Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, December 23, 2014

Marbury in ’08!

There was discussion earlier today about whether Marbury would return to the Knicks this season. Coach Isiah Thomas even remarked that he did not know if Marbury would return. According to a report, though, Marbury will return to the Knicks some time after the beginning of the new year.

Is this good news, though?

I think so, at least if he comes back in game shape. I am not a big fan of Marbury, but goodness, the Knicks options at guard are pretty flimsy at this point in time, so I think Marbury is still an upgrade.

I would especially love to see him paired with the new frontcourt of Jeffries, Lee and Randolph. See if he and Crawford can work well with two forwards (Lee and Jeffries) who do not NEED the ball.

But I can see him being just such a headcase that it might be a bigger detriment to the team than a positive.

Edited to Add: Some readers have brought up the notion of just holding on to Marbury for the rest of the year, since he will definitely be tradeable NEXT year, when his contract will have only one year left. While that is certainly true, is it not in the Knicks’ best interest, if they keep Marbury, to just keep him the WHOLE time, and just let his deal run out – and get the cap room that comes with that?

59 comments on “Marbury in ’08!

  1. oboogie

    its a lose lose situation. marbury hurts us when he is on the floor. and we are a terrible team for back court depth when he is not available.

  2. Ess-dog

    I say cut him. We’re better off without the heartache. The fans prefer to see Nate anyway just on entertainment value alone. It’s not like we’re winning anything WITH Marbury. I feel for the guy, but the relationship is too f’d up now to go forward. And frankly, Jamal’s a better player w/o starbury. Maybe we can swing a trade for a Tyronne Lue or somebody like that as a stop-gap. Nate and Lue can play point and crawford and fred can play the 2. Not fancy stuff, but a good stopgap til we get some good guards in the draft.

  3. Larry Bird

    Let’s see. GWB has a good year. The troop surge in Iraq is succeeding. No terrorist attacks. And the economy is outperforming all expectations. I don’t see Marbaby pulling that one off. And that’s factorial.

    There is good and bad if Marbaby comes back. The bad is he will be a bad influence and cause lots of drama. The good he will be a bad influence and cause lots of drama which will help in getting a high draft pick.

    If you cut him, you get rid of the cancer but you lose a asset to trade and take step back in the rebuilding process. If you keep him, you take a step back in the rebuilding process.

  4. Patrick Ewing

    I know some would like to cut and run from Marbury but we need to rebuild. All they have to do is hold onto Marbury for this season which is already lost. Then trade Marbury next season when he has an expiring contract which they say is very valuable to other teams.

  5. Mr. Black Guy

    Hey Foos, Don?t Forget:

    KEEP ISIAH! KEEP MARBURY RALLY & WALKIN
    CLOTHING DRIVE TO BENEFIT NYC?S HOMELESS SHELTERS

    SUNDAY DECEMBER 30, 2007 AT 11:00 am
    IN FRONT OF MADISON SQUARE GARDEN

    RALLY = Stand with us outside the Garden, Be Heard.
    WALKIN = We are encouraging all fans to attend the game against the Bulls to make a statement.
    BENEFIT = Donate a clothing item to NYC?s homeless
    shelters for those less fortunate.

    Please show your support Sunday, December 30, 2007 in
    front of MSG ?The Worlds Most Famous Arena? with the
    ?Most Richest Basketball Organization!?

  6. Mr. Black

    I am looking forward to Marbury’s return. He is flawed, but less so than any other backcourt player on the Knicks. I think he has played well with David Lee in the past so if he can start with Lee perhaps that trend will continue.

    If Marbury does return I think Thomas should bench Richardson. I would like to see Balkman, Marbury, and Lee as starters. I guess Crawford and Randolph should start as well.

    There are only a few guys on this team that give consistent effort. Guys who give consistent effort should start. David Lee and Balkman give consistent effort. Therefore, they should start.

    The Knicks are really at a tipping point. Marbury’s return will either right the ship or send the ship to the bottom of the sea. I hope he can help fix this mess.

  7. Pete

    The ONLY trade value Marbury has is an expiring contract, which makes him more attractive as the season wears on and his final year gets closer. The Knicks were and are the only team in the league who want his services at 20 mil. So the longer he is kept, the more valuable he becomes. Shuffling him out for another losing player with a bad contract is pointless. The problem is that Marbury’s fate here should be tied to some sort of strategic plan (obvious to most people, but clearly the Dolan/Weasel axis wouldn’t know good strategy if it walked up and hit them with a baseball bat). If getting the cap number down is a priority, keep him. Otherwise, hang on to a contract that becomes increasingly desirable in hope of using it for a player who might actually contribute to a rebuilding process (dirty words, I know).

  8. oboogie

    the problem is if we trade marbury we are going to get 50 cents to the dollar. that means we are still going to acquire AT LEAST 10 million in garbage talent toward the cap. we may get some draft picks but they’ll be protected and we may get some mid-level talent. its just not worth it. its time to accept the fact we are nowhere near being a playoff team and start from scratch.

  9. Frank O.

    I get so tired of the trade/cut logic.
    It makes no sense to cut Marbury.
    It makes no sense trading him.
    If you cut him, you lose his expiring contract next year, and you lose the benefit of simply having a sunsetting contract.
    If you trade him…well, first no one will want him…second, if they do want him, you have to take a risk on a bad contract coming back.
    The Bricks suck this year.

    Use Marbury, but start giving more minutes to your other guards to see what they can do. Personally, I would like to see what Robinson can do with prolonged minutes. The kid looked great in the summer league and has had moments this year where he has been incredibly productive.
    Crawford and Jones are a decent guard rotation with Robinson and Marbury.

