’s take a closer look:
    Their Big 3:
    Kawhi Leonard: top-5 player in the NBA
    LMA: someone who you essentially described as Carmelo West before last year
    Danny Green: 2016 TS%=.492, WS/48=.099

    Not old and good:
    Patty Mills

    Over The Hill Gang:
    Tony Parker: 34 YO, terrible in playoffs last 2 years, not great the year before that either
    Manu Ginobili: 39 YO, down to 1100 minutes last year (19MPG)
    Pau Gasol: 36 YO 2016 TS%=.529

    The rest:
    Assorted scrubs and young, unproven guys (including the great Kyle Anderson)

    Sound like a 60+-win team to you?

    Narrator: “It was.”

    http://knickerblogger.net/2016-fa-roundtable-head-coach-jeff-hornacek/#comment-539192

  105. Knew Your Nicks

    Being Optimistic during the PJackson/Melo Knicks era looks similar to growing your hair&beard, wearing psychedelic clothes, painting your body and getting stoned during the 60s !
    Many Years later it seems kitsch & dumb & immature but WHO FKN CARES ?!?
    I believed in PJax too.
    I had the need to believe in him.
    I defended his moves believing that he knew better.
    Time showed the opposite.
    He made mistakes. He tried dated plans. He lost his bball magic….

    So what ?
    Peace & Love !

  106. Knew Your Nicks

    According to a latest us research Optimistics live longer than pesimistic s.
    I give our off-season moves an A- – –
    ;-D

  107. Owen

    I wish I could do anything in life as well as Jowles searches the archive….

    I was vaguely pro-Noah. I let go a bit there and tried to be a fan. I always loved him as a player. Born New Yorker who loved the Riley Knicks. Balled in the NCAAs. Excellent in the NBA. He was good in Memphis this year, bearing out my prediction he’d provide some value on his deal. :-) Man, that was a bad contract

  108. JK47

    I hated the idea of Joakim Noah the second it was rumored, and I hated it even worse when I found out how ridiculously shitty that contract was. And lots of people here basically said I was a pessimistic crank so to those people I say “I told you so.”

    I gave Phil Jackson a chance but I knew his tenure was a failure with that signing. Fuck you and your pinch post, Phil.

  109. Brian Cronin Post author

    I hated the idea of Joakim Noah the second it was rumored, and I hated it even worse when I found out how ridiculously shitty that contract was. And lots of people here basically said I was a pessimistic crank so to those people I say “I told you so.”

    When you read the old threads, the thing that really stands out to me is the anger from dudes defending moronic decisions. I really don’t even mean any of our regulars. If you look at those older threads, the angriest dudes were guys who you don’t see anymore (I’d like to say because they were embarrassed, but more likely they just didn’t like us pointing out their poor takes all the time, which, hey, fair enough, I guess. Don’t hang out somewhere that you don’t enjoy hanging out). There was this one guy in the Melo Max thread that Jowles linked to recently that was really going hard at anyone who disliked the Melo deal. I don’t believe he’s around anymore. Heck, ruru didn’t even go that hard at people who didn’t like the Mega Max Melo deal, for crying out loud. This dude was actually rocking, “You’re all just jealous of Melo!”

  110. GianaDani

    Phil struck out in 3 pitches and we moved on. Point is that it’s soo easy to make a poor decision and swing at dirt. The difficult thing is to make a call & turn out to be right like Ujiri did.

    Not making any calls, is either:
    A) a wise patient leader who avoids traps & moves to the drum of own beat.
    B) a selfish empty suit with no guts who strikes out watching.

    Are Perry/Mills, A) or B)?

  111. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    The Joakim Noah deal was definitely a bad one, but I didn’t expect it to be so bad so quickly. I thought he had at least another year and a half of Bulls-level Noah, but that guy never showed up because he was “too lit” for New York. For him to bounce back in Memphis (albeit in way less minutes than he would have been playing in New York) was annoying and spoke more about his character and the organizational culture more than it spoke about his health.

