Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, November 17, 2018

New York Knicks 95 – Washington Wizards 108 – Game Recap

It seems like late fourth quarter meltdowns are becoming a thing for this team. In what was probably the worst game played by the Knicks this season, we’ve witnessed the team stumble and bumble again in the last 8 minutes, reinforcing the Fizdale quote from before the last Nets game: “We’re playing college basketball right now; good for 40 minutes but not for 48″.

This game was not very fun to watch, even when the team was on its patented good third quarter/fake comeback (the score was tied with just 9:13 to go in the fourth quarter). Lots of putrid offensive sets by the Knicks, coupled with some inspired defense by Washington, were the main culprit in making this game the least watchable so far. That, and the fact that I watched it after waking up at 5 am because today is a loooooong day of work. But mostly the futility of our offense.

The good:

– Enes Kanter (18 pts, 12 rebs, 57% FG, +2 +/-) had a nice bounce back game, and the Knicks needed all of it to stay in the game. His defense was the same mish mash of botched rotations, slow feet and weak hops, but at least his energy level was high. A vintage Kanter game, with some dervish-like reverse layups and hands like magnets for boards. Only one turnover (even if I counted more, must have been some early wake dizziness) and a sense of focus throughout his entire playing time. I can’t say I was of Fiz’s advice when he benched him to bring back Mitch into the fold with the game getting out of our hands. I’m totally on board with Mitch closing games, but Enes was playing well and deserved to stay on the court. He even forced a John Wall turnover in the fourth!

– Mario Hezonja (11 pts, 8 rebs, 3 ast, +11 +/-) at last played a sound game, where he looked more like a fully formed human being occupying physical space and less a poltergeist haunting the nights of us poor souls who root for the orange and blue guys. This time his impact was tangible, he didn’t just compile an empty set of stats, and plus/minus is there to testify (not that I would rely too much on it, but in a game like this it tells you something for sure). His quick trigger from three was a godsend in the third quarter, while in the fourth he was blocked a couple times on weak attempts, and his defense on Markieff Morris was at times very lackadaisical. Apart from that, though, he was solid and jumped into passing lines with unusual resolution, tallying 3 steals in the process. My guess is that tomorrow he’ll be ghost-like again, but it was to nice to know you, corporeal Mario.

– Trey Burke (13 pts, 3 rebs, 2 ast, -2 +/-) was the spark plug that helped tie the game, with some spring 2018 forays into the paint. It’s no coincidence that in our worst game of the season our best three guys were Enes, Mario and Trey, aka the frustrating bench mob from the last 6 games; it meant that our actual core (is that right? Do we already have a young core in place?) was completely out of sorts, even if there were different reasons for the youngsters. Anyway, Trey had his chance to leave a mark in 20 minutes tonight, and he did. I hope Fiz sees him as a “break in case of emergency” cog, and is not convinced to reinsert him back into the rotation with a more prominent role.

The bad:

– When Noah Vonleh (2 pts. 4 rebs, 50% FG, -13 +/-) sucks, he sucks really hard. Apart from the fact the he committed again too many useless fouls that limited his playing time, he was able to post a -13 plus/minus in only 10 minutes of play, and this in a game when we desperately needed his ability on the glass. In the first half the Wizards mauled our guys on the offensive glass, and without Vonleh we had just Kanter to fight them – Mitch is not ready to get a substantial amount of defensive caroms. Through all the game Noah was listless, maybe remembering that his first name is the last name of a certain center we ended up buying out a few weeks ago? Let’s hope third time is the charm and that he’ll get his mojo back tomorrow against a bad Chicago team.

– Frank Ntilikina (6 pts, 1 reb, 4 ast, -13 +/-) was abysmal as a point guard tonight. Don’t let the team-high 4 assists fool you, even if the one for the Mitch alley oop was sweet as pure honey. He failed repeatedly to initiate the action and turned the ball 4 times in the first half alone. His defense is still pretty good, but without a credible offensive threat from the dribble alongside him the other team is too free to swarm him and get him to make the most basic mistakes, such as picking up his dribble too soon and generally think too much about was has to be done. As much as defense comes to him naturally (his 2 blocks were nice), watching him run the offense is a similar experience to watch me cook some BBQ ribs: I definitely don’t look at ease, the flavor is a bit off and I move awkwardly for most of the time (I cook a mean lasagna, though).

Fun-sized bits:

– Mitchell Robinson posted his third double figures game in five starts, grabbed 4 offensive boards and was 4 for 4 from the stripe; what impressed me most, though, was how he moves well on the perimeter on defense and how he stopped jumping in the air after most fakes. I can’t wait to see our defense with him, KP and Frank on the court at the same time. For what it’s worth, Mitch features with Dotson in the second best 2-man lineup for DRtg with more than 100 minutes played together (103.7 and a healthy +6.3 NetRtg). Wanna know the best 2-man DRtg with more than 100 minutes? Mario Hezonja and Alonzo Trier (93.9 in 125 minutes). Cats and dogs living together, y’all.

– Tim Hardaway Jr. had an atrocious game but I don’t fault him that much. He got hurt but the coach elected to let him play. He was suffering and it showed. He still found a way to net the game worst plus/minus at -21. He has the third worst NetRtg of the whole team at -9.1 (behind end of the bench guys Kornet and Baker). Something’s gotta give.

– Damyean Dotson had a huge run at the end of the second quarter to keep the game from spiraling out of control early. I’m impressed at the poise and maturity he shows, as he brings a lot to the table and essentially takes away nothing. Another game with 10+ points, his 8th straight.

– Emmanuel Mudiay has been better than we hoped, for now. Yeah, our expectations were really low, but he’s playing a much better brand of basketball than what we were used to see. He’s another guy who suffers from playing too much half-court basketball, but in the last two games he doesn’t look completely lost. 23 minutes for him tonight, 4 points, 3 boards, 3 assists, 1 steal, 1 block and a plus/minus of +2.

– Allonzo Trier was a bit intermittent tonight, alternating vigorous plays to lethargic action in a span of seconds. Liked his aggressiveness on defense, even yapping in the face of John Wall once.

– Lance Thomas yadda yadda yadda nothing yawn. Just 8 minutes of playing time for him and that’s ok.

– Bradley Beal has 4 blocks (one on Mitch, ouch). John Wall had 5 steals. We turned the ball over 20 times. That’s your entire game.

– I didn’t remember John Wall being so douchey. I guess it’s an effect of Scott Brooks as a coach, to turn your franchise point guards into unsufferable pricks.

Ok, I’ll go sip another cup of espresso before falling asleep on the keyboard. See you tomorrow after the Bulls game and the Clone War (THJ vs. LaVine)!

126 comments on “New York Knicks 95 – Washington Wizards 108 – Game Recap

  1. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    Running sucks (but congrats Z-old-man)

    Was this the first time you watched Mitch play?
    Take an ice bath. ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY FIVE MINUTES.

    Surely you understand the difference between my praise and yours.

  2. Farfa Post author

    Z-Man, you have my utmost respect for completing the marathon. I can’t run for more than 5 miles to save my life.

  3. Owen

    Nice cap!

    I came away from the game wishing we could cross Trier and Frank. That would be a very solid nba player. Otherwise, pretty forgettable game.

    Everyone hates the guy but Dwight Howard made a big difference in the game, although the box score doesn’t really show it outside of the team high +27. He’s actually underrated now and unbelievably only 32.

  4. Farfa Post author

    I’m hyped as anyone about Mitch, but he’s 13th out of 21 rookies who played more than 100 minutes in DReb% (ahead of him, apart from the usual suspects: Donte DiVincenzo, Josh Okogie, Miles Bridges, Chandler Hutchinson; 14th is Trier, with 10.5 to Mitch’s 10.9). Rebounding under your own basket is a pretty important skill. If he doesn’t improve at that (and rebounding is one of the hardest thing to improve, as years and years of data seem to prove) he won’t ever be a star.

  5. Farfa Post author

    To put things into context, DeAndre Jordan entered the league as raw as it goes and still posted a 25.5 DReb%; Capela had 31.8; Tyson Chandler had 19.8; hell, KP had 20.8 (and got worse each subsequent year, yikes).

    Mitch is bad at defensive rebounding in a historical way, for now. He’s on pace to have the worst defensive rebounding performance ever recorded by a rookie seven footer who played more than 160 minutes.

