Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, July 28, 2014

Knicks Shoot Down Isiah Rumors

At 4am this morning Yahoo! Sports Adrian Wojnarowski published an article speculating that Isiah Thomas was pulling the strings on the Carmelo Anthony deal.

The thin veil of secrecy has torn away now, the pretenses gone and Isiah Thomas has left the shadows and moved into the light again. Once more, he is the New York Knicks’ top basketball executive.

Thomas is driving everything through owner James Dolan – the trade for Carmelo Anthony(notes), the departure of Donnie Walsh and perhaps even the eventual hiring of the New York Knicks’ next president and general manager, multiple league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

“Isiah is calling the shots for New York,” said one front-office executive with knowledge of the Anthony trade talks. “It’s a disgrace. Donnie should walk.”

A few hours later, KnickerBlogger writer Kevin McElroy asked me if we should cover the story. I declined, because I felt Wojnarowski’s piece was more rumor and opinion than fact.

Look at the above quote, which is how the article starts. Wojnarowski uses strong and clear language stating that Isiah Thomas “is the New York Knicks’ top basketball executive.” However what does he give to back-up such statement? Proof by way of payment from the team to Isiah? No. Proof by way of emails or other intercepted communication? No. Photographs? Nope. What does he back it with? The statement of an anonymous supposed front office executive. Short of reality shows and teenagers, most people know to ignore such evidence. If Wojnarowski named the exec, then we can deem it valid. For instance what if you found out that the executive was someone from the Nets front office? Wouldn’t you think this is a perfect lie to tell in order to get Knick fans to jump ship once the Nets arrive in New Jersey? There’s a reason that hearsay isn’t valid in a court of law.

Wojnarowski’s article was evocative, but lacked the substance to back it up. And without any kind of evidence I thought I’d treat it as rumor and left it alone. However the Knicks have supposedly issued a statement to contradict Wojnarowski’s article:

“We want to make it abundantly clear that we have been in constant communication throughout this process and the three of us are in complete agreement with everything that we are currently working on. Together, we will do what is best for the long-term success of the franchise,” said the statement, which was attributed to Dolan, Walsh and coach Mike D’Antoni.

I don’t see the statement on the team’s web page, nor did I receive any emails on it. (I’ve reached out to the team to ask them if this is true). In any case, while I’d hate to squash the out of the box thinking of skeptics, I don’t see any reason to believe that Isiah is running the team, and the evidence is all on my side.

The first reason is that the Knicks have not done any Isiah-type moves since Donnie has taken over. If Isiah is truly running the team, as Wojnarowski proposes, there would be previous evidence of such tampering. Secondly it wouldn’t be uncommon for Donnie Walsh to up his proposal or take a bigger risk. I offer last year’s trade with Houston as one where Walsh threw in a chip too many in order to try and get a big star. Third, it’s quite common for owners to make decisions about their team. Just look at the New Jersey Nets Prokhorov who has been involved in his franchise’s handling of Carmelo Anthony. George Steinbrenner made his name by sticking his nose in the Yankees front office business.

Finally it just doesn’t make sense that a previous GM would be making moves on the side. Isiah Thomas isn’t banished from the team. Dolan is free to hire him at any time he chooses. I can’t think of any examples of this occurring. Guys like Matt Millen and Kevin McHale usually stay at their job way past they’re supposed to. Owners of these teams don’t care about their fans, or at least they value their own judgment more. In other words, they aren’t ashamed to stick with their man no matter what the fan base and media thinks.

So is it reasonable to think that Walsh is taking a bigger risk? Yes. It might be a small leap to say that Dolan is getting directly involved with the front office. But going from that to saying Isiah is in charge of the front office is a Evel Knievel Canyon-esque type leap.


[EDIT: I just received this from the Knicks Public Relations Department.]

The following is a joint statement from Executive Chairman, Madison Square Garden James L. Dolan, President, Basketball Operations Donnie Walsh and Head Coach Mike D’Antoni:

“We want to make it abundantly clear that we have been in constant communication throughout this process and the three of us are in complete agreement with everything that we are currently working on. Together, we will do what is best for the long-term success of the franchise. In addition, we want to make it clear that no one from outside our organization has been involved in this process in any way. We will have no further comment at this time.”

441 comments on “Knicks Shoot Down Isiah Rumors

  1. Kevin McElroy

    Extremely measured and well argued response Mike. I am a bigger pessimist than you and have no faith in Dolan so I’m not taking it in stride quite as well as you are. But certainly you make the case for getting off the ledge as well as it can be made.

  2. totti

    the statement itself proves that walsh has been overruled

    “excusatio non petita
    accusatio manifesta”

    ask lawyers what it means

  3. Frank O.

    The number of rumors being reported as fact these days is off the charts.
    Amare’s toe must be better because he’s getting some minutes in this game.

    You know, there is a part of me that wonders, if the carmelo deal is done, what else are the Knicks going to do? It feels like they still need a back up point.

    It just feels like another shoe is out there waiting to drop.

  4. Owen

    Agreed. The wade commercial where he says “get me outta of here” after getting stuck in a bathroom and it goes viral as a trade demand is a pretty accurate portrayal of how things work these days.

  5. BigBlueAL

    Hahn now reporting Denver says if no Mozgov then Melo gets traded to NJ. This is getting ridiculous now.

  6. Frank

    BigBlueAL: Hahn now reporting Denver says if no Mozgov then Melo gets traded to NJ.This is getting ridiculous now.  

    Dude seriously – this is just like the guy reraising with absolutely nothing in his hand. I’d say give us Nene or Lawson or the deal is off and you can go eff yourselves, or better yet, you, Toronto, and Cleveland can go eff yourselves with each other in your loser three-way.

  7. bockadoo

    mozgov too, huh…this is beyond ridiculous. i’ve been a huge fan of this team for 40 years, and will NOT watch another game if they do this. we would do this because it’ll set us up for cp3/howard/dwill? how many things could go wrong between now and then – they get hurt, change their minds…this is a dysfunctional way to build a championship team. why don’t we draft good players, make reasonable trades like everyone else, sign good free agents when available…melo is a ball stopper who does not fit with stat or the system anyway. if he takes a little less money like the miami guys did – he is tough, rebounds well from that position, and really wants to be here – then maybe, but we are really bending over on this and it’s just another embarrasing damn situation.

  8. latke

    It would be absolutely hilarious if the trade didn’t get done over Mozgov. In five years or so, Brian can write a “Unsung Knicks History” titled “How Timofey Mozgov Saved the Knicks”.

    Here’s your opening: “Six years ago, retired Knick GM Donnie Walsh was desperate to find a big man that could succeed in Mike D’Antoni’s offense. So desperate was he, that he traveled across the globe, from Europe, to Australia, to the shores of Africa, eventually arriving in Russian tundra where he found a 7’1″ Russian with a goofy smile. Mozgov only stuck on the Knicks for three years and, on the nights that his hands didn’t seem covered in butter, had a few nice moments. One thing that we DON’T realize is that if the Denver Nuggets had not found Mozgov so darn cute, the Knicks would have been burdened with Carmelo Anthony’s huge contract (which NJ has enjoyed for the last five years. ‘Melo has carried the Brooklyn Nets to exactly three total games won in the playoffs) and would not have had the space to sign our good friends Dwight Howard and Chris Paul.”

  9. cgreene

    God I hate Steve Kerr. Guy walked into a GM job of a team that was winning 60 with 2 All NBA players and acts like he built something. He didn’t. And when we he realized Amare was gonna bail he bailed. Also we was going to trade Amare to the Cavs for JJ Hickson but the idiot Cavs wouldn’t do it.

  10. tastycakes

    One nice thing about the ASG is I can root for LeBron again. I like his fire and desire. I don’t care if its exhibition, I want guys to play to win. Otherwise, they might as well be running drills.

    Stat arguing calls is pretty funny. Can he get T’ed up in the ASG?

    Also, respect to Kobe for interfering with Sages’ pathetic attempt to get Melo to talk trade on the bench.

    The East’s starting 5 is beastly. A shame that Kobe decided he wants that ASG MVP record.

  11. Mike Kurylo Post author

    totti: the statement itself proves that walsh has been overruled“excusatio non petita
    accusatio manifesta”ask lawyers what it means  

    Basically it says if you offer evidence without being attacked, then you are guilty. The problem is the Knicks were accused of this very thing. So I guess this doesn’t apply?

  12. BigBlueAL

    Adrian Woj with more great speculation:

    A front office executive with knowledge of ‘Melo talks between Denver-New York says: “Knicks won’t lose this deal over a reserve big man.”

    I didnt know Turiaf was involved in the trade talks too….

  13. BigBlueAL

    Chris Broussard now saying Denver has not given Knicks an ultimatum about Mozgov having to be part of the deal.

    This is worse than the days leading up to the “Decision”.

  14. ess-dog

    I hope we call their bluff. Let Melo rot in New Jersey for 2 years and then Brooklyn where he’ll never get a ring.

  15. New Guy

    Yeah, well done, Kobe. Too bad he couldn’t save Bieber from getting drilled by Sager like he was Roger Clemens at a congressional hearing.

    Here’s hoping that the nuggets greedy desire for more blows this up and we turn our attention elsewhere.

  16. Doug

    That is why Amar’e is better than Bosh.

    I bet Bosh saw Amar’e hit the 3 and think “I can do that do.”

  17. BigBlueAL

    Amar’e finishes with 29 pts on 20 FGA, 6 rebs, 2 asts, 1 blk and 1 to. Probably same line he will finish with on Wed vs the Bucks lol.

  18. New Guy

    So, trusting Hahn, package is now:

    Gallo
    Chandler
    Felton
    Mozgov
    Randolph
    2014 #1

    Come on, Donnie/Dolan. Walk away.

  19. latke

    In three years, those five players could make the starting 5 of a 2nd round playoff team. Wouldn’t it be fun if the ex-knicks advanced further in the playoffs than the new knicks?

  20. BigBlueAL

    latke: In three years, those five players could make the starting 5 of a 2nd round playoff team. Wouldn’t it be fun if the ex-knicks advanced further in the playoffs than the new knicks?  

    Lets not get carried away now. That starting lineup probably couldnt even make the playoffs let alone make it to the 2nd round.

    All 5 could be starters on very good teams obviously but lets not get carried away about call them a starting 5 unit on a playoff team let alone a playoff team that gets to the 2nd round.

  21. New Guy

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Anything is possible from James Dolan.  

    Maybe even something intelligent?

    This is the perfect excuse to back out and tell Melo we did everything we could, but Denver just doesn’t want to trade you here. Every time we satisfy their demands, they come back with more demands. “I’m sorry, kid. We’ll be waiting in the summer if you’re still around. And whatever money you lose in the new CBA I’ll make sure LaLa gets.”

    That would be fantastic.

  22. Thomas B.

    Wake me when 25th is here. So sick of the “unnamed sources” and “a source with ties to the discussions.” So much of it seems driven by the need to sell papers, drives eyes to websites, and gain followers via twitter. I just do not buy that this much information is actually spilling from closed door meetings with such a small group. Personally, if I was a GM I’d have every member of the staff sign non disclosure agreements. You leak info, you hit the streets.

  23. latke

    BigBlueAL:
    Lets not get carried away now.That starting lineup probably couldnt even make the playoffs let alone make it to the 2nd round.All 5 could be starters on very good teams obviously but lets not get carried away about call them a starting 5 unit on a playoff team let alone a playoff team that gets to the 2nd round.  

    I didn’t say “will”, just “could”. Chandler, Gallinari, Felton and Randolph all have the reasonably potential (say 10% odds) of developing into fringe all stars — guys who make the all-star game 1-2 times in their careers. Mozgov’s potential is that of “solid two way big man”. With a decent bench, I don’t see why we couldn’t call 2nd round playoff team the best reasonable case scenario.

  24. Kevin McElroy

    Should call Nets bluff. Starting to legitimately believe he won’t sign there. Should pull Gallo off the table and see how they react. Personally expect this to go all the way to Thursday.

  25. BigBlueAL

    What also sucks is Knicks have games on Wed and Fri so trade could affect those games in terms of the Knicks playing shorthanded if trade doesnt happen by tomorrow.

    Not to mention next 2 games are at Miami and Orlando so not exactly easy games to integrate the new players if trade happens on Wed/Thur.

  26. Kevin McElroy

    Latke,

    If you think that starting 5 could make a 2nd round team I think the best way to prove/disprove that argument would be to compare/contrast it to last year’s Bobcats. Felton the PG of both team. So W Chandler vs. S Jackson in the slasher/wing defender role, A Randolph vs. T Thomas in the defense/rebounding athletic forward, Gallo v. Gerald Wallace on the wing, Mozgov vs. Tyson Chandler as the bigs.

    In my opinoin that Charlotte team is better at all 4 non-Felton positions (where they are obviously equal), their defense was much better, they had diaw/nazr/augustin on the bench, and they had the right coach for that particular season. And they won 44 games, got embarrassed in the first round, and were still judged to have overachieved (have come crashing down to earth this year).

    So in my mind it’s hard to argue that’s a 2nd round team.

  27. New Guy

    Ok let’s not get too carried away with how far our package could go in the playoffs and just focus on the fact that Holy Sh%# that’s too much to trade!

  28. Ben R

    Just to join in on those five making the 2nd round of the playoffs in the future I think it would be possible. In two years I fully expect Chandler and Randolph to be better than Thomas or Jackson were last year. Possibly quite a bit better. Felton will be Felton but Felton in two years should be Felton at his absolute peak and therefore a little better than Felton last year. Gallo should be about on par to Wallace last year just much better on offense and worse on defense and rebounding. That just leaves Mozgov and him being equal is more romote but I don’t think impossible, he has alot more offensive potential, if it all comes together, and his defense will probably be pretty close, so that should just about offset the worse rebounding.

    Overall in two years I could see a starting lineup of:
    Felton
    Chandler
    Gallo
    Randolph
    Mozgov
    with a good bench winning 45 games and making the playoffs. That could get them a 5-6 seed and with an upset that would be a 2nd round playoff team. Alot of things would have to go right but it’s not out of the question. I don’t think it’s much worse than:
    Douglas or replacement level PG (Sessions, Ridnour, etc.)
    Fields
    Melo
    Amare
    Turiaf or replacement level C
    Which is what our most likely team will be in two years if we make this trade. No way we have the cap space to make a run at a big name PG if Melo and Amare are earning 42+ Million in 2012.

  29. Brian Cronin

    Ok let’s not get too carried away with how far our package could go in the playoffs and just focus on the fact that Holy Sh%# that’s too much to trade!

    Agreed.

  30. JK47

    “Give us Mozgov or we trade Melo to the Nets” is the most transparent bluff I’ve ever seen.

    Uh, if Melo was willing sign the extension with the Nets, then why not just trade him there for Favors, Harris and the boatload of draft picks? Why are you even talking with the Knicks at all?

  31. Z

    I’m afraid to check the opinions of other fan sites. I assume we Knickerbloggers are in the vast minority, though, and that “get Melo at any cost” is the prevalent line of thinking among the mainstream masses of Knick fans, right? That if somehow this deal doesn’t go through and Melo doesn’t land with the Knicks by Thursday we will be collectively sighing while the other 99% of fans out there will curse and yell. Is there a general consensus on how much is too much among Knick fans across the blog sites?

  32. massive

    I’m not sure how nobody else can see that Gallo, Chandler, Randolph, Mozgov, and Felton plus a 1st round pick is worth more than the right to overpay Carmelo Anthony. If we get him, I pray its not for the full price Denver is looking for.

  33. BigBlueAL

    Well its settled, Bill Simmons thinks the Knicks are crazy to not do the deal because of Mozgov. Even with Mozgov included it is a totally fair deal apparently.

  34. iserp

    Could Walsh be playing into Denver’s game just to say no the last day and get Melo in FA with a friendlier contract?

    If they go, say no, and tell the world “Denver was asking for too much” they would save face. Knick fans might be upset with that decision, but most everyone would agree that we were giving too many players (even if the talent level going and coming is the same) and our team would be too thin.

    I just don’t believe Donnie is entertaining this kind of trade.

  35. Ben R

    It is a sad day to be a Knicks fan. We finally get our affairs in order and it lasts all of half a season before we make another boneheaded trade to get an overpaid “superstar”. Awesome. Go Knicks.

    This whole business has actually soured me on not only Melo but Amare as well. I with who ever said it earlier about the “redeem teamers” they have no class at all. Holding their teams hostage, openly making plans to join each other, sometimes with multiple years left on their contracts. It’s disgusting. I want no part of Melo and I’m starting to sour on Williams and Paul too. If you are on a team and sign a huge contract, commit to the team you’re on and don’t plan your exit strategy mid contract. Don’t convet other teams players, support your teammates, and support the fans that pay lots of money to support you. Show some character. Show some class. Gross.

  36. BigBlueAL

    Why the hell has this soured you on Amar’e?? He was not part of the “Redeem Team”. In fact during the season when the Knicks were on their hot streak Amar’e was quoted as saying the Knicks didnt need to make any moves which made headlines and apparently at that time “offended” Melo because Amar’e was making it seem like he didnt want Melo on the team.

    Amar’e lately has been politically correct with his comments about his teammates and Melo as he should be. Seeing him and LeBron dominating the 4th quarter of the All-Star game was great to see, kinda reminded me of the 1993 All-Star game when MJ and Ewing combined to sent the game into OT when Jordan drove and kicked it out to Ewing who hit a jumper. It was kinda nice seeing the best players in the NBA playing last night and a Knick was one of the standouts, something we havent seen here since the early to mid-90′s when Ewing was around.

    Amar’e is the least of the Knicks “problems” and I for one am more thrilled than ever to have him on this team.

  37. jaredrutledge

    as much as i hate the mere thought of isiah being involved with this, you have to take into account that melo IS a legitimate superstar. z-bo, jerome james, jared jeffries and the poo-poo platter gang never even sniffed the level melo plays at currently.

    also, advanced metrics are useful but you really do need two badasses to win in the playoffs. whatever you think of gallo and chandler, they are NOT badasses, guys with the ability to eviscerate another team if needed. amar’e has that gear, and so does melo.

    while the package is steep and i think donnie will hold the line somewhat, we can’t kid ourselves and think that this team has too much potential. of course we’re gonna be attached to this particular group of guys, but that’s just because we’ve suffered through the last ten years. if we can upgrade to two bonafide superstars, i suppose we should.

  38. Caleb

    @41 Possible… if Donnie is one thing, it’s a good negotiator. (As opposed to being, say, an elite judge of talent)

    another conspiracy theory: Donnie knows he’s leaving the Knicks and going to back to Indy this summer, so he goes along, signs the communique and steers one of his big rivals into a franchise-crippling trade. I’m just sayin’!

    Seriously, I think there are two big factors at play:

    1. As long as Anthony doesn’t sign an extension in New Jersey, the Knicks can sign him this summer while giving up almost nothing! They could clear as much cap space as they want to give him, by trading one or more of the same players who are in this supposed deal, keeping the others and getting back good draft picks in return. They know this, and Carmelo knows this. If he wants to be in New York, there’s no downside at all to entering free agency. (I guess he could be worried about injuring himself in the next 28 games, but if that were a real concern he would have signed the extension last summer). Since everyone knows the game, then unless Dolan is overruling sound judgment – and I agree with Mike, he probably isn’t – the offer is ridiculously high. All the stories are probably bull$%^&* plants and the final offer will be lower.

    Unless.. if…

    The reason NOT to lowball Denver completely, is…
    2. Walsh & Dolan think there’s a good chance the next CBA will include a franchise tag, or something similar, making it virtually impossible to bring in Anthony, Howard, Williams, Paul or any other high-end player. If they really think this is their last chance to do a big move, it would affect your calculus…

    I had sort of been dismissing the chances of #2, but if they make a trade like what’s been reported, I would be pretty worried about that.

  39. johnno

    Thank you for adding some sanity to the conversation jaredrutledge! Everyone seems to forget how good ‘Melo is. The guy is somewhere between the 5th and 15th best player in the NBA. If the Knicks get him, there will only be two teams in the league with a better 1-2 combination — the Heat and Lakers…and maybe the Thunder (and please don’t say the Celtics have a better 1-2 — at this point in their careers, Amare is as good or better than Garnett and ‘Melo is better than Pierce).
    I love Gallo and think that, in three years, he might be a borderline all-star, but even HE said that he will NEVER be as good as ‘Melo is now, and Chandler is gone at the end of this year anyway. Besides that, if you wait three years for guys to develop, Amare will not be as good as he is today. I think that the Knicks should draw the line with their current offer and, if they get ‘Melo and Billups for Felton, Chandler, Gallo, Curry and Randolph, that is a steal. Who cares about giving up draft picks that are likely to be in the 20′s? They can always buy picks in the 20′s in the future if they want them.

  40. Spree8nyk8

    Ben R: This whole business has actually soured me on not only Melo but Amare as well. I with who ever said it earlier about the “redeem teamers” they have no class at all. Holding their teams hostage, openly making plans to join each other, sometimes with multiple years left on their contracts. It’s disgusting..  

    Yeah, can’t really jump on board with you on that one. I really don’t see anything wrong with saying to someone you like playing with, ok, I can’t do anything for 3 years because I’m in a contract that I’m going to honor, but after that we should team up. I mean what is bad about that? Has Carmelo not played as hard as he should? I mean he’s putting up 50′s and 42′s pretty regularly isn’t he? Did he really do something bad by saying when his contract is over he’s going to leave? I mean if your a team with a star which would you rather be….The team with the star that makes you think he isn’t leaving and then does, or the team with the star that tells you a year in advance I’m gonna play hard this year, but after this year i’m gone. Shit man if I were a player I’d always wanted to know how much time everyone had left so I could see what was possible down the road. I just can’t see a single thing wrong with it.

  41. Owen

    “I assume we Knickerbloggers are in the vast minority, though, and that “get Melo at any cost” is the prevalent line of thinking among the mainstream masses of Knick fans, right?”

    Check out William rhoden”s column today. Cant post the link with my iphone. I think he articulates the mainstream view perfectly. I thought it was satire briefly but sadly he is totally serious.

