Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, October 23, 2014

Mavs 127, Knicks 109

If Wednesday night’s Melo-dramatic last-second win was the euphoric party, Thursday’s Knickerblogger exchange was like the hangover: full of grumblings, confusion, and vague regret. Even after Carmelo Anthony’s first defining moment as a Knick helped deliver a gutsy win over the scrappy Grizzlies, skeptics preached patience and tempered expectations for what is – at the end of the day – still just the beginning of a lengthy evaluation process.

Let’s see what they do tomorrow night, against a certifiably elite opponent, they seemed to say.

A fair request, no doubt.

So how did they do?

For anyone who watched the Grizzlies game but couldn’t justify Thursday’s late-nighter, here’s the simplest way to describe what happened, emotionally: take the last two minutes of the Memphis game, multiply it by 24, and you get something approximating what went down at American Airlines Arena (minus a few steals)

Like the Knicks, the Mavericks were coming off a hard-fought slog the night previous – a 2 point loss to New Orleans which prompted Rick Carlisle to label his soldiers “soft”.

Wethinks they got the message.

On a night where  both teams were playing their 4th game in 5 days, the only thing “soft” was the touch of the Dallas jumpers, as the Mavs amassed a crippling TS% of 60%, including 11 of 24 from downtown. The resulting 127-109 thrashing brought the Knicks overall record to 34-30 – and 0-3 in the Melo Era against teams whose names end in “a-v-s”.

While the no doubt tired Mavericks used the juice of the home crowd to fuel their twine-tickling effort, the Bockers shot a forgettable 46% eFG%, getting routinely out-hustled for loose balls and long rebounds, and generally showing the predictable malaise of a team playing its 7th game in 10 nights.

Like last month’s equally lopsided affair, the Knicks struggled to keep the Mavs off the glass. And though the actual rebounding disparity – 45 to 37 – looks on its face like Knicks standard-issue, it seemed as if every offensive rebound came at a the most inopportune time. Shawne Marion in particular wreaked havoc in this department, reeling in 6 OREBs on a night when The Matrix seemed to tap into his 2004 Fantasy Monster form, scoring 22 points and generally bewildering the Knicks front line all night long.

For the sixth consecutive game, Toney Douglas started in place of Chauncey Billups, who continues to recover from Dwight Howard’s kneecap shrapnel. Fresh off an efficient (minus the shaky last couple minutes) 18 points and 10 assists the night before, Douglas played admirably opposite the confounding Cerberus of Jason Kidd and J.J. Barea, netting 18 and 8 with a 58% TS%, while committing no turnovers.

During Billips’ absence, TD has averaged 16.5 points and 7 assists with an EFG% of 66%. And though he’s provided his fair share of TDDWTDDs, Douglas seems to have put the woes of midseason squarely in the rear view mirror — at least for now.

Landry Fields continued his recent stellar play, banking 19 with 6 rebounds, 4 steals, and a certifiably Landrarian 82% TS%. Like Douglas, Fields’ last 5 games have been marked by a quietly impressive efficiency, and have seen the precocious neophyte rack up averages of 14.6 points, 5.2 rebounds and a rotund 75% TS%.

Amare Stoudemire had a hologram game (shiny, sparkly, not much there) that was as labored as it was inefficient, scoring 36 on 27 shots with a team low -23 for the night. Stat also managed to pick up his 16th technical foul of the season, which, if it’s not rescinded, means the Knicks will be sans his services for Sunday’s showdown with the Pacers.

Carmelo Anthony, meanwhile, didn’t provide much in the way of an encore to Wednesday’s stellar play, scoring 18 on 15 shots (although he did chip in 10 rebounds and 5 assists), as the omnipresent Marion succeeded in keeping Melo at bay for most of the game.

Down by as many as 26 in the second half, the Knicks staged a heart-felt comeback towards the end of the third, cutting the deficit to 11 early in the fourth. But the Mavs kept them at bay down the stretch, sending the Knicks home with a 1-1 split on their mini road trip.

The truly brutal March schedule in full swing, the Knicks might need to siphon the lingering energy from Saturday’s Big East finale before the Garden half of their home-and-home with the Pacers on Sunday. But with 3 sets of back-to-backs remaining before the month’s end, even these two much-needed days’ rest will probably seem like far too few for this understandably weary bunch.

