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Wednesday, October 22, 2014

Knicks Claim Derrick Brown Off Waivers

According to multiple sources, although Jonathan Givony was the first I saw break it on Twitter, the New York Knicks will claim Derrick Brown off waivers. Givony of Draft Express said “I like this move a lot. Was wondering who’d pick him up… Derrick Brown is a big-time athlete. 6-9 PF who can face-up, defend, and is great in transition. If he can make shots, he’ll be very good.”

Brown’s strengths are his wingspan & leaping ability. Offensively he appears to be an efficient dunker who scores well will without the ball. His shooting is a question mark, supposedly he has range out to three, but he only attempted 13 treys in 1023 minutes with Charlotte (making 4). On the downside his free throw shooting appears to be a liability (61.3%), and he may be shorter than advertised. (NBA.com has him at 6-8, basketball-reference has him at 6-7, DraftExpress has him 6-8.5 with shoes on.) Unfortunately his per-minute stats in Charlotte have him as an underwhelming rebounder (5.7 reb/36) and shot blocker (0.6 blk/36) despite his length/hops. Still he might be worthwhile for D’Antoni if his shot is dependable, given his efficiency (53.9%). But ultimately he doesn’t appear to have a huge upside.

97 comments on “Knicks Claim Derrick Brown Off Waivers

  1. Thomas B.

    If you are going to take risks anyway, why not take one on a Sean Williams? Legit 6-10 rebounder and shot blocker. Shawne Williams got his act together, why not Sean? He is probably better at what we need than Brown or JJ.

  2. taggart4800

    I would totally agree but maybe you take that risk in the off season rather than risking a guy like williams this close to the playoffs. It is of note that as yet he has not yet been picked up by anybody else this season (not sure what that says) and could likely be holding out to make more money this summer rather than being buried on a bench for the rest of the year. Other than that I see no reason not to give a guy like him a go. There are few teams that could have a more positive influence on Williams than the Knicks.

  3. taggart4800

    Hilarious sequence on my twitter feed as Stein and Yahoo sports announced Murphy had gone to two different teams at the same time. Stein said Boston and Yahoo Miami!

  4. Count de Pennies

    Odd move.

    Not having seen this guy play at all – and going strictly by the DE profile that Mike linked to – it sounds as if he isn’t bringing any new skill sets that the Knicks don’t already have in abundance.

    A 3-4 tweener, who’s a good perimeter player but an “average to below average rebounder” and whose skinny frame leaves him at a disadvantage against opposing bigs in the low post.

    Not really sure what needs he addresses.

  5. chrisk06811

    I have no clue who Derrick Brown is, but I found the below quote on a charlotte link thru espn. I guess they did not resign him. I’d still prefer earl barron, I don’t know who he pissed off last year. Did Earl have a Truck Party or something?

    here’s the quote:
    “The possibility of Derrick Brown being re-signed by the Bobcats doesn’t sound to most like super exciting news but it’s time for this guy to be taken a little bit more seriously. Brown was drafted by Charlotte two years ago and has never really gotten the playing time to show his full potential in this league but the bottom line is that this guy is super long and super athletic. Brown’s length and athleticism allow him to be a good defender around the rim and good at attacking the basket where he is able to draw fouls. Last season brown was sixth in the league among small forwards in free throw attempts per field goal attempts. Derrick Brown has the ability to be an exceptional rotation player in the NBA if he could only get his chance and it’s time for the Bobcats organization to take a chance on their 2nd round pick from 2009.”

  6. Brian Cronin

    I really hate the move if it means Balkman goes back to being glued to the bench.

    I think the Knicks likely just found Brown too tantalizing to pass up, even if he did not fit a need exactly. You know, sort of like drafting the best player available (especially since we don’t even know if Gadzuric was waived in time, right?)

  7. DS

    taggart4800: Hilarious sequence on my twitter feed as Stein and Yahoo sports announced Murphy had gone to two different teams at the same time. Stein said Boston and Yahoo Miami!  

    Oh really?? I guess I jumped the gun… twice as much as at stake now because I hate Miami and Yahoo more than I hate Boston and ESPN.

  8. taggart4800

    I know this is taking it waaaaaaay too seriously especially for a guy that wont play, but I stumbled across a clip of Browns pre-draft workout and the Draftexpress analysis is about bang on, go figure. Its not that he doesn’t have a jump shot its just that it takes him a very long time to get it off. He seemed to knock it down very effectively, although not in illustrious company. I could see how he would be a very efficient player given room to get the shot off.

  9. DS

    This hardly warrants a triple post on my part but Stein says: Troy “Murphy HIMSELF confirms to ESPN.com that he is going to Boston. B-O-S-T-O-N”

  10. villainx

    I wonder if these moves/wingmen obsession are sort of like D’Antoni looking for a Shawn Marion type or assembling a Marion type players.

  11. taggart4800

    @14 I saw that pretty much straight after but I find it hilarious how LeBron and Melo have changed things so dramatically that we even care where Troy Murphy is going! That constant obsession with having the latest news leads me to be interested about the decisions of a player who has a PER of around 6 this season. Even if Hollingers system is flawed that ain’t great!

  12. JK47

    I will be honest: I had never heard of Derrick Brown. His b-r page looks pretty nice, though– not a terribly great rebounder but an efficient low-usage scorer. He led the Bobcats with his .565 TS% and .558 eFG%.

    If you compare him side-by-side with his teammate Boris Diaw, they look pretty much identical on the stat sheet.

  13. Count de Pennies

    JK47: If you compare him side-by-side with his teammate Boris Diaw, they look pretty much identical on the stat sheet.  

