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Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Mike D’Antoni out as Knicks coach

As was reported by Yahoo!’s Adrian Wojnarowski and subsequently confirmed by numerous sources, Mike D’Antoni is no longer the coach of the New York Knicks.

Sources are saying that the move constitutes a “mutual decision” — not a firing, not a resignation, but more a simple recognition that the increasingly toxic atmosphere engulfing the organization has reached its tipping point.

Mike Woodson, brought to New York during the off-season to be the Knicks’ “defensive coordinator,” will take over as interim coach starting tonight as the Knicks take on the Blazers at the Garden.

In the past few weeks, tensions between D’Antoni and Carmelo Anthony — for whom the Knicks played a princely sum prior to last year’s trade deadline — have been growing, with the disgruntled forward expressing concern over his lack of touches in the offense.

In his three and a half years at the helm of the Knicks, D’Antoni compiled 121-167 record, all while managing a roster in constant flux.

I think I speak for many on the blog when I say that, for all his quirks, faults, and stubbornness, D’Antoni’s efforts to revitalize a franchised mired in mismanagement — and to do so with a brand of basketball that in many ways harkened to the halcyon principles of the team’s two lone titles — were never truly given a fair chance.

Then again, in this the most savage of industries, how many really are?

253 comments on “Mike D’Antoni out as Knicks coach

  1. Z

    D’Antoni did nothing during his 4 years to merit staying. BUT, I hate that the organization is (apparently) choosing Carmelo Anthony over him. (And over Donnie Walsh). Fuck this team.

  2. ROUGH

    I feel really sad. MDA is a really good coach. I’m not sure this is a good situation for the Knicks, even if they temprorarily improve their winning record.

  3. Ben R

    Marbury story all over again:

    Marbury/Melo comes home to NY to save the franchise. Plays well in half a season, NY makes playoffs gets swept by Boston after Amare/Thomas gets hurt. Next season starts with huge fanfare Knicks struggle out of the gate the headcoach gets fired at midseason. Now we will play even worse to finish the season miss the playoffs have no pick and hire a big name coach who will fail next year and be screwed for the next 3 years.

    Over/under on when Melo eats vaseline 2.5 years.

  4. Z

    The annoying thing about the D’Antoni era for me is that Coach was brought in, I believe, to help Walsh shed contracts. His offensive system was supposed to produce gaudy numbers for Randolph, Curry, Crawford, and Jeffries, so as to make their contracts tradeable.

    As it was, the only person to actually improve under D’Antoni was Jeffries, but it still cost Walsh a ton of assets to move him.

    Really, through all of the zillions of players that passed through the organization over the past four years, no one came here and got that “D’Antoni Bump” with the exception of 1/2 a year of Chris Duhon, 1/2 a year of Ray Felton, and two weeks of Jeremy Lin.

  5. xcat01

    So this officially marks the end of Linsanity as you can expect Davis and probably JR Smith to start tonight. I bet Stat gets traded after the game tonight.

  6. bockadoo

    What a brutal shame. He was never given a chance. When he did while Melo was hurt, we saw glimpses of what could have been. What a screwed up organization. If I had any balls I wouldn’t watch another damn game but I can’t help it. Why would anyone EVER think Melo would be a good match for his system. I think the guy was a class act and will miss him. It never would have worked though, so one of ‘em had to go. I think they made the wrong choice.

  7. NattyIce

    Z: D’Antoni did nothing during his 4 years to merit staying. BUT, I hate that the organization is (apparently) choosing Carmelo Anthony over him. (And over Donnie Walsh). Fuck this team.

    I don’t disagree, but, what you gonna do?

    Carmelo has a guaranteed contract and some unique talent that wasn’t, nor would ever, be properly utilized under MDA’s system.

    Then again, there’s no guarantee we could win with ‘Melo, but, MDA’s system, is proven to work with the right parts.

    I’d wish they never traded for ‘Melo it’s too late now.

    I don’t see this so much as ‘Melo pushing out MDA; rather, this is more Dolan, forcing MDA’s hand.

    Sorry for MDA but he’s better off. His reputation is primarily intact. He’ll coach again some day. Just hopefully for him, he’ll have an ownership which supports him, as opposed to undermining him at every chance.

  8. ROUGH

    Truth be said, MDA never had a chance in New York. First two years spent on rebuilding; third year’s young and promising team was destroyed for the sake of our underperforming primadonna; and we see what happened this year.

    Well, our main primadonna will hear it for goooood from the crowd tonight. Can’t blame them.

  9. ess-dog

    This is soooo fucked. Maybe Melo should be the new GM/coach/star player? He clearly thinks he’s qualified.
    Mike is better off…

  10. ephus

    The first two years of MDA were just marking time to clear out cap space. In particular, the 2009=10 roster was painful.

    Last year, we saw D’Antoni run his system for the first three months of the season, with middling results. The Felton-Amar’e PnR was alternatively wonderful and awful. After the trade for Melo and Billups, the team was not running a D’Antoni offense.

    This year, D’Antoni did not figure out a way to get value from all of his talented parts. Using ‘Melo as a point forward was a failed experiment. _____ as PG failed horribly. Linsanity worked while Amar’e and ‘Melo were out, but that was a product of favorable schedule and taking teams by surprise. The two best teams that the Knicks beat during Linsanity (Lakers and Mavs) have old, slow PGs who were vulnerable to Lin’s quickness in the PnR. Once ‘Melo and Amar’e came back, the team did not click. Today was a shit show as everyone pointed fingers at each other in the press parcelling out blame.

    In all, MDA gave the Knicks the best that he had, but it was not going to work with the players that were accumulated.

    Now that MDA is gone, I still think it is possible that the ‘Melo/Chandler for Howard/Turk/(Duhon?) trade will occur. It would be a repeat of last year’s Jazz debacle, where Sloan and DWill got into a pissing match, and both were gone in the same week.

    If you assume that the Knicks’ current roster remains, then the big question is whether there is any coach/style that can effectively utilize these parts.

    Pray for Phil!

  11. Eazy B

    So upsetting. There’s no denying that this team has underperformed and Melo and D’antoni have plenty to be blamed for (along with most everyone else), but the ludicrously short leash that everyone is forced to operate with in New York is disgusting. This organization completely lacks poise and has such little confidence and faith in everything it does. I’m sick of it. Have some balls and take an honest to goodness chance with something.

    God forbid the Knicks lose these games (@ Boston, @ Dallas, @ San Antonio, @ Milwaukee, vs Philadelphia, @ Chicago) after undergoing YET ANOTHER mid-season roster overhaul in a condensed season without practice opportunities.

    I’m not saying that things were definitely going to get better, but can’t you even give it a chance for success? What would we lose by playing out the season?

    There’s nothing to glorify about the cliche New York impatience. Bunch of fucking children.

  12. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    sorry had to re-post this
    Ben R
    ” D’Antoni is gone that really sucks. My only hope is that this follows Utahs model: star pushes out head coach is traded later that week anyway”.

    “Well at least now we’ll get to see it wasn’t D’Antoni’s fault. Very much like when we had Marbury and the coach “couldn’t figure out how to win”. Bring on Larry Brown part 2.”

    The sad part is even though coach Woodson IMO is a good coach he really is a scape goat.

    What this organization wants is a great headline coach in the realm of Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, or, Hubie Brown, which i would take in a heart beat. These Coaches or anybody of there caliber will ever come to the Knicks with a player who has more control of the team than the previously vacated coach.

    Sad to say but we just downgraded into a rabbit hole of putrid coaching and overplayed players mirroring the Isiah Thomas years!!!!!!!!!! No wonder Donnie Walsh would not take the Job unless he had 100% control of the team. Smh i have lost faith with this organization and i am truly hoping D12 goes to the Nets , cause I’m literally think about committing suicide and jumping ship to the Brooklyn Nets.

  13. dogrufus

    xcat01:
    So this officially marks the end of Linsanity as you can expect Davis and probably JR Smith to start tonight.I bet Stat gets traded after the game tonight.

    That would require somebody being willing to trade for an uninsured max player who’s washed up at 29, plays no defense, and isn’t even top 50 on offense.

    Get real, we probably couldn’t move STATue for nothing to a team 30 million under the cap even if we had a 1st rounder to package with him.

  14. Nick C.

    Man if this team doesn’t get rolling it is gonna get ugly, if that is possible. Who will Stephen A. Smith have to blame now.

    One question if these guys are so great why is it only HOF or near HOF coaches that keep getting proposed. It’s kinda hypocritical to blame Dolan et. al. for beign a “starF*er” for wanting Melo and then turning around and saying we need Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, JVG.

    Was Thibs the last competent asssitant in the NBA? are there any college guys? or it it just that there’s only so much people can follow and up and coming coaches just ain’t one of them.

  15. Owen

    Man, I am so glad Melo is finally going to get his touches and prove how good he actually is…..

  16. Caleb

    Z:
    The annoying thing about the D’Antoni era for me is that Coach was brought in, I believe, to help Walsh shed contracts. His offensive system was supposed to produce gaudy numbers for Randolph, Curry, Crawford, and Jeffries, so as to make their contracts tradeable.

    As it was, the only person to actually improve under D’Antoni was Jeffries, but it still cost Walsh a ton of assets to move him.

    Really, through all of the zillions of players that passed through the organization over the past four years, no one came here and got that “D’Antoni Bump” with the exception of 1/2 a year of Chris Duhon, 1/2 a year of Ray Felton, and two weeks of Jeremy Lin.

    David Lee…

    On a lower tier, Landry Fields, Bill Walker, Shawne Williams & Steve Novak.
    Landry Fields…

  17. Richmond County

    You can’t trade STAT (uninsured), Melo (admitting DEN trade was wrong decision), anyone else (tough to match salaries with minimum contract guys), draft someone (No first round picks), or sign a free agent (no cap room). Cutting ties with D’antoni is literally the only option left to make a profound change anywhere in the near future.

    That said, I don’t agree with the decision more than anything because it means that the organization sided with Melo despite his lack of leadership on or off the court. I don’t think it’s the coach’s fault if you break sets and pout when you don’t get the ball.

  18. JLam

    Gideon will be happy. I been bashing MDA this past week but I do feel sorry for him to leave under these circumstances

  19. er

    Lol facious much

    Owen:
    Man, I am so glad Melo is finally going to get his touches and prove how good he actually is…..

  20. ephus

    Nick C.: One question if these guys are so great why is it only HOF or near HOF coaches that keep getting proposed. It’s kinda hypocritical to blame Dolan et. al. for beign a “starF*er” for wanting Melo and then turning around and saying we need Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, JVG

    I have been rooting for the return of Phil Jackson since he was coaching the Albany Patroons. I do not know if talent here would work well in the Triangle, but I want the Knicks to invest the time to find out.

    If not Phil, then the Knicks need to bring in a coach who can take command of a disfunctional relationship between ‘Melo and the rest of the roster. Until he improves (not this season), Amar’e is untradeable. So the new coach is going to need to motivate both ‘Melo and Amar’e to give full effort.

  21. RastaPappa

    Oh boy, this went wrong! MDA was lost, but who’s going to say Melo now STFU girl!!! So who’s leaving next Melo?? Lin maybe…………

  22. NattyIce

    ROUGH: Well, our main primadonna will hear it for goooood from the crowd tonight. Can’t blame them.

    Man. I can’t blame them either. But we gotta support our team. They’re in a tough spot. ‘Melo didn’t personally want to kick out MDA. And he does try. I don’t think we should be too hard on ‘Melo for lacking the leadership skills of Messier or Barkley.

  23. hoolahoop

    I hope the knicks lose tonight – and all their games this season.
    At least we had two weeks of funsanity.

  24. Degree_Absolute

    Repost:

    Seriously, fuck Carmelo Anthony. From my vantage point, he is just a complete natural disaster of teammate and player. His greed ripped apart a really fun Knicks team last year and his inability to fit in stained and then ended the tenure of the best Knicks coach since Van Gundy. Even the miracle that Jeremy Lin’s Knicks were in the month of February could not withstand the pure destructive power of Carmelo Anthony. If you are at the Garden tonight please, please, please vociferously boo this tsunami-hurricane hybrid of a human.

  25. limpidgimp

    The whole thing is dysfunctional. I just shake my head. I guess there’s not much to salvage from this season, so whatever.

  26. ROUGH

    NattyIce: Man.I can’t blame them either.But we gotta support our team.They’re in a tough spot.‘Melo didn’t personally want to kick out MDA.And he does try.I don’t think we should be too hard on ‘Melo for lacking the leadership skills of Messier or Barkley.

    Melo, directly or indirectly, MUST have something to do with this. I lost a lot from the respect I had for his talents. It is not the first time this kind of shit happens to the Knicks. Pitty.

  27. BigBlueAL

    D’Antoni and the Knicks made a mutual decision because of conflicting views of the future. Wouldve loved to have been a fly in the wall in the meeting of D’Antoni and Dolan today lol

  28. dogrufus

    Owen:
    Man, I am so glad Melo is finally going to get his touches and prove how good he actually is…..

    He’s about 50% TS good thus far this season. Players don’t generally get more efficient when made to shoulder more offensive load.

  29. BigBlueAL

    The best part is today there were a bunch of headline grabbing articles in the NY papers yet D’Antoni re-signing was broken by a national writer. Barely anything today at all so far from Berman, Isola etc.

  30. johnlocke

    +1
    Definitely was upset by some of MDA’s poor decisions, but even more annoyed by Carmelo’s piss poor play at this $20M price tag this season…and his smiling, lick-lipping, jovial teen boy persona in the midst of his and the team’s pathetic performances.

    Is Mike Woodson the answer? Hell no! What happens to the assistants? D’Antoni’s brother, The asst coach that worked with Lin?

    There goes the playoffs…

    Z:
    D’Antoni did nothing during his 4 years to merit staying. BUT, I hate that the organization is (apparently) choosing Carmelo Anthony over him. (And over Donnie Walsh). Fuck this team.

  31. johnlocke

    Yup — he is definitely getting booed tonight.

    ROUGH:
    Our main primadonna will hear it for good from the crowd tonight. Can’t blame them.

  32. Knicks4Eva

    I’m glad something changed.

    I don’t know enough about the situation (only what I’ve read…just like the rest of you) to blame Melo entirely for Pringles’ departure. Perhaps he was flat out sick of the bullshit (who wouldn’t be)?

    But, I will say that the idea that Melo’s greed tore the team apart at trade time is overstated and perhaps wrong. First, why wouldn’t it be Dolan’s greed? Next, what Melo did at trade time was make it clear where he wanted to go. It’s pretty easy to say that any one of us would be willing to give up extra $$ in his position by waiting for free agency. It’s a statement that flies in the face of the entire recorded history of human nature, however, and I for one can’t say I would have. So, enough with the greed angle.

    On the court…which is all I care about…it wasn’t working. Now the shoe has dropped and we get to see if it can work another way. I don’t have much hope right now, but I do have some. And I want the Knicks to win tonight and every night, regardless of the drama.

  33. nicos

    Not happy at all. Not sure what you can do with Melo now- his reputation is pretty toxic- between that and his crappy play this year you’d be getting pennies on the dollar with any trade. And I’m sure about half of the Knicks team would like to wring his neck right now. I’ve been generally supportive of Melo but he’ll deserve every boo he gets tonight.

