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Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Knicks Summer League Schedule 2013 And Roster

NEW YORK, July 8, 2013 – The New York Knickerbockers today announced the roster for the 2013 NBA Summer League, to be held in Las Vegas from Jul. 12-22. Rookie guard Tim Hardaway Jr., who was selected 24th in the 2013 NBA Draft, veteran guard/forward Iman Shumpert and rookie forward C.J. Leslie headline the 13-man roster.

New York will play a minimum of five games in the new tournament style format, with the first three games scheduled to be held at Cox Pavilion on the campus of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. The first game is scheduled for Friday, Jul. 12 against New Orleans at 1:00 p.m., Pacific Time. MSG Network will have live coverage for the seventh consecutive NBA Summer League.

In addition, the team is scheduled to hold four practices prior to the first game.

The team’s itinerary is as follows:

Practice Schedule
Tuesday, July 9 7:00 p.m. (Thomas & Mack Center)
Wednesday, July 10 11:00 a.m. (Thomas & Mack Center)
5:00 p.m. (Cox Pavilion Practice Court)
Thursday, July 11 1:00 p.m. (Cox Pavilion Practice Court)

Games at Cox Pavilion
Friday, July 12 vs. New Orleans 1:00 p.m.
Sunday, July 14 vs. Washington 1:00 p.m.
Monday, July 15 vs. Charlotte 1:00 p.m.
July 17-22 Tournament Play TBD

* – Times are Pacific Time zone
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2013 New York Knicks Summer League Roster

No Player Pos Ht Wt DOB EXP
4 J’Covan Brown G 6-1 197 Feb. 14, 1990 R
13 Justin Brownlee F 6-7 219 Apr. 23, 1988 R
5 Tim Hardaway Jr. G 6-6 205 Mar. 16, 1992 R
45 Terrence Jennings F 6-10 230 Nov. 2, 1988 R
44 Jerome Jordan C 7-0 253 Sep. 29, 1986 1
25 C.J. Leslie F 6-9 200 Jun. 25, 1991 R
40 A.J. Matthews C 7-0 215 Jun. 30, 1989 R
18 Tony Mitchell F 6-6 216 Aug. 7, 1989 R
17 Toure Murry G 6-5 199 Nov. 8, 1989 R
21 Iman Shumpert G 6-5 220 Jun. 26, 1990 2
32 Chris Smith G 6-2 195 Oct. 13, 1987 R
30 Jeremy Tyler F 6-10 260 Jun. 12, 1991 2
35 Eloy Vargas F 6-11 244 Dec. 30, 1988 R

Head Coach: Mike Woodson (Indiana)
Assistant Coaches: Jim Todd (Fitchburg State)
Darrell Walker (Arkansas)
Herb Williams (Ohio State)
Head Athletic Trainer: Roger Hinds (Brooklyn College)
Associate Athletic Trainer: Anthony Goenaga (Long Island University)

91 comments on “Knicks Summer League Schedule 2013 And Roster

  1. Vinny L.

    First thought: Why are they risking Shump getting hurt?

    Second thought: Chris Smith? WTF!

  2. Z-man

    Tyler should be interesting to watch in summer league. Another second round caliber guy available to sign. This has the makings of a really good SL team!

    I wonder if any of the vets will be around to cheer on the summer league team.

  3. Brian Cronin

    The thing that kills me about Dwight Howard is that he is just so ignorant about his own performance. He hated playing in D’Antoni’s system, even though it plainly helped him when Howard eventually actually committed to it late in the season. In their meeting with him, the Lakers showed him figures from his time in Orlando that showed how well he did in the pick and roll, which was one of the reasons that the Lakers hired D’Antoni (as they had those numbers before last season). They showed how he was getting the ball in the post just like he asked for, it was just part of the pick and roll. Howard’s response was something along the lines of, “I don’t care what the numbers say, it didn’t feel right to me.” I mean, don’t get me wrong, if you’re not happy you’re not happy you’re not happy, so if he wants to leave because he’s not happy, fair enough. But I just take issue with his claim that his decision was based on objective stuff like offenses when it seems clear to me that the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, offense-wise.

  4. nicos

    Brian Cronin:
    The thing that kills me about Dwight Howard is that he is just so ignorant about his own performance. He hated playing in D’Antoni’s system, even though it plainly helped him when Howard eventually actually committed to it late in the season. In their meeting with him, the Lakers showed him figures from his time in Orlando that showed how well he did in the pick and roll, which was one of the reasons that the Lakers hired D’Antoni (as they had those numbers before last season). They showed how he was getting the ball in the post just like he asked for, it was just part of the pick and roll. Howard’s response was something along the lines of, “I don’t care what the numbers say, it didn’t feel right to me.” I mean, don’t get me wrong, if you’re not happy you’re not happy you’re not happy, so if he wants to leave because he’s not happy, fair enough. But I just take issue with his claim that his decision was based on objective stuff like offenses when it seems clear to me that the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, offense-wise.

    It was D’A and Melo redux though in fairness to Melo I think he would have been fine with it if he hadn’t been struggling so much with his shot. You’d think a Howard/Harden pnr would be unstoppable but it’s pretty clear Howard has no interest in those high screen sets out by the three point line that D’A loves and Harden thrives on. It’ll be interesting to see how things work out next year.

