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	<title>Comments on: NBA Cancels the First Two Weeks of the 2011-12 Season</title>
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	<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/</link>
	<description>The NBA&#039;s indispensible, premier analytical blog.</description>
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		<title>By: jon abbey</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346822</link>
		<dc:creator>jon abbey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 07:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346822</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[presumably Barkley and Miller don&#039;t get paid if there are no games this year, hard to take their opinions seriously.

my opinion is fuck the owners, but I&#039;m pretty violently anti-capitalism these days. I&#039;ve been saying for months that the players should start their own eight team league, I saw Simmons got into that a bit in a recent column, and just now I saw that Amare said the players have begun talking about it a bit. nothing would make me happier then to see bozos like Dolan and Sarver left with entirely worthless franchises. actually nothing would make me happier than to see the constantly insufferably smug David Stern begging for change on the corner, but that&#039;s I guess too much to ask.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>presumably Barkley and Miller don&#8217;t get paid if there are no games this year, hard to take their opinions seriously.</p>
<p>my opinion is fuck the owners, but I&#8217;m pretty violently anti-capitalism these days. I&#8217;ve been saying for months that the players should start their own eight team league, I saw Simmons got into that a bit in a recent column, and just now I saw that Amare said the players have begun talking about it a bit. nothing would make me happier then to see bozos like Dolan and Sarver left with entirely worthless franchises. actually nothing would make me happier than to see the constantly insufferably smug David Stern begging for change on the corner, but that&#8217;s I guess too much to ask.</p>
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		<title>By: BigBlueAL</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346821</link>
		<dc:creator>BigBlueAL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It was interesting hearing Barkley and Reggie Miller on NBATV tonight saying the players better become realistic and basically take the 50/50 split and most of the owners demands or miss the entire season.  Surprised that they seemed to be mostly on the owners side for the most part.  Or really I guess admitting that the owners will win and that the players have to basically accept whatever the owners offer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was interesting hearing Barkley and Reggie Miller on NBATV tonight saying the players better become realistic and basically take the 50/50 split and most of the owners demands or miss the entire season.  Surprised that they seemed to be mostly on the owners side for the most part.  Or really I guess admitting that the owners will win and that the players have to basically accept whatever the owners offer.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346820</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346820</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would tend to agree, cgreene, but the way they’re talking, it sounds like the owner’s position via the system is so dramatically messed up that there would be little upside to the players in the future. Again, it sounds like the players ultimately &lt;b&gt;were&lt;/b&gt; willing to take the 50/50 split when they learned that, &quot;Oh yeah, we&#039;re also going to be dramatically changing everything about the system.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would tend to agree, cgreene, but the way they’re talking, it sounds like the owner’s position via the system is so dramatically messed up that there would be little upside to the players in the future. Again, it sounds like the players ultimately <b>were</b> willing to take the 50/50 split when they learned that, &#8220;Oh yeah, we&#8217;re also going to be dramatically changing everything about the system.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: cgreene</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346818</link>
		<dc:creator>cgreene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346818</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@latke i generally agree.  my premise was that the penalty for mistakes is too onerous.  too many nba players do not play hard enough each night and i think the league has a deserved rep for that.  the difference in quality and intensity of play in the reg season vs playoffs is wider than in any other sport.  and my opinion is that of someone who loves the nba far more than nfl and mlb.  the owners are indeed getting short changed on their long term investments in too many cases imo.