    It is much more important – some on this board must understand – to get the Brinks’ fiscal house in order. Regardless of their bottomless pockets, having cap problems significantly undermines the Bricks’ deal-making ability. They are forced to make high-risk trades.

    And for those who say, Marbury’s salary barely makes a dent in the Bricks’ cap problems, I say crap: It must start somewhere, and when $20 million comes off the books after 08, the Bricks might start back to becoming the Knicks.

  10. Tgunn51

    Why Don’t the Knicks just start over . It’s time ! Send Thomas back up stairs , bring back Jeff Van Gundy & trade Curry & Marbury to the Kings! We will take Artest ( a proven effort on defense) & Mike Bibby to run the point. This will then send Crawford back to the two, Artest as the three , Lee & the 4 & Randolph @ the 5. Jeff knows how to build a team to work together. He knows how to make a team play defense . He knows how to win ! He is from NYC!!!!!!!!!

  11. Z

    “It makes no sense to cut Marbury.
    It makes no sense trading him.”

    If you are not going to trade him, then it does make sense to cut him. His contract still sunsets as scheduled, and it frees up a roster space for young players this summer.

    Young players that you don’t want learning the game from Stephon.

  12. Tgunn51

    Who cares about the Money ? Who cares if it’s on the Cap? It never bothered Dolan anyway ! Highest paid team for how many Years ? Bring in Artest , Bibby & Van Gundy !

  13. Frank O.

    The Bricks suck this year.

    If I’m the general manager and coach of the Bricks I view this as an opportunity to learn about my young guys.
    It is clear that Jeffries plays better when he gets some burn and continuity.
    At 6’11 and 240 (Ewing only weight 255), the wingspan of a 7-footer, with good mobility, and an ability to defend, make him the center, with Rose and Morris backing up.
    Then run a forward rotation of Randolph, Lee and Balkman, with all three getting roughly 30 minutes in various front line roles.
    I believe Lee is a better player than Randolph. He contributes better to the flow of the offense and tries on defense. Randolph plays only two aspects of the game well: Scoring and rebounding, and I have reservations on how well he scores based on his shooting percentage, which is only 46 percent. Lee is a more complete player. He passes well, defends adequately, scores efficiently (52 percent) and rebounds well.
    Balkman and Chandler need to get more minutes at small forward. Q is done. I have seen enough of his air balls. I’ve been saying he’s done for this entire season. He has not looked good for a very long time.
    Give the kids a shot.
    Curry is garbage, a big, fat, bucket of garbage.
    True the Bricks weren’t playing great at the start of the 4th quarter last game, but that is part of the ebb and flow of a basketball game. The rotation Zeke was running to that point was hustling and generally playing well.
    But by putting Curry out there, the team suddenly had a 300-pound dead-weight around its neck. His horrible play was clearly responsible for the team falling apart. He essentially wasted five possessions at a key juncture.

    Zeke, with a modicum of consistency, might actually have a decent team. He just needs to commit to youth. He’s said all along he wanted to bring along young talent.
    Well, the Bricks have Lee, Balkman, Chandler, Morris and Robinson warming the pine.
    Use them. Commit to them.
    At 8-20, you might as well give the young talent you celebrated a shot.
    You just might be surprised at what they can do.

  14. Mr. Black

    I think he has played well with young players like David Lee in the past so if he helped Lee he can help other young players. I think Marbury is easily one of the top 3 black PG in the NBA and I am looking forward to his return. This is not racially motivated or racist because he knows how to win! He is from NYC!!!!!!!!!

  15. Frank O.

    Z:
    You still need the body at point.
    All the Bricks have at point without Marbury is Jones, Crawford and Robinson, none of whom are natural PGs at this point, although I would like to see Zeke give Robinson more time at point.
    You need the body. And Marbury has been effective for short periods throughout the season.

    I don’t see Collins as an NBA player, let alone a PG. He’s too slow, can’t shoot, and can’t even hit a foul shot.

  16. Frank O.

    I don’t care if he’s purple and from Mount Olympus:
    Marbury is a cancer and has never learned how to effectively run a winning NBA team. After more than 13 years in the league his won-loss record pretty much speaks for itself. He had Kevin Garnett as a teammate and shot it all to hell over jealousy. That alone speaks volumes.

    I would want him only to give other developing guards a blow at this time.

  17. Tgunn51

    Mike Bibby would be a great Fit ! PG & can shoot !
    Artest would be a grat fit , defense , rebounder , & a proven energy guy!

  18. Joe V.

    12/28/2007 ? OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE

    FIRE ISIAH! DUMP DOLAN PROTEST & WALKOUT
    CLOTHING DRIVE TO BENEFIT NYC?S HOMELESS SHELTERS

    SUNDAY DECEMBER 30, 2007 AT 11:00 am
    IN FRONT OF MADISON SQUARE GARDEN

    PROTEST = Stand with us outside the Garden, Be Heard.
    WALKOUT = We are encouraging all fans that attend the
    game against the Bulls to make a statement by leaving
    the Garden at the end of the 3rd quarter and join us
    in our protest.
    BENEFIT = Donate a clothing item to NYC?s homeless
    shelters for those less fortunate.

    Die-hard fans have suffered tremendous anguish
    watching this ownership and management dismantle
    and ruin this proud franchise and everything
    it stands for, our Knicks. The laughing stock of the
    NBA.

    In fact, we?ve been told by one of our die-hard, disgruntled
    Knick Fans that they will be burning their Knicks tickets
    for the media at the protest.

    WE MUST BE HEARD!

    Please show your support us a s well as admired and
    highly influential Norman Siegel, New York City?s most
    successful Civil Rights Attorney and a many other media
    types Sunday, December 30, 2007 in front of MSG
    ?The Worlds Most Famous Arena? with the
    ?Most Pathetic Basketball Organization!?