    Hmmm… didn’t Diaw play center for D’Antoni in PHX the year that Amar’e was injured?

    Maybe that’s the thinking here: D’Antoni’s not trying to find the next Shawn Marion… but the next Boris Diaw.

  14. morenonsense

    I know that Corey Brewer hasn’t panned out the way he was expected to when he was drafted, but why buy him out and keep balkman, pick up derrick brown, cut kelenne? Brewer is likely the best defender out of that group, is still young, and I think has upside. Don’t understand this move.

  15. ww007

    Damn it why couldn’t the Knicks pick up Troy Murphy??? I just looked up his stats and they’re surprisingly good. Good 3-point shooter and good rebounder. Don’t know much about his D but those stats alone would’ve made him a good fit for the Knicks and he definitely would’ve been their starting center.

    ESPN was reporting he was “agonizing” over joining either Miami or Boston… why not the Knicks??? Don’t we supposedly have enough “star power” to attract big ticket free agents now (not that Troy Murphy was one but still)??? WTF

  16. stratomatic

    I think where Bibby goes could also be very significant.

    I know it’s only 3 games, but IMO Billups is helping the Knicks offense and Melo is hurting it so far.

    Melo may have become the #1 scoring option with his 27 a night, but he’s scoring much less efficiently than Gallo (who got 16 points) and significantly less efficiently than Amare (who is now averaging 22 instead of 26).

    So 20 of his 27 has been inferior.

    I assume the remaining 7 is coming from some combination of Chandler/Fields/Turiaf etc… who have all been either more or equally efficient as Melo this season.

    If his volume scoring is having some kind of positive impact on the rest of Knicks, I can’t find any evidence of it in the efficiency of the other players.

    So while the media, fans, Knicks bloggers etc… are still all exicted about Melo and the win over the Heat, IMO any benefit from the trade so far is entirely due to Billups being a better floor general and more efficient scorer than Felton which is offsetting the negative impact of Melo.

    So far Melo is making my worst fears more legitimate. We may have gotten an overhyped, overvalued, ball stopping scorer and gave up 2 young players (possibly 3) with upside and used up all our cap space for the priviledge.

    I’m a patient guy. I know things can turn on a dime given that all these players are new to each other. But when you have reason to believe something might happen and the early signs point to you being right, that’s not good.

  17. Mike Kurylo Post author

    JK47: I will be honest: I had never heard of Derrick Brown.His b-r page looks pretty nice, though– not a terribly great rebounder but an efficient low-usage scorer.He led the Bobcats with his .565 TS% and .558 eFG%.If you compare him side-by-side with his teammate Boris Diaw, they look pretty much identical on the stat sheet.  

    One of the things I didn’t note was his passing. His assist rate looks decent, so that could be a plus for Mike D.

  18. Mike Kurylo Post author

    ww007: ESPN was reporting he was “agonizing” over joining either Miami or Boston… why not the Knicks??? Don’t we supposedly have enough “star power” to attract big ticket free agents now (not that Troy Murphy was one but still)??? WTF

    I think you answered your own question there.

  19. NateRobinson

    Why? What is this? My canine nose tells me its an Isiah type move. I think hes already settling in. Thats how bad of a move this is…

    The umpteenth tweener on our team and somehow Roger freaking Mason is still on the team.

  20. JK47

    @22

    Meh, I’d rather have Brown or Balkman than Brewer. Brewer is still coasting on his reputation from being on a great college team. He’s been under a .500 TS% in three of his four seasons in the league and he averages 4 rebounds per 36 minutes. Basically, he has sucked ever since coming into the league and doesn’t look like he’s going to stop sucking anytime soon.

    Brown can at least put the ball in the basket and Balkman can rebound, so unless Brewer is a seriously hellacious on-ball defender you’re not getting much of an advantage keeping him around. Balkman and Brown have reputations as good defenders too.

  21. JK47

    @24

    The thing is, Melo hasn’t even played well yet by his own standards since coming here. He’s only at a .519 TS% so far for us, way below his season and career averages. Generally he’s at .545 or so, and in good seasons he’s up over .560.

    If he ever manages to stay up around that .560 mark for us, we’re going to be a pretty tough team to beat.

  22. ww007

    Mike Kurylo:

    ww007: ESPN was reporting he was “agonizing” over joining either Miami or Boston… why not the Knicks??? Don’t we supposedly have enough “star power” to attract big ticket free agents now (not that Troy Murphy was one but still)??? WTF

    I think you answered your own question there.  

    I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean he did not come to the Knicks because he is not a big ticket free agent (and thus the Knicks were not interested in him)? Of all the players available, he seemed to be the best one out there and would’ve filled a position the Knicks are weakest in yet they seemingly showed no interest?

    And why wouldn’t he want to come to the Knicks? He would’ve gotten plenty of playing time for sure (much more than with Miami or Boston). Does he not think Melo and Stat are “stars?” What does this bode for the Knicks chances of securing future free agents?

  23. stratomatic

    I want to say one more thing about this trade (and also apologize to hijacking the thread)

    If Walsh and D’Antoni were really in favor of giving up all those players and using all that cap space for Melo, I have serious personal reservations about them as a coach and GM that will ultimately be proven correct or incorrect.

    However, if Dolan negotiated and forced the trade on them, IMO any easily employed self respecting coach or GM with significant financial rescources would resign after the season.

    Seriously, why would you want your reputation tied to this deal UNLESS you are in agreement with it or are simply assuming that the fans and media are so stupid they’ll never be able to figure out whether it was a good or bad deal anyway?

    Either could get another great deal quickly.

    I’ve quit jobs in my lifetime over similar issue and I never had anywhere near the financial resocurce or employments opportunities as Walsh and D’Antoni.