  42. johnno

    Caleb — your concern #2 is very valid. It doesn’t matter what you, I, Walsh, D’Antoni, Dolan, Isiah or anyone else thinks that the new CBA will say. In his own words, ‘Melo thinks he is “screwed” if he doesn’t sign an extension now. Therefore, he is almost certain to cave and approve a deal with the Nets or Nuggets because HE thinks that he will be risking 10′s of millions of dollars. There is almost no chance that he will be available for the Knicks to sign this summer. Regarding Howard, Williams, Paul, etc., even if the Knicks can afford them, who says that they will want to come to the Knicks? Maybe they will, maybe not. So, you pass on a superstar because one of those guys might want to play for you a couple years from now?? Bad idea in my view.

  43. Spree8nyk8

    johnno: there will only be two teams in the league with a better 1-2 combination — the Heat and Lakers….  

    Really don’t care about the opinions of others on this but in my opinion calling the lakers a better 1-2 combination there is a bit of a stretch. The Heat I can see, although I think Melo and Amare will play off each other better than wade and bron do. W/B are basically the same player and they seldom seem to have awesome chemistry they just have a ton of ability which overcomes it. I think Melo and Amare will have a shot at actual chemistry.

  44. Caleb

    @51 well, Carmelo is a “superstar” in the sense that everyone calls him one, i.e. he is very famous. But no, I don’t think he is one of the best 20 or 25 players around. If he’s getting $20-million plus, he’s way overpaid.

    To me, the pro-Carmelo argument is, “he’s the best player available in the next few months, and if the rules change to limit movement of top players, he could be the best player available in the next few years.” (which would be sad for the NBA, but that’s another story).

    Still, I’d maybe rank him 25-40 for what he brings, and a little higher for his age and potential upside (I think he’s been dogging the last couple years). If that makes him, say, a top-20 “trade value” then it’s not a godawful deal. But it’s more likely than not, Knicks fans will regret it, and pretty soon.

    Anyway, if Carmelo panics and signs with the Nets… it’s not something I’d lose any sleep over. Why wouldn’t Williams, Howard, etc. want to come here? With no moves at all the Knicks are still a good young team… alreay in the playoffs, with four key guys age 21 or 22… Mosgov and a decent 1st-round pick… just doing nothing, I’d guess they go from 41-43 wins this year, to the high 40s next year… and that’s without a real center (FA or Mozgov coming on), or filling holes like backup PG. A big-time FA would see a 48-win team, a superstar already on board, New York stage, one player away from serious contention…

  45. Caleb

    @52 While Amare and Melo are both excellent players – or very good players, for you skeptics – I would say they are a bad match. They have the same favorite spots, they like their back to the basket and they don’t contribute much when they don’t have the ball.

    Melo is a terrific rebounder for a small forward, if those guys are on the court with a center, but I think his BIGGEST added value would be as the top scorer for the 12 minutes a game that Stoudemire is on the bench.

  46. Spree8nyk8

    Well personally I think he adds value by merely putting an end to teams “stop Amar’e and you stop the Knicks” defensive strategies. Any team that chooses to just lock down Amar’e we are going to struggle against. We win some of the games but they will always be super close games and if the shot isn’t flowing we could get crushed. At least now having Melo should open up Amar’e some. And having Amar’e should limit the extent you can trap on Melo. Idk I think they are going to mesh a good bit better than people think.

    And I’ve said it a dozen times this year, but I don’t think you can really overestimate the value of a player that WANTS to come to your team. He WANTS to be on the Knicks more than anything and personally I think that makes a bigger difference than other people will give credit for.

  47. latke

    Caleb: 2. Walsh & Dolan think there’s a good chance the next CBA will include a franchise tag,

    According to this Stern said that the franchise tag was off the table (though could possibly come back on the table). This to me is as close as you’ll get to confirmation that it ain’t happening.

    TDM: Gotta say, after this, I have profound respect for Prokhorov.  

    Yep, he’s done a nice job and has come off as the guy holding the strings of both Ujiri and NYK.

    Spree8nyk8: Yeah, can’t really jump on board with you on that one. I really don’t see anything wrong with saying to someone you like playing with, ok, I can’t do anything for 3 years because I’m in a contract that I’m going to honor, but after that we should team up.

    The problem IMO is not so much the fact that players discuss their futures. It’s that all this stuff leaks and people go nuts with it. And if it’s a weak week for news, sports journalists will just revive some rumor by offering anonymous sources.

  48. Owen

    Melo and amare are two of the best scorers in the NBA. And if we learned anything during the Isiah era it’s that the more scorers you have on the floor the better. Let the good times roll.

  49. Jafa

    If we trade all those players mentioned (Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, Felton, AR) for Melo and the team starts losing and falls out of the 6th seed, I’m booing Melo. Loudly. I don’t care. Basically, he is forcing us to give up all these guys for him, so he better show up and be superhuman and make us forget the contributions those guys were making (kind of like the way Amare has made us forget about DLee’s contributions – except for rebounding of course).

    And I think a lot of fans would boo him too. And the media will just rip him to shreds as being so money hungry that he cost the Knicks too much to get him.

  50. Jafa

    Owen: Melo and amare are two of the best scorers in the NBA. And if we learned anything during the Isiah era it’s that the more scorers you have on the floor the better. Let the good times roll.  

    Can we start chanting “Fire Isiah” again?

  51. Nick C.

    Owen: Melo and amare are two of the best scorers in the NBA. And if we learned anything during the Isiah era it’s that the more scorers you have on the floor the better. Let the good times roll.  
    Hahaha.

  52. latke

    Jafa:
    Can we start chanting “Fire Isiah” again?  

    Haha, this would be wonderful.

    Another fun irony would be if Walsh won GM of the year and Dolan didn’t renew his contract.

  53. New Guy

    Johnno, I get your point, but basketball is not about the best 1-2. KG and Pierce have Rondo, Allen, and Perkins, which is a helluva lot more than Billups, Fields, and Turiaf.

  54. Spree8nyk8

    The funny thing about the Melo situation is that the residents of this board use the fact that he wants to come here against him to ridiculous extents. If this was a chance to get a star that didn’t necessarily have the Knicks as a number 1 option these trade possibilities wouldn’t seem nearly as bad as they seem. Everyone looks at this as “we can get him for less” as opposed to “this trade is fair”. I don’t think there are many people that really think this trade is actually not a reasonable trade. But because you know he wants to be here you think we should be getting him for 3 magic beans or something. Denver wants fair value (which they cannot get) and the Knicks want to get melo with a coupon. Neither of those things are going to happen so this deal does for the most part meet in the middle.

    Get a grip and start looking at this from the standpoint of what you’d give up to get him if any team was in play. I mean hell our deal isn’t even the best deal on the table and we are still the favorites to get him. How often are we going to be in that good of a situation. And if we did pass on the deal how is that really going to set us up better for the future? The guys we have are going to cost more very soon (starting with WC). And these are not the guys that are going to swoon other better guys. Melo is though.

  55. Jafa

    Spree,

    Residents of the board generally don’t want Melo. We would rather have CP3, D12 or Deron Williams. For those three, we would happily give up the farm, and throw in Spike Lee if it made the deal work (just kidding, I like Spike). What compounds the situation for us is that we could get Melo in FA without giving up the pieces we will need to make a trade for those 3. Also, LBJ, Wade & Bosh have set the bar on how to build a championship contender – get 3 “super stars” who agree to take less money so you can surround them with competent players. Melo’s desire to have his $65 million at all costs goes contrary to that philosophy, which add to our issues. So the issues are:
    - Melo is not our first choice
    - Getting Melo could cost us the assets and cap space to get our first choice, even though it doesn’t have to
    - Melo is not following the blueprint laid out by the Southbeach boys

    That’s our problem with Melo.

  56. jaredrutledge

    if we have to include mozgov we definitely need to ink earl barron, and quick, for some center depth.

    my real worries with this trade are that billups currently plays six minutes a game less than felton. how will his 34 year old body hold up under d’antoni’s minutes?

    i’d go to war with this lineup, but it desperately lacks guard depth:
    PG: Billups / TD
    SG: Fields / Walker / TD
    SF: Melo / Williams
    PF: Amar’e
    C: Turiaf / Barron (Mozgov?)

    maybe we can keep mozgov. maybe azuibuike can contribute. maybe TD will learn how to pass.

  57. Z-man

    @53, I really don’t think of Amar’e as a back to the basket type of player. Once he catches, he almost always turns and faces up. One big difference is that Melo has the step-back fade-away in his arsenal, while Amar’e does not.

    Regarding not contributing much w/o the ball (I assume you mean offensively; on D, neither is a lock-down defender, but both are quick, strong, and big for their positions, Amar’e is an excellent shot-blocker and Melo is an excellent rebounder), I think that is also an overstatement. If you are commanding defensive attention and double-teams, you are contributing. If you are setting screens and rolling and opening things up for others, you are contributing. Amar’e's assists are up since coming here, so there is no reason to believe that Melo’s (career 3.0 per 36, higher in past years) won’t go up as well.

    Owen: Melo and amare are two of the best scorers in the NBA. And if we learned anything during the Isiah era it’s that the more scorers you have on the floor the better. Let the good times roll.  

    Really? you are comparing Amar’e and Melo to the players we had during the Isiah era? Which ones? Jamal? Eddy? Q? Zach? Francis? Marbury? I will agree that we are giving up too much for him, but of this crew, only Steph was in that class and he was a much bigger risk mentally.

    A fair floor-ceiling for Melo is Vince Carter – Paul Pierce. Melo’s stats are similar to both at the same stages in their respective careers. Obviously, if he turns out more like Carter, the trade is an abject bust. If he evolves the way that Pierce did, it’s a solid, if not great move.

  58. Frank O.

    I thought Gallo was a tough give, but was willing to accept it. If the trade includes Mosgov, I’m at critical mass.
    They would be overpaying a little with Gallo, a lot with Mosgov included.

    I’m more inclined than some folks here to say there is plenty of room for two scorers like Amare and Carmelo. Plenty of teams find shots for two superstars. I think the matching would work. But they would need a supporting cast. While I think Billups and Fields would be great, Billups is in his mid 30s, and he’s going to need a solid back up. Douglas isn’t that guy.
    I’m not sure Williams and Walker are the kind of guys that would carry us through a whole season. We once again would be left with Amare at C, out of position, which Turiaf backing him.
    They feel thin.
    And everything we are giving up is young.
    Mos is critical mass for me. I say at this point we do as some have said, tell them Melo isn’t worth this much.

  59. Frank O.

    But I think folks are wrong about Melo. I think the guy, playing in Mike D.’s offense, will be an efficient scorer. My two cents.

  60. Spree8nyk8

    Jafa: Spree,Residents of the board generally don’t want Melo..  

    Not saying I didn’t know this, just that you are in the minority, and you are wrong.

  61. latke

    Spree,

    My main concern is winning a championship. Whenever you trade youth for experience, you lose out on flexibility. Essentially, you are saying “this trade will get us close enough to being a contender that we will not need much more.”

    I just don’t buy that.

    Look at the teams that have won championships over the last 15 years:

    San Antonio lucked out with the David Robinson injury, giving up nothing to add Duncan. They also worked the draft, stealing Parker with the 28th pick and Ginobili with the 57th. This allowed them to keep guys like Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson, Bruce Bowen, Malik Rose, all of whom played important roles on Spurs championship teams. Without them, the Spurs may never have won.

    The Lakers acquired Shaq as a free agent and gave essentially Marc Gasol and bad contracts for Gasol. If, in 1997, they had included their 13th pick in the draft that year, they could never have drafted Kobe Bryant. If they’d given up Odom in the Gasol deal, no one would have said they gave up too much for Pau, but they would never have won a championship.

    The Pistons weren’t contenders until acquiring Rasheed Wallace. What did they give up for him? Bob Sura, Zeljko Rebraca and a 1st round pick. Billups came as a free agent. If they’d tossed the 22 year old rookie Tayshaun Prince into the sign and trade, they never would have won.

    Even Miami didn’t give up as much for Shaq as we are offering for Carmelo. Odom was not on a rookie contract anymore and was viewed at the time as another troubled but talented young player. At 23, Caron Butler only averaged 11 points and 6 rebounds per 36 minutes, far worse than either Gallinari or Chandler, let alone the myriad other assets we want to send to the rockies. If they’d included Haslem or J Williams in the trade, they likely never would have won, and IMO only won because of the referees.

  62. Mike Kurylo Post author

    Z-man: A fair floor-ceiling for Melo is Vince Carter – Paul Pierce. Melo’s stats are similar to both at the same stages in their respective careers. Obviously, if he turns out more like Carter, the trade is an abject bust. If he evolves the way that Pierce did, it’s a solid, if not great move.

    All 3 players at the same age:

    http://bkref.com/tiny/OoHUq

    Name – 3P%
    Vince – .387
    Pierce – .356
    Carmelo – .311

    Guess which player is going to have a lot more three point attempts in the coming years?

  63. Caleb

    @71 They are definitely comparable players… I would say Carmelo is a better offensive player, and Pierce is a much better defensive player (although I don’t really remember if that’s how it always was).

    NY Post reporting that Anthony might give a yes/no to the Nets today — and saying the answer is likely “nyet.”

    If that happens, and there are no other bidders, I don’t see how Donnie can possibly make the reported offer.

    It just doesn’t make sense – the risk of reducing the offer is almost non-existent. Carmelo would probably come to the Knicks in the summer on much better terms (for the Knicks), and if he didn’t, the team would still be good and would have a load of options for improvement.

  64. Z-man

    What separates Pierce and Carter is 1) physicality (Carter more of a 3-pt/slasher big guard, Pierce more of a post-up big SF) and 2) mental toughness. Optimistically, I think Melo is more like Pierce…big, tough, unfazed by pressure, etc. Amar’e has shown leadership skills beyond what we expected and at least talks a good defensive game. He should have a big enough stature to command Melo’s respect and if Melo responds, there is no reason to believe that he can’t be a better defensive player, maybe not as good as Pierce, but above average.

  65. Caleb

    @72 It will be interesting to see how MDA uses Carmelo, if he comes… might the coach adapt by not insisting his new guy launch 3s? Worth noting that Carmelo was great in the Olympics, under MDA. (where 3-point line is shorter, of course — but MDA and Coach K found a way to get him the right shots).

    Part of the Pierce/Carter comparison is longevity… both those guys have aged relatively well. (yes, even Carter – he’s not as good as he was, but he’s 34 – that’s old for a SG). Carmelo’s lack of outside shot will hurt him there. But he makes up for it with his size – he’ll have years of playing the 4, when his quickness is gone.

  66. Z-man

    Mike Kurylo:
    All 3 players at the same age:http://bkref.com/tiny/OoHUqName – 3P%
    Vince – .387
    Pierce – .356
    Carmelo – .311Guess which player is going to have a lot more three point attempts in the coming years?  

    Two things:
    1. Melo always took less 3′s than the other guys
    2. In the last 4 years, Melo has shot 3′s reasonably well in 3 of them, and is shooting .333 this year despite all the pressures on him.

  67. David Crockett

    My takeaway from all this Melo-drama is the utter stupidity of (the discourse from) “mainstream” sports media, including columnists, so-called insiders, and former players. It’s not the fact of their drivel so much as the degree… and the wide array of its proponents. Almost everybody, it seems, is on board.

    Did no one learn a damned thing from the Thomas era Knicks about how there’s more to building a team than walking away from a trade with the most talent? Fundamentally, the oh-so-superior media didn’t like Thomas personally but they really didn’t disagree with his approach to building a team as much as they claimed. The national talking heads can’t see any difference between “role players” Landry Fields and Boobie Gibson. A lot of their anti-Thomas snark looks like petty high school “mean girls” crap now that many of the snarkiest columnists are driving the “‘Melo at any cost” bandwagon.

    Carmelo Anthony doesn’t get NY closer to a title if he comes at the cost of useful depth and the flexibility to add another critical piece.

  68. New Guy

    Spree8nyk8: Get a grip and start looking at this from the standpoint of what you’d give up to get him if any team was in play..  

    That’s the argument everyone in the media seems to be making, but
    I dont see other teams in play. You’re basically saying: “make believe you don’t have leverage, and give up more than you need to.”

    Why is that, exactly?

  69. Z-man

    “Carmelo Anthony doesn’t get NY closer to a title if he comes at the cost of useful depth and the flexibility to add another critical piece.”

    Unless you believe that CP3 or D-Will will be more likely to come here specifically because of Melo…

  70. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/feltora01.html

    I want to rescind my comment from a couple months ago that I was wrong about the Felton signing. Dude’s got nearly the same identical stats as last year, suggesting, albeit inconclusively, that his going from the slow, grinding style of the Bobcats to the 7SoL did absolutely nothing for his game.

    There are people out there who really think that Carmelo’s going to start having 3-4 more open looks per game from 3-point land and suddenly start shooting 40% from behind the arc.

    Crockett is right: it’s better to walk away with better players than better talent. And even though Billups is a much better point guard than anyone we’ve had for years, it also means taking on a huge contract and giving up tons of assets, another move that smacks of the Isiah era. Hope you’re all ready to watch some losing basketball for awhile.

  71. bobneptune

    Spree8nyk8: Get a grip and start looking at this from the standpoint of what you’d give up to get him if any team was in play.I mean hell our deal isn’t even the best deal on the table and we are still the favorites to get him.

    i honestly have never understood this meme in the media that the nyets deal is such a haul.

    if we eliminate the point guard swap with both deals and the crap/expirings, you get:

    nyets deal = 4 #1 picks (one lottery from nyets and 3 in the late teens to laker’s 30th) plus favors for melo.

    nix deal = chandler and gallo’s 23 and 22 yr old 16.5 ppg’s on the rise plus mosgov (whose last 10 games stats are way better than favors and you can look that up) plus nix 2014 #1 plus a #1 from utah or memphis (through mn) for melo.

    what on earth makes anyone who has seen him play think favors is the second coming. he can’t beat out a journeyman like kris humphries 2/3rd of the way through his rookie season. he has just as good a chance of being a high #1 bust like adam morrison, thabeet, sheldon williams or tyrus thomas than shawn kemp.

    honestly, does anyone see him as better than michael beasley?

    what if those wonderful #1 picks turn out like the last time the nix had 3 mid first rounders? remember walter mc carty, john wallace and dont’e ones???

    i lol in your general direction if you think favors and 2 net first rounders are far superior to 3 starting nba players (mosgov, chandler and gallo) on a winning nba team, all under 24.

  72. d-mar

    Carmelo Anthony doesn’t get NY closer to a title if he comes at the cost of useful depth and the flexibility to add another critical piece.  

    I asked this before on this forum and didn’t hear any answers – if in 2012 CP3 or D-Will wants to come here and join Stat and Melo, can Stat and Melo voluntarily take a pay cut to make it work under the cap? I know that sounds implausible, but it would sort of be what LBJ and Wade did to get Bosh, except obviously those were new contracts. Any thoughts?

  73. Caleb

    d-mar: can Stat and Melo voluntarily take a pay cut to make it work under the cap? I   

    No, under CBA players are not allowed to renegotiate. (Union would never allow this – obvious opportunity for teams to strongarm players into “voluntary” renegotiation.

    btw, interesting note on LeBron/Wade/Bosh – while they left some dollars on the table, when you factor in that Florida has no income tax they are actually not making any less than they would have gotten in New York, New Jerseyor Chicago.

  74. New Guy

    @82: impossible to answer until the next CBA is negotiated. But I believe under the current CBA teams are prohibited from reducing a players salary. If the NBA gets an NFL like system, then it could be possible.

  75. bobneptune

    Z-man: “Carmelo Anthony doesn’t get NY closer to a title if he comes at the cost of useful depth and the flexibility to add another critical piece.”Unless you believe that CP3 or D-Will will be more likely to come here specifically because of Melo…  

    do you cp3 or howard or d-will are coming to the knicks for 11 million per year while mello and amare are making >20? that what the nix will have to offer with a completely stripped down roster and cap holds in the summer of 2012.

    if you believe that, i have molly the unicorn selling her golden eggs right around the corner, sir…..

  76. New Guy

    *possible but very unlikely. David stern views this sort of thing as cap shenanigans, along the lines of the old chris dudley trick, so it is highly unlikely that will become possible.

    BTW, how funny is that? The Trail Blazers came up with the most brilliant way to circumvent the salary cap, and then wasted it on Chris Dudley!

  77. afrikan_hermis

    Robert Silverman: Sometimes the best trades are the ones you never make.  

    @15 WELL SAID. Now my man, the MOZgovernor, will be the judge to explain to the fans why we pulled out of this deal in the eleventh hour to not only save our franchise but also frustrate the other Russian’s shenanigans, OR hopefully get Denver to frantically kiss our last offer “in the sand”. Either way, my man the MOZgovernor will be our savior now and in the future. Now if only Walsh could bring Hakeem on board to teach POST MOVES for the team, as I have been chiming this all the time, it will be great. He did that for Kobe and Howard. And he can also do double duty as defensive coordinator. Also the added plus if we get Denver to bite our deal is that Billups will force Mike D’anphoni to play 1/2 court offense so crucial in the playoffs.

  78. Frank O.

    Caleb: @72 It will be interesting to see how MDA uses Carmelo, if he comes… might the coach adapt by not insisting his new guy launch 3s? Worth noting that Carmelo was great in the Olympics, under MDA. (where 3-point line is shorter, of course — but MDA and Coach K found a way to get him the right shots).
    Part of the Pierce/Carter comparison is longevity… both those guys have aged relatively well. (yes, even Carter – he’s not as good as he was, but he’s 34 – that’s old for a SG). Carmelo’s lack of outside shot will hurt him there. But he makes up for it with his size – he’ll have years of playing the 4, when his quickness is gone.  

    Billups also thrived under the D’antoni system.

  79. David Crockett

    Z-man: “Carmelo Anthony doesn’t get NY closer to a title if he comes at the cost of useful depth and the flexibility to add another critical piece.”Unless you believe that CP3 or D-Will will be more likely to come here specifically because of Melo…  

    I don’t. Not if you’ve given up all your flexibility.

  80. New Guy

    Bill Simmons, btw, is a complete tool with his recent tweets insulting us Knick fans:

    sportsguy33 I take back the Mozgov jokes – the more I look at it, I don’t see how the Knicks would replace his 4 pts + 3 rebs a game.

    Hmm, what was Kendrick Perkins averaging 4 yes ago? 4 pts + 5 rebs. In his 4th year in the league! Was Rondo anywhere close to the level Gallo and Chandler currently are? No.

