New York Knicks 94 – Brooklyn Nets 82 – Game Recap

I’ve started building my new Lego 1989 Batmobile. It’s made by 3306 pieces total, and I’m probably at 1700 after 6.5 hours of work. Honestly, it’s a total blast. The finished product will be so frigging huge. I couldn’t be more happy; I’m actually a grown kid, you give me food and/or games as gits and I’m the happiest person in the world.

Anyway, near the end of this day-conusming, brick-connecting romp, it dawned on us that at least two hours before we had made a mistake, putting a 4×4 plate just a bit right than where it should have been.

At that point, we had to make a choice. We could wash our hands and try to go on around that mistake (it would actually have been possible short term wise, none of the subsequent thirty so so operations – six construction manual pages – required that particular area again) or we could try and understand where we went wrong, disassemble the minimum amount of pieces required, fix the mistake, rebuild everything we disassembled and then go on to keep assembling the bat-themed behemoth.

We chose option number two. From where we are, we’re not sure it will be worth it in terms of effort spent in fixing the damn thing, but at the very least we’re positive we will be able to build the whole vehicle without any consequence.

The Knicks, winning behind the contributions of Marcus Morris and Julius Randle, are choosing option number one.

It’s possible than we won’t ever need to go around that particular area again, just as it is possible that Randle will become a foundational piece for the Knicks while Mook’s veteran leadership will rub on Knox and Barrett; it’s much more likely, though, that this type of wins will end up being more damaging than reinvigorating.

To wit:

Randle and Morris, combined: 55 points, 16 boards, 4 assists, 22/42 from the field, 6/13 from three, 5/5 from the line, +42 plus/minus, 69 minutes played.

RJ, Frank, Knox, Dotson, Mitch combined: 24 points, 25 boards, 6 assists, 9/27 from the field, 2/7 from three, 4/7 from the line, +8 plus/minus, 105 minutes played (I won’t torture you with what happens as soon as you remove Mitch from here).

Now, ok, this is pretty much an indictment of how much our young guys suck, but what should it matter that we’re winning games only because Randle and Morris can ball a bit? What’s our long time gain? Are we gunning for the 12th seed in the East and the #8/9 pick again, that yielded such good results for us in 2017 and 2018?

I can’t blame Mike Miller either. He’s a rookie interim head coach, and if he wants to prove he can stick around he has to try to win every possible game unless told otherwise, and you know as well as do I that Pills are simply starved for wins, so… it’s only fair that Miller’s leveraging what he has to gain the advantage over the foe du jour. If it means running Randle and Morris out there for 70-ish minutes per night, he should go for it. I hate it, but it’s definitely not his fault.

On the other hand, I’m not sold about his developmental coach resume. 10 games are nothing, especially in the middle of the season, but if anything every young player not named Mitch is regressing under Miller. It might be just the regular ebb and flow ways of rookie-scale contract players, but I just have the feeling they suck. Long-term wise, though, you should still give your coach a full vote of confidence to play them as much as you can. There’s literally nothing to lose apart from a few games (which would count as a win for the tank) and a chance for Miller to be a future NBA coach somewhere else, but let’s be real: how high are them anyway? Dude’s 55, and while a coaching lifer he’s never been a relevant figure. The chances of him ever becoming a real NBA coach outside of NY are slimmer than his hair on the central part of his dome. So, no blame on Miller, but Pills are screwing the team again just because they’re (understandably, but still not making sense strategically for the team) hanging on for dear life.

***

David Fizdale’s record: 4-18.
Mike Miller’s record: 4-6.

Sometimes I really wish Pills would read this board.

***

That said, I highly doubt Mike Miller is good enough to coach this sorry excuse of a roster to .400 ball for the season (and I don’t hope he is, as that would be inherently bad for lottery purposes). This game would have been a Knicks defeat 99 times out of 100. We shot 40.2% from the field, 31.0% from three and were still the best shooting team on the floor by a long mile. The Nets scored a NBA-record worst (since 1979-80) 8 two-pointers on 28 attempts for a Barrett-like 28.6% 2FG. That’s a really unprecedented level of futility. On the other hand, it’s not like the Nets’ defense was especially good, and we didn’t even reach 100 points. Let’s evaluate Miller in another 10 games.

***

It has to be said, though, that Mitch’s impact on defense was tremendous last night. His numbers won’t blow you away (a minimum-wage double double and 2 blocks) but he disrupted at least ten more possessions. In a game that ended on such a low scoring note, that’s really something. It was also good to see RJ’s being engaged on the defensive end. Also, Mitch definitely outplayed Jarrett Allen (who didn’t score a single field goal) and DeAndre Jordan.

***

Prepare for the ultimate Frank crusade: Kadeem Allen is coming. I kinda wish he’d usurp Frank’s place in the rotation as to try and light the ultimate fire under his ass. Frank’s playing like shit under Miller. And it’s not like Miller’s coaching him with the intent of benching him as soon as it’s possible. 1/5 from the floor, 1 ast, 1 steal in 14 minutes are just terrible numbers. Elfrid Payton (a solid 13, 7 and 4 for a game-high +25 +/-) looks like Rod Strickland next to Frank.

***

I think it’s time to bench RJ for a while. He’s still “contributing” somehow but honestly he needs to be playing better to earn even 20 minutes per game. Letting him play like this it just putting him at risk of indulging to his worst tendencies. His drives lack everything as of late: burst, overall speed, jumping ability, focus. His ORtg is 92. 92! For comparison’s sake, Lance Thomas has a 101 ORtg for his career. Jared Jeffries sports a 100 one. You have to go to Mardy Collins to plunge at a low enough career ORtg (88) as to not make RJ blush. Add to that the fact that his usage is 23%, and you have a very bad recipe here on your hands.

***

In the end, anyway, if you have to win games here and there winning against Brooklyn is always good. Let’s see if we can avenge last Monday’s monstrosity in the Wiz-Knicks rematch. See you!

