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Thursday, July 18, 2019

New York Knicks 96 – Milwaukee Bucks 112 – Game Recap

See, we’re not asking for much. Most of the times, we’re not even asking for real competitiveness. We ask for rootability and hints of development from somebody. Even if that somebody is not a core component of our future, but we feel like he’s a kid of ours nonetheless. Well, tonight we got a tiny bit ot that, with Kornet starting in place of Kanter.

I’ll pull out a total jerk move and quote myself here: “When Luke Kornet plays instead of Kanter, you can see the team trying to play better. They fail, of course, because Luke sucks and they all suck, but it’s a breath of fresh air to see someone who’s clearly not interested in padding his boxscore.”

In the first quarter that was very evident. Apart from the improved spacing (and the diminished offensive rebounding) the team played better not having a big body who demands to be fed inside and who passes the ball just once in a while. Kornet is far from a good player, and let’s say he hits 2 fewer threes and you’re looking at a mediocre offensive game from him, but watching him play is so much better than seeing Kanter post empty double doubles while hindering whatever movement without the ball happens around the altruism-challenged THJ and Mudiay.

We got beat by Milwaukee, and that’s ok. They’re a good team and we’re terrible. The game was not competitive in the last 15 minutes. But I didn’t feel like I wasted my time watching this game. It’s not too much to ask, but sometimes it’s too much for this coaching staff/front office to give.

The good:

– Noah Vonleh (15 pts, 13 rebs, 2 ast, +2 +/-) showed his sulking teammate – let’s hope not for long – Kanter what a real, meaningful double double is. His rebounding number could have been a bit inflated by the fact that Kornet is a downright wet noodle on the boards, but Noah was there everytime. He wasn’t that good on offense, turning the ball over four times, but his defense tonight was awesome. He got tasked with guarding Antetokounmpo and made him sweat his routinely great performance. Giannis got close to a monster triple double (31/14/8) but through no fault of Vonleh, who might be one of the few players in the league able to keep pace with the Greek Freak on defense. He also added three blocks for good measure. I don’t think someone else will emerge from the fray to take away the Knicks MVP from Vonleh during the season. Now re-read the last sentence, remember Vonleh got into the roster as a non-guaranteed minimum salary player, and you’ll have your Knicks season in a nutshell.

– You’re damn right, I’ll put Luke Kornet (23 pts, 3 rebs, 5 ast, -8 +/-) in this section even if his game was nothing special. Yeah, he recorded 5 assists but most of them were lazy passes to semi-open guys who ended up hitting their shots. His 3 boards in 35 minutes are a freaking insult to the fact that he’s 7’1″. His defense was at best meh, even if just by raising his hands up he’s a 300% better rim protector than Kanter. But how can you not put him here on a night where he hit 7 treys and, as I said before, the team looked like it was playing better with him on the court? Some of his minutes were a gift from the officials, who weirdly ejected Kanter without him deserving it, but it was hard not to see the sheer difference in collective body language when Luke was on the floor compared to when Enes was playing. Bonus fun fact: Luke is now the tallest player ever in the NBA to hit at least 7 three pointers in a game.

The bad:

– Allonzo Trier (7 pts, 2 rebs, 4 ast, -14 +/-) and Damyean Dotson (4 pts, 4 rebs, 2 stl, -8 +/-) were a combined 3-for-19 from the field tonight. While Dotson missed mostly good shots – but still ends here because shotmaking is something that has to be asked from him – Trier was a total mess. Iso Zo tried, over and over again, to delve deep into the Bucks defense without a care for the long arms of Milwaukee’s defenders. Seriously, have you considered now long they are? Giannis, Middleton, Hill, Maker, and Wilson (a sneaky good player in Bud’s system) are all superlong and have no trouble at contesting shots. Trier just couldn’t learn the lesson and went on to get swatted ad libitum, and when he didn’t, he bricked some iso shots. Normally I like Trier, but tonight I started suspecting I like him because we also have THJ who’s much worse. When THJ is not around, I might find myself liking him less simply because he’s the other black hole I usually tolerate thanks to his younger age and driving mentatity. Don’t get fooled by Trier’s 4 assists, he didn’t try to run an offensive set even once.

Tank-sized bits:

– Kevin Knox (12 pts. 6 rebs, 1 stl, -19 +/-) posted the worst plus-minus of the game while shooting horribly (4-for-15) and getting destroyed on defense by Middleton and Giannis. It’s nice that his double digit scoring streak still stands (nine straight, ten in the last eleven, eleven in the last thirteen), as it is that he’s grabbing more boards. Sadly, it’s not enough to be a functional NBA player, but it’s enough to give us a faint hope about this year’s lottery pick.

– Speaking of lottery picks, Frank is quickly becoming a frustrating issue. Keep in mind that tonight I had nothing to complain about the rotation (it was hard to screw it to begin with, given THJ was out and Kanter got ejected), so I could focus better on how the single pieces were doing. That focus allowed me to get struck by a revelation: to put it simply, Frank plays like I used to play at the local gyms once my paint-roaming days were over. As you might know, I stopped growing at 13. I never learned to play any other position than PF/C. At 16, I suddenly found myself being a bulky wing without any handle. I stayed on the perimeter waiting for someone else to pass me the ball and shoot it with inconsistent results. Every dribble I took was a steal waiting to happen. I attacked the basket maybe twice every month. Everybody recognized that I was a smart, dedicated player, with a fire and desire for playing defense (and a knack for rebounding and posting skinnier guys: it’s the only thing that differentiates my style from Frank’s one) but I wasn’t really in demand, as I was pretty much a zero on offense for the aforementioned reasons and couldn’t dribble to save my life. Now, add to this walk in the memory garden the fact that Wally said “I like Frank playing PG”, and it’s pretty much a death sentence for his future in the NBA. But I still want to see more from him, we don’t have anything to lose playing him ahead of Burke and Thomas. His two offensive rebounds were a nice touch, too.

– I won’t say anything else about Kanter apart from the fact that I viciously hate his “slighted superstar” act. I’m tired of everything Enes. Just pull your head out of your ass and count your days in NY, dude.

– Is any player in the League more average (in a bad way) than Courtney Lee? Is there any other player who is that fixated on the fake from three/shoot from two routine? Is there still someone kidding him/herself thinking we can trade him without a sweetener? Bonus fun fact 2: Courtney was the only Knick to hit more than half his shots.

– When do we trade Mudiay? He’s not as horrible as we thought he was at the beginning ot the season, but he can’t be the answer to anything Knicks-related, and I don’t trust our front office with his impending free agent status. Someone be a friend and do us a favor taking him away, like you do with your pal who drinks too much everytime you go out for a boys night, so you start boxing him out from the bartender.

It feels good to be just a half game from the worst record in the NBA. Let’s keep on losing without THJ and Kanter in sight, and all will be well! See you on Saturday against the Jazz, trying to keep this losing streak alive.

 

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146 comments on “New York Knicks 96 – Milwaukee Bucks 112 – Game Recap

  1. bobneptune

    At least Kornet has a legit NBA skill…. between the d league and the NBA he has shot >380 3’s at a 42% clip… let the bloody man play… why the bleep is Kanter playing?

  2. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    I don’t wanna say Kanter is becoming a bad teammate…but he may have worn out his welcome with his behavior this season. This constant low key bitching about his role at his salary and when he’s not a part of the future makes it harder to see him on the roster. I like Kanter. I do. But for all his talk about “NYK FOREVA!(in my Wakandan accent)”, you’d think the guy would realize that we play better with him on the 2nd unit so that he doesn’t get exposed on D, AND he gets his numbers. He may even play better in that role by the numbers. To me, it says that he’s all about his personal numbers…Melo style. Talking money. That’s why he wants to start. Just pipe down and play ball! Then…his ejection felt “mailed in” in the moment. But, upon further review, he was upset about the bloodied eye and needed to get out of the game so he committed a foul. Giannis and Ham escalated it. So that’s much ado about nothing as far as Kanter is concerned. But it still was kinda bad taste..