    How would you feel, in retrospect Bill, if you had thrown those two into the Garnett deal? Your C’s would have won nothing. NOTHING!

  81. Caleb

    re: standing pat, here’s a fun player comparison. Anthony Randolph at age 20. (I put in last year’s numbers because he’s barely played this year. He was just as good his rookie season, in more minutes, but I didn’t want to include that because it’s two years old and there are so few 19-year-olds, thought it would be more random).

    But, how many 20-year-olds have:
    a. Played more than 700 minutes (AR=749)
    b. Scored more than a point every two minutes? (AR=.5/min)
    c. Had a TS% better than 51 (AR=52.1)
    d. Had a rebound rate better than 15 (AR=16)
    e. Blocked more than 1.8 shots per 36 minutes (AR=2.45)

    It’s a doozy of a list - although #21 and #22 stand out like Wilt Chamberlain on stage with the Russian ballet:

    Shaquille O’Neal, Dwight Howard, Chris Webber, Elton Brand, Andris Biedrins, Amare Stoudemire, Brook Lopez, Kevin Love, Andrew Bynum, DeJuan Blair, Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka, Greg Monroe, Amir Johnson, ZaZa Pachulia, Al Jefferson, Tyrus Thomas, Shawn Kemp, Anthony Randolph, DeAndre Jordan, Jackie Butler and Robert Swift.

  82. Caleb

    ok, here’s Randolph at age 19. Compared to age 20, he played more (no injuries), rebounded a little more but scored less and less efficiently. I tweaked the parameters so he’d qualify.

    How many 19-year-olds have:
    a. Played more than 1000 minutes (AR=1127)
    b. Scored more than 16 points per 40 minutes (AR=17.7)
    c. Had a TS% better than 50 (AR=50.6)
    d. Had a rebound rate better than 15 (AR=17.5)
    e. Blocked more than 1.8 shots per 36 minutes (AR=2.36)

    Answer: Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Cliff Robinson, Andris Biedrins, Derrick Favors and Anthony Randolph.

  83. Owen

    Pierce and melo are a good comparison. Does anyone think Paul Pierce is the kind of guy, at any point in his career, that you would want to pay a max contract and trade the farm for?

    Pierce is the third best player on the celts by a large margin. And the key to that team is garnett and rondos ridiculously small contract. The lesson to be drawn from their success is find a great young player and lock him up long term way below market, not grossly overpay for a one dimensional third banana. (although pierce has a far more multifaceted game than melo)

  84. d-mar

    @93 That is idiotic of Simmons, the point is not whether Mozgov makes or breaks the deal, the point is the Knicks have to stop the madness and tell Denver “Enough!” So they say OK to Mozgov, and then Denver comes back and says “Oh, we also want Fields”

    I really really really can’t wait for this to be over, and get back to commenting on actual basketball games!

  85. Caleb

    Gallo at age 22 (this year). A weird list! Surprisingly short…

    How many 22-year-olds have:
    a. Played more than 1500 minutes (Gallo=1670, so far)
    b. Scored more than 16 points per 40 minutes (Gallo=18.3)
    c. Had a TS% better than 58 (Gallo=60.3)
    d. Had a rebound rate WORSE than 10 (Gallo=7.7)
    e. Had an assist rate WORSE than 15 (to weed out the PGs) (Gallo=10.6)

    Answer: Ronnie Brewer, Andre Iguodala, Kevin Martin and Danilo Gallinari.

  86. New Guy

    Allow me to take this further, if you will.

    The C’s got Allen for Jeff Green

    They got Garnett for Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, and Seb Telfair. (MIN wanted Rondo, but Boston refused and made them take Telfair).

    KG was willing to go to ANY team in the league.

    The equivalent of what BS is telling Knicks fans is a fair trade today would be Boston back in 07 offering Jeff Green, Rondo, and Al Jefferson for Garnett, then being told they had to throw in Perkins (which is an equally “fair trade”).

    That would have made the 07/08 Celtics:

    F Garnett
    F Pierce
    C Powe
    G Telfair
    G Tony Allen

    So you might want to rethink your position, BS. You don’t win a title by making a “fair trade”. Show me a champion who made a “fair trade” to get the centerpiece of their team?

    Lakers w Gasol? Not even close
    Celtics w Garnett? That trade was criminal
    Heat w Shaq? Seems close, but really isn’t
    Pistons w Wallace? Nyet
    Any Spurs team? They developed their own
    Lakers dynasty? Yeah Divac for Kobe was fair.
    Bulls? Not sure they even made trades.
    Rockets? Got Clyde Drexler for Otis Thorpe, ffs.

    I can keep on going back to the 80′s and all the ridiculous trades that got the Celtics and Lakers dynasties built, but whats the point.

    YOU DONT WIN TITLES BY GUTTING YOUR TEAM TO MAKE A FAIR TRADE.

    You’d think he’d know ghat, having written a book of basketball and all.

  87. danvt

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/sports/basketball/21rhoden.html

    I’m thinking about drinking the cool aid on this one. Can’t help but think we become a better team with Melo and Billups over Gallo and Felton. Tough to take as a fan, this deal, because we’re not giving up just one guy that makes you wistful (Gallo), but basically everyone we’ve been rooting for. I mean, when the Giants won the Superbowl in 2007 it was David Tyree making the catch. We didn’t trade for Randy Moss, we beat him. So, I’d rather see Gallo develop to be better than Melo, but, I just don’t see it becoming reality.

    The thing I’m missing from all the haters on this board is any alternative. I mean, is Tyson Chandler coming this summer if this deal doesn’t come through? Would that be better then what’s on the table? The thing the mainstream media definitely seems to be missing is that they seem to think this is our last and only chance to improve. I don’t agree with that, but, I haven’t heard a lot of opining with regard to alternatives to this deal that might help the team more. If we stand pat, I’d be nervous that the 76ers slip past us for the 6th seed.

  88. Tyler Murray

    You guys see this one yet? Pretty frustrating perspective.

    http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2011/02/the_knicks_are_likely_to_end_u.html

    If the report about Melo giving the Nets an answer (“no thanks”) today is true, then I think Donnie should pull Gallo out of the trade. We’ve said for a while that the Knicks should just offer Pick/Az/Curry/Other garbage because Denver has no other choice.

    And yeah, it definitely sounds like Melo’s top priority is signing the extension…but if the Nuggets don’t trade him, what other choice does HE have?

    a.) Sign the extension to stay in Denver or b.) become a free agent and sign wherever, right?

    And he shouldn’t be offended by NY not getting the deal done like O’Connor reported…I think they’ve offered WAY more than what they had originally planned (i.e. Felton and Gallo), but the Nuggets just aren’t budging.

  89. johnno

    Have any of you checked out any of the Nuggets blogs? The prevailing view is that, even with Mozgov in the deal, the Knicks are robbing the Nuggets blind. Guys, ‘Melo is a superstar, plain and simple. If the Knicks can get him and don’t have to throw Mozgov into the deal, they can make a lot of noise in the playoffs THIS YEAR — with two rookies in the starting lineup. Will they beat the Heat or Celtics? Probably not, but they will give the Hawks, Magic and Bulls fits. And what if Fields and Mozgov improve next year, they make a good draft pick (probably around the #18 or so pick this year) and they sign one or two low-priced veteran contributors this off-season? They suddenly become very solid contenders in the East next year. Remember, they got Fields and Mozgov for essentially nothing this year. What if a DuJuan Blair or Big Baby Davis type fall into their hands in this year’s draft? Both were solid contributors in their rookie years. Or what if a Mark Jackson (a#18 pick) or Rajon Rondo (a #23 pick, right after Renaldo Balkman–ouch!!) fall to them? This is not the last move that they will ever make. I trust Knicks management to figure out ways to improve the team unless, of course, Isiah comes back…

  90. BG

    Caleb do you really think Melo is not a top 25 player in the league ? I agree that we are giving up two much but I have watched a lot of Melo’s game over the years. He is a player who puts tons of pressure on the opposing team by constantly attacking the hoop. he gets to the line and can dominate threes in the post. I know he is not a great three point shooter but can absolutely hit from their. To me his combination of speed and power make him one of the toughest matchups in the NBA. I understand the arguement of questionable shot selection at times but when he gets to the garden he will be motivated and I think his play will show all the nonbelivers on this site that he is worth 20 million just like Amare was.

  91. latke

    The reason the gallo list is so short is because his TS% is elite. For his career, he is higher than Shaq (#38 al time) and Ginobili (#32 all time) and below David Lee, # 30 all time. Of the 8 active players above Gallinari, only two play on the perimeter (Nash and Martin).

    The list is restricted to players who have scored 5,000 career points (about 5 seasons worth of points at 15 ppg with a few games missed), so Gallo’s not on it yet.

  92. johnno

    By the way, Pierce and ‘Melo is a great comparison. I think that they are very similar players and that, at age 26, Pierce was a superstar — one of the most unerrated players in the league.

  93. New Guy

    I feel for Nuggets fans, I really do. But their boy f’d them over. Even if they only end up with Chandler, Randolph, and Corey Brewer, they should consult with Cleveland and Toronto for sympathy.

  94. d-mar

    If Melo gives a firm “nyet” to the Nyets today, as some are reporting, then he’s obviously giving the Knicks a huge boost in negotiating leverage, but the risk to him is that the Knicks go back to a lowball offer, Denver gets pissed, lets the deadline come and go, Melo plays out the season and becomes a FA, which it sounds like he doesn’t want. But if you’re Denver, if the Knicks are the only player, can you turn down a deal just out of spite and end up with nothing this summer? If I were the Knicks, I’d take Gallo out of the deal and say take it or leave it.

  95. Z-man

    Owen: Pierce and melo are a good comparison. Does anyone think Paul Pierce is the kind of guy, at any point in his career, that you would want to pay a max contract and trade the farm for?Pierce is the third best player on the celts by a large margin. And the key to that team is garnett and rondos ridiculously small contract. The lesson to be drawn from their success is find a great young player and lock him up long term way below market, not grossly overpay for a one dimensional third banana. (although pierce has a far more multifaceted game than melo)  

    Yes, I think Pierce is that kind of guy.

  96. New Guy

    @99: alternative if Melo isn’t available this summer:

    Resign Chandler to a reasonable deal. Spend part of cap space wisely on a big like Kendrick Perkins or DeAndre Jordan (no way I overpay Chandler, and I think Gasol will cost to much). Pick up the option on Walker. Use our draft pick wisely.

    Sign a backup PG. Go into next season with:

    F Stoudemire
    F Gallinari
    C Perkins/Jordan
    G Felton
    G Fields

    Bench: Chandler, Turiaf, Randolph, Douglas, Walker, backup PG, plus our draft pick.

    And most importantly, WAIT until the RIGHT trade or free agent is available. Put Chris Paul or Deron Williams in that lineup and it looks pretty good, no?

  97. Brian Cronin

    I think Pierce is a fine comparison, and like Owen noted, if Paul Pierce was 26 and telling everyone that he wouldn’t sign with anyone but one team, there is no way he would net the Celtics this great of a haul.

    As lots of people have noted, in the history of the NBA, there has basically been one trade of a star player where the other team got remotely fair value, and that was a player who was under contract and coming off of leading his team to the NBA Finals. And that was Shaquille O’Neal.

    History shows us tons and tons of players who were dealt when their team had much more leverage than the Nuggets did, and got far, far less in return for their star player.

    Pau Gasol is a better player than Carmelo Anthony and there was basically no leverage against his team, and they gave up basically a second round pick (which did work out really well for them, admittedly). Hmmm…I think we should probably eliminate Gasol, as that trade was just too dumb.

    Okay, Garnett. Also better than Melo, but also older. Still, that trade got done for less than the Knicks are offering. The equivalent would have been if the Wolves had insisted on Rondo (which they did originally) and the Celtics caved in. Again, the Wolves did not have to trade KG. He was signed for two more years.

    Wilt Chamberlain is probably a good example. He said he would only go to one of the big markets, and as a result, the Sixers got absolute garbage for him.

    Charles Barkley, in his prime, was acquired for Jeff Hornaceck, Tim Perry and Andrew Lang! The best player was Hornaceck, who was 29 at the time of the trade!

    Here, the Nuggets don’t have much leverage, and they’re somehow getting more than everyone else? It doesn’t make sense. This isn’t Lebron James here.

  98. Brian Cronin

    By the way, when Pierce was on the trade block back around 2005 (when the Celtics started to rebuild and he wasn’t exactly thrilled with being on a rebuilding team – this was when they dealt Walker and let Payton leave), the names being bandied about for him were very good players, but just that one very good player. You know, like a Lamar Odom or a Joe Johnson or hell, there were rumors about the Blazers getting him with their #6 pick in the 2005 Draft (that one sounded bogus to me at the time, though, so I doubt it was true).

  99. cgreene

    New Guy: @99: alternative if Melo isn’t available this summer:Resign Chandler to a reasonable deal.Spend part of cap space wisely on a big like Kendrick Perkins or DeAndre Jordan (no way I overpay Chandler, and I think Gasol will cost to much).Pick up the option on Walker.Use our draft pick wisely.Sign a backup PG.Go into next season with:F Stoudemire
    F Gallinari
    C Perkins/Jordan
    G Felton
    G FieldsBench: Chandler, Turiaf, Randolph, Douglas, Walker, backup PG, plus our draft pick.And most importantly, WAIT until the RIGHT trade or free agent is available.Put Chris Paul or Deron Williams in that lineup and it looks pretty good, no?  

    great point. so that means we are looking at 1st rd exit in 2011 and the best case scenario 2nd rd exit in 2012. because that team ain’t much better than this team and this team is struggling to hold a 6 seed. sorry. but the melo deal plus whatever dw can fill in is better than the team you just listed and still gives us a lot of flexibilty in 2012

  100. latke

    danvt: , I haven’t heard a lot of opining with regard to alternatives to this deal that might help the team more. If we stand pat, I’d be nervous that the 76ers slip past us for the 6th seed.  

    1st of all, who gives a crap if the sixers pass us. We aren’t winning or even advancing in the playoffs this year, so it doesn’t matter.

    As far as alternatives go, here’s what I would do if ‘Melo ends up extending elsewhere and assuming all potential trade partners demand too much.

    1) THIS SEASON: Play Anthony Randolph at least 10 minutes every game. If he’s terrible, then you lose out on that late first rounder that minnesota was offering for him. Boo hoo. If he shows signs, he might be our answer at power forward, and we can sign and trade Wilson Chandler.
    2) THIS SUMMER: Let’s say Randolph doesn’t prove ready to take over at power forward. I’d go as high as $8 million/year for Chandler. If he gets a higher offer, sign and trade him. Let’s say we get a 1st round pick in the Chandler deal. Sign Arron Afflalo to an offer sheet at around $8-9 million. Denver will most likely match. This is part of the plan. Now that they’ve committed to Afflalo, are they also willing to pay Nene? They did, after all, give up Camby for some hot pockets over financial concerns. We offer to throw Randolph or Mozgov their way as part of a sign and trade. We also send them $3 million.

    Now we have a starting lineup of Nene, Amare, Gallinari, Fields, Felton. That’s already a big improvement over last year and IMO nearly as good a lineup as Mozgov, Amare, Carmelo, Fields, Billups. We also save about $8 million dollars in 2012 cap space. We should win somewhere between 48-52 games, and guess what? When D Williams and CP3make it clear their leaving, we actually have a few assets we can toss their way. We’re also under the cap, allowing us to offer those teams immediate…

  101. KnicksFanInVA

    Didn’t Seattle trade Ray Allen to Boston for the trade rights to Jeff Green and filler?

    I know Melo is better than Ray Allen, but still. Just seems like we are getting hosed for no reason.

  102. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, that’s basically my point. The Sonics made that deal because they decided they wanted to rebuild around Kevin Durant. Fair enough, but it was their decision, so they had a goodly amount of leverage. The downside was that they had an older player making a lot of money. So the offer was not awful, but the key was that the Sonics had plenty of leverage and chose to take a draft pick and salary cap filler for one of the best shooters in the NBA.

    Heck, Kevin Martin is amazing, and he was just acquired last year for Carl Landry, for crying out loud!

  103. Caleb

    Wilson Chandler at age 23…

    How many 23-year-olds have:
    a. Played more than 1700 minutes (Chandler=1759, so far)
    b. Scored more than 18 points per 40 minutes (Chandler=19.1)
    c. Had a TS% between 53 and 56 (Chandler=54.8)
    d. Had a rebound rate between 9 and 11 (Chandler=9.7)
    e. Blocked more than 1.2 shots per 36 minutes (Chandler=1.43)

    Answer: Glenn Robinson, Rashard Lewis, Jeff Green, Eddie Johnson, Bob Dandridge, Mark Aguirre, Derrick McKey, Clyde Drexler, Thurl Bailey, Andrea Bargnani, Rodney Rogers, Corliss Williamson, Louis Orr and Wilson Chandler.

    A better – and burlier – list than I would have guessed. Although, if you set an upper limits for points/minute, you eliminate Aguirre and Eddie Johnson, which makes a lot more sense.

  104. Brian Cronin

    By the way, Simmons’ position is just utterly bizarre. Only a few days ago he was predicting the Knicks getting Melo without including Gallo, the 2014 pick or Mozgov.

    Now he thinks a deal with all of those added pieces is a no-brainer?

  105. Z

    The Gasol trade isn’t a good comp. Memphis didn’t want Gasol because they didn’t want to pay him. Denver wants to keep Carmelo.

    Garnett is a good comp. Star in (or close) to his prime asking to leave. As I recall he was picky about where he’d extend too, nagging several deals the wolves had in place (Phoenix, Atlanta, and even Boston once several weeks before he finally agreed). That should be the standard for “fair trade” we’re expected to meet.

  106. Frank O.

    danvt: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/sports/basketball/21rhoden.htmlI’m thinking about drinking the cool aid on this one.Can’t help but think we become a better team with Melo and Billups over Gallo and Felton.Tough to take as a fan, this deal, because we’re not giving up just one guy that makes you wistful (Gallo), but basically everyone we’ve been rooting for.I mean, when the Giants won the Superbowl in 2007 it was David Tyree making the catch.We didn’t trade for Randy Moss, we beat him.So, I’d rather see Gallo develop to be better than Melo, but, I just don’t see it becoming reality.The thing I’m missing from all the haters on this board is any alternative.I mean, is Tyson Chandler coming this summer if this deal doesn’t come through?Would that be better then what’s on the table?The thing the mainstream media definitely seems to be missing is that they seem to think this is our last and only chance to improve.I don’t agree with that, but, I haven’t heard a lot of opining with regard to alternatives to this deal that might help the team more.If we stand pat, I’d be nervous that the 76ers slip past us for the 6th seed.  

    Why am I shocked that Rhoden takes such a simplistic stance. I mean, ppg as a measure?
    I think Melo will be a great player for the Knicks because the system will make him more efficient.
    But ppg is ridiculous as a measure.

  107. Brian Cronin

    The Gasol trade isn’t a good comp.

    No, I agree. That’s why I said we should probably eliminate it. That trade was just too absurd. The KG one is probably the best comparison, and the Knicks are giving up more than the Celtics did.

  108. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin: By the way, Simmons’ position is just utterly bizarre. Only a few days ago he was predicting the Knicks getting Melo without including Gallo, the 2014 pick or Mozgov.
    Now he thinks a deal with all of those added pieces is a no-brainer?  

    Simmons is a Boston fan. He’s not an objective observer, ever, when considering the Knicks or the Jets. Personnally, I think he’s trying to contribute to the pressure on the Knicks to give up the farm.

  109. Brian Cronin

    Whenever you link to Twitter, note that they are putting in these # signs into the middle of the link to make it unlinkable. I do not know why, but that’s what they’re doing. So just remove the # before you post the link and it works.

  110. Caleb

    @103, no I don’t think he’s a top 25 player… I would put him as one of the top-15 scorers, maybe top-10… but he is a below average defender, not much of a playmaker, ok to good as a rebounder (depending what position he’s at).

    I think you can see it in Denver, where he actually has a pretty good group of teammates – it’s not Garnett in Minnesota. The Nuggets have the best offensive rating in the league but are no one’s idea of a contender.

    I think if you started with Billups, Nene and a deep rotation… and added someone who really was a top-10 player… you would have a 55-60 win team. Not saying it’s Melo’s “fault,” but he’s been there 7-8 years and if he was that kind of impact player you’d have seen it.

  111. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin: Whenever you link to Twitter, note that they are putting in these # signs into the middle of the link to make it unlinkable. I do not know why, but that’s what they’re doing. So just remove the # before you post the link and it works.  

    The # (hash marks) in twitter also help link up twitter posts for people who wish to see tweets of a certain kind. If you were tracking the Egyptian uprising you used #egypt or #tahrir or #jan25.
    It’s the way it works.

  112. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, I just saw Simmons call Melo a “Top 12″ player and I was taken aback. No way is he a Top 12 player in the NBA.

    I would rank him probably a bit higher than you, Caleb, but roughly 20th.

    Which is still really good, of course, but the only guys I’d be cool with the Knicks just emptying the roster for would be guys in the Top 5, guys like Lebron, Chris Paul and Kevin Durant.

  113. danvt

    So, if the deal happens, I guess, we pick up Earl Baron and then Turiaf and him split time at C when Amar’e isn’t playing there? Melo takes Danillo’s spot. Sean Williams gets Chandlers minutes? Billups for Felton. What do we gain / lose?

  114. KnicksFanInVA

    I would really really hate to lose Gallo. I’m going to get killed for saying this, but I would rather lose a few games with Gallo than win a few more with Melo :(

  115. New Guy

    cgreene:
    great point.so that means we are looking at 1st rd exit in 2011 and the best case scenario 2nd rd exit in 2012.because that team ain’t much better than this team and this team is struggling to hold a 6 seed.sorry.but the melo deal plus whatever dw can fill in is better than the team you just listed and still gives us a lot of flexibilty in 2012  

    1) I don’t rate the best case scenario for a Melo/Amare team surrounded by whatever quality D-Leaguers Miami hasn’t already plucked better than the one you described for that team.

    2) You have an unrealistic notion about how much flexibility we’d have in 2012. It’s less flexibility than the scenario I put forth.