  6. Hubert

    I came away from the game wishing we could cross Trier and Frank

    Kinda sounds like SGA. Not as good as Frank on defense, but very good.

  7. chrisk06811

    I am not worried about Mich’s d rebounding at all. first, he’s played like 100 minutes. come on. second, we are giving up the 2nd fewest shot attempts in the league….less opportunities. we are in the middle of the pack for opponent’s offensive rebounds…that says to me we are not getting abused because we can’t block out.

  8. Hubert

    There’s going to be a lot of competition for a bottom-3 slot this year, but I believe in our Knicks.

    Hear, hear. There’s been some unbridled optimism after wins here. That’s fair because we are seeing some real positives. But those positives aren’t likely to seriously impact our win total this year.

    I probably went a little too low predicting 24 wins. That’s because Mitchell is more ready to contribute than I anticipated. But we’re still in that bottom 3 fight.

    Phoenix, for one, has to get better. They’ve got Booker and Ayton and an army of switchable wings who can knock down a three with efficiency. Even in the West that has to be better than a team depending on Tim Hardaway as it’s #1 scoring threat.

    If somehow Cleveland lucks out and wins the opportunity to draft Zion Williamson, I will be angry on the internet.

  9. Farfa Post author

    I’m not saying we have to worry – we probably don’t, since it’s a very small sample size and he’ll learn to be in position to get some of the boards that now he doesn’t snatch simply because he’s busy 20 feet away from the rim. I expect him to end the season around 16 DReb% as the defensive schemes keep him closer to the basket. I’m just saying that it’s best to temper our expectations and that is waaaaaay too early to dub him a star.

  10. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    I will accept losing the lottery based on the odds alone, even at the #1 slot. I will not accept sitting at #3 with Zion on the board and them picking anyone else.

    If Robinson and Porzingis are each going to be anemic rebounders, they need someone who can bang in the paint, either at PF or C. Zion is that guy. Kyle O’Quinn would have been that guy. Those guys are out there.

  11. Zanzibar

    that is waaaaaay too early to dub him a star.

    It’s not too early in Mitch’s case to dub him a future star. You have to look at the probability of a player’s athleticism translating into wins. DSJ is an example of a very athletic player where it does not translate. It’s plain as day that it translates in Mitch’s case in the following key areas and that there’s no reason to believe it’s not sustainable:

    > Lob-dunk threat (tremendous effect on productivity of offense)
    > Offensive rebounding
    > PnR Defense
    > Switchability/Defend in space
    > Rim protection
    > Transition

  12. Z-man

    Thanks gents, combo of walking and running made things much more tolerable. The crowd is what it’s all about, though. Brooklyn is something else. There were even some hecklers!

    The last time I did it was in 2016 and was on top of the world for about 48 hours, thinking about how the world could be if we all worked together for the common cause of all humanity…which is what you see in the NYC streets during the marathon. Then the election happened, and it all came crashing down in flame and ash.

    Maybe this time will be different. Would love to be able to have rational conversations again with those who feel different than I do about political issues, but it seems unlikely. When you celebrate a president who is openly tolerant of, if not in full support of, the causes of white nationalist racism, antisemitism, xenophobia, misogyny, vilifying the free press as the enemy of the people, destruction of the environment for short-term corporate and political gain, etc., you are pretty much irredeemable in my eyes and I want as little to do with you as possible. Sad to say, it has created breeches my family life that I fear are beyond repair.

  13. Hubert

    I will not accept sitting at #3 with Zion on the board and them picking anyone else.

    What if, between now and the draft, Mitchell Robinson demonstrates that it is probable he will be Clint Capela 2.0, one of the wings (Reddish or Little, for instance) puts up outstanding advanced stats while showing solid defensive potential, and we have no evidence that Zion can shoot?

    I love Zion but when I look at a core of Frank, Porzingis, Mitchell, I see an efficient scoring, two way, playmaking wing as the precise player to add. But then I look at Zion highlights and think he’s the kind of player that you add no matter what you need.

    I take it you’re in the latter camp. But would you still be there if, after a year of college ball, all he’s demonstrated is supreme athletic ability while not being able to shoot? It seems like the best role for him on an NBA team is the same as Mitchell’s. I don’t want to be the dumb team that passes on Zion for team need, but I also don’t want to load up on duplicate players if other good players are available.

  14. Zanzibar

    i agree w/ farfa. by zanzibar’s logic, anthony randolph should be in the hall of fame.

    Randolph was terrible the moment he stepped on NBA Bball court. He’s an example where his athleticism didn’t translate. It never did. Mitch decimated the competition in high school. He decimated the competition in AAU ball. He decimated the competition in Summer League setting records. And he’s more than holding his own against NBA competition which is remarkable at such an early stage given his history (when he started playing, year off, level of competition before NBA).

    BTW It’s too early to dub KP a future star.

  15. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Some of Robinson’s problems rebounding are the same as KPs. He’s not strong enough to get and maintain position all the time when he goes up and bangs. He also sometimes has the ball stripped away. But he’s trying to compensate. I noticed a few times lately where he successfully tipped the ball out and another Knick came up with it. So the Knicks got the ball but he didn’t necessarily get the credit for the rebound even though he kept it away from the opposing big.

  16. Farfa Post author

    If Robinson and Porzingis are each going to be anemic rebounders, they need someone who can bang in the paint, either at PF or C. Zion is that guy. Kyle O’Quinn would have been that guy. Those guys are out there.

    If Vonleh stops fouling like there’s no tomorrow, he can be that guy, at least this season.

  17. Owen

    Tyson Chandler had a 20% def rebound rate in his first year and was up to 27% by his third year. Definitely room for him to improve I think but it is a reason for concern.

  18. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Anthony Randolph had immense talent and could put up great stats at times, but he had a few drawbacks that ended his development.

    1. Low basketball IQ
    2. Notoriously lazy
    3. Not strong enough to play C but couldn’t defend the perimeter (or in general) and couldn’t shoot from outside

  19. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    When you celebrate a president who is openly tolerant of, if not in full support of, the causes of white nationalist racism, antisemitism, xenophobia, misogyny, vilifying the free press as the enemy of the people, destruction of the environment for short-term corporate and political gain, etc., you are pretty much irredeemable in my eyes and I want as little to do with you as possible.

    preach

  20. d-mar

    Frank is averaging 29.4 minutes per game, and is attempting 8.3 shots per game.

    That’s really unacceptable. Not saying I want him forcing up contested 3’s or anything, but unless you’re putting up stellar assist numbers (sort of like Rondo in his prime when he didn’t score a lot) then you’re just kind of a useless cog in the offense and it makes the opposing defense’s job that much easier.

  21. chrisk06811

    I’m just contrasting the statements above. he’s a week D rebounder, maybe….it’s been like 100 minutes. He’s going to be a future star…maybe. again, 100 minutes. but, if you can already see him as a future star in those 100 mins, what about the d rebounding? how can a center be a star if he can’t hit the d boards?

  22. Farfa Post author

    @23

    Frank would really benefit from having a drive and kick primary ball-handler alongside him. THJ and Trier have the drive part, but their “kick” leaves a lot to be desired. Mudiay could be that guy (he really is the best passer on this team), but in a parallel universe where the whole League doesn’t know he can’t shoot from anywhere.

  23. Bruno Almeida

    Stop making me like you Z-Man, this is getting weird. (Congrats on the marathon!)

    I think it’s too early to freak out about Robinson’s rebounding numbers because well, we didn’t expect him to even play this early. I understand rebounding is something that prospects usually already either have or don’t when they get drafted, but he should be compared to the kids that went straight from high school to the NBA, not players with college or European experience.

    Kevin Garnett for example was a bad rebounder when he got drafted (same trb% as Robinson has now, 13%), then he got a lot stronger and suddenly he could box out people and stand his ground against stronger players. Just the fact that Mitchell is being able to play 30+ minutes and contribute at this early in his career is positive, and there’s so much room for growth still.

  24. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    What if, between now and the draft, Mitchell Robinson demonstrates that it is probable he will be Clint Capela 2.0, one of the wings (Reddish or Little, for instance) puts up outstanding advanced stats while showing solid defensive potential, and we have no evidence that Zion can shoot?

    I would not be unhappy to get Little or Barrett. Not unhappy at all, as long as Zion is not on the board.