    I don’t know, maybe I overreact by a lot, but I just don’t get this whole “being the good soldier” routine.

  24. stratomatic

    JK47: @24The thing is, Melo hasn’t even played well yet by his own standards since coming here. He’s only at a .519 TS% so far for us, way below his season and career averages. Generally he’s at .545 or so, and in good seasons he’s up over .560.If he ever manages to stay up around that .560 mark for us, we’re going to be a pretty tough team to beat.  (Quote)

    Not as good as we could have been if most of his shots are coming out of players that used to score with close to a TS% of 60%.

  25. ess-dog

    ww007:
    I don’t understand what you mean. Do you mean he did not come to the Knicks because he is not a big ticket free agent (and thus the Knicks were not interested in him)? Of all the players available, he seemed to be the best one out there and would’ve filled a position the Knicks are weakest in yet they seemingly showed no interest?And why wouldn’t he want to come to the Knicks? He would’ve gotten plenty of playing time for sure (much more than with Miami or Boston). Does he not think Melo and Stat are “stars?” What does this bode for the Knicks chances of securing future free agents?  

    He wants to win a ring. That means Miami or Boston (or LA or the Spurs.) This is really not worth freaking out about. Most likely, Murphy has fallen off a cliff and will not be able to climb back up.

  26. TDM

    Sean Williams, Earl Barron, Courtney Sims, Chris Johnson, hell even PEJr. The list is long of guys I would have signed before MJ’s castoff.

    In other news, Eddy Curry is indicating that he will be joining the heat in coming weeks.

  27. ess-dog

    Re: Azu,
    I hope we keep tabs on him and consider him for a cheap signing for next year. I guess that goes for Brown too. These guys are all auditioning for one year contracts next year. Brown and Azu (if he’s healthy) seem like the perfect cheap bench guys that we’ll need.

  28. NateRobinson

    @ 34

    I think its the fact that players rather ‘ride the first wave thats coming’ than wait for it to come.

    Knicks are a ‘possibly next year championship contender’ rather than this year.

    And strat, Melo has 3 games with the Knicks. So with all due respect take your stats and save them for when they matter..

    A lot of the stats are not meaningful in an individual game basis. Who scores in the 4th, how its scored, against whom, those are all more telling figures. Against elite defenses the Chandlers, Gallos, dissapear because they cannot create for themselves on a consistent basis.

  29. Count de Pennies

    I understand the lingering unhappiness with the Melo deal – hey, I didn’t much like it myself. But, really, what’s the use in continuing to harp on Melo’s inefficiency relative to Gallo or WC at this point?

    For better or worse, the Knick braintrust apparently does not give as much weight to advanced stats as do many on this blog. The bottom line is the Knicks wanted a “superstar” – so they happily overpaid to get one.

    Now, I’m aware that many Knickerbloggers don’t consider Melo to be worthy of “superstar” designation (I don’t really grok it meself) But that’s not really important. What IS important is that:

    ESPN believes Melo is a superstar – and reminds us of it at every available opportunity.

    Which, in turn, means:

    The league views Melo as one of its “marquee” talents, ergo one of the cornerstones of its marketing efforts.

    Which, in turn, means:

    Favorable treatment from the referees, resulting in more dubious calls in his favor on offense and fewer on defense.

    It also means greater respect from opposing superstars. One thing that struck me at the end of the Miami game on Sunday was the diminished swagger I saw from LeBron & Co. Against the Gallo/Chandler/Felton Knicks, the Heat positively oozed confidence – a confidence rooted in the belief that in a close finish, the vast superiority of their talent would prevail. I just did not get that same vibe from them on Sunday. If the mere addition of Melo & Chauncey does nothing more than introduce a flicker of doubt into the psyches of the opposition, it’s a good thing.

    So we may not believe the hype. But seeing as how many of the entities whose opinion has a a far greater influence on the outcome of games DO believe the hype, the addition of Melo does have an added value that cannot be easily quantified in an advanced statisitic.

  30. Owen

    “A lot of the stats are not meaningful in an individual game basis. Who scores in the 4th, how its scored, against whom, those are all more telling figures.”

    Yup. The first 44 minutes don’t matter.

  31. Doug

    Owen:And Abbott saying that Corey Brewer has a ton of off box score value.The Knicks Could Use a Good Geek
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25595/the-knicks-could-use-a-good-geek  

    That Abbott column is… quite a stretch. Corey Brewer, the next Bruce Bowen? Corey Brewer doesn’t take bad shots? Corey Brewer is a great locker room guy?

    Until Brewer starts showing any signs of being able to hit a corner 3, I won’t hold my breath on him becoming the next Bowen. Because Brewer still oblivious to the fact that he has no jumper, he takes a ton of bad shots. I have no idea where Abbott got that idea from, either.

    And then Abbott tries to make the case that Brewer is a good three-point shooter because he’s “clutch.” Abbott thinks he might lead the NBA in “end of quarter makes.” I guess he’s Horry-esque. Abbott also believes that Brewer is streaky, and can get up to 40% from 3 when he’s hot. And yet, Brewer is shooting 26% this season.

    I don’t know if Abbott is taking the Slate-style contrarian angle by becoming Brewer’s biggest apologist, but I call BS on his entire column.

  32. Frank O.

    NateRobinson: Why? What is this? My canine nose tells me its an Isiah type move. I think hes already settling in. Thats how bad of a move this is…The umpteenth tweener on our team and somehow Roger freaking Mason is still on the team.  (Quote)

    You people are obsessed.
    :)
    It’s either a tick or an illness. Not sure which. But everytime someone doesn’t like a move, Isiah must be at the bottom of the move…
    zzzzzzzzzzz

  33. Doug

    TDM: Sean Williams, Earl Barron, Courtney Sims, Chris Johnson, hell even PEJr.The list is long of guys I would have signed before MJ’s castoff.In other news, Eddy Curry is indicating that he will be joining the heat in coming weeks.  