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Farfa

Just an Italian basketball fan with an insane passion for all things Knicks (and yes, linguine Alfredo is not a real Italian dish).

129 thoughts to “New York Knicks 94 – Brooklyn Nets 82 – Game Recap”

  1. Great recap as always!

    The arguments will continue, but it just makes so much sense to me to move Frank to the two and give him some minutes there off the bench. I’d tell him just to play good D and shoot lots of threes. I wonder how much longer DSJ is going to be on the team? I’d imagine they are trying to unload him.

    Morris playing well is okay if they are really planning to trade him, but not so much if they’re thinking extend him…

  2. Is any starter shooting worse than RJ? .389 fg%, .308 3pt%, .454 ts., .549 ft%…

    I know he’s young, but that’s like Frank-level bad.

  3. Re: the Carlisle comments – I generally agree with what he is saying but it really is just all theoretical at this point. His offensive numbers are personally worse, if anything, than his career stats, and the Mavs are better offensively with him off the court.

    Mavericks on/off stats
    Luka on/KP on –> ORtg 116, DRtg 110
    Luka on/KP off –> ORtg 126.8, DRtg 110
    Luka off/KP on –> ORtg 110, DRtg 102
    Luka off/KP off –> ORtg 113.8, DRtg 109

    ie. it does not seem to me that KP is making much of a positive difference except perhaps defensively when Luka is off the court.

    How about that 126.8 ORtg with Luka on and KP off though!!?!

    Anyway, fun game last night. Anyone here surprised how friendly a whistle Dinwiddie gets?

  4. Random stat of the day: Knicks are 5-6 in games where Payton plays 20 minutes or more.

    As far as Frank goes, last night he mostly did the right things on offense – get open for a 3, beat his man off the dribble for a 12 foot jumper. Unfortunately, most of them didn’t go in. It’s pretty apparent at this point that he’s just not a good shooter.

    Defensively (supposedly his strength) Dinwiddie knew exactly what to do to bait him into fouls, I’m pretty sure all five of them were when Frank was covering him.

    Harden would shoot 40 free throws if Frank guarded him for an entire game and there was no foul limit.

  5. other things I noticed last night, first game i got to watch in a while–

    1) Brooklyn was totally psyched out by Mitch’s presence at the rim. It is crazy how much of an impact he made last night.

    2) Randle looks… good? Last 10 games TS 56.6%, 1.8 turnovers, 2.6 assists per game. A/TO 1.44 isn’t great but in november he averaged 3.1 assists and 3.1 turnovers… 3-ball likely not sustainable but he’s up to 31% now, which is not far from where he was last year when it looked like his 3 pointer was improving. Even the defense hasn’t been awful – has a DRtg of 107 over those last 10 games.

    3) I truly hope we hold on to Dotson. He seems like plays harder than everyone else, and he’s about as much a 2-way wing player as we have on this roster (not counting Morris).

  6. Is any starter shooting worse than RJ?

    Culver and Reddish are worse but they’re weaving in and out of the starting lineup. Barrett’s one of few rookies who’s started every game. Pretty crazy that RJ would have to be a 90% FT shooter to crack a .500 TS%. He has been really awful.

  7. we all want to ship out the fiz version of Randle as point forward but Miller-Randle has been quite a good player. could he actually be an asset on his team friendly contract?

  8. I think Frank struggles with some of the quick-twitch, water-bug type guards. He’s done fine against Harden and other big guards before. Another reason I think he makes sense on the wing, not PG.

  9. Great cap, Farfa. I’m mostly happy when Morris plays well because we really do need him to bring in an asset. If we don’t trade him, that will be so hilariously stupid I need to stop thinking about it because it’s making me angry. Randle…who the hell knows, honestly. I have my doubts that we’ll be able to move him, but I guess it’s not out of the question. I don’t even hate him as a long term piece, but the problem is he’ll never add value at his current price tag.

    How about that 126.8 ORtg with Luka on and KP off though!!?!

    KP’s floor spacing actually helps the Mavs even while he’s on the bench. You would know this if you had a Very High Basketball IQ.

    In all seriousness, I think Carlisle’s comments, perhaps intentionally, missed the point. I didn’t watch Inside the NBA last night so I have no idea what they were recommending. Obviously feeding Porzingis, or just about anyone else, 5+ post ups a game would be an awful idea. It’s not unreasonable, though, to want him to be able to do it in a pinch when he’s guarded by guys 6 inches to a foot shorter than him. Post ups in general are inefficient, but ideally you want your 7’3″ $158M man to be able to turn them into a value added shot when he’s being guarded by Marcus Smart. I have to imagine it hurts an offense badly when the defense knows they can switch basically whoever onto your center without having to worry about that. Maybe that’s why their numbers with him on the floor are much worse than they are with him off, despite all the value he adds by missing three pointers.

  10. We all agree that Frank is bad on offense, but watching him play his shots don’t look so awful to me. So I looked up stats comparing him DSJ and Payton. This season he’s shot three pointers as well as Payton and better than Dotson, Barrett, Ellington, Smith and Randle. At 80% free throw shooting he’s the second best free throw shooter on team after Morris. So he can actually shoot under certain circumstances. Where he gets bad is in his two point shooting. Payton and Smith are considerably better. From watching games, I think that’s because he very rarely shoots at the rim, but those guys get there much more often. Also a lot of his shots seem to be ones he takes when the offense didn’t generate anything good and he has to take the shot.

    Overall being ok at some shots and bad at others is better than being bad at all of them, which he used to be. The team never runs plays for him to score, but maybe they should try to set him up for three pointers sometimes. He wouldn’t be great, but maybe then the other team would have to defend him better and that would help other Knick players.

  11. watching him play his shots don’t look so awful to me

    Please don’t try to eyetest your way into thinking he’s a competent shooter. He is not.

