Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, June 27, 2019

Miami Heat 106 – New York Knicks 97 – Game Recap

“And I — my head oppressed by horror — said:
“Master, what is it that I hear? Who are
those people so defeated by their pain?”
      And he to me: “This miserable way
is taken by the sorry souls of those
who lived without disgrace and without praise.
      They now commingle with the coward angels,
the company of those who were not rebels
nor faithful to their God, but stood apart.
      The heavens, that their beauty not be lessened,
have cast them out, nor will deep Hell receive them —
even the wicked cannot glory in them.” 

I just spent more than 10 minutes searching through the Internet for quotes about mediocrity, because that’s what we’re witnessing night after night, when I stumbled upon that perfect gem coming from Dante Alighieri himself (more specifically, from Inferno, Canto III). He’s talking to Virgil about the cries coming from around the City of Dis, which encompasses the circles ninth through sixth of Hell. These guys, these poor souls, are the ones who were sinners but not in a bad enough way to consent the high devils to rejoice in them, for the lower circles of Hell (where the upper echelon of devilish spawn resides) are far from there, and due to the structure of Hell itself those guys can’t ever go anywhere but there.

Why did I get entangled in the (world wide) web trying to find a scathing quote about mediocrity, you might ask. Well, you know, after last game against Brooklyn I caught myself thinking about the fact that I might have been a bit too harsh on the coaching staff, and wondered why. The answer, my friends, is not blowing in the wind, but in the fact that it’s very, very hard to endure this endless suckitude without the comfort of knowing that someone, somewhere, knows what he’s doing. This is my – give or take – 45th recap of the season, and while I always watched all Knicks games since 2011, there’s a strange malady seeping in when you realize that you’re supposed to be able to write about basketball and there’s not really much to be said… and there are still 34 games to go. You find yourself willing to blame someone for this abominable spectacle, because if it’s true that the team as currenltly built is worse than terrible, at least a fan should be supposed to find silver linings here and there. When you see pretty much only disparaging scenarios thanks to a multitude of factors, it’s only fair to lose hope in who’s behind the wheel. Appropriately, the warning sign above the entrance to Dis goes like this: “Per me si va ne la città dolente/Per me si va ne l’etterno dolore/[…]Lasciate ogni speranza o voi ch’entrate“, which means, quite literally, “From now on you’ll only see pain, leave any hope behind”.

That’s what I advise for anybody who’s willing to endure those aforementioned 34 games left.

What’s strange is that this game was never a blowout, and we had a good chance to win it (tied at 90 with just 4 minutes to play). It’s not the outcome that was a problem here: it was the general play of the team. There were long stretches, after Frank got out with a groin strain, where it was hard to find anyone who you could root for in orange and blue. Figure this: Burke-Hardaway-Knox-Thomas-Vonleh, on a rare Vonleh off-night. Who do you root for? Who do you care for? I kid you not, Mario was the third most rootable guy for us tonight (Mitch first, your sucker of choice between Trier, Frank and Dot second – I choose Trier -, and then Mario). At the same time, it was impossible to root for them to fail any worse than they already do: they’re bad as it is, what good comes from beating a dead horse? So, yeah. Utter mediocrity.

The good:

– I was thinking that maybe… Nah, next question.

The passable:

– If not for an alarming tendency to pass the ball while already jumping in the air, Damyean Dotson (14 pts, 1 reb, 4 ast, +6 +/-) would have been in the good section and maybe the hero of the night. He was the only one that visibly didn’t give up when the Knicks went down by eleven with nine minutes to go in the fourth. His effort was goodish, as was the willingness to take (and make) a few shots in the period. He just didn’t do anything really heroic, missing three free throws in the same span and turning the ball over with just 2:20 to go and the Knicks down four, giving Wayne Ellington a free lane to the basket. From there, Miami never relinquished the lead and Ellington proceeded to hit two very difficult threes, as if he had been awoken by that mistake. I also don’t know what’s happened to the good rebounding Dotson. Last year, he gobbled 17.5% of available defensive boards. This year he’s down to 12.8%. Over the course of 36 minutes, it’s a difference of 1.3 boards. It might see negligible, but if Dot’s not a good rebounder (right now he’s in the 65th percentile of guards and wings) his contribution on the court shrinks a lot.

– I feel a bit sick, but maybe I have to insert Tim Hardaway Jr. (22 pts, 6 rebs, 5 ast, -14 +/-) here. Apart from his usual putrid plus/minus, where every starter is at fault save for the poor Frank, he at least stuffed a bit his box score and I have to commend him for the boards and assists. He also came through a bit in the fourth, when he hit the three that tied the game at 90. Other than that… I don’t exactly know what to say about him, these days every THJ game goes by in a cloud of whateverness, unless he’s really bad. A very nice idea to give 17 million dollars to a quintessential sixth man from the early aughts.

The bad:

– Ouch. If I told you that we traded right now Kevin Knox (4 pts, 2 rebs, 33.3% FG, -15 +/-) for a couple of second rounders, would you really be that upset? I mean, I would surely be because it’s crazy to sell so low on half a season from your lottery pick, but his production has nosedived in January, Sixers game notwithstanding. For this month, he’s averaging 12/4/0.8 on 36/28/77 splits, 0.5 AST/TO ratio, 46% TS, 87 ORtg and 117 DRtg. That’s simply a woeful player. There’s something really off with him in the last weeks. Maybe he could use a bit of rest.

Fun-sized bits:

– I love the fact that we’re starting Lance Thomas. It’s like we’re going to war with a water gun but, just to be sure not to harm anyone in any way, we never fill the reservoir.