  116. Brian Cronin

    Isn’t it hilarious that Anthony Carter has been on the Nuggets long enough to have Bird Rights? That just sounds wrong for him to be on a team for this long at this point in his career.

  117. NateRobinson

    I don’t get what Denver’s doing at this point. I just don’t…

    They keep raising the asking price from the Knicks, negotiating with the Nets with the sheer purpose of getting more from Dolan but…

    The Knicks have apparently made the final offer so I do not know why they keep insisting on asking for more when Melo is being run out of town by them.

    What exactly is our offer? I’ve heard its something like this am I right?

    Gallo/Fields
    Chandler
    Eddy Curry
    Felton
    2014 First rounder? Is it ours? Or is it the Minny pick for AR?

  118. Brian Cronin

    If I ever did an Unsung Miami Heat History bit (which I won’t), Carter would be part of a major one – how his agent screwing up led to the Heat having enough cap room to sign Odom which led to them having Odom available to trade to LA for Shaq. So one little screw-up by Carter’s agent led to the Heat’s first NBA championship. Hmmm…everyone knows that story, right? I wonder if it is obscure enough to work as a Sports Legend Revealed.

  119. New Guy

    Z: The Gasol trade isn’t a good comp. Memphis didn’t want Gasol because they didn’t want to pay him. Denver wants to keep Carmelo.Garnett is a good comp. Star in (or close) to his prime asking to leave. As I recall he was picky about where he’d extend too, nagging several deals the wolves had in place (Phoenix, Atlanta, and even Boston once several weeks before he finally agreed). That should be the standard for “fair trade” we’re expected to meet.  

    I agree.

    And that standard was:

    - One quality young player at same position the star plays (Jefferson…Chandler)
    - One talented head case (Gerald Green…Randolph)
    - Garbage (Telfair…I don’t know if we have an equivalent)

    Now Jefferson is better than Chandler, so I can see sweetening the pot, but this is too much.

  120. KnicksFanInVA

    The thing that really irritates me is that just because Melo wants to come here, doesn’t mean we should do whatever it takes to get him. If he wants to come, it can be on our terms.

    That’s like a really hot girl you’ve had a crush on for years finally wants you. But she fails to see that you’re already with someone! It doesn’t mean you should break up with your current g/f just because the hot one wants you know.

  121. Tyler Murray

    Thanks for the html help guys.

    I don’t know who to trust anymore, except you guys, Alan Hahn, and not Ian O’Connor.

    I’ve obviously wanted this deal to get done (or nixed) ASAP so the Knicks could have time to look at trade deadline alternatives. It’s no secret they still need a 1 and a 5….but if the Knicks agree to this Melo malarkey, will they even have time or players left to try to fill those needs?

  122. Z

    Also, for those saying Melo wanting to play in NY is a positive, there is always the chance that comfort breeds complacency, no? If he plays in the city he wants, for the money he wants, with the wife he wants, is there anything else to motivate him (especially if he’s on a team that can’t beat the Heat until 2016?)?

  123. ww007

    I think this trade is dumb not because I don’t think Melo is a good or even great player. But we would definitely be giving up waaaayyyy too much. Do people really think Melo’s gonna sign an extension with the Nets??? I say let NJ waste their players and have him for a year; we’ll just pick him up next year.

    I think people are losing focus here… of course under the usual circumstances, you would give up a heck of a lot to get a guy like Melo. Sure, Gallo, Chandler, AR, and Curry is a fair trade or maybe even a little in our favor if both teams are on level playing fields. But look, THIS IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. WE HAVE ALL THE LEVERAGE AND DENVER HAS NONE. Why the hell would you give up all that if you hold all the chips??? Makes no sense… And Denver is playing Dolan for the fool that he is: they are testing the waters and keep asking more and more to see how much they can get away with. Add Mosgov? Sure, why not! I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up asking for Amare at some point lol. Seriously though, Denver has nothing to lose by asking for the whole enchilada; the Knicks can just say no. That’s how you negotiate…you just keep asking until the other party says no. Unfortunately the Knicks have been having a hard time saying that one simple word.

    Bottom line to Denver should be this: Chandler, AR, Curry. Take it or talk to NJ. We’ll take our chances in FA.

  124. jaylamerique

    latke:
    1st of all, who gives a crap if the sixers pass us. We aren’t winning or even advancing in the playoffs this year, so it doesn’t matter.As far as alternatives go, here’s what I would do if ‘Melo ends up extending elsewhere and assuming all potential trade partners demand too much.1) THIS SEASON: Play Anthony Randolph at least 10 minutes every game. If he’s terrible, then you lose out on that late first rounder that minnesota was offering for him. Boo hoo. If he shows signs, he might be our answer at power forward, and we can sign and trade Wilson Chandler.
    2) THIS SUMMER: Let’s say Randolph doesn’t prove ready to take over at power forward. I’d go as high as $8 million/year for Chandler. If he gets a higher offer, sign and trade him. Let’s say we get a 1st round pick in the Chandler deal. Sign Arron Afflalo to an offer sheet at around $8-9 million. Denver will most likely match. This is part of the plan. Now that they’ve committed to Afflalo, are they also willing to pay Nene? They did, after all, give up Camby for some hot pockets over financial concerns. We offer to throw Randolph or Mozgov their way as part of a sign and trade. We also send them $3 million.Now we have a starting lineup of Nene, Amare, Gallinari, Fields, Felton. That’s already a big improvement over last year and IMO nearly as good a lineup as Mozgov, Amare, Carmelo, Fields, Billups. We also save about $8 million dollars in 2012 cap space. We should win somewhere between 48-52 games, and guess what? When D Williams and CP3make it clear their leaving, we actually have a few assets we can toss their way. We’re also under the cap, allowing us to offer those teams immediate…  

    Wow, so we can get nene for just Mozgov or AR. That is a lopsided deal. If nene was ever on the trade market, they could get more for then simply moz and 3million dollars.

  125. Frank O.

    One of the reporters tweeted that the Nugs would immediately package Felton in a deal with another team. They have no intention of holding him.
    Poor Ray. Journeyman

  126. Tyler Murray

    ww007: Bottom line to Denver should be this: Chandler, AR, Curry. Take it or talk to NJ. We’ll take our chances in FA.  

    Hell yes.

  127. Caleb

    @142 Nene can opt out after this season… so Nugs may well lose him for nothing, or in a “lopsided” sign and trade.

    Of course it could also take a lot of money to sign him, which may or may not be worth it.

  128. jaylamerique

    Also, if we keep the team the way it is, don’t we have to extend Gallo before 2012. I bet he commands atleast a 10 million dollar contract next year when he is a free agent.

  129. art vandelay

    The Knicks don´t have NEARLY as much leverage in these negotiations as we thought they did, and why? VERY simple: melo will not wait until free agency to sign with NYK…if he would do that and let his intentions be known we would be getting him for chandler, AR, curry (the deal you listed above). Instead, he apparently let denver know from the beginning how important it was for him to get this extension done prior to the deadline, so denver is pretty confident that if they drag this out until the 11th hour he will cave and sign with Jersey….knowing how badly Dolan wants Melo they can keep raising the ante on the knicks, letting this drag on until the deadline…in the end the money is more important to melo than being a Knick…I think that is the one thing we can glean with certainty from this past weekend{s events.

  130. cgreene

    @134 New Guy, I don’t agree we would have nothing left. Here would be our post trade assets:

    Fields – think we all agree sky’s the limit and could be a championship level role player

    Mozgov – athletic 7 footer who is starting to play much more efficiently since being put back in the lineup

    Extra E – TS% of 57 basically playing his 2nd full year in the league and perfect 3/stretch 4 fit for SSoL

    Billups – Top 10 PG with an expiring 2012 $14M contract that a title contending team would absolutely be interested in.

    Jordan – Putting up decent stats in Europe (according to some folks on the blog)

    Rautins – who knows??

    Azubuike – On the verge of being ready to return according to MDA (who definitely seemed to think he was done earlier in the year). What if he can get to 85% of what he was. At a 100% he is better than Chandler.

    2011 1st rd pick – mid teens (DW has obviously proven VERY adept at drafting in the mid to low end of the draft.

    Then the opportunity to clear massive cap space going into 2012. If there was one thing we saw in the 2010 off season it’s that you can get players off your roster if you want to. Miami did it. Chicago did it. Knicks did it.

    This may not be great and it may not be the stroke of luck that befell the Lakers w Pau or Celtics by trading w McHale but this is not a death knell of 40-45 wins and being an 8 seed.

  131. Tyler Murray

    jaylamerique: Also, if we keep the team the way it is, don’t we have to extend Gallo before 2012.I bet he commands atleast a 10 million dollar contract next year when he is a free agent.  

    Hometown discount? Gallo loves it here! And he’s always said he isn’t a star, so maybe he doesn’t think he deserves star money? If only…

  132. New Guy

    If the melo deal falls through, what does everyone think about just completing the side deal w MIN? It’s essentially AR for Brewer. I kind of like Brewer and think he’d be an excellent asset for this team. AR, for all his talent, just isn’t going to play. Brewer is an very good perimeter defender.

  133. Brian Cronin

    One of the reporters tweeted that the Nugs would immediately package Felton in a deal with another team. They have no intention of holding him.
    Poor Ray. Journeyman

    Makes sense. That contract makes him quite a valuable trade piece. I wonder who wants him in particular, though.

  134. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Brian Cronin: Yeah, I just saw Simmons call Melo a “Top 12? player and I was taken aback. No way is he a Top 12 player in the NBA.
    I would rank him probably a bit higher than you, Caleb, but roughly 20th.
    Which is still really good, of course, but the only guys I’d be cool with the Knicks just emptying the roster for would be guys in the Top 5, guys like Lebron, Chris Paul and Kevin Durant.  

    USG% > 25
    Sorted by TS%

    http://bkref.com/tiny/he4Uy

    19th this season. Not bad for $22M a year, right?

    Also, Simmons is a moron. In that article, he says this:

    If San Antonio wins 68-70 games and captures the title, he’d become the single toughest active player to assess from a historical standpoint. Phenomenal big-game player, one of the best international players ever, a key member of multiple title teams … yet he was never one of the league’s best five guards at any point in his career. Is he a potential Hall of Famer? Does he need one more title to get there? Is it fair to compare him to unsung guards like Joe Dumars and Dennis Johnson, when their best years were much better than Manu’s best years?

    Completely wrong.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/P85LN

    Look at the difference in those numbers!

  135. New Guy

    @147: we don’t know that he wouldn’t. We do know he doesn’t want to sign w the Nets, and he wants to leave Denver. He very likely is posturing, too.

  136. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, Manu has been oddly underrated over his career. For being a key component of three different championship teams, he’s still underrated!

  137. art vandelay

    Yes, melo is posturing, of course…if he tells the world directly he will only sign with Knicks he risks the knicks lowballing denver so much so that denver refuses to trade him before the deadline for scraps, keeps him and tries to put the pressure on him to sign the extension before hitting free agency this coming summer.

  138. Brian Cronin

    I dunno, Frank, it really just sounds to me that it is the difference between a 2013 and a 2014 pick, so it doesn’t seem like a major difference.

    The Knicks trade AR for a 2012 pick, then trade their own 2011 and their 2013 pick to Denver.

  139. jaylamerique

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    USG% > 25
    Sorted by TS%http://bkref.com/tiny/he4Uy19th this season. Not bad for $22M a year, right?Also, Simmons is a moron. In that article, he says this:If San Antonio wins 68-70 games and captures the title, he’d become the single toughest active player to assess from a historical standpoint. Phenomenal big-game player, one of the best international players ever, a key member of multiple title teams … yet he was never one of the league’s best five guards at any point in his career. Is he a potential Hall of Famer? Does he need one more title to get there? Is it fair to compare him to unsung guards like Joe Dumars and Dennis Johnson, when their best years were much better than Manu’s best years?
    Completely wrong.
    http://bkref.com/tiny/P85LNLook at the difference in those numbers!  

    he is even higher when you take the kevin Martins and David West of the world who aren’t better players.

  140. Frank O.

    One issue I’m concerned about:

    As much as I think Billups is a great season and a half rental, he wants to stay in Denver. Is he a disgruntled Knick?

  141. Brian Cronin

    By the by, I don’t think it’s fair to judge Carmelo against the South Beach fellows. It is the South Beach fellows who broke from pretty much everything we ever knew about free agency in the NBA. Melo is following the typical free agency paradigm to a tee (which is that while yes they want to choose their team, they also don’t want to leave any substantial amount of money on the table). I don’t blame Melo for doing what pretty much everyone else did in NBA history before the South Beach trio (who themselves “only” gave up roughly $20 million each).

  142. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin: I dunno, Frank, it really just sounds to me that it is the difference between a 2013 and a 2014 pick, so it doesn’t seem like a major difference.The Knicks trade AR for a 2012 pick, then trade their own 2011 and their 2013 pick to Denver.  

    Ok. I’m confused. didn’t I read that the Knicks were sending AR to Minni, who would send Brewer to Denver?

  143. Frank

    @152 – kind of slanted look at Melo — includes a bunch of guys that don’t really play that much or are obviously worse than Melo. Danny Green? Corey Maggette? And Kevin Martin is a fantastically talented offensive player, but he may actually be the worst defender in the entire league. Maybe Bibby is worse.

    This comparison may be better – includes scoring VOLUME as well as efficiency. In this he’s #14, and in non-PF/C he is #9. Surprising thing is that the Clips have 2 guys in the top 13. Notice also this list is essentially the best players in the whole league. So he may be a top 15 guy. So basically only every other team in the league has even 1 guy as good as he is. Not worth the package we’re giving up for him, but I think Melo is still pretty good.
    http://bkref.com/tiny/3DWsr

  144. Brian Cronin

    Ok. I’m confused. didn’t I read that the Knicks were sending AR to Minni, who would send Brewer to Denver?

    Right, Brewer and a pick. But the pick could be a 2012 pick coming to the Knicks instead so that the Knicks could deal their 2011 pick to Denver.

  145. Brian Cronin

    Not worth the package we’re giving up for him, but I think Melo is still pretty good.

    Yep. That’s it exactly. He is a great player, but just not worth this package.

  146. Frank

    Would people here rather give Gallinari as part of the package or the Mozgov/Fields combo? I sort of would rather give up Moz and Fields although that would give us an asymmetric lineup. Just feel like Gallo’s upside is the greatest. Say remove Gallo, add Moz/Fields on our side, and make them give us Afflalo too.

  147. New Guy

    Ahem:

    Chris_Broussard Sources say NJ in talks w/Den to send 2 1st round picks to Den for Mozgov & either Gallinari, Chandler or Felton, if Melo traded to NYK
    2 minutes ago

    Now what?

  148. Caleb

    Brian Cronin: the South Beach trio (who themselves “only” gave up roughly $20 million each).   

    …they did give up $$ in the sense that they could have gotten more from Miami — but because of no state income tax, they got as much as they could have from any other team.

  149. art vandelay

    RT @Chris_Broussard: Sources: NJ talks re: 2 1st rnd picks to Den for Mozgov & either Gallinari, Chandler or Felton, if Melo traded to NYKabout 4 hours ago Source: twitter

  150. Tyler Murray

    New Guy: Ahem:Chris_Broussard Sources say NJ in talks w/Den to send 2 1st round picks to Den for Mozgov & either Gallinari, Chandler or Felton, if Melo traded to NYK
    2 minutes agoNow what?  

    This is all so screwy, man.

    But they can’t have Mozgov so forget it! Why is he even in that tweet?

  151. Z-man

    Considering his age, which puts him right at the beginning of his prime years, (unless you believe that nonsense that NBA players peak at 24) I would say that Melo is a top-20 asset, and maybe a top 10. I wonder where a poll of NBA players would put him.

  152. Brian Cronin

    I presume that rumor is why Denver is insisting on Mozgov?

    Man, a rumor like that would really just drive me to an “eff this” stage, as the other team supposedly competing against you for Melo is pretty transparently just trying to get you to up your offer so that they can get those assets from the Nuggets. It’s a clever idea by New Jersey, but one that screams “Hey Knicks, you are being played here. The only way to not lose this game is to not play.”

  153. d-mar

    The only thing worse than losing Gallo would be to see him blossom in Brooklyn and have to play against him 3-4 times a year.

  154. Frank O.

    New Guy: Ahem:Chris_Broussard Sources say NJ in talks w/Den to send 2 1st round picks to Den for Mozgov & either Gallinari, Chandler or Felton, if Melo traded to NYK
    2 minutes agoNow what?  

    Wow. Denver and NJ setting the Knicks up pretty good, huh?

  155. Caleb

    jaylamerique:
    he is even higher when you take the kevin Martins and David West of the world who aren’t better players.  

    except this isn’t really a list of the best players.. it’s a list of the good high-volume scorers. If you lower the usage threshold to 21, you roll in Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Billups, Pierce, Bosh, Steph Curry, Duncan, Josh Smith and others… great playmakers, impact defenders, etc.

  156. johnno

    For those of you who are advocating a best and final offer of Chandler and a bag of used balls, do you think that there is a chance in hell that management and ownership of the Nuggets would ever even consider it for a second? Do you really think that they are willing to tell their fans that they just traded the best player the city has seen in 20 years for a solid, but not spectacular, restricted free agent? How would you have reacted if the Knicks had traded a Patrick Ewing in his prime for that? You probably would have considered setting fire to the Garden. You think that Denver management doesn’t think about how their fans will react? They would much rather hold ‘Melo’s feet to the fire and take their chances. Face it — ‘Melo fears giving up what he thinks will be a ton of money in the new CBA. He WILL cave at the last second and go to the Nets or simply sign the extension with the Nuggets.

  157. Tyler Murray

    Brian Cronin: I presume that rumor is why Denver is insisting on Mozgov?
    Man, a rumor like that would really just drive me to an “eff this” stage,   

    You’re a far more patient man than I for resisting that stage. But why can’t I look away from this train wreck?

  158. Frank O.

    Frank O.:
    Wow. Denver and NJ setting the Knicks up pretty good, huh?  

    of course this could be a floated deal by NJ to ward of the Knicks and force melo into their hands….
    Either way, some Machiavellian shit going on.
    Hope the Knicks haven’t shown up to a gunfight with a knife.

  159. d-mar

    The Knicks need to put a deal on the table, without Mozgov and maybe even without Gallo, and tell Denver they have until the end of today to say yea or nay. If nay, we’re done. It’s the only way to stop all this nonsense with NJ and put Denver’s feet to the fire. (unfortunately, if Dolan is running things, he would never do this, and will keep negotiating against himself)

  160. New Guy

    Walk away. We’re getting played.

    Surely this news must infuriate Dolan, no? Prokorov has known he won’t get Melo, so he’s been working to steal the Knicks assets from under our noses.

    Denver has been negotiating in bad faith throughout. This is enough to pull our offer and give Denver a take it or leave it low ball choice. Will we do it?

  161. Caleb

    @176 I agree – good chance the Nugs say no. But when the smoke clears, post-deadline, Melo will see that the Knicks can offer the same $$ in the summer, in all likelihood….

    And if he does re-sign in Denver, it’s better than making a stupid trade.

  162. Frank O.

    d-mar: The Knicks need to put a deal on the table, without Mozgov and maybe even without Gallo, and tell Denver they have until the end of today to say yea or nay. If nay, we’re done. It’s the only way to stop all this nonsense with NJ and put Denver’s feet to the fire. (unfortunately, if Dolan is running things, he would never do this, and will keep negotiating against himself)  

    It needs to be finalized today. Knicks can’t show up at practice with all this shit going on.
    And the Knicks shouldn’t care what happens once they make a deal. The deal needs to satisfy their needs and that should be the main concern. Either melo and Billups makes them better, or not.
    Shit or get off the pot. If the goal posts move, walk.

  163. Jim Cavan

    We’re seeing pretty clearly what happens when you pit a guy who was by all accounts a self-made mogul, against a spoiled man-child who barely knows how to play checkers, let alone master-level chess. Say what you will about the guy, Prokhorov’s moves have been brilliant. Even if we get our wits about us and walk away, he’s clearly smart enough to pull off some shit to really make things difficult for us down the road. He knows he’s not dealing with the brightest crayon in the box here, and now he’s got ol’ Jimmy on the ropes with about 5 seconds left until the 12th round bell.

    If the Knicks fall into this trap, you know that “joint statement” was all a bunch of bullshit. In reality it probably was anyway, but you have to think Donnie is looking at all of this and pleading frantically with Dolan to just walk away.

  164. Jim Cavan

    I think I seriously might write a book about the entire Melo Drama. The shit that went / is going on would easily fill 300 pages.

  165. Caleb

    Jim Cavan: Say what you will about the guy, Prokhorov’s moves have been brilliant..  

    ..except for hiring Avery Johnson and Billy King, and giving $35 million to Travis Outlaw.

    Resistable force meets movable object… I guess we’ll see where this one lands!

  166. Jim Cavan

    Caleb:
    ..except for hiring Avery Johnson and Billy King, and giving $35 million to Travis Outlaw.
    Resistable force meets movable object… I guess we’ll see where this one lands!  

    So he’s clearly not a great judge of talent. At least not yet. But what he’s shown is a very real strategical acumen that I think a lot of owner’s aren’t bright enough to replicate. I could turn out to be wrong, of course, but you could tell when he was asked about the Melo meeting that, even though he knew he might not end up with Melo, he’s still put the Nets in a great position to get SOMETHING out of it. Which is more than a lot of owners would be able to say.

  167. KnicksFanInVA

    I don’t understand how NJ could get our assets. I thought you can’t re-trade players right away?

    Or I guess there could be a 3-way trade with Denver, NY and NJ?

    Man I really really hate all of this b/s. Just get out of this shit now.

  168. massive

    History should be on our side. Teams constantly rape other teams with trades for their best player. Its the nature of the business, and has been the same through multiple CBAs. I don’t care what Denver wants. They should only get something to the tune of Felton, Chandler, Walker, and the pick Anthony Randolph would net them for Billups and Anthony. Walsh has been around for a very long time, so he should know this. Let Melo say no to New Jersey, and let Denver get done in. Besides, Denver gets a HUGE trade exception out of this. They can screw themselves.