    I love Zion but when I look at a core of Frank, Porzingis, Mitchell, I see an efficient scoring, two way, playmaking wing as the precise player to add. But then I look at Zion highlights and think he’s the kind of player that you add no matter what you need.

    I suspect that Zion is going to be an instant success in the NBA. He has such a nose for the rim that he’ll come right in and take it to stretch 4s and dominate slow traditional 5s in a big way.

    I take it you’re in the latter camp. But would you still be there if, after a year of college ball, all he’s demonstrated is supreme athletic ability while not being able to shoot? It seems like the best role for him on an NBA team is the same as Mitchell’s. I don’t want to be the dumb team that passes on Zion for team need, but I also don’t want to load up on duplicate players if other good players are available.

    Athletic ability gets you far if you can bully your way to the rim:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtaW9qAEAMg

    Through 250 minutes this season, Giannis has taken only 10.6% of his shots from 10-23 feet. He’s still one of the best players in the league. And although it’s unfair to compare 99% of players to the Freak, Zion is on the level. He weighs 60+ lbs. more than Giannis and can dunk from the free throw line. This is a guy who would have to get the worst yips imaginable to flame out in the NBA.

  25. Farfa Post author

    Part of Mitch problems on the defensive glass is that (like KP) he’s too far away from the basket when the ball hit the rim, and doesn’t have Dotson’s instinct to dive for the ball. When he’s right under the basket, as is the case on offense where he’s useless from 10+ feet from the cup, he’s not that bad as bouncing off other bodies.

  26. d-mar

    I spent most of the day yesterday driving 20 somethings from Brooklyn around my district in NJ to canvass for the Democratic candidate. It was really heartening to see their exuberance as they get off the train and jumped right into it.

    I hope and pray that this youthful enthusiasm is nationwide. They truly could be the difference tomorrow, and the best chance we have to contain the maniac in the White House.

  27. Farfa Post author

    Just the fact that Mitchell is being able to play 30+ minutes and contribute at this early in his career is positive, and there’s so much room for growth still.

    Agreed. I was saying that, well, it’s better to not get all that excited about a center who (in a very limited sample size) is having problems on the defensive boards, right? I’m already on record saying that I guess Mitch will end up being more productive than KP, so I am definitely a fan of the big guy. I just try to stay grounded.

  28. alsep73

    If Tim needs to sit a few games to let his back heal, does Trier start, or Burke? Trier can probably better approximate TH2’s streaky volume scoring, but will his moves play as well against other team’s first units? And would playing Frank alongside Burke only make him regress further offensively?

  29. Zanzibar

    I’m just contrasting the statements above. he’s a week D rebounder

    I don’t believe that to be true. To my eye, Mitch does have proper technique in boxing out unlike KP. Like Strat mentioned, he does at times get out-muscled but I think that nature will take care of that by the time he’s 22yo. I’ve noticed quite a few times where Dotson and Timmy have swooped in to take the rebound where Mitch had his man boxed out. The argument could be made that it’s better those guys get the rebound to facilitate the fast break. In addition, he’s played minutes with Vonleh and Enes. TEAM rebounding is what’s important in judging the effect on wins. In a future lineup of Frank/Timmy/Dot/Knox/Mitch, I’d be more than happy if Mitch boxes out and those other guys get the actual rebound.

  30. Hubert

    @27 I’m leaning your way, too. Just not 100% yet. I know it’s stupid to look for need at this stage in our development but this team needs a good two-way playmaking wing and I’m optimistic Mitchell could be between 80 to 100% of what Zion is likely going to be. If Mitchell proves to be a deficient rebounder after a full year then that would change my estimation, but it’s too early to tell.

    Of course, my ideal answer to the need for a two-way playmaking wing who scores efficiently currently plays on the Warriors and will be a free agent this summer.

  31. Hubert

    And although it’s unfair to compare 99% of players to the Freak, Zion is on the level. He weighs 60+ lbs. more than Giannis and can dunk from the free throw line. This is a guy who would have to get the worst yips imaginable to flame out in the NBA.

    This is what makes Zion so interesting. I’m thinking of him as the supreme version of Capela and you’re thinking about Giannis, which is fair if Zion can handle the ball well.

  32. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    https://youtu.be/yGdg2TtzM8s?t=11

    Look at that burst when he gathers and goes up with two feet. The next possession he misses a low floater and is immediately above the rim to grab the board. Dude is Barkley all over again. I am so excited to see him come to a league where defenses will be put off-balance and rotating on most possessions.

  33. Owen

    Yeah, he looks like another Barkley, but potentially with a better handle. Or a bigger LJ. Or maybe a shorter, wider Shawn Kemp. He’s a freakish physical talent who seems to have a solid base of skills. My worries with him would be that he won’t age well and that he would be somewhat uniquely exposed to injury relative to a lot of guys in the NBA who can survive on frame and skills alone like, I don’t know, Shaun Livingston. That’s pure speculation of course but his game seems quite dependent on him having what looks like a sixth gear.

    Man, are we hyped for Zion or what? Don’t think we have been like this collectively about a prospect in a while.

    Re Mitch, he needs to get stronger. You need to jump from a strong base and he just seems to be getting out muscled on the defensive box outs. Can’t really get to his leaping ability. I think a year of strength training would make a big difference.

  34. Z-man

    Hard to read too much into a game against mighty Ferris St., but the guy is a guaranteed superstar in the NBA, it’s so freaking obvious.

    By 11:00 PM tomorrow we’ll know a lot more about Zion and about the direction of our country.

  35. rama, king of superfluous poppycock

    Or a bigger LJ.

    That’s who I was thinking of. People are forgetting LJ before the back injury – same sort of body and explosiveness. It’s impressive LJ remade his game after the injury, and it speaks to the issues if Zion gets hurt.

  36. Hubert

    As much as I like Zion, I’ve been having a hard time reconciling the way it looks obvious that he’s going to be a superstar with the fact that most draft experts have him ranked between 2nd and 5th. It could be that he’ll rise by the end of the year. I’ve assumed it’s because there are things I’m not seeing in these highlight packages.

  37. Farfa Post author

    Just wait until he gets his first 20-20 on a conference game. Of course it’s possible that a team will draft for need and choose a wing before him, but I find it hard to believe he’ll slip after #3. I think I’d trade anyone on our roster to get a shot at Zion (just like I would have done with Doncic).

  38. Owen

    Yeah, there is a dichotomy between Zion as a player and Zion as a must watch phenomenon. Two different things. He may not end up being the best player in the NBA but you are going to tune into him on League Pass more than any other player in the 2019 draft without question.

  39. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    As much as I like Zion, I’ve been having a hard time reconciling the way it looks obvious that he’s going to be a superstar with the fact that most draft experts have him ranked between 2nd and 5th. It could be that he’ll rise by the end of the year. I’ve assumed it’s because there are things I’m not seeing in these highlight packages.

    Occam’s Razor says that the draft analysts and pundits are morons.

    http://www.nbadraft.net/players/zion-williamson

    Zion: Athleticism, 9
    Size 7 (what the fuck?)
    Quickness 8
    Post skills 7
    Rebounding 8

    Wiggins: Athleticism 10
    Jan Vesely: Size 10
    Hezonja, Athleticism 9
    D. Russell: Size 9
    Mudiay: Size 9, athleticism 9, ball handling 9, potential 9, jump shot 8
    Bargnani: Rebounding 7, potential 9, intangibles 9
    Jokic: Intangibles 7, post skills 7, rebounding 7, NBA ready 7, potential 7
    Anthony Bennett: athleticism 9, potential 9

    These guys really have no idea what they’re doing.

  40. Hubert

    If we’re outside Zion position I would definitely package Knox and our pick for Zion or I would make the Dallas/Atlanta trade with our 2020 pick top 5 protected.

    I’d rather do the latter and sign Durant, rendering that pick less valuable :)

    I mean, come on, I don’t think I’m crazy optimistic to say this team could challenge for the East next year (especially if Kawhi leaves Toronto):

    1 Frank
    2 Hardaway
    3 Durant
    4 Porzingis
    5 Williamson

    Bench: Burke, Trier, Knox, Robinson

  41. Hubert

    Occam’s Razor says that the draft analysts and pundits are morons.

    Always a distinct possibility, too. So far I’m going with “I’ve only seen highlights, and highlights can be deceiving.”