  34. villainx

    Like I said prior, I thought D’Antoni just needed a little more time, the offense was coming together the past couple of games.

    At the same time, D’Antoni could have been more forceful about establishing the offense. I want better defense, but minimally coach had to at least get the offense to gel first.

    I don’t think the new coach changes things too much, or at least don’t impact it too negatively.

    I still like the team. It’s unfortunate that things turn out this way, but I’m rooting for the team, not booing. Still playoff at stakes, and things can improve.

  35. formido

    What a stupid, stupid turn of events. This offense was going to come around AND the defense was great and getting better when Chandler wasn’t out hurt. This was going to be Suns + defense, if not by the end of this season, by next season. The recent losing streak was utterly predictable and irrelevant. The Knicks management is so horrible it’s beyond words.

  36. letssee

    If anybody plays fantasy league, I say pick up baron davis. With MDA went Jeremy’s minutes.

  37. iserp

    I truly think that the Knicks would fare much better if all their fans (and their owner) didn’t have a nervous breakdown each time the team wins 3 consecutive games or loses 3 consecutive games.

    Someone is saying: this is Marbury 2.0, but the fact is that Marbury was a good player, as Zach Randolph is. The problem were the Curry/James Jordans of the world, changing coaches every now and then, the lost picks, and the high expectations.

    I became a fan of the Knicks before Stoudemire came here, because i liked what i saw in this blog. This was a lively community with positive ideas about how to win a championship, and i liked it. But now i realize that most fans are a bunch of whiners that overreact every time. It just happened that two years ago everyone had an scapegoat that was out of the team (Isaiah Thomas), so everyone was in wait & see mode.

    You know what? if you trade Melo now, he will do OK everywhere else, because he is a good player. Perhaps he isn’t the player you wished to trade for, because he is in Miami. But now everyone is second guessing Anthony, and deciding who is a friend or an enemy among our players. I despise that attitude of many of you.

    If you wanna talk about MDA’s value, do so, but in its own merits. D’Antoni hasn’t adapted to the players they brought here. Or if you want, the directive hasn’t adapted to D’Antoni system, which we know it is a succesful one. I think there’s no point in having D’Antoni as a coach if he is going to play Chandler as Amare in Phoenix; wants Amare to be a floor spacing big; and transform Melo into The Matrix. When he has played that system (with Lin and Novak), it has looked good, but that’s not enough to be a contender, and hasnt de pieces to pull it off at high level. He tried Melo as a point forward, but looked clueless doing so. Let’s try another coach for a more traditional built team, I am OK with that.

  38. nicos

    Also, wouldn’t be surprised if Woodson was one of those “anonymous sources” leaking stuff out to the media.

  39. Eternal OptiKnist

    I posted this on another thread….As a D’antoni supporter, i’m ok with him not being back next year…..but did we need midseason drama that will produce ZERO results?? The good thing is its not a lockout year and there’s plenty of practice time for Mike Woodson to implement a new system. There’s also 50 games to get it right. LMAO….typical Knicks dysfunction. I’ll tell you this…Melo better have some motherfucking thick-ass skin, because if we don’t turn it around, he’s got NO ONE else to blame. I liked D’antoni but i hope it was his fault so that we can start winning and things get better. If not, Melo is Starbury 2.0…i could see him eating vaseline.

  40. KnickfaninNJ

    Seems like Dolan puts having stars that sell tickets a much higher priority than having a coherent team that plays fun to watch basketball. I think this is a fundamental conflict with D’Antoni. If Carmelo doesn’t get enough touches, he won’t get as many points and then NY might not sell as many tickets. So when the quotes are saying something like “disagreed about the direction of the team”, they probably are not kidding.

    I don’t know why Dolan doesn’t realize that when the Knicks were winning in the past the garden sold out all the time.

    The Knicks lost Monday night but looked good, relatively speaking. Now I don’t know what they will do. Judging from seeing Mike Woodson’s Atlanta teams play we could be in for some boring basketball.

    JKG,

    I think you remember the same Frazier comment about Jerry Sloan that I do. Frazier was asked who was the person who defended him best and said Jerry Sloan.

  41. Eternal OptiKnist

    another repost…My other problem with the D’antoni pushed out on the same day the melo story broke is that this locker room is now divided. Major players on this team (on the record) love D’antoni..Lin, Amare, Jeffries, Fields. This is not good. Players running the team sets a bad precedent.

  42. Gomzd

    I think getting rid of Mike is important, he was never going to lead a team to the championship, what im worried about is that Wojnarowski also reported that Tyson, Amare, Davis and even Lin are quite upset with the coaching change… this could be bad having key guys like that truly unhappy is never good

  43. Z

    Caleb: David Lee…

    On a lower tier, Landry Fields, Bill Walker, Shawne Williams & Steve Novak.
    Landry Fields…

    Yeah, Lee got the perception bump, I guess. And hey, we were able to trade him for, essentially, 1 year of a perpetually injured Ronnie Turiaf.

    The others, well… perhaps we can still come out on top. Shawne it’s too late to cash in on, but maybe we can sell off Walker, Novak, and Fields in the next 24 hours. All three of them are officially toast here in NY anyway.

  44. Gomzd

    Eternal OptiKnist:
    another repost…My other problem with the D’antoni pushed out on the same day the melo story broke is that this locker room is now divided. Major players on this team (on the record) love D’antoni..Lin, Amare, Jeffries, Fields. This is not good.Players running the team sets a bad precedent.

    yeah that, beat me to it

  45. KJG

    after what has happened you would think we were approaching the “fire or keep your coach” deadline… melo stays (and sucks ((the life out of the team) and the fans)))… i watch games with simultaneous hope and despair…

  46. Eternal OptiKnist

    I’m saying Melo better have thick skin…because if we dont start winning i fear he cracks under the pressure like Marbury did…you can see the ‘sulk’ in him. Just my opinion, but i dont think his teammates like him. He could wind up eating vaseline.

  47. Owen

    Dogrufus – I was kidding. But i predict a return to microscopically above average ts%’s the rest of the way for Melo. He’s going to get his touches and his points and rehabilitate his reputation as the best pure scorer in the game, which is what’s important….

    Speaking of Knicks small forwards, we had one here last year.

    SO GLAD we traded him for a clutch superstar like Melo…

    http://www.youtube.com/watchfeature=player_embedded&v=paV9T8CjS2E

  48. bockadoo

    Too bad Jeffries has been hurt lately. He and Chandler are the glue guys we can’t do without. I think we would have won two or three of these games had they been here and it wouldn’t seem so damn bad. Timing is everything. I really thought we had talent and depth at every position and were gonna eventually start to roll. These other real good teams have been together for a while. It’s a tough league – you can’t just kick butt from the beginning. If Melo sacrificed like Pierce, we’d have been damn good.

  49. Eternal OptiKnist

    I’m not saying we should have given MDA an extension…but let him finsh the season. We’ve achieved nothing more than creating some pretty significant drama late in the season.

  50. EB

    More mid-season changes… Just what we needed :/

    D’antoni was never given a fair shot with the revolving door of players that came in. He is an offensive genius and I disagree with anyone who says he doesn’t make changes to his system. He runs all sorts of crazy stuff until he finds what works. Sure he irritates me with how he manages in-game but still one hell of a basketball mind.

  51. Frank

    It’s all just so stupid and self-defeating.

    I have been one of Melo’s staunchest defenders here but I cannot defend this. It cannot be any clearer that he was the instigator of this, both with his actions on the court and through his handlers.

    The worst thing is that MDA’s end was coming anyway. Another coach was coming anyway at season’s end. The only thing this accomplished for Melo is the entire NYK fan base turning against him, and even worse, his teammates KNOW this is his doing. Who else could possibly be to blame? Chandler was having one of his best seasons. Lin obviously owes his career to D’Antoni. Amare has been MDA’s biggest supporter. No one else has the clout to make this happen. This is purely Melo and his handlers and it’s really horrible. This locker room is going to be even more toxic than it was — all 3 weeks after it was love-fest in there during the height of Linsanity.

    The only way out of this for Melo is for him to really freaking turn it on now and re-win the support of the fans by playing well, playing smart, playing unselfishly. I don’t think he has any idea how bad it can get in NYC if you mess with our teams.

  52. Z

    Caleb: David Lee…

    On a lower tier, Landry Fields, Bill Walker, Shawne Williams & Steve Novak.
    Landry Fields…

    And while we’re at it, may as well trade Lin tonight too. It’s not definite that he is the beneficiary of D’Antoni’s PG honeymoon period, but check out the first 700 minutes of Duhon and Felton in the system:

    Duhon (2008): 10.4 pts/36; 7.6 assist/36; 43% FG

    Felton (2011): 17.3 pts/36; 7.7 assists/36; 47% FG

    All the above numbers represent the best 700 minutes of their respective careers (some by a long shot).

  53. Will the Thrill

    Now there are REALLY no excuses for Melo and his followers. Let’s see what he’s made of.

  54. KJG

    bockadoo:
    If Melo sacrificed like Pierce, we’d have been damn good.

    funny thing is he’d tell you that he’s been sacrificing the whole time!!!… damn this man…

  55. Frank

    btw, say what you want about Stephen A Smith but he is dialed in. He called “the Decision” weeks before it happened. He said D’Antoni would be out within days. Done and done.

  56. xcat01

    @42, I would count on BDiddy getting more burn. Dolan just signed another big endosement deal in Taiwan. I bet those new investors want to see more Lin then Davis. BTW, I think that is also the reason that Lin was still starting and closing games even though Davis had earned a shot at it.

  57. Eternal OptiKnist

    Z: And while we’re at it, may as well trade Lin tonight too. It’s not definite that he is the beneficiary of D’Antoni’s PG honeymoon period, but check out the first 700 minutes of Duhon and Felton in the system:Duhon (2008): 10.4 pts/36; 7.6 assist/36; 43% FGFelton (2011): 17.3 pts/36; 7.7 assists/36; 47% FGAll the above numbers represent the best 700 minutes of their respective careers (some by a long shot).

    Great post…you really hope he isnt…because he’s not going anywhere (not that i want him to)…he’s a cash cow.

  58. taggart4800

    If Anthony is traded for Dwight then I forgive him for his lack of effort as I am sure he would have been aware for some time before us

  59. Eternal OptiKnist

    Will the Thrill: Now there are REALLY no excuses for Melo and his followers. Let’s see what he’s made of.

    Yup….melo is naked out there now. For the record, I hope i’m wrong about him…i don’t care if Ronald McDonald played the 3…I just want to win. Its about the Knicks, not any of these a-holes..

  60. er

    Lol now everyone loves ” dumbtoni” wow knicks fans wow

    Z: And while we’re at it, may as well trade Lin tonight too. It’s not definite that he is the beneficiary of D’Antoni’s PG honeymoon period, but check out the first 700 minutes of Duhon and Felton in the system:

    Duhon (2008): 10.4 pts/36; 7.6 assist/36; 43% FG

    Felton (2011): 17.3 pts/36; 7.7 assists/36; 47% FG

    All the above numbers represent the best 700 minutes of their respective careers (some by a long shot).

  61. Eternal OptiKnist

    taggart4800: If Anthony is traded for Dwight then I forgive him for his lack of effort as I am sure he would have been aware for some time before us

    Melo going nowhere…learn to like him.

  62. A Voice of Reason

    What gets me here is that everyone is a GM quality mind and knows whats best for this team. I get it, Melo makes too much. They all make too much. To trash him because MDA gets fired is borderline childish. Take a damn breath and think about what this could mean…

    Maybe we will stop leaving 15 seconds on the shot clock 25 times a game and promote defense with a ball control style of play instead of spotting teams extra possessions every damn game.

    Maybe Steve Nash is an offensive genius, and MDA was the guy (ala Mike Brown) who inherited his greatness.

    Maybe a more traditionally sound offense could work with the PIECES WE HAVE.

    Maybe we will actually take on a defensive culture, and begin standing up on our home floor.

    Maybe we will get inspired play from the players who are actually STILL HERE, despite you all wanting to start Novak, Jeffries, and Harrelson…

    Linsanity ended about 8 days ago. Melo didn’t end it, the scouting reports did. Lin will be fine, but he was not Kyrie Irving before the draft, and he ain’t Kyrie Irving now.

    I don’t mind going against the popular opinion here, because the venom is permeating this site at a rapid pace.

    MDA was as one dimensional as either of our $20M guys, and on a realistic scale of income, the MDA contract was just as bad. Look at coach salaries around the league…MDA was the most overrated coach per dollar BY FAR in this league.

    Good guy, good riddance.

    Let’s Go Knicks

  63. Eternal OptiKnist

    er: Lol now everyone loves ” dumbtoni” wow knicks fans wow

    ?? there were always those who liked him and those who didn’t. And stop with the “dumbtoni”…that is so lame….

  64. Frank

    Well, let’s see what Woodson can do. Regardless of this circus I’m still a NYK fan for life, as nauseating as it feels right now. The WAY MDA was let go is what bothers me, not so much that he’s no longer the coach. Wasn’t it just yesterday that we were all complaining like crazy about him?

    Strange that Woodson was fired after going 54-28 in 9-10. Can anyone remember why? Sure they got swept by Orlando but they DID make the 2nd round of the playoffs with a roster that was not that great.

    btw – Atlanta was 3rd in offensive efficiency and 13th in defensive efficiency that year. Not that bad.

  65. A Voice of Reason

    iserp: If you wanna talk about MDA’s value, do so, but in its own merits. D’Antoni hasn’t adapted to the players they brought here. Or if you want, the directive hasn’t adapted to D’Antoni system, which we know it is a succesful one. I think there’s no point in having D’Antoni as a coach if he is going to play Chandler as Amare in Phoenix; wants Amare to be a floor spacing big; and transform Melo into The Matrix. When he has played that system (with Lin and Novak), it has looked good, but that’s not enough to be a contender, and hasnt de pieces to pull it off at high level. He tried Melo as a point forward, but looked clueless doing so. Let’s try another coach for a more traditional built team, I am OK with that.

    +1

  66. Will the Thrill

    I would love Ronald at the 3..
    But for real, I want Melo to thrive too, but I have seen too much of him failing to expect it. I wish they would just get rid of him too, get some damn chemistry on this team.

    Eternal OptiKnist: Yup….melo is naked out there now.For the record, I hope i’m wrong about him…i don’t care if Ronald McDonald played the 3…I just want to win.Its about the Knicks, not any of these a-holes..

  67. Kikuchiyo

    I’ll weigh by saying that I don’t see D’Antoni as the core of the problem, and I would have liked to see him finish the season. I wish him well.

    Stephen A. Smith, in his infinite wisdom, is on ESPN saying you’ve got to “feed the beast” and that Woodson will do that. I’m not much of an advanced stats guy, but SAS’s theory seems to be that you should run your offense to coordinate with players’ salaries. Apparently, our beasts are starving. Sounds brilliant to me.

    (Eddy Curry might have benefited from the “feed the beast” offense in at least two ways. Too bad we never tried it.)

