Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, July 26, 2014

Marcus Camby acquired from Houston in sign-and-trade

According to multivitamin sorghum, New York has acquired former Knick Marcus Camby in a sign-and-trade which will send Toney Douglas, Jerome Jordan, Josh Harrellson, and two future second round picks (2014 and ’15) to the Houston Rockets.

News of the signing broke just as James Dolan was seen leaving a local taxidermist with a giant African Elephant stuffed with thousand dollar bills.

The deal is reportedly worth just north of $13 million over three years, with the third year being partially guaranteed.

Camby, who played four seasons for the Knicks and started at Center in place of an injured Patrick Ewing during the team’s last trip to the Finals in 1999, is said to be quite pleased by the prospect of returning to New York.

And I think we are, too…. Right?

For those keeping score at home, that’s two 39-year-olds signed to three-year deals in the last week. But whereas recently acquired Jason Kidd’s production has slipped steadily over the past few years, Camby continues to be more-than-serviceable in two areas — rebounding (he led the league in rebounding percentage last year) and defense (he’s tall and has arms the size of high school flag poles) — where the Knicks still desperately need patching.

One particularly bright silver lining to this deal is that the Knicks managed to keep Dan Gadzuric (AKA The Dunkin’ Dutchman Part whatever-Dutch-for-two-is), meaning they’d still have a $3 million exception to use on, oh, a shooting guard, let’s say, of which the Knicks currently have, like, one. And he has a broken knee.

So the roster is starting to come together. Aside from a few cosmetic moves, along with a possible Summer League roster-ascension, it looks like the biggest of our offseason splashes are out of the way.

What say you?

69 comments on “Marcus Camby acquired from Houston in sign-and-trade

  1. DRed

    I liked big jorts and JJ 2 was intriguing, but neither of them is as productive as the cambyman was last year. And I like the idea of James Dolan losing money. So I guess I’m on board.

  2. Robtachi

    Just about everything thus far this offseason, including the commendable effort to land Nash, has me saying confidently: In Grunwald We Trust.

    SHUMP SHUMP!

  3. BigBlueAL

    I cant believe the Knicks just traded their future “Big 3″ for Marcus Camby. This trade sucked.

  4. johnlocke

    Key outstanding FA questions:
    1) Do we match Fields’ outrageous offer, and if we do how does that restrict us, are or we already over the apron? Ephus??

    2) Will JR really sign for $2.8M, seems to be a players’ market this year, why aren’t teams going after him — do they really view him as that much of a headcase? Sure the horrid Miami performance didn’t help.

    3) Who else can we get that can play a combo of 2/3 that is available in the market at a price we can afford that can shoot, and hopefully defend. Is Brandon Rush a possibility? Who else?

    Miss anything?

  5. Robtachi

    Now what can we use Gadzooks for? Brandon Rush should be right around that $3mil exception in a S&T, shoots great from the perimeter, and advanced stats show him to be a general plus on defense. Just the kind of spark plug two-way guy you’d love to have in the middle of your bench.

  6. BigBlueAL

    I havent read even 1 article mentioning JR Smith among the available SG’s. Its pretty baffling. You read about OJ Mayo, Randy Foye, Pietrus, Courtney Lee but nothing at all about JR Smith. You only read about him re-signing with the Knicks and thats it, no other rumors at all. So far.

  7. Frank

    Re #2- ken Berger just tweeted that the market for 2nd tier guys has really collapsed. So maybe Jr is having trouble finding much larger offers in any good situation.

    #3- I’m pretty sure I saw a story that Brandon Rush was retiring. Bizarre but I think it’s true.

    I actually think a good option for a backup swing that might actually come for the minimum is Ronnie Brewer. he can’t shoot but he is a very good defender that can matchup against the Pierces, Wades, and Lebrons of the world.

  8. johnlocke

    Camby is a good get, but he’s no savior. He’s a great rebounder and good defender, but an offensive liability. The argument against would be, our defense was pretty good last year, our offense was average / below average. We could have been better off going for a more offensive minded player with those young assets, or keeping TD/Jorts/JJ and seeing how they develop over the summer. TD has to be due right? Anyway, happy Camby is here, helps us defensively, hurts us offensively.