    Gian Casimiro raised the possibility of Charlotte cutting Brown after the Wallace deal to make room for Portland’s fillers, and hoping to re-sign him later. If that is the case, then it’s quite the shrewd move by Donnie.

  34. JK47

    @42

    Ha, ANY shot Corey Brewer takes is a bad shot. You’d be hard pressed to find another player with shooting statistics as fugly as Brewer’s. Darko is a better shooter. DARKO!

  35. Frank O.

    ess-dog: Oy vey.  (Quote)

    Walsh has managed to plant a virus in the Heat organization. Brilliant!

    Of course, if this is viewed badly…it’s Isiah’s doing for sure and cements his covert place in the New York Knicks organization. I bet he’s eating Walsh’s lunch right at this very moment.
    ;)

  36. Count de Pennies

    Frank O.: Of course, if this is viewed badly…it’s Isiah’s doing for sure and cements his covert place in the New York Knicks organization. I bet he’s eating Walsh’s lunch right at this very moment.
    ;) Frank O.

    Isiah made you write that.

  37. Frank O.

    Doug: That Abbott column is… quite a stretch. Corey Brewer, the next Bruce Bowen? Corey Brewer doesn’t take bad shots? Corey Brewer is a great locker room guy?Until Brewer starts showing any signs of being able to hit a corner 3, I won’t hold my breath on him becoming the next Bowen. Because Brewer still oblivious to the fact that he has no jumper, he takes a ton of bad shots. I have no idea where Abbott got that idea from, either.And then Abbott tries to make the case that Brewer is a good three-point shooter because he’s “clutch.” Abbott thinks he might lead the NBA in “end of quarter makes.” I guess he’s Horry-esque. Abbott also believes that Brewer is streaky, and can get up to 40% from 3 when he’s hot. And yet, Brewer is shooting 26% this season.I don’t know if Abbott is taking the Slate-style contrarian angle by becoming Brewer’s biggest apologist, but I call BS on his entire column.  (Quote)

    I bet you Isiah planted that story to undercut Walsh’s decision and further cement his covert place within the NY Knicks organization.
    I mean the guy is so seemingly incompetent, but it’s probably a ruse designed by Isiah so that he could further cement his place within the Knicks organization. Indeed, he’s probably actively sought villification to mask his brilliance so that folks would only be able to guess whether he had cemented his place within the organization when in fact…he already has.
    Man, this guy is fucking brilliant.:)

  38. stratomatic

    NateRobinson: @ 34<And strat, Melo has 3 games with the Knicks. So with all due respect take your stats and save them for when they matter.. A lot of the stats are not meaningful in an individual game basis. Who scores in the 4th, how its scored, against whom, those are all more telling figures. Against elite defenses the Chandlers, Gallos, dissapear because they cannot create for themselves on a consistent basis.  (Quote)

    Clearly 3 games means very little, but we have several year of data to use to try estimate the possible outcomes. So far there’s nothing in the 3 games to suggest that the future is going to be much different than the past.

    Personally, I don’t totally discount the ability to create shots. IMO shot creation has value. But that value is built right into Melo’s stats. It’s not like people can’t see that Melo is a higher usage scorer.

    The thing is, if you are sacrificing efficiency to get shot creation you may not be in a position to need shot creation in the last few minutes because you are further behind and vice versa.

  39. Frank O.

    Doug: Gian Casimiro raised the possibility of Charlotte cutting Brown after the Wallace deal to make room for Portland’s fillers, and hoping to re-sign him later. If that is the case, then it’s quite the shrewd move by Donnie.  (Quote)

    Or Isiah. Who knows?

  40. NateRobinson

    @ 41

    I’m confused, not once did I refute the importance of the first 44 minutes. I did emphasize the importance of scoring in the 4th quarter though, which to me is something we severely lacked when D.Lee was our PF.

    Most of you brought up the “advanced” statistics that David was superior. But forgot to take into account the other aspects your “advanced” statistics fail to cover. Lee would’ve never gotten an entire team defense to collapse and force a kick out for an open three. Chandler would’ve never forced a soft double-team on an iso-lation which leads to an easy weak side 3.

  41. Count de Pennies

    @48

    That’s why Isiah wanted Gallo gone.

    Isiah know Gallo was the only guy in the Knick organization who had ever read Machiavelli. And in the original Italian, no less.

  42. Count de Pennies

    Any other longtime NY Giants fans here besides me who experienced a queasy feeling upon learning that the Knicks had signed a player named Derrick Brown?

  43. Frank

    You know, I have to agree with the other Frank on this one. I guarantee you not one person on this blog has actually seen more than 2 minutes of youtube video on Derrick Brown, and are already ridiculing the move. Who cares if we already have other wings? Brown’s going to be near the end of the bench and will hardly ever see the floor, just like any other waiver/unsigned FA. The purpose of this is to add what Donnie/MDA consider an asset – someone who has development or trade potential. I personally would’ve loved to see them pick up Sean Williams, but that dude was a total off-court disaster when he was with the Nets, which is why he slipped in the draft and then was D-Leagued. No one we pick up now is going to see a whole lot of time, so why not take a flyer on a kid they think has potential? My guess is the same people that reflex bash this move are the same ones who were bashing Donnie for drafting Landry Fields. Let’s see how it plays out before we start throwing people overboard.

