Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, November 1, 2014

Might As Well Get This Out While The David Lee Lovefest Continues

For the people that think Lee can’t survive in the half court: Did you see yesterday’s game? I’ve noticed that David “General” Lee (thanks DRED) has been playing really well on offense, especially with the ball in his hands. He likes to get it 10 feet from the hoop, and in the past he’d just try to drive baseline & use his finishing skills to score. But recently he’s added a little jumper that he works from that same spot. He didn’t hit it yesterday (I only remember him attempting it once), but the General has hit that shot this season.

Lee nailed a ten footer on Monday I believe, which prompted a pretty noticeable remark from Clyde. In just about every game Frazier points out one play that the player was practicing on. Clyde did it last night when one of the Cavs had the ball – and remarked how the player was working on that shot before the game. In any case when Lee hit the shot on Monday, Clyde remarked how Lee had been practicing that shot and working with Aguirre. That’s a good sign that Lee is attempting to improve himself. I’m sure in college he was a fine player without a jumper, that usually happens with NBA caliber players. Why shoot a jumpshot when you can repeatedly beat them inside? But in the NBA, the level of play is higher, and you’re no longer better than 99% of the competition – so you have to improve yourself.

Now I know this may come to Owen’s chagrin, because efficient scoring usually occurs near the hoop. However, it seems that Lee often does this early in order to make his defender play him tighter on the perimeter. Of course that he does it from the same spot where he likes to setup on offense means that Lee is developing into a more complete player in the half court set. No longer can defenders step back and prepare for a drive, because Lee is apt to hoist a jumper.

And the results? According to 82games, Lee is shooting 38.9% eFG from the outside. Consider that Zach Randolph is shooting 37.0 % eFG, and you have to think that Lee is at least competent with his shot. The good news is that only 24% of Lee’s shots have been classified as “jump” shots by 82games, whereas Randolph’s repertoire consists is 56% jumpshots. Well I guess that’s not good news for Zach Randolph…

But what’s just as impressive is Lee’s passing skills. He’s not particularly good at threading the needle inside – but what he’s good at is finding the open man on the perimeter. At times Lee knows who he’s going to pass the ball to before he gets it, and at times he’s good at scanning the field when he receives the ball – waiting for the offense to unfold. He doesn’t create double teams or make other guys open, but he does get the ball to the right guy at the right time. And while you might look at his assist numbers and think he’s a greedy ballhog, it’s probably better to look at his turnovers to put it into context. Lee rarely handles the ball on offense, probably by design, but he also rarely coughs it up. Consider that Randolph and Curry give the ball away two and a half times as often, and you can find another of Lee’s strength on offense.

Sure I know yesterday was one of Lee’s finest games, but from what I’ve seen this season it’s not a big surprise that he had a game of that magnitude. And while Lee isn’t going to dribble past his guy for a two handed flush every time (like he did to Zydrunas), and he’s not going to save the Knicks this year, he’s certainly not the one dimensional Reggie Evans that some Knick fans paint him out to be. New York has been just fine with Lee in the half court on offense, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

93 comments on “Might As Well Get This Out While The David Lee Lovefest Continues

  1. Mr. Black

    “General” Lee?

    Are we talkinging about the car or the confederate general? I hope neither.

    I like David “Wonderful” Lee. Get it?

    I am glad Lee played 2x Curry’s minutes and plus 10 of Randolphs.

    Lee took full advantage of an unmotivated Cavs team. Even Jared looked good last night. To Lee’s credit he did manage to take advantage where Curry was unable, so kudos to Lee.
    Lets see if he can keep it going.

  2. Brendan

    Very well said. If you wanted to play down Lee’s game tonight you’d be within your rights to point out that a lot of guys look good with Big Z’s comical handwaving defense to play against, but I actually thought his scoring and assertiveness tonight spoke to the heart of his value to the team- he knows who he is.

    In general, what he does expands and contracts in response to what he can do against his defender, who’s on the court with him, ect. It’s why his mistake rate is so low, I think- he makes the makeable play, takes the shot he can make and doesn’t force them, keeps the ball moving and concentrates on his niche. Guys like that are always useful, especially when they’re surrounded by high-useage/bad shot types, and even more so when they’re not afraid to step up and take shots when they happen to be the best option at the moment.

    That he’s able and willing to keep developing new skills, and then to deploy them when the time is right, is all the better. He doesn’t have the talent ceiling to be a “great” player, but he’s one of the few Thomas-era Knicks you could see as a contributor on a contending team some day.

