Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Knicks reach agreement with Whirled Peas

Fourteen years after infamously shunning him for a seven-foot French stiff in the 1999 Draft, the Knicks have reached an agreement in principle to bring Metta World Peace back to his native New York.

Sources are saying the deal will be in the neighborhood of two years, $3.2 million.

While the Knicks were long thought to be the favorite to retain his services after the veteran forward was cut adrift by the Lakers via the amnesty provision, World Peace had taken to being somewhat coy over the last 24 hours, hinting that he would be entertaining offers from as far afield as Shanghai and — yes — the Arena Football League.

Metta himself has yet to confirm the reports, stating instead that the two parties were “still working on it,” but it seems likely this refers to the finer details (player or team option in the second year?) rather than the general framework.

Matthew Falkenbury, one of our new contributors here at KBlogger, penned a nice rundown of what a potential MWP signing would mean for the Knicks — roster-wise, chemistry-wise, sanity-wise — going forward, so definitely check that out.

In the mean time, use this as a forum for any and all thoughts, reflections, classic Artest / MWP anecdotes, or hilarious videos of Frederic Weis getting his ass handed to him up and down courts all over the world.

Peace. Looks good, don’t it?

Screen Shot 2013-07-15 at 3.09.19 PM

154 comments on “Knicks reach agreement with Whirled Peas

  1. jon abbey

    “Sources are saying the deal will be worth in the neighborhood of two years, $7.7 million dollars. ”

    sources aren’t paying much attention to NY’s money situation then.

  2. er

    Man this team is starting to eerily resemble the 90s knicks.

    PE- Stat on offense Chandler on D
    Houston-Melo
    Spreewell-JR
    Starks-Shump
    Mason-MWP
    Oak-Kmart
    PP-Charlie Ward lol!
    Ray Ray-Chris Childs
    Bargs-Charles Smilth

    Who am I missing?

    THJ- Hubert Davis? lmao

  3. Jim Cavan Post author

    jon abbey:
    “Sources are saying the deal will be worth in the neighborhood of two years, $7.7 million dollars. ”

    sources aren’t paying much attention to NY’s money situation then.

    Apologies for the typo, your highness.

  4. ephus

    I am happy with the MWP signing.

    Two years for $3.2 million (second year is a player option) means that the Knicks used the rest of their mini-MLE. If they had done a veteran’s minimum, the 2 year number could not have been more than $2.9 million.

    So, the rest of the Knicks’ roster has to be filled with veteran’s minimum players or rookies.

  5. jon abbey

    hehe, a mistake and a typo are different things.

    and I love that you’re allowed to take personal shots without risk of censorship, while the rest of us are quickly muzzled.

  6. er

    ephus:
    I am happy with the MWP signing.

    Two years for $3.2 million (second year is a player option) means that the Knicks used the rest of their mini-MLE.If they had done a veteran’s minimum, the 2 year number could not have been more than $2.9 million.

    So, the rest of the Knicks’ roster has to be filled with veteran’s minimum players or rookies.

    Yep Kmart, and maybe vargas or Tyler

  7. Garson

    er:
    Man this team is starting to eerily resemble the 90s knicks.

    PE- Stat on offense Chandler on D
    Houston-Melo
    Spreewell-JR
    Starks-Shump
    Mason-MWP
    Oak-Kmart
    PP-Charlie Ward lol!
    Ray Ray-Chris Childs
    Bargs-Charles Smilth

    Who am I missing?

    THJ- Hubert Davis? lmao

    If JR is not Starks… I dont know who is!

  8. DRed

    jon abbey:
    hehe, a mistake and a typo are different things.

    and I love that you’re allowed to take personal shots without risk of censorship, while the rest of us are quickly muzzled.

    Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

  9. Hubert

    I assume this means we gave him the rest of the mini-MLE. Better get a backup C for the min.

  10. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Forty-five wins. Such a glorious year for New York Knicks basketball ’twill be.

  11. jon abbey

    our newly obtained crazy friend is courtside about to be interviewed at today’s summer league game.

  12. thenamestsam

    Hubert:
    Well.I’m nervous about the unique challenges he will pose. And I’m excited about what he can bring.

    Having said that, I’m very concerned about how he affects us offensively.Do we really want Artest in 3-point friendly system?

    The thought of him and Shump guarding the perimeter is enticing but I can’t see how that works offensively. Assuming they’re surrounded by Melo, Felton, Chandler…if the Felton/Chandler PnR isn’t working that’s basically Melo by himself.

    This renders the AB acquisition virtually pointless, as well. What is he, our 4th forward when Amare is healthy? We gave up a 1 for that?That’s water under the bridge though.

    Hopefully one of these forwards is always injured bc that’s a hard situation for Woody to manage.

    MWP actually shot 3s reasonably well last year. Not great, but 34% is passable and he was better than that from the corners. As long as he can keep that up I think it’ll be an okay fit.

  13. chrisk06811

    so…..how do we do this?

    Start Felton, Shump, WP, Melo and Chandler
    Bench time to Priggy, JR, AB AND Amare? with maybe some THJ?

    Starting lineup is improved, but do we want to play amare and bargnani together? I know someone is going to get hurt and make the question moot.

    The question would be moot and not mute. I hate when people f that up.

  14. Hubert

    There doesn’t seem to be a plan this summer, and that’s concerning. A week ago I figured we ‘d be playing Melo at the 3 w Amare & AB manning the 4 in more traditional lineups. Today it looks like Melo back at the 4 but without the two PG’s that made that system successful. If another low end starter (and yes, I don’t consider MWP more than a low end starter despite whatever +/- numbers ruru comes up with) becomes available next week will we change course again?

    My two biggest concerns are adding Artest’s sub 50 TS% to the most 3 point friendly system in the league, and Woodson’s inability to manage multiple options at the same positions.

    Actually that last one leads me to a bigger concern: if you assume we always have Melo, a PG, and a C in our best lineup, someone among Shumpert, Artest, and JR is going to get squeezed. Given who our coach is, I’m afraid Shumpert gets shafted in this scenario because “Coach like veteran”.

  15. jon abbey

    heh, Artest was listing Knicks he’s looking forward to playing alongside, and his face lit up when he started talking about Shumpie. for the record, no one’s face has ever lit up when they thought about playing alongside Landry Fields.

  16. Garson

    jon abbey:
    no one’s face has ever lit up when they thought about playing alongside Landry Fields.

    Andy Rautins… But i guess his face lit up when thinking about playing period…

  17. Dan Panorama

    How many roster spots do we have left? I guess this makes CJ Leslie less likely to make final cut, since he was supposed to occupy a poor man’s Artest role and shoots much worse. Murry/Tyler? Or Murry/KMart maybe?

  18. ephus

    The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Forty-five wins. Such a glorious year for New York Knicks basketball ’twill be.

    I will make you a wager, THCJ. I say the Knicks win 46 or more games this year, you get 45 or below.

    Loser has to +1 (and only +1) the winner’s posts on the post-game threads during the Knicks’ first round of the playoffs. No other comments are allowed. No personal disparagement of the loser is allowed (so you can’t make me +1 something reading “Ephus sucks”).

    Bet?

  19. jon abbey

    Dan Panorama:
    How many roster spots do we have left? I guess this makes CJ Leslie less likely to make final cut, since he was supposed to occupy a poor man’s Artest role and shoots much worse. Murry/Tyler? Or Murry/KMart maybe?

    we still have a ton of spots, Leslie is only #11, K-Mart would be #12.

    Chandler
    Melo
    Artest
    Shumpert
    Felton

    JR
    Bargnani
    Amare
    Prigioni
    Hardaway

  20. er

    Hubert:
    There doesn’t seem to be a plan this summer, and that’s concerning.A week ago I figured we ‘d be playing Melo at the 3 w Amare & AB manning the 4 in more traditional lineups.Today it looks like Melo back at the 4 but without the two PG’s that made that system successful.If another low end starter (and yes, I don’t consider MWP more than a low end starter despite whatever +/- numbers ruru comes up with) becomes available next week will we change course again?

    My two biggest concerns are adding Artest’s sub 50 TS% to the most 3 point friendly system in the league, and Woodson’s inability to manage multiple options at the same positions.

    Actually that last one leads me to a bigger concern: if you assume we always have Melo, a PG, and a C in our best lineup, someone among Shumpert, Artest, and JR is going to get squeezed.Given who our coach is, I’m afraid Shumpert gets shafted in this scenario because “Coach like veteran”.

    I think you guys are missing the obvious only lineup we can play.
    PG -Felton
    SG-Shump
    SF-Melo
    PF-Bargs
    C-Tyson

    Now with this lineup, the sf and pf are inverted on Defense. Melo plays post, midpost and bargs stretches the floor depending on who is guarding each. The Bench now is where the intrigue comes. The first sub could be MWP for bargs, Amare for Tyson. PP i think wouldnt play the first quarter for more than or so 3 mins , JR and shump split.

    There are endless opps with this bench. But i think this is the only starting lineup that is feasible

  21. BigBlueAL

    I dont know how successful a season the Knicks will have next season but it sure as hell is going to be interesting to watch. Cant wait!!

  22. Brian Cronin

    Great move, but it is kind of odd that Artest is getting the full remaining money from the mini-MLE. What’s Artest need that extra $300,000 for?

