New York Knicks 113 – Milwaukee Bucks 124 – Game Recap

Another feel-good loss for our Knicks! We are 1-3 and I didn’t feel this good about the direction of the team since… maybe the pre-Melo half of 2010-11? We keep piling close losses – this one was waaaaay closer than it looks – while playing young guys and having a solid rotation in place. Our coach might not be an offensive genius, but looks like he has what it takes to mold this team. I’m having a lot of fun in watching games this year, and it feels strangely intoxicating rooting for losses. There’s nowhere to go but upwards!

The good:

– Trey Burke (19 pts, 5 rebs, 4 ast, +5 +/-) was instrumental in getting back into the game in the third quarter, hitting some tough layups and being a pest off the dribble. He was badly exposed in the first quarter, as was the entire Knicks defense. The main problem with Burke is his size and build, which coupled with his defective natural defensive instincts make him a liability everytime we go up against a tall and strong team. Bledsoe is definitely not the tallest PG out there, but he’s built like a truck and that’s a problem for Trey. I guess Fiz got the memo about it, because he didn’t play a single minute in the final quarter. Still, a very effective game for Trey.

– Noah Vonleh (11 pts, 5 rebs, 1 ast, -8 +/-) is quickly becoming a fan favorite. His energy is contagious, and he’s playing consistently within his limitations. That allows him to play a paltry amount of minutes, injecting the team with much needed vigor at times. His defense is quite shaky, but it never hurts to have a big body banging down low. The only issue I had with him (and every other Knicks out there not named Dotson, to be fair) is that he was a little soft on the defensive glass, allowing Giannis and co. to feast on the offensive boards all night long, which is definitely no bueno and, in the end, what kept the Knicks from winning this game. Only Knick to shoot better than 50% from the field. Only Knick to shoot more than 2 FTs.

– Mario Hezonja (18 pts, 4 rebs, 3 ast, -14 +/-) played an interesting game, hitting shots from all over the court and looking uncharacteristically spirited throughout the game. He made the most of the opportunity bestowed on him after Knox ankle got twisted, and will probably be a major part of the rotation in the next few games. If what he needs to breed confidence is the trust of the coaching staff, this might be a turning point in his season.

– Damyean Dotson (14 pts, 8 rebs, 2 stl, -8 +/-) was the only Knicks who really cared for the defensive caroms, notching a second-best 8 for the team. Watching the game it looked like he couldn’t miss a shot, while looking at the box score it shows that he shot 13 times and missed 8. I must have a very selective memory that makes me remember only THJ missed shots and Damyean made ones. Anyway, he’s the other Knick who benefited from the open window in playing time caused by Knox absence, getting on the court for 33 minutes and looking the part. I sincerely hope he keeps at least a spot on the rotation even after Knox returns. We need to know how much he can be useful to the team going forward.

The meh:

– Frank Ntilikina (5 pts, 1 reb, 5 ast, -6 +/-) is starting to worry me a little bit. Now, he didn’t really have a bad game, hence the “meh” section, and his defensive stance, positioning and effort were always nice, but I don’t know how much his playing time can be in the high 30s if he keeps being this tentative on offense. I still believe part of the problem is the composition of the starting lineup – we’ll get to that later – but there are times when Frank is visibly shying away from the ball, and that’s quite inexcusable for a seemingly very smart 20 year old lottery pick. Ron Baker’s head getting hit by an errant Vonleh’s elbow opened some playing time for Frank at the PG in the second half, and while he notched 5 assists, proving that his passing game is good if basic, he never attacked the rim from the dribble, and in the fourth quarter it really looked like he was actively running away from the guys in blue and orange who had the ball in their hands. Not a “bad” game, but we need to see more from him if he wants to be a cardinal part of the rotation.

– Lance Thomas (4 pts, 4 rebs. a whole lot of nothing else, +6 +/-) had his usual transparent game, but luckily saw only 18 minutes of playing time, which in the long run are still 18 minutes too much. I think he is the main culprit (or better yet, the combo Lance + THJ) for our usual slow starts in the first quarter, since he’s such an offensive liability that his man is always sagging off, clogging the lane. This, coupled with the tentativeness of Frank and the boneheadedness of Timmy, make our starting lineup a very predictable unit. I suggest again that Fiz changes something, even if I know that won’t happen soon, especially with Knox out.

Fun-sized bits:

– Enes Kanter had his fourth straight double double (14 pts, 13 rebs) to open the season, but this one came with no substance at all. He got crushed on the boards when it mattered most and wasn’t able to push around anyone. His energy level looked a lot lower than in previous games.

– Ron Baker has a penchant to hurt his face. At least this time was much less violent that last year’s impact with AD. Anyway, he was able to post a plus minus of -5 in just one minute of play. By the way, he’s the third Knick in four games to go down with an injury with just a little more than one minute of playing time (Mitch in the first, Knox in the third). Freaky.

– Allonzo Trier was quiet tonight but is always a competent cog in the rotation. For an undrafted guy, he certainly deserves a spot on an NBA roster.

– Ah, Timmy. Another 20+ pts game, another mediocre overall performance (24 pts on 23 shots, -25 +/-, 140 Drtg). We can appreciate the fact that he can score, and we certainly need someone who can put up points in a hurry, but his season for now has the distinguished smell of “usage soaking placeholder with middling efficiency” (54% TS, 31% USG). His shot distribution can be improved (28% of his shots come from 10ft to 3pt range territory), and while his WS is better than the eye-test might suggest at .113 the sample size is still too small to rely on numbers to evaluate his game. I wish Fiz would do something to make the ball move a little more on offense, even just implementing more PnR actions on a daily basis.

– Speaking of PnR, shout out to Mario for trying to initiate the high PnR very often.

– The Knicks got outrebounded 55 to 43, with 19 of those 55 coming on the offensive end. This will be a glaring issue against a lot of teams in the NBA, and that’s good, we need losses. But that’s also bad, we need to develop guys who can hold their own on the boards.

Well, we couldn’t expect to win this game, especially with Middleton going nova from 3 and Giannis doing his usual Godzilla impression, so I think we managed pretty well.

See you on Wednesday against the Heat! Don’t know why but I sense a win is coming. Great fun recapping this team this year!

 

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Farfa

Just an Italian basketball fan with an insane passion for all things Knicks (and yes, linguine Alfredo is not a real Italian dish).

184 thoughts to “New York Knicks 113 – Milwaukee Bucks 124 – Game Recap”

  1. Our coach might not be an offensive genius

    This is the thing I’m curious about, despite loving the Fizdale regime so far. It’s four games in. This is an incredibly young team, and all of our returning players basically got no coaching at all under the Hornacek regime. Fizdale has very candidly said that in training camp, he opted to focus on defense and conditioning while leaving the offense for another time. The results so far have proven the wisdom of that, as sheer hustle has been the main thing keeping us in all these games (and allowing us to blow out the undermanned Hawks). But our offense is very iso-dependent. (This is also in contrast to the preseason, where he had a rule about players — other than Trier — having to pass the ball within a few seconds of getting it.) We can forgive Fiz for not being able to tackle every problem on the team at once, and most of the guys on the roster are more comfortable going one-on-one (or else are unselfish to a fault, like Frank and Vonleh). But at some point, I want to see this modern offense Fizdale promised, akin to what the (admittedly much more talented) Bucks were running last night under the coach we opted not to hire.

  2. It’s funny, I think back to 2011-12 as the last time I was really optimistic about the Knicks, but Z-man noted (and you did here, too) that it was really the first half of the 2010-11 season and I think that that is more accurate. So yes, this is the most optimistic I’ve felt about the Knicks since the first half of the 2010-11 season.

  3. Also, it’s shocking how freakin’ simple it is to give a team optimism. Just do an actual rebuild. Holy fuck, how hard is it to just do a real rebuild?

  4. @1

    Yeah, that was why I used “might”. I’m digging Fizdale nonetheless, the team is blending just fine and no-one seems disappointed in the number of touches they get or minutes they play. It’s still early, but there’s no bad vibe whatsoever around this team, and that in itself is the foundation of a great coaching job.

  5. These fake comebacks feel so much different than the fake comebacks of previous regimes, Brian. It’s not just that the guys in charge seem to understand that it’s okay for us to lose so long as the young players are developed. It’s that we have a lot of young players who are developing. This is, indeed, the first time we’ve had the makings of a sustainable foundation since Amare joined the Gallo/Chandler/Fields group. We’re not ready to win yet (and are better off this year not winning very much), but you can see how we would be with another piece or two. Hell, we probably win last night with a healthy KP, whose shot-blocking would have dramatically changed how the Bucks attacked the basket. Until Robinson’s ready for rotation minutes, we have virtually no interior defense. It’s a miracle we’ve played as well as we have on that end.

  6. @3

    Especially since this fanbase is so used to losing. If we were the Spurs, I might get it. But we spent the vast majority of the third millennium with losing records. It’s the easiest place in the universe to do an actual rebuild!

  7. how hard is it to just do a real rebuild?

    If they couldn’t even sell opening night it’s sadly pretty difficult. I guess we’ll see the numbers after 10 home games.

  8. I don’t like our starting lineup. We get into a quick 10 point hole in the 1st quarter every game.

    The problems are fairly obvious.

    1. The backcourt of Burke/Hardaway is too poor defensively to have Kanter as the last line of defense.

    2. The combination of Frank/Thomas sacrifices too much offensively trying get some defense out there to compensate for the other three.

    The solution is putting Porzingis at PF in place of Lance and Frank at either PG or SG in place of Burke or Hardaway. Since KP isn’t coming back any time soon and we have mostly all one-way or bad players, I’m not sure what the answer is.

    I think I’d put Frank at PG to improve the backcourt defense and Dotson at PF because he’s the only other two-way player on the team besides KP. He’s undersized at PF, but one of his positive attributes is that he’s a good rebounder. So at least we won’t sacrifice too much in that area.