    I can be reached via email at joeyvworks@yahoo.com

  19. caleb

    Last time I saw Bibby running down the court he had a fork sticking out of his back. He’s one of the only PGs in the league who plays less defense than Marbury..

  20. oboogie

    derrick rose is the answer for ny. at the rate we are losing we may get a high enough pick to acquire him.

  21. caleb

    As for Marbury… when you talk about cutting the guy, I’m with Frank O. – we don’t have a backup. It is stupid to cut anyone. With 15 roster spots you’re already carrying more players than are really NBA-level. And if you HAVE to cut some vet it’s gonna be Jerome James.

    As for a trade, or letting the deal expire, I can see it hasn’t sunk in just HOW bad our cap situation is.

    Quick primer (keep in mind that this year’s salary cap is $55.6 million and it doesn’t usually go up more than 2 or 3 million each year).

    Summer 2008: we’re committed to $89.8 million PLUS our 1st round pick ($2-4 million if it’s top 10) PLUS the 15th guy… Fred Jones if we re-sign him, which we shouldn’t, but we probably will. Guess we’ll be @$95 million.

    Summer 2009. Let’s say Marbury’s deal expires. And Rose’s. Whoopee!!!! Now we’re committed to just $22.6 million. BUT wait!! Then there’s the 2008 1st rounder (@$3m)… the 2009 1st rounder (@2m)… player options for Eddy Curry ($10.5m, think he’s turning that down to be a FA?… Quentin Richardson ($8.7, ditto)… Jamal Crawford (yup, $9.4))… and Jerome James (6.6). That’s $98m. But wait! there’s more! … We pick up player options for Balkman ($2.1m) and Chandler ($1.3)… and let’s assume we sign David Lee to an extension starting at a very conservative $7m… and sign Nate to an extension starting at a very conservative $3m… and a 15th guy, either a roster-filling minimum-wager or Brian Cardinal at $6 mil.

    Either way, we’re over $75 million, with or without the greatest point guard in the NBA.

    Summer 2010. Whew. Here’s our chance, right?

    Well, we’re committed to $47.5 million for Randolph, Curry, Jeffries, Crawford and Chandler… throw in $7 million for Lee (let’s assume, for the hell of it, that we didn’t re-sign Nate)… another $6 million for the 2008 and 2009 first-rounders (2010 pick goes to Utah)… another $5 million (very conservative) for Balkman’s extension, just kicking in… another $6 million for the 2008 and 2009 first-rounders (no pick in 2010)… and we’re at $65 million with 6 roster slots to go. That’s already flirting with the cap, maybe even over.

    Bottom lines…
    – if we can dump Randolph for a shorter contract in the next three years, we MIGHT be able to sign a big-time free agent in the summer of 2010, or make a Kobe-type trade. Aside from Randolph, only other money-saving options are trading Curry AND Crawford or Jeffries, or not re-signing Lee and Balkman. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    – Before 2010, it makes no sense to let contracts (like Marbury) expire, if you can get any asset in return (an asset with a contract no longer than 2010).

    – If you hadn’t noticed, Isiah is an idiot.

    All my numbers come from this website:
    http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/knicks.jsp

    Other sites like hoopshype might be a few dollars off in one direction or the other, but the basic picture is the same.

  22. cbrooklyn

    “Zeke, with a modicum of consistency, might actually have a decent team”

    i kind of agree with this statement, i just think isiah is a horrible coach. he undoubtly has a vision for talent(much better than scott layden), but as a coach he is by far the worst! he doesnt have a strategy for the game and never adjusts to the flow of the game. HE makes this team seem hopeless when in fact this team can be much more competitive than it is(this proven by the first three quarters in orlando). Why put muffins back inthe game after sitting three quarters? I believe its this coaching staff who is ruining the mental health of its players and fans! sorry isiah although i was happy when you took over for latent layden, but i believe its time for YOU TO GO!! Thanks for bringing some young talent to new york, but now we need someone competent to develop this talent..YOU SUCK ROCKS!!!!!!!!!

  23. caleb

    Typo in paragraph starting “Summer 2009″: shouldn’t be “$98 million,” should be “$62 mil”… doesn’t affect anything else.

    sorry the rest is barely legible… had to type fast. boss watching!

  24. cbrooklyn

    HEY CALEB I CHECKED OUT THAT SIGHT, WOW DAVID LEE ONLY MAKES 900,000??? UNBELIEVABLE! I HOPE THEY ARE AT LEAST GIVING THE GUY A CHRISTMAS BONUS CHECK UNDER THE TABLE!

    THERE ARE SOME HORRIBLE NUMBERS ON THAT LIST…

  25. caleb

    yes, it’s ugly.

    The kind of trades we should be making, strictly for cap reasons, would be…

    – Randolph for Ben Wallace (maybe get ‘em to throw in Duhon or a 2nd rounder)

    – Curry for Etan Thomas, or Jeffries for Antonio Daniels.

    convince other teams to bite on a couple of those, and we’re plenty under just in time to sign LeBron! (then he signs with the Brooklyn Nets in time for their opening season)

  26. Z

    “I can see it hasn?t sunk in just HOW bad our cap situation is.”

    Trust me, it has sunk in…

    “It is stupid to cut anyone… And if you HAVE to cut some vet it?s gonna be Jerome James.”

    The culture that surrounds the Knicks is highly toxic and it’s not Jerome James’ fault. Isiah, Stephon, Mills, and Dolan are all tied at the hip to a de-railed franchise. The club is so negative right now that Lee is dreaming of being dealt away and Balkman and Chandler (the only other “young guys” worth holding onto) don’t even get PT.