  68. A Voice of Reason

    Gomzd:
    I think getting rid of Mike is important, he was never going to lead a team to the championship, what im worried about is that Wojnarowski also reported that Tyson, Amare, Davis and even Lin are quite upset with the coaching change… this could be bad having key guys like that truly unhappy is never good

    +123

  69. KnickfaninNJ

    EB:
    More mid-season changes… Just what we needed :/

    D’antoni was never given a fair shot with the revolving door of players that came in. He is an offensive genius and I disagree with anyone who says he doesn’t make changes to his system. He runs all sorts of crazy stuff until he finds what works. Sure he irritates me with how he manages in-game but still one hell of a basketball mind.

    I coudn’t agree more.

  70. Z

    Eternal OptiKnist: ?? there were always those who liked him and those who didn’t.And stop with the “dumbtoni”…that is so lame….

    I didn’t like D’Antoni. My point was that we may as well try to have something to show for his 4 years here, and that would be by trading high on Lin, Novak, and Fields because that is all that his tenure is leaving us with. His system bumped them up, and without him, those guys are going to come crashing down.

  71. KJG

    could have been posted already… but we are thin at coach now
    Sam Amick: Knicks assistants Phil Weber and Dan D’Antoni gone as well, source says. Ties to Mike, obviously

  72. er

    My man I was quoting Knicks fans notice the quotes I never called him that

    Eternal OptiKnist: ?? there were always those who liked him and those who didn’t.And stop with the “dumbtoni”…that is so lame….

  73. hoolahoop

    So, might as well make Melo the coach. And since he’s pissed that the knicks were not taking his personnel opinions seriously, make him the GM, too. Then, just let him take every shot.

  74. Caleb

    Z: And while we’re at it, may as well trade Lin tonight too. It’s not definite that he is the beneficiary of D’Antoni’s PG honeymoon period, but check out the first 700 minutes of Duhon and Felton in the system:

    Duhon (2008): 10.4 pts/36; 7.6 assist/36; 43% FG

    Felton (2011): 17.3 pts/36; 7.7 assists/36; 47% FG

    All the above numbers represent the best 700 minutes of their respective careers (some by a long shot).

    I’m not too worried… Felton was almost as good (and shot better) the year before he got to NYK.

  75. KnickfaninNJ

    Z,

    I think everyone will lose a little in stats, not just Lin, Novak and Fields. D’Antoni’s teams have a pretty high pace and there are just more opportunities to go around. But I don’t think the players minutes will change much. My experience in watching coaching changes is that the new coach may change the system, but his evaluation of talent is usually similar to the previous coaches and the same guys end up getting most of the minutes.

    What might happen is that we get a short bump in effort from the team. Teams almost always do better for a little while after a coaching change. The players seem to want to impress their new boss. That would be nice for the Knicks, but doesn’t mean D’Antoni was a bad coach. He system requires time to practice and a consistent team, which he never really had.

    Who knows, maybe the Nets will hire D’Antoni, They are unimaginative offensively and have a lot of role players who could use open opportunities to score.

  76. d-mar

    I need a time machine. And not a very powerful one, just enough to get me to 3 weeks ago, when it was actually really fun to be a fan of the NY Knicks. I cannot believe it has gotten this bad (again)

  77. Frank

    Lots of buzz online now about Orlando willing to deal DH + whoever for TC + Melo. But Spears from Yahoo! says Dolan won’t do it because he “loves Melo”. This is just too disheartening.

  78. A Voice of Reason

    hoolahoop:
    So, might as well make Melo the coach. And since he’s pissed that the knicks were not taking his personnel opinions seriously, make him the GM, too. Then, just let him take every shot.

    sigh.. Melo did not make this decision. I’m sure MDA wanted out. I’m sure Melo wanted him out. Melo gets paid to play, not make personnel decisions. Dolan has paid him TWENTY-FOUR million dollars. The guy will be ok. His style of play has never won a championship. It never will. His best chance was with the transcendent Steve Nash, who made him look better than he ever was. An NBA level coach who can’t coach DEFENSE!?!? Indefensible at the base, even more indefensible to pay that much for him. I bet his next contract is half that.

  79. Owen

    Z – I agree about D’Antoni being the perfect coach to unload overpaid capkillers. I think I remember saying something similar back when we signed him. And it worked. Is it D’antoni’s fault that we replaced our previous generation of bad contracts (Jeffries, Crawford, Randolph) with arguably even worse contracts?

    I don’t know, i have never thought coaches matter that much. And I think D’Antoni made some questionable roster decisions, especially on the defensive side of the ledger. But it’s pretty clear here that gross mismanagement of player acquisition is the issue, not the coaching.

    I always liked him, I will say that, and I enjoyed hearing him interviewed. He’s a smart guy who you could tell was sympathetic to new ways of looking at the game, especially on the offensive side of the ball.

    I have a feeling this is actually the best possible thing for him, which is heartening. He won’t have to preside over the Knicks missing the playoffs and seeing a lottery pick go out the door….

  80. KJG

    d-mar:
    I need a time machine. And not a very powerful one, just enough to get me to 3 weeks ago, when it was actually really fun to be a fan of the NY Knicks. I cannot believe it has gotten this bad (again)

    i cried some nites… tears of joy

  81. thenamestsam

    It was probably time for Dantoni to go in the sense that he didn’t fit with the star player, his team wasn’t achieving the expected results, and there were signs in the last few games that the team was starting to tune him out.

    That said, I do feel for him. You hired him for a very specific system and yet never really made any effort to give him the right players for that system, ignored his input on the biggest personnel moves and somehow still expected results. I think Dantoni will be a good hire for someone if they give him the right kind of players.

    For the Knicks, where do they go now? Woodson will go to an iso-heavy offense and I do think that for this year that may prove more successful. But long-term I don’t think Coach Woodson leads anywhere we want to go. Jax and Sloan are a combined 137 years old. Is either of them going to be interested in spending another few long years riding planes and buses to coach this mess? If they wanted to come back for some reason couldn’t they find a better situation? If not them, who? I honestly can’t think of a realistic candidate who’s not employed somewhere. My best case would be SVG gets fired by the Magic in an effort to keep Dwight, and we somehow grab him. Otherwise I just don’t see an upgrade out there.

  82. er

    Mike quit get over it

    hoolahoop:
    So, might as well make Melo the coach. And since he’s pissed that the knicks were not taking his personnel opinions seriously, make him the GM, too. Then, just let him take every shot.

    hoolahoop:
    So, might as well make Melo the coach. And since he’s pissed that the knicks were not taking his personnel opinions seriously, make him the GM, too. Then, just let him take every shot.

    Frank:
    Lots of buzz online now about Orlando willing to deal DH + whoever for TC + Melo.But Spears from Yahoo! says Dolan won’t do it because he “loves Melo”.This is just too disheartening.

  83. Knicks4Eva

    I’d like to have DH, but the whole “wants to be the man” story line is discouraging. And, he’s acting just like Melo did last year, and that’s a warning sign.

    On top of that, giving up TC would hurt. He’s my favorite Knick right now and our hardest worker.

  84. nicos

    Kikuchiyo:
    I’ll weigh by saying that I don’t see D’Antoni as the core of the problem, and I would have liked to see him finish the season. I wish him well.

    Stephen A. Smith, in his infinite wisdom, is on ESPN saying you’ve got to “feed the beast” and that Woodson will do that. I’m not much of an advanced stats guy, but SAS’s theory seems to be that you should run your offense to coordinate with players’ salaries. Apparently, our beasts are starving. Sounds brilliant to me.

    (Eddy Curry might have benefited from the “feed the beast” offense in at least two ways. Too bad we never tried it.)

    Depends on who the beast is. You can certainly make the case that the beast they should be feeding is Amar’e. He’s been a far more efficient volume scorer throughout his career- Melo’s had one year where he put up numbers better than Amar’e did last year and this year Amar’e's numbers are better despite looking half dead for much of the season. He’s even been a better jump shooter than Melo in each of the last six seasons. They’ve both stunk this year, and Melo clearly played hurt for part of the season but even if he’s healthy, his post-ups and iso’s should be the second option behind pnr’s with either Chandler or Amar’e no matter who the coach is.

  85. teledingo

    SO, once again, Dolan backs the wrong horse. To repeat, ONCE AGAIN, Dolan backs the wrong horse.

    Can’t we find ONE financial advisor who will say “hey Jimmy, this would be a GREAT time to sell the Knicks, MSG and the Rangers!”

    Maybe we can put together a pool?

  86. Frank

    wow – and now DH12 actually telling teammates he will NOT opt out of his contract after the season. What a crazy day in the NBA.

  87. anubav

    I was never a huge D’Antoni fan, but, as a Knicks fan, I’m really sad that he’s gone, and that it ended so abruptly. I guess we’re back in rebuild mode, because there is no way this team wins anything with the roster as currently constituted… argh.. oh well, back to the beginning, I guess.

    Sometimes I hate the NYC media machine…

  88. A Voice of Reason

    teledingo:
    SO, once again, Dolan backs the wrong horse. To repeat, ONCE AGAIN, Dolan backs the wrong horse.

    Can’t we find ONE financial advisor who will say “hey Jimmy, this would be a GREAT time to sell the Knicks, MSG and the Rangers!”

    Maybe we can put together a pool?

    Maybe I am misreading, but I believe that you are implying that MDA was the “right horse”?

    Agree on Dolan selling though, he’s just too exclusive. The anti-Cuban

  89. Frank

    teledingo:
    SO, once again, Dolan backs the wrong horse. To repeat, ONCE AGAIN, Dolan backs the wrong horse.

    Can’t we find ONE financial advisor who will say “hey Jimmy, this would be a GREAT time to sell the Knicks, MSG and the Rangers!”

    Maybe we can put together a pool?

    Honestly, what we need is for a super super super rich person who loves New York to just go to Dolan and offer him $2B for the Knicks or some such total overpayment. If only people who had that much money could be convinced to do something like that. Maybe our current mayor REALLY wants to put a mark on NYC. That would be awesome.

  90. jon abbey

    teledingo:
    SO, once again, Dolan backs the wrong horse. To repeat, ONCE AGAIN, Dolan backs the wrong horse.

    Can’t we find ONE financial advisor who will say “hey Jimmy, this would be a GREAT time to sell the Knicks, MSG and the Rangers!”

    Maybe we can put together a pool?

    http://www.facebook.com/OccupyMSG

    26 people and counting, join up and tell your friends. if we get to a few hundred, we can start coming up with ideas.

  91. Frank

    netw3rk just predicted D’Antoni to the Clippers. Can you imagine MDA + CP3 + Blake + shooters + D Jordan to guard the rim. Scary.

  92. teledingo

    I don’t have much sympathy for Melo, but at this point this situation is both totally broken and totally out of his hands. I don’t see anything – short of winning a title – that will lead to rapprochement between Melo and the Knicks fans.

    He is now the enemy, and I think this is a permanent situation. Fairly or not, Melo is viewed as being juvenile and having a low basketball IQ, and I don’t think he has the PR tools at his disposal to fix that perception.

    He’s now ARod, Part II.

  93. Caleb

    In general I just don’t buy that the coach makes the players. Novak was a killer shooter before he got here… Lin and Fields can play.. and anyway it’s crazy to think you can fool the rest of the league into thinking your guys are something they aren’t. What example in any city would you point to where that’s happened?

    The only illusion is for high-usage, big scorers, who we know cash in above and beyond actual value.

    As you all know i don’t put much value on coaches – I don’t think we’ll be much worse, or better, because of Woodson. But this still stinks. #1, we’re going to be playing uglyball. For better or worse, real D’Antoni-ball is fun to watch. Woodson-style is one of the most painful styles to watch.

    But also fair to say, it’s a perfect match for Carmelo, who IMO is one of the dullest stars to watch. Woodson is famous for the “iso-Joe,” which the Hawks ran 3 out of 4 times down the court. Carmelo plays the role of Joe Johnson.

  94. knew_york_knicks

    d-mar:
    I need a time machine. And not a very powerful one, just enough to get me to 3 weeks ago, when it was actually really fun to be a fan of the NY Knicks. I cannot believe it has gotten this bad (again)

    +1

  95. Caleb

    I guess since I live in Atlanta and watched Woody up close for several years, there’s a few things to share.. I should maybe flesh this out but here are the highlights.

    - He loves iso plays and constantly took flak for it – the Hawks had a young, athletic team but always played slow, emphasizing the half-court. Everything ran through Joe Johnson. Expect exactly the same in New York, but with Carmelo.

    - He took a lot of heat for it, and it wasn’t fun to watch, but it worked – the Hawks had a terrific offense while he was here. No one noticed, because they were one of the slowest-paced teams in the league. Point totals were low, but in terms of efficiency the Hawks had a really good offense – 3rd in the league his final year, without what you’d call huge offensive firepower.

    - On a related note, the Hawks D ranked worse than O in terms of efficiency, every year but one. It always makes me laugh when people refer to him as a defensive guru.

    - As we’ve discussed here, his defensive strategy is based on constant switching.

    - Woody’s Hawks had an interesting trajectory – they improved every single year – 6 years in a row, the only team in NBA history to do that. Win totals of 13, 26, 30, 37, 47 and 53.
    Then he got fired.

    - As everyone knows, the Hawks accomplished nothing in the playoffs. You could say they were never favored, so it was par for the course, but there’s a general sense they underachieved.

    - People said the iso-Joe offense was especially vulnerable to playoff ball – maybe because it was simpler to defend, or… heck, I don’t know. This criticism wasn’t too persuasive to me.

    - Personality-wise, he’s a curmudgeon. “Kids, these days…” He did not get along with Josh Smith, but then maybe, who does?

    Bottom line: Woody’s a solid coach but his teams – and his news conferences – are a lot less fun to watch than D’Antoni’s.

  96. jon abbey

    teledingo:
    I don’t have much sympathy for Melo, but at this point this situation is both totally broken and totally out of his hands. I don’t see anything – short of winning a title – that will lead to rapprochement between Melo and the Knicks fans.

    He is now the enemy, and I think this is a permanent situation. Fairly or not, Melo is viewed as being juvenile and having a low basketball IQ, and I don’t think he has the PR tools at his disposal to fix that perception.

    He’s now ARod, Part II.

    he’s not near the talent that A-Rod is, he’s more like Ryan Howard if Philly didn’t win in 2009. a huge contract based on RBIs…

  97. anubav

    BigBlueAL:
    Linsanity is officially over.

    Gosh, I had to hold back a tear when I read this. It’s funny what the term “Linsanity” has come to mean to Knicks fans. So much more than one guy.

  98. Z-man

    First, it is a better management strategy to hire the big-name coach AFTER you rebuild, kinda like we did with Riley (or like Riley did with himself in Miami!). This way, the big name’s rep doesn’t suffer throught the losing years. So it is not a surprise that things turned out this way.

    Second, New York is a DEFENSE FIRST town. Both the 60′s-70′s championship teams and the 90′s Riley-JVG teams were defense-first teams. D’Antoni’s teams rarely won games with 48 minutes of hard-nosed defense and loose-ball pursuit. Watching the Bulls, Celts and Heat against us this year is what I’m talking about. Melo may have gotten his way with the coach, but this town will hold him accountable. Whoever the next coach is, he should take on Melo and Amare right from the start, first in the locker room, then on the bench (as in if you don’t play D you get benched) and then in the press if necessary. Then leave the rest up to the fans at the garden.

