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Wednesday, November 26, 2014

Marbury a Signature Away From Being an Ex-Knick

According to multiple sources (who, let’s face it, are most likely all just quoting the same original source), the Knicks are a James Dolan signature away from waiving Stephon Marbury (with the only obstacle being Dolan’s perhaps unwillingness to pay Marbury $21 million to play for another team this year).

This is probably a better move than the fear of seeing Marbury traded for something other than expiring contracts, but it’s still going to be a bit of a pain if Marbury then ends up in Miami playing for a pretty good Miami team, all on the Knicks’ dime.

146 comments on “Marbury a Signature Away From Being an Ex-Knick

  1. DRed

    A pain to whom? James Dolan? Good. Marbury’s not a good player anymore and is a terrible presence in the locker room. He won’t even make Miami that much better. The sooner we’re rid of him the better.

  2. foliveri

    Let him go to Miami. Marbury is like a poison pill.

    Why would we fear another team getting him when he’s been a disease for the Knicks?
    I can’t wait to see Riley’s head explode after the 10th time Marbury blows a defensive coverage and pouts, then claims in a press conference that Wade gets the ball too much and he needs more shots.

    Good riddance.

  3. TDM

    Personally, I don’t like the idea of the proposed buyout. Marbs has been out here in LA running the hills all summer. According to some, he is in the best shape of his career – his bone spurs are gone and he has fully recovered from his surgery. Not to mention, this is a contract year – he’ll be motivated to prove everyone wrong. I like Duhon, but is there really a comparison between the two? I’d actually like to see Duhon at the point and Marbury at SG.

  4. b

    the move is fine, he isn’t part of our future, we don’t want to trade him for bad deals

    i’ll miss him though

    he’s in elite company as a player, one of only two players to average 19.7 ppg and 7.8 apg for his career, the other is magic johnson

  5. Z

    I will not miss Marbury; however, I do think he will sign on with another team and play well in a reduced role. Marbury will still be a distraction to the Knicks as his success elsewhere will be a more compelling story to the NY media than the lack of success of his old team.

    If we are keeping Randolph, we may as well keep Marbury for the year too. If you have gangrene, there’s no point in amputating your leg if the bacteria has already spread to your chest.

  6. TDM

    “he isn’t part of our future”

    Who is? The Knicks have a roster of players that fall into this category: Snacks, Q, Mardy, Rose, Zbo, Craw, Jeffries. . .

    The rumor is that Miami will pick him up. It would be strange to see Marion and Marbury back together again.

  7. Thomas B.

    I would not cut Marbury until I was sure that he could not be an asset to this team. Maybe I drank the Kool-Aid, but I think Marbury could/should redeem himself this year. He realizes this is his last chance to leave a positive mark in the Garden. Maybe he gets it right.

    Furthermore, this team is not exactly brimming with talent in the backcourt. Outside of Crawford and Robinson there is no player of note. Every Bulls fan (and North Carolina fan) I speak to has nothing but bad things to say about Duhon. Houston wont make the team-again. Collins…..the dots speak for themselves I think. Anthony Roberson, for those of you who don’t know, think of Allan Houston without the height (6’2 rather than 6’6) to get his shot off. I don’t see how you dump Marbury before he does something damaging. I think the fact that he is in shape and has kept a low profile is a close to contrite as you will get from him. I think he could help the team, if he has the right attitude. If he shows the wrong attitude, then boot him.

    But if we have to pay the guy either way, if he can help then you should get something for him. I’d rather have them cut James, Rose and Q. Those are the guys that seem to “hate” Marbury.

  8. TDM

    On a related note, why buy Marbury out? Why not just send him home if you don’t want him to affect team moral? At least that way we can solicit offers for his expiring deal. If nothing comes of it, the Knicks are no worse off than they are now.

  9. daaarn

    Assuming Marbury is in the best shape of his career and on his best behavior, I don’t really see how that helps us. With a new system and philosophy in place (wait till ’10), having Marbs showcase his stuff and potentially win us a couple more games actually hurts up this year as we wont have a pick in 2010. Plus, I dont think waiting and then trading him will really make much of a difference. Better to let our young guards play and learn once and for all whether they’re worth anything.

  10. Caleb

    why buy Marbury out? Why not just send him home if you don’t want him to affect team moral? At least that way we can solicit offers for his expiring deal. If nothing comes of it, the Knicks are no worse off than they are now.

    This was my point in the whole addition-by-subtraction debate. Why give up a potential asset?

    That said, the odds of finding a useful deal (2010 expiring contract plus a pick) are pretty low — so this move probably doesn’t matter one way or the other. At least we can stop talking about him.

    Gut-check time for the “addition by subtraction” folks. Do you really think Miami will get worse by signing him? Of course not – he’s got value for most teams in the league, including playoff teams. As long as the Knicks are footing the bill!

  11. JoeD

    Personally, I don’t like the idea of the proposed buyout. Marbs has been out here in LA running the hills all summer. According to some, he is in the best shape of his career – his bone spurs are gone and he has fully recovered from his surgery. Not to mention, this is a contract year – he’ll be motivated to prove everyone wrong. I like Duhon, but is there really a comparison between the two? I’d actually like to see Duhon at the point and Marbury at SG.

    Marbury in contract year means more selfishness. The team doesn’t respect him and they don’t like him.

  12. LH

    b- your stats are off… Oscar Robertson averaged 25.7 amd 9.5 assists per game for his career also. But these include their final years already. Marbury numbers are diminishing quickly. As they do, his numbers will qualify him better. Now, count the number of rings, mvp awards, and all star appearances the other players have… his numbers become meaningless.

    TDM– Q: why cut him now? A: For the roster spot

  13. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    Marbury will sign with Miami and have a nice year. He’ll torment the Knicks when he returns to the Garden. Everyone will talk about how he’s changed his personality, what a team player he is, and how dumb the Knicks are for paying him $20M to work for a (onetime) Eastern Rival.

    And that will be the last fuck you from Marbury to his hometown. Thanks Steph for not playing defense until your offense took a step back. Thanks Steph for not being able pass the ball into the low post. Thanks for screwing this franchise over with your $20M a year contract. Thanks Steph for embarrassing the team and the city with all the dumb things you’ve said.

    I wonder if you made a list of players with the highest ratio of “talent:screwing his team” where would Marbury lie? Probably somewhere between Jeff George and Derrick Coleman.

  14. Thomas B.

    Good point about sending him home. Yes, that eats a roster spot but that can easily be fixed by cutting James or Rose. Don’t pay him to help someone else. He may even be willing to a buy out if it will free him to sign with a playoff team.

  15. Z

    “At least we can stop talking about him.”

    If only this was so. If he signs with Miami, we’ll face him 4 times this season.

    If the Heat are good (which they will be), and he plays well (which he probably will on a new team with good players surrounding him and no contract for next year) that will make the Marbury story bigger in NY than the Knicks themselves.

    The conservative thing to do is to let him quietly sunset. I’m surprised Walsh is making a “win now” move.

    “Gut-check time for the “addition by subtraction” folks. Do you really think Miami will get worse by signing him?”

    One man’s trash is another man’s treasure…

  16. Z

    “And that will be the last fuck you from Marbury to his hometown…”

    Well– technically there will be one more. The 2010 unprotected first round pick.

  17. Thomas B.

    Assuming Marbury is in the best shape of his career and on his best behavior, I don’t really see how that helps us. With a new system and philosophy in place (wait till ‘10), having Marbs showcase his stuff and potentially win us a couple more games actually hurts up this year as we wont have a pick in 2010. Plus, I dont think waiting and then trading him will really make much of a difference. Better to let our young guards play and learn once and for all whether they’re worth anything.

    I disagree somewhat. I think that it might be helpful to have the Knicks do well this year and if they have a pick outside of the top 12, they should just give that pick to Utah now. Then they hold the 2011 pick free and clear again. I would rather give Utah the 12th pick now then give the a chance at picks 1-? in 2011. So if Marbury helps the team move from 9th to 13th, thats a good thing. So just in case things go the hell in 2010, we at least own our draft pick free and clear.

    Also Mike K., none of us is happy about Marbury’s behaviors, but he did get that contract before he came to NY. So while he did not give the Knicks everything they should have recieved in terms of play, he did not screw them on the contract. I think the Nets are responsible for that. The Nets and Isiah and Dolan. Now Jerome James, he screwed the Knicks. Ditto Jared, at least so far. If Marbs screwed the Knicks, then so did:

    Shandon Anderson
    Allan Houston
    Glen Rice
    Moochie Norris
    Clarence Weatherspoon
    Vin Baker
    Q. Rich
    Anfernee Hardaway

    Anyway, I think while justified, you were a bit unfair on the contract issue. Behavior and production fair game, but he did not trick the Knicks into that contract.

  18. Thomas B.

    “And that will be the last fuck you from Marbury to his hometown…”
    Well– technically there will be one more. The 2010 unprotected first round pick.