  3. Owen

    Well, both Lee’s played the same role, the best soldiers for a losing cause.

    And Lee is nothing if not the working man’s hot rod, so that comparison works too for me…

  4. Mr. Black

    There is one guy that did manage not to look good against the Cavs, Mardy Collins. He went 0-1 from the floor which drops his season FG% below .200 (5-26). He missed a shot that was at point blank range, with not alot of defense being played.

    Is he like Sampson? As he goes bald, his offense gets weaker?

  5. Brian Cronin

    Do you think there’s an NBA team out there that would trade, like, a 2013 second round draft pick for Mardy Collins? Or hell, just cash?

    I’d love to see Jared Jordan get a shot again. He’s in Europe right now, but you know he’d love to come back to the NBA.

    By the by, did anyone notice that Nichols is on Chicago now after getting cut by Cleveland?

  6. Brian Cronin

    Hehe…I know this line is old, but it made me laugh.

    “Kobe should not complain – look at the talent Dwyane Wade is surrounded by! If I’m Wade, I’m asking Pat Riley – ‘Please, trade me to LA so I can play with Andrew Bynum and Jordan Farmer!'”

  7. Z

    I’ve sat through some painful games so far this season. And the one I miss and forget to tape is the best game they are going to play all year.

    Oh well.

    “Do you think there?s an NBA team out there that would trade, like, a 2013 second round draft pick for Mardy Collins? Or hell, just cash?”

    Isiah could have cut Collins in favor of Nichols in October. That would have been the equiv. of trading Collins for Nichols now. (Same for your man Jared Jordan). I’d rather have either of them than Collins.

  8. Brian Cronin

    While I would pick either of them over Collins NOW, I don’t think that was clearly evident in October.

    It sure is evident now, though.

  9. retropkid

    both Larry Brown and Zeke seem to think he should be called David “Gradual” Lee …that’s how they’ve brought him along in PT…

    Knicks actually made over 50% FGs…note that Marbury didn’t even play and Curry not a factor in impressive first half. Hmmm….

    If Q can continue to hit over 50% of his 3s, we’ll make the play-offs! :)

  10. Caleb

    DL’s rebound numbers were actually (slightly) lower than the season rate… scoring was 23 per 40, instead of the season rate of 15… and of course he won’t shoot 75% for the season… but if he plays 35 minutes a night we’ll see a lot of these.

    Before the season it was obvious that our defense would be horrendous, but I thought we’d have one of the better offenses… I thought we’d see a lot of games like last night, when shots were falling and we could knock off good teams.

    And what IS up with Balkman? Has any reporter even asked if he’s hurt? Probably not – most of them don’t even notice. Vecsey is the only NY reporter to point out that RB should play big minutes.

  11. retropkid

    Is this a crazy idea:

    Play Zach and Lee up front with a small team for major minutes…while under-sized, they both have ability to hit boards pretty well…get Crawford, Balkman, Nate (if he can get PT), et al running…go small ball, run the floor all night– it’s not like we have lights out jump shooters on the team. Marbury could actually thrive in an up-tempo offense too. We will still have turn-overs, but more shot attempts per game may be a good trade-off…presumably a few fast-break lay-ups improve shooting percentage.

    Go Zone on D, we don’t miss Eddie for blocks or intimidation.

    At minimum, it would be much more fun to watch, more athletic, more pace, more energy, and get our young guys PT — I think most of us would stomach Ls better if we had our young guys out there hustling and improving.

  12. Owen

    David Lee’s TS% just cracked 60%….

    Caleb, Zach is now at 51%, but it’s a long road from there to 54%…

    It was nice to see units out there last night where people weren’t fighting over who was going to take the shots…

  13. Caleb

    Owen, my theory was that Curry would be the one to suffer in this pairing, but as you’ve pointed out, there was some sort of reverse gravity which pushed Randolph out towards the free throw line.

    I also thought Randolph’s efficiency would be helped by his usage rate coming down (I think it was highest in the league last year) but that hasn’t happened either. Probably last year’s 53.7 was just an aberration.

    But for the sake of argument I won’t concede… if he can go around 55+ the rest of the year, he could still crack 54. Not totally unattainable, not quite yet.

  14. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I prefer David “Buddy” Lee (corporate shill factor notwithstanding)

    Owen, I hope your Civil War analogy doesn’t imply that you root for the South, too?

