So I can see why a potential Turiaf/Amare starting front-court raises rebounding questions, but in the larger rotation Turiaf is probably only getting 20 mpg… if he beats Timo out. If the Knicks miss a couple rebounds that your average team would have gotten it doesn’t doom them if they’re scoring efficiently, holding onto the ball, playing defense, and creating TOs. If they struggle in one or more of those areas, it might compound any rebounding deficiencies.

Considering that the Knicks played mostly terrible rebounding 4s next to Lee last season–Harrington, Gallo, Jeffries–they should be improved this season over last season. AR isn’t much of a step down from Lee last season (though he might not get as many minutes), and Amare/Turiaf/Timo are better rebounders than Harrington/Gallo/Jeffries. If D’Antoni settles on or is forces to play a primary group of Amare, Gallo, Walker, Douglas, Felton… then I’d be worried about rebounding–and more so with Turiaf in for Amare–but then the Knicks would probably also have bigger issues with injuries and/or production.

Z-man: Whatever we turn out to be, we are vastly improved defensively in the middle, which isn’t saying much.

Exactly, it’s not saying anything… AR still has the most defensive potential of any bigman on the roster. Far more than Amare and Turiaf, certainly. The only one you could even argue for is Timo, and the evidence just suggests he’s very foul prone. Think of all the guys AR is compared to favorably… KG, Camby, Lamar Odom, Josh Smith… None of those guys play primarily on the wing. They are all frontcourt players in today’s NBA. If Larry Brown’s your coach I can see AR primarily on the wing, I can’t see it with D’Antoni.

Z-man: I was specifically referring to the point that they need more help in the middle than on the perimeter.

WC, Felton, TD, and Azu don’t strike you as relatively better defenders at their position than Amare and Ronny Turiaf?

Z-man: if AR’s length causes issues for opposing ball movement up top, what we lose in perimeter shooting we can gain in turnover/transition baskets.  

What you lose in perimeter shooting, plus what you lose in AR’s rebounding and potential as an interior/help defender. Plus what you lose in AR’s superior finishing ability by forcing him to take more Js than he should be (ala Ariza in Houston).

I can see going with either strategy, but I can only see Mike D’Antoni going with one as his *primary* strategy. I have specifically said I can see AR guarding the perimeter on D for stretches (can’t really see him playing the 2 on offense). Boris Diaw played primarily at the 5 for D’Antoni, but he would also guard PGs at times. I can even see a Felton, Gallo, AR, Amare, C line-up for stretches, I just hope that it’s not the Knicks primary line-up with Mike D’Antoni as their coach… I’m more inclined to look at D’Antoni’s history for clues than to assume he completely changes his philosophy on the game and team strategy and becomes Larry Brown.

Z-man: I am less down on Felton than you are in this regard (he shot pretty well from 3 last year)

I am not “down” on him… I simply looked at the stats. Even if he can repeat his 2009-10 shooting (which is far from a given… and that’s on 156 3PAs after he hit .280 and .285 from 3 the two previous seasons… on his career he’s semi-decent .327 3P shooter), he’s still not a strong outside shooter. Solid, but not strong for a coach who likes his team to take more 3s than any other team. If you have a 2 a 4 and a 5 who take zero 3s combined… that puts a lot of pressure on the 3 and 1 spots on any team. Felton is not an awful outside shooter overall, but for a PG he’s definitely not a good one. Not if Amare is going to be the 3rd most accomplished 3pt shooter in your primary line-up…

Randolph has 1 career NBA 3Per… Even if he improves by leads and bounds as a shooter, is it really fair to assume he’s going to be a 3pt threat in year 1?

It’s not that the Knicks interior defense looks terrible (should certainly get better than it’s been… which has been among the worst in the league… and that’s not all Lee, because their primary 4 was Al Harrington…), but it could certainly be better than Amare/Turiaf/Timo. Going based on the presumption that interior defense is generally more valuable than perimeter defense, I’d rather have AR helping out in the middle and maximizing his most valuable skills as a rebounder and shot blocker. I think this also matches up with the Knicks other personnel 100%.