  112. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    The big thing that I remembered after reading the old threads is that I got a speeding ticket 3 years ago on my way to work :(

    There was more hopefulness that we could find something with the old, broken down players (Noah, Rose). Who here suspected that Phil Jackson was slipping into dementia? There’s something to be said about both Rose and Noah. Neither of them are out of the game. Neither of them are all-stars or even starters, but both are contributing to NBA teams. Last year’s per games:
    Rose 51 G; 27.3 MPG; 18.0 PPG 48.2 FG%; 2.7 TRB; 4.3 AST
    Noah 42 G; 16.5 MPG; 7.1 PPG; 51.6 FG%; 5.7 TRB; 2.1 AST
    Those numbers indicate that some their coaches found some value in them.

  113. ptmilo

    if you could get the 24th pick in 2020 for a package of either 1. knox and frank or 2. dsj and trier, would you? and if so, which of those two packages would you rather give?

  114. Owen

    DSJ and Trier are gonezo….

    Although a trade of Knox and Frank for the 24th could lead to the departure of Mills and Perry, starting a cascade that leads to Masai arriving in NYC. In which case that.

  115. thenoblefacehumper

    I’d probably do the Knox and Frank package, due to a combination of getting to reset the RFA clock and my lack of faith in both of them.

    I don’t think I’d do the DSJ/Trier package, because Trier alone seems likely to outproduce the average 24th pick and I’m still holding on to my DSJ penny stock.

  116. Donnie Walsh

    Is the Obey Mozgov shirt still a top seller here at KB? (I mean to ask that question every time I see the ad for it)

  117. alsep73

    Is the Obey Mozgov shirt still a top seller here at KB? (I mean to ask that question every time I see the ad for it)

    I like that all of the shirts are for players no longer on the team.

    Time to come up with shirts for the new guys? Problem is we can’t agree on nicknames for guys like Mitch.

  118. ptmilo

    the thing about trier is that he’s an RFA this summer and 24 in january. so either he has a real jump year and you have to pay him or he doesn’t and he’s close to worthless. the rfa rights aren’t totally worthless, but they’re probably not all that valuable either. for example anfernee simons is a similar type of player (meaning only bad d score first smooth looking guard) and was the actual 24th pick in 2018 who didn’t have trier’s 18-19 showing. but he is 3 1/2 years younger and has 2 extra control years so still has at least some shot at being a rookie deal homerun. i think the blazers say no to trier for simons in a heartbeat and similarly think trier’s trade value is very low despite having a rookie year way more exciting than a typical 24th pick.

  119. Z-man

    I think each of the 4 guys are at least as good as what you hope to get at pick #24, and most players picked that low don’t pan out. Frank and Knox were serious reaches but are still young enough to show something this year. If there was a 2019 redraft and Frank, Trier, Knox and DSjr were included, do you think any of them would get picked at or above #24?

  120. Bruno Almeida

    I would probably trade Frank, DSJ and Trier for the 24th but not Knox. We still have 3 years of control over Knox contract and we should just wait and see if he develops. I would trade the others mostly because they will have to be re-signed soon and they haven’t shown enough to be sure fire re-signings, so it makes sense to roll over for a new prospect with 4 more years of team control. I like Trier a bit but I think his ceiling is a competent 6th man, so I’d be comfortable trading him for a better asset under team control.

  121. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    I was going to say none of them, but when I consider the contracts…maybe all of them.

    Trier was an awesome find for an undrafted rookie, but one more year of cost-control and then he’ll be overpaid for his one skill: one-on-one offense.

    I still believe in Frank’s potential (against the odds), but it’s a few years away, and meanwhile we have to pay a pretty steep sum to keep him, with no certainty of a timeline where he contributes.

    DSjr is, like Frank, running out of time to prove he’s worth the price. I never was high on him, and still worry about his knees – which isn’t minor, as his athleticism is his only real advantage, since he’s indifferent on D and can’t shoot.

    Knox is in the best contract situation, and I believe in him the least. I feel the odds that the rest end up as contributors of one kind or another are reasonable: maybe as a sixth man scorer, maybe a defensive glue guy, maybe an explosive lead guard capable of breaking down defenses. But Knox can… shoot pretty well from 3 for a rookie? And is tall? Still, in terms of ROI, it is too early to trade him for a pick that is equally or more uncertain.

