Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, October 25, 2014

Lakers 109, Knicks 87

For the second game in a row, the Knicks went to their bench for garbage time, as coach D’Antoni inserted Mozgov with 3:39 to go in the fourth quarter. Unlike the Phoenix game this was in a losing proposition. The Lakers beat New York by 22 last night, fueled by their rebounding & defense. Los Angeles grabbed 17 offensive rebounds, and 3 Lakers finished with double digit rebounds yesterday. The Knicks did a good job on Kobe Bryant, holding him to 27 points on 28 shots, and forcing him into some bad looks. However Pau Gasol picked up the slack with 20 points on 13 attempts. And Shannon Brown scored 16 on 8 shots (in only 18 minutes).

The Knicks offense went cold in the second half, and they finished the game with a underwhelming 41% eFG. The non-Landry Fields starters shot only 35.7% (21-63, 3 3PM). The game was a feisty one. Ron Artest seemed overly interested in other people’s necks.
Just 6 minutes the Queensbridge native got into an altercation with Shawne Williams, and he clotheslined Amar’e in the 3rd quarter. Later in the game, Bynum was ejected for arguing a call.

92 comments on “Lakers 109, Knicks 87

  1. stratomatic

    The Knicks clearly don’t match up well against big teams. Amare isn’t a C and combined with some combination of Chandler, Williams, Gallo or Turiaf in the frontcourt they are simply too weak on the boards and not long enough to defend the interior. If you combine that with a team that can defend the middle and recover to at least contest our 3 point shooting you have a recipe for disaster.

    Personally, I am not a fan of small ball.

    I understand that D’Antoni wants to put the 5 best players on the court. I also understand that sometimes having an edge in speed and using outside shooting to bring opposing big men away from the basket is a plus on offense. However, you have to weigh those advantages against the disadvantages on the other end of the floor.

    I don’t think coach is doing a very good job of weighing those offsetting factors on some occasions and it leaving us very disadvantaged when there are alternatives (albeit not great ones).

    I also think we have little chance of developing into a serious contender over time until we get a legitimate productive big man that can rebound, block shots, and defend the paint but also fit into the offense reasonably well.

    To me, adding Melo might make us a better team depending on who we give up, but what he brings to the table is the least of our problems and it would reduce our cap flexibility to address the real issues. So I am silently hoping that NJ lands him.

  2. Jimmy C

    While Mozgov actually looked half-alive in his garbage time last night — dropping only one pass rifled at about 90 mph by TD — it’s clear we still need a backup big.

    This is probably going way too far out on a limb, but it seems like the missing factor in making the Melo deal happen is Johan Petro. Detroit doesn’t want him, and NJ needs to unload him. Is there any way we work ourselves into this deal, get Petro for basically a bag of balls? Obviously it’s not in our immediate interest to help a division rival land Melo, but if all sides involve are desperate enough to make it happen, couldn’t we conceivably work our way in to land both Petro and a backup PG? Again, probably seems ludicrous to have us help the New Yorkers land their cornerstone, but what I’ve seen of Petro, he isn’t terrible. He’s got a semi-reliable 15-footer, is reasonably athletic and active, and legitimately 7 feet.

    Obviously I’d rather wait to land a Deandre Jordan who, after watching the last few Clips games on League Pass, looks like he’s really coming into his own, particularly on the defensive end, where he’s been an absolute animal. But if we can fill both needs — backup C and PG — by wedging ourselves into this deal, and we can do so knowing confidently that NJ, even with Melo, isn’t sniffing the playoffs this year… should we do it?

  3. Frank

    i don’t know what to think about last night’s game — I almost think that outside the Lakers O-rebounding, we basically beat ourselves. Felton played by far his worst game in a Knick uniform – just throwing stupid passes that are out of character. Everybody missed a bunch of easy wide open or point-blank shots. Some of that can be attributed to Bynum et al. but a lot of it was just missing easy shots.

    Meanwhile, I was very impressed with Landry’s defense on Kobe yesterday. Crazy to imagine guarding the guy whose poster hung on your wall growing up. Holding Kobe to 27 points on 28 shots is pretty impressive.

  4. Ben R

    It was a bad game but I don’t think we lost because of our gameplan. We had a bad shooting night, teams have them sometimes. I’m kinda happy it happend during a game we would have probably lost anyway.

    Our defense inside wasn’t that bad, Bynum was 8-15, Gasol 5-13, Artest was 2-9 and Odom was 4-9. We also blocked 11 shots. We didn’t lose this game because of our failure to defend the paint.

    The rebounding was bad but most of the Lakers dominance on the glass happend in the first half. In the first half the Lakers outrebounded us by 14 with an offensive rebounding edge of 11-4. In the second half the Lakers outrebounded us by 5 with an offensive rebounding edge of 6 to 3. In the first half they dominated us on the glass yet we were still within 5. In the second half the rebounding was fairly close yet we were outscored by 17.

    The story of the game was not the lakers dominance inside or on the glass, the story was us not being able to hit our open shots. Amare couldn’t hit a shot to save his life in the first half which allowed the Lakers to guard him 1 on 1 and that combined with a poor shooting night from Felton was really the reason we couldn’t keep up.

    On a side note I really don’t like Kobe’s playing style. He is constantly turning down pretty good looks to dribble into traffic and force up really difficult shots. He talent allows him to hit a decent amount of those shots but wouldn’t he be much more effective if he played with the team concept and only took quality shots. He might average a couple less points per game but I think the whole team would be beter for it. It’s the reason I don’t want Melo, he does the same thing. I don’t want players who can make tough shots I want players who take, and make, quality shots. There is enough time on the shot clock to get a quality shot 95% of the time if you move the ball and play unselfishly.

  5. stratomatic

    Anyone that thinks we simply shot poorly should keep track of how often we manage to shoot poorly when we match up against a team that can stack the middle and that is also quick enough to come back out and defend or at least contest the 3 point line.