    BigBlueAL:
    I cant believe the Knicks just traded their future “Big 3? for Marcus Camby.This trade sucked.

  9. Z

    DRed:
    JJ 2 was intriguing

    “JJ 2″ was actually JJ4 as far as recent Knicks go. (Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, and Jared Jordan were all Isiah-era blunders(…I’m still shocked Isiah didn’t convince Dolan to acquire Joe Johnson’s $124 mil pact to keep with the running motif:))

  10. Robtachi

    BigBlueAL:
    I havent read even 1 article mentioning JR Smith among the available SG’s.Its pretty baffling.You read about OJ Mayo, Randy Foye, Pietrus, Courtney Lee but nothing at all about JR Smith.You only read about him re-signing with the Knicks and thats it, no other rumors at all.So far.

    Maybe everyone knows it’s his unequivocal desire to stay with the Knicks, to the point that he’d never agree to such a sweetheart contract with someone else and would be a general pain in the ass having not gotten what he really wanted.

  11. Robtachi

    johnlocke:
    Camby is a good get, but he’s no savior. He’s a great rebounder and good defender, but an offensive liability. The argument against would be, our defense was pretty good last year, our offense was average / below average. We could have been better off going for a more offensive minded player with those young assets, or keeping TD/Jorts/JJ and seeing how they develop over the summer. TD has to be due right? Anyway, happy Camby is here, helps us defensively, hurts us offensively.

    (I hope) He was being sarcastic.

  12. jon abbey

    I think JR is definitely getting paid under the table somehow, and I am all for that.

    and if we match on Fields, you will read about a murder spree in the Cablevision offices the next day.

  13. StatsTeacher

    I would push for Rush, but he is a RFA. Golden State just drafted Barnes though, and Dorell Wright is on their roster too, crowded at the 3. Klay Thompsen will play a lot at the 2 there as well, so I say make an offer for Rush. Golden State usually doesn’t bargain well or trade well or match anything (trust me). Still intrigued by Courtney Lee, I always thought he was good, not sure if the “advanced stats” say that though. . . . . . . .

    johnlocke:
    Key outstanding FA questions:
    1) Do we match Fields’ outrageous offer, and if we do how does that restrict us, are or we already over the apron?Ephus??

    2) Will JR really sign for $2.8M, seems to be a players’ market this year, why aren’t teams going after him — do they really view him as that much of a headcase? Sure the horrid Miami performance didn’t help.

    3) Who else can we get that can play a combo of 2/3 that is available in the market at a price we can afford that can shoot, and hopefully defend. Is Brandon Rush a possibility? Who else?

    Miss anything?

  14. The leg accessory that is JVG

    Guy on the Nets blog wrote a good article about Howard. Pretty much somes up my sentiments as well as others exactly.

  15. Robtachi

    Is it just me, or is there more quality on the secondary FA market this off-season than ever before? I can’t remember a year in which I’ve been so enthusiastic about so many possible bench players.

  16. Frank

    Camby isn’t a savior but he will probably save Tyson from having to play more than 34 min per game which could make a huge difference as the season goes on. On top of that, he saves us from having to play Amare much at the 5, and when he and Amare play together, he doesn’t occupy the paint as much as Chandler does.

    Other things that can be useful-

    Well documented- highest rebound rate in the whole league
    Not so well documented- highest assist/TO rate of any center by A LOT- 3.2 (next was Jefferson at 2.2 then Hawes at 1.8) while with HOU last year.

    Averaged 3ish assists per 40- basically top 5 for centers

    Also- he’s an inefficient scorer but his usage is quite low, in the 11-13 range. So he doesn’t hurt you much if he throws p a couple bad shots.

    He’s so much of an upgrade over Jorts and Jerome Jordan it’s not even funny. Jordan maybe had some upside, but the guy is already 26 isn’t he? How much better is he going to get?

