Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, September 20, 2018

Knicks recall Lin, Jordan from D-League

It’s being bellowed across the Twitterscape that recent D-League castoffs Jeremy Lin and Jerome Jordan will be recalled back to the big leagues.

While I’d love to tell you Lin and Jordan turned a career corner during their Erie fortnight, really the Knicks needed two more bodies to conduct full schrimmages — why with half the squad nursing nagging injuries, Josh Harrellson expected to miss at least six weeks with a fractured wrist, and Baron Davis reportedly ready for burn.

A quick look at Lin’s career numbers in Erie that he’ll easily go down as the greatest player in that league’s history. The dude averaged a triple double!

…. Sorry, there was a chunk of sneezed Corn Flake on my screen over the “GP” column. My B.

Still, a triple double in your first D-League game? That has to be promising, right? No? Ok.

Jordan, meanwhile, didn’t look too shabby himself.

…Oh, and Stephen A. Smith is “reporting” — you know what, let’s just call it Stephorting from now on — that the Magic have lately inquired about a trade that would bring Dwight Howard to the Knicks, with Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler heading South to Orlando. So there’s that.

76 comments on “Knicks recall Lin, Jordan from D-League

  1. ess-dog

    “…Oh, and Stephen A. Smith is “reporting” — you know what, let’s just call it Stephorting from now on — that the Magic have lately inquired about a trade that would bring Dwight Howard to the Knicks, with Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler heading South to Orlando. So there’s that.”

    I love Stat and Tyson to death, but how do you not do that trade if it’s for real? How do you do the Melo trade and not that trade???

  2. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    90 days i thought

    Yeah, 90 days or December 15th, whichever is later. In this case, since the season didn’t start until December 25th, the former is obviously going to be later. So 90 days would be….what? March 10th? Just in time for the March 15th trade deadline.

  3. CapB

    Not sure why Orlando would want to do that with the way Amare is playing. I guess maybe pairing him with Jameer Nelson and surrounding him with shooters like Redick and Anderson can spark him, and then having Tyson on defense to protect rim.

    Sounds like fantasy to me though

  4. ess-dog

    Orlando is probably trying to pry Pau and Bynum away from the Lakers. Using Knicks to up the ante.

  5. Nick C.

    Didn’t Lin look like he didn’t belong on the court in his limited garbage time? In those games I had long tuned out so I am going by what I read here.

  6. Bruno Almeida

    ess-dog:
    Orlando is probably trying to pry Pau and Bynum away from the Lakers.Using Knicks to up the ante.

    for sure, there’s no way Orlando is dumb enough to mortgage their future by getting Amare’s huge uninsured contract… this is bait to see if the Lakers and Nets get desperate and agree to a lopsided panic deal.

    I know it’s a small sample size, but shouldn’t teams WANT to get Turkoglu on any Howard trade? I know his contract sucks, but he’s got a 62 TS%, 27.7 AST% and has .184 WS/48, all career highs… and it’s proven that he works pretty well with Howard.

  7. ROUGH

    I don’t know what happens in the D-League, but with the Knicks Lin recorder 4 fouls and a few turnovers in just 4 minutes of garbage time against the Kings. Amazing!

    The Howard trade is extremely goog and even more: too good to be true.

  8. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Didn’t Lin look like he didn’t belong on the court in his limited garbage time? In those games I had long tuned out so I am going by what I read here.

    He had three stints where he got roughly 4 minutes a game. His first 4 minute stint he looked bad and the next two he looked good. But all of his minutes combined were 16 minutes, ya know? Pretty small sample size.

  9. 2010

    “…Oh, and Stephen A. Smith is “reporting” — you know what, let’s just call it Stephorting from now on — that the Magic have lately inquired about a trade that would bring Dwight Howard to the Knicks, with Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler heading South to Orlando. So there’s that. ”

    I think the obvious trade is Stat for DWill- Nets aren’t going to be able to keep Williams long term unless they get Howard (with no trade chips that’s not going to happen) so they would lose him for nothing. If the nets have Amare then they at least have a star to headline when they move to Brooklyn. Williams would likely sign long term with the Knicks and put an end to the Melo/Amare experiment. I think the only thing that is preventing this from happening is the Nets think they can get both Williams and Howard.

  10. Bruno Almeida

    what if Orlando actually has solid hopes of keeping Dwight?

    wouldn’t they be interested in getting Amare as a second “star” to pair with Howard?

    hell, I’d definitely take an Amare for Hedo Turkoglu + J.J Redick or Jameer Nelson trade right now.

  11. Nick C.

    Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): He had three stints where he got roughly 4 minutes a game. His first 4 minute stint he looked bad and the next two he looked good. But all of his minutes combined were 16 minutes, ya know? Pretty small sample size.

    Definitely small sample size. I think my memory is skewed by the collective groans from his first appearance. Of course it’s not like he or Jordan will get any significant PT even with Jorts being out.

  12. Nick C.

    What are the odds Balkman sees the court considering those 18.5 mpg Jorts were playing can’t possibly all go to Jefferies.