    Dotson was disappointing in summer league, but he has looked good since. I think we should start Dotson both on the merits and because it makes sense strategically. He can play.

  9. If they couldn’t even sell opening night it’s sadly pretty difficult.

    Early season ticket sales are more a reflection of the previous season — or previous few, in this team’s case — than in the actual on-court product. It takes fans a while to recognize there’s finally something fun worth seeing, even if the odds of victory aren’t great. IIRC, the 2017 Yankees didn’t have great attendance through the first few months of the season because fans had been worn down by the rampant mediocrity of the seasons before it. Once everybody realized that Aaron Judge had become Aaron Judge, Severino was dealing, etc., they started to turn out in much greater numbers.

    The difference, of course, is that those Yankees were young and also winning, but I do believe that the grit the Knicks have demonstrated so far will translate into sales soon. The team under Phil et al was just so damn depressing to watch.

  10. Yeah, the start of the 2010-11 season was definitely the high point for Team Optimism. Then the Melo trade happened and, well, you know.

    And then we signed Chandler and Kidd, and Team Optimism went on a tear in 2012-13. It even had it’s own catch phrase: “It’s a good time to be a Knicks fan”.

    I guess all good memories have been purged.

  11. PS the Bucks are maybe one more shooter away from being a threat to the Celts and Raptors.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ydcrnt3g
    or
    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y82fvy4u

    THJ for Snell, Dellavedova or DeVincenzo, and a protected first.

    Knicks get a future pick and about $7-9M space in 2 years.

    or

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yajvq3dl

    THJ for Meeks, DeVincenzo, and Della + 2nd rounder

    Knicks get 2nd, DeVinc + $5M off the cap this summer, and $10M the summer after. Dumps Meeks & Della. DeVinc & Trier & Dotson & Frank soak up SG minutes.

  12. I think I’d put Frank at PG to improve the backcourt defense and Dotson at PF because he’s the only other two-way player on the team besides KP. He’s undersized at PF, but one of his positive attributes is that he’s a good rebounder. So at least we won’t sacrifice too much in that area.

    You still need another starter, since Frank is already starting at small forward. I might try one of these two:

    C: Kanter
    PF: Hezonja
    SF: Dotson
    SG: Hardaway
    PG: Frank

    or

    C: Kanter
    PF: Vonleh
    SF: Dotson
    SG: Hardaway
    PG: Frank

    Frank keeps us from being abused by every starting PG in the league, and he plays with enough scorers in either lineup to allow him to focus on the passing that’s his best offensive trait. I’d probably opt for the Hezonja group to maximize the number of guys he can pass to (Vonleh’s useless as a scorer except right around the basket, and not even then all the time), but Vonleh’s screening is terrific, as is his pursuit of offensive rebounds. Burke becomes instant offense off the bench, and you ride whichever of him or Trier is having the hot shooting night. Lance can wave a towel.

  13. “usage soaking placeholder with middling efficiency”

    I hear this is plastered all over the internal wall of MSG, much like “Trust the Process” was in Philly.

  14. Yeah, 2012-13 was the best year to be happy in the moment, but it was pretty clear that it was going to end soon. Nobody could have foreseen the Bargnani trade, but that team was so old it couldn’t last. That was like the perfect summer fling: amazing, exciting, getting you high on endorphines on a daily basis but ultimately you couldn’t build anything on that and you knew it.

    This is a team that, well, who knows, we just went out for a couple dates, but I can see myself with it in 4 years, happy and with children.

  15. @12

    I think you can’t start Hezonja. He’s the one that scares me the most in terms of locker room mood. I fear he might ruin it, given that he has done zilch to deserve a starting spot.

  16. I think you can’t start Hezonja. He’s the one that scares me the most in terms of locker room mood. I fear he might ruin it, given that he has done zilch to deserve a starting spot.

    I hear that. If Knox were healthy, he’d be the obvious choice to play PF. I’m just looking to maximize the offensive firepower around Frank, but I also think Vonleh makes some sense for pick-and-roll action. (My main criticism of Fizdale’s offensive coaching so far is that we’re running so little PNR, despite Frank and Kanter both being very good at it.)

  17. C: Kanter
    PF: Hezonja
    SF: Dotson
    SG: Hardaway
    PG: Frank

    or

    C: Kanter
    PF: Vonleh
    SF: Dotson
    SG: Hardaway
    PG: Frank

    This is the problem when your team sucks. :-)

    I like Vonleh, but I’m not sure I like him with Kanter. Neither provides much space and both have the positive of being very good rebounders. I think we’d reduce their value playing them together.

    I don’t like Hezonja defensively and he’s not much to write about offensively yet either. He has some innate talent handling the ball, getting his own shot, and getting to the rim, but he just doesn’t finish well enough and takes some bad shots.

    Maybe we have to suffer through Burke/Hardaway and put Dotson in Lance’s spot just to get a little more punch in the lineup???

    Maybe the solution is Burke, Lee, Frank, Dotson, and Kanter. That won’t happen though because they won’t make Hardaway the 6th man and all hell would break loose on this forum if Lee started. :-)

    I guess what I’m getting at besides our poor starts in every game is that I think Dotson “may” be one of our best two-way players. I’d like to give him a chance to prove it.

  18. Do you think the Knicks front office actually wants to trade Hardaway? I genuinely believe they view him as a solid piece of the foundation. They’re wrong, but I think that’s what they think.

    If they actually want to trade him, I maintain that you can move him to Sacramento this year for expiring contracts any time. And if he’s averaging 22ppg, you might even be able to get a pair of 2nds from them. Reminder: they offered Zach Lavine 4 years, $80mm. Hardaway, even with the trade kicker, is 3 years, $60mm. They clearly want a young, offensive minded shooting guard now, and don’t care if he’s an incomplete player. LaVine is 23 v Timmy 26, but they know they’re beggars, not choosers.

    FYI if you manage to move Hardaway and Lee, you have enough cap space to max Durant and have $29.5mm left over, which I wouldn’t mind offering to Kemba Walker at that point. Starting 5: Walker, Frank, Durant, Porzingis, our 2019 pick. Bench: Burke, Trier, Knox, Robinson. Not bad for team optimism.

  19. And then we signed Chandler and Kidd, and Team Optimism went on a tear in 2012-13. It even had it’s own catch phrase: “It’s a good time to be a Knicks fan”.

    I guess all good memories have been purged.

    As Farfa noted, we all had fun in the season itself, but I also remember very clearly that we all knew that it was the best that that team was going to get. I remember a big debate then was which teams should have the best odds of winning a title within the next five years (from that point in time), and I thought that the Knicks should be higher on the list because they were one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference at that specific moment, which I thought should merit them being high on the list, even though I acknowledged that they were bound to fall apart soon due to how veteran-heavy the team was. So the optimism for the future wasn’t nearly as high as it was early in 2010-11.

  20. I had this to say about the Vonleh signing, so my eye test may have worked in this case:

    2FOR18, understands math
    July 24, 2018 at 6:38 pm
    I just saw the signing.
    With the caveat that I have not looked at the numbers, I like it. He passed the dreaded eye test for me when I saw him play. I recall one game where he manhandled poor KP so bad I felt sorry for him.

  21. > Yeah, 2012-13 was the best year to be happy in the moment, but it was pretty clear that it was going to end soon. Nobody could have foreseen the Bargnani trade, but that team was so old it couldn’t last.

    Yeah but a lot of the old people were bench folk: Camby, ‘Sheed, Kidd, Q-Rich, and Kurt. Yes the team needed a big man, but they could have not traded for Bargnani and their starting lineup would have been still:
    Felton
    JR
    Novak
    Melo
    Tyson

    With a bench of: THJ (drafted that year), Aldrich, Copeland, Shump, Pablo. Yes you’re screwed when Tyson goes down for 30 games, but it’s still a decent lineup. Better than what they put on the floor that year. (Bargnani? Metta? Benoh?)

    Even then Tyson is good for another 2 years. It was clear that Tyson was the right complement to Melo (and that Bargnani was the antithesis of what you want next to Anthony). If you’re tied to Carmelo, then you stick with Chandler as well.

    But you know Phil had us goink in the right direction.

  22. > I genuinely believe they view him as a solid piece of the foundation. They’re wrong, but I think that’s what they think.

    People ask me if I’m still writing articles, and I tell them infrequently. They ask why, and I say it’s the same thing all over again. You can take those sentences you wrote, and apply it to every season from 2004 to now.

    > FYI if you manage to move Hardaway and Lee, you have enough cap space to max Durant and have $29.5mm left over, which I wouldn’t mind offering to Kemba Walker at that point. Starting 5: Walker, Frank, Durant, Porzingis, our 2019 pick. Bench: Burke, Trier, Knox, Robinson. Not bad for team optimism.

    Hubert for GM!

  23. @22

    Ouch, Novak as our SF would be very painful, but I agree, that’s probably a 46-48 win team. Still, what I love now is the direction. That team was doomed to trend down, while this could (just could) be the first step of the process that nets us a good team, with a competent coach.

  24. I would guess the FO is 2/3 of the way in on Hardaway. As in they view him as a good third or fourth option on a team with KP, a big free agent and another high draft pick. But if they can’t move Lee, and they’re really intent on maximizing cap space for next summer, I think they’d move him if the opportunity arose.

  25. If you’re tied to Carmelo, then you stick with Chandler as well.

    Chandler had a bit of an injury history, was getting up there, was hurt, and played subpar in his final year for the Knicks. There was some reason to think he was beginning the inevitable decline that prompted the Mavs to break up the championship team with him and Kidd. Phil made the decision to break that team up and get rid of all the malcontents and non triangle players. Chandler asked to be traded because he didn’t want to be part of a rebuild given Dallas wanted him back. Of course, that’s quite ironic because he wound up with the Suns. Chandler was a great fit with Melo, but they probably both should have been sent packing.