  23. Brian Cronin

    Now with this lineup, the sf and pf are inverted on Defense. Melo plays post, midpost and bargs stretches the floor depending on who is guarding each. The Bench now is where the intrigue comes. The first sub could be MWP for bargs, Amare for Tyson. PP i think wouldnt play the first quarter for more than or so 3 mins , JR and shump split.
    There are endless opps with this bench. But i think this is the only starting lineup that is feasible

    Not the only one, as they could also go with a two point guard lineup and Shump at the 3, but yes, I think with the fact that Woody even specifically said that he was considering starting Bargs with Melo that that lineup is definitely very likely.

  24. jon abbey

    Brian Cronin:
    Great move, but it is kind of odd that Artest is getting the full remaining money from the mini-MLE. What’s Artest need that extra $300,000 for?

    and does he even get it, or does that mean the Lakers pay him less? I guess it allows NY to pay him more next year, but it was funny/a little annoying to hear the first thing he just said in his interview “I didn’t care about the money. just give me a dollar, I’ll give the rest to charity.” (paraphrased from memory)

  25. Hubert

    er I think any starting lineup w Artest, Amar’e, or Bargnani at the 4 is feasible and I have no idea what Coach is going to want and I doubt the Knicks know, either.

  26. Dan Panorama

    I think if he clears waivers, the money is in addition to the Lakers amnesty $$$. So it’s not totally gratuitous.

  27. ephus

    Dan Panorama:
    I think if he clears waivers, the money is in addition to the Lakers amnesty $$$. So it’s not totally gratuitous.

    Nope. According to Larry Coon (I linked to his tweet yesterday), the Lakers get to recoup as if MWP were an ordinary waived player.

    But, since this is the last year of MWP’s Laker contract, the difference in money next year (an extra $360,000 if you assume that MWP will opt out and then sign again with the Knicks for the maximum 20% Non-Bird raise) goes into MWP’s pocket.

  28. danvt

    Hubert: Given who our coach is, I’m afraid Shumpert gets shafted in this scenario because “Coach like veteran”.

    I don’t think you should worry about it. It’s not a QB controversy or like taking someone out of a pitching rotation. Whoever makes the most of their minutes will play. Why would you think Woodson wouldn’t play Shumpert? He started him last year right off the injured list.

  29. Frank

    Brian Cronin:
    Great move, but it is kind of odd that Artest is getting the full remaining money from the mini-MLE. What’s Artest need that extra $300,000 for?

    My guess is that Grunwald and co. wanted to be sure they got him and so walked in with that offer of remainder of mini-MLE + player option on 2nd year. IMHO I think Artest is a HUGE get for this team, and could very well be a difference maker in the playoffs regardless of what THCJ and whatever thenbageek.com God he prays to. Grunwald apparently thinks the same, and so when you feel like that, you go in with your best offer.

    Clearly we need another defensive big, but I’m pretty sure Kenyon would come back if asked to. And I’m sure we could always dig up Kurt Thomas if necessary.

    jon abbey: we still have a ton of spots, Leslie is only #11, K-Mart would be #12.

    Chandler
    Melo
    Artest
    Shumpert
    Felton

    JR
    Bargnani
    Amare
    Prigioni
    Hardaway

    Leslie #11 (partially guaranteed contract, so he’ll stick)
    K-Mart hopefully #12
    Toure Murry #13
    Jeremy Tyler #14

    I’m ok going into the season with that crew. Much better mix of young and old than last year.

  30. Brian Cronin

    and does he even get it, or does that mean the Lakers pay him less? I guess it allows NY to pay him more next year, but it was funny/a little annoying to hear the first thing he just said in his interview “I didn’t care about the money. just give me a dollar, I’ll give the rest to charity.” (paraphrased from memory)

    The extra money Artest gets is offset by the following pay scale: The Lakers get back one half of the difference between Artest’s salary ($1.7 million) and the vet minimum for a one-year player (which is something like $780,000). So let’s say it is $900,000. So the Lakers get to deduct $450,000 from what they owe Artest. Then you add in the $1.7 million.

    The more Artest gets from his new team, the less the Lakers have to pay him, true. But here, the scale is so small, he is still basically just getting that extra money.

    But in any event, yes, it is odd that he asked for the full remaining mini-MLE, thereby keeping the Knicks from being able to use that on a different free agent who might really be swayed by the difference between the $1.7 million and the vet minimum for that player.

  31. JK47

    The players on this team who will likely get the bulk of the minutes are: Felton, Shumpert, MWP, Melo, Chandler, JR Smith. Those guys will all probably play 2000 minutes.

    The next tier of players eating up the minutes will be Prigioni, Stat, Bargnani and hopefully Kenyon Martin.

    End of the bench guys will be Hardaway Jr, possibly a vet min 3rd string PG and maybe a young big like Tyler or a vet min big.

  32. Frank

    meanwhile I’m loving these quotes out of Metta:

    “I don’t care if I’m starting. I don’t care if I’m sleeping on the floor. You hear me? I want to win”

    “I don’t think I’m the missing piece. I’m more honored to be playing with these players”

    “That orange & blue blood…you have to come home”

    “Prime is just a word, It’s about heart.”

    “Don’t even need to look at the contract. What is it, a dollar? That’s fine, just give me the paper and let me sign it.”

  33. ephus

    Brian Cronin: The extra money Artest gets is offset by the following pay scale: The Lakers get back one half of the difference between Artest’s salary ($1.7 million) and the vet minimum for a one-year player (which is something like $780,000). So let’s say it is $900,000. So the Lakers get to deduct $450,000 from what they owe Artest. Then you add in the $1.7 million.

    The more Artest gets from his new team, the less the Lakers have to pay him, true. But here, the scale is so small, he is still basically just getting that extra money.

    But in any event, yes, it is odd that he asked for the full remaining mini-MLE, thereby keeping the Knicks from being able to use that on a different free agent who might really be swayed by the difference between the $1.7 million and the vet minimum for that player.

    +1. The real difference is for a player who is between 4 – 10 years of experience, because the vet minimum is lower for each year. Like, for example, Nate Robinson.

  34. Hubert

    danvt: I don’t think you should worry about it.It’s not a QB controversy or like taking someone out of a pitching rotation.Whoever makes the most of their minutes will play.Why would you think Woodson wouldn’t play Shumpert?He started him last year right off the injured list.

    The players who made the most of their minutes got benched in the playoffs in favor of players who had more experience.

    JK47, I think it should be that way, but I’m afraid Shump ends up in the next tier.

  35. Hubert

    Frank:
    meanwhile I’m loving these quotes out of Metta:

    “Don’t even need to look at the contract. What is it, a dollar? That’s fine, just give me the paper and let me sign it.”

    But he took the rest of the mini MLE instead of the vets minimum so now we’re in a weaker position to sign a backup C, so…

  36. Brian Cronin

    +1. The real difference is for a player who is between 4 – 10 years of experience, because the vet minimum is lower for each year. Like, for example, Nate Robinson.

    Yeah, definitely. I should have been more clear about that, that that $1.7 million could be very appetizing for a guy who has to otherwise sign for $1,027,424 (while not being as big of a deal for a 10-year vet who is guaranteed $1.4 million).

  37. danvt

    Outstanding. I’m so happy. Welcome home Metta. I didn’t get it at first but now I really like how many times the sportscasters have to say World Peace when he plays. It’s actually kind of brilliant. Seems like he’s really shown contrition for the person he was in his low moments and the Lakers had nothing but positives for him. As far as I’m concerned we have the squad now. Kenyon Martin and we’re ten deep!

    PG:Prigioni, Felton, (Murry or Vet)
    SG:JR, Hardaway,
    SF:Shumpert, MWP, (Leslie probably)
    PF:Carmelo, STAT, Bargnani,
    C: Chandler, (KMart, Tyler)

    We can take one more guy. Terence Jennings!

    I saw something on the other thread about Metta and Shump sharing the court. I’m looking forward to that big time.

    But everbody’s getting the starting lineup wrong. They’re going to do what they did. PP, Felton, Chandler, Melo, Shumpert.

  38. Mike Kurylo

    jon abbey:

    hehe, a mistake and a typo are different things.

    and I love that you’re allowed to take personal shots without risk of censorship, while the rest of us are quickly muzzled.

    Are you saying I should ban Jim for saying “your highness”? I’m pretty sure I can go find 10 personal shots from you that are much worse in severity. Probably would only have to go back to that thread where Ted dropped on in to find all 10.

    As for MWP, am I the only feeling a sense of dread about this? Yes he’s a darn good player, and I think he’ll be a positive contributor. But I have a queasy feeling in my stomach that something could go majorly wrong. You know that one friend you don’t go drinking with, because when he passes that point, you might end up in a jail cell?

    Also not looking forward to him do anything on offense other than shoot a three or uncontested layup.

  39. Frank

    Brian Cronin: Yeah, definitely. I should have been more clear about that, that that $1.7 million could be very appetizing for a guy who has to otherwise sign for $1,027,424 (while not being as big of a deal for a 10-year vet who is guaranteed $1.4 million).

    I really think Grunwald probably walked in with the 1.7 offer. He probably knows Kenyon will sign for 1.4 (and actually I think Kenyon can sign for 1.4 +20% with non-bird exception? which is actually more than the rest of the mini-MLE at 1.68).

    Beyond KMart (who I assume is the next guy to come into the fold), we’re really looking at 15th men. Sounds pretty clear their 2 developmental guys are going to be Toure Murry and Jeremy Tyler. Leaves only 1 guy left. I’d say that 15th guy is probably totally insignificant, but of course our 15th guy 2 years ago was Jeremy Lin, and last year it was Copeland.