    Sure maybe we missed a few shots we should have hit, but I’d be willing to bet that we will continue to somehow just “simply miss shots”, make bad plays etc… and perform well below our norms when we play teams like LA, Orlando, Miami or LA (over the long haul). Those teams have the blue print and players needed to take away our strengths and exploit our weaknesses and we will never get past them with this kind of lineup.

  6. stratomatic

    Sorry for all the grammar and spelling errors, but I was very rushed and didn’t get a chance to proof read anything.

  7. Frank

    stratomatic: Anyone that thinks we simply shot poorly should keep track of how often we manage to shoot poorly when we match up against a team that can stack the middle and that is also quick enough to come back out and defend or at least contest the 3 point line.
    Sure maybe we missed a few shots we should have hit, but I’d be willing to bet that we will continue to somehow just “simply miss shots”, make bad plays etc…and perform well below our normswhen we play teams like LA, Orlando, Miami or LA (over the long haul). Those teams have the blue print and players needed to take away our strengths and exploit our weaknesses and we will never get past them with this kind of lineup.  

    I hear what you’re saying, but fact is, how many WIDE OPEN 3’s did we miss yesterday? How many wide open 2’s did Felton miss when his man went intentionally under the screen? How many short gimmes did Amare miss (which he normally makes)? Chandler getting stuffed by the rim on his patented wraparound baseline dunk? Some of this is just law-of-averages stuff -we’ve been shooting the lights out lately, and we were bound to have a bad shooting game. Like someone else posted, I’m glad this happened against LA than against a crappy team that we should beat.

    On top of missing a bunch of shots, it was just an unbelievable sloppy game. Bad passes, stupid shots, everything.

  8. Ben R

    Well to begin with we are not as talented as Miami or LA so we need to play a good game to have a chance especially on the road. As for getting back to our three point shooters I don’t think LA did it that well, especially in the first half. In the half they were clogging the middle and our shooters shot 41.7% from 3. It was close, we were down five and that was with Amare and Felton combining for 3-17 in that half and a huge deficiency on the boards, 34-20.

    In the second half they actually stopped clogging the middle. Since Amare wasn’t really a threat with his jumper they could defend him 1 on 1 sagging his man off of him, daring him to shoot jumpers. This allowed LA to cover the perimeter close and dare Amare to beat them. Amare shot okay; 6-14 with 6-7 from the line but he had to fight hard for those points. The problem was it allowed the Lakers to cover our shooters really close forcing them into shooting 23.1% from behind the arc in the second half.

    If Amare had been his normal self in the first half the Lakers couldn’t have sagged off of him in the second half and would have had to continue to cheat off the shooters. Or if Felton been able to have a good game then he could have collasped the middle creating space but he also was not much of a threat either.

    The Lakers are a good defensive team but not a great one, worse than the Spurs, Pacers, Celtics and Hornets all teams we’ve been able to score against, they played good defense but not anything we couldn’t have overcome if we had gotten good games from Amare and Felton.

  9. stratomatic

    Frank,

    I hear what you are saying, but I think you may be underestimating some of the impact that LA’s defense, length, and quickness to defend the 3 was having on our execution, shot selection, and shot making.

    Had we made a few more of those very open shots, we still would have lost pretty badly because we got dominated on the boards and weren’t getting as many easy shots as we usually get.

    I think that’s going to be an ongoing issue for us against some teams that will enable them to outperform us by more than an analysis of the team’s average point differential would suggest.

    LA is not massively better than NY on average, but that specific matchup is a bad one for us.

  10. Z

    I was at the game. Not much to add, except I sat a few rows behind the Knick bench. Saw Randolph and curry both give a high five to a player (emphasis on player), so they weren’t completely, absolutely, 100% disengaged from the team.

    Re: Carmelo to NJ trade. Pretty weird that 57 year old Rip Hamilton is the player Carmelo Anthony wants to play with. Or at least it seemed weird, until I read on Yahoo this morning that Leon Rose, the architect of the deal, is trying to get his other client, Chris Paul, to join up with Jersey next. Interesting.

  11. stratomatic

    >If Amare had been his normal self in the first half the Lakers couldn’t have sagged off of him in the second half and would have had to continue to cheat off the shooters.<

    IMO he had a poor first half largely because the size, length, and adjustments LA was making made it difficult for him get the dunks and other very easy shots he normally gets and there were longer players defending his jumpers etc…

    When they made adjustments in the other direction, he played better, but their length still held him below his usual performance while they were stifling our outside shooters.

    Whatever LA chose to do, they were good enough to not allow us to be extremely effective at the alternatives.

    Like I said, we shot poorly, but a good part of it was defense. If we shot better, we would have lost by 10-15 instead of 20 + garbage time.

  12. Jafa

    Stratomatic,

    Did you watch the same game we watched?

    “IMO he had a poor first half largely because the size, length, and adjustments LA was making made it difficult for him get the dunks and other very easy shots he normally gets and there were longer players defending his jumpers etc…”

    So not true. He was missing jumpers he normally makes, right in his range. When he was guarded by Bynum, he sagged of Amare, giving him good space to make his jumper. They just weren’t going in. When Gasol “attempted” to guard him, he would blow by him (and Bynum as well) for easy scores. “Size, lenght and adjustments” had nothing to do with it. You give the Lakers too much credit.

    Like someone said, they out rebounded us by 14 and were still only up by 5. Kobe was taking terrible shots all game. Their spacing was poor. Artest was ineffective. Bynum got his shot blocked plenty times (he did get a good dunk on Amare though).

    “Like I said, we shot poorly, but a good part of it was defense. If we shot better, we would have lost by 10-15 instead of 20 + garbage time.”