  5. nicos

    Vinny L.:
    First thought: Why are they risking Shump getting hurt?

    If he wasn’t there he’d almost certainly be playing 5 on 5 as part of his normal summer training. This way he can work on exactly what the coaches want him to work on- for a guy who’s never even really had a training camp let alone played in the summer league it’s a great opportunity for him to work on his game- he needs a ton of work finishing inside, running pnrs, etc… so this should be a great opportunity for him. Also, it could hopefully pay dividends with some of the guys with effort issues like Leslie and Tyler- I have no doubt that Shump will be in everyone’s ear (esp. on the defensive end) and should set a really good example which is important when you have to think at least 3 of these guys (Hardaway, Leslie, and one of the bigs) stand a good chance of making the final roster.

  6. jon abbey

    Ron Artest is being amnestied, maybe we can bring him in as the SF at a vet minimum since he’s already being paid?

    him and JR would be the most hilarious teammates ever, too bad Sheed didn’t take the job as the NY assistant coach… :)

  7. Z

    Fitchburg State is known for it’s coaching program, and LIU has developed many great assistant trainers over the years. But no one knows anything about any of the programs any of the players may have attended, so I’m glad that was left off the roster. (It’s not like any of these guys dropped out of highschool to play pro ball in Israel, or anything interesting like that…)

  8. Brian Cronin

    While yes, the JR/Artest combo possibilities are scary, Artest is also still an amazing defender, so I’d love to see him on the Knicks.

  9. Z

    jon abbey: [Artest] and JR would be the most hilarious teammates ever, too bad Sheed didn’t take the job as the NY assistant coach… :)

    Since we have already committed to more JR Smith, I would love this! It’s such a bad idea, it goes all the way around to being a good idea. (Make it happen, Glen!)

  10. BigBlueAL

    MWP to the Knicks would definitely at the very least make this one interesting team to watch next season lol.

  11. alsep73

    Beyond Shump and Hardaway, guys I’m interested in are Leslie (whom the team liked enough to guarantee a contract through Jan. 7), Murry (we need a third string PG, and he apparently played well in the D-league), “the other” Tony Mitchell, Jerome Jordan (I liked what he did in incredibly limited minutes the last time he was here, and we need at least one backup center) and Jeremy Tyler (who may have used up his chances or may be our latest brilliant scrap-heap pick-up named Jeremy).

  12. Hubert

    I love the idea of adding Artest for vets min, but is the extra stuff he brings to the table worth it for a 10th man? I don’t know that it is.

  13. Loathing

    So waitaminnit….the Lakes cut loose a guy making 8 mil while keeping an injured for the next year player who makes 30 mill BEFORE the luxury taxes?

    Ladies n’ gentlemen, Mr. Mitch Kupchak.

  14. TDM

    Like seeing Jordan and Tyler on the summer squad. Tyler took a non-conventional path to the NBA. Didn’t really get burn for GSW. Hopefully he’s a late bloomer. He can fill the paint for us at 260.

    Is Tony Mitchell the North Texas guy?

  15. Unreason

    Coincidental that all 3 former aau team mates – Brand, Artest, and Odom – are available at the same time.

  16. Hubert

    What about Chauncey for the vet’s min? Reading the Clips can’t sign him because they’re facing the hard cap after using the full MLE. Wouldn’t mind him as the 5th guard.

  17. Unreason

    Hubert:
    What about Chauncey for the vet’s min?Reading the Clips can’t sign him because they’re facing the hard cap after using the full MLE. Wouldn’t mind him as the 5th guard.

    Of the obtainable pgs I’d definitely take him. Not sure he’d come though. He was clearly pissed and hurt when the Knicks cut him.

  18. Unreason

    TDM:
    Lakers picked up Kaman on a 1 yr deal for the mini MLE.

    It’s The Lake Show! Staring…. Steve Nash!…. Pau Gasol!…. Chris Kaman!… Wink Martendale!… Soupy Sales!…. and a hilarious cast of other decrepit Caucasians!

    Warms my heart it does.

  19. Frank

    Artest for the vets minimum is a complete no-brainer. I wonder who is still under the cap and whether any of those teams would want him around. I think there’s a 100% chance he signs with us if he makes it through waivers. We’ve been talking about Francisco Garcia, Delfino etc- but even at this age Ron Ron is far superior if only just on the defensive end. And he’s still a new league average 3 point shooter and underrated passer. He would bring a toughness to that second unit that can’t be understated. And a crazy too. Would be a big test for Woody.

  20. alsep73

    TDM:

    Is Tony Mitchell the North Texas guy?

    No, he’s the Alabama guy, also played well in the D-League last year.

    http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/tony_mitchell/

    Here are some of the other notable NBDL profiles:

    http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/tmp_toure_murry/

    http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/jerome_jordan/

    http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/jeremy_tyler/

    Keep in mind that after Shump, Hardaway and Leslie, the guy on the summer league roster most likely to make it to training camp (if not further) is JR Smith’s brother. With this ridiculous team of ours, you have to take the stupid with the smart…

  21. flossy

    Ron Artest on the Knicks would 100% make up for bringing in Andrea “Summer’s Eve” Bargnani. I want this to happen so badly that I’m sure it’s impossible.