  44. Mike Kurylo Post author

    FYI Ewing JR. NBDL averages this yr:
    54% TS%
    35% 3p%
    9+ reb/36.

    Someone will grab him before the year is up. Seems like a good fit for D’Antoni, no?

  45. ess-dog

    Mike Kurylo: FYI Ewing JR. NBDL averages this yr:
    54% TS%
    35% 3p%
    9+ reb/36.Someone will grab him before the year is up. Seems like a good fit for D’Antoni, no?  

    Considering it’s the D-league, he should be playing better. The rebounding is impressive. I’ve heard that Marcus Landry is tearing it up down there.

  46. stratomatic

    Owen: Big day for big thoughts on basketball analytics…Rob Mahoney on the The Perfect Futility of Basketball Analyticshttp://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/the-perfect-futility-of-basketball-analytics/And Abbott saying that Corey Brewer has a ton of off box score value.The Knicks Could Use a Good Geekhttp://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25595/the-knicks-could-use-a-good-geek  (Quote)

    Owen,

    I read that the Knicks had no real interest in Brewer to begin with. They thought there was enough interest around the league that they might be able to make a deal for someone else they were interested in, but nothing came to pass. Aside from the fact that releasing him may have been a mistake, in hindsight insisting on keeping him when Denver was actually very interested in him probably cost the Knicks Mozgov.

  47. Brian Cronin

    I find it hard to believe that the Nuggets really wanted Brewer on top of Gallo and WC (when they already had Afflalo and Smith).

  48. stratomatic

    NateRobinson: @ 41I’m confused, not once did I refute the importance of the first 44 minutes. I did emphasize the importance of scoring in the 4th quarter though, which to me is something we severely lacked when D.Lee was our PF.Most of you brought up the “advanced” statistics that David was superior. But forgot to take into account the other aspects your “advanced” statistics fail to cover. Lee would’ve never gotten an entire team defense to collapse and force a kick out for an open three. Chandler would’ve never forced a soft double-team on an iso-lation which leads to an easy weak side 3.  (Quote)

    I agree that there is value in some of the things that Melo and Amare bring to the table that Lee didn’t. I also think you can make a educated guess on the value of those things in the efficiency of players with and without someone that commands a double team.

    Personally, I think Melo’s high usage scoring and shot creation has more value than Gallo’s lower usuage highly efficient scoring (at least for now, let’s talk again in 3 years), but when some of Melo’s shots are also coming out the hide of other highly efficient scorers like Amare, Fields, Turiaf etc… and you already have Amare, he’s a net negative relative to Gallo/Chandler.

    For this to work, IMO the Knicks are going to have to figure out a way for Melo to either suddenly become a better shooter, get many more easy shots, or reduce his role in the offense so the team can truly take advantage of what…

  49. stratomatic

    Brian Cronin: I find it hard to believe that the Nuggets really wanted Brewer on top of Gallo and WC (when they already had Afflalo and Smith).  (Quote)

    That’s what a read before the deal and after the deal but the sources could easily be wrong.

  50. jon abbey

    Mike Kurylo: @30. I meant that apparently ‘Melo & Stat don’t have enough “star power” to attract whoever they want.  

    or they could give a shit about Troy Murphy, who is a fringe rotation player at best.

  51. Count de Pennies

    @65

    Mike D certainly does know a thing or two about squeezing every last drop you can out of an aging PG.

    Maybe he can get Chauncey a referral to Nash’s medicine man.

  52. Frank O.

    stratomatic: Owen, I read that the Knicks had no real interest in Brewer to begin with. They thought there was enough interest around the league that they might be able to make a deal for someone else they were interested in, but nothing came to pass. Aside from the fact that releasing him may have been a mistake, in hindsight insisting on keeping him when Denver was actually very interested in him probably cost the Knicks Mozgov.  (Quote)

    Do we know Denver wanted Brewer, the Knicks denied them Brewer, and was more willing to part with Mosgov in his place….? Really?
    Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying here?
    I mean, my understanding of this was that Denver’s demand of Mosgov was almost a deal killer for the Knicks, but they eventually relented, not wanting to queer a deal for Carmelo over a reserve center of limited NBA minutes.

  53. dsulz

    Much as I hate to be the guy to say it, I’m going to: why isn’t Shelden Williams getting any burn? The dude has a TRR of 18.1 by far the best on the Knicks (not saying much, but still). His 250 lbs also make him the heaviest Knick–again, not saying that much–and he is 6’9″ which isn’t that tall but at 250lbs it aint that bad. It’s basically Ben Wallace proportions (who, I might add, also has a worse rebounding rate than Shel Wil). Against the Magic tonight, I feel like he should get a shot. If I see Stoudemire D-ing up Howard b/c Turiaf gets into his usual early foul trouble, I’m going to blow a gasket. Give Shelden Williams a chance!!!

  54. Frank O.

    stratomatic: I agree that there is value in some of the things that Melo and Amare bring to the table that Lee didn’t. I also think you can make a educated guess on the value of those things in the efficiency of players with and without someone that commands a double team. Personally, I think Melo’s high usage scoring and shot creation has more value than Gallo’s lower usuage highly efficient scoring (at least for now, let’s talk again in 3 years), but when some of Melo’s shots are also coming out the hide of other highly efficient scorers like Amare, Fields, Turiaf etc… and you already have Amare, he’s a net negative relative to Gallo/Chandler. For this to work, IMO the Knicks are going to have to figure out a way for Melo to either suddenly become a better shooter, get many more easy shots, or reduce his role in the offense so the team can truly take advantage of what…  (Quote)

    We were writing about this in an early thread. D’Antoni has had no time to integrate Billups and Carmelo, as well as the other new players, into his system and he said as much that he would let Melo be Melo until they all could get on the same sheet. Essentially, the three stars will need to play their respective games and the team would need to bring a lot of energy to be competitive in the short term.
    What that means to me is that you’ll eventually see Amare’s and Carmelo’s shots even out as they get together their schemes. Amare’s willingness to sacrifice and contribute in other obvious…

  55. Frank O.

    stratomatic: That’s what a read before the deal and after the deal but the sources could easily be wrong.  (Quote)

    This is one of those if-it-sounds-outlandish-it-probably-is moments for me.
    There is no way a team gives away a core need (a mobile, athletic center) to hold onto a marginal project player at a position for which you already are well-stocked.
    Especially, when all the reporting indicated the Knicks were about to scuttle the Carmelo/Billups deal over Mosgov.
    ImHO.