    Trade him and Lance to Sacto for ZBo and Shump, then release ZBo or even both- I don’t care. They’re all essentially expiring deals.

  3. Farfa Post author

    Trade him and Lance to Sacto for ZBo and Shump, then release ZBo or even both- I don’t care. They’re all essentially expiring deals.

    I mean, couldn’t we do the same to Kanter and Lance without trading them? (Again, not advocating we do it now, but wouldn’t it be the same?)

  4. Frank

    Carrying this over from prev abandoned thread:
    Got to watch about 20 min of the game last night and honestly I found it pretty entertaining. Our guards played like ass but I freaking love the Noah Vonleh + Kristaps Porzingis Luke Kornet front court.

    You know, I was fully on the sign Durant bandwagon but it is painfully obvious that this team is not ready to do anything even with Durant. If it were up to me I would keep our powder dry this summer in terms of big free agents splashes. If we get the #1 pick naturally pick Zion, but I do really think that barring that unlikely event (even if we are the worst team in the league we would only have a 14% chance of the #1 pick!), I would go for Ja Morant. We’ve waxed poetic here about how we think RJ Barrett sucks, and other than Zion, which players are obviously better than Morant? Bol is interesting but not exactly a can’t-miss project, and what are we going to do, trade both KP and Robinson? I dunno, maybe Jarrett Culver. I would go penetrating PG – he is great with the ball in their hands and have good vision. If we are going to play a 5-out offense like we did last night, or even a 4-out with Mitch-Rob diving, having that guard who can stress the defense is so important.

    Beyond the draft pick, I would really like to bring Vonleh back, and I mean on a 3 or 4 year contract at MLE-type $. The dude is just a good player. I keep waiting for his shooting to fall off but we’re basically 1/2way through the year and he’s still shooting 39% from 3 — even if we believe he will regress, he’s now shooting about 33% for his career from 3, which still makes him a viable threat from outside that would need to be respected. His defense is great, he’s a vacuum on the boards, and he’s young/still improving — and a great fit next to Porzingis.

    Then re-up Porzingis hopefully not for a max, but a max if necessary. Then rent cap-space for 1 year, let Lee fall off the books, then see what we have.

  5. Early Bird

    The problem with not signing anyone this year is that it’s unclear when we’ll have cap space again. If KP signs for the max, it’ll be at least 3 year.

    Plus, Zion or Bol Bol, a KP return, and Durant could make a competitive team.

  6. ptmilo

    Trier may be the only player in NBA history who is a better defender when his guy is alone underneath the rim than when he is actually guarding him.

  7. djphan

    it seems like a good time to talk about the draft… heres my top 10 so far…

    1. zion – i think its close between him and barrett in a 70/30 kind of way… but zion is ahead for sure…
    2. barrett – def #s are borderline but not enough to worry about…
    3. kevin porter – hes hasnt played much but i think hes real and makes this a very solid top 3… if not then this draft falls off…
    4. gafford – i dunno why hes not getting lotto talk…
    5. morant – morant is part of a group of guards who were not great their freshmen year but blowing it up this year… morant probably best out of them…
    6. alexander-walker
    7. culver – i doubt the upside of these two are all that high and they will probably regress but they are putting up eyepopping numbers… if they keep it up they make this not a horrible draft…
    8. langford – low steals numbers are concerning but he should be a solid lotto pick in this draft…
    9. Bol – he could climb or fall off depending on the foot..
    10. ponds – hes gonna make someone at the end of the first really happy…

    all in all its a solid draft esp near the top and better than i expected… we should come away with someone useful… almost idiot proof since the top names line up with alot of mocks but with the knicks u just never kno…

  8. ptmilo

    i know of no greater insult in djphan’s arsenal than the no-ellipses treatment he just gave alexander-walker

  9. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    The problem with not signing anyone this year is that it’s unclear when we’ll have cap space again. If KP signs for the max, it’ll be at least 3 year.

    This is true, but if we rent our cap space out or take on short term contracts then we have expiring contracts we can possibly trade for a useful player. Getting a name free agent is a crapshoot anyway; it fails much more often than it succeeds. So I am resigned to the fact that we will have some of the players from this year, KP and a reasonable draft pick to go forward with in 2019-2020. That’s not so bad. We would have to be really unlucky (always possible with the Knicks, I concede) to have all these young players and have none of them improve. And already Vonleh and Robinson like like keepers.

  10. Frank

    I notice djphan doesn’t have Reddish even in the top 10…

    Kevin Porter does have a Mills/Perry look to him…

  11. Frank

    I guess the decision on Vonleh comes down in some way to how Robinson develops this year. If he looks like he’s sort of putting it together in terms of playing under control and getting the mental aspect of the game in addition to his crazy physical skills, then I guess bringing Vonleh back is less urgent. Hopefully he comes back soon.

    I love Robinson, but his presence probably pushes KP to the 4 where I think he is less than ideal on the defensive end. Vonleh really is the perfect fit next to KP — can defend the mobile 4’s on the perimeter, provides some rim protection, and can make up for KP’s rebounding deficiencies.

  12. Farfa Post author

    Well, it’s not like Robinson can’t play 24 mpg at the 5 with 30 mpg to both KP (24 at center) and Vonleh. You’d still have 12 mpg to allot to a token 4th big of choice (Kornet?).

  13. djphan

    yea im not a big fan of reddish… his steal numbers are phenomenal but hes weak in almost all other areas and i dont think thats gonna change.. at least this year…

  14. Frank

    Re: cap space in 2020 — knicksfilmschool seems to think we will have $36MM in cap space in 2020 even assuming no trade of THJ, a max for KP, and salary slots for #5 pick this summer and next.

    I mean, you could imagine reasonable trades to get financially strapped teams out of luxury tax territory or so they can sign FAs — like trading for Reggie Jackson (who sucks but honestly is better than any of our guards, and expires in summer of 2020), or Ian Mahinmi from the Wizards, or Marvin Williams, etc. while extracting draft picks from said teams.

  15. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    I don’t think it’s likely we sign a star player in free agency unless management overpays. We are just too bad and far away. Assuming we don’t, I’d use our cap space to bring back Vonleh long term and unless we find another quality two-way player like him to add, take on some short term contracts with young players hoping to find another Vonleh.

    I’m warming up to Kornet after not quite understanding the interest in him earlier. His 3 point shot is a weapon and he plays enough defense to consider him a keeper too. He needs to rebound better, but a small part of that is probably that he’s on the perimeter so much. I should have predicted his defense would be OK. I’m pretty sure he’s a Phil/Gaines guy and they were mostly looking for two-way players. My bad for not paying attention.

  16. mase

    How come no one talks about garland?

    Him and Morant are already better playmaking guards than we have on our roster, which isn’t saying a whole lot.

  17. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    Assuming Kanter is gone next year, that leaves KP, Robinson, Vonleh and maybe Kornet as bigs on the roster next year. That’s really not many, even if we draft another big.

  18. Frank

    honestly we should have offered Vonleh the BAE rather than Trier. My guess is he would’ve taken it?

    Man, I was ok with the Hezonja signing, but it sure would’ve been nice to have our MLE available.

  19. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    By the way, one of the fun parts of last nights game was the clip of Kornet’s Dad. I don’t know where they find the footage, but it’s nice they do.