  15. Owen

    Yes, I love the South, slavery and statistics….

    ;-)

    I liked it better in the Dukes of Hazzard sense of a blue-collar hot rod.

    R.E. Lee was an honorable man, and known for helping his side prevail against superior forces. But that would be far from my first choice of historical figures to have DLee associated with, though I think it rolls off the tongue. Maybe Gandhi, or Moses, leading the Knicks nation out of bondage to the Promised Land.

    Perhaps we should just stick with Good Things….

  16. PeteRoc

    Call me crazy, but I think the reason DL’s minutes have been down (but may stay up consistently in the next few games) is the result of IS acknowledging to himself what has been a failed experiment.

    For the team to be “good” in the east (which I define as seeded 1-5 for the playoffs), he needs Zach and Eddie to contribute 17-22 pts a piece on average with DL filling the gap with his own 17-22 pt games on the nights were one of the former don’t have it. On nights where the 17-22 pts are there for Zach and Eddie, DL can still be counted on to make a contribution given he does so already without having to have plays called for him.

    I think Zach will likely be at the prerequisite benchmark on average. However, Eddie’s peaks and valleys are just too pronounced. I don’t think anyone’s surprised when he goes for 25 pts, but neither are his below (or barely) double-digit games. Because he’s not going to contribute the blocks, rebounds, or interior defense that otherwise could offset an off-night offensively, the team is just not as good in the long run if Zach and DL are the only contributors on the front line. I think IS was sticking with Eddie and hoping he’d develop the consistency on offense (for the long haul), to allow the team settle into a more consistent rotation.

    Effective last night, that experiment may be out the window. Unfortunately, I just don’t think this team can win consistently with only Zach and DL contributing in the front court. Eddie is the least likely to contribute anything with reduced minutes.

  17. Caleb

    headline writer gone wild…

    “Special D-Leevery”

    “B-Leeve It!”

    “Goliath Benched for David”

    After the next matinee;
    “Garden D Lee-t!”

  18. Frank O.

    David Lee’s stats this year with 30 minutes or more.

    Dec. 19 defeated Cleveland
    38 min, 9-12, 4-4 FT, 11 reb, 1 TO, 22 pts.

    Dec. 12 loss to Seattle
    32 min, 7-11, 2-2 FT, 7 reb, 2 TO, 16 pts

    Dec. 8 loss to Phillie
    33 min, 4-8, 2-4 FT, 11 reb, 0 TO, 10 pts.

    Dec. 7 loss to Phillie
    32 min, 7-10, 2-3 FT, 11 reb, 2 TO, 16 pts.

    Dec. defeated NJ
    38 min, 4-6, 5-5 FT, 7 reb, 1 TO, 13 pts.

    Nov. 16 loss to Sac.
    50 min, 8-12, 8-10 FT, 16 reb, 2 TO, 24 pts.

    Nov. 11 loss to Miami
    39 min, 6-15, 2-2 FT, 14 reb, 3 TO, 14 pts.

    Lee?s Averages in those games
    Shooting FT RPG TOPG PPG
    60.8% 83.3% 11 1.5 16.4

    What is most remarkable about Lee’s numbers are that he is achieving this level of scoring at a remarkably efficient rate. He’s taking only 10.5 shots per game during these 30-minute-plus efforts.
    What this mean is that Isiah needs to keep Lee on the floor. No one on this team comes close to his level of efficiency. It is clear this is a better team with Lee on the floor.

    If there is an area where Lee could improve it would be getting to the line. He shoots 83.3 percent from the line. That kind of efficiency is a fantastic weapon.
    On another note, this summer, Lee should hit the weight room some. He could use a bit more strength. It might cut down on blocks against him, and he may be able to guard other PFs more effectively.

    But those stats in games where he plays 30 minutes or more are a clear indication that given the chance, this kid produces

  19. T-Mart

    “On another note, this summer, Lee should hit the weight room some. He could use a bit more strength. It might cut down on blocks against him, and he may be able to guard other PFs more effectively.”

    He already tried that at Florida. It’s the reason we got him with the last pick of the 1st round. His final season was terrible because of how sluggish he was with the added bulk.

  20. Z

    David ?Oak? Lee!

    I love it.

    “or Moses, leading the Knicks nation out of bondage to the Promised Land.”