  26. I remember 2012-13 a little differently. The majority of that team was in its athletic prime. Melo, Chandler, Felton, Smith, Novak, and Copeland were between 27-30. Shump was 22. We rotated veteran minimum bigs (Wallace > Camby > Thomas > Martin) in a way that could have continued forever.

    Kidd was the one valuable old guy we knew we’d have to replace. But I don’t recall a sense of impending doom surrounding the team because he was on his last legs. We had the ammo to replace him, but we opted to trade for Bargnani instead of Lowry.

    Really the thing that derailed us even more than the Melo trade was the internal strategy to go big when we had the perfect personnel for small ball. A core of Lowry-JR-Melo-Chandler surrounded by Copeland, Novak, Shumpert, and a rotating cast of MLE Free Agents and veteran minimum pickups would have had a decent run.

  27. @28

    Yeah, not really a sense of impending doom. Just a sense that we were very close to our ceiling, and we weren’t going to be a contender any soon. That, to me, was not a good way to plan ahead.

  28. @7 & @9
    Good point and counterpoint, FWIW I was shocked that they didn’t sellout the home opener no matter what.
    I haven’t seen attendance records for the rebuilding Rangers but I think they could have the same problem (despite having a more rabid and loyal fanbase).

    THJ played a terrible game yesterday even if he lead the team in scoring (-25 +/- as the great Farfa pointed out), inexistent D, forced and selfish shots.
    Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, the starting five with LT and Frank is unsustainable on offense but yesterday other players could have carried the burden and at least give us some effort on D (Dotson, Trier).

    It’s way too early to talk trades, usually (with little exceptions) nothing moves until the end of december because after december 15 you could trade players signed in the summer, but I like Mike’s proposals.

    It’ ll be really nice to be able to trade THJ but I’m not sure the FO want to do that.

    I’m really disappointed by Frank, when he shakes off his mental restraints he shows flashes of competent O but he’s way too timid,
    I’d rather have him a 6-15 night that a ghost impersonation like last night, Fiz must really work on this.

    Sometime numbers are fun, we’re 1-3 with +1.0 in point differential, looking from the outside we’re underachieving :-)

  29. The problem with the offense is that we don’t have a legit starting NBA PG who can penetrate and set up his teammates, coupled with the fact that most of the other players are black holes. That’s the next step in the rebuilding process.

    +100 re: everyone’s comments about losing with young guys rather than the Beasleys and Lees and Jacks of the world.

  30. Hey Mike/Brian, why are the time stamps for comments all from roughly 15 minutes after when the comment was made? I’m typing this at 10:52 am, and comment 31 is listed as being posted at 11:08 am.

  31. @ 29 – Fair. But let’s be real, we were all optimistic AF that year. IIRC, Jowles even bet the over. That was definitely the high point for Team Optimism. The Melo trade sucked, but if we’re charting Knickerblogger optimism like a stock, the inflection point is the Bargnani trade.

    Not only did we lost optimism, we lost posters. 60% of the blog participants from that year probably don’t even watch basketball anymore let alone comment here. That trade was a flaming train wreck. And then Phil came and poured gasoline on the flaming wreck. And now Mills+Perry+Fiz are slowly but surely putting out the fire, which is allowing for optimism to come back a little.

    Seriously, all I need is for someone to try to put out a fire with a fire extinguisher instead of with gasoline and I’m happy.

  32. I’m under the impression that sometimes our PGs (or pseudo PGs) are too intent in running the plays, or play within the plan.

    Burke in particular, but even Frank, often get free on PnR but doesn’t go up for the jumper (as Lillard, Iriving, Curry, Lowry, Harden and others do), he creates space on the defender but pumps the ball waiting for the others to set in.

    Shoot the fucking ball if you’re free!

    Being aggressive changes all the plans for the other teams, creating space in a “natural” way.

    (This is a thing that Young & Doncic do well already)

  33. Hey Mike/Brian, why are the time stamps for comments all from roughly 15 minutes after when the comment was made? I’m typing this at 10:52 am, and comment 31 is listed as being posted at 11:08 am.

    No idea, but it’s been this way for a long time.

  34. That team was doomed to trend down, while this could (just could) be the first step of the process that nets us a good team, with a competent coach.

    Oh agreed. You can see the difference when you build the team around a 28 year old scorer vs what we have now (a bunch of young guys). With Carmelo his flaws were huge, so you needed a strong defensive center and guard/wing to pair him with. Additionally he wasn’t an elite scorer (sorry Ruru) so you needed efficient scorers around him. Tyson checked a lot of those boxes.

    It’s so much different building up, because you have a lot more flexibility. Granted the floor is lower (if Porzingis can’t play, you’re starting from near-scratch again), but then again the ceiling is much higher. This team is more fun to watch and think about than any team in the ‘Melo (or Starbury) era.

  35. I didn’t just bet the over, I bet 54 wins. I, like virtually everyone on the board, knew that the team had a serious shot to be a contender because it was, for a brief moment, a very good roster construction. The following two years were an exercise in frustration when certain posters assumed that the Knicks would build on their success because of things like synergy and spacing and Melo Assists, but that’s to be expected when people make predictions based on wishful thinking instead of data and reason.

  36. The obvious tweak to the starting rotations is to replace LT with Knox. Some offense is needed. I’m curious about how much we lose on defense. I bet it’s not much. The second issue is 3-point shooting and perimeter defense or rebounding. A second tweak, if a few more games proves it’s no fluke, is to replace Frank with Dotson. So, for now:
    1st team: Kanter, Knox, Hardaway, Dotson, Burke.
    2nd team: Vonleh, Robinson, Ntilikina, Hezonja, Trier.
    3rd team: Kornet*, Hicks*, Lee, Baker, Mudiay*
    * Frequently inactive

    @32 +1 on your comment about PG. That’s the biggest hole on this team. We had hoped that Ntilikina was that guy but he’s far from it. We should be looking for one in the draft but there’s no highly rated PG on the board. It’s most likely we find a front-court player there. That means we should look to the Free Agent wire. Which, in my mind means Kemba.

  37. I’m really disappointed by Frank, when he shakes off his mental restraints he shows flashes of competent O but he’s way too timid,
    I’d rather have him a 6-15 night that a ghost impersonation like last night, Fiz must really work on this.

    Whatever the opposite of alpha male is, he’s it (and it goes beyond beta male). He has more innate talent and skills than he’s showing. He’s just so extremely risk averse and afraid to make a mistake he doesn’t do anything aggressive even if circumstances are screaming that he should. You get the point where you are shocked when he tries. If we could put a little of Knox in him and a little of Frank in Knox, we’d have 2 better players.

  38. The Melo trade sucked, but if we’re charting Knickerblogger optimism like a stock, the inflection point is the Bargnani trade.

    Not only did we lost optimism, we lost posters. 60% of the blog participants from that year probably don’t even watch basketball anymore let alone comment here. That trade was a flaming train wreck.

    Oh that’s totally true. The only good thing about that trade is the immortal GIF of the hilarious failed dunk attempt against the Sixers.

  39. I think one of Fizdale’s best decisions so far has been making Knox earn a starting spot, so I wouldn’t put him in yet. Even though Hezonja is a mess, it’s better to put him in Lance’s place until Knox plays his way into the starting lineup.

  40. 1st team: Kanter, Knox, Hardaway, Dotson, Burke.

    I think this is going to be a bad defensive team.

    Knox is a downgrade from Thomas and Dotson is a downgrade from Frank. The whole reason Fizdale has Frank and Thomas starting together now is that the other 3 are so weak. He’s trying to offset their badness on defense, but with Lance/Frank he’s losing too much punch. Dotson for Frank is probably the better idea, but ouch for Frank. If Knox is going to start (and he will eventually) he’s either going to have to play better D, we need KP back, or we need to try to get Dotson and Frank on the court too.

    But who am I kidding?

    The reason we are struggling to put together a good lineup is that we have mostly one way and bad players we are hoping round out their games.

  41. Well, 2012-13 was fun but I recall there being lots of worry about the fragility of the team going forward, starting with the Lin fiasco and ending with JR’s elbow and general stupidness, Chandler (and on a critical possession, Melo) getting absolutely ravaged by Hibbert, Kidd falling off a cliff, Novak getting exposed as a 1-trick pony that was useless in the playoffs, Woodson being unimaginative, etc. Once your starting PG is Raymond Felton, there is little cause for optimism. We had the Amare albatross hanging around our necks, Melo showing signs of wearing down (the Garnett shoulder thing? the needle to the knee?) We were in draft purgatory with either no pick or lousy picks coming up (and were actually blindsided by the 17 win season that led to Porzingis, no one saw that coming!)

    Maybe I’m misremembering, but I don’t think many of us believed that there was much long-term upside to that team.

  42. Frank is in serious need of some tough love. Somebody to metaphorically punch him in the nose and light a fire under his ass. I love his defense, but I’m starting to actively dislike him. He needs to shoot every time he’s open, and he needs to bully smaller players down low, which I’ve seen him do, so I know he can do it.

  43. @44

    I agree with everything you said other than I think at a certain point when it was obvious that team was going nowhere, the core was purposely blown up and Melo shelved trying to get Towns or a player like that.

  44. Oh that’s totally true. The only good thing about that trade is the immortal GIF of the hilarious failed dunk attempt against the Sixers.

    The clips of him trying to play defense were also priceless

  45. The failed dunk attempt was notorious but since he broke his elbow it was more cringe-worthy than hilarious…at least for me.

  46. @43 – I realize that the lineup is defensively deficient. And you’re right. Who are we kidding. Few players on this team are well rounded. Kanter gets double-doubles but he can’t defend the rim. THJr can knock down the occasional 3 and can score, but opponents have their way with him. Frank can be a lock-down defender but he plays as if he’ll get fined for every miss.