    No, they played ok defense but the got a lot of rebounds which equal second opportunities for them (especially when Bynum was getting offensive rebounds for dunks all day). Miami played great defense on us both times. LA simply played good defense and we shot poorly to add to our misery.

    I’m afraid of Miami’s defense. I am not afraid of LA’s defense.

  13. Ben R

    Jafa: I’m afraid of Miami’s defense. I am not afraid of LA’s defense. Jafa

    I think this is exactly correct. Miami’s defense gave us fits and to get past it we have to play very well, move the ball and hit our shots against LA all we have to do is hit our shots and we will be in it.

    I actually thought Grant Hill contested many more of Amare’s jumpers than Bynum did last night. The difference is Amare was hitting his jumper verses Hill. All Amare had to do to get an good look is jab step Bynum and then shoot the jumper, they are shots he makes most of the time and yet he was 1-10 in the first half. He goes 5-10 and we are up at the break and it’s a completely different game. Bynum could keep Amare from dunking but he was practically daring Amare to shoot that 18 footer.

  14. Frank O.

    I think this was a let down game. The Knicks were emotionally charged for the Suns, and let down in this game.
    I think the boards hurt them, but if you’re making shots the other team is getting fewer rebounds.
    I think we are troubled by the size and physicality of the Lakers. I mean, Bynum is enormous, and he’s clearly been lifting some weights. Gasol is a great big…not a good big, a great big. Oh, and then they have Odom and Artest.
    A very, very physical team.
    Also, you have to remember: the Knicks are good enough that teams now have to get up to play with them. Look at some of the good teams the Knicks have beaten…every one knows how good they are.
    So, there were a combination of things throwing the Knicks off.
    Not sure what impact Gallo might have had on this game, but having yet another high-percentage three pt shooter out there might have changed the dynamics. Say what you will, but Walker is not Gallo from outside.
    Amare missed shots that he cans routinely this year. Same goes for Ray.
    I think the Knicks let down a bit, got overwhelmed by the size and intensity of the Lakers on their home court, and the game got away from them.
    At some point, the Knicks are going to lose games. Even if they are really good, they will lose games. All the really good teams lose games.
    I agree with Ben: I don’t mind them having an off game against a team they weren’t likely to beat at their home. It was tough under the best of circumstances. (especially for east coast fans forces to stay up late.)

    I think the Knicks size in the paint is an issue that needs to be addressed. Of course, that weakness is noticable when they are off their game.
    There is nothing new that we learned here. As cops like to say: move along. Nothing to see here.

  15. Frank O.

    BTW:
    I don’t think Melo is going to approve this trade. I mean, Denver can trade him. I just don’t think he wants to sign with NJ.

    here’s a story from realgm:

    Carmelo Anthony didn’t think Denver’s loss to New Orleans on Sunday night would be his final game with the franchise.

    “Uh-uh, not at all,” Anthony said, repeating the phrase “not at all” four times.

    Anthony noted that Nuggets team executive Josh Kroenke and general manager Masai Ujiri “are not even here, so I don’t see that happening.”

    Reports of a possible trade picked up over the weekend, with the Pistons entering talks between the Nuggets and Nets in the three-team deal.

    “No,” Anthony said when asked if he thought a trade might be completed this week.

    Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/71060/20110110/carmelo_doesnt_think_hes_played_final_game_with_nuggets/#ixzz1Af3L657k

  16. Frank O.

    Suns woes continue:
    Grant Hill sprains his knee.

    Nash has now plunged to the 6th ring of hell. :)

  17. Jafa

    Varejao is also injured and done for the season. Too bad he was the only player on the Cavs we were actually interested in.

    Feel bad for Grant Hill though. He looked good this season and wouldn’t give up even though that Suns team was going nowhere. Same for Nash.

  18. stratomatic

    Jafa,

    IMO the rebounding disadvantage will be an on going problem every time we face a big long team. It’s a matchup issue.

    IMO the rebounding issue is very significant and was critical last night too.

    The point is not that we were only down 5 points despite the huge difference in rebounding in the first half (or at any other point in the game). The issue is that had there been less of a difference, we probably would have been ahead at that point in the game.

    When you give up a lot of offensive boards you are giving your opponent extra possessions. Normally, possessions are worth about 1 point each. Possessions off offensive rebounds are often worth more than that because they often lead to easy put backs.

    Without watching every play to see exactly what those rebounds cost us yesterday, I can tell you with certainty that over the long haul they are a disaster and the result of our small and weak rebounding lineup. It really doesn’t matter how things shook out in terms of the other stuff last night. The rebonding cost us a lot.

    As far as defense goes, I think if you focus less on what you think you are seeing and more on how the Knicks do offensively against teams that have a big or two that can defend the middle and still at least get out to the arc to contest some shots, (like Boston, Orlando, LA, amd Miami) you are going to find that we suddenly don’t make as many shots. That is also a mathup issue and partly the result of small ball.

    er

  19. Frank O.

    I noted this last night, but I was surprised that on several possessions the lakers ran two and three defenders at WC when he faced the basket.
    I said last night he has arrived, but that now he need to learn how to either split the double or pass out of it to the open man. He seemed caught off guard by the doubles.
    This is important because when STAT has struggled, usually WC is the guys stepping up. WC couldn’t do that last night.

  20. Frank O.

    Jafa: Varejao is also injured and done for the season. Too bad he was the only player on the Cavs we were actually interested in.Feel bad for Grant Hill though. He looked good this season and wouldn’t give up even though that Suns team was going nowhere. Same for Nash.  (Quote)

    Grant will get in the Hall. No doubt in my mind.

  21. taggart4800

    I am really warming to the idea of Dalembert. I think Eddy and Azu’s insurance paid contract might get it done at the end of Jan. We don’t need a league dominating C just one that is use to playing against them and knows how to handle them.