    This is definitely Jerome James as soon as his foot is healed…

  21. Alec

    Frank O,
    Nice research on the stats, but I saw the same ones a while back on Balkman. If he played over 20 he was great.
    While I concede that the more you play, the better feel for the game you have, but Lee can’t push those number every game. The reason he played over 30 in the instances you mentioned, was because he was great.
    If he isn’t playing at that level, he deserves around 25. If he’s as good as he was last night, then you keep playing him. But he isnt that good usually.

  22. Mr. Black

    That David Lee Tee shirt on Zazzle has got to be one of the cheesiest things I have laid eyes on. That is worst than the bootleg, air brushed Tee they sell out side the Grade when Jay-z performs. There is no way that is officially licensed by the NBA.

    The “General” looks alot like Cotton at the end of Bless the Beasts and Children.

  23. Owen

    Whoa, ugly t-shirt…

    Alex – The reason Lee hasn’t played this year is the arrival of Randolph. Lee played 30 minutes per game last year, and played great, no reason he shouldn’t be doing the same this year.

  24. Count Zero

    This is precisely what irks me the most about IT. After that pathetic loss to the Pacers, he said everyone gave up except Lee. As a result of that, he absolutely had to give Lee minutes last night. Lo and behold…look what happens. Lee plays great, Knicks have their best game of the season.

    Gee, 90% of the posters here have been telling him to do that since game 1. But no…IT had so much invested in his flawed theory of using Curry and Zach as the twin towers of offense, that he refuses to see the obvious…his theory doesn’t hold water.

    Let’s see how long IT sticks with Lee for 30+. Let’s see how quickly he goes back to the twin towers as his primary rotation if Lee has even one bad game.

  25. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Cotton, Curry and Randolph are not the “Twin Towers”, they’re the “Twinkie Towers”.

    Love,

    Puntastic Animal

    PS – Or, if you prefer, “The E-Z Bake Oven”

  26. Roshi

    I was reading TrueHoop’s link to a compiled list of Isiah quotes and came upon:

    ?To me, it?s win or die. And I literally mean death. I don?t mean walk away. I mean death. That?s how I approach it. And we got a job to do here, we?re going to get it done. I?m confident we got the right players, I?m confident we got the right people, and we?ll dig our way out of this.”

    Doesn’t this sound like it could have come word for word out of President Bush’s mouth, referring to the Iraq debacle. The similarities between Isiah and Bush are startling.

  27. Z

    “The similarities between Isiah and Bush are startling.”

    Except Bush has a 30% approval rating…

    That’s 30% better than Isiah has.

  28. Brian Cronin

    Let?s see how quickly he goes back to the twin towers as his primary rotation if Lee has even one bad game.

    Honestly, and this is why last night, when Dan asked “What can we take from this game?,” I did not think we could take much YET – I think Lee might get buried again as soon as FRIDAY.

    Remember, Lee only came into the game not because Isiah wanted to “make a statement.” It was because Curry had two fouls in two minutes. And THEN Lee went nuts and Isiah intentionally kept him in for basically the rest of the first half.

    But then Isiah went with Curry and Randolph for most of the third period, and the Knicks did pretty well with the two of them in the game together in the third, so I think we might see the normal rotation back FRIDAY.

    I hope I’m wrong.

  29. brian quinnett's left nipple

    not to rain on anyone’s parade, but don’t you think that isiah was showcasing lee to the rest of the league last night?

    after all, this is isiah.

  30. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I too fear a panic/stupid trade from Zeke. If it’s Lee, that’s it, after 27 years of fandom (and I’m still upset about the Bob McAdoo trade in ’78), I’m packing up shop, selling my Ken “The Animal” Bannister authentic game worn jersey on Ebay, catching the Suns when they’re on TNT/ESPN and that’s it…

    Goodbye cruel world!

  31. Mr. Black

    I dont think Isiah was showcasing Lee.

    Name three good PLAYERS that Isiah traded from the Knicks. Potential draft picks are not players, they are an unknown asset.

    Sure he signs poor free agents, and bring garbage in for garbage out. But, he does not trade away good players.

  32. Count Zero

    Agree 100% Brian Cronin. Nothing makes my blood boil like when a coach ignores objective, statistically-based evaluation in favor of his own pet favorites. Right now, any independent mind says, “Lee has earned his 30 minutes until such time as he or Curry prove otherwise through actual game performance.”