– Some nights, not even Vonleh gives a damn about playing. These was one of them. Hassan Whiteside is not an easy customer, but Vonleh was routinely overpowered and left looking like a small child. Also, while he has showed that he can hit the three here and there, I’m not that fine with him beginning almost every game taking at least two threes in the first four minutes. He’s open, it’s ok that he shoots. But when he doesn’t hit at least one his game spirals out of control, and I don’t like that.

– 24 minutes for Mitch, and he kinda delivered. Six points, seven boards, a lone assist, three steals, two blocks. If only we had someone who knows how to pass the damn ball. Fun fact: Mitch has a higher AST% than Knox.

– Trier got another double-digit scoring game, but was again subdued. His defense is suspect, but I like the fact that he seems to have developed a bit of chemistry with Mitch. He’s also horrible at playing point guard, but we already knew that.

– Burke played again and scored again, but 16 points on 16 shots are not a good thing. When I look at our PG rotation I feel like when I was 18 and opened a Magic: The Gathering pack only to find just lousy cards that I felt compelled to add to my deck to justify my purchase. Those cards were usually the ones who drove me to embarrassing losses.

– Frank can’t catch a break. For the second time in a row he was playing quite an average game, and could just play 16 minutes. This time it was an injury who robbed us of the chance to see what he can do as a starting PG. 6 points, 2 boards, 4 assists and a steal in 16 minutes aren’t that bad, as his positive plus/minus seems to indicate.

– Mario was energetic and gave us a few highlights for the night (most notably being on the passing and receiving end of two separate alley-oops). I feel like he’d be perfect in the All-Star Game, since he plays with passion only when everyone else is paying pretty much zero attention to what’s at stake in a game.

– Since I am clearly a masochist, I also watched the last quarter of Bulls-Cavs. When I saw the lineups chosen to finish the game by both coaches, I thanked whoever is governing our fate for having at least Trier and Robinson. The Cavs were trotting out Dellavedova-Burks-Hood-Osman-Zizic. The Bulls: Dunn-LaVine-Selden-Markkanen-Lopez. Us: Trier-THJ-Dotson-Mario-Mitch. Advantage: Knicks.

See you on Wednesday to rehash our Willy Hernangomez takes!

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102 comments on “Miami Heat 106 – New York Knicks 97 – Game Recap

  1. Farfa Post author

    It’s extremely remote no matter what, but whether you agree or not, there is a 0% chance Davis would come to NY if KP is going out as part of the deal. It would probably have to include this year’s 1st rounder, Knox, and salary (maybe even Robinson).

    I mean, if they want we can safely offer them THJ, Trier, Robinson, Knox, Frank, Dotson and this year first rounder (a whopping 14% chance to draft Zion) for Davis. I would be extremely sad to see Mitch go, but for Davis? Are you kidding me? If anything I’m worried about the fact that I wouldn’t trust Perry and Mills to build anything good around AD, KP (if healthy) and a third big piece.

    Edit: of course I’d prefer to send them KP, Lee and the 1st rounder.

  2. Farfa Post author

    Anthony Davis ain’t coming here. Let’s move on.

    Oh, I agree. It’s the same old story where someone uses NYC pedigree (?) to raise other offers.

  3. DRed

    AD isn’t asking to be traded to a team with 10 wins, don’t be absurd.

    Burke played 23 minutes, didn’t score efficiently, and had 2 assists, 2 turnovers, and 1 rebound. I guess he’s our only point guard now?

  4. Owen

    I feel like he’d be perfect in the All-Star Game, since he plays with passion only when everyone else is paying pretty much zero attention to what’s at stake in a game.

    Good cap Farfa. I chuckled. It’s been 20 years of purgatory but we keep going.

    AD would be a nice reward for our devotion but he definitely is not coming here.

  5. Owen

    I feel like Embiid, AD, and Jimmy Butler would be a slightly dangerous concoction.

    AD is so good and versatile though that it probably would work fine.

    But does it become the TJ McConnell show in Philly? Or just no PG and you throw Redick and Butler out there.

  6. d-mar

    If I’m the Pels, I don’t do any deal that doesn’t get me back a lottery pick. Once AD goes, they’re back to total rebuild, and Brandon Ingram and Lonzo Ball aren’t gonna get too many Pels fans excited.

    And to do this they probably would have to get a 3rd team involved.

  7. Owen

    I also agree with an earlier comment someone made. If I were the Pelicans I’d definitely want to wait and see who got the #1 pick. I’d rather have Zion than Simmons.

  8. Brian Cronin

    This is why I’m confused at the largely owner-fueled outrage about “pre-agency.” Do these guys really not understand the massive favor being done? If New Orleans had it their way, would they really let a generational talent walk for nothing?

    It’s just owners outraged that players aren’t cool with being blindly loyal to the team that drafted them. “But…but…we won the rights to you in a lottery! How dare you not be honored by that!”

  9. DRed

    AD is less valuable this offseason, though. It’s a tough call. If you trade for Davis now and you have a good team, you have at least two shots at going to the finals, even if he doesn’t resign with you.

  10. Bruno Almeida

    The Bucks could also build a package if New Orleans wants to tank, they could do something like the Middleton expiring, George Hill, Brogdon plus multiple future firsts for AD and Solomon Hill’s contract. That would be very interesting as AD plus Giannis is probably enough to win the east, but the package makes little sense for the Pelicans unless they want to straight up tank, as Middleton, Bledsoe and Brogdon are all expiring next summer.

    I think the Lakers will make a crazy offer of all their prospects plus multiple firsts and the Pelicans are likely to take it. They can’t risk waiting until the summer and seeing the Celtics offer a better package.