  22. Juany8

    Frank:
    Artest for the vets minimum is a complete no-brainer. I wonder who is still under the cap and whether any of those teams would want him around. I think there’s a 100% chance he signs with us if he makes it through waivers. We’ve been talking about Francisco Garcia, Delfino etc- but even at this age Ron Ron is far superior if only just on the defensive end. And he’s still a new league average 3 point shooter and underrated passer.He would bring a toughness to that second unit that can’t be understated. And a crazy too. Would be a big test for Woody.

    I don’t know that you should be bringing up his 3 point shooting numbers considering teams were often begging him to shoot, but Artest can be a nice backup, even as a small ball 4 if injuries strike down Bargs and Stoudemire. Stiemsma is a pretty solid backup too, like a bigger version of Jeffries. Both should be on the Knick’s radar at this point

  23. DRed

    “It was on the Fourth of July,” Howard said. “That’s when I felt it was Houston. I was in Colorado. It seemed like every person that I met was from Houston. It was just so ironic. I’d walk around. Someone would ask for a picture. They’d give me a business card and it would say Houston on it. I was like, ‘Is everybody in Colorado from Houston right now?’ It was unbelievable. … I was like, ‘You know what, this has to be from God.’ You pray for things to happen. You pray for signs, for God to show you things. It just seemed like, this was it.”

  24. bockadoo

    Not sure if there are enough minutes to keep MWP happy and we wouldn’t want an unhappy MWP… Shoulda been a Knick ever since taking Frederik Weis instead.

  25. johnno

    Juany8: Stiemsma is a pretty solid backup too, like a bigger version of Jeffries

    I think that I read somewhere that Tyler Hansborough is available. I hate that guy, but I would learn to get over that quickly if the Knicks picked him up…until he inevitably elbows one of his teammates in the face in practice and smashes his nose.

  26. Brian Cronin

    “It was on the Fourth of July,” Howard said. “That’s when I felt it was Houston. I was in Colorado. It seemed like every person that I met was from Houston. It was just so ironic. I’d walk around. Someone would ask for a picture. They’d give me a business card and it would say Houston on it. I was like, ‘Is everybody in Colorado from Houston right now?’ It was unbelievable. … I was like, ‘You know what, this has to be from God.’ You pray for things to happen. You pray for signs, for God to show you things. It just seemed like, this was it.”

    Exactly. The guy is such a moron.

  27. Hubert

    Artest is still certifiably insane, it’s not a complete no brainer. The stories the Rockets leaked about him from when he was on Houston were crazy. He can sabotage a season in sudden onvious ways or do it subtly over time. The last time one of my teams had a ticking time bomb, Plaxico blew up an 11-1 Giants team.

    He’s obviously better than any alternative are you sure he’s worth the risk with his current skills?

  28. Unreason

    Frank: Artest for the vets minimum is a complete no-brainer.

    Not for me thanks. I love tough guys who make clean hard fouls and I think the Knicks really need a couple, but I want no part of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scqitXx-bkE
    I do not find that or the many similar batshit crazy moments he’s had charmingly eccentric. The guy’s just an a-hole IMO. Though I’m sure he won’t, I think he deserves to go unsigned.

  29. nicos

    I think I’d prefer Stiemsma to Artest. Artest is still a very solid defender if no longer an all-nba guy but teams don’t even bother to guard him anymore. And he doesn’t rebound at all. If he were willing to really embrace playing 10-15 minutes a night, I’d say go for it but my guess is he’d be a lot more trouble than he’s worth if he wasn’t getting heavy minutes.

  30. Unreason

    Hubert: Artest is still certifiably insane, it’s not a complete no brainer. The stories the Rockets leaked about him from when he was on Houston were crazy. He can sabotage a season in sudden onvious ways or do it subtly over time. The last time one of my teams had a ticking time bomb, Plaxico blew up an 11-1 Giants team.

    He’s obviously better than any alternative are you sure he’s worth the risk with his current skills?

    Couldn’t agree more. Except even if he were closer to his elite D days rather than the average defender he is now, I still wouldn’t want him. He’s also the very last guy in the league that JR needs to have around.

  31. Juany8

    Brian Cronin:
    But I just take issue with his claim that his decision was based on objective stuff like offenses when it seems clear to me that the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, offense-wise.

    I think the difference is that a pick and roll is not really a play call for him specifically. Sure he’s involved in the main action, but it’s the ball handler that’s really driving everything and making the decisions. I doubt even Howard wants to be posting up all the time, so when it’s pick and rolls and post ups mixed up, he gets to be effective and he gets to take control of the offense himself, making everyone happy. D’Antoni wanted to run pick and rolls all the time and then make post ups a side part of the offense. In that kind of offense, no matter who is actually taking the shots, the ball handler dominates.