    My guess is that unless someone significant shakes free, we might be looking at Jared Jeffries 3.0 or Kurt Thomas 3.0. Good veteran guys who can be semi-coaches. I’m totally fine with that.

  40. Z

    I have to say, in the past two weeks Grunwald has made this team better, younger, and immensely more interesting.

  41. Hubert

    Mike Kurylo:
    As for MWP, am I the only feeling a sense of dread about this? Yes he’s a darn good player, and I think he’ll be a positive contributor. But I have a queasy feeling in my stomach that something could go majorly wrong. You know that one friend you don’t go drinking with, because when he passes that point, you might end up in a jail cell?

    Also not looking forward to him do anything on offense other than shoot a three or uncontested layup.

    I share your sense of dread on both counts. I’m trying to be optimistic though.

  42. jon abbey

    Mike Kurylo: Are you saying I should ban Jim for saying “your highness”? I’m pretty sure I can go find 10 personal shots from you that are much worse in severity. Probably would only have to go back to that thread where Ted dropped on in to find all 10.

    no one is talking about banning, I’m talking about Robert Silverman (and I thought Jim too, but he tells me no via e-mail) deleting any posts critical of his unreadable gibberish while leaving all posts inexplicably praising it.

  43. Frank

    Mike Kurylo: Also not looking forward to him do anything on offense other than shoot a three or uncontested layup.

    About 80% of his shots last year were either 3′s or at the rim. In comparison, efficient-shot-God James Harden only had about 70% of his shots from those places last year (although he had about 82% in 11-12 with OKC when he could pick and choose his shots more).

    I think we’d all be happy if he shot 4 out 5 shots from 3 or at the rim.

  44. jon abbey

    and of course anyone with any sense is dreading the downside of Artest, but this is what we’ve been reduced to as Knicks fans. I’m not kidding when I say I hope they are seriously looking at Stephen Jackson, might as well keep going down this road.

  45. ephus

    Frank: I really think Grunwald probably walked in with the 1.7 offer. He probably knows Kenyon will sign for 1.4 (and actually I think Kenyon can sign for 1.4 +20% with non-bird exception? which is actually more than the rest of the mini-MLE at 1.68).

    +1. K-Mart can sign for ~$1.67 million using his Non-Bird Rights. They can give him a player option for next year at ~$1.78 million. Put the two together and you are above the mini-MLE.

  46. Hubert

    Also, I don’t know why everyone is assuming Martin will come back for the minimum. He’s clearly holding out for something better, and probably wanted the rest of our mini MLE. If signing Artest costs us our backup C and leads to minutes for amare or Bargnani at the 5, I don’t know if it’s worth it.

  47. johnno

    I’ve been thinking about guys 13-15 on the roster. In those spots, you really want one of two types of guys — young high potential developmental guys (like Leslie/Tyler) or veteran guys who won’t complain if they are viewed as end of the bench insurance (Jared Jeffries/Earl Barron/Kurt Thomas) but who can capably step in if someone gets hurt. You really don’t want guys like Tyrus Thomas or Nate Robinson because they will get pissed if they aren’t playing because it hurts their future value.

  48. ephus

    Hubert. There is literally no financial difference between what was left of the Knicks’ MLE and the Non-Bird Rights contract that the Knicks can offer. If K-Mart goes elsewhere (and I doubt that he will), it will NOT be because of the financial aspect of the MWP signing. I have no idea how the two get along, but I imagine that Ruru will come along and drop some knowledge.

  49. danvt

    Mike Kurylo: You know that one friend you don’t go drinking with, because when he passes that point, you might end up in a jail cell?

    Thanks for giving us your opinion Mike. Interesting take on his skill set on offense. As to the other stuff, I’m not worried about him going Plaxico. I’m more concerned about something rash in a heated moment against IND in the playoffs. But I think it’s worth the risk.

  50. Frank

    This has to be a little dig at Lebron from MWP:

    “I want to do things that’s hard,” World Peace explained. “That’s the challenged of being challenged. We all know it’s the hardest place to win. Since [1975], right? ’73. ’72-’73. Why not take on something that’s hard?”

  51. ephus

    To be clear, the reason I think K-Mart will stay in NY is that if he wants to play next year, he can have Early Bird rights here, which would allow him to sign for up to the MLE without the negative consequences of using the MLE (no hard cap). I doubt he is going to get the full mini-MLE anywhere else this off-season, but the Knicks’s best offer would guarantee (between this season and next) as much as a one-year mini-MLE contract.

  52. jon abbey

    Hubert:
    Also, I don’t know why everyone is assuming Martin will come back for the minimum. He’s clearly holding out for something better, and probably wanted the rest of our mini MLE.If signing Artest costs us our backup C and leads to minutes for amare or Bargnani at the 5, I don’t know if it’s worth it.

    I get the impression from Woodson’s quotes that NY is somehow in the driver’s seat there, not Martin. FWIW, the only team rumored interested in Martin that I’ve seen has been the Spurs, and they are having roster squeeze issues already and probably can’t add anyone else.

  53. danvt

    I think we should all respect his wishes and call him by his newly adopted name, METTA WORLD PEACE.

    You can’t imagine even just symbolically what it means for this guy from Queens to finally come home. He really is playing for the team he’s loved from childhood, finally, and while he’s still got something left. As a life long fan it’s a great day for me.

  54. DCrockett17

    Oh I have so been looking forward to this…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MEUm08dz-s

    [KRS-One]
    World peace.. or world TALK?!

    Yeah..
    One, two, three, four!

    If we really want world peace
    and we want it right now
    We must make up our minds to take.. it..
    Right now!
    If we really want world peace
    and we want it right now
    Right now!
    We must make up our minds to take.. it..

  55. Frank

    danvt:
    I think we should all respect his wishes and call him by his newly adopted name, METTA WORLD PEACE.

    You can’t imagine even just symbolically what it means for this guy from Queens to finally come home.He really is playing for the team he’s loved from childhood, finally, and while he’s still got something left.As a life long fan it’s a great day for me.

    +1 totally agree. Hopefully it turns out better than the last hometown kid- Steph Marbury. I think it will — great quotes from Ken Berg’s article at CBS http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/22772916/knicks-metta-world-peace-youve-got-to-come-back-home

    “As a young kid growing up in Queensbridge projects, you go and get into that world where you go from nothing to make a million dollars a year,” World Peace admitted, “and so many people telling you, ‘you’re the best.’ And you believe that and you get in trouble.

    That’s what happens to a young kid that’s raised in a dysfunctional environment and a dysfunctional neighborhood. It takes 10 years for you to realize that you grew up in dysfunction and you’re going to continue to make mistakes if you don’t change. Not change, improve. You never want to change, you just want to improve.”

  56. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ephus: I will make you a wager, THCJ.I say the Knicks win 46 or more games this year, you get 45 or below.

    Loser has to +1 (and only +1) the winner’s posts on the post-game threads during the Knicks’ first round of the playoffs.No other comments are allowed.No personal disparagement of the loser is allowed (so you can’t make me +1 something reading “Ephus sucks”).

    Bet?

    I am more creative than “ephus sucks,” so intend on +1-ing some righteous love for linear regression.

    You’re on. It’s a deal. I assure you that you will not win. You better hope Shump actually turns into Dwyane Wade like everyone hopes.

  57. TheRant

    danvt: I think we should all respect his wishes and call him by his newly adopted name, METTA WORLD PEACE.

    I think we should expressly deny his wishes and call him Crazy Ron Ron.

  58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Frank: +1 totally agree. Hopefully it turns out better than the last hometown kid- Steph Marbury

    “If I didn’t play the way how I played, I wouldn’t have gotten no max contract,” he said. “They can talk about whatever they wanna talk about me, because I got maxed. I’m a max player. Don’t get mad at me, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.”

  59. Frank

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: “If I didn’t play the way how I played, I wouldn’t have gotten no max contract,” he said. “They can talk about whatever they wanna talk about me, because I got maxed. I’m a max player. Don’t get mad at me, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.”

    Yup. Hopefully MWP’s quote about growing up in the projects tells us something about where his head is now as opposed to where Steph’s was back then.

  60. ruruland

    Dread? I don’t know how some of you wake in the morning.

    One can argue that MWP at 1.7 is about as good of a bargain a team can get in the NBA outside of Lebron.

    Few guys have his prescence/energy, and he’ll obviously be a Garden favorite right off jump street.

    The fact that his teams consistently play much better when he’s on the floor despite not being a great statistical rebounder or shooter is, imo, irrefutable evidence of that.

    The odds that his 13 year +/- numbets are random given the hundreds of lineups and 10k + minutes he’s played is incredibly unlikely.

    Obviously his ball pressure and ability to mitigate the opponents best offensive player is a big part of that, but it still fails to explain the consistent elite level impact he has across huge numbers of lineup permutations on different teams over more than a decade.

    MWP plays with unbridled intensity, which can and will get him and the Knicks in trouble on occasion, but its far outweighed by the vitality of that intensity to teammates.

    It’s the KG effect.

    MWP makes a lot of winning plays every game, possession plays, momentum plays.

    This might be the best thing to happen to Tyson Chandler.

    And if Tyson comes back, is there any doubt that Shump, MWP and Chandler is not one of the 3 best defensive trips in the NBA?

