Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, October 20, 2014

Knicks to hold media conference call with Walsh today at 1:30pm

I’ll be covering the conference call and updating this post with important info as it comes in.

129 comments on “Knicks to hold media conference call with Walsh today at 1:30pm

  1. Thomas B. Post author

    I am in! Sitting through a music hold while we wait for the conference to start. Nice music. Classical strings and brass. “Allegretto” by Schubert would be my guess.

  2. ess-dog

    This is all weirding me out. I bet Dolan throws megabucks at Jax to GM, fires D’Antoni, and lets Jax install a puppet coach like Shaw.

  3. Thomas B. Post author

    We have begun.
    Howard Beck asks: ” Why did you decide to walk away?”

    Donnie Walsh: “Became apparent to me that a multi-year arrangement would be more than I was ready to give. Jim (Dolan) wanted multi-year. I wasnt sure that I could give that.
    I will stay on as a consultant.”

  4. Thomas B. Post author

    Donnie Walsh: “I can only do this job one way: full forward, 24/7.”

  5. Thomas B. Post author

    DW: “Not sure if I could give it my all over a 2 or more year period.”

  6. Thomas B. Post author

    Allan Hahn Newsday asks “Was this mutual?”

    DW: “yes, we agreed that we needed someone that could give 24/7 for the next 2 plus years.”

    DW: “I loved working here. Jim (Dolan) treated me very well. No basis to rumors of in fighting. Did not agree on everything but both wanted what was best for the team.”

  7. Thomas B. Post author

    DW: “I knew that I would not win a championship during my time as team pres. I do expect to win while I am with team.”

    Hahn: ” Have you talked to Jim Dolan about your replacement?”

    DW: “Yes, I cant give names right now.”

  8. Thomas B. Post author

    Berman: “Did the uncertainty of next year factor in?”

    DW: “It did factor in.”

    Berman: “Will you stay in NYC or go back to Indiana.”

    DW: “I will keep an apartment in NYC but will move back home full time. Will visit and consult on regular basis. I intended to retire while in Indiana, but really wanted to caome to NY. Confident that the team is in a position to become a contender.”

  9. Thomas B. Post author

    Chris Sherridan: “What could have inticed you to stay.”

    DW: ” At my age a 1 year deal, but at my age I am not sure I can give more than 1 year at a time and team really needs someone who can give more. I am running out of energy.”

    Chris S: ” Can you see yourself finding a job somewhere else?”

    DW: “I am not looking for something else.”

    Banter about Dorrian Gray. Kinda funny.

  10. Thomas B. Post author

    Howard Beck: “Arent you walking away from an unfinished job?”

    DW: “Yes, I guess I am. I just don;t think I can commit to the amount of time needed to make the team a contender. I feel we are about 1-2 years away and you need someone who can give the two years.”

    HB: ” How did the potential lock out factor in on Dolan’s option to bring you back for 1 year.”

    DW: That could have been unfair windfall for me. So I understand.

    HB: ” If only a 2 year deal was available, would you have taken that?”

    DW: “Not sure that I have two years of the energy needed to do this. This is not a health issue. I just don’t have the energy to say i can do this for two years. I get late night calls and that is not easy.”

  11. Thomas B. Post author

    DW: ” I do not understand why people make big deal of an owner involved in a trade or contract negotiation. Decision to make the Melo trade was mine alone. Yes, Donnie give his input,but it was my deal to make. Hated giving up the players we had to give up. Thought we could fill hole with other players. We have two great players to build around. the job now is the build the supporting cast. A lot of basketball is won with the guys that fill in the blanks. we need those guys.”

  12. Thomas B. Post author

    Howie Evans “Any regrets from yur time here? Did you accomplish what you wanted to accomplish?”

    DW: “Regret trading players that I liked a lot. But no regrets about coming to NY. Enjoyed the people here. Loved working with Mike as a coach. Love the fans.”

  13. Frank

    Thomas B.:
    DW: ” I do not understand why people make big deal of an owner involved in a trade or contract negotiation. \

    I agree 100% with this. It’s the owner’s money and team, he should have input while hopefully not undermining the whole process.

  14. Thomas B. Post author

    Howie Evans: “Did the Isiah attention bother you?”

    DW” I have always had a relationship with Thomas, I have always liked him. I felt the attention was annoying. The constant questions.”

  15. Thomas B. Post author

    How did MDA respond to this decision

    DW: “Mike and I like each other, we work well together. Felt terrible putting coach in position where he had no chance to win in the first two years. Franchise on solid ground to go forward. Implored him to stick with it. It all depends on how we fill the blanks?”

  16. Thomas B. Post author

    Mark Hill “Is MDA having 2nd thoughts about staying in NY?”

    DW: ” No, I just wanted to assure him that I will be around to consult and help.”

  17. Thomas B. Post author

    DW; : Mike intends to stay. He is much younger than I am. He can handle it.”

  18. Thomas B. Post author

    Question (missed who asked): Are you comfortable saying that Isiah Thomas was not involved in the Carmelo trade?

    DW: “James told me that Thomas was not involved and i take him at his word. The press plays this sort of thing up based on his time in New York.”

    End of conference call.

  19. New Guy

    This all sounds pretty innocuous. Either Donnie is taking one for the team or this isn’t really a massive diversion from the path.

  20. Thomas B. Post author

    Looks like I got in line too late to ask a question about whether the successor would be with the team before the draft and whether Donnie will run the draft himself. I assume that he will but if the replacement is the one charged with filling the holes as Donnie said, I would think having him/her in place before the draft would be essential. Oh well next time. This was very exciting to cover, Thanks Mike for giving me a shot at it.

  21. Jim Cavan

    This all makes me feel a little better. Not much, but a little. If in fact Dolan wanted a long term commitment and Donnie just wasn’t ready for the long haul, I can understand that. And it was interesting to hear him categorically dismiss the notion that “autonomy” was an issue.

    Either way, what happens in the next few weeks is huge.

  22. Nick C.

    Frank: I agree 100% with this. It’s the owner’s money and team, he should have input while hopefully not undermining the whole process.

    I look at as “the what the F are you paying me for” some bosses woudl say what am I payign you for if I have to get involved and for me ther was nothing worse than a meddling boss. But there is nothing wrong with running something by the boss especially something big or getting his thoughts beforehand but once the ball rolls he should butt out.

  23. Frank

    If I’m Dolan – I hire a respected GM, then tell D’Antoni he’s gone unless he hires a defensive coordinator. If he leaves, he leaves, and deservedly so if he is too stubborn to realize that that better defense is necessary to win in this league. Then I go and hire Rick Adelman and give him a 4 year deal. Even though Adelman is known as an offensive coach, he’s had multiple teams that were top-5 or top-10 in defense.

  24. Nick C.

    As for walsh what he says is plausible but they all knew how old he was and how he felt physically so why drag it out like this he didn’t go from 35 and spry to 70 and whatever in the last week.