  11. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    . It’s like we’re going to war with a water gun but, just to be sure not to harm anyone in any way, we never fill the reservoir.

    A wonderful and apt description.

  12. bobneptune

    Fortune favors the bold…. the Celts would die for AD but the Rose rule prohibits that now with Kyrie on the roster…I know a team who could use a PG and the Celts made it to game 7 of the conference finals last year without Kyrie AND Gordon H.

    If you were the Celts… wouldn’t you swap KI for AD without batting an eyelash?
    Add the knick’s 2020 lotto pick to the PELS….

    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yb9zdtmr

  13. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    Not sure why you need KP if you have AD.

    Because whether anyone agrees or not, the players consider KP a star two way player on the upswing and want to play with him. No one that wants to win now/soon is going to agree to come to NY and re-sign to play with Knox, Frank, Robinson, Dotson, Vonleh, and whoever we draft next. Even if you like some of those guys long term (I do), they are a long way away. To bring and keep a star player here right now you need KP.

  14. Brian Cronin

    Because whether anyone agrees or not, the players consider KP a star two way player on the upswing and want to play with him. No one that wants to win now/soon is going to agree to come to NY and re-sign to play with Knox, Frank, Robinson, Dotson, Vonleh, and whoever we draft next. Even if you like some of those guys long term (I do), they are a long way away. To bring and keep a star player here right now you need KP.

    Not if AD thinks coming here now would make it so that Kawhi or KD signs here this offseason. You would have to imagine he is confident that one of those dudes would want to come play with him in New York next season.

  15. DS

    I think that New Orleans would be smart to wait so that Boston can enter the bidding and to wait to see which team gets which lotto picks.

    Why trade for the Knicks’ pick which has a small chance of being #1 when you can just wait to see who wins?

  16. Brian Cronin

    A source with intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the NBA told Get More Sports that Davis is considering five teams in the near and distant future: The Boston Celtics, Los Angeles Lakers, New Orleans Pelicans, New York Knicks and Philadelphia 76ers.

    Since he just asked the Pelicans to trade him, it doesn’t seem like that’s the most accurate list.

  17. Frank O.

    This made me laugh out loud:

    – I love the fact that we’re starting Lance Thomas. It’s like we’re going to war with a water gun but, just to be sure not to harm anyone in any way, we never fill the reservoir.

    I cancelled my NBA League Pass.
    I ‘m out for the second half. Not worth spending money on the futility.
    Last year I stuck with it and regretted it.
    The problem with the Knicks now is every…single…NBA…team…that…faces…the…Knicks…has…such…overwhelming…confidence…they…simply…know…they…will…win

  18. DS

    Why not Houston? They were reportedly crazy enough to offer four first-rounders for Jimmy Butler. Four picks plus Capela would be a really good get for Pelicans, IMHO.

    Rockets could make a run at the W’s with a lineup of CP3-Harden-Gordon-Tucker-AD (bench of Rivers, Manimal, and Nene).

  19. Zanzibar

    Since he just asked the Pelicans to trade him, it doesn’t seem like that’s the most accurate list.

    Yes I mentioned in the other thread Sheridan had tweeted this a while ago (October 8th). I mean if Davis had some interest in playing in NYC 3 months ago then you would think nothing’s changed in that regard. Kyrie and Butler, after all, both had Knicks on their list as a team to which they would accept a trade so it’s not without recent precedent that Davis could be a possibility if that report’s accurate.

  20. Hubert

    Fortune favors the bold

    I like where you’re head is at you just proposed trading Porzingis and our 2020 pick for a guy we can sign this summer as a free agent. Granted you dumped Tim and Lee, which is nice, but if we actually did that trade this blog would erupt in rage.

  21. Bruno Almeida

    Rich Paul apparently told Broussard he didn’t give the Pelicans any list, so that’s very likely just random speculation.

    We all mostly thought there was no way Paul George was re-signing in Oklahoma City too, so I think it’s way too early to discredit teams like the Sixers, Bucks or Raptors in this sense. Whoever trades for Davis would have 1 and a half season to show him something, and that can make a difference.

    The Pelicans can theoretically also send him anywhere they want, it’s just a matter of where the best offer comes from. For all we know teams likes the Mavericks, Clippers, Blazers, Nets etc could all be fielding good offers too.

  22. thenamestsam

    It seems like the biggest questions right now are:
    1. Is there any possibility that Boston is willing to deal Kyrie to get into the Davis sweepstakes now or do you have to wait until the summer if you want them as a potential trade partner? If the latter then that’s a strong point in favor of waiting because obviously they have a ton to offer and are by all accounts very interested.
    2. Are there teams who would be longshots to resign him but are interested in rolling the dice for a couple years anyway? Milwaukee, Portland, teams like that. His value to them goes down a lot if we’re talking about a single post-season run as opposed to two. So that’s a factor pushing you to at least hear out best offers now.

    Tricky situation. If Boston decides they’re on the “keep Kyrie” track they also have a very strong incentive to at least represent that they’ll be willing to dramatically best any offer for Davis to try to prevent him from getting dealt now.

  23. Bruno Almeida

    Oh, I forgot Lillard was the designated player for the Blazers, so they’re out. Also out are the Thunder, Rockets, Sixers, Wolves and Wizards because of George / Westbrook, Harden, Embiid, Towns and Wall, if I’m correct.

  24. thenamestsam

    Bruno –
    I don’t think that’s right. The rule in question is that you can only have two guys on the so-called “Rose rule” extensions, and only one of those can be acquired via trade. I don’t think that’s relevant to most (any?) of the teams you listed. I’ve been known to be confused by the CBA before though so I may be wrong?