    But we need Knox to develop into a strong 2-way player. Dotson isn’t a great defensive player but it’s a mild downgrade. We lack size and we lack play-making. THJr, even scoring 24 points was -25 vs the Bucks. That’s because he couldn’t defend the perimeter. 5 players played 30+ minutes: THJr -25, Ntilikina -6, Kanter -9, Hezonja -14, Dotson -8

    Thomas, Burke and Trier were the only ones on the plus side.

    Laugh if you will, but when Melo apologized for taking a long 2, I think he was on to something. Every Knick that passes up a 3-pt shot should be fined or made to run laps if he takes a 2 and misses. I’ll keep saying this until I’m blue in the face, these players have this year to round out their games. If they’re historically weak on offense, they need to start scoring. If they’ve been weak on defense, they need to get stops. Coaches can do that with a young team.

  47. It really is very refreshing enjoying the Knicks this much early in the year.

    I haven’t had the chance to post since the season started but here are two quick thoughts.

    One – I liked Fizdale’s decision to go with Timmy defending the final play vs Brooklyn. Not so much because of the logic he gave. But implicit in the decision he made is the one he didn’t make. In the moment could have prioritised the win and he didn’t, he priorities development. You can argue there were better developmental moves available but you can’t argue this was short-sighted focus on winning one game. That’s refreshing.

    Two – people have commented a lot on the minutes distribution, which has been pretty good. The shot distribution much less so, though. We know Timmy can score 25 on 25 shots (most nba players probably can!) so it would be nice to see Fiz force-feed some shots to others. Clearly they are still in the early stages of developing an offense and THj shooting 25 times doesn’t help us win, so from that perspective it’s fine. Hopefully it evolves though…

  48. If you use Burke as your starting point, I think you need Knox (and until then Hez) at the 4. Aside from none of us having any faith in Lance, even the announcers (all of them, but especially Breen) are calling out Thomas’s lack of contributions offensively. And even if he WERE a lockdown defender, which he’s not, when your team is consistently outscored when you’re on the court, maybe your defense is not a deciding factor.

    The other option is starting Frank instead of Burke at the 1 and Dotson at the 3. Personally I think that’s a better lineup, and one that would demand that Frank do some offense, but hard to see Fiz putting Frank over Burke is he’s rewarding performance.

  49. If Fiz is playing the long game by prioritizing THjr’s development over wins, then that was brilliant at the end of the Nets game. If THjr can turn into a two-way player, his value is much higher, and that gives the team a chance to compete when other roles are filled. If he can’t, then he’s nothing more than, as Strat has argued, an overpaid 6th man. This certainly is the year to find out what he’s capable of.

  50. The failed dunk attempt was notorious but since he broke his elbow it was more cringe-worthy than hilarious…at least for me.

    I forgot that. You’re right, it puts that squarely into the realm of cringe.

  51. @44 & @46 – that team did have two moves that would have made it better.

    1. Replacing Woodson with a coach who understood what was happening in the modern NBA

    2. The eminently available Lowry trade instead of the Bargs trade

    I know it all went downhill pretty fast, but it wasn’t always destined to.

  52. Donovan Mitchell watch – 3 games, 21-61, 8-29 from 3

    It’s only 3 games, but I’m predicting a pretty severe sophomore slump for this guy. He’s obviously got the green light to chuck up 20+ shots a game, but needs to shoot a tad better.

    (Oh and Jaylen Brown rocking a .420 TS after 4 games)

  53. I feel that Dotson has earned his spot over Timmy and vonleh over lance!.
    Frank, dot, Burke, vonleh, kanter: should be the 5 with thjr 6th off the bench…

  54. So far this season Frank Ntilikina has been butt. Yes, he’s a good defender, but he’s a zero on offense. He’s still young and it takes guards a while to develop, but he still looks pretty terrible on the offensive end. He flat out sucked yesterday.

  55. My rankings, so far–

    Ass:

    Ntilikina
    Thomas
    Baker
    Knox
    Hezonja

    Meh:

    Trier
    Burke
    Hardaway

    Not ass:

    Kanter
    Vonleh

    Rapist:

    Dotson

  56. There are no real good answers to the lineup because we don’t have many good players. Like sure, play Knox instead of Lance-Lance sucks, especially on offense. But so far, Knox has sucked on both offense and defense. If you’re trying to win the answer is probably to play Hezonja, who was at least somewhat mediocre last year. or try Dotson as a smallball 4.

  57. Out of curiosity, I went to b-ref, sorted the Knicks roster by WS/48 for the season, and got EXACTLY the list Jowles put down, except for the rape bit. How insightful.

  58. Free Mudiay! I mean if Burke’s going to put up a sub .50 TS% then what do you have to lose except more games which is a good thing right?

  59. @9

    Early season ticket sales are more a reflection of the previous season — or previous few, in this team’s case — than in the actual on-court product. It takes fans a while to recognize there’s finally something fun worth seeing

    Let’s hope so. It’s probably the only way basketball related rationality (as opposed to marketing rationality) enters the building.
    btw. I don’t think what we’re seeing now is a result of such rationality, as much as a byproduct of the dead end the previous regimes drove the cap situation and level of the players on the roster. In other words there was simply no way to retool with veterans anymore.

  60. I’m pleasantly surprised that Mudiay isn’t playing.

    It means 2 good things:
    1) the front office is not telling Fizdale who to play
    and
    2) Fizdale is aware that Mudiay is irredeemably awful

  61. Well, 2012-13 was fun but I recall there being lots of worry about the fragility of the team going forward, starting with the Lin fiasco and ending with JR’s elbow and general stupidness, Chandler (and on a critical possession, Melo) getting absolutely ravaged by Hibbert, Kidd falling off a cliff, Novak getting exposed as a 1-trick pony that was useless in the playoffs, Woodson being unimaginative, etc. Once your starting PG is Raymond Felton, there is little cause for optimism. We had the Amare albatross hanging around our necks, Melo showing signs of wearing down (the Garnett shoulder thing? the needle to the knee?) We were in draft purgatory with either no pick or lousy picks coming up (and were actually blindsided by the 17 win season that led to Porzingis, no one saw that coming!)

    Maybe I’m misremembering, but I don’t think many of us believed that there was much long-term upside to that team.

    That’s precisely how it was. We enjoyed the fuck out of the wins (which were tons of fun), but there was a general sense of doom about the future of the team. The Bargs trade ruined any vague hope, but that was not a time when we, as a site, were all “the future is bright!” Not like 2010-11 before the Melo trade (and, to a certain extent, now!).

  62. Donovan Mitchell watch – 3 games, 21-61, 8-29 from 3

    It’s only 3 games, but I’m predicting a pretty severe sophomore slump for this guy. He’s obviously got the green light to chuck up 20+ shots a game, but needs to shoot a tad better.

    It’s so funny how different Mitchell looks when you take away the rookie shine. As a rookie, the guy was outstanding. As a 22-year-old player, he still looks decent, but less special. Essentially, being a decent player as a rookie is amazing, as few rookies are decent to start off their careers (the few who are good right away often become icons). Being a decent player as a 22-year old is still good, but the hope is that if you’re decent at 21, you’re actually good at 22.

    Mitchell was the guy I mentioned the other day that the NBA beat writer was arguing with fans about how he thinks that Mitchell deserves extra credit for being able to take 20+ shots a game.

  63. @64
    Mudiay’s out with an ankle injury, it looks like he’ll be back (alas) friday or next monday at the latest.

    Yes, we have 3 players “disabled” with ankles injuries…

  64. Out of curiosity, I went to b-ref, sorted the Knicks roster by WS/48 for the season, and got EXACTLY the list Jowles put down, except for the rape bit. How insightful.

    Turns out that the stats have some grounding in reality. How enlightening.

  65. Justice Kavanaugh would disagree. Oh wait, he’s not a white, Christian male. Never mind.

    Are these the beginnings of our unlikely bromance? I feel like we’re in a romantic comedy right now.

  66. @66

    Well, the questions about Mitchell in the draft were also about his ceiling, how much better can he get. Of course he produced way better than anyone expected in his first year, but he’s already older than a guy like Devin Booker, for example. There’s obviously something to be said about spending those extra years in college instead of the NBA, meaning that it’s likely Mitchell has more to progress in his game than a guy who’s already been in the NBA for those 3 years, but that’s also the thing about drafting more NBA-ready talent.

    Mitchell will be 25 by the time the Jazz will have to extend him, which should be his physical prime. You gotta love what he did last season and there’s good chance he’ll be a good player for a long time, but when you compare him to a guy like Tatum it really seems he’s closer to his ceiling already.

  67. I remember 2012-13 a little differently. The majority of that team was in its athletic prime. Melo, Chandler, Felton, Smith, Novak, and Copeland were between 27-30. Shump was 22. We rotated veteran minimum bigs (Wallace > Camby > Thomas > Martin) in a way that could have continued forever.

    It is kind of a fun what-if to think about what the team could’ve looked like if we doubled down on small ball. That 2012-2013 Knicks team was a little ahead of its time (by accident) so it sure was a shame that we then went to “the East is big, man” and then the fucking triangle.

    Kidd was pretty essential to that team, but if we used the Bargnani assets to get Lowry maybe we could’ve squeezed out an extra 50 win season.

    Lowry-JR-Shump-Melo-Chandler with THJ-Prigs-Felton-Novak-Copeland off the bench + minimum/exception guys could’ve been at least fun to watch. It probably would’ve all went to hell with Shump’s injuries/ineffectiveness, Melo’s injuries, Prigs and Novak getting increasingly old and slow, etc. The process wouldn’t have been mind numbingly stupid a la Bargnani, though.