  17. ess-dog

    OK how does Fields, after a pretty crappy year by any standard, get a 3 year 20 mil offer and Danny Green stays with the Spurs for 3 yrs/12 mil?

  18. SeeWhyDee77

    johnlocke:
    Camby is a good get, but he’s no savior. He’s a great rebounder and good defender, but an offensive liability. The argument against would be, our defense was pretty good last year, our offense was average / below average. We could have been better off going for a more offensive minded player with those young assets, or keeping TD/Jorts/JJ and seeing how they develop over the summer. TD has to be due right? Anyway, happy Camby is here, helps us defensively, hurts us offensively.

    Remember how bad we were defensively when chandler was out of the game? Camby addresses that an even at 38 he’s better than any back up big we had last season..we will miss Jorts’ floor spacing but Camby is still better overall. Like I said last thread..we don’t need Camby and Kidd to play big minutes. Camby at 20 mpg is a bargain at that price..last season he averaged 9 rpg and almost 2 bpg in a little over 20 mpg. Jordan and Douglas were giving us nothin. Losing Jorts will hurt especially after seeing Mchale use him and coach him up..but I’d still rather have Camby

  19. DRed

    Well, the Raptors thought they were overpaying Landry on purpose. It was part of their brilliant scheme to land Nash, which they only slightly botched by neglecting to actually sign him. Also, the Spurs are probably the best run team in the NBA.

    ess-dog:
    OK how does Fields, after a pretty crappy year by any standard, get a 3 year 20 mil offer and Danny Green stays with the Spurs for 3 yrs/12 mil?

  20. yellowboy90

    Terrence Williams and West just might still be available. Also, Morrow might come back on the FA list. I also think some players like Forbes and etc will be out there after teams cut away the filler pieces

  21. johnlocke

    No I wasn’t look at Camby’s offensive stats. Dude shoots 40% from the FT line and only 50% at the rim. He shoots the same % at the rim as a 7 footer as Novak does from three. He also has no jump shot.

    Robtachi: (I hope) He was being sarcastic.

  22. johnlocke

    LOL

    jon abbey:
    I think JR is definitely getting paid under the table somehow, and I am all for that.

    and if we match on Fields, you will read about a murder spree in the Cablevision offices the next day.

  23. johnlocke

    Fair points Frank, Camby is 38 though so not sure how to project his future performance. Would have also loved to see an Amare, Melo, Smith, Kidd/Shump, Lin lineup from an offensive standpoint w/ Amare at the 5 from time to time.

    Frank:
    Camby isn’t a savior but he will probably save Tyson from having to play more than 34 min per game which could make a huge difference as the season goes on. On top of that, he saves us from having to play Amare much at the 5, and when he and Amare play together, he doesn’t occupy the paint as much as Chandler does.

    Other things that can be useful-

    Well documented- highest rebound rate in the whole league
    Not so well documented- highest assist/TO rate of any center by A LOT- 3.2 (next was Jefferson at 2.2 then Hawes at 1.8) while with HOU last year.

    Averaged 3ish assists per 40- basically top 5 for centers

    Also- he’s an inefficient scorer but his usage is quite low, in the 11-13 range. So he doesn’t hurt you much if he throws p a couple bad shots.

    He’s so much of an upgrade over Jorts and Jerome Jordan it’s not even funny. Jordan maybe had some upside, but the guy is already 26 isn’t he? How much better is he going to get?

  24. johnlocke

    They did it to get Nash, it didn’t work, they would be hurting themselves as the NBA free agent wars is all about relationships and trust, not just $$, so they most likely won’t rescind the offer.

    ess-dog:
    OK how does Fields, after a pretty crappy year by any standard, get a 3 year 20 mil offer and Danny Green stays with the Spurs for 3 yrs/12 mil?

  25. SeeWhyDee77

    yellowboy90:
    Would anyone want Artest if he is cut?