    Blame that one on Isiah.

  19. TDM

    On the Zbo front, I proposed a trade earlier of Zbo to Sacto for Brad Miller and Shareef. I just read that Shareef took a medical retirement today.

    I have three thoughts in that regard:

    1. Damn. Zbo for Miller and a medical retirement would have been sweet.

    2. Looks like NJ’s medical staff got it right when they took a pass on SAR.

    3. Hey, Big Snacks – any chance you may do the right thing and follow suit???

  20. Dan Panorama

    The only reason to fear trading Marbury is that somehow another KG could go on the market and force us to reconsider our 2010 plan. If through some crazy set of circumstances a Top 5 player had to be traded NOW, Marbury’s contract would look great.

    That being said, I don’t think that’s too likely and probably it’s safer to get rid of him now rather than risk a non-franchise but still talented player coming onto the trade market and prodding us into another terrible cap-killing trade (ala…Marbury).

    I have no problem with Marbury succeeding elsewhere, in fact I wish him well. I personally don’t think that will happen, though. His problems will be the same anywhere: ego, lack of defense, lack of team chemistry. And even if he does succeed, the only way a player can “burn” you is if he has something to burn. The Knicks are not a playoff team next year. It doesn’t matter if Marbury drops 30 on us a couple of times next year. It will all be forgotten within a few days or weeks and we’ll be focused again on whatever story actually concerns the current Knicks. Just because another team benefits from our dumping Marbury doesn’t mean we don’t as well. We lose a team cancer, a coach-killer, and free up hundreds of minutes for the young players that will actually be in the NBA in two seasons and not with Milan or Moscow.

  21. James

    To be honest I’d love it if Marbury signed with Miami. Looking forward to seeing Nate vs Stephon 4 times a year…

    And who cares if it’s a rival – it’s not like we’re competing next year anyway.

    Good luck to him. Is Miami such an obvious candidate? Do they really want Marbury hanging out with rookie camp angel Michael Beasley?

  22. Jerome James, the other King James

    I just read that Shareef took a medical retirement today.
    Hey, Big Snacks – any chance you may do the right thing and follow suit???

    TDM,

    I am in the middle of an important phone call but I just wanted to tell you; no, there is no chance that I will do the same. I have been working out with Stephon this summer, and I am in the best shape of my life. Hold on a sec, (into the phone) Yes, two meat lovers and two with extra cheese. Just put in on my account, you know the address. Thirty minutes? Yeah well it better be.

    Okay, I’m back. My knee is strong and I am ready to contribute to the D’antoni offense. In fact, I think I fit perfectly with the offense. I would be great on the fast break because I would never run back on D, I would just wait under our basket for the rest of the team to get back. Hey, can they call an offensive three second on you when your team does not have the ball?

    Anyway, I would think you stat nerds here at Knickerblogger.net would show me more respect. Did you see the numbers I put up last season? My PER was off the charts at 45.86. Per 40 stats are great as well. And Mike K always says Per 40 numbers are a great indicator of how a player will play without regard to the number of minutes played. Yeah so, my 32 ppg per 40 and 34 rebounds a game per 40 mean that I am ready to dominate this game. Not since my last weight in has anyone seen numbers that high.

    So show me some respect damn it!

  23. Owen

    I don’t know what possessed me to click on the link under the other King James’ name, but I am glad I did….

  24. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    Yeah I meant that his ginormous contract screwed us all that time, much like Houston’s. Oh wait we gave Allan that contract, so that isn’t a good comparison.

    Much like Zach Randolph’s then. That seems a better fit, especially considering Randolph doesn’t give any effort defensively, just like Steph. I guess Zach will start playing defense around 2011 when he’s turning 30 years old. You think he’ll be on his 4th team at that time as well?

  25. Thomas B.

    Yeah I meant that his ginormous contract screwed us all that time, much like Houston’s. Oh wait we gave Allan that contract, so that isn’t a good comparison.
    Much like Zach Randolph’s then. That seems a better fit, especially considering Randolph doesn’t give any effort defensively, just like Steph. I guess Zach will start playing defense around 2011 when he’s turning 30 years old. You think he’ll be on his 4th team at that time as well?

    4th by 2011? I don’t know. I hope he is on his 3rd by the end of 2008.

  26. TDM

    I don’t know what possessed me to click on the link under the other King James’ name, but I am glad I did….

    Dude, I am crying here.. . . Too funny. Props to JJTOKJ.

  27. Hooped Up

    I am convinced that the GM office of the New York Knicks is filled with Mercury based products everywhere. How else could the crazy GM’s moves since the dreaded Layden era be explained.

    I still think we keep Marbury till at least mid-season, and hope somebody bits on a deadline deal. Or just let the contract come off the books at the end of the year. Why pay him to play somewhere else?

    If the Lakers can get Pau Gasol for nothing, anything is possible.

  28. daaarn

    The problem I have with keeping Marbury in the hopes of trading him is that it’s sorta counterproductive. Anyone we can salary-match trade 1-for-1 is either over the hill or about to hit their decline, and most of them still have multiple years left on their contracts. If we traded for multiple parts, that’ll force us to cut a couple of our players, and I believe those would be our younger guys since it seems like Walsh would rather hang on to the more valuable contracts of the slouches on the bench for future trades. Either way, I believe we’d just be taking on more contracts for nothing. The goal of 2010 is two-fold: There’s the obvious run at LeBron and the other free agents, but even if we don’t sign somebody, it still gets us under the cap. We don’t need anymore knee-jerk signings for players that may only help us out for a year or two.

  29. Italian Stallion

    On a related note, why buy Marbury out? Why not just send him home if you don’t want him to affect team moral? At least that way we can solicit offers for his expiring deal. If nothing comes of it, the Knicks are no worse off than they are now.

    That would be the “intellectutally correct” move, but IMO not a very good way to do business. Keeping someone at home when he’s fully capable of playing and potentially hurting his career badly will not be received well by other players, the league, and perhaps even the player’s union.

  30. bernardking

    Im assuming that the size of his contract, albeit expiring, makes moving him for a draft pick to be still nearly impossible. nobody is going to give up a top draft pick for Marbury and few would take on a $20 million contract and also give up a top draft pick.

    So basically they would have to eat other contracts in return with players they dont need.

    So the best solution is to cut him and negotiate a buyout for perhaps 70 cents on the dollar. would actually save the team money since they wont have to take contracts back in return.

    also this frees up a spot for a young player (PEJ?) and doesnt creat a lame duck, horrible locker room presence.

    All good reasons I think. Im sure if they thought they could get a top pick for his expiring contract they would keep him for a bit (or would already have dealt him).

  31. TDM

    I keep check back with the Knick’s website to see if reference to Marbs are disappearing. I noticed a few months back they deleted his image from the scrolling images at the top of the page (currently, its only Craw, N8, and DLee).

    Also, they have pulled any photos of Marbs on the Knicks photo gallery 2008/2009 page:
    http://www.nba.com/knicks/multimedia/photogallery.html

    On this page [http://www.nba.com/knicks/community/]under “Recent Community News” in a column on the right, they indicate that “Marbury Donates to Brooklyn Pubic Library.” I guess that’s where they keep the interns now. . .

    That said, they still haven’t pulled Marbury’s jerseys from the store. So, get ‘em while their hot:
    http://newyorkknicks.shop.sportstoday.com/Dept.aspx?cp=1042_4643

  32. Captain Merlin

    ESPN’s now reporting that Donnie Walsh says Marbs’ll actually be at camp–whether or not that means anything, I don’t know. He also went on to say that good old Allan Houston will also be around during camp for another of those meaningless tryouts/revitalization attempts. I can see Michael Ray making it back to the team quicker than Houston. Grand hyperbole.

  33. Brendan

    Oops no fail, Marbury is the infection which never clears up: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3605502

    Let me ask: has there been any Knicks roster move this offseason that hasn’t been accompanied by widespread denials, multiple mutually exclusive stories, game-playing in and with the press, and vague irritation from Walsh? Somehow, when he came on board, I was hoping for more than inertia and opaque grumpiness.

    Frustrated? Me? Why do you say so….

  34. Thomas B.

    Oops no fail, Marbury is the infection which never clears up: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3605502
    Let me ask: has there been any Knicks roster move this offseason that hasn’t been accompanied by widespread denials, multiple mutually exclusive stories, game-playing in and with the press, and vague irritation from Walsh? Somehow, when he came on board, I was hoping for more than inertia and opaque grumpiness.
    Frustrated? Me? Why do you say so….

    phooey, beat me to the punch. I knew two things:
    1. Newsday will make up anything.
    2. Donnie has enough sense not to throw away the only former All-Star on the team.

  35. Thomas B.
    I don’t know what possessed me to click on the link under the other King James’ name, but I am glad I did….

    Dude, I am crying here.. . . Too funny. Props to JJTOKJ.

    “Two meat lovers and two with extra cheese.” And the weblink, classic. I damn near laughed a hole in myself. Long live the other King James.