  68. Oh yeah, there definitely were ways for the Knicks to keep themselves afloat better in 2013-14 than what actually occurred. Not a whole lot better, but definitely better. Kind of hard to not do better than one of the worst Knick trades of all-time (and with the Knicks, that’s saying a lot!).

  69. Kind of hard to not do better than one of the worst Knick trades of all-time (and with the Knicks, that’s saying a lot!).

    Has the site ever run a poll of the worst Knicks trades of this century? If not, it might be fun. And by “fun,” I mean “traumatic.”

  70. The Jazz desperately need another floor spacer and scorer. There’s too much pressure on Mitchell to score, but he has no room to operate when he’s on the floor with Favors, Gobert, and Rubio. If I were them I’d try to trade Favors for a stretch PF. Their defense is excellent, but they aren’t going to be a serious contender if they are depending Ingles to be a consistent #2 option and have no clear #3 option. Mitchell was an excellent rookie and he’ll almost certainly get better, but I agree with the consensus that he was advantaged by the fact that he was older than many of the other rookies.

  71. Has the site ever run a poll of the worst Knicks trades of this century? If not, it might be fun. And by “fun,” I mean “traumatic.”

    Oh wow. I’m just going to list all the bad ones in chronological order using stream of consciousness. Let me know if I miss any.

    It starts with trading Patrick Ewing for a ton of useless long term salary.

    Then, of course we compounded that mistake (because compounding mistakes a big part of what we do here) by trading one of those pieces (Glen Rice) for the terrible long term deals of Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley.

    Then the grand daddy of the Scott Layden era: Mark Jackson, Marcus Camby, and the 7th pick in a draft where Nene and Amar’e Stoudemire were available for Antonio McDyess, coming off knee surgery.

    We also traded a still good Latrell Sprewell for Keith Van Horn and his onerous contract.

    Enter Isiah Thomas

    The Marbury trade

    The Curry trade

    The Steve Francis trade

    Each is worthy of the prize. Some of his lesser known disasters (like acquiring Maurice Taylor’s onerous contract for no apparent reason) don’t even seem worth mentioning. The Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph acquisitions almost seem ok in comparison, even though they’re also dumb.

    Enter Donnie Walsh

    We like to think well of Donnie, but his contribution to this list is strong.

    Jordan Hill, a 2012 1st round pick, and the option to swap picks in 2011 to unload Jared Jefferies (and y’all think stretching Noah was dumb!)

    David Lee for Anthony Randolph, Ronnie Turiaf, and Kellene Azubuke (sp?)

    The Melo trade

    Enter Glen Grunwald

    I can’t think of many terrible trades, although we threw away 2nd round picks like it was the cool thing to do.

    Bargnani is technically on his ledger, but he did quit after it, so…

    I can’t go on

  72. David Lee for Anthony Randolph, Ronnie Turiaf, and Kellene Azubuke (sp?)

    This one hurts, not because it was stupid — Lee was going to leave as a free agent — but because I had such high hopes for Randolph, and such medium hopes for Azubuike. Like everyone else, I was suckered into Randolph’s summer league play and all those skills, never comprehending what a dumb player he was. And Azubuike seemed like he’d be a good role player. This was right after LeBron took his talents to Miami, and a part of me was foolish enough to think, “Well, we couldn’t have made this trade if LeBron signed here, and Randolph is going to make this team so much fun.” Instead, he was a knucklehead, Azubuike never played for us, and the only useful piece turned out to be Turiaf and his magnificent and expressive beard.

  73. Hardaway for Rubio works under the salary cap. Just saying…

    I’m a huge Rubio fan, but from what I gather, so is Utah. He’s off to a bad start so far, but that was true last year also and then he finished the year playing some of the best ball of his life.

    We still need a starting PG.

    I’m perfectly comfortable keeping Burke and making him the backup PG long term. We are going to need someone anyway. So why not Burke? He’d be a good backup and we are going to have to pay someone anyway.

    If Frank is going to be more of a wing player, we should start thinking about who we can bring in as a free agent PG next year. If not in free agency, who we can draft or trade for to go with KP, Frank, Knox, and whoever winds up at C next year.

  74. Randolph is one of those players with seemingly unlimited potential that didn’t have whatever it takes to succeed in the NBA. I’d have to say that of all my predictions about players, I was more wrong about him than any other player. That’s how you learn though. You have to ask, “what did I miss about him?”. IMO, the answer is basketball IQ and work ethic.

  75. The Eddy Curry trade is the worst one, because it was terrible process combined with terrible result.

    While Curry was still on the Bulls, he was diagnosed with an irregular heartbeat, and the Bulls wanted him to go in for a round of testing. He refused. It was looking like his career might be over, as the irregular heartbeat was considered very serious at the time. His trade value was in the toilet.

    That didn’t stop the Knicks from sending a first round pick that ended up becoming Lamarcus Aldridge and also throwing in a pick swap that ended up with the Bulls selecting Joakim Noah while the Knicks’ swapped pick ended up becoming Wilson Chandler. The Knicks then gave Curry a ridiculous five year contract extension and he proceeded to play like a sack of warm turds immediately upon arriving. He played regularly but abysmally for three seasons and then in the final two seasons of that deal he just didn’t play.

    In terms of assets and opportunity cost, that one’s got to be the worst. The original Melo trade was bad but at least Melo was a decent player for the Knicks for part of his tenure. Eddy Curry sucked from the minute he stepped onto the floor.

  76. Are these the beginnings of our unlikely bromance? I feel like we’re in a romantic comedy right now.

    Until Jowles takes out a large insurance policy and soon thereafter Z-Man mysteriously dies of bleach poisoning.

  77. We went through this last year on here re: Rubio for Timmy. It makes too much sense for us for it to ever happen, but I’ll keep hoping the Knicks are looking into it. Utah is miscasting Rubio as an off guard more often than not because Mitchell always has the ball.

    On the other hand, if the Knicks could pull this off and KP comes back in January, we’d be looking at 35 win/11th pick hell, so it’s just as well that it doesn’t happen.

    #Zion

  78. @ 80 – and you even left out how they had signed Jerome James before the Curry trade

  79. Yeah, I think the Eddy Curry trade is just too terrible. It encapsulates everything wrong about the Knicks in the past 20 years. It managed to be at the same time shortsighted, because it took away the chance to draft Aldridge and Noah, and bad for the team’s immediate situation. If you add Aldridge and Noah as rookies to the Knicks at least we could have some real talent on board.

    The other trades at least included somewhat capable players or the players / picks given away weren’t too impactful in comparison.

  80. @78 I agree they haven’t solved their long running search for a starting caliber point guard yet. Keeping Burke as the backup makes so much sense they probably won’t consider it (although I have hope for the new front office). Frank needs to play the 2 or 3 unless he makes some incredible leap in point guard skills the next couple of years – I don’t see that happening.

    This team has competed in a real way for the entire game so far so props to Fiz and his staff. Giving minutes to the young guys, playing hard, and getting better are exactly what the plan should be – while piling up close losses of course. Hopefully Knox is back soon so we can find out what we have. This rebuilding stuff is actually pretty exciting.

  81. The Eddy Curry trade is the worst one, because it was terrible process combined with terrible result.

    You can say the same about Bargs, though, no?

    As far as damage, the fallout from the Bargs trade includes derailing a 54 win team, Jakob Poetl, and if we’re counting opportunity cost, Kyle Lowry.

    It’s so hard to say which one was worse. The Yankees had Mantle and DiMaggio. We have this.

  82. If Mantle was around today he’d get run out of the game by the SJWs.

    He loved the kiss cam, didn’t he?

  83. Well, Kobe and Derrick Rose are still around and very much beloved by fanbases in basketball, a generally more progressive bunch than the fans of the other major sports, so no, he wouldn’t have been.

  84. Seemed like the Bargnani trade happened because Melo didn’t want to play PF, a sentiment we got a preview of in the Indiana series when Woodson mysteriously went big with K-Mart in the starting lineup. I think as soon as you moved Melo to SF, so many more problems arise. It’s so much harder to find a big who spaces the floor well, and Melo’s declining lateral quickness becomes more of a problem.

    Another thing you gotta remember about 12/13 is that we didn’t just rely on old players. We got career years from a lot of players (Melo and Ray most notably) and then got unsustainable performances from nobodies and old players like Kidd, Copeland and K-Mart. Like half that team was either out of the league or out of NBA rotations within two years.

  85. He loved the kiss cam, didn’t he?

    Ha.
    I’m still not sure if ingmarr was being serious on that thread, or if he was trolling SJW culture.

  86. I agree they haven’t solved their long running search for a starting caliber point guard yet. Keeping Burke as the backup makes so much sense they probably won’t consider it (although I have hope for the new front office). Frank needs to play the 2 or 3 unless he makes some incredible leap in point guard skills the next couple of years – I don’t see that happening.

    @85

    We all know where this is ending…..Kemba Walker. No problem with the player, big problem with the likely price.

  87. If Mantle was around today he’d get run out of the game by the SJWs.

    Why don’t we just pluck some other historical figures out of their own milieu and subject them to today’s ideas of ethics and morals? That sounds like a thoughtful, productive exercise.

  88. If Mantle was around today he’d get run out of the game by the SJWs.

    I’m old enough to have seen Mantle play. I was a young kid. It was ball day. My father gave an usher a couple of dollars to let us down near the dugout. Then he gave the ball to a policeman friend to pass around the Yankee dugout for some autographs.

    Mantle, Joe Peptitone, Horace Clark, Mel Stottlemyre, and a few others signed the ball. I can’t remember them all.

    It was my prized possession in life because we were very poor.

