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Wednesday, November 26, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, May 29 2013)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks great Ewing could join Charlotte staff (Wed, 29 May 2013 05:13:36 GMT)
    Patrick Ewing has emerged as a candidate to join former Knicks assistant coach Steve Clifford with the Charlotte Bobcats. Clifford agreed to become Bobcats head coach on Monday, and his relationship with Ewing dates back to the late ’90s when Clifford joined Jeff Van Gundy’s staff.    

  • [New York Times] Column: LeBron Gets More Attention Than He Wants (Wed, 29 May 2013 07:57:08 GMT)
    LeBron James likely did himself no favors with the refs by fueling the debate over flopping just ahead of Game 4.    

  • [New York Times] Pacers Beat Heat to Knot Eastern Final at 2 Apiece (Wed, 29 May 2013 07:53:57 GMT)
    The open looks Udonis Haslem and Chris Bosh took advantage of to help the Heat win Game 3 disappeared in Game 4, and so has Miami’s lead over Indiana in the Eastern Conference Finals.    

  • [New York Times] Game 4: Pacers 99, Heat 92: Pacers Hold Off Heat’s Charge and Even Series (Wed, 29 May 2013 05:26:43 GMT)
    Miami held an 89-86 advantage with just over 5 minutes to play, but the Pacers, led by center Roy Hibbert, went on an 8-0 tear and never trailed again, evening the series at 2-2.    

  • [New York Times] Game 4: Pacers 99, Heat 92: Pacers Get Even With Game 4 Victory (Wed, 29 May 2013 04:51:42 GMT)
    Roy Hibbert had 23 points and 12 rebounds and Lance Stephenson added 20 points as Indiana charged back late to beat Miami and tie the Eastern Conference finals at 2-2.    

  • [New York Times] Pacers Fend Off Heat to Square Series (Wed, 29 May 2013 04:02:50 GMT)
    The Indiana Pacers withstood a late Miami charge to beat the Heat 99-92 and square their Eastern Conference final at two games all on Tuesday.    

  • [New York Post] Source: Carmelo wants Knicks to add another scorer (Wed, 29 May 2013 02:02:42 -0500)
    Carmelo Anthony agrees with the sentiment of Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim regarding the state of the Knicks’ roster — he needs help.
    According to a source, Anthony has told a confidant he is concerned management will stand pat this offseason and said he believes the team needs to add a bona…

  • 80 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, May 29 2013)

    1. Vinny L.

      1. I don’t trust the NY Post
      2. Knicks lost game 6 because of horrible coaching and horrible (corrupt) officiating:

      Knicks: 34 Personal Fouls
      Pacers: 16 Personal Fouls
      Pacers: 46 free throw attempts
      Knicks: 18
      Fouled out: Shump, Tyson, Kenyon.
      Pacers: None (no Pacer was even in foul trouble!)

      Coaching: Shump gets hot all the way up to the end of the 3rd quarter. Score is tied up 79-79. Then Shump gets taken out the game in the beginning of the 4th quarter.

      Copeland gets hot in the 4th quarter, hits two big 3’s putting Knicks up 87-84. Then Copeland gets taken out the game (92-92) and then bricks, turnovers, bad calls, and ISO ball with Melo and J.R. ensues…

      Non-threat Prigioni plays the entire 4th quarter!!! Prig didn’t play the 4th quarter in the game 5 Knick victory. We didn’t see Felton until the end of the 4rd quarter (game 6).

      The coach couldn’t figure out that Prig couldn’t guard Stephenson, George, and West on the switch off’s.

      STAT sits the entire game so he wasn’t given opportunity to score or absorb some of those horrible foul calls.

      The problem is Woodson has to go!

    2. Vinny L.

      I like the core the Knicks have now. They just need a real playoff coach who doesn’t have an irrational “dislike” for young players.

      I’d be very happy if the Knicks drafted PG Nate Wolters of South Dakota State:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojXhPClIX8I

      New York loves ball handlers who can shoot. This is the home of Rucker Park and the And1 Mixtape classics. RIP Alimoe aka the Black Widow.