    Same thing happened with Melo, he’s actually playing off the ball in the pick and roll a lot and lowered his isolations since Woodson came in, but Woodson also designs specific plays and actions around Melo just getting the ball and going to work in the post. D’Antoni grudgingly let him and Howard post up and do their thing, but didn’t really design the offense to work off those skills. Those guy are correct in assuming that they are good options as a post up option, so when the coach wants to make them play the roll man/spot up beyond the arc almost exclusively, it’s going to be a turnoff.

    Simply put, to NBA players, taking 10 shots that someone set you up for and getting 10 shots you set yourself up for are different things. Maybe it’s inefficient or dumb, but it’s the truth, and I do agree with Howard that he should get plenty of time to post up and start the offense himself. Design an offense that does both things and you’ll be harder to defend while keeping your players happy. Only D’Antoni doesn’t see that

  32. johnno

    Hubert: Artest is still certifiably insane,

    I actually admire Artest for recognizing that he is insane and I admire the work that he has done and the millions of dollars that he has donated to help provide troubled teenagers with mental health help. Having said that, I feel like he is always on the verge of a meltdown and I wouldn’t be crazy about having him on my team.

  33. Juany8

    Brian Cronin: Exactly. The guy is such a moron.

    Well Melo eventually learned to deal with the press so I’m holding out some hope that Dwight learns to just shut the fuck up and play properly. Damn it I never really liked Dwight (except for the one year he took out Lebron in the playoffs haha!) and there’s a chance he might not even be that good. If the Rockets get the same Dwight that played for the Lakers last year, that is not a big improvement over Omer Asik at center.

  34. ess-dog

    DRed:
    “It was on the Fourth of July,” Howard said. “That’s when I felt it was Houston. I was in Colorado. It seemed like every person that I met was from Houston. It was just so ironic. I’d walk around. Someone would ask for a picture. They’d give me a business card and it would say Houston on it. I was like, ‘Is everybody in Colorado from Houston right now?’ It was unbelievable. … I was like, ‘You know what, this has to be from God.’ You pray for things to happen. You pray for signs, for God to show you things. It just seemed like, this was it.”

    That Lord shit is going to play really well in Houston. I bet his back goes out somewhere between game 3 and game 10.

  35. Juany8

    johnno: I actually admire Artest for recognizing that he is insane and I admire the work that he has done and the millions of dollars that he has donated to help provide troubled teenagers with mental health help.Having said that, I feel like he is always on the verge of a meltdown and I wouldn’t be crazy about having him on my team.

    Having been through both Ron Artest and Royce White on the Rockets, I can attest to the fact that players with mental health issues are almost too unpredictable to be worth it. He hasn’t been particularly good these past couple of years, and I worry about the cumulative effect of losing all the veterans and picking up more volatile personalities. I fucking love the guy too, his one year in Houston was one of my favorite sport seasons of all time, I know people act like it’s horrible to lose in the second round, but after years of losing in the first over and over, I can honestly say that watching the Rockets beat the Blazers in 2009 and the subsequent series with the Lakers were the most fun I ever had as a sports fan.

  36. Brian Cronin

    Well Melo eventually learned to deal with the press so I’m holding out some hope that Dwight learns to just shut the fuck up and play properly. Damn it I never really liked Dwight (except for the one year he took out Lebron in the playoffs haha!) and there’s a chance he might not even be that good. If the Rockets get the same Dwight that played for the Lakers last year, that is not a big improvement over Omer Asik at center.

    That is definitely the worry for the Rockets. Presumably that is why they’re not moving Asik yet (that, and I presume they figure the longer they hold on to Asik, the more other teams will pay them for him). But I think they’ll be fine. I think Howard is a great player, I just don’t like his off-the-court stuff. On the court, if healthy, he’s amazing. And even not healthy, the Rockets at least know he’ll get different (i.e. better) coverage than Asik, so he’ll be good for them. Have the Rockets re-signed Garcia yet?

  37. Unreason

    johnno: I actually admire Artest for recognizing that he is insane and I admire the work that he has done and the millions of dollars that he has donated to help provide troubled teenagers with mental health help.Having said that, I feel like he is always on the verge of a meltdown and I wouldn’t be crazy about having him on my team.

    It’s good work. If he hadn’t been forced into that work to save his career and repair his reputation, and if he seemed more mentally ill than just ill-tempered and belligerent, I’d feel differently. Anybody who often beats the crap out of other people has “anger management issues” by definition. Calling that a “mental illness” doesn’t add any new information that helps explain or excuse his choices.

  38. nicos

    Juany8: I think the difference is that a pick and roll is not really a play call for him specifically. Sure he’s involved in the main action, but it’s the ball handler that’s really driving everything and making the decisions. I doubt even Howard wants to be posting up all the time, so when it’s pick and rolls and post ups mixed up, he gets to be effective and he gets to take control of the offense himself, making everyone happy. D’Antoni wanted to run pick and rolls all the time and then make post ups a side part of the offense.

    But in D’A’s offense a lot (or at least some) of those high screen and rolls wind up as post ups, there’s just a lot more movement involved. If he plays anything like he did last year get used to DH slumping his shoulders and reluctantly making his way out to Harden at the three point line to set a screen and then rolling as half-heartedly as guy with his gifts possibly can (minus the obligatory shot of D’A grimacing on sidelines).