  169. ess-dog

    New Guy: Ahem:Chris_Broussard Sources say NJ in talks w/Den to send 2 1st round picks to Den for Mozgov & either Gallinari, Chandler or Felton, if Melo traded to NYK
    2 minutes agoNow what?

    WOW. Brilliant move by Proky. Get some guys that already have a fan base in the city to further try and eat into the Knicks fan base. Makes sense since earlier, Denver had no interest in Gallo.

    It’s almost as if Denver doesn’t even care who they end up with or where Melo goes, the main goal is just to dick with the Knicks as much as possible throughout this process.

    I agree that it’s time to pull anyone that the Nets have the most interest in via this trade i.e. Moz being russian and probably Gallo.

  170. Caleb

    @189 The thing is – I would not necessarily believe the Knicks have made the reported offer. Donnie would never shoot himself in the foot by making such an offer public, even if he really did make it… and he never leaks, anyway. And Dolan doesn’t talk to reporters…

    And, if the info came from the Nuggets or Team Melo you would have to take it with a grain of salt, no?

  171. New Guy

    johnno: For those of you who are advocating a best and final offer of Chandler and a bag of used balls, do you think that there is a chance in hell that management and ownership of the Nuggets would ever even consider it for a second?  

    Johnno, let me ask you a question:

    What do you think happens when Melo takes the floor in Denver tomorrow night against the Grizzlies?

    If you’re Denver, how do you keep this charade going? How do you get nothing for Melo b/c you wanted to save more on the luxury tax? Or b/c you wanted Mozgov so you could trade him for the Lakers first round pick?

    How do you market yourself to season ticket holders next year when Melo walks away for nothing, when you could’ve gotten some combination of Chandler, Randolph, and Corey Brewer, but you wanted everything instead?

    Believe me, Denver has A LOT to lose. More than anyone, I’d say.

  172. bobneptune

    New Guy: Ahem:Chris_Broussard Sources say NJ in talks w/Den to send 2 1st round picks to Den for Mozgov & either Gallinari, Chandler or Felton, if Melo traded to NYK
    2 minutes agoNow what?  

    punt, obv…… it would serve dolan right to have to watch gallo reign 3′s on his ass for the next 12 years!

  173. Z-man

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    USG% > 25
    Sorted by TS%http://bkref.com/tiny/he4Uy19th this season. Not bad for $22M a year, right?
    http://bkref.com/tiny/P85LNLook at the difference in those numbers!  

    THCJ, you can cherry-pick stats and make any player look better or worse than he really is. Here is an example:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1980&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=usg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=27&c2stat=fta_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=6&c3stat=trb_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=5&c4stat=ast_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=3&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ts_pct

    Basically, this is a search for players in the 3-pt era who for their career have a high usage %, get to the line, rebound and pass. So I guess that Melo belongs in this group, right? BTW Blake Griffin comes up in lots of my searches that resulted in a list of all-time greats…scary!

    The one thing that scares me a bit is that Melo measures very low in is his WS/48, which seems mainly due to his low defensive rating. To me, that’s the gamble…can he become a better defender in a town that preaches defense first? I think it’s a good gamble.

  174. Brian Cronin

    To me, that’s the gamble…can he become a better defender in a town that preaches defense first? I think it’s a good gamble.

    I don’t get what this line means. What town preaches defense first? Not the Knicks, right?

  175. New Guy

    Frank O.:
    It needs to be finalized today. Knicks can’t show up at practice with all this shit going on.  

    I disagree. Like I said above, I think our leverage only goes higher when Melo shows up in to play Memphis in Denver tomorrow night. I think he gets booed off the floor. If I’m Donnie, I make sure that happens. Cuz Wednesday morning, the story is going to be:

    How can Denver Management keep doing this to their fans? If he won’t sign the extension, take the best offer and move on.

  176. Brian Cronin

    Cuz Wednesday morning, the story is going to be

    While that might be what the story logically should be, there’s no way that will be what the story will be. Ian O’Connor will continue to say, “Okay, we gave them Mozgov and now they want Fields. How can we let a role player get in the way of getting Melo?”

  177. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Caleb: Quote

    The big counterargument against me has been that Carmelo is way better than his shooting efficiency numbers suggest because he’s a high usage player. Well, Kevin Martin has a much better TS% and a similar usage%, so…

  178. Caleb

    note that on both these lists (of big scorers) he was at the very bottom in terms of efficiency (TS%). That might be the takeaway..

    Of course he has had better years than this…

  179. Brian Cronin

    The town, not the coach!

    Oh, gotcha. Yeah, New York is a town that loves defense. But I don’t see how he could possibly up his defense when the team as a whole doesn’t play defense well. Of all the “I think Melo will improve on ___” arguments (“he’ll get more efficient, he’ll pass more with Amar’e, etc.”), him improving on his defense seems to be the least likely.

  180. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Z-man:THCJ, you can cherry-pick stats and make any player look better or worse than he really is.

    I wasn’t cherry picking. I just showed a list of players with a USG% over 25, many of whom have significantly better shooting efficiencies. I wasn’t cherry-picking at all. It just so happens that even when you sort by what Carmelo’s supposedly good at (using possessions in a scoring attempt), he’s still not all that good.

  181. Z-man

    Caleb: note that on both these lists (of big scorers) he was at the very bottom in terms of efficiency (TS%). But that might be the takeaway..Of course he has had better years than this…  

    My list is by cumulative career stats

  182. Brian Cronin

    And note that Pierce always played hard (and well) on defense, even when his teams were awful.

    And no one would have ever traded the haul the Knicks are offering for Melo for Pierce at age 26 (and going into free agency). Because while Pierce is as good of a player as Melo, Pierce was never branded a superstar.

  183. Ben R

    Melo is a once in a life time talent. I mean we will just sign some players off of d-league and they can be almost as good as Fields and Mozgov and Gallo, so really it’s like we’re giving up nothing. You do know we’re only giving up one lottery talent a couple of mid first players and the deal is getting held up by a center that wasn’t even drafted and a SG that couldn’t even get picked in the first round.

    I mean come on this is Melo. When you have a chance to get a player who scores 25+ point a game you have to do that. 25 points a game!!! Melo is an all-star we’re not giving up a single all-star, so really we’re totally winning this trade no matter what.

  184. latke

    Jim Cavan: I think I seriously might write a book about the entire Melo Drama. The shit that went / is going on would easily fill 300 pages.  

    I pasted the comments and articles from this thread and the previous one about ‘Melo and it totals about 55,000 words, 290 pages single spaced. That’s just two threads. We’ve been talking about this regularly for like six months. I’d guess the total page count to be about 3,000, and that’s just this blog. Add all the columns and discussion boards and you might get to 50,000 pages. That’s an encyclopedia, not a book.

  185. PC

    Duh!!!!! Here is a NYESPN report basically making clear why Mozgoz now has to be included. Nets wants him. Below is a snippit from the article.

    “Even if the New Jersey Nets do not acquire Carmelo Anthony, they still might pull off a trade with the Denver Nuggets, one that would likely be a sore spot for their cross-river rivals in New York, according to high-ranking league officials.

    If the New York Knicks send Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, Wilson Chandler and Timofey Mozgov to Denver for Anthony, the Nets are in discussions to then acquire either Gallinari, Felton or Chandler plus Mozgov for two first-round draft picks.

    That deal is obviously contingent upon the Knicks trading all those players to Denver for a package headlined by Anthony and Chauncey Billups.”

  186. KnicksFanInVA

    Ben R: Melo is a once in a life time talent. I mean we will just sign some players off of d-league and they can be almost as good as Fields and Mozgov and Gallo, so really it’s like we’re giving up nothing. You do know we’re only giving up one lottery talent a couple of mid first players and the deal is getting held up by a center that wasn’t even drafted and a SG that couldn’t even get picked in the first round.I mean come on this is Melo. When you have a chance to get a player who scores 25+ point a game you have to do that. 25 points a game!!! Melo is an all-star we’re not giving up a single all-star, so really we’re totally winning this trade no matter what.  

    LOL

  187. iserp

    I wouldn’t mind trading Chandler and Mozgov for two 1st round picks, which picks would NJ be sending?

    I am a bit sick of all this trade talk; i don’t understand the urgency to do the deal. We’re in a good position, if we don’t do any deal, we are still gonna be in a good position. We should make an offer good for us, and if not accepted, we should try our luck in FA.

    We are offering Gallo / Chandler / Felton / Randolph / A pick / (Whatever FA we could sign OR cap space for CP3 / D-Will / DW12)

    for Melo / an old player that might not want to play here / a MLE guy (if still exists after the new CBA)

    And what the hell, Melo could very well come here in FA! i don’t really believe he is going to extend with either Denver or New Jersey.

    The only (and i repeat only) reason i could make the proposed trade is if you are 100% confident (as in tampering) that this deal brings CP3 or D-Will here next year.

  188. Brian Cronin

    Right, which is why the Knicks should seriously consider walking away at this point (or do the equivalent by lowering their offer). Their only real competition is clearly not really their competition, at least not for Melo.

  189. PC

    Draft picks (unless its a Blake Griffin type) have no chance of selling a whole new stadium and team. So the Nets are going to dump their picks for a few nice pieces (say, Gallo and Mozgov) to entice some NYK fans to switch over and make Brooklyn the free agency destination Prok thinks it will be.

    The fatal flaw in all of this thinking is that Prok has no clue about the history of basketball and how it will be really tough to ever make Knick fans turn into actual money-spending Brooklyn nets fans. His ploy is smart but a bit overthought.

  190. Z-man

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I wasn’t cherry picking. I just showed a list of players with a USG% over 25, many of whom have significantly better shooting efficiencies. I wasn’t cherry-picking at all. It just so happens that even when you sort by what Carmelo’s supposedly good at (using possessions in a scoring attempt), he’s still not all that good.  

    I don’t think anyone is arguing that Melo is a great (high% shooter). The question is, how valuable of a player is he, all things considered. For a high-volume shooter/scorer, he rebounds and passes at a pretty good clip, and doesn’t turn the ball over as much as some of the others. The fact that the career list that I produced was so short demonstrates that.

  191. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Ben R: Melo is a once in a life time talent. I mean we will just sign some players off of d-league and they can be almost as good as Fields and Mozgov and Gallo, so really it’s like we’re giving up nothing. You do know we’re only giving up one lottery talent a couple of mid first players and the deal is getting held up by a center that wasn’t even drafted and a SG that couldn’t even get picked in the first round.I mean come on this is Melo. When you have a chance to get a player who scores 25+ point a game you have to do that. 25 points a game!!! Melo is an all-star we’re not giving up a single all-star, so really we’re totally winning this trade no matter what.  

    If this is satire, bravo.

  192. PC

    I gotta say though, arguing over whether the Knicks should trade for Melo is a bit useless. Melo seems to be coming in some form to NYK.

    Let’s just get ready for no defense and mediocre basketball – wait! that’s what we already had!!!

  193. Z-man

    Ben R: Melo is a once in a life time talent. I mean we will just sign some players off of d-league and they can be almost as good as Fields and Mozgov and Gallo, so really it’s like we’re giving up nothing. You do know we’re only giving up one lottery talent a couple of mid first players and the deal is getting held up by a center that wasn’t even drafted and a SG that couldn’t even get picked in the first round.I mean come on this is Melo. When you have a chance to get a player who scores 25+ point a game you have to do that. 25 points a game!!! Melo is an all-star we’re not giving up a single all-star, so really we’re totally winning this trade no matter what.  

    Welcome back, Ted, we missed you!

  194. iserp

    BTW, hollinger has an article up weighing whether we are offering too much.

    Anyone with insider could summarize what he says?

  195. Brian Cronin

    And Ben, obviously you know I’m basically right there with you, but I don’t think the heavy dose of sarcasm is particularly helpful right now. Things are tense enough without mocking each other’s positions (and I know your intent was likely to mock the mainstream media’s position more so than other posters, but the effect is essentially the same).

  196. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Z-man:
    The question is, how valuable of a player is he, all things considered.For a high-volume shooter/scorer, he rebounds and passes at a pretty good clip, and doesn’t turn the ball over as much as some of the others.  

    He’s a slightly above-average SF with regard to all of those things you’ve said.

    http://www.wagesofwins.com/DurantMelo03030910.html

    If the difference between him and an average SF is $16M/yr over the next four, count me out.

  197. Caleb

    iserp: BTW, hollinger has an article up weighing whether we are offering too much.Anyone with insider could summarize what he says?  

    He says, paraphrasing:

    “Who could believe the Nuggets could play such a weak hand into a good haul, for Melo? And why did Donnie Walsh cave in? (Hollinger is buying the latest reports, hook, line and sinker). I have changed my mind – Denver should not bother keeping him when the offers are this good… at the same time, the Knicks still come out on top because Carmelo is great.”

    So it’s kind of a weird take.

  198. Brian Cronin

    Anyone with insider could summarize what he says?

    A. Essentially nothing (the Knicks and Nets both have offers that he thinks make sense for Denver to take either deal, as opposed to his earlier position that Denver should just risk him re-signing).

    B. It’s also based on the old trade rumors, the ones that don’t involve Mozgov going to Denver and the side NJ/Denver trade.

    So it’s basically a useless article.

  199. Ben R

    Brian – You’re right, I apoligize for my outburst, i’m just getting really frustrated and angry over all of this. I love the Knicks but I really kinda hate being a Knicks fan. We can’t have things bounce our way for any real period of time. Right when it finally looks like we have good management for the first time in what 10+ years, it all falls apart. We are young, fiscally responsible and easy to roo for and were throwing that all away in one big horrible move.

    I respect everyone on this blog and I do not mean to belittle anyones opinions I just hate this whole thing.

  200. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, and as Caleb notes, he also throws in, completely unsupported, “Denver will lose no matter what because they gave up the best player and the Knicks will win no matter what because they got the best player.” Which doesn’t tie into anything else in his article. It practically seems like it was written by someone else, that’s how unconnected it is to the rest of his article.

  201. latke

    Howard Beck with an article citing a Knicks “associate” as saying, “I know Walsh doesn’t want to do it.”

    Neither Walsh nor D’Antoni wants to break up the Knicks’ promising young core. They would prefer to wait and sign Anthony this summer, when he can become a free agent. Anthony wants to be a Knick, and everyone in the league knows it.

    So Walsh, true to form, played the patience game. He kept his offers conservative, initially dangling just Wilson Chandler and Eddy Curry’s expiring contract. When it appeared the Nets were making a move on Anthony, the Knicks proposed a swap of Chandler and Felton for Anthony and Chauncey Billups. The Nuggets balked and asked for Gallinari.

    That, according to one person closely involved in the talks, was the potential breaking point. Walsh and D’Antoni did not want to sacrifice the 22-year-old Gallinari, the No. 6 pick in the 2008 draft. Dolan was determined to make a deal. Eventually, the person said, the three men did agree — although, perhaps, under duress, from Dolan as well as the Nets.

    Dolan met with Anthony last week in part to assure him that the Knicks want him and to dissuade him from accepting a trade to the Nets. The Nets are a questionable threat because Anthony has no desire to sign an extension with them. But their presence spooked Dolan enough to increase the Knicks’ bid.

    It almost doesn’t matter whether Dolan is getting his advice from Thomas, Donald Trump or his limo driver. The trade, as constituted, could rob the Knicks of youth and depth and undo much of Walsh’s hard work.

    link

  202. stratomatic

    All I can say is that I’m flabbergasted that Donnie Walsh would gut the team of all its youthful upside and extra cap space after spending two years building it all for a player that is primarily a scorer on a team that already has a #1 scorer.

  203. New Guy

    Brian Cronin:
    A. Essentially nothing (the Knicks and Nets both have offers that he thinks make sense for Denver to take either deal, as opposed to his earlier position that Denver should just risk him re-signing).
    B. It’s also based on the old trade rumors, the ones that don’t involve Mozgov going to Denver and the side NJ/Denver trade.So it’s basically a useless article.  

    He does make his feeling known, however, the Denver is playing the best game of poker here, and that the Knicks have been bluffed into including more than we needed to.

  204. Z

    I don’t think Ben was mocking anyone on this board. With one exception, it seems everyone is in comp,eye agreement that there is a price too high to pay for Carmelo and the Knicks have, apparently, exceeded it. Ben is just summing up the position of Mr. Main Stream Fan/Reporter/Observer. When it’s put out there like that, it shows just how ridiculous that view is, no?

  205. Z-man

    THCJ,
    That gets us into the argument of whether the “average” sf can maintain “average” production while taking almost twice as many shots. Trevor Ariza is what you get when you make that argument.

  206. Frank O.

    bobneptune:
    punt, obv…… it would serve dolan right to have to watch gallo reign 3?s on his ass for the next 12 years!  

    none of these players will suit up with a trade pending. No way.

  207. Caleb

    @228 The thing is – I don’t totally buy this line. If Walsh really thinks this is a bad move, he doesn’t have to play along. I don’t mean he can stop it, but he doesn’t have to embarrass himself by signing a statement saying he agrees with Dolan. He doesn’t need to let himself be crapped on – he can just wash his hands of it all, and get another job. There’s an opening in Indy.

    So… cautiously… I believe that when he signs on to a statement saying Walsh/MDA/Dolan are on the same page… it is true.

    Which is why I don’t totally believe that the Knicks have gone “all-in.”

    Almost time to put those cards on the table.

  208. Z

    By the way, I heard Bill Walton on the radio a few months ago and he was very dismissive of Carmelo Anthony as a player. He said, basically, that Anthony was good but not great. Not a super star. Not a guy you build a championship team around. Not sure if I’ve heard any other “analysts” have such a grounded take. Walton as a KB folk hero?

  209. Jim Cavan

    latke: I pasted the comments and articles from this thread and the previous one about ‘Melo and it totals about 55,000 words, 290 pages single spaced. That’s just two threads. We’ve been talking about this regularly for like six months. I’d guess the total page count to be about 3,000, and that’s just this blog. Add all the columns and discussion boards and you might get to 50,000 pages. That’s an encyclopedia, not a book.

    Christ on a crutch, that’s ridiculous. Screw an encyclopedia; this has the makings of a movie franchise.

    Will Smith = Melo
    Dolph Lundgren = Prokhorov
    Jack Nicholson = Donnie
    Idris Elba = Stat
    Tom Hanks = Jimmy Dolan

    It would be Hanks’ most challenging role to date, combining elements of “Forest Gump” (borderline retarded overachiever), “Big” (adult trapped in a child’s body), and “A League of Their Own” (grumpy drunk horrible at managing people).

    Who wouldn’t Net Flix that shit?

  210. Frank O.

    Z-man:
    I don’t think anyone is arguing that Melo is a great (high% shooter). The question is, how valuable of a player is he, all things considered.For a high-volume shooter/scorer, he rebounds and passes at a pretty good clip, and doesn’t turn the ball over as much as some of the others. The fact that the career list that I produced was so short demonstrates that.  

    Are we saying he is Zach Randolph?

  211. NateRobinson

    Believe me, right at the deadline Denver is going to agree to NYK’s deal and our future will be kaput…

    Say goodbye to Gallo, Chandler and AR people…

  212. latke

    Z-man: THCJ,
    That gets us into the argument of whether the “average” sf can maintain “average” production while taking almost twice as many shots. Trevor Ariza is what you get when you make that argument.

    This is half true. There are guys like Tyson Chandler, Ariza, Deandre Jordan, Mo Williams and Anthony Parker who shoot (or have shot) efficiently because other players create easy looks for them. Then there are players whose talents are legitimately undervalued and whose efficiency doesn’t suffer as their usage increases: Wesley Matthews and LaMarcus Aldridge have taken a lot more shots this year w/ the loss of Roy. Aldridge’s TS% has gone up a good bit, while Matthews has only suffered a small decline.

  213. New Guy

    I need to get out of the house. Have a great day, Knicks fans! And keep up the hope that we don’t get hosed.

    PS avoiding the internet the rest of today might be harder than when I quit smoking.

  214. Brian Cronin

    Wojo claims that the Nets rumors are a scam by the Nets to try to get the Knicks to pull out of the deal so that Melo is forced to go to the Nets.

    Fine by me.

  215. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin: Wojo claims that the Nets rumors are a scam by the Nets to try to get the Knicks to pull out of the deal so that Melo is forced to go to the Nets.Fine by me.  

    I suggested this about 20 posts ago.

  216. New Guy

    Before I go:

    Dabney Coleman as MDA.

    Silvio Muccino as Gallo.

    Tristan Wildes as…not sure but if stringer bell is involved Michael should be too

  217. NateRobinson

    People here need to stop pulling stats out of their collective asses and just judge the damn player by his basketball skills.

    Melo is in no way shape or form an average volume scorer. Imo he is the most skilled scorer, and the most prolific in this league. And I do not need stats to tell me that. Just by looking at his skillset, his quickness out of the triple threat position. His superior ball handling, his sharp moves and counter moves. And above all his sweet jumper…

    No stat sheet can tell me how good a player is.

    If you dont believe me, look at Shawn Marion’s numbers. The stat sheet says he is an elite player, 20ppg-10reb-2stl 1blk 50%, but in reality he was/is a very good role player…

  218. iserp

    latke: Aldridge’s TS% has gone up a good bit

    That is also a byproduct of Miller orchestrating the offense instead of Roy; but i agree with you, there’s no universal correlation between efficiency and usage. There are players that will have an average efficiency whether they take a lot of shots or not, and there are players that will shine taking open looks, but look abysmal trying anything out of the realm of their capabilities.

    Maybe Melo increases its efficiency, since his shot selection in SSOL should be different, but it is not a given. I am a bit confident that yes, since he is very skilled, and could rise his 3pt to 35% or so taking a fair share of open 3s. However, it’s a bit ugly seeing him taking so much iso’s in denver, and we would have to see how amenable he is to defer to other teammates.

  219. Brian Cronin

    People here need to stop pulling stats out of their collective asses and just judge the damn player by his basketball skills.

    The only reason Carmelo Anthony is seen as a superstar is because of his stats (his points per game stats, that is).

  220. NateRobinson

    I respectfully disagree Cronin, mainly because I (can’t speak for others) see his abilities as a scorer superior to most…

    Plus, he can go on long stretches where he averages 35 points and shoots ridiculously high percentages while doing it all on iso’s.

  221. latke

    NateRobinson: Plus, he can go on long stretches where he averages 35 points and shoots ridiculously high percentages while doing it all on iso’s.