67 comments on “Mavs 127, Knicks 109

  1. daJudge

    Really good article Jim. Well done. I for one think that despite TDDWTDD’s great playing, we really miss a point guard. I do not consider him a point guard, so I have thought about Chauncey a bit. What is really ironic and frustrating is that Amare is facing a suspension for sticking out his tongue (I know the recent T was rescinded), but DW is not being scrutinized for intentionally sticking out his knee and putting out a player. IMO, this is the elevating form over substance, big time. Sometimes I hate this league. If you buy my premise, should the Knick’s retaliate? I know some old school players would not stand for this crap. I’m not trying to start a war, just raising the question. The longer Chauncey is out, the more angry I get.

  2. Caleb

    Bottom line is the Knicks just didn’t bother to play D. There isn’t really much excuse for getting wiped out like that – Dallas has an older team and was also on their 4th game in 5 nights, so the youthful Knicks should have been sharper.

    But Dallas is an excellent team, and any team will have nights like that. It’s basically the same as the Cleveland game – if they play like that against a godawful team they lose a close one, try it against a good team and you get slaughtered.

    I’m not sure what to think of Dallas – on paper they look like a real contender. Superstar goto guy – check. Great interior defense – check. Strong guard play – check. Depth – check. They won @50 last year and added Tyson Chandler – before the season, I guessed that if everyone stayed healthy, they’d contend.

    And yet… they haven’t been that good. The win-loss record is great, but they’ve won a ton of close wons which speaks to luck – the point-differential isn’t that good.

    But maybe they are getting their act together, with games like last night.

  3. BigBlueAL

    Philly beat Boston tonight. They are really beginning to annoy me lol.

    Chicago did whoop Atlanta though. This really looks like it could come down to the final game and just how much the teams involved care enough about winning their games. Chicago could very easily pass Boston for the #1 seed too.

  4. flossy

    Boston really shot themselves in the foot with that Perkins trade. It’s starting to look like maybe the East is wide open.

  5. Z-man

    Caleb: Bottom line is the Knicks just didn’t bother to play D. There isn’t really much excuse for getting wiped out like that – Dallas has an older team and was also on their 4th game in 5 nights, so the youthful Knicks should have been sharper.
    But Dallas is an excellent team, and any team will have nights like that. It’s basically the same as the Cleveland game – if they play like that against a godawful team they lose a close one, try it against a good team and you get slaughtered.
    I’m not sure what to think of Dallas – on paper they look like a real contender. Superstar goto guy – check. Great interior defense – check. Strong guard play – check. Depth – check. They won @50 last year and added Tyson Chandler – before the season, I guessed that if everyone stayed healthy, they’d contend.
    And yet… they haven’t been that good. The win-loss record is great, but they’ve won a ton of close wons which speaks to luck – the point-differential isn’t that good.
    But maybe they are getting their act together, with games like last night.  

    I just don’t get that anyone would read anything into this game, other than Dallas is a much better and deeper theam than us. I also don’t get the contention that they are “lucky” because they have a great record but won a bunch of close games, isn’t that a mark of a really good team?

  6. Z-man

    Also, they were at home and we played 7 games in 10 days, the last 5 w/o our starting PG. Frankly, even if we were projected to be 62-20, that game would project as one of the 20 L’s.

  7. hoolahoop

    outoftowner: In-depth article on the new-look Nuggets in Sports Illustrated:http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1182973/1/index.htmHas some interesting quotes on the Melo chase.  

    From the article:
    To say that Karl did not like Anthony is far too first grade. Rather, he did not like what the Nuggets had become with Anthony, a symbol of much that ails the modern NBA: passive on defense and predictable on offense, with endless isolation plays for a disgruntled superstar whose teammates stand on the fringe and wonder what they could accomplish if given the chance. “Do you like watching that kind of basketball?” Karl says. “I don’t either.”

    Karl, I hear ya.

  8. Caleb

    Z-man:
    I just don’t get that anyone would read anything into this game, other than Dallas is a much better and deeper theam than us.I also don’t get the contention that they are “lucky” because they have a great record but won a bunch of close games, isn’t that a mark of a really good team?  

    Point differential is a lot more predictive than won-loss – look at teams records in close games, see which teams win a high-percentage of them, and it’s a pretty random collection.

    Aside from that I’m not reading much into that night; we played badly and lost a game. People are getting very sensitive around here!