    Cutting Marbury compromises a trade chip next February, but it would serve to do to things: 1) it would reduce tension on the team which is stunting the growth of the young players. 2) it would keep Isiah or his successor from trading Marbury’s contract for Glen Rice and Luc Longley.

    “if we can dump Randolph for a shorter contract”

    I’d trade Zach Randolph for Steve Francis right now, but alas, he’s already been cut by the Blazers (who incidently didn’t seem to think holding onto Franchise as a future trade chip was all that worth it. They cut and run, and the Blazers are doing alright by it).

  27. caleb

    Z, I agree with most of what you post here, but I don’t think chemistry or a toxic environment has anything to do with how bad the team is – it’s because the players on the floor suck.

    If the Knicks were winning, or had some hope, David Lee would be happy. (apropos of very little, he was a pallbearer for Marbury’s dad, so it’s not like he hates the guy)

    I feel your pain on #2 – I mean, as long as IT has his finger on the button, something terrible could happen – but buying out Marbs won’t change that.

    What I could see, is telling him to sit home all year, to basically tank the season and increase our lottery odds. It never seems to work, but what the hell? You still have him as a trade chip.

    And… here’s an example of a worthwhile Marbury trade… next winter we send him to the Wiz for Thomas, Haywood and Antonio Daniels AND a 1st round pick. They clear $20 mil from their 2010 cap (setting them up to sign a FA in 2009) and we get (buy) a 1st round pick for our rebuilding.

    Or the same deal to Sacto for Brad Miller, Kenny THomas & a pick. (waive the players, keep the pick)

    Or maybe even Atlanta, for Joe Johnson and Speedy Claxton (they’re always cheap and might want the cap space in 2009).

    Or to Miami for Shaq & a pick.

  28. caleb

    good line from Hollinger today…
    “with a few teams already looking ahead to the 2008 draft (I won’t name names, but one of them rhymes with ‘two pork sticker shockers’),”

    And while I was wasting time reading up on the NBA, I saw Chad Ford dissing Hibbert… says no scout has him sniffing the top 10.

    Sorry, Owen…
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=StockWatch-071228&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fdraft2008%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dford_chad%26page%3dStockWatch-071228 (Free today)

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=ProRater-071228&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fdraft2008%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dhollinger_john%26page%3dProRater-071228

  29. Z

    “I don?t think chemistry or a toxic environment has anything to do with how bad the team is – it?s because the players on the floor suck.”

    I think it goes deeper than the players on the floor sucking. That is why I like the debate a few threads back about whether the 2003 Knicks would beat the 2007 Knicks. That team really did suck talent wise, but they were a more competent team because their chemistry didn’t suck. Their margin of defeat wasn’t nearly as wide and they fought hard. This Knicks team has the worst chemistry of any team I’ve ever followed, and it is not surprising the record reflects it.

    I’m not really arguing to cut Marbury. I mentioned it only because Frank O. said not to trade him or cut him, and I feel that if he’s not going to be traded, he should be cut because what he brings to the team is negative. I wish we had Jared Jordan or another promising PG to play in his place, but even with Collins starting for the rest of the season, I’d feel there is at least some purpose to this season continuing. As it is, Marbury will only be playing out his contract in NY. That may make for interesting NY Post headlines, but it makes for boring basketball, both from a winning standpoint (because there won’t be much winning), and from a rebuilding standpoint.

    If I had to choose a Knick to mysteriously vanish from the roster, it wouldn’t be Marbury. It would be Zach Randolph (easily my least favorite Knick since Rod Strickland). But Marbury is the one that is AWOL, and when he’s around he doesn’t bring that much to the team anyway except bizarre behavior off the court and mediocre basketball on it.

    Cut him or don’t cut him, but I think what is best for the Knicks is if he doesn’t play basketball for the New York Knicks anymore.

  30. jon abbey

    “I think what is best for the Knicks is if he doesn?t play basketball for the New York Knicks anymore.”

    I’ve been saying this here since preseason, barring a major injury to Crawford.

  31. iyamwutiam

    During this fall – Marbury publicly stated he would be going to Italy after his contract was over- this implies two things:
    1. The Knicks have told him he will NOT be resigned
    2. No other teams are interested

    So it is safe to assume that Marbury is gone in one of two scenarios:
    1. He plays out his contract
    2. He will be traded for an expiring contract that DWARFS Theo Ratliffs’ 11 million dollars

    Caleb said:
    “Summer 2009. Let?s say Marbury?s deal expires. And Rose?s. Whoopee!!!! Now we?re committed to just $22.6 million. BUT wait!! Then there?s the 2008 1st rounder (@$3m)? the 2009 1st rounder (@2m)? player options for Eddy Curry ($10.5m, think he?s turning that down to be a FA?? Quentin Richardson ($8.7, ditto)? Jamal Crawford (yup, $9.4))? and Jerome James (6.6). That?s $98m. But wait! there?s more! ? We pick up player options for Balkman ($2.1m) and Chandler ($1.3)? and let?s assume we sign David Lee to an extension starting at a very conservative $7m? and sign Nate to an extension starting at a very conservative $3m? and a 15th guy, either a roster-filling minimum-wager or Brian Cardinal at $6 mil.”

    2009- the salary would drop to 58 million- from 90 million. The the team will actually look a lot better IMHO because:
    1. Curry and Randolph will find some equilibrium at Center. I totally agree with Isiah’s plan of playing both of them at center and splitting the minutes. It is becoming obvious that he is putting pressure on both of them to play defense and that Randolph has proven whatever conference – he is a DAMN good player – he shoots very well and rebounds decently. He just needs to learn that he can not take it to the hole like Lebron and D’wade- but then again – who can?! It took Odom and Kobe almost 3 years to find chemistry and now the Lakers are finally benefitting from it – as is Bynum.