  122. heavencent35

    The sad thing about Frank situation is we are not playing and developing him bec he’s not good but we are playing the likes of Mudiay and other PG vets. Given that our team is nowhere close to a playoff seed i think that is a bad combination for the management and coaching staff.

  123. geo

    little downtime this sunday… go g-men…everything gettlemen touches will turn to gold…wish hard enough and it’ll be true…cuz, I wanna believe…

    more than a little anxious for the yanks…anything less than a series appearance will feel kind of disappointing…I mean, how long can our “luck” against the twins hold out…and, then there will be the ‘stros…waiting…with home field advantage…with like 20 totally amazing starting pitchers…

    I do though look forward to watching tanaka pitch in the post season…dude is clutch – even if it does take him near a full minute to throw a single pitch…when he’s on the mound you really need to settle in and relax…

    been giving our heart and horror some thoughts also…doing some knick web roaming.. gotta say, for every one positive article out there for the knicks, at least 3 or 4 times as much negative stuff…

    it’s late september though…and, I choose to believe that despite whatever our record may be at the end of the year – it’s gonna be a better year than last…and, despite our record last year, it was most definitely better than the year before that – and, so on…

    we have at least a handful of professional basketball players on our roster this year – not something to be totally taken for granted…who knows – maybe fiz really can teach defense…

    even with a grand total of 26 to 34 wins, it can still be a good year…as a knick fan – I’ve just come to expect/accept a little less from the orange and blue…

    oh yeah, favorite on court uni’s: those dunking donut colored jerseys…

  124. Z-man

    I guess I’m less concerned with team cost control and more concerned with having good players. The vast majority of guys available at #24 or below are bad, and that you’re going to wind up with team control over a bad player. I think each of the guys suggested are more likely to be good NBA players than the typical #24 pick. Trading two of them for a #24 seems to be a low percentage play.

    I do think more highly of Knox and Trier than most here. Frank (less so) and DSjr (more so) are still interesting to me and I’d like to give them one more shot to impress before ditching them.

  125. Early Bird

    I’d give DSJr a shot, I think that’s it.

    The contract for Frank is too short to make a difference, Trier is probably close to his ceiling and only has this year left.

    Knox vs. 24th pick? I take the 24th every time out of 100. Maybe I take Knox once, giving him the benefit of the doubt as a rookie.

  126. Z-man

    Trier was an awesome find for an undrafted rookie, but one more year of cost-control and then he’ll be overpaid for his one skill: one-on-one offense.

    Lou Williams was hugely valuable to the Clippers last year. We have no idea whether he’ll be better at other aspects of the game, but even as a pure scorer off the bench, he could be a very valuable player, even more so if he ups his 3-pt volume. Offense is king in today’s game, especially if you have a potential DPOY guarding the rim and blocking 3’s at the same time.

  127. Z-man

    But the question wasn’t about individuals, it was about trading two players for one pick. I would definitely trade Frank for the 24th on his own, would consider trading DSjr, and probably wouldn’t trade either Knox or Trier individually.

  128. KnickfaninNJ

    I agree with Z-man. A number 24 pick usually doesn’t get you an NBA player, even though it’s obviously a possibility. I have more faith in Frank and DSJ than that, especially because they are point guards, and point guards often take a long time to develop. Knox has clearly not been given enough time and I wouldn’t trade him either. Trier I have mixed feelings about. If the right guy was available at 24, maybe, but not for a future 24 we know nothing about.

  129. Early Bird

    You also have to consider that we get 2 extra roster spots now. I take my chances with a pick and two roster spots of landing someone. If the contracts were longer and more favorable on Frank and Trier, I keep them. I probably keep Knox and DSJr, but that’s close still.

  130. thenoblefacehumper

    Trier’s contract situation is a drag, but I think he’s got potential that a lot of folks here overlook because he’s such a stereotypical New York Knick.

    Amassing a .564 TS% with a pretty horrid shot chart is (unnecessarily) difficult. He shot 39% from 3, yet only took 25.5% of his total FGAs from there. It’s not the biggest stretch stretch to think he could approach the .600 TS% range with some natural improvement, better decision making, and better coaching. That’s kind of what Klay Thompson did (obviously, that’s where the similarities would end even if you think Klay is overrated defensively). That would be a pretty damn valuable player at his usage.