    Overall being ok at some shots and bad at others is better than being bad at all of them, which he used to be.

    soft bigotry of low expectations

  12. You cherry pick statements out of context. The first statement was my motivation for looking at stats, not a statement that I thought he was good from the eye test. It’s from the stats that I concluded that his three point shooting wasn’t horrible (the actual number is 0.333).

    Your comment about bigotry was completely gratuitous. Nowhere did I suggest anything about my expectations. My only suggestion was that the team might do well to run actual plays for him to shoot three pointers. If those three pointers replace three pointers by Dotson or Barrett, the team should get more points if the shooting percentages hold up. It would also occupy the other team’s defense differently.

  13. it should be noted that any success that randle is having should be more attributed to payton and not miller… payton’s return coincided with the replacement of fiz…

  14. I’m not sure that’s totally it. Even under Fiz, Randle was starting to shoot more quickly and have less turnovers. Peyton could have helped that along of course.

  15. The Knicks don’t run plays for Frank because he can’t score. That’s how you end up running your offense through Point-Randle 30ft from the basket. Stick Frank in the corner, have him play SG. Problem solved.

    Frank Overall Shooting
    Frank takes 31% of his shots with the closest defender 6+ ft away.
    Frank takes 32.7% of his shots with the closest defender 4-6ft away.

    Frank 3pters
    He takes 26.9% of his 3pt fgs with his closest defender 6+ ft away; he hits 39.1% of those shots.
    He takes 12.9% of his threes with a defender 4-6ft away; he hits 27.3% of those shots.

    Ellington Threes
    Ellington takes 40% of his threes with a defender within 2-4ft and hits 18.5%.
    4-6ft Ellington takes 31% of his threes and hits 36%
    6+ ft Ellington takes 12.3% of his threes and hits 50% of his threes

    Frank’s shooting is a product of how little defenses care about him.

    **When I say takes his threes, the number is actually the percent of all his shots he takes that end up being both a three and with defender that far away.

  16. meanwhile i’m sort of interested in Reggie Bullock’s return. Not sure if he’ll be back in time for this trade season, but I would not be opposed to keeping him on this very-below-market contract if he is indeed healthy. 39% career from 3, supposedly at least an ok defender — you can never have enough of those.

  17. One definite plus of Miller over Fizdale is that the team is switching much, much less on D, which is very pleasing to my eye and heart. I have always hated the “switch everything” defense, and am not a big fan of a zone except in very limited circumstances. At this level, the best defenses match up and stick with assigned player and play team defense on screens with coordinated decision making whether to go over or under, whether to hedge or switch, with off-screen players sliding as necessary to help if the offensive player gets a step. One undervalued aspect is that it makes everyone play harder…it takes much more focus and concentration to go hard over a screen and chase than to simply hand your guy off to a defender that is often a mismatch.

  18. Lots of buzz over trades, I’m happy to hear Smith is named. Hey, if anyone wants to give anything of value for that turdo I’ll take it. One upside of lolknicks might be, ‘ah he sucks because lolknicks, we can fix him up’ – a first would be an extremely good haul

  19. I am all for trading DSJ, Portis – any of the vets other than Morris and Payton for picks. I’ve already stated, at least a dozen times, that I don’t think we should turn over this team once again. We need to build continuity and collect players that aren’t a complete pile of steaming dung. I don’t care if they’re 30 years old. We have to stop the churn and start collecting pieces that work well together.

    That being said, the reason I would like them traded is to promote some of the players from the G-League like Kadeem Allen, Kenny Wooten and Ivan Raab.

  20. It would be incredibly irresponsible not to trade Morris — for Pete’s sake, if they want him to come back, they can just re-sign him in the offseason. Payton I am +/- on — I just don’t think he’s bringing anything back of significant value, so I’d be fine holding onto him and forgoing the 52nd pick in the draft. Morris though? At the very least he’d prob come with the 24th pick in the draft which has some value (Zach lowe rumor of Pat Pat + Harkless + 1st for Morris). And if for whatever reason we wanted to operate as an over-the-cap team this offseason, having Harkless’s bird rights isn’t value-less – he’s a truly excellent wing defender who is at least a plausible shooter, and went to St John’s to boot.

  21. Morris is on a one year deal, there’s absolutely no reason at all to keep him unless they’re punting another offseason and intending to re-sign him, and then again he won’t re-sign for less money than he did to come here, as he rejected longer term offers to get the 1 year deal for more money.

    Keeping him would be a terrible idea in every possible scenario. You stay a terrible team when you let assets go away for nothing, or commit large contracts to players who aren’t worth it. Next summer either Morris leaves for nothing or re-signs for a lot of money, both of which are the worst possible scenarios.

  22. You don’t “stop the churn” when you’re one of the 5 worst teams in the league. Churn is good! Churn is your friend! The current players suck! If you’re watching this Knicks team and thinking that it’s a good idea to commit any resources at all to keeping the core intact you’ve got a serious masochistic streak.

  23. i liked that recap farfa…appreciate you laying stuff out like that…

    was watching a replay of the game and fell asleep in the second quarter…next thing i knew it was morning time…i enjoyed that game :)

    actually, i’ll check some of it out tonight…i was awake enough to catch mitch doing freaky mitch stuff…seems like he took the whole jarret allen versus himself chatter kind of personal and wanted to make a statement…

    it’s hard to do, especially with 51 free agents on your roster, but, i really would like to see the roster carousel slow down a bit…hold on to mitch, taj, payton, knox, RJ, frank and randall maybe – try to find homes for portis, morris, ellington, trier and DSJ…i have no idea what to do with bullock…

  24. If it’s good enough for Aroldis Chapman, who at the time of the Gleyber Torres trade was pretty much the best closer in baseball, it’s good enough for Marcus Morris. Just tell him we love him as a leader and player but that it’s best for the team (and for his enjoyment) to be traded to a contender, and that we would very much like to re-sign him this offseason. Two months of him being on another team is not going to contribute to any “churn”.

