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Friday, October 31, 2014

Knicks Swept: Do Your Post-Game Wound-Licking Here…

Despite a nice little run in the second-half, our beloved Knickerbockers fell–again–to the hated Cs. Sigh.

Onto the off-season questions…

Who should stay?

Who should go?

Where can NY find some size in the frontcourt? Some perimeter depth?

Will any of this matter, given the specter of a lockout?

Thoughts on other playoff series?

153 comments on “Knicks Swept: Do Your Post-Game Wound-Licking Here…

  1. David Crockett

    The standard snark from Barkley on TNT.
    Whatever.
    Chris Webber with some actual insight.

  2. jon abbey

    anyone who posts firsties next year should be instantly banned.

    also, we should organize a boycott until Dolan sells the team. as I said yesterday, the stupidity and poor decision making permeates every layer of this organization, and the rot comes from the head.

  3. ess-dog

    Hopefully Jimmer falls to us since there are no real big men of which to speak in this draft. I think he could potentially be a Ty Lawson type steal.
    We’ll likely start Billups and bring the kid along slowly. It would be real nice if Jerome Jordan could eventually start but I’m not going to hold my breath. If we could start Stat/Jordan backed up by Shawne/Turiaf that’s good enough for me. Otherwise, we have to find a starting center somewhere.
    I guess Fields starts at the 2 and TD backs him up. Another year to gel.

    Billups/Fields/Melo/Stat/Jordan or ???

    subs: Jimmer/ TD/Balkman/Shawne/Turiaf

    Could be worse. Hell, maybe we can sign J. O’Neal to a one year deal? He looked pretty good out there.

  4. Jake S.

    While we’re indulging in fantasy: How about Fields, Billups and their first round pick for Augustin, Stephen Jackson’s bad contract and Tyrus Thomas’ bad contract?

    Augustin
    Jackson
    Melo
    Thomas
    STAT

    Douglas
    Walker
    Extra E
    Turiaf

    I smell a winner!

  5. David Crockett

    I’m feeling pissy right now, but the notion that NY didn’t play hard is bullshit.

    NY just could not throw it in the ocean in the first half. That’s not the same as playing indifferently.

  6. David Crockett

    ess-dog:

    Could be worse. Hell, maybe we can sign J. O’Neal to a one year deal? He looked pretty good out there.

    I was listening to the Boston radio broadcast for part of game 1 while I was out. They mentioned that O’Neal signed in Boston primarily because they would allow him to sit most of the regular season in order to be healthy for the playoffs.

  7. BigBlueAL

    David Crockett:
    I’m feeling pissy right now, but the notion that NY didn’t play hard is bullshit.

    NY just could not throw it in the ocean in the first half. That’s not the same as playing indifferently.

    The easiest analysis to spew is the “they didnt play hard” stuff.

    It is warranted at times but I totally agree not this series. They were just out-manned the last 2 games w/o Billups and a far from 100% Amar’e period.

  8. tenebrous

    Who do we back now? Do we back Boston because of the proximity to Ny? Or Miami since they have three guys that got us the gold medal? Denver is still alive? Atlanta has our prior player? Turn the tv off and wait for the preseaon? Don’t want to wary another POff game but sometimes there is nothing on tv. Spurs since they play – like a real system? Have no idea? Don’t like okc. Don’t like Portland. Def don’t like Orlando. Orlando is not making it past atlanta. There sould be a reality tv show now so we can at least see some practices. Have no idea what to write.

  9. Jake S.

    I agree with both of you. They did the best they could. And I found myself feeling weirdly grateful for the pain of those first two games. That kind of torture brought me back.

  10. BigBlueAL

    Jake S.:
    I agree with both of you. They did the best they could. And I found myself feeling weirdly grateful for the pain of those first two games. That kind of torture brought me back.

    Maybe Im being naive but the first 2 games of this series made the sweep fine with me. Not to mention the injuries to Amar’e and Billups obviously.

  11. BigBlueAL

    Judging from quotes on Twitter at least Doc Rivers and Paul Pierce like the Knicks future. lol

  12. daJudge

    BBA and others, I don’t think Dolan will sell the team, but I think we’re in for some really good hoop over the next several years. Sure, I have plenty of issues, but the Knicks have a foundation and they will improve. It was great to communicate with you all this season. Aside from the changes that are coming, I wish for Jimmer big time in the draft. I know he wants to play with the Knicks and he will be awesome. Time to turn my focus on the Mets.

  13. tenebrous

    There were some pretty bad calls that went against the Knicks and some that were not called especially on Stat at the end there. Kinda glad the Knicks stuck it to the NBA.

  14. BigBlueAL

    According to Paul Pierce: “They earned our respect . . . even though we won four games, they earned our respect.”

    Mission accomplished. lol

  15. tenebrous

    They went away from their offense. They scored over 100 all season – Because of melo and TD holding the ball. What a Shem.

  16. KnickInSeattle

    @22, I respectfully disagree.
    They went away from their offense, perhaps, but that would be on Billups being injured, and Boston being a good-to-great defensive team.

  17. CRJoe

    daJudge:
    BBA and others, I don’t think Dolan will sell the team, but I think we’re in for some really good hoop over the next several years.Sure, I have plenty of issues, but the Knicks have a foundation and they will improve.

    Just to point out… THIS is Knicks basketball for the next 4 years… Unless Fields and DWTDD improve dramatically or we stumble upon some sort of Sefolosha (an unappreciated player that thrives in our system), we are stuck with ‘Melo Stat and cast of scrubs, we don’t have financial flexibility, we don’t have valuable assets, we have 1 pick for the next 4 drafts (in, by far, the weakest draft pool) and we don’t have enough young talent to lure D Howard…

    With that being said I do enjoy this team, and will support them for the next half decade, even if it is completely obvious that they’re not gonna win anything worth winning…

  18. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    CRJoe: Just to point out… THIS is Knicks basketball for the next 4 years… Unless Fields and DWTDD improve dramatically or we stumble upon some sort of Sefolosha (an unappreciated player that thrives in our system), we are stuck with ‘Melo Stat and cast of scrubs, we don’t have financial flexibility, we don’t have valuable assets, we have 1 pick for the next 4 drafts (in, by far, the weakest draft pool) and we don’t have enough young talent to lure D Howard…

    With that being said I do enjoy this team, and will support them for the next half decade, even if it is completely obvious that they’re not gonna win anything worth winning…

    Quoted for the mother lovin’ truth.

  19. tenebrous

    KnickInSeattle:
    @22, I respectfully disagree.
    They went away from their offense, perhaps, but that would be on Billups being injured, and Boston being a good-to-great defensive team.

    …. That’s on MDA for not recognizing AC is pusher and have him out there for 48. Let him rest during the timeouts.
    @crjoe and the H you are so depressing.

  20. Frank

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Called it.

    Man I find you so annoying, and I would wager 99% of this board does too. You have all the smugness and snark of Ted Nelson with none of the insight. You’re actually the only person Spree8NYK8 was right about – you’d rather be right than have the Knicks win. Sorry that your BFFs Lawson and Blair don’t seem to be doing so well.

    Anyway, now that I have that off my chest…

    I still have lots of hope. Here’s why:

    1- I’m a knicks fan – gotta believe
    2- I don’t think 2.5 games with us playing without all our guys counts as any sort of referendum on anything.
    3- I think things like training camp are important

    In terms of keepers
    – we have 9 guys that are likely here whether we want them or not – STAT, Melo, Turiaf, Billups, Fields, TD, Walker, Balkman, and Rautins (9)
    – I would wager that Jerome Jordan will be here next year (10)
    – 1st round pick (no Jimmer please – we definitely don’t need a chucker at PG that can’t guard anyone – much as I like him) – that’s 11
    – figure we buy 1 or 2 2nd round picks – I’d like to see us take a flyer on Jeremy Tyler (12)
    – Derrick Brown is a RFA – can’t say he’s shown much. Let him go.
    – that leaves 3 more spots on the 15 man
    – I’d like to resign Shawne Williams, but he might get more money elsewhere.

    I think we dump JJ, RMJr, Shelden.

    Assuming we’re still trying to sign CP3 in 2012, we’ll only have 1 year deals and near vet’s min to spend.
    Guys I’d like to target in FA:
    – Earl Clark – big body, tall, young, has skills. UFA. Might come cheap? Maybe not.
    – Kurt Thomas – would love to see Crazy Eyes back

    Is a real training camp and these adds enough? Prob not unfortunately.