    How likely is it that all of those things happen? Not terribly, but I think it’s a better bet than the 24th overall pick in just about any draft I can remember.

  131. bobneptune

    We still arguing about Daniel Jones or what? You see what he wore to the stadium? Talk about a nerd.

    Yeah…. he had a crappy day today completing only 74.2% of his passes today. He DID make 2 particularly bad plays today but he also extended 3 drives with his legs. He dropped down to third in the league in total QBR:

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

    I’m guessing not many people would rather have Haskins over him today :-) Also note Deandre Baker’s name didn’t get mentioned a single time and Ximines got another half sack, Slayton caught a couple of balls and made some terrific downfield blocks. Connelly played great until getting carted off.

    By the way that shitty Tampa team the Giants beat last week put an absolute thumping on the LA Rams today. Minnesota will be a real test for this team next week especially with Connelly carted off with only 3 healthy linebackers and facing Mn running game.

  132. Z-man

    I mean you can always get lucky and have a Mitch fall into your lap, but being we have 5 picks in the next 3 drafts, including likely non-lottery picks via Dallas, I don’t see the point in flushing these guys unless you are convinced that you will not get any surplus value from them. Frank looks like a minimum salary guy who might at best earn mid-level money in the next 1-5 years, so I could see bailing on him. DSjr has a very high ceiling but a dismal floor, so probably a good risk to keep around for at least the next few months. I think Knox would certainly go at higher than 24 if he re-entered the draft based on upside alone (meaning he would, not he should) so I’d give it another year. At worst, he’s like Bargnani 2.0 in that another dumb GM will bite for more than that if he shows even a slight improvement in, say, rebounding.

  133. KnickfaninNJ

    Unfortunately, it’s almost inevitable that some important role player on some team that considers itself a contender will suffer an injury at some point. That would be the time for us to trade someone and get value in return.

  134. bobneptune

    You can’t lead a football team looking like a dang poindexter!

    Opie Taylor beat the Patriots twice in the Super Bowl :-)

  135. bobneptune

    Unfortunately, it’s almost inevitable that some important role player on some team that considers itself a contender will suffer an injury at some point. That would be the time for us to trade someone and get value in return.

    Some podcast I listened to yesterday (Lowe Post or Woj) remarked some contender will find it is short a 4 and will have to trade with either Orlando or the Knicks who both have a bunch of them. Seriously.

  136. geo

    By the way that shitty Tampa team the Giants beat last week put an absolute thumping on the LA Rams today.

    get your tickets now – we’re a lock for the hard rock in february…

  137. bobneptune

    get your tickets now – we’re a lock for the hard rock in february…

    I live in Pompano Beach in the winter so that would be terrific……

  138. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    Some podcast I listened to yesterday (Lowe Post or Woj) remarked some contender will find it is short a 4 and will have to trade with either Orlando or the Knicks who both have a bunch of them. Seriously.

    @154 – Yeah, but that would be after Dec 15th the day that signed free agents can be traded.

    One might call the stockpiling a strategy. What are Portis or Gibson worth to a contender ? A 1st rounder? Where’s that 1st round pick going to be? Let’s do a little exercise. Who would you want to get back in such a trade? Here’s a list of 20 players:

    Kyle Lowry, , Andrei Kirilenko, Serge Ibaka, Tayshaun Prince, Gerald Wallace, Rajon Rondo, Nicolas Batum, Boris Diaw, Darren Collison, Jeff Foster, Ryan Anderson, Jared Dudley, Kenneth Faried, Tony Allen, Courtney Lee, Jarrett Jack, Morris Peterson, Clint Capela, Kenny Thomas, Mason Plumlee

    There was discussion about a 24th overall pick. I selected the top-20 players drafted 20-25 in the past 20 years listed, in descending order, by win share. That’s 100 players. This is the cream of that crop.

    In the past 20 years, the Knicks drafted Wilson Chandler, Tim Hardaway and Donnell Harvey in that range. Some decent pieces but does “meh” sound right?

  139. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    I got my Christmas present from my girlfriend early this year.