  39. Unreason

    Juany8: If the Rockets get the same Dwight that played for the Lakers last year, that is not a big improvement over Omer Asik at center.

    Really? You know Asik way better than I do, but that seems pretty far off to me. I think he might approach Howard on defense and rebounding, but the screen and roll game with Harden and Howard will be worlds apart from what they could do with Asik, won’t it? Howard’s offensive game isn’t pretty to say the least, but with a good screen and roll partner – and Harden’s great – Howard’s extremely effective. By the end of the season Howard looked well on his way back. Unless he reinjures himself, I think they’ll be as good as anybody in the West.

  40. JK47

    Maybe it’s the 90′s Knicks fan in me, but I would love to have Artest on the team. He may not be the player he was in his prime, but he’s still a versatile defender who plays with some real toughness. The Knicks are a bit of a finesse team; bring in MWP and bring back K-Mart and you have the makings of a defensive team that is… well, unpleasant to face. Laker fans are not happy to see him go.

    He’s also durable and stays in great shape. I think he’d be pretty motivated to do well here.

  41. Brian Cronin

    So waitaminnit….the Lakes cut loose a guy making 8 mil while keeping an injured for the next year player who makes 30 mill BEFORE the luxury taxes?

    Ladies n’ gentlemen, Mr. Mitch Kupchak.

    The Lakers are likely not going to be all that great this year, so paying $30 million in luxury tax because of a guy they’re not planning on using after this year doesn’t make sense. They can’t very well cut Kobe when they plan on building around him in 2014.

  42. Brian Cronin

    I think the difference is that a pick and roll is not really a play call for him specifically. Sure he’s involved in the main action, but it’s the ball handler that’s really driving everything and making the decisions. I doubt even Howard wants to be posting up all the time, so when it’s pick and rolls and post ups mixed up, he gets to be effective and he gets to take control of the offense himself, making everyone happy. D’Antoni wanted to run pick and rolls all the time and then make post ups a side part of the offense.

    As Nicos noted, I think Howard is just blocking out how often he ended up with post-ups because of his general disinterest in playing D’Antoni’s style. And really, I don’t even care if he just hates it so much that he doesn’t want to play it, that’s fine with me. I just don’t like how he keeps…I don’t want to say “lying” because I don’t think it is intentional but…uhm…”misleading,” perhaps? Misleading people (including himself) about his role in D’Antoni’s offense.

  43. danvt

    Vinny L.: First thought: Why are they risking Shump getting hurt?

    I agree with Vinny! Remember when Gallo got hurt trying to guard Tractor Traylor. It cost him about a half season. I can’t imagine he’ll play much.

  44. yellowboy90

    On another board someone brought the idea of Melo opting out in 14 for the Knicks to sign him to a 1 yr 30 million dollar deal then have him come back in 15 to take a sweetheart deal starting around 15-16 million once Amar’e and Chandler come off the books. Is that possible?

    Also, wouldn’t that create a huge cap hold or could he sign an extension early for less money?

  45. danvt

    BigBlueAL: MWP to the Knicks would definitely at the very least make this one interesting team to watch next season lol.

    Maybe he’s finally mature enough to handle NYC. I think he’d love to be a Knick and I’d like to see it.

  46. Unreason

    nicos: If he plays anything like he did last year get used to DH slumping his shoulders and reluctantly making his way out to Harden at the three point line to set a screen and then rolling as half-heartedly as guy with his gifts possibly can (minus the obligatory shot of D’A grimacing on sidelines).

    To me that is what makes him permanently unlikable. I don’t expect it from him in Houston though. He sulks to get his way. Now that he’s got what he wants I expect him to go all out. Long term, his and Harden’s personalities seem pretty well matched. I don’t expect them to clash the way he and Kobe did.

  47. Juany8

    Unreason: Really? You know Asik way better than I do, but that seems pretty far off to me. I think he might approach Howard on defense and rebounding, but the screen and roll game with Harden and Howard will be worlds apart from what they could do with Asik, won’t it? Howard’s offensive game isn’t pretty to say the least, but with a good screen and roll partner – and Harden’s great – Howard’s extremely effective. By the end of the season Howard looked well on his way back. Unless he reinjures himself, I think they’ll be as good as anybody in the West.

    Problem is asik set absolute monster screens all last season whereas Dwight got a lot of shit for failing to do just that. Screening is generally underrated since most players set similar screens, but asik is one of the few guys who is legit special at it because of his size and skill. By the end of the season Dwight had made some strides, although he was absolutely embarrassing in the playoffs. It would be an upgrade, but not a major one, certainly not compared the the attention it’s getting.

    Of course if he goes back to playing like he did with the magic, that’s a size able upgrade, especially since harden is fantastic playing off the ball. But I want to see it happen before getting too excited

  48. Juany8

    nicos: But in D’A’s offense a lot (or at least some) of those high screen and rolls wind up as post ups, there’s just a lot more movement involved.If he plays anything like he did last year get used to DH slumping his shoulders and reluctantly making his way out to Harden at the three point line to set a screen and then rolling as half-heartedly as guy with his gifts possibly can (minus the obligatory shot of D’A grimacing on sidelines).