  21. tenebrous

    .And by the way a I’m gonna go out on a limb here but Boston didn’t win more than the Knicks lost

  22. tenebrous

    Imagine if there were three refs in a booth with whistles that are connected to the floor or the other refs – would be good. Honest at least. When Peirce took that ball away from Anthony he was out of bounds. Yeah maybe let the players call it. Or maybe have some TV refs with whistle ability next year for sure.

  23. dsulz

    I don’t know about picking up Billups’s option. I guess there’s not much of a choice. But the dude is seriously made of China at this point. Always love his game, but he’s gotta make an adjustment so that he’s playing in a way that keeps him healthy–obviously that’s not easy if you’ve been a warrior your whole career, but JKidd’s done it in Dallas. At this point though, I’d almost let Billups go in exchange for some interior help. TD might learn how to take care of the ball eventually, but without interior help we will never learn to rebound and I have to say that it’s a characteristic on this team that I find really irritating. You play defense get the stop and then. . .gotta do it all over, b/c ya didn’t crash the glass. I don’t know how you could measure this statistically, but my sense is that offensive boards are extremely demoralizing for a team’s defensive effort.

    Then again, is there even anybody out there who fits the rebounding bill that we need? One of Dallas’s bigs maybe, Chandler or Haywood? Any solid rebounders/interior presences in the draft we might possibly snag?

  24. CRJoe

    Yeah, I say screw Billups and let’s throw all our money at Marc Gasol… Maybe we luck out and can grab Battier or Tayshaun on the cheap, leaving us with some room to pick up a back up pg for Toney…

  25. rayhed

    let billups go… no way is he worth the money…. make a run at marc gasol- memphis prbly not gonna be able to match (i think)

  26. Frank

    Billups’s buyout still counts against the cap. From what I’ve read all we will have if we renounce him is MLE-level money. Not enough to make a splash. I thinks billups stays.

    Which is for the best anyway. I think we’ve already gotten a very ugly look at toney Douglas as our primary PG.

  27. MozgovZombie

    With D’Antoni’s defensive outlook being “Ok, let one guy beat you, but minimize as much from everyone else” (like forcing Rondo to shoot jumpers all night- it makes sense but Rondo was hitting them all in a winnable game). I hate it, but if thats what we have as a philosophy, lets maximize the offense as much as possible in the system. Only way- Get Nash to force a trade (which he will never do unless he plays the “I want a championship card”).
    Nash/Hakim Warrick’s bad contract for Billups/Balkmans contract and whatever else works (Rautins- cheap contract, white-guy hope replacement for the suns?)
    Lets put up a guaranteed 110-115 a night and hope for the best since that is what the coach does.

  28. hoolahoop

    Frank: The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Called it.Man I find you so annoying, and I would wager 99% of this board does too. You have all the smugness and snark of Ted Nelson with none of the insight. You’re actually the only person Spree8NYK8 was right about – you’d rather be right than have the Knicks win.

    Personally, I think his comments are far more insightful than yours – and without the vitriol.
    You seem to know nothing about basketball, then criticize other posters’ for they’re opinions that, usually correctly, are different from yours.
    If you ask me I think you and Spree make this board very unappealing.

    You and Spree probably drive dozens of people away.

  29. MozgovZombie

    rayhed: let billups go… no way is he worth the money…. make a run at marc gasol- memphis prbly not gonna be able to match (i think)

    Grizz will definitely match any offer for Gasol now that they have two games over the Spurs in a series that most people thought was a Spurs lock. They have a chance to sell season tickets for next year even if they lose the series. Stupid Zach Randolph screwing up our hypothetical plans!!! He sucks- I dont get it!!

  30. MozgovZombie

    tenebrous: Imagine if there were three refs in a booth with whistles that are connected to the floor or the other refs – would be good. Honest at least. When Peirce took that ball away from Anthony he was out of bounds. Yeah maybe let the players call it. Or maybe have some TV refs with whistle ability next year for sure.

    WHAT!!?? Then how can the NBA fix games unless Stern had a magic power whistle? Though, I figured the Knicks were good for two games based on ref calls, but they blew it.

  31. Frank

    MozgovZombie: Grizz will definitely match any offer for Gasol now that they have two games over the Spurs in a series that most people thought was a Spurs lock. They have a chance to sell season tickets for next year even if they lose the series. Stupid Zach Randolph screwing up our hypothetical plans!!! He sucks- I dont get it!!

    I haven’t watched Marc Gasol much except when they played the Knicks- I just don’t really see him as a fit for what we’re trying to do, although he looks to have pretty good basketball IQ, sort of like a rich man’s Turiaf. Is that at all accurate? I just haven’t seen him play much. he looks more the lumbering type than the quick long guys that dantoni seems to favor (assuming he’s still our coach next year).

    I’d almost rather have someone like Dalembert who is more of the prototypical block shots and rebound kind of guy.

    No matter, we can’t afford either anyway.

  32. tenebrous

    MDA is gone – not fair. He might not be a winning coach but he sure is a great cheerleader – if gone sorry to see him go. Calipari Is in. Rather have Adelman. Would def go for Magee, Jordan (from the clipers) and Ibaka if available. Heck I think Tabeet would be good here – probably would develop somewhat like Mazgov did or had the chance too. So Thabeet and another and Erol Barren for a rotator. Maybe some sharpshooters from Europe. Also Sessions could be an option. Also a healthy Azabuki would have been nice in these past few games. Fried looks very good – def would take him for rebounding as well. Dolan think long term and stop fradig everyone except for cp3 of course. Cp3, Jordan, Stat, Melo, Galo. Oh I forgot Fried.

  33. MozgovZombie

    Frank: I haven’t watched Marc Gasol much except when they played the Knicks- I just don’t really see him as a fit for what we’re trying to do, although he looks to have pretty good basketball IQ, sort of like a rich man’s Turiaf. Is that at all accurate? I just haven’t seen him play much. he looks more the lumbering type than the quick long guys that dantoni seems to favor (assuming he’s still our coach next year).I’d almost rather have someone like Dalembert who is more of the prototypical block shots and rebound kind of guy. No matter, we can’t afford either anyway.

    Gasol is a big body with some athleticism/youth- he can run the floor and can dish pretty well for a center… but then again, most of what I see is highlights- anyways Memphis will resign him.
    I would love a Dalembert- He’s like the Kurt Thomas-type we need, but unless the Kings do a straight up Billups for Dalembert it cant happen- Sam makes too much and then we have no good option at point (Hey, TD has heart but is not a point, just another Nate Robinson without the novelty of being short)

  34. Doug

    hoolahoop: Personally, I think his comments are far more insightful than yours – and without the vitriol.
    You seem to know nothing about basketball, then criticize other posters’ for they’re opinions that, usually correctly, are different from yours.
    If you ask me I think you and Spree make this board very unappealing.

    You and Spree probably drive dozens of people away.

    I’m one of the people driven away by Frank and Spree! There are dozens of us! DOZENS!

  35. MozgovZombie

    tenebrous: MDA is gone – not fair. He might not be a winning coach but he sure is a great cheerleader – if gone sorry to see him go. Calipari Is in. Rather have Adelman. Would def go for Magee, Jordan (from the clipers) and Ibaka if available. Heck I think Tabeet would be good here – probably would develop somewhat like Mazgov did or had the chance too. So Thabeet and another and Erol Barren for a rotator. Maybe some sharpshooters from Europe. Also Sessions could be an option. Also a healthy Azabuki would have been nice in these past few games. Fried looks very good – def would take him for rebounding as well. Dolan think long term and stop fradig everyone except for cp3 of course. Cp3, Jordan, Stat, Melo, Galo. Oh I forgot Fried.

    I like Thabeet but I also liked Anthony Randolph and he never had a chance here (I dont know why *cough Brewer too cough* wtf!)
    I really dont know why some guys fit and some guys dont- it seems so arbitraty, especially since there was a bidding war when Brewer was released.

  36. John Kenney

    I, for one, would be shocked if Jeffries isn’t back next year. And i hope Anthony Carter is too.

  37. yellowboy90

    Why not go after Aaron Affalo and some cheap back up bigs like Josh McRoberts and Kyrylo Fesenko. Maybe get Flynn away from Minny to have a true point as a back up by trading Douglas. Might even look at Douglas-Roberts. Take a big or best available in first and buy a second rounder or two. Maybe the guard from Mich.

  38. DS

    I think there is no way the Jazz will let Jimmer slip to the Knicks considering he already has fans in Utah, the Jazz have 2 lotto picks, and they just seem to like white guys like Gordon Hayward.

  39. MozgovZombie

    Oh, Jeffries is back for sure. He is super cheap and ya know, is awesome at covering point guards although he sometimes has to handle the center and totally can handle the ball and is a crunch time scorer…. (slaps forehead!). He should go back to college- he would dominate.