      I would also be happy if Knicks snatched up one of the Pacers & Spurs YOUNG free agent big’s:

      Jeff Pendergraph
      2013 Salary: $1,500,000

      Dejuan Blair
      2013 Salary: $1,054,000

    3. johnno

      Message to Woodson — next time you play the Pacers, ignore their size advantage, play small ball, don’t worry about double teaming Hibbert or coming up with a way to defend West and don’t give a second thought to their rebounding advantage. Do exactly what Spoelstra is doing. Unlike you, he is a coaching genius! Oh, what’s that? The well-rested Heat, who have the most talented team in the league by far, are tied 2-2 and should be down 3-1? And Hibbert is averaging 23 and 12 through 4 games (despite Vogel’s nonsense about how the Heat have a much more intelligent defensive plan against him than the Knicks did) and abusing Bosh? And West is torching the Heat too? And the West-Hibbert duo is averaging about the same points, rebounds and shooting percentage as LeBron and Wade? And the Pacers have a huge rebounding advantage? Never mind…

    4. Hubert

      Reposting from other thread:

      ruruland: I said that months ago. There’s no doubt, but people will believe whatever they want. Think for yourself.

      Do you not see Melo as someone who is very competitive, deeply concerned with his legacy, and who’d do just about anything to get that gorilla off his back?

      Do you believe him when he talks about his childhood dream of bringing a chip to NY? Is that all empty hackneyed marketing and pr?

      By the time Melo decided he wanted out of Denver, he was 25. The machinations of the trade and the second big max contract all happened just after his 26th birthday.

      Maybe he is not quite the big picture thinker Lebron is, but he was not virtually guaranteed to be a billionaire at 24, either.

      It’s been a decade and I think Melo, with the limitations he has relative to the all-time greats, is sick of trying to prove himself every year as a guy who can essentially carry a team by himself. And I know he doesn’t, but let’s be honest, at this point in his career, he’s carried a far bigger offensive load than Wade had, Kobe, even Lebron. Shit, T-Mac had Yao Ming for a few years, even if injuries stopped them from forming a great team.

      Is it really hard to tell that Melo is way beyond the money at this point?

      Someone doesn’t dramatically change their mental approach to the game, life even, as Melo has in NY, if he is primarily concerned about wealth.

      Melo has a net worth close to half a billion. He’s a successful businessman.

      You don’t think he’s licking his chops at the chance to form a team in ’15 that can win a couple of championships, taking, what, a $10 million annum paycut?

      Sorry, Ruru but this is some righteous bullshit about a guy who forced us to give up all our assets to acquire him rather than come here as a free agent. The ONLY thing he was concerned about then was his contract. And there is no reason to think he’s going to care less about it the next time his contract is up.

      He already gave up the chance to put his legacy and his reputation over his contract. Without his greed, we’d have Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, numerous draft picks, amnesty to use on Amar’e…basically we’d have had a shit ton of flexibility.

      Instead he got his contract.

      He’s won me over since then, but that happened and it hurt the Knicks. So please don’t tell me there is ANY reason to expect Carmelo Anthony to play for 50 cents on the dollar just to help the Knicks win a championship.

      It’s insulting.

    5. Brian Cronin

      Chandler would have had to be renounced for them to sign Melo.

      But otherwise, yes, I do agree that Melo’s thoughts back then were not just about helping the Knicks. I don’t begrudge the guy at all for trying to get as much money as he possibly could, but that’s what he did (same with Amar’e, of course. They each wanted the Knicks to add a third star, but neither were interested in taking the pay cut necessary to acquire said third star).

    6. thenamestsam

      Brian Cronin:
      Chandler would have had to be renounced for them to sign Melo.

      Not if Melo had taken the 10 million per year paycut that he’s now apparently eager to take right? Anyway, I’ll believe it when I see it, and not because I’m in any way critical of Melo. Show me the last time an athlete in his prime took anywhere near that kind of paycut to try to build a winning team. Older guys trying to get that one last shot, maybe. But with guys in their prime? A 10M per year paycut? I wouldn’t expect that from myself. Hell, I wouldn’t expect that if Mother Teresa herself was on the Knicks. And I certainly don’t expect it from Melo.

      On another note, the NBA desperately needs to get its officiating house in order. That game last night kept threatening to turn into a legitimate classic, except the refs just could not get out of the way and in the end I was just left thinking that the result is almost meaningless. We didn’t get to see either team take their best shot at winning it. Something has to be done because the guys these are supposed to be the best of the best, and they’re embarrassing themselves and the league to an overwhelming degree.

    7. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, the $10 million pay cut thing was just silly. I imagine ruru was thinking more along the lines of some kind of pay cut, which I could believe. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t take any pay cut at all, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he gave the Knicks a slight discount. But yes, there is no way the guy is taking a 50% pay cut when he would still basically be in his prime. The closest example we have is Paul Pierce taking a 25% pay cut when he was 33 years old and that’s pretty much the only instance of a guy doing that. Lebron and his pals took roughly 10% pay cuts.

