Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Friday, August 1, 2014

Knicks trade Marcus Camby, Steve Novak, and multiple picks for Rajon Rondo

Just kidding it’s Andrea Bargnani.

League sources abound are reporting that the Knicks and Raptors are finalizing a deal that would send the much-maligned Bargnani to New York in exchange for Stave Novak, Marcus Camby, a future first round pick (2016, over which Denver maintains swap rights), two future second rounders, and a pencil sharpener.

The pencil sharpener works just fine.

This totally came out of nowhere. He we were still kvetching pathetic about drafting a slumping college shooter ahead of oodles of upside, and then, this:

Screen Shot 2013-06-30 at 6.58.44 PM

So… Twitter went berserk, and for a lot of right reasons: Bargnani has never lived up to billing (#1 pick in 2005), is a worse defender than Amar’e Stoudemire, and only a marginally better rebounder than Steve Novak.

On the flip side, he’s 27, and once boasted a TS% of 56% and a 3P% of 41%. Both of those happened five years ago.

On top of battling through a slew of injuries over the past couple of seasons, Bargnani has been the target of considerable resentment from Toronto’s fanbase, who have long criticized the Italian forward’s propensity for disappearing — to say nothing of his weirdly atrophying basketball skills.

So nothing has been finalized as of this moment, but the degree to which everyone is flipping the fuck out leads me to believe this will likely get done before our Monday commutes.

Let’s try not to make it head-on into a guard rail, alright?

More ruminations forthcoming.

86 comments on “Knicks trade Marcus Camby, Steve Novak, and multiple picks for Rajon Rondo

  1. ephus

    As I said on the other thread, I am optimistic about this trade. Bargnani can be an effective offensive player if paired with STAT, because he will draw the opposing 5 away from the rim. And the Knicks are not giving up much of value. Novak cannot make opposing defenses pay for over-aggressive closeouts, because he simply cannot attack the rim (despite making it his offseason priority). Camby could not get off the bench even when the Knicks were trolling the D-League for any breathing center. And the 2016 first round pick could not be a lottery pick for the Knicks unless both the Knicks and the Nuggets missed the playoffs. In all likelihood, that pick would be around 18 – which usually means a well-regarded guard who may or may not turn into a rotation player.

  2. JK47

    Even if Bargnani and STAT were the second coming of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Larry Bird on offense, they’d give it all back and more on the defensive end. I can’t think of a worse hypothetical defensive front court than those two. That’s a front court only Isiah Thomas could love.

  3. er

    Reviewing some highlights of Bargnani on Youtube, i can see hes slightly less athletic than gallo but still pretty athletic for a 7ft. 10-15 mins a game from him to stretch the floor could be fruitful. I just wonder what our rotation will look like with the additions of Hardaway, Lesilie, and Bargs. weve also gotten quite a bit younger losing kidd,KT, and Camby for these 3 lol

  4. Brian Cronin

    Here’s the thing that gets me – does anyone think this is a good trade? No, right? So are we really all arguing on the degree of how bad it was? I mean, it is better than arguing over trades from four seasons ago, but it still seems kind of odd. “I think it is bad.” “Oh yeah, well I think it is really bad!”

  5. er

    Brian Cronin:
    Here’s the thing that gets me – does anyone think this is a good trade? No, right? So are we really all arguing on the degree of how bad it was? I mean, it is better than arguing over trades from four seasons ago, but it still seems kind of odd. “I think it is bad.” “Oh yeah, well I think it is really bad!”

    Its bad because of the picks. But if you think about that 2016 pick as a trade for the space that novak would have been eating up that can help with digestion. Also he will be motivated(hopefully) and he will have role here. In TO he was more or less a franchise player, here he can do his thing score and go sit back on the bench, so that could help. Another thing i was thinking about is who is gonna play him? If hes out there with melo it wont be the best wing defender, and if hes out there with say melo and jr then what. Same can be said if hes out there with melo and stat

  6. jon abbey

    “It’s worth noting that Bargnani is represented by Leon Rose, whose clients include the Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony and J.R. Smith”

  7. Loathing

    Actually, I don’t think it’s all THAT bad. Sure, we lose some potentially useless pics (how often do second rounders pan out?), an old center and a one-dimensional corner three shooter for a big goof who can’t shoot, rebound, defend or anything else (according to you guys at least. :P) but at least his contract runs out sooner than the other two…is that worth this? Apparently Glen Grunwald does. I think so too…besides, stranger things have happened.