  40. tenebrous

    Rodriguz (from last year) was also a pusher – we could have def used him as well as Erol Barron. Anthony Randolph doesn’t play with his back to the basket which is what we need a la kg type. Anyway, Anthony Randolph’s game is made for a bigger larger court – something that doesn’t excit right now in the NBA.

  41. Frank

    John Kenney:
    I, for one, would be shocked if Jeffries isn’t back next year. And i hope Anthony Carter is too.

    If so JJ better be at the minimum. At that price he’s pretty good.

  42. John Kenney

    @54, true, we better not hand out a contract, but honestly, for all his faults, i don’t see how after this series anyone could seriously criticize him to the point of not wanting his defensive versatility on the team. in a functional five-man unit he wouldn’t have to take shots ever, and he’s got some use.

  43. citizen

    I think it would be interesting for someone to start collecting data on KB poster habits.

    There are basically 8 types of posts (some posts fit more than one territory):
    (1) observational
    (2) analytical
    (3) posts about other posters’ habits
    (4) “i told you so,” etc
    (5) ad hominem attacks / personal insults
    (6) attempts at mediating between KBer personal disputes
    (7) non-basketball
    (8) miscellaneous (“firsties,” posts about firsties, etc)

    Some really bored KBer with lots of time on their hands could go back over, say, the last 20 threads and get a count for all posters. Then we can see who is actually “driving people away” with personal insults, who actually tries to stay on topic, etc etc.

  44. MozgovZombie

    tenebrous: Anthony Randolph doesn’t play with his back to the basket which is what we need a la kg type.

    See, I always thought that was why he was part of the DLee trade- he’s a long athletic-type who plays under the basket but doesnt stop the ball. Every team needs a KG type who can pound inside or hit the mid-range (like amare!) but I figured Randolph was going to be a nice copy.. :(

  45. DS

    - ‘Melo for (a hopefully disgruntled) CP3.

    – Billups, Walker, and Shawne Williams for Chris Kaman

    CP3
    Douglas
    Fields
    Amar’e
    Kaman

  46. citizen

    DS:
    – ‘Melo for (a hopefully disgruntled) CP3.

    – Billups, Walker, and Shawne Williams for Chris Kaman

    CP3
    Douglas
    Fields
    Amar’e
    Kaman

    Do you really think that Dolan/Walsh will really trade Melo after this postseason?

  47. d-mar

    I was at the game today and stayed until the bitter end, and I have to say, I was getting kind of emotional at the end when the few people left gave the Knicks a standing O.

    It’s been a season with an incredible number of twists and turns, from the 3-8 start, to 14 out of 15, to Amare’s amazing run, to the Melo trade and then our first appearance in the playoffs in 7 years. As I stood there applauding, I turned to my son and said “if at the beginning of the free agent frenzy last year, I had told you we wouldn’t get LeBron, but as a “consolation prize” would end up with Stat and Melo, what would you have said?” And we both agreed that we would be pretty damn happy.

    Getting swept was a really shitty way to end the season, but next year with a full training camp and adding a few pieces, we should be a solid playoff team with a pretty bright future. As the bitter taste of this sweep wears off, let’s remember where we were a couple of years ago and where we are now.

  48. DS

    @60 – D,

    I like your positivity and you sound like a very good dad. I agree ‘Melo and STAT are a much more exciting 1-2 punch than David Lee and Al Harrington

    But I don’t share your optimism about the Knicks’ future. I can’t see how this team could conceivably leapfrog Chicago or Miami – whose cores are younger, deeper, and better – in the next few years. We are capped out out and have no depth. At least with Chandler, Felton, and Gallo we had 3 solid pieces under the age 30 – rather than one – who were cheaper combined than ‘Melo. Some readers of this blog would include A. Randolph and/or Mozgov.

  49. MozgovZombie

    citizen: Do you really think that Dolan/Walsh will really trade Melo after this postseason?

    More importantly, do we all want to look at Chris Kaman for that many games…??? I mean, actually have to look at him? :)
    But yeah, no way Melo gets traded- plus, I like Melo more than CP3- hes more versatile- he can post up against bigger players and put the ball on the floor- and this hypothetical lineup gets handled by the Heat in any round for at least the next five years.

  50. dsulz

    Gotta say, seeing how easily we bowed out of the first round, it doesn’t help to ease my bitterness about the trade. And it’s not fair to accuse those who feel how I feel of not wanting to win. We did want to win and were actually willing to give the team we had before a lot of time and patience to develop. It also didn’t hurt that we had a lot more cap space to get a decent big man. Before everyone who wanted the deal said now-now-now. Now they’re saying wait, this is a process it takes time. You ask me, I could see the process a lot more clearly when we had Felt, Gallo, Wil, Moz. . .and lots more cap space. Sorry to cry sour grapes, but until I see this team actually step up and show that they’re a better-than-average team (which they have not), then

    I’ll concede that to actually WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP, it probably helps to have a big time scorer like Anthony. That said, this really puts the cart before the horse. We’re nowhere near that level, even if Chauncy stays healthy. We have huge holes in this team: an aging pg who can’t be relied on consistently, a complete lack of accountability on the defensive glass, and a really really shallow bench. Oh, and we don’t run anymore, which so far has rendered Fields completely useless. So yeah, I’m bitter, but it’s not because I don’t want to win. I really, really do. But I look at what we have now, who our coach is, and our cap space, and I can’t really expect much for next year. And once Chauncy’s gone, we’ll have more cap space, but we’ll also need a starting pg now too. I’ll be overjoyed to be proven wrong, but I just don’t really see a lot of hope for this team beyond what we saw this year. Maybe if they fired D’Antoni and brought back Jeff Van Gundy. I think he’d be the perfect coach for this bunch, actually, someone who holds them accountable, unlike Milk Mustache Mike.

  51. tenebrous

    Anthony Randolph wasn’t given the chance. What chance? The chance to eat eat and eat some more. They should have been beefing him up the whole year while teaching him back to the basket moves. Also, his shot was suspect here on the east and not to mention he put TOO much pressure on himself. Heck, I felt pressure watchin him when bs stepped up on the court. Ok so the savor is Lisa Leslie. Actually Kamen might be the one together with Ibaka, Jordan and/or Magee. However Stats does need a Nash. And Stat needs to play the 3 while Melo plays the 2 – sorry but this is how I feel it.

  52. MozgovZombie

    DS: @60 – D, I like your positivity and you sound like a very good dad. I agree ‘Melo and STAT are a much more exciting 1-2 punch than David Lee and Al HarringtonBut I don’t share your optimism about the Knicks’ future. I can’t see how this team could conceivably leapfrog Chicago or Miami – whose cores are younger, deeper, and better – in the next few years. We are capped out out and have no depth. At least with Chandler, Felton, and Gallo we had 3 solid pieces under the age 30 – rather than one – who were cheaper combined than ‘Melo. Some readers of this blog would include A. Randolph and/or Mozgov.

    The problem is that we were going to get capped out anyways by resigning them in the coming years- Chandler and Gallo were outplaying their rookie contacts and Felton showed he could carry a team (He was only signed two years). Randolph and Mozgov were NBA players but couldnt see the floor for whatever reason (Mozgov only got minutes so they wouldnt demand Fields, IMO).
    So get capped out by a “star system” or get capped out by role players who may transcend…???

  53. dsulz

    MozgovZombie: , I like Melo more than CP3- hes more versatile- he can post up against bigger players and put the ball on the floor-

    Taken entirely alone, maaaaaybe. Placed in the actual context of our existing team? Are you serious??? CP3 destroys defenses running the p&R with Stat. Fields feasts off of Paul’s energy and ability to find him when he cuts under the basket. It’s amazing how many people just don’t understand the idea of a team, that success is not just about individual talent. It sounds cliche, but it’s so goddamn true, and the one person who needs to hear it most–Mr. James Dolan–will never, ever understand this. Truly a sad state of affairs.

  54. d-mar

    DS:
    @60 – D,

    I like your positivity and you sound like a very good dad. I agree ‘Melo and STAT are a much more exciting 1-2 punch than David Lee and Al Harrington

    But I don’t share your optimism about the Knicks’ future. I can’t see how this team could conceivably leapfrog Chicago or Miami – whose cores are younger, deeper, and better – in the next few years. We are capped out out and have no depth. At least with Chandler, Felton, and Gallo we had 3 solid pieces under the age 30 – rather than one – who were cheaper combined than ‘Melo. Some readersof this blog would include A. Randolph and/or Mozgov.