    At the very least, Lee deserves a shot solely on the basis that Curry + Zach isn’t working for shit, and Lee is out-hustling/out-desiring both of them combined.

    brian quinnett’s left nipple may be totally right though. (And that’s definitely the weirdest sentence I’ve written this year.)

  33. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Here’s a random question:

    Why isn’t David Lee a better shotblocker?

    He’s clearly a quick, explosive leaper/long wingspan (as is evidenced when he’s rebounding). He has a solid feel for the game/nose for the ball (again, see rebounding). So why doesn’t that translate into blocks? Any explanations/thoughts?

  34. Z

    “not to rain on anyone?s parade, but don?t you think that isiah was showcasing lee to the rest of the league last night?”

    No.

    Lee is in his third year. He was among the league leaders in FG% and rebounds last year. There are no scouts or GMS that work in the NBA that don’t know who Lee is and what he does on the basketball court.

    If Isiah was playing people solely to showcase trading chips, Wilson Chandler, and especially Randolph Morris, would be eating into Lee’s playing time. Morris is nothing but a trade asset since his tenure with the Knicks ends this summer when he refuses to resign with a team that has only played him 5 minutes thus far. Chandler’s contract became tradeable this week.

    Its easy to be cynical with Isiah, but Lee played 38 minutes because Curry had foul trouble and Lee brought his A game.

  35. Z

    “So why doesn?t that translate into blocks? Any explanations/thoughts?”

    He’s also ambidextrous, which most great shot blockers are, so it’s a good question, Animal.

    Shot blockers do compromise their rebounding position when they attempt a block, so maybe Lee holds his defensive positioning so he is better set to clean up the miss (should there be one…)

    An equally valid question is why isn’t he the leader of the free world, and when will theologians catch on that he is the second coming of Christ?

  36. DS

    How about something less racist like:
    “Brocco” Lee; he may not be Isiah’s favorite but he should know he’s good for him.

  37. Mr. Black

    “Less” racist? So, how much racism is just enough?

    It’s the holidays and I never know how much to give before I’ve gone to far.

  38. padre

    “Good Things” is the best nickname for Lee.

    By the way, I like this comment about Balkman/Lee from a new blog I stumbed across:

    http://disciples-ken.blogspot.com/2007/12/sizzling-excitement-of-reasoned-modest.html

    “Needs to play more minutes. He needs to play 35 of them per game, the most on the team. Either Lee or Balkman should be on the floor at all times because nobody else is getting those rebounds and loose balls. He is not a perfect player, but he is the Knicks second best player behind Zach Randolph. He does not shoot well out of the high post, but he can pass it well, which fosters good ball movement, and he?ll occasionally go around somebody. He is not a good defender, but his constant activity and rebounding mitigate some of his man-on-man defensive failings.”

  39. Mr. Black

    “Why isn?t David Lee a better shotblocker?”

    Like Wesley Snipes said in dat movie homey, “White men can’t jump.” B-LEE-ve dat yo.

    And don’t be even bringing up dat Brent Barry slam dunk junk. Because my man told me that da NBA lowered the rims that year just to give Brent Barry a chance.

    ;-)

  40. xduckshoex

    Blocking shots is about timing as much as it is about athleticism. Oliver Miller could barely jump but he was a decent shotblocker, so was Jahidi White. Lee just doesn’t have that natural timing.

  41. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    “Like Wesley Snipes said in dat movie homey, ?White men can?t jump.? B-LEE-ve dat yo.”

    But David Lee can jump! Oh well, I guess, as I always suspected, David Lee is Chinese…

  42. Mr. Black

    Oliver Miller and Jahidi White only blocked shots because someone told them that the basketballs were stuffed with frosting.

  43. Michael Zannettis

    By the way, I just checked and I don’t know why I never noticed this before, but Eddy Curry blocks more shots per minute than General Lee. That has to be a counting error.

    Isn’t it about time we name a chicken variety after General Lee? I vote on something high in nutrients, but low in fat.

    A style you only serve a little bit at a time.

  44. frank

    Frank o. Lee played great last night but your reasoning regarding his game stats when playing over 30 min is flawed. Naturally when you play well you will get more minutes and when you play poorly you get less. It’s like the stat that announcers always bring up… When Kobe scores 80 the lakers win 75% ofthe time. Or when the team’s starting pitcher pitches a complete game the team wins 80%of the time. It’s an obvious stat that doesn’t mean anything, a stat that basicaly proves itself . that being said there are many knicks whose production have no relation to their minutes. lee should get 25+ min per game regardless of his numbers inthe first few minutes he plays.