    Years later my younger brother took it outside, played ball with it, and basically destroyed it. uggh! I have one memory from the game itself. Mantle got a line drive double down the line. The ball left his bat like it was shot out of a rocket. I was as excited as a kid could be to be at a game, have a ball, and see Mantle get a hit. Dad’s gone some years now, but I still have the ball. You can barely make out any of the names, but it doesn’t really matter to me anymore. I saw Mantle get a hit with my father.

  89. @76 Good post that triggered my Knicks PTSD

    I’m still not sure if ingmarr was being serious on that thread, or if he was trolling SJW culture.

    He was serious, as it initially seemed that Z-man’s friend made an untoward comment to the young woman. Without the clarification, it would have been pretty gross.

  90. back to the only story in sports that matter at the moment:

    “This is the only time I’m going to address this,” Rondo told ESPN on Tuesday. “I had a mouthpiece in my mouth and I [was] exasperated because I was about to tell him to ‘get the [expletive] out of here.’

    “Look at my body language [in the video]. My hands on my hips. I turn away for a second. Look at Eric [Gordon] and Melo [Carmelo Anthony] in the video. If they saw me spit, they would have turned their face up or something. They had no reaction.”

    okay, i may have over reacted a bit yesterday when i said rondo was “fucking nasty” for spitting on cp3…

    i don’t know, maybe he’s got some kind of hypersalivation situation going on, and, you know, shit happens…

  91. I think the idiocy of the Zach Randolph trade is overlooked in the pantheon of horrible trades of the century. His stock was down in Portland, was dealing with rape accusations of his own (damn you, SJWs!!), and, of course, took up the same useless space on the court as the useless space of Eddy Curry. It put us further into salary cap hell while costing us a cheap young asset. It was doubling down on shit with shit, and it became instantly clear that he’d have to go. Glen Grunwald even set up a trade to ship him to Denver that year for some decent young players but Isiah vetoed it because it would have made him look bad.

    Then, in the end, he gets traded for a guy that would literally keel over and die if he ever stepped foot on a basketball court.

    (But, that said, the worst trade of the past 20 years was the Ewing trade. It was what started the franchise on an unavoidable dependence on mid-level exceptions and crippling salary-collecting trades. Things could have been so much different from that point on).

  92. Are these the beginnings of our unlikely bromance? I feel like we’re in a romantic comedy right now.

    unlikely and surely fleeting…

  93. Why don’t we just pluck some other historical figures out of their own milieu and subject them to today’s ideas of ethics and morals? That sounds like a thoughtful, productive exercise.

    OK, I’ll meet you at the next statue destruction or building re-naming.

  94. Why don’t we just pluck some other historical figures out of their own milieu and subject them to today’s ideas of ethics and morals? That sounds like a thoughtful, productive exercise

    I can tell you with goddamn certainty that Eddie Lee Wilkins wouldn’t like what he saw in the mirror if he woke up in 2018 under the nopostmodern ethos that all fives are stretch fives.

  95. He was serious, as it initially seemed that Z-man’s friend made an untoward comment to the young woman. Without the clarification, it would have been pretty gross.

    It seemed pretty clear to a normal person, who is not on the look-out for reasons to be outraged, that Zman said his friend said it to him (ZMan), not the woman.

  96. I had to look up SJW

    Ha! I had to do that a couple of years ago when I started seeing it everywhere. I was reading stuff and thinking, what the hell does single Jewish women have to do with this?

  97. It’s VERY easy to point to the Curry trade as the worst. On the surface it was. However, the granddaddy of them all, the trade that started the slide into the abyss of the NBA, was the Ewing trade. It destroyed the cap structure of the team for decades. Every other trade was an attempt to fix the problems that the Ewing trade caused. It still chills me. All the other trades we absolute dumb-ass trades. What was the last GOOD trade that the Knicks have made?

  98. I can tell you with goddamn certainty that Eddie Lee Wilkins wouldn’t like what he saw in the mirror if he woke up in 2018 under the nopostmodern ethos that all fives are stretch fives.

    Sometimes I look at Draymond Green and imagine what Anthony Mason could have done as a center in this league.

  99. OK, I’ll meet you at the next statue destruction or building re-naming.

    You don’t seem to understand the difference between “trying to understand moral and ethical differences with regard to milieu” and “actively commemorating and/or praising a racist’s life’s work,” so we can just stop the intellectual dishonesty here. You are the very definition of ignorant.

  100. It seemed pretty clear to a normal person, who is not on the look-out for reasons to be outraged, that Zman said his friend said it to him (ZMan), not the woman.

    Let’s check your reading comprehension skills.

    -Kiss cam nailed a young couple right behind us, the boy seemed very reluctant and kissed his absolutely gorgeous date on the cheek. My friend quipped “I’ll do it for you!”

    Illiterate or just obtuse? You be the judge.

  101. If Mantle was around today he’d get run out of the game by the SJWs.

    Yeah, just like Kaepernick has been.

  102. I mean, whenever terms like SJW are used I instantly tune out of any debate, because it usually shows only one thing: the person is not willing to have a debate in the first place.

    People don’t want to be called racist assholes when they’re morally conservative and want to dissociate from that, but then they group together people like me, a person with a life in activism, with 15 year old girls from tumblr who are going through a “queer phase”.

    So I guess what I’d say is, if you don’t want to get called a bigot piece of garbage for having a different point of view, maybe start trying to understand that there’s nuance and differences everywhere even amongst those you hate.

  103. Ha! I had to do that a couple of years ago when I started seeing it everywhere. I was reading stuff and thinking, what the hell does single Jewish women have to do with this?

    hmmmm, spend much time going through the personal ads in the classified section back in the 80’s…

    just for the record – no i myself never responded to any of those ads – not to say that stuff wasn’t a little interesting at the time…

  104. You don’t seem to understand the difference between “trying to understand moral and ethical differences with regard to milieu” and “actively commemorating and/or praising a racist’s life’s work,” so we can just stop the intellectual dishonesty here.

    https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/09/27/should-american-military-bases-be-named-after-confederate-officers/

    this issue ain’t going away anytime soon…pretty costly at this time to “correct” some of those installations…my understanding is some were named specifically to help attract southern based citizens into the military back in the earlier part of the 20th century…

  105. I love the cognitive dissonance being displayed by jowles and bruno here. You 2 tolerant progressives are insulting the hell of me while I’m making some light hearted fun of the super sensitive types, and yet I’m the ignorant, hateful bigot.
    Keep it up. It really helps your cause.

  106. “Let’s check your reading comprehension skills.

    -Kiss cam nailed a young couple right behind us, the boy seemed very reluctant and kissed his absolutely gorgeous date on the cheek. My friend quipped “I’ll do it for you!”

    Illiterate or just obtuse? You be the judge.”

    Jowles, what I said is how I read it. It was an ambiguous statement, as he didn’t say who the comment was directed at. I assumed he directed the comment to his buddy, i guess because my first instinct was to assume his friend wasnt an asshole. Others looking to be outraged might assume his friend went up to the couple and said it to them.

  107. Re: the Kaepernick “zinger”…… SJWs and whatever you call people who are bent out of shape about Kaepernick are 2 sides of the same coin. Both groups are puritanical assholes who live to get outraged.

  108. This country is suffering from an epidemic of mental illness right now. I’m happy I never chose to have children. I’d have to leave. I may eventually leave anyway when my mother passes away, but the timing is different without children and grand children to worry about.

  109. I don’t get the Kaepernick outrage. He was on a steep decline and close to washed up before the controversy even started. Players that were with him right from the start of the protests are still playing in the NFL. They aren’t out of the league. Even if the owners would prefer that grievances be settled off the field, they still want to win games. So those that are good enough to play in the NFL are still in the NFL. Kaepernick is not. To say otherwise is dishonest or a poor evaluation of where his game was at the end.

    At this point everyone on earth knows what the grievances are. We should be determining exactly what is going on in an unspun non political way, figuring out why it’s happening, and then fixing it. What’s going on now is dumber than a pile of rocks. (and I include the flag outrage in that)

  110. This country is suffering from an epidemic of mental illness right now.

    that’s an interesting thought…i’m not sure if the actual amount or percentage of individuals with mental health issues is rising – or, the focus is finally starting to raise on the issue of mental health…

    definitely good to see some athletes speaking out on it more and more…

    I’m happy I never chose to have children.

    i neither married nor had children…at this stage of the game, i don’t see that changing much :) I have been very blessed though to be able to play a fairly large role in my god kids lives…

    what a lesson in humility trying to parent can be…it’s good though to serve someone other than yourself…not always healthy to be the continual focus of your own life…

    I’d have to leave. I may eventually leave anyway when my mother passes away, but the timing is different without children and grand children to worry about.

    not sure what that means – but, i do know i enjoy and appreciate being able to read your thoughts here…definitely enjoyed the mickey mantle story…

  111. Bruno, I should mention that I’m talking about the hysteria in the US. I have no idea what’s going on in Brazil. For all I know there are Nazi racists running around Brazil killing minorities and homosexuals.
    Regardless of what you read and hear about the US in the media, most people get along fine and even poor people live comfortable lives compared to most of the rest of the world.

  112. not sure what that means – but, i do know i enjoy and appreciate being able to read your thoughts here…definitely enjoyed the mickey mantle story…

    My mother is going to be 85 next month. She lives with my younger brother who has aspergers. Both need help. I can’t even contemplate leaving until my mother passes and I ensure my brother will be taken care of, including financially. That’s going to be my job. Hopefully that won’t be any time soon, but the day is coming eventually.

  113. It used to be Costa Rica as the escape route, but it’s fallen off there. I think Chile has some potential. The list of places to go where people will leave you the hell alone is dwindling.

    Glad I never had kids either. I figure this country has maybe 20 good years left before the shit really hits the fan.

  114. @118 – With my kids now out of the house, I’ve been looking at what it would take to become an expat. I, like you, am very troubled by this world and I point in both directions. What happened to the middle?