    Were we going to leapfrog Chicago and Miami with the team pre-trade? The Nuggets are showing in the playoffs vs. OKC what it’s like to be a team of “pieces” with no real stars. You can put together a nice regular season, but you aren’t going to Felton, Gallinari, Chandler, etc. for a big basket in crunch time.

  55. MozgovZombie

    tenebrous: Anthony Randolph wasn’t given the chance. What chance? The chance to eat eat and eat some more. They should have been beefing him up the whole year while teaching him back to the basket moves. Also, his shot was suspect here on the east and not to mention he put TOO much pressure on himself. Heck, I felt pressure watchin him when bs stepped up on the court. Ok so the savor is Lisa Leslie. Actually Kamen might be the one together with Ibaka, Jordan and/or Magee. However Stats does need a Nash. And Stat needs to play the 3 while Melo plays the 2 – sorry but this is how I feel it.

    haha Randolph ate his way out of the NBA… haha like its easier to make a shot in the east than the west even though his only good season was in the west… Anthony Randolph was/is a project player. He only had pressure because he never played. He was a totally legit prospect at Golden State with a similar program, yet we never played him… In case you didnt notice, the Knicks dont play a back to the basket game, so why would we expect a 21 yr old to do that?

  56. dsulz

    d-mar: Were we going to leapfrog Chicago and Miami with the team pre-trade? The Nuggets are showing in the playoffs vs. OKC what it’s like to be a team of “pieces” with no real stars. You can put together a nice regular season, but you aren’t going to Felton, Gallinari, Chandler, etc. for a big basket in crunch time.

    True, but the comparison is false for one very very important reason that for some reason advocates of the trade keep forgetting to acknowledge: cap space. We traded away flexibility and didn’t get enough back in return.

    Also, hate to say it, but I think our old team would have matched up really well against the Celts. We were younger and ran like crazy and given how old the Celts are, this might have been a very different series. Just sayin.

  57. BigBlueAL

    I gotta say, after watching D’Antoni’s post-game press conference today Im gonna miss him if he is fired. If he is done with the Knicks I wish him all the best in the future.

  58. tenebrous

    What r u reading? It’s harder to make a shot in the east – IMO. And I said they should have been feeding him so bs can get bigger and put on some weight. And, with the right training he would have been a sick (back to the basket or not a la KG-ish, but faster) @ at least 22 – 24 yrs of age. He’s not here though so go trade for him if you like him so much.

  59. BigBlueAL

    dsulz: True, but the comparison is false for one very very important reason that for some reason advocates of the trade keep forgetting to acknowledge: cap space.We traded away flexibility and didn’t get enough back in return.

    Also, hate to say it, but I think our old team would have matched up really well against the Celts.We were younger and ran like crazy and given how old the Celts are, this might have been a very different series.Just sayin.

    If the Knicks want, they can have a shitload of cap space in 2012.

  60. MozgovZombie

    dsulz: Taken entirely alone, maaaaaybe. Placed in the actual context of our existing team? Are you serious??? CP3 destroys defenses running the p&R with Stat. Fields feasts off of Paul’s energy and ability to find him when he cuts under the basket. It’s amazing how many people just don’t understand the idea of a team, that success is not just about individual talent. It sounds cliche, but it’s so goddamn true, and the one person who needs to hear it most–Mr. James Dolan–will never, ever understand this. Truly a sad state of affairs.

    I guess we just have a different understanding of team play. Since I think a PG like Felton (a lesser player than cp3- not that im saying he can be reacquired) could dish inside AND outside to Melo. Or Stat who has a good jumper!!!
    My comment was written in the context of trading Melo for CP3, which is not happening. But if you can get CP3 for our junk/picks- of course!!!
    Personally, i want Nash, Melo and Stat… (Fields and whatever)
    Ya know, several weeks ago, I take Fields as the ultimate versatile team player (Havlicek’s name was invoked!!) but he was INVISIBLE over the stretch- I think it was the rookie wall, but who knows- he dropped off after the trade.

  61. MozgovZombie

    tenebrous: What r u reading? It’s harder to make a shot in the east – IMO. And I said they should have been feeding him so bs can get bigger and put on some weight. And, with the right training he would have been a sick (back to the basket or not a la KG-ish, but faster) @ at least 22 – 24 yrs of age. He’s not here though so go trade for him if you like him so much.

    I think I will trade for him tomorrow. I will feed him and he will gain 1000 power points. Not like I thought he was a good fit in Dantoni’s system as a backup forward..
    But seriously, you do understand that the West has been the stronger conference for many years now? Randolph originally played in the West, on a bad team… is this logic settling in..???

  62. MozgovZombie

    tenebrous: @ 70: agreed.

    I agree the old Knicks/Knuggets would have fared better- but what about in two years when Chandler is like “I want 10 million/year” and Gallo is like “I want 12 million” and Felton wants 10…? I would rather have them as players but you need versatile players like Melo who are going to be able to get hot every night instead of hoping 1 of 3,4 players has it.
    Dont get me wrong, I still wear my Gallo jersey… :(

  63. hoolahoop

    citizen: Do you really think that Dolan/Walsh will really trade Melo after this postseason?

    No, but they should.
    The knicks will never be a legitimate contender as long as he’s here. (that’s not discounting that he’s one of the best scorers in the league)

  64. MozgovZombie

    Ok, so who do they reasonably (as in, the other team wants it more) move Melo for? He makes like 16 or 17 million dollars a year.
    I say we rock this league and get Gordon and Villanueva- bring Melo back where he belonged… Help Dumars out too…

  65. MozgovZombie

    MozgovZombie: Ok, so who do they reasonably (as in, the other team wants it more) move Melo for? He makes like 16 or 17 million dollars a year.I say we rock this league and get Gordon and Villanueva- bring Melo back where he belonged… Help Dumars out too…

    This is sarcastic.
    As for the season, Amare/Chandler/Felton/Gallo/Fields/Shw Williams were the best Knicks players this season. Melo is a great player and is integral to next seasons lineup… But the original roster had some chemistry!

  66. tenebrous

    @ 76: the Knicks can’t beat western teams? Hmmmm?
    @ 77: u get similar players as backup and choose your 1 or 2 to pay.
    Both melo and Stat were given plenty of space to operate in the west. In case you haven’t noticed it’s different here in the east.

  67. hoolahoop

    dsulz: Gotta say, seeing how easily we bowed out of the first round, it doesn’t help to ease my bitterness about the trade. And it’s not fair to accuse those who feel how I feel of not wanting to win. We did want to win and were actually willing to give the team we had before a lot of time and patience to develop. It also didn’t hurt that we had a lot more cap space to get a decent big man. Before everyone who wanted the deal said now-now-now. Now they’re saying wait, this is a process it takes time. You ask me, I could see the process a lot more clearly when we had Felt, Gallo, Wil, Moz. . .and lots more cap space. Sorry to cry sour grapes, but until I see this team actually step up and show that they’re a better-than-average team (which they have not), then

    I agree, but I think the majority of people here, like the general fan base and most of the talking heads in the media screaming for the trade, like having Melo on this team, despite the failure of this experiment.
    Sure, the knicks have a better roster than a year ago, but that’s the natural progression of creating cap space and going after big fish to play in the number one market.
    The knicks were a solid mid-tier team with a lot of young guys and low payroll with cap space to fill the gaps – Big man in middle, upgrade at PG.
    Now, after the trade for Melo, the knicks need – Big man in middle, upgrade at PG AND more depth- but no cap space to make it happen.
    Over the next few seasons, this team will not get past the second round in the playoffs. Overly optimistic and/or delusional knicks fans will think the team can go further, but it will never happen. At least, we can hope and fool ourselves now which is the best it’s been in a long time.

  68. Brian Cronin

    It is ridiculous that Willie Green is somehow the clutch time scoring option for the Hornets.

    Another monster game from Paul – 27 points, 14 rebounds and 13 assists. Are you kidding me!??!

  69. tenebrous

    I would take clyde as coach as well – think he knows some stuff. If Dolans best friend is back as coach – I’m backing the nets or someone else.

  70. Brian Cronin

    Big time shot by Jarrett Jack. Maybe he should have been the 2 these last few minutes instead of Green, Monty!

  71. MozgovZombie

    tenebrous: @ 76: the Knicks can’t beat western teams? Hmmmm?@ 77: u get similar players as backup and choose your 1 or 2 to pay.Both melo and Stat were given plenty of space to operate in the west. In case you haven’t noticed it’s different here in the east.