    I don’t know how many of you follow Association Football closely, but over in Europe it’s extremely common for your favorite club to sign a young player who no one has ever seen play because he’s in a South American or Eastern European football league that doesn’t broadcast its games internationally. It’s become a cliche to fall in love with youtube clips of a teenager playing against inferior competition and inevitably being disappointed. So I’m being cautious with my optimism… until tomorrow, at least.

  42. Bruno Almeida

    @45

    I understand the feeling but in soccer the bigger clubs have gigantic scouting networks and with no cap space or roster spots to think about they can just throw money at any young prospect for whatever reason with not much risk involved into it. I feel NBA teams are much more cautious because of the nature of the drafts and the roster construction rules, which doesn’t mean at all that they don’t make terrible mistakes and have issued judging players.

    It’s just the beginning of a year long cycle where guys like Zion will be almost simultaneously overhyped and nitpicked about and honestly, I just think most of the times those pundits go much more on gut feeling than any analysis, because there’s not much sound analysis you can really do without a good sample size that’s somewhat comparable to NBA level. So I don’t put too much stock into draft predictions and to be frank I have no idea on what the best way to go about thinking about prospects is.

  43. JK47

    Not saying I want him forcing up contested 3’s or anything, but unless you’re putting up stellar assist numbers (sort of like Rondo in his prime when he didn’t score a lot) then you’re just kind of a useless cog in the offense and it makes the opposing defense’s job that much easier.

    Yeah, this is the problem with Frank in a nutshell. “Useless cog” is a really good way to describe his offensive game.

    He never tries to break down a defender and he has no idea how to initiate an offense. He generally gets the ball and just passes it to somebody standing at the three point line, that’s extent to which he initiates the offense.

    The “let Frank try to play point guard” strategy isn’t going to work if he doesn’t, you know, try to play point guard. If he just dribbles across half court and hands the ball to Noah Vonleh, he’s not really learning anything and the team’s offense develops lots of bad habits.

  44. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    I said it last week when he had a couple of good games. There are going to be a lot of ups and down with Frank on offense (including his 3p% declining again). As he learns and gets better, teams are going to adjust and make it difficult for him again. It’s going to be 2 steps forward and 1 step back every couple of months. All we can ask is that he keeps slowly adding to his game and improving on the skills he already has.

  45. geo

    I spent most of the day yesterday driving 20 somethings from Brooklyn around my district in NJ to canvass for the Democratic candidate. It was really heartening to see their exuberance as they get off the train and jumped right into it.

    I hope and pray that this youthful enthusiasm is nationwide. They truly could be the difference tomorrow, and the best chance we have to contain the maniac in the White House.

    great job d-mar :)

    life is super busy all the time – but, this stuff is really important…hopefully our last national election was a clear reminder that it does not pay to sit on the sidelines for this kind of stuff…

  46. Donnie Walsh

    Randolph was terrible the moment he stepped on NBA Bball court. He’s an example where his athleticism didn’t translate. It never did. Mitch decimated the competition in high school. He decimated the competition in AAU ball. He decimated the competition in Summer League setting records.

    Wait, are we talking about the same Anthony Randolph, he who once owned the summer league records himself??

    http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2009/07/15/randolphs-42-its-just-summer-league-but-yes-hes-a-major-warriors-centerpiece/

    (BTW, hindsight isn’t just 20/20, it’s often hilarious too…

    “Randolph delivered with nuclear energy. He wants to be great. He wants to be the GREATEST. That’s what everybody told me from the get-go last season, and that’s what everybody still says. He has that elite-level arrogance, which is absolutely a good thing, and looks like is carrying through against SL Scrubs.”

  47. Z-man

    Yeah, this is the problem with Frank in a nutshell. “Useless cog” is a really good way to describe his offensive game.

    He never tries to break down a defender and he has no idea how to initiate an offense. He generally gets the ball and just passes it to somebody standing at the three point line, that’s extent to which he initiates the offense.

    The “let Frank try to play point guard” strategy isn’t going to work if he doesn’t, you know, try to play point guard. If he just dribbles across half court and hands the ball to Noah Vonleh, he’s not really learning anything and the team’s offense develops lots of bad habits.

    sigh…

  48. Hubert

    I hope the Knicks use Clyde as a consultant from time to time. I would sit him and Frank down to watch game tape as much as possible so Clyde can tell him all the times he should have shot the ball or gone to the rim.

  49. Zanzibar

    Wait, are we talking about the same Anthony Randolph, he who once owned the summer league records himself??

    When I wrote that Randolph was terrible the moment he stepped on NBA Bball court, I was talking about NBA regular season not Summer League, pre-season, or D league. He blocked shots and that was about it. It was always unrealized potential once started playing real NBA games. Of course he played well enough at other levels or he never would have been drafted 14th. Mitch excelled at every level including actual NBA games.

  50. bidiong

    On the political front: What do you guys think of Governor Cuomo? I think he runs a pretty corrupt state government and would like him to go bye bye. I wish Larry Sharpe ran on the Republican ticket, might have had a shot then. The Republicans tried to recruit him and he turned them down.

  51. Nick C.

    Albany has been a hot mess for at least 150 years. It was that way when both Roosevelts were there. In the last twenty years both the highest profile Republican, Joe Bruno, and Democrat, Sheldon Silver were ousted from office in scandal. You could break the Ted Nelson word limit just listing the “villians” from this millenium.

  52. Owen

    Anthony Randolph is such an interesting case. It’s been fascinating to see him go on to have pretty significant success in Europe both for Real and for Slovenia. I find it hard to believe he couldn’t be an above average contributor in the NBA but can understand why no one wants to take the risk of bringing him over to play a smaller role than the one he is currently filling pretty adequately for one of the best teams in Europe.

  53. Z-man

    Honestly, I am tolerant of folks who have conservative positions out of principle (pro-life, for example) and am happy to listen to their pov and offer a rebuttal. I could talk politics all day with Nicole Wallace or Jeff Flake, even though I have visceral disagreements with some of their stances on particular issues. But Trump is so far over the line that only pure hypocrites and sell-outs can justify supporting his presidency in any way. The hypocrisy in the religious community is particularly mind-boggling.

  54. d-mar

    Hey, don’t forget about your neighbors in the great state of New Jersey, I’ll go villain by villain with you and I think it would be pretty damn close.

    I’ll be voting with one hand tomorrow, one pulling the lever for Menendez, the other holding my nose.

  55. Zanzibar

    I hope and pray that this youthful enthusiasm is nationwide. They truly could be the difference tomorrow, and the best chance we have to contain the maniac in the White House.

    There’s some evidence that this might be happening. Here are some #’s as of Nov 2nd comparing early vote turnout of 18-29yo this election cycle compared to 2014 early vote turnout of 18-29yo:
    Arizona +217%
    Florida +131%
    Michigan +128%
    Nevada +364%
    Texas +448%
    Georgia +415%
    Tennessee +767% (Taylor Swift?)

    If there is to be a systematic error in the polls which would favor D’s, it will probably have to be from a larger number of young (and new) voters this cycle. I wouldn’t get my hopes up though because early voting in general is up for R’s and Trump followers are like a cult. Plus D’s are beyond terrible at messaging (identity politics, immigration) which hurts them with Independents.

    We learned a lot about our nation in 2016. We will learn even more than we did then in 2018.

  56. JK47

    It also doesn’t matter who is guarding Frank, he is not going to try to beat a defender one-on-one. He had 50 year old Vince Carter defending him in space earlier this season and he quickly dumped the ball off to whoever was standing at the three point line. That’s kind of a fatal flaw for a “point guard.”

  57. 2FOR18, understands math

    Maybe this time will be different. Would love to be able to have rational conversations again with those who feel different than I do about political issues, but it seems unlikely. When you celebrate a president who is openly tolerant of, if not in full support of, the causes of white nationalist racism, antisemitism, xenophobia, misogyny, vilifying the free press as the enemy of the people, destruction of the environment for short-term corporate and political gain, etc., you are pretty much irredeemable in my eyes and I want as little to do with you as possible. Sad to say, it has created breeches my family life that I fear are beyond repair.

    I’ll take cognitive dissonance for a thousand, Alex.

  58. alsep73

    Kornet assigned to the G-League. Barring injury, he’s not playing for us, so might as well, I guess.