  25. Frank

    Not sure that Donnie wasn’t just being gracious. His “loss of energy” might be due to the fact that he has to carry the weight of Isiah, Dolan, etc. around all the time. But still – if he wouldn’t commit to more than 1 year, Dolan made the right choice in letting him walk. Who comes next is the really difficult decision. Maybe Sam Presti wants a job? *wishful thinking*

  26. Jim Cavan

    Frank:
    Not sure that Donnie wasn’t just being gracious. His “loss of energy” might be due to the fact that he has to carry the weight of Isiah, Dolan, etc. around all the time. But still – if he wouldn’t commit to more than 1 year, Dolan made the right choice in letting him walk. Who comes next is the really difficult decision.Maybe Sam Presti wants a job? *wishful thinking*

    I think you can be gracious and still be honest. Which I think he was. I’m sure they had their differences, but if autonomy or anything else of substance were really the issue, he’d have said as much simply by saying “we had our fair share of differences”, or something to that effect. There’s no denying this is probably one of the most exhausting front office jobs in all of sport, so I can’t fault him for being honest about his level of commitment going forward.

  27. Thomas B. Post author

    Frank:

    Not sure that Donnie wasn’t just being gracious. His “loss of energy” might be due to the fact that he has to carry the weight of Isiah, Dolan, etc. around all the time. But still – if he wouldn’t commit to more than 1 year, Dolan made the right choice in letting him walk. Who comes next is the really difficult decision. Maybe Sam Presti wants a job? *wishful thinking*

    I guess for some people there really isnt anything that the Knicks can say to make folk believe that IT was not back there pulling the strings. The best proof that this wasnt an IT move is that Melo played really well when he arrived. He had some aweome games and he was other worldly good in the game 2 vs the celts. When has anything IT touched every had a postive impact on the team? Nothing in DWs 40 years makes me think he is lying. What does he have to gain by covering for JD at this point? Nothing.

  28. Jim Cavan

    Hahn reporting that the talks included Donnie taking a $3 million haircut, from $5 million to $2 million. That kind of muddies the waters. Before, it sounded as if Dolan wanted him to stay, but Donnie wouldn’t commit to two years. But if Dolan attached that big a paycut to the extension, it’s like making an offer he absolutely has to refuse.

  29. TheShipBeSinking

    “What does he have to gain by covering for JD at this point?”

    A year’s worth of salary as a “consultant”, a chance to leave with it appearing to be his decision rather than being fired, and the basic instinct to handle business with dignity instead of turning this into a public drama.

  30. Doug

    Normally I wouldn’t believe a press conference rationalization of “health reasons”, but let’s not forget that Donnie is a man in his seventies who uses a walker to get around MSG and had had the tip of his tongue removed because of cancer only two years ago.

    There is a good chance it’s more than a media-palatable platitude this time.

  31. Doug

    Jim Cavan:
    Hahn reporting that the talks included Donnie taking a $3 million haircut, from $5 million to $2 million. That kind of muddies the waters. Before, it sounded as if Dolan wanted him to stay, but Donnie wouldn’t commit to two years. But if Dolan attached that big a paycut to the extension, it’s like making an offer he absolutely has to refuse.

    The ol’ Joe Torre lowball.

  32. ess-dog

    I’m sure if Donnie is staying as a consultant, then it’s all on the level. I’m glad he get Warkentien in there under the wire.
    Kind of a bummer. I’m sure JD will bring in some CAA puppet next.

  33. Thomas B. Post author

    TheShipBeSinking:

    “What does he have to gain by covering for JD at this point?”

    A year’s worth of salary as a “consultant”, a chance to leave with it appearing to be his decision rather than being fired, and the basic instinct to handle business with dignity instead of turning this into a public drama.

    Like I said, some people see what they want to see.

  34. Doug

    ess-dog:
    I’m sure if Donnie is staying as a consultant, then it’s all on the level.I’m glad he get Warkentien in there under the wire.
    Kind of a bummer.I’m sure JD will bring in some CAA puppet next.

    Warkentien is represented by the CAA… COINCIDENCE?

  35. jon abbey

    Doug: The ol’ Joe Torre lowball.

    hopefully it works out as well as that, because Torre definitely, one hundred percent, needed to go.

  36. Thomas B. Post author

    TheShipBeSinking:

    I gave you three specific answers to a question you asked, you responded with an insult. Why did you ask the question if you didn’t want answers?

    Those are all somewhat valid reasons to support the baseless notion that IT is still pulling the strings and now everyone is covering for JD. I just don’t know why people hang on to that then rationalize whatever the news of the days is into something that fits the conspiracy theory.

    This reminds me of a line from “The Terminator” when Dr Silberman is evaluating Kyle Reese “Great stuff. I could make a career out of this guy. See how clever it is? It doesn’t require a shred of proof. Most paranoid delusions are intricate, but this is brilliant.”

    Don’t blow a gasket. I’m just kidding with you.

  37. New Guy

    DW: “I get late night calls and that is not easy.”

    I just pictured Dolan playing Conrad Hilton to Walsh’s Don Draper. “I want a Knicks game on the moon, Donnie. Amar’e and Melo in spacesuits. Make it happen!”

  38. BigBlueAL

    Stephen A Smith on ESPN right now schilling for Isiah. Asked on a scale from 1-10 how likely Isiah will be back he said an 8 that Isiah is President again and spent alot of time doing his usual ripping of D’Antoni.

  39. Thomas B. Post author

    BigBlueAL:

    Stephen A Smith on ESPN right now schilling for Isiah. Asked on a scale from 1-10 how likely Isiah will be back he said an 8 that Isiah is President again and spent alot of time doing his usual ripping of D’Antoni.

    What does he base any of this on? If IT comes back I will issue a public mea culpa to all the conspiracy theorists, but I just can’t see any way that could happen.

  40. BigBlueAL

    Thomas B.: What does he base any of this on?If IT comes back I will issue a public mea culpa to all the conspiracy theorists, but I just can’t see any way that could happen.

    Totally agree and hopefully we are right. If Isiah does come back though Isola will hold a parade in his own honor for constantly staying on the Isiah bandwagon lol.

  41. Count Zero

    “Pay attention to what I do not to what I say.”

    If the Knicks bring in a real GM to replace DW, then all of this pleasantry and rationalization is totally plausible. If, on the other hand, Zeke does return, then DW was lying through his teeth today.

    Simple as that.

    Personally, I think MDA deserves a shot now that he has some players. But I wouldn’t cry for one minute if he gets the axe. Forget all the “doesn’t care about defense” nonsense — his most egregious flaw IMO is his tendency to park players in his personal doghouse and never give them a shot. (Nate, Darko, AR, etc.)

  42. chrisk06811

    In addition to being a great GM, Donnie also had a better offensive game than Jarred Jeffries, and was less fragile than Turiaf.

  43. JK47

    I would bail if Zeke is named GM. I live in LA, so I’d switch to the Lakers. Now that they’re not the champs, it wouldn’t be so bandwagon-y. But I will not root for or allow myself to care about a team that is run by the worst GM in sports history.

  44. Frank

    If Isiah comes back I think I would bail also even though I have season tickets. I would actually consider trying to get a class action lawsuit together to get out of our tickets, with the claim being that Dolan is purposefully degrading his product.

    I don’t know who I’d root for. Maybe the Nets. Or maybe even the TWolves. Why not?

  45. BigBlueAL

    Unfortunately for myself even if Isiah is brought back (which I highly doubt will happen) I will still be a die-hard Knicks fan. Nothing and I mean nothing will change that.

    I will be a Yankees and Knicks fan til the day I die regardless of anything.

  46. Robert Silverman

    BigBlueAL:
    Unfortunately for myself even if Isiah is brought back (which I highly doubt will happen) I will still be a die-hard Knicks fan.Nothing and I mean nothing will change that.