    Hey, the Knicks can barely beat the Eastern Cavs… Personally, I dont care what city your team is in, but if you cant put away the crap of the east, what can you say about the west? Knicks had some good games against the Spurs and such but seriously, PUT AWAY the GARBAGE EAST TEAMS!! The west has better teams- if you deny that, then we have very different scales of judgement, which is ok.
    When you pay certain mediocre core players over 10-12 million, it limits your options on getting ‘similar players as backups’ especially when you have no future draft picks.

  72. BigBlueAL

    Its official, Chris Paul-Amar’e-Melo and 12 of us could win the NBA title because Paul is still that amazing.

  73. Brian Cronin

    Totally.

    Which is why I can’t write this deal off just yet, because Melo might very well still bring the Knicks Chris Paul. Look at the team that just defeated the Lakers!! Willie Green was playing big-time clutch minutes! Jason Smith! Aaron Grey! DJ Mbenga!! Jarrett Jack is one of their best players! What could Paul do with Amar’e and Melo?!? It boggles the mind!

    That said, if Paul (or D-Will, who is nearly as good as Paul) doesn’t come here, then yeah, the trade was a disaster.

  74. MozgovZombie

    LOL! I was just thinking about what sort of crazy Jerome James-money Aaron Grey is going to get even though I have no clue if he is a FA!!

  75. Shad0wF0x

    I’m still going back and forth whether a defensive rebounding center or a pg is a more important piece for the team. After watching Chris Paul tonight, I’m really salivating over a potential CP3/Melo/STAT trio.

  76. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Doug: I’m one of the people driven away by Frank and Spree! There are dozens of us! DOZENS!

    Anthony Carter actually has a similar body type as that of Tobias Funke.

  77. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Brian Cronin:
    What could Paul do with Amar’e and Melo?!? It boggles the mind!

    Amar’e’s play this year seems to indicate that much of his value is tied to a great point guard. I truly believe that there is no one in the league that can improve players more than Chris Paul. I think Rondo might be in a similar class, but Paul is head and shoulders above the rest. All this talk of him being washed up this season has been complete hogwash. He had a career year for anyone in the league not named LeBron or Howard.

  78. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin:
    Totally.

    Which is why I can’t write this deal off just yet, because Melo might very well still bring the Knicks Chris Paul. Look at the team that just defeated the Lakers!! Willie Green was playing big-time clutch minutes! Jason Smith! Aaron Grey! DJ Mbenga!! Jarrett Jack is one of their best players! What could Paul do with Amar’e and Melo?!? It boggles the mind!

    That said, if Paul (or D-Will, who is nearly as good as Paul) doesn’t come here, then yeah, the trade was a disaster.

    But if they didnt make the trade and CP3 or D-Will wouldnt have come here then what?? Why assume if they didnt trade for Melo this team would be so much better in a couple of seasons if they still dont wind up with CP3/D-Will/Dwight??

  79. Brian Cronin

    But if they didnt make the trade and CP3 or D-Will wouldnt have come here then what?? Why assume if they didnt trade for Melo this team would be so much better in a couple of seasons if they still dont wind up with CP3/D-Will/Dwight??

    The disaster aspect is the opportunity cost. If they don’t get Paul or D-Will, then this is not a team that will be better than Chicago or Miami for the next several years (unless they get extremely lucky on the few first rounders they didn’t trade away to get Melo), especially this coming season, where they cannot add anyone as a free agent specifically because of the D-Will/Paul situation. If they didn’t make the Melo trade and didn’t get Paul or D-Will, they still had plenty to work with, even had they re-signed Chandler to a decent-sized contract. That isn’t to say that this alternate reality team that didn’t make the Melo trade would be some awesome team, it is very possible that they would settle into the same territory that the team likely will with Melo but without Paul (roughly 45-50 wins, possible second round of the playoffs), but they would have had a real opportunity to be much, much better. An opportunity that the current team (sans Paul) does not have. No cap space, few draft picks, no depth, not a ton of young players who might develop (basically just Toney and Fields, and the latter, as we have seen, is totally ill-equipped to play in an iso offense) – the first chance this team will have to add an impact free agent (provided they don’t get Paul) is 2012. That would be the start. They’d be beginning in 2012, with a 30 year old Amar’e and a 28 year old Melo and not a lot of cap space. That’s not a good plan, and I think the Knicks know that.

    So essentially, they are putting all of their eggs in the “Getting Melo gets you Chris Paul” basket. They’re betting all their chips on the “Getting Melo gets you Chris Paul” spot on the roulette wheel. They’re spending their last dollar on the “Getting Melo gets you Chris Paul” lottery ticket.

    If their bet pays off, it pays off big, no doubt. But it is a huge opportunity cost, one that is only worth it if they had strong knowledge that it was a likely result (I’m certainly hoping that they did).

  80. tenebrous

    We got robbed during the regular season vs the celts on that Amare 3 where we should have had more time on the clock and in seeds 4 games. Celts are gonna lose the next series cause I’m gonna back the other team – just because.

  81. tenebrous

    @ 87: I don’t know Melos game but having WC and Galo and Felton – that whole team – was probably a better building block than this trade. However, I do hope Melo learns how to play in a team system. Having said that, I do believe that once Melo buys into his teammates and begins to trust them more I’d rather have him on my team – the downside is that that might take a while or a long time while we wanted to win more games now – wishful thinking perhaps but thinking it is. Having said that I can’t believe he even had 32 points today – aside from those two dunks (passes from AC) can’t remember any of his shots. This makes him great or not have no idea. But not demanding the ball and clearing out like in Denver in a POff game sounds like he was also hurt. So all 3 are hurt – who do we sign now. Heck I would have worked with the old 3 years ago squad plus Amare, Mozzy and Randolph, Turi and a healthy Azabuki.

  82. jon abbey

    the disaster was LeBron not signing here. we were never going to win a title after that.

  83. latke

    As long as the MLE is around, the difference is next to negligible in terms of available money for free agents. Without Billups (but including his buyout), if the cap figure stays the same, we have $51 million in salary due to 8 players. Add cap holds for 4 roster spots, and you get $53 million. The cap this season was $58 million. That leaves about $5 million in cap space. The MLE was about $6 million this year i believe, so we’d actually have less money.

    Let’s be honest here though: While I agree that a point guard that can control the offense in a way that allows Melo and Amare’s offensive games to complement one another would make a world of difference (especially if that point guard is chris paul), I think people are overlooking how competitive the knicks were in Boston. If Landry Fields could have contributed in a meaningful way, we could have been headed back to New York up 2-0. The guys at every other position made contributions.

    Walker and Fields were a combined 15 of 45 from the field, 3 of 15 from 3, and 2 of 7 from the free throw line. That’s a TS% of 31%. I think if we just had a guy like Raja Bell or Anthony Parker — someone who would chase allen off shots and didn’t panic every time he had an open look — we might have seen a different series.

  84. Brian Cronin

    the disaster was LeBron not signing here. we were never going to win a title after that.

    There’s no doubt that the Knicks missing out on Lebron was devastating (especially since so much of their plan was wrapped around getting two Max free agents in 2010, since they could then re-up WC and keep all of their young assets either for themselves or for acquiring Chris Paul), but Paul/Melo/Amar’e could win a title. They likely wouldn’t be favorites, but they could win a title (and that’d just be in Year 1 – their odds would improve if they added pieces in the future).

  85. tenebrous

    Did Melo even take his new teammates out? Did he say to them I’m not goon for 30 each night as long as you guys get 15 a piece? Really he did that. Great – so his guys didn’t step up. Now you know why WC and Gallo were better for this team? it’s done, it’s over with – let’s hope Melo turns into a better WC that’s all I can say. Melonwill never have the 3 point range but hey let’s see how he demands the ball or plays support like WC did and make those hard shots like Gallo did. He can’t? He might. Who knows?

  86. Doug

    Melo doesn’t have 3 point range? I know you weren’t under a rock the past two months, ‘Brous.

  87. rmack15

    The Knick definitely wouldn’t turn into a championship team just by getting Chris Paul. They need a little something called defense. You can’t be 27th in the league at defense and expect to make it anywhere in the playoffs. D’antoni is an offensive minded coach and i’d hate to day it but NO offensive minded coach will ever win a championship. They may come close, but they will always get beat by a great defensive team. Carmelo is completely overrated and he always will be until he learns that there is more to basketball than just scoring. Notice how Denver got better when he left and the Knicks got worse. The Knicks should have kept WC and DG and RF and waited to try and sign Melo in the off-season. But bottom line is if you think that signing Chris Paul makes NY a championship contender than you clearly don’t understand what makes a team great. Chris Paul would definitely make ny better, but they still have a lot more changes to make if they want a ring anytime soon..