  61. ruruland

    Excuse the typos above. Need to upgrade iPhone.

    Jowles, you’ve posted that quote at least 10 times since I’ve been here. Can’t imagine how many times you pasted it before. Scary.

  62. Unreason

    TheRant: I think we should expressly deny his wishes and call him Crazy Ron Ron.

    Or Mega Knooklier Disaster, or maybe P-Knuckle

    I’ll get over it soon enough. I thought it would take months to get use to KMart. It took about 15 min.

    I’m not sure he’ll help much on O but he’ll clearly help balance out Amare’s and Bargnani’s deficiencies. In a way I think having him and Leslie get regular PT could be good because it might help prevent lazy D habits that come from over reliance on the hot hands of high usage guys. To form a defensive identity that serves them well in the post season I think all the main Knicks need to learn to associated Ws with almost never taking a possession off on D.

  63. Hubert

    ephus:
    Hubert.There is literally no financial difference between what was left of the Knicks’ MLE and the Non-Bird Rights contract that the Knicks can offer.If K-Mart goes elsewhere (and I doubt that he will), it will NOT be because of the financial aspect of the MWP signing.I have no idea how the two get along, but I imagine that Ruru will come along and drop some knowledge.

    Are you certain we can offer Martin the 20% raise? I thought I read on Coon’s FAQ that non bird rights raises didn’t apply to players on on vets minimum deals.

  64. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    ruruland:
    Excuse the typos above. Need to upgrade iPhone.

    Jowles, you’ve posted that quote at least 10 times since I’ve been here. Can’t imagine how many times you pasted it before. Scary.

    What’s scary? That players like Marbury and Carmelo Anthony get max contracts because of their volume scoring? I know, right!?!?

  65. johnno

    Hubert: nwhile I’m loving these quotes out of Metta:
    “Don’t even need to look at the contract. What is it, a dollar? That’s fine, just give me the paper and let me sign it.”
    But he took the rest of the mini MLE instead of the vets minimum so now we’re in a weaker position to sign a backup C, so…

    I think that we should all get used to the fact that you can’t take absolutely everything that Metta says literally. I just think that it’s great to have a guy who acts like he’s really thrilled to play on your team.

  66. thenamestsam

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: What’s scary? That players like Marbury and Carmelo Anthony get max contracts because of their volume scoring? I know, right!?!?

    Quoting a clearly insane man as evidence of your position when you’ve disparaged numerous people for quoting basketball experts as evidence of anything seems…odd.

  67. EB

    thenamestsam: Quoting a clearly insane man as evidence of your position when you’ve disparaged numerous people for quoting basketball experts as evidence of anything seems…odd.

    Unless he’s using it as a joke instead of evidence to support his argument…

  68. Hubert

    ruruland:
    And if Tyson comes back, is there any doubt that Shump, MWP and Chandler is not one of the 3 best defensive trips in the NBA?

    This is one of the most enticing lineup combinations, but as I mentioned in the other thread, if the Felton/Chandler PnR isn’t working that lineup is essentially Melo on 5 on the other end.

    Frankly I don’t think any team outside of Miami (and to a far, far lesser extent, the Nets) has two perimter players that warrant this kind of attention. But it’s a nice weapon to have.

  69. Brian Cronin

    Are you certain we can offer Martin the 20% raise? I thought I read on Coon’s FAQ that non bird rights raises didn’t apply to players on on vets minimum deals.

    Non-bird rights players can get 20% raises, even if they were vet minimum guys. After all, pretty much every player that is non-Bird is almost inherently a vet minimum guy.

  70. jon abbey

    it does seem like one of JR, Bargnani or Amare has to start for the sake of the offense. this personnel is going to be even tricker to manage than last year’s, which was already very hard.

    Chandler/Bargnani/Melo/Shumpert/Felton
    K-Mart/Amare/Artest/JR/Prigioni

    that could work, I guess.

  71. DRed

    jon abbey:
    it does seem like one of JR, Bargnani or Amare has to start for the sake of the offense. this personnel is going to be even tricker to manage than last year’s, which was already very hard.

    Chandler/Bargnani/Melo/Shumpert/Felton
    K-Mart/Amare/Artest/JR/Prigioni

    that could work, I guess.

    There are going to be plenty of injuries to make Woodson’s decisions simpler.

  72. JK47

    Bargnani is just such a huge question mark. Are we really going to give starters minutes to a guy who, in his best season, averaged 6.3 rebounds per 36? To me, he’s the obvious odd man out.

    The JR/Shump/MWP trio should all get lots of minutes as the three primary wings. Stat should get 20 or so minutes a game to be the focus of the offense when Melo sits. Bargnani should be in the Novak role. If K-Mart is here he’s the defensive big off the bench.

    It shouldn’t really be that hard to make balanced lineups with the personnel the Knicks have.

  73. Bruno Almeida

    are you guys seriously thinking that MWP’s “presence” will be a relevant factor this season?

    in the end of the day, the NBA is about the leadership and production of your main stars and eventual contributions from role players, that’s it… we’ve all seen with Kidd and Billups last year what a washed up “super presence veteran” is on the court, a liability.

    if you want to talk about +/-, ok… MWP’s plus minus for last season was the 54th best in the NBA… know who’s 55? Jason Kidd, the guy who scored 11 points in 247 minutes last playoffs and retired right after… and you know who’s got an even better +/- per 36 than both? yes, mr. Chauncey Billups, the guy who shot 30% from the field and had 1 assist per game in 19.2 mpg for the Clippers in the playoffs.

    and with Woodson’s track record and the way this team is constructed right now, MWP could be playing 25 mpg next year… I know he’s still a useful defensive player and that’s a necessity with Bargnani and Stoudemire around, but it’s still a joke of a signing imo.

    I have to buy me 2 more bottles of Jack Daniel’s, I’ll need them for the season.

  74. JK47

    @82

    Sure, “presence” is overrated. “Playing defense,” however, isn’t. The Knicks were a below-average defensive team last year, and MWP gives them an obviously improved look on the defensive end. MWP is not a total zero on offense– .519 TS% last year, .342 from 3, 73% from the line… Those numbers aren’t great, but they are far from a black hole.

    Artest isn’t entering his age 39 season like Jason Kidd was last year; he’ll be 34. He’s also a physical freak– he’s incredibly strong and has always kept himself in great shape. He’s an incredible value for what amounts to half of the mini-MLE.

  75. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    thenamestsam: Quoting a clearly insane man as evidence of your position when you’ve disparaged numerous people for quoting basketball experts as evidence of anything seems…odd.

    I’m saying that a clearly insane man said, “I’m a max player,” and was right.

    If anything, it’s evidence that basketball decision-makers are bad at their jobs. Same old thing from Knicks management.

    45 wins.

  76. Z-man

    Everything has to be kept in perspective. Seriously, how can anyone complain about acquiring a player of MWP’s current ability for half of the MMLE? He is not a relic, nor is he coming off of an injury or a down season. I can see having issues with his character, but there is no disputing that, talent-wise, the guy is an absolute steal at this price. Even my bizarro blog-twin Z is sounding cautiously optimistic about this signing.

    This is also an absolute coup for GG in a publicity sense; it knocks the Nets off the back pages.

  77. SeeWhyDee77

    Happy with this move. Ironically, doesn’t it seem like we get players that should have been on our radar years too late? MWP, Bibby, BD, Stat (had a chance to draft him too), Terry Cummings, Buck Williams to name a few. Still this is a solid solid move. If Woodson is intent on leaving Melo at the 4, and MWP starts, then all he’ll be asked to do is fill in the blanks. Provide just enough scoring to keep defenses from keying on Melo, pass well, and help set a physical tone early on defense. I think he can be what Brewer was early in the season but with way more offense. Perfect fit as long as he stays locked in and healthy. One thing no one seems to catch with this move is, we will be getting a happy rejuvenated MWP. With something to prove. If Melo heals well and Stat, Bargnani and Chandler’s health are not big question marks..Grunwald has put this team in a nice position. Not like in BK where Kidd and Frank have to appease a lineup of ‘I’ve been that guy and I still can’ egos. Veteran or not, that’s a hard blend. Remember when the Lakers tried it? Not even Phil could coach a lineup with main stars and veterans who just ‘wanted to win’ to a championship. On paper they looked deadly as does Brooklyn. But is KG gonna be content with mainly pick and pop opportunities? What about Pierce bein mainly a spot up guy? Obviously their best offensive weapons are Lopez, Williams, and Johnson. If they could move Johnson for a 3 and D type who won’t demand touches that would be great for them. But Johnson makes like.. Fitty Leven dollars a year!!! They definitely won’t be a pushover though.

  78. Richmond County

    JR Smith is out 12-16 weeks after undergoing knee surgery. Looks like we’ll be leaning on Hardaway Jr. a little sooner than we might have liked.

  79. bobneptune

    Finally a move that actually addresses Knick deficiencies! Yeah!

    Metta give an actual option for guarding (to a degree) Le Bron, Pierce, Granger and the other 3/4′s that they need to match up with in order to move forward in the playoffs for 20 or so minutes a game. He can actually fight through screens instead of switching everything all the time.

    He also frees Melo to take a lesser match-up that will enable him to save his energy for the offensive end where he has value.

    It also means less minutes for Bargnani which can only be a good thing.

    On the negative side, having him as a running partner for JR on the streets of NYC might be like giving gasoline to a pyromaniac.