    Knicks/Mavericks 11/14. :-)

    I’m looking forward to seeing the Mavs. They are a few pieces away from having a good team, but they could have something special brewing in a few years. KP will probably take a couple of months to mentally recover from ACL, but supposedly Doncic lost weight and is in way better shape coming into this season. A quicker version of Doncic with a year under his belt should be a lot of fun to watch on offense and may not be a liability on defense.

    Lee’s contract is irrelevant given where they are in their rebuild. They are still a few years away from being really good. He will be gone at the end of the year (as would have Noah’s if we didn’t stretch him to make space for different veterans for a year lol). So they’ll have one more year of overpaying Hardaway after this year (which sucks), but ultimately if they can keep his leg healthy they’ll probably bring him back at a fair price to be a 6th man. I would say the 2021-2022 season is the year they may start making a splash, but they’ll be fun to watch in the mean time.

  140. Hubert

    If you think you have a feather in your cap about Jones, Bob (and you do), I have a good friend who I watched the game with yesterday who went a few steps further than you. He’s a Duke grad who was pining for Daniel Jones to be a Giant all last year and spent the summer swearing up and down that we would all love this kid. He drinks for free these days.

    Side note, as you always bring up Kiper as an anti-Jones voice:

    Yesterday my friend mentioned to me that Mel Kiper had it right, so I googled Daniel Jones Mel Kiper and it seems like actually Kiper was a defender of the pick.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sybo-7SKndM

    (It’s never good when you hear your argument coming out of Stephen A Smith’s mouth.)

  141. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    If the Knicks get a pick for one of their excess PFs, at the very best it will be some mediocre future 1st rounder where they’ll select some 18 year old role player that will be peaking in the 2028/29 or 29/30 season.

  142. Grocer

    some 18 year old role player that will be peaking in the 2028/29 or 29/30 season.

    Says the guy who thinks the folks who drafted an 18yo Ntilikina were possessed of great basketball minds.

    The important point is that we need to think strategically and geometrically. We should draft a 22yo role player who will peak in 2022/23. I can’t say who specifically because I’m not privy to all the deep franchise goings on, but there’s certainly no one like that on the Knicks right now!

  143. Z-man

    The Noah stretching never made sense to me, and whiffing on big ticket FA’s only makes it harder to forget our friend in Montana.

  144. DRed

    I read an article or a blogpost where a guy was explaining a method for valuing individual defense he’d developed and at the end of it his formula said Tim Hardaway Jr was one of the most valuable defensive players in the NBA.

  145. Grocer

    Lol @ 166

    First impressions from Mills & Perry … damage control

    “We wanted all these guys from the start, they were all on our board and let me tell you, these guys all had other options and they ch-ch-choose us! The Knicks are basically Pikachu. What’s that? Yes, we are very supportive of the new tampering rules. Unrelatedly, of course. Also we want to win. Haha, no we’re not making the playoffs.”

    The question about Carmelo’s future was so on point I was dying.

  146. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    It just seemed like, from the first second, Mills was looking for any type of distraction from the “why didn’t any big names sign with you?” question.

  147. Grocer

    For sure, they all mentioned it. I guess that’s better than talking around it? Came off as kinda desperate tho, “we had plenty of offers for meetings with big names, these are the players we wanted.” Might even be true, I know I didn’t want KD after the injury.

  148. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I’m with you about that. How do you pay max money for a broken product?

    By cooing softly at images of the product before it was broken. 2020-21 is gonna be a rough season in BK.

  149. geo

    I read an article or a blogpost where a guy was explaining a method for valuing individual defense he’d developed and at the end of it his formula said Tim Hardaway Jr was one of the most valuable defensive players in the NBA.

    i remember one time i was wasted and watching a knick game – for like half a second i thought to myself that TH2 was playing good defense…

    in that case my method was weed and beer…

  150. geo

    watching the press conference now…glad to see mills so “excited”…listening to perry say ah and um…over and over and over again…

    still, trust him a whole lot more than mills…

    oh yeah, i just picked up some specs just like fiz’s…good to see he has good taste :)

  151. bobneptune

    If you think you have a feather in your cap about Jones, Bob (and you do), I have a good friend who I watched the game with yesterday who went a few steps further than you.

    Like I said… I never saw the guy play and had no opinion until his first exhibition game. My main objection was people with little understanding making absolute comments. Which is rampant among “knowledgable NY fans” (such bullshit) and media blowhards.