    8. Hubert

      Brian Cronin:
      Chandler would have had to be renounced for them to sign Melo.

      But otherwise, yes, I do agree that Melo’s thoughts back then were not just about helping the Knicks. I don’t begrudge the guy at all for trying to get as much money as he possibly could, but that’s what he did (same with Amar’e, of course. They each wanted the Knicks to add a third star, but neither were interested in taking the pay cut necessary to acquire said third star).

      I used to begrudge him. I don’t any more.

      But I have trouble abiding being told to expect him to play for $13 million instead of $26 million because some time between age 26 and 28 he completely changed and now all he cares about is the Knicks.

      And the tone of RuRu’s screed seemed to imply that *we’re* crazy for not already knowing that this guy is going to halve his salary in 2015 to bring in some premium free agents.

      Sorry, RuRu. I love your optimism. It got me through some tough stretches this season. But that’s beyond rational.

    9. Garson

      If i recall correctly, All Melo needed to do was publicly state that he would only sign with the Knicks .

      At that time, Brooklyn and the Knicks were in a bidding war with Denver. If Melo says no to Brooklyn, Knicks would have held most of the cards as Denver would not have lost him for nothing.

      (Denver also had the ability to bluff Melo that if he doesn’t accept a trade to Brooklyn or sign with Denver , He would need to ride out his contract and risk signing a less lucrative deal under the new CBA.)

      However , Since Melo thought only of himself and not the better of the team, he forced his way out in a way that cost us all our blue chips.

      He could have also played out his contract and signed with them without forcing a trade … But who does that anymore?

    10. Nick C.

      Wasn’t Melo also doing Denver a favor? He could have strung them along like LBJ or left them high and dry like Bosh. I gave him credit for at least being up front about wanting to leave when the contract expired. What I don’t get is he previously signed some sort of extension so, to me, it was surprising to see what seemed like an about face.

    11. johnno

      Nick C.: He could have strung them along like LBJ or left them high and dry like Bosh. I gave him credit for at least being up front about wanting to leave when the contract expired.

      This is exactly why I don’t understand why anyone criticizes Melo for the whole so-called “Melo-drama.” He did them a huge favor by giving them a year of advance notice of his plans so that they could maximimze their return. Their management chose to drag it out for half a season to squeeze as much as they could out of the Knicks and he gets criticized? Doesn’t make sense to me.

    12. thenamestsam

      johnno: This is exactly why I don’t understand why anyone criticizes Melo for the whole so-called “Melo-drama.”He did them a huge favor by giving them a year of advance notice of his plans so that they could maximimze their return.Their management chose to drag it out for half a season to squeeze as much as they could out of the Knicks and he gets criticized?Doesn’t make sense to me.

      I think there’s two aspects of it. In terms of doing right by his own organization, Melo did the right thing. It wasn’t a selfless decision obviously because part of his motivation was certainly to secure a deal in his desired location prior to the new CBA, but he did a good thing telling Denver he was intending to leave a the end of the year and they then chose to make the process long and ugly in the hopes of getting as much as possible in return. That part isn’t on him. And they succeeded. So Melo did right by Denver certainly.

      But his actions certainly didn’t help the Knicks. He wasn’t obliged to do the Knicks any favors which is why I’m not generally critical of this fact, but I do think it’s a fair point to bring up when Ruru starts talking about Melo’s childhood dreams of bringing a chip to the Knicks or how much money he’s going to give up to strengthen the team. Because when the chips were down Melo did right by his wallet and he did right by Denver.

    13. d-mar

      Not to deviate from the 100th rehash of the Melo deal, but I saw an interesting stat today that LeBron has driven at Hibbert 18 times and only made 1 shot. So I guess he and Melo have that in common.

      Hibbert really is the great wall on defense, all he has to do is stand there to deter penetrators.

    14. yellowboy90

      d-mar:
      Not to deviate from the 100th rehash of the Melo deal, but I saw an interesting stat today that LeBron has driven at Hibbert 18 times and only made 1 shot. So I guess he and Melo have that in common.

      Hibbert really is the great wall on defense, all he has to do is stand there to deter penetrators.

      Didn’t he make a couple of floaters over hibbert in one game? I could be wrong but that stat sound wrong. It’s interest though because just watching the last two games it doesn’t seem Hibbert is helping as much when Lebron attacks. He seems to be late more in this series

    15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      yellowboy90: Didn’t he make a couple of floaters over hibbert in one game? I could be wrong but that stat sound wrong. It’s interest though because just watching the last two games it doesn’t seem Hibbert is helping as much when Lebron attacks. He seems to be late more in this series

      It’s a testament to team defense that the Pacers would probably be up 3-1 had Vogel not made the dumbest substitution call that I can remember.