    I will be a Yankees and Knicks fan til the day I die regardless of anything.

    Zeke coming back might be the thing that forces me out the door. It’d be just too big a giant middle finger to the die-hard fans from Guitar Jimmy.

    (Before I say this, let me preface it by saying I’m not comparing the two in terms of seriousness or actual harm done. but…)

    Knick fans really do function like (LIKE, not the same as) battered spouses. We get beaten down again and again by an abusive a-hole who clearly couldn’t care less about us and we keep coming back for more, rationalizing that “This time it’ll be different.”

  47. BigBlueAL

    Robert Silverman: Zeke coming back might be the thing that forces me out the door. It’d be just too big a giant middle finger to the die-hard fans from Guitar Jimmy.

    (Before I say this, let me preface it by saying I’m not comparing the two in terms of seriousness or actual harm done. but…)

    Knick fans really do function like (LIKE, not the same as) battered spouses. We get beaten down again and again by an abusive a-hole who clearly couldn’t care less about us and we keep coming back for more, rationalizing that “This time it’ll be different.”

    I think being a die-hard Yankee fan as well helps me as a Knicks fan lol.

    Also guys apparently Isiah will be on Sportscenter at 6:20 pm tonight.

  48. Jim Cavan

    BigBlueAL: Also guys apparently Isiah will be on Sportscenter at 6:20 pm tonight.

    Perfect! That’s right when I planned on playing in I-95 traffic anyway.

  49. Thomas B. Post author

    I have not eaten pork, or beef in 6 years. If Isiah Thomas comes back as Knicks President this summer I will eat a double bacon vealburger on KB via live stream. That is how confident I am that he will not be back.

  50. Robert Silverman

    BigBlueAL: I think being a die-hard Yankee fan as well helps me as a Knicks fan lol.

    Also guys apparently Isiah will be on Sportscenter at 6:20 pm tonight.

    Lucky me – I’m a Mets guy. Are you serious about the Isiah SC appearance? That’s awful and cruel.

    And yes, I’m going to try to watch

  51. Robert Silverman

    Thomas B.:
    I have not eaten pork, or beef in 6 years. If Isiah Thomas comes back as Knicks President this summer I will eat a double bacon vealburger on KB via live stream.That is how confident I am that he will not be back.

    Totally off-topic but, for health reasons? moral objection? or as Jules said in Pulp Fiction, do you just not dig on swine?

  52. BigBlueAL

    jon abbey:
    Amare is supposed to be on at 5, so very shortly now.

    Didnt know that, thanks for the heads up. Will turn on ESPNNEWS now.

    BTW the Isiah thing I read on Twitter so I assume its correct.

  53. Thomas B. Post author

    Robert Silverman:

    Totally off-topic but, for health reasons? moral objection? or as Jules said in Pulp Fiction, do you just not dig on swine?

    Started as moral then became health. I got tricked into watching one of those PETA snuff films–the kind where the pig just wont die while it is being prepared for its journey to become bacon– by some of my vegan classmates. After that I just couldnt eat mammals anymore. Following the diet change, I lost 40 pounds.

  54. Frank O.

    The early representations of the Donnie presser were really sensationalized.
    This does not sound like a guy speaking from talking points.
    It’s clear that the 2 years was an issue for him. He seemed quite comfortable in what he was saying. I think this is stoked by the media too much.
    I think Isiah is the bogey man and ridiculous. Isiah is done with the NBA.
    I think Dolan will chase a new GM and president and it will work out.
    But all this intrigue is a creation.

  55. BigBlueAL

    At the end of the season Amar’e defended D’Antoni alot and was very vocal about how good a coach he is. Today on SportsCenter not so much.

    Sure looks like D’Antoni is in trouble now that Walsh is gone.

  56. Frank O.

    From ESPN

    The agent for New York Knicks coach Mike D’Antoni says the specter of a new team president with Donnie Walsh being reduced to a consultant does not change D’Antoni’s desire to coach the team next season.

    “This is the team Mike wants to coach,” said his agent, Warren LeGarie. “He spent two years putting it in position not only to have a winning record but a playoff appearance. This is where he’d like to continue to coach as long as they want him.”

    D’Antoni
    D’Antoni should find out just how committed the Knicks are to him fairly soon. He is entering the final year of a four-year contract that will pay him $6 million next season. Talk of extensions or contracts for anyone else in the organization were put on hold until Walsh’s future was resolved.

    Walsh, sources said, thought he had an oral agreement with Knicks owner James Dolan on a two-year extension that spelled out his level of authority, but when he received the actual written contract there was an addendum that undercut that authority. Apparently after several weeks of trying to get Dolan to remove the addendum, Walsh decided last night to relinquish his interest in remaining as team president, sources said.

    Speculation from other team general managers is that Creative Artists Agency, which represents recently acquired superstar Carmelo Anthony as well as assistant general manager Allan Houston and consultant Mark Warkentien, will exert influence not only on who the Knicks hire to replace Walsh, but also whether D’Antoni is the Knicks coach beyond next season.

    Former Knicks coach and team president Isiah Thomas, now the coach at Florida International, has strong ties with CAA, but Thomas told ESPNNewYork.com that he has no interest in replacing Walsh.

    One source said that CAA officials were not happy with how Walsh and D’Antoni handled another one of their clients, Eddy Curry, before he was traded to the Minnesota Timberwolves as part of the February deal that…

  57. latke

    From ESPN:

    Walsh, sources said, thought he had an oral agreement with Knicks owner James Dolan on a two-year extension that spelled out his level of authority, but when he received the actual written contract there was an addendum that undercut that authority. Apparently after several weeks of trying to get Dolan to remove the addendum, Walsh decided last night to relinquish his interest in remaining as team president, sources said.

  58. BigBlueAL

    cgreene:
    Amare was on SC?What did he say?

    Not much. But as I mentioned above he was fairly vocal in his support for D’Antoni at the end of the season but today he sounded indifferent.

    I took it as he still likes D’Antoni but he doesnt really care if a new coach is brought in. He mentioned that he is just a player and not in management so basically he knows in the end its not his decision on who will be the coach next season.

  59. Robert Silverman

    cgreene:
    Amare was on SC?What did he say?

    He quoted Ron Burgundy and said, “I immediately regret this decision!”

  60. Count de Pennies

    I posted this a few months back… but I’ll go ahead and post it again as, sadly, it is much more relevant now than when originally written:

    I just don’t get all the love for Kevin Pritchard here.

    Even if you give him a mulligan on Oden over Durant (since every other NBA GM would likely have done the exact same thing), dude hasn’t exactly set the world on fire, near as I can tell.

    Other than the 2006 draft in which he hoodwinked the Bulls into trading Tyrus Thomas for Aldridge and then swapped Foye for Roy with Minny (a move that looks less impressive now that we’ve seen Roy’s checkered medical history come back and bite Portland in the ass) what, exactly, has KP done that makes people think he represents a significant upgrade over Walsh?

    Trade Jarrett Jack and the rights to Brandon Rush to Indy for Jerryd Bayless?

    Offer a 30 y.o. Hedo Turkoglu a 5-year, $50 MM deal… only to be (luckily) bailed out by Mrs. T. who preferred to live in Toronto?

    Pay Phoenix a million dollars of Paul Allen’s $$ for a very average Rudy Fernandez?