  59. 2FOR18, understands math

    Zion is hopefully far from a finished product. He can’t shoot and will probably be a turnover machine, but the fun factor with him is off the charts, plus it’s been so long since we had a true beast like Oak or Mason that I don’t care if he never becomes a good shooter.

  60. Hubert

    I may have underestimated Zion’s handle earlier. Few of the highlights I had seen prior to today showed him attacking the rim with the ball in his hands in half court sets. If that’s indeed what he offers, he many not need to shoot.

  61. Donnie Walsh

    When I wrote that Randolph was terrible the moment he stepped on NBA Bball court, I was talking about NBA regular season not Summer League, pre-season, or D league. He blocked shots and that was about it. It was always unrealized potential once started playing real NBA games. Of course he played well enough at other levels or he never would have been drafted 14th. Mitch excelled at every level including actual NBA games.

    Oh, okay. Seems strange, though, to draw a comparison between two players, cite evidence from high school, college, and summer league for one, but ignore the same evidence for the other.

    But even still, looking at their first 150 minutes in the NBA (ridiculous as it may be), the “terrible” guy had more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks than the “dominating” guy.

    So, the takeaway here is that it’s silly to base anything on summer league, or high school ball, or club league, or the cardboard boxes they hung over the doors to their rooms to shoot nerd balls through. And it’s silly to make any bold predictions after 150 minutes of bad team basketball. (I’d say let’s wait until at least Veterans Day to decide this tale-of-the-tape!:)

  62. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    But Trump is so far over the line that only pure hypocrites and sell-outs can justify supporting his presidency in any way. The hypocrisy in the religious community is particularly mind-boggling.

    I know a number of Trump voters in NY. Most are blue collar workers that typically vote democrat. Some are Wall St types more focused on economic issues, taxes, markets etc.. I’m still searching for someone that truly likes Trump. They don’t like him personally and disagree with any number of his policies. They just like the alternatives even less.

    If the democrats would put up a moderate candidate that was generally pro business and capitalism, in favor sensible environmental and Wall St regulation without being over the top destructive, reasonable and lawful immigration reform, controlled spending growth, lower defense spending and less involvement overseas, and moderate/liberal social views, they would win in the greatest landslide in all of history.

    Putting up socialists or wildly corrupt/incompetents like Hillary is not a winning formula.

  63. Hubert

    I’m still searching for someone that truly likes Trump.

    You should join my Yankees group chat. I don’t know how I ended up on a liberal Knicks blog and in a Trump-supporting Yankees whatsapp thread. Especially when I think you’re both crazy tribalists.

  64. Z-man

    When you celebrate a president who is openly tolerant of, if not in full support of, the causes of white nationalist racism, antisemitism, xenophobia, misogyny, vilifying the free press as the enemy of the people, destruction of the environment for short-term corporate and political gain, etc.,

    I’ll take “claims to understand math but has serious reading comprehension issues” for $2000, Alex

  65. geo

    reference next year’s draft…all due respect to mister frank – he’s not a true run your offense/penetrate and kick type point guard…

    which means we still need one of those…if we can’t find one in free agency: kyrie (not happening), kemba (not sure i’d want that to happen), dinwiddie (not a bad option), brogdan (not happening), rozier (very interesting – at what price though), rubio (maybe)…

    we’d need to get one from the draft…unfortunately though, from the different nba draft prospect sites i’ve looked at – there doesn’t seem to be many highly ranked prospects from the point guard position (like one out of the first 15 draft prospects)…

    we’re filling some roster holes this year with young promising players – still need that floor general though…

  66. JK47

    Democrats win when they run somebody charismatic. Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry, HRC, you notice anything in common with that group? Those people have the combined charisma of the three-hole punch sitting on my desk.

    Presidential races are basically charisma contests. If the Dems run Beto O’Rourke in 2020 they’ll wipe the floor with Trump.

  67. 2FOR18, understands math

    I know some Trump voters. Some female Hispanic Democrats who hated Hillary. One black guy who is a libertarian but didn’t like Gary Johnson (I held my nose and went with him since he most closely aligned with my principles, but I hated Weld). Just regular people. If the Democrats want them back, I’d recommend that they stop calling them evil and screaming in their faces.

  68. Hubert

    I’ll take “claims to understand math but has serious reading comprehension issues” for $2000, Alex

    No, you personified cognitive dissonance in post @12. In paragraph 2 you wondered why we can’t all get along. In paragraph 3 you signaled to your tribe by literally calling everyone in the other tribe racist, anti-semitic, misogynist, destroyers of the Earth and eaters of babies.

    You could put that one in the textbooks.

  69. 2FOR18, understands math

    I’ll take “claims to understand math but has serious reading comprehension issues” for $2000, Alex

    I ignored that because it’s partisan nonsense. Please see post 71.

    Congrats on the marathon.

  70. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Presidential races are basically charisma contests. If the Dems run Beto O’Rourke in 2020 they’ll wipe the floor with Trump.

    I think Trump was mostly honest about wanting immigration reform, less involvement overseas, making the US more competitive for business, and some of the rest of his platform. I’m not convinced he wanted or even expected to win, let alone that he will definitely run again.

    Becoming president has cost him a HUGE fortune due to boycotts and the diminished value of his name brand. But he still has his loyal following. If he can hold the economy and stock market together for 2 more years (no easy task with rates rising), he can claim victory, leave, and parlay his political following into a TV network, appearance, speeches, books etc.. and make back more than he’s lost. Most politicians eventually get rich off their corruption. So far, it has been an unmitigated disaster for Trump financially.

  71. 2FOR18, understands math

    Democrats win when they run somebody charismatic

    This pretty much goes for any election ever, anywhere.

    Do you recall that when the famous Nixon / Kennedy debate happened, the people who watched it on TV felt that Kennedy won, while those that listened on the radio thought Nixon won.

  72. d-mar

    The 2016 election was not about white working class voters feeling disrespected and voting for their champion Donald Trump. It was about suburban white voters not being able to vote for Hillary because of emails and the Clinton stench. If Joe Biden had run, he would have destroyed Trump.

    And we shouldn’t worry too much about Trump getting re-elected in 2020, there’s going to be a tsunami of Mueller indictments after the midterms and by the time 2020 rolls around, the economy is likely to be turning south.

  73. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Especially when I think you’re both crazy tribalists.

    Don’t put me in any tribe.

    I’m all over the map on issues, but some are more important me to than others so I have more in common with one tribe than the other. On the flip side, imo the term Nazi gets tossed around way to much. It diminishes how evil the Nazis were. However, I’d have to say the NeoCons are the closest thing we’ve ever had to Nazis in the US. They are just less efficient at killing innocent people trying to impose their world view with unjustified wars. They also have better PR.

    My ideal candidate could never get the nomination, let alone win.

  74. Jack Bauer

    “Most politicians eventually get rich off their corruption. So far, it has been an unmitigated disaster for Trump financially.”

    This is fascinating, I keep reading and being told that Trump is so corrupt and is getting rich from his Presidency (along with the idea that he is in fact the Antichrist). That just might be more fake news perhaps.

    The more we drool over getting Zion the more convinced I am that he will be a fantastic player that we will all experience watching in a uniform other than the Knicks (ala Doncic). I do get hope from the reality that NY is relying on THJR for a big part of their offense every night and that is a recipe for a lot of losses. He’s playing better but he’s just not that good as your No.1 option relative to other teams.

  75. Z-man

    No, Hubert, it’s only cognitive dissonance if you can’t interpret that I explained why we can’t all get along at least as well as we did when Bush (either one) or Reagan were serving as president. Having a difference of opinion within the scope of non-racist, non-misogynist, etc. opinions and actions is not inherently objectionable to me. However, I have no interest in “getting along” with those who hold unquestionably racist views or who support candidates that do.

    Republicans had a chance to pick from among 18 or so candidates who did not espouse the contemptuous views long (for over 30 years) held by Trump. (Does birtherism or the Central Park five ring a bell?) They chose not to. I am choosing to hold them accountable for that in my words and actions. I don’t want dialogue with racists, misogynists, homophobes, etc. I want their their voices to be silenced forever. But I am happy to have dialogue with conservatives. There’s no cognitive dissonance there. If you don’t get that, whatever.