    This is true. He is a very good difficult shot-maker. We could call him a better version of Jamal Crawford in that sense. You have every nba players take Jamal’s step back jumper 100 times, and Crawford probably makes more 90% of them. ‘Melo probably makes more than 98% of the other players. The problem is that even the best bad shot makers shoot a lower percentage on those bad shots than a balanced team mostly full of role-players. So yeah, put ‘Melo on a team like the Bucks, who really are terrible at getting good shots, then he’s going to help them.

    However, put him on a team like the Knicks, that, on average, finds more efficient shots than ‘Melo in solo mode (knicks TS%: .559, ‘Melo for his career: .544), all the sudden you’d prefer him to go into solo-mode a lot less often. To make a concrete example, would you rather ‘Melo stop the ball and isolate against his man, or have the knicks run a pick and roll, draw Fields’ defender in, and get him the ball for an open corner three?

    Role player does not mean “bad player.” It means player that is effective without being the central part of the offense. The Mavericks, for example, are probably better off with Tyson Chandler (role player) and Dirk Nowitzki (scorer) than having two Dirk Nowitzkis and no Chandler.

    For ‘Melo to help the Knicks, he will need to do a lot more role-playing, and he will have to be efficient at it. If he can’t spread the floor on an Amare PnR like Fields does, then that’s costing us easy baskets, which are better than hard baskets no matter who’s taking them.

  222. Frank O.

    SI’s Chris Mannix tweets:

    Source says it appears Nets are “throwing in the towel” on pursuit of Anthony.

  223. Brian Cronin

    True, Kevin. Then again, I think there’s something to be said for the fact that in New York, it “pays” to tear down, while that doesn’t play as well in other cities and areas, like New Jersey.

    You can see this in the reporting from certain places. In Boston and New York, they tear down, but in places like Denver, St. Louis and, I believe, New Jersey, they tend to pump their teams up.

  224. Kevin McElroy

    Brian,

    Agree, but I think virtually every step of this process by NJ has been orchestrated deliberately and, in most cases, brillliantly. They have consistently strung Denver along and given them reasons to push more and more out of the Knicks. Even in dropping out, they could lead the Knicks to overplay their hand by pulling Gallo off the table thinking that they are Denver’s only option, only to have the Nets re-emerge at the 11th hour with no Knicks deal in place and Carmelo viewing the Nets as the only place where he can get his $65M. I have no more evidence of this than you guys do but given the Nets see-sawing interest throughout the process, it wouldn’t surprise me.

    The Nets have played Denver (and Melo and the Knicks) hot and cold, while the Knicks have flashed false bravado, only to weaken their stance as the moment of truth approached. Prokhorov has engineered a fantastic advertisement to neutral but knowledgeable NBA fans in the NYC area.

  225. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin: Wojo claims that the Nets rumors are a scam by the Nets to try to get the Knicks to pull out of the deal so that Melo is forced to go to the Nets.Fine by me.  

    this is all nonsense, the nix should offer denver melo for chandler, randolph and curry. if they want the felton for billups, so be it, we can live with that.

    UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF MELO’S IMPENDING FREE AGENCY, THAT IS A FAIR PACKAGE.

    if melo prefers more money and chooses the nyets, so be it and all the best to him.

    denver has no leverage at all here. it is really melo’s decision. he can take the extra money and either stay in denver or go to the nyets (or anywhere else for that matter).

    there is absolutely zero reason to give 5 useful players for him and hamstring the franchise from any more moves for the next 6 tears.

    i don’t understand why dolan, et al don’t see it this way. what is denver’s or melo’s back up position if the nix take their ball and go home?

  226. Brian Cronin

    Apropos of nothing, I just came across this and found it interesting. Who do you think is the all-time leader in games played as a Cleveland Cavalier?

  227. Frank

    I will choose to think that Donnie is letting everyone think he is weak, then come back on wednesday night with Chandler/curry/AR/Felton and go eff yourselves for Melo/Billups/filler. They’ll be no time left and Denver will break. No way Melo signs with NJ and is miserable for the rest of his prime.

  228. d-mar

    Can we all stop singing the praises of Prokhorov? Basically, what the guy did is blatantly lie, twice. First, “we’re 100% pulling out of the Melo sweepstakes”, then he jumps back in. Next, “we have no plans to meet with Melo in LA”, then he has dinner with him. ALL OF THIS is an effort to screw the Knicks and nothing more. It goes hand in hand with the billboard across from MSG. He’s a billionaire who absolutely HATES the fact that he’s second fiddle in the NY area, and he will do whatever it takes to make the Knicks’ life difficult. What is so damn brilliant about that??

  229. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    latke:
    This is half true. There are guys like Tyson Chandler, Ariza, Deandre Jordan, Mo Williams and Anthony Parker who shoot (or have shot) efficiently because other players create easy looks for them. Then there are players whose talents are legitimately undervalued and whose efficiency doesn’t suffer as their usage increases: Wesley Matthews and LaMarcus Aldridge have taken a lot more shots this year w/ the loss of Roy. Aldridge’s TS% has gone up a good bit, while Matthews has only suffered a small decline.  

    So you think that “creating an easy look” constitutes boxing out, fighting for an offensive board, and then dunking the putback? If you’re saying that “easy looks” are created by bad shooters, then sure. But don’t discredit players like Tyson Chandler and Nene for being good basketball players because they are adept at high-efficiency, high-output plays.

  230. Caleb

    Kevin McElroy: The Nets have played Denver (and Melo and the Knicks) hot and cold, while the Knicks have flashed false bravado, only to weaken their stance as the moment of truth approached.  

    @260 I don’t think the Knicks have offered bravado or anything else – they have kept their mouths zipped. It’s the Nets, Nuggets and Team Melo providing the oxygen for the media bonfire. Prokhorov has done fine playing an apparently non-existent hand (the guy he wants refuses to come to New Jersey), but there’s no way to judge the winner until the deadline. Or even summer…

    All this offer/counter-offer stuff… 99 percent is made up… only Donnie, Dolan and maybe MDA know what the Knicks are actually willing to give. My guess: whatever it is, hasn’t changed in the last week.

  231. Kevin McElroy

    d-mar: Can we all stop singing the praises of Prokhorov? Basically, what the guy did is blatantly lie, twice. First, “we’re 100% pulling out of the Melo sweepstakes”, then he jumps back in. Next, “we have no plans to meet with Melo in LA”, then he has dinner with him. ALL OF THIS is an effort to screw the Knicks and nothing more. It goes hand in hand with the billboard across from MSG. He’s a billionaire who absolutely HATES the fact that he’s second fiddle in the NY area, and he will do whatever it takes to make the Knicks’ life difficult. What is so damn brilliant about that??  

    That it’s working?

  232. d-mar

    Kevin McElroy:
    That it’s working?  

    Working for who? Where does that leave his franchise? Moving to Brooklyn with Brook Lopez as your centerpiece? Great job screwing the Knicks, now what about your team, Mikhail?

  233. Mulligan

    d-mar: Can we all stop singing the praises of Prokhorov? Basically, what the guy did is blatantly lie, twice. First, “we’re 100% pulling out of the Melo sweepstakes”, then he jumps back in. Next, “we have no plans to meet with Melo in LA”, then he has dinner with him. ALL OF THIS is an effort to screw the Knicks and nothing more. It goes hand in hand with the billboard across from MSG. He’s a billionaire who absolutely HATES the fact that he’s second fiddle in the NY area, and he will do whatever it takes to make the Knicks’ life difficult. What is so damn brilliant about that??  

    +1

    The Nets have nothing and are desperate, hence the need to try and stir something up. Of course, we’re all freaking out because they have the perfect mark in Dolan, but my faith is that Walsh will prevail when it comes to negotiating. Melo ain’t going to the Nets and he ain’t resigning with Denver. No need to ship more than some cap relief and a modicum of talent to Denver.

  234. Kevin McElroy

    D-mar,

    You said his goal was to make the Knicks’ life difficult. If you don’t think that is working in this instance i would refer you to “The Internet.” Not saying the Nets will get anything out of it but if it’s a zero-sum thing with the Knicks (like you are implying) he is getting them to either bleed more assets or get burned by lots of their fans (not most of this board, however) for not making a trade they wanted them to make. So insofar as his goal is to hassle the Knicks, it’s working.

    Is it “brilliant?” That might be too strong a word but the contrast in the way he and Dolan’s images have fared this week is pretty stark, I would say.

  235. Garson

    If the Knicks go public and say they are out… I think that would cause Melo to rethink his whole stance on being “politically correct” and he would come out and say that he is only going to NY. Once that happens , we hold all the Cards and can dictate what we want to give.

    It would be a very risky poker move , however in the long run might save us some assets and alot of dignity.

  236. JR Sec 112

    Bobneptune, respectfully, no, its not. Despite what everyone on this board is saying. Its Melo for nothing, since Denver probably has no plans to sign WC to a long term deal after this season. Thats why we have to put in Gallo. Otherwise, Denver may indeed decide to just see if Melo blinks.

    For the 2011-2 season, the way the deal is currently constructed, we are giving up 2 useful players and getting back 2. The players we are getting are better. Its a good deal for us. Thats why the Nuggets are going to wait until the last minute before caving.

    The Russian in NJ is a joke. he has Billy King, one of the worst GMs ever, managing the team. He went out and got Travis Outlaw and Jordan Farmar as his big FA signings. He’s hyping up how he’s played this brilliant game. Its ludicrous.

    I continue to believe that Knick management has played this very smartly and will end up with a deal that in 5 years may look as good as the Gasol deal. I know everyone is going to say they dont have to make the deal. But its too big a risk to just let the deadline pass. Gallo is worth the price to lock this in.

    On a separate note, all the nonsense about Melo and STAT cant play together sounds exactly like the stuff about the Heat when they started 9-8. Lebron and Wade same kind of players. They seemed to have worked that out. Thats what elite players do.

    Finally, TS% is not the end of all metrics. My sense is Melo’s % is lower because he is the ‘bailout option’. If there is 5 seconds left on the shot clock, give the ball to Melo and see what happens. Anyone who has watched the Knicks the last few weeks knows thats exactly what happened to Felton’s %s.

  237. Kevin McElroy

    Nash bargaining theory would have an interesting application here. Basically, Nash proposed that the gains one side makes from a compromise will be directly proportionate to their willingness (relative to their counterpart) to walk away from the bargaining table. So if you are indifferent between dealing or not dealing, you will “win” the negotiation against a party that would be screwed if no deal happened (this is pretty intuitive).

    So if you look at this situation, if the Knicks are actually fairly indifferent to acquiring Carmelo vs. keeping their young assets, and the Nets are really out of it, you’d expect the Knicks to get away with sacrificing fewer of those assets. Especially since Denver — without the Nets involved — emerges with nothing if there’s no deal. This is the fundamental problem with the (supposed) entrance of Dolan/Isiah onto the scene — their obsession with ‘Melo is making the Knicks preference of “trade” over “don’t trade” so large that our leverage is destroyed.

    This is all stuff we’ve covered already but I think its sort of an interesting analytical tool for quantifying “leverage,” which we should have in spades if the Nets exit isn’t yet another bluff.

  238. Thomas B.

    Brian Cronin:
    The only reason Carmelo Anthony is seen as a superstar is because of his stats (his points per game stats, that is).  

    Could not agree more. He is a raw numbers star–and a points per game star at that. He has never been as valuable a contributor as his “star” contemporaries. He is a one trick pony–it’s a hell of a good trick–but 1 trick nonetheless. Dave Berri talks about how fans and many GMs value raw scoring above all else. They dont care about efficiency, or contributions to wins. All they care about is how often a guy scores 30 or more. Carmelo is a very rich man thanks to this line of thinking.

    It is sad that so few people realize that Carmelo is not worth the money he gets or the assets it will take to bring him over (at least under the last rumored trade). Melo’s best WS/48 was just over .150. That is right between average (.100) and star (.200).

    I guess it is supply and demand. When no other stars are available, the closest thing to a star becomes overvalued. Shame is that today Gallinari is the more valuable asset. (Note: I did not say better player per se, just more valuable. I’ll explain it later or you could just read Stumbling on Wins)

  239. Brian Cronin

    Bobneptune, respectfully, no, its not. Despite what everyone on this board is saying. Its Melo for nothing, since Denver probably has no plans to sign WC to a long term deal after this season.

    They’re clearly either going to re-sign him or sign and trade him for assets. WC is far from nothing. Put it this way, you’re the first person anywhere who has suggested that the Nuggets plan on just letting WC walk. There would be absolutely no reason to include him in any deal if that were the case, since his salary is not needed to make the deal work.

  240. BigBlueAL

    Spare the praise for Prokho.

    The Nets have 2 of the worst, if not the 2 worst, FA signings in Outlaw and Petro. They lose Rod Thorn and replace him with Billy King. They hire Avery Johnson who has basically single-handedly destroyed their best young player in Brook Lopez (or maybe its just that Lopez was overrated before this year).

    The Nets suck and will continue to suck for a long time regardless of what happens in the next few days.

  241. Caleb

    @275-276 This is way premature… you can’t say the Knicks are blowing too many assets unless the trade actually happens. Why assume they are swayed by all the noise? There are a lot of tweets claiming the Knicks are poised to offer everyone they have, but the source is always anonymous – for all we know, it could be William Wesley. Or even Josh Kroenke.

    of course if Dolan was in Antarctica without a cell phone I’d feel better about it all.

  242. latke

    JR, I have to question your logic here. It seems that you’re saying that despite the fact that the knicks could give up less for carmelo, they should give up more?

    Here are the choices for Denver:

    1) Keep ‘Melo then let him walk and use that money to sign Chandler or whomever they please.

    2) Trade ‘Melo, have the option to resign or sign and trade chandler (he’s an RFA, so they have extra negotiating power). Pick up Corey Brewer and a draft pick. Use their free agency money to sign whomever they please. Bank an additional $17 million this season in luxury tax and salary savings.

    Denver would be crazy to take option 1.

  243. iserp

    JR Sec 112: Its Melo for nothing, since Denver probably has no plans to sign WC to a long term deal after this season

    Then, why is Chandler in all offers? His salary is quite low and irrelevant when matching salaries; and the knicks would want to keep him if Melo comes, because we are already capped out.

  244. JR Sec 112

    Fair enough. They’ll trade him for picks. My point is, he may or may not be part of the long term plan in Denver and he’s going to be expensive to keep, even if they want to. Their top priority will be resigning Nene, who will command close to max money. They already have a tough deal with Harrington. And I’m sure they would like to sign Afflalo, who has just as much, if not more potential than WC. S

  245. Garson

    Just heard MIchael Kay call Melo Top 7 or 8 player in the NBA!

    Caleb… ESPN 1050s phone number is 800-919-ESPN… please call in and rip him apart.

  246. Frank O.

    One thing is clear:

    During the two most recently cycles by which teams could improve themselves the Knicks landed Amare, and probably soon carmelo and Billups.
    The Nets have essentially got nothing.
    The Knicks are vastly improved and the Nets have cratered.
    The Russian has succeeded in doing all he could do to make the Knicks’ advancement more challenging, which he should do.
    I know Steinbrenner chased players to drive up the costs for the Sox and vice versa.

    But at the end of the day, the Knicks are moving up and the Nets are at the bottom.

    Thanks to Donnie.

  247. chrisk06811

    You have to look at this in pieces.

    1. Felton vs. billups….neither would be here long term. At best they are a push, with billups having vastly more experience.
    2. Chander: Denver can’t win. If his D’Antoni numbers are inflated, he’ll go to Denver and score 13 ppg. If he goes to Denver and maintains his current productivity, they’ll have to shell out very big bucks to sign him.
    3. Randolph / Mosgov: Potential, yes. This year, worth nothing. Is Mosgov more valuable this year than Earl Barron? nope. Is he more valuable next year, prob not. At the end of that yr, he’s 27.
    4. Gallo vs Melo: no contest. Not this year, not in 3 years.
    5. Our pick in 3 years? Should be about the 22nd pick. worthless.

    Lineup difference this year….Felton, Chandler Gallo vs Billups, Shawne / Walker combo, Melo. Not even close.

    The only thing I didn’t address is Randolph’s potential. I used to have a lot of potential. Got me nowhere.

    This is easy. Do the deal. Throw in Robert Randolph and the friggen family band too. And, if you can find a way to steal a bench guy coming back, that’s great. I’d take Luke R. for 4 years.

    Your 2011

  248. Caleb

    Just Chandler won’t cut it… Nuggets could always get him in a sign and trade after the season (the Knicks will have to cut salary, to pay Melo… Chandler, AR, Mozgov, Gallo, Fields, Turiaf and everyone else would be easy to let go or move if they want… but they have to move someone or a couple of someones, to clear the cap space). So Chandler alone is a complete wash – Denver wouldn’t bite on that, in any fantasy. The Knicks HAVE to include something else, to make a deal.

    On the low end, it could be nothing but cash savings – find a 3rd team to take on Curry’s salary, in exchange for a pick. Denver saves nothing but Carmelo’s salary. (good luck with that!). Or they send the pick to Denver, like the supposed Minnesota deal. Or Walker or Williams to someone else, maybe. Sure, better than letting him walk, but in today’s PR world, it won’t cut it.

    The Knicks have to include someone else, an actual player. Given their leverage, if it were me I would offer only one player. I’d offer Mozgov or Walker… or both, and make the Nugs take Curry. (give ‘em Azubuike and cash). Assuming it were a no, I would, last deep breath, final offer, give up Chandler + either Gallo or Randolph.

    Why? The Knicks can’t afford to eventually extend all 4 of their young guys, AND keep Stoudemire (not to mention get another FA). Someone has to go… and of the 4, I’d lose Chandler. And Gallo, while terrific, probably won’t ever be as good as Carmelo. So you’re upgrading the position. Meanwhile you keep Fields AND a (potentially) great rebounder/defender. You’ve got assets handy for a final trade if you ever need it, and you have Carmelo as magnet for 2012 free agents.

    Give up more than that, and you’re treading water at best.

    All this is pure speculation, of course… I have no idea what will really happen.

  249. Brian Cronin

    So, basically, Caleb, you’re saying don’t give up 3 out of the 4 young assets for Carmelo.

    It’s sort of like Groundhog Day in that respect. ;)

  250. Z-man

    Brian Cronin:
    The only reason Carmelo Anthony is seen as a superstar is because of his stats (his points per game stats, that is).  

    Sorry, Brian, simply not true. I have no problem with you disagreeing with those who think Melo is better than you do, but to boil it down to this is a cheap shot.

    I think that Melo is a top-20 player, a perennial all-star, a sure-fire HOFer, and a potential cornerstone player on a championship team. I also see reasons for skepticism, for example his below average defensive rating and WS48.

    I also happen to agree with you that the current deal on the table, even without Moz, is too steep of a price.

    Where I disagree with you, Ben R, THCJ and others is in how good of a player I think he is and can be. I never said he is as good as LeBron, Wade, Howard, or Durant. I do think he is as valuable as Amar’e, Bosh, and D-Will. Others that are better right now, such as Pierce, Dirk, Kobe, Ginobili, and Duncan are well past 30, and some (e.g. Dirk) were heavily criticized in their 20′s. I think he is coachable (I was never a big George Karl fan), has the talent to get better, and will be under the gun under NY’s bright lights to convince all of us that he is better than he showed in Denver and worth all that we will have given up for him.

  251. BigBlueAL

    So from what Ive read lately the only reason the Nuggets want Gallo is to trade him for draft picks because they apparently dont like him as a player at all. OK then.

  252. Kevin McElroy

    Interesting to note that Melo’s best year in terms of scoring efficiency was 2007-08 with Iverson on the team. Obviously Iverson/STAT are EXTREMELY different players but maybe we should hesitate to say that pairing ‘Melo with another ball-dominant scorer is a bad idea. Melo had a ts% of .568 and a efg% of .511 with high usage and a great free throw rate that season; if he could do that consistently this trade would seem better. Maybe having a big man who commands serious defensive attention (really for the first time in his career, with apologies to Nene and Camby) will help him get it back there from his career averages (.544 and .478 respectively).

  253. Brian Cronin

    When I say “superstar,” I mean his perception by the public as a whole. That’s where players get grouped into great players, stars, superstars, etc.

    And his position as a “superstar” is based on his points per game average.

    Same reason Allen Iverson was starting in All-Star Games until he literally could not anymore.

  254. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    JR Sec 112: TS% is not the end of all metrics.My sense is Melo’s % is lower because he is the ‘bailout option’.If there is 5 seconds left on the shot clock, give the ball to Melo and see what happens.Anyone who has watched the Knicks the last few weeks knows thats exactly what happened to Felton’s %s.  

    Your argument is unsubstantiated.

    Carmelo’s percentage of shots with the shot clock near 0: 12%

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09DEN7.HTM

    vs.

    Gallinari: 11%

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK11.HTM

    Nate Robinson: 10%

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK1.HTM

    Chandler: 11%

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK10.HTM

    et al.

    I know that we like to trust our instincts, but they’re usually wrong.

  255. Brian Cronin

    So I certainly did not mean you personally, Z-Man. It’s not like you and I are even disagreeing on much here. I was responding to the assertion by another poster (I’ve honestly forgotten who) about “stats-geeks” knocking Carmelo down, which I found amusing because it was his stats that have made him a “superstar.”

  256. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Brian Cronin: And his position as a “superstar” is based on his points per game average.

    Also, college team performance and draft position, the latter of which is linked to points per game in college.

  257. Ben R

    People need to stop treating Chandler as a throw in. Yeah his contract is expiring but whoever has that contract will have the inside track on resigning him. Chandler is putting up almost identical stats to Rudy Gay last year, despite stuggling with injuries and trade rumors. Last year was also Rudy’s 4th year at age 23. It is kinda amazing how similar Chandler is this year to Rudy last year. Rudy did get overpaid last summer but there aren’t many people who would say that Rudy Gay is a throw in. Chandler is or at least should be seen as a huge part of this trade.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=chandwi01&y1=2011&p2=gayru01&y2=2010

  258. Caleb

    @291 well, yes, but worth going through the reasoning. I hope :)

    The point being, you need to include Chandler just to get to the starting line – otherwise we are likely losing him for nothing, anyway. The second player, whether it’s Shawne Williams or Landry Fields, is where the bidding starts.