  20. djphan

    garland is out for the rest of the season… on top of that i dont think hes really a pg.. which would make him a lil like sexton…

  21. Farfa Post author

    Man, I was ok with the Hezonja signing, but it sure would’ve been nice to have our MLE available.

    I was ok too (even if 1-year deals don’t exactly make that much sense), but what a boneheaded mistake that was.

  22. mase

    Vonleh is worth more than the mle it’s official. He defense on Giannis was our best performance of the season. And giannis still scored 30.

  23. ptmilo

    I get that people want to sign Vonleh assuming we don’t get a miracle HOFer. I like him, too. But to merely say you want to sign him is saying nothing at all. We can assume you’d be happy with Montrezl Harrell’s contract from the cap-squeezed summer of 18, but what about Derrick Favors deal from ’18 or Taj Gibson’s deal from ’17? I mean, you can say whatever you please it’s just that the conversation only gets interesting with a price tag attached. I bet there are people here who would pay $35/3 for Vonleh and those who wouldn’t, but none would object to “hey let’s keep this big who plays defense.”

    If the season ended today and we got no miracle Kawhi/Durant promise, I think I’d put my ceiling on Vonleh at maybe 2/$20 or 3/$27, or $3/35 if the third year was a team option.

  24. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    @24

    Implicit in everything I say is that the deal is at least fair.

  25. ptmilo

    i know you are not trolling here i just have to learn to accept that there is such a thing as a postmodern horse betting humanities major

  26. Hubert

    I was fully on the sign Durant bandwagon but it is painfully obvious that this team is not ready to do anything even with Durant.

    You’re right if we can’t dump Hardaway and Lee. And that’s looking increasingly impossible unless we can find a desperate sucker (although there is one in New Orleans) or we’re willing to trade this year’s pick if it isn’t Zion. Durant has to be one of two additions; he can’t be the only move, and we can’t talk ourselves into thinking Hardaway would be ok if he were the 4th option.

    But everything we’re currently watching would be meaningless if we managed to swap the 6,500 minutes that Mudiay, Hardaway, and Kanter are on pace to play with Kemba, Durant, and Porzingis.

  27. Farfa Post author

    I’m pretty sure he’s a Phil/Gaines guy and they were mostly looking for two-way players. My bad for not paying attention.

    Ah, the irony of the egotistical former POBO rolling the dice on high-character guys while the apparently coy actual POBO/GM combo go for chuckers and reclamation projects

  28. Farfa Post author

    if we can’t dump Hardaway and Lee

    I mean, if we attach sweeteners it can be done, but it has to be done only after securing Durant’s promise. And the worst thing is that our front office is certainly not trying to trade THJ. They view him as an integral piece.

  29. d-mar

    I think THCJ mentioned this in an earlier thread, but there was one play where Frank got into the middle of the paint, picked up his dribble, and had a look on his face like one of those horror movie victims who’s surrounded by zombies and knows they’re toast. And then he threw the ball directly to a Bucks player.

    It was truly one of the more depressing Frank moments among many this season.

  30. Hubert

    @29 I agree. Here is the unlikely but reasonable scenario for the eternal optimist Knicks fan:

    Durant pulls a LeBron in 2014 and quietly tells the knicks he wants to play for them but they need to add another piece like the cavs did when they traded wiggins.

    Mills and Perry explore trading the pick (as long as it’s not #1) either as part of a package that includes Hardaway for another stud player (e.g. Lillard if he demands a trade and the Blazers are hot for someone in this draft) or just to straight up dump contracts and create enough space to sign another max free agent.

    We sign Durant and complete the trade and put together a team who’s top 3 is Durant, Lillard/Kyrie/Kemba, and Porzingis. We use the room on Vonleh. We trade Frank for someone who can play now. We pick up some useful vets on min deals. And round out the rotation with Trier/Knox/Robinson.

    That’s the crazy-eyed optimist’s pie-in-the-sky scenario. And if we pulled it off, literally none of what we’re watching now matters.

  31. Frank

    I think THCJ mentioned this in an earlier thread, but there was one play where Frank got into the middle of the paint, picked up his dribble, and had a look on his face like one of those horror movie victims who’s surrounded by zombies and knows they’re toast. And then he threw the ball directly to a Bucks player.

    It was truly one of the more depressing Frank moments among many this season.

    to be fair I think his hand got hit when he tried to pass it out, but that look on his face was pretty depressing — like I am 5 feet from the basket and have no hope of doing anything good.

  32. Ingmarrrr

    i know of no greater insult in djphan’s arsenal than the no-ellipses treatment he just gave alexander-walker

    Are you Cavan or Silverman? This site cannot possibly have 3 comic geniuses. Even 2 was amazing.

  33. ClashFan

    I like Vonleh too and said a long time ago that the Knicks should try to get him on a team friendly deal, but that ship has now long sailed. How much to pay him (full midlevel type deal?) will depend on lots of factors, esp. if they get lucky and can draft Zion.

    Knox will eventually need to get a lot stronger and become a four as well. One one free throw, Middleton pushed him under the basket, nearly totally off the court, as Knox was trying to box him out.

  34. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    i know you are not trolling here i just have to learn to accept that there is such a thing as a postmodern horse betting humanities major

    I’m not sure what this means, but if you wanted me to define fair for Vonleh, I think it’s a silly question at this point.

    I was thrilled when they signed him so cheaply because I thought he filled an important need on defense/boards and was still young. He has more than met my expectations there and exceeded them even further on offense. But he hasn’t even played 40 games for us yet. Before I start quoting a “fair price”, I think I might be interested to see if he keeps shooting this well from the 3p line and can keep his overall scoring efficiency above what it was when he was younger. I like both versions, but this Vonleh is worth more than the one I thought we were getting. We’ll see if he can sustain it and then decide what he’s worth. Either way, I like him and want to keep him. The fair price is not knowable yet.

  35. Hubert

    And of course, here is the likely but unreasonable scenario for the jaded Knicks fan who knows what’s really going to happen:

    We use our cap space to overpay for Mudiay.

    Vonleh, having proven himself useful, leaves to play for a real team because he has valuable skills that contenders want.

    We draft RJ Barrett with the #2 pick to join Mudiay, Hardaway, Knox, and Trier as a quintet of deficient chukers with redundant skill sets cut from the Mills/Isiah mold of player.

    We max Porzingis for no good reason, expecting that if we pay him like a superstar he may actually become one.

    We suck for a very long time.

  36. DRed

    We should keep feeding Vonleh minutes and trade him. As for next year, I dunno. If Kornet can actually be an NBA player then we have 3 good bigs and a bunch of mediocre to bad wings and point guards.

  37. Farfa Post author

    We should keep feeding Vonleh minutes and trade him.

    If the Celtics want to give us Semi Ojeleye and a second round pick, I’m good.

  38. abk

    How come no one talks about garland?

    He’s out for the year and pretty undersized. Don’t think he should be a top-5 pick.

    We draft RJ Barrett with the #2 pick to join Mudiay, Hardaway, Knox, and Trier as a quintet of deficient chukers with redundant skill sets cut from the Mills/Isiah mold of player.

    Barrett is probably considerably better than our median draft outcome, which is the #4-6 pick. Stylistically he’s similar to our chuckers in a way, but I don’t think that should matter given how bad the team is. Go for the best player available. If Barrett can become an efficient lead initiator that’s worth a hell of a lot. And at #2 you should be all about ceiling, not floor.

  39. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    RJ Barrett’s shooting numbers this season aren’t terrible (unless you think over 50% from 2PT% and a .515 eFG are terrible) and he’s a great rebounder/passer for a wing. If you look at every great wing in the league currently who played NCAA ball, you won’t find a single player outside of Durant who had great efficiency numbers. He’s solidly the 2nd best prospect in this draft, but he does need to reign it in with the shot selection. If the Knicks draft him, I might be the only poster on this site estatic to have him.