  9. Z-man

    Sorry, Caleb, just reacting to what I thought was overemphasis on the game, and I also feel that Dallas is a legit title contending team, regardless of quibbles about won-loss vs. point differential. They are winning those close games on top of winning most other games too. This is a specific case of where point differential is misleading, i.e. Dallas seems like an outlier. Just my opinion.

    One thing is clear, though, any team that we can’t bang with (even the Cavs) is going to give us trouble. I can’t figure out why we didn’t try to get a defensive rebounding specialist, even from the D-league on the roster at the deadline.

  10. ess-dog

    Is it too soon to start talking draft? I think we have a shot at Jimmer unless he goes nuts in the tourney. Although we of course need a big, I just don’t see one for us at the 16th pick. If Kawhi Leonard falls to us, I’d say maybe, but he’s only 6’7″. We’re more likely to steal a rugged rebounder/defender in the 2nd round or if we buy a late 1st. Maybe Faried or JuJuan Johnson. Thoughts?

  11. flossy

    Z-man: One thing is clear, though, any team that we can’t bang with (even the Cavs) is going to give us trouble.I can’t figure out why we didn’t try to get a defensive rebounding specialist, even from the D-league on the roster at the deadline.  

    Oh we did… his name is Shelden Williams. I think the problem is more that he (and any other big man rebounding speciailst we could have picked up for cheap at the deadline) suck too much at everything other than rebounding to be worth putting on the floor. Unless you’re Jarred Jeffries and you can’t *even* rebound but have some magical defensive mojo that D’Antoni can’t get enough of.

  12. flossy

    ess-dog: Is it too soon to start talking draft?I think we have a shot at Jimmer unless he goes nuts in the tourney.Although we of course need a big, I just don’t see one for us at the 16th pick.If Kawhi Leonard falls to us, I’d say maybe, but he’s only 6’7?.We’re more likely to steal a rugged rebounder/defender in the 2nd round or if we buy a late 1st.Maybe Faried or JuJuan Johnson.Thoughts?  

    Pass on Jimmer. I don’t care how nice his shot it, I don’t think undersized, not-very-athletic SG who is going to get scorched on defense is that high on our list of priorities. I personally really hope that Jan Vesely is still around by our pick, but I kind of doubt it… and he’d be a bit of a project I guess.

  13. Z-man

    flossy:
    Oh we did… his name is Shelden Williams.I think the problem is more that he (and any other big man rebounding speciailst we could have picked up for cheap at the deadline) suck too much at everything other than rebounding to be worth putting on the floor.Unless you’re Jarred Jeffries and you can’t *even* rebound but have some magical defensive mojo that D’Antoni can’t get enough of.  

    I was hoping for someone in the 7 foot or the 275 pound range, but I guess those guys aren’t readily available. However, look at that big that the Cavs picked up that hurt us last game…Samardo Samuels?

  14. JK47

    The big men that might fall to us in the draft don’t excite me all that much.

    I haven’t seen Jonas Valanciunas play, but he’s just about to turn 19 and I’ve seen him compared to guys like Nenad Kristic, so color me unexcited.

    All of the other 6’10” or up players who might still be on the board are power forwards. Some of them are intriguing, like Trey Thompkins, who profiles as a classic D’Antoni stretch 4 and Markieff Morris, who has a pretty well-rounded game.

    But I’m really pulling for Kenneth Faried, who I think could just be a monster in the NBA. The obvious comparison for Faried is Dennis Rodman, and if you watch him play you can see why. Faried is a monster rebounder and a ferocious defender. Like Rodman, he’s undersized but makes up for it with a huge wing span, massive hands and a total commitment to pulling down every single rebound.

    He would be awesome on this NYK team but I’m afraid someone will snatch him up before we get a chance. He would definitely bring some of that 90’s Knicks mentality to the table, no question.

  15. hoolahoop

    One thing I took away from the game is that the Mavs are a superb team. They can score, rebound, defend the paint, move the ball well, and got a ton of depth. I don’t see any weaknesses on that team and wouldn’t be surprised if they win it all.
    It enlightened my to how far we are from the promised land.

  16. ess-dog

    Z-man:
    I was hoping for someone in the 7 foot or the 275 pound range, but I guess those guys aren’t readily available.Samuels?  

    Jerome Jordan is 7’1″ 244. We just have to put him on the Eddy Curry diet and you’ll have your man!