  259. NateRobinson

    His perception as an All Star is based on the never wrong eye test. The guy can score, score and score some more with the best. He has the MOST triple threat moves with a superior jumper.

    Is it what we need? not really

    But when it comes to crunch time, I would certainly prefer him taking a shot than watching Felton for the umpteenth time attempt a horrible shot thinking hes all so great…

    But dont get me wrong, I do not want this trade to happen. I rather not have him at all than not have a chance at getting DWill/Paul as well.

  260. Brian Cronin

    Definitely, Ben, WC is one of the Knicks’ four good young assets. And they shouldn’t have to deal more than two of them to get Melo.

  261. NateRobinson

    Also, since Wilson is a RFA if this trade does not happen would you guys be inclined in SnT him to a team for a pick(s)?

  262. Caleb

    @300-301

    I should say — Chandler is automatically gone IF we are aiming to sign Melo as a free agent. Which I think would be reasonable.

    But sure, if melo goes to Jersey it’s no tragedy. In that case I would look hard at S&T options, to get a center… or save cap space by getting a draft pick. But if you can keep his salary under $8-9 million, he’s got value and you could always move him later.

    quoting myself here, @117

    Caleb: Wilson Chandler at age 23…
    How many 23-year-olds have:
    a. Played more than 1700 minutes (Chandler=1759, so far)
    b. Scored more than 18 points per 40 minutes (Chandler=19.1)
    c. Had a TS% between 53 and 56 (Chandler=54.8)
    d. Had a rebound rate between 9 and 11 (Chandler=9.7)
    e. Blocked more than 1.2 shots per 36 minutes (Chandler=1.43)
    Answer: Glenn Robinson, Rashard Lewis, Jeff Green, Eddie Johnson, Bob Dandridge, Mark Aguirre, Derrick McKey, Clyde Drexler, Thurl Bailey, Andrea Bargnani, Rodney Rogers, Corliss Williamson, Louis Orr and Wilson Chandler.
    A better – and burlier – list than I would have guessed. Although, if you set an upper limits for points/minute, you eliminate Aguirre and Eddie Johnson, which makes a lot more sense.   

  263. Brian Cronin

    Also, since Wilson is a RFA if this trade does not happen would you guys be inclined in SnT him to a team for a pick(s)?

    If he sticks around, I wouldn’t want them to deal him for picks, no. I wouldn’t mind them signing and trading him for a useful player, but not for a pick. If he can’t bring in a player in a sign and trade I would prefer them to keep him. If he continues to develop, WC at $8-9 million (no way he gets into double digits with the way he’s been playing since the trade rumors started) is still a very valuable trade chip for a 2012 free agent.

  264. hoolahoop

    THIS DEAL SUCKS!
    1- Carmelo is showing his character. He doesn’t care what the knicks give up as long as he gets his money. He’s not team player, never was. Carmelo will NEVER win a championship.
    2 – Knicks are Knuts. They’re obviously giving up far too much. This deal sucks. There are other, better, ways to build a championship team. Put the right pieces together. If there’s one thing I learned in my many years, there are always new opportunities that present themselvs. Never make a deal from a panic state.
    3 – The Nuggets and the Nets have clearly set up the knocks and dumbo dolan. Nets owner was quoted as saying he’s glad he got the knicks to pay so much. Denver and Nets will make a trade that makes knocks look stupid.

  265. JR Sec 112

    HCJ, Melo is assisted on 49% of those last 10 sec shots vs. Gallo at 70%. so I would suggest the quality of those shots are different (open look created by teammate vs. shot created by Melo). WC is a closer comp, but still assisted on more and gets to the line half as much.

  266. Brian Cronin

    Carmelo is showing his character. He doesn’t care what the knicks give up as long as he gets his money. He’s not team player, never was. Carmelo will NEVER win a championship.

    He is only showing the same character that pretty much every NBA player has always shown in the history of the game – no one wants to leave substantial money on the table. I know I sure wouldn’t, and I imagine you wouldn’t, either. Especially since Melo likely feels that the players the Knicks are losing won’t really matter once he and Amar’e team-up.

    I don’t like the proposed trade at all (and I really don’t like the rumored expansion of the proposed trade), but I think it is unfair to question Melo’s character over this. He’s doing the same thing pretty much everyone would do.

  267. hoolahoop

    The knicks played their hand terribly. They locked in on Denver and negotiated against themselves. They should have gone to every other team to see what type of deal they could get, then told Denver to come down to earth or they’ll make one of these other deals. That would put the pressure is on Denver not to lose the Knicks.

  268. TheRant

    Kevin McElroy: Not saying the Nets will get anything out of it but if it’s a zero-sum thing with the Knicks he is getting them to either bleed more assets or get burned by lots of their fans for not making a trade they wanted them to make. So insofar as his goal is to hassle the Knicks, it’s working.

    Is it “brilliant?” That might be too strong a word but the contrast in the way he and Dolan’s images have fared this week is pretty stark, I would say.

    I’m not going to sing the praises of Prokhorov, nor will I damn him. I think he’s done a good job on his end of the negotiations, basically stringing NY along and getting them to put too much into the kitty.

    But Prokhorov is playing an entirely different ball game than Walsh and Dolan.

    We know what Donnie wants — he’s trying to take a .500 team with some youngsters and improve it. He wants to acquire a great player (albeit an imperfect one for his system, but one who is available and who wants to play with us) while managing cap space and setting the team up for another trade which will bring in a third star.

    Of course Prokhorov wants to make the Nets better too, which isn’t hard because they suck right now. But he has bigger fish to fry. The Nets are moving to a new arena in Brooklyn for fall 2012 or perhaps fall 2013. That means almost a complete turnover in fan base and season ticket holders.

    So Prokhorov needs a name star at any cost and he needs them by this summer at the latest. Perhaps this new talk of landing Gallo or Mozgov is a sneaky way of trying to draw interest across the river from disgruntled Knicks fans.

    All this to say he isn’t worried about chemistry or coaching. That’s a 2015 problem for him. What he needs now, as stated, is to get the Knicks to look bumbling, get the Nets to look like the future, and to get a few names up on his shiny new marquee.

  269. TheRant

    hoolahoop: I think we should trade Dolan for the owner of the Nuggets.

    I’d trade Dolan for Balkman. Let Watson run the team and teach Balkman to play blues guitar.

  270. KnicksFanInVA

    I don’t understand how NJ could even trade for Gallo or Mozgov if we traded both of them to Denver. I thought players can’t get re-traded for a while?

    Does it mean they want to do a 3-way trade?

  271. Brian Cronin

    I thought players can’t get re-traded for a while?

    The restrictions involve being traded to the team that you were just traded from as well as trading newly-signed free agents. There would be no restriction to keep them from moving Gallo and Mozgov a day later (remember, Atlanta traded for Rasheed Wallace and then dealt him to Detroit a few days later).

  272. Kevin McElroy

    If this goes down we have a lot of comedy walking out the door between Gallo’s hair and stories like this:

    @MSGTina
    Tina Cervasio

    #Knicks Mozgov was told “you may be most important player in #NBA because ur holding up this trade..” He said “Thank you!”

  273. KnicksFanInVA

    Brian Cronin:
    The restrictions involve being traded to the team that you were just traded from as well as trading newly-signed free agents. There would be no restriction to keep them from moving Gallo and Mozgov a day later (remember, Atlanta traded for Rasheed Wallace and then dealt him to Detroit a few days later).  

    Good point! Another lopsided trade! Didn’t they get Rasheed for a few bench players and a draft pick?

    We continue to get fleeced!

  274. Brian Cronin

    Good point! Another lopsided trade! Didn’t they get Rasheed for a few bench players and a draft pick?

    We continue to get fleeced!

    What’s interesting is that Atlanta gave up a fairly reasonable haul to get Wallace (Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Theo Ratliff), but then got absolute garbage when they dealt him. Luckily for them, the first rounder they got at least turned into Josh Smith.

  275. hoolahoop

    Brian Cronin:
    He is only showing the same character that pretty much every NBA player has always shown in the history of the game – no one wants to leave substantial money on the table. I know I sure wouldn’t, and I imagine you wouldn’t, either. Especially since Melo likely feels that the players the Knicks are losing won’t really matter once he and Amar’e team-up.I don’t like the proposed trade at all (and I really don’t like the rumored expansion of the proposed trade), but I think it is unfair to question Melo’s character over this. He’s doing the same thing pretty much everyone would do.   

    I agree with you. Carmelo is doing what “most” professional athletes would do. Not all. Many athletes have left big money on the table to choose their own destiny, most recent example being Cliff Lee.

    And that’s something that always perplexed me. These guys are so filthy rich, why wouldn’t they place more of a priority on going where they truly wanted instead of the highest bidder. In Melo’s case, he could have simply stated that he was not going to sign a contract extension with anyone but the knicks, otherwise he’ll go free agency. Melo probably has ten times more money than everyone on this forum combined. How much money does one frigid person need.

    Instead, his attitude is, gut the team, do whatever it takes, give me mine. I think he’s going to be the same way on the court. And, he’s not even a good fit for this team. I’d rathe have Nene than him, and keep the guys we got.

  276. snickers

    greetings- long time reader, first time poster. love the board.

    do we know for sure that donnie has offered to take carmelo with the $65M extension, or could the knicks offer conceivably be for less $$ to preserve flexibility?

  277. Brian Cronin

    Many athletes have left big money on the table to choose their own destiny, most recent example being Cliff Lee.

    Cliff Lee took a five-year deal for $120 million with an easily reachable option (he has to pitch 200 innings in 2015 or 400 over 2014/2015) for an additional $12 million for the sixth year (making it six years for $132 million) versus a seven-year deal for $148 million. He really did not leave big money on the table.

  278. Brian Cronin

    do we know for sure that donnie has offered to take carmelo with the $65M extension, or could the knicks offer conceivably be for less $$ to preserve flexibility?

    We don’t know anything about that yet. Melo sure seems to want the full amount, but it is true that the possibility exists that he will settle for more favorable terms for the Knicks.

  279. Brian Cronin

    Oh, sorry, I forgot to note that players can only be re-dealt if they are dealt by themselves. They can’t be dealt along with other players (so Gallo and Mozgov could not be dealt together). That, though, is easily gotten around (just dealing them each separately).

  280. Z-man

    Brian Cronin: So I certainly did not mean you personally, Z-Man. It’s not like you and I are even disagreeing on much here. I was responding to the assertion by another poster (I’ve honestly forgotten who) about “stats-geeks” knocking Carmelo down, which I found amusing because it was his stats that have made him a “superstar.”  

    Thanks, Brian, we mostly agree that this is a questionable deal at best and if moz is added, a poor one. I also desperately want to keep Gallo, who I believe will develop into an all-star. We also agree that there are those in the media (Michael Kay) who overrate Melo because of his rep as a scorer an his ‘Cuse success.

    Most on this board are stats-savvy, yet there is considerable disagreement even among the stats-inclined. Where we disagree is on how good we think Melo is or can be, whether playing in NY, with STAT, and/or in D’Antoni’s system will generate improvement, whether it is a more likely road to building a serious contender sooner rather than later. I also disagree with some, (THCJ?) as to perhaps whether ANY “reasonable” trade for him (e.g. Chandler, Curry, AR plus a 2014 first) is a good one, Billups vs. Felton aside. In other words, is Melo more like “subtraction by addition” players like Zach, Iverson, and Vince. All good debates. For the record, I am optimistic that Melo will develop here and Amar’e and Melo will complement each other well. As to the current proposed deal, I wouldn’t make it, too pricey.

  281. NateRobinson

    I need two things:

    1) A Delorian
    2) And some spare tires to come back from the future

    I am really tired of all this and I hope it is over with no trade happening.

  282. Z-man

    I do have concerns as to whether Melo cares about who is left on the team when he gets here, and how much room they have to improve in the next 3-4 years with all their assets gone.

  283. KnickInSeattle

    I don’t think we have a reliable idea of anybody’s thought process in this, from Dolan through Carmelo.

    We know, mostly, that Carmelo wants to be a Knick.
    And it seems like the Knicks (or at least Dolan) want him.

    Beyond that, we don’t know much, and certainly not enough to know what Melo thinks about any given trade rumor.

  284. massive

    What ever happened to Aaron Brooks? I remember him being on the block and he would be a perfect back-up PG here.

  285. snickers

    @321- some things carmelo has said in recent weeks make me think he’s actually thinking about taking less money. this would require remarkable strength of character, because by taking less, he would make enemies of everyone he sees every day. the one thing that makes it possible is the pending lockout and potential for across the board reductions. this would give him cover. when future players have less, he wouldn’t be the bad guy.

  286. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I’m going to call it, and bookmark this shit, because I’m tired of calling things (Fields, DeJuan Blair, Ty Lawson being awesome; Felton being a bad signing; Amar’e being unable to turn the Knicks into a top playoff seed and being a product of the Anti-Aging Nash Machine) and still being opposed when it comes to common sense statistical stuff:

    Signing or trading for Carmelo is a risk. Carmelo has never shown (even in the season in which the Nuggets made the WCF) to be a top-20 player (I might argue top-30), and there is no evidence that suggests that he’ll improve to a max-worthy player by playing with a (former) high efficiency player like Amar’e. Nene, you may recall, is a similar player (although the significantly lower usage rate may damage that argument).

    If traded, Carmelo will be the centerpiece of a team that, barring injuries, will struggle to 50 wins next season, and be a sitting duck in the first round of playoffs for teams like Miami and Chicago who turned high draft picks into efficient players and waited for the right pieces in free agency.

    Carmelo’s signing is all about risk. It’s not about continuation of high-level play — it’s about speculation as to whether he can be the player that he’s touted as. And selling the farm for that kind of risk reeks of Isiah, and I hope you’re all happy when the ship is in flames and we have a 33-year-old PF with bad knees that we’re looking to unload as an expiring and an unhappy “superstar” who is unloaded for peanuts to a team like the ’07 Celts where he’s finally surrounded by the efficient players he needs to be successful.

    It’s a risky proposition, and that’s foolish. Risk has no place in a league that guarantees its contracts and allows incompetent management and ownership to allocate 30% of a team’s on-court resources to one player alone. Carmelo will end the Knicks re-ascent before it finishes one season.

  287. Nick C.

    Maybe not so strongly but my thoughts are the same as THCJ. whoever wad talking about Michael Kay thanks. I thought I was the only one sick of listening to his blather.

  288. latke

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: And selling the farm for that kind of risk reeks of Isiah, and I hope you’re all happy when the ship is in flames

    I think about 98% of the people on this blog agree with you, Cock Jowles, especially in regard to the deal currently on the table. Most of the people in favor of (or ambivalent to) making a smaller deal for ‘melo rationalize it as increasing our opportunity at getting a third star (speculation of course), along the plain fact that if this doesn’t work out, ‘Melo will still have the label of “star” and thus still be tradable.

  289. danvt

    @333
    Most important stat about Melo is his lead role on a team that routinely makes the playoffs in what has been a dominant western conference. He won a national title in a lead role at Syracuse as a freshman. This is where he earned his significant reputation. Not based on ppg.

    I was told (ages ago in this thread). Essentially “who cares!” if Philadelphia overtakes us. No, I had Duhon for two years so I could have some fun this year. I want the 6th seed and to win some post season games.

    In other words, I want to improve right now. I want the top 30 player (still very good) and I want to kill Andrew Bogut. But I also want to be able to keep getting better.

    Does this deal mean no more max deals for the life of Melo and Amar’e's deals?

  290. Kevin McElroy

    Linked to Zach Lowe on my Twitter (@knickerbacker) and i’ll put the link here too:

    http://bit.ly/f23ZtM

    I think this is one of the only articles I’ve seen about the trade that pays adequate attention to its positives and negatives on both ends. And honestly, I’m coming to the conclusion that it probably is a pretty fair trade both ways (only because, as has been mentioned ad nauseum, we’re not bringing WC back anyway).

  291. John Kenney

    If the nets trading for our players thing is true, I hope WC ends up in Jersey. I like him, feel bad for how he’s been playing knowing he’s doomed, and want him to enjoy being on the East Coast

  292. Frank

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’m going to call it, and bookmark this shit, because I’m tired of calling things (Fields, DeJuan Blair, Ty Lawson being awesome; Felton being a bad signing; Amar’e being unable to turn the Knicks into a top playoff seed and being a product of the Anti-Aging Nash Machine) and still being opposed when it comes to common sense statistical stuff

    Dude, I agree that this is not a deal I would like to make as currently (allegedly) constructed, but you need to get off your high horse. If Ty Lawson and Dejuan Blair are your idea of “awesome” then there exists no word in the english dictionary that can describe how ridiculously good Carmelo Anthony is. And this has nothing to do with Melo. Ty Lawson is a nice player and I’d like to have him on the Knicks, but at the end of the day, he’s a 5’11″ PG who is not even starting on his team. Sure, maybe I wish we’d drafted him instead of Jordan Hill, but can you remember the last team that won a championship with a PG less than 6″? I’m sure you’d find yourself in the 70s or before. And Blair? He’s the 5th best starter on the Spurs. Sure he rebounds well but is he really that much better than Reggie Evans?

    And no one thought that Amare was going to turn the Knicks into a team that could seriously compete with Miami, Boston, or Chicago. The fact that you thought so also doesn’t make me feel like I MUST believe you about Melo. And I can’t find your post about Fields, but if you tell me now that you predicted he’d be the 2nd best rookie in the league this year, then you’re lying.

    Look, very few people on this board want to give up as much as is rumored for Melo. But unless he slept with your sister, there’s just no reason for the venom you throw his direction. If we were giving up Curry/Chandler/Randolph I’d be fine with it. + Gallo and I’m +/- on it…

  293. bobneptune

    maybe it’s the bronx in me but in my machivellian dreams i see this bad kabuki theater ending thusly:

    melo waltzes into kronke’s office today and says, you know what, the best solution is if i stay the next 4 years. extend me.

    the moment the ink is dry on the contract, he turns to the kronkes and says,” now trade me to the nix or i’ll lay down and ruin your franchise for the next 4 years. say hello to eddie curry.”

  294. Frank

    Kevin McElroy: Linked to Zach Lowe on my Twitter (@knickerbacker) and i’ll put the link here too:http://bit.ly/f23ZtMI think this is one of the only articles I’ve seen about the trade that pays adequate attention to its positives and negatives on both ends.And honestly, I’m coming to the conclusion that it probably is a pretty fair trade both ways (only because, as has been mentioned ad nauseum, we’re not bringing WC back anyway).  

    It IS a fair trade when evaluated in a vacuum- but this is not a vacuum. In mine and many others’ humble opinion, Melo WILL NOT sign an extension with NJ no matter what, and he WILL NOT sign an extension with Denver. If he does sign with NJ, then he’s only about his $65M and not about winning, and if that’s the case, eff him and enjoy getting shot at in Newark for the next 1.5+ years. If he resigns with Denver which seems unbelievably unlikely, then good for him – they actually have a good team – but it’s not going to happen after all this. So this leaves us with bidding against ourselves. And in this situation, a FAIR offer is a stupid one. I can only imagine what Phil Ivey thinks of how the NYK have played an obvious winning hand. My only hope is that Donnie starts putting the screws to them by lessening the offer the closer we get to the deadline. But that’s just wishful thinking.

  295. Frank

    btw – I actually am an AR fan, but you can see what Denver thinks of him — they’d rather avoid fat Curry’s contract then get AR at the low point of his value.

  296. Kevin McElroy

    Frank-

    Not to be a pest and jump on a minor point of your comment but your thought about short PGs intrigued me so I looked it up. The answer is Avery Johnson on the 1999 Spurs (he’s 5’11″). Before that its Slater Martin on the 1958 St. Louis Hawks. Don’t know if there’s actual causality there (might just be that there are not a ton of sub 6 foot pg’s in general) but it was fun to look up.

  297. Tyler Murray

    bobneptune: maybe it’s the bronx in me but in my machivellian dreams i see this bad kabuki theater ending thusly:melo waltzes into kronke’s office today and says, you know what, the best solution is if i stay the next 4 years. extend me.the moment the ink is dry on the contract, he turns to the kronkes and says,” now trade me to the nix or i’ll lay down and ruin your franchise for the next 4 years. say hello to eddie curry.”  

    They’d just trade him to the Nets if he signed the extension…

  298. latke

    Frank: Sure [Blair] rebounds well but is he really that much better than Reggie Evans?

    Reggie Evans wins produced/48: .362 (7th in the league among players who have played more than 400 minutes this season)
    DeJuan Blair wins produced/48: .202

    THCJ thinks highly of WoW, so I think he’d say that if Evans could produce the same per minute numbers without getting into foul trouble he would be better than Blair and Carmelo.

    This season, Evans PT as it relates to wins supports WoW’s validity. In games where he’s played over 25 minutes, the Raptors are 6-6 (with wins against Boston, Orlando, 2x Philly and the Cavs (before they had injury problems)). Without him they are a horrid 9-35.

  299. totti

    i was on a nets blog…
    most of them are absolutely happy to get gallo and mozgov for picks.

    in case it is true

    just imagine if knicks loose with nets next game
    wow

  300. bobneptune

    Tyler Murray:
    They’d just trade him to the Nets if he signed the extension…  

    i’m assuming melo would hold a press conference saying,”i had a deal with denver to be traded to the nix and now they are trying to trade me elsewhere to screw me.. i won’t be happy going anywhere else.”

    the nba has rules about players demanding a trade, but they don’t have any about a player demanding not to be traded. :-)

    nobody is giving 4 picks and a lottery pick for a guy who is telling you in english he’s planning on laying down for 20 million a year.

  301. Jafa

    I’m fully convinced now that I don’t want Melo for the Knicks at this time.

    You mean these guys in Denver with no leverage are going to fleece us for our young players and then ship them to the Nets so we can watch them develop into what we think they will develop into while we suffer in 2nd round purgatory because our 2 stars make so much money there isn’t any to offer to a third star and the two of them are not enough to get by Miami while Denver rebuilds with all those picks,the Russian laughs at us in our own market and Riley just keeps laughing at us as he accumulates more rings than fingers? If Melo isn’t willing to wait for what he wants then they can have him.

    I DO NOT WANT MELO! Who’s with me?