    The hate for Gettleman is completely irrational IMO. Anyone take a minute to look at his record ? He was a scout for the Bills when they accumulated the talent to play 4 Super Bowls, was a scout for Denver’s 1997 Super bowl team and was the Giant’s pro personnel director for 12 years and two superbowls. He has seen the accumulation of talent for 8 super bowl teams close up.

    He was then GM of the Panthers and their record in his 5 season was a terrific 51-28-1 with a super bowl trip.

    He made a great decision to dump Landon Collins, and traded Odell and the incredibly overpaid Olivier Vernon for Peppers, Zeitler, Ximines and Dexter Lawrence.

    He then had the temerity to find a guy he loved as a franchise QB and picked him….. why all the hate???

    Anyone who saw the 2 QB’s on the field have a pretty good Idea who the better player is now and forever.

    Hopefully we’ll have some interesting Knick stuff to talk about soon….

  152. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    Mills is taking a lot of heat for his comments about purposely not pursuing max players. I don’t understand that. Do people think he’s talking about KD, Kawhi, and Kyrie Irving? It’s clear to me (and consistent with everything from last season, mind you) that the Knicks did not want to pay the Jimmy Butler, Kemba Walker, and Tobias Harris types max dollars. I don’t like what they did this off season, either, but you can’t fault them for taking that stance. To me, it shows they understand the win curve more than they did in recent years. That’s improvement, I guess.

  153. geo

    The hate for Gettleman is completely irrational IMO.

    cuz, when he speaks he sounds like a dick…until the giants start winning consistently and maybe make the playoffs – it’s gonna be hard to look past that…

    Anyone who saw the 2 QB’s on the field have a pretty good Idea who the better player is now and forever.

    i’ll be honest, draft night i was kind of hoping we’d pick haskins (if we passed on the kid allen from kentucky)…glad we got jones now…the giants have been pretty unwatchable for years (even with obj and barkley) – much more interesting a team now that we’re moving forward and developing a young qb…

    haven’t taken the time to dig in to the game stats, but, seems like their defense may be coming together some…winnable game against the vikings…keenum loves to share the ball with the defense…

  154. Frank

    I really do find it hard to be too upset with Mills and Perry (the combo, not pre-Perry Mills).
    They took a huge swing and it came up snake eyes. If Durant doesn’t tear his Achilles, it’s pretty likely to me that Kyrie and a healthy KD are doing a press conference in Westchester today rather than one in Brooklyn last week. All the moves — the Noah stretch, KP trade, etc etc would look perfectly fine.

    They obviously struck out big, and are doing their best. I obviously wish they hadn’t signed all these guys and instead either kept some cap space and roster spots in reserve to facilitate trades during the season or (preferably) have taken on Iguodala or whoever for assets, but it’s not a total given yet that all these dudes won’t turn into trade assets as the year goes on. If the west is really wide open this year, I can very much imagine a team like Portland giving up a protected 1st round pick for Marcus Morris (ie. for Bazemore or some such trade) – they have 3 dudes that all are best off at center that probably can’t survive on the floor in the playoffs (Nurkic, Whiteside, Zach Collins) playing PF.

  155. Brian Cronin Post author

    If Durant doesn’t tear his Achilles, it’s pretty likely to me that Kyrie and a healthy KD are doing a press conference in Westchester today rather than one in Brooklyn last week.

    What are you talking about? I read from Durant himself that he was always going to sign with the Nets and that the Knicks were never in the mix. And if you can’t trust Kevin Durant’s full of shit retcons of his personal history, what can you trust?

  156. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    Mills is taking a lot of heat for his comments about purposely not pursuing max players. I don’t understand that.

    He drew attention to it when he shouldn’t have. Maybe he’s on some kind of “trust me” tour? It seemed clear what happened. Why spin a story? What he did was feed a woe-is-me mentality.

  157. Z-man

    I can’t help but feel optimistic today. I just get the sense that Randle, Morris, and Gibson mean business and are not thinking of themselves as cheerleaders for the young guys. I could see RJ, Knox, DSjr, and Iggy getting knocked on their ass by the vets, and being put in their place if they try any stupid shit. That’s all I can ask for, a team that is all business and that will let other teams know that they aren’t gonna roll over without a fight.