  88. Doug

    jon abbey:
    the disaster was LeBron not signing here. we were never going to win a title after that.

    Still on that Lebron tip, after all this time? There’s no point in even bringing it up.

  89. Brian Cronin

    Melo doesn’t have 3 point range? I know you weren’t under a rock the past two months, ‘Brous.

    You know what I don’t get – why didn’t Denver let him shoot more threes?

  90. tenebrous

    Doug:
    Melo doesn’t have 3 point range? I know you weren’t under a rock the past two months, ‘Brous.

    Bow do you know? The Knicks are a pretty heavy rock to be under. Yeah sorry, I actually meant catch and shoot 3s like a WC, Gallo, SW, even Al Herrington. Anyway, I wish Melo the best and even better than I can even think of.

  91. tenebrous

    Melonsef doesn’t have WC 3 point range – do you see how WC shoots – how he prepares his shot. Melons different – Melo thinks of speed first – getting the shot off first while WC and Walker think of distance. Anyway, Melo is on NY and he played better than I anticipated aside from the POffs. Wish him the BEST – regardless. He is from BK afterall.

  92. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: You know what I don’t get – why didn’t Denver let him shoot more threes?

    I forgot which writer wrote about this but I know one of the Knick beat writers talked about that throughout the season Shawne and Mason were the only 2 guys who would stay after practice shooting extra 3pters every day. After the trade Melo apparently joined them in staying after practice taking extra 3pters.

    I expect to see Melo become a near 40% 3pt shooter who makes over 100 3pters a season, if not close to 150 a season in the coming years. Hell with the Knicks in 27 games he went 53 for 125 for a 42% clip from 3pt range. If he does that and keeps his current FT rate than his near 58% TS% he had with the Knicks this season will be normal.

  93. jon abbey

    Doug: Still on that Lebron tip, after all this time? There’s no point in even bringing it up.

    “all this time”=nine months. if the goal is a championship, that was the one way we had a genuine chance of getting there. nothing else that has happened to the franchise since then matters at all by comparison.

  94. rmack15

    If you think Melo is a player that will take any team to a championship then you are sadly mistaken. He only cares about offense and until that changes he will never be great. He’s immature and he is god awful at defense. Plus he can definitely be a ballhog at times. But either way, the Knicks are FAR from being a championship contender, and I can’t stress enough their need for defense. They won’t go anywhere until the completely flip flop into a great defensive team.

  95. Doug

    jon abbey: “all this time”=nine months. if the goal is a championship, that was the one way we had a genuine chance of getting there. nothing else that has happened to the franchise since then matters at all by comparison.

    Nine months is a long time to me. I just don’t understand very well why you continue to dwell on something the Knicks had no control over.

  96. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Brian Cronin:
    So essentially, they are putting all of their eggs in the “Getting Melo gets you Chris Paul” basket. They’re betting all their chips on the “Getting Melo gets you Chris Paul” spot on the roulette wheel. They’re spending their last dollar on the “Getting Melo gets you Chris Paul” lottery ticket.

    Precisely. Great post, but the responses will be few, and from the choir, as it were.

    The Magic, I think, did the same thing when trading for Arenas. If Howard splits (and he almost certainly will), that’s going to be one ugly, old, awful team.

  97. jon abbey

    Doug: Nine months is a long time to me. I just don’t understand very well why you continue to dwell on something the Knicks had no control over.

    because they did have some control over it. they botched the 2009 draft as badly as anyone could have and then they didn’t sell James well enough on what should have been the easiest choice of his life. if we had a truly well-run organization in place for the last few years, James might have taken his talents to the place they should have been.

  98. rmack15

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Precisely. Great post, but the responses will be few, and from the choir, as it were.

    The Magic, I think, did the same thing when trading for Arenas. If Howard splits (and he almost certainly will), that’s going to be one ugly, old, awful team.

  99. Nick C.

    But wasn’t that kinda the selling point to begin with beyond the “we must get Melo..he’s a top 10 player, need stars yadayada…”?

  100. Frank

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Precisely. Great post, but the responses will be few, and from the choir, as it were.
    The Magic, I think, did the same thing when trading for Arenas. If Howard splits (and he almost certainly will), that’s going to be one ugly, old, awful team.

    Fair point– but a few differences. First, Arenas is a shell of his former self, and has no hope of ever performing to that level again due to unfortunate injuries. Orlando knew that, and still made an awful trade. Second, Amare and Melo are signed through 2014-15 (I think), so the Howard splitting comparison isn’t quite right.

    You are right though – once we traded the farm for Melo, we put all our eggs towards the hope of getting CP3 and/or Howard in 2012 to put us over the top.

    For the record, I was against the trade if it included anything more than Chandler, Curry, and maybe a pick or two (you can go back and read my posts around that time). The Felton/Billups swap was fine with me, as much as I loved the toughness that Felton brought. I would never have signed off on the trade once Gallo and Mozgov were included – this was one of the worst high-stakes poker showings I’ve ever seen.

    That said – there IS something to be said for getting what you can get when you can get it. Even if we had passed on the trade, there is no guarantee that Howard, CP3, or D-Will would have come in 2012. There’s still no guarantee that any of them will even be available in 2012. Felton would have expired and we would have had ~$31M in cap commitments going into 2012 summer (~20 to STAT, 7 to Gallo as qualifying offer, 2 to TD, and ~2-3 to Mozgov). Assuming the cap would be ~60M and that the max salary starting point would be ~15M, it still would have been extremely difficult to sign 2 max FAs. Not to mention we all know what happened last time we put all our eggs into a FA basket.

  101. rmack15

    dsulz:
    Gotta say, seeing how easily we bowed out of the first round. Sorry to cry sour grapes, but until I see this team actually step up and show that they’re a better-than-average team (which they have not), then

    I’ll concede that to actually WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP, it probably helps to have a big time scorer like Anthony.That said, this really puts the cart before the horse.We’re nowhere near that level, even if Chauncy stays healthy.We have huge holes in this team: an aging pg who can’t be relied on consistently, a complete lack of accountability on the defensive glass, and a really really shallow bench.Oh, and we don’t run anymore, which so far has rendered Fields completely useless.So yeah, I’m bitter, but it’s not because I don’t want to win.I really, really do.But I look at what we have now, who our coach is, and our cap space, and I can’t really expect much for next year.And once Chauncy’s gone, we’ll have more cap space, but we’ll also need a starting pg now too.I’ll be overjoyed to be proven wrong, but I just don’t really see a lot of hope for this team beyond what we saw this year.Maybe if they fired D’Antoni and brought back Jeff Van Gundy.I think he’d be the perfect coach for this bunch, actually, someone who holds them accountable, unlike Milk Mustache Mike.

    Thank you! Finally someone with some freakin sense! I don’t understand why everyone seems to think that by signing Chris Paul the Knicks will transform into a championship caliber team. They’re definitely going to need a coaching change ( Jeff Van Gundy being a great choice since he is DEFENSIVE MINDED and the Knicks were 27th in the league in that department this year!!!) Plus a quality defensive big man. Everyone seems to think Melo is a great player on here, which I beg to differ, until he develops an ALL AROUND game he will NEVER be great.

  102. Frank

    What really kills me is all the included draft picks. The fact that we threw all that in there sort of makes me think/hope that CP3 is already in the bag. Which is not ALL THAT unrealistic. The big three of Amare/Melo/Paul DID come right out of Chris Paul’s mouth.

  103. Frank

    rmack15: Thank you! Finally someone with some freakin sense! I don’t understand why everyone seems to think that by signing Chris Paul the Knicks will transform into a championship caliber team. They’re definitely going to need a coaching change ( Jeff Van Gundy being a great choice since he is DEFENSIVE MINDED and the Knicks were 27th in the league in that department this year!!!) Plus a quality defensive big man. Everyone seems to think Melo is a great player on here, which I beg to differ, until he develops an ALL AROUND game he will NEVER be great.

    I’d love to see JVG back here also — listening to him on the broadcast yesterday made me miss the ol’ late 90s Knicks defense even more.

    Meanwhile – I think you are underestimating the effect Chris Paul would have. He is taking a team which currently has one other player on it that could start on any other playoff team (Okafor) and giving the defending champs all they can handle. There are only a few players in this league who would be underpaid at $25-30M/year and he is one of them.

    Re: the Knicks defense – was actually pretty good this series. IMO the main reason we lost was because we couldn’t hit open shots either at the rim or from the 3 point line.

  104. rmack15

    T

    Frank:
    What really kills me is all the included draft picks. The fact that we threw all that in there sort of makes me think/hope that CP3 is already in the bag. Which is not ALL THAT unrealistic. The big three of Amare/Melo/Paul DID come right out of Chris Paul’s mouth.