    I think we’ll take BPA, whoever that is. Either as trade bait or bench help. Our bench needs help at every position. We don’t really have a forward who can score off the bench (Shawne can only score from one spot on the floor) so I wouldn’t be surprised if we grabbed a forward. I think Jimmer can score at the pro level. Can he play the point though? The problem with Faried, is will D’Antoni take a guy that can’t score? And can we really have Faried and Balkman on the same team? I think they’ll look to take a scorer with the 16th pick and then buy a late pick to grab a guy like Faried or Chris Singleton. Just guessing though.

  17. latke

    ya’ll see NJ has won 4 straight? if they can win, say, 11 of their last 18 games, they have a shot at the playoffs. Indiana and Charlotte are both seemingly trying to avoid the playoffs. Milwaukee is the only team that has performed decently of late, and they have a much harder schedule (and a 4 game lead). It would be pretty hilarious for NJ to go from like 4th worst in the league up into the playoffs in a 5 week span.

  18. daJudge

    Flossy–I am going to premise this with the fact that I am a huge Jimmer fan and would love to see the Knicks sign him. I am definitely prejudiced having watched him develop close up for a long time. He can’t change his height, but I do not agree that he is not very athletic. His athletic skill set is a good fit in basketball, although perhaps not in other sports. His intelligence, character and most importantly, shot making ability are all off the charts. Seriously, think Landry Fields type of intangibles with the ability to make all sorts of shots. All right….enough from a real homer!

  19. Robert Silverman

    Count de Pennies: @17FWIW (not much, I know) the current Draft Express mock has us passing up Faried, Tompkins, and Morris to select Jimmer at 17. They predict Morris going to the Magic at 23; Faried to Chicago at 27; and Tompkins to the Spursat 30.
    http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/  

    Like Steph Curry before him, no WAY is Jimmer is available when the Knicks pick comes up. Jimmer’s going to have a big game or two in the tournament and Jimmer will go mid-lottery at the latest. Bank on it. Jimmer can shoot! (And yes, I’m going to continue to beat the Seinfeld reference to death w/Jimmer)

    It’s too bad. I was really pulling for the Knicks to select him last year before he pulled out of the draft. I’m really hoping Faried is available, but Hill over Lawson/Blair notwithstanding, I trust Donnie’s draft acumen.

  20. JK47

    There’s no way Jimmer falls all the way to us. Utah will likely pick before us and I think there’s no way they’d pass on him if he’s still on the board when they pick in the 13-15 range.

    Maybe the “new” D’Antoni who actually plays defensive-minded players would make Faried a starter. He’s small at 6’8″ but we’d be a handful with a Billups-Fields-Melo-Faried-Stoudemire lineup. We’d actually be quite a good rebounding team and Faried would help our interior D even with his short size. He plays position defense like a demon and is a good shotblocker. We’d still have trouble with teams that have elite centers, but those are in pretty short supply these days.

  21. Z-man

    I could live with a Jimmer pick, but doubt he’ll drop that far. Someone always falls for the monster shooter.

  22. daJudge

    I have a healthy bet with my downstate friends that Jimmer goes lottery. Robert, love the Seinfeld reference. My favorite all time show. Jimmer CAN shoot! Jimmer hoists them up, but Jimmer’s not a chucker like George. BYU tonight at 7:00.

  23. Robert Silverman

    Call me crazy, but I think a tiny portion of Fredette’s popularity is due to the fact that people just like saying, “Jimmer.”

    I know it’s the reason I started looking him up on draftexpress. His name’s “Jimmer?” That’s not a type-o?

  24. Robert Silverman

    JK47: There’s no way Jimmer falls all the way to us.Utah will likely pick before us and I think there’s no way they’d pass on him if he’s still on the board when they pick in the 13-15 range.  

    Since he’s from BYU and Utah has two lottery picks (their own and NJ’s), it’s almost a lock that they take Jimmer

  25. taggart4800

    Its nice that we can pick a PG now and Billups can tutor them, I beleive it takes the risk factor out of that pick. In this system you have to think that just about any PG picked can become as good as TD and thats not horrible. DraftExpress has us taking Jimmer.

    I am loving all this negative press Melo is getting! If there ever was a way to make a guy work harder and do a good job for his new team, this is it. MDA must be thanking his lucky stars, because he literally has to do zip coaching to engage Melo on D and to play as part of the offense

  26. Robert Silverman

    daJudge: Robert, his name’s really Jimmer.Kind of a cool name, no?  