  22. stratomatic

    Ben R: I think this is exactly correct. Miami’s defense gave us fits and to get past it we have to play very well, move the ball and hit our shots against LA all we have to do is hit our shots and we will be in it.I actually thought Grant Hill contested many more of Amare’s jumpers than Bynum did last night. The difference is Amare was hitting his jumper verses Hill. All Amare had to do to get an good look is jab step Bynum and then shoot the jumper, they are shots he makes most of the time and yet he was 1-10 in the first half. He goes 5-10 and we are up at the break and it’s a completely different game. Bynum could keep Amare from dunking but he was practically daring Amare to shoot that 18 footer.  (Quote)

    Do you really think Bynum’s length and ability to slow down Amare from getting easy baskets had nothing to do with Amare’s bad overall shooting game?

    Even when a guy is not right in your face that extra length and any help you get is an incremental problem.

    Changing the shot distrubtion between jumpers and dunks is also an issue.

    So Amare went 1-10 and missed a few shots he normally bags, he was still in a worse position than he nornally is and certainly worse than when Grant Hill is defending him.

  23. Jafa

    Stratomatic,

    I’m not delusional enough to believe that we don’t have a rebounding problem/need. We do. We have a rebounding disadvantage against everybody! I mean everybody! Even against the Nets, the Wolves, the Clippers…you name the team they can probably out rebound us. So I’m not surprised that we were out rebounded by the Lakers. You and I agree on that.

    Here’s where we disagree – that we lost that game because of LA’s defense. Like I said, I’m only afraid of Miami’s defense. And they don’t have a “big or two that can defend the middle and still at least get out to the arc to contest some shots” (unless you think Bosh is that good). I’m afraid of them for two reasons: great team defense (perimeter, help defense, recovery and Joel Anthony) and they can play our style better than us right now.

    No other team has these two things going for them as well as Miami. Not LA, Boston or Orlando. We can put up 100 points on those teams easily if we are on our game. In a 7 game series, I think we can beat any of those teams. All except Miami right now.

  24. stratomatic

    Frank O.: I noted this last night, but I was surprised that on several possessions the lakers ran two and three defenders at WC when he faced the basket.I said last night he has arrived, but that now he need to learn how to either split the double or pass out of it to the open man. He seemed caught off guard by the doubles.This is important because when STAT has struggled, usually WC is the guys stepping up. WC couldn’t do that last night.  (Quote)

    The other day Chandler said that he has benefitted with better looks on the nights that Amare gets doubled. Having Gallo out there probably also helps him because defenses are probably still more respectful of Gallo’s shooting than Wilson’s. (those kinds of matchup issues are also probably a reason why Gallo has been less consistent).

    But without Gallo out there and a defender that can keep Amare from putting on a dunkathon, there’s no reason to allow Chandler to shoot uncontested shots. Shawn Williams has also benefitted similarly. I don’t think either will shoot as well long term when they are somewhat contested.

  25. stratomatic

    Jafa,

    I guess I didn’t read your comments carefully enough. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I think I mixed up part of what you were saying with something else I read earlier. lol

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on the defensive issues.

    I think there’s a blueprint that can exploit our weaknesses and take some of our strengths away. That will extend the gap between us and the other team to larger than it would typically be.

    I think LA falls into that category along with Boston, Miami, and Orlando and did some of that last night.

    We’ll get to see them again in NY and we’ll how we shoot that night.

    Just another passionate fan here.

  26. ess-dog

    Just saw the Artest/Shawne incident on youtube. How was he not kicked out and fined? The nonsense was clearly started by Artest (he pushed 3 different Knicks) and then he actually put a hand on Shawne’s throat. WTF???
    Stern better wake up and pay attention. There is a big difference between Moz’s unintentional elbow and Artest’s deliberate choke move. You could tell Artest restrained himself at the last possible second but I still think he went too far.

  27. Jimmy C

    ess-dog:
    The only thing I want from the TWolves is their 1st round pick.  

    Assuming they won’t part with their doubtless top-3 first rounder, I like Z’s idea. I would even take Flynn, although considering Kahn seems to feel he’s gonna be an All Star one day, probably unlikely.

    Thing is, Kahn is more than stupid enough to pull the trigger on something like that.

  28. Brian Cronin

    These Minnesota stories continue to be absurd. I mean, they can say whatever they want, it doesn’t make it a feasible trade. “Yeah, we’re interested in Anthony Randolph, we’ll give you…hmmm…let’s say, Sebastian Telfair.”

    Unless they’re offering their first rounder, the conversation is ridiculous. They have no one else to trade outside of guys they’d never trade for AR, like Rubio and Love.

  29. Resounding Rebounding

    ess-dog: The only thing I want from the TWolves is their 1st round pick.  (Quote)

    Toney Douglas has played alot better lately at least when it comes to his passing. I think he had like 6 assists last night. They won`t trade us the rights to Rubio, Kahn is convinced he’s going to sign with them this offseason. They won`t give us their 1st round pick this year but I suppose it’s possible they could trade us a protected 2012 1st round pick for AR. Think the Clippers might be interested in Randolph?

  30. Jimmy C

    Brian Cronin: These Minnesota stories continue to be absurd. I mean, they can say whatever they want, it doesn’t make it a feasible trade. “Yeah, we’re interested in Anthony Randolph, we’ll give you…hmmm…let’s say, Sebastian Telfair.”Unless they’re offering their first rounder, the conversation is ridiculous. They have no one else to trade outside of guys they’d never trade for AR, like Rubio and Love.  

    Obviously you don’t do it for Telfair. But if you subscribe to the argument that Kahn’s motivation — however stupid it may have been or seemed at the time– for drafting Rubio and Flynn was to eventually offer one of them up as trade bate for another piece, then maybe landing one of them isn’t entirely out of the question.