    Wisely use a second round pick on Omer Asik in 2008… only to turn around and trade him for three future second round picks?

    Spend numerous first round picks on Eurostash projects who likely will never see an NBA floor (Joel Freeland, Petteri Koponen, Victor Claver)?

    Pass on Dejuan Blair TWICE in the second round in favor of Jeff Pendergraph and Dante Cunningham?

    All the moves of the middle of the pack GM; a few hits, a few misses, a whole lot of meh. Seems to me his real talent was for self-promotion; marketing himself to the media as the smartest guy in the room – a trait that reportedly rubbed other GMs (and his boss) the wrong way and made them increasingly reluctant to do business with him.

    Pass.

  61. Robert Silverman

    Hearing Isiah’s voice (on ESPN) is literally giving me a rash. And my sponsor (a Celts fan) is semi-seriously trying to convince me that that being a Nix fan is bad for my sobriety.

  62. Robert Silverman

    And ESPN’s doing everything in their power to keep fueling the “Zeke to NY” meme going w/this interview.

    Evil.

  63. BigBlueAL

    Well, at least Isiah has now gone on record as saying he has no interest in becoming President of the Knicks again. I wonder if he was saying that with that stupid little smirk of his.

  64. BigBlueAL

    Robert Silverman:
    And ESPN’s doing everything in their power to keep fueling the “Zeke to NY” meme going w/this interview.

    Evil.

    For real. At least Isiah stated to ESPNNY.com and at the beginning of this interview that he has no interest in becoming President of the Knicks again but this idiot SportsCenter anchor wouldnt take that for an answer. Neither will Isola and the majority of the media unfortunately.

  65. Count de Pennies

    Oy… all this Isiah chatter is making me think that Kevin Pritchard might not be so bad, after all.

  66. steveoh

    At this point, I wouldn’t be shocked if James Dolan hired his drummer to be the GM.

    Of course, that would include the drummer taking a massive pay cut.

  67. BigBlueAL

    Just listened to Amar’e on the Michael Kay Show today. Say what you will about Amar’e but he is a pretty good interview and I enjoy listening to him. Same reason I like D’Antoni alot too, both are great in interviews and with the media.

  68. KnickfaninNJ

    I don’t believe for an instant that Donnie just decided to not go on for health reasons. The only reason that could have occurred is if he had some sort of relapse in his health he doesn’t want to talk about. I really hope that’s not the case. Up until a month ago he was talking about wanting to finish what he started. I think he got what he considered an unreasonable offer from Dolan and decided not to go forward. He’s a gentleman and he doesn’t burn his bridges so he only told part of the story to the press. He probably told Dolan something similar, that under the circumstances his health just wouldn’t be good enough. If the circumstances were different, I bet his health would be fine.

  69. John Kenney

    Wanted to make this point just because its been mentioned a few times: for everyone wh ospeculates about if we had gotten Jimmer last year, all that means is that he would now be a Nugget. Nothing we could have done positively last year would be contributing to the current team. So it’s all pointless.

  70. ess-dog

    The thing that bothers me about all this is, why wouldn’t Dolan just agree to a 1-year deal with Walsh if that’s the way Walsh wanted to do it? Dolan was insisting on 2 years and 1 wasn’t good enough for him? I don’t buy it. There has to be more there. It leads me to believe that the power issues Hahn mentioned are for real. Not saying that Zeke is even involved, but Dolan just couldn’t leave well enough alone and tried to undercut Walsh’s power and Walsh just said “no thanks, pal.”

    Sigh.

    It really is same ol’ same ol’ with Dolan here.

  71. Frank

    John Kenney:
    Wanted to make this point just because its been mentioned a few times: for everyone wh ospeculates about if we had gotten Jimmer last year, all that means is that he would now be a Nugget. Nothing we could have done positively last year would be contributing to the current team. So it’s all pointless.

    What if Jimmer was averaging 24 points per game on 44% from 3? One could argue that the Knicks wouldn’t even have tried to trade for Melo if Jimmer was really good. I don’t think you can assume the Knicks would’ve given up the house for Melo no matter what.

  72. jon abbey

    Frank: What if Jimmer was averaging 24 points per game on 44% from 3?

    odds are he’d be giving up 32 PPG on the other end. I’m not sure why people are so excited about him, I’ll be surprised if he’s ever a quality starter in the league. he seems like a career bench player to me albeit maybe a valuable one in the right situation…

  73. latke

    Frank: What if Jimmer was averaging 24 points per game on 44% from 3? One could argue that the Knicks wouldn’t even have tried to trade for Melo if Jimmer was really good.I don’t think you can assume the Knicks would’ve given up the house for Melo no matter what.

    The thing I’ve wondered baout a number of times is were there any number of wins that might have prevented the Anthony trade from happening?

    Let’s say rather than being 28-26 at the ASB, the Knicks were 35 and 19, putting them on pace to have home court in the first round. If you look at the period after the first 11 games up until when Chandler started to struggle and Gallo got hurt (early January), the Knicks were 16-6. That’s about a 60 win pace. IMO with excellent health and quicker adjustments early on in the season, the knicks could have been in competition for home court advantage in the playoffs come the ASB… Would we still have sent away every asset we had to get Anthony, or might Dolan have been able to control himself and turned down Denver or forced them to lower their demands?

  74. Shad0wF0x

    @84

    Had the Knicks been playing as you have stated during that stretch, I believe that the team might have been to low ball Denver into taking the same offer (minus Anthony Randolph, Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton and Timofey Mosgov).

    It also would have helped if Melo would have just stated that he would only accept a trade to the Knicks and no other team.

  75. MSA

    John Kenney:
    Wanted to make this point just because its been mentioned a few times: for everyone wh ospeculates about if we had gotten Jimmer last year, all that means is that he would now be a Nugget. Nothing we could have done positively last year would be contributing to the current team. So it’s all pointless.

    Same thing for Lawson in the 2009 draft. He would be a Rocket and we… much more pissed right now.

  76. Mike Kurylo

    JK47:
    I would bail if Zeke is named GM. I live in LA, so I’d switch to the Lakers. Now that they’re not the champs, it wouldn’t be so bandwagon-y. But I will not root for or allow myself to care about a team that is run by the worst GM in sports history.

    Any time you switch to the Lakers, it’s bandwagon-y. Since you live in LA, why not root for the Clippers?

    Oh right, you don’t want a team run by an evil incompetent owner.

  77. massive

    If the Knicks were 35-19, then there’s no way we would have given up all of those players. That would mean that Felton wouldn’t have started to suck, Gallo would have had a breakout season, and Amar’e would have been a legitimate MVP candidate (not one based solely on the “revival” of NY basketball). They would have taken a lesser offer; something built around Gallo and Felton. I think Felton, Gallo, Curry, and Minnesota’s 1st rounder would have gotten the deal done, allowing us to keep Chandler and Mozgov. A lot of the argument for us trading for Melo was “you can’t overvalue the core of a team two games over .500. When you have a chance for a superstar, you have to do it.” If we were 16 games above .500 and had a chance at a 50-55 win season (which isn’t all that unrealistic thinking; we lost a LOT of games we should have won), Melo might have been here for cheap.

    FWIW, I think Melo is going to have a breakout season next year. I think his O-Rating, WS/48, and TS% will all be well above his career averages under D’Antoni. I understand that players tend to regress to the mean (Felton is a perfect example of this). But, if you look at the stats, Melo got off to a rough start as a Knick and STILL played the best basketball of his career as a Knick. So in my opinion (and hope), he will continue this trend, and we will have won this trade come next season.