that said, the combination of changes to the bri and system that the owners are demanding are ridiculous.  no other sport gives players less than 52% bri.  if i were the union i would be more likely to give on system because bri has upside.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@latke i generally agree.  my premise was that the penalty for mistakes is too onerous.  too many nba players do not play hard enough each night and i think the league has a deserved rep for that.  the difference in quality and intensity of play in the reg season vs playoffs is wider than in any other sport.  and my opinion is that of someone who loves the nba far more than nfl and mlb.  the owners are indeed getting short changed on their long term investments in too many cases imo.</p>
<p>that said, the combination of changes to the bri and system that the owners are demanding are ridiculous.  no other sport gives players less than 52% bri.  if i were the union i would be more likely to give on system because bri has upside.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Cronin (@brian_cronin)</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346817</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cronin (@brian_cronin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What&#039;s crazy to me is the reports that apparently some owners were outraged that the league even offered 50/50! There were some owners who wanted no more than 51.5/48.5 in favor of the owner&#039;s. Insanity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s crazy to me is the reports that apparently some owners were outraged that the league even offered 50/50! There were some owners who wanted no more than 51.5/48.5 in favor of the owner&#8217;s. Insanity.</p>
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		<title>By: KnickfaninNJ</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346816</link>
		<dc:creator>KnickfaninNJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t agree the players should have taken the 50:50 offer from the owners.  It wasn&#039;t like taking this would have resulted in a deal.  It was more like the owners were saying &quot;make a big concession on pay and then we will talk about other concessions&quot;.  The players agents think the union isn&#039;t tough enough,  not that they are too difficult.  I think the union is trying to be reasonable but there is no give onthe partof the owners at all.  The union has to be willing to say no at some point or the owners will just keep on taking and taking]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree the players should have taken the 50:50 offer from the owners.  It wasn&#8217;t like taking this would have resulted in a deal.  It was more like the owners were saying &#8220;make a big concession on pay and then we will talk about other concessions&#8221;.  The players agents think the union isn&#8217;t tough enough,  not that they are too difficult.  I think the union is trying to be reasonable but there is no give onthe partof the owners at all.  The union has to be willing to say no at some point or the owners will just keep on taking and taking</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346815</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I did hear rumblings to that effect. If that&#039;s the case, and the owners really are ratcheting up their jackal-ness to that level, then obviously it&#039;s a different story. Then you&#039;d have to think the National Labor Relations Board would have to see the league as being decidedly at fault. 

Problem with that scenario, obviously, is it could take months to work its way through the system. At that point, it becomes a pretty heavy gamble on the part of the owners, who could then stand to lose a hell of a lot more than the players. 

Cripes my head hurts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did hear rumblings to that effect. If that&#8217;s the case, and the owners really are ratcheting up their jackal-ness to that level, then obviously it&#8217;s a different story. Then you&#8217;d have to think the National Labor Relations Board would have to see the league as being decidedly at fault. </p>
<p>Problem with that scenario, obviously, is it could take months to work its way through the system. At that point, it becomes a pretty heavy gamble on the part of the owners, who could then stand to lose a hell of a lot more than the players. </p>
<p>Cripes my head hurts.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Cronin (@brian_cronin)</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346814</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cronin (@brian_cronin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346814</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the players were on board with taking the 50/50, Jim. It was that they were apparently &lt;b&gt;widely&lt;/b&gt; far apart on everything else. The players were basically saying, &quot;Okay, we&#039;ll give you 50/50, which is an unprecedented 7% concession in BRI, something no other players union has come close to - not even the NHL and they were bent over a table and rogered good by the owners, but we only want minor changes to the other parts of the system.&quot;

And the owners, naturally, wanted drastic changes (including some sort of super-duper luxury tax to punish teams like the Mavericks and Lakers from continually going over the cap - something that the Knicks would plan on doing, as well).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the players were on board with taking the 50/50, Jim. It was that they were apparently <b>widely</b> far apart on everything else. The players were basically saying, &#8220;Okay, we&#8217;ll give you 50/50, which is an unprecedented 7% concession in BRI, something no other players union has come close to &#8211; not even the NHL and they were bent over a table and rogered good by the owners, but we only want minor changes to the other parts of the system.&#8221;</p>
<p>And the owners, naturally, wanted drastic changes (including some sort of super-duper luxury tax to punish teams like the Mavericks and Lakers from continually going over the cap &#8211; something that the Knicks would plan on doing, as well).</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346813</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Cavan (@JPCavan)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The more I think about it -- and as cold as it no doubt sounds -- the players should&#039;ve taken 50-50 and worked from there. &lt;b&gt;That&lt;/b&gt; would&#039;ve been good PR. In fact, I think you can argue that the resulting sympathy and enthusiasm on the part of fans would&#039;ve resulted in a larger overall BRI, theoretically erasing many -- if not all -- of the losses incurred by taking the crappy deal. 