  31. JR Sec 112

    Where is everyone coming up with Dalembert as a potential big option? He’s terrible and has proven effort issues. Marc Gasol is an excellent choice. The key is getting a big who can pass. Yes, we need rebounding and defense. But maintaining continuity on offense is paramount. We’re not going to become a big team and compete with the Lakers on those terms. We beat teams with ball movement. This is exactly how D’Antoni crafted his Phoenix teams and he got them pretty close to a title. For big men, he had Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw, and Channing Frye start at the 5 over the years. Diaw and Marion were excellent passers and very mobile. So is Gasol. Thats the blueprint we need. Its ok to be too small to rebound with them as long as they are too slow to maintain our pace. And, of course, we need to hit 3s.

  32. Z

    Re:Gasol

    In the NY Post today, Berman makes the first mainstream association between Marc Gasol and the Knicks. Here’s the quote:

    “If the Nets pull off the blockbuster multi-team trade and Anthony accepts a contract extension, the Knicks are expected to change the focus of this offseason to restricted free agent 7-foot-1 center Marc Gasol. The younger brother of the Lakers’ Pau, Gasol is the type of burly big man the roster lacks and team president Donnie Walsh covets.”

  33. Brian Cronin

    Dalembert is having a terrible season this year (which is why he’s available), but in the past he’s been an above-average player, so this looks to be a good “buy low” opportunity. Even now, having a terrible season, he has a higher rebound rate than every player on the Knicks.

  34. JR Sec 112

    Dalembert’s only value is his deal is expiring, so he would only be a 4 month rental. He’s a terrible fit for the system. If they are looking for a short term fix, might as well go after Camby. He’s a very good passer and his deal expires in ’11-12. Then they can pursue Dwight Howard.

  35. Brian Cronin

    If they are looking for a short term fix, might as well go after Camby. He’s a very good passer and his deal expires in ’11-12. Then they can pursue Dwight Howard.

    Dalembert can likely be acquired for Curry/Azu. Camby, I doubt Portland is going to trade period.

  36. Brian Cronin

    By the way, I suppose if I really devoted some time to it I could have achieved worse, but I somehow doubt I could have come up with a more awkwardly constructed sentence than “Camby, I doubt Portland is going to trade period.”

  37. JR Sec 112

    If the Blazers start to fade and with Roy’s career basically over, I dont see why they wouldnt want to unload Camby. Especially if Pryzbilla starts to get into better shape. Camby is 36 and still getting $9mm next year. Bigger problem is what the Knicks can offer.

  38. Brian Cronin

    Oh true, but the problem is that Portland is actually playing strong ball right now. They almost beat Miami last night and are 2 1/2 games up on the #9 team in the Western Conference. If they’re going to make the playoffs, they can’t trade Camby, right?

  39. Thomas B.

    Telfair? God please no. There are about 8 guys in the DL that are better points than Telfair. There are so many free agent points, why trade for such a bad one?

    Though I don’t love Rubio, I would send Randolph for his rights. That wont be enough. Several teams would send more for him. But Randolph next to Love could be the best rebounding tandem in the NBA. And Love’s scoring would cover Randolphs lack thereof. You’d have to add something to that mix–Walker or Douglas–but I wouldnt mind. Letting Rubio learn behind Felton isnt such a bad thing. With the way Williams is shooting you wont miss Douglas or Walker.

  40. Ben R

    I’d trade Randolph for Rubio. I’d even do something like Randolph, Walker, a future 1st, and 3 million for Rubio and filler.

    Rubio would be ideal, he would give us a perfect backup for Felton and give this team life after Amare. Rubio, Chandler, Gallo, Fields is a pretty oustanding group of young players.

  41. JR Sec 112

    True, they are playing good ball now. I wonder if Aldridge can keep it up over a season. Rockets and Grizzlies are right behind them. I just question their long term plan, considering Andre Miller is also 34. Their ceiling is the 7th seed and a 1st round exit. But maybe Paul Allen doesnt care. On another note, Nate McMillan is really a great coach to have them playing this well after Roy went down.

  42. Brian Cronin

    True, they are playing good ball now. I wonder if Aldridge can keep it up over a season. Rockets and Grizzlies are right behind them. I just question their long term plan, considering Andre Miller is also 34. Their ceiling is the 7th seed and a 1st round exit. But maybe Paul Allen doesnt care. On another note, Nate McMillan is really a great coach to have them playing this well after Roy went down.

    My guess is that

    A. They figure #7 in the West has a chance in the playoffs, as the top teams don’t look that good, especially if they get Roy back in time for the playoffs

    and

    B. They then figure to regroup next season when everyone is healthy. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if they re-signed Oden, since Allen doesn’t really mind blowing his money on the team.

  43. TDM

    Jimmy C: Obviously I’d rather wait to land a Deandre Jordan who, after watching the last few Clips games on League Pass, looks like he’s really coming into his own, particularly on the defensive end, where he’s been an absolute animal. But if we can fill both needs — backup C and PG — by wedging ourselves into this deal, and we can do so knowing confidently that NJ, even with Melo, isn’t sniffing the playoffs this year… should we do it?  (Quote)

    Couldn’t agree more – I’ve been touting DAJ for a while now. The guy is solid. Unfortunately, he’s been playing so well lately, I think we may not be able to pry him away anymore.

    “TDM says:
    December 22, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    One guy that I’ve mentioned before that I think would be great for the Knicks is DeAndre Jordan from the Clips. He’s coming off his contract year, so Sterling probably wont want to pay him and may let him walk. Donnie may be able to get him for a song.”

  44. BigBlueAL

    I read a quote today where a reporter apparently asked Avery Johnson if he dreams about getting Melo and he said no, he dreams about his Center grabbing 10 rebounds in a game.

    Brook Lopez makes Amar’e look like Dennis Rodman on the boards.