  36. Knicks

    All Hahn’s response as to why you can’t just have him sit at home:

    “That’s not how you do business, but I feel you. I think the union would step in on that one.”

  37. jon abbey

    the union wouldn’t (couldn’t) step in, NY did the same thing with Steve Francis and the Bulls did the same thing with Tim Thomas. if the team is paying the salary, they can do what they want with him, I’m pretty sure.

    I’m not really sure what to do with Marbury. I’d be OK with releasing him unless he really is decidedly healthier and better, but I find that pretty hard to believe. what I don’t like is what a few other people just said, the lack of decision-making either way by Walsh. if you want him to come to camp, say so publicly and stop all this speculation. the Walsh era gets about a D so far in my book.

  38. Ray

    Steph is not Jason kid…he can still run the point. Miami would be something to watch is he goes over there because at point guard he would be a upgrade over anything they have in place right now. D-Wade is a clear leader and Marbury will fall in place. I still wish we could get something in return in a trade for him.

  39. Captain Merlin

    I happened to click onto the poster ‘stephon marbury”s link and was greeted by the Starbury line’s homepage. On the opening page a huge banner told me that all footwear was $8.98…I thought it was $15 a pair? Does this reflect an even poorer quality of shoe or just hard times for the clan o’ Marbury. Trying times.

  40. Thomas B.

    I happened to click onto the poster ’stephon marbury’’s link and was greeted by the Starbury line’s homepage. On the opening page a huge banner told me that all footwear was $8.98…I thought it was $15 a pair? Does this reflect an even poorer quality of shoe or just hard times for the clan o’ Marbury. Trying times.

    No it is not a reflection on poorer shoe quality. Starbury had partnered with Steve and Barry’s, which filed for Chapter 11 8 weeks ago. The bankruptcy filing triggered a clause in the partnership deal that released Starbury from the contract. Marbury is now free to sell the shoes without Steve and Barry’s markup of about 8 dollars a shoe.

    There was a report done when the shoe debuted, which was featured on HBO’s real sports. If I recall, the per unit cost of the shoe was about 3 dollars, compared to a 7 dollar per unit cost for the average shoe from Nike. Marbury gets 2 dollars for ever shoe sold. The additional profit went to Steve and Barry’s as the official distributors. The report did a side by side comparision with the average shoe from Nike and found that while Nike’s materials were more durable, the Starbury’s represented a significantly better value for the money. With the Starybury 1 selling for 15 dollars and the Nike retailing for 89 dollars, the difference in material did not justify the expense.

  41. Z

    “They’re going to pay me all my money, not a penny less. If they want to waive me and pay me all my money, fine… I don’t want to be in a place I’m not wanted.” -Stephon Marbury, 9/23/08

    So where exactly do you want to be, Steph?

  42. Italian Stallion

    Why is it that Houston keeps coming back? Of the former Knick guards that could probably still help this team, you’d think Sprewell could contribute more. He walked away from the game on his own accord, not because of injury. And unlike Mr. $100M, Sprewell needs the money.

    Wow, it sounds like he’s really broke. Those aren’t exactly huge mortgage payments he’s can’t make. You really have to wonder how he could have blown that much money. Not only that, it must have happened quickly because if he was having a diffcult time a few years ago, he would have taken the 7M for 3 years regardless of any bruised ego issues.

  43. Italian Stallion

    Newsday is reporting that Marbury is refusing any buyout unless he gets paid in full. Supposedly, 75% is the standard, but Marbury can’t make back enough if he goes somewhere else to make up the difference. Actually, I don’t blame Marbury for wanting evey dollar due him, but I can’t believe what an albatross this guy is.

  44. David Crockett

    Wow, it sounds like he’s really broke. Those aren’t exactly huge mortgage payments he’s can’t make. You really have to wonder how he could have blown that much money. Not only that, it must have happened quickly because if he was having a diffcult time a few years ago, he would have taken the 7M for 3 years regardless of any bruised ego issues.

    That is a lot of money to go through, but lifestyle often expands faster than income–no matter the level of income. I recall speaking with Mark West (the former NBA center for Pho and Ind, among other teams) several years ago when he was VP of the NBAPA. It was a HUGE issue for the PA and fueled a lot of the resentment many vets had for younger players coming into the league on inflated rookie deals.

  45. ess-dog

    “They’re going to pay me all my money, not a penny less. If they want to waive me and pay me all my money, fine… I don’t want to be in a place I’m not wanted.” -Stephon Marbury, 9/23/08

    Wow, it actually could get uglier just when it looked like things were getting better. Maybe Donnie is just waiting til one day before the season to dump him, so teams will be less likely to pick him up?
    I never thought I’d be coveting the Pacers and the Bucks lineups, but here we are… I’m so depressed. I’m going to go get a milkshake.

  46. Italian Stallion

    This really is getting depressing.

    Our only additions are Duhon, Roberson, and Gallinari.

    The first is probably not as good as Marbury (the man he is replacing).

    The second may have been signed prematurely, is a little banged up, and probably won’t play much anyway.

    The third is banged up and we really have no idea how much he can contribute or how good he’ll be.

    We set out to get rid of Marbury, Randolph, James, and perhaps another bad contract or two and instead we only got rid of Balkman – one of the handful of guys we really didn’t mind having.

  47. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    So what would you do if you were Walsh & Marbury wanted every cent? To me the choice is simple, give him a chance to be a stand up citizen and send him home the minute he becomes any kind of distraction. I’m guessing that there’s a little give & take in these kinds of negotiations, and Marbury’s refusal to play ball shows a lack of respect towards Walsh. From the Knicks’ perspective it be an outward sign of weakness to let Marbury walk all over them like that.

    So, they’re going to take the highroad and give him every chance to contribute to this team. And at the first mess-up they will send him home packing and let his sit there & ponder his life. If Marbury takes the year off, he’ll hurt his value for his next contract because other teams will still view him as so selfish that he’s willing to sit at home for a few measly bucks. So after a few weeks at home, Marbury might feel pressured to make a deal and return to the league.

    Either way the Knicks win.

  48. Thomas B.

    I agree with Mike K. Bring steph in, let him play, sit him if he becomes a distraction. This is Marbury’s last big contract in the NBA. If he wants to see anything in excess of the vet’s minimum again, he has to play well this year. So it is in his best interest to play well. If there is one thing we know about Marbury it is that he cares very much about what makes him happy. The guy has been a great philantropist, generous and kind to those most in need. He treats his peers and superiors like crap. But through it all he acts in his own interest. It is in his best interest to take advantage of the D’antoni system that is his best chance to play in the high speed, wide-open offensive style that best suits his skillset. So he needs the Knicks.

    The Knicks need Marbury as well. He is the only thing close to a point on this team. Trust me guys, you might like Duhon on D, he looks okay on the break, but watch him run a half court set-one word: lost. He is not strong going to the basket and not great at passing on the drive. He is a servicable back up. We all know Nate is a great player in the role of 2nd unit scoring. He is best suited for a microwave Johnson role, or the 6th man role Starks played after Houston and LJ came to town. Plus if a team holds another Gasol type fire sale, the Knicks have a great chip in Marbury’s contract. 21 million in cap space to rid you of your headache and get your rebuilding off to a good start. And you only have to deal with him for a few months. Plus holding on keeps him from helping another team, though that seems the least important reason. I mean does anyone actually think Marbury will go to Miami and defeat us in the first round? Hell we wont even be in contention so who cares what playoff team he helps?

    This is the classic situation where each side hates the other but they need each other. I say Donnie should wait this out the same way he has with the Randolph situation. In time the solution will present itself.

  49. Captain Merlin

    tI agree with the Mike K and Thomas B train of thought. Keep him, ride it out, maybe get lucky and either he shows slight competence or a situation comes up that allows us to dump him off for cap relief. We are already committed to doing the same with Zbo, so it’s not exactly like having another douchebaggy schizoid disruptive personality around would be so much more detrimental than just the one. Also, in keeping Zbo through the summer, Walsh set a precedent that he is going to hang on to those sorts of players until he can get something of worth, so dumping Marbury now would be utter hypocrisy. I cannot tolerate a lot of things from recent Knicks management, but blatant hypocrisy has to be the one I most intolerable of, so it would be nice to see him avoid that. If worst comes to worst, they can always cut him at after all the other options have fallen through, just to open up a roster spot for the all important “stretch run” this year. HA…stretch run.

  50. Luke

    Its pretty funny when people mention Marburys fitness as a reason he will do better on a team enough to give us pause when its never his physical health thats been questioned but his mental health.

    It reminds me of Steve Francis who when he lost his mental edge at a even younger age than Marbury never could recover it and teams no longer catered to Franchise.