  13. Count Zero

    Lin feels like what baseball fans refer to as AAAA player — dominant one level down, overmatched in the show.

    But then again — how much worse could he be than that old guy who claims he used to be Mike Bibby?

  14. domiknick

    I hate doing the whole “imaginary trade that will never actually happen” bit, yet, here I go (and I apologize if someone has already said this)…

    But what about Melo for D.Will? I’ve seen reports that D.Will is willing to sign with the Knicks. Nets would get their SIGNED superstar to build around in Brooklyn, Melo would still get to play in NY, and Knicks would get their PG, plus the added bonus of bringing Amar’e back from the dead. Additionally, Melo could take all the shots he wanted and then some on the NJ/Brooklyn Nets.

  15. Eternal OptiKnist

    We’ve got enough player-confidence issues right now and don’t need empty trade rumors shattering what’s left. Especially when said rumors are likely designed to increase leverage as some of you have mentioned.

  16. taggart4800

    We aren’t trading Melo, Amare or Tyson. We are not reacquiring Chandler, Gallinari, Mozgov, Draft Picks et.al. That is not the fault of anyone on this board nor, for the most part (possibly Melo), the players on the roster. We have a center who can only score at the rim, a PF and a SF who need space in the middle for their inside/outside game to work, coupled with a glut of players on the bench shooting worse than they ever have done. As far as I am concerned the struggles we are experiencing, as THCJ will happily tell you, were inevitable. I always maintained though that with humility, self awareness and the influence of D’Antoni that would right itself.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/sports/basketball/gallinaris-career-high-37-points-help-nuggets-top-knicks-in-double-overtime.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss
    Melo has a lot of bad habits to correct and years of delusion to overcome.
    Melo will come around eventually, he put himself in a position whereby he has to succeed or destroy his reputation. We just have to be patient!!

  17. bobneptune

    Bruno Almeida:
    what if Orlando actually has solid hopes of keeping Dwight?

    wouldn’t they be interested in getting Amare as a second “star” to pair with Howard?

    hell, I’d definitely take an Amare for Hedo Turkoglu + J.J Redick or Jameer Nelson trade right now.

    gm material, imo :-)

  18. Eazy B

    Bruno Almeida:
    what if Orlando actually has solid hopes of keeping Dwight?

    wouldn’t they be interested in getting Amare as a second “star” to pair with Howard?

    hell, I’d definitely take an Amare for Hedo Turkoglu + J.J Redick or Jameer Nelson trade right now.

    Posts like this make me hate this blog. Enough with the panic artistry – Remember when Amar’e was an MVP candidate last year? http://www.nba.com/2011/news/05/03/mvp-award/index.html

    Teams struggle. Even if the Knicks don’t achieve the lofty expectations of this year, so be it, but there is no way that Amar’e’s value is remotely comparable to a package of Turkoglu and Reddick.

  19. Juany8

    If we got Nelson, Reddick, and Anderson for Amar’e that would actually be a pretty intriguing trade, although only for this year. Players like that are not hard to acquire, which is why they all make so little.

  20. ess-dog

    Juany8:
    If we got Nelson, Reddick, and Anderson for Amar’e that would actually be a pretty intriguing trade, although only for this year. Players like that are not hard to acquire, which is why they all make so little.

    Not only would Orlando not do that, but if we’re trading Amare, it’s for cap space or another “star”.

  21. flossy

    taggart4800: Melo will come around eventually, he put himself in a position whereby he has to succeed or destroy his reputation. We just have to be patient!!

    Or invest in vaseline futures!

  22. Eternal OptiKnist

    lol, i love the vaseline references from Friday! Comedy gold. Anyone would be lying if they said they wouldn’t be excited about the prospect of getting a Dwight Howard. But its just not a legitimate prospect. And you know what, I’m fine with that (unless the Nets get him..then i’m pissed). I’m still excited about my team. I’m tired of waiting for the next ‘guy’. And anyone willing to trade Ama’re for Hedo Turkoglu if DH12 is not attached should really stop sniffing glue. You’re right Eazy B…amazing how short the memory is..STAT was a beast last year. I do understand the over-reaction I guess though…the decade we went through makes people a bit irrational. Folks just want to make sure we get it right this time while we have the opportunity.

  23. Eternal OptiKnist

    We talked on here on Friday about how Melo’s ego/desire to win would drive him to make some changes and i think we’re seeing the beginning of that possibly. I finally heard Melo’s postgame comments (both from Nuggets and Bucks games) and i like what i heard…it seemed honest and mature…does it change anything for the Knicks overnight? no..but i saw a guy who seemed genuinely upset that he let alot of people down and wants to change it. I don’t want him all mopey like that, but good to see some introspection.

  24. Bruno Almeida

    Eazy B: Posts like this make me hate this blog.Enough with the panic artistry – Remember when Amar’e was an MVP candidate last year?http://www.nba.com/2011/news/05/03/mvp-award/index.html

    Teams struggle.Even if the Knicks don’t achieve the lofty expectations of this year, so be it, but there is no way that Amar’e’s value is remotely comparable to a package of Turkoglu and Reddick.

    sorry, but Amare was never a MVP candidate, that was the media looking at box scores.