  76. TheOakmanCometh

    If the democrats would put up a moderate candidate that was generally pro business and capitalism, in favor sensible environmental and Wall St regulation without being over the top destructive, reasonable and lawful immigration reform, controlled spending growth, lower defense spending and less involvement overseas, and moderate/liberal social views, they would win in the greatest landslide in all of history.

    This basically describes Hillary to a tee. Note: She did not win in the greatest landslide in all of history. (Trump did, minus the eleventy trillion illegals who voted for Hillary.)

    Seriously though, whatever you think of Hillary personally, she was just the kind of moderate pro-business Democrat that you describe. That didn’t get her very far. People said she was too unlikable or a “bad candidate”, which is a nebulous term that can be used to describe anything one wants it to. Dukakis was a bad candidate because he took a silly photo in a tank; Trump bragged about grabbing pussy but he won so he’s not a bad candidate.

    My point is that while many people wish that a moderate, reasonable candidate (D or R) is a lock to unseat Trump, that is far from certain. There are lots and lots of voters who don’t give a damn about policy.

  77. JK47

    If the democrats would put up a moderate candidate that was generally pro business and capitalism, in favor sensible environmental and Wall St regulation without being over the top destructive, reasonable and lawful immigration reform, controlled spending growth, lower defense spending and less involvement overseas, and moderate/liberal social views, they would win in the greatest landslide in all of history.

    This is wrong, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Democratic Party and where it’s headed.

    You can’t win without the Bernie contingent. And the Bernie contingent has made it clear they will NOT vote for a moderate. They’ll stay home. But if you run a true progressive, the moderates in the party will vote for the progressive. They won’t stay home, because the moderates are pragmatists, while the progressives are idealists.

    That’s why Beto is such a powerful figure in the party. He has that Obama ability to easily reach both groups of Dem voters.

  78. 2FOR18, understands math

    I agree Biden, or any semi – normal person, would have killed Trump.

    But it was her turn.

  79. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    This basically describes Hillary to a tee.

    I could easily write a book about how F’d up I think Trump is, but Hillary is clearly a wildly corrupt incompetent. The only people that cannot see that are the people that are blinded by partisanship.
    Bill on the hand may have been a womanizer and became more corrupt later, but he was VERY competent and surrounded himself with competent people.

  80. 2FOR18, understands math

    it’s only cognitive dissonance if you can’t interpret that I explained why we can’t all get along at least as well as we did when Bush (either one) or Reagan were serving as president.

    LMAO!!! Thanks Z-man for the laugh.
    Bush was literally Hitler before Trump was literally Hitler. And Reagan was a senile nut job who caused AIDS and the crack epidemic, and was going to end the world by nuking us all.

    Some of us are old enough to remember this stuff, so stop lying by saying people were civil to each other before that evil Trump came along.

  81. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    @82

    You analysis is accurate about many democrats and the democrat party, but imo you will not win a presidential election running a socialist, an extreme leftist on other issues, or a corrupt incompetent like Hillary. That’s why you lost to a reality TV bozo that most most republicans don’t like and many republicans actively worked against before the election (and continue to do so now after the election). Even blue collar democrats jumped ship.

  82. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

    @80 +1

    It’s almost as if liberal democracy requires *some* restrictions on acceptable discourse in order to function! Like drawing the line at calling immigrants animals and putting their children into cages. But that’s just “partisan nonsense”–all “differences of opinion” are equally legitimate in a country where Fox News is the most popular news outlet!

  83. 2FOR18, understands math

    This is wrong, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Democratic Party and where it’s headed.

    You can’t win without the Bernie contingent. And the Bernie contingent has made it clear they will NOT vote for a moderate. They’ll stay home. But if you run a true progressive, the moderates in the party will vote for the progressive. They won’t stay home, because the moderates are pragmatists, while the progressives are idealists.

    You’re right, but you missed his point somewhat. If, despite the far left direction the party itself is headed, they had nominated a non Clinton semi normal person like Biden, that person would have beat Trump easily. Yes, you’re right that the party won’t nominate the Biden type in the primaries, but if they did, the Biden type would win the General.

    I can’t fix my quoting error – don’t know why…

  84. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Bush was literally Hitler before Trump was literally Hitler. And Reagan was a senile nut job who caused AIDS and the crack epidemic, and was going to end the world by nuking us all.

    Some of us are old enough to remember this stuff, so stop lying by saying people were civil to each other before that evil Trump came along.

    This is all true of course, but I think it’s WAY worse this time around. The DNC and media actively worked to get Hillary nominated, was hoping someone like Trump or Cruz got nominated by the republicans because they thought they were not electable in a general election (all in emails), thought they were guaranteed to win the election going into that night, and then somehow it all blew up in their faces. They are way more angry, frustrated, and in a state of disbelief than over any other loss and can no longer function objectively. It’s all hate and anger and the worst spin on everything.

    To me it’s all BS. The last presidential election I won was Reagan. I usually vote 3rd party or the loser.

  85. Zanzibar

    But even still, looking at their first 150 minutes in the NBA (ridiculous as it may be), the “terrible” guy had more points, rebounds, assists, and blocks than the “dominating” guy.

    I’m looking at BRef and it’s a bit hard to parse the minutes because they don’t line up. But it looks to me like Mitch had higher 2P%, fewer turnovers, more offensive rebounds, more blocks, equal dimes/steals. But what’s most relevant here is that Randolph’s minutes began to diminish after the first 10 games probably because Don Nelson realized he had the IQ of a grapefruit. Fiz, on the other hand, is impressed by how fast Mitch is learning that he’s giving him a larger role.

    So, the takeaway here is that it’s silly to base anything on summer league, or high school ball, or club league, or the cardboard boxes they hung over the doors to their rooms to shoot nerd balls through. And it’s silly to make any bold predictions after 150 minutes of bad team basketball. (I’d say let’s wait until at least Veterans Day to decide this tale-of-the-tape!:)

    Normally I would agree that we have to wait before declaring a player a future star after 145 minutes. I didn’t do that after KP’s strong start and I’m still not sure about him 3 years later. I think Mitch is the rare exception. I’ve already explained earlier that the skills which will make him a top player are very visible and look to be sustainable. It takes longer to project the future of a shot creator/scorer type. My major concern after Summer League was his BB IQ. Would he be like Amare on defense? I was hoping he’d just be average in that regard. He looks like he’s got a somewhat natural feel for the game. Sure he’s got a lot of stuff to work on but I am astonished overall where he’s at given his history.

  86. Donnie Walsh

    they would win in the greatest landslide in all of history.

    Are you speaking hyperbolically, or do you really think that a generic moderate could beat the 97.8% that Joseph C. Yates got in the NY governors race of 1822?

  87. Bruno Almeida

    It truly pains me that in 2018 people are still acting like neutrality is a thing, as if we were not partisan creatures by living in a society.

    When the “sjws” say people who gloss over Trump and don’t stand up against bigotry the same thing as the bigots themselves, all it means is that not choosing a side when one side is clearly dominating discourse and practice is the same as actively choosing the side that’s winning. So not being “partisan” is never an option, you’re just delegating the decision to the side that’s already dominating the situation.

    If you’re fine with that, well, I’m with Z-Man and Silky, I don’t want you anywhere near me but I respect your position and will even discuss it comfortably. But don’t come to me with this neutrality bs because taking yourself out of the political discussion is not a real option as long as you live in a democratic society. If I was american I would never be able to vote for Hillary with a clean conscience, but I would do it anyway since the other option is clearly worse to me. If you disagree with that it’s fine, but you are choosing a side no matter what you do.

  88. JK47

    They are way more angry, frustrated, and in a state of disbelief than over any other loss and can no longer function objectively.

    Nah, this is a load of crap.

    Trump does everything in his power to “own the libs” and piss us off, because it benefits him personally. He is intentionally tearing the country apart because “own the libs” is his core message and his supporters love that shit. I don’t think you’d see this kind of reaction if it was Mitt Romney or some such Republican in the White House. Mitt Romney at least has some fucking respect for his fellow man. Trump is just a thug.

    Try to imagine President Avenatti rubbing it in the faces of conservative America for a few years. Think about how that might go for everybody.

  89. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    @80

    Here’s one small problem with your attitude

    If I told you I was for securing the border, immigration reform, deporting illegals convicted of a felony, limited work visas etc.. would you assume I was a racist and call me one?

    If I said I would be in favor of that even if the immigrants were coming from Ireland, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Denmark etc.. then what would you think?