    You and Brian are right nicos, but I think we can agree that from a player’s perspective, there’s a difference between a called pick and roll that ends up as a post play than a straight called post play. Essentially, you’re not having to hope the guard running the pick and roll initially passes you the ball in a good spot to set up, I can imagine it would be somewhat frustrating to set a pick, get good post position off the roll, and then having the guard reset the offense because he couldn’t find a quick passing lane. Of course he you would hope he puts his team’s success before his own touches, but when the team is NOT succeeding, it becomes more of a tense situation.

    I’m gonna call it right now, even though Houston was entirely a pick and roll team last year and that is what harden is famous for, I bet they’re going to center a lot more of the offense around straight post play. McHale has some warts, but he’s been pretty adaptible in Houston so far

  49. nicos

    Juany8: You and Brian are right nicos, but I think we can agree that from a player’s perspective, there’s a difference between a called pick and roll that ends up as a post play than a straight called post play. Essentially, you’re not having to hope the guard running the pick and roll initially passes you the ball in a good spot to set up, I can imagine it would be somewhat frustrating to set a pick, get good post position off the roll, and then having the guard reset the offense because he couldn’t find a quick passing lane. Of course he you would hope he puts his team’s success before his own touches, but when the team is NOT succeeding, it becomes more of a tense

    Agreed but I thought Dwight DID get a fair amount of post touches last year- not as much as in Orlando but it’s not like he was ignored- and still dragged his feet setting screens out on the perimeter. Also, Harden has had the benefit of great, mobile screeners- Asik as you mentioned and both Collison and Perkins. Collison was particularly good at getting into screening position when Harden caught the ball out of rotations. If Dwight is as lazy as he was last year setting high screens Harden might have his work cut out him.

  50. massive

    Frank Isola ?@FisolaNYDN

    “Mike Woodson is trying to convince Chauncey Billups to rejoin Knicks, according to sources. Billups, though, unlikely to accept minimum deal.”

    I would love to play Billups in the Kidd role next season. Why can we only offer him the minimum when we still have part of the taxpayer’s exception left?

  51. Brian Cronin

    How in the world does Billups think he’s worth more than the vet minimum? I would imagine that the Knicks want to hold their remaining money from the mini-MLE for a big, massive.

  52. JK47

    Chauncey Billups is gonna be 37 and he’s played 20 and 22 games the last two seasons. How about a guy who can actually get on the floor and play?

  53. Brian Cronin

    If Bell is healthy, I’d be cool with him. I find it hard to believe he is healthy, though.

  54. GHenman

    Did we learn nothing from last year? You can’t sign a bunch of past their prime guys and expect them to stay healthy and perform well all year. We need to be lookinng for the next Copeland or Lin or Mason or Starks… but that will never happen unless we put them on the roster.

  55. jon abbey

    GHenman:
    Did we learn nothing from last year?You can’t sign a bunch of past their prime guys and expect them to stay healthy and perform well all year.We need to be lookinng for the next Copeland or Lin or Mason or Starks… but that will never happen unless we put them on the roster.

    we have so many open roster spots, we have room for young guys and old guys.

    in other news, wow is Marc Berman making himself look dumb on Twitter tonight.

  56. Brian Cronin

    in other news, wow is Marc Berman making himself look dumb on Twitter tonight.

    What in particular irked you? I thought he had a really good bit of info with regards to Prigs, that the Knicks tried to get him to take a 2-year deal last year but he passed, hoping for the raise he ended up getting this year (I guess Prigs was confident in his ability).

  57. BigBlueAL

    I agree with Berman on the point that it is ridiculous that the Knicks cant keep both of their rookies because other teams can outbid them. I dont feel pity for the Knicks not being able to sign other FA’s, thats their fault for their current cap situation. But the whole point of the lockout was to give teams better chances of keeping their own FA’s yet teams can easily get outbid for their own FA’s if they havent had them on their roster for at least 3 seasons. Pretty ridiculous. Especially in the case of Prigs and Cope who were basically found by the Knicks. They dont get rewarded for great scouting and under-the-radar signings.

  58. Brian Cronin

    Well, while Prigs wouldn’t accept a two-year deal, Cope surely would have, so there’s something to be said for the Knicks getting hurt a bit by their own mistake of not signing Cope to a second year. Not even a non-guaranteed second year. Was Cope really going to turn that down? Prigs at least was coming off of a prominent showing in the Olympics. What reason did Cope have to believe he’d be making big money this offseason? Halfway through the season he wasn’t even playing!

  59. massive

    I don’t think the NBA necessarily cares about a team’s ability to retain its free agents. I think what they want above all else is a more competitive league. The Western Conference put a different team in the NBA Finals four years in a row. That’s what you want; unpredictability. If taking talent off of a really talented team helps make the league more competitive, that’s what the league will keep as it would make them more money.

    If it’s unfair to a team but better for the league, the league will not change the rules.

  60. jon abbey

    this one:

    ‘It’s 1 thing to get outbid for stars in new CBA. That’s expected in salary-cap world. But to get hammered for the Garcias, Bynums, Delfinos?”