  56. Frank O.

    jon abbey: or they could give a shit about Troy Murphy, who is a fringe rotation player at best.  (Quote)

    Seriously, Troy Murphy…?

    It’s like he’s the new shiny thing that grabs someone attention. He’s a fringe guy, whose been in the league for a while, and he got waived.
    Waived players are essentially players that are so devalued that teams literally have decided they can get nothing from them and are willing to pay them to be rid of them.
    I will shed no tears over Murphy…or Brewer, or Powe.
    The days of pining for prats are over, folks. This is a team on the rise. ;)

  57. dsulz

    Frank O.: Especially, when all the reporting indicated the Knicks were about to scuttle the Carmelo/Billups deal over Mosgov.

    More likely what happened is that Corey Brewer was the COMPROMISE piece, what the Knicks accepted in order to save face b/c they hadn’t wanted to include Moz.

  58. Frank O.

    Count de Pennies: @65Mike D certainly does know a thing or two about squeezing every last drop you can out of an aging PG. Maybe he can get Chauncey a referral to Nash’s medicine man.  (Quote)

    Chauncey looks good in Blue and Orange.

  59. Frank O.

    dsulz: Much as I hate to be the guy to say it, I’m going to: why isn’t Shelden Williams getting any burn? The dude has a TRR of 18.1 by far the best on the Knicks (not saying much, but still). His 250 lbs also make him the heaviest Knick–again, not saying that much–and he is 6’9? which isn’t that tall but at 250lbs it aint that bad. It’s basically Ben Wallace proportions (who, I might add, also has a worse rebounding rate than Shel Wil). Against the Magic tonight, I feel like he should get a shot. If I see Stoudemire D-ing up Howard b/c Turiaf gets into his usual early foul trouble, I’m going to blow a gasket. Give Shelden Williams a chance!!!  (Quote)

    But, see…he’s got an alien head. He’s got to keep 20-30 pounds in that forehead alone.
    D’Antoni plays a beautful game. I’m not sure you can call it that with Shelden Williams running in it.

    Seriously, he got 3 or 4 minutes last game. I think that was enough.

  60. StevenU

    Sheldon Williams is not a good fit at all- this is where the stat geeks get misled-forget the numbers-they guy has been around and had opportunities-he is simp,y not an NBA player let alone a SSOL player-not by a long shot.
    I am totally bummed that Troy Murphy-at 30 years of age-would rather rot on the end of the Celtics bench than be our likely starter at the 5. WTF? It is indeed a sign of the times-and-to me- a really pathetic sad one. Since when does a healthy wealthy athlete in his prime want to ride coattails to some sort of success rather than play ball? I think Boston only even signed him to keep Miami from doing so, and of all the possible teams he could have signed with the Knicks, clearly, are the one team that actually needs him. Bummer. Not that he is even a very good player but he is a perfect fit. Or would have been.
    And, salt in the wound: Earl Barron just signed with Milwaukee! Again, WTF? Rumors of his imminent signing with the Knicks have been making the rounds for weeks-what happened? He knows the system, and again-he’d be an instant starter on a good team with a glaring need-now he is back up to an all star player. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

  61. Frank O.

    StevenU: And, salt in the wound: Earl Barron just signed with Milwaukee! Again, WTF? Rumors of his imminent signing with the Knicks have been making the rounds for weeks-what happened? He knows the system, and again-he’d be an instant starter on a good team with a glaring need-now he is back up to an all star player. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?  (Quote)

    Steve:

    But there were also rumors about Jeffries, Powe, and some other schmucks, including Barron…
    I suspect the only guy that stands a chance of breaking into the lineup s Jeffries, and that is in part because he knows the system.
    The Knicks need assets that fit and who are fit.
    Again, these are slim pickings to begin with. Hardly worth getting upset over.
    We want players who want a challenge. We want warriors, not Golden State Warriors…like war-like warriors…:)

  62. Thomas B.

    ess-dog:

    Oy vey.  

    (Quote)

    Join the Heat. For what a dinner? He doesnt mean as a player does he? Can you imagine him sitting next to Wade and James at a post game presser? As long as he doesnt wear one of those super tight sweaters that Wade and James were wearing. Please don’t do it Eddy. When I want to see breasts with my sports news, I turn to SI.com.

    You know with the total revamp of the roster, there are very few people to make fun of. What is a comedian to do? There are only so many Sheldon Williams “Place your ad here” forehead jokes to make. Well we get to dust off the old “Jeffrightened” my God it has been too long. Okay quick question. Will JJ attempt and make more 3 pointers as a Knick this season than Roger Mason Jr.? Roger is 0-5. JJ was 1-6 with Houston. Can he do it?

  63. Count de Pennies

    That’s the beauty of blogs such as this.

    Was a time, not long past, that the only person who would have heard – let alone cared – about Derrick Brown signing with the Knicks was his mother.