  40. Hubert

    Stylistically he’s similar to our chuckers in a way, but I don’t think that should matter given how bad the team is. Go for the best player available.

    Oh, I agree completely. I would never advocate passing on Barrett if he were the BPA because we have bums like Mudiay and Hardaway on long term deals.

    I would just be disappointed if Barrett was the reward for this season. He strikes me as a Knox-ian prospect. I’m not down on Knox, and a Barrett-Knox combination at the 3 and 4 could hypothetically be great if they both realize their potential. But it’s a combo that is mostly reputation, athleticism, and upside vs actual production.

  41. thenoblefacehumper

    I’m pretty sure he’s a Phil/Gaines guy and they were mostly looking for two-way players. My bad for not paying attention.

    The Anti-Phil Fake News Deep State has manipulated me so badly that I have this memory of him making Carmelo Anthony the highest paid player in the NBA and giving him a full no trade clause.

    They’ve planted within me additional Fake Memories of him trading for Derrick Rose, signing Arron Afflalo, trading for Jose Calderon, and drafting Cleanthony Early, none of which could play a lick of defense, or offense for that matter.

    They’ve even gone so far as to brainwash me into thinking that Phil’s “two-way player” acquisitions actually did very little but show how inept he was as an evaluator, as Courtney Lee, Lance Thomas, Joakim Noah, and Frank Ntilikina were all either one-way players or zero-way players.

    Do these people have no shame?

  42. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    RJ Barrett’s shooting numbers this season aren’t terrible (unless you think over 50% from 2PT% and a .515 eFG are terrible)

    First you say that Ntilikina, perhaps the worst shooter outside of Michael Carter-Williams in the NBA in the last five years, is the best shooter among the Knicks PGs, and now this? This is troubling.

    Barrett ranks #624 of 1109 qualifying players (300+ minutes) in eFG%.

    Calling him solidly the 2nd-best prospect is a total farce. He’s not.

  43. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Also I’m not sure who made the American Beauty bag/Jamal Crawford’s career joke last night but it was among the best things I’ve read on this site.

  44. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    I mean, couldn’t we do the same to Kanter and Lance without trading them? (Again, not advocating we do it now, but wouldn’t it be the same?

    True. My preference in that move would be to keep Shump for this season as a wing replacement for Lance and let Hezonja play primarily smallball 4. Or..maybe find a team that could use Kanter and take back an additional year of salary if it comes with another asset

  45. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Also, if you control for FGAs, he ranks 117th of 192 players who have taken over 150 shot attempts. Pare it down to the true volume shooters at >200 FGA and you still have him a middling player: 12th of 23.

  46. Farfa Post author

    Also I’m not sure who made the American Beauty bag/Jamal Crawford’s career joke last night but it was among the best things I’ve read on this site.

    It was ptmilo, who’s in his 91-93 MJ phase since mid-December.

  47. thenoblefacehumper

    Barrett is a difficult case. The Wiggins comparison is unfair, NCAA TRB/AST per 40 are 8.7/4.9 for Barrett vs 7.1/1.9 (jesus how did anyone think this guy wouldn’t suck) for Wiggins. Also, 2PT% is 53% vs 49%. I feel pretty good about him being better than Wiggins.

    However, I do not want him on the Knicks. I don’t know many examples of players fixing a chucker’s mentality. The defensive numbers are concerning, as is the FT%. Maybe he’ll rapidly improve in those areas, but for the love of god let another team hope so. Additionally, do not let Cam Reddish anywhere near this team.

    I’m surprised djphan, who is very smart despite his writing style that I hope he never changes, has Bol lower than 3 or so. The only question for me is health with him. Otherwise I’ll take a guy averaging 28-13-3.6 per 40 who hits 75% of his free throws and figure out my roster crunch later.

    I don’t know exactly what to make of Morant’s meteoric freshman-to-sophomore rise but it’s worth nothing there were still a lot of positive signs from him as a freshman. 2PT% was fine, TRB/AST per 40 were both around 7.5, and his FT% was still good. In fact, the only things that really changed were scoring volume and his steal numbers. I’d be delighted to have him and it’s worth noting he’s around freshman age anyway.

    After Zion/Bol/Morant I continue to not be able to get excited about anyone. Culver seems to have a well-rounded game but the defensive numbers are mediocre. He still might be 4th on my board. Then you have Clarke and Gafford who seem good but would be brutal roster fits on the Knicks. I guess what I’m saying is tank on!

  48. Farfa Post author

    After reading a hagiographic piece about Cam Reddish on The Ringer, I think we can safely say that the 2019 draft is looking more shallow by the minute.

    When a bland site like The Ringer starts throwing out pieces to defend failing heralded prospects in December, drafting outside of the top 3 looks really bad.

  49. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Also, the floor/ceiling shit is going to send me into my very own humanities-major postmodern crisis-of-signification tailspin, as “high-ceiling” implies, to me, that the player is kinda shit as-is, but hey, remember the preseason when Barrett was the consensus #1 pick? That’s still real if you believe in it. After he’s done missing shots in the NCAA I’m sure he’ll get to the NBA and work real hard on his game and have an offense tailor-made to his strengths and become the flamethrowing Kawhi clone we all expect him to be, given how many scouts said he was good way back when.

    He’s got bust written all over him.

  50. djphan

    rjs efficiency numbers are dragged down by his 3pt shooting… and 3pt shooting in college is largely irrelevant… do you really want korver like efficiency and shot volume/distribution from your top pick?

    whats more important is what you do inside the 3p line… and hes shooting .530 on a massive 14 att p40.. to put it in perspective durant put up .505 on 12..

    rj is good… this is similar to all the hate tatum got as there is a large bias against chuckers on this board… and that is fine… but theres a clear difference between being rj barrett and tatum and what inferior players do.. and its important to make that distinction or else you pass up on real talent….

  51. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I would be ecstatic to draft Barrett at #2 and then trade him for a falling Bol or Morant at #4 or #5. The Mavs proved that you can get a big asset by swapping a couple of lottery slots, and end up with the better player anyway. They should look to exploit teams who are drafting for “fit” rather than BPA in the high lottery, which is a hilariously dumb thing to do.

  52. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    And Tatum is regressing like a motherfucker. I’d rather have him than literally any player active on the Knicks (as I would with any starter playing 31 MPG on an elite defense), but let’s not act like he’s on track to pull a Kevin Durant in year 3.

  53. djphan

    i have bol rated lowish because of the injury… foot injuries for guys abnormally tall are just bad news… and i would rather steer clear of guys like that when drafting…

  54. Hubert

    Following up on calling Barrett Knox-ian with some numbers…

    He’s basically a higher USG version of Knox who isn’t as good at scoring but has superior playmaking skills. And it’s debatable if he really earned those assist numbers or if Zion Williamson is inflating them by being able to fly. Both of them seem to be benefiting from their pedigree more than their production.

    Barrett v Knox

    USG: 34.5 v 24.6

    eFG%: .515 v .510
    TS%: .530 v .556
    FTr: .296 v .373
    3P%: .319 v .341
    TRB%: 10.8 v 9.3
    Stl/40: 1.4 v 1.5
    Blk/40: 0.6 v 0.3
    TOV/40: 3.4 v 2.8

    Ast/40: 4.9 v 1.8
    AST%: 22.5 v 8.7

    I wouldn’t hate Knox and Barrett as developmental prospects, but man… Barrett, Knox, and Frank would be a pretty terrible return for a three year stretch of drafting 2nd, 9th, and 8th. And they’re going to require a ton of patience.