    I’m in favor of those things for economic, security, social service, and legal reasons. I don’t care what color people are or what language they speak etc… I never have.

    I think we have to control how many people come in so we can slowly assimilate them, find them employment, not put strains on schools, hospitals, law enforcement, not put downward pressure on wages, not take security risks etc..

    I’m no racist on this or any other issue. However, left wingers will START with the assumption of racism because they’ve been brainwashed into thinking that everyone with my views is a racist. They make people think that because they are looking for political advantage. We used to do these in sensible ways decades ago. Not any more.

  90. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Trump does everything in his power to “own the libs” and piss us off, because it benefits him personally.

    There is no doubt he likes to troll, but the anger and frustration was already there the moment he won.

  91. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Are you speaking hyperbolically, or do you really think that a generic moderate could beat the 97.8% that Joseph C. Yates got in the NY governors race of 1822?

    I was talking presidential election, but since I don’t know every result I guess it was half hyperbole (but only half).

  92. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

    @95

    I’m a left-winger, and while I think borders are generally racist in function and construction, I don’t think that everyone advocating for stronger borders is racist thereby. You could support stronger borders for a host of reasons, some racist, some not obviously so. I think you’re wrong that stronger borders are desirable, but it’s not because you’re a racist–I just think you’re wrong on the facts. You could even be wrong on the facts in a way that encourages racial disparities, and I still wouldn’t consider you racist, necessarily, since there has to be explicit animus or at the very least significant stereotyping involved for me to consider someone a bona fide racist. So take me as a counterexample to your view.

    Furthermore, I think plenty of left-wingers are like me, and if people actually talked to us and took us seriously in American discourse we’d sound plenty reasonable. Because we are. But vested American interests being what they are, I’m doubtful that will ever change short of Bernie winning the presidency (which he had the best chance of doing of *any* Dem candidate if you looked at the polls, where he absolutely wiped the floor with Trump.)

  93. Donnie Walsh

    Oh, the biggest presidential landslide in history was when an economic socialist won 523-8.

    Followed by the 2nd largest landslide in history which was when a melaomaniac carried 49 out of 50 states two years before he was effectively impeached.

    (To put it simply, moderates win moderately and extremists win extremely).

  94. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    However, left wingers will START with the assumption of racism because they’ve been brainwashed into thinking that everyone with my views is a racist.

    I’m a left-winger and I don’t think that at all. So back to the drawing board.

  95. JK47

    There is no doubt he likes to troll, but the anger and frustration was already there the moment he won.

    Yeah, uh, he was acting in the same fucking trolling way since day one of the primary. He’s immensely disrespectful and the opposite of “statesman.” He’s a YouTube comments section come to life. This is not a guy who’s gonna have much crossover appeal. You really can’t blame people for hating this fucking asshole.

    Strat, you seem like a nice guy but your takes on everything are usually terrible.

  96. Jack Bauer

    “I’m a left-winger, and while I think borders are generally racist in function and construction,”

    Borders are racist? Who makes this stuff up for you? So the whole world should be one happy land with no border separations where we all hold hands and sing kumbaya? Got it

  97. Cock Jowles, #1 Purveyor of Wanton Chuckery

    Borders are racist? Who makes this stuff up for you? So the whole world should be one happy land with no border separations where we all hold hands and sing kumbaya? Got it

    stuff the strawman

  98. 2FOR18, understands math

    When the “sjws” say people who gloss over Trump and don’t stand up against bigotry the same thing as the bigots themselves, all it means is that not choosing a side when one side is clearly dominating discourse and practice is the same as actively choosing the side that’s winning. So not being “partisan” is never an option, you’re just delegating the decision to the side that’s already dominating the situation.

    This is SJW, social signaling B.S. Look how woke I am! I am standing up against bigotry! Smell my farts everybody! All the while, calling anyone who voted a way you didn’t like a bigot. It’s comically deranged.

  99. ptmilo

    Followed by the 2nd largest landslide in history which was when a melaomaniac carried 49 out of 50 states two years before he was effectively impeached.

    This land is ruru’s land.

  100. Hubert

    Bruno it’s a binary system in which neither side represents a perfect ideal and both choices inherently demand that you ignore something that you really don’t want to. We’re all forced to navigate it.

    I will put my cards on the table and admit that my personal values align with yours and that’s what I prioritize when I vote.

    But I also know good, honest people in the financial services industry whose lives were ruined by wildly ineffective government regulations after the 2008 crisis, while everyone who actually committed a crime during that time got away scot-free. And I’ve done pro bono work with people who were just above the poverty line that lost their homes because we taxed them and raised their health insurance deductibles to provide health care coverage to the socioeconomic class directly below them. The things that a Democratic government did to them caused them to vote the way they did. They are not bad people. They do not espouse bigotry. The Dems fucked a lot of people in America, and that’s why they’ve been losing ground in every election since 2008 (until, hopefully, tomorrow).

    If you think there is no such thing as neutrality, then the logical extension of your argument is that you support the economic demise of the innocent people I mentioned above. And that, I hope, would be fucking nonsense.

  101. bidiong

    I really want to try a guy like Rand Paul for President sometime… I would love a true Libertarian but that’s never going to happen.

    Just an aside, I guess since I’m fiscally conservative and socially liberal I’m a moderate here. I have a lot of respect for the people here, even the ultra liberal of the bunch. You’re all smart dudes and I like reading your thoughts and reasoning.

  102. Bruno Almeida

    @106

    While I understand your logical extension, I would argue that it is false, Hubert, because you’re talking in terms of support. I don’t support anything you have referred to, but as you put it well, it’s a binary system in which we all have to fit in.

    The correct logical extension of my argument would be that I’d rather choose to accept the economic demise of innocent people that you describe over the materiality of the other side. Then I would agree with the logical extension of it, meaning I truly believe both sides are shit, but I’d rather take a stance and choose the side that smells less terrible, and I live with the choice and the criticism it might bring.

    What I hate is people making the same sort of choice that I did, oriented to the other side, yet acting like they didn’t make a choice at all or acting like it’s possible to be removed from the political aspects of material existence.

    And well, about the other comment, until you study not only math but logics I won’t waste my time.

  103. Donnie Walsh

    Randolph’s first 152 NBA minutes:

    56 pts; 52 rebs; 9 assists; 4 stl; 15 blocks; 17 to(!); .378 TS%; 25.3 usage.

    Robinson’s first 145 NBA minutes:

    48 pts; 34 rebs; 4 assists; 6 stl; 6 blocks; 2 to; .664 TS%; 11.1 usage.

    Obviously, there’s a ton of volatility to this sample, but neither player is clearly more dominant than the other.

    And, to be historically accurate, Randolph didn’t see his playing time diminish after his first 10 games. He was a starter in the Warriors last 16 games that year averaging over 30 minutes a game.

  104. Josh

    @106 Hubert, can you explain how the Democrats “we taxed [people who were just above the poverty line] and raised their health insurance deductibles to provide health care coverage to the socioeconomic class directly below them.” Would love to have some policy facts to go with these anecdotes.

  105. Grocer

    Biden has run several times, really badly. He’s a the definition of a bad candidate.

    If the democrats would put up a moderate candidate that was generally pro business and capitalism, in favor sensible environmental and Wall St regulation without being over the top destructive, reasonable and lawful immigration reform, controlled spending growth, lower defense spending and less involvement overseas, and moderate/liberal social views, they would win in the greatest landslide in all of history.

    What JK47 said but also. Many people think this because they, like you, think they are moderates. But there are massive differences in what people consider moderate. Our differences have grown so vast we’re not operating on remotely the same ideas. A centrist candidate won’t flame out, they won’t get far enough to even spark. There’s no constituency for it, because there’s no agreement on what the middle is.

    You don’t have to look farther than our discussions here to see that.

  106. swiftandabundant

    @ 111 – Josh, I’m super liberal and supported ObamaCare (if half heartedly) because I think we need Universal health care in this country and thought that it could eventually lead to that, but that is exactly what Obamacare did. Its pretty obvious.

    Everyone was required to buy insurance under Obamacare. If you didn’t buy it, you were penalized with a tax. That tax was a proportion of your income.

    The rates for the insurance went up or down based on how much you made. Also, if you made below a certain amount of money, you could qualify for grants from the government to offset the cost. This is how a lot of poor people were able to get insurance. But once you made a certain amount of money (and it was not much) you could not qualify for those rebates.