    2. Jeffries has shown SIGNIFICANT improvement and will be a useful defensive stopper – this year he is healthy and has also shown that he is working o his offense.

    3. 2009 we have 2 more expiring contracts in Richardson, James again a useful thing to have since it totals 15 million!

    So by 2009/2010- there will be plenty of money to sign Lee,Robinson etc.

    I REALLY wish people would REMEMBER the history of the KNICKS and have perspective of what actually happened over the years!!

    Consider this that in 2001 (can we agree this is not Isiah’s fault?) the Knicks were 55 million dollars over the 35 million dollar cap. Also lets not forget the wonderful contracts of Alan Houston, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley – all players that went on to be multiple all stars from 2001 to present day-HA!! (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/oconnor/2003-12-23-thomas_x.htm)

    In fact – the Knicks were committed to 69 million dollars in 2004-2005 alone !!). The point of all these facts -which people tend to dismiss is that the cap situation was tremendously HORRENDOUS for the Knicks WAY before Isiah ever came here – and can only be compared to the San Francisco 49ers cap situation before they became a basement team for a 15 years and still counting.

    Perspective – the way I see it:
    1. Marbury and Brown were the fill the seats till Isiah could get some youth and develop players. Brown – of course -refused to play the youth, wanted J Rose. M. Rose and Richardson (why I will never know) and had public spats with Marbury. But I think it was the fact that he refused to play the young players mainly.

    This move – was NOT an Isiah move at all- as we all know that the first thing Larry Brown does is bench all the rookies for like 4 years and acquires a bunch of veterans – see Indiana, Philadelphia and of course Detroit.

    Anyway – I can go on and on – but suffice to say – that as for Isiah and the Knicks the entire Larry Brown episode was a colossal waste of a year and perhaps two – due to not letting Lee and the other younger players get more minutes to develop. No doubt Isiah took the
    ‘credit/blame’ for all these moves – but it does not play into Isiah’s approach of spotting talent and developing it. At some point – it became obvious to Dolan- that this is the SAME approach Layden/Riley/ Van Gundy used to put the Knicks into salary cap hell and deplete them of any real talent through the draft. Frank Williams/Charlie Ward/ Lampej etc – the list of busts picked by the Kicks is singular in how long its been since we drafted anyone with talent.

    So if Isiah came on board Jan. 2004 – and 2005/2006 was basically a waste, and he spends 2006 -2007 developing the rookies – particularly Robinson and Lee – who look appreciably better this year – all while having to handle the cap- which he did – he cut at least 5-7 million of the Stevie Francis trade as well- including Randolph + Jones salary!

    What I see this year – is :
    1. As people thought – the Curry + Randolph combo is taking time to jell. Mainly because Curry refuses to be a second option after finding glory last year in averaging 20 points/ 7 rebounds and leading the ENTIRE NBA in field goal percentage. In addition – he is still not taking seriously the need to play defense or at the VERY least stay out of foul trouble.

    Isiah WAS patient – I think waiting 10-20 games for your two potentially dominant players to sort themselves out and play together is what you would HAVE to do – given the year Curry had last year and given how consistent Randolph has been as a scorer and rebounder this year.

    Richardson and Marbury are gone – and like all employees who know they are being let go – there is going to be a lack of effort and commitment. This is a throwback to the Spreewell complex – and the fact that Marbury thought because he had ‘one’ sort of good year with the Knicks that they ‘owed’ him an extension. But CLEARLY – this year shows the Knicks NEVER had any intention of re-signing him from day one and that he was a seat filler first and foremost. Richardson was mainly brought in with the two Roses as a Larry Brown -I want veterans and he is ostensibly pouting this year.
    Only Malik Rose is a true professional who is playing hard regardless of his contract situation.

    This year – he has really focused on giving Robinson and Lee more time and they HAVE produced and are consistent – not perfect but definitely they are both headed for their best years. Jeffries is playing better and is actually contributing some on offense but his defense is better and in quite a few games he ha played very well. Randolph – is a steal- most games – he is the Knicks most consistent shooter from 20 feet to all the way in the post. I really think – the trade was a good thing – no way either Francis or Frye produced with that type of consistency. Fred Jones has also contributed on defense and has stabilized the backcourt- it’s his first year but I feel he will get better and commit less mistakes as time goes on – its his first year with the team which is in progress of finding its new identity.

    I am sure – he is not starting Balkman because it is not enough anymore to be an energy player who can’t shoot – he will stay benched till he develops a consistent 5-10 foot jumper and improves his ball handling skills. Chandler is the hidden gem- I mean this guy has KRAAZY hops – did you see all the blocked shots- no point unwrapping him till later – for now – let him learn and develop his over all game.

    Crawford should be playing PG in my opinion – if he plays shooting guard – he is a disaster -because he thinks he will make very shot. At PG – he has more responsibility to distribute and this will make him/ force him to get others involved and perhaps by the end of the year – finally (FINALLY) develop a good sense of shot selection. I personally think he could be a Chaucey Billups -who took 5-6 years to develop and played PG from day one!!

    This is probably WHY – he has played more minutes THIS year than any other year of his entire career- let’s also not forget he was on the bench most of the time for the years in Chicago. I definitely feel that Crawford by 2009/2010 could be a VERY effective clone of Billups. He would only be 29 considering that Billups blew up when he was 27.

    So in conclusion you have:
    Crawford at the point, with Jones for defense/Robinson for quickness/penetration. Jeffries/Randolph and Lee in the front court. Balkman/Chandler/Collins developing into effective players.

    That only leaves James, Morris and Curry. personally – I think the ONE team that could really use Curry is the Nets- they are a perimeter oriented team that really need a post presence. Playing with Carter/Kidd and Jefferson – he will get a lot of looks in the past where he CAN finish.