  25. I’d happily trade DSJ, but I’d want a 1s for him, ideally a top-20ish pick.

    lol good luck with that. he only has 1 year left on his rookie deal, and has been one of the worst players in the NBA.

  26. I don’t really see the motivation to trade DSJ.

    Don’t get me wrong, he stinks, but that secret is out at this point. You’re not getting a 1st for him. The league sees that he is apparently burning bridges fast at his 2nd franchise in 3 years and that every trendline you can draw through his 3 years in the league is downwards. Somebody will take a flier on him because he’s a 22-year old, very athletic, former lottery pick, but they’re going to pay flier prices to do so. Think the Mudiay trade; we’d get back a middling second round pick and maybe some sort of interesting salary flotsam (I’ve always kind of liked McDermott).

    But you know who should be in the business of taking fliers on “second draft” PGs? The Knicks! So why deal him now when we’ve ground his value down to absolutely nothing? Send him to the G league, get someone who is definitely not Kieth Smart to work with him on the jump shot and see if you can un-break him a little bit.

  27. Early Bird, your numbers are interesting and something I don’t have access too. Some of them probably suffer from
    small sample size but it still seems true what you say. But I have seem times when Frank is wide open at the three point line and the team takes contested shot instead. So I think the team could still use him a little more, even if only to make sure opponents keep someone four to six feet from him.

  28. Those numbers are on NBA.com. You should be able to access, whether or not anyone can navigate NBA.com is another question. It was a good idea based on his overall shooting numbers, and yes open Frank definitely better than contested Randle/Portis shot.

  29. More generally? I do think Frank feels more comfortable with set plays rather than reading defenses, so it may help Frank.

  30. @22 – What do you think you’re getting for Morris? A late 1st? A 2nd? Are those assets? If we bundled some players and include Morris for (and I’m not thinking it’ll happen) KAT or Westbrook or CP3 or a future unprotected 1st, OK. But if we’re getting back another DS Jr or Ellington why? A trade for the sake of a trade is a stupid trade. But that’s the Knicksy way.

    By the way, this epiphany came to me when I was talking to a friend that’s a Met’s fan. He was listing a whole lot of mediocre players (like Rick Porcello or Michael Wacha). I asked him if he thought the Yankees would go after them and his reply was “The Mets are not the Yankees”.

    So there you go. What would Brian Cashman do? He would go after the biggest star he could.

    This random “We must trade Mook” attitude is a LOSERs attitude.

    But we’re the Knicks, so losing is our thing.

  31. Thanks for the pointer. I’d certainly like to help Frank get better. Giving him some plays he work on to get down pat sounds like a good idea.

  32. I want to be sure that you do not think I was calling you a racist/xenophobic/etc. bigot. Just unintentionally bigoted against a player’s sheer incapacity while trying to praise him.

    This is the NBA. We should not be squinting this hard to see viability.

  33. @27 – If we got back a Gleyber Torres caliber player by trading Morris I would do it in a heartbeat. Nobody has that to trade. I would say DeMarcus Cousins would qualify but he’s a FA after this season. I would say John Wall, but his team isn’t going anywhere. I haven’t seen a trade that makes any sense yet.

  34. I know I’m in the minority here, but trading DSJ at the absolute nadir of his value doesn’t appeal to me. I mean yeah sure if someone is willing to do something stupid, of course trade him. I have a feeling this is a protected second rounder situation though. I’d rather see if he can do here what these other teams seem to think he might be able to do for them. I don’t feel all that strongly about it either way, so whatever.

    What do you think you’re getting for Morris? A late 1st? A 2nd? Are those assets?

    A few GMs said to Begley we can probably get at least a late-first, so yeah, you do that 100% of the time. What the hell is the benefit of not trading Morris for whatever the best offer is anyway?

  35. You don’t “stop the churn” when you’re one of the 5 worst teams in the league. Churn is good! Churn is your friend! The current players suck! If you’re watching this Knicks team and thinking that it’s a good idea to commit any resources at all to keeping the core intact you’ve got a serious masochistic streak.

    Looking about that I found this, which I think it is pretty cool.

    I would like to have more continuity in the team. I think players learn to play with their teammates and it is also easier on coaches. Obviously it is foolish to commit to a 20 win team, but at least do not shuffle your veterans every year. We are talking about shipping Randle, who is only 25, because he is too old for our “core”. I do not like the fit with Robinson, and if we get a nice haul, great! But I really do not want to see him shipped for the 27th pick in the draft just for the sake of changing the roster.

  36. @27 – If we got back a Gleyber Torres caliber player by trading Morris I would do it in a heartbeat. Nobody has that to trade. I would say DeMarcus Cousins would qualify but he’s a FA after this season. I would say John Wall, but his team isn’t going anywhere. I haven’t seen a trade that makes any sense yet.

    So you don’t want to trade Marcus Morris…unless they could trade him for the worst contract in the NBA?

    K.

  37. If we got back a Gleyber Torres caliber player by trading Morris I would do it in a heartbeat. Nobody has that to trade. I would say DeMarcus Cousins would qualify but he’s a FA after this season. I would say John Wall, but his team isn’t going anywhere. I haven’t seen a trade that makes any sense yet.

    Am I having a stroke

  38. Obviously it is foolish to commit to a 20 win team, but at least do not shuffle your veterans every year.

    The first clause was correct.

    In all seriousness, I dig continuity, too, but only when the team is good. Until the players on the team are good or at least low cost-controlled, to paraphrase the great Pete Seeger, you churn, churn, churn.

  39. Randle/Morris Wins are counterproductive and utterly pointless. This is one of the most pointless rosters in recent NBA history. It’s worth trading Morris just to get rid of the Randle/Morris Win.

  40. That continuity chart was great, though. Thanks for sharing, iserp! I love that the greatest amount of continuity that the Knicks had in the last ten seasons was when they kept 73% of the 2012-13 team and went from 54 wins to 37 wins.