    At his age without having played a full season in what ? 3-4 years for mostly mental reasons I dont see him ever getting back to anywhere near his former level.I see him after a few weeks into the season and realizing that he is just another one of the guys and being treated as so that he will realize he never really liked being apart of a team anyway and wilt away just like Francis did in Houston

  51. daaarn

    When everyone’s saying a “Gasol-type firesale player,” who all do you have in mind? I’m not questioning the rationale of hoping for that situation. I’m just legitimately curious about who you all think could potentially hit the market mid-season that’s not only good, but still young enough to ride thru our reconstruction years and still have something left in the tank when we hopefully rise up again?

  52. Thomas B.

    When everyone’s saying a “Gasol-type firesale player,” who all do you have in mind? I’m not questioning the rationale of hoping for that situation. I’m just legitimately curious about who you all think could potentially hit the market mid-season that’s not only good, but still young enough to ride thru our reconstruction years and still have something left in the tank when we hopefully rise up again?

    Stop inserting logic into my hopes and dreams!

  53. Knicks

    “the union wouldn’t (couldn’t) step in, NY did the same thing with Steve Francis and the Bulls did the same thing with Tim Thomas. if the team is paying the salary, they can do what they want with him, I’m pretty sure.”

    Thomas and Francis had injuries. According to Newsday, if Marbury is healthy they can’t just do whatever they want with him.

    “The Knicks have to be careful with this strategy, however, because union president Billy Hunter could get involved as he did last season when Isiah Thomas banned Marbury from the Garden. Marbury must be allowed to participate in practice if he is healthy.”

  54. jon abbey

    pretty sure Thomas didn’t have an injury, and I don’t think Francis’ was real either. I don’t think it’s as clear-cut as that Newsday quote makes it seem.

  55. Brian Cronin

    The difference is Thomas and Francis weren’t fighting their situations – both guys were fine with sitting out the season, Marbury likely is not.

  56. Ted Nelson

    I think they had to at least wait until training camp. If nothing else, cutting Marbury would completely undercut the “everyone has a fresh slate” message. See if he earns a spot in training camp; not only based on talent/ conditioning, but also on attitude.

    “I’m surprised Walsh is making a “win now” move.”

    I’m not… he signed a “win-now” coach, he drafted a “win-now” player, and he made a “win-now” MLE signing.

    I really think he feels the Knicks are some leadership away from being a decent (borderline playoff) Eastern Conference team. Given a) the state of the Eastern Conference and b) the Knicks’ brief moment of success in 06-07 it’s not a crazy idea, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

    re: the Walsh era, and the perceived indecision

    Most of the media messes have come on deals that never happen: Randolph 1 and 2, and Marbury. The deals Walsh has made have been pretty straight forward and usually happen within a reasonable timeframe of when the rumors hit the press: played it straight on draft night, the Duhon signing, the Roberson signing, and the Balkman deal.
    Where he’s really lacking seems to be the PR department. He has tons of experience, but NYC isn’t Indianapolis. He seems to be taking an “ignore the rumors” tact, we’ll see how it works out. If the Knicks win more than 30 games next year I think he’ll buy himself some time to produce wins, and if they win more than 40 he can ignore the rumors/media all he wants.

  57. mase

    “I’m not… he signed a “win-now” coach, he drafted a “win-now” player, and he made a “win-now” MLE signing. ”

    not sure about this quote: highly doubtful D’Antoni had any plans to “win-now” with this team; we drafted for the future and drafted well; the MLE was for a steady hand to replace Marbury

  58. Captain Merlin

    Yeah, not so sure if Gallo’s a win now sort of player…unless it’s the other player we picked up who was drafted by a team this year–in which case I completely agree, PEjr is the definition of a win now player. Snark

  59. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    “the union wouldn’t (couldn’t) step in, NY did the same thing with Steve Francis and the Bulls did the same thing with Tim Thomas. if the team is paying the salary, they can do what they want with him, I’m pretty sure.”

    Thomas and Francis had injuries. According to Newsday, if Marbury is healthy they can’t just do whatever they want with him.

    “The Knicks have to be careful with this strategy, however, because union president Billy Hunter could get involved as he did last season when Isiah Thomas banned Marbury from the Garden. Marbury must be allowed to participate in practice if he is healthy.”

    Well I think you can get creative here, but you need a good coach. Tell D’Antoni to put (and keep) Marbury third/fourth on the point guard chart, and pull the star treatment rug out from under him. Either Marbury takes it in stride & plays good soldier, or he acts out. When he acts out – fine/suspend him for insubordination, and after 2-3 times send him home for good.

    At that point the union will want to step in, the team will show their case on how he’s being detrimental to the team. At that point the union might advice Steph to be reasonable and take a deal. If Steph still is resistant, there’s probably not much even the union can do.

    I imagine you can make an analogy with the business world. Just substitute the team for management at a large company, Stephon with your typical bad/petulant worker, and the union with human resources. In the cases I’ve seen either the worker shapes up, quits, or gets fired. Usually human resources (aka the union) is on the worker’s side, until the worker becomes an unreasonable participant in the negotiations. I would imagine the NBA union is in a similar predicament.

  60. Ted Nelson

    Mase,

    I say that those moves are win now for the following reasons:

    1. D’Antoni:
    A. Walsh could have hired a coach known for developing young talent, but instead hired a coach who has publically said that it’s not his job
    B. Walsh could have hired a coach known for losing if he truly wanted to get a good draft pick more than win
    C. At a press conference before the draft D’Antoni said something to the effect of “we better make this pick count because it’s the last time we’ll be in the lottery for a long time.” Maybe optimistic, but I don’t know if he’d raise public expectations like that if he planned to lose a lot of games. He could have simply said: “we’re going to do our best to add a piece that helps us moving forward.”

    2. Danilo: He’s young and transitioning from the European game, so he might not light the league on fire as a rook (if ever) and the pick is clearly a long-term acquisition. However, he was probably the only guy available at #6 who can say he was the best player in a proffessional league last season. I would have seen an Anthony Randolph, Joe Alexander, Jason Thompson, or JaVale McGee as much more of a “project” for a rebuilding team at #6. By itself it’s hard to call drafting what you consider to be the best player available as a “win-now” move, but taken with the other moves I think it paints a picture of a team that’s at least not trying to lose now: they realize they’re not contending for a title, but are probably more concerned with the playoffs than draft position.

    3. Duhon: Just using the MLE qualifies as a “win-now” move in my book. If you want to lose games and get a good draft pick you give minutes to Mardy Collins instead of signing a decent PG.

    A possible #4 could be the Randolph LAC deal, depending on whether they demanded a 1st.

    I’m not saying he expects to contend this season, but I think he wants to gradually improve the team and raise the trade value of his assets. You have to figure that this team is capable of winning 30+ games easily, given that a similar team did so the season before last.

  61. Ted Nelson

    Mike,

    If you’re trying to be the “anti-Isiah” / clean up the organization, do you really want to resort to tactics like that? I think you either give the guy a fair shot or you tell him to leave.

  62. Thomas B.

    “I’m not… he signed a “win-now” coach, he drafted a “win-now” player, and he made a “win-now” MLE signing.” -Ted Nelson

    Huh? D’antoni is a win now coach? Maybe I don’t understand what a win now coach is, because I don’t think of him as a win-now coach. He is a good caoch who has had some instant success. I dont think that makes him a win now coach. He wasnt win now in Denver. And to be perfectly honest, what has he won?

    Drafted a win-now player. What does that even mean? DG is a 19 year old import. How is he a win-now player. Is there something he brings to the Knicks this year that Gordon, Bayless, Hibbert, ect could not. I actuallu think of Bayless as a win-now player because he fills an immediate need, DG does not. DG is a piece you grow and cultivate over the next few seasons. Who thinks DG was the most NBA ready player available when the Knicks got to pick?

    A win-now MLE signing. Okay, maybe you are being sarcastic. I get it. Yeah, you must be joking because there is no way the Duhon is a win now player. Maybe in bizzaro land he is, or some other alternate universe where Jordan and Barkley and are the top golfers in the world, and Bush is actually a competent Pres. Duhon is not a win now move, it is insurance against Marbury.

    For any move to be called a win now move, they have to give at least the slightest impression of making the team a winner. None of the moves do that. More like win soon, but not win-now.

  63. Ted Nelson

    By tell him to leave I meant pay him his money and let him go to Miami. Only if a) he’s not helping the team and/or b) the trade deadline passes. (Not that I’m expecting a good deal to come along, but you never know.)

  64. Thomas B.

    “3. Duhon: Just using the MLE qualifies as a “win-now” move in my book. If you want to lose games and get a good draft pick you give minutes to Mardy Collins instead of signing a decent PG.”-Ted Nelson

    I can refute that statement with one letter. That is the letter J, as in Jerome James, and Jared Jeffries. Both MLE signings, niether win now moves. Using the MLE is not a win now move. For some teams its a bad move, but in the Knicks case it was just a “not-lose-so-much-right-now” move. Duhon aint built for the D’antoni style, how can that be a win-now move? I’m sorry if I’m being harsh, but I really do not get it.