    But thanks to the wonders of modern technology, Mr. Brown today finds himself the subject of his very own discussion thread, not to mention a mini-controversy as to whether he represents better value than some auld Oirish guy sporting a PER of 6.8.

    This is your moment, Derrick. Enjoy it while you can; this is probably the most attention you’ll ever get in your entire Knick career.

  64. StevenU

    @Frank O-you’re so levelheaded! ;-)
    Jeffries is fine…I guess, though lord knows I can still cringe just thinking about him shooting the ball-ever…from anywhere-at least with him you know the D will be awesome.
    And, you’re right…I was never excited by Barron last year, thought he looked fine…and none of these guys are big deal players.
    I do think Troy Murphy really would have been a perfect fit though, and, as a matter of principle this whole piggybacking thing is just so….UNsporting. UNinteresting. The opposite of inspiring.
    Seriously, Troy Murphy is 30 years old! Not 35-36-37. In theory he is smack dab in the middle of a professional career and now he’d rather be ML Carr on the bench in Boston, than our Barngani at the 5, raining open 3s off kick outs from Melo and Amare double treams?
    I find it incredibly lame.
    I am irrationally happy that Balkman seems like he might actually be in the rotation. I know he’s a bit player-but I like guys like that and there are very few.

  65. Frank O.

    Thomas B.: Join the Heat. For what a dinner? He doesnt mean as a player does he? Can you imagine him sitting next to Wade and James at a post game presser? As long as he doesnt wear one of those super tight sweaters that Wade and James were wearing. Please don’t do it Eddy. When I want to see breasts with my sports news, I turn to SI.com.You know with the total revamp of the roster, there are very few people to make fun of. What is a comedian to do? There are only so many Sheldon Williams “Place your ad here” forehead jokes to make. Well we get to dust off the old “Jeffrightened” my God it has been too long. Okay quick question. Will JJ attempt and make more 3 pointers as a Knick this season than Roger Mason Jr.? Roger is 0-5. JJ was 1-6 with Houston. Can he do it?  (Quote)

    New nickname for Roger Mason:
    Air Mason.
    BADABUM!!!!
    Thank you. Thank you very much.
    :)

  66. dsulz

    Frank O.: D’Antoni plays a beautful game. I’m not sure you can call it that with Shelden Williams running in it.

    See, that’s a problem, I think, if the game you coach is beautiful but not adjustable. The way we won in Miami on Sunday was not beautiful. It was tough, gritty, and full of messiness along the way. But we won, because we played D.
    Everyone keeps talking about the offense but why should it be the overriding concern? I’m not a Shel Wil fan by any stretch, but I’m looking at the Magic and thinking: how are we gonna guard Howard? That, to me, seems like an important question, one that should not necessarily be subordinated to SSOL. Do you disagree?

    FYI: Joel Anthony seems like a pretty capable low-post defender to me and his alien-like head has to weigh at least 50lbs.

  67. Frank O.

    StevenU: @I do think Troy Murphy really would have been a perfect fit though, and, as a matter of principle this whole piggybacking thing is just so….UNsporting. UNinteresting. The opposite of inspiring.Seriously, Troy Murphy is 30 years old! Not 35-36-37. In theory he is smack dab in the middle of a professional career and now he’d rather be ML Carr on the bench in Boston, than our Barngani at the 5, raining open 3s off kick outs from Melo and Amare double treams?I find it incredibly lame.I am irrationally happy that Balkman seems like he might actually be in the rotation. I know he’s a bit player-but I like guys like that and there are very few.  (Quote)

    It’s probably just Isiah’s anti-white player bias that is keeping Murphy from Knicks stardom. Damn you Isiah!!!!!

    (Please recognize that my Isiah race-related comment was an effort to amplify a stereotyped view of Isiah that I thought was unfair and generally unsupported. Ummm. This quote notwithstanding: “I think Larry (Bird) is a very, very good basketball player. He’s an exceptional talent,” added Detroit’s Isiah Thomas. “But I have to agree with Rodman. If he were black, he’d be just another good guy.” )

  68. Frank O.

    dsulz: See, that’s a problem, I think, if the game you coach is beautiful but not adjustable. The way we won in Miami on Sunday was not beautiful. It was tough, gritty, and full of messiness along the way. But we won, because we played D.Everyone keeps talking about the offense but why should it be the overriding concern? I’m not a Shel Wil fan by any stretch, but I’m looking at the Magic and thinking: how are we gonna guard Howard? That, to me, seems like an important question, one that should not necessarily be subordinated to SSOL. Do you disagree? FYI: Joel Anthony seems like a pretty capable low-post defender to me and his alien-like head has to weigh at least 50lbs.  (Quote)

    That part of my comment was satire…poor, satire, but satire nonetheless. :)

  69. Frank O.

    dsulz: See, that’s a problem, I think, if the game you coach is beautiful but not adjustable. The way we won in Miami on Sunday was not beautiful. It was tough, gritty, and full of messiness along the way. But we won, because we played D.Everyone keeps talking about the offense but why should it be the overriding concern? I’m not a Shel Wil fan by any stretch, but I’m looking at the Magic and thinking: how are we gonna guard Howard? That, to me, seems like an important question, one that should not necessarily be subordinated to SSOL. Do you disagree? FYI: Joel Anthony seems like a pretty capable low-post defender to me and his alien-like head has to weigh at least 50lbs.  (Quote)

    As for the Magic, to me you do your best with Howard, but you work to shut down the rest of the team, which, frankly, has played poorly.
    Of course, many shooters have enjoyed a renaissance against the Knicks perimeter defenders this year. But Howard seems quite disappointed in his teammates of late.