    Amare was 77th in the league in WS/48, 280th in WP48, 106th in TS%, 133rd in TRB% (as a 6’10” Power Forward / Center!), 149th in offensive rating, 233rd in defensive rating, and his team was 42-40…

    all advanced stats (and even regular ones) point to Amare being an average or, at most, a little above-average player, even pre-Melo trade… and he has a max contract, for god’s sake.

    if you add the fact that Amare’s contract has no insurance and he has an extensive injury history, I can’t figure out how irrational it is to trade him for Turkoglu, a pretty good shooter and ball handler / passer (something we sorely lack as a tem) and Redick, and excellent (and consistent) 3pt shooter on a very manageable contract.

    I love Amare too, I’d love if he could go back to his production when he was with the Suns, but I don’t think that’s happening, as much as I’d love it to.

  25. d-mar

    I honestly wouldn’t want some of you as my GM – “let’s see if we can dump Amare while his value is at an all-time low” Do you really think this is the best we’ll see of STAT? That he can’t come back from this awful start and at least become 75% of what he was last year? It might be a good idea also to wait and see the effect on Amare of having a real point guard. I have a hunch he’ll be a tad better.

    I’m not saying I wouldn’t trade him in a heartbeat to get D12, but right now I don’t think the Magic would even consider that, even with Chandler thrown in.

  26. Owen

    I think Amare can play better than he is now. He can certainly score more. But the Melo and Amare combo doesn’ t work. I think we can say that somewhat definitively at this point, even if they go over 500 from here. It’s not a championship combination. Too similar in their need for the ball and neither plays defense.

    I don’t think you lose much if you ditch Amare’s max contract.

  27. Ben R

    d-mar – Amare will eventually play better than he is right now but his days as a dominant player are behind him and we need to move him while he is still seen as an all-star, all-nba scorer who is simply in a slump and not the overrated, over the hill, former all-star, who plays no defense with a terrible contract.

  28. Bruno Almeida

    d-mar:
    I honestly wouldn’t want some of you as my GM – “let’s see if we can dump Amare while his value is at an all-time low” Do you really think this is the best we’ll see of STAT? That he can’t come back from this awful start and at least become 75% of what he was last year? It might be a good idea also to wait and see the effect on Amare of having a real point guard. I have a hunch he’ll be a tad better.

    I’m not saying I wouldn’t trade him in a heartbeat to get D12, but right now I don’t think the Magic would even consider that, even with Chandler thrown in.

    I’m not saying trade him right away, I’m saying I think the Knicks should explore trade scenarios and see what happens, and if a good trade comes up, do it… don’t get caught up on what could happen just because the guy has the “superstar” word attached to his name, that was Isiah’s MO.

    Amare seems to be regressing, he’s had injury problems and is not a good fit with Carmelo and Chandler… even if he does get better (and I think he will), will 75% of last year’s Amare (which was not that good for his own career standards, by the way) be deserving of a max contract? Why should we keep paying him 20 million bucks a year for this type of production, if better options could be available?

  29. Richmond County

    TDM:
    I guess my post on Jordan and Lin in the previous topic got lost in the riveting banter over the relative value of Ryan Anderson.Go figure.At any rate, here’s the link you (d-bags) missed that includes video of Lin in action.; )

    With the understanding that it’s only one game, I would think that someone who can throw up a triple-double in the D-Leauge can play 10-15 minutes off the bench in the Bigs and not puke all over themselves. Even more likely, someone who can run the floor for 44 minutes in a single game at any professional level has to be more alive than Bibby.

    http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20120120/ERIMNE/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

  30. iserp

    Bruno Almeida: if you add the fact that Amare’s contract has no insurance and he has an extensive injury history, I can’t figure out how irrational it is to trade him for Turkoglu, a pretty good shooter and ball handler / passer (something we sorely lack as a tem) and Redick, and excellent (and consistent) 3pt shooter on a very manageable contract.

    As a matter of fact, Phoenix played the best bball of the last 10 years when Turkoglu substituted Amare.

    SARCASM OFF

  31. Owen

    Wow, that is quite a takedown. Could have been written by multiple posters at Knickerblogger. It was spot on for me.

  32. Bruno Almeida

    iserp: As a matter of fact, Phoenix played the best bball of the last 10 years when Turkoglu substituted Amare.

    SARCASM OFF

    yeah, because that’s all that happened with the Suns, and Amare had an 100 million uninsured contract with them………

    and I didn’t even say to trade him straight up for Turkoglu.

  33. d-mar

    Bruno Almeida: I’m not saying trade him right away, I’m saying I think the Knicks should explore trade scenarios and see what happens, and if a good trade comes up, do it… don’t get caught up on what could happen just because the guy has the “superstar” word attached to his name, that was Isiah’s MO.

    Amare seems to be regressing, he’s had injury problems and is not a good fit with Carmelo and Chandler… even if he does get better (and I think he will), will 75% of last year’s Amare (which was not that good for his own career standards, by the way) be deserving of a max contract? Why should we keep paying him 20 million bucks a year for this type of production, if better options could be available?