    16. Frank

      thenamestsam: But his actions certainly didn’t help the Knicks. He wasn’t obliged to do the Knicks any favors which is why I’m not generally critical of this fact

      He absolutely should have felt obliged to do the Knicks some favors because he was trying to join the team!!

      We talked about this deal ad nauseum back then, but basically it was a 3 way game of chicken between Ujiri, Melo, and Dolan. Ujiri managed to get a perfect partner/foil by dragging Prokhorov into it. And at the end of the day, both Melo and Dolan blinked, and Ujiri won. Simple as that. And to be honest, I don’t totally blame Melo and Dolan. I don’t blame Melo because for all anyone knew at the time, the new CBA could have said 3 year max contracts at $14MM/year for new FAs ($42MM total) instead of the 5 year 100MM contract he signed. And in fact, Tyson basically signed a 4 year 58MM contract as a “max deal”. It’s very difficult to begrudge someone $40+MM.

      Now Ruru makes the point that Melo has enough money now that he doesn’t have to force the issue and get paid max dollars on his next contract. I’ll believe that when I see it, but I don’t think that his past behavior rules out the possibility — after all, he’ll have already made 80+MM from NYK before that. So now maybe he’s made enough money. On top of that — he was 26 at the time of the MeloDrama, still just a kid. By this next contract, he’ll be 30+. That’s a big difference not just physically and what he should deserve but also in terms of maturity, setting priorities, etc.

      Overall I wouldn’t be surprised (with zero insight into how Melo thinks btw) if he opts out after 2014, then resigns with us for 4 more years at $15M/year or something like that. He gets 3 more years of guaranteed $ than he would have had, while giving his team a little more flexibility.

    17. thenamestsam

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: It’s a testament to team defense that the Pacers would probably be up 3-1 had Vogel not made the dumbest substitution call that I can remember.

      I hear people saying this 3-1 thing, but it’s totally fallacy of the predetermined outcome. I don’t think Game 2 is the same at all if Miami is down 1-0 vs. up 1-0. But I do think it’s enough to say that it’s a testament to team defense that they’ve forced 3 close games against Miami (and won 2) through 4 games. Not many would have expected the series to be this closely contested overall.

    18. ruruland

      Right, the biggest point I tried to make was that the next contract situation is much different than the last.

      At the point Melo had set his sights on NY with the idea of getting an old CBA max, he had made $57 million pre-tax in his career.

      By the time Melo’s contract is up in ’15, he’ll have made $101 million over just five years.

      He makes $10 million a year in endorsements, which would obviously go up if even higher if he somehow overcame Lebron/Durant while playing in Man-fucking-hattan, and over a long period could virtually disappear if he left New York to go to a smaller market. His Nike deal comes up the same year he hits FA.

      That’s to say nothing of his various other assets, business holdings, investments, etc (luxury watch magazine, Perfect Jumper, camps, Lala, lol)

      Under the new CBA, there is a cap hold on Bird rights, so the Knicks can’t go out and build a great, high-priced team around Melo and then sign him to a max.

      Melo will have to sacrifice if he wants to play alongside, say, Kevin Love, Marc Gasol, and Rajon Rondo in 2015, or whatever.

      Look at where the apron would be and the cost of adding 50-55 million, and yeah, Melo would have to take a pay cut to build that kind of team.

      Like I said, if you think money is more important than legacy at this point, I don’t think you’ve been paying attention.

    19. thenamestsam

      ruruland:

      Like I said, if you think money is more important than legacy at this point, I don’t think you’ve been paying attention.

      Paying attention to what? Things that he has said in the media?

      The reality is that it’s very hard to present any kind of evidence on this sort of topic because there are so few observations. Melo really hasn’t been faced with any kind of money vs. winning decisions since he signed his last contract. At that time he made decisions that ensured he got his max deal. Since then, any evidence that he has changed his priorities is going to be based on words rather than actions. That doesn’t he hasn’t changed, and like you point there are reasons to think he might make a different decision next time. But it also doesn’t mean that he has changed and the fact that he has enough money to last 100 lifetimes doesn’t necessarily impact that one way or the other.

    20. Vinny L.

      I don’t understand how people can’t understand that Melo generously gave Brooklyn an opportunity being that he’s from BK!

      Especially when you figure that he’s a young guy and Jay-Z (BK) & Beyonce was probably whispering sweet nothings in Melo and La La’s ear’s.