    As for James- well we are stuck with him :). Morris may learn a lot from both Zbo and Curry – to be an effective scorer while being athletic- we all knew -he was a project and if he pans out – look out!1 He may be ready by the time James is gone-giving you a pretty good backup or starting center.

    I really think that Isiah is on the right track and that as usual the true story will emerge when he leaves. Once the Knicks are rid of the seat fillers and Larry Brown moves – mainly Marbury/Q. Richardson and Rose . By 2009 – the Knicks will have salary cap space, a good bunch of youngsters, high draft picks and a sustainable future. They may not become the New England Patriots of the NBA – but certainly if you buy my premise that 2004-2006- he was severely handicapped by walking into a new situation , having to fill seats and the Larry Brown fiasco – and measure him from 2007 tp 2009 – we may come to a different assessment.

  32. iyamwutiam

    Z – how do yo hate a player that has 18 points/10 rebounds and 2 assists in 33 minutes a game?!?!/

  33. jon abbey

    because he gives it all back at the other end. you’ll note that Portland is thriving without his toxic presence (not that he’s the biggest problem in NY, but he’s certainly not helping).

  34. Donald Trump

    iyawu…if you’re not on the Knicks payroll, you can be. Just print out your post and email to the president and gm of basketball operations. You’ll be hired by Monday.

  35. caleb

    iyawu – it looks like you pasted a full paragraph from my post without reading it. Without major salary-dumping trades we are way over the cap in 2009, 2010 and even 2011.

    Q and James are on the books through 2010. Jeffries, Curry and Crawford have us on the hook through 2011, assuming they exercise their options, which they will.

  36. caleb

    ok, here’s a trade proposal:

    We send Steph to LA for Kwame Brown, Vlad Radmanovic and Javaris Crittenden… or instead of Crittenden, maybe Koby Carl (to make salaries work) and a 1st round pick (yeah, it’ll be late).

    LA gets a veteran point guard for a bunch of part-timers, they make a run with Marbury/Kobe/Walton/Odom & Bynum. Plus, they dump their worst long-term contract.

    NYK gets a young asset, and as a bonus trims Kwame’s $9m off the payroll next year.

    But there’s a problem… Vlad sucks, Vlad’s contract sucks and it runs through 2011, while we are desperately trying to clear cap space. How do we dump Vlad’s contract? Bring in a 3rd team. There might be one or two other options, but I think Cleveland might take him… they’re desperate for outside shooting (which is one thing he does) and have their own (almost as) bad contracts to dump in return. Plus, they’re the one team not trying to clear cap space for LeBron, because, hey – they have him.

    So the final deal looks like:
    – Marbury to LA
    – Kwame & Crittenden (or a 1st rounder + Koby Carl) to NYK
    – Vlad to Cleveland
    – Eric Snow to NYK

    We come out even on the $$ and cap space when it counts (everyone’s expired by 2010) and pick up a decent prospect for Marbury.

    Now, if I were LA, I’d hold out for Andre Miller instead… but if they can’t get Andre, I don’t think this is a bad deal for them.

    If I were Cleveland… I dunno. How much do they like Vlad? What are their long-term plans? To sweeten the deal for them, we could take Larry Hughes off their hands in exchange for Vlad & Crawford, or Vlad & Jeffries… it would hit us harder in the wallet, but Hughes still comes off the cap in 2010, and we’d finally get rid of one of those 2011 deals.

    Or… we could try trading Zach for Hughes in a separate deal, or Jeffries & Crawford for Hughes (they might even take the Jeffries/Crawford offer).

    Thing is – Cleveland won’t go for anything that helps us clear 2010-2011 cap room, because that makes it easier for us to grab LeBron.

    Oh well. Laker/Cleveland deal could still work.

  37. gmal

    iyamwu-
    Curry never jelled with anyone prior to getting here mainly because he wants to be the only option not the second option – see how many assists he gets or help defense he provides. The only thing he ever jelled with is a burger with extra bacon sandwich.
    You left out that Isiah’s Marbury deal had us giving up 2 expiring contracts and picking up Hardaways contract insuring we wouldn’t come out of salary cap hell for a few more years plus we gave up an immediate #1 and another #1 is due by the latest at 09/10. As you say we were way over the cap when Isiah got here and he knew the numbers but all he did was extend it out further, a bit of history we should not repeat.

  38. Joe V.

    Hey Gang,

    Just wanted to thank everyone in advance for your support if you can make it on Sunday. It’s GREATLY appreciated. Hopefully we can get our voices heard or at the least feel better about ourselves that we did something instead of nothing.

    The following is the Official Press Release sent out to over 100 Beat Writers and Sports Reporters at TV and Radio in NYC.

    12/28/2007 ? OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE

    FIRE ISIAH! DUMP DOLAN PROTEST & WALKOUT
    CLOTHING DRIVE TO BENEFIT NYC?S HOMELESS SHELTERS

    SUNDAY DECEMBER 30, 2007 AT 11:00 AM
    IN FRONT OF MADISON SQUARE GARDEN

    PROTEST = Stand with us outside the Garden, Be Heard.
    WALKOUT = We are encouraging all fans that attend the
    game against the Bulls to make a statement by leaving
    the Garden at the end of the 3rd quarter and join us
    in our protest.
    BENEFIT = Donate a clothing item to NYC?s homeless
    shelters for those less fortunate.

    Die-hard fans have suffered tremendous anguish
    watching this ownership and management dismantle
    and ruin this proud franchise and everything
    it stands for, our Knicks. The laughing stock of the
    NBA.

    In fact, we?ve been told by one of our die-hard, disgruntled Knick Fans that they will be burning their Knicks tickets for the media at the protest.