    If you made a lot of money, sure your monthly premium was high but hey, you’re rich and you probably had insurance through your job. But if you were working class but not poor, you absolutely got screwed by Obamacare. You had to buy insurance or else get penalized on your taxes and the insurance you could buy was unaffordable because you didn’t qualify for rebates.

    I did the math for myself and it was cheaper for me to just take the tax penalty rather than buy insurance. So that is what I did.

    Also, by requiring companies to provide insurance for any full time employees, it created an incentive for companies to not hire people full time…thus giving rise to the “gig economy” (which existed before but got worse under Obama).

    Again, I supported it but it was a total sell out to the insurance industries. I mean, those rebates were basically government money going back into the pockets of insurance companies.

    A single payer system would have been easier to comprehend and also cheaper but this is America and that’s socialist so we could have none of it even though Democrats controlled the presidency and both houses of congress. Since Republicans weren’t going to go along anyways, Dems…

  107. swiftandabundant

    I should add that I support requiring companies to provide insurance for full time employees. I supported letting kids stay on their parents plan till they were 26. I supported not denying coverage to people with preexisiting conditions. I supported A LOT of things about Obamacare but the individual mandate and the way the rebates were set up really put a lot middle class people in a bad situation.

  108. Josh

    @113 I appreciate your points, and agree with what you said. What I’m skeptical about is whether Hubert’s acquaintances are correctly attributing the cause of their lost homes. They may be right, but I’d like to understand it.

    Two reasons were given. First, their health insurance deductibles went up. If so, then they already had insurance, and they did not pay the ACA penalty. Second, their taxes went up. But Obama didn’t raise taxes on the middle class and slightly lowered them on the lower class. So I’m trying to understand the situation here.

    The reason I’m questioning it is because most people are terrible at knowing the real facts of their situation. For example, 57% of voters thought crime got worse between 2008 and 2016, even though it got significantly better.

    Again, not saying Hubert’s acquaintances are wrong, but would like an explanation. Because right now there’s a lot of people attributing things incorrectly, and we’re supposed to take them seriously even though they don’t know what they’re talking about. E.g., the made up threat of crime from illegal immigrants, even though crime is down and illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than native-born Americans.

  109. Hubert

    Josh, the individual mandate for people who previously didn’t have (read: couldn’t afford) health care coverage is a tax, per the Supreme Court decision that upheld the ACA. It raised ~$40 billion in funds to pay for the insurance of people who couldn’t afford coverage. It now costs an individual approximately $5,000 in monthly premiums with an average deductible of $4,500. Meaning some people spend $9,500 on health care before they receive any benefit. If you don’t want to pay $9,500 for nothing, the punishment is to forfeit 2.5% of your household income to the federal government. Tax credits are available to cover this, but only if you’re within 100-400% of the poverty level.

    If you’re not below the poverty level (which is ridiculously low; the government claims a man making $15,000 a year is above the poverty level, for instance), you’re shit out of luck and you have to pay. And if you needed every dime you had to get by, as many Americans do, this impact is devastating.

    And while I don’t have proof of this, it is generally accepted that these people comprise the portion of the electorate who flipped Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc.

  110. Josh

    @116 Thanks for replying. But then what was your point about their deductibles going up? They didn’t have insurance before so their deductibles didn’t go up at all.

  111. Hubert

    The reason I’m questioning it is because most people are terrible at knowing the real facts of their situation. For example, 57% of voters thought crime got worse between 2008 and 2016, even though it got significantly better.

    Again, not saying Hubert’s acquaintances are wrong, but would like an explanation. Because right now there’s a lot of people attributing things incorrectly, and we’re supposed to take them seriously even though they don’t know what they’re talking about. E.g., the made up threat of crime from illegal immigrants, even though crime is down and illegal immigrants have lower crime rates than native-born Americans.

    I’m not talking about people who spent all their money and blamed it on Obamacare. I sold my practice last year but for ten years I was a Certified Financial Planner and I’m still a fiduciary for multiple organizations. I knew all the facts of the people I worked with, it was documented by bank statements. People really got fucked by the ACA. That’s not a Fox News thing.

  112. Hubert

    But then what was your point about their deductibles going up? They didn’t have insurance before so their deductibles didn’t go up at all.

    Poor sentence structure by me. I meant to note two distinct groups of people: 1) people who had insurance whose deductibles went up $1,000 or $2,000 and 2) people who didn’t have any insurance and had to either buy it or pay the 2.5% penalty. Either way, if your finances are a house of cards, $1,000-$2,000 a year can make it all fall apart.

  113. 2FOR18, understands math

    Swift, I appreciate that you’re an honest lefty with principles, not just a team guy.

  114. Josh

    @118 You’re right that the cliff can cause real problems. As I said, I appreciate your replies and explanation on that. You’re right, it’s understandable that someone would be pissed if they lost their home because they couldn’t afford health insurance.

    But so far, your responses have not clarified your original claim that people are going bankrupt because their deductibles have increased from the health insurance they did not have before.

    Perhaps you simply didn’t express that point clearly. But I’m sensitive to this because these kind of incorrect and illogical attribution errors are endemic in our politics right now. Well, on one side of our politics.

    In addition, fixes have been proposed by Democrats to the 400% cliff. It’s not rocket science to fix this. Why can’t they get implemented? Because the GOP won’t do anything but vote to kill ACA.

    So while it’s reasonable to be mad at a bad policy, it’s basically stupid for these voters to believe that Trump and the GOP that they’ll do anything to improve their lives materially. The only change they’re willing to make is to remove the ACA tax, but the improvement to these people’s lives is incidental to the GOP’s goals. The long-term impact is that these people are without health insurance and ruled by a party that won’t do anything to help them economically. That is, again, a complete misattribution of what’s causing their problems.

  115. JK47

    Meanwhile Obamacare polls better than ever, and many GOP candidates (like McSally in AZ) are plagued by their votes to repeal it.

  116. Josh

    BTW, to be clear, it is awful that some people lost their homes. it wasn’t the intent of the law obviously but it is still a real personal tragedy for those people.

  117. djphan

    deductibles went up for those ppl because they now got coverage for things they weren’t paying for before among the other obvious reasons…. if you’re healthy and never use the doctor you don’t notice this because you’re just paying more for the same usage… but they were paying for basically no coverage … the aca ended that … and now it more closely aligns with other employer plans which basically saw no shifts in rates….

    the aca was a complicated piece of legislation… once ppl understood all the other benefits … and the fear mongering subsided… ppl realized it provided a lot of good to a lot of ppl for a reasonable price….

  118. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    I’m a left-winger, and while I think borders are generally racist in function and construction, I don’t think that everyone advocating for stronger borders is racist thereby. You could support stronger borders for a host of reasons, some racist, some not obviously so. I think you’re wrong that stronger borders are desirable, but it’s not because you’re a racist–I just think you’re wrong on the facts.

    I consider virtually this entire statement a combination of far left wing idealistic delusion and inaccuracy.

  119. Stratomatic "Is Dotson our best two-way player with Porzingis out?"

    Yeah, uh, he was acting in the same fucking trolling way since day one of the primary. He’s immensely disrespectful and the opposite of “statesman.” He’s a YouTube comments section come to life. This is not a guy who’s gonna have much crossover appeal. You really can’t blame people for hating this fucking asshole.

    Strat, you seem like a nice guy but your takes on everything are usually terrible.

    Earlier in the thread I said I know a lot of people (both blue and white collar) that voted for Trump but I’m still searching for someone that actually likes him a lot. So I obviously agree with you on his behavior.

    As usual though, you are missing the point I am making.

    I am saying the general frustration, anger, and hate some people feel over him winning has totally distorted their ability to think about anything related to him objectively. I see it every day. It’s almost a mild mental illness. To be clear, I’m not saying disliking him is a problem. I’m saying people’s perception of realty is distorted because it.

    A person can be a clown and dickhead in many ways, but an objective person should still be able to separate the good from bad they do, give them credit and blame when they actually deserve it, etc.. When you are consumed with hate, your brain can lose that ability. You will spin every bit of input in the most unfavorable light to be consistent with your thinking without realizing it.

    If Trump cured prostate cancer the media would call him a misogynist for not curing breast cancer first.

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