  8. maxwell_3g

    JK47:
    Even if Bargnani and STAT were the second coming of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Larry Bird on offense, they’d give it all back and more on the defensive end. I can’t think of a worse hypothetical defensive front court than those two. That’s a front court only Isiah Thomas could love.

    preach my brother. I NEVER want to see those 2 on the court together without either a rejuvenated chandler or the ghost of Bill Russell out there with them

  9. StatsTeacher

    Haven’t posted in months, still read here more/less on a weekly basis. Last year, I felt like an idiot saying the Kidd, Camby, and Rasheed signings were sooooooo stupid, and letting Lin walk was stupid as well. I got a bit of crap for stating those signings were very risky — and that not matching Lin was also risky. At the time (through first 15 games or so) it looked like I was wrong, and that the Knicks front office must know something/evaluate talent at a level superior to my eye/stats check test. I left, hat in hand thinking you guys were right.

    I don’t think I was wrong anymore.

    Now the Bargs trade — the Knicks are giving PICKS for Bargs. What morons. Even a 2nd rounder, in the hands of Morey or RC Buford is a HUGE asset. Parsons (2nd round) Ginobli (2nd round) Parker (26th pick) — guys that actually evaluate talent can make a killing. Look what the Sixers just got in the 2nd round — the leading rebounder in the NCAA last year.

    The Knicks front office has to be the worst decision making group in the history of sports, IMHO.

  10. danvt

    Well, he’s up in two years. Didn’t Novak have a third year coming? That’s all I got right now. He hurt his elbow. How bad? Shooting stroke altering bad? How about the knees and ankles? Any chance we get a semblance vintage athleticism from him?

  11. maxwell_3g

    lets be honest. I believe that novak has 3 years left on his contract, right. this trade is all about timing it up so that all contracts come off 2 years from now, without that novak contrct being stuck there.
    also note, when signing old players, don’t give them multiple years.
    also note, when signing you own players who are coming off of a good season, but are one dimensional and have no record of success, it may be your system!! Don’t overpay!! this could be an omen for cope, but I actually think he at least has 2 dimensions

  12. maxwell_3g

    if we gets prignioni back, I think legal name changes to bargs and prigs should be strongly encouraged

  13. er

    i just read that the 2014 2nd round pick was via OKC. Does anyone know if we still have ours?

  14. er

    er:
    i just read that the 2014 2nd round pick was via OKC. Does anyone know if we still have ours?

    answered my own question:

    2014 second round draft pick from Sacramento
    Sacramento’s 2014 2nd round pick to New York (via Boston) protected for selections 31-55 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Sacramento’s obligation to New York will be extinguished) [Boston-Sacramento-Toronto, 2/19/2009 and then Boston-New York, 2/18/2010]

    2014 second round draft pick from Oklahoma City
    Oklahoma City’s 2014 2nd round pick to New York [New York-Oklahoma City, 2/21/2013]

    2013 second round draft pick to Washington
    New York’s 2013 2nd round pick to Washington [Dallas-New York-Washington, 12/10/2011]

    2014 first round draft pick to Denver
    New York’s 2014 1st round pick to Denver [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011]; Denver may convey this pick to Orlando (see Denver Debits)

    2014 second round draft pick to Houston
    New York’s 2014 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New York, 7/11/2012]

    2015 second round draft pick to Houston
    New York’s 2015 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New York, 7/11/2012]

    2016 first round draft pick to Denver
    Denver has the right to swap its 2016 1st round pick for New York’s 2016 1st round pick [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011]

    2016 second round draft pick to Portland
    New York’s 2016 2nd round pick to Portland protected for selections 31-37 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then New York’s obligation to Portland will be extinguished) [New York-

  15. Z-man

    Well, I think I had just mentioned how nice it would be to get rid of the Novak and Camby contracts, say, for Lin. Losing the draft picks is what makes this deal smell, but there’s another way to look at it. We all look at 2nd round picks as valuable because of the occasional hidden gem or diamond in the rough you find there. However, recent history has demonstrated that these types are findable in other ways. Lin, Copeland, Novak, Prigioni, and Mozgov were all acquired outside the draft.