    It also means less minutes for JR/Shump which might not sit too well with JR. It remains to be seen how that will play out.

    Metta is also entering his 14th season and isn’t the defensive beast he was with Indiana and his WS/48 have been declining for many years, but he has a skill (somewhat eroded) that was sorely lacking from this roster yesterday.

    An acquisition that actually makes the Knicks better at playoff time.

  80. flossy

    Bruno Almeida: if you want to talk about +/-, ok… MWP’s plus minus for last season was the 54th best in the NBA… know who’s 55? Jason Kidd, the guy who scored 11 points in 247 minutes last playoffs and retired right after…

    Artest – 34 years old next season/30,000 MP career to date
    Kidd – 41 years old next season/50,000 MP

  81. MeloDrama

    I like the signing alot. The value of each of our top 2 players, Melo and Chandler, is that each guy has the ability to carry one end of the court to respectability; Chandler was the biggest reason we were able to play so small a season ago and not collapse defensively – we had an average to below average D, which is pretty fantastic considering everyone aside from the PG was playing “up” one position. And Melo can always get his own shot from an iso set, even if he’s surrounded by defensive specialists.

    We can play to both sides of that now. Put Chandler, Melo, Artest, Shump and either PG out there and have a defensive-minded team, or throw Chandler, Anthony, Barge or Ama’re, Smith and a PG on the floor.

  82. DRed

    DRed: There are going to be plenty of injuries to make Woodson’s decisions simpler.

    Well that didn’t take long.

  83. flossy

    Richmond County:
    JR Smith is out 12-16 weeks after undergoing knee surgery.Looks like we’ll be leaning on Hardaway Jr. a little sooner than we might have liked.

    At least he’ll only miss the first couple weeks of the season, at worst.

  84. MeloDrama

    flossy: Artest – 34 years old next season/30,000 MP career to date
    Kidd – 41 years old next season/50,000 MP

    Kidd was a good player for us last season, up until his shot became beyond useless in the playoffs. Great rebounding, passing, defense and ability to play with 2 other guards and push the ball was a big deal and probably why Woodson really, really was reluctant to pull the plug.

    Yeah, you can’t keep playing a guy that’s shooting 0% for 10 games straight, but even when he was shooting just ‘poorly’ he provided value.

  85. MeloDrama

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: What’s scary? That players like Marbury and Carmelo Anthony get max contracts because of their volume scoring? I know, right!?!?

    Anthony is clearly much better than Marbury. Stop that.

  86. Mike Kurylo

    jon abbey: no one is talking about banning, I’m talking about Robert Silverman (and I thought Jim too, but he tells me no via e-mail) deleting any posts critical of his unreadable gibberish while leaving all posts inexplicably praising it.

    “Gibberish”, “censorship”, “quickly muzzled” – you make it sound like we’re the NSA. I think you’re being overly dramatic on how things are run here. It seems like every day there’s a negative comment about the site, and I feel like I’m being killed by a thousand paper-cut sized jabs. If there’s something seriously wrong with the site, email me and I’ll be happy to work on it.

  87. Bruno Almeida

    flossy: Artest – 34 years old next season/30,000 MP career to date
    Kidd – 41 years old next season/50,000 MP

    I know, and it is a decent signing for the price it was, it’s just that I’m sick of the Knicks taking flyers on overrated has-beens.

    the Spurs keep finding players because they actually try to… a team that’s on the cusp of contending like the Knicks should try to find actual value from these small deals, much like the Spurs did with Danny Green, Splitter and so many through the years.

    instead, we put on court Kurt Thomas, Camby, Kenyon Martin, Kidd, now MWP… I get that those are useful veterans, one Danny Green is, for me, better than all those guys combined.

  88. DRed

    Bruno Almeida: I know, and it is a decent signing for the price it was, it’s just that I’m sick of the Knicks taking flyers on overrated has-beens.

    the Spurs keep finding players because they actually try to… a team that’s on the cusp of contending like the Knicks should try to find actual value from these small deals, much like the Spurs did with Danny Green, Splitter and so many through the years.

    instead, we put on court Kurt Thomas, Camby, Kenyon Martin, Kidd, now MWP… I get that those are useful veterans, one Danny Green is, for me, better than all those guys combined.

    We do seem to have a somewhat mystifying aversion to youthful players with upside. I like MWP, I’ve rooted for him since he was at St. John’s, it killed me when we took Fred Weiss instead of him, and it will be nice to see him in a Knicks uniform next season-but it’s not like he’s the missing piece that’s going to put us over the edge. It’s a short term low money deal, so there’s not much downside to it, but there’s not much upside either. We have so few players that you can reasonably expect to get better next season.

  89. MeloDrama

    Anthony gets a max contract because of his “volume scoring and shot creation,” ability to shoot the 3, ability to rebound exceptionally well for a 3 (which allows him to bump up to 4 and stretch the floor out, or just be an extra rebounder at the 3), and ability to draw fouls. He’s a poor defender, and that’ll always be a knock. But it’s also relatively easy to build around someone like this; he’s never been a champion, but just about all of his teams have won 50+.

    And watch how quickly the Denver defense falls flat this year. I love Gallo and Ill Will as much as anyone, but Denver added half of a playoff team’s rotation to their own a few years ago. THAT’S why they stayed afloat, it’s not like Melo walked away and they just stayed good with what was there.

    Now that Masai is gone and they’ve already gutted that roster and cut Karl loose, lets see if the guys we let go of are good enough to carry them into the playoffs. Mosgov is actually likely to receive legit minutes now. It’s obviously a happy day for them!

  90. Bruno Almeida

    DRed: We do seem to have a somewhat mystifying aversion to youthful players with upside.I like MWP, I’ve rooted for him since he was at St. John’s, it killed me when we took Fred Weiss instead of him, and it will be nice to see him in a Knicks uniform next season-but it’s not like he’s the missing piece that’s going to put us over the edge.It’s a short term low money deal, so there’s not much downside to it, but there’s not much upside either.We have so few players that you can reasonably expect to get better next season.

    yeah, that’s what I think… yes, he can shoot 35% from 3 and play good defense in 20 mpg, but it is a short term deal that has a low upside.

    this would be a great signing for a team that needed that last missing piece… but that’s not the Knicks’s case, I’m afraid… we still have tougher questions to assert to really challenge the top dogs.

  91. JK47

    Bruno Almeida: yeah, that’s what I think… yes, he can shoot 35% from 3 and play good defense in 20 mpg, but it is a short term deal that has a low upside.

    this would be a great signing for a team that needed that last missing piece… but that’s not the Knicks’s case, I’m afraid… we still have tougher questions to assert to really challenge the top dogs.

    Yeah, you’re right. We should have gone out and gotten Durant.

  92. Bruno Almeida

    JK47: Yeah, you’re right.We should have gone out and gotten Durant.

    Danny Green suddenly became Durant? that’s not what I said, if you read it at least once.

  93. JK47

    The point I’m making is this: at this late stage of the game, the die has been cast. We have Amar’e Stoudemire on a max contract, Carmelo Anthony on a max contract, Tyson Chandler on a $14M contract and Andrea Bargnani on an $11M contract. The team is way over the cap. We had a low draft pick. We had no full MLE to use, no bi-annual exception. And we’re going to sit here and complain when we’re able to acquire a good player for pennies on the dollar, because he’s not going to “put us over the top?” MWP was by far the best value available to us this entire offseason.

    Sure, it might be nice to have some high-upside guys. The reality is that the Knicks have no other choice other than to fill out the roster with guys making the veteran minimum or very close to it.

  94. Bruno Almeida

    @103

    I agree with what you’re saying, but I still would have used those roster spots on players with at least a minimal chance of future upside.

  95. ruruland

    Bruno Almeida:
    @103

    I agree with what you’re saying, but I still would have used those roster spots on players with at least a minimal chance of future upside.

    So fucking silly.

    Future upside?

    You would take a player who could maybe be as good as Artest in two years, who would then have to get paid like a 27/29 Artest would have to get paid?

    Any player with upside potential at the rate MWP was signed at, would also have large downside potential, which MWP doesn’t have.

  96. JK47

    Bruno Almeida:
    @103

    I agree with what you’re saying, but I still would have used those roster spots on players with at least a minimal chance of future upside.

    But for the most part those guys aren’t available in free agency. Who is out there with legitimate upside who would have been available for the money the Knicks had to spend? Keep in mind the Knicks only had the mini-MLE to spend and no assets to trade. You’re wishing they would have done something that was essentially impossible.

  97. ruruland

    JK47: But for the most part those guys aren’t available in free agency.Who is out there with legitimate upside who would have been available for the money the Knicks had to spend?Keep in mind the Knicks only had the mini-MLE to spend and no assets to trade.You’re wishing they would have done something that was essentially impossible.

    There might be a couple of guys who if you squint hard enough could project to be better than MWP is now, but the chances of those becoming very good role players in the future, let alone near future, is really unlikely, which is why they’re still available.

    Just stupid though, it all comes back to people bemoaning the Melo trade and the Amar’e signing — that’s all this will ever be about it and these people are never going to change no matter how different the circumstances are and how much the Knicks win.

  98. Z-man

    Bruno Almeida: yeah, that’s what I think… yes, he can shoot 35% from 3 and play good defense in 20 mpg, but it is a short term deal that has a low upside.

    this would be a great signing for a team that needed that last missing piece… but that’s not the Knicks’s case, I’m afraid… we still have tougher questions to assert to really challenge the top dogs.