    I still think it”s too early to say the Amare-Melo combo will never work. The Knicks won 7 in a row towards the end of last season and looked pretty good against Boston until players started going down. And they had a real PG then, remember? Let’s see how the B Davis thing plays out before we write the Knicks’ obituary.

  34. Bruno Almeida

    d-mar: I still think it”s too early to say the Amare-Melo combo will never work. The Knicks won 7 in a row towards the end of last season and looked pretty good against Boston until players started going down. And they had a real PG then, remember? Let’s see how the B Davis thing plays out before we write the Knicks’ obituary.

    I do think it’s too early, all I’m saying is the Knicks should be open to exploring trade scenarios, that’s all.

    I think the team will play better once Baron is healthy and has a few games under his belt, but I just don’t see this team ever being a championship team the way it is, and I think moving Amare and hoping Melo figures it out is our best hope to one day become a true contender.

  35. Bruno Almeida

    and look, I would absolutely love to see Amare come back, prove me a fool and go back to +60 TS%, mesh well with Carmelo, Baron and Tyson, and turn us into true contenders…

    but I just don’t see it playing out that way, all the stats and even the eye test show that it most probably won’t happen.

  36. Juany8

    The real problem with Amar’e is his pathetic effort on defense, never mind the offensive production. Does everyone realize we get absolutely torched by stretch 4’s, and I doubt it’s because of Chandler. I could live with a physically limited defender like Kevin Love who will at least close out and make some rotations, or even someone who makes mistakes, but he literally makes no effort for large stretches of games to do… anything. Carmelo has effort issues, but he is quite the man defender when motivated, which will help against guys like Deng and Lebron if we ever start to contend. Chandler and Shumpert can make all defensive teams, they are incredible.

  37. ruruland

    It’s no surprise that the self-referential charlatan Jeremy chose to pile on Melo after arguably the worst stretch in his career (as a mature player). He feigns superior basketball acumen when encountered with those willing to dispute his half-truths.

    I said before this whole thing started to go rotten that the ship woild find itself in the abyss right around the time it activates an NBA-caliber point guard. By then the fan and media narrative will largely be set in stone, and the big three+D’antoni forlorn as suicide-inducing failures.

    At which point the nascent team will rise to the surface, emerging into a perfect storm where the pipes of frustration will finally be allowed to burst.

    But it’s your perogative as a fan to protect your emotions and hedge your bets against that scenario.

    I’ll be the first to remind you of the stones you’ve cast.

  38. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida: and look, I would absolutely love to see Amare come back, prove me a fool and go back to +60 TS%, mesh well with Carmelo, Baron and Tyson, and turn us into true contenders… but I just don’t see it playing out that way, all the stats and even the eye test show that it most probably won’t happen.

    Don’t give up on the ship before it gets a rudder.

  39. Knicks671

    So on a lighter note, watching the Baron Davis interview after practice on knicksnow.com, at about 6:50 through his interview he talks about the “Boo-ing” from the fans not helping. haha. Had me cracking up…

  40. Z

    Knicks671:
    So on a lighter note, watching the Baron Davis interview after practice on knicksnow.com, at about 6:50 through his interview he talks about the “Boo-ing” from the fans not helping. haha. Had me cracking up…

    I don’t knw if Baron is going to turn us into a contender when he starts playing, but I have to say that I love having him on the team. I think he’s probably my favorite personality that the Knicks have had since Camby.

    Jon– I suspect you may be right re:Stern telling Davis he had to sit for 6 weeks. Baron has talked about his excruciating pain, and I sat next to him at Staples Center last month and he would periodically wince when sitting down. But Craig Sager was lurking around him all night, so I’ll go with the conspiracy angle on it. Baron is from LA after all, and went to the same High school as Jack Black.

    Brian– Baron Davis referred to Bill Walker as “Billy” today, so Mike Breen isn’t the only one! (he actually referred to Billy in the same sentence as Melo, Amar’e, Tyson, and Shump as the main players on the team… maybe he hasn’t been paying close attention, despite his front row seats :)

  41. Degree_Absolute

    Also, looking forward to more Lin/Jordon garbage time. The pick-n-roll looked pretty good in Erie.

    @29, I like how Carmelo promptly took back all the introspective comments he made after the loss to the Denver Danilo’s. Hope ya’ll are excited for more hero-ball!!!

  42. Frank O.

    Owen:
    I think Amare can play better than he is now. He can certainly score more. But the Melo and Amare combo doesn’ t work. I think we can say that somewhat definitively at this point, even if they go over 500 from here. It’s not a championship combination. Too similar in their need for the ball and neither plays defense.

    I don’t think you lose much if you ditch Amare’s max contract.

    Disagree. There just isn’t enough data to draw that conclusion. As a matter of opinion, sure. It’s your right. But I don’t see anything definitive. The two haven’t yet had a consistent point guard. Billups was injured a lot. No true point this year. In my view, it’s silly to draw any conclusions. I typically find myself agreeing with you, but not this time. Melo is not efficient. Amare has been, aside from his TO issue. But theoretically, one can see that these two guys could cause enormous problems for opponents with a competent point. IMHO.