    As a fan, I don’t give a f–k how they score their points. Iso, SSoL, Flex, Triangle, doesn’t matter to me. What I don’t ever want to compromise on is balls-out D for 48 minutes, not 20, 30 or even 47. You don’t hustle, box out, help, protect the rim, you don’t play. When did we ever, ever, ever see that from a D’Antoni Knick team, except for maybe games 1 and 2 of the Celtic series when it was too late? This team has never internalized defense as the non-negotiable element of team basketball that NY demands and championship teams require.

    So, I have no problem with D’Antoni being pushed out. I will, however, have a HUGE problem with Amare and Melo if they refuse to respond to a defensive-minded coach.

  99. Owen

    So, we have 14 games remaining on our schedule aginst teams with better records than us plus two against Milwaukee. 24 total games. That leaves 8 games against teams with worse records than us.

    Who has our pick this year? Is it the Nets? Because having two top ten picks in the strongest draft in the last five years might be a pretty good thing for that franchise….

  100. Caleb

    A Voice of Reason: sigh.. Melo did not make this decision. I’m sure MDA wanted out. I’m sure Melo wanted him out. Melo gets paid to play, not make personnel decisions. Dolan has paid him TWENTY-FOUR million dollars. The guy will be ok. His style of play has never won a championship. It never will. His best chance was with the transcendent Steve Nash, who made him look better than he ever was. An NBA level coach who can’t coach DEFENSE!?!? Indefensible at the base, even more indefensible to pay that much for him. I bet his next contract is half that.

    I have to step in and stop the insanity. On what basis would someone say, “his style has never won a championship?” No one’s style has in 30 years, except about 5 guys. The Suns were a play away from making the finals (and probably winning), and another time might have done it except Joe Johnson went down in the playoffs. They almost made it the year Stoudemire got hurt and got replaced by Boris freaking Diaw. The Suns ha tons of playoff success – MDA has a better playoff record than any working coach except Gregg Popovich and Doc Rivers.

    Defense? His Suns teams were between 13th and 16th in the league, without a center and with Stoudemire and NAsh in the lineup.

    He got a real center this year and – presto – a top-10 defense.

    Please…

  101. Z-man

    PS I agree with Caleb in that I don’t view Woodson as a defensive-minded coach. He is an interim, nothing more.

    While I have loathed Phil, wouldn’t it be a great story if he came full circle and after tormenting us for years finally got us a title?

  102. RastaPappa

    D Howard is packing his back with Patrick Ewing. Now that’s a what I like. Bye Bye Melo

  103. Caleb

    Z-man:
    PS I agree with Caleb in that I don’t view Woodson as a defensive-minded coach.He is an interim, nothing more.

    While I have loathed Phil, wouldn’t it be a great story if he came full circle and after tormenting us for years finally got us a title?

    I’m a big Phil fan but why would he take this job, with this owner and this roster?

    (Now wouldn’t it be funny if he went to coach D-Ho in Brooklyn?)

  104. Juany8

    Jesus guys, you realize there is not a single other coach that “needs players to fit his system”. This is professtional basketball, D’Antoni should go coach college if he needs specific players to match a fucking system, he’s an offensive coordinator that has historically been unable to make his teams better. His best years were with Phoenix, and yet Alvin Gentry did better with a LESS TALENTED TEAM, and took them to the Western Conference Finals in part because of their depth, which D’Antoni never used. What exactly makes him a good coach exactly? Did Jerry Sloan or Phil Jackson ever need a hall of fame playmaker and 4 shooters to run an excellent offense? Hell I thought Mike Woodson got a bit of a bad rep, he’s not a good coach either but at least he’ll coach fucking details and play his players like they’re supposed to play, not like he’d like them to play. Any coach that thinks their ideas are more important than the players should not be a professional coach

  105. Caleb

    @90 Stan Van is a good call. If Dwight goes, he can’t want to stick around, can he? He’s a creative guy – love the way he worked with Orlando.

  106. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Frank: Honestly, what we need is for a super super super rich person who loves New York to just go to Dolan and offer him $2B for the Knicks or some such total overpayment.If only people who had that much money could be convinced to do something like that.Maybe our current mayor REALLY wants to put a mark on NYC. That would be awesome.

    Maybe Santa Claus will come down from the North Pole and give everyone handjobs, too. If you’re even remotely serious about the possibility of a successful businessman overpaying just to buy a sports team and make their miserable, vicariously living, dim-witted fanbase happy, you are out of your fucking mind.

  107. d-mar

    Sources now saying Howard won’t opt out and will play in Orlando through 2012-2013. The Nets must be shitting their pants…Melo for D-Will, make it happen!

  108. citizen

    Juany8:
    Jesus guys, you realize there is not a single other coach that “needs players to fit his system”. This is professtional basketball, D’Antoni should go coach college if he needs specific players to match a fucking system, he’s an offensive coordinator that has historically been unable to make his teams better. His best years were with Phoenix, and yet Alvin Gentry did better with a LESS TALENTED TEAM, and took them to the Western Conference Finals in part because of their depth, which D’Antoni never used. What exactly makes him a good coach exactly? Did Jerry Sloan or Phil Jackson ever need a hall of fame playmaker and 4 shooters to run an excellent offense? Hell I thought Mike Woodson got a bit of a bad rep, he’s not a good coach either but at least he’ll coach fucking details and play his players like they’re supposed to play, not like he’d like them to play. Any coach that thinks their ideas are more important than the players should not be a professional coach

    I’m not sure you picked the right coaches here as a counterexample…

  109. Frank

    Caleb:

    As you all know i don’t put much value on coaches – I don’t think we’ll be much worse, or better, because of Woodson. But this still stinks. #1, we’re going to be playing uglyball. For better or worse, real D’Antoni-ball is fun to watch. Woodson-style is one of the most painful styles to watch.

    But also fair to say, it’s a perfect match for Carmelo, who IMO is one of the dullest stars to watch. Woodson is famous for the “iso-Joe,” which the Hawks ran 3 out of 4 times down the court. Carmelo plays the role of Joe Johnson.

    For the record, I’m sorry MDA is gone – I thought he was a stand-up guy that got a raw deal here.

    But I honestly couldn’t care less about uglyball. We played the ugliest ball in NBA history in the 90s and I loved every minute of it.

    I’m not sure how good a coach Woodson is, but his offense in ATL in 09-10 was elite even if ugly. And it wasn’t all iso-ball. He had 17.3% iso’s and 11.8% post-ups, which leaves 70+% of the offense for other things like PNR, cuts, spot-ups, and transition. He does slow the ball down though – ATL’s pace was in the bottom half of the league every year he was there. And like A Voice of Reason said above, maybe that’s not such a bad thing.

    Oh well – I’ve gone through disbelief, anger, bargaining, depression, and now have gone to acceptance. Let’s see what this team has. It will be a major test of professionalism for them to go out tonight and play well.

  110. Juany8

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Maybe Santa Claus will come down from the North Pole and give everyone handjobs, too. If you’re even remotely serious about the possibility of a successful businessman overpaying just to buy a sports team and make their miserable, vicariously living, dim-witted fanbase happy, you are out of your fucking mind.

    Do you ever stop to wonder why people don’t like you? He literally said “If only people who had that much money could be convinced to do something like that”. Obviously no business man is going to overpay that badly, but sports franchises are generally ego purchases more than great investments (except football), which means someone overpaying for a team like the Knicks isn’t far out of the realm of possibility. Of course Dolan will never sell unless he has a HUGE offer (much like Donald Sterling), so it’s all a moot point.

  111. Caleb

    citizen: I’m not sure you picked the right coaches here as a counterexample…

    I was going to say…

    More makes the point, it’s a player’s league.

  112. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    citizen: I’m not sure you picked the right coaches here as a counterexample…

    Right? When did Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan ever coach the NBA’s best players? I don’t think either of them have ever had an MVP on their side.

  113. Frank

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Maybe Santa Claus will come down from the North Pole and give everyone handjobs, too. If you’re even remotely serious about the possibility of a successful businessman overpaying just to buy a sports team and make their miserable, vicariously living, dim-witted fanbase happy, you are out of your fucking mind.

    LOL that is why I wrote this sentence which you obviously did not read: “If only people who had that much money could be convinced to do something like that”.

  114. Caleb

    d-mar:
    Sources now saying Howard won’t opt out and will play in Orlando through 2012-2013. The Nets must be shitting their pants…Melo for D-Will, make it happen!

    If that’s true, it’s D-Will to Dallas this summer.. D-Ho to follow in 2013, unless Orlando makes some kind of miracle trade in between.

  115. er

    +1 million

    Juany8:
    Jesus guys, you realize there is not a single other coach that “needs players to fit his system”. This is professtional basketball, D’Antoni should go coach college if he needs specific players to match a fucking system, he’s an offensive coordinator that has historically been unable to make his teams better. His best years were with Phoenix, and yet Alvin Gentry did better with a LESS TALENTED TEAM, and took them to the Western Conference Finals in part because of their depth, which D’Antoni never used. What exactly makes him a good coach exactly? Did Jerry Sloan or Phil Jackson ever need a hall of fame playmaker and 4 shooters to run an excellent offense? Hell I thought Mike Woodson got a bit of a bad rep, he’s not a good coach either but at least he’ll coach fucking details and play his players like they’re supposed to play, not like he’d like them to play. Any coach that thinks their ideas are more important than the players should not be a professional coach

  116. KJG

    Z-man:

    As a fan, I don’t give a f–k how they score their points.Iso, SSoL, Flex, Triangle, doesn’t matter to me.What I don’t ever want to compromise on is balls-out D for 48 minutes, not 20, 30 or even 47.You don’t hustle, box out, help, protect the rim, you don’t play. When did we ever, ever, ever see that from a D’Antoni Knick team, except for maybe games 1 and 2 of the Celtic series when it was too late? This team has never internalized defense as the non-negotiable element of team basketball that NY demands and championship teams require.

    i swear i was was just mumbling something similar to passer-by’s of my cubical… i couldnt even tell you what kinda offense we ran in the mid 90′s, partly because i was 10-14 years old and didnt get it… i just want them to play defense and w/ no freebies.

  117. d-mar

    Caleb: If that’s true, it’s D-Will to Dallas this summer.. D-Ho to follow in 2013, unless Orlando makes some kind of miracle trade in between.

    Yeah, but why would the Nets let him get to free agency? They would have to be burning up the phone lines to try and get something for him before trade deadline.

  118. Owen

    And Caleb +1 great great comment

    Totally agree re Woodson in Atlanta. The Hawks in 09-10 were fifth in offensive rebounding and out of the top ten in Efg% and below average in fta. But they led in offensive turnover % by a large margin. And as a result they were second in the league in offensive rating. There is more than one way to skin a cat….

    I don’t think there is any question that Woodson is the perfect coach for Melo. I expect his numbers to skyrocket. his efficiency to improve modestly, and the Knicks to be well nigh unwatchable from an aesthetic perspective.

  119. DRed

    I liked D’Antoni. I don’t blame him for quitting. As Caleb says, it’s a players league, and we don’t have very good basketball players. So I wouldn’t expect any real improvement this year. I don’t know how much longer I can keep rooting for this team with fucking Dolan owning it. Being owned by a total moron is really, really bad for a franchise.

  120. A Voice of Reason

    Caleb: I have to step in and stop the insanity. On what basis would someone say, “his style has never won a championship?” No one’s style has in 30 years, except about 5 guys. The Suns were a play away from making the finals (and probably winning), and another time might have done it except Joe Johnson went down in the playoffs. They almost made it the year Stoudemire got hurt and got replaced by Boris freaking Diaw. The Suns ha tons of playoff success – MDA has a better playoff record than any working coach except Gregg Popovich and Doc Rivers.

    Defense? His Suns teams were between 13th and 16th in the league, without a center and with Stoudemire and NAsh in the lineup.

    He got a real center this year and – presto – a top-10 defense.

    Please…

    oooo a comeback…

    Caleb you are one of the higher quality posters on this board, IMO.
    I agree that MDA’s “system” almost won a couple times. I was an NBA fan back then too, so no need to give the history lesson. However, the fallacies to your argument are as follows:

    1. Almost doesn’t count. Brandy sang about it some 15 years ago. Injuries happen to all teams. Nobody else gets an excuse, MDA won’t get one either.

    2. “No one’s style has in 30 years, except about 5 guys.” Could you list those 5 guys, and the championships the won? 5/30 is already 17%, and that’s assuming that your “5 guys” only won one ring, which I’m sure is untrue.

    3. The two coaches you compare MDA to have rings. Doc has one (should have two…we all remember Kobe’s 5-28 and the refs overactive whistles in the second half of that game 7) and Pop has 3. MDA has never been to the finals.

    4. To defend the PHO defense in that stretch is, to quote Stephen A, “ASS-a-NINE”. If their defense was even credible, the would have been able to win a ring. They couldn’t stop anyone in the playoffs. your “13-16th in…

  121. A Voice of Reason

    Juany8:
    Jesus guys, you realize there is not a single other coach that “needs players to fit his system”. This is professtional basketball, D’Antoni should go coach college if he needs specific players to match a fucking system, he’s an offensive coordinator that has historically been unable to make his teams better. His best years were with Phoenix, and yet Alvin Gentry did better with a LESS TALENTED TEAM, and took them to the Western Conference Finals in part because of their depth, which D’Antoni never used. What exactly makes him a good coach exactly? Did Jerry Sloan or Phil Jackson ever need a hall of fame playmaker and 4 shooters to run an excellent offense? Hell I thought Mike Woodson got a bit of a bad rep, he’s not a good coach either but at least he’ll coach fucking details and play his players like they’re supposed to play, not like he’d like them to play. Any coach that thinks their ideas are more important than the players should not be a professional coach

    +1254

  122. Juany8

    citizen: I’m not sure you picked the right coaches here as a counterexample…

    If you’re going to describe someone as an offensive genius, he better be at least as good as other coaches in the league at coaching offense. He isn’t at all, and he needs a very specific set of players to really unleash his system. D’Antoni wouldn’t have won with those Lakers teams that never ran one pick and roll, and those teams had players like Fisher and Artest that aren’t exactly offensive juggernauts or great offensive spacers. Jerry Sloan did a far, far better job of boosting his players stats than D’Antoni ever did, go look at what Boozer, their second best offensive player, did when he went from Utah to Chicago (don’t give me crap about Deron Williams, Derrick Rose isn’t exactly a mediocre point guard…).

  123. A Voice of Reason

    from 131….the league refers to the regular season, I’m sure, which in this argument concerning rings potentially won/lost, is irrelevant.

    I liked your “please” ending though. Very chic

  124. jon abbey

    Caleb: If that’s true, it’s D-Will to Dallas this summer.. D-Ho to follow in 2013, unless Orlando makes some kind of miracle trade in between.

    agree about D-Will to Dallas, not so sure about Howard. I think it actually keeps us alive in the Howard sweepstakes, as it’ll give our motley crew a year to play together and hopefully regain some value.

  125. BigBlueAL

    David Aldridge is reporting in their meeting today D’Antoni asked Dolan to trade Melo to NJ for DWill.