    Again, we can’t compare apples to oranges. Who should the Knicks have signed that would have come here for the full MMLE? Was there a better way to use that money than on Prigioni and MWP?

    As to young guys with upside, what about THJ, Tyler, Jordan, Murry, and Shump? Beyond that, who are you talking about?

  99. bobneptune

    JK47: Yeah, you’re right.We should have gone out and gotten Durant.

    well, if we had a couple of picks and other sundries, we might have had a shot at this guy:

    October 27, 2012: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder with Cole Aldrich, Daequan Cook and Lazar Hayward to the Houston Rockets for Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, a 2013 1st round draft pick (Steven Adams), a future 1st round draft pick and a future 2nd round draft pick.

  100. Brian Cronin

    Yeah, I really don’t get the idea of criticizing this move because it doesn’t make the Knicks title favorites or something like that. If you want to criticize the Knicks’ roster in general, then fine, but that has nothing to do with this signing. It is just flat out a good signing. It might not be an amazing signing, but it is clearly a good one.

  101. bobneptune

    ruruland: So fucking silly.

    Future upside?

    You would take a player who could maybe be as good as Artest in two years, who would then have to get paid like a 27/29 Artest would have to get paid?

    ru,

    Don’t mix your metaphors or raise straw men.

    A player who might be as good as a 34 yr old Metta, would not be paid like a 27 yr old Artest, correct?

    Me likey this pick up for the reasons I mentioned above.

  102. bobneptune

    Brian Cronin:
    Yeah, I really don’t get the idea of criticizing this move because it doesn’t make the Knicks title favorites or something like that. If you want to criticize the Knicks’ roster in general, then fine, but that has nothing to do with this signing. It is just flat out a good signing. It might not be an amazing signing, but it is clearly a good one.

    It doesn’t make the Knicks favs, but it certainly improves their chances with certain match-ups that will arise in the playoff, so it surely improves their chances at minimal cost so it is therefore an excellent move.

  103. ruruland

    bobneptune: ru,

    Don’t mix your metaphors or raise straw men.

    A player who might be as good as a 34 yr old Metta, would not be paid like a 27 yr old Artest, correct?

    Me likey this pick up for the reasons I mentioned above.

    Say, 25 year old MWP. That’s the concept of upside. Guy who recently began performing at high level (for role) heading into prime years.

    Any player the Knicks would get in place of MWP, if he was high upside, would have a few years to demonstrate value, in all likelihood those years would occur prior to prime years, given the common usage of upside.

  104. Hubert

    ruruland:

    Any player with upside potential at the rate MWP was signed at, would also have large downside potential, which MWP doesn’t have.

    Come on, man. Ron Artest has unlimited downside potential. This could easily be Dennis Rodman on San Antonio.

  105. ruruland

    Hubert: Come on, man. Ron Artest has unlimited downside potential.This could easily be Dennis Rodman on San Antonio.

    There’s nothing that indicates he’s headed for such a fate in the near-future, inevitably careening towards the cliff like Kidd was — there were certainly signs for Kidd, statistically (I still feel he was played too much and wouldn’t have gone straight off cliff had he simply played less frequently)

    One, MWP’s TS% was the highest it’s been since his age 28 season. Two, his turnovers % was the lowest in his career. Three, his usage was the highest it’s been in four years. Four, his rebound rate was the highest it’s been since his age 29 season. Five, his 2.5 steal rate was still elite and better than his age 29 season in Houston.

  106. ruruland

    Clearly evidenced by the assist/to reductions, Artest was taken off of playmaking duties in a hybrid 4-out system.

    I think if that trend continues, and he’ll be in an even better system than he was last year, he should have middling to solid efficiency numbers when usage and turnovers are included.

    .517 ts with a sub 10 to % is ok, and certainly more than gets him by on offense when he is a possession machine, has a DEMONSTRATED ability to lift the play of his teammates through whatever immeasurable force you’d like to qualify it as, and reduces the effectiveness of the opponent’s best offensive 2-4 at a top 10 rate according to Synergy (he is still elite vs isolations and post-ups, and the Lakers poor team defense did not help him in the more team oriented Synergy stats)

    Going back to three years ago, you could easily make case he was best wing defender in the league.

    I would love to see a study that quantifies individual defensive impact by simply adding or subtracting to offensive efficiency numbers ppp, and then tossing out all the other defensive metrics.

    I mean, how would MWP’s TS% and offensive numbers change when counted his defensive possessions.

    I’d say if we counted his defensive contributions towards offensive metrics, adding everything above say average level defense, he’d be very efficient overall.

    It’s almost impossible to not consistently have +6 net rating w./out being a really really good player.

  107. danvt

    Mike Kurylo: If there’s something seriously wrong with the site, email me and I’ll be happy to work on it.

    The site is great (the best, I only go here for NYK news and often skip the links in the local rags) and has been riveting this July. I just thought you used to comment more than you do these days. I thought maybe you dropped off a bit after the MeloDrama. Maybe it’s just my impression. Anyway, thanks for any moderation you might bring to some of the polar opposite personalities on this board.

  108. danvt

    I’m not saying your comment had me in mind of course.

    danvt: The site is great (the best, I only go here for NYK news and often skip the links in the local rags) and has been riveting this July.I just thought you used to comment more than you do these days.I thought maybe you dropped off a bit after the MeloDrama.Maybe it’s just my impression.Anyway, thanks for any moderation you might bring to some of the polar opposite personalities on this board.

  109. Frank

    ruruland:

    .517 ts with a sub 10 to % is ok, and certainly more than gets him by on offense when he is a possession machine, has a DEMONSTRATED ability to lift the play of his teammates through whatever immeasurable force you’d like to qualify it as, and reduces the effectiveness of the opponent’s best offensive 2-4 at a top 10 rate according to Synergy (he is still elite vs isolations and post-ups, and the Lakers poor team defense did not help him in the more team oriented Synergy stats)

    Other problem with Synergy is that it can’t take into account the skill of the player you ar assigned to guard. If you’re up against Durant, LBJ, or whoever the other team’s best scorer is, of course you might not have elite numbers compared with the Steve Novaks of the world who get hidden on the opposing team’s least threatening player. That’s what makes guys like Tony Allen so amazing- great numbers despite constantly going up against the best.

  110. AvonBarksdale

    I was like YES! YES, We did it! after reading the news..my girlfriend comes in all excited she was like ” you got the job? ” (i’m currently looking for work and it’s tough as shit) and i was like “no we signed world peace”….she is still confused, but i’m still stoked, we def. need kenyon martin back still so hopefully we finalize that and i’m feeling a thousand precent better about our overall ability to beat up the nets and pacers first chances we get…i am gonna pretend there is no such thing as the playoffs until halfway through the season cause we were fucking awful.

  111. Z-man

    Mike K, love the site, and that lots of old-timers (and even you!) are popping back in.

    One recommendation: on the home page where the thread titles are listed, rather than have the beginning of the text of the article under the title, maybe have the text of the most recent comment…that might keep threads alive longer.

    I like jon abbey’s contributions and often agree with him, but not this time. I do think that comments should not be moderated/expunged unless they are way out of bounds, and KB has been pretty true to that standard.

  112. ruruland

    Frank: Other problem with Synergy is that it can’t take into account the skill of the player you ar assigned to guard. If you’re up against Durant, LBJ, or whoever the other team’s best scorer is, of course you might not have elite numbers compared with the Steve Novaks of the world who get hidden on the opposing team’s least threatening player. That’s what makes guys like Tony Allen so amazing- great numbers despite constantly going up against the best.

    Right, it’s not calibrated for a lot of variables, which is naturally the problem with every sports statistic.

    But yeah, fact that MWP was in about the 70th percentile in the two key individual defensive categories when you consider he was still always guarding the opponents best players, says a lot.

    It’ll be interesting to see how the Knicks defend the Nets next year. Will

    But they finally have the dup that can at least give some headaches to Wade/Lebron.

  113. ess-dog

    The problem with Metta, is that he somewhat duplicates what Shump brings to the table as a sf, and playing both together limits your offense greatly.
    I think the solution is to start JR and have your bench offense come from the Prig/Anare/Bargs pick and pop and roll.
    Shump can back up JR at the 2 and Metta at the 3.

  114. ruruland

    ess-dog:
    The problem with Metta, is that he somewhat duplicates what Shump brings to the table as a sf, and playing both together limits your offense greatly.
    I think the solution is to start JR and have your bench offense come from the Prig/Anare/Bargs pick and pop and roll.
    Shump can back up JR at the 2 and Metta at the 3.

    I kind of think Shump is actually better optimized playing smaller guys,not tiny pgs but bigger pgs up to some 3s. I think he can get exposed by the bigger players.

    They should really complement one another, but I suppose switching them out and having one really good wing defender on the floor at all times makes some sense too.

    My preferred starting lineup would be: Prigs, Shump, Artest, Melo, Chandler. That would be the really good defensive lineup, sort of slow and methodical on offense.

    I like changing pace with second units and have a sort of unit identity, which is why I’d run Felton, junior, THJ, Bargnani/Amar’e, Martin/Bargnani. A little more mobile than the first unit, certainly far better suited for up-tempo game.

    More of a true up-tempo team w/Felton. Either way, you’ll always have a 4-out lineup on the court.