  43. Frank O.

    …and btw, I would trade Melo in a heartbeat for a good point guard. I’d be more inclined to move him before Amare.
    I don’t believe Amare is declining. I believe he will be a very efficient scorer again. Melo is a good player, who is rather inefficient. Melohas a lifetime TS% of .544 and an eFG% of .478. Lifetime PER is 20.4.
    Amare’s TS% .597 and an eFG% .535. Lifetime PER, 22.4.
    Both have played poorly at the outset of the season. I am not advocating for change; my point is, historically speaking, Amare is the more efficient player.

  44. Ben R

    Amare even at last years level is not worth a max contract, he is older than Melo and will probably not age as well. We need to move him while he still has some value.

    Last year’s Amare is worth probably 10-12 million and we don’t know if we’ll ever even get that level of play from him again. Melo even though his game frustrates me and makes for boring ugly basketball has real value and will be movable for the foreseeable future. We need to move Amare first then if we are still struggling move Melo.

    We need to be very dilligant and careful dismantling this team or we risk being stuck in an Isiah like quagmire. Move the hardest to move piece first, Amare, then move the easy to move pieces.

  45. xduckshoex

    Just wanted to post to say that Frank O is killing it and has pretty much said everything I wanted to say.

  46. hoolahoop

    Ben R: Melo even though his game frustrates me and makes for boring ugly basketball has real value and will be movable for the foreseeable future. We need to move Amare first then if we are still struggling move Melo.

    In a good ball movement, play motion system I think Amare will come back to life. Yeah, he looks stiff, but he’s not an old guy. The way this team plays there’s nothing for him to do.
    Which brings me to Melo. Until his selfish, ball stopping, iso chucking ends, everyone around him will look worse than they really are.

  47. Owen

    I didn’t say they wouldn’t be decent. They might even be good. But there is no way this is a championship contender. Maybe if we add Steve Nash next year. Or if baron turns into Steve Nash.

    I would blow it up like Ben, but of course I never wanted either of these guys to begin with…

  48. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

    Brian– Baron Davis referred to Bill Walker as “Billy” today, so Mike Breen isn’t the only one! (he actually referred to Billy in the same sentence as Melo, Amar’e, Tyson, and Shump as the main players on the team… maybe he hasn’t been paying close attention, despite his front row seats :)

    Oh no, the “Billy” meme has caught on!

    Oh well, if Walker is cool with being called “Billy,” then obviously I’m cool. My problem was always Breen calling him it when no one else did. Imagine a dude just suddenly calling Namath “Joey”? It’d be super weird, right?

  49. hoolahoop

    It’s official. The world has gone mad.

    Melo: Player of the Month
    January 23, 09:15 AM EST

    The NBA announced the nomination of Carmelo Anthony for the Kia Performance Player of the Month Award. As the third-leading scorer in the NBA, Melo has averaged more than 26 points and 4 assists per game. Thus far in the season, he has had multiple 30-point games including scoring 37 points in the home opener- the second most by any Knick in a season opener falling behind Patric Ewing who scored 38 in 1990. On January 18 against Phoenix, a “Melo Milestone” occurred when he surpassed 15,000 career points with a layup at the 1:27 mark in the fourth quarter.

  50. Juany8

    I honestly can’t understand the people that have a problem with Melo and not Amar’e. If you see them both as inefficient chuckers and poor defenders who have no value then I disagree but I can respect that you’re being logically consistent. Amar’e needs a good point guard to be efficient and he plays no defense at the second most important defensive position on the floor. Melo at least generates all his value on his own and he doesn’t have injury concerns. Just because Amar’e led the Knicks to a .500 record with Melo like efficiency, but without the skilled passing, doesn’t make him a better player.

  51. hoolahoop

    I believe Amare is a more selfless player, more concerned about winning than getting “his” . . . until Meloisonosis ravaged the team.
    The second quarter against Denver was as good as I’ve seen the knicks play this year. “Amare and the B String” moved the ball well and broke open the game. Then, Melo entered and the momentum grinded to a halt. Same thing the night before against the Bucks.

    I just believe Amare can be part of a winning team (NBA Finals), and Melo will never ever ever be there until he changes his game (don’t hold your breath).

  52. bobneptune

    hoolahoop:
    On January 18 against Phoenix, a “Melo Milestone” occurred when he surpassed 15,000 career points with a layup at the 1:27 mark in the fourth quarter.

    when i first read this post, my mind’s eye read it as “a Melo Millstone” (as in a biblical metaphor hung around our collective necks. :-)

    lol @ me!

  53. Z

    Juany8:
    I honestly can’t understand the people that have a problem with Melo and not Amar’e. If you see them both as inefficient chuckers and poor defenders who have no value then I disagree but I can respect that you’re being logically consistent. Amar’e needs a good point guard to be efficient and he plays no defense at the second most important defensive position on the floor. Melo at least generates all his value on his own and he doesn’t have injury concerns. Just because Amar’e led the Knicks to a .500 record with Melo like efficiency, but without the skilled passing, doesn’t make him a better player.