  158. Z-man

    I don’t care that much what Mills ands Perry say at this point. Fizdale too. We are what we are right now. Talk is cheap. Let’s see if they’re ready to play next Monday.

  159. Z-man

    So Dotson and Bullock are both out for preseason. Hopefully we won’t waste too much time looking at Kadeem or any of the other scrubs other than Wooten.

  160. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Dotson gets cut some time this season. He’s not good on top of being 25 years old, and we already have Trier, Ellington, Barrett, and Ntilikina looking for minutes at that spot.

  161. Hubert

    In my defense, his stats were not good. Ever. He wasn’t even recruited to play college. Gettelman admitted he fell in love with him based on one drive in an exhibition game. That just seemed like a terrible thought process to me. It’s basically the Kevin Knox 3-on-3 thing.

    His gut was right, though. Maybe it will work out for Kevin Knox, too.

  162. Hubert

    Anyone who saw the 2 QB’s on the field have a pretty good Idea who the better player is now and forever.

    Haskins is much more raw. He only played one season in college. I don’t think we can jump to that conclusion.

    It does seem fair to conclude that Jones will provide more value on his rookie deal, though. And that’s huge for roster construction.

  163. BigBlueAL

    Small news announced today by the Knicks: Dotson is out for the entire preseason, Bullock will be re-evaluated in November.

  164. dtrickey

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Dotson gets cut some time this season. He’s not good on top of being 25 years old, and we already have Trier, Ellington, Barrett, and Ntilikina looking for minutes at that spot.

    Given he is going to miss the pre-season I think this is a real possibility. Going to be coming from a long way back in the race for back court minutes.

  165. bobneptune

    Haskins is much more raw. He only played one season in college. I don’t think we can jump to that conclusion.

    I’d say he’s raw…. he’s raw because he wasn’t good enough to beat out JT Barrett at OSU. Barrett was such a terrific QB prospect he went undrafted in the NFL draft and has bounced around for 2 years among 3 NFL practice squads.

    He played with Urban Meyer’s best band of high school athletes money could buy and amassed wonderful advanced stats. Jones played with D+ athletes and amasses mediocre numbers.

    The only difference is Jones understands how to run an NFL offense and can actually play and Haskins is clueless.

    His own coach said he isn’t close to ready and he proved it beyond a doubt Sunday…..

  166. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    @190,

    Dotson isn’t a needle mover and probably has no chance of becoming one. He’s a 36.8% shooter from deep with a TS% of .526, and his defense is probably closer to average than okay. There’s no reason to give him minutes over younger guys or older and better guys to me.

  167. KnickfaninNJ

    I watched the press conference from here. Fortunately, the Knicks website isn’t blocked in China. I found it informative. I noted several things especially.

    -Knicks management does have a strategy and they are all on the same page about it. This may sound trite, but it doesn’t happen in many organizations. Management theory is that this is very important in making a strategy work.
    -Their strategy is different than that of many teams. Current conventional wisdom is that you need stars plus role players to win. You obviously can win with stars plus role players, but they are betting that a deep, flexible team of quality non star players who play hard can also be competitive and have an ok record. They also believe internal competition for playing time will make the team better and plan to distribute minutes on merit.
    – They clearly think they have upgraded the talent level of the team. I think the press and forecasters don’t give them credit for that. But the players they have are better than the cast offs Phil accumulated and should have a better record. I agree with them on this point. I’m very interested how it turns out in practice.
    -Perry defended against the all the power forwards criticism and I think he made a good case. It’s true, they only had Mitch under contract as a big. If you think of many of them as switchable between center and power forward, then having five or six guys in the two positions isn’t an overfill.
    -Fizdale talked about defense being a priority. When I see it I’ll believe it.

  168. 2FOR18, understands math

    Z-man
    September 30, 2019 at 4:01 pm
    I can’t help but feel optimistic today.

    lmao it never ends. you’re the Charlie Brown of Knicks fans.

  169. dtrickey

    What’s wrong with Dotson?