    Indeed. Players with cool names usually do well

  27. jon abbey

    there’s no way Harrison Barnes will last to 12, which is where that above link has him. he looked like by far the best player in the country today, finally living up to his promise recently.

    maybe Kemba Walker can shoot 2-19 in the first round, then get a DUI, and he can fall to us? that’s what I’m hoping for.

  28. Z-man

    On another note, here’s an amusing tidbit re: Fields:

    http://www.snywhyguys.com/2011/03/fields-a-poor-mans-pippen/

    Frankly, I don’t buy the comparison. Pippin was first and foremost a freak defender and I don’t ever see Landry as that type of player. Offensively, though, Fields could turn out to be better than Pippin ever was. So, I would think there are other players to compare him to at this point if you want to go that route.

    Here’s a pretty good one:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iguodan01&y1=2006&p2=fieldla01&y2=2011

    Considering it was AI’s second year, if this is a floor for Landry, we can be pretty optimistic about his ceiling.

  29. jaylamerique

    Z-man: On another note, here’s an amusing tidbit re: Fields:http://www.snywhyguys.com/2011/03/fields-a-poor-mans-pippen/Frankly, I don’t buy the comparison.Pippin was first and foremost a freak defender and I don’t ever see Landry as that type of player.Offensively, though, Fields could turn out to be better than Pippin ever was.So, I would think there are other players to compare him to at this point if you want to go that route.Here’s a pretty good one:http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iguodan01&y1=2006&p2=fieldla01&y2=2011Considering it was AI’s second year, if this is a floor for Landry, we can be pretty optimistic about his ceiling.  

    Pippen and AI are bad comparisons, Fields is not a very good defender. he’s actually below average.

  30. flossy

    Yeah… if anything, I’ve always thought of Iguodala as a poor man’s Pippen (though statistically Scottie was the worst of all three at 22). Landry lacks the defensive ferocity and otherworldly athleticism to be lumped in with those two. And in comparison to Iggy (today), Landry’s a better shooter but he’s nowhere near the ball-handler or playmaker.

  31. latke

    massive: I like to think a good comparison for Landry Fields is Thunder Dan, but Landry is having a better rookie campaign:http://bkref.com/tiny/YsV4M  

    How dare you compare people of different races? JK, wow, Majerle couldn’t shoot for beans his first year. Not a bad comparison.

    Fields seems to be developing into a lights out 3 point shooter when he has time to spot up.

    I honestly think one of the guys Fields is most likely to develop into is on our bench right now: Kelenna Azubuike. plus skills: rebounding, efficiency, 3 point shooting. Solid everywhere else. Fields will have to get a little better at drawing fouls to reach azubuike’s level, which is something I think he’s capable of.

  32. Z-man

    massive, I think I compared him to Majerle long ago, but the numbers didn’t quite match up. Still, I agree that to the eye they are very similar, really more hybrid 2-3’s than SG’s.

    Interestingly, Thunder Dan became a very good defensive player for the Heat during the peak of the Knick rivalry years. Fields can certainly develop defensively, he has the B-ball IQ, desire, and athleticism to get better. I still hope that the Hondo Havlicek comparisons by Donnie Walsh hold true. Most of you guys are too young to remember this guy in his prime, but let me tell you, he was awesome.

  33. GHenman

    I remember Hondo as a great sixth man for the Celtics in the early ’70’s. I think the comparison is a good one. He also reminds me of Doug Collins. @37 Isn’t his mother white?

  34. daJudge

    Re Fields: As I recall, Thunder Dan was, IMO, not nearly as athletic as Fields, nor did he move as well w/o the ball. I really enjoyed Thunder Dan, great shooter, tough guy. But, I’ll take Hondo—-OMG, from my lips to God’s ears–qite awesome, Z-man is right. If Fields becomes another Hondo, which I sincerely doubt, we’re in for quite a treat. If that were the case, he would be at least as valuable as STAT and/or Melo. I do think Field’s body type and overall look, his choice of school and his cerebrum belie his athleticism for some weird reason. His basketball acumen for a rookie is undeniable. Also, Jon Abbey, HB looked very awesome today. I think I have been watching hoops for hours, days??. Time for the Big East. No Johnies–boo, boo, boo. Can’t wait till the tournament.