  55. thenoblefacehumper

    To clarify something from earlier, if the Knicks strikeout on everyone this offseason, give KP his max extension, re-sign Vonleh to 3/24 with the third year being a team option (that’s about as far as I’d go for him), give both Trier and Dotson deals in the 2/18 range (maybe at this point they’ll warrant more, maybe they’ll warrant less, who the hell knows), then they’ll have 10+ year max space in the summer of 2022. They might have to do a few things here and there if their draft pick cap holds are high but I’m fairly certain they could make it work without much pain.

  56. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    Tatum is an interesting case.

    What’s the best way to evaluate a player that far exceeds expectations as a shooter in his first year?

    1. It was probably partly an upside aberration. So you should expect some regression in year 2 and then resumed improvement from the actual base?

    2. He’s much improved and will continue at the same level or better from here?

    3. Defenses game him space initially, but as he proved his shooting was sustainable if left open, defenses started adjusting and closing out better. So his FG% is dropped. He should continue improving from here?

  57. Frank

    @56 did you say you want to give Trier and Dotson 2 years for 18MM each?
    They probably wouldn’t even get the taxpayer MLE (AAV) in UFA, and both of them will be restricted FAs (Trier this summer if the Knicks decline his option), and Dotson either this summer (if they don’t guarantee him) or next summer (if they do).

    I like the Vonleh 3/24.
    I’d kick the can down the road on both Trier and Dotson (they’ll both be restricted and with low cap holds in summer of 2020). Let Mudiay, Burke, Hezonja, Kanter all go.

    Try to see if Detroit might do something like Reggie Jackson for a top-5 protected 2020 first this summer.

  58. Hubert

    When a bland site like The Ringer starts throwing out pieces to defend failing heralded prospects in December, drafting outside of the top 3 looks really bad.

    And that’s why I’m behind trading it to dump salary (or for Jowles strategy in @52). Under normal circumstances I would never advocate using a #4 pick to dump bad contracts, but if the draft is such that you’re looking at a poor prospect at 4, arbitrage the difference between the perceived value of the pick and the value of the actual player you’re going to get.

  59. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    They should look to exploit teams who are drafting for “fit” rather than BPA in the high lottery, which is a hilariously dumb thing to do.

    I find it hilarious that anyone thinks they can evaluate BPA with enough accuracy to be certain they can separate players that in most cases are similar statistically but played against different teams, against different levels of competition, and at different ages.

    When it’s clear everyone knows and no one drafts for need.

    When it’s less clear, it’s debated and sometimes fit is the tiebreaker.

    After the fact, everyone is genius or is using the same model to evaluate a player’s pro stats as they were using to evaluate their college stats so they get the same conclusion and think they were right all along.

  60. Grocer

    to be fair I think his hand got hit when he tried to pass it out, but that look on his face was pretty depressing

    He also got stripped and recovered the ball while triple teamed and none of his teammates moved to give him an outlet. His despair though. Looked like he’d just found out that it was no coincidence that his wife shared a name with his absent mother.

  61. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    3. Defenses game him space initially, but as he proved his shooting was sustainable if left open, defenses started adjusting and closing out better. So his FG% is dropped. He should continue improving from here?

    I understand that this is logical, but it’s implausible.

    His 3P% and 3PA last year, by month:

    .500 20
    .480 50
    .450 51
    .341 41
    .391 23
    .442 43
    .429 14

    I don’t really see him being “solved” in those numbers, especially with the bounce-back in the final two months, when teams most certainly knew he was a threat from the corner. He got his shots anyway.

    Also, his corner 3 rate dropped from 22.7% to 18.5% this year, and he’s all but forgotten how to shoot those (56.4% to 37.9%).

    I’d be much more inclined to say that he’s regressing.

  62. DRed

    RJ is not much of a free throw shooter so far, which is not good.

    It’s possible Tatum has actually improved a bit this year. Last year he just shot the lights out of the ball. His current level of producting is still wildly overrated, but like jowles says I’d rather have him than anyone on the Knicks except maybe Mitchell.

  63. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    There’s isn’t a snowballs chance in hell I would trade a top pick to move salary from this team unless I had an ironclad agreement from a star player that he was coming to NY if we had the space. This team is so far away from being any good, all of our bad contracts are basically irrelevant (other than Hardaway annoying the crap out of me). They would be relevant if we were actually trying to win. But once we chose to go down the path of a double dip rebuild, they became irrelevant unless you can put a star in that space now.

  64. Hubert

    DRed is right about trading Vonleh. There will likely be a lot of playoff teams willing to give him their full MLE that he’d prefer to play for, and I wouldn’t want to outbid them because I don’t think he’s worth it.

    I like him. It would have been grand to have signed him to a multiyear deal so we could have benefited from his development. But hey, we needed Mario Hezonja on a one year deal, you know?

    So get something for him now. I suspect he’s worth a lot more than O’Quinn was. Ainge might even be willing to part with the Celtics’ own 1st rounder for him. Or maybe Brooklyn would give us our own 2nd rounder back.

  65. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    I’d be much more inclined to say that he’s regressing.

    Your data from last year suggests it wasn’t defenses adjusting OR they adjusted and then he adjusted back and improved.

    I don’t believe much in a young player’s shot regressing unless there’s a physical issue involved (injury). If there are no other explanations as far as defense goes, I think it’s more likely he shot over his head last year, is shooting below his capability this year, or some combination of both. It’s probably just a lot of noise.

  66. Hubert

    There’s isn’t a snowballs chance in hell I would trade a top pick to move salary from this team unless I had an ironclad agreement from a star player that he was coming to NY if we had the space

    Jeez, man, I assumed that part was obvious.

  67. Frank

    DRed is right about trading Vonleh. There will likely be a lot of playoff teams willing to give him their full MLE that he’d prefer to play for, and I wouldn’t want to outbid them because I don’t think he’s worth it.

    I like him. It would have been grand to have signed him to a multiyear deal so we could have benefited from his development. But hey, we needed Mario Hezonja on a one year deal, you know?

    So get something for him now. I suspect he’s worth a lot more than O’Quinn was. Ainge might even be willing to part with the Celtics’ own 1st rounder for him.

    They should definitely trade him at the trade deadline if there are serious offers, like either to take salary or early 2nd’s or late 1sts.

    All things being equal, I’m not so sure that he wouldn’t want to come back in free agency. For all the warts of the team and the front office, he DID reportedly choose the Knicks over other offers (presumably playing time-related), he DID rehabilitate his career here with Fizdale, and he WILL get a ton of PT if he comes back. if the money is close I’m not sure that he wouldn’t choose the Knicks.

  68. ptmilo

    the sixers are a team who would immediately benefit, notably I think, from both Vonleh and Lee. Amir Johnson is moving around like he’s calcified and they could really use a big who can help on D with or without Embiid. meanwhile Shamet and Kormaz are not currently NBA passable defenders and whatever we think of Courtney’s overrated D he is at least that plus brings all the shooting. I’m not sure a deal would work bc I don’t think they could stomach giving up Fultz for such a motley package (no Bird rights for Vonleh) or sans that would be willing to give up most of their $21m cap space for Lee assuming we could cobble together a non Fultz deal that worked under the cap.

  69. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Your data from last year suggests it wasn’t defenses adjusting OR they adjusted and then he adjusted back and improved.

    “They made adjustments” as an explanation for basketball outcomes is sort of vague reification, i.e. you’re treating an idea (that players can adjust to a trend) as a knowledge-positive event. Other people might refer to it as flim-flam malarkey hokum. It’s the kind of thing that Wally would say — you can assert it as fact with no evidence and people will be like, “Oh yeah, that could’ve happened.”

  70. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Or maybe a modal fallacy:

    A: Players may shoot poorly because teams have adjusted to their play-style.
    B: Tatum is shooting relatively poorly.
    C: Thus, teams have adjusted to Tatum’s play-style.