    I’ve resisted chiming in on this debate but I’ll add my 2 cents. There are morally repugnant behaviors (see Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein) that deserve jail time, and then there’s the PC bullshit. I guess I’m sensitive to that because I’ve felt unfair backlash for a remark I made a long time ago that someone added false and vile connotation to. It’s a long story, not worth repeating, but I have become uncomfortable around PC people – there are millions who feel the same way. What PC folks don’t realize is that their hypersensitivity has led to the acceptance by many of them of the pussy-grabber.

    Z-man’s pal’s quip was 100% harmless and frankly, if he said it to the girl, I wouldn’t be bothered by that either. If he touched her, without permission, there’s the line.

    Watch this to the end – familiar?

    Now, let’s get back to basketball.

  115. Costa Rica is on my radar. Was there for the first time in February. It was the best vacation ever. Did you know that the country has no standing army and it’s electricity is powered by 100% renewable energy?

  116. It used to be Costa Rica as the escape route, but it’s fallen off there. I think Chile has some potential. The list of places to go where people will leave you the hell alone is dwindling.

    I think New Zealand is the new hot spot. I’d like to go somewhere where they speak English or at least have a huge English speaking population, but most of them are on the fast track to doom. At this age, I can’t imagine myself mustering up the brain power to learn a new language. I’d rather be at the racetrack looking for overlays. Australia has some great racing. hmmmn

  117. No army….is it like Switzerland where it’s basically a citizen army where everyone is armed?

  118. aging is a really amazing journey…i’m very blessed to still have my mom (76)…

    she has more life and vigor in her at this age (despite frequent naps :), than i think i’ve ever had…

    i’ve never been a particularly fearful person, but, as i age – health concerns for myself and others have taken hold within me more easily…

    just recently had a classmate (age 54) go from being a strong center of the family to needing daily assistance due to alzheimers…finding out about their condition threw me for a tailspin a bit…

    the thought of losing yourself, within yourself – definitely shakes me…

    my dad was bedridden for the last 6 or 7 years of his life…he viewed the world as coming to an end…really it was simply his own mortality he felt closing in…

    years of reading sci fi authors like issac asimov and arthur c. clarke makes me have a great deal of hope for the future…my own ever declining health though is beginning to dim that bright future some…i understand though, my views are mostly a reflection of myself…

  119. Costa Rica is on my radar.

    I don’t know if anywhere here heard of Fred Hickey (fairly well known tech investor). He lives in New Hampshire. I think he bought a home in Costa Rica that’s his eventual “escape route”. Interesting that Costa Rica comes up a lot among people thinking they may eventually leave the US because they don’t like where things are going and they want to get out before the fit hits the shan.

  120. @132

    The awakening for me occurred when I started losing friends to health issues. I lost a couple of buddies to accidents when I was young. As painful as that was, it didn’t alter my thinking about myself. But when they started dropping from natural causes, “time” increased in value a LOT compared to other things.

  121. This country is suffering from an epidemic of mental illness right now.

    that’s an interesting thought…i’m not sure if the actual amount or percentage of individuals with mental health issues is rising – or, the focus is finally starting to raise on the issue of mental health…

    I think he just means everyone has collectively lost their damn mind. And I don’t usually agree with his social commentary, but he’s probably right about that one.

  122. There’s one thing that scares the shit out of me: A few well placed EMPs that fry the entire country’s grid, along with every electronic device. We’d all be reduced to savages within a few days. In the big cities it would be within a day.

  123. 2for18,

    The point I’ve been trying to make in every thread where the conversation devolves to this stuff is that really, I don’t give a single fuck if a “PC” comment bothers any of you, and neither should any minority. I’m sorry if it sounds belligerent when it’s really not.

    What you guys call PC culture or SJWism, I call not being able to put up with shit anymore. Not being able to have to think all the damn time if a comment or an attitude comes from a hurtful place or from a frivolous joke. Heterosexual males and specially white ones have been able to say and do whatever shit they wanted for centuries and nobody could do shit about it. It spawned cultures of minorities that feel trapped, abused and incapable of properly answering the structures of power that are intertwined with their everyday lives.

    So yes, the LGBTQ culture that I actively represent for exampleis excessive a lot of times when it comes to the bloodlust of being finally able to fight back a little bit and have their voices be echoed for the first time. I won’t talk in place of women or black people.

    But you guys, and I use this as s very generic way of grouping points of view which are certainly more unique and nuanced than this, are willing to cut some slack to every fucking alleged rapist or “good kid who was in a bad situation” (see Dotson, Damyean). And yet you won’t allow a minority group to respond excessively to perceived abuse because then it’s a fucking mental illness.

    So that’s my point. It’s a bit bad with PC culture for you guys, it’s a lot better for us. Is it great? Hell fucking no. But to go back to times when any verbal abuse went unpunished and pushed under the rug because hetero cis males are slightly bothered by not being able to make their awesome jokes anymore? No fucking way that’s happening.

  124. In my life I try to actively fight the idea that minorities have ingrained that everyone that’s not us is a potential enemy. It’s a bad thing for both our existence and activism as a way of dealing with the world, it creates division and shuns away important allies on key subjects, in America, Brazil or wherever you go.

    But really, give us the damn benefit of the doubt for once too. We would love to have that privilege in some situations at least. In the end humans get angry and incensed and do stupid shit.

    If you’re not a piece of shit I guarantee you the situations where PC culture will hurt you are far less frequent and relevant than the violence of not having a fucking voice for an entire group of people who may get excessive sometimes. Should we all work on getting better? Sure. But the onus can’t be only on minorities to get better, as the onus always falls on the weakest ones.

  125. So those that are good enough to play in the NFL are still in the NFL. Kaepernick is not. To say otherwise is dishonest or a poor evaluation of where his game was at the end.

    Are you even fucking serious? You’re completely dead wrong. Like you should go in the corner and repeatedly hit yourself in the head with a giant mallet you’re so wrong.

    The last time Kaepernick played in the NFL was in 2016. He was 29 years old. He put up the following stat line on a terrible team:

    90.7 quarterback rating
    16 TDs
    4 INT
    6.8 Yds/Attempt

    He ranked 17th in the NFL in quarterback rating. He ranked ahead of Philip Rivers, Jameis Winston, Trevor Siemian, Joe Flacco, Carson Wentz, Blake Bortles, Case Keenum, Cam Newton and Brock Osweiler in quarterback rating. Guess who’s still in the league? All of those guys.

    Kapernick’s teammate on the 49ers was Blaine Gabbert. On that same team, same year, Gabbert had a 68.4 quarterback rating, and threw 5 TDs and 6 INTs. He fucking sucks at football and always has, and was nowhere near as good as Kaepernick that year. Guess who else is still in the league? That’s right, Blaine fucking Gabbert. He has even started a couple of games this year! You know who else is also still in the NFL? A whole bunch of shitty backups who would never be able to throw 16 TDs with 4 INTs in an NFL season if you gave them a prime Jerry Rice and Randy Moss as their wide receivers.

    You’re telling me all of those guys are good enough to play in the NFL, and Colin “16 TD, 4 INT” Kaepernick is not? That there’s not something else going on here, it’s strictly a merit thing? Getthefuckouttahere.

  126. This is funny. I just responded to bruno with a post about suppressing speech and thoughts, and my post was blocked. Let’s see if this goes through.

  127. I always loved Kaepernick. Watched him operate the pistol at Nevada and made a lot of money betting on him.
    I think Kaep got whipped by his gf into to SJW thing, and is more interested in the lawsuit now than playing.
    He was ready to sign with Baltimore as a back up about 2 years ago and his gf went on line and called Ray Lewis a slave and the Baltimore owner a slave owner, and that was the end of that.

  128. Here’s a multiple choice question:

    Z-man discussed the entire scenario with his in her early 20’s ultra feminist daughter. She concluded:
    A. Z-man’s friend did nothing wrong
    B. All men are assholes.
    C. The Knicks suck.
    D. Jowles is a moron.
    E. All of the above

  129. F. You’re an old white cis hetero male who doesn’t get it, and the kiss cam is a social construct that perpetuates the patriarchy and denies the intersectionality conducive to an inclusive experience.

  130. The correct answer is A. We actually had a long, thoughtful discussion about it . Her insights into rape culture were quite enlightening.

    PS she didn’t know what SJW meant either.

  131. The point is, F AND A can both be true. I really don’t get why the hell people who defend freedom of speech are so fucking annoyed by someone voicing the idea that such a thing is a problem.

    It’s not like anyone has went to Z-Man’s friend and hit him in the head or whatever. That’s what annoys me so much about this anti-sjw perspective, are you so damn fragile that just being criticized about a joke creates this kind of a mess? The very same guys who’ll “denounce”victimism and fragility from minority people every fucking time?

    Minorities are fighting to survive and exist and you’re fighting for the damn right to make a joke about banging a girl. It annoys me incredibly to think that an entire history of struggle and survival tactics is suddenly now summarized into “oh damn those SJWs are so annoying they’ll criticize me for anything”.

  132. Fucking Louis C.K, who admitted himself to misconduct towards women, is already doing shows again and having standing ovations. You guys are making this issue much bigger than it is by pretending it’s “destroying lives” or whatever the hell is the argument against pc culture. A guy who was actually fucking guilty and admitted so is already back on his feet and will probably even gain some popularity in some circles.

    There has to be perspective in terms of the impact of what is happening. Abuse and violence destroys lives, being blacklisted fucks you up. Getting fucking criticized on the internet doesn’t, specially if you are the so fragile white cis male.

  133. What you guys call PC culture or SJWism, I call not being able to put up with shit anymore.

    Calling dog pooh a lilac doesn’t make it smell any better. The PC culture is simply a non-democratic, non Socratic canard to shout down people who disagree with you. The light of the noonday sun is always the best disinfectant for defective thought and actions.