    And before that was when they kept 78% of the team that won 32 games and won 29 instead.

  41. And the Knicks need to move on from DSJ ASAP. I only half believe, probably less, the “strained oblique.” Rebecca Haarlow started out her pregame report last night with, “strained oblique, no timetable,” um yeah.

  42. The problem with waiting for DSJ to get better is that I don’t think he’ll ever get better

    Dude’s game is ugly and broken in all kinds of ways. Gimme a second and call it a day

  43. I’m at a point with DSJr, that I think the opportunity cost of keeping him on the roster is not worth it. I think we have a better average outcome cycling through G League players until we hit on one.

    I’m okay taking late 1st rounders. More swings in the draft are always good. Boston built a solid roster through loads of late round picks (correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think they had too many early picks).

    Morris in the middle of a strong season and unlike the last few years a number of teams have a realistic shot at winning a championship. Teams are more likely to make small upgrade moves (AKA GSW isn’t expected to blowout everyone in the playoffs) to pursue a championship. I could see HOU, LAC, LAL, and a few others desperately chase role players.

  44. you know to be honest…it’s that sour puss he wears all the time that grates on me…be gone…it’d be a bargain to ship him out for the 60 pick in the 2099 draft…

  45. DSj right now seems toxic for the team and his game is clown material.
    I would easily trade him for a yoghurt.

  46. They have some guard in G league who’s doing well. I think his name is Lamar Peters. You need a roster spot open to bring him up and try him out. That wouldn’t be a horrible alternative to DSJ.

  47. I would easily trade him for a yoghurt.

    man, i’d be willing to foot the bill on the yogurt, if someone would just take him away…

  48. Among the mercenaries I’d be happy to keep those who play teamball and trade the iso ones.
    Morris and Randle look good statistically right now but they’re not big dogs or building blocks so i wouldn’t cry if we traded them for picks.
    Elf and Taj look more team friendly players and it would be nice to keep them but not devastating to trade them too if . . ..
    Portis,DSJ, Ellington, Bullock need to go… yesterday !

  49. After no one would claim Ellington on waivers last year when he was 31 and making $4 million, I’m sure the trade market for 32-year-old Ellington making $8 million will be robust.

  50. I think Ellington would be more valuable in absorbing a contract and a pick.

    If he did have value, he doesn’t now. We’d have to give him some run and hope he shoots well for him to have actual value.

  51. I would easily trade him for a yoghurt.

    You say that like yoghurt isn’t a good thing.

  52. Yoghurt is great ! I Love it ! Some hate it tho. It’s not universally likeable as pizza for example.
    It’s also quite affordable.
    DSJ for a sheep’s yoghurt is a pretty fair trade.

  53. Everyone still happy with KP trade even though DSJr is ridiculously bad? Remember Dallas was supposedly laughing at us when we took Frank in the draft? They probably laughed again when we traded for him. Looks like our draft picks we got from them are gonna suck too. Only way for this to turn out good is if KP gets hurt. I’m ashamed to say as a mature adult that I am rooting for him to get injured.

  54. I don’t think you can fairly judge the KP trade without knowing what Durant (or his agent) told the Knicks at the time. In a league where there are under the table deals done all the time, I find it hard to believe that even a moron like Mills would be so gung ho about the KP deal if he didn’t have assurances that Durant was coming here. Then Durant blew out his Achilles and that changed everything.

    With assurances, I thought it was a great deal. If they didn’t have assurances, then yeah, it was at best a “meh” deal. I think they had assurances myself. Durant has had, like, seven different versions of how his free agency went down since he signed with Brooklyn, so I don’t trust anything he says now.

    Even there, though, it wasn’t because Mills was good at his job, but it was because Durant decided he wanted to play here. Mills would have been awful with Durant or without Durant. Not getting Durant just highlighted how bad he is at his job.

  55. These motherfuckers spent $24M on Bobby Portis and Wayne Ellington instead of renting out cap space for picks.

    Nobody involved in that should ever be allowed to work in a front office ever again.

  56. Trying to come up with the best knicks player of the decade is a real challenge because we had almost nobody here for more than 3 seasons

  57. I still think the trade was fine, assuming we couldn’t have gotten something better if we waited. And we can’t know that information. Two mid to late 1rps and a lotto ticket (who still may yield a second) is very good for a perennially league average player, even if that wasn’t and isn’t KP’s reputation. I’m comfortable with the outcome.

  58. KP’s floor spacing actually helps the Mavs even while he’s on the bench. You would know this if you had a Very High Basketball IQ.

    I’m sort of curious as to what exactly would it take to get the KP-bashers to reconsider. The dude is clearly the second best player on a team that’s in 5th place in the Western Conference while he’s close to averaging 17 and 10 with two blocks a game at the ripe old age of 24 and coming off a major injury.

    Mike

  59. Gonna miss Eli. Lots of feel good stories coming out about how solid of a dude he is/was over the years. Average QB – 117 and 117 in regular season but big in playoffs. Never hurt. He was always there. All things considered, might have to put him in top 10 of NY athletes over last 50 years despite majority of the time being mediocre.

  60. 24M on Portis and Ellington is a shame.
    Even if we had just donated the money to philanthropic foundations instead of getting those two we would have been more benefited by improving our team’s karma.

  61. KP is garbage. Let’s see him finish a whole season.

    Two firsts and a second (DSJ) is a good enough haul for him. And Dallas will start losing more soon, although I’m for sure worried about the next couple years with Doncic. But I’m ok with two #20 picks, for instance. With a good GM, that’s two quality role players.

  62. easy E…

    2 superbowl mvps…ain’t no accident…no question LT is my favorite giant of all time…and, no doubt eli doesn’t exactly ooze charisma – still in all though, easily one of my favorite giants ever (or, at least since i started following them in ’81)…

  63. Lol Miller literally called Elfrid a “coach on the floor” and a “floor general” when he’s out there (and I’m interpreting that to mean that Frank isn’t one).