  71. Hubert

    It could be narrative (and I don’t care enough about the Celtics to check if it’s true) but everything I’ve read indicates that Tatum has changed his shot selection significantly this year.

  72. MSA

    The Mavs proved that you can get a big asset by swapping a couple of lottery slots, and end up with the better player anyway.

    The Mavs actually gave a 1st rounder plus the swap.

    Unless we’re talking about swapping for Zion, hell no for this.

  73. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    Howled, if you do any math with Poisson distributions, it becomes clear the month to month change in 3 point shooting percentage is just noise.

  74. Z-man

    Just watched a replay of the end of the Nets-Hornets 2OT game. The Nets are a really fun team to watch. Dinwiddie reminds me a bit of Derek Harper…not a pure pG but a hard-nosed and edgy two-way player. Joe Harris is interesting too.

  75. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    I don’t know if Tatum/Brown et al are regressing or if Brad Stevens is being figured out. Last year’s Celtic team didn’t look much better than a 48 win team, and they surpassed that due to unprecedented production out of Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown considering who they were in college. Instead of taking a step forward, they look more like the team I thought they were; a collection of overrated players (minus Irving and Horford) playing over their heads. Tatum is still likely to be a very good player, but I think the Brad Stevens juju only works for scrappy players.

  76. Hubert

    I’ve definitely been experiencing Nets envy lately. They make so much sense. That’s all I really want from my basketball team.

  77. Farfa Post author

    And the Nets are just average! They have an average GM and a slightly above-average coach (and a jumbled roster where they have four NBA players – Dinwiddie, Allen, Hollis-Jefferson, Harris – plus two nice prospects in Kurucs and LeVert and spare parts who might make or not make any sense)

    But then again, the NBA paradox is that average management is actually good management, so maybe they’re onto something.

  78. Hubert

    They’re an average team, but I think it’s taken above average work from the GM and coach to make it that way given what they’ve been working with.

  79. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    “They made adjustments” as an explanation for basketball outcomes is sort of vague reification,

    I’m not sure what other people mean by adjustments, but this is what I meant.

    The smartest teams accumulate data on how each player shoots from different spots on the court, whether he likes going left or right, can shoot fading away, off the dribble, stepping into a shot, only in a catch and shoot etc.. The idea being to keep him away from his sweet spots and force him into what he doesn’t do as well. As a team learns more about a player, the defenses can adjust.

    At the same time, players realize what they are good and bad at and see how teams are trying to take the good stuff away. So they work on new moves, improving their shot from different locations, and so on.

    It a battle of improvements and adjustments that we will not be aware of because we don’t have the game plans and we don’t know what the players are working on in practice. We just know the data exists, teams use it, and good players are always trying to add to their games.

  80. Brian Cronin

    Unless we’re talking about swapping for Zion, hell no for this.

    That basically was the case for Luka, though, ya know? He’s not as sure of a thing as Zion, but he’s close.

  81. Brian Cronin

    They’re an average team, but I think it’s taken above average work from the GM and coach to make it that way given what they’ve been working with.

    I think Atkinson is a better than average coach, but I think Marks has only been decent. It’s just that, as Farfa alluded to earlier, a decent GM can do so well in the NBA since so many of them suck.

  82. Grocer

    Apparently Kanter was in the locker room getting treated (3 stitches) and nobody told him he got ejected. Found out after the game when a reporter asked him about it.

  83. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The Mavs actually gave a 1st rounder plus the swap.

    Wow, I actually had the correct thing written at first, but changed it for no reason other than stupidity and maybe a lack of peak caffeine. Espresso has brought me back, and made me ready to not say dumb things.

    Howled, if you do any math with Poisson distributions, it becomes clear the month to month change in 3 point shooting percentage is just noise.

    keep talking dirty to me

  84. ptmilo

    I think you guys and Bondy are wrong and Marks has been and will be solidly above average. He made two mistakes so far. One was the D’Lo deal where he seemed to give up too much given he was taking Mozgov back. But that would be a far smaller deal if Kuzma hadn’t popped with the 27th pick. The other was the Crabbe deal which I won’t defend.

    But his good stuff has so overwhelmed that. He had close to no assets and picks. He got Levert and 2nd for Young. He got Joe Harris and Dinwiddie (Z-man if you watch him more you will never called him Derek Harper again, he is more of Linsanity type one way player who is more often than not a mess on D in my eyes) two youngish productive players, for free.

    He turned Bojan into Jarret Allen. He took Carroll into cap space and netted both Kurucs and the 1st they used on Musa. He has our rather enticing 2nd this year bc he signed and then traded Trevor Booker. He has Denver’s first this year for taking Faried into cap space. He has two PHX 2nds for taking Jared Dudley, who is not even totally washed and I predict helps they make the playoffs. And he hired an excellent coach.

    Not many people turn a terrible team with close to zero assets and zero draft picks into that. I am curious to see if he manages to fleece someone like Phx for D’Lo before it’s all said an done.

  85. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    It a battle of improvements and adjustments that we will not be aware of because we don’t have the game plans and we don’t know what the players are working on in practice. We just know the data exists, teams use it, and good players are always trying to add to their games.

    Okay, this is better, and I agree. The variables at play also include:

    -whether teams produce concentrated film study in a way that is consumable by their players
    -whether players are able or willing to synthesize the information via video (iPads on the road, etc.)
    -take the mental changes (i.e. knowledge) to make minute changes in their deeply-embedded habits enough to diminish the offensive player’s production by the 3-5% that can swing a game to one’s favor (i.e. execution)

    This doesn’t even account for the offensive side of the ball, where players are generally going to do the very same thing (identify, exploit weaknesses). And on top of that, how many bad shooting or guarding performances can be attributed to temporaneous conditions that cannot be quantified, like a bad flight, a late night out, inexplicable insomnia (as a salesperson who sometimes travels for work and begins his workday quite early, I can tell you that travelling will fuck with a man’s sense of routine and normalcy, even if he is well-versed in the art of indica tincture self-dosing).

    My point is that there are so many variables that it’s hard to point to one condition and say, “This is the reason.”

  86. Brian Cronin

    I think you guys and Bondy are wrong and Marks has been and will be solidly above average. He made two mistakes so far. One was the D’Lo deal where he seemed to give up too much given he was taking Mozgov back. But that would be a far smaller deal if Kuzma hadn’t popped with the 27th pick. The other was the Crabbe deal which I won’t defend.

    But his good stuff has so overwhelmed that. He had close to no assets and picks. He got Levert and 2nd for Young. He got Joe Harris and Dinwiddie (Z-man if you watch him more you will never called him Derek Harper again, he is more of Linsanity type one way player who is more often than not a mess on D in my eyes) two youngish productive players, for free.

    He turned Bojan into Jarret Allen. He took Carroll into cap space and netted both Kurucs and the 1st they used on Musa. He has our rather enticing 2nd this year bc he signed and then traded Trevor Booker. He has Denver’s first this year for taking Faried into cap space. He has two PHX 2nds for taking Jared Dudley, who is not even totally washed and I predict helps they make the playoffs. And he hired an excellent coach.

    Not many people turn a terrible team with close to zero assets and zero draft picks into that. I am curious to see if he manages to fleece someone like Phx for D’Lo before it’s all said an done.

    I liked all of those moves that you cited as good moves, but I just think that he just took a basic, logical approach to rebuilding. I don’t think he did anything too fancy, it’s just that if you’re willing to rent out your cap room, dumb teams will always be tripping over themselves to give you assets.

  87. Hubert

    Wow, I actually had the correct thing written at first, but changed it for no reason other than stupidity and maybe a lack of peak caffeine. Espresso has brought me back, and made me ready to not say dumb things.