  126. Z-man

    Caleb: Defense? His Suns teams were between 13th and 16th in the league, without a center and with Stoudemire and NAsh in the lineup.
    He got a real center this year and – presto – a top-10 defense.
    Please…

    Caleb,
    Are you really going to argue that D’Antoni is anything resembling a solid defensive coach? What have you seen the Knicks do that even remotely resembles the defensive intensity of the Bulls, Celts, or Spurs? Being 13-16th in the league is hardly an accomplishment for a team looking to win a championship. The vast majority of teams that won titles in the past 20 years had top-5 defensive ratings. The only team I saw in double digits was the Lakers during their Shaq 3-peat, and they were number 1 the year before.

    D’Antoni had some decent defensive players as well, Marion, Bell and Kurt Thomas to name a few. This year he had several excellent defenders, yet the D looks amateurish in both tactics and consistency.

  127. xduckshoex

    Knicks4Eva:

    But, I will say that the idea that Melo’s greed tore the team apart at trade time is overstated and perhaps wrong. First, why wouldn’t it be Dolan’s greed? Next, what Melo did at trade time was make it clear where he wanted to go.

    This is revisionist history because that is NOT what Melo did. What Melo actually did was never actually commit to anything. Days before he was asked point blank if he would re-sign in Denver if he wasn’t traded and he said he would strongly consider it. That’s not the answer you give if you want to go to NY and play on a really good team.

    I know it’s beating a dead horse at this point, but there is no reason to pretend that the Melo trade was something that it wasn’t.

  128. A Voice of Reason

    Z-man: Caleb,
    Are you really going to argue that D’Antoni is anything resembling a solid defensive coach? What have you seen the Knicks do that even remotely resembles the defensive intensity of the Bulls, Celts, or Spurs? Being 13-16th in the league is hardly an accomplishment for a team looking to win a championship. The vast majority of teams that won titles in the past 20 years had top-5 defensive ratings. The only team I saw in double digits was the Lakers during their Shaq 3-peat, and they were number 1 the year before.

    D’Antoni had some decent defensive players as well, Marion, Bell and Kurt Thomas to name a few. This year he had several excellent defenders, yet the D looks amateurish in both tactics and consistency.

    +14

  129. A Voice of Reason

    xduckshoex: This is revisionist history because that is NOT what Melo did.What Melo actually did was never actually commit to anything.Days before he was asked point blank if he would re-sign in Denver if he wasn’t traded and he said he would strongly consider it.That’s not the answer you give if you want to go to NY and play on a really good team.

    I know it’s beating a dead horse at this point, but there is no reason to pretend that the Melo trade was something that it wasn’t.

    Thank you for clearing that up, although people see and hear what they want to see and hear. Especially in the NY media.

  130. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    ephus: I have been rooting for the return of Phil Jackson since he was coaching the Albany Patroons.I do not know if talent here would work well in the Triangle, but I want the Knicks to invest the time to find out.

    If not Phil, then the Knicks need to bring in a coach who can take command of a disfunctional relationship between ‘Melo and the rest of the roster.Until he improves (not this season), Amar’e is untradeable.So the new coach is going to need to motivate both ‘Melo and Amar’e to give full effort.

    this organization wants is a great headline coach in the realm of Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, or, Hubie Brown, which i would take in a heart beat. These Coaches or anybody of there caliber will ever come to the Knicks with a player who has more control of the team than the previously vacated coach.

    This is something i posted before and truly believe there is no way any great coach, wants to come to a team that is controlled by a player and management that doesn’t want to admit they made a mistake with that player (player being Carmelo Anthony) that backs that player.

    if melo lived up to his hype not even his potential then i would be singing a different tune but obviously he has not played that way. So if he comes out guns blazing and we win, i still would not want to coach this team knowing that one player has this much power over me, especially since i need to be his boss.

  131. xduckshoex

    It sucks that his firing is an excuse for his detractors to trot out all of the demonstrably false claims about the effectiveness of his “system” and his defensive coaching abilities that were debunked when he was hired. I can’t think of another coach he has had the success that D’Antoni has had who still has to put up with people constantly questioning his abilities.

  132. Eternal OptiKnist

    Alan Hahn’s twitter has been very silent…ahh the MSG PR machine is well-oiled!

  133. BigBlueAL

    It is not going to be fun to watch D’Antoni come into MSG next season with the Clippers and blow out the Knicks.

  134. Knicks4Eva

    @139, you’re right, I simplified it in retelling it. My point, however, was not that the trade was good. My point was the idea that Melo’s “greed” was the culprit is likely hypocritical, probably wrong, and irrelevant to on-the-court discussions.

  135. SSS

    If the Melo for D-Will trade somehow happened, which it won’t, what do you do with Lin? Play him behind Deron (and sometimes with) and hope he continues to grow into an asset (on and off the court)? Or do you shop him and see what you might get?

  136. DRed

    To the people bitching about D’Antoni being a system coach, why would you hire a coach with a specific system and then NOT GET PLAYERS TO FIT THAT SYSTEM?

  137. xduckshoex

    Z-man: Caleb,
    Are you really going to argue that D’Antoni is anything resembling a solid defensive coach? What have you seen the Knicks do that even remotely resembles the defensive intensity of the Bulls, Celts, or Spurs? Being 13-16th in the league is hardly an accomplishment for a team looking to win a championship. The vast majority of teams that won titles in the past 20 years had top-5 defensive ratings. The only team I saw in double digits was the Lakers during their Shaq 3-peat, and they were number 1 the year before.

    D’Antoni had some decent defensive players as well, Marion, Bell and Kurt Thomas to name a few. This year he had several excellent defenders, yet the D looks amateurish in both tactics and consistency.

    Three decent defenders does not a great defensive team make.

    This has been rehashed over and over again. I want you to look at every great defensive team and look at what they have in common. I’ll tell you exactly what they are, and it’s not the coach. It’s size and depth. They all have a Garnett/Perkins, Wallace/Wallace, Mutombo/Hill, Ewing/Oakley, Noah/Gibson. Bynum/Gasol, Robinson/Duncan, Howard/Gortat and so on and so forth. The Suns had Stoudemire/Diaw/Tim Thomas. Noticeably different, isn’t it?

    What else has every great defensive team had? Depth. The ability to wear yourselves out on the defensive end and absorb the fouls necessary to protect the rim effectively while still playing effective basketball. Who did the Suns have behind Stoudemire? Half a season of Kurt Thomas? They had a 7 man rotation.

    This idea that all it takes to be a great defensive team is a great defensive coach is ridiculous. The fact that D’Antoni had a that roster up as high as 13th was a testament to his ability to adapt to his roster and design a system that worked for them.

  138. formido

    A Voice of Reason: 1. Almost doesn’t count. Brandy sang about it some 15 years ago. Injuries happen to all teams. Nobody else gets an excuse, MDA won’t get one either.

    I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean. Were you on the Suns? Are you D’Antoni? For D’Antoni, it might be an “excuse”, but for people who are trying to analyze games and make predictions, it looks exactly like a “reason”.

    Since there is a significant element of luck in sports, almost absolutely does “count”, and if you refuse to acknowledge that, I will assume you are arguing from a position of deep intellectual dishonesty.

  139. xduckshoex

    BigBlueAL:
    It is not going to be fun to watch D’Antoni come into MSG next season with the Clippers and blow out the Knicks.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Chris Paul is putting a hit out on Del Negro right now.

  140. Juany8

    xduckshoex:
    It sucks that his firing is an excuse for his detractors to trot out all of the demonstrably false claims about the effectiveness of his “system” and his defensive coaching abilities that were debunked when he was hired.I can’t think of another coach he has had the success that D’Antoni has had who still has to put up with people constantly questioning his abilities.

    I have never seen a coach get more credit for doing so little. Phoenix did not get worse when they got rid of D’Antoni, Alvin Gentry took a team with a worse core to the Western Conference Finals, and were a Ron Artest offensive rebound game winner from pushing the Lakers (who went to 3 consecutive Finals) to a game 7. He would be fantastic as an offensive coordinator, but there is no evidence he’s been anything more than an average head coach (if that). I’d love to have Thibs coaching this team, the difference he made in Chicago’s defense in one year was staggering.

  141. dogrufus

    Owen:
    Dogrufus – I was kidding. But i predict a return to microscopically above average ts%’s the rest of the way for Melo. He’s going to get his touches and his points and rehabilitate his reputation as the best pure scorer in the game, which is what’s important….

    Speaking of Knicks small forwards, we had one here last year.

    SO GLAD we traded him for a clutch superstar like Melo…

    http://www.youtube.com/watchfeature=player_embedded&v=paV9T8CjS2E

    I feel like getting drunk, alone

    Hearing that “best pure scorer in the game” line, even sarcastically, makes me twitch. Everyone who says it has never heard of Kevin Durant, I guess

  142. A Voice of Reason

    Caleb: I have to step in and stop the insanity. On what basis would someone say, “his style has never won a championship?” No one’s style has in 30 years, except about 5 guys. The Suns were a play away from making the finals (and probably winning), and another time might have done it except Joe Johnson went down in the playoffs. They almost made it the year Stoudemire got hurt and got replaced by Boris freaking Diaw. The Suns ha tons of playoff success – MDA has a better playoff record than any working coach except Gregg Popovich and Doc Rivers.

    Defense? His Suns teams were between 13th and 16th in the league, without a center and with Stoudemire and NAsh in the lineup.

    He got a real center this year and – presto – a top-10 defense.

    Please…

    After a few minutes to think about it, this post has to be one of your worst man..

    Q: On what basis would someone say, “his style has never won a championship?”
    A: on the basis that it is true

    And the insanity you claimed to “step in and stop” seems to have been perpetuated with this statement…

    “No one’s style has in 30 years, except about 5 guys.”

    Off the top of my head, three of those guys are Phil Jax, Greg Pop, and Pat Riley. Those coaches have 11, 3, and 5. That total comes to 19 rings, and I am leaving out the other two guys you so incompletely referenced..that is one-third of the championships in that past 30 years where a style has won. MDA’s style is ok, but it is incomplete at best because of his lack of defensive proficiency. To compare his style to those styles is again “ASS-a-NINE”

    You also refer to T-1000 as a “real center”, implying that Amare was/is not, although he has had his best seasons at the 5, including the much heralded first season with us…

    This is my humble opinion, and you are certainly entitled to yours.

    Lets Go Knicks

  143. Frank

    ephus:
    My guess is that D-Will will be sent to the Lakers for Pau Gasol.

    LOL – Jordan Farmar reprising his role as Jordan Farmar on the Lakers, Brook Lopez as Bynum, Pau as Pau, and… Marshon Brooks as Kobe?

  144. Doug

    Owen: I don’t think there is any question that Woodson is the perfect coach for Melo. I expect his numbers to skyrocket. his efficiency to improve modestly, and the Knicks to be well nigh unwatchable from an aesthetic perspective.

    Good god, Owen, I hope your optimism is right.

    DRed:
    I liked D’Antoni.I don’t blame him for quitting.As Caleb says, it’s a players league, and we don’t have very good basketball players.So I wouldn’t expect any real improvement this year.I don’t know how much longer I can keep rooting for this team with fucking Dolan owning it.Being owned by a total moron is really, really bad for a franchise.

    DRed, I know for sure you’re right.

  145. New Guy

    I’ve spent 3 months fearing the day when Woodson became our coach. It took 2 hours for me to convince myself that this might work out.

  146. Caleb

    Z-man: Caleb,
    Are you really going to argue that D’Antoni is anything resembling a solid defensive coach? What have you seen the Knicks do that even remotely resembles the defensive intensity of the Bulls, Celts, or Spurs? Being 13-16th in the league is hardly an accomplishment for a team looking to win a championship. The vast majority of teams that won titles in the past 20 years had top-5 defensive ratings. The only team I saw in double digits was the Lakers during their Shaq 3-peat, and they were number 1 the year before.

    D’Antoni had some decent defensive players as well, Marion, Bell and Kurt Thomas to name a few. This year he had several excellent defenders, yet the D looks amateurish in both tactics and consistency.

    You’ve been around KB long enough.. you know our eyes don’t tell the whole story. The Knicks D has been pretty good this year. Against a weak sked, granted,we’re still in the top 10 of the NBA despite our personnel issues. It’s our O that’s been awful.

  147. KnickfaninNJ

    BigBlueAL:
    David Aldridge is reporting in their meeting today D’Antoni asked Dolan to trade Melo to NJ for DWill.

    I think that might have worked for everyone but Dolan. I think Melo’s a good player and I still would”e wanted that trade. NJ would do it because they get a star under contract. Melo would still live in the NY area. The team wouldn’t have to worry about sharing the ball between Amare and Melo (which many many people have commented on). But Melo sells more tickets and getting him was Dolan’s signature move to improve the team

  148. A Voice of Reason

    formido: I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean. Were you on the Suns? Are you D’Antoni? For D’Antoni, it might be an “excuse”, but for people who are trying to analyze games and make predictions, it looks exactly like a “reason”.

    Since there is a significant element of luck in sports, almost absolutely does “count”, and if you refuse to acknowledge that, I will assume you are arguing from a position of deep intellectual dishonesty.

    I understand your point, and obviously I was not on the Suns, and I am not MDA. What I was trying to convey is that exact point. Every team has injuries, based upon the “luck” factor in sports. History won’t remember that Kendrick Perkins got hurt and thus the C’s lost interior toughness in the (2010?) finals. History won’t care that we lost Chauncey and Amare last year in the first round. We will remember, but history doesn’t care.

    I also like your point about almost though, because to us, it does count. I was trying to look at it from the perspective of the people who are paid to win, not those who pay to watch. From a fan’s perspective I agree with you, but those players get paid to overcome injuries and show up to win.

  149. Z-man

    xduckshoex: This idea that all it takes to be a great defensive team is a great defensive coach is ridiculous. The fact that D’Antoni had a that roster up as high as 13th was a testament to his ability to adapt to his roster and design a system that worked for them.

    Nobody said that it is all it takes to be #1, you clearly need the players too. However, having a team at 13th when there are only 16 playoff teams (and 13th was his high water mark) is hardly an accomplishment.

  150. xduckshoex

    Juany8:
    Any coach that thinks their ideas are more important than the players should not be a professional coach

    This is just an absurd thing to say.

    D’Antoni did not think that his ideas were more important than the players, he thought that they were more important than ONE player. Everyone else was fine in the offense that he wanted to run, in fact a number of them excelled when Melo was out. Some of the players who excelled when Melo was out were also players who did not play well when Melo was in. So you really think that effective coaching would be abandoning the principles that have won you a ton of games and actually benefits most of your players because one guy doesn’t want to play your way?

    That doesn’t really make sense to me.

  151. dogrufus

    New Guy:
    I’ve spent 3 months fearing the day when Woodson became our coach.It took 2 hours for me to convince myself that this might work out.

    And it’ll take two weeks to realize you’re deluding yourself and the team is fucking hopeless

  152. formido

    Stockton and Malone almost won an NBA title. But since “almost” is just an excuse, and has no predictive power, I guess they’re no good.

    I wonder why Miami kept those scrubs Wade and Lebron around after last season when they “almost” won an NBA title. Should have blown up the team since it was clear those guys couldn’t do it.