    It also seems that more and more rotation-level players are available for $ between the mini-mid-level and the vet’s minimum. So, in the short term, not sure how much 2nd round picks are worth. Last year, not a single 2nd rounder made an impact and none of those guys are likely to make an impact as sophomores either. So all in all, I’m not too bent out of shape about this trade, just think we could have gotten a better player fot the same package.

  16. Owen

    This is insane.

    I feel like I am in some sort of nightmare and in the next scene aliens destroy New York.

    WTF?

    Seriously, Bargnani?

    Bargnani?

    Why don’t you just shit in my mouth? I would rather that than watch Bargnani.

    Seriously, wtf?!?

    Insane….

  17. StatsTeacher

    Jae Crowder and Draymond Green were drafted in rd 2 last year — solid players. Festus Ezeli was the last pick in rd 1 and even though he is offensively limited, GS loves both him and Green. I watched 60+ GS games this year — those guys play HARD and earn time on the floor.

    Crowder is going to start this year for the Mavs — not sure if that is good or bad for the Mavs though! lol

    BTW, the Rockets are not shopping Lin, Morey has stated 20 times that the plan is to add a FA. Nothing is impossible, but I have listened to 5-8 interviews on podcast this year with Morey, he does lay out his plan if you read between the lines. The Rockets really want Parosns, Harden, Lin, Howard and Asik to start with Beverley, Garcia (coming back mini-MLE) DMo, TJones, Smith off bench. Morey believes that team can compete for a championship. They just need Howard and it looks better than 50/50 right now (t-minus 3+ hours to Olajuwon, McHale + Drexler full court press in LA) I happen to agree.

  18. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Great trade. He got a huge contract, so he must be worth it.

    I mean, you guys know that the average fan only has access to, like, 10% of what Grunwald has, right? He must be awesome. Trust me, NBA GMs know more about basketball than you do.

  19. ess-dog

    Ooof. This makes it hurt even more:

    The Blazers will send two future second round picks and the draft rights to Kostas Papanikolau and Marko Todorovic for Robinson.

    bye bye Papa.

  20. ephus

    If the Knicks had cap space, they too could have traded for Thomas Robinson. But since they are capped out and they did not have non-guaranteed contracts to trade, they could not accommodate Houston’s desire for more cap space to get Howard plus another impact free agent.

    Under the current circumstances, I like the Bargnani trade (even if I am the only one).

  21. JK47

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Great trade. He got a huge contract, so he must be worth it.

    I mean, you guys know that the average fan only has access to, like, 10% of what Grunwald has, right? He must be awesome. Trust me, NBA GMs know more about basketball than you do.

    When Grunwald signed Camby and Novak, he was probably thinking, “These guys are awesome assets. A year down the road I’ll be able to package them and some draft picks for a real difference-maker like former #1 pick Andrea Bargnani.”

  22. er

    ephus:
    If the Knicks had cap space, they too could have traded for Thomas Robinson.But since they are capped out and they did not have non-guaranteed contracts to trade, they could not accommodate Houston’s desire for more cap space to get Howard plus another impact free agent.

    Under the current circumstances, I like the Bargnani trade (even if I am the only one).

    im halfway with you. Bargs may be a douche but he has potential. The same cant be said for our two departed friends. 3 picks still hurt tho

  23. ess-dog

    Ok ok, all jokes and anger and barfing aside, we still have a line up of:

    Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson

    With a bench of possibly: JR, Prig, Bargs, K-Mart, and Cope.

    Plus, whoever sticks from summer league.

    Plus, we still have our mini MLE.

    Hey, beats all the D. Lee / Nate teams we’ve had by a mile, and honestly, it’s better than the Danilo/Wilson team we blew up to get here.