    That one was so unlike you that I assumed you must have been talking about the Traylor-Nowitzki swap of 1998.

  88. ptmilo

    okay but the average GM doesn’t execute those mundane, logical things nearly as well. They sign Brandon Jennings and Kuzminskas instead of Joe Harris and Dinwiddie. They maybe figure out they should trade Young, but make one call too few and sit on Bojan and Booker.

    I mean, most elite GM’ing that is something more than just prosaic rationality is probably highly luck-infected anyway. You find someone willing to trade James Harden without the owner backing out last minute, or you draft Giannis. If you gave me the Nets assets in 2016 (roughly none) and tell me that in 2018 they have a decent young team with surplus picks and literally only one bad year of contract (Crabbe in 19-20), you would say that is a best case scenario even for a West or Morey or Pop or anyone that doesn’t involved lightning bolt Jokic type luck.

  89. Hubert

    I just think that he just took a basic, logical approach to rebuilding. I don’t think he did anything too fancy, it’s just that if you’re willing to rent out your cap room, dumb teams will always be tripping over themselves to give you assets.

    Doesn’t that put you in the upper echelon of NBA management, though? Ainge, Masai, Morey, et al. are head and shoulders above the crowd. Marks is a head above the crowd. Perry seems to be in the crowd, which is nice, because normally we’re being trampled by the crowd.

  90. Brian Cronin

    okay but the average GM doesn’t execute those mundane, logical things nearly as well. They sign Brandon Jennings and Kuzminskas instead of Joe Harris and Dinwiddie. They maybe figure out they should trade Young, but make one call too few and sit on Bojan and Booker.

    I mean, most elite GM’ing that is something more than just prosaic rationality is probably highly luck-infected anyway. You find someone willing to trade James Harden without the owner backing out last minute, or you draft Giannis. If you gave me the Nets assets in 2016 (roughly none) and tell me that in 2018 they have a decent young team with surplus picks and literally only one bad year of contract (Crabbe in 19-20), you would say that is a best case scenario even for a West or Morey or Pop or anyone that doesn’t involved lightning bolt Jokic type luck.

    Okay, fair enough, if I graded Marks on the curve, he would definitely be in the top half of NBA GMs.

  91. Jack Bauer

    I must be missing something – why would we want the Knicks to draft Bol when the roster already includes KP, Mitchrob, and most likely Vonleh? Add to that they have no one remotely competent at the 3 and have been waiting on a good point guard for at least this entire century and I would not be on board with that unless he is going to be flipped for someone else at a more needed position.

  92. JK47

    If Bol Bol was BPA when the Knicks draft, I’d think hard about taking him and looking to deal Porzingis. To me Porzingis’ perceived value is higher than his actual value, and those are the guys you should be looking to trade.

    Bol Bol does have foot injury problems though, so (insert shrug emoticon here)

  93. Brian Cronin

    Bol Bol is a trade down option with his foot issues

    They could trade down to pick him and then trade KP and extend the rebuild.

  94. thenoblefacehumper

    What’s funny about the McCaw situation is the Warriors probably want him more now than they did during the offseason. He’s not very good, but based on his rookie season he might be able to give you league average play (and if he doesn’t, well, the financial commitment is negligible).

    You wouldn’t know it from looking at their roster but the 2018-2019 Warriors have pretty much been two top 5 players and scrubs. I expect Draymond and Klay to pick things up at some point but who really knows?

    It sucks that they don’t really have any tradable contracts because otherwise they might even be a logical Courtney Lee (maybe even THJ) destination.

  95. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Why do you all think Pat McCaw really, really didn’t want to re-sign with the Warriors?

    Not sure if this is a rhetorical question, as your post informed me that there was headway on his contract dispute, but it sounds like the QO was $1.7M and he just got $6M non-guaranteed on a team that he should play 25-30 MPG on.

    Also it sounds like he has some weird hyper-controlling family shit going on, like Fultz and Kawhi. Hope he’s watching his bank account closely.

  96. kevin5318

    I would support a KP trade but they’ll never do it. Last guy got fired for even seriously taking calls for him.

  97. abk

    I kind of love the idea of trading down to pick up another 1st and getting Bol anyway. Then potentially trading KP if you had a great offer. If not, ride with the current team for now and worry about it later. As an owner, I totally support it.

    As a GM though you kinda need to know you have a super long leash right? The team is not efficiently constructed to win with three centers, and trading away KP is definitely kicking the can down the road. I can see how most GM’s would shy away from that strategy, even if it’s the best thing for the team long-term.

  98. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Last guy got fired for even seriously taking calls for him.

    Was that before or after his knee esploded, though?

  99. thenoblefacehumper

    If we could get an asset via trade down, get Bol, AND get significant assets for KP I’d think I was dreaming.

    Admittedly it would hurt to extend the Charlie Ward streak but KP’s torn ACL has to be at least as much of a concern as Bol’s foot situation. I see virtually no way Bol isn’t more productive than KP if he’s healthy.

    Also, we are simply nowhere near the point where it would be a good idea to give a player like KP his max. We absolutely should be kicking the can down the road even if it makes Stratomatic apoplectic as he nostalgically watches highlights from the Knicks tenures of Arron Afflalo and the Derricks.

  100. swiftandabundant

    True but the last guy was taking calls about trading KP because he felt slighted that KP didn’t do an exit interview and it was the last straw in a long list of embarrassing shit he had done. This was also when KP still had 2 years left on his rookie contract and before his knee surgery. It was also before the Knicks had added a plethora of young, cost controlled players who have potential (Frank, Dotson, Mitchell, Knox and Trier).

    So I don’t think just because Phil got fired it necessarily means Perry or Mills would get fired if they proposed trading KP. I doubt they would do it and there would be blowback from the fans for sure, but I think Perry and Mills could make a very rational case for why trading KP would be good for the franchise long term. That’s very different than trading KP from an emotional, angry place.

  101. Brian Cronin

    Not sure if this is a rhetorical question, as your post informed me that there was headway on his contract dispute, but it sounds like the QO was $1.7M and he just got $6M non-guaranteed on a team that he should play 25-30 MPG on.

    The Warriors offered him 2 years/$5.2 million, with the first year guaranteed. So the money really isn’t a factor here (since the 2 years/$6 million would be pro-rated, so he’ll end up with less than $5.2 million under this deal). He just seems to not want to play for the Warriors for some reason. It could be the playing time issue.

  102. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The Warriors offered him 2 years/$5.2 million, with the first year guaranteed. So the money really isn’t a factor here. He just seems to not want to play for the Warriors for some reason.

    I’m sure there’s squabbling about role, and it’s easy to be a malcontent when you have literally zero power over how much time you spend on the floor.

    There are many examples of bad players being given big contracts because they were lucky enough to be the best player at a given position on a shitty team. I would cite Jordan Bell as a guy who would probably be about to start a 4-year, $32M contract extension if he had landed on the Bulls instead of the Warriors. Scrubs like Fournier and LaVine, with their ridiculous contracts, are evidence that it’s probably better for young “upside” guys to be on perennially-shitty teams playing big minutes than “stuck” at the back of a rotation for a good team.

    Also McCaw isn’t any good aside from being a tall, long off-guard, so he is probably looking for a better chance to score pointzz.

  103. mokers

    I think we have to take a hard look at moving Porzingis. If timmy was coming off the books in 2020, I think you could roll with Porzingis because your cap flexibility is much better. KP is going to to get 5/160 from us and I don’t think his health and production justify that deal. Let’s rent out space to people taking a run at Kemba Walker or DeMarcus Cousins or Giannis or Anthony Davis. Maybe use another team’s assets to sweeten a THJ deal. It won’t happen and of course I’ll continue to buy league pass even when they are 43 win 7th seeds.