    Excuse me while I poorly hide my scorn for this type of argument which creeps up on sports message boards everywhere, all the time, in perfect contravention to the slightest reasoning.

  153. Caleb

    A Voice of Reason: oooo a comeback…

    1. Almost doesn’t count. Brandy sang about it some 15 years ago. Injuries happen to all teams. Nobody else gets an excuse, MDA won’t get one either.

    2. “No one’s style has in 30 years, except about 5 guys.” Could you list those 5 guys, and the championships the won? 5/30 is already 17%, and that’s assuming that your “5 guys” only won one ring, which I’m sure is untrue.

    3. The two coaches you compare MDA to have rings. Doc has one (should have two…we all remember Kobe’s 5-28 and the refs overactive whistles in the second half of that game 7) and Pop has 3. MDA has never been to the finals.

    4. To defend the PHO defense in that stretch is, to quote Stephen A, “ASS-a-NINE”. If their defense was even credible, the would have been able to win a ring. They couldn’t stop anyone in the playoffs. your “13-16th in…

    I forget the 80s Celtics coach for some reason but after that you’ve got Riley, Daly, Pop, Jax, Rudy T, Larry Brown, Doc.. that’s six… am I forgetting someone? Out of maybe 150+ coaches in that stretch.

    To say you either won a championship or are a bad coach is silly. MDA had tons of playoff success.

    re #4, that’s not much of a counter. middle of the league is “credible.” I guess we could argue the fine points, but I would say that matches the available talent. Some good defenders, some bad defenders, no center (except old Kurt Thomas for 15-20 a game).
    If the Suns had traded Amare for Tim Duncan, they’d have had a better defense than the Spurs. How great a defensive coach is Gregg Pop these days?

    And like I said at @163, the Knicks defense has been strong this year. Who ya gonna believe, the scoreboard or your own lying eyes?

  154. xduckshoex

    Z-man: Nobody said that it is all it takes to be #1, you clearly need the players too.However, having a team at 13th when there are only 16 playoff teams (and 13th was his high water mark) is hardly an accomplishment.

    Having an above average defensive team with no center and no depth actually sounds like it’s pretty difficult to do. Wouldn’t that make it an accomplishment?

    We’ve all been talking about how horrible Amare is on the defensive end, yet at the same time some are trying to criticize D’Antoni for not coaching a great defensive team when he was literally the only big man on the roster at times. I don’t understand how you reconcile those two: either Stoudemire is capable of anchoring a good defense and critism of him has been way off, or nobody should expect great defense out of a team that has him as the only guy protecting the paint. Something has to give there.

  155. New Guy

    dogrufus: And it’ll take two weeks to realize you’re deluding yourself and the team is fucking hopeless

    I expect that to happen by the 2nd quarter.

    I realize I’m deluding myself. I’m a Knicks fan. It’s what I do.

  156. xduckshoex

    A Voice of Reason:

    Q: On what basis would someone say, “his style has never won a championship?”
    A: on the basis that it is true

    Yeah, but that has nothing to do with whether he is a good coach or not. Has not happened =/= will not happen.

    Until Phil Jackson won his first ring with the Bulls, no team running the triangle had ever won a title. Does that mean that he should have abandoned it, or that the Bulls should have gotten rid of him? According to what you are saying, they absolutely should have, because his system had not won a championship to that point.

  157. Z-man

    Caleb: You’ve been around KB long enough.. you know our eyes don’t tell the whole story. The Knicks D has been pretty good this year. Against a weak sked, granted,we’re still in the top 10 of the NBA despite our personnel issues. It’s our O that’s been awful.

    The O is a separate argument. Are you really going to tell me that our D has been good? I would like to see what our defensive rating was for our last 15 or so losses, especially in the 4th quarter.

  158. A Voice of Reason

    formido:
    Stockton and Malone almost won an NBA title. But since “almost” is just an excuse, and has no predictive power, I guess they’re no good.

    I wonder why Miami kept those scrubs Wade and Lebron around after last season when they “almost” won an NBA title. Should have blown up the team since it was clear those guys couldn’t do it.

    Excuse me while I poorly hide my scorn for this type of argument which creeps up on sports message boards everywhere, all the time, in perfect contravention to the slightest reasoning.

    lol, look man, those players were and are great players. No one will dispute that. Michael Jeffery Jordan was the bane of their existence, along with a few other teams.

    “I wonder why Miami kept those scrubs Wade and Lebron around after last season when they “almost” won an NBA title. Should have blown up the team since it was clear those guys couldn’t do it.”

    are you serious?? I definitely did not imply that they should just blow up the team, but those guys didn’t say almost was ok, so why do you insist that it is? That was their first season together (like these Knicks, btw), so they have earned a mulligan or two. Udonis Haslem would have helped them immensely, and Mike Miller as well, but you don’t hear them talking about how they would have done it if they weren’t hurt. You play to win, that is the goal right?? If you don’t win, it is not ok. It just is what it is.

    That is all I am saying

  159. Jake S.

    BigBlueAL:
    David Aldridge is reporting in their meeting today D’Antoni asked Dolan to trade Melo to NJ for DWill.

    Makes total sense. And this is why the Knicks will never win under Dolan.

  160. Ben R

    After the Melo trade last year I was pissed and lost interest and watched the team a lot less post trade. The Chandler signing got me excited again and with Lin’s emergence I was enjoying my Knick fandom but now I am disillousioned again. I’m going to try and keep watching but it’s hard.

    I hate Melo more than Marbury or Curry or Tim Thomas. Other than Z-Bo I don’t think I’ve ever liked a Knick less and now that Melo forced D’Antoni out and torpedoed our team with his selfishness and lack of perspective I might have to start to forgive Z-Bo. It’s going to be a tough couple of years.

    Go Blazers

  161. A Voice of Reason

    xduckshoex: Yeah, but that has nothing to do with whether he is a good coach or not.Has not happened =/= will not happen.

    Until Phil Jackson won his first ring with the Bulls, no team running the triangle had ever won a title.Does that mean that he should have abandoned it, or that the Bulls should have gotten rid of him?According to what you are saying, they absolutely should have, because his system had not won a championship to that point.

    fair point, although Phil preached defense…
    I never said MDA wasn’t a good coach, just that he is and always has been one dimensional. Phil was not one dimensional..
    I honestly wish MDA the best, but it was obvious that he was not the best fit for what we have here.

  162. xduckshoex

    Juany8: I have never seen a coach get more credit for doing so little. Phoenix did not get worse when they got rid of D’Antoni, Alvin Gentry took a team with a worse core to the Western Conference Finals, and were a Ron Artest offensive rebound game winner from pushing the Lakers(who went to 3 consecutive Finals) to a game 7. He would be fantastic as an offensive coordinator, but there is no evidence he’s been anything more than an average head coach (if that). I’d love to have Thibs coaching this team, the difference he made in Chicago’s defense in one year was staggering.

    You have a really weird definition of “doing little”. Being one of the 4 or 5 most successful coaches of the decade is somehow not doing much? That’s like saying the bottom end of the billionaires list is poor.

    Also, Phoenix didn’t get worse when D’Antoni left(except on the defensive end, where their defensive efficiency plummeted) in part because they had to contend with an older Spurs team featuring a hobbled Tony Parker and an injured Blazers team with no Brandon Roy. You’re trying to look at everything in a vacuum, like the only thing that changed was D’Antoni leaving town, but the roster changed a lot and their competition changed a lot.

  163. The Infamous Cdiggy

    A Voice of Reason:
    What gets me here is that everyone is a GM quality mind and knows whats best for this team. I get it, Melo makes too much. They all make too much. To trash him because MDA gets fired is borderline childish. Take a damn breath and think about what this could mean…

    Maybe we will stop leaving 15 seconds on the shot clock 25 times a game and promote defense with a ball control style of play instead of spotting teams extra possessions every damn game.

    Maybe Steve Nash is an offensive genius, and MDA was the guy (ala Mike Brown) who inherited his greatness.

    Maybe a more traditionally sound offense could work with the PIECES WE HAVE.

    Maybe we will actually take on a defensive culture, and begin standing up on our home floor.

    Maybe we will get inspired play from the players who are actually STILL HERE, despite you all wanting to start Novak, Jeffries, and Harrelson…

    Linsanity ended about 8 days ago. Melo didn’t end it, the scouting reports did. Lin will be fine, but he was not Kyrie Irving before the draft, and he ain’t Kyrie Irving now.

    I don’t mind going against the popular opinion here, because the venom is permeating this site at a rapid pace.

    MDA was as one dimensional as either of our $20M guys, and on a realistic scale of income, the MDA contract was just as bad. Look at coach salaries around the league…MDA was the most overrated coach per dollar BY FAR in this league.

    Good guy, good riddance.

    Let’s Go Knicks

    I never disliked D’Antoni at all, but +1 to this. Let’s see what Woodson is made of.

  164. xduckshoex

    Z-man: The O is a separate argument.Are you really going to tell me that our D has been good? I would like to see what our defensive rating was for our last 15 or so losses, especially in the 4th quarter.

    Yes, the defense has been good.

    I don’t have the numbers handy right now but back in February when the Knicks were starting to sniff the top 10 for defensive efficiency I was skeptical because of the easy schedule so I went through the schedule opponent by opponent and the Knicks held the vast majority below their season average in offensive efficiency.

    When the Knicks had those come from behind wins over the Wolves and Raptors they did it by allowing a combined 23 points in the fourth quarters of those games. Hell, the fact that they were sniffing .500 with one of the worst offenses in the league means that their defense HAD to be good, there is no other explanation.

  165. Z

    Ben R:
    After the Melo trade last year I was pissed and lost interest and watched the team a lot less post trade. The Chandler signing got me excited again and with Lin’s emergence I was enjoying my Knick fandom but now I am disillousioned again. I’m going to try and keep watching but it’s hard.

    I hate Melo more than Marbury or Curry or Tim Thomas. Other than Z-Bo I don’t think I’ve ever liked a Knick less and now that Melo forced D’Antoni out and torpedoed our team with his selfishness and lack of perspective I might have to start to forgive Z-Bo. It’s going to be a tough couple of years.

    Go Blazers

    So much of what you write is what is in my head.

  166. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    Ben R:
    After the Melo trade last year I was pissed and lost interest and watched the team a lot less post trade. The Chandler signing got me excited again and with Lin’s emergence I was enjoying my Knick fandom but now I am disillousioned again. I’m going to try and keep watching but it’s hard.

    I hate Melo more than Marbury or Curry or Tim Thomas. Other than Z-Bo I don’t think I’ve ever liked a Knick less and now that Melo forced D’Antoni out and torpedoed our team with his selfishness and lack of perspective I might have to start to forgive Z-Bo. It’s going to be a tough couple of years.

    Go Blazers

    i bet Lebron James just called his pall Melo and said ” Hey Melo thanks for taking the role of the most hated player in the NBA. i think you transcended that position to the most hated sports figure of all time”. wow at least Lebron James showed hes a great player even though he was hated. Carmelo will never be great at anything with his current attitude and that’s a fact.

  167. Gamecockerbocker

    Via NBA on ESPN twitter: “Over last 10 games, no combo has put up a worse plus/minus rating than the Knicks two stars: Anthony and Stoudemire.” Our problems run deeper than head coaching.

  168. Z

    Ben R:
    Other than Z-Bo I don’t think I’ve ever liked a Knick less and now that Melo forced D’Antoni out and torpedoed our team with his selfishness and lack of perspective I might have to start to forgive Z-Bo. It’s going to be a tough couple of years.

    In my (long) life as a knick fan, there have only been two moments when I’ve hung my head and hated myself for not hating this team. The first was when Isiah traded for Zach Randolph. The second was this January 21st, when Gallinari played like the player we all hoped he’d become, and Carmelo played like the player we were all afraid we were getting.

  169. A Voice of Reason

    Here’s a thought:

    How much of the “offensive genius” title belongs to MDA vs Nash?

    Nash 75%
    MDA 25%

    Nash is doing the same things he was doing with MDA there, and with less talent.

  170. SeeWhyDee77

    Well..everybody saw that comin. Since woody was hired we were on D’Antoni watch. Sad cuz I like D’Antoni. He’s totally clueless when it comes to defense. But his “system” has brought tons of life back into the garden, an for that, I like him as our coach. But…he had me literally screaming at the top of my lungs during Monday’s Chicago tilt. Yal kno what I’m talkin about. When Melo broke the spacing to post Jimmy Butler up an threw a hissy fit cuz he ain’t get the ball. Melo was rite in that he had a mismatch..but he broke the offense an worse, it showed that that he didn’t respect or trust what his coach was running. Then he basically quit on defense. Ur coach is ur coach..do what he says until yal can talk about what u see on the floor. “BENCH HIM!!!”, I repeatedly screamed. It was insubordination. D’Antoni did nothin 2 hold him accountable. Therefore I have no problem with his “resignation”.

  171. xduckshoex

    A Voice of Reason:
    Here’s a thought:

    How much of the “offensive genius” title belongs to MDA vs Nash?

    Nash 75%
    MDA 25%

    Nash is doing the same things he was doing with MDA there, and with less talent.

    And last year the Knicks were doing the same things with the less talented Raymond Felton.

    And Nash is still playing well but the Suns are 18th in the NBA in offensive efficiency, far removed from their usual top two status under D’Antoni. AND the Suns are being coached by a D’Antoni protege so the principles are still the same. So if you want to argue that Nash is a great player in his own right, that’s fine, but his current success is not a reflection on D’Antoni in any way.

  172. DRed

    A source with knowledge of the discussions says D’Antoni and Knicks chairman James Dolan mutually agreed to terminate D’Antoni’s job with New York after the two met this morning.
    D’Antoni, the source said, had been advocating that the Knicks attempt to trade Anthony to the New Jersey Nets for guard Deron Williams, a deal D’Antoni believed would be beneficial for both franchises. But Dolan categorically declined that request, and the “conflicting visions” between the owner and head coach about Anthony meant there was no way forward.
    D’Antoni had hoped the Knicks’ inspired and winning play with Lin as the centerpiece — while Anthony and Stoudemire were injured — would convince Dolan the Knicks could win without Anthony. Bringing Williams from the Nets would also have eases the burden on Lin, D’Antoni believed, allowing Lin to settle into a three-guard rotation.

    Bottom line-it’s all window dressing until guitar Jimmy sells the team to someone who isn’t a fucking idiot or until we luck into a great player in the lottery.

  173. Ben R

    er:
    Get the fuck off the board then blazer fan…

    As for the Knicks I’ll root for them again tomorrow but honestly I don’t think I want them to win tonight. I don’t want to give Melo the satisfaction.

    Most of the team wanted D’Antoni to stay Melo did not. Most of the team wanted to run D’Antoni’s system Melo did not. Most of the team got along and took part in the huddles Melo did not. I saw one player sulking on the bench, I saw one player snapping at his teammates.

    The source of the problem was clear.

    But we sided with the problem we implicitly said that what Melo did was okay and that he is more important than everyone else on the team. That he chooses the coach, the system and everyone else can either go along or get out. This team is done. Who is on Melo’s side now. Amare, Lin, Fields, Jeffries, Tyson I think not. He threw Smith under the bus a week ago so he’s not on Melo’s side.