    I mean, we were a top 4 team in the east last year. Championship? Not likely. But at least we’ll win a bunch of games.

  24. er

    ess-dog:
    Ok ok, all jokes and anger and barfing aside, we still have a line up of:

    Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson

    With a bench of possibly: JR, Prig, Bargs, K-Mart, and Cope.

    Plus, whoever sticks from summer league.

    Plus, we still have our mini MLE.

    Hey, beats all the D. Lee / Nate teams we’ve had by a mile, and honestly, it’s better than the Danilo/Wilson team we blew up to get here.

    I mean, we were a top 4 team in the east last year. Championship? Not likely. But at least we’ll win a bunch of games.

    dont forget timmy

  25. Robtachi

    My theory is that this is the Knicks/Morey’s revenge plot against the Raptors for pulling that Landry Fields/Jeremy Lin/Steve Nash bullshit last year. Knicks will suddenly renege on this deal and swing one with the Rockets for Lin once the Rockets have sewn up the Dwight deal, leaving Toronto to twist in the wind with Bargnani’s contract.

    Guys?

  26. StatsTeacher

    ess-dog:
    Ok ok, all jokes and anger and barfing aside, we still have a line up of:

    Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson

    With a bench of possibly: JR, Prig, Bargs, K-Mart, and Cope.

    Plus, whoever sticks from summer league.

    Plus, we still have our mini MLE.

    Hey, beats all the D. Lee / Nate teams we’ve had by a mile, and honestly, it’s better than the Danilo/Wilson team we blew up to get here.

    I mean, we were a top 4 team in the east last year. Championship? Not likely. But at least we’ll win a bunch of games.

    Are you sure Prigs and JR are coming back? A savvy GM (there are a few out there, like about 20 or so) could poach those guys for not very much $

  27. Z-man

    What is ironic is that we acquired one of the worst defensive forwards in the league for a supposedly defensive-minded coach.

  28. KnickfaninNJ

    Actually, I like the trade overall. I am only expecting Bargnani to be a rotation player, not a starter, and he’ll be overpaid for that, but that won’t affect the Knicks financial flexibility. We actually get rid of Camby’s contract and have less years committed to Bargnani than we had to Novak. It also means we don’t have to re-sign Copeland, which is good because that leaves more financial ability to re-sign Prigioni and Smith, who are more important to the team than either Novak or Camby. Of course I don’t like giving up the draft picks, but the first round one is the one Denver can swap. But if it weren’t for the picks this trade would be excellent. And Bargnani has upside. It could be his recent stats were due to injury, and maybe to being the first option in Toronto on a lousy team.

  29. chrisk06811

    Bargnani is owed $23M over 2 years. Camby/Novak are owed $19M over 3 years. Felton has a player option for 2015/16, Shumpy has a qualifying offer, and that’s it.

    I’m sure we had to include the 1 to get it done. I could care less about 2nd rounders; you can buy those. We didnt have one this year, and we signed leslie, who we probably would have taken 50th.

    Novak / Camby have NO upside. Bargnani a least averaged 20 pts a game 2 years in a row. If he doesn’t work out this year, he’s got 1 yr left and becomes expiring contract trade bait.

    There’s a lot more good here than bad.

    One thing that bugs me…Toronto fans HATED him. The only other player they ever hated was Vince Carter. That’s not a good sign

  30. ephus

    Robtachi:
    My theory is that this is the Knicks/Morey’s revenge plot against the Raptors for pulling that Landry Fields/Jeremy Lin/Steve Nash bullshit last year.Knicks will suddenly renege on this deal and swing one with the Rockets for Lin once the Rockets have sewn up the Dwight deal, leaving Toronto to twist in the wind with Bargnani’s contract.

    Guys?

    Someone (Alan Hahn?) tweeted that the deal has to be completed tonight to be kosher under the salary cap. So I do not think this theory is plausible.

    It’s a nice thought, though.

  31. StatsTeacher

    maxwell_3g:
    PAPA just got traded to Houston in the Thomas Robinson deal.Morey is a beast

    Morey got 2 players (with serious possible upside) and 2 picks for Robinson and zero salary cap hit. Double Beast.