    Would love 2 if we didn’t need shooting so bad and Melo didn’t play such big minutes. Novak is limited yet effective enough that we don’t need him 2 play big minutes especially when we got Melo ahead of him. It’s just not enuf minutes for a guy like World Peace whereas Novak can be effective as a spot up shooter in minimal playing time in his role

  26. ephus

    johnlocke: 1) Do we match Fields’ outrageous offer, and if we do how does that restrict us, are or we already over the apron? Ephus??

    The only issue with matching Fields is the enormous tax liability. $ 5 million this year, $12.5 million next year, $25 million in year three. I think Dolan pays it if Smith is lured away, but otherwise I think he lets Fields walk.

    There are no apron-related restrictions.

  27. johnlocke

    Cool, you the man. Thanks! Any perspective on why there haven’t been takers / rumors of takers for JR?

    ephus: The only issue with matching Fields is the enormous tax liability.$ 5 million this year, $12.5 million next year, $25 million in year three.I think Dolan pays it if Smith is lured away, but otherwise I think he lets Fields walk.

    There are no apron-related restrictions.

  28. Robtachi

    johnlocke:
    No I wasn’t look at Camby’s offensive stats. Dude shoots 40% from the FT line and only 50% at the rim. He shoots the same % at the rim as a 7 footer as Novak does from three. He also has no jump shot.

    I meant the guy who said the trade sucked and called TDDWTDD, Jorts and JJ2 the next “big 3″.

  29. ephus

    As someone else commented on another thread, I think that the reason why JR Smith has not been rumored to go elsewhere is that rebuilding teams with cap space are afraid of his reputation on a young team, and contenders who only have the mini-MLE cannot meaningfully outbid the Knicks.

    The good news about JR Smith is that he can do anything on a basketball court. The bad news about JR Smith that he will do anything on a basketball court.

    One per team, and he is ours.

  30. SeeWhyDee77

    ephus:

    The good news about JR Smith is that he can do anything on a basketball court.The bad news about JR Smith that he will do anything on a basketball court.

    One per team, and he is ours.

    Haha…so true

  31. New Guy

    Rick Bucher is humiliating himself on ESPN tonight, saying this Howard deal needs to get done soon and it’s the best deal Orlando can get.

    We should’ve just tried offering that package to Orlando for Howard instead of to Houston for Camby. Only slightly worse, right?

  32. MoogSM

    Very happy we got the Camby-man back. If he can play anything like he did this year this is a huge deal for us. Last year it was lights out if Chandler got fouls or got hurt, and his vulnerability meant that he stopped playing as hard when he picked up 1 foul in the first quarter. Now we have another rim protector. And with Kidd, we have a backup PG who knows who to give the ball to and where. Yes, they’re old, but this is a win-now team.

    Missing out on Nash was devastating, but we sure have made up for it. IF Lin can develop a little AND Amare will accept coming off the bench, I think we’ve got ourselves a team!

  33. Unreason

    Though Clyde may be soon pitching Just for Knicks Men hair products to the 2nd unit, they’ve got my hopes up. Agism took a beating last season. I’d have predicted that Kobe, Nash, half the Spurs and the Celtics would be all be in serious decline and hobbling down the court by the end of the season because all the back-to-backs would expose their age. Not so much. It’s a very good roster already and could get even better.

  34. Ted Nelson

    Re: JR Smith. Yes, he isnthat much of a head case. Have you guys watched him play? Guy shoots every time he’s even near the ball, but first he dribbles around for 15 seconds.

    Seriously, though, I would guess it’s partially that he’s a headcase and maybe partially that it’s just assumed he’ll re-sign and he wants to re-sign.

    I don’t know if they’ll pay the luxury tax this time, but Dolan didn’t mind tens of millions a year on it during the Isiah years. So he might.

  35. hoolahoop

    The knicks continue to give up too much for too little. You don’t trade a pile of youth for a 38 year old guy unless he puts you over the top.
    Camby will be 41 at the end of his contract. Not to mention, he has a bad attitude.
    Bad trade.

  36. Unreason

    hoolahoop:
    The knicks continue to give up too much for too little. You don’t trade a pile of youth for a 38 year old guy unless he puts you over the top.
    Camby will be 41 at the end of his contract. Not to mention, he has a bad attitude.
    Bad trade.