    Also, I prefer to see Felton stick with a more diverse blend of higher usage guys, where he won’t be fooled into too much creation. Felton, Shump and Amar’e seem like they’d all relieve each other of the pressures to take bad shots — all scoring in different ways.

    The first unit might have some creation issues, but I think Shump can jump to the 20-22 usage range next season, which with Melo at 30-33 as the initiation point, should still be fine (assuming MWP is around 17-18, Prigs and Chandler 12-14 average)

  115. jon abbey

    Z-man:

    I like jon abbey’s contributions and often agree with him, but not this time. I do think that comments should not be moderated/expunged unless they are way out of bounds, and KB has been pretty true to that standard.

    how do you know? if you never see the deleted posts because they’re gone too quickly, how do you know if they should be deleted?

    honestly my only problem with the moderation/moderators (and I should tell Mike this privately, but oh well) is that it mostly seems to be done by Robert and Jim, who aren’t really part of the community here. internet forum moderation can only be done well by someone active in that forum IMO, speaking as someone who currently mods two sports forums on different sites and who has been active in numerous others over the years.

  116. jon abbey

    and as I’ve said before, the strength of this site has never been the articles, it’s always been the comments. most sites, that is reversed, so the chore of moderation is a different one, but the value of this site is almost entirely in the comments, IMO anyway.

  117. Igno-Bot 3000

    Great great signing. Loved everything he said regarding the Knicks too. Will be a fan favorite and I’m looking forward to seeing the Garden crowd embrace him. Signing him for more than the veteran’s minimum is a bit silly considering that he’s getting paid the same amount either way, but at this point I like the signing so much that I don’t even mind. I’ll always remember Kobe’s quote during either this past Laker season or the one before where he said that Ron was the only other player giving a full effort every night. Far from the lockdown defender or three-point specialist he might be (is he still?) touted as, but a solid rotation price for nothing. Looking forward to watching him play for us.

  118. nicos

    ruruland:

    My preferred starting lineup would be: Prigs, Shump, Artest, Melo, Chandler.That would be the really good defensive lineup, sort of slow and methodical on offense

    I think it might be a mistake to split up Felton and Chandler- Prigs unwillingness (or inability) to turn the corner makes it tough for him to run the high pnr from the top of the key consistently. He was better running the side pnr. Even given that Felton’s pnr effectiveness gets compromised by teams slumping off of him those multiple screen sets generated a ton of movement even when the pnr fizzled out. I think your line-up might be a bit TOO deliberate-with no consistent penetration outside of Melo I think you’d see a lot of standing around while Prigs or Melo pound the ball.

  119. max fisher-cohen

    ruruland: I kind of think Shump is actually better optimized playing smaller guys,not tiny pgs but bigger pgs up to some 3s. I think he can get exposed by the bigger players…

    I agree with most of this although I think you really can’t play Bargnani with Stoudemire. It’s the same issue as last year with too many one dimensional players making it hard to make balanced lineups, but I’d probably do something like this:

    Starters: Prigioni, Felton, Shumpert, Anthony, Chandler

    Bench rotation players: Aaron Brooks (assuming we get him), Smith, Stoudemire, Martin

    Artest and Bargnani would get minutes depending on matchups. The reason why I don’t have them as rotation players is because it’s damn near impossible to fit them while staying true to the formula through which the Knicks were most successful last year, which usually were structured like this:

    1 unselfish PG with lightning instincts for where to move the ball: Kidd and Prigioni

    1 three dimensional offensive threat (spot up or drive to pass or score off another player drawing the D) with who can play opposite Anthony: Felton and Smith

    1 primary scorer: Carmelo Anthony

    1 defensive anchor who can move his feet to trap pick and rolls: Martin and Chandler

    So that leaves 10-12 minutes for whoever backs Anthony up (ideally a scorer) and 48 minutes for whoever fills the other forward spot. I’m going with Shumpert for 30 of those minutes, and I’m using Smith or Stoudemire for the rest of the minutes as second forward and all the minutes backing up Anthony.

  120. BigBlueAL

    max fisher-cohen: I agree with most of this although I think you really can’t play Bargnani with Stoudemire. It’s the same issue as last year with too many one dimensional players making it hard to make balanced lineups, but I’d probably do something like this:

    Starters: Prigioni, Felton, Shumpert, Anthony, Chandler

    Bench rotation players: Aaron Brooks (assuming we get him), Smith, Stoudemire, Martin

    Artest and Bargnani would get minutes depending on matchups. The reason why I don’t have them as rotation players is because it’s damn near impossible to fit them while staying true to the formula through which the Knicks were most successful last year, which usually were structured like this:

    1 unselfish PG with lightning instincts for where to move the ball: Kidd and Prigioni

    1 three dimensional offensive threat (spot up or drive to pass or score off another player drawing the D) with who can play opposite Anthony: Felton and Smith

    1 primary scorer: Carmelo Anthony

    1 defensive anchor who can move his feet to trap pick and rolls: Martin and Chandler

    So that leaves 10-12 minutes for whoever backs Anthony up (ideally a scorer) and 48 minutes for whoever fills the other forward spot. I’m going with Shumpert for 30 of those minutes, and I’m using Smith or Stoudemire for the rest of the minutes as second forward and all the minutes backing up Anthony.

    I think that formula is gone. I wouldnt be surprised if the Knicks become a Top 10 defensive team while their offense drops from Top 3 to borderline Top 10. I guess the question is would you take a reduction in offensive efficiency for an increase in defensive efficiency? Of course the answer would be depends on how much the defense improves at the expense of the offense.

    I would be thrilled if both would be in the Top 10 obviously, even if its just borderline Top…

  121. massive

    Well, we sure do have some great defenders on our team this season. I like the MWP signing. The best part for me is the elbow he’d be willing to throw at Paul George or Luol Deng if we’re losing a critical game. Say what you want, but LA loses that game to OKC if MWP doesn’t throw that elbow at Harden.

    The saddest part about the Knicks is that our title aspirations all fall on Andrea Bargnani. Maybe Melo doesn’t get injured, but he always gets hurt. I’m gonna go ahead and predict 55 wins just off the strength of Mike Woodson’s always improving regular season playoff record. His regular season record always improves. I know that has to be the worst reason you’ll read here all summer, but I believe in his ability to put his players in position to excel. My opening day starting 5 is Felton, Shump, Melo, Bargs, and Chandler. I think Bargs gives us 15 points/36, 6-7 boards/36, and a block or two. I’m counting him as the biggest reason the Knicks improve.

  122. Brian Cronin

    think that formula is gone. I wouldnt be surprised if the Knicks become a Top 10 defensive team while their offense drops from Top 3 to borderline Top 10. I guess the question is would you take a reduction in offensive efficiency for an increase in defensive efficiency? Of course the answer would be depends on how much the defense improves at the expense of the offense.

    I would be thrilled if both would be in the Top 10 obviously, even if its just borderline Top…

    Borderline Top 10 in both would be sweet for me. That’s a legit title contender right there. Of course, legit title contender doesn’t even mean you make it out of the first round, but still, it is something the Knicks should aspire to.

  123. BigBlueAL

    Brian Cronin: Borderline Top 10 in both would be sweet for me. That’s a legit title contender right there. Of course, legit title contender doesn’t even mean you make it out of the first round, but still, it is something the Knicks should aspire to.

    I guess what I was hinting at is what would be better, having a Top 3 offense with a borderline Top 20 D like this past season or having an offense ranked 9th or 10th with a D ranked around 11th or even slightly better??

  124. jon abbey

    massive:
    Well, we sure do have some great defenders on our team this season. I like the MWP signing. The best part for me is the elbow he’d be willing to throw at Paul George or Luol Deng if we’re losing a critical game. Say what you want, but LA loses that game to OKC if MWP doesn’t throw that elbow at Harden.

    um, so they won a regular season game and then he ended up being suspended for the first six games of the playoffs, allowing DEN to take them to 7 and tire them out for a rested OKC team who demolished them in the second round.

    I don’t totally disagree with your point (although the threat of an elbow is generally a lot more effective than an actual elbow that lands), but you definitely need to rethink your example.

  125. JK47

    The Knicks were very good in two of the four factors last year on defense: defensive rebounding and turnovers. They were poor in defensive FT/FGA and poor in eFG% allowed.

    My hope is that MWP can help with those latter two. He’s great at holding his ground and playing solid straight-up defense without fouling. He also has the strength, willingness and determination to fight through screens. We should be a much more physical defensive team overall, especially if K-Mart returns.

    I don’t see MWP as a 20 minute per game player; he played 33 minutes a game for the Lakers last year and has played 2000+ minutes year in, year out. He’ll be a mainstay of the rotation. Whatever intangibles on the offensive end the Knicks lost with Kidd, they just gained on the defensive end with MWP.

  126. ruruland

    nicos: I think it might be a mistake to split up Felton and Chandler- Prigs unwillingness (or inability) to turn the corner makes it tough for him to run the high pnr from the top of the key consistently.He was better running the side pnr. Even given that Felton’s pnr effectiveness gets compromised by teams slumping off of him those multiple screen sets generated a ton of movement even when the pnr fizzled out.I think your line-up might be a bit TOO deliberate-withno consistent penetration outside of Melo I think you’d see a lot of standing around while Prigs or Melo pound the ball.

    Good post. I agree with this in most respects.