  32. Loathing

    Ok, someone needs to say it…

    …are the Knicks gathering assets for a Dwight Howard sign’n'trade? Not like the Lakers would ever rebuild, like the Knicks…soooooo……..

  33. KnickfaninNJ

    One thing that bugs me…Toronto fans HATED him.The only other player they ever hated was Vince Carter.That’s not a good sign

    Well Carter eventually became a popular role player with Dallas and I don’t think he was hated in NJ.

  34. ess-dog

    Frankly, our weakest position is starting freaking point guard STILL.

    I’d rather go after Patrick Beverley or CJ Watson and start one of those guys over RayRay.

  35. maxwell_3g

    things are heating up today. Terrence Williams was just waived by the C’s. Anyone interested in a possible vet min offer for him? would bring youth and athleticism. showed signed of being a finisher in the playoffs, but that may have been an outlier for him

  36. maxwell_3g

    er: answered my own question:

    2014 second round draft pick from Sacramento
    Sacramento’s 2014 2nd round pick to New York (via Boston) protected for selections 31-55 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Sacramento’s obligation to New York will be extinguished) [Boston-Sacramento-Toronto, 2/19/2009 and then Boston-New York, 2/18/2010]

    2014 second round draft pick from Oklahoma City
    Oklahoma City’s 2014 2nd round pick to New York [New York-Oklahoma City, 2/21/2013]

    2013 second round draft pick to Washington
    New York’s 2013 2nd round pick to Washington [Dallas-New York-Washington, 12/10/2011]

    2014 first round draft pick to Denver
    New York’s 2014 1st round pick to Denver [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011]; Denver may convey this pick to Orlando (see Denver Debits)

    2014 second round draft pick to Houston
    New York’s 2014 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New York, 7/11/2012]

    2015 second round draft pick to Houston
    New York’s 2015 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New York, 7/11/2012]

    2016 first round draft pick to Denver
    Denver has the right to swap its 2016 1st round pick for New York’s 2016 1st round pick [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011]

    2016 second round draft pick to Portland
    New York’s 2016 2nd round pick to Portland protected for selections 31-37 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then New York’s obligation to Portland will be extinguished) [New York-

    so we now have exactly 1 pick in the next 3 drafts. awesome. by the way, that sacramento pick that we own is the dumbest asset that I have ever seen

  37. Loathing

    ess-dog: So then we sign Martell Webster to the mini MLE.

    Rather have Vince Carter at the vet’s minimum…or some other SG that’s ancient….maybe bring Starks out of retirement?

  38. maxwell_3g

    Z-man:
    What is ironic is that we acquired one of the worst defensive forwards in the league for a supposedly defensive-minded coach.

    actually, that may be the silver lining for me. maybe the belief is that woodson can prevail upon him to play defense. of course, some guys don’t have it in them (see Woodson’s lack of any effect on Novak)

  39. ess-dog

    Loathing: Rather have Vince Carter at the vet’s minimum…or some other SG that’s ancient….maybe bring Starks out of retirement?

    At least neither of those guys will “shit the tub” two playoffs in a row.

  40. er

    maxwell_3g: actually, that may be the silver lining for me.maybe the belief is that woodson can prevail upon him to play defense.of course, some guys don’t have it in them (see Woodson’s lack of any effect on Novak)

    bargnani is actually decent on ball. Help D is another story

  41. maxwell_3g

    er:
    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/228495/Rockets-Prepared-To-Trade-Lin-Asik-As-Confidence-In-Chances-With-Dwight-Increase

    who the hell would trade for lin?

    what I hate about these teams is that they bend over backwords for diva players, and if it doesn’t work, they will go crawling back to asik. asik was really good for them last year and I would rather have his hard working, improving game and other assets then a declining, injured, pampered howard.

  42. er

    maxwell_3g: what I hate about these teams is that they bend over backwords for diva players, and if it doesn’t work, they will go crawling back to asik.asik was really good for them last year and I would rather have his hard working, improving game and other assets then a declining, injured, pampered howard.