  35. ess-dog

    I like the Majerle comparison, except Landry is much more efficient. Dan was better passer/defender though. But they are similar in that they made the most of the athleticism they had and both could jump out of the gym. I remember seeing a few Majerle dunks that didn’t look real. As if his body had been propelled upward by some other force. I hope that Fields can keep his efficiency but work on his passing and defense to become more like Thunder Dan.

  36. massive

    Chris Paul with 31 points, 15 assists, and 5 steals in his 1st game since the concussion. Albeit it came against the Kings, but still. That’s a hell of a night.

  37. massive

    Re: Landry Fields, his development is very crucial for the future of this team. I’m really hoping he pans out into a player like Manu Ginobili (best case scenario) or Thunder Dan. By the start of the 2012-2013 season, if we had Chris Paul, Landry Fields (or Thunder Dan 2.0), Carmelo Anthony, Kenneth Faried, and Amar’e Stoudemire as our starting 5, I’ll be ecstatic. I really hope we don’t screw up this draft.

  38. Brian Cronin

    I just can’t foresee any scenario where the Knicks would get Chris Paul and keep Landry Fields. They’d either have to renounce him to sign Paul as a free agent or trade him to get Paul. How could the Knicks get Chris Paul without losing Fields?

  39. Brian Cronin

    The Bucks definitely helped the Knicks out tonight by crushing the Sixers.

    Quite a few blowouts tonight. The Bucks’ 28 point victory was only the third-largest margin of error. The Knuggets came in second with a 30 point victory over the Pistons and the Heat were tops with a 33 point destruction of the Grizzlies.

    What’s particularly remarkable about the Nuggets’ success post-Melo is that presumably the best player they got in the deal, Gallo, has only played two games and the only game he was good in was one of their only two losses since the trade! Crazy. They’re only four in the loss column behind OKC for #4 in the West (and they play OKC two more times this season). Cuh-ray-zee. Then again, they also have a bunch of tough games coming up, including Orlando/Miami on back-to-back nights.

  40. Thomas B.

    @49 Agreed. I’m not sure why the team decided not to add a center. I understand why they got JJ–okay I sort of understand. He knows the MDA system and he can play defense–okay he can sort of play defense. I still think if all you wanted was an offensively challenged, skinny, 6-11 guy to play defense why couldn’t that guy have been Randolph. Randolph is a far superior rebounder and shot blocker. Oh well that ship has sailed.

  41. bob cook

    More on the trade

    It sure seemed like we gave up a lot. If, however, some of the departing pieces can be otherwise replaced, I feel better. So let’s consider the Gallo piece which appears to have caused the most angst among the faithful. Watching the team, this year, I was disappointed with Gallo’s seeming failure to continue his development and with the rebirth of Shawne Extra E, began to wonder if he’s not a better player than Gallo. Or as good anyhow. I suggested this in a previous post and at least one Forum member questioned my sanity and I understand that. Gallo was a receptical for much hope.

    Any how, I thought I’d look at the numbers to see if they supported my observation or not. In about 50 Knick games, Gallo averaged 35 minutes and Shawne, 19. To get the math right, I adjusted Shawne’s numbers as if he also was getting 35 minutes so my stats are “x for 35 minutes”

    Shawne leads in rebounding: 6.25 to 4.8 for Gallo
    Shawne blocks shots at nearly four times Gallo’s rate: 1.47 to .44
    Turnovers and assists are about the same
    Shawne shoots better (.438 vs .414) and much better from 3 pt range: .444 vs .341
    Gallo scores more: 15.9 vs 12.3 and is a better free throw shooter: .893 v3 .813

    All in all, I like Shawne’s performance better. Part is disappointment with Gallo. He’s six-ten but can’t rebound or block shots.

    And the slot that either Gallo or Shawne will occupy with the Knicks is off the bench behind Stat.

    Lastly, I assert that Shawne’s got the better developmental upside. Gallo’s been given every chance to Shawne. Shawne is coming back from the dead. May he prosper.

  42. Z-man

    @51 I agree, Shawne made Gallo more expendable. Still think Gallo is the better player with more upside, though.

  43. flossy

    @51: Aside from being two years younger, Gallo already has by far the more well-rounded offensive game. Shawne Williams is a spot up shooter with no handle, no post game, little passing ability. He is a better rebounder and shot blocker, but hardly a defensive difference-maker, and on the balance probably no better than Gallo defensively (Gallo is a very underrated man defender IMO).