  65. Ted Nelson

    Thomas,

    I assume you didn’t see my response to Mase, but I’ll respond to your general point:

    What’s the opposite of “win-now?” I would say lose-now and fight with Seattle, Memphis, etc. for lottery position. The Knicks very well might be doing that in a few months anyway, but I think Walsh did everything he could to make the team competitive immediately, while obviously prioritizing the long-term state of the franchise. He could have traded some of his better and more movable players–Lee, Crawford, Nate–for a draft pick/ to move up in the draft/ for cap space and a future pick, but he held on to them (except Balkman, who I feel confident he didn’t think was one of his better players).

    “Duhon is not a win now move, it is insurance against Marbury.”

    If you don’t want to win, then you have no use for an insurance policy. A PG combo of Collins/Roberson would have done fine if the Knicks were more interested in the lottery than the playoffs.

  66. Ted Nelson

    Thomas,

    A not lose too much right now move???????????????? Either you’re trying to win as many basketball games as you can or you’re trying to get a high draft pick. If you don’t care at all about your win total this year or next than Duhon instead of Collins/whoever was a complete waste of $12 mill. I honestly believe that Isiah thought Jerome was the Knicks’ starting center and Jared was their defensive specialist, he was very wrong but the moves were made in a win-now spirit.
    The Knicks aren’t realistically trying to win a championship right now, but they’re also not trying to lose. As I said, D’Antoni said this will be the last time the Knicks are in the lottery for a while. It might not play out that way, but I don’t think he would have said that if the Knicks were tanking. Why set expectations high and make yourself the scapegoat when you fail?
    They might not win, but I get every indication that they’re going to try. Which I think they should.

  67. mase

    ted,
    you cant seriously expect a professional basketball team from NY to try and lose an entire season just to get lottery position, thats ridiculous.

    besides, wouldnt our players have better value if we were winning?

  68. Z

    “I seriously doubt Ted Nelson’s basketball knowledge.”

    Check the past 18 months of archived posts and then comment on Ted’s basketball knowledge.

    The win now debate is a good one. NY has always thought they could rebuild and stay competitive at the same time and that thinking is what led us into the depression the Knick franchise has been in for the past 8 years. At some point it’s best just to let it bleed. I thought Walsh would do that, and Ted is right– he hasn’t.

  69. Ted Nelson

    Mase,

    While I don’t see why a team couldn’t try to lose in NY (last season’s Knicks seemed to as did the LB Knicks, and the Jets and Mets both seemed to try for years), this is my point: they’re trying to win, so why is it suprising that Walsh made a “win-now” move?

    I see all his other moves as attempts to win now as well (except the Balkman move, which was a “stupid-now” move in my opinion). How many games the Knicks actually win, I have no idea. I mean Isiah was more so in “win-now” move, but unless his definition of “win-now” was getting swept in the playoffs his first season and then getting stuck in the lottery it never happened. I would say Donnie is taking a more reasonable long-term approach than Isiah did, but compared to most execs who take over a 23 win team he’s been fairly win now.

  70. Ted Nelson

    Z,

    Thanks, I appreciate it.

    I am holding out hope that Walsh will execute a lot better than Isiah. He seems to be trying to let it bleed while injecting some talent/leadership. I can’t think of any good analogies as far as letting it bleed, but Isiah took on longer contracts and gave away picks which I’m glad to see Donnie hasn’t done. One thing Walsh definitely has displayed is patience.

  71. Italian Stallion

    Guys,

    Right from the start Walsh said the goal was to be competitive right away while addressing the 2010 salary cap issues and trying to build for the long term.

    I took that as meaning he would try to get rid of the bad contracts and bring in players that could improve the team without giving them long term contracts. I think he is doing exactly what he said he would do.

    We can debate whether he’s doing a good job of it (he hasn’t gotten rid of Marbury, James, Randolph etc… yet), but he’s following the script.

    IS

  72. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    Ted

    I’d disagree with Walsh being a “win-now” guy. Is taking Gallinari a win-now move? Clearly not. He could have gone with Gordon or Augustin or Alexander – which would have been more of a “win-now” move.

    How about Duhon or Roberson? A PG that can only defend and an undersized D-league guard? Patrick Ewing Jr. for Balkman?

    As for D’Antoni, I think Walsh is having it both ways. Without the right horses, D’Antoni’s offense will flounder, and the defense will be putrid. Is there any notion that the Knicks win more than 30 games next year? However if the Knicks are good 2-3 years from now D’Antoni will be the right fit for them.

    Here’s how I see it. This isn’t a video game where you can trot out Collins, Jeffies, Jerome James, and 2 D-Leaguers for 40 minute a game and guarantee a top 4 pick. The front office can’t say “Fuck this year. We’re going to suck big time. I wouldn’t even bother buying tickets or watching a Knick game for another year.” You just can’t do that.

    However you can make small moves that won’t put you over 30 wins, but gives your team a bit more respectability in the long term. The Knicks need to show that they’re not trying to “lose-now” just enough so that they don’t win now. And build slowly but steadily.

  73. mase

    “However you can make small moves that won’t put you over 30 wins, but gives your team a bit more respectability in the long term. The Knicks need to show that they’re not trying to “lose-now” just enough so that they don’t win now. And build slowly but steadily.”

    …as if they want to just win 30 games?
    i think they want to win as many games as possible without hurting the future. in other words if we could go to the playoffs without adding more to the cap we would do it in a minute.

  74. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    “However you can make small moves that won’t put you over 30 wins, but gives your team a bit more respectability in the long term. The Knicks need to show that they’re not trying to “lose-now” just enough so that they don’t win now. And build slowly but steadily.”

    …as if they want to just win 30 games?
    i think they want to win as many games as possible without hurting the future. in other words if we could go to the playoffs without adding more to the cap we would do it in a minute.

    I think any team would do this (“Hello – you play to win the game!” – H. Edwards). However I think the Knicks are in a situation that they’re unable to win 40 games. I really think they’re going to have to be lucky to win 30. And I think Walsh has that in mind with the moves he’s making. Hence why I don’t see his moves as “win-now”.

  75. Thomas B.

    “If you don’t want to win, then you have no use for an insurance policy. A PG combo of Collins/Roberson would have done fine if the Knicks were more interested in the lottery than the playoffs.” -Ted Nelson

    I guess where you I disagree is with the concept of a grey area. See I think there is something between win-now, and tank the season to get the best pick. I think the Knicks are not in win now mode, clearly they can’t win a title now. What they can do is not suck so much right now and not be a total laughing stock. I mean Miami was horrid last year, Ditto the soncis, but their struggles rarely led off PTI.

    I Walsh has made mostly, “this is the best i can make us this season moves.” That is someplace between the playoffs, and a 23 win season.

    D’antoni does not need to win-now. He needs to not be Isiah.
    Duhon does not need to win-now. He needs to not be Marbury.
    Gallanari…not be Balkman, I guess.

  76. Thomas B.

    Win-now? I seriously doubt Ted Nelson’s basketball knowledge.

    For the record, while I do disagree with Ted on his “win-now” position, he is very knowledgeable in matters of basketball.

  77. Italian Stallion

    I’m still not sure I even understand this debate. As I said earlier Walsh made his intentions very clear. He is doing eveything possible to make the team better NOW, but is not willing to sacrifice the long term or salary cap for 2010 in order to accomplish that.

    So yes, he IS trying to win NOW! But the Knicks are so far away from winning it all, there is no possible transaction or set of transactions that could put the Knicks over the top. So he’s not going to commit suicide to make us better this year (NOW).

    Sometimes it makes sense to sacrifice the long term because you are one player away from a shot of winning it all. That’s the typical set of circumstances that goes along with the phrase “trying to win now”. That’s not the case here. However, there is no doubt at all that he has no intention of dumping this season to get a better pick. He’s doing what he can to make us better this year and would probably be thrilled if we made the playoffs.

  78. Ted Nelson

    IS,

    Exactly.

    Mike,

    Gallinari:

    I can see the Gallinari point (you take the best player on the board in your estimation if you want to win ever). It’s the least “win-now” of the 3 moves I mentioned, but I think it was somewhat win now taken in the context of his other moves: As I don’t really like Gordon as a prospect I don’t think taking him is at all a “win-now” move, he couldn’t even play an entire college season at a high level and has only one NBA skill (scoring). Alexander I would call one of the bigger “projects” of the lottery: his skills are raw, but his athleticism is off the charts. It’s questionable whether Augustin’s game will translate. By the day of the draft, Bayless was the only name besides Gallinari I really would have been comfortable hearing (maybe Brook Lopez… but I don’t know).
    Gallinari was arguably the best player in Italy, a pretty good player in the Eruoleague, and seems to have a real drive to be good/great. Just because the American TV audience has seen hours and hours of Augustin, Alexander, Gordon, etc. doesn’t make them more NBA ready than Gallinari.