    He had shoulder surgery in the off-season. I believe it was to fix a torn labrum which they only expected to sideline him for a couple off months, but it looks like there has been complications given I think that it was only estimated to be a two month recovery from when he had it done in May.

  170. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    That’s really bad news for Dotson. Missing the preseason and not having an off-season because of the surgery is a real problem from him. The team is deep (deep in mediocrity but deep) and health is the critical. An injured player does not help the team win. He’ll be very behind others who used the off-season to get better. Knox looks ripped. DSJr worked his butt off. There are a lot of healthy, hungry players and the Knicks #1 pick RJ plays his position, coach loves him some Trier and veteran FA Wayne Ellington is on the team. Doston might find himself as #4 on the 3-deep SG depth chart.

  171. alsep73

    Also of interest — assuming you believe anything Fiz says, which is not a safe assumption — is the idea that there will be a three-way battle between DSJ, Payton, and Frank to see who starts at PG. I’m less interested in the idea of the competition itself than that it suggests they are still looking at Frank as a 1 (among other things). I still think a Frank/Barrett backcourt could be really interesting — if terrifying in terms of the whole “you shoot the ball from range and it goes into the basket” thing.

  172. Early Bird

    Sad thing is, even healthy, I probably have Dotson at the end of the depth chart. For awhile he looked like he could make the small jump to average, but he’s been stagnant the last few years. We have too many young wings that should get burn over him.

    I kept thinking he’d be a rotation player, too.

  173. Early Bird

    @alsep,

    I think that’s what a coach says about Frank no matter what. You don’t want to get the player down and you don’t want the other teams to know what you think of him.

    Although I don’t think Frank can play pg, I do think he adds the most value at that spot. He can shut down the point of attack and shoot over the any pg not named Ben Simmons or Giannis (if you think he’s a pg).

    The problem is having no penetration from the 1 spot is devastating. So, I gurss I agree with your RJ scenario. A lot of things have to break the right way tho.

  174. KnickfaninNJ

    I’m not sure it’s either pick up Ntilikina’s option or let him go. I think they might be able to not pick up the option but sign him to a longer contract instead. Of course, this being the Knicks how likely is it they actually extend a draft pick beyond his rookie contract?

  175. Donnie Walsh

    Of course, this being the Knicks how likely is it they actually extend a draft pick beyond his rookie contract?

    Of course, this being the Knicks, when they do finally extend a draft pick beyond his rookie contract, it will probably be for one of the worst basketball players in NBA history, so there’s that.

  176. Hubert

    Also of interest — assuming you believe anything Fiz says, which is not a safe assumption — is the idea that there will be a three-way battle between DSJ, Payton, and Frank to see who starts at PG.

    Sounds like the worst possible news for Frank, actually. He needs to play with one of those guys, not compete against them.

  177. Frank

    Sounds like the worst possible news for Frank, actually. He needs to play with one of those guys, not compete against them.

    The best guy for Frank to play with would be the idea of RJ Barrett – ie. a playmaking wing. If you play him with Payton or DSJ you’ll end up crossmatching a ton on defense with Frank presumably guarding the point of attack and hiding Payton or DSJ on the least threatening backcourt player. Payton is a good defender, I guess, but he’s still pretty small – 6’2.5″. You could have Payton guard the PG and put Frank on the most threatening wing, but IMHO if Frank is going to play, you want him on the ball (against the PG in most situations but in general on the primary ballhandler).

    I honestly think the best role for Frank for this season is to win the backup PG role – get 15 minutes there and another 5-6 minutes playing with one of the other PGs. But it’s all predicated on him not being one of the 5-10 worst offensive players in the league.

  178. alsep73

    He needs to play with one of those guys, not compete against them.

    I think he could play with Smith, in the same way that I think he and Barrett have some complementary skills. But I don’t think you can put out a lineup where he and Payton are on the court together. Neither one can shoot/score enough. But maybe I’m wrong.

  179. Frank

    re: Perry deflecting on Frank’s option — I’m not sure I would read too much into that. Short of the Noah expulsion, Perry seems to place a lot of emphasis on keeping options open and preparing for all eventualities. There’s really no reason for him to say they are definitely picking up his option, even if that’s the intention, if for no other reason to make Frank as hungry as possible this training camp.

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