  64. I thought DSJr was a fine return until he came into this season with his reworked shot completely broken.

    @Mike
    KP is not the second best player on that team. He’s among the worst according to almost every metric.

  65. Getting anything at all for DSj would be a steal at this point (Mudiay >>>> DSj). Still happy with the KP trade. And you have to see what can be got for Morris, or Morris and filler to absorb a bad contract. Still, nobody’s proposed any possibilities that seem reasonable so far and I’ve got very low expectations of acquiring anything other than a late second or maybe a bum and a sorta prospect. Still ought to do it. Fine with holding onto Randle though. If Mitch can’t play with a paint diving four like, at all, then that’s a pretty serious problem for Mitch. And I have to imagine that there are lob opportunities going both ways for the two of them. Too soon to write that combo off as an impossibility based off Fiz being unable to work it out. Fiz failed to work out a lot of shit.

  66. According to metrics Luke Walton was the best coach ever lived in all sports during his GSW days while Kerr was out.
    According to common sense he’s a mediocre coach.

    According to my left eye KP is special.

  67. Eli’s two rings against the loathe some Pats make him a NY legend. No doubt about it.

  68. Eli could have won a 3rd. He was betrayed by some truly horrible management. Jerry Reese hit a few home runs (JPP, Odell Beckham) but struck out more than he made contact. Once the talent base Accorsi left behind was gone, his career withered on the vine and his reputation suffered from spending 6 years behind offensive lines that couldn’t give him 3 seconds to throw.

    Its just a god awful organization now. But like Owen said, they delivered 4 super bowls under previous management, including one of the best titles in NY history (over the 18-0 Pats) so it’s hard to be too upset about it.

    It’s just frustrating bc, unlike the Knicks, they’re so close to turning it around. But they consistently fail to do the one thing that would get it done. Whereas the Knicks need to do like 40 things to turn it around. If they had just lost Sunday, they would have Jones, Barkley, and Young for the next decade and that’s an incredible foundation. And to make matters worse they celebrated that win at every level.

  69. Eli’s two rings against the loathe some Pats make him a NY legend. No doubt about it.

    Being clutch and having class in every sense of the word made him a legend.

    Every big game he played in they were decided underdogs:

    8 points to GB with brett Farve in 2007 NFC Championship game on the road.

    7.5 point dogs vs the 15-1 aaron Rodgers MVP season in 2011 division game on the road.

    Played his most manly game (sacked six time and pummeled mercilessly) in the 2011 NFC championship game on the road vs the 49’ers.

    Two huge Super Bowl upset wins vs the best team and best coach ever….. both times bringing his team 82 yards with >4 minutes remaining.

    Made great clutch throws like this one down with 3 minutes left and his team behind in the shadow of his own goal line:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cXqbqMgNoE

    They were probably the best team in the league the year after the first Super Bowl ring til Plaxico shot himself in the leg…..

  70. I don’t give a damn about the NFL anymore but that win was one of the most staggering individual displays of organizational incompetence I have ever seen

  71. Yes, but I’m not sure it matters much. I think we are a better team than we were at the beginning of the season. I don’t know if it’s Miller, Payton’s return, or just all the new faces starting to click, but we’re probably going play closer to 0.350 ball (roughly the original season win prediction) for the rest of the season than 0.200 or 0.250 ball (how the season started off)

  72. Dubs winning streak is a good thing

    We should be able to count on John Collins to help the Hawks win a few games when he gets up to speed. Reddish/Hunter injuries would help enormously, too. Bottom-3 looks like a lock and the top slot is no pipe dream.

  73. The main reason we’re playing better is Miller. He’s coaching the players he has in a way that maximizes their strengths and masks their weaknesses. For example, he has his most consequential player (Randle) doing the things he does best, rather than trying to turn him into something he’s not. Miller isn’t big on platitudes, he’s just a straight-laced systemless x’s-and-o’s grinder gym rat, which is a perfect coach for this mess. There seems to be a much greater emphasis on individual accountability. I see much more sophisticated PnR play on both sides of the ball without the knee-jerk switching.

    I don’t mind seeing us lose when we get out-talented, but the gimmicky stuff that Fiz was trying to pull off and the weird minutes distribution would drive me nuts, as well as the horseshit comments he would make between games. Miller gives off the impression that he knows what he’s doing and cares about nothing but playing smart basketball with no favoritism or hidden agendas. He may not last here, but he’s got a future as a head coach of a good team.

  74. The Suns are on an almighty skid but their point differential isn’t so bad at -1.1. Morris might be handy for them, their FO ain’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, and it’d help the tank if they improved but I cannot find a way to make the money work. If you were shopping Morris, who would you call up? Say your looking for a second rounder or a marginal prospect so basically everything is on the table, what team could use Morris and is capable of making a trade without ripping their guts out?

  75. Morris is actually good, and better than I expected. I’d like to keep him. I realize that isn’t tanktastic, but we have to start accumulating good players somehow and you can’t get them all at once.

    If you want to help the Suns, you could consider trading Portis for Dedmon. The Suns want out on him so we could potentially get a sweetener in a trade for him.

  76. Morris is solid, and 30, and on a two year deal. There’s no long term lookout there, long term being ’22. If Morris fills a hole down the road, pick him up again down the road. When he’ll be finely aged, like a dried fish.

  77. @76…to add insult to injury, they handed the number two pick (chase young) to their division rivals…

    easily one of the worst wins I can ever remember any team getting…someone mentioned it when it was happening – that game circumstance is absolutely something that should have been discussed between gm and coach prior to kick off…

    trouble was, both the gm and coach knew they were probably getting fired after the season…

    so, basically every time the redskins’ chase young sacks daniel jones over the next decade or so giants fans will be reminded about that one idiotic game decision…

  78. Morris is on a 1yr contract and playing the best ball of his life. He complained about not getting paid last year. He came to the Knicks over the Spurs. He likely has one good contract left.