    Also of note on draft night: Walsh didn’t trade any vets (Lee, Crawford, Nate) for picks, which is usually what you do if you’re “rebuilding” and don’t want to win now.

    Duhon:

    Again, you don’t have to sign anyone with the MLE if you don’t care about winning now. If you want to lose now you can stick with Collins.

    Come on, only plays defense? I realize he’s not a great player, but he’s instantly one of the best leaders on the Knicks (for what it’s worth), has one of the highest bball IQs on the team, doesn’t force as many shots as some Knicks’ guards, has as passable an outside shot as any Knick guard besides maybe Nate and possibly Roberson or Houston, and as you said he plays D.

    Roberson is most likely an inconsequential move, and I think Walsh feels the same way about Balkman. We’ll see what he can do, but Ewing Jr. was likely a PR move.

    D’Antoni:

    He’s setting the bar high for himself, so if Walsh’s plan is to let him be the scapegoat and get ripped by the media for 2 seasons and then suddenly have him turn into the golden boy he doesn’t know about it.

    You can trot out Marbury, Crawford, Q, Zach, and Eddy with Lee and Nate off the bench and win 23 games. I know this because the Knicks did so last season. You definitely can take over a team and tell the fan base that we have to clean out house and start over. I think that even Knicks’ fans were ready to hear that at this point. Seattle moved to OKC with a lose-now team and still sold out the season tickets, Memphis gave away Gasol and Minni gave away KG. The Clipps rarely make much effort to win. Walsh could have spent the offseason moving Crawford for a pick/prospect and cap space, Nate for a late first, Lee in some deal with an eye toward the future.

    I don’t think you purposely shoot yourself in the foot by being just too bad for the playoffs but just good enough to miss a good pick. If you end up in the late lottery you were almost in the playoffs, besides the Knicks-like collapses and Bulls-like luck most of the teams in the early lottery (Seattle, Memphis, Minni) were mostly tanking the season (Memphis is the only one that might have had some, obviously, false hope).
    I also get the impression that Walsh is very proffessional and a straight-shooter. I’m sure he has some moves up his sleave, but I don’t think he has an Isiah style I’ll outsmart everyone by being a complete idiot master plan.

    I agree that Walsh is building steadily. I’ve tried to make it very clear that I don’t think he’s trying to win now at the expense of later (that the long-term health of the franchise is his #1 priority) and that he’s been very patient. I just am not suprised that Walsh would make a win now move (if that’s what keeping Marbury is), because he hasn’t exactly been throwing in the towel all offseason.

  79. Z

    Walsh was going to hire Mark Jackson (supposedly) before D’Antoni fell into his lap. Jackson would have been a move for the future– no expectation on his first year. 2009 could have been a rebuilding year, letting the Layden/Isiah years bleed out, while Jackson learned on the job and Walsh patiently supplied him with the best players.

    I think this may have been Walsh’s plan, but when D’Antoni surprised the league by actually wanting the Knicks job, he may have been convinced that the Knicks were closer to winning than he originally thought.

    Waiving Marbury, like Ted said, is completely in line with the move of hiring D’Antoni– it speeds up the healing process.

    The only question is: was the wound properly dressed?

  80. Ted Nelson

    Thomas,

    I’ve tried to make it clear that I don’t think they’re a title contender, but a playoff contender. I think there’s a grey area in how much you actually win, but if you’re not either TRYING to win-now or lose to get a lottery pick and/or cap space to win later then you are not trying at all (which might explain why the Clipps have had so maybe mid-to-late lotto picks).

    I don’t think Walsh has set his expectations so high that if the Knicks are under .500 he’ll consider the team a failure, but I do think that he’d love it if Utah were able to claim the Knicks 1st rounder this year (I know, it’s not happening). As IS has been saying, it

    Mike,

    I don’t think he’s saying “I’m going to do everything I can do to be below-average this season.” I must be missing your point, because that makes no sense to me. I think he thought D’Antoni was the best coach for the Knicks available, so he signed him. I think he thought Gallinari was the best pick for the Knicks, so he picked him. I think he thought Duhon was the best player the Knicks could get with the MLE, so he signed him. It’s clearly not “win-now” in the way that a desperate GM might trade 5 draft picks to get one veteran for a playoff run because his job is on the line, but as I said originally: I am not suprised that Walsh would make a “win-now” move.

    IS,

    I think it’s mostly a matter of semantics and defining “win-now.” All I said was that it’s not suprising that Walsh made a win-now move because he’s been trying to win all offseason (although maybe trading Balkman was really part of his master plan to secretely throw the season). As you said, he’s made his plan public knowledge. There’s no need to guess at what Isiah’s plans to do with all the “long, athletic” players he gets in some secret offense that combines all of the greatest offenses ever played at the high school, collegiate, NBA, ABA, CBA, Euroleague, and D-League levels.

  81. Thomas B.

    I’m still not sure I even understand this debate. As I said earlier Walsh made his intentions very clear. He is doing eveything possible to make the team better NOW, but is not willing to sacrifice the long term or salary cap for 2010 in order to accomplish that.
    So yes, he IS trying to win NOW! But the Knicks are so far away from winning it all, there is no possible transaction or set of transactions that could put the Knicks over the top. So he’s not going to commit suicide to make us better this year.

    Aceofspades, now if you are looking for questionable basketball knowledge….

    Just kidding IS.

  82. Italian Stallion
    I’m still not sure I even understand this debate. As I said earlier Walsh made his intentions very clear. He is doing eveything possible to make the team better NOW, but is not willing to sacrifice the long term or salary cap for 2010 in order to accomplish that.So yes, he IS trying to win NOW! But the Knicks are so far away from winning it all, there is no possible transaction or set of transactions that could put the Knicks over the top. So he’s not going to commit suicide to make us better this year.

    Aceofspades, now if you are looking for questionable basketball knowledge….
    Just kidding IS.

    Hey, I’ve been behaving myself. ;-)

  83. Z-man

    I still don’t get the logic of dumping Steph now, unless he checks out mentally during camp or games.

    1) he is the best all-around guard on the team by far when healthy
    2) he played well for D’Antoni in Phx and he was playing well in 2006-07 before he hurt his shoulder
    3) anyone negatively affected by his presence for a few weeks or months is too mentally weak to matter anyway
    4) he is not getting in the way of the development of a future star young PG, unless you really believe in Duhon, which I don’t; he actually takes the pressure off of Duhon and Nate as they are eased in to the D’Antoni system.

    I am excited about leaving the past behind as well, but throwing away $21 million without at least trying to get something out of it is bad business. As to the players that don’t like him or want him around, their job is to play their best with whoever the coach and GM put out there. A healthy Steph on a short leash gives them a better chance to win than probably anyone else on the roster.

    If in training camp it becomes obvious that he can’t or won’t play D’Antoni ball, then dump him.

    So far, I am impressed with the way Walsh has handled this, especially from a strictly business perspective.

  84. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    Ted,

    Interesting post. I’ll try to touch on some of the things you’ve brought up.

    I don’t think trading Lee or Robinson for draft picks to be good ideas. Lee & Robinson are exactly the players you want to get when you draft in those spots. Trading them now is like winning at a casino, then coming home and spending that money to bet on the NFL.

    But I do buy that reasoning with Crawford. In fact one area I was disappointed with in regards to Walsh was his praise of Jamal, and I fear that Walsh may resign him to an overly lucrative contract. Jamal is going to be close to 30 when he’s a free agent, and that’s not a good time to give someone a long term deal. I would take a mid-first round pick for Jamal (given that the salary expires). But I don’t think Walsh would.

    As for D’Antoni, I don’t think he’s expecting to make the playoffs this year, despite what he says. Coaches jobs are to try to win, and you can’t get your players to do that speaking abut rebuilding. I usually find there to be an inverse relationship between how positively a coach speaks of his team to the team’s record. Coaches of bad teams usually try to accentuate the positive, while coaches of good teams usually speak poorly of their team (see: Belichick).

    As for trotting out Marbury, Crawford, Q, Z, and Curry – fans are already impatient that we haven’t made enough moves. And the season hasn’t started yet. Walsh hasn’t been on board long enough for the Knicks to play even one preseason game. If Chris Duhon is enough change to keep the fans pacified, but not enough to make the Knicks good, then I’m for it.

  85. Losy my Knickers

    Ted,
    Is keeping Stephon really a win-now move? Besides thats hes never really won anything, isnt it more likely he will be traded for a late pick come February?

  86. Gorky

    New York Knickerbockers President of Basketball Operations Donnie Walsh announced today that guard Allan Houston has been re-signed as a free agent.

    They also signed Dan Grunfeld, who played for Stanford.

    Uh oh

  87. daaarn

    New York Knickerbockers President of Basketball Operations Donnie Walsh announced today that guard Allan Houston has been re-signed as a free agent.
    They also signed Dan Grunfeld, who played for Stanford.
    Uh oh

    Check a couple posts up. It’s already been posted.