    We had a divided locker room with almost everyone on one side and chose the other side. We put one player ahead of the team, the fans, and the coach, the message that sends is clear.

  174. SeeWhyDee77

    Now…my only worry with woody takin the reins on an interim basis is how it effects the offense. Melo’s numbers will go up due 2 the increase in iso’s. But unless he incorporates more ball movement in his offense, everybody’s numbers will dip- except Melo an Davis. I am lost on how this new configuration will work. A week ago I was sure of our playoff spot. But now I am not so sure. The team has already proven what can be done with proper ball movement an a p&r point guard. Now we’re takin away Lin’s, Amare’s, and Chandler’s strengths if woody goes back 2 the system he ran in Atlanta. Yea..I’m so unsure of playoffs for our Knicks…

  175. Jake S.

    DRed:
    A source with knowledge of the discussions says D’Antoni and Knicks chairman James Dolan mutually agreed to terminate D’Antoni’s job with New York after the two met this morning.
    D’Antoni, the source said, had been advocating that the Knicks attempt to trade Anthony to the New Jersey Nets for guard Deron Williams, a deal D’Antoni believed would be beneficial for both franchises. But Dolan categorically declined that request, and the “conflicting visions” between the owner and head coach about Anthony meant there was no way forward.
    D’Antoni had hoped the Knicks’ inspired and winning play with Lin as the centerpiece — while Anthony and Stoudemire were injured — would convince Dolan the Knicks could win without Anthony. Bringing Williams from the Nets would also have eases the burden on Lin, D’Antoni believed, allowing Lin to settle into a three-guard rotation.

    Bottom line-it’s all window dressing until guitar Jimmy sells the team to someone who isn’t a fucking idiot or until we luck into a great player in the lottery.

    You know what’s horrifying? We just HAD a lottery moment when Lin fell out of the sky. Everything this guy touches turns to shit. Melo, D’Antoni…it all comes back to their owner.

  176. Tony Pena

    Wow. First time on the pc today. Kinda sad, but hey, he’s a millionaire in an entertainment business. And at least we didn’t get two months of D’Antoni vs. Melo camp, where sources say this and sources say that, all the while not really knowing the whole truth. I don’t see how this move can make us worse than we’ve been this year.

  177. A Voice of Reason

    xduckshoex: And last year the Knicks were doing the same things with the less talented Raymond Felton.

    And Nash is still playing well but the Suns are 18th in the NBA in offensive efficiency, far removed from their usual top two status under D’Antoni.AND the Suns are being coached by a D’Antoni protege so the principles are still the same.So if you want to argue that Nash is a great player in his own right, that’s fine, but his current success is not a reflection on D’Antoni in any way.

    My question was specifically Nash vs MDA, and that’s true. Suns have much less talent than they had when MDA was there, and that is also true. My argument is exactly what your last sentence states. Nash was great in spite of MDA, not because of him. MDA was great because of Steve Nash, not in spite of him. MDA is good, but this “great offensive coach” and “offensive genius” thing has really got to stop.

    In my humble opinion

  178. A Voice of Reason

    Tony Pena: at least we didn’t get two months of D’Antoni vs. Melo camp, where sources say this and sources say that, all the while not really knowing the whole truth. I don’t see how this move can make us worse than we’ve been this year.

    +24

  179. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    Ben R: As for the Knicks I’ll root for them again tomorrow but honestly I don’t think I want them to win tonight. I don’t want to give Melo the satisfaction.

    Most of the team wanted D’Antoni to stay Melo did not. Most of the team wanted to run D’Antoni’s system Melo did not. Most of the team got along and took part in the huddles Melo did not. I saw one player sulking on the bench, I saw one player snapping at his teammates.

    The source of the problem was clear.

    But we sided with the problem we implicitly said that what Melo did was okay and that he is more important than everyone else on the team. That he chooses the coach, the system and everyone else can either go along or get out. This team is done. Who is on Melo’s side now. Amare, Lin, Fields, Jeffries, Tyson I think not. He threw Smith under the bus a week ago so he’s not on Melo’s side.

    We had a divided locker room with almost everyone on one side and chose the other side. We put one player ahead of the team, the fans, and the coach, the message that sends is clear.

    +1,000,000,000,001

  180. Jake S.

    Ben R:
    Is there a more consistently dysfunctional than the Knicks?

    I have Stockholm Syndrome at this point. There is no reason for me to stay loyal to this team, and yet hear I am bantering with you schmucks.

  181. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    Jake S.: You know what’s horrifying? We just HAD a lottery moment when Lin fell out of the sky. Everything this guy touches turns to shit. Melo, D’Antoni…it all comes back to their owner.

    Not for nothing the best thing that can happen is that this whole thing blows up on Dolan, we lose almost every game, and get in the lottery were we have our pick this year.

    This pick is lottery guaranteed and that means Houston cant use it and we get a lottery pic in and absurdly deep draft

  182. Jake S.

    LMNYKFAN4LIFE: Not for nothing the best thing that can happen is that this whole thing blows up on Dolan, we lose almost every game, and get in the lottery were we have our pick this year.

    This pick is lottery guaranteed and that means Houston cant use it and we get a lottery pic in and absurdly deep draft

    The Knicks would have to go something like 2-22 the rest of the way to have any realistic shot at this. We’re deluding ourselves if we don’t see a landscape of scorched earth.

  183. LMNYKFAN4LIFE

    well with some luck it’ll be top five we can keep our fingers crossed i mean there is karma for knicks fans but then again there is karma for dolan smh were screwed

  184. Ben R

    Bruce Bowen Tweeted this in response to D’antoni’s resignation:

    “Sad to see the Knicks situation end this way if true. When do we hold players ACCOUNTABLE? Sad if this is the trend!”

    So true

  185. Jake S.

    Jake S.: I have Stockholm Syndrome at this point. There is no reason for me to stay loyal to this team, and yet hear I am bantering with you schmucks.

    Here I am. Ugh.

  186. xduckshoex

    A Voice of Reason: My question was specifically Nash vs MDA, and that’s true. Suns have much less talent than they had when MDA was there, and that is also true. My argument is exactly what your last sentence states. Nash was great in spite of MDA, not because of him. MDA was great because of Steve Nash, not in spite of him. MDA is good, but this “great offensive coach” and “offensive genius” thing has really got to stop.

    In my humble opinion

    But again, the Knicks were doing the same things last year with Raymond Felton, so how can you say that D’Antoni’s success was because of Steve Nash?

    There are huge, gaping holes in the things that people try to use to criticize D’Antoni. And that’s expected, because a track record like his in a league as competitive as the NBA SHOULD be above criticism, so any attempt to actually criticize it is ultimately going to come up short when scrutinized.

  187. xduckshoex

    So where are the Jerry Sloan rumours coming from? Has he actually said anything, or is this like the media speculating that Jackson wants to coach in NY after Jackson says he doesn’t?

  188. Juany8

    xduckshoex: But again, the Knicks were doing the same things last year with Raymond Felton, so how can you say that D’Antoni’s success was because of Steve Nash?

    There are huge, gaping holes in the things that people try to use to criticize D’Antoni.And that’s expected, because a track record like his in a league as competitive as the NBA SHOULD be above criticism, so any attempt to actually criticize it is ultimately going to come up short when scrutinized.

    So… is Alvin Gentry also an offensive genius? Because that team he took to the Western Conference Finals was just as good as any of D’Antoni’s teams in terms of offense. How about in Dallas, where they’ve had a revolving door of coaches, yet they always won 50+ games and were a threat to win a ring during the past decade. Is Mike Brown an incredible coach? Not many coaches get back to back 60 win seasons.

    The NBA is mostly a players league, but there are a few coaches that can make a legitimate impact on a team’s win-loss record. D’Antoni is the only one I can think of where a team gets worse if he doesn’t get the kind of player he wants (and of course, prodigy point guards are just lying around out there for the taking…). Name me one other coach that has this issue? For other coaches, front offices try to go out and get good players that can fit together, while D’antoni apparently needs to be a college coach and win by his system, not by his player’s strengths.

  189. Degree_Absolute

    Knicks4Eva:
    Dolan press conference on ESPN now.

    Can some self-respecting journalist please throw a shoe at that rich, vacuous, (calls-it-basketball-but-it-is-actually)dysfunction-monger?

  190. Z

    Jake S.:
    Why does Dolan even have a GM?

    He doesn’t. Walsh never hired one. And when Walsh left, Glen Grunwald was labeled “interim GM”, but he’s still officially a senior vice-president.

  191. Degree_Absolute

    Knicks4Eva:
    He actually seems upset.

    Well he is a complete embarrassment of an owner (and human being) so that seems like the only rational reaction.

  192. A Voice of Reason

    xduckshoex: But again, the Knicks were doing the same things last year with Raymond Felton, so how can you say that D’Antoni’s success was because of Steve Nash?

    There are huge, gaping holes in the things that people try to use to criticize D’Antoni.And that’s expected, because a track record like his in a league as competitive as the NBA SHOULD be above criticism, so any attempt to actually criticize it is ultimately going to come up short when scrutinized.

    “same things”? we were .500 man, albeit an improvement, we were a .500 team…hardly the “same things” Nash was doing with MDA in Phoenix… Also, nobody outside a select few coaches are “above criticism”. I won’t knock your vague support of him, but don’t knock my specific critique.

  193. Z

    Knicks now have:

    no Gallinari
    no draft picks
    no president
    no GM
    no coach
    no playoff wins in 12 years

    Sell the Knicks, Dolan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  194. xduckshoex

    Juany8: So… is Alvin Gentry also an offensive genius? Because that team he took to the Western Conference Finals was just as good as any of D’Antoni’s teams in terms of offense. How about in Dallas, where they’ve had a revolving door of coaches, yet they always won 50+ games and were a threat to win a ring during the past decade. Is Mike Brown an incredible coach? Not many coaches get back to back 60 win seasons.

    The NBA is mostly a players league, but there are a few coaches that can make a legitimate impact on a team’s win-loss record. D’Antoni is the only one I can think of where a team gets worse if he doesn’t get the kind of player he wants (and of course, prodigy point guards are just lying around out there for the taking…). Name me one other coach that has this issue? For other coaches, front offices try to go out and get good players that can fit together, while D’antoni apparently needs to be a college coach and win by his system, not by his player’s strengths.

    This is getting absurd. Gentry coached a really deep Suns team to the top ranking in the NBA one time, and he did it by employing the principles taught to him by D’Antoni. How can you actually argue that it somehow puts him on D’Antoni’s level? Arguing that the Suns continued to have a great offense after going back to playing D’Antoni’s style of play is somehow a knock on D’Antoni makes absolutely no sense at all.

    And EVERY coach will have an issue if they have a high profile player who does not buy in to what the coach wants to do. Again, you actually think that abandoning something that you have seen great success with in the past and which works for everyone on your team except for one spoiled brat of a “star” is considered good coaching? I have no idea how that makes sense on any level. That’s essentially telling the players that they don’t need to listen to…

  195. Juany8

    xduckshoex: This is getting absurd.Gentry coached a really deep Suns team to the top ranking in the NBA one time, and he did it by employing the principles taught to him by D’Antoni.How can you actually argue that it somehow puts him on D’Antoni’s level?Arguing that the Suns continued to have a great offense after going back to playing D’Antoni’s style of play is somehow a knock on D’Antoni makes absolutely no sense at all.

    And EVERY coach will have an issue if they have a high profile player who does not buy in to what the coach wants to do.Again, you actually think that abandoning something that you have seen great success with in the past and which works for everyone on your team except for one spoiled brat of a “star” is considered good coaching?I have no idea how that makes sense on any level.That’s essentially telling the players that they don’t need to listen to…

  196. Degree_Absolute

    “I believe in our players. I believe in our talent. I believe in their commitment to get the team together and get this right. I believe we have the talent and character to succeed. I believe we can do it.”

    – James Dolan

    Very inspiring words coming from a man who is best known for holding an entire fan-base hostage with his complete and utter idiocy.

  197. xduckshoex

    A Voice of Reason: “same things”? we were .500 man, albeit an improvement, we were a .500 team…hardly the “same things” Nash was doing with MDA in Phoenix… Also, nobody outside a select few coaches are “above criticism”. I won’t knock your vague support of him, but don’t knock my specific critique.

    I’ll knock your “specific critique” until it makes sense. The Knicks were a top 5 offense with Raymond Felton…either you think he’s almost as good as Nash, or you think that D’Antoni can coach a great offense without Nash. There really isn’t a lot of room for middle ground there.

    And your “specific critique” isn’t really all that specific, it’s just the same collection of half-truths stripped of context that people have been throwing around since 2006. For example, pointing out that the Knicks weren’t as good as the Suns and concluding that D’Antoni needed Nash only works if the presence or absence of Nash is the only thing that changed from one team to the next, but that’s not the case. There are hundreds of differences between the two situations, you’re just over-simplifying because you want to prove a point and looking at the big picture doesn’t allow you to actually do so.

  198. Juany8

    Oops, accidentally hit submit. Regardless my point was not that Alvin Gentry or Mike Brown were great coaches but that they were not, they are 100% replaceable without losing much for the team, just like D’Antoni. And no, D’Antoni should not have bent to Anthony’s whims, but at the same time Anthony was brought here because of the way he played. D’Antoni lately has totally ignored Carmelo’s strengths and has instead set him up on the wing like he’s fucking Shawn Marion. Then he uses Lin like he’s Steve Nash, which to me appears to be a case of a coach trying to fit players to his system instead of fitting his system to the players, which is just absolutely fucking pathetic. Again, coaches like Jim Boeheim get paid well to go coach a very specific system in college. If D’Antoni needs that kind of freedom to succeed, he sucks as a professional coach, period.

  199. max fisher-cohen

    Jake S.: The Knicks would have to go something like 2-22 the rest of the way to have any realistic shot at this. We’re deluding ourselves if we don’t see a landscape of scorched earth.

    The Knicks are 4 1/2 games back of the 7 seed, and 4 1/2 games ahead of New Jersey. Just as likely IMO they drop down to the 5th pick range as they move up to 7th seed. If they dropped below NJ, they’d have the 4th worse record in the league. The Knicks would probably have to go 4-20 to close out the season to end up there, but their record with Carmelo this year is 11-23, and our schedule so far has still been easy even after the recent tough matchups. If Stoudemire, Lin, Jeffries and Chandler don’t have the same fire, 4-20 doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

    Dolan, of course, would probably trade that pick for a twelve pack of Corona for Carmelo Anthony to thank him for suffering through a season with such a bad supporting cast and coach.

  200. Degree_Absolute

    Dolan’s press conference was a complete waste of time. No surprise that he classlessly piled all the blame on the scapegoat D’Antoni. No criticism whatsoever of his star player(s).

    Does the MSG crowd boo tonight or will it be so stunned and emotionally spent that it won’t know how to react?

  201. Caleb

    Thing is, in the short term they will probably do better. We’ve been unlucky; Knicks have actually outscored the opposition and should probably be about 21-20, instead of 18-23. The schedule is tougher than it’s been the first 40 games, but the team is more at full strength. Plus odds are that Melo and Stoudemire will play a little better than they have. And teams usually get a little momentum after things like this.