    WE MUST BE HEARD!

    Please show your support us as well as admired and
    highly influential Norman Siegel, New York City?s most successful Civil Rights Attorney and a many other media types Sunday, December 30, 2007 in front of MSG ?The Worlds Most Famous Arena? with the
    ?Most Pathetic Basketball Organization!?

    I can be reached via email at joeyvworks@yahoo.com

    FIRE ISIAH! DUMP DOLAN!

    Joe V.

  39. Ess-dog

    caleb, there’s no way the zen master is going to want to coach someone like Steph. 1 headcase (kobe) is enough…
    iyam is right: noone wants marbury. noone. nobody. prolly not even in italy. i think what will happen is he’ll come back and play above average. boost us out of lottery range but still suck… you know like a 32 win team. Maybe we can trade him over the summer or next season for an expiring contract. The goal is to keep spirits up until he’s gone so we can REALLY rebuild.
    Curry might still have value to someone that needs low post scoring. Otherwise, he just becomes a backup center for 2 years… sucks, but what can you do? In the meantime, Nate, Balkman, Lee and Chandler improve and by ’09-’10 we find stars at center and shooting guard through the draft or free agency.

  40. Ben R

    “how do yo hate a player that has 18 points/10 rebounds and 2 assists in 33 minutes a game?!?!/”

    Zach Randolph gets rather gaudy stats, but it is not about how many points you score but how efficiently you score them. On top of being a bad teammate and a bad defender with a higher than average turnover rate and a lower than average assist rate, he has failed to shoot above the league average in efg% all but twice in his career and failed to shoot over the league average in ts% in all but three seasons in his career. In fact his career averages in efg%, ts%, assist rate and turnover rate are all worse than the average NBA player.

    The only things that Zach Randolph does that is better than average is rebound rate which is pretty good for his career and usage rate which is very high.

    So I will admit that Randolph is a good rebounder and shoots alot more than average but aside from those two things he has been consistantly average to below average in every other way.

    On top of that he dominates the ball, alienates his teammates and fails to give effort on defense. At least four times in the Orlando game he did not even try to rotate on defense. He stayed on his man and caused his teammate to look very bad. There is a reason multiple Blazers asked management to trade him.

    Antoine Walker has averaged 18 pts 8 rbs and almost 4 asts in his career yet I think we would all agree he is a bad player that has consistantly hurt the teams he played on. Zach Randolph is a similar example, I just hope we can move him before the rest of the league figures it out.

  41. iyamwutiam

    Don Trump- I am a fan – I wouldn’t mind working for the Knicks :D – but in truth – this is how I feel and I feel that coming into a salary cap hell with an aging roster full of overpaid players is not an easy job particularly in the garden. I don’t begrudge anyone the right to have expectations – however – one must be realistic and also take into consideration that not all setbacks are Isiah’s fault.

    As I said repeatedly – the moves of Marbury/Brown (and with Brown the two Roses and Richardson) should not be and can not be solely attributed to Isiah. I already went thru that bit.

    I would agree that he takes the full burden of the Eddie Curry /Zach Randolph/Jeffries/James signing.

    But again – I think most of these have been judicious. The James/Jeffries does NOT count against the cap as per the Collective Bargaining agreement (mid-level exceptions-both of them- hence they don’t count against the cap).

    Randolph is a 26 y/o guy who has great stroke from 20 feet in , is a consistent scorer and decent rebounder for less than 15 million a year – and who is basically averaging a double double for the last 4 years is not an atrocious investment. The reason is field goal percentage is not above 50 percent is because he shoots further away from the basket- unlike Lee who can barely shoot consistently at 5-10 feet. For all of you hating Randolph- as I said 18 pts/10 rebound/2 assists in 33 minutes. Yes he gives up some points on the other end – but who doesn’t? Name one power forward who is with the exception of Garnett and maybe -just maybe Duncan and Barkley. No one ever pretended to the fans that Randolph was a franchise player in the mold of Garnet/Duncan or Barkley.

    Curry- last year was a beast and as gmal said – he wants to be the FIRST option (absolutely right on)- which is not unreasonable – as he has produced when he was- the part that HE is NOT getting is – that the whole world knows he can score from the low block and so the triple/double team really started coming -forcing him into turnovers/fouls and of course the vicious cycle of immature frustration. He is signed at less than 11 million (Darko Milic money!!) for the length of his contract!! Which is very attractive regardless. Also as I said earlier put into context -that he averaged 20 poins/7 rebounds and had the highest field goal percentage in the NBA last year- he can produce in the block is only 24 and in this league of overpaid Van Horns/Doleacs/ Foyle/Pyzibillas/Dampier (10 million a year for five more years and he is 32!!) – he is not a bad gamble especially because of his contract. Kurt Thomas AVERAGED 5 pts a game in 67 games last year for the suns and is 35 years old!! His numbers had the Knicks kept him were: 5.8mil, 6.6mil, 7.3mil, 8mil that contract runs 2004-2008. Sure he would have been off the cap – but at the same time – you have no upside and big men who can score in the post are rare- ask Dallas or Chicago!

    Although its early – we can agree so far that Lee and Robinson have improved quite a bit. I am sure that Isiah is a good enough judge of talent – perhaps he is keeping certain players out of the game for a reason. Like Balkman- all defense but couldn’t hit a 5-10 foot shot to save his own life. I went through the rest- the purpose of not keeping Nichols in my opinion is that he wants to put pressure on Collins/Balkman/ Randolph to get a consistent shot.

    Personally – I have seen the team improve quite a bit the last few games- definitely more energy, more defense and more passing. There are lapses- particularly with Curry and Crawford- but also Randolph/Lee/Robinson etc etc. But they are getting better or at the very least playing harder. So far – the last two games – they played well for 3 quarters – hopefully it will be 4 quarters soon.