  88. Jayboy

    what i don’t understand are the people who think that we can trade Marbury in the middle of the season for something like draft picks or to a team that needs a PG. Marbury makes in excess of 20 million this year and i can’t think of one team that has more than 5 mil dollars worth of cap room at any given point in the season… With that said it would be impossible to trade him for a pick or anybody else with out huge contracts because in the NBA you have to match contracts.

    I personally was a huge fan of Marbury in Minnesota and New Jersey and wish he was still as talented as he was back then but that is wishfull thinking. That said i still think he should be kept and at least earn a fraction of what we are paying him rather than pay him to go make money somewhere else. I guess its more about principles for me.

  89. Ben R

    I don’t ever remember being this depressed about a team going into the season, in any sport.

    I completely agree.

    We traded away Balkman and got Gallinari so in my opinion that is a push and we failed to get rid of a single one of our bad contracts.

    As for the Duhon signing it is fine but after seeing what Smith, West and Landry got I think we could have done alot better. Smith will be a star in this league, West is a rich mans Duhon, and Landry is one of the most promising rookies from last year. We will regret the short term band-aid over the long term project in this case.

    As for Randolph we enter into the third season in a row with our best player stuck coming off the bench. I honestly could care less about 2010 and would love it if we just waived Randolph completely. Actually waive James, Richardson, Rose, Jeffries and Marbury while your at it then trade Crawford and Curry for what ever you can get and simply move on.

    Lee, Gallinari, Chandler and Robinson plus eight d-leaguers would be infinitly more entertaining and would probably win more games than this sorry excuse for a team.

    I am beyond depressed and if my Broncos weren’t so entertaining this year I would probably lose it.

  90. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    I don’t ever remember being this depressed about a team going into the season, in any sport.

    1995 New York Jets. Leon Hess fired Pete Carroll and hired Rich Kotite because he’s 80 years old and he wanted results now.

  91. mase

    “1995 New York Jets. Leon Hess fired Pete Carroll and hired Rich Kotite because he’s 80 years old and he wanted results now.”

    good one!

  92. Italian Stallion

    Financial Crisis Update!!!

    The democrats and republicans have agreed in principle to accept any amount of toxic financial waste Wall St is willing to dump on them, but the congressmen from NY are insisting on including Marbury in any deal and that killed discussions. ;-)

  93. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    Financial Crisis Update!!!

    The democrats and republicans have agreed in principle to accept any amount of toxic financial waste Wall St is willing to dump on them, but the congressmen from NY are insisting on including Marbury in any deal and that killed discussions. ;-)

    Yeah that’s the rumor now, but we’ll probably found out later that the republicans wanted a Supreme Court Justice to be named later in the deal. :-D

  94. TDM

    Riles had this to say today:

    “Heat President Pat Riley said this afternoon that the team won’t pursue any veteran free agents in the near future because it has only $415,000 available under the punitive dollar-for-dollar luxury tax, and the team doesn’t want to exceed that limit.”

    This is good for the Knicks because it gives them more leverage with Marbury. However, does anyone believe Pat when he says the team isn’t interested in picking up a free-agent guard?

  95. Jerome James, the other King James

    Financial Crisis Update!!!
    The democrats and republicans have agreed in principle to accept any amount of toxic financial waste Wall St is willing to dump on them, but the congressmen from NY are insisting on including Marbury in any deal and that killed discussions. ;-)

    Don’t blame that on Stephon. Congress was willing to accept Marbury, but at the last moment, Walsh tried to throw me in the deal. To quote House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, “The inclusion of Mr. James in this bailout plan significantly (ahem) tips the scales (snicker) against approval. We in Congress are accustomed to some pork added to a bill, but this is ridiculous.”

  96. Italian Stallion
    Financial Crisis Update!!!The democrats and republicans have agreed in principle to accept any amount of toxic financial waste Wall St is willing to dump on them, but the congressmen from NY are insisting on including Marbury in any deal and that killed discussions. ;-)

    Don’t blame that on Stephon. Congress was willing to accept Marbury, but at the last moment, Walsh tried to throw me in the deal. To quote House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, “The inclusion of Mr. James in this bailout plan significantly (ahem) tips the scales (snicker) against approval. We in Congress are accustomed to some pork added to a bill, but this is ridiculous.”

    ROTFLMAO. ;-)

  97. Ray

    I kind of like the Houston signing…give Jamal a quality backup…he wont be playing much D but who cares…at this point we’d all appreciated a little entertainment. Its just going to be one big adventure this year.

  98. ess-dog

    Tinsley alert: ESPN reporting that Jamaal Tinsley will sit out practice until he’s traded.

    This could set the stage for the grandest shitswap of all time… Randolph for Tinsley.

    I, for one, would do it just for the giggles.

  99. Thomas B.

    Houston, Ewing Jr., Dolan, could one of LJ’s children be the next signed? Actually Anthony Mason has a kid at St. John’s..you never know.

    I see JJ is well versed in current events. How many ballers can tell you name of the House Majority leader?

    —-
    Could Indy be interested in a Jared for Tinsley swap. Jamaal has the shorter deal does he not? I’d like Randolph to Indy for Foster and Tinsley.

  100. Captain Merlin

    The whole tinsley situation has my innards cinched in anxiety. On the one hand, I would love to be able to go through with Thomas B’s Randolph for him and Foster, however, only if the team were to immediately cut those two and save the roster space for players i despise less. I’d rather not even have Tinsley around our youngin’s.

    Also, I’d like to thank ess-dogg for further popularizing (the use of the word “shitswap” (A 100% increase in the number of users thanks to him). With the help of posters like you, we can soon have this glorious expression in the lexicon of the greater mid-atlantic/northeast area.

    Perhaps we could also send out a camp invite to one of Michael Ray’s nephews or something, you know, just for kicks–and rebuilding. Either that or one of the children or grandnephews or something of everyone here’s favorite Knick coach, John McLeod. Just a thought

    I wonder if Walsh will have the gusto to dump some of those morbid, despicably terrible pricey benchwarmers from Thomas’ time and replace them with younger, less detrimental seat heaters instead. PEjr on the fence? Who knows.

  101. Frank

    it just keeps getting better:
    “Would he be willing to be a backup?
    “I’m not coming off the bench here in New York,” Marbury said.”
    http://www.nypost.com/seven/09262008/sports/knicks/marbury_to_knicks__make_up_your_mind_130867.htm

    I’d like to ask Stephon — “Or what?” when he says stupid stuff like that. If he’s not in the starting lineup what’s he going to do? take his ball and go home? which is probably what the Knicks really want of course.

  102. Luke

    Wow @ the Marbury comments. There are a lot of people still defending him about his comments as well .Marbury had a sit down with D’antoni earlier this week and still felt compelled to make those types of comments. Hes smiling at the camera asking for another chance while still doing the same things that brought him to this point in the first place.He wants to be bought out and thought he would be .Now that he realizes its not and he has no guarantee of starting hes catering to the fans and the media in hopes the knicks will cave and grant his buyout.

  103. Brendan

    Gallinari out for whole preseason? http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/54582/20080927/gallinari_out_for_entire_preseason/

    Combine that with D’Antoni’s rookies-are-not-my-responsibility quote and, well…yeah. Even if the rooster’s back at some point before game one, the odds of him playing catch-up and getting few minutes throughout the full course of a 30-52 season seem to increase week by week.

    Honest question: what are we, as fans, looking forward to this year? What do we hope to see which will indicate progress? What’s our hoped-for benchmark?

  104. Thomas B.

    Thomas B.’s top ten things I am looking forward to/would like to see this year form the Knicks.

    10. Hard work and defensive effort.
    9. Significant development of the 1st and 2nd year players.
    8. Significant development in the maturity and decision making of the young vets.
    7. How well the teams strong offensove players will respond to the D’antoni offense.
    6. Whether Eddy Curry will continue his Steve Trachel career arch of 1 fair year followed by 1 bad year followed by 1 fair year followed by a nice contract followed by 1 bad year followed by 1 fair year followed by 1 good year followed by a very nice contract froma ny team followed by 1 bad year….
    5. Whether D’antoni will excuse “flat” performances from the team the way Isiah did.
    4. Whether the team will pay attention to D’antoni in the huddle becuase they did not pay Isiah that attention.
    3. When (if it happens) the first “Fire D’antoni/Walsh” chants, websites, t-shirts pop up.
    2. What the team will do with Marbs.
    1. Whether my league pass subscription will be worth it this year.

  105. Ray

    I expect to see Curry struggle because Z-bo is still here. I expect energetic play from Nate and Jamal possibliy winning us a few games with their heroics. I expect GAllo to get his back together and get some quality minutes. I expect to see Will Chandler to do some highlight reel dunks and blocks.

  106. cwod

    I’d like to see Randolph increase his trade value by putting up huge, hollow stats in points and rebounds. If the Knicks play at a fast enough pace, maybe he can even do better than his career per-game averages. Some GM would bite on that, right? Maybe?