Also, and I know this is totally random / borderline irrelevant, but I find it interesting that Stern -- a guy who&#039;s donated almost exclusively to Democratic candidates over the years -- once again finds himself representing the theoretical &quot;other side&quot; in the debate of labor vs. ownership. Obviously, pro sports should &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; be viewed through the prism of your ordinary labor scenario. But still, it makes you wonder whether Stern really &lt;i&gt;believes&lt;/i&gt; in his side of the argument, or whether it&#039;s simply a matter of necessity vis-a-vis his position. What tipped me off was a quote from Hunter which in turn quotes Stern as saying something to the effect of &quot;this is the deal the owners &lt;b&gt;must&lt;/b&gt; have.&quot;

Anyway, just a couple of random musings on this bile-dark day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more I think about it &#8212; and as cold as it no doubt sounds &#8212; the players should&#8217;ve taken 50-50 and worked from there. <b>That</b> would&#8217;ve been good PR. In fact, I think you can argue that the resulting sympathy and enthusiasm on the part of fans would&#8217;ve resulted in a larger overall BRI, theoretically erasing many &#8212; if not all &#8212; of the losses incurred by taking the crappy deal. </p>
<p>Also, and I know this is totally random / borderline irrelevant, but I find it interesting that Stern &#8212; a guy who&#8217;s donated almost exclusively to Democratic candidates over the years &#8212; once again finds himself representing the theoretical &#8220;other side&#8221; in the debate of labor vs. ownership. Obviously, pro sports should <b>not</b> be viewed through the prism of your ordinary labor scenario. But still, it makes you wonder whether Stern really <i>believes</i> in his side of the argument, or whether it&#8217;s simply a matter of necessity vis-a-vis his position. What tipped me off was a quote from Hunter which in turn quotes Stern as saying something to the effect of &#8220;this is the deal the owners <b>must</b> have.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anyway, just a couple of random musings on this bile-dark day.</p>
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		<title>By: latke</title>
		<link>http://KnickerBlogger.Net/nba-cancels-the-first-two-weeks-of-2011-12-season/#comment-346812</link>
		<dc:creator>latke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://KnickerBlogger.Net/?p=8440#comment-346812</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;comment-346811&quot;&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-346811&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jim&#032;Cavan&#032;&#040;&#064;JPCavan&#041;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;: 
I WAS FOULED!


Seems like there are quite a few TrueHoopers in NYC — might be interesting to see if we can’t field a few teams out of it. 


If this goes down, I’m in.


&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If I&#039;m in the area at the time, I&#039;d be in. I would even avoid cigarettes for the entire day of the game.

@cgreene

I think if the owners agreed on 53%, the players would be completely fine with the modifications you mention, depending on their specifics.

The thing is, running a team should not be simple. Bad GMs should have to pay for their bad decisions, rather than having a do-over button for every mess up. There would many more deserving players who would get screwed by a more restraining CBA than there would undeserving/overpaid ones.

Think about the teams that succeed in the NBA. How many terrible signings have they had? The spurs with Richard Jefferson maybe, but even there they didn&#039;t give up anything other than cap space for him. Good GMs don&#039;t take stupid risks.

There&#039;s some sense to the argument that these terrible contracts are too punishing, but in most cases, if you play your cards right, you can turn an old team full of overpaid players into a young .500 team with a very promising future in 3-4 years. You just have to commit to the rebuilding process, something the knicks stubbornly refused to do. That to me sounds fair.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="comment-346811">
<p><strong><a href="#comment-346811" rel="nofollow">Jim&#032;Cavan&#032;&#040;&#064;JPCavan&#041;</a></strong>:<br />
I WAS FOULED!</p>
<p>Seems like there are quite a few TrueHoopers in NYC — might be interesting to see if we can’t field a few teams out of it. </p>
<p>If this goes down, I’m in.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If I&#8217;m in the area at the time, I&#8217;d be in. I would even avoid cigarettes for the entire day of the game.</p>
<p>@cgreene</p>
<p>I think if the owners agreed on 53%, the players would be completely fine with the modifications you mention, depending on their specifics.</p>
<p>The thing is, running a team should not be simple. Bad GMs should have to pay for their bad decisions, rather than having a do-over button for every mess up. There would many more deserving players who would get screwed by a more restraining CBA than there would undeserving/overpaid ones.</p>
<p>Think about the teams that succeed in the NBA. How many terrible signings have they had? The spurs with Richard Jefferson maybe, but even there they didn&#8217;t give up anything other than cap space for him. Good GMs don&#8217;t take stupid risks.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s some sense to the argument that these terrible contracts are too punishing, but in most cases, if you play your cards right, you can turn an old team full of overpaid players into a young .500 team with a very promising future in 3-4 years. You just have to commit to the rebuilding process, something the knicks stubbornly refused to do. That to me sounds fair.</p>
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