  70. Frank

    dsulz:
    I’m not a Shel Wil fan by any stretch, but I’m looking at the Magic and thinking: how are we gonna guard Howard?

    I have a feeling that Turiaf will start, but that there will be a fair amount of Shawne Williams playing center. We’ll double when he gets the ball in the post and hope he can’t make the pass out. Then DH will have to either guard Amare and be at risk for foul trouble on that end, or be pulled away from the basket to guard against Shawne’s corner 3’s. Seems like that’s how D’Antoni likes to deal with this mismatch.

    That said, if we’re getting killed by DH’s offense, I’d be happy to see Shelden out there.

  71. Frank O.

    and, dsulz, I like good sound defense. I think the Knicks will need to improve it quite a bit to go far in the playoffs. But with that beautiful offensive scheme, and it is a joy to watch, you need only a decent defense to win, not a great defense.
    I loved the Knicks of the 90s, but it was like a girl I loved in college, who was totally unreliable and not entirely my taste and generally left me disappointed more often than not.

  72. dsulz

    Frank O.: But Howard seems quite disappointed in his teammates of late.

    Good point. Maybe we’ll be able to cash in their downward spiral.
    But I could also see the Magic feasting off second-chance opportunities with our shitty defensive rebounding. You give those perimeter guys on Orlando enough second chances they’ll make you pay. As for guarding Howard, I don’t know how much more effective Shel Wil would be than Shawne Wil–Turiaf will obviously start, but almost certainly get into quick foul trouble like he always does–but I do know that Shel Williams will provide a significant boost on the defensive glass. (I never thought I would be defending Shelden Williams so earnestly!).

  73. ess-dog

    Arroyo was just released by the Heat. He’s got to be a better option than Anthony Carter, no?

  74. dsulz

    ess-dog: Arroyo was just released by the Heat.He’s got to be a better option than Anthony Carter, no?  

    I was thinking the same thing. BTW: are they any possibilities for the Knicks to draft a PG late in the first round this summer? The idea of drafting a decent PG who can tutor under Billups and then thrive setting up STAT and Melo really appeals to me. More than getting CP3 in some ways.

  75. Frank O.

    For shits and giggles, I was curious how Bird compared to some great players from his time, before and after.
    It was a random comparison, simply because I didn’t have time to think it through.
    I chose to compare him to Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan, all at age 29, when I think they were at the height of their powers.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=birdla01&y1=1986&p2=johnsma02&y2=1989&p3=jordami01&y3=1993&p4=malonka01&y4=1993&p5=malonmo01&y5=1985&p6=bryanko01&y6=2008

    In win shares, he was third behind Jordan and Magic.

    And when you compare Larry to Isiah, it’s not even a comparison. Larry nearly doubles Isiah’s win share, and indeed is better in virtually ever category except assists.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=birdla01&y1=1986&p2=thomais01&y2=1991

    Nothing scientific to see here. Just me pissing on Isiah a bit. Thought people might like it…:)

  76. Brian Cronin

    What that means to me is that you’ll eventually see Amare’s and Carmelo’s shots even out as they get together their schemes.

    I agree that that is what we should eventually see. It’s up to Melo to determine if that is what we see.

  77. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin: I agree that that is what we should eventually see. It’s up to Melo to determine if that is what we see.  (Quote)

    One would think a player who forces a trade to play with another great player in hopes of winning a championship in his home city knows that he can’t get there simply doing what he’s always done at the expense of the other great player.
    But I’m sure stranger things have happened.

  78. JK47

    I actually wouldn’t mind seeing Turiaf’s minutes go to Shelden Williams. Turiaf rebounds like a freaking guard. His weak rebounding really offsets a lot of his defensive value. Shelden averages 10.2 boards per 36 minutes over his career. Put him out there with Billups, Fields, Melo and Stat and that is a lineup that should have plenty of offense and also shouldn’t get embarrassed on the boards.

    I hope that D’Antoni gives Shelden a chance to show his stuff after we allow 8 offensive rebounds to Orlando in the first quarter.

  79. Brian Cronin

    One would think a player who forces a trade to play with another great player in hopes of winning a championship in his home city knows that he can’t get there simply doing what he’s always done at the expense of the other great player.
    But I’m sure stranger things have happened.

    They just beat the Heat with Melo taking 22 shots and Amar’e taking 14, so he might very well think that that is a winning combination. Hopefully he does not. I’m just saying that A. it’s up to him and B. we will soon find out which one he chooses.

  80. dsulz

    JK47: I actually wouldn’t mind seeing Turiaf’s minutes go to Shelden Williams.

    Maybe. But that’s still only about 20-25 min a game. There’s another 20-25 min which mostly Shawne Williams has been plugging (totally out of position), and a bit of Amare (who should be nowhere NEAR the 5 spot this game). IMO neither Shel Wil or Turiaf is that good. But it’s an extra 6 fouls for something approximate to the same thing–defensive rebounds, muscle in the paint, and staying out of the way on offense. If Shel Wil can do that, great! Why burn up Shawne Wil’s energy and fouls with guarding in the post? I don’t think people on this blog are appreciating just how badly the Knicks have been killed on the defensive glass this year. Total rebounding we’re not bad, because Landry and others make up for it a bit on the offensive glass. But our defensive rebounding sucks, and it ends up having the larger effect of demoralizing our defensive energy.

    Also: a lot of people have noticed that Shawne Williams hasn’t been draining threes recently like he was before. Anyone think that might be b/c he’s working so hard on D that he doesn’t have as much left over at the other end? Sounds plausible to me.

  81. tenebrous

    Tu’s minutes to Sheldon? guess tu is complaining too much … tu if u got space shoot the ball

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