    He’s signing for $$$ this offseason. Pass.

  79. Dedmon is on the Kings. I’d rather see him go to the Hawks and fuck up their tank but we could trade for Dedmon and Ariza for Morris and Taj straight-up. Kings are leery of trading firsts these days, but does that cap space + improvement convince them to part with a first? They’d get a lot of flexibility for next summer.

  80. Morris is in a one year deal I thought

    Correct. I’m in the habit of thinking they’re all on those neat-o min guarantee two year deals.

  81. There is no reason to trade Morris for anything other than draft assets and/or GOOD prospects, perhaps attached to expirings or reasonable 2-year deals.

  82. some crazy good college football games today…

    I honestly have no idea what’ll happen between ohio state and clemson…ohio state should win, but, who knows…I haven’t seen clemson lose too much the last few years…

    got a feeling though that oklahoma may just upset lsu today…

  83. Hell, I would take a 2026 2nd rounder for Morris if the only alternative is letting him walk for nothing. He has no place on this team now or later.

    I don’t see why they couldnt take back a 2021 expiring and not get picks or swaps for it. I doubt that many teams looking for playoff depth will be able to absorb his contract as-is, so they might as well make ’em pay for it.

  84. The Knicks do have a few things going positively. They have cap space, draft picks and a few pieces that can be on a playoff roster. Looking back I don’t see how the Morris signing helps them at all. It’s clear that they thought he’d help them make a playoff push. With that notion gone there’s literally nothing to be gained from having him. If the Knicks were .500 now I could see extending him. As of now though, I don’t see them getting a 1st round pick. He’ll have to leave and they’ll have to be smarter with how they use their cap. The good part is that it’s over now and not after two more years of overpay. Bottom line, Knicks have no albatross contracts and haven’t traded their picks. One great player turns the franchise around.

  85. Morris is good. It’s just that he’s probably not a good value for us at the price he’ll command. It’s too bad. He’d be a nice piece going forward. If we had Luka instead of Knox would we be thinking about extending him? I imagine so…

  86. I’d rather have Fizdale losing games and developing RJ/Frank/Mitch/Knox than Miller winning games on the backs of Randle and Morris, while the young guys stagnate. What’s transpiring now is counterproductive in every way.

  87. There was one play last night when Payton screened for Knox on the baseline, Knox cut to the rim and Portis found him for a layup. That was nice. Other than that I don’t see much improvement. To me last night was about Randle getting hot and hitting everything, and the better record in the past 10 games or so is due to a soft schedule.

    The offense is still incredibly heavy on iso Randle, and the PG, Payton now, is still handing the ball off to a big at the top of the key, and Randle still dribbles from there into turnovers. Yuck.

  88. Signing vets you think can be traded if your season doesn’t work out as well as you were hoping is not a terrible idea. Like a lot of what the current admin does the problem was with the execution. Morris, who we basically stumbled into at the last minute seems to be the only one who will have any value.

  89. The main reason we’re playing better is Miller. He’s coaching the players he has in a way that maximizes their strengths and masks their weaknesses. For example, he has his most consequential player (Randle) doing the things he does best, rather than trying to turn him into something he’s not. Miller isn’t big on platitudes, he’s just a straight-laced systemless x’s-and-o’s grinder gym rat, which is a perfect coach for this mess. There seems to be a much greater emphasis on individual accountability. I see much more sophisticated PnR play on both sides of the ball without the knee-jerk switching.

    I don’t mind seeing us lose when we get out-talented, but the gimmicky stuff that Fiz was trying to pull off and the weird minutes distribution would drive me nuts, as well as the horseshit comments he would make between games. Miller gives off the impression that he knows what he’s doing and cares about nothing but playing smart basketball with no favoritism or hidden agendas. He may not last here, but he’s got a future as a head coach of a good team.

    Other than the bit about dropping the knee-jerk switching, this is some Stratomatic-on-Porzinigis-level world building. Steve Mills would be proud that there are people who think this. This is why he waited to fire fiz until the schedule turned and Payton came back.

    The stuff with Randle is accurate but more likely attributable to Payton. When Frank is your PG, players have to put themselves in positions they shouldn’t be.

    Everything else is either fantasy and conjecture or undeniably false. How is Mike Miller holding individuals accountable moreso or differently than Fizdale? What makes him a bigger gym rat? We’re rotating three point guards in every game; isn’t that a weird minutes distribution? And why are we still playing three bigs in a league that went small 12 years ago if not because of favoritism and a front-office agenda to play all the bums these guys handed contracts to?

  90. who knows, maybe randall can be a true number one option, maybe elf can learn to shoot and be a starting point guard, maybe we trade morris away for a late teens 1st round pick, maybe RJ learns to shoot…maybe knox finally grows into his size 33 kicks and finally gets put at the 4…maybe mike miller is the next nick nurse/quinn synder…

    we got a mitch, whom seems to have figured some things out…

    it’s a weird world, anything can happen…the 8th seed in the east is most definitely doable…

    wouldn’t that be an endless stream of joy for so many :)

  91. RJB is really worrying. This guy was a top 3 pick. They’ve got to get him going.

    Mitch seems okay, and there’s still some small hope that Frank or Knox could be useful off the bench (but only if the Knicks recognize them as a 2 and 4 respectively, not as a 1 and 3, where both are ill suited to be successful).

    If DSJ is really off sulking again, yeah, cut bait. I’d be very pleasantly surprised if they can get a 2nd rounder for him. FWIW, I’d let him be the main backup PG and play with Frank at the 2. Give both of them about 16 min. or so per game and see what happens. Tank on!

  92. Signing vets you think can be traded if your season doesn’t work out as well as you were hoping is not a terrible idea. Like a lot of what the current admin does the problem was with the execution. Morris, who we basically stumbled into at the last minute seems to be the only one who will have any value.