    From what I’ve read, Jeffries might be able to have a non-horrendous season, so maybe he’d be movable at some point, as his deal gets shorter.

    I’d also like to see lots of losses, the end result being Ricky Rubio in a Knicks’ uniform.

  107. Italian Stallion

    Gallinari out for whole preseason? http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/54582/20080927/gallinari_out_for_entire_preseason/
    Combine that with D’Antoni’s rookies-are-not-my-responsibility quote and, well…yeah. Even if the rooster’s back at some point before game one, the odds of him playing catch-up and getting few minutes throughout the full course of a 30-52 season seem to increase week by week.
    Honest question: what are we, as fans, looking forward to this year? What do we hope to see which will indicate progress? What’s our hoped-for benchmark?

    Gallinari may start the season in the “D” league. This season is starting to look more like a major bust every day. It’s actually possible we are going to be worse this year!

  108. daaarn

    “what are we, as fans, looking forward to this year?”
    a really high draft pick and no more Marbury and Randolph.

    Yep, that’s the only thing I’m hoping for. As far as I’m concerned, this is going to be another stagnant year (standings-wise), so might as well do something to try and prepare for the future.

  109. Italian Stallion

    The more I think about Gallinari sitting out camp and playing in the “D” league, the sicker I get. That goes double because Zach, Marbury, and James are still here and Curry showed up like a fat slob. This is sickening. I can’t believe the season hasn’t even started yet and I feel this defeated and hopeless. There were only 3 things to look forward to this season.

    1. Dumping the losers – NOT DONE
    2. Watching Gallinari develop – Not happening
    3. Watching Chandler develop – So when do I read he’s hurt too????

  110. Owen

    hmm, worse to be a knicks fans or a mets fan? Just for today, I think the latter…..

    That was a punch in the gut….

  111. Brendan

    Walsh diagnosed with, treated for, cancer: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3614137

    Sheridan on Walsh, Knicks, rebuilding: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?page=knickswalsh-080926

    Lots of tidbits and rumors in the Sheridan article, the bottom line of which is: Curry’s still fat, the trades were never close, the team’s worried about Gallinari’s back, and the roster is going to be what it s for a good while yet.

    I’ve always assumed it would take 5 years to make the Knicks a serious (>.500) team again, but the articles paint maybe an even bleaker picture than that. It sounds like many teams aren’t even taking the Knicks seriously in trade talks yet, demanding Isiah-esque deals from them; combine that with Walsh hating buyouts, and you end up with stasis. Problematic.

  112. Thomas B.

    “If I’m a distraction and I’m all these different things, why would you want to keep somebody like that?” Marbury said in Friday’s editions of The New York Post. “It can’t be about the money. If you feel you’re better without me, just let me go. If not, let’s get down to the business of playing basketball.”
    -Stephon Marbury

    Well said lad. Lets just get down to playing ball. I think that quote-if he means it-says that he wants to ball play. No more distractions, just get to the task of winning games. I hope he means it, we could use his talent, if he keeps his head on and follows orders.

  113. Ess-dog

    Yeah, it sounds more and more like Marbury will be sticking around for the year, or at least half a year. Makes me wonder what this “plan” of Walsh’s is… He is also singing the prases of Duhon as a glue guy who will improve everyone’s game. Could Marbury be moved over to the 2 spot? Even though I hate him and Randolph, a lineup of Duhon, Marbury, Chandler, Lee and Randolph would be small, fast and fairly athletic. The negative talk about Curry’s weight leads me to believe he will be on the bench a lot, and Randolph’s sloth would be minimized at the 5 spot. And Crawford’s gifts would be best used as a 6th man, we all know that. Jeffries could play some D at the 4 and 5 spots, and Q and Nate would round out the rotation. As a fan, I’m trying to remain slightly positive and hoping to glean a few days of positive fandom out of the season.

  114. Thomas B.

    Ess-dog,

    I agree that Crawford may be better suited as a 6th man. Let him and nate run amok on the second team. Crawford can at least play a serviceable back up distributor. And since he seems best skilled at entry passes to Curry, it would be good since Curry would be a reserve in your suggested line up.

    Would Mardy Collins be better off as a defense minded reserve swing, rather than an offense challenged point?

  115. QnZSnEAkeRHeAD

    there is reallly no point of trading marbury, we have to pay for the contract etheir way so i think its better to see if he improved this which he said he got much heakthier and in a better sahpe (he got under 200 for the first time after highschool). I mean lets face were gonna for him wheter he plays or he doesnt play, it dosnt matter to him. Look at Jammal Tinsley on the pacers; he sittiing at home eating a big check without even moviing a muscle. Lets keep marbury this season if he plays nice, his trade value increases which means good for us. Lets concentrate on Z-BO, the guy isbig, doesnt polay ball , and wants the ball every season he is ridulcous and we need to get rid of him if we need salary cap space to pick up someone good in the year of 2010 (lebron,Amaire,Wade,Bosh,etcc…)

  116. QnZSnEAkeRHeAD

    there is reallly no point of trading marbury, we have to pay for the contract etheir way so i think its better to see if he improved this year which he said he got much healthier and in a better sahpe (he got under 200 for the first time after highschool). I mean lets face it were gonna for him wheter he plays or he doesnt play, it dosnt matter to him. Look at Jammal Tinsley on the pacers; he sittiing at home eating a big check without even moviing a single muscle. Lets keep marbury this season if he plays nice, his trade value increases which means good for us. Lets concentrate on Z-BO, the guy is big, doesnt play defense , and wants the ball every time they are on offense. he is ridulcous and we need to get rid of him if we need salary cap space to pick up someone good in the year of 2010 (lebron,Amaire,Wade,Bosh,etcc…) and build around.

  117. Nadri-Lee

    there is reallly no point of trading marbury, we have to pay for the contract etheir way so i think its better to see if he improved this which he said he got much heakthier and in a better sahpe (he got under 200 for the first time after highschool). I mean lets face were gonna for him wheter he plays or he doesnt play, it dosnt matter to him. Look at Jammal Tinsley on the pacers; he sittiing at home eating a big check without even moviing a muscle. Lets keep marbury this season if he plays nice, his trade value increases which means good for us. Lets concentrate on Z-BO, the guy isbig, doesnt polay ball , and wants the ball every season he is ridulcous and we need to get rid of him if we need salary cap space to pick up someone good in the year of 2010 (lebron,Amaire,Wade,Bosh,etcc…)

    Does anyone here speak Typo? This guy could use a translator.

  118. Thomas B.

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/la-spw-lakersider30-2008sep30,0,7846099.story

    Could the Lakers consider moving Odom? I’d like the Knicks to look into that. Would they move him and Fisher for Marbury? Salaries work, they get an expiring contract and a way to get Farmar more time, we get an experienced point, and a solid versitle guy. I’d prefer Fisher, but the Lakers will likely want the Knicks to take Radmonavic. I dont want Vlad Rad, his contract is too long.

    A second option is Malik Rose and Q Rich, but why would they want that? They would insist on Lee or Chandler and a big heck no to that!

    Aw nevermind.

  119. mase

    “Even though I hate him and Randolph, a lineup of Duhon, Marbury, Chandler, Lee and Randolph would be small, fast and fairly athletic.”

    no defense in that lineup.

    Crawford is an explposive scorer but not much else. There was a moment in time under Larry Brown when Crawford looked great as a pg, what happend?

    How about Duhon/Crawford, Q, Chandler, Lee at forward and play without a center?(Nate, Zach, Jeffries, Danilo off the bench.)

  120. ess-dog

    Look Mase,
    Fact is, if we don’t trade Randolph, we’re best off playing him as much as possible to raise his trade value as much as possible. That’s why I thought well maybe he can play center, as long as he just beats the other center down the court in D’Antoni’s offense. Plus, I would NOT like to see a lineup with Crawford, Q, AND Chandler… too many chuckers, not enough go in.
    And Thomas, my plan for Mardy includes him going to a lot of matinee art-films. Maybe some nice long autumn hikes in New Jersey, or attending a lot of gallery openings while P.E.2 slides into his spot at the end of the bench.

  121. mase

    look ess-dog,
    i would rather see my line-up of ‘chuckers’ than see Zach start, plain and simple. also, if you bring him off the bench he may be productive and thus attractive to other teams come trade deadline.

    the bottom line is that winning will increase the trade value for players as opposed to losing.

  122. Z

    “They are not going to waive (Marbury),” a league source familiar with the situation said Monday. “That’s off the table right now. Dolan is still the rock star contrarian. Everyone is telling him this is the one he has to get rid of, the contract he has to dump, and he won’t do it. He’s still the rebel without a cause. Donnie didn’t want him at camp. Mike didn’t want him there. But he’s there.”

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-knicks092908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

  123. mase

    “ok mase, you’re right, someone will TOTALLY trade for a $17 mil a year bench player…”

    as if they will trade for him now?

    my point was to use him as the role player he is, thats a commodity to a contender.

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