  25. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    Not if AD thinks coming here now would make it so that Kawhi or KD signs here this offseason. You would have to imagine he is confident that one of those dudes would want to come play with him in New York next season.

    AD plus either of those guys would be a much better twosome, but now we are at second level of speculation. AD coming to play for a team as bad as the Knicks with KP is borderline ridiculous, but to assume we can trade KP and also somehow arrange for Khawi or Durant to come with him AD to what would essentially still be a bad team with 2 superstars that’s still a few years away, well, we both know it’s not happening.

    The reality is that this double dip tank job that’s so popular with some people has essentially taken us out of the star free agent or trade chase. We are very bad and a lot of years away. No one really good in their right mind is coming here. Management will learn the same lesson again.

  26. Bruno Almeida

    @31

    Oh you’re completely right. Boston is unable to trade for Davis because they traded for Irving, and they can only have one designated guy that came via trade.

    So yeah, ignore me, I misread it, it only really matters for Boston (and I think maybe the Pistons, didn’t they trade for Griffin’s contract while it was a Rose rule contract?)

  27. Frank

    The only issue with the Pels waiting until the offseason for the bidding to start is that AD does have an injury history. If he gets injured, then they are f*cked. I guess they could just force him to sit out the rest of the year?

    I would try to keep Porzingis, but literally every asset the Knicks have should be on the table. AD is one of the few guys for whom you empty the cupboard.

    Also if we are talking about this happening before the trade deadline, I sort of doubt the Pelicans would take KP as the headliner without actually seeing him play.

    Wonder whether the Pels would be interested in Knox, Mitchell Robinson, expiring salary filler (say Hezonja+Kanter), unprotected #1 2019 pick, both Charlotte 2nd rounders in exchange for Davis + taking Etwaun Moore’s bad $.

    It’s not that bad an offer — Knox and Robinson are high level prospects under team control for many years, the unprotected #1 is huge, and the Charlotte 2nd’s are likely to be high 2nd round picks. Even though LA’s prospects are better this moment, they are under team control for meaningfully less time, and no picks that LA can give are likely to be any good with Lebron on the team. They’d have the Knicks pick which even with AD will probably be top 4 in the ping-pong ball race, and their own pick which will be much better with Kanter taking AD’s minutes).

    Re: Boston – I sort of think they will need to keep their powder dry until the offseason unless they really plan on punting this season. Their team construction is not in a place where they can just give up Kyrie and trust Terry Rozier to run the point. Clearly Boston can put up the best offer with all the picks and young players they have.

  28. Hubert

    The media should really pump the breaks on the whole “Boston has so much to offer” bullshit. Jaylen Brown and four picks between 10 and 30 in a bad draft is not exactly a treasure trove.

    They have Tatum, and if I’m New Orleans I would build a trade around him over anything the Lakers have. But the Celtics seem like they don’t want to trade him.

  29. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    I don’t know the exact trade rules, but even if Boston is willing to trade Kyrie and can according to the rules, that’s probably a non starter for the Pelicans. Kyrie is not gong to stay in New Orleans for a rebuild. New Orleans is going to want good draft picks and young players that are just coming up. They figure out the salaries another way.

  30. Hubert

    I think the idea, Strat, is that Boston would trade Kyrie somewhere else as part of a three team deal to acquire more assets that New Orleans wants.

    By the way, just the mere speculation that Ainge might do this should be enough to ensure that Kyrie is not automatically going to fulfill his meaningless promise to re-sign. That dude’s going to be in play this summer.

  31. d-mar

    The media should really pump the breaks on the whole “Boston has so much to offer” bullshit. Jaylen Brown and four picks between 10 and 30 in a bad draft is not exactly a treasure trove.

    Sacramento being decent this year really changed things for Boston. They were expecting the Kings pick to be a lottery pick and a big trade chip, and now it may be 10-15. And yes, Jaylen Brown is really not that good (nor is Terry Rozier)

  32. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    @38

    I also think Kyrie is still “in play” this summer. Kyrie is an incredible offensive talent. He’s the kind of guy you can sacrifice some defense for because he’s so ridiculously good on offense. But in some strange way don’t think he’s an ideal fit in Boston. They are a “ball movement” and defense team. Kyries is the kind of guy out management loves. He can handle like a freak, create his own shot at will, and score in bunches (he’s even efficient at it which they probably won’t even notice). The fact that he’s not a good defender won’t matter to them.

  33. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    This idea that Boston has this war chest of great assets is really all nonsense when you dive into it. Their best asset is the Memphis pick this year, and that’s not even all that attractive as this is shaping up to be a 3 player draft (4 depending on how Sekou Doumbouya materializes). The Celtics will not be offering Jayson Tatum, and Jaylen Brown, who sucks, is a year away from a bigger contract than he deserves. How much better than what everyone else is offering would Jaylen Brown, the Memphis pick, the Sacramento pick, and Gordon Hayward’s right leg be?

  34. chrisk06811

    do you think Melo had to pay for his seat last night? I suspect that JR did (although in the upper deck, and then he snuck past the guard by untying his shoe laces)

  35. Owen

    PT that link didn’t load for me.

    I feel like there will be a lot of gyrations but the Lakers offer seems pretty straightforwardly the easiest one to get over the line.

  36. ess-dog

    Ha holy heck. This plan totally makes sense for this franchise. But wouldn’t at least Lee have to be involved in any trade in order to have room for a 2nd star? Or maybe they have a separate trade for Lee or Hardaway lined up in case this happens. But also, if I’m NO, I would want at least a guaranteed top-3 pick coming back, so I don’t know how this trade happens before the draft.