  45. Yongjun

    I don’t know if Isiah Thomas is really the cause for all this uprising or the players.
    I just hope that this comment will be seen by Isiah Thomas,i will like to play under you even is a short season.I can promise you that if you ever gave me a chance,i will play to my best to help you win games.
    recently i heard the uprising,i check on your profile Isiah Thomas,if you can coach well with good result in Pacers,i bet you have some skills.
    I really hope you will gave me and you a chance.
    My mail is yongjun_90@hotmail.com.

  46. Ben R

    I might be the only one but I very strongly feel that Zach should be the one sitting not Curry. We all agree that Lee should be starting and getting the most minutes I think that is clear but I think that Zach should be the one to sit not Curry.

    As for last night’s game I thought Curry actually played really well in the second half. He had 10 points 5 rebounds and 2 assists in 17 minutes and that is quite good. He was also hustling more on D. One thing I noticed was Curry was passing the ball alot quicker. If he did not have a good shot he just waited for the double team and then passed out. It led to two assists and two more open threes on the perimeter when the man he passed to rotated it. I hope maybe Isiah lit a fire under him and this will become a normal thing. If he keeps playing like he did last night I am happy.

    As for Randolph his shot selection is not really improving he is just hitting them right now. The offense still grinds to a halt every time he touches the ball. Also his newfound propensity for the three pointer (10 attempts in the last 4 games) makes me worry. He is attacking the basket a little more and passing a bit better but he still forces things way too much. Also I cannot forgive his lack of consistant effort on Defense. Curry might be bad, but his problems are due to lack of recognition and reaction time, not lack of effort. I can tolerate a lack of skill with good effort, but I cannot tolerate a lack of effort.

    As for the rest of the team, when Q is shooting well we are alot more dangerous on offense because there is no one to double off of. Also Crawford seems to play alot better without Marbury. In 5 out of the 7 games Crawford has played without Marbury he has shot a TS% over 59%. It’s too bad Marbury will return and Q will get cold again and we will get the Crawford and Q we are all used too.

    I also like Nate and Jones both getting minutes because they both provide energy and with Jones pushing him for minutes I think Nate focuses on defense more. I also thought Jeffries looked good in the minutes he got. I still much prefer Balkman but I do not mind Jeffries. As for Rose, I hope Isiah was just showcasing him because he should never play. Both Jeffries and Balkman are better options as our fourth bigman.

    If Lee keeps leading the team in minutes, Zach comes off the bench, Marbury does not play (or Crawford learns to play well with him) and Q keeps hitting shots we could return to being the great offensive team we were last year. None of these things are going to happen but I am a Knicks fan so I must remain hopeful so my heart gets crushed regularly.

  47. Knicks Protest

    KNICKS PROTEST ANNOUNCEMENT

    FIRE ISIAH! KNICKS PROTEST & WALKOUT GETS STRONGER!

    It is a pleasure to announce that admired and highly influential Norman Siegel, New York City?s most successful Civil Rights Attorney has endorsed his support to the FIRE ISIAH! KNICKS PROTEST & WALKOUT on 12/30/2007 at 11:00 AM in front of MSG.

    Mr. Siegel was the Director of the New York Civil Rights Union until he decided to run for public office. He currently has his own private practice in NYC. He has written numerous op-ed columns for newspapers such as The Times, Newsday, and The Daily News as well as the Amsterdam News. He is also a Teacher and a Board Member of many foundations.

    He was a member of the PINK SLIP RALLY on Weds. 12/19/2007. Mr. Siegel has been a fan for over 40 years and played basketball back in High School. His personal motivation is to get inserted into the Knicks line-up to help the team overall with point guard duties.

    Any and all Knick fans who ever complained about this organization, it?s leadership or team need to show their support towards this cause.

    Don?t let the nay Sayers be right when they say, ?Knick Fans will never come together and voice their opinions. They don?t care that much about their team? I say ?They are ALL wrong!

    Show your support. Step Up, Be Heard!

  48. jon abbey

    he looked really sullen whenever they showed him on the bench against the Cavs. it must be hard to motivate to cheer for two hours for the team that’s paying you around a quarter of a million dollars per game. good riddance, hopefully it’s team-initiated and not Steph-initiated.