  302. daJudge

    Frank and others—-if Melo wants to play for us, then why didn’t he just say he would not extend with the Nets? That would have ended the stupid drama and would have provided us a huge bargaining advantage. The only reason that I can fathom is that his agent is concerned with the new CBA and is doing his job. If any of you were properly advising a client, you would certainly paint the doomsday scenario. The scenario is simple—Denver says no to the Knicks, Melo says no to the Nets and potentially loses a lot of $$$ as a free agent under the new CBA. That is possible. IMO, Melo is concerned with losing the dough and thus he has not simply said, “if I’m not a Knick, then I’m a FA.” That is the only reason justifying his reticence, which has greatly weakened our negotiating position. In fact, it has undercut our position and an assumption which I had been laboring under for awhile. This raises another more serious issue for me. If you really want to do something in your life; achieve something and create history, there is usually some sacrifice involved. Maybe some of you have taken jobs for less $$$ to achieve a more concrete and perhaps more important goal than money. If Melo really wants to come to NYC and shine as a Knick, I don’t think the risk of not earning quite as much (he’ll still be a multi-millionaire, mind you) is really a risk at all. It’s not exactly like he’s taking off a year to volunteer in Darfur. Perhaps some of you teach kids at an urban school and earn less than at a private school, or represent the poor and earn less than a corporate lawyer, or followed your dreams and earn less, instead of just going for the bucks. Why can’t one freak’in (sorry profanity) athlete do this, while still being rich beyond most of our wildest dreams? This whole thing is getting me sick and bumming me out big time. Maybe Melo needs to take some very small risk.

  303. Z-man

    Frank, I think there is one chip too many in the current deal, and would be happy getting either the Gallo, the 2014 pick, Chandler, or AR back, in that order. If the deal is made as is, I won’t be thrilled, but to conclude that “the ship will be in flames” because we gave up one of these pieces is only likely if Isiah is handed the torch…pun intended.

  304. hoolahoop

    Jafa: I’m fully convinced now that I don’t want Melo for the Knicks at this time.You mean these guys in Denver with no leverage are going to fleece us for our young players and then ship them to the Nets so we can watch them develop into what we think they will develop into while we suffer in 2nd round purgatory because our 2 stars make so much money there isn’t any to offer to a third star and the two of them are not enough to get by Miami while Denver rebuilds with all those picks,the Russian laughs at us in our own market and Riley just keeps laughing at us as he accumulates more rings than fingers?If Melo isn’t willing to wait for what he wants then they can have him.I DO NOT WANT MELO!Who’s with me?  

    Exactly

  305. hoolahoop

    daJudge: Frank and others—-if Melo wants to play for us, then why didn’t he just say he would not extend with the Nets?That would have ended the stupid drama and would have provided us a huge bargaining advantage………..Why can’t one freak’in (sorry profanity) athlete do this, while still being rich beyond most of our wildest dreams?This whole thing is getting me sick and bumming me out big time.Maybe Melo needs to take some very small risk.  

    Are you crazy? How is he supposed to get by on $15 million a year?

  306. d-mar

    If the deal is as imminent as some are saying, then the Knicks obviously didn’t renegotiate, if anything, they may have caved on the Mozgov part (but I hope not) Guys, until we get the post mortem, we really have no idea what happened. On the surface, it looks like the Knicks got played, and the Nets whole motivation was just to make the deal hurt more for the Knicks, but who knows?

    I know I’m in the minority, but I for one am very excited to see Melo in a Knicks uniform. It’s step 2 in a 3 step process, when D-Will or CP3 joins us in 2012, Gallo, Felton, etc, will be distant memories. (and I know about the cap issue in 2012, I just have a feeling the Knicks will figure out a way to get one of those guys)

  307. Frank O.

    Hahn tweet:

    Source tells Newsday after Knicks-Nuggets talked today, Carmelo Anthony trade expected to be finalized tomorrow.

  308. Caleb

    no news in that article – beyond Melo being out of practice. Who the Knicks are giving up is still speculation based on the Yahoo articles, which are based on anonymous sources during the time when everyone and their mom was trying to jack up the price.

    I’m as anxious as anyone but we do NOT know the terms of the offer based on articles that just repeat the same rumors

  309. Robert Silverman

    I can’t believe I’m saying this, but as long as Moz is still here, I won’t be totally devastated

  310. BigBlueAL

    Honestly guys, its not fair for any of us to criticize someone for wanting as much money as he can get regardless of how much money it is.

    Im broke as shit too so it aint like I make alot of money and Im like yeah get all you can!! lol

  311. cgreene

    Robert Silverman: I can’t believe I’m saying this, but as long as Moz is still here, I won’t be totally devastated  

    I laughed really hard when I read that and not in a sarcastic way either.

  312. Frank O.

    Robert Silverman: I can’t believe I’m saying this, but as long as Moz is still here, I won’t be totally devastated  

    Said in the voice of Maggie Pollitt.
    I don’t know…it just seemed dramatic like that…:)

  313. hoolahoop

    Dolan makes me sick to my stomach. In a situation which Denver had absolutely no leverage, they turned it around into one that the knicks acted like they had no leverage. As soon as Dolan said he is getting involved I knew it was bad news. And now the players we’ve grown to love will be playing for the Nets. We got fleeced. I already dislike Carmelo, another selfish a-hole superstar.

  314. Robert Silverman

    Frank O.:
    Said in the voice of Maggie Pollitt.
    I don’t know…it just seemed dramatic like that…:)  

    For all you non-theater dorks (like me) in KB-land, Frank’s referring to the Maggie the Cat character from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, by Tennessee Williams. And yes, I feel as put-upon as Liz Taylor at this moment.

    Heavens to Betsy!

  315. Frank

    Well THCJ – I really hope that you and your high horse are wrong, and that Melo can not be a ball-stopper, score more efficiently, and play some defense, ’cause it sure seems like we’ll find out pretty soon.

    I really hope we keep Mozgov too – kid shows flashes of being a pretty good player. Otherwise it’ll be Turiaf and probably the Earl of Barron holding down the middle – can’t say that makes me feel good about our future chances.

  316. Frank

    I kind of feel like that rumor re: Gallo/Mozgov going to the Nets was just a little knife-twisting by Prokhorov. I can’t imagine that being good value unless it’s totally unprotected NJ picks – which I can’t imagine NJ would be dumb enough to do.

  317. Frank O.

    Carmelo announces on Conan he will only permit a trade to the Knicks if the they trade their entire team for him to show the love.

  318. Frank

    Wojnarowski is twittering that NJ is already talking about a 3-way deal sending Devin Harris to Dal and Mozgov/Felton to NJ. Boy would i feel awful for Felton.

    really makes no sense. Mozgov and Brook Lopez?

    BTW Twitter is the worst thing that happened to journalism and to my sanity.

  319. Ben R

    The D-Will or CP3 in 2012 feels an awful lot like when Isiah would constantly defend his moves as part of a bigger plan. “Yeah I know this move looks bad and shortsighted now but you just wait when it all comes together no one will be disappointed”.

    Frankly I don’t buy it. I see no forseeable way we get either of those players in 2012. With Melo and Amare making $42+ million a year and very few tradeable assets I don’t see how it happens. We won’t be able to sign them outright because if anything the cap will shrink after the new CBA, not grow, and I don’t see either of them leaving 10 million a year on the table just to sign with us. I also don’t see a trade or sign and trade happening because I seriously doubt that Fields and Mozgov will be enough to get Utah or NO to bite. We will never have as much leverage as we just had and it took a huge pile of assets to get Carmelo and Carmelo isn’t even as good as D-Will or CP3.

    This is it. This is our team: Billups, Fields, Melo, Amare, Mozgov. Probably better than what we have now, maybe better than what we would have become, but that’s it. A small piece here or there to round out the bench but no flexability to make major moves. Atlanta Hawks part 2.

    We all better prey that this roster gets it done because I surely don’t think it will, and now time is not on our side. Our best player is 28, our 2nd best 26, but our third best is 34, we are no longer a young team with lots of time. The team that we take to the playoffs this year is the best team we will probably be able to field for the next 4-5 years because Billups is only going to get older and we don’t have a replacement or the money to get one.

  320. massive

    I don’t want to give them Gallo. Especially if it means sending him to New Jersey. Those devious bastards.

  321. New Guy

    BigBlueAL: Honestly guys, its not fair for any of us to criticize someone for wanting as much money as he can get regardless of how much money it is.Im broke as shit too so it aint like I make alot of money and Im like yeah get all you can!!lol  

    I hear ya, but the bottom line is we gutted our whole team so Carmelo Anthony could make $20 mil a year instead of $16 mil a year.

    So you know what? I’m going to criticize.

    When Melo was last hear in January, he talked about how all the people in NY were saying we wanted him to come here. But what he apparently missed was that we didn’t want him here at the expense of our whole team.

    He may think he’s walking in here as the savior. He isn’t. That was Amar’e. He’s the scapegoat now. He better get us out of the first round THIS YEAR, otherwise we’re no better off for making this trade now.

    And if the Knicks don’t ever win a Chip with Amar’e, it’s going to be him that’s the scapegoat.

    (That said, I’m a fickle fan who will love him the first time he drops 50. I can’t help it. I’m just sayin’.)

  322. Brian Cronin

    Wojnarowski is twittering that NJ is already talking about a 3-way deal sending Devin Harris to Dal and Mozgov/Felton to NJ.

    Wait, the Denver newspaper said no Mozgov, right?

  323. hoolahoop

    Lebron took less money for the betterment of the team. it wasn’t about money, it was about putting together a winner.
    Carmelo made sure he’s going to get paid in full, regardless of the players the knicks give up and financial constraints put on the team. This was never about winning a championship. It’s about Carmelo going to NYC to be a superstar.

  324. Jafa

    Frank: Wojnarowski is twittering that NJ is already talking about a 3-way deal sending Devin Harris to Dal and Mozgov/Felton to NJ.   

    What did we do to deserve the curse that is Isaih Thomas? Did we build MSG on a native American burial ground? Did Ewing curse us? Are we becoming the Red Sox, cursed by a stupid owner who destroyed their team and it took decades to finally overcome the curse?

    Or do I just care too much about a basketball team?

  325. hoolahoop

    Frank: I kind of feel like that rumor re: Gallo/Mozgov going to the Nets was just a little knife-twisting by Prokhorov.I can’t imagine that being good value unless it’s totally unprotected NJ picks – which I can’t imagine NJ would be dumb enough to do.  

    Are you kidding? That would be a great deal for the Nets.

  326. Frank O.

    We all have to move on from the Isiah stuff.
    It’s like a friggin’ family holiday where everyone is compartmentalizing until they all suddenly find themselves in the same compartment together and start reliving something that happened 20 years ago and acting out.

    “You know what I feel like? I feel all the time like a cat on a hot tin roof.”

  327. BigBlueAL

    OK, so latest rumors Ive read is Felton/Moz to NJ. Also one rumor says AR not being traded, wouldnt that be really interesting because you would assume playing time would definitely be there for him off the bench now.

  328. Brian Cronin

    OK, so latest rumors Ive read is Felton/Moz to NJ. Also one rumor says AR not being traded, wouldnt that be really interesting because you would assume playing time would definitely be there for him off the bench now.

    If no AR, then the deal suddenly gets a lot better.

    Unless the Knicks plan on just dumping him for garbage, keeping AR and Fields is still keeping 2 out of the 4, so I’d be okay with this trade.

    But I bet the Knicks still plan on dumping him for garbage if he is not in the Melo deal.

    Man, AR as the 4 with Melo at the 3 and Amar’e at the 5 is a pretty darn good lineup.

  329. Mulligan

    hoolahoop: Lebron took less money for the betterment of the team. it wasn’t about money, it was about putting together a winner.
    Carmelo made sure he’s going to get paid in full, regardless of the players the knicks give up and financial constraints put on the team. This was never about winning a championship. It’s about Carmelo going to NYC to be a superstar.  

    Wow. So it took this stupid trade to make Lebron look halfway likeable again…

    Not that I disagree re: Melo. He could have worked with the Knicks to make it happen one way or another, but he encouraged the trade by not discounting the Nets and now we’ve given up way more talent than necessary to get him here…

  330. DS

    Stupid, stupid, stupid.

    Denver got more than any other team in history whose star essentially demanded a trade.

    Silver linings: I am looking forward to Billups and his .634 TS% and how much it will open the floor for STAT. Though Billups does nothing
    for our championship aspirations.

    Anthony’s rebounding will be a nice upgrade over Chandler’s or Gallinari’s @ the 3.

    Also, Bosh and LeBron clearly conspired. Now ‘Melo is coming to NY. The notion that CP3 is coming to NY now seems a little less ridiculous esp. given N.O.’s precarious ownership situation.

    Keeping Randolph would help me back away from the ledge a bit…

  331. Frank

    @381 – as much as I love Gallo, the Nets have a pretty reasonable shot at a top 3 pick in this year’s draft, certainly a top 5 pick. I think most teams would rather have a top 3-5 pick with the full rookie contract than a guy who will be a RFA after the 2011-2012 season.

    And Mozgov certainly isn’t worth an unprotected pick right now.

  332. DS

    BBA, where’s the latest rumor?

    Why does ESPN report anything every shady “source” says and then say nothing when the F****ng Denver Post reports that a trade is imminent??

  333. Frank

    Is it too much to hope that Melo is willing to take less money so that D-Will or CP3 can make more money when/if they come in ’12?

    Never mind, stupid question.

  334. Brian Cronin

    If the compromise was giving them Mozgov and pulling back AR (for a reason other than dumping him for garbage), that’s a really good compromise.

    Billups
    Fields
    Melo
    AR
    Amar’e

    with a bench of

    Toney
    Extra E
    Walker
    Turiaf
    Sheldon Williams
    Barron

    I could totally get behind that team. I just fear the next tweet saying AR is included (or the Knicks have dealt him in a separate deal).

  335. DS

    @382 – I hear you on the Isiah stuff… it’s just hard when we’re about to cash in our entire youth movement for a tall Allen Iverson.

    It just stinks of Isiah even w/o palpable evidence!!

  336. BigBlueAL

    OK so everyone is confirming the deal is done. Problem is nobody confirming the actual players in the trade other than Melo.

  337. New Guy

    I’m not buying the Isiah stuff anymore, and I think the article Mike wrote that we’re all posting under does a good job of debunking it.

    It’s not unlike Walsh to blink. He showed last year that he’s willing to overpay in these situations.

  338. Mulligan

    I wonder if we’d do a lineup of

    Billups
    Douglas
    Fields
    Melo
    Amare

    with AR coming off the bench? Definitely need to find a halfway decent backup PG somewhere though…

  339. Frank O.

    Denver post reports:

    The Nuggets traded Melo to the New York Knicks tonight, a league source said. Denver gets Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick, the Warriors’ 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors’ 2013 second-round pick and $3 million in cash.
    Anthony will go to New York, along with Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman.
    Anthony was not at the Nuggets’ practice as the team resumed workouts following the All-Star break.

    Read more: Carmelo Anthony traded to New York Knicks in blockbuster deal – The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_17443219#ixzz1EebxiPSv
    Read The Denver Post’s Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

  340. Brian Cronin

    All those folks who love Balkman get another shot to see if he can avoid being stoned during practices

    If they kept AR, those two could have a lot of fun together on the bench.

  341. Frank O.

    If they are getting all the warriors picks, what the hell did the Knicks give them to get those picks to Denver???

  342. Mulligan

    Frank O.: If they are getting all the warriors picks, what the hell did the Knicks give them to get those picks to Denver???  

    From the Lee trade.

  343. Caleb

    @390 From the Nuggets perspective, it would be a question of: would we rather have Mozgov, or save $15 million (by dumping Curry on Minnesota, eliminating pretty much their whole luxury tax bill). All pure speculation, but if that IS the deal it could be they felt that moving Billups was enough to meet their money-saving goal.

    If the Knicks somehow survive with Randolph and Fields, I’m not gonna complain. They’d be in just as good position as they are now – just closer to the completed project. AR and Fields are 21 years old each, with All-Star potential… and not bad now.

    Mozgov is ok but I have to say – I would hate losing Mozgov the personality, more than losing Mozgov the player.

  344. Frank O.

    From Hahn tweet:

    The trade, which includes Randolph and Curry going to Minnesota, means Knicks open up two roster spots. Will need to get a big.

  345. Mulligan

    Well, now that we’ve lost AR too, I’m not a huge fan of this trade.

    Still think Billups & Douglas could start together, with Anthony Carter serving as backup. Or, maybe Azu is ready to roll? That could make a big difference for this team.

  346. hoolahoop

    I hate to lose Mozgov. I thought he showed huge potential. In the little AR has played, I saw an athletic idiot.

  347. d-mar

    Ignore #413 end of article says Randolph and Curry to Minnesota.

    Who’s left? Stat, Fields and Dan D’Antoni?

  348. Frank

    Mulligan: Well, now that we’ve lost AR too, I’m not a huge fan of this trade.
    Still think Billups & Douglas could start together, with Anthony Carter serving as backup. Or, maybe Azu is ready to roll? That could make a big difference for this team.  

    Um – there is a guy named Landry Fields who might start.

    Billups, Fields, Melo, STAT, Turiaf? or Shelden Williams?
    Bench – Toney, Extra E, Walker, Turiaf/Shelden

    meh.
    not terrible but not nearly enough front-court depth.
    Hahn brought up an interesting idea — Rasheed Wallace?

  349. Brian Cronin

    Why does Hahn’s tweet contradict the Denver Post article in terms of Randolph? Man, I hope he’s wrong.

    It doesn’t. The Post was just telling the players going between Denver and New York. The deal requires Curry’s salary, so he was traded with AR in a separate part of the deal.

  350. Frank O.

    Excellent!
    Balkman has played 18 games in the past two years.
    He’s a skinny Jerome James.

    But wait. His TS% is .604 and his eFG% is .506!
    Man, if only they would play him full time he’d carry over that kind of efficiency. I mean, how crazy that he’s not playing 30 minutes a game.

    Wait, wait. Sorry. I thought for a moment it was 2006.
    *sigh*

  351. Brian Cronin

    won’t Earl Barron be the starting C?

    Not sure if that’s sarcastic or not. But Turiaf would certainly start over Barron, right?

  352. d-mar

    You know, I’ve been in favor of getting Melo all along, but I feel kind of violated now. Denver kept asking for more, more, more and we kept saying yes, yes, yes. I still say we need to see the post mortem to understand how this all shook out, but Nuggets fans should be erecting a statue of their owner in front of the Pepsi Center.

  353. Brian Cronin

    Man, if only they would play him full time he’d carry over that kind of efficiency. I mean, how crazy that he’s not playing 30 minutes a game.

    What’s funny is that the one game they gave him extended minutes this year (Melo missed the game) he responded with a strong game in his 18 minutes played in a Denver win.

  354. Frank O.

    Brian Cronin:
    What’s funny is that the one game they gave him extended minutes this year (Melo missed the game) he responded with a strong game in his 18 minutes played in a Denver win.  

    Put down the doobie, Brian.
    Don’t pass it to Renaldo, tho. He’ll need his wind in Mike D’s offense.

  355. hoolahoop

    Billups
    Fields
    Melo
    Amare
    ????

    Mozgov would look great there, but he’s gone. AR, no way.
    Knicks need a solid big who can rebound, defend and enforce….just like we did before this trade.
    How’s Billups going to run in D’antoni’s SSOL. It’s not his style and he’s too old for that game. Melo’s a half-court player too.
    Guys, we may have seen the most fun Knick team we’ll see in a long long time. It was a lot of fun routing for the kids. They played hard.
    Gallo’s on the phone with his mom now, crying in italian.

  356. Jafa

    Great! So we are now Denver East, poised to do about as well as Denver West did. This is what we waited 2 years for?

  357. Frank

    well now that the shock of the trade has gone, i’m feeling slightly better about it.

    Shelden Williams, while totally unexciting, may actually represent Mozgov’s career. Crappy hands, reasonable defender, limited player. I think the dude is hilarious but the chance that he becomes any more than an average center is pretty low. And he brings tough post defense and his career 16.8 rebound rate. He’s a top 10 rebound rate for this year.

    Looking forward – if our goal is really to go for D-Will or CP3 (or any other big FA after 2011-2012), we probably would have had to renounce Mozgov anyway. Right now we’ll probably have about $42M committed (Melo/Stat/Balkman) but otherwise be totally open. Billups’s contract will be somewhat useful hopefully.

    Man is the cupboard bare though. We need Fields to really grow up fast.

    Just can’t believe we gave up this much. Ujiri should win exec of the year for this.

    And Donnie should quit. He doesn’t deserve this.

  358. Frank O.

    I mourning a bit now.

    Hahn’s tweets are like someone saying at the wake, life goes on:

    Knicks have 2 of the top 6 scorers in NBA w/ Amar’e (26.1 ppg) and Carmelo (25.2 ppg). Join Heat (LeBron/Wade) as only teams with 2 in top 6

    and

    Billups contract becomes valuable in 2012 as expiring at $14.2M to use in that scenario. But Knicks need to replenish assets quickly.

  359. Brian Cronin

    You know what the most pathetic part of this utterly pathetic deal is?

    The Knicks couldn’t even get a first rounder for AR. They ruined him to the point where they couldn’t even get Minnesota to kick in a first rounder. So Minnesota got him just for facilitating the trade. Instead, the Knicks had to throw in the two second rounders they got from the David Lee deal (I didn’t even know they had them).

    That’s truly and utterly pathetic.

    They gave up AR just to save Denver a bigger luxury tax bill.

  360. Frank

    Sorry totally mixed my Shelden/Mozgov thing. Mozgov has probably limited upside. Williams has the career 16.8 rebound rate and is at 18.5 rebound rate this season.

  361. Frank

    Jafa: Great! So we are now Denver East, poised to do about as well as Denver West did.This is what we waited 2 years for?  

    Well, let’s just hope that STAT is better than Nene and Kenyon Martin put together, and that Fields is much better than Afflalo. Probably true actually.

  362. steveoh

    We did pay too much. But when you want to negotiate, you find the biggest rube in the room and invite him in. James Dolan is always that rube. SMH and FML.

  363. Brian Cronin

    Brousard tweets that brewer comes to Knicks to complete deal with Minn..

    Thanks!

    How does Brewer make sense with the current Knick roster, though? Perhaps another trade still to come?

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