    This year we saw Gallo blossom into someone who could create offense for himself and others, and rack up points even when his shot wasn’t falling by getting to the line at a prodigious rate. Shawne Williams does a good job of parking himself in the corner and canning threes of the catch, but the comparison basically ends there.

    You can argue that bringing in Melo made Gallo more expendable, and that a Shawne Williams type is all you really need coming off the bench, but to say that Extra E is as good–or better–than Gallo is way off base. If the Nuggets would have taken Williams over Gallo I have a feeling Donnie would have driven Shawne to the airport himself.

  44. massive

    I’m actually hoping the CBA allows us to sign them both. But, if we can’t, then I don’t think we should let go of Landry. I’d rather have Landry, Melo, Stoudemire, Douglas + good role players than Chris Paul, Melo, and Stoudemire and bums. Even Miami has Mike Bibby, Mike Miller, Eric Dampier, and Udonis Haslem to put around Wade, LeBron, and Bosh. Trading for Chris Paul is out of the question now because we have no assets and will get blown away by another team’s offer (Minnesota, Houston, Portland).

    What I’m hoping for is for the max contracts (or current contracts over 16.6 million) currently on the book to only count a certain percent against the cap (like 85% or something) so Melo’s 22 million would count about 18.7 against the new cap, and Stoudemire’s contract will count less as well (I don’t remember the number off hand). Either that, or salary roll-backs at about 15% so we’ll have more room under a new, harder cap (but closer to the luxury tax level) so that we can have more room to operate.

  45. d-mar

    Will be interesting to see how everyone’s new favorite team Denver does in an upcoming 4 game road trip against NO, Atlanta, Orlando and Miami. A 7-2 record since the Melo trade is certainly impressive, but I think it’s unfair to imply that it’s a direct result of losing a selfish superstar and becoming more of a team. Just as the anti-Melo crowd thinks it’s unfair to imply that any Knicks victory since the trade would have been a loss with the old crew.

    Also, the Knicks have 18 games left, and only 7 against above .500 teams. No more excuses, they need to win the games they’re supposed to win and gain momentum for the playoffs.

  46. daJudge

    Isn’t Faried a 4? He is 6′ 8″, but stats indicate that he is a beastly rebounder. I’m not sure about the strength of Morehead’s schedule though. Any centers in Europe that are worth a look?

  47. JK47

    Faried is indeed a 4, but he’s a Dujuan Blair/Chuck Hayes type and those guys have had some success guarding opposing centers. You could use Stat at the 5 (which D’Antoni is wont to do anyway) and let Faried beast on the boards as a 4. I think it would work. Faried is definitely one of my favorite college players… He’s just a freak.

  48. massive

    Well Charles Oakley went to Virginia Union, and Dennis Rodman went to Southeastern Oklahoma State University. I’m pretty sure the competition was pretty weak there, too. I really like Faried for us here. Here, all he would need to do is focus on rebounding and defense. I’m really hoping he falls to us at 17.

  49. bob cook

    flossy: @51: Aside from being two years younger, Gallo already has by far the more well-rounded offensive game. Shawne Williams is a spot up shooter with no handle, no post game, little passing ability. He is a better rebounder and shot blocker, but hardly a defensive difference-maker, and on the balance probably no better than Gallo defensively (Gallo is a very underrated man defender IMO).This year we saw Gallo blossom into someone who could create offense for himself and others, and rack up points even when his shot wasn’t falling by getting to the line at a prodigious rate. Shawne Williams does a good job of parking himself in the corner and canning threes of the catch, but the comparison basically ends there. You can argue that bringing in Melo made Gallo more expendable, and that a Shawne Williams type is all you really need coming off the bench, but to say that Extra E is as good–or better–than Gallo is way off base. If the Nuggets would have taken Williams over Gallo I have a feeling Donnie would have driven Shawne to the airport himself.  (Quote)

    I partially agree. Especially this year, Gallo has learned to fake the 3 and lumber towards the basket. He uses his body strength rather than quickness (he’s not quick afoot) to draw fouls time after time. Using my equal minutes math, Gallo has made 274 free throws to Shawne’s 110 (more than double). This, by the way, entirely explains Gallo’s higher scoring total. (Continued in next post)

  50. bob cook

    Getting fouled while sinking 90% of your free throws also brings the benefit of, at times, getting the other team in foul trouble. So, good stuff for the Gallo argument. I do wish he could go for a 3 pt play on the drive more often. He hardly ever does that. Announcers have sometimes accused him of dramatically flopping on his drives so you can’t both flop and score.