  49. Ben R

    jon – while I do not really want him on the Knicks because he is a distraction and not a terribly good player anymore, his sullen attitude is pretty justified. His father died two weeks ago and the day before the Cavs game was his father’s birthday.

    I feel for him it is tough to lose a parent especially the way he lost his dad. For all his faults I think Marbury is a good person, he has done more good in the last year off the court than most athletes. I have no direspect for the man, I just do not think he makes us a better team and in the name of basketball we should move on.

    I would rather him take personal time to deal with what he is going through than try to play when his heart is clearly not in it. I have called for his head this season and frankly I would be happy to see him retire or be waived but I have no ill feelings towards Marbury the man. Marbury gave it his best to make it work in NY, he just did not have the ability or mental makeup to be able to contribute and adjust as was needed.

    He has never given up on the team and has multiple times tried to adjust his game to help the Knicks. His own emotional issues often got in the way but he never sabataged the team on purpose. I hope Marbury takes as much time as he needs and then if he really wants to come back we can work him back in if there is room, if not he and the Knicks can move on.

  50. kruges

    Just saying but I reckon the nickname “DaWhite Howard” is better for David Lee
    Also he will BE the Knicks in a couple of years, without a doubt

  51. jon abbey

    I feel for his personal losses too, but this is the same selfish guy that went home from Phoenix last month at the start of a tough road trip. what I saw on that bench wasn’t someone in mourning, it was someone who came back to try to play and whose coach (rightly) didn’t put him in, so he pouted even though NY was playing great without him. that’s my take on it, anyway.

  52. Ben R

    jon – you might be right, but he looked truly sad not just his normal sullenness. If that is true though then maybe that means that Isiah is actually going away from Marbury and that would be great.

    Since Crawford seems to play much better without Marbury and Nate and Jones are both better in their roles than Marbury a guard rotation of Crawford, Jones and Nate with Q picking up spot minutes seems great to me.

    Now just start Lee and play Balkman more and we would be set.

  53. Ray

    Lee did a great job the other night. Gave a lot of effort and that certainly was seen by all. Ive been wonding why Chandler hasnt been getting minutes. He has a good jumper ,he can shoot the 3….he runs the floor and he blocks shots. Knicks need to come out with that same fire today and put together some W’s or we’ll be going into the lottery looking for Derrick Rose.

  54. Frank O.

    Frank
    what are Lee’s per 40 stats as compared to his 30 minutes+ averages?
    Are they that different?

  55. John

    Ray: Knicks need to come out with that same fire today and put together some W?s…..

    Are you nuts? I’m wondering why you want the Knicks to win in December. Take off your Knicks goggles and realize what you are wishing for.

  56. Capt. Merlin

    johnny boy, to hope for the knicks to lose would prove just as fruitless as hoping for them to win. It’s become perfectly clear that Thomas will at least the season no matter how putridly they perform; with that given, what’s the harm in a few w’s here and there?

  57. DS

    “Frank
    what are Lee?s per 40 stats as compared to his 30 minutes+ averages?
    Are they that different?”

    Per 40:

    PPG: 15.625
    RPG:11.40625

    Vs. Averages in Games in which he plays >30 mins

    Lee?s Averages in those games
    Shooting FT RPG TOPG PPG
    60.8% 83.3% 11 1.5 16.4

  58. Chase

    Regardless of the player(s) that “show up” on any given night, the fundamental problem with the Knicks is their acceptance of mediocrity. When they win a game, I’d like to see them look dissatisfied. When they win 5 (in a row), I’d like to see them dissatisfied. They’ve won in various ways when they have. Personally, I think Richardson needs to come off the bench, in favor of who, anyone else. Marbury needs to come off the bench as well. He’s good but they seem to play better when Crawford feels like he’s the leader in place of Marbury. It’s mental with Crawford – he’s so passive or frantic sometimes that when he’s not, it’s like “is this the same passive or frantic guy I saw the other night”. TONS of talent – underachiever. Anyways, that’s my rant. The Knicks need to be a bit more professionalism about their wins and build technically on them.

    As for David Lee – Z-Bo might want to sacrifice his stats (on the boards) so they can co-exist or Lee will have to prove he can score more consistently (and block some shots) in place of those boards he’s so good at getting.