  134. This is funny. I just responded to bruno with a post about suppressing speech and thoughts, and my post was blocked. Let’s see if this goes through.

    You know that “your post is awaiting moderation” is a regular thing on this site, right? Hahahahahaha, the victim complex is strong in this one. Poor persecuted 2for18.

    JK47 just truth-bombed the thread with facts. Loved it. I’m with Bruno.

    Zion is so goddamn for real and I love it. I can see a team like Phoenix passing on him because they already have a 6’8″ SF in Josh Jackson that they see as the stretch 4 of the future. Going to be so much fun watching Zion torch whatever teams are dumb enough to pass on him.

  135. Lol I just responded to jowles and cut and pasted my moderated post and got moderated again.

  136. The PC culture is simply a non-democratic, non Socratic canard to shout down people who disagree with you.

    This from the guy who compared criticism of what appeared to be an asshole comment (at the time, after clarification everybody agreed it was fine) to Stalin’s purges. We get it. You get to say whatever you want and if anyone disagrees with what you say it’s a free speech violation and a direct cause of the collapse of western civilization.

  137. The PC culture is simply a non-democratic, non Socratic canard to shout down people who disagree with you.

    What the fuck is “PC culture” exactly? Am I part of it? I don’t care for rude homophobic or racist humor and I find people who engage in it to be asshole moron pricks. Am I part of PC culture? Am I non-democratic? Should I be having a Socratic discussion with somebody who thinks it’s real funny to throw around racial slurs or is it okay to simply tell them to fuck straight off?

  138. I’ve had basketball posts disappear into moderation before, it never made any sense to me. I think very frequent posts have a higher chance? It’s not personal and it’s not targeted towards any viewpoint.

  139. Hahaha, you really think that you’re being targeted for censorship? Like Mike K. would purposely censor someone for having a stupid, indefensible worldview? C’mon. That’s some serious delusional paranoia.

  140. My world view = a belief in self ownership, personal responsibility, and the NAP.

    Which I agree, is totally wacko in today’s world.

  141. If you’re not a piece of shit I guarantee you the situations where PC culture will hurt you are far less frequent and relevant than the violence of not having a fucking voice for an entire group of people who may get excessive sometimes.

    I agree with this, Bruno. As a cis male, at times I find the PC thing excessive and inappropriate (as in the response to Z-man’s anecdote), but compared to the alternative – the repression, abuse, and even violence – I accept it as part of the process. All part of progress. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

    Of course, these days my faith in synthesis is so shook I’ve actually already looked into the New Zealand option. Beautiful there, but very very empty. Not sure I’m ready for that quite yet… Wait till the sea rises another 4 or 5 inches and we start running out of fresh water, I guess…

  142. Honestly I wonder what words ‘triggered’ the moderations.

    I’m particularly perturbed that my response to Bruno was moderated because I respect him.

  143. Might be patterns, not words? I always kinda figured the system existed to kill spam and just grabs false positives sometimes.

  144. the kiss cam is a social construct that perpetuates the patriarchy and denies the intersectionality conducive to an inclusive experience.

    What does this mean. Are you being sarcastic?

    If not, why is a kiss cam patriarchal? The woman could kiss the man just as easily as the man could kiss the girl. And if she didn’t want to kiss the guy I can imagine a girl making the sam joke to her girlfriend that Z-man’s friend did. If there was a kiss cam in a gay bar and two guys were expected to kiss would it also be patriarchal (whatever that means)?

  145. The light of the noonday sun is always the best disinfectant for defective thought and actions.

    So you think the only reason noxious views and actions exist is because people don’t know about them?

    On the contrary racism, homophobia, misogyny, transphobia, etc. were fully accepted and deeply ingrained both in our various tangible systems and our collective ethos for centuries.

    They still are, but what you call the “PC movement” or whatever is actually just people doing exactly what you claim you advocate for: people shining a light on abhorrent views/actions.

    Lol at 2for18 thinking he’s shadowbanned or whatever. Conservatives are going to burn this planet to the ground but at least they give us the occasional laugh.

  146. The awaiting moderation thing happens a lot to me, I’ve had it many times when I was posting too frequently, something in the algorithm flags for whatever reason and large posts start getting that one. Definitely 100% has absolutely nothing to do with the content of the post as we’re obviously in opposite sides of the argument 95% of the time.

    Grocer, JK47, Rama and tnfh pretty much said the things I would say.

    I find the Socratic canard argument so funny and it is actually very relevant because well, Socrates lived in fucking Athens where the majority of the damn population couldn’t participate in debates because they were deemed naturally inept to do so because of the place they were born or their gender. So yeah, I can promise you I’ll do anything to stop true Socratic debate from ever being a thing again.

  147. I’ll say it again. I’m a libertarian, not a conservative. I know that’s hard to grasp because most people think there are only 2 sides. Conservatives and Progressives are both power hungry statist puritans who want to tell you how to think and live. Libertarians want to be left alone and want to leave you alone.

  148. And to the whatever that was discussion about patriarchy, I just want to say something to make the discussion deeper. You see, one of the things morally conservative and also liberal people do that is a whole load of bullshit is that they paint whatever they disagree with as if it was a universal concept widely accepted by everyone in the groups they disagree with.

    I don’t expect you to understand the history of contemporary feminism as it’s clearly not an area of interest, but patriarchy itself as a universal concept regarding the social existence of women has been challenged and, I would say, debunked quite a few times by brilliant South American, Indian and African thinkers who argue that it’s actually a localized occurrence. That means it fits the narrative of the struggle for emancipation of white, middle class women in central “northern” places like Western Europe and the US. In this post colonial approach to minority existences, concepts are viewed as localized and almost entirely dependent on the structural relations and the nature of the interactions in place.

    So when you’re criticizing the typical white feminist idea that sees patriarchy in every interaction between women and men, you’re actually following what these women in positions of subalternity have been doing for the last 30 years. I’m saying this to point out what should be obvious: discussions amongst minority groups are incredibly diverse and are always taking place within a historically constructed space where disagreement is the rule, not the exception. Just because one point of view appears to be the only one for the untrained eye, it doesn’t mean it’s “what minorities think”.

  149. Re: the Pistons game, every time I see Bruce Brown in a box score, I think, wait, Bruce Bowen is still playing? Every time.

    Also, what is a Landry Shamet?

  150. Just popping in with the expert philosophical opinion to say that Socratic dialogue was designed not to lead one toward truth but rather to inform people of what exactly it is that they don’t know; in that regard it favors the “SJWs”, insofar that having a properly Socratic dialogue with them might enlighten you on what it is, exactly, that you’re unaware of because of your status, your thought processes, etc. Otherwise, JK, Jowles, TNFH, Bruno, Grocer, etc. are on the money.

  151. Hahaha, you really think that you’re being targeted for censorship? Like Mike K. would purposely censor someone for having a stupid, indefensible worldview?

    He did censor the “It’s All Clyde Frazier’s Fault” poster back in the day.

  152. Who’s another big with the kind of vision and accuracy that Jokic has? He reminds me of Aaron Rodgers with the sort of calm, deliberate, patient action that makes you think he’s just sleepwalking out there, like his 70% is good enough to beat his opponent’s best and he knows it. Not to say he’s lazy, just has some kind of weird sixth sense groove where he’s seeing the game well ahead of his opponents.

    https://youtu.be/4-is05gXaDo?t=273

    Fuck! Dude could win MVP if this improvement is for real.

  153. His passing is truly amazing. He’s got the same thing Rondo, Rubio, etc. have. Great peripheral vision, excellent spacial awareness, quick processing and anticipation of both offensive and defensive player movement, great feel for where his teammates need the ball. It’s a Larry Bird kind of skill level. He’s so young that it’s hard to tell whether he’ll develop the drive to win and to lead that Bird had (my guess is no, but who knows?) but he definitely has stuff that you can’t coach and that his fellow young, talented bigs (KP, Towns, Ayton, etc.) will never have.

    He’s a mediocre defender at best, so there’s that.

  154. A few of those passes were truly WOW moments. Just a magician threading the needle. He must be so much fun to play with – KP take note!

    How much fun would it be hearing Clyde announce those games?

  155. Otherwise, JK, Jowles, TNFH, Bruno, Grocer, etc. are on the money.

    Sez you….. not so sez that noted right wing rag, The Atlantic:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/572581/?__twitter_impression=true

    “Among the general population, a full 80 percent believe that ‘political correctness is a problem in our country.’ Even young people are uncomfortable with it, including 74 percent ages 24 to 29, and 79 percent under age 24. On this particular issue, the woke are in a clear minority across all ages. Youth isn’t a good proxy for support of political correctness — and it turns out race isn’t, either. Whites are ever so slightly less likely than average to believe that political correctness is a problem in the country: 79 percent of them share this sentiment. Instead, it is Asians (82 percent), Hispanics (87 percent) and American Indians (88 percent) who are most likely to oppose political correctness.”

  156. “2for18 what would a libertarian do if he sees someone abusing someone else? Walk away and leave them alone?”

    Good question.
    You’d have to be more specific as to what you mean by abuse. But let’s say it’s an unambiguous situation where I see some guy beating up on an old lady. That guy has violated the NAP so he loses all protections from it, so he’s fair game and I’m within my rights to take action.

    By “leave alone”, I mean that as long as you’re not infringing on someone’s rights or violating the Non Agression Principle, you have the natural right to be left alone by the gov’t and not compelled to act by the gov’t. There is a spectrum in terms of how you define aggression. On one extreme, people who feel that any action taken by the gov’t, like, say, any form of taxation or any law that restricts freedom of movement or trade, is a form of aggression; these people are anarchists.

  157. Yes, Jokic seems to move at his own super efficient speed. He’s like Antonio Gates – how does that old, slow giant guy always get so wide open.

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