    Not sure who you are talking to here. You seem to think we are all one collective mind that needs to be argued with. A lot of people (like Owen admitted not long ago) were as opposed to bringing in Amar’e as they were Carmelo. Ben R. just wrote a whole great post about how Amar’e is the biggest liability on the team.

    In fact, I don’t think anybody here (maybe hooplahoop, but not definitively) has claimed that Amar’e is a better player than Melo. People may like Amar’e more, but that can’t be too hard to fathom. He’s a more dynamic personality, he doesn’t smirk when he screws up, and there was no Amar’e-drama circling preceding his arrival. Personally, I’d rather lose with people I like than win with people I don’t like, but that’s just me. The one thing I can’t stand is losing ith people I don’t like. I endured five months of Zach Randolph, then called it quits until he was traded. I don’t care how many allstar teams he makes in Memphis. I really don’t want to go through that again with the Knicks– not after the decade of filth we’ve wallowed in.

  54. Juany8

    Well I’m sorry but I don’t know either Melo or Amar’e personally and I’m not going to make judgement calls about their character from their style of basketball. I respect that you have your opinion, but I hope you understand that you saying Amar’e is more selfless and interested in winning, when he left a team that went to the WCF and had Steve Nash on it for more money and fame, isn’t exactly a valid reason for anyone else to believe that, nor is it a great reason for a front office to choose Amar’e ahead of Melo. I actually like Amar’e and believe we have a core good enough to contend once we fill out the roster, but I see Amar’e as the third best player on this team behind Melo and Chandler, both of who have skill sets that unfortunately duplicate many of Amar’e’s strengths. Besides, we’re going to need a shooting guard who can shoot and defend, and a point guard who can run an offense to contend regardless of who’s in the front court.

  55. hoolahoop

    Just listening to Melo speak shows who he is. In the last three interviews i’ve seen he makes a point to refer to himself as the team leader. What’s that about? Small dick, I suppose. And he talks with a quiet arrogance.
    When you’re playing like shit and you’re team is on a six game losing streak, show, just a little, humility.
    It makes me wonder. These guys are on pedestals making ions of money just for being good basketball players. Maybe it’s time for me to disconnect.

  56. Juany8

    @61, sorry if I’m coming off as simply being argumentative, although hoolahoop has directly said that Melo’s iso’s are causing several of the team’s problems and that he’s never going to be good enough to contend with, but Amar’e is. I’m pretty sure he’s not the only one who sees the Amar’e from last year as a better player than Melo, but to be fair no one on this thread really said as much. Liking Amar’e more and enjoying watching a team built around him is perfectly fine and totally understandable, but it’s not exactly a basketball argument for choosing one player over the other. I think the Knick’s best chance of winning is trying to build around all 3, although I’d personally take Melo over Amar’e if I was only going to keep one, and for me it wouldn’t be too hard a decision.

  57. Owen

    I don’t know who is better. If you put a gun to my head as a Knicks fan I would say shoot me. Sorry, I would say Melo.

    My problem with Melo, as Z noted, is just the taste in my mouth. I wasn’t crazy about the Amare acquistion but I was ok with what we were last year pre-Melo. Amare as the centerpiece with a bunch of young guys around him with potential who were playing well and playing as a team. After the Eddy Curry years, it was pretty good, the best I can remember feeling about the Knicks since David Lee’s emergence.

    What we have now is horrible. It will probably improve, no doubt, it can’t get worse. But this isn’t fun. And it isn’t in keeping with the two traditions of Knicks basketball, the team oriented play of the 70’s and bruising defense of the 90’s.

    Meanwhile, Marcin Gortat went off again tonight. I don’t know how many times I said we should sign that guy. They don’t call him the white dwight for nothing….

  58. hoolahoop

    I

    Owen:
    I don’t know who is better. If you put a gun to my head as a Knicks fan I would say shoot me. Sorry, I would say Melo.

    My problem with Melo, as Z noted, is just the taste in my mouth. I wasn’t crazy about the Amare acquistion but I was ok with what we were last year pre-Melo. Amare as the centerpiece with a bunch of young guys around him with potential who were playing well and playing as a team. After the Eddy Curry years, it was pretty good, the best I can remember feeling about the Knicks since David Lee’s emergence.

    What we have now is horrible. It will probably improve, no doubt, it can’t get worse. But this isn’t fun. And it isn’t in keeping with the two traditions of Knicks basketball, the team oriented play of the 70?s and bruising defense of the 90?s.

    Meanwhile, Marcin Gortat went off again tonight. I don’t know how many times I said we should sign that guy. They don’t call him the white dwight for nothing….

    I don’t know how much more of a sample size you need, but it seems pretty clear that the pieces we have don’t fit together. I was screaming that before the trade for melo. Then, it was the gel thing, next the big man thing. Now, it’s the PG thing.

    The pieces don’t fit and there’s no chemistry. In fact, I think they’re starting to dislike each other.