  37. thenamestsam

    Tatum is a nice young player but he’s untouchable in a trade for Davis? Obviously Boston is going to start with that stance but when push comes to shove I think he’s on the table.

  38. Jack Bauer

    AD will be traded to the Lakers or end up signing there as a free agent – it is preordained.

    KD is not signing on to play with this dumpster fire of a roster in New York.

    Our only hope out of this miserable situation is to win Zion in the lottery and pray that KP comes back at or near 100%. Let’s stay focused on outcomes that are at least remotely possible.
    Dolan having an unfortunate accident would help too.

  39. Bruno Almeida

    I don’t think there’s any way Tatum is untouchable. The Celtics would have to be insane to call off a trade for Anthony Davis because of him. He’s s good young player, but his shooting has regressed to a more normal number and he has a negative BPM because of that. He’s also not a very good defender and really only creates shots for himself. It would be incredibly delusional for them to think he’s anywhere near Davis’ league as a player.

  40. mase

    Brian windhorst in espn just said ad’s list is very short for teams he wants to sign long term… Boston, Lakers and the Knicks.

  41. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    I couldn’t be more confident that Boston’s only player on the “will not trade” list is Jayson Tatum, and he’s really the only piece New Orleans should be demanding in any trade. Everything else the Celtics will offer is garbage.

  42. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    @47

    Most accurate post of the day.

    No one worth anything is coming here. The double dip tank ensured that we will be rebuilding via draft until the team is good enough to attract high level talent from outside. We should be praying for things like getting Zion in the draft, KP coming back and looking good, Frank developing a shot, Knox being less terrible on both sides of the ball, and Robinson developing better footwork, balance, and a better all around game.

  43. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    The Knicks should call today and offer the 2020 1RP, Kevin Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Tim Hardaway Jr.

  44. Hubert

    And here comes the media bullshit:

    Bobby Marks: “the team that has the most assets (Boston) cannot acquire him without trading Kyrie Irving or waiting for the point guard to opt out this offseason.”

    Tim Bontemps: “It’s hard to see a team currently topping what the Celtics can offer this offseason”

    Royce Young: “But once July 1 comes, Boston can put the most enticing package on the table.”

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25869416/anthony-davis-trades-celtics-lakers-knicks-do-now

    I hope this isn’t one of those cases where repeating the same lie over and over makes it true.

  45. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    If I were the Pelicans, I’d probably just wait. They have him under contract for next year. Why rush? Unless someone made me an offer I could not refuse, screw it.

  46. Hubert

    Brian windhorst in espn just said ad’s list is very short for teams he wants to sign long term… Boston, Lakers and the Knicks.

    The fact that this is true (in the middle of *this* season, no less) should get everyone who’s been saying that Durant or Kyrie or anyone would NEVER EVER COME HERE to pipe down forever.

    It won’t, but it should.

  47. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    I think the best offer would have to be if Portland offered Nurkic, McCollum, and a 1st for Anthony Davis and Solomon Hill. Boston couldn’t top that.

  48. Hubert

    I couldn’t be more confident that Boston’s only player on the “will not trade” list is Jayson Tatum, and he’s really the only piece New Orleans should be demanding in any trade. Everything else the Celtics will offer is garbage.

    Bill Simmons is frantically re-writing his trade value column. Tatum is now 6th, Brown 11th, and Gordon Heyward just cracked the top 20.

  49. Hubert

    If I were the Pelicans, I’d probably just wait.

    They should definitely wait. Boston may not have the best package, but they’ll have a good one. But the real reason to wait is to get Zion on the table.

  50. Bruno Almeida

    But the problem with waiting is that it furthers delay their future plans. The Pelicans currently have the 10th worst record in the NBA, and if they really tank they could easily end up lower than the Grizzlies, Magic, Wizards and Pistons, giving them a real shot at the 6th slot. They could also be thinking of moving Mirotic and Holiday, as there’s no point in keeping them for a rebuild.

    If they trade Davis now and then trade Holiday, which should be doable as he’s a pretty good player, they can start rebuilding immediately this year with a high pick in this draft. If they wait until the offseason they devalue their own pick, because Davis will keep playing and winning games here and there, all for a Boston package that outside of Tatum and the Grizzlies pick is not even that amazing.

    If someone makes a great offer now if I’m the Pels I’m 100% taking it, then looking to flip Holiday right away. What if Davis gets injured, or Boston backs down on the offer? They also have their picks in 2020 and 2021 so they have assets to build upon.

  51. thenamestsam

    Brian windhorst in espn just said ad’s list is very short for teams he wants to sign long term… Boston, Lakers and the Knicks.

    I can’t square the reports that Boston is on the shortlist of his preferred teams with his decision to start pushing for a trade now which unequivocally hurts Boston’s pursuit. And whatever you think of a hypothetical Knicks pursuit it clearly makes more sense in the summer since the extra few months are actually negative value to us and the only trades that make sense are ones where we pair him with a star FA. The only team of those 3 who really have any reason or ability to make their best offer now is the Lakers. Unless that’s his clear target destination I just don’t understand why he’d ask for the trade now (unless he’s just desperate to get out).

  52. Hubert

    True. OK, here’s a better way to phrase it: they should definitely demand a premium for doing it now instead of waiting.

    But the reason to wait is Zion, not Boston.

  53. ess-dog

    Right now, the best single asset out there is Zion, but if you can get 4 picks from Boston (plus your own, plus what you can get for Mirotic and Holiday), that would make for a pretty quick rebuild (although Demps will clearly screw the picks up.)

    In any case, I don’t think we can top Boston with one high pick in a weak draft and a broken unicorn.