    LMAO how is Howard declining? And teams bend over backwards because they are franchise changing players Howard will change Houston Asik did not. Dont hate the player hate the game

  43. Loathing

    ess-dog:
    I meant Lin and Asik for Ray and Bargs. Who says no? Besides the Rockets, I mean.

    Bargs wouldn’t be a bad fit with a Howard-esque Rockets team as a stretch 4, and Felts would be a good facilitator/fourth option. I’d do it if I’m Morey. :P

  44. BigBlueAL

    News of this trade have people saying Knicks will win less games than the Wizards next season. Over exaggerate much??

  45. Brian Cronin

    so we now have exactly 1 pick in the next 3 drafts. awesome. by the way, that sacramento pick that we own is the dumbest asset that I have ever seen

    Those types of picks exist because teams have to get something in return in trades, so they come up with these conditional picks that have very little chance of ever actually happening.

  46. Brian Cronin

    News of this trade have people saying Knicks will win less games than the Wizards next season. Over exaggerate much??

    Where did you see that? That’s hilarious.

  47. er

    So apparently the snag is: Due to the fact that Barfs’ salary increases and our package’s salary decreases for this upcoming season, the salaries no longer match and the knicks would have to add value to the trade LOL

  48. Loathing

    er:
    So apparently the snag is: Due to the fact that Barfs’ salary increases and our package’s salary decreases for this upcoming season, the salaries no longer match and the knicks would have to add value to the trade LOL

    So how about STAT for Bargnani and Fields?

  49. Brian Cronin

    what is the salary on Lin and Asik? Is it the 5 or 8 million teams have to match?

    $5 million.

  50. er

    yellowboy90:
    what is the salary on Lin and Asik? Is it the 5 or 8 million teams have to match?

    I think its 5……therein lies the problem. They have to pay 15 next year lmao

  51. JK47

    er:
    So apparently the snag is: Due to the fact that Barfs’ salary increases and our package’s salary decreases for this upcoming season, the salaries no longer match and the knicks would have to add value to the trade LOL

    No problem, just throw in Shump.

  52. JK47

    I really do hope the “poison pill” part of Lin’s contract makes him unmovable, and results in Howard not going to the Rockets. That’s what you get for being dicks.

  53. Brian Cronin

    No problem, just throw in Shump.

    Seriously, though, what else do the Knicks actually have to trade? Do they have anyone else under contract at all besides their starting five?

  54. er

    JK47: No problem, just throw in Shump.

    i just realized i wrote “Barfs” instead of Bargs…………i surmise that captures the feeling of most knick fans however

  55. Owen

    My problem with this trade is I don’t want to see Andrea Bargnani play. He is horrible.

    I understand the garbage in, garbage out concept.

    Bargs is just not my kind of garbage.

  56. ephus

    As one of the few people on this thread who liked this trade, I am shaking my head at the Knicks front office. If you think that this is a possibility, you have to call the league office at the start of the day and ask for the drop-dead hour to get something done. This is really bad execution.

  57. yellowboy90

    Brian Cronin: $5 million.

    Would anyone offer the Bargs pkg plus a 2018 1st to Houston for Lin and Asik? That would make Tyson expendable and would give you a chance to recoup your picks. Everything still comes off in 2015.

  58. yellowboy90

    Brian Cronin: Seriously, though, what else do the Knicks actually have to trade? Do they have anyone else under contract at all besides their starting five?

    They can S&T a vet min can’t they or What about A.J. or Leslie. Does that count?

  59. Brian Cronin

    They can S&T a vet min can’t they or What about A.J. or Leslie. Does that count?

    Oh yeah, good call. It better not be Prigs!

  60. jon abbey

    Owen:
    My problem with this trade is I don’t want to see Andrea Bargnani play. He is horrible.

    I understand the garbage in, garbage out concept.

    Bargs is just not my kind of garbage.

    Owen and I in full agreement on something hoops-related, this is a rare day. :)

  61. johnno

    ephus: As one of the few people on this thread who liked this trade,

    Add me to the short list of people who really like this trade. If he is healthy, Bargnani is one of the most versatile offensive big men in the league. He is like a rich man’s Chris Copeland and everyone on this site is terrified that the Knicks might lose Copeland.

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