    I disagree. If any of them seemed that promising, I’d feel differently, but to me at least they didn’t. Lots more rebounding and an even tougher defense are part of what I like. The other part is that Camby is very good at helping his teammates be better at team D. He talks constantly and shouts out what he sees and gets on people. Between Chandler, Shump, and him, the Knicks will have a serious constantly vigilant defensive floor general help keep Amare and others with a tendency toward wandering attention focused. At the very least it will help cement their identity as a very tough defensive team. At best the Knicks could have a really elite defense next season after Shump returns. Not just because of Camby, obviously, but he’ll add to the momentum they’ve been building toward that.

  37. Robert Silverman

    @IanBegley just reported thatJ.R. Smith has re-signed with the ?#Knicks?, league sources tell ESPNNewYork. Smith’s deal is for 2 years, $2.8 mil w/player option for 2nd yr

  38. Ben R

    This is a bad trade not because Jorts, JJ, TD and two 2nd round picks is better than Camby. This is a bad trade because we didn’t need to give up three young players and two picks to get Camby. Houston was letting him walk, all we had to do was send enough to make trading Camby better for Houston than getting nothing. Maybe Gadz, one young player and one pick, or maybe Gadz, one pick and some money.

    TD was terrible last year but he was pretty good his first two years and his hot streak at the end of the 10/11 season was a big reason we didn’t fall out of the playoffs after the Melo trade. Jorts was a serviceable young big man and JJ showed some limited potential. On top of that we gave up 2 2nd rounders which is not nothing, especially now that teams are limited to $3 million a year in traded cash.

    We have no 3rd string PG or 3rd string C despite the fact that Lin has never played starters minutes for a full season, Tyson has been injury prone in the past and our backups are one slip away from breaking a hip. TD and either Jorts or JJ would have given us a little insurance at the 1 and 5.

  39. nicos

    I’m okay with the deal but I’m not sure Camby’s that big an upgrade over Jeffries- far better rebounder, for sure but equally bad on offense (better passer but not as mobile a screener, both terrible finishers) and on defense, while Camby will block more shots, Jeffries is probably a better defender at this point. He is better but I’m not sure if he’s going to make a huge difference.

  40. jon abbey

    Robert Silverman:
    @IanBegley just reported thatJ.R. Smith has re-signed with the ?#Knicks?, league sources tell ESPNNewYork. Smith’s deal is for 2 years, $2.8 mil w/player option for 2nd yr

    nice, this was essential.

    Jeffries is almost never healthy, and presumably NY will sign him also, so there’s no reason to compare him to Camby.

    and Ben R, you have no idea what the market was for Camby, and what it would have taken to get him. we have no 3rd string PG or C, but last year our GM found Lin and Novak in the bargain bin, so I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt for now about filling out the roster.

  41. hoolahoop

    JJ has a great attitude.
    Camby has a horrible attitude.
    People don’t understand how important that is. . . including you stat guys that just start at his rebounding percentage.

    The guy’s going to be 42 at the end of his three year contract. Why give up cheap rotational players with potential along with draft picks. Where are the knicks going that they need to sell the future for old guys. These type of moves ensures the knicks to mediocrity ad infinitum.

  42. massive

    So Lin, Smith, Melo, Amar’e, Chandler, Kidd, Shumpert, Novak, and Camby is our 9 man rotation as of today. We need another 2 unless the team thinks that James White is the real deal, and a back-up PF is still needed. I’m holding out hope that we can get Elton Brand to play here, but I doubt he clears the waiver wire.