    Yeah, it is important to note that their moronic strategy of rushing to lock in each of the mediocre veterans to spend their entire cap space on Day 1 of free agency specifically kept them from getting Morris in the first place. It was only because one of the guys they signed failed his physical that they were even able to get Morris and, shockingly, what made them appealing to Morris was that they were the only team still with cap space. It’s almost as if holding cap space open instead of tying it up with a boatload of mediocre free agents would have been a better plan.

  93. Barrett was a terrible shooter in college and he’s a terrible shooter now. No one should be surprised by this.

  94. The Morris signing was about extracting some revenge on the Spurs. I’d take anything of value back for him, just curious what folks think is actually possible. 2026 second rounder is probably in the ballpark.

  95. while the young guys stagnate

    I know I shouldn’t engage, but who the fuck is stagnating? And, probably should add, Miller has a better claim as a development coach than Fiz does. And, should also add, Smart would still be around fucking up- sorry, “reworking” their shots if Fiz was still here. You can take the minor positives and still be pissed about the overall.

  96. I’d take anything of value back for him, just curious what folks think is actually possible. 2026 second rounder is probably in the ballpark

    For Morris a future first rounder is definitely in the ballpark. The question is if these morons want to trade him and what these morons want in return.

  97. If Mills is trying to save his ( and Perry’s) jobs, trades will depend on what he thinks Dolan wants. Does Dolan want progress in the form of a more competitive team now, or to hew towards a full rebuild. If it is the latter, it is incumbent on Pills to extract maximum future asset value for Morris. As the trade market seems at this time to be unripe, we probably will have to wait and see.

  98. A future first for a 1/2 year rental of a guy that’ll likely be whoever’s fourth best player? Teams seem to value 1sts more than that.

  99. Mrs. Z-man just handed me a bottle of Lagavulin 16 as a belated xmas present. Doesn’t get better than that!

  100. @108
    Agreed , with this wrinkle, if a GM perceives that Morris can vault his team to serious contention, he may ( ala Theo Epstein/Gleybar*) overpay. Whether Morris is perceived as such is another issue. It also depends on the actions of teams also jockeying for chip positioning and injuries.

    * Obvious no comparison between Chapman and Morris.

  101. At least They didn’t trade 4 PFs during the 1st day of the trade season for a cup of coffee and a spoon of sugar.
    That’s positive.
    They seem patient.
    (Or unable to trade)

  102. A future first for a 1/2 year rental of a guy that’ll likely be whoever’s fourth best player? Teams seem to value 1sts more than that.

    George Hill got two firsts just last season. Granted, it was for the full season, but still. 2017 saw a bunch of guys return first round picks in half season deal (Lou Williams, Nerlens Noel and Bojan Bogdanovic). Mason Plumlee got a first and Nurkic!

  103. Also, remember, while Morris doesn’t have traditional Bird Rights, the fact that the Knicks gave him $15 million creates a scenario where even the the lowest level of Bird Rights has some value to him. Teams have the right to retain any player for four years at 120% of his current salary. So capped out teams could still afford to keep Morris if he’d take $72 million for four years from a good team.

  104. Other than the bit about dropping the knee-jerk switching, this is some Stratomatic-on-Porzinigis-level world building. Steve Mills would be proud that there are people who think this. This is why he waited to fire fiz until the schedule turned and Payton came back.

    Hubert, you spout more unfounded (and often pointless) conspiracy theory bullshit than Trump, Giuliani and Devin Nunes combined. Your response is so shallow and stupid that I won’t even take the time to dignify it.

  105. never thought I’d say this, but, morris is starting to grow on me…we should most definitely keep him…

    shoot, if we keep winning at a 40 percent clip we could be sitting pretty as the 9th or 10th seed in the conference in a few short months…

  106. Randle could still conceivably be part of our future going forward. We shouldn’t let a third of a season of poor play under Fizdale on a new team freak us out and make us want to trade him this season. There is more time to figure out if he’s worth it or not and his value could be even more next season if we did want to trade him.

    And just because Randle and Morris have a good game and we win doesn’t mean it was a bad win or that the younger players are being stymied in their development.

    Mitch is playing better since Miller took over. More in control and fouling less. That’s the key for him right now and he’s doing that.

    RJ is going through a rough patch but that’s to be expected. He is a rookie, after all. And he’s still getting PLENTY of minutes.

    Knox has also played better since Miller took over. His defense has gotten better.

    Frank has moved to back up PG but honestly that is probably the best spot for him on this team right now considering where he is developmentally. His minutes haven’t gone down that much either.

    Dotson is playing a bit more too.

    DSJ is a lost cause but that is hardly in Miller. Been that way all season.

    If it were me, I’d look to move DSJ for whatever right now and wait and see on Morris. I’d ultimately move Morris in the next few weeks but I think we can get a decent haul for him so let’s see what’s out there. I’d move Ellington too if anyone would want him.

    Payton, Taj, and Randle should all remain for next season.

  107. I think RJ Barrett’s issue at the moment is how frequently he is frozen out of the offense by the bigs. Morris, Randle, and Portis are all some level of ballhog and they never move it to RJ who is normally in good position. RJ Barrett’s poor shooting is on him, for sure. At the same time, this is a guy who dominated the ball playing next to Zion Williamson and now he’s getting frozen out of the offense by Julius Randle?

    The coaching staff needs to prioritize his development. Winning 31 games is nowhere near as impressive as getting real growth out of Mitch and RJ.

  108. I think blaming Barrett’s play on Randle and Morris is a little much. The kid has played poorly no matter who he has played with.

  109. just checked in on the lsu/oklahoma game…thank goodness I don’t gamble…

    I’ve been watching Louisville v UK with a guy who took the under. LSU has got to pull their entire first team for the third, right? :D

  110. RJ literally just had his best game as a pro not even 5 games ago. Kid can’t shoot and that is the main reason he’s struggling. Blaming it on Morris and Randlemis laughable.

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