Amare is not a terrible interior defender, but he’s also not good. The criticism he takes for his defense is exaggerated, but not baseless. He will never be a candidate for all-defense.
Turiaf is also not a great defender, though he may be solid. He’s a guy who has never played 20 mpg and played on some terrible defensive teams in GS that he failed to help. He can guard the post and block a shot here and there, but no one is going to confuse him for Bill Russell.
As much as I’m optimistic, Timo has shown nothing in the NBA and didn’t even dominate in Europe. He’s far too foul prone to be counted on as your primary interior defender. Theoretically you can ask him to do that for the 15-20 minutes he’s on the court and live with the fouls, or play him more minutes and ask him to be less aggressive.

On the perimeter the Knicks have strong defenders in WC, TD, and Felton. Azu is solid and so is Mason. No one is going to ask Gallo to play guard–although D’Antoni did actually use him on 1s pretty frequently last season. I’m suggesting he play the 3. Everyone on this site has a fit when I even suggest Gallo is an average defender because they think he’s such a great defender…

Again, to repeat this another time, D’Antoni can’t run his offense with only one shooter on the court. Getting a shooter in there at the 2 seems like a logical step if you assume Amare, Gallo, and AR are the Knicks’ best players and Felton is their only true PG.

All this assumes that AR can actually guard frontcourt players and secure the lane with help defense, which I myself pointed out is a leap of faith. I’d just rather give him a chance to fail in the “middle” before using him on the wing. (*D’Antoni’s version of the middle… something like Boris Diaw/Shawn Marion hybrid.)

Overall, though, I agree that AR should spend the majority of his time on the court near the paint.

Z-man: @64
Agree, although it is possible that on the defensive end he might be valuable on the perimeter in a big lineup configuration.  

It’s possible, but the Knicks need more help in the middle than on the perimeter at this point.

61: Definitely encouraging, and there’s plenty of reason to think both will take strides towards becoming the players they are capable of being (whatever that is… in both cases it’s very good, but we’ll see exactly how good… that’s not pessimism, just that no one can know for sure). Still… Shaq has worked on his free throw shooting for years and I’ve read articles about how hard Mike Dunleavy Jr. works in the offseason on explosiveness…
I am more skeptical about Danilo gaining athleticism–maybe the back has been an issue as some speculate… and even with no explosiveness or quickness whatsoever Hedo manages to do a lot on the court. Still, his stats scream Peja Stojakovic, which is not a bad thing. While Randolph’s shot should improve the question is how much… even with a good, solid improvement he’s still a bad/mediocre jump shooter… I certainly hope he does, but realistically I doubt he goes from awful to great in one off-season. Maybe he’s managed to fix his mechanics or just never did any work in the past, but short of that it’s going to take a couple of years in even the best case scenario where he becomes a strong jump shooter. (And that’s relevant in the conversation of whether AR should be the Knicks starting SG this season, which was what was being discussed.)

Z-man: The validity of the comparison probably depends mostly on what is between AR’s ears and inside his chest.

That’s all I’m saying… People are comparing him to former DPOY bigmen and at the same time hoping he’ll play SG… He’s a very versatile player with a lot of upside to go with already strong production, but… he can’t do everything all at once. He’s shown little inclination to play inside, on the one hand, and little perimeter skill in the half-court, on the other. I think there’s a good chance that his skills and athleticism will transcend position, but there’s also a chance his limitations will keep him from excelling at any one position.

Z-man: I don’t think it’s a given that AR will be a bad mid-range shooter, especially if he’s willing to work at it,

I never said he won’t or can’t… I said that he hasn’t been for two seasons and showed no improvement from year 1 to year 2… Those are just facts, I’m not stating any opinion whatsoever. I also said what I said in the context of calls for AR to be the Knicks starting 2-guard in a line-up that also features Felton, Amare, and Timo… none of whom is a good outside shooter. In my meaningless opinion, AR’s value to the Knicks is in the frontcourt. That’s based both on his career production (reb, blks, jump shooting) and on D’Antoni’s history with Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw. Frontcourt talent is scarce, and the Knicks have a potentially excellent frontcourt player. I personally wouldn’t have him dancing around on the perimeter as a 2 guard.