    .Frank:
    What really kills me is all the included draft picks. The fact that we threw all that in there sort of makes me think/hope that CP3 is already in the bag. Which is not ALL THAT unrealistic. The big three of Amare/Melo/Paul DID come right out of Chris Paul’s mouth.

    The big 3 of Paul/melo/amare doesn’t even compare to Miamis big 3 though. The defense isn’t even 1/3 what Lebron/Wade offer alone. Yall are in for a huge disappointment if you really think that Paul coming to NY will solve all the problems that the Knicks have had this year.

  105. Frank

    Paul is an excellent defender – he was 1st team All-NBA defense in 08-09 and 2nd team ins 07-08. Amare is a pretty bad one-on-one defender especially at the 5, but is a pretty decent weak-side help defender. Melo is probably average to above-average, certainly when he really applies himself, like he did the last part of the season.

    And while the individual talents of Paul/Melo/Amare may be less than Wade/Lebron/Bosh, Lebron and Wade pretty much replicate each other, so the sum of our possible big 3 may be equal or more. Maybe. But not that far off in any case, IMO.

  106. rmack15

    Frank: I’d love to see JVG back here also — listening to him on the broadcast yesterday made me miss the ol’ late 90s Knicks defense even more.

    Meanwhile – I think you are underestimating the effect Chris Paul would have. He is taking a team which currently has one other player on it that could start on any other playoff team (Okafor) and giving the defending champs all they can handle. There are only a few players in this league who would be underpaid at $25-30M/year and he is one of them.

    Re: the Knicks defense – was actually pretty good this series. IMO the main reason we lost was because we couldn’t hit open shots either at the rim or from the 3 point line.

    Whoopty doo they are giving LA all they can handle…? Lets see who else has done that in recent years… The Rockets did it a couple years back even while losing Yao. OKC did it last year, not saying OKC is a bad team or anything but I don’t think the series should have gone to 7 games. Also if you haven’t noticed LA likes to put it in cruise control every couple games and they tend to blow games off A LOT. And if your really trying to justify NYs defense through this 4 game sweep then we simply won’t agree. They were 27th in the league in defense this year, BY FAR the worst in the playoffs this year. If your okay with that, then I hope your okay with getting knocked out of the playoffs early every year.

  107. rmack15

    Frank:
    Paul is an excellent defender – he was 1st team All-NBA defense in 08-09 and 2nd team ins 07-08.Amare is a pretty bad one-on-one defender especially at the 5, but is a pretty decent weak-side help defender.Melo is probably average to above-average, certainly when he really applies himself, like he did the last part of the season.

    And while the individual talents of Paul/Melo/Amare may be less than Wade/Lebron/Bosh, Lebron and Wade pretty much replicate each other, so the sum of our possible big 3 may be equal or more. Maybe.But not that far off in any case, IMO.

    Melos defense average to above average? Haha that’s laughable if you ask me. Maybe if he put some effort into it but let’s be honest, that’s rarely the case. Agreed Lebron and Wade replicate themselves but they are learning more and more to play alongside eachother and will be VERY dangerous in the yearss to come. Don’t get me wronf, Chris Paul will be a great pick up, but there are A LOT more holes to fill if NY wants to be a legitimate contender. Just because they made the playoffs in the east doesn’t mean they are close.

  108. rmack15

    And Chris Paul 1st team 08-09, 2nd team 07-08? What about the past 2 years? Lebron is 1st team every year and Wade has improved his defense to that caliber too. CP3 can’t play defense near Lebron or Waded level…

  109. tenebrous

    Why are some of you so harp on mistakes as opposed to solutions? Maybe you guys should go and train the team.

  110. Brian Cronin

    What really kills me is all the included draft picks. The fact that we threw all that in there sort of makes me think/hope that CP3 is already in the bag. Which is not ALL THAT unrealistic. The big three of Amare/Melo/Paul DID come right out of Chris Paul’s mouth.

    The swap in 2016 was particularly galling, wasn’t it? After the deal already stunk, we learn later on, “Oh yeah, and Denver also gets to swap picks in 2016.” So the Knicks won’t have their first round pick in 2012, 2014 and 2016 (at least in 2016 they will get a first round pick, and if they get Chris Paul, that 2016 pick will hopefully be so high that Denver doesn’t even want it).

    Thank goodness Utah took Gordon Haywood this past draft – I am pleased we don’t have to worry about that lost pick coming back to haunt the Knicks.

  111. Frank

    rmack15:
    And Chris Paul 1st team 08-09, 2nd team 07-08? What about the past 2 years? Lebron is 1st team every year and Wade has improved his defense to that caliber too. CP3 can’t play defense near Lebron or Waded level…

    Look, I’m not really arguing with you. Obviously Lebron/Wade are great defenders. I’m just saying that Paul is really good. He was injured for much of 09-10 so that’s why he wasn’t on that team. And 10-11 hasn’t even been picked yet.

    All I’m really trying to get across is that TOTAL of Lebron+Wade+Bosh may not be all that much greater than CP3+Melo+Amare. I agree that LBJ is the best player of those 6. I think CP3 and Wade are quite comparable. I think Melo and Amare are BOTH better than Bosh.

    I would also say that CP3+Melo+Amare would be a serious problem for any team in any playoffs, LBJ, Derrick Rose, or not. What would we need with that team? We’d need a wing defender who can shoot the 3 and a Tyson Chandler-esque player at the 5. Those players are find-able. I’m not saying it’ll be easy, but I can see LOTS of players wanting to come and play with CP3.

  112. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    dubisaweapon: How any Knicks fan can feel good about posting something like that here is beyond me.

    Because Dolan is running the team into the ground. Don’t worship the uniform.

  113. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Frank: Look, We’d need a wing defender who can shoot the 3 and a Tyson Chandler-esque player at the 5.

    True Shooting Pct 2010-11

    1. Tyson Chandler-DAL .697
    2. Nene Hilario-DEN .656
    3. Arron Afflalo-DEN .620
    4. Paul Pierce-BOS .620
    5. Chauncey Billups-TOT .617
    6. Dwight Howard-ORL .616
    7. Ray Allen-BOS .615
    8. Richard Jefferson-SAS .612
    9. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL .612
    10. Kevin Martin-HOU .601

    See the gap between Chandler, Nene, and everyone else? Those kind of players are NOT easy to find.

  114. Frank

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: True Shooting Pct 2010-11

    1.Tyson Chandler-DAL.697
    2.Nene Hilario-DEN.656
    3.Arron Afflalo-DEN.620
    4.Paul Pierce-BOS.620
    5.Chauncey Billups-TOT.617
    6.Dwight Howard-ORL.616
    7.Ray Allen-BOS.615
    8.Richard Jefferson-SAS.612
    9.Dirk Nowitzki-DAL.612
    10.Kevin Martin-HOU.601

    See the gap between Chandler, Nene, and everyone else? Those kind of players are NOT easy to find.

    OK fine not Tyson Chandler-esque. I just mean a guy that rebounds and plays D as priorities 1 through 8. As long as he’s not a complete zero (ie. Jared Jefferies or Reggie Evans) on the offensive end, that’ll be good enough for me. TS of 60+ would be nice obviously but given this fantasy player’s usage will probably be in the 10-12 range with all the shots being taken by the rest of the crew, it’s not so necessary. Even players like Jeff Foster, Omer Asik, Gortat, or Chuck Hayes would be great. Or from the past – an Antonio Davis-like player.

    BTW I chose those 5 names because they were all unheralded guys coming into this league. Foster- 1st round 21st pick. Asik, 2nd round. Gortat, 2nd round. Hayes, undrafted. Antonio Davis – 2nd round,45th pick by Donnie Walsh.

    With CP3, Melo, and STAT, we don’t need Nene or Dwight Howard in the middle, as nice as that would be. We need a blue-collar tough-guy type that does the dirty work. Those guys are the ones who fall through the cracks on draft day, and who Donnie Walsh has some history of finding.

  115. rmack15

    Frank: Look, I’m not really arguing with you. Obviously Lebron/Wade are great defenders. I’m just saying that Paul is really good. He was injured for much of 09-10 so that’s why he wasn’t on that team. And 10-11 hasn’t even been picked yet.

    All I’m really trying to get across is that TOTAL of Lebron+Wade+Bosh may not be all that much greater than CP3+Melo+Amare.I agree that LBJ is the best player of those 6. I think CP3 and Wade are quite comparable. I think Melo and Amare are BOTH better than Bosh.