    The teams strength is its depth- maybe no all stars but a bunch of good players. Marbury coming back to the form last year would have made a difference, Q Rich not shooting 30 percent would have made a difference – these two alone would have added 5 wins in my view- even if everything else was the same. I think Isiah is looking to build an all round team – sort of like Johan Cruyff’s total football team of Holland or like the Pacers would have been had the core of Tinsley/Artest/Miller/Harrington and Miller been kept intact. No doubt we would have lost atleast 10-15 games because Curry and Randolph and the team have yet to figure out how to play with each other – everyone knew that this may happen and it happens with other teams too – not jut the knicks.

    I just feel that everything is too focused on Isiah and although I know everyone keeps hearing next year – the same thing was said about the first place cowboys for a bunch of years as well and the chargers and the packers.

  42. jon abbey

    “The James/Jeffries does NOT count against the cap as per the Collective Bargaining agreement (mid-level exceptions-both of them- hence they don?t count against the cap).”

    you’re really misguided, my man. while a team over the cap is allowed a midcap signing each season, of course they count against the cap every year going forward, and in fact Jeffries’ albatross contract is one reason we’re in poor position in the summer of 2010, as he’ll still be on the books one more year (assuming he picks up his player option, ha ha).

  43. iyamwutiam

    Ben R:
    Go here please ttp://82games.com/ilardi1.htm- scroll to the table for the top adjusted +/- for NBA players where Kevin Garnett heads the list – note – ZBo – is the only Knick in the top 30 – above Rashard Lewis among other players.

    Where do you et this “his efg is lower than the average NBA player” stuff? Both his efg and ts are close to 50 percent which is pretty damn good in my book. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoza01.html

    As for Portland – Brandon Roy is the story there- no doubt – not aldridge, not outlaw, not anyone else. Yes- they have won 11 in a row and all – but dude they have been basically rebuilding since 2002. They have had 7 first round draft picks and I lived in portland fro 2004-2006 and i will tell you -you could get Blazer ticket ANY TIME. Like the night of the game- the place was empty- you think they got the number one pick because of the lottery?

  44. xduckshoex

    “Randolph is a 26 y/o guy who has great stroke from 20 feet in , is a consistent scorer and decent rebounder for less than 15 million a year – and who is basically averaging a double double for the last 4 years is not an atrocious investment. The reason is field goal percentage is not above 50 percent is because he shoots further away from the basket- unlike Lee who can barely shoot consistently at 5-10 feet. For all of you hating Randolph- as I said 18 pts/10 rebound/2 assists in 33 minutes. Yes he gives up some points on the other end – but who doesn?t? Name one power forward who is with the exception of Garnett and maybe -just maybe Duncan and Barkley. No one ever pretended to the fans that Randolph was a franchise player in the mold of Garnet/Duncan or Barkley.”

    It’s not just that he gives up points on the defensive end as well, it’s the way he plays on offense and the selfish attitude that kind of play stems from. Randolph is a ballstopper; when the ball is in his hands, it stops. That’s the kind of thing that kills an offense and makes everybody else on the team worse because it stifles offensive creativity and brings all movement to a halt. With a team like the Knicks, who suck anyway, it’s not as big a problem as it would be on a team that is actually good, but it is still a problem. I do not believe any big man who would rather take a contested 18 foot jumper than pass to an open teammate or stays rooted in good rebounding position instead of helping out on defense should be thought of as a good player.

  45. xduckshoex

    “Where do you et this ?his efg is lower than the average NBA player? stuff? Both his efg and ts are close to 50 percent which is pretty damn good in my book.”

    Your book is below average, then. The League average so far this year for eFG% is 51%, Randolph is significantly below that at 47%. If your “pretty damn good” isn’t even at the League average, maybe it’s time re-evaluate the way you rate players.

  46. Hey Knicks Fans

    Why is everyone so nasty to each other? Thomas, Dolan and Marbury’s influence seems to be infecting Knicks fans.

  47. oboogie

    iyawu,

    you are delusional in thinking our team has any upside. our whole team and organization is flawed. nobody is on our roster is infallible. there is no way jamal crawford will end up like billups. jared jeffries has not done a thing. you suggest balkman shouldnt play because he cant hit a shot, well lee and jeffries cannot hit a shot from outside 7 feet.

    you are correct that q/marbury/rose need to go. but anyone can figure that out after watching 5 knicks games.

    our only hope is to blow the team up to free the cap and sign lebron in 2010 or hit lottery gold (aka duncan, dwight howard, dwyane wade, lebron, etc).

  48. Ray

    Doesnt it seem like we keep talking about the same things on every post. Yet , the Knicks front office has not made any moves yet. Perhaps we are waiting on a impact player like Derrick Rose. We might not be losing enough though…we might end up getting OJ Mayo. Who knows…Isaiah’s two weeks are up.Thats what he asked that we give him and that time is up . Something needs to happen because I cant wait all the way til November next year to see if the Knicks have finally figured things out. Im watching the Boston game the otehr day and im hearing Hubie Brown and the other announcer talkng about how good it is to finally see Boston playing high caliber basketball again . To finally be mentioning the Celtics as one of the elite again. Im thinking that this season the samw was supposed to be said about the Knicks and here we are again waiting to see which college player might play well enough tha tthye might gain the opportunity to play in the mess that is now Madison Square Garden. I hate every game that I watch but I still watch because im a fan for life. I hope they do something soon…its not too late. We have no emotional connection to Z-Bo…so he can go. Our hopes for Marbury have died..he can go. Im willing to part with anyone excep our draft pick to bring the glory days back. Somebody give Jerry West a call. Hes the only one that can figure this mess out.

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