    I’d guess they’ll go about 13-12 or 14-11, the rest of the way. Tight with Milwaukee for the 8 spot, then if they make it get wiped out in the 1st round.

    We cry as Houston takes our #15 pick, then cry harder as John Calipari is introduced as the next coach. Or possibly – surprise! – Woody gets the top job, after the big names flake out. THanks to his great turnaround job that got the Knicks into the playoffs.

  202. Brian Cronin

    Or possibly – surprise! – Woody gets the top job, after the big names flake out. THanks to his great turnaround job that got the Knicks into the playoffs.

    This is my nightmare scenario.

  203. JR Sec 112

    A few thoughts….trying to look at things from a more optimistic point of view.

    1. If you think less (Melo) is more, this is the best day to be a Knicks fan since the Trade. Surely Melo will now be held accountable, if not by Woodson or the next head coach, then by the fans. More losing and poor play and the venom in the Garden will be unbearable. He will be demanding out in no time. Surely something of value can be obtained in the offseason for Melo with 3 years left on his deal.

    2. Alternative scenario – new coach provides new energy, Melo is shamed into sacrificing, and the team goes on a quick run, electrifying MSG again. Unlikely, but its been done before for lesser coaches (see Nets, Lawrence Frank)

    3. Either way, my guess is Phil comes to NY for one last challenge next year.

    What’s the downside here? A few more losses in this truncated season? Small price to pay. Besides, the schadenfreude watching Melo implode and the merciless booing will be fun, no? There are still assets on this time, so this is much different than the Isiah/Marbury years.

    There is only one absolutely nightmarish situation….surprised his name hasnt come up on the board yet today as a potential replacement coach next year. Hint: he’s currently the head coach at Florida International University. However, I think David Stern will personally make that unlikely.

    All things considered, this is actually a pretty good day to be a Knicks fan.

  204. Ben R

    Can’t you see that bending to the whim of your superstar so he can play the way he always has is the best option. I mean Melo made the playoffs in Denver, Denver!!!, and he was playing with terrible players like Lawson and Afflalo and Nene. I mean Nene doesn’t even have a last name and Melo still dragged his ass to the playoffs, how can we criticize Melo. Screw trying to play to your other maxed out players strengths, screw trying to preach spacing and ball movement your superstar was unhappy lets all get in line so Melo can have his 25 shots from the elbow.

  205. xduckshoex

    Juany8:
    Oops, accidentally hit submit. Regardless my point was not that Alvin Gentry or Mike Brown were great coaches but that they were not, they are 100% replaceable without losing much for the team, just like D’Antoni. And no, D’Antoni should not have bent to Anthony’s whims, but at the same time Anthony was brought here because of the way he played. D’Antoni lately has totally ignored Carmelo’s strengths and has instead set him up on the wing like he’s fucking Shawn Marion. Then he uses Lin like he’s Steve Nash, which to me appears to be a case of a coach trying to fit players to his system instead of fitting his system to the players, which is just absolutely fucking pathetic. Again, coaches like Jim Boeheim get paid well to go coach a very specific system in college. If D’Antoni needs that kind of freedom to succeed, he sucks as a professional coach, period.

    What you are saying is true of every coach. Phil Jackson forced players to fit into the triangle. Sloan forced everyone to play in his flex offense. Every coach has principles that they adhere to, none of them abandon them in favour of a spoiled brat star and none of them have ever endured any serious criticism for sticking with what they know. Every NBA coach has the freedom to use the players the way that they think is best for the team, that’s what coaching is. This is making less and less sense as you expand on it.

    And you’re not saying that he should have abandoned the offense in favour of what Melo wanted to do(which would have been necessary to placate him because his isolation ball does not fit at all), but you’re saying he shouldn’t have stuck with what he was doing….what should he have done then? It sounds like you’re not satisfied either way in a situation without a lot of middle ground.

  206. A Voice of Reason

    xduckshoex: I’ll knock your “specific critique” until it makes sense.The Knicks were a top 5 offense with Raymond Felton…either you think he’s almost as good as Nash, or you think that D’Antoni can coach a great offense without Nash.There really isn’t a lot of room for middle ground there.

    And your “specific critique” isn’t really all that specific, it’s just the same collection of half-truths stripped of context that people have been throwing around since 2006.For example, pointing out that the Knicks weren’t as good as the Suns and concluding that D’Antoni needed Nash only works if the presence or absence of Nash is the only thing that changed from one team to the next, but that’s not the case.There are hundreds of differences between the two situations, you’re just over-simplifying because you want to prove a point and looking at the big picture doesn’t allow you to actually do so.

    eloquent retort, although you still aren’t making much sense…you are obviously in defense of MDA, so if my critique of him is not specific, what about your defense of him is? Sure there are many variables that are unaccounted for in this “barely scratching the surface” debate. I honestly don’t have the time nor interest to go and retrieve each one. I am glad he is gone, although I am sure he will land somewhere with an elite PG (LA Clips) and return to being an “offensive genius”. He’s a good coach, this I have not denied. He was not a fit for the pieces we have.

    Half truths?

    We were .500. That is a whole truth.

    Wins are really all I care about at the heart of it. I appreciate your engagement in the argument with me.

  207. nicos

    Juany8:
    D’Antoni lately has totally ignored Carmelo’s strengths and has instead set him up on the wing like he’s fucking Shawn Marion.

    Your talking about 10 games. Melo iso’d all of last year and the Knicks went .500 and got swept in the first round. Melo continued to iso early this year and the Knicks were 8 games under .500 prior to Linsanity. D’A did what a coach was supposed to do- when something isn’t working, stop doing it. Other than the Dallas game, the Knicks issues over the losing streak haven’t really been on the offensive end- it’s been defense and rebounding- and letting Melo iso to his hearts content ain’t going to fix that.

  208. Will the Thrill

    Exactly, people act like Melo was never given a chance to play the way he wanted with D’antoni. He had his chance and it failed!!!

    nicos: Your talking about 10 games. Melo iso’d all of last year and the Knicks went .500 and got swept in the first round.Melo continued to iso early this year and the Knicks were 8 games under .500 prior to Linsanity.D’A did what a coach was supposed to do- when something isn’t working, stop doing it.Other than the Dallas game, the Knicks issues over the losing streak haven’t really been on the offensive end- it’s been defense and rebounding- and letting Melo iso to his hearts content ain’t going to fix that.

  209. Juany8

    xduckshoex: What you are saying is true of every coach.Phil Jackson forced players to fit into the triangle.Sloan forced everyone to play in his flex offense.Every coach has principles that they adhere to, none of them abandon them in favour of a spoiled brat star and none of them have ever endured any serious criticism for sticking with what they know.Every NBA coach has the freedom to use the players the way that they think is best for the team, that’s what coaching is.This is making less and less sense as you expand on it.

    And you’re not saying that he should have abandoned the offense in favour of what Melo wanted to do(which would have been necessary to placate him because his isolation ball does not fit at all), but you’re saying he shouldn’t have stuck with what he was doing….what should he have done then?It sounds like you’re not satisfied either way in a situation without a lot of middle ground.

    So I can’t ignore context but you can? Who was a bigger problem earlier in the year, TD, Bibby, and Walker, or Melo? Who’s played better between our 2 max players, Amar’e or Melo? Last year was it really Melo that ruined the team, or the fact that Chauncey got injured shortly after the Knicks beat Miami? Landry still can’t defend or shoot 3′s, who’s fault has that been?

    No Melo should not simply get to do whatever on offense, but coaches place their players in positions to succeed based on where they are best. This year, Carmelo has been one of the best players in the entire league running the pick and roll and posting up. That is a fact. It is also a fact that since Lin came in, Melo has stopped doing those 2 things in favor of spotting up and cutting to the rim. If that’s what you want to use Melo for, you are a shit coach, and either the coach or the player needs to go.

  210. er

    You are wrong he asked melo to play point forward this year

    Will the Thrill:
    Exactly, people act like Melo was never given a chance to play the way he wanted with D’antoni.He had his chance and it failed!!!

  211. Juany8

    Will the Thrill:
    Exactly, people act like Melo was never given a chance to play the way he wanted with D’antoni.He had his chance and it failed!!!

    Carmelo was having the best statistical period of his career last year with the Knicks and early on this year. Was it really his fault we were losing, or the fact that we were playing the 2 worst players in the NBA as our PG’s, until we turned to a rookie that had shot selection problems in college. When you add up that Amar’e has been worse than him in every way, the only way this season is on Melo is if you don’t like him. He has been worse than at any time in his career, this is true. He still hasn’t been as bad as multiple other players on the team (3 or 4 of whom have been totally benched this season after starting multiple games), so blaming him for everything is pretty dishonest.

  212. Ben R

    Juany8: So I can’t ignore context but you can? Who was a bigger problem earlier in the year, TD, Bibby, and Walker, or Melo? Who’s played better between our 2 max players, Amar’e or Melo? Last year was it really Melo that ruined the team, or the fact that Chauncey got injured shortly after the Knicks beat Miami? Landry still can’t defend or shoot 3?s, who’s fault has that been?

    No Melo should not simply get to do whatever on offense, but coaches place their players in positions to succeed based on where they are best. This year, Carmelo has been one of the best players in the entire league running the pick and roll and posting up. That is a fact. It is also a fact that since Lin came in, Melo has stopped doing those 2 things in favor of spotting up and cutting to the rim. If that’s what you want to use Melo for, you are a shit coach, and either the coach or the player needs to go.

    We were winning with Lin leading the charge, Amare was finally getting on track. Maybe Melo could have bought in for you know a couple of weeks to see if we kept winning. Maybe Melo’s role could have slowly increased as the new Knicks offense gelled around him. Maybe Melo would have had more opporunities to score and not less. We were bad with Melo playing like Melo, we were good with Lin playing SSOL. Maybe Melo could have given the new offense a shot rather than sabotaging the team.

    But that doesn’t fit with the narrative in Melo’s head. He needs to be the hero, not just a piece of a well running machine. He would rather score 25 a night on a team that wins 40 games than 15 a night on a contender. For that reason he will never be great until he figures himself out.

  213. Juany8

    Ben R: We were winning with Lin leading the charge, Amare was finally getting on track. Maybe Melo could have bought in for you know a couple of weeks to see if we kept winning. Maybe Melo’s role could have slowly increased as the new Knicks offense gelled around him. Maybe Melo would have had more opporunities to score and not less. We were bad with Melo playing like Melo, we were good with Lin playing SSOL. Maybe Melo could have given the new offense a shot rather than sabotaging the team.

    But that doesn’t fit with the narrative in Melo’s head. He needs to be the hero, not just a piece of a well running machine. He would rather score 25 a night on a team that wins 40 games than 15 a night on a contender. For that reason he will never be great until he figures himself out.

    And I assume you know this because you two have a long history together and he trusts you with his inner thoughts right? Also, everyone needs to get over the 7 game streak, we were having trouble beating some of the worst teams in the league and Lin has totally crashed back to earth since then. I was the biggest Lin “hater” (realist really) during the 7 game streak, where as a Rockets fan I was glad they kept Goran Dragic and Kyle Lowry over Lin (again, during the winning streak, when he had a 25 PER). I said I expected Lin to fall back to around 15 and 7 on decent shooting, and that he could eventually become a top 10 point guard in the league given time to improve. The Linsanity team would have lost by an average of 20 points to a team like Chicago in the playoffs, the only things that team did was play solid defense and watch Lin constantly drive at the basket.

  214. Will the Thrill

    You see, he was having HIS best statistical period of his career, and the team was hovering around .500, the rest of the team struggles when he plays his way.

    Juany8: Carmelo was having the best statistical period of his career last year with the Knicks and early on this year. Was it really his fault we were losing, or the fact that we were playing the 2 worst players in the NBA as our PG’s, until we turned to a rookie that had shot selection problems in college. When you add up that Amar’e has been worse than him in every way, the only way this season is on Melo is if you don’t like him. He has been worse than at any time in his career, this is true. He still hasn’t been as bad as multiple other players on the team (3 or 4 of whom have been totally benched this season after starting multiple games), so blaming him for everything is pretty dishonest.

  215. Tony Pena

    xduckshoex: What you are saying is true of every coach.Phil Jackson forced players to fit into the triangle.Sloan forced everyone to play in his flex offense.Every coach has principles that they adhere to, none of them abandon them in favour of a spoiled brat star…

    I think it’s fair to say that MDA’s system calls for an unorthodox rotation and consequently, roster. And it seems pretty rigid about this. You can’t honestly say that Phil, Doc, Sloan couldn’t use Melo’s post game as a weapon. Or that any of them couldn’t use Malone or Kobe. They seem interchangeable. But what would Pierce’s game be in Mike’s system? A slasher, roll off screens all-day game?

    It’s very rigid, and his defensive strategy and first four years of success can be questioned. So, he’s probably a good coach. Is he great? That’s as debatable as Melo’s a top 15 player.

  216. Juany8

    Will the Thrill:
    You see, he was having HIS best statistical period of his career, and the team was hovering around .500, the rest of the team struggles when he plays his way.

    Way to ignore 90% of the post. When someone is having the best period of his career, and he’s playing with scrubs at two starting positions (d-league level scrubs by the way) the only way you blame the better player is if you don’t like him. Unless you also think it’s Kevin Love’s fault that the Timberwolves had the worst record in the league last year, instead of Kahn, Darko, Rambis…. Or did Dwyane Wade suck before he got Lebron and after Shaq, when he had trouble winning 50 games in a joke of an Eastern Conference? I’d personally blame the scrubs around him, I like blaming the players who are sucking for the team’s troubles, regardless of salary. Salaries determine player movement, once a player is on a team there’s no point in talking about his salary, it’s not going to change how he plays.

  217. ww007

    So sad to see it end this way. A season that began with so much hope and promise with the Chandler signing, then the emergence of Lin, is now basically down the crapper. Even if they go on to make the playoffs or even advance to the 2nd round, this team is still in turmoil as they will still need to find a head coach, then implement a new system, and everything starts all over again.

    Granted D’Antoni wasn’t the best coach in the world, but you could see his system working when Linsanity took over. As others have said, when you hire a head coach, you need to give him players that fit his system. You can’t undermine him by getting rid of players that he wanted and trading them for someone he didn’t.

    Ultimately I think the greatest failing of D’Antoni wasn’t that he didn’t really preach defense, it was that he never stood up to his superstars. He could have forced Melo to play his style by saying to him, “Play my style or else I’ll bench you.” Strange how he had no qualms benching Starbury without even giving him a chance yet after it was clear that Melo wasn’t doing what he was supposed to, he continued to start him.

    But I am still sad to see him go. He was never really given a chance or the personnel.

    It’ll be interesting to see how Melo does now. It’s now all on him. I’m guessing he’s gonna become the complete focal point of the offense, win or lose. The worst part is even if this somehow works out and they start winning games, it will still give you a hollow feeling inside.

  218. limpidgimp

    By making the situation impossible for D’Antoni and making him leave, that now leaves only one target to attract rabid fan frustration. Dolan, for all his love of Melo, has actually hurt his darling. The booing and hate is going to reach greater proportions.

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