    NY spent all their money in previous seasons, knowing they’d have virtually no flexibility for the next few years. they couldn’t keep both Copeland and Prigioni because they spent too damn much already, not because of the CBA. honestly, they’re lucky they could keep JR. and they’re really lucky it’s not a hard cap, because Melo/Amar’e/Chandler by themselves make more than the cap.

    but more than all that, a reporter covering a team whining like that about losing FAs really looks unprofessional.

  61. Brian Cronin

    this one:

    ‘It’s 1 thing to get outbid for stars in new CBA. That’s expected in salary-cap world. But to get hammered for the Garcias, Bynums, Delfinos?”

    NY spent all their money in previous seasons, knowing they’d have virtually no flexibility for the next few years. they couldn’t keep both Copeland and Prigioni because they spent too damn much already, not because of the CBA. honestly, they’re lucky they could keep JR. and they’re really lucky it’s not a hard cap, because Melo/Amar’e/Chandler by themselves make more than the cap.

    but more than all that, a reporter covering a team whining like that about losing FAs really looks unprofessional.

    Oh yeah, agreed. He definitely seemed like a Knick apologist there, which was really weird.

  62. Brian Cronin

    I don’t think the NBA necessarily cares about a team’s ability to retain its free agents. I think what they want above all else is a more competitive league. The Western Conference put a different team in the NBA Finals four years in a row. That’s what you want; unpredictability. If taking talent off of a really talented team helps make the league more competitive, that’s what the league will keep as it would make them more money.

    If it’s unfair to a team but better for the league, the league will not change the rules.

    I think the league only cares about every team making money. Beyond that, I think they’re fine with the big market teams being better than everyone, as what drives ratings the most is super teams like the Heat, the Lakers, etc.

  63. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin: Oh yeah, agreed. He definitely seemed like a Knick apologist there, which was really weird.

    he’s had a lot of inside info first the last few weeks (he was the first to mention NY’s interest in Brand, for instance), so this is probably connected to that.

  64. Vinny L.

    Well I guess I’m banned for truth telling. They over-rated Prig now the Knicks can’t get any free agents. I get banned because I don’t like Prig?

  65. ruruland

    You know who had the highest +/- on Lakers last year? Artest.

    You know that Artest has a higher career +/- than Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, and is a just a few ticks behind Steve Nash?

    Artest has been a +6 net rating or higher nine of the last 10 years; pretty remarkable for a guy with a .086 career WS/48.

    Any combination of Artest, Raja Bell, Kenyon Martin and Elton Brand would be great.

    Get one, and even the skeptics can at least live with the off-season (Considering Prigs’ return). Get two, and it’s a good off-season by anyone’s standards. Get three. …….

    You have to imagine Artest would want to come home, but I’m pretty sure he’ll be able to go to whatever team he wants.

  66. Vinny L.

    LOL! The Faux News Post scribes are making up excuses for the Knicks getting outbid because they wasted their MLE on Prig:

    Tweets:

    New CBA unfair in it didn’t allow #Knicks to keep their diamond-in-rough rookie finds in Prigioni-Copeland and sign a middle-class FA.

    It’s 1 thing to get outbid for stars in new CBA. That’s expected in salary-cap world. But to get hammered for the Garcias, Bynums, Delfinos?

    #Knicks also in this summer bind because PG they gave MLE too last summer broke contract to work for direct competitor. That’s fact.

  67. Brian Cronin

    he’s had a lot of inside info first the last few weeks (he was the first to mention NY’s interest in Brand, for instance), so this is probably connected to that.

    That’s really a shame. You hate to see guys go like that. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I get it (better access gets you exclusives, better content, etc.), I just don’t like it.

  68. Z

    Vinny L.:
    LOL! The Faux News Post scribes are making up excuses for the Knicks getting outbid because they wasted their MLE on Prig:

    I thought you said you’d been banned.

  69. flossy

    Ron Artest > Elton Brand > Kenyon Martin >>> Raja Bell (and Chauncey Billups, for that matter).

    But seriously, I think the time is ripe for MWP to come home and I’d welcome him with open arms. He’s 34, sure he’s lost a step but he’s not ancient and I really think he’d bring it in a Knicks uniform. And hell, at this point I’d rather Artest be shooting open 3s than Bargnani until the latter proves he has a pulse, and I think a 134 year-old Ron Artest would still outplay Bargnani on the defensive end.

    If we land Artest (which still seems too good to be true, but I want to believe), re-up K-Mart, pick up at least one more random tall person as K-Mart insurance, and add a guard (I’d rather someone like Aaron Brooks than Bell), I think that would redeem what has so far been a pretty mediocre offseason as best.

  70. flossy

    Shumpert, Artest and Chandler would be an excellent defensive core to feature in a line up with Melo and Felton or Prigioni. If Shumpert can stay in the high 30s spotting up from 3 and MWP at least in the mid-30s, that 5 could be pretty tough…

  71. ruruland

    flossy:
    Shumpert, Artest and Chandler would be an excellent defensive core to feature in a line up with Melo and Felton or Prigioni.If Shumpert can stay in the high 30s spotting up from 3 and MWP at least in the mid-30s, that 5 could be pretty tough…

    How much fun would a Prigs/Shump/Artest/Martin/Chandler lineup be for 5-10 minutes?