  43. diehardknickerbocker

    johnlocke:
    Camby is a good get, but he’s no savior. He’s a great rebounder and good defender, but an offensive liability. The argument against would be, our defense was pretty good last year, our offense was average / below average. We could have been better off going for a more offensive minded player with those young assets, or keeping TD/Jorts/JJ and seeing how they develop over the summer. TD has to be due right? Anyway, happy Camby is here, helps us defensively, hurts us offensively.

    we have a point guard remember, jeremy lin has a full season ahead of him wit jason kid guiding him thru all we need now is randy foye keyon dooling n shawn williams. bradon rush doesnt sound to bad either

  44. diehardknickerbocker

    jon abbey:
    I think JR is definitely getting paid under the table somehow, and I am all for that.

    and if we match on Fields, you will read about a murder spree in the Cablevision offices the next day.

    haha lol i could dig it

  45. diehardknickerbocker

    ess-dog:
    OK how does Fields, after a pretty crappy year by any standard, get a 3 year 20 mil offer and Danny Green stays with the Spurs for 3 yrs/12 mil?

    the beauty of being in newyork

  46. JK47

    Re-signing JR is just huge. That is awesome value for $2.8 mil.

    Now I’m pumped. All the good players from last year are back, and all the crappy ones are gone.

  47. massive

    I wonder if Grunwald has a move or two in him left. One of those former 6ers would be really nice.

    Considering that the Knicks finished the season going 18-6 and we removed all of the net minuses from the roster, I really think the division is ours this year. Well, unless the Nets get Dwight Howard of course. I have a feeling that a lot can go right this year, assuming we’re getting the same energy and accountability from the guys. 53-29 seems possible to me, and (unlike Miami) we aren’t one injury away from devastation.

  48. nicos

    jon abbey:

    Jeffries is almost never healthy, and presumably NY will sign him also, so there’s no reason to compare him to Camby.

    Camby will be taking the minutes Jeffries and Harrellson got last year. You can’t really play Camby and Jeffries together so getting Camby means few minutes (if any) for Jeffries. Yes, Jeffries has health issues but my point was that in terms of production, I really don’t see Camby making a giant difference- at best he’s a better rebounding Jeffries.

  49. BigBlueAL

    nicos: Camby will be taking the minutes Jeffries and Harrellson got last year.You can’t really play Camby and Jeffries together so getting Camby means few minutes (if any) for Jeffries.Yes, Jeffries has health issues but my point was that in terms of production, I really don’t see Camby making a giant difference- at best he’s a better rebounding Jeffries.

    Camby is not a better rebounding Jeffries, he is a much, much, much, much, much, much better rebounder than Jeffries. Oh and he also blocks shots. He also can actually cover opposing big men.

    I am truly stunned by the reaction to the Kidd and Camby pickups. Some people dont realize how much better the Knicks are right now.

  50. ruruland

    Robert Silverman: IanBegley just reported thatJ.R. Smith has re-signed with the ?#Knicks?, league sources tell ESPNNewYork. Smith’s deal is for 2 years, $2.8 mil w/player option for 2nd yr

    ;)

  51. ruruland

    BigBlueAL: Camby is not a better rebounding Jeffries, he is a much, much, much, much, much, much better rebounder than Jeffries.Oh and he also blocks shots.He also can actually cover opposing big men.

    I am truly stunned by the reaction to the Kidd and Camby pickups.Some people dont realize how much better the Knicks are right now.

    Right. Advanced stats would have you believe he is a better defensive player than Chandler, which is pure lunacy. He is, however, a very good defensive player who’s able to impact a lot more plays at the rim than Jeffries.

    Let’s remember, on top of the blocked shots and contests, Camby takes a lot of charges and has excellent hands.

    He’s nowhere near as good as Jeffries in terms of multiple effort/multiple rotation plays, but shots at the basket are the highest efficiency plays and he impacts those at much higher frequency.

    Neither guy is good individually against the ball. You want Camby to match-up against lighter, offensively challenged centers so he can roam around the paint. He thrives in zone defense.

  52. ruruland

    hoolahoop:
    JJ has a great attitude.
    Camby has a horrible attitude.
    People don’t understand how important that is. . . including you stat guys that just start at his rebounding percentage.

    The guy’s going to be 42 at the end of his three year contract. Why give up cheap rotational players with potential along with draft picks. Where are the knicks going that they need to sell the future for old guys. These type of moves ensures the knicks to mediocrity ad infinitum.