  54. Frank

    I think the best offer would have to be if Portland offered Nurkic, McCollum, and a 1st for Anthony Davis and Solomon Hill. Boston couldn’t top that.

    Question really is whether Davis would re-sign there. All these suitors are going to have to have some sort of feeling as to whether he will re-sign, unless they’re willing to take a Masai-like gamble, which still may blow up in his face.

  55. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    The fact that this is true (in the middle of *this* season, no less) should get everyone who’s been saying that Durant or Kyrie or anyone would NEVER EVER COME HERE to pipe down forever.

    It won’t, but it should.

    The problem is there’s a 50% probability it’s not even true and a 49.9% probability it’s conditional on NY completing a deal for him that would not gut the team (which means it’s a “no”).

    We are the worst team in the NBA right now without KP. No star on earth is dumb enough to join this team unless he has an absolutely delusional view on KP’s value or has a very specific and almost unimaginable business interest here. Star players leave to go to better teams and improve their chances of winning a title. They don’t go to bottom of the barrel tankers. Lebron went to LA, but he had specific family and business reasons to do that and LA’s young core was playing very good ball in the 2nd half of the season late year. He was only giving up 1 year in the rebuild. Coming to NY is a multi year process to contention even with AD.

    It could have been different if a few young players broke out or we didn’t replace decent players with trash, but we double dip tanked (unintentionally).

  56. Hubert

    but if you can get 4 picks from Boston (plus your own, plus what you can get for Mirotic and Holiday), that would make for a pretty quick rebuild (although Demps will clearly screw the picks up.)

    You think 4 picks in the bottom 20 of a weak draft will accelerate a team’s rebuild?

  57. Sir Robin

    Farfa: brilliant recap as always. The Inferno reference is made all the more ironic as they were playing the Heat.

  58. thenamestsam

    But the reason to wait is Zion, not Boston.

    Other than potentially our beloved Knicks what teams that are in the lottery mix are real AD suitors? The Bulls maybe could also try to switch from rebuilding to all-in by trading #1 for AD and then signing a max FA?

  59. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    @63 Masai Ujiri was brilliant in the Leonard trade even if it turns out to be a rental. Moving DeRozan’s contract (and turning it into a top 5 player in the league) makes them a contender today with very few future commitments. If Kawhi leaves, they can rebuild the roster quickly as opposed to being bogged down by DeRozan’s money/presence on the roster. I feel the same way about getting out of CJ McCollum’s contract. If AD leaves, you can start over a year or two early when what you have now isn’t close to being a competitor.

    Portland is clearly worse than GSW, OKC, DEN, and HOU. When the Lakers get healthy, Portland won’t be able to beat them in a playoff series either. So really, you either go all in today and grab Anthony Davis or you wait for your experiment to fail and for Lillard to ask out. I think they should go for it and see how far Lillard and Davis can go together. Lillard/Davis wouldn’t be any worse than what Houston has currently, and their presence together could lead to a pact being established between the two a la Russ and PG. 1 1/2 seasons of AD and Dame is better than the next 3 of Dame and CJ.

  60. geo

    mediocre (adjective)
    me·?di·?o·?cre | ?m?-d?-??-k?r
    Definition of mediocre
    : of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance : ORDINARY, SO-SO

    The Enduring Moderation of Mediocre
    One of the things that is remarkable about mediocre is the extent to which it has retained its meaning over the course of more than four centuries of continual use. The word, when used as an adjective, has changed very little, if at all, in its meaning since it was used in a 1586 book titled The English Secretorie (our earliest known evidence): “Mediocre, a meane betwixt high and low, vehement and slender, too much and too little as we saye. . . .” The word comes to English via Middle French from the Latin word mediocris, meaning “of medium size, moderate, middling, commonplace,” and perhaps originally “halfway to the top.” The noun form of mediocre is mediocrity.

    yeah, ummmm, sorry – but – we are not mediocre…

    if you are looking for a more suitable adjective, i’d suggest:
    god-awful (adjective)
    god-aw·?ful | gäd-??-f?l
    Definition of god-awful
    : extremely unpleasant or disagreeable : ABOMINABLE

    yeah, abominable seems to capture the essence of the new york knickerbockers much much better…

  61. geo

    anthony davis was born to be a laker…

    it’s so weird that so many of today’s players keep citing the knicks as a potential landing spot…somehow we’d need to pick up two all-stars (one of them probably needing to be a point guard), keep kp (and, have him come back healthy) – just to reach the playoffs next year…

    i don’t know – if there’s any chance for a quick turnaround for the knicks we’d need to get rid of timmy and lee…which would cost us: frank, and, or knox, and a couple of seconds or a first…

  62. Bruno Almeida

    That’s the thing, there’s no realistic destination for Zion that AD would re-sign on, unless the Knicks are really an option which I highly doubt.

    Why would Phoenix, Chicago or Cleveland ever trade the 1st overall for Davis if he’s leaving the next year? The focus of the Pelicans should definitely not be Zion as those teams might make offers, but there’s no way they’ll make an offer as ridiculous as trading 4 years of Zion for 1 year of Davis and end up with a roster worse than the current Pelicans.

    It would be the most stupid trade acquiring a real superstar that we’ve seen.

  63. geo

    If someone makes a great offer now if I’m the Pels I’m 100% taking it, then looking to flip Holiday right away. What if Davis gets injured, or Boston backs down on the offer? They also have their picks in 2020 and 2021 so they have assets to build upon.

    nice counter to all the folks saying that new orleans should wait to the off season to deal davis…

    Dolan having an unfortunate accident would help too.

    the true key to all of our dreams…

  64. ClashFan

    If these reports that AD and KD are interested in coming here, why? Are they wanting that badly to buy stock in Fiz’s Magic Snake Oil Elixir?