    I thought the most important thing we traded away was not Gallo, Felton, or Chandler. It was good chemistry. T Chandler would probably have been a big upgrade for that team, positioning them on par with Chicago, just behind Miami.

  59. hoolahoop

    Owen: I don’t know who is better. If you put a gun to my head as a Knicks fan I would say shoot me. Sorry, I would say Melo.

    Pure talent, Melo is much better. He’s neat the top in the league. Winning is another story. Melo can’t win at this level beyond what we’ve seen. This league is too strong for one guy to iso into the finals , , , without a talented, cohesive cast around him. Dirk is iso, but the team played great together and had a ton of depth.

  60. Ben R

    Owen: What we have now is horrible. It will probably improve, no doubt, it can’t get worse. But this isn’t fun. And it isn’t in keeping with the two traditions of Knicks basketball, the team oriented play of the 70?s and bruising defense of the 90?s.

    This

    I felt the same way about the Knicks pre-trade, I wasn’t crazy about Amare but overall I was having a blast. Now I barely even root for us half the time, when Melo barrels into traffic and gets a charge I am grateful, when he takes an off-balance fadeaway with two men on him and 15 seconds on the shot clock I am happy when he misses.

    I didn’t think it could get any worse than the Zach Randolph years but clearly I was wrong. I remember when Amare got his fourth foul 30 seconds into the 3rd quarter a couple games ago and I was so happy he was going to the bench. When I heard we were losing Melo for a couple games I was relieved.

    These are dark days. I don’t even know if I want us to turn it around because that would mean three more years of this. I’m kinda rooting for us to continue to be terrible so we can blow it up.

  61. latke

    I think a lot of the ‘melo hate also comes because so many of our players have gotten worse as a result of his acquisition. This is not entirely ‘melo’s fault. The style of play he’s used to and is comfortable with fits in best with defensive players and/or other guys who can score on their own (Billups was an ideal complement to him in this way). He can cover the defensive players’ offensive weaknesses, rarely pass them the ball, and they can cover his defensive deficiencies.

    What makes this all the more frustrating is that he clearly has the skills to play in an offense that moves the ball, but he seems unwilling. Not only does he want to get the shot attempts, but he wants to create them for himself. He has the same flaw as Kobe has, one that Jackson did a nice job of holding in check for the most part. He wants to win games on his own. Except during his prime Kobe could cover this flaw up with his great defense and his even more impressive set of offensive skills.

    The last reason I think Carmelo gets more flak is because of what we gave up for him. Amare came as a free agent, and sure, we pay him a lot, and that money could have gone to other players, but for Carmelo, not only are we paying him a ton, but we gave up at least as much as the Clippers gave up for Paul. On the surface the Clipper trade seemed like a pretty good haul, but Gordon is expiring this summer, and Aminu hasn’t done much. That leaves the Minnesota pick, which will likely be in the 10-15 range. You look at other trades involving stars, and they are generally smaller packages. Gasol was traded for his brother, who was then never expected to amount to much, along with Kwame Brown. Ray Allen was traded for Jeff Green, Delonte West, and Wally Sczerbiak. The Garnett trade was similar if you think Gerald Green was equally valuable to Wilson Chandler…….

  62. Spree8nyk8

    Ben R: This

    I felt the same way about the Knicks pre-trade, I wasn’t crazy about Amare but overall I was having a blast. Now I barely even root for us half the time, when Melo barrels into traffic and gets a charge I am grateful, when he takes an off-balance fadeaway with two men on him and 15 seconds on the shot clock I am happy when he misses.

    I didn’t think it could get any worse than the Zach Randolph years but clearly I was wrong. I remember when Amare got his fourth foul 30 seconds into the 3rd quarter a couple games ago and I was so happy he was going to the bench. When I heard we were losing Melo for a couple games I was relieved.

    These are dark days. I don’t even know if I want us to turn it around because that would mean three more years of this. I’m kinda rooting for us to continue to be terrible so we can blow it up.

    You should just pick another team and be done with it. Maybe that sounds shitty. But seriously rooting for this team wouldn’t suck nearly as bad if the fans didn’t seriously suck worse than the team. I mean good god man. No matter how much the team sucks I certainly don’t want them to keep sucking so they’ll “blow it up”. You know how long that would take before we’d be decent again? Lots of teams go through periods where they just don’t mesh. Six weeks ago every Giants fan wanted them to fire Coughlin and probably bust up that team. Now they are in the superbowl. THAT is what is great in sports, when teams figure it out and get it together. If you have rooted for this team for any real length of time you know that it’s never going to be easy for…..

    You know what, I don’t even wanna finish any of that. If you hate the team that bad you have 29 teams to choose from. Pick one and be done with it. I’m friggin sick of hearing Knick “fans” say how they want the team to fail because they never…

  63. Spree8nyk8

    Ben R, for the record I actually do like most of the things you post. This particular attitude I’ve just heard so much lately and I just really can’t stand it. Don’t take it personal please, I just could never share that attitude.