    Camby doesn’t have attitude issues but he is soft and will take himself out of games with minor injuries. You don’t want him to be one of your top leaders.

  53. ruruland

    Ben R:
    This is a bad trade not because Jorts, JJ, TD and two 2nd round picks is better than Camby. This is a bad trade because we didn’t need to give up three young players and two picks to get Camby. Houston was letting him walk, all we had to do was send enough to make trading Camby better for Houston than getting nothing. Maybe Gadz, one young player and one pick, or maybe Gadz, one pick and some money.

    TD was terrible last year but he was pretty good his first two years and his hot streak at the end of the 10/11 season was a big reason we didn’t fall out of the playoffs after the Melo trade. Jorts was a serviceable young big man and JJ showed some limited potential. On top of that we gave up 2 2nd rounders which is not nothing, especially now that teams are limited to $3 million a year in traded cash.

    We have no 3rd string PG or 3rd string C despite the fact that Lin has never played starters minutes for a full season, Tyson has been injury prone in the past and our backups are one slip away from breaking a hip. TD and either Jorts or JJ would have given us a little insurance at the 1 and 5.

    Dude, you can’t be serious. Look around the league and find me a top team that can absorb multiple injuries because they are 12 deep and still talented at the top.

    Denver didn’t even manage to pull off a complete 12 man roster and they’re probably the deepest squad in the NBA. San Antonio? You see how building for a 12 man team as opposed to a really strong 8 or 9 man squd makes the difference in the playoffs.

  54. ruruland

    nicos:
    I’m okay with the deal but I’m not sure Camby’s that big an upgrade over Jeffries- far better rebounder, for sure but equally bad on offense (better passer but not as mobile a screener, both terrible finishers) and on defense, while Camby will block more shots, Jeffries is probably a better defender at this point. He is better but I’m not sure if he’s going to make a huge difference.

    Camby is better on offense because of his ability to get the ball over the top of the defense and the superior o-rebound rate. He is a great high-low passer.

    Outside of that he will basically just hang around the perimeter and wait for shots to go up. The Knicks screen game with Tyson and Amar’e, given the pg situation, Jeffries skills aren’t as necessary as they were…. But we could still give him vet min because Camby is going to miss a bunch of games.

  55. ruruland

    Ted Nelson:
    Re: JR Smith. Yes, he isnthat much of a head case. Have you guys watched him play? Guy shoots every time he’s even near the ball, but first he dribbles around for 15 seconds.

    Seriously, though, I would guess it’s partially that he’s a headcase and maybe partially that it’s just assumed he’ll re-sign and he wants to re-sign.

    I don’t know if they’ll pay the luxury tax this time, but Dolan didn’t mind tens of millions a year on it during the Isiah years. So he might.

    You simply haven’t watched enough of him play or read this board when we’ve talked about him…

    He is superb in an off-ball, catch and shoot role. He couldn’t play that much last year because of the pg situation.

  56. ruruland

    massive:
    I wonder if Grunwald has a move or two in him left. One of those former 6ers would be really nice.

    Considering that the Knicks finished the season going 18-6 and we removed all of the net minuses from the roster, I really think the division is ours this year. Well, unless the Nets get Dwight Howard of course. I have a feeling that a lot can go right this year, assuming we’re getting the same energy and accountability from the guys. 53-29 seems possible to me, and (unlike Miami) we aren’t one injury away from devastation.

    Assuming this team can stay healthy for the most part, 53 wins is much closer to the floor than ceiling.

    Remember the talk about how deep the team was post MDA, pre Lin injuries. The Knicks just removed their four worst rotation players, some of the worst full-time rotational players in the NBA, and replaced them with two high quality, high impact reserves at positions of need.

    Even if we assume that all things stay constant from last year (which will seem absurd by January), Melo, JR and Amar’e playing awful, it’s a low to mid 50 win team.

    The fact that you’re likely to get Lin, JR and Novak for, say, 80 percent of the year rather than 30 percent of the year ,bumps the Knicks pythag up to the projected 50-53 win area, all things staying constant.