  78. ess-dog

    So what does everyone think about Allan Houston as a potential new GM? I feel like this is the most likely to happen because Dolan just loves him to death. I could see him stepping up and utilizing Donnie a lot. Also keeping Warkentien on. Clearly it’s not the best move we could make, but at least Allan is, you know, a stand up guy unlike certain people who will remain nameless…

  79. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ess-dog,

    I think Houston would be a terrible GM. Not many former players are consistently good player evaluators. They seem to think, and this is speculation, that by having played the game, they see something that the stats don’t. That’s usually wrong.

    And he may be a stand-up guy, but so am I, and I certainly shouldn’t be considered for the position…

  80. Z

    Wow. I really didn’t think I’d casually check in to see if there was anything going on in the dog days of predraft june in KnickLand to find so much going on! This is really too bad. Why wouldn’t Dolan just go year-to-year with him? Isn’t it usually the employee looking for a long term deal and the employer looking to get it as short as possible?

    Maybe Donnie’s health is responsible for this, but he seems to really want to work another year. Why not let him?? (Especially since there may not even be a year).

  81. Z

    ess-dog:
    So what does everyone think about Allan Houston as a potential new GM?I feel like this is the most likely to happen because Dolan just loves him to death.I could see him stepping up and utilizing Donnie a lot.Also keeping Warkentien on.Clearly it’s not the best move we could make, but at least Allan is, you know, a stand up guy unlike certain people who will remain nameless…

    I think Houston would be a puppet for the middle-aged white guys that would actually be running this team. Houston’s charisma is Patick Ewing level dull. There couldn’t be a less dynamic personality in the front office.

    But is that a bad thing? Maybe the best GM is the ex-player who has credibility with players, says nothing controversial to the media, and lets the middle-aged white guys with the protractors, spreadsheets, and fancy degrees make all the decisions.

  82. Frank

    @91- gross generalization but whatever. Jerry west clearly saw something in Kobe Bryant that others didnt see. Mchale clearly saw something in Kevin garnett that others didn’t see. If anything, it’s been harder to find an ex-player without significant apprenticeship that can run the business end of things well, like cap management, contract negotiations, etc. Which are prob more important in that position since its mostly scouts that do the player evals. We don’t know anything about Houston as a non-player so having any opinion at all about him is purely guesswork.

    I’m probably in the minority here but depending on who comes on board to replace Donnie, this doesn’t seem like a huge loss. I think we can all agree he was brought here to bring Lebron. Didn’t happen. His drafts were distinctly unremarkable. His trade negotiations were poor overall. He was basically a doormat in the Melo proceedings, first by not standing up for himself and then in Melo signing a max contract (not taking less for the team like the Miami guys did) with an early opt-out no less. he engineered a nice trade for Anthony Randolph then isn’t able to work with D’Antoni to be sure the kid got some time.

    His major moves looked great at the time but Zbo AND Crawford were both traded afterward, so it wasn’t as impossible as it seemed. Amare coming, I think we can all agree, would’ve happened regardless of GM as long as Dolan agreed to $100M. And Melo wanted to come here anyway.

    So I think Donnie overall did a good job, but it’s not like he was Sam Presti or RC Buford here. I’d give him a C for his work, an A for class.

    Re all these anonymous sources- I don’t buy it. If it was so insulting to Donnie he would’ve just left and not accepted another role with the team.

  83. Count de Pennies

    Z: Maybe the best GM is the ex-player who has credibility with players, says nothing controversial to the media, and lets the middle-aged white guys with the protractors, spreadsheets, and fancy degrees make all the decisions.

    Sadly, the middle aged white guy who’d be calling most of the shots in this case comes armed with neither protractor, spreadsheet, nor fancy degree.

    But who knows? Maybe a guitar and a lousy singing voice will prove just as effective.

  84. art vandelay

    Not sure if this was alluded to yet above, as I haven’t read every single comment so far, but that 16-6 record in retrospect (and largely this was known somewhat at the time) was quite illusory: I believe they had the easiest or second easiest schedule in the entire NBA up to that point along with the Lakers…so there is no way that record was going to be sustainable prior to the all-star break…

    simply put, a 36-19 record was pretty much out of the question with that roster and there was no way they were going to put up that kind of winning % with that pre-Melo team.

  85. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Chris Paul will come and contribute 20+ wins by himself, and everyone else will take the credit: D’antoni, Stat, Carmelo, et al. Everyone but Fields.

  86. Shad0wF0x

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Chris Paul will come and contribute 20+ wins by himself, and everyone else will take the credit: D’antoni, Stat, Carmelo, et al. Everyone but Fields.

    If that happens, I’ll just give everyone credit. Cause that means we have a 60 win team. I wouldn’t really care who the media “Derrick Roses” for the Knicks.

  87. Ted Nelson

    Frank: Jerry west clearly saw something in Kobe Bryant that others didnt see. Mchale clearly saw something in Kevin garnett that others didn’t see.

    I agree that ex-players can make fine talent evaluators and should not be all grouped together.

    I disagree with these examples, though, certainly with the Garnett/McHale example. That was one of the only good decisions McHale made in his entire tenure in Minnesota… which lasted way too long. One of the worst execs in the game. I really hope Dolan doesn’t consider him. West has a better resume overall than McHale, so I could maybe agree there.
    Anyway, back to the point… I think everyone saw those things in KG and Kobe. Their talent was unmistakable. It was just that McHale/West were the ones with the balls to draft/trade for them first. It was pretty unchartered territory to take a HS kid. These were GMs of bad teams (with lottery picks). They might not have wanted to take the risk of sticking their necks out and having their heads chopped off if it didn’t work out. They might not have wanted to wait a few years for a guy to develop (which I largely disagree with, just saying they could have seen with McHale/West saw and just had a different philosophy). Plus… a lot of them took good players with NCAA experience. Joe Smith, McDyess, Stackhouse, and Sheed were the only guys taken ahead of KG. Bad picks ahead of him in retrospect, but very good prospects at the time. The 96 draft was pretty stacked, though the 6 picks ahead of Kobe were awful.

    So they made very good decisions, but I’m not sure that they saw any more in them than anyone else. They were both top recruit freaks everyone knew could play.

  88. Ted Nelson

    John Kenney: Wanted to make this point just because its been mentioned a few times: for everyone wh ospeculates about if we had gotten Jimmer last year, all that means is that he would now be a Nugget. Nothing we could have done positively last year would be contributing to the current team. So it’s all pointless.

    Landry Fields is still on the team… Rautins. Toney Douglas. Shawne Williams. Amare. And if Jimmer had a hot rookie season and were a valuable trade chip to the Nuggets, the Knicks might have managed to keep something else.

    That said. I don’t see how the Knicks were getting Jimmer without a first round pick. He wasn’t worried about getting drafted, he was worried about getting drafted with a guaranteed contract. Maybe Walsh could have bought a pick, but maybe he had zero shot at convincing Jimmer.

    And as other have said, Jimmer would actually have to have a great rookie season to be attractive to Denver. Fields was one of the better rookies in the NBA last season and Denver didn’t get him. With Felton and Lawson on their roster, would Denver have been that interested in Jimmer?