  64. Spree8nyk8

    @69 my belief is that the grief people have for the Melo Trade is because they have a poor understanding of the actual trade itself. They think we gave up Gallo, WC, Felton and Mozgov, and AR who wasn’t playing anyway for Melo.

    If you actually look at the end product of the trade and also compare it to what could have happened you start with Wilson Chandler, a player that I myself really liked. If we did not do the trade we would have had to renounce Wilson Chandler to sign any big free agent. His cap hold would have been needed to be freed so take Wilson out of the equation right there. This is one major reason that the Knicks tried to push WC into the trade while holding onto Gallo from the beginning. So Wilson’s out, so you have the other 3 guys, AR makes 4 yes, but what value did he really have at the time? Are you really going to tell me that the majority of you would have been against trading gallo/moz/felton for Melo/tyson? Seriously? Because that is basically what happened. And people can point all they want at Denver being better after the trade, but they only have 2 of our guys there now. So a bit of what they found there they already had they just weren’t using it right. Good for them. That does not mean that the team that was here would have amounted to anything. They were 2 games over .500 and 5 games under .500 since christmas day. People love to act like if we didn’t make that trade that we would have THAT team. And it’s just not true. They have the same Gallo that you loved AND hated when he was here. When he’s on he’s a lot of fun. But he also turns invisible quite often and that people hated as well. Sure I wish we didn’t lose all those guys. But we were going to lose some of them anyway. I just want them to improve, and I’m sure at some point it will.

  65. Juany8

    Role players who share the ball are awesome when they’re playing selflessly and sharing the ball, until they run into a good half court defense in the playoffs, at which point you start wondering how Gallo and Lawson are even going to deal with Durant and Westbrook on either end. In fact I’d argue that the Thunder are significantly better at every position except maybe power forward. The thought of Gallo even scoring against Lebron is pretty laughable, but I guess I might just have been jarred by too many Rockets losses when I see Kevin Martin and Luis Scola suddenly turn useless late in games against good teams in the league. There’s a better chance that Melo and Amar’e will figure it out, and that a PG and general bench upgrade will do huge things for this team, than there is of a player like Lawson or Lowry ever being able to carry a team against the smartest defenses in the league. You win in the playoffs by exploiting matchups and getting your best players the ball where they are most effective, as the endless Dirk postups for fade away jumpers showed in the playoffs. You don’t surprise anyone anymore, and at some point players just have to execute well, they’re not going to be getting wide open 3’s or layups

  66. hoolahoop

    Ben R: This

    I felt the same way about the Knicks pre-trade, I wasn’t crazy about Amare but overall I was having a blast. Now I barely even root for us half the time, when Melo barrels into traffic and gets a charge I am grateful, when he takes an off-balance fadeaway with two men on him and 15 seconds on the shot clock I am happy when he misses.

    I didn’t think it could get any worse than the Zach Randolph years but clearly I was wrong. I remember when Amare got his fourth foul 30 seconds into the 3rd quarter a couple games ago and I was so happy he was going to the bench. When I heard we were losing Melo for a couple games I was relieved.

    These are dark days. I don’t even know if I want us to turn it around because that would mean three more years of this. I’m kinda rooting for us to continue to be terrible so we can blow it up.

    I feel the same.

  67. bobneptune

    Spree8nyk8:
    @69 my belief is that the grief people have for the Melo Trade is because they have a poor understanding of the actual trade itself.They think we gave up Gallo, WC, Felton and Mozgov, and AR who wasn’t playing anyway for Melo.

    spree,

    let me disagree with your analysis.

    first you mention there are only 2 players from the trade still on denver, that is technically correct, but the player formerly known as felton didn’t vaporize at the event horizon of a black hole….. he went to portland for a very significant player named andre miller who is an important component to the denver team.

    there are also a #1 pick, 2 #2 picks and a likely flip of #1 picks that will show up on denver’s roster in the future.

    wilson chandler will also likely show up on denver’s roster for the stretch run as they still own his rights til 6/30/12. had walsh decided chandler wasn’t needed in any trades for melo , but was going to need his cap space in 2012 and not resign him, he could have moved him at the deadline on his own (he would still be under the receiving teams control @3M /yr for 1 and a third seasons) for future pick/(s). he wasn’t going to let chandler walk away for nothing as you imply.

    as to a. randolph, they guy who was the bribe price for curry, it was widely reported walsh had a team lined up to give a #1 pick if denver wanted only picks, so he wasn’t valueless.

  68. bobneptune

    Juany8:
    Role players who share the ball are awesome when they’re playing selflessly and sharing the ball, until they run into a good half court defense in the playoffs, at which point you start wondering how Gallo and Lawson are even going to deal with Durant and Westbrook on either end.

    no one thinks denver will be as good as okc. no one will.

    of course , to be okc, you have to suck badly enough to be in the high lottery 3 years in a row, get lucky enough to draw the #2, #3 and #4 slot in consecutive years and then when you are #2, have the team drafting #1 make a reasonable choice that blows up in their face leaving you with one of the best players of his generation.

    ez parlay.

    denver was looking down into the abyss with the carmelo situation as cleveland was and made chicken salad out of chicken shit.

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