  45. Brian Cronin

    I think Lopez could be good, but yeah, I have not seen enough to ever want to form a blockbuster around acquiring him. Heck, I think I’d take Gallo over him at this point.

    I mean, a .528 TS% on a 27% Usage with a 10.3% Rebound Rate?!? That’s not very good, especially for a third year player.

    Heck, Gallo’s Rebound Rate is not even that far behind Lopez’s!!

  46. JR Sec 112

    Brian Cronin: My guess is that A. They figure #7 in the West has a chance in the playoffs, as the top teams don’t look that good, especially if they get Roy back in time for the playoffs andB. They then figure to regroup next season when everyone is healthy. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if they re-signed Oden, since Allen doesn’t really mind blowing his money on the team.  (Quote)

    Roy and Oden are done. They dont have the horses to make it out of the first round without Roy. Not this year or next. They need to start over.

    Deandre Jordan will be a RFA, so just as likely they get him as Gasol, and I would rather have Gasol given how raw Jordan is on offensive.

    That said, if we were willing to take Baron Davis’ horrific contract, who knows? Clipps would love that – they could throw Bledsoe in at the point and have Kaman play C. Question is, is it worth killing our cap space for the next 2 years to have Jordan at C and Baron Davis as backup PG?

  47. Z-man

    Hard for me to get too worked up about this game; a win would have been nice, but whatever. Bottom line is, even if we go 55-27, you would certainly expect a road game vs. the largely intact defending world champion Lakers to be in the 27 column.

  48. Ben R

    The problem with Jordan is he is truly an inept offensive player. He is shooting less than 40% from the free throw line for his career. Plus he averages 3x as many turnovers than assists over his career. He is a solid defender/rebounder and he knows only to shoot inside so he is efficient but I don’t know if he has enough offensive skill to play in this system. Turiaf is no better a shooter but his passing makes up for it quite a bit.

    I would barely want brook lopez here if he was free. He is a poor rebounder and an inefficient player, I would rather have his brother, like TDM said, and he would be much easier to get.

    That Avery Johnson remark reminds of the Scott Skiles remark about Eddy Curry
    Reporter: “What could Eddy Curry do to improve his rebounding?”
    Skiles: “Jump”

  49. JR Sec 112

    he’s up to 47% this year. And he’s very young. He’s certainly a much better option than Dalembert. Baron Davis would also be very intriguing, much more than Nash in my opinion. I still like Gasol best, but Jordan would be interesting.

  50. Ben R

    If we could get Jordan cheaply I would do it but Baron’s contract for the next three years is too steep a price. As it is I wouldn’t be surprised if by this time next year Mozgov is a better player than Jordan.

  51. Z-man

    We need to remember that this Knicks team is very young and can (and needs to) get much better. The Lakers are who they are, the Celtics are who they are. We can rationalize losses like this one as stepping stones in our development for now. Now the young guns know that they have to man up if they want to compete with the big, rugged, superstar-laden teams. That said, we are unquestionably getting the attention of these teams. In the past, any win would be written off as a letdown by the elite team. Not so now, we are very far from being viewed as a guaranteed W by even the best teams in the league. They better come to play, or else…

  52. Resounding Rebounding

    Ben R: If we could get Jordan cheaply I would do it but Baron’s contract for the next three years is too steep a price. As it is I wouldn’t be surprised if by this time next year Mozgov is a better player than Jordan.  (Quote)

    I doubt it. Mosgov seems just as big and strong as Jordan but he’s not nearly as athletic and even before he got to the NBA Mosgov’s rebounding numbers weren`t very good. I`m confused about something. Is Jordan a restricted or unrestricted free agent at the end of this season? I though he was an unrestricted free agent because he was a 2nd round pick, just like Landry Fields will become an unrestricted free agent at the end of next season. Do I have the rules wrong?

  53. Brian Cronin

    I sure do love that trade, Z!

    I mean, of course it would never happen (especially since Denver somehow gives up more without getting anything extra and Detroit gets AR for doing nothing, really), but I would love it!

  54. TDM

    There is little to no chance that the Knicks will be able to land either Marc Gasol or Brook Lopez.

    I think Donnie should focus on guys that we may be able to get without giving up the farm – DAJ, RoLo, or if at all possible JaVale McGee.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=lopezro01&y1=2011&p2=jordade01&y2=2011&p3=mcgeeja01&y3=2011

    Lopez is behind Frye and Gortat on the depth chart. Although PHX indicated that RoLo would be starting the next 10 games with Gortat off the bench, I think they are just showcasing him for a trade. Gortat and Frye each have 3 years after this season left on their deals.

  55. Brian Cronin

    Is Jordan a restricted or unrestricted free agent at the end of this season? I though he was an unrestricted free agent because he was a 2nd round pick, just like Landry Fields will become an unrestricted free agent at the end of next season. Do I have the rules wrong?

    A non-first round draft pick with three years or fewer in the league is a restricted free agent (Marc Gasol, for instance).

    ETA: The “or fewer” part.

  56. JR Sec 112

    http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q37

    Jordan is restricted since in the league 3 years or less. Or at least thats my understanding. Apparently this issue also came up on a Pacers forum, as Pacers fans have been coveting him now that Hibbert is starting to fall apart a bit.

    Mosgov will be lucky to be in the league next year. He’s got very limited athleticism and low basketball IQ. Jordan is a beast.

  57. Resounding Rebounding

    Brian Cronin: A non-first round draft pick with three years in the league is a restricted free agent (Marc Gasol, for instance).  (Quote)

    I see. So, am I right that Fields is signed to a two year contract and if he isn’t signed to an extension, he`ll be an unrestricted free agent after next season (barring an CBA changes)?

  58. Brian Cronin

    No, I mistakenly left out the “or fewer” caveat. A non-first round pick in the league for three years or fewer is a restricted free agent. Hence Wesley Matthews being a restricted free agent after just one year in the league.

