Comments on: LINK: “Knick”names and Jeremy Lin…

By: Thomas B.

Thomas B. — Thu, 03 May 2012 18:55:54 +0000

btw, suggesting to an Italian that “noodles” is the same as “pasta” is definitely offensive – Italians take cuisine seriously

Uh huh. Tell it to the ‘pedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pasta#Long_noodles
Noodles = Pasta

By: Z

Thu, 03 May 2012 02:33:29 +0000

Vctr: To touch upon this … it would be egregious to nickname an Italian player “Pasta”, would it not?

Yes, but only because it is a requirement to nickname every Italian player "Itlian Stallion".

By: jimjamj

jimjamj — Thu, 03 May 2012 01:55:23 +0000

My opinion is that any comment or moniker that perpetuates a stereotype, even non-negative stereotypes, especially unintentionally or playfully, is harmful to a community trying to overcome bias (I’ve looked at this with regards to sexism in male-dominated subcultures).

Often those types of statements don’t come off as offensive; blatantly offensive or pejorative comments are more painful to the subject, but because those comments alienate everyone, they do less to perpetuate stereotypes.

Having had this view before reading the article, I immediately branded the first three nicknames as negative. Nicknames based on “dragon” call attention to a revered icon in Chinese culture, thereby implicitly referring to Lin’s race; however I don’t really see how that is negative: it doesn’t appear to perpetuate any stereotypes, and it also doesn’t seem to be attempting to define Lin solely by his race, the way “white chocolate” does. Isn’t Lin specifically called “dragon” because of his birth-year, rather than his race? “Dragon” isn’t a moniker one such-minded name-giver would attach to just any Chinese (or Taiwanese) individual, right? And lastly, and I might be wrong on this, doesn’t the dragon have strong positive associations for the Chinese? Would that not make “dragon”-themed titles flattery?

btw, suggesting to an Italian that “noodles” is the same as “pasta” is definitely offensive – Italians take cuisine seriously

By: Vctr

Vctr — Wed, 02 May 2012 21:29:00 +0000

Thomas B.: “Noodles” is a bit more complicated.Is “noodles” just as bad for Asians as Italians or is it just fine.I went to school with a guy who got the nickname noodles because he was always in hot water.

To touch upon this ... it would be egregious to nickname an Italian player "Pasta", would it not?

By: johnlocke

johnlocke — Wed, 02 May 2012 18:53:31 +0000

Thomas I generally agree with you. All minority groups are stereotyped in one way or another. We have long had public socio-cultural debates about what these stereotypes are for African-Americans for example, but not as much for Asian-Americans. I think there is a relative genuine ignorance for many non-Asian people as it relates to what is considered acceptable and not acceptable by Asian-Americans, because these discussions have rarely ever happened in the public square. The first principle of "treat others as you'd like to be treated" is usually a good place to start. You enter a further shade of grey when you are at a sports arena and fans and announcers are trying to be entertainers with their signs --i.e. "Yellow Mamba", "Crouching Tiger Hidden Point Guard" or Lin bursting out of a fortune cookie. It's also tough because most minorities don't want to be primarily identified in their professions because of their race, "the black lawyer" etc, but at the same time can be proud of being one of the few of their race to be breaking barriers --an asian-american point guard. My long-winded point is that I think the issue is a bit complex to offer a standardized approach of knowing what will offend others, especially when many non-Asian-Americans are relatively ignorant of the history of Asian Americans in the US. The great news is that Lin will offer teaching moments throughout his career, some will be painful, but they should help advance a public dialogue that has rarely ever taken place

Thomas B.: Kobe is the Black Mamba right?I just thought that had more to do with being deadly than being black.I think it all comes down to whether the nickname uses a pejorative stereotype. “Spic” is an easy no.“Noodles” is a bit more complicated.

By: Thomas B.

Thomas B. — Wed, 02 May 2012 18:22:58 +0000

Kobe is the Black Mamba right? I just thought that had more to do with being deadly than being black. I think it all comes down to whether the nickname uses a pejorative stereotype. “Spic” is an easy no. “Noodles” is a bit more complicated. Is “noodles” just as bad for Asians as Italians or is it just fine. I went to school with a guy who got the nickname noodles because he was always in hot water. He is black. If everything else of who he is stayed the same except he was Asian of Italian, would it be wrong to call him noodles? “Stereotypes are most commonly defined as a characteristic associated with a group.”-TCS But the use of noodles is not based on the association with the group, but rather a condition that has nothing to do with the group.

What if Lin evolves into a Rondo like triple double threat and we start calling him “Numbers”? What then? Does that touch to closely to the sterotype that Asians are good with math. Can you call a Jewish ball player a diamond in the rough or say he pitched a gem?

“Even with these as stereotypes, should this warrant their no longer being considered as “Knick”names? Not necessarily. Why? Because that would impose negativity on an otherwise neutral stereotype. “-TCS

I agree with that. Each name requires a close look to see if the name was picked to highlight a sterotype about the group or if there is some race nuetral association. Black Mamba may be a good example of that.

Kudos to you Mike for getting this discussion started.

By: 06261990

06261990 — Wed, 02 May 2012 16:16:36 +0000

Doug: “Spic”

Yikes, that's a bad one. My position of privilege revealed.

By: chrisk06811

chrisk06811 — Wed, 02 May 2012 16:12:46 +0000

Mike: I read the whole article. I apologize for commenting before I did so, althought I was just responding to what Couseyfan said. The article is fair. It basically says this is a complicated issue, and there are lots of ways to look at it.

I’m sure there have been lots of times I’ve said something to people that could have been taken as stereotypical. I’m sure that sometimes they were offended, and other times they were not.

These things are so subjective. You can’t control what people think. You can’t tell someone they can’t be offended by something because you didn’t mean it that way. You can’t tell someone they are being too sensitive.

Jeremy Lin is a public figure. I’m not worried about offending him. So what if he bows at Carmello? So what if he’s not bothered by such things. This guy is really, really well educated, and he’s got a good life. I think if anything he’d prefer to be known as a good PG and not as an Asian PG. I think all of us know that (thanks in part to Baron and Bibby).

What bugs me is when someone like Couseyfan stands up and says hey….here’s my background, and here’s what offends me, and people suggest that these statements are not offensive. It’s up to him to determine what offends him. You should realize when you open your mouth that you might offend someone. If you had nothing but good intentions, be smarter about it, and dont’ say it in the first place.

I think it’s good that someone like Lin comes along and makes us think about stuff like this and how important it still is today. I think the whole discussion is healthy. And, I think the article is well written, and suggests there is no one good answer.

I’m also thrilled we have a real PG again.

By: Doug

Doug — Wed, 02 May 2012 16:06:41 +0000

06261990: Also: the S word?I’m drawing a blank. Socialism?

"Spic"

By: Doug

Doug — Wed, 02 May 2012 16:05:57 +0000

Mike’s wife wrote the article, btw.