  89. BigBlueAL

    Ted Nelson: Landry Fields is still on the team… Rautins. Toney Douglas. Shawne Williams. Amare. And if Jimmer had a hot rookie season and were a valuable trade chip to the Nuggets, the Knicks might have managed to keep something else.

    That said. I don’t see how the Knicks were getting Jimmer without a first round pick. He wasn’t worried about getting drafted, he was worried about getting drafted with a guaranteed contract. Maybe Walsh could have bought a pick, but maybe he had zero shot at convincing Jimmer.

    And as other have said, Jimmer would actually have to have a great rookie season to be attractive to Denver. Fields was one of the better rookies in the NBA last season and Denver didn’t get him. With Felton and Lawson on their roster, would Denver have been that interested in Jimmer?

    Yeah, Jimmer even mentioned this I believe when he was interviewed after his workout this past week with the Knicks. He pulled out of the draft because no team guaranteed picking him in the 1st round and the Knicks obviously didnt have a 1st round pick and couldnt guarantee him that they would acquire one on draft night.

  90. CRJoe

    I think you’re giving way to much emphasis to the drafting skills of a GM to make a valid argument, you guys gotta remember, whoever winds up running the Knicks won’t be doing much drafting for a while… We have one lousy pick in a terrible draft, I’d be a lot more excited if we turned that pick into Jon Brockman, that if we keep it and get a Morris twin…
    We don´t need a GM who is great in drafting, but one who has the character not to be overruled by two high profile all-stars & a high profile coach and who can stand his ground in front of Dolan…
    But the most important thing we need is a GM who is proven to have gotten results without making radical roster moves (something we don’t have the assets to do)…
    I’d personally like to see Billy Knight running the team, he was awful at drafting, but made some great steals via trades and turned the Hawks from being the longest non play-off team to a second round team, with only Joe Johnson and Josh Smith, I’d like to think Melo and Amar’e are better versions of those players…

  91. ess-dog

    Ted Nelson: I agree that ex-players can make fine talent evaluators and should not be all grouped together.

    I disagree with these examples, though, certainly with the Garnett/McHale example.

    Hell, Ainge has won 2 trophies as a GM and I wouldn’t want him. But I do agree that Allan would/could be a puppet GM that would work as more of a mediator btwn Walsh/Wark/whoever and Dolan. Not a great way to do business but it could be worse (Zeke cough cough.)

    Meanwhile, who else thinks that we are on a collision course with Josh “pay to play” Selby? Between two overpaid stars, the CAA jockriding and an entitled rookie, I don’t think I’ll enjoy this Knicks team very much.

  92. flossy

    ess-dog:
    Meanwhile, who else thinks that we are on a collision course with Josh “pay to play” Selby?Between two overpaid stars, the CAA jockriding and an entitled rookie, I don’t think I’ll enjoy this Knicks team very much.

    I hope we draft Selby. He absolutely has the highest ceiling of any guard prospect who will be available at 17… his stock is just artificially depressed because of one bad year at Kansas that was largely not his fault. I think on a team with his b-ball idol and hometown friend, where he won’t be asked to be a hero in his first year (and will benefit from whatever wisdom Billups can impart) would be the best possible scenario for him to have long-term success in the league. And holy crap is he ever talented and athletic.

    High bust potential, yes… but with the new CBA looming and most of our payroll tied up in Melo/Amar’e I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to roll the dice on a player with All-Star potential who we’ll have on his rookie deal for four years.

  93. latke

    IMO teams that take the approach of win now at all costs always end up regretting it. Yeah, players almost never are great contributors in their first years. Only 5 rookies this year had WS/48 over .100 and played over 1000 minutes, but of 2nd year players last year, 11 achieved that same landmark, and of 3rd year players, 18 had above average WS/48 and played over 1000 minutes. That means that with wise drafting, even in the late 1st round, a team can get excellent value. Remember, the 10th pick of the 2009 draft only made $1.9 million dollars last year. How often do teams find free agents for that price who are above average in productivity? Very very rarely.

    That’s why IMO even if you don’t have a lot of draft picks coming up and you are playing to win now, I think it’s absolutely crucial that you have a GM that respects just how valuable draft picks are and seizes opportunities to acquire them. That doesn’t just mean drafting well, it means acquiring as many picks as you can and loading up on talent, even if that talent is a year or two away from contributing. Barring some ridiculously lopsided trade for Chris Paul, IMO the only chance the knicks have is to have some good fortune in the draft.

  94. Brian Cronin

    Hell, Ainge has won 2 trophies as a GM and I wouldn’t want him.

    Curious, is that a mistake or are you thinking of a title that I missed?

  95. Doug

    On a scale from 1-10 how much should we be anticipating the possiblity of Grunwald as president?

  96. Z-man

    Changing the subject, I was thinking about pros and cons of drafting Faried. If he is indeed a second coming of Rodman, and if the Heat are the most serious threat to us getting to the finals for the next 4 years, wouldn’t it help to have a guy that can at least have a chance to defend either LeBron or Wade effectively to relieve the defensive pressure on Amar’e and Melo. If Melo moves to the 2 for stretches, and we can get a decent defensive 7-footer (Jordan? Dalembert?), and we add a PG prospect with a purchased late 1st or 2nd round pick, I’d be OK going into the year with that. According to Berri and other metrics, Faried is definitely not going to be a bust, and his upside is to be an all-defense contender in short order.

  97. ess-dog

    One positive thing out of all this might be a front office that drafts the BPA and doesn’t try to design around D’Antoni’s system. There isn’t total veracity to my last statement, but it seems to have been the approach lately. Therefore, I see more of a chance of the Knicks grabbing Faried now, as opposed to a jump-shooter. But I also see a large chance of us taking Selby – a guy who is a huge risk despite being buddies with Melo.

    Lance Stephenson was as prized a HS player as Selby and had a better year in college. Has he done anything for Indy? Learning the team game is huge. Who is going to teach it to Selby? A wicked crossover isn’t enough. I’m not totally shutting the door on the guy, but I just don’t see him helping in the next 2 years, thereby deflating any trade value he would have. Guys like Faried or Morris would help right away.

    And also Brian, yes, my mistake. I keep thinking in my head that Boston won that last series against the Lakers (at least my Celtic friends just say it like it was fact. I think they’ve brainwashed me!)

  98. Ted Nelson

    CRJoe: I think you’re giving way to much emphasis to the drafting skills of a GM to make a valid argument

    I think drafting is only being used as an obvious example to represent talent evaluation. Not just talent evaluation of amateur draft prospects, but also NBA players. The draft is just a raw form of it.

    CRJoe: But the most important thing we need is a GM who is proven to have gotten results without making radical roster moves (something we don’t have the assets to do)…
    I’d personally like to see Billy Knight running the team

    Huh? Billy Knight is about as radical as they come. He’s on record saying that the ideal basketball height is 6’9″ and constructed the Hawks pretty much literally with 6’9″ players only… deciding to draft Marvin Williams over CP3 and others because of his height being “ideal for basketball.” It eventually worked out pretty well, but it took him 5 years to turn them around and he did it primarily through the draft: Al Horford and Josh Smith. Even Joe Johnson was a FA they got by paying a buttload and trading a drafted (6’9″) player in Boris Diaw.

    What trade steals did he make? I can’t really think of any. He had to include his own 1st rounder to get rid of Terry for Toine and Delk. The Bibby trade?