  59. Resounding Rebounding

    JR Sec 112: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q37Jordan is restricted since in the league 3 years or less. Or at least thats my understanding. Apparently this issue also came up on a Pacers forum, as Pacers fans have been coveting him now that Hibbert is starting to fall apart a bit. Mosgov will be lucky to be in the league next year. He’s got very limited athleticism and low basketball IQ. Jordan is a beast.  (Quote)

    I wasn`t really impressed with Jordan early on because he was basically an athletic but extremely raw big man with no skills and there seems to be at least one or two of those in every draft that get drafted in the late first and early second round based purely on their athleticism and they never seem to amount to much. Most of them don`t seem to be able to stay out of foul trouble. Jordan had the same problem. But now he’s become a productive player and that has me excited. I think the fact that Sterling is very cheap gives us a very good shot at acquiring him.

  60. Resounding Rebounding

    Brian Cronin: No, I mistakenly left out the “or fewer” caveat. A non-first round pick in the league for three years or fewer is a restricted free agent. Hence Wesley Matthews being a restricted free agent after just one year in the league.  (Quote)

    Okay, I understand it now.

  61. Z

    Brian Cronin: I sure do love that trade, Z!
    I mean, of course it would never happen (especially since Denver somehow gives up more without getting anything extra and Detroit gets AR for doing nothing, really), but I would love it!  

    Good points. But the trade machine doesn’t let you include draft picks, which would also be at play. Figure DEN would get the picks coming to them from NJ, plus Detroit gives them one for Randolph and the $13 mil they are saving off of Hamilton. (Plus, Denver was reticent to trade for Troy Murphy until the deadline because they didn’t want to pay for a salary throw in, but Curry is already paid for in advance, so that may be a plus in their eyes).

    But, of course, it’s not gonna happen– mostly because the Knicks would never facilitate Carmelo to NJ.

  62. JR Sec 112

    We have a good shot especially if we take on Baron Davis’ contract. Its widely publicized Sterling hates Baron. If Baron controlled his shot selection, he would be a great fit. He can also be a good defender and also runs the break well. Obvously, nothing has been discussed, but it would be very intriguing. Baron could fit in like Arenas does for Orlando.

  63. d-mar

    Regarding the Melo situation, I think the reason Nuggets management won’t talk to the Knicks is not that they don’t have the “assets”, but they are worried about the ultimate success of any team Melo joins and how it will affect their legacy. You send him to the Nets, they become a 40-45 win team that won’t make much noise in the playoffs with their current roster. You send him to the Knicks, they become a force to be reckoned with in the East with an outside shot at the Finals. It’s a short-sighted approach, but they’re a couple of new guys in Denver and probably do worry about these kinds of things.

    Also, NJ is supposedly anxious to get Melo in front of Prokhorov and Jay-Z to sell him on the Nets, didn’t we hear this same BS during the LeBron sweepstakes? The young Russian owner and the rap star blowing away potential FA”s with their youth and “dynamism”? Give me a break, unless Prokhorov plans to suit up at PF and Jay Z at PG, how much difference does ownership really make in a salary capped league?

  64. rama

    Z, I would weep with joy if that trade went down.

    OK, not quite. But almost. What a powerhouse team we’d be! Without giving up practically anything!

    And there’s almost reason for every team to do it; the Nets are already keen to do it and need to be relevent again, the Pistons get out from under some nasty salaries and rebuild quicker, and the Nuggets get lots of draft picks, a decent point, and a potential star 4, and the cap room to do more in the coming years.

    In the end, I think the Nuggets have to give up a little too much for it to go down, but I can’t see the Knicks standing in the way of a trade like that – what are we really losing, our third-best SF and a potential star in AR? Nene already IS a star.

  65. Brian Cronin

    how much difference does ownership really make in a salary capped league?

    As we have seen over the last decade, a lot.

  66. Resounding Rebounding

    d-mar: Regarding the Melo situation, I think the reason Nuggets management won’t talk to the Knicks is not that they don’t have the “assets”, but they are worried about the ultimate success of any team Melo joins and how it will affect their legacy. You send him to the Nets, they become a 40-45 win team that won’t make much noise in the playoffs with their current roster. You send him to the Knicks, they become a force to be reckoned with in the East with an outside shot at the Finals. It’s a short-sighted approach, but they’re a couple of new guys in Denver and probably do worry about these kinds of things.Also, NJ is supposedly anxious to get Melo in front of Prokhorov and Jay-Z to sell him on the Nets, didn’t we hear this same BS during the LeBron sweepstakes? The young Russian owner and the rap star blowing away potential FA”s with their youth and “dynamism”? Give me a break, unless Prokhorov plans to suit up at PF and Jay Z at PG, how much difference does ownership really make in a salary capped league?  (Quote)

    I don`t really want Melo and I read that now the Nets wouldn`t have to meet with Melo to get him to sign the extension. But this demonstrates why the Nets need Carmelo so badly. They are the only team in the NBA that uses their owners to advertise and promote the team.

  67. BigBlueAL

    DeAndre Jordan and the word “beast” in the same sentence is being used a bit too frequently around here. lol

  68. d-mar

    Brian Cronin:
    As we have seen over the last decade, a lot.  

    Brian, let me clarify that statement, I didn’t mean in terms of the success or failure of a franchise, but more in terms of luring players to teams. Sure, Dolan’s a moron, but he still owns the Knicks, and they’ve become a very attractive destination for FA”s. I guess my point was that whether you’re a millionaire or billionaire, ugly or handsome, Russian or American, with a salary cap, it comes down to where a FA sees his best chance of winning, not who the owner is.

  69. JK47

    What’s up with Nene’s contract? If he opts out of that last year of his contract with Denver– and maybe he will now that Denver appears to be headed to Rebuilding Land– he’d make a pretty fearsome frontcourt partner for Amar’e.