  72. jon abbey

    what are the rules on amnesty claims, though? thankfully he’s batshit crazy so maybe no one would claim him, but there’s a chance he never gets to free agency, right?

  73. Brian Cronin

    Any team under the cap that is interested in signing Artest is allowed to send in a silent bid to the NBA saying how much they’d be willing to sign him for. The highest bid gets him. If no one sends in a bid, then he becomes a free agent and anyone can sign him. My guess is that he’ll make it through to free agency.

  74. Vinny L.

    Why does everyone believe we’ll have K-Mart next year? What if he bolts to the Nets? We don’t have money now

  75. Brian Cronin

    The Nets have less money to offer K-Mart than the Knicks do. The Nets used up nearly all of their mini-MLE to sign Bojan Bogdanovic. But anyhow, K-Mart is almost assuredly signing for the vet minimum. And if he does sign for the vet minimum, why would he prefer the Nets to the Knicks if the money is the same? The Knicks have more playing time to offer and are very likely a better team than the Nets.

  76. Z-man

    Brian Cronin:
    Well, while Prigs wouldn’t accept a two-year deal, Cope surely would have, so there’s something to be said for the Knicks getting hurt a bit by their own mistake of not signing Cope to a second year. Not even a non-guaranteed second year. Was Cope really going to turn that down? Prigs at least was coming off of a prominent showing in the Olympics. What reason did Cope have to believe he’d be making big money this offseason? Halfway through the season he wasn’t even playing!

    I kinda get the 1-yr thing, 2 yrs sounds good when the player pans out, but these guys are total crap shoots and tying money up in them even for the extra year is risky. That said, GG is pretty good at finding guys that pan out, so maybe he needs more faith in himself.

  77. Z-man

    Vinny L.:
    Well I guess I’m banned for truth telling. They over-rated Prig now the Knicks can’t get any free agents. I get banned because I don’t like Prig?

    I would miss your intelligent discourse. In fact, I’ve missed it since you started posting.

  78. Brian Cronin

    I kinda get the 1-yr thing, 2 yrs sounds good when the player pans out, but these guys are total crap shoots and tying money up in them even for the extra year is risky. That said, GG is pretty good at finding guys that pan out, so maybe he needs more faith in himself.

    But what’s the harm in a second year if the second year is a team option? Don’t you think Cope would have accepted that if given to him?

    But yeah, fair enough, don’t get me wrong, I get that it is very much 20/20 hindsight. I guess it comes down to how much faith Grunwald had in him at the start of the year. If he felt he was a guy that he might want to cut during the season, then yeah, the second year was never a legitimate choice (as the second year option automatically vests if you cut a guy). If he figured that Cope was going to make it through the year no matter what, though, then he should have gotten the second year option. I tend to think that the latter was the case, but obviously I don’t know what Grunwald was thinking for sure. Not to mention that if STAT and then Sheed didn’t get hurt, we might never know that Cope was any good. So yeah, I certainly don’t mean to knock Grunwakd’s decision making here too much.

  79. Z-man

    I heard Cope interviewed yesterday on ESPN radio, sounds like he couldn’t be a nicer, more humble guy. Also sounded like he really, truly was very disappointed not to come back. Definitely a high-character guy.

    On another front, Raja Bell is an interesting development, I’m down with him for the vet’s min.

    Not so sure about Billups, he seems like a guy on the same cliff’s edge as Kidd fell off last year.

  80. Juany8

    nicos: Agreed but I thought Dwight DID get a fair amount of post touches last year- not as much as in Orlando but it’s not like he was ignored- and still dragged his feet setting screens out on the perimeter. Also, Harden has had the benefit of great, mobile screeners- Asik as you mentioned and both Collison and Perkins.Collison was particularly good at getting into screening position when Harden caught the ball out of rotations.If Dwight is as lazy as he was last year setting high screens Harden might have his work cut out him.

    Agreed 100%, asik was an underrated part of Hayden’s pick and roll attack, he would habitually pancake defenders, giving Harden a gulf of room to work with.

  81. Frank

    Brian Cronin:
    Any team under the cap that is interested in signing Artest is allowed to send in a silent bid to the NBA saying how much they’d be willing to sign him for. The highest bid gets him. If no one sends in a bid, then he becomes a free agent and anyone can sign him. My guess is that he’ll make it through to free agency.

    One can only hope. But there are some teams with cap room that have actual designs on making the playoffs – like Cleveland, Dallas, etc. and also teams that have to reach the salary floor. I doubt teams that are truly rebuilding, like the Atlantas and Utahs of the world, would take a shot at him given his mental baggage. But I can totally see Cuban doing it.

    I would be 100000000% for an Artest signing. Dude brings attitude, defense, toughness — everything our team needs. Artest+Brand or Kenyon would make this offseason an unqualified success.

    Does anyone know of a site that has truly up-to-date (including the “non-official” FA signings) cap #s?

  82. Brian Cronin

    Does anyone know of a site that has truly up-to-date (including the “non-official” FA signings) cap #s?

    None. Which is a real pain, as that would really come in handy. The best I have been able to do myself is to just use HoopsHype to guesstimate.

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