  57. SJK

    This is a bit off topic, speaking of next season Melo’s defense will be important. What were his Synergy numbers like this year?

  58. Nick C.

    This is a funny board. Last year TDDWTDD was renamed ___ he was so bad. JJ #4 had intriguing numbers in a few dozen mintues of garbage time. Jorts a few threes in a game hurt his hand and was more notable for Jim’s verbal caricatures of him than anything he actually did when he retruned. Yet there is handwringing and gnashing of teeth, I know it would be nice to be on the receiving end of a one for five or getting a player under 35 but still …

  59. ABG

    I look at the deal as Jordan, Jorts and Douglas for both Kidd and Camby. Making that trade allowed us to get both, not just one or the other. It’s a trade you make every day, because not one of those guys is getting a playoff minute for this team.

  60. Frank

    +1 to @65

    I think these are the 2 things that have people upset:
    1) too many years for old guys
    2) giving up on “potential” in JJ/Jorts/TD + 2 2nd-rounders

    To address #1 –
    - Camby will only get 2 years, which is fine by me. It’s unlikely IMHO that he will have a catastrophic dropoff in that time period. The $5M/year salary – who cares?
    - we have no idea how many years are guaranteed to Kidd. I think it’s likely 1 or 2 years guaranteed. The $3.09M/year salary – who cares?

    To address #2-
    - this team would have been 10 deep WITHOUT even considering Jorts/TD/JJ. After this season (regardless of this trade happening or not), we would only have mini-MLE and vet’s minimum to sign players (no sign-and-trades allowed after this summer for taxpaying teams because of new CBA).
    - TD would certainly be allowed to walk. He’s not bringing anything in trade other than possibly a late 2nd. He’ would not have played for us this year unless there was a total injury catastrophe
    - Jerome Jordan – I’m actually sort of sad about him because his #s are interesting, but is there really any chance he turns into anything other than a reasonable backup center? THCJ can say whatever he wants about NBA front offices, but when was the last time a 7′ guy with talent came out of nowhere after being drafted in the 2nd round, relegated to Europe for 1+ seasons, and being unable to get off the bench? These are the guys that people give chance after chance to if they have ANY talent.
    - Jorts – I like Jorts, but he has zero chance of ever being better than a 9th man on a good team. You can find 9th guys for the minimum every year.

    So – TD wasn’t going to play and was going to be let go. Jordan is interesting but unlikely to amount to much. And Jorts is a 9th man. All 3 were prob going to be elsewhere in 13-14. No sign/trades after this year. This is called taking crappy “assets” that will be worthless in 12 months and turning them into Kidd/Camby.

  61. Frank

    I’m sure someone out there is about to type that Deandre Jordan was a 2nd round pick and now is playing really well. by the way, did I mention that Jerome Jordan will be 26 by the time the season starts? This isn’t Deandre Jordan we’re talking about here, who is entering his FIFTH year in the league and is only 23.

  62. Jafa

    I see I’m not the only Knicks fan that is skeptical about signing old men and the expense of our young men…but I do like Camby vs. Kidd. I just wish we didn’t have to get robbed by the Rockets every time we trade with them. All our young talent (ex Lin and Shump) plus 2 2nd round picks – Morey must love it when he sees that 212 on his caller ID.

  63. The Infamous Cdiggy

    While I like Jorts as a rugged banger with an outside touch (when healthy), I agree with whomever that stated his ceiling to be Brandon Bass. Not bad, but expendable.

    Frank:
    I’m sure someone out there is about to type that Deandre Jordan was a 2nd round pick and now is playing really well.by the way, did I mention that Jerome Jordan will be 26 by the time the season starts?This isn’t Deandre Jordan we’re talking about here, who is entering his FIFTH year in the league and is only 23.

    Good point. Puts his “potential” in perspective.

    Maybe its me, but I don’t see why the Knicks don’t inquire about a “Godfather-ish” offer for Howard. From what I’ve read that the Nets are offereing, we couldn’t do better? Does Howard really want Brooklyn over Manhattan that bad?

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