    C Nene
    PF Amar’e Stoudemire
    SF Danilo Gallinari
    SG Landry Fields
    PG Ray Felton
    Bench: Wilson Chandler, 2011 draft pick, Extra E, Turiaf, etc.

    You’d use the 2011 draft pick on a backup PG (Kemba Walker? Jimmer Freddette?)

    That’d be a pretty saucy team– we’d have great length, we’d be loaded with super-efficient offensive players, the rebounding situation would be better…

  70. latke

    Re: DeAndre Jordan

    Jordan is a restricted free agent, and the Clippers have full bird rights for him. This is because he’ll have been with them for 3 years at the end of this season. Fields, however, will have only been with the knicks for 2 years when he hits free agency, which qualifies him for the somewhat bizarre “Gilbert Arenas Provision”. Essentially, this means that teams can only sign Fields to offer sheets that start at the NBA avg salary (a little under $6 million probably) with an 8% raise year one, then up to a max amount for the final 3 years. I don’t entirely understand how this exception works if the knicks have several other free agents, but it sounds like they’d be able to resign him no matter what.

  71. bluemax

    JK47
    January 10, 2011 at 7:28 pm
    What’s up with Nene’s contract? If he opts out of that last year of his contract with Denver– and maybe he will now that Denver appears to be headed to Rebuilding Land– he’d make a pretty fearsome frontcourt partner for Amar’e.

    My sentiments exactly! why would he stay in DEN and why wouldn’t he look for a new contract as a FA at the end of the season? I think the Knicks would be well served targeting nene right now (assuming Melo in NJ or anywhere else) . Maybe DEN might be willing to trade him right now for fear to loose him for nothing at the end of the season. nene would fit as a big that can run, rebound and provide offense when needed.

  72. Brian Cronin

    Ah, the Billups bluster about not wanting to be traded to New Jersey now made sense. He apparently was worried that the Nets would not guarantee him his 2011-12 team option (worth $14 million). He’s apparently been assured that if they did trade for him, they would guarantee the option, so he’s now happy with the deal. That makes his stance make a lot more sense.

    I am loving how the Nuggets are trying to get about a gazillion different teams involved in this deal, and looking to dump Harrington and Renaldo Balkman in the process (Balkman must be the worst practicer ever outside of AR – he puts up great numbers when he plays but the Nuggets never play him).

  73. Z

    Billups can whine all he wants about a buyout, but it doesn’t effect the trade at all. He doesn’t have a no trade clause, so I’m not sure why he’s saying anything at all. Anthony is the only person the Nets care about to be “happy” with a trade to Jersey. The Nets would be stupid to guarantee his last year because his quasi-expiring contract’s value trumps his basketball value. (If Leon Rose is serious about maneuvering Chris Paul to join Anthony in NJ/Brooklyn, and Paul does his part to force it, Billups would have to be the “expiring” centerpiece). (Furtherfore, we all heard Eddy Curry try to demand a buyout. Hahaha. If it’s not in the interests of the team, they don’t happen).

  74. TDM

    Varejao is now out for the season, which means the Cavs joins the growing list of teams looking for a big man.

  75. Brian Cronin

    But Billups’ expiring contract would need to be guaranteed for the Nets to use it to acquire Paul.

    Billups just wants to make sure they give him the $14 million option for 2011-12.

  76. Brian Cronin

    While obviously the idea of them dealing Melo to the Knicks just to spite the Nets is ridiculous, I can sort of understand how annoying it is for the Nuggets to see every (supposedly classified) move they make broadcast all over the internet.

  77. Z

    Brian Cronin: But Billups’ expiring contract would need to be guaranteed for the Nets to use it to acquire Paul.  

    Not if Leon Rose is able to get Paul out of NOLA by draft day this year. It may be a long shot, but why not keep that flexibility open if you’re the Nets? Billups’ contract is non-guaranteed until 5 days after the season ends. Players can be traded as soon as the season ends, a la Kevin Garnett. Seems like there is no reason Jersey would make Billups any promises that would hinder their ability to improve their team, especially considering Billups has no leverage except the ability to pout.

  78. Frank

    Brian Cronin:
    As we have seen over the last decade, a lot.  

    I think the last decade has mostly shown how important a GM is — obviously Dolan should have dumped Isiah earlier, but if Isiah was a good GM, there’d be no issue. As much as I can’t stand Dolan, and as much as maybe this move was forced by David Stern, Dolan DID eventually fire Isiah and hire Donnie Walsh — a move that may lead to a decade of Knick resurgence. His biggest mistake may have been to believe Isiah that the Knicks were back when they briefly sniffed the #8 seed. That mistake probably cost 2 more years of suckiness. But overall, Isiah was only around for 4+ years (late 2003-2008ish) even though it felt like 462345 years. He also hired Layden, but at the time Layden was thought to be a good hire.

    Honestly, I can’t stand Dolan but I think he’s probably somewhere in the middle of owner hate-fulness. He’s definitely better than the Sarvers, Sterlings, and non-owners of the Hornets. At least he’ll spend the money and not sell draft picks that become Rajon Rondo. The whole Marbury thing leaves a horrible taste of course.

    I think an owner has to make a good GM choice, then just throw money at whatever that GM wants. Hopefully he’s learned his lessons and will either let Donnie choose the next GM or hire someone with a level head and good experience.

    Re: the Nuggets front office – I actually think they’re doing a great job. No one has yet been able to get Melo to commit to signing with anyone but the Knicks, and even though they have ZERO leverage without that, they have this ridiculously huge offer from the Nets on the table – AND ARE ASKING FOR MORE!!! I think they know that Prokhorov will basically force Billy King to trade the entire house for Melo, and are just pushing this as far as they can.

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