    I guess maybe Knight’s 6’9″ philosophy could fit in well with D’Antoni ball.

  99. Ted Nelson

    I’d be happy with a Faried or Selby pick, I think, also Morris. At 17 you’re at the mercy of the teams drafting ahead of you, obviously. Best pick could be an obvious guy other teams pass on or a sleeper if all the obvious guys the Knicks like are gone.

    latke, good points about the importance of drafting well.

    ess-dog, I believe that Walsh is still running the Knicks draft. I can’t really complain about his drafting, though. His track record in Indiana was at least good, and arguable very good or great. He blew the Hill pick, but was able to trade him quickly. Otherwise TD and Fields have given the Knicks very good value. Rautins and Jordan may or may not work out, but were 2nd round picks you shouldn’t expect to work out… 3 2nds and one Fields is a strong return (could include TD too since he was so late in the first and say 2 for 4 at least).

    Selby is not Lance Stephenson… so I wouldn’t just compare them like that. Every time a prospect comes along with one or two things in common with a guy drafted the season before you can’t just decide their rookie seasons will parallel one another.

    There’s something to getting getting immediate trade chips, but there’s also something to getting the best player. Few players have a whole lot of immediate success. Generally I think you just take who you think is the best player and they tend to be better in the short- and long-term. I am very much against drafting for need: it’s better to have a good player at a position you don’t need than a bad player at a position you do need. I am pretty confident in Walsh’s ability to make a sound decision at #17. I don’t think I’d complain about most of the names people here like: Faried, Morris, Selby, Jimmer…

  100. ess-dog

    Selby and Stephenson have different games for ball dominant guards, but in this case, I think it’s fair to compare them for the sake of showing that being a top ranked HS player does not even guarantee that you’ll be a good bench player in the NBA or create one meaningful stat. This is important because there is talk of this pick being trade fodder for CP3 but I just don’t see it happening unless we get a really productive rookie along the lines of Ty Lawson.

    Of course, both of those guys could flourish in 3-4 years, who knows? I’m not necessarily anti-Selby, I just don’t think it’s the most prudent pick… even as trade bait. The good news is, there is usually at least one guy that drops for the wrong reasons to the 17 spot. This year it could be Biyombo, Tristan Thompson, Alec Burks, it’s hard to say. Hopefully we scoop that guy up.

  101. CRJoe

    Ted Nelson: What trade steals did he make? I can’t really think of any. He had to include his own 1st rounder to get rid of Terry for Toine and Delk. The Bibby trade?

    Yeah I was referring to those two moments, he got an in-the-moment premier point guard in Bibby. He had been averaging close to 20 & 6 for the last 3 years with Sac, shooting a very high percentage.

    He also got a big, strong, versatile wing scorer who, since he had earned the starting role in Pho, was putting up better numbers than say, Andre Iguodala in the last couple of years. He got him for a sophmore who had seen a drop in production compare to his rookie year, a rookie year that wasn’t anything special to begin with, and a couple of protected first round picks…

    So what I’m saying is, if you could get say Rudy Gay and Stephen Curry, for say… Jordan Hill, Toney Douglas, Extra E and the same picks we sent to Denver… You wouldn’t call it a great deal??? Also remember that Billy pulled a Donnie in Atlanta, picking up a team that in the last few years before he got there, had made trades that would make Isiah shed tears in pride (Pau, the Sheed trades, Isaiah Rider…)

  102. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog: I think it’s fair to compare them for the sake of showing that being a top ranked HS player does not even guarantee that you’ll be a good bench player in the NBA or create one meaningful stat.

    As 20 year old rookie…

    Being a Final Four MVP and Naismith winner doesn’t mean you’ll do anything in the NBA either. You got to look at the prospect. I don’t know enough about Selby to say. Definitely seems like he’s worth a look, though.

    ess-dog: This is important because there is talk of this pick being trade fodder for CP3 but I just don’t see it happening unless we get a really productive rookie along the lines of Ty Lawson.

    Maybe it factors in a little when you’re picking between two prospects and can’t decide, but yeah… it’s not very likely so you don’t take a guy based on whether he might get you CP3. If you are successful in taking the best player he’s probably going to have the best trade value. Teams will also get to see him in Summer League and preseason to get a feel for his game and potential.

    ess-dog: Of course, both of those guys could flourish in 3-4 years, who knows?

    It’s not just about 2 or 3 years, though. Sometimes very good athletes/players seen as “raw” contribute more off the bat than “NBA ready” guys. A lot of times “NBA ready” is just code for “he sucks.”

    ess-dog: there is usually at least one guy that drops for the wrong reasons to the 17 spot. This year it could be Biyombo, Tristan Thompson, Alec Burks, it’s hard to say. Hopefully we scoop that guy up.

    And it could be Selby.

  103. Ted Nelson

    CRJoe: he got an in-the-moment premier point guard in Bibby

    Bibby was already pretty washed up by then. Sacto basically gave him away. He was averaging 13.5 ppg on a TS% of .494 when Sacto traded him. He was solid, but far from premier for Atlanta.

    CRJoe: He also got a big, strong, versatile wing scorer

    That was a big splash, though. Joe Johnson was a free agent who Atlanta got by offering the most money. Your whole argument is that the Knicks aren’t likely to be able to make a big splash…

    CRJoe: So what I’m saying is, if you could get say Rudy Gay and Stephen Curry, for say… Jordan Hill, Toney Douglas, Extra E and the same picks we sent to Denver… You wouldn’t call it a great deal???

    ? Huh?

    CRJoe: Also remember that Billy pulled a Donnie in Atlanta, picking up a team that in the last few years before he got there, had made trades that would make Isiah shed tears in pride (Pau, the Sheed trades, Isaiah Rider…)

    ? Huh ? When was Pau in any way associated with the Hawks? Rasheed Wallace was traded for BY BILLY KNIGHT. I think you need to double check your facts on Knight.

  104. Robert Silverman

    Ted Nelson: When was Pau in any way associated with the Hawks?

    The Hawks drafted Pau Gasol/traded the pick that became Gasol straight up for Shareef Abdur-Rahim.

  105. Ben R

    I for one want no part of Selby. He isn’t a pure point guard and had about as bad of a college season as any prospect can have. I know there are reasons but at the end of the day poor play is poor play. We have a score first combo guard who is quite good in TD why do we want to draft another one.

    Selby has bust written all over him. I know he was good in high school but I want to see some signs at the college level before I spend a 1st on a 20 year old combo guard.

  106. taggart4800

    I think the knicks should draft a scorer with the 17th. The reason I like TD is he is capable of scoring 30 against an NBA defense. Guys like Fields, despite being valuable just haven’t got the game or self assurance to be that aggressive.
    I am not expecting the guy we draft to produce 30 pts every night but at least have the ability to do so. If you look at the really competitive teams now they have at least 4 people on their roster that when they are on can score big. Currently the knicks only have have 3 IMO and that is counting Billups and TD as .5 apiece. Billups is consistent but lacks the athleticism to ‘go off’ anymore and TD is far to inconsistent. Therefore when other teams play excellent D their is little in the way of ‘X-factor’ or more accurately bench scoring. D’Antoni was commenting throughout our brief playoff stint how much they needed someone to step up but it never happened.