  59. Ray

    Naturally I cant wish for them to lose. I dont know about some of you guys. I would like to see change but we know if it all comes down to effort and these guys dont give that then we’ll see change anyway. Dolan may be hesitant but hes not stupid…well’ perhaps he is. But any investor can not stand by and watch the value of that investment die with out acting to change. Im hoping hes a good investor. Its a shame there is not some system in place that outs owners like Dolan. The city just wants a winner thats all we ask for …the NBA wont be revitalized until the Knicks are in the mix or at least til’ Lebron James gets to Brooklyn…2010

  60. Gmal

    Some questions
    is that a designed play for Jamal after a made shot to dribble the ball up to the 3pt line and shoot?
    If Curry is going in and out of the game because he’s out of shape how can you establish team consistency on both ends?
    Who is the pt guard? Shouldn’t Jones be orchestrating the offense and not Crawford.
    Where is Morris and Wilson when your regulars are showing no life? Especially when the Cats are subtituting rooks.

  61. Mr. Black

    To all you “General” Lee lovers: Cotton does not look good tonight.

    So much for naming my soon to be born son David Lee Black.

  62. Capt. Merlin

    How long until the messiah himself, Jerome James, returns? Oh lawd have mussy, we needs our saviuh

  63. cbrooklyn

    did Q rich actually have the audacity to argue because he was taken out of the game??? what the hell…….

    this is gonna get ugly… uh i mean uglier….

  64. John

    Captain said: “to hope for the knicks to lose would prove just as fruitless as hoping for them to win. It?s become perfectly clear that Thomas will at least the season no matter how putridly they perform.”

    You make no sense.

  65. jon abbey

    I couldn’t watch more than a half of that. I like the way that Charlotte’s building their team, Gerald Wallace seems to kill us every time. also, Ryan Hollins looked great, he totally abused Lee at least once. #50 pick in 2006, add him to the list drafted after Mardy Collins, along with Daniel Gibson and Ronnie Millsap. that whole “best drafter ever” thing has taken a pretty huge hit recently.

  66. Ben Bow

    I just came on and haven’t read much of this topic, but i got an idea from someones post. the knicks should try to make themselves into a up-tempo team. we have lots of players who would work for a nellie-style offense.
    the most important thing would be making trades. i could see us trading away marbury curry and randolf for players who fit in the system. my favorite would be tradin for pau gasol and juan carlos navarro, but we’d probably have to give up some good young players. if we did it with our pieces though we COULD have a lineup somthin like
    1nate
    2navarro
    3balkman
    4lee
    5gasol

    which personally is a great rotation. we would have lots of options too. move lee to center, balkman to pf and bring in Q-Rich to have more shooters. theres lots of options. if we kept marbury he would probably do alot better in a quick game pace because of all his driving to the hoop.

    we would have better defense just because we lose our two centers who cant block a shot, and they turn the ball over all the time.

    i dono if all this would work, but i would love the knicks to go uptempo. my favorite teams are washington, golden state, and the knicks. i just love watchin them play, and i just like the knicks because.

  67. Count Zero

    I couldn’t watch any of tonight’s game, but can someone tell me: How in the name of all that is basketball did Malik Rose earn 24 minutes on the floor?!?

    NEWS FLASH: Malik Rose is NOT going to get better. There is no reason he should get playing time. Ever. He’s a mascot on the bench.

    Here’s the thing — I understand Lee had a bad game. But it’s going to happen. Lee’s future potential is about a zillion times > Malik Rose’s future potential even if he ends up being the third player off the bench at the peak of his skills. It’s not like we’re scrapping for a W any we can get it late in the playoff hunt. For the love of GOD — give the young guys 30 minutes every damn night! That’s the only way they learn anything and the only way you can objectively evaluate them.

    Develop the talent you drafted otherwise what good is your skill at spotting late draft picks? I swear, Isiah could drive me to commit murder…I don’t think I’ve ever hated anyone as much as I hate him.

  68. Oakley

    “The only way this team has a chance of winning is if Marbury plays.”

    w/Marbs – Knicks are 5-13(.278%)
    w/o Marbs – Knicks are 3-4(.429%)

    w/Marbs – Knicks averaging 92.1 ppg
    w/o Marbs – Knicks averaging 99.9 ppg

  69. Brendan

    “I couldn?t watch any of tonight?s game, but can someone tell me: How in the name of all that is basketball did Malik Rose earn 24 minutes on the floor?!?”

    My sense, which may be off, was that Zeke was disciplining his players- something along the lines of “if you quit on me, I’m benching you and playing the scrubs, because they try at least.” I don’t think it’ll work, but if that’s what he was doing I can see why at least.

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