  65. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

    @73

    Most people are really bad at decision making. NBA players are no different. That’s my hypothesis if the rumors are true and we’re on a shortlist for some reason.

  66. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    The same way Lonzo Ball and cap space got LeBron to Los Angeles is the same way Zion, KP, and cap space will lure somebody here.

  67. ptmilo

    owen the trade machine was probably just protesting my contribution to the bullshit parade. never mind.

    i’m honestly grateful to have something to think about that’s more interesting than whether dotson burke mudiay or lee would be a better emergency replacement if godforbid george hill got hurt.

    i wonder why AD decided to come public now. seems like some possibility they are all but settled on a lakers deal and NO wanted him to come public first.

  68. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    @77 he wasn’t voted an All Star starter and the Pelicans are out of the playoff hunt. He’s probably wanted out of New Orleans for some time but couldn’t go public because he’d have ideally been fighting to secure the 6th seed. Now that their season is basically over, he might as well come out with it.

  69. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    The same way Lonzo Ball and cap space got LeBron to Los Angeles is the same way Zion, KP, and cap space will lure somebody here.

    Lonzo Ball did not get Lebron to the Lakers. 3 rings, Hollywood, family, and a TEAM of young players that played well in the 2nd half of the season did. If they added 2 stars (one being Lebron) they looked 1 year away from contention. They didn’t land George, but now they have their next opportunity.

    KP and Zion (if we get him) will get people interested the following year or year after that depending on our success level next year.

    We were supposed to be like the Lakers from last year this year, but we gave away wins when O’Quinn walked, had no KP for longer than hoped, got no development from Frank, and are giving tank commanders like Knox, Mudiay, and Kanter loads of minutes. We also signed Hardaway.

  70. thenamestsam

    Haynes reports we’re “preparing to make an offer” for whatever that’s worth. Doesn’t float any particulars other than “The Knicks have valuable trade chips in Kristaps Porzingis, rookie Kevin Knox and potentially the No. 1 overall pick in 2019.” As far as mistakes go we’ve made a lot of worse ones than trading for a 25-year old top-5 player, but I still think any deal between us and the Pels makes more sense on both sides this summer than it does now.

    Also Haynes says he’s not particularly interested in going to the Celtics (makes a lot more sense given the timing of this trade request than the opposite).

  71. Frank

    FWIW I don’t think the Knicks should trade KP and the 2019 #1 pick.
    Historically teams NEVER get good value for their disgruntled star. Out of all the assets from teams with a reasonable shot at AD (not including teams like Chicago, Cleveland, PHX, etc where he would be highly unlikely to re-up with), the Knicks might honestly have two of the very best assets that could be put on the table – KP and that #1 pick. I would give one but not the other, sort of a pu pu platter of assets:

    Pick one from group A:
    KP or 2019 #1 pick

    Pick two from group B:
    Knox, Frank, Mitchell Robinson

    Sprinkle in salary from group C:
    Kanter, THJ, Courtney Lee, Hezonja

    Add back in bad salary from the Pels Group D:
    ETwaun Moore, Solomon Hill

  72. Zanzibar

    Just looked at the #’s. We’d have enough cap space to offer KD a max if we’re able to dump Courtney (or include him in AD trade) and buyout Lance (or include him in AD trade) to avoid 1m next year. Here’s who would be on the roster if KP/Knox/2019 pick were enough to land AD:

    AD, KD, Mitch, Frank, Trier, Timmy, Kornet, Dotson, Room exception

  73. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    I’d trade Knox, this year’s 1st rounder, and a future 1st rounder for AD. I’m not convinced Knox is going to be very good. We have a shot at Zion, but I’d way rather have 100% of AD than 14% of Zion who may never be as good as AD anyway. There’s no way I’m including KP instead of Knox. For one, I don’t even think AD would approve that deal and promise to re-sign with NY without KP.

    If we come to the table with Davis and KP (even without much else), we’ll get the 3rd star in the off season.

  74. Bruno Almeida

    The Celtics are also overrated as potential contenders, which probably plays a factor. They’re a notch behind the Bucks and the Raptors, and while adding Davs puts them at the same level at least, if they trade too many good players for him it’s not super encouraging either. If they trade Tatum, Smart and Brown for example, the Celtics entire team would be Irving, Hayward, who’s been garbage and has a huge contract + Horford who is about to turn 33 and also overpaid.

    Is this team really a contender? Plus Kyrie can bail next season or the next one if he feels they can’t contend. At the Lakers Davis has LeBron for at least 3 more seasons and whoever they bring to be the 3rd star for presumably the same time.

  75. Frank

    @83 – agree
    No way I’d send KP + 2019 #1 unprotected. I’d consider Kp+2019 #1 protected just for #1 pick. maybe.

  76. Zanzibar

    As far as mistakes go we’ve made a lot of worse ones than trading for a 25-year old top-5 player, but I still think any deal between us and the Pels makes more sense on both sides this summer than it does now.

    KP would have to consent to a trade this summer. That’s why this might be happening now.

    @83 – agree
    No way I’d send KP + 2019 #1 unprotected. I’d consider Kp+2019 #1 protected just for #1 pick. maybe.

    You and Strat should be institutionalized at once.

  77. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    Per @ZachLowe_NBA: New Orleans made Nikola Mirotic, Julius Randle and E’Twaun Moore available for picks over the weekend.

  78. thenoblefacehumper

    I think Frank’s model in #81 is the way to go. AD is about as good of a player as you can possibly acquire, but we can’t throw away any semblance of our win curve. That model would give us at least an outside shot of putting together a good team while AD is still in his prime.