    Honestly dude Melo is nothing but a cancer. He is a one sided player with a terrible attitude. How do you people not understand this? He never did anything special for Denver and what makes you think that will change in NY? I promise you that you will see that CP3 isn’t going to take yall from where yall are to championsship contenders. There is so much more that will need to be time than that. I remember when NY got Melo, all NY fans thought they were going to be unstoppable, but what happened? They just became worse. I promise you that a new coach is needed that will transform the defense, and a good defensive big man. Those changes+CP3 would give NY a legitimate chance to contend.

  116. Frank

    rmack15: Honestly dude Melo is nothing but a cancer. He is a one sided player with a terrible attitude. How do you people not understand this? He never did anything special for Denver and what makes you think that will change in NY? I

    I remember when NY got Melo, all NY fans thought they were going to be unstoppable, but what happened? They just became worse. I promise you that a new coach is needed that will transform the defense, and a good defensive big man. Those changes+CP3 would give NY a legitimate chance to contend.

    LOL – who actually thought the Knicks would be “unstoppable” after the trade?

    Go back and read all the threads – the vast majority of us thought the offense would probably get a little better and the defense would get worse. And that’s pretty much what happened. Even the people in favor of the Melo trade were pretty sure it would make us worse in the short run.

    Re: him being a “cancer”. Not sure on what grounds you say that. Last I checked, Denver was in the playoffs every year in a stacked conference, and were in the WCF a couple years ago. So he hasn’t won a championship– LOTS of players haven’t, including LBJ, Durant, etc etc.

    I’ve found myself in the Melo-defender camp somehow only because we don’t know this guy from a hole in the ground and yet some people keep wanting to take personal potshots at him. He’s been depicted as selfish — why? Because he was contractually allowed to declare for free agency and, unlike Lebron, told Denver early enough that they could make contingency plans (thereby fleecing the Knicks). It’s easy for us to sit here and say “I would have taken less money to go to FA and play with a better team”, but it’s certainly not your $40M+ that’s on the line with that.

  117. rmack15

    Frank: LOL – who actually thought the Knicks would be “unstoppable” after the trade?

    Go back and read all the threads – the vast majority of us thought the offense would probably get a little better and the defense would get worse. And that’s pretty much what happened.Even the people in favor of the Melo trade were pretty sure it would make us worse in the short run.

    Re: him being a “cancer”. Not sure on what grounds you say that. Last I checked, Denver was in the playoffs every year in a stacked conference, and were in the WCF a couple years ago. So he hasn’t won a championship– LOTS of players haven’t, including LBJ, Durant, etc etc.

    I’ve found myself in the Melo-defender camp somehow only because we don’t know this guy from a hole in the ground and yet some people keep wanting to take personal potshots at him.He’s been depicted as selfish — why?Because he was contractually allowed to declare for free agency and, unlike Lebron, told Denver early enough that they could make contingency plans (thereby fleecing the Knicks).It’s easy for us to sit here and say “I would have taken less money to go to FA and play with a better team”, but it’s certainly not your $40M+ that’s on the line with that.

    Look man, obviously we fail to agree with eachother on Melo. All i can say im not getting my hopes up (even with a CP3 trade) until those changes I named earlier are made. I won’t change my mind about Melo and his immature attitude until I see otherwise from him either. He jacked up unnecessary 3s at the end of games in the playoffs even at a time in game 2 when amare was clearly feeling it. His half ass attempt at fouling Rondo at the end of game 3 also shows his poor attitude. Mark my words, as long as D’antoni is coach and the Knicks are #20 or worse defensively, there will be nothing but early exits in the playoffs every year. I hate to admit.

  118. Frank

    rmack15: Mark my words, as long as D’antoni is coach and the Knicks are #20 or worse defensively, there will be nothing but early exits in the playoffs every year. I hate to admit.

    Unfortunately I think we might agree on that.

  119. tenebrous

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: True Shooting Pct 2010-11

    1.Tyson Chandler-DAL.697
    2.Nene Hilario-DEN.656
    3.Arron Afflalo-DEN.620
    4.Paul Pierce-BOS.620
    5.Chauncey Billups-TOT.617
    6.Dwight Howard-ORL.616
    7.Ray Allen-BOS.615
    8.Richard Jefferson-SAS.612
    9.Dirk Nowitzki-DAL.612
    10.Kevin Martin-HOU.601

    See the gap between Chandler, Nene, and everyone else? Those kind of players are NOT easy to find.

    What?!??? Those are not shooters. They are next to the rim players. They are not even create hour own shot and sink it players. Are you ____ with us?

  120. tenebrous

    But we do need next to the rim players. Maybe subconciously or consciously you were leaning toward that.

  121. tenebrous

    In fact the last two season games that they withered and died was worse than the sweep. Na the sweep was worse.

  122. bobneptune

    need to move melo as he is incompatible with amar’e.

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3jwyyhy

    billups and evans in the back court with scoring forwards granger and amar’e up front. now only one hole (center), rather than 2 like we have now.

    also after the 2012 season when billups expires, since evans and granger will make 18m combined in 12-13, leaving the nix a full 18 m under today’s 58m cap leaving plenty of room for paul/williams/howard.

    talk about making a silk purse from a sow’s ear!!!

  123. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    tenebrous: What?!??? Those are not shooters. They are next to the rim players. They are not even create hour own shot and sink it players. Are you ____ with us?

    Why don’t more next-to-the-rim players post such a high TS%, then?

    What is a “create [your] own shot and sink it” player? Do you mean a player who takes a lot of shots?

    By the way, Nene averaged 10.5 FGA/36 and Bynum averaged 9.9. Yet would you call Bynum a player who can’t “create his own shot?” A shot is a shot. If you’re a player who grabs an offensive rebound and puts it back for an easy, high-success-rate 2PT, who cares?

    If you’re more interested in watching circus shots, the And1 league might more up your alley. I’m interested in watching winning basketball.

    (Shot creation is a myth.)

  124. bobneptune

    tenebrous:
    Melons not getting traded, neither is amare.

    yes…. who would ever break up a 5 games under .500 unit!!!

    just out of curiosity…. how exactly do they get better moving forward…. details plz….

  125. rmack15

    bobneptune: yes…. who would ever break up a 5 games under .500 unit!!!

    just out of curiosity…. how exactly do they get better moving forward…. details plz….

    Hahaha yea I don’t know why anyone would even think about breaking up such a dominant team with so much chemistry like the Knicks have!!

  126. latke

    jon abbey: they botched the 2009 draft as badly as anyone could have…

    Here are the top 3 most damaging decisions in the last decade by knicks management:

    1) Cablevision giving Dolan control over the Knicks: I know this was 1999, but we have to include it. Dolan’s “apparent” support for quick-fix moves that grab headlines, sacrificing the lottery picks that are the lifeblood of a rebuilding team has left the Knicks time and again toiling in mediocrity with little prospect for the future. If not for Stern interceding and forcing Walsh on Dolan, who knows where the Knicks would be.

    2) Eddy Curry sign and trade: Not only did this cost the Knicks two lottery picks, picks that became two of the best young bigs in the league in LaMarcus Aldridge and Joakim Noah, but it also cost the knicks IMMENSELY this past summer. If Curry had not been under contract, the knicks would have had an additional $11.2 million in cap space. That would have allowed them to A) pay off Houston to to take Jared Jeffries AND still have enough space to offer two max contracts. That means they could have signed, for example, Amare, Tyson Chandler, AND Raymond Felton. That is a VERY good team. Furthermore, the concerns about resigning young players would have been moot, since Bird Rights would have allowed us to pay whatever to Chandler and Gallo. We could have kept AR and played him in lower pressure situations, rather than being forced to move him at his absolute lowest value.

    3) 2009 draft: Holiday or Lawson would have made for great starting point guards in our system. We could have skipped Felton and signed a legit 2 guard who could spread the floor like Dorrell Wright or Wes Matthews. Maybe James would have come, maybe not (IMO he was set on partying with his superfriends)

  127. Frank

    @151 – Don’t forget about the McDyess trade, which was as damaging as anything else that has happened to us. Nene + Marcus Camby for a broken McDyess. Bad luck that McDyess got hurt, but it was such a gutshot to lose Camby, who was one of my favorite Knicks.

  128. hoolahoop

    rmack15: Honestly dude Melo is nothing but a cancer. He is a one sided player with a terrible attitude. How do you people not understand this?

    That’s the way I see it. I guess because he’s a great scorer most people think he’s a great player. The knicks will never be a real contender as long as he is here.
    Melo needs to go to an organization that has a stronger will than him and teach him how to play winning basketball, not winning sometimes basketball.

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