    But it’s unfair to Shawne to say he’s just a spot up 3 point shooter. As I watched him, he was exactly that in the early part of the season but more recently as he fits better with the team and his role, he will also drive. He’s made twice as many 2’s as 3’s.

    There’s also the issue of horses for courses. What do we mostly need in a forward coming off the bench? Yes it’s REBOUNDING. Our weakness. Shawne’s superiority in that area is important.

    And to the “no post game, little passing ability”, does not that refer to both guys? They’re equal in assists.

  51. Z-man

    Also, Shawne now knows he’s an NBA rotation player and seems to take preparation more seriously. He can work on the drive during the off-season. He has also been asked to defend much bigger players pretty regularly and done as well as can be expected, somewhere between Gallo and Chandler, imo. I think he definitely has significant upside.

  52. latke

    I’d say of the two, shawne is far more lumbering than gallinari and far far far far worse at finishing near the rim.

    TS% gallinari: .599
    TS% williams: .572

    If Gallo gets his 3pt shot back to last year’s level (let alone his first year’s level), his TS% will be about .670, which he could sustain for an entire season would make him the 15th most efficient player ever, and the third most efficient season of an active player (after nene and chandler). If he sustained a number like that for his career, he would be the most efficient shooter ever to play in the NBA by a large margin.

    So gallo has serious potential to be a very special player, despite the fact that his defensive numbers aren’t great.

  53. ess-dog

    Shawne is more of a post player in my mind while Gallo is a wing. Shawe can’t guard wings the way Gallo can and really has no slashing ability at all. Nothing against Shawne, but he’s not really a starter (5th best starter at best) while Gallo should become a consistent #2 threat on a good team. I’d much rather have Gallo.
    Faried would be nice and hopefully could slide in at the 4 as a better version of Jeffries. But we still need more bench scoring IMO. Maybe this new kid Brown could become an effective 3-4 off the bench to help Shawne? Speaking of, what do you think Shawne would cost us next year? Probably for a 1 year contract? Would someone else swoop in and offer him a multi-year deal? Would he show loyalty to Donnie?

  54. bob cook

    Well, these days it’s not just about can you play, it’s what do you cost? For the first 30 games, Chandler was really lights out and yet it was always said that we can’t hold on to him because he’ll command too high a salary. Same deal with Lee last year. I wonder when this issue will descend on Gallo. I’ve been arguing that Gallo is, in effect, overrated but even if I was his greatest fan, I would have trouble paying him as a forward behind CA and Stat equivalent to what another team would justify. Guys like Shawne and Walker are more afforable until they’re not. I’m delighted we got Jeffries back. He fills a real need and brings dramatic tension to us fans when he goes in for a layup.

  55. Brian Cronin

    I suggested this in a previous post and at least one Forum member questioned my sanity and I understand that. Gallo was a receptical for much hope.

    He’s also considerably better than Shawne Williams. I mean, seriously, Shawne Williams? We all love the guy for all the effort he puts in and he’s probably a rotation player on a good team, but Shawne Williams? He’s a “hit the corner three” shooter who doesn’t kill the team when thrown against good offensive big men as a sort of sacrificial lamb.

    Gallo is a good shooter period, can actually drive to the basket (where he is adept at drawing fouls – which is good for the reasons already mentioned) and is as good as a defender as Williams (if the Knicks wanted to throw Gallo at good big men and flail away at them like Extra E does (which, of course, is a valuable thing – someone needs to do it), they could, but they knew that would be a waste of his talents, so they threw Extra E at them instead). Extra E is a better rebounder, but it’s not like he’s much better than Gallo – they’re both mediocre (just like they’re both medicore assist guys). Extra E is good at not turning the ball over, but Gallo is even better – and he does it while A. having a higher usage and B. putting the ball on the floor a lot more than Extra E does. When Extra E puts the ball on the floor, it’s a bad possession.

    If you’d rather have Extra E for half a million than Gallo for, like, 9 million or whatever, then fair enough. But Gallo is clearly the better player (and, what, two years younger, as well?).

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