    As good as AD is, I’m still partial to holding our fire until we have a good enough core to at least make the playoffs. I can’t fathom all of Strat’s hand-wringing about how long that might take–we’ve waited, what, 19 years already? What’s ~3 more to make sure we do it the right way? If a deal is made that isn’t insane I won’t complain because AD really is that good.

  79. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    You and Strat should be institutionalized at once.

    Forget about what this forum thinks about KP for a moment.

    #1. IMO this forum is underrating KP’s value because it under-weights defense. It’s also underrating his upside on offense as he gets stronger.

    #2. Forget about what I think.

    #3. The rest of the league and all the players think KP’s a budding 2-way star they want to play with.

    If you try to do a deal with the Pelicans that includes KP, AD will reject it because he’s not going to stay in NY to play with Kevin Knox.

    If you come to the table in the off season with KP and AD, you can get just about any 3rd star you want.

    If you come to the table with AD and no KP, (which won’t be possible because AD won’t agree to stay under those conditions anyway) you are in a better position in the off season than with KP, but no lock to add a top free agent because it’s still a horrible team + AD.

  80. DRed

    As good as Davis is you put him on this Knicks team and they’d still suck. The Pelicans would be out of their minds to trade him to the Knicks unless we get the number one pick, and at that point it might be smarter for the Knicks to just draft Zion

  81. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

    As good as Davis is you put him on this Knicks team and they’d still suck. The Pelicans would be out of their minds to trade him to the Knicks unless we get the nber one pick, and at that point it might be smarter for the Knicks to just draft Zion

    Would you rather have 100% of AD or a 14% chance of landing Zion who may never even be as good as AD?

  82. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    I’m keeping KP and Zion off limits just because it makes zero sense to add AD to what we’d have after a trade. If there’s anybody ever worth trading the farm for, it’s Anthony Davis, but you’re not trading for a guy on a long term contract. We would suck next year and then he would leave for another team in 2020. We should keep our pick and KP and then go all out in a trade for Damian Lillard after the Blazers get smoked in the first round again.

  83. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

    @92

    Unless we have a guarantee of a 3rd star coming to play with AD and (presumably healthy) KP, it’s an open question whether trading Frank + Knox + Robinson + Zion + maybe an additional pick (and that’s what it will take) is worth it, since AD + KP alone still doesn’t make us contenders. It’s not just Zion vs. AD in a vacuum. I’m only pro cleaning out the cupboard if we have something close to an ironclad arrangement beforehand with a 3rd FA worth his salt. We need to stay patient. If AD really wanted to come, he could come in FA. Short of a KD or Kawhi/healthy star KP/AD trio we aren’t winning a championship before AD’s next contract. I’m not in a rush to trade for him unless he’d be both guaranteed to re-sign with us and we had someone else lined up to sign in the aftermath. That’s the only way I even think of giving up Zion or KP. Decades of not being bad enough have doomed us to the worst part of the win curve, where we don’t have the assets to trade for AD and remain a good team, but don’t have a live alternative outside of hitting the lottery with Zion.

  84. The Infamous Cdiggy

    I can get with Frank’s suggestion too with #81. Though if you put a gun to my head, I’d go with giving up Porzingis. And I really, really like Porzingis.

    We really need that #1 pick. It’ll offer the opportunity to change the franchise’s trajectory, erase the #LOLKNICKS narrative, and give us more options than anything most of us have been able to see with this team. And yes, I know there will always be the fear that the Knicks screw up a golden opportunity (see: team amnesty provision history), but I’d much rather they have said opportunity.

  85. Brian Cronin

    Here’s the Vegas odds, for whatever that’s worth…

    Boston Celtics 11/4
    Los Angeles Lakers 5/4
    New York Knicks 11/2
    New Orleans Pelicans 8/1
    Philadelphia 76ers 9/1
    Houston Rockets 14/1
    Oklahoma City Thunder 14/1
    Toronto Raptors 14/1
    Golden State Warriors 16/1
    San Antonio Spurs 16/1

  86. DRed

    If the offer is our pick now + whatever for AD you absolutely do it. I’m saying if we win the lottery I’m not sure I trade Zion for AD

  87. thenamestsam

    Brian, those are the odds for his team as of start of next year or post trade deadline this year?

    edit: never mind, looking more closely with the odds on the Pels and Celtics I assume it must be start of next year.

  88. Grocer

    I’d go as far as this year’s 1st #1 protected that turns into next years 1st unprotected, Robinson, Knox, Lee, and our 2022 first unprotected. My first offer would be next year’s first, Knox, Frank, and Lee. I don’t think trading KP is an option for this front office and it probably isn’t a good idea anyway if that’s part of why AD is considering the Knicks. I don’t think Frank has much trade value but if they want him instead of something else that’s fine. Same with anybody else. I’m much too worried about the Knicks being so far down the win curve that AD ends up bouncing after one year to be willing to give up Zion.

    I don’t actually like that deal either. It’ll all end in tears, and soon.

  89. Knick fan not in NJ who thinks our rookies will lead us to a lousy lottery pick in 2019

    No one is talking about The Clippers. They should make a play.

    I suggested the Clippers last thread. I would not count out Jerry West to do something good for them.

  90. thenamestsam

    The idea of him ending up on the Warriors is absolutely hilarious. Can you imagine? What would the outline of a deal even be? I assume Green would the star leaving but I can’t see the Pels valuing him at all so it would have to be a three team deal. And I’m not sure they could really find a third team willing to give a lot for him. And their own picks are obviously very low value. They should be more like 100/1 than 16/1. The rest of that list makes sense for the most part though.

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