  107. Ted Nelson

    I also doubt Selby is the guy to take, but I don’t know these prospects well enough to really know. I don’t think I even knew who Landry Fields was when the Knicks took him. More discussing him in the theoretical.

    Ben R: We have a score first combo guard who is quite good in TD why do we want to draft another one.

    Because by the time you get to the #17 pick there are only so many NBA players on the board most drafts, and this looks like an especially poor draft. I’m not saying Selby is the guy, but I’d take BPA (prospect, not player). I would not look at who is on my team in approaching the draft besides for at a very marginal level: i.e. in choosing between guys that the team projects to all have roughly the same value.

    Saying “we need a C and are set at combo-guard” and taking a crap C while leaving a strong combo-guard on the board is not a sound philosophy. You can trade TD or develop Selby behind him. I would really argue against Selby based on his individual merits, and not go with the draft for need angle.

    Ben R: I want to see some signs at the college level before I spend a 1st on a 20 year old combo guard.

    If you see some signs… everyone else is going to be seeing those same signs and Selby’s a lottery pick. 17 seems quite early for him and I doubt the Knicks will or should take him, but the idea is that he’s a buy low candidate. It’s a huge if, but if this is a guy who struggled as a freshman at a top program but would have turned it around as a sophomore or junior… you could be taking a 2012 or 2013 top 10 pick in 2011. I don’t know that Selby is the guy–I sort of doubt it–but with the #17 pick in a crappy draft taking a risk like that may be the best move dependent on who is on the board. Selby, Tyler, Bertans…

  108. Ted Nelson

    taggart4800: I think the knicks should draft a scorer with the 17th.

    They were the 7th offense and 22nd D in the league… if you’re going to draft for need I’d really go defense. They also got eaten up on the boards.
    And guys who are good bets to efficiently score 30 with any regularity are not lasting till the #17 pick in a crap draft anyway.

    taggart4800: Guys like Fields,

    Guys who are rookies?

    taggart4800: our brief playoff stint

    Billups was also hurt throughout the stint.

    taggart4800: If you look at the really competitive teams now they have at least 4 people on their roster that when they are on can score big.

    They also play defense… but anyway… LeBron, Wade, Bosh and… Bibby topped 20 once all season, including with Atl. Chalmers and Miller each topped 15 once in the regular season. Dirk, Terry and… Butler has one 30 point game and hasn’t played since Dec.

    I would not draft for need anyway, but I don’t think another scorer is their biggest need.

  109. Frank

    I have to agree with Ted on this one. The minute you start lowering your standards in the interest of “need” is the same minute you start drafting Frederic Weis, who Tapscott admitted back then was a pick in response to getting overwhelmed by Duncan and Robinson the year before. (NEWS FLASH: every team in the league was overwhelmed by playing against 2 top 10 bigs of all time, and Frederic Weis was never going to be the answer)

    This team has holes all over the place. While volume scoring on the starting unit is not a need, bench scoring definitely is. I honestly know little to nothing about Selby’s game – only what various outlets have written, which all tell me that he has tons of potential, knows how to score, can finish in traffic, and is a solid defender. These are not bad things. TD, for all his gifts, is much better playing off the ball instead of forcing long 2’s while wearing blinders, which is what he usually does when left to his own devices.

    The other thing is — there are very few players that really make a difference in the league. IMO probably 11-12 players on every 15-man roster are totally interchangeable/replaceable, which is why guys like Morey think building a roster with only true max players and rookie scale deals is the way to go. I’m not saying that Selby is the greatest thing since sliced bread – again, I don’t know much about him. But a guy with his athletic gifts is, I think, unlikely to be a complete bust (it seems to me that most complete busts – guys that are unable to contribute even off the bench – are unathletic bigs), and at worst will be a competent defender at the 1/2 position with middling offensive efficiency – maybe a backup combo guard, a 6th-7th man — Toney Douglas, Ronnie Brewer-types if you will. His ceiling could be Derrick Rose-ish. Not a bad gamble if the FO believes in his talent and ability to play well with others.

  110. Frank

    If we ARE going to draft a big for need, I wonder whether Vucevic is high on the radar. He appears to be kinda slow and not a great jumper based on his combine numbers, but he’s a good shooter, was a top 20 defensive rebounder in the NCAA (per 40), and is legit center sized. At the very least he could space the floor on offense, and just being 7′ tall and somewhat interested in rebounding would help us on defense.

  111. JK47

    Selby seems like a terrible idea to me. Color me unexcited about bringing in a “zero-guard” in the Tyreke Evans mold. We need a PG who can run the PnR, some guys who can rebound, big men who can play interior D… The last thing we need is an inefficient, shoot-first guard.

  112. Frank

    @125 – again, I’m not saying we SHOULD draft him, just saying that we shouldn’t be afraid to if the people who actually know him and have watched him play (scouts, Walsh, D’Antoni) think he’s the real deal. His pre-injury #s weren’t that bad, considering he was a freshman playing in a new system and told to play off the ball for the 1st time in his life. Per 36 – this is what it looked like:

    16 pts, 4.3 assists, 3.8 reb, TS 55.5%.
    He shot 81% from the FT line (although his FTA/FGA was only 20%) and a sizzling 43.5% from college 3.

    His post-injury #s were horrible, but if we can believe he wasn’t 100%, then maybe that’s forgivable.

    Again, not saying we SHOULD draft him – just that we shouldn’t be afraid to if the talent evaluators think he’s worth it. We all rely of draftexpress and other sites — they make for interesting reading, and they certainly know more about basketball than me, but don’t you think that if these guys were really AWESOME scouts they’d be working for a real team somewhere with a real paycheck rather than loading up their websites with annoying flashing banners and popups?

  113. Ted Nelson

    JK47: Selby seems like a terrible idea to me. Color me unexcited about bringing in a “zero-guard” in the Tyreke Evans mold. We need a PG who can run the PnR, some guys who can rebound, big men who can play interior D… The last thing we need is an inefficient, shoot-first guard.

    If you think he’s going to be inefficient forever, then obviously you don’t draft him. The idea would be that if you feel his efficiency will/could be their long-term you take him.

    As far as “we need” this and that… Not buying it at the #17 pick. Take the best prospect available. Not saying that’s Selby, but I don’t think need should much play into it.

    Frank: His pre-injury #s weren’t that bad

    Interesting. What’s the sample size of the pre- and post-injury #s? What was the injury?

    That’s absolutely the kind of stuff that can make for a draft steal… little stuff that disrupts the performance from its “real” level.

    I did read that Selby also played off the ball on his AAU team, not that I know any of the details.

  114. Frank

    Ted Nelson:
    Interesting. What’s the sample size of the pre- and post-injury #s? What was the injury?

    That’s absolutely the kind of stuff that can make for a draft steal… little stuff that disrupts the performance from its “real” level.

    I basically just totaled up his #s from Kansas prior to his injury (it was an ankle or foot injury I think – apparently they were considering sitting him for the rest of the season but he wanted to come back). In total it was only 346 minutes spread out over 13 games. He shot 27/62 from 3point range and 21/26 from the line. The other extenuating circumstance is that he came onto the team mid-season even before the injury, so if one were in the excuse-making mode, that would be another one.

  115. Ted Nelson

    Seems like the kind of thing that’s going to be seen as obvious however his career goes… He’s a bust and the character flags were obvious. He’s a stud and for the teams that passed it’s: how could you miss the injury, the late arrival on the team, the talent, etc.?

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