  104. thenoblefacehumper

    I should clarify that if we’re trading Porzingis I do believe we should hold out for a massive haul, and given the sensitive nature of the situation, it should be an “if anything leaks talks are over and we’re denying everything” kind of thing.

    I don’t think BRef allows for play index queries involving shooting data but I imagine there aren’t many players who shoot 63% at the rim, 36% from 3, and block 2+ shots per game (these are his career numbers, all of which he has topped in individual seasons).

    I truly believe in his potential and there are examples of players altering their shot distribution and becoming more productive. It’s just obviously a risk, and given the financial commitment it’s an enormous one for us.

    In a Porzingis trade I’m asking for three legitimately good assets to begin with and then seeing where the bidding goes. Any combination of three unprotected first rounders and young cost-controlled (good) players would make me think.

  105. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    The reasons the Knicks considered moving KP were described in detail by Phil and his crony in the media at the time. One reason was the question of whether he was happy in NY and would stay when his contract was up (given the exit meeting incident) and the other was injury risk.

    The injury risk, turned out to be prescient.

    Come to think of it, when he twisted his ankle one time we got into a long debate here where I suggested his lack of strength was making him more injury prone. I suggested that when he made contact he didn’t take the hits well and it had the potential to cause problems in joints and elsewhere. Most people disagreed because the ankle injury was “clearly an accident”.

    All that said, the greater injury risk was and still is there. Phil was correct to consider a deal for him, but only if he got the motherload of an offer. He didn’t get the offer he wanted. So we moved on.

    Right now I pretty much still think the same things.

    The injury risk is still there, but evaluating him off boxscore models is laughably wrong. Those models don’t include the fact that he’s clearly a plus defender and that his efficiency could easily spike with minor adjustments to his game. He’s a 40% 3p shooter, 80% FT shooter, and long and athletic enough to to score well around the basket off lobs and OREBs.

    This is different than Melo. It was always going to be tough for Melo to improve his efficiency unless he suddenly got much better at 3s and was willing to reduce his mid range game.

    KP has the skillset to very efficient already. It would help if he got stronger (he will) so he could finish better and he has to reduce his mid range game a bit. But the 3p shooting and FT% is already there.

    I would not trade him unless we got the motherload.

  106. rama, mayor of Realitytown

    It was ptmilo, who’s in his 91-93 MJ phase since mid-December.

    +1

    Last few weeks his TS is positively Chandleresque.

  107. rama, mayor of Realitytown

    . Perry seems to be in the crowd, which is nice, because normally we’re being trampled by the crowd.

    This is the post that made me laugh today, though.

  108. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    “Rosen lists the reasons under sections headed, “Reasons he shouldn’t be traded” and “Reasons he should be traded.”

    “Just as Phil Jackson feared right after Porzingis was drafted, players that tall and that lanky are extremely susceptible to injuries. Indeed, he has missed 26 games in his first two seasons, the most potentially serious being an Achilles tendon strain last season.”

  109. rama, mayor of Realitytown

    Re Frank’s post, if you sign Durant, KP comes back strong, and you draft Zion, this isn’t the same team. Then the spare parts we have make more sense. I don’t know why you wouldn’t sign up for that team. (Except for Timmy, who maybe won’t look so bad as a fourth option?)

  110. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    I don’t care much what the stats say about Hardaway this year because his role has changed so much compared to the past. I think he’s a better all around player now than in the past. The problem is that he’s not getting any better shooting 3s. Without that, he’s never going to be an especially efficient scorer. As is, he would add little to nothing to the offense on a good team (we are so bad he’s actually helps the offense). And since he’s a negative defender, he’s simply not a very good basketball player right now. He’s a scorer off the bench that you don’t pay a lot to.

    If I could, I would move him for quicker space or a better player, but really, the more I think about it, we are so bad and so far away from being good, he’ll be off the cap by the time that happens anyway. The only thing that alters that is one of the stars actually wanting to come to NY. Then we may need the space sooner. I simply don’t think a guy like Durant has enough of a window to consider that at his age. Maybe I’m wrong. But I don’t see it.

  111. Brian Cronin

    Durant coming here is never going to be logical. It would only happen because Durant is a weirdo. But, well, Durant is a weirdo, so I think it could actually still happen. But yes, if you apply logic to it, it makes no sense.

  112. amv8

    2 points from yesterday’s game
    Kanter came off with some bad juju made to come off the bench AND getting sent off while receiving a black eye in the process. It just wasn’t his night.
    The narrative by the coaching staff that Frank ‘the tank ‘ (FTT) is unselfish is being called into question. There was a sequence in the order of play where FTT had a one on one fast break, not only did he not attack the basket, he deliberately slowed down and passed it backwards where of course the defence caught up. He just doesn’t have the eye of he tiger

  113. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    The Knicks will not be in the running to sign Durant or any top free agent. We should really worry about fixing the guard situation and bringing Vonleh back on a four year contract.

  114. kevin5318

    @118 From his perspective coming to play with KP and Zion would be a good situation. KP is considered a unicorn by many NBA players(including himself) and Zion’s insane hype is universal.

    We know KP isn’t worthy of a max(yet) but I could see him liking this roster with those two. Plus he’s close with Trier and Royal Ivey.

  115. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Tank is really humming tonight. Magic are distancing themselves (insurance for the inevitable 4-game winning streak in April), Bulls are up 4 going into the final quarter, Cavs keeping pace with the Heat and Hawks are crushing the Wolves with 47 points in the first 14 minutes.

    Suns are at home against the Thunder missing Paul George. No high hopes there but it’s a winnable game if Ayton and Booker show up.

  116. DRed

    Just as Phil Jackson feared right after Porzingis was drafted, players that tall and that lanky are extremely susceptible to injuries.

    This is the perfect distillation of the whole Jackson experience.

  117. rama, mayor of Realitytown

    The Durant rumors are persistent and coming from more than one camp. Does it make sense to me? Not really. But I’m not bringing it up like a fanboy; I’m just allowing that there may be some fire where there’s all that smoke.

    KP coming full strength next year doesn’t seem crazy either. This year he’ll probably stink, but maybe the injury is a blessing in disguise if it forces him to work on the kind of muscle support that will prevent injuries in the future and give him more endurance.

    And a top 3 pick… Well, we have to be due, no? Can’t the basketball gods shine on us every few decades?

  118. thenoblefacehumper

    This is the perfect distillation of the whole Jackson experience

    Seriously. I’m sure Rosen has another gem somewhere that’s like “just as the prescient Phil Jackson feared when he made him the highest paid player in the NBA and gave him a full no trade clause, Carmelo Anthony is the same player in his 12th season as he was in his first eleven.”

    Luka…what else is there to say?

  119. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Harrison Barnes thinks he’s Jordan. Every single one of his shot attempts is an off-balance midrange jumper.

  120. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Andrew Wiggins has a max contract through 2023, and I hope someone makes that face into a .gif for posterity.

  121. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    WIGGINS IS A FUCKING SCRUB AND I FUCKING LOVE IT

    SOLE POSSESSION OF 2ND PLACE, BOYZ

    Also, I’m loving Prince’s “Uptown” playing during this timeout.

  122. ess-dog

    Tank keeps rollin’ with Hawks and Bulls wins!

    Man, Indy looks really good, especially with the O’Quinn/McDermott connection leading the bench. Love those guys.

  123. Brian Cronin

    I like the meme that put Luka’s face on Lebron’s body from when Lebron freaked out over JR’s dumb play at the end of Game 1 of last year’s Finals. Luka was none too pleased with the end of that game.

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