  127. ruruland

    You know, Nicos is right. I ‘ve been a proponent of Prigs starting for most of the calender year, but much of that as I reflect back was based on Melo and Amar’e playing together. I really like Prigs w/both Melo and Amar’e. But you’re right, all of those points I agree with.

  128. ruruland

    max fisher-cohen: I agree with most of this although I think you really can’t play Bargnani with Stoudemire. It’s the same issue as last year with too many one dimensional players making it hard to make balanced lineups, but I’d probably do something like this:

    Starters: Prigioni, Felton, Shumpert, Anthony, Chandler

    Bench rotation players: Aaron Brooks (assuming we get him), Smith, Stoudemire, Martin

    Artest and Bargnani would get minutes depending on matchups. The reason why I don’t have them as rotation players is because it’s damn near impossible to fit them while staying true to the formula through which the Knicks were most successful last year, which usually were structured like this:

    1 unselfish PG with lightning instincts for where to move the ball: Kidd and Prigioni

    1 three dimensional offensive threat (spot up or drive to pass or score off another player drawing the D) with who can play opposite Anthony: Felton and Smith

    1 primary scorer: Carmelo Anthony

    1 defensive anchor who can move his feet to trap pick and rolls: Martin and Chandler

    So that leaves 10-12 minutes for whoever backs Anthony up (ideally a scorer) and 48 minutes for whoever fills the other forward spot. I’m going with Shumpert for 30 of those minutes, and I’m using Smith or Stoudemire for the rest of the minutes as second forward and all the minutes backing up Anthony.

    Interesting.

  129. ruruland

    Nice post, massive.

    When you really think about the Knicks roster, I can’t come up with another team that’s as uniquely and as diversely constructed as the Knicks, with perhaps the exception of the Spurs.

    What other team has an elite offensive player top 15 guy and a top 5 center (when he’s motivated?) Maybe Brooklyn. San Antonio. (Parker and Duncan) and now Houston.

    Okay, what team can combine those two with an excellent wing defensive duo that can function as shooters and drivers on offense?

    Okay, well what team also has two very good pnr guards with wildly different styles that help facilitate a true 4-out offense? Maybe San Antonio?

    Sure, but on top of that, what team can bring three extremely talented offensive players off the bench all who are either above average to great off the ball and can also create?

    A premier post-player and pnr player off the bench, JR, and a guy in Bargnani who is one of the best floor-stretching bigs in the NBA on offense and can post smaller players (we can revisit why his efficiency will go up in NY)

    Obviously Miami is top heavy with excellent shooting and great perimeter defense, but they don’t have a post-presence or a defensive big like Chandler is capable of being.

    Goes w/out saying they have the best player and great shooting, but they Knicks now have ways to both match-up with the Heat’s strengths — Artest and Shumpert — while also attacking their weaknesses as they so successfully did last season.

    The Bulls probably have better bigs — and more two-ways rebounding bigs — and a great team defense, but they certainly lack the kind of diversity offensive weapons the Knicks will have at full strength.

    The Pacers? Don’t think so.

    Maybe the Clippers and Spurs are more loaded than the Knicks in terms of depth of talent, and they are younger, less injury prone.

    But purely from ability perspective Knicks are in th3 top 3-4 teams imo.

  130. nicos

    ruruland: Good post. I agree with this in most respects.

    And I think Prigs/Stat pnr could work really well. Unlike Chandler, Stat doesn’t need to be spoon-fed at the rim so Prigs wouldn’t need such deep penetration plus Amar’e’s great at quickly resetting the pnr so if prigs is reluctant to shoot the play won’t stop dead. But as you say, when both Stat and Melo are on the floor Prigs might be a better fit than Felton- the Melo/Stat pnr worked really well last year and having Pablo- who’s a better shooter and decision-maker out of kick-outs than Felton- might be an improvement.

  131. ruruland

    nicos: And I think Prigs/Stat pnr could work really well.Unlike Chandler, Stat doesn’t need to be spoon-fed at the rim so Prigs wouldn’t need such deep penetration plus Amar’e’s great at quickly resetting the pnr so if prigs is reluctant to shoot the play won’t stop dead.But as you say, when both Stat and Melo are on the floor Prigs might be a better fit than Felton- the Melo/Stat pnr worked really well last year and having Pablo- who’s a better shooter and decision-maker out of kick-outs than Felton- might be an improvement.

    Yep, Prigs/Amar’e pnr are a natural combo because Amar’e prefers catching the ball with enough space to maneuver around defenders, so much better with momentum. Prigs likes to get the ball out early in pnr and has very good timing and placement — he is not really a lob/layup guy like Felton is even when he cuts the corner. He is always reading peripherally and probing. A poor man’s Nash in pnr, without the mid range offense.

  132. DRed

    “But purely from ability perspective Knicks are in th3 top 3-4 teams imo.”

    Believing the Knicks are one of the top 3-4 teams in ability is about as realistic as believing aliens have been landing in Zimbabwe.

  133. Mike Kurylo

    Thanks dan,z-man, and jon. As much as I would like to make the comments on the front page, it would slow things down and the back & make the site more vulnerable to slowness/downtime. I’ll see if I can up the number in most recent comments.

    As for having another moderator, I’d be willing to have someone that’s impartial and levelheaded do the job. I’m not here 24/7 so I’m fine with another pair of eyes keeping the peace. If anyone is interested – hit me up on the contact page.

  134. Bruno Almeida

    ruruland: So fucking silly.

    Future upside?

    You would take a player who could maybe be as good as Artest in two years, who would then have to get paid like a 27/29 Artest would have to get paid?

    Any player with upside potential at the rate MWP was signed at, would also have large downside potential, which MWP doesn’t have.

    oh, so we’re not signing promising guys because we would have to pay them in 2 years?

    that is stupid.

    I’m not against the MWP signing so much, I’m against the clear philosophy of this franchise since Grunwald has been the GM: if you fill those 8-12 roster spots with known quantities, that’s all you’re ever going to get.

    last year we had Camby, Kurt Thomas, Jason Kidd, Pablo Prigioni and Rasheed Wallace, all decent enough veterans who are known quantities and that’s it.

    that’s a good enough approach for a team that’s on the cusp of winning a title. The New York Knicks is not anywhere near that.

  135. jon abbey

    so who are these promising guys you think we could actually sign? those guys don’t sign for the minimum, in part because their minimum is lower since they have less service time.

  136. Bruno Almeida

    jon abbey:
    so who are these promising guys you think we could actually sign? those guys don’t sign for the minimum, in part because their minimum is lower since they have less service time.

    I’m not an NBA insider, I don’t watch the D-League and Summer Leagues.

    I’m talking about giving chances to 2nd rounders or undrafted guys, like Danny Green, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Carlos Boozer, Luis Scola, Marcin Gortat, Lou Williams, Paul Millsap, Carl Landry, Ramon Sessions, DeAndre Jordan, Omer Asik, Goran Dragic, Wesley Matthews, Chase Budinger, Patrick Beverley, Lance Stephenson… and so on…

    identifying these type of guys is obviously not my job, but you’re not gonna make it when you ignore the lower rounds of the draft and when you give all the remaining available minutes to a 35 year old brigade.

  137. jon abbey

    they signed CJ Leslie, who might as well have been a second rounder. and why would you name every non-first round FA from recent years and not name the ones the Knicks have hit on (Lin, Copeland, Prigioni for starters)?

  138. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Bruno Almeida: I’m not an NBA insider, I don’t watch the D-League and Summer Leagues.

    I’m talking about giving chances to 2nd rounders or undrafted guys, like Danny Green, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Carlos Boozer, Luis Scola, Marcin Gortat, Lou Williams, Paul Millsap, Carl Landry, Ramon Sessions, DeAndre Jordan, Omer Asik, Goran Dragic, Wesley Matthews, Chase Budinger, Patrick Beverley, Lance Stephenson… and so on…

    identifying these type of guys is obviously not my job, but you’re not gonna make it when you ignore the lower rounds of the draft and when you give all the remaining available minutes to a 35 year old brigade.

    QFT

  139. DRed

    jon abbey:
    they signed CJ Leslie, who might as well have been a second rounder. and why would you name every non-first round FA from recent years and not name the ones the Knicks have hit on (Lin, Copeland, Prigioni for starters)?

    Because we let them go and replaced them with old guys, except for the one who already was old?

  140. Bruno Almeida

    Lin and Copeland are good ones, and I really like the C.J Leslie move, but Prigioni is 36 and has no considerable upside.

    who else have the Knicks “hit on”? I can’t remember.

    since 1990, Greg Anthony, Charlie Ward, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari and Iman Shumpert are pretty much the only guys who actually were drafted and played decently for this team.

    that’s 6 picks out of 36, and that’s not counting the other 12 or so picks we were supposed to have and traded away.

  141. Bruno Almeida

    oh, and none of those guys, except Ward, played for more than 5 years on the Knicks, by the way.

  142. jon abbey

    two different arguments combined, most of the guys listed above have changed teams at least once also.

    NY has two rookies already (Hardaway, Leslie) and will likely add at least one more young guy with so many roster spots left, maybe Tyler.

  143. Bruno Almeida

    jon abbey:
    two different arguments combined, most of the guys listed above have changed teams at least once also.

    NY has two rookies already (Hardaway, Leslie) and will likely add at least one more young guy with so many roster spots left, maybe Tyler.

    let’s hope so, I’m kinda more hopeful about Leslie than I probably should be.

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