    21. nyk8806

      Melo, faithful servant of Dolan, is of Divine Motivation and singular purpose (to return the Championship to the Unholy Land), and Ruruland (blessed be his name) is His Prophet. Unbelievers doubt at their own peril, as it is written that they shall be forsaken in the coming Rapture.

    22. BigBlueAL

      d-mar:
      Not to deviate from the 100th rehash of the Melo deal, but I saw an interesting stat today that LeBron has driven at Hibbert 18 times and only made 1 shot. So I guess he and Melo have that in common.

      Hibbert really is the great wall on defense, all he has to do is stand there to deter penetrators.

      Just read a tweet referring to this stat:

      LeBron has driven 18 times w/ Hibbert on court this series. 5 pts on 1-for-3 shooting, 11 passes, per ESPN Stats & Info

    23. jon abbey

      ruruland:

      Like I said, if you think money is more important than legacy at this point, I don’t think you’ve been paying attention.

      actions speak louder than alleged intentions, and his previous actions kind of fucked the franchise to line his own pockets. maybe legacy will be more important than money a year or two down the road, but he certainly doesn’t get credit for that now, in advance.

    24. flossy

      ruruland:
      Gasol (expires in ’14) for Chandler, Novak and first pick?

      We don’t have pick to trade and I don’t see why Memphis would ever consider that trade.

    25. lavor postell

      ruruland:
      Gasol (expires in ’14) for Chandler, Novak and first pick?

      I’d make this trade 1000 times out of 1000, but the question is why would Memphis make this deal unless Gasol told them he was definitely leaving next summer. I think we’re best off keeping Chandler for now and seeing if he can man the fuck up and play next season like he did from 2010-12. If he does then we can entertain this scenario further down the road, but as of now I can’t imagine Memphis even entertaining such an offer.

    26. flossy

      flossy: We don’t have pick to trade and I don’t see why Memphis would ever consider that trade.

      Unless you mean Pau, in which case I think both LA and NY would have major reasons to hesitate on that one.

    27. thenamestsam

      ruruland:
      Gasol (expires in ’14) for Chandler, Novak and first pick?

      I actually kind of like this idea for the Knicks because I think Amare and Gasol could be an amazing offensive pairing in the front court given Amare’s newfound post game, but I think you have to figure out a way to get a 3rd team involved probably because I doubt the Lakers don’t have any interest in getting a bunch of salary back for Gasol. If they move him it’s probably going to be for a couple cheap assets to a team with a bunch of space which would save them a fortune in luxury tax payments.

    28. flossy

      But while we’re throwing out crazy trade ideas, how about Chandler and Shumpert for Demarcus Cousins and Marcus Thornton?

      Admit it, you’d consider it.

    29. yellowboy90

      thenamestsam: I actually kind of like this idea for the Knicks because I think Amare and Gasol could be an amazing offensive pairing in the front court given Amare’s newfound post game, but I think you have to figure out a way to get a 3rd team involved probably because I doubt the Lakers don’t have any interest in getting a bunch of salary back for Gasol. If they move him it’s probably going to be for a couple cheap assets to a team with a bunch of space which would save them a fortune in luxury tax payments.

      involve Portland for their 10th pick and 38th pick to LA and Portland gets Ty

    30. ruruland

      flossy: Unless you mean Pau, in which case I think both LA and NY would have major reasons to hesitate on that one.

      Yeah, Memphis isn’t trading Marc. I’m talking Pau.

    31. yellowboy90

      flossy:
      But while we’re throwing out crazy trade ideas, how about Chandler and Shumpert for Demarcus Cousins and Marcus Thornton?

      Admit it, you’d consider it.

      talk about bad defense. can I trade them Tyson and Smith for cousins and Evans. They seem to not like either one

    32. massive

      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/45095/ex-knick-jordan-to-rejoin-team-for-summer

      Some interesting draft tidbits at the end of this article. According to the writer (who I assume has his sources), the Knicks are interested in both Shane Larkin and Dennis Schroeder. I’m 100% positive neither player will be available at #24, but I don’t think the Knicks are willing to trade up in the draft to get their hands on either player. Larkin and Schroeder appear to be versions of Ty Lawson and Rajon Rondo. The Knicks can sorely use a player of that ilk, even if they take a year or two to develop.

      Until he’s on another team, I’m gonna keep hoping I get to see a Schroeder/Shumpert back court for the next 10 seasons.

    33. ruruland

      thenamestsam: I actually kind of like this idea for the Knicks because I think Amare and Gasol could be an amazing offensive pairing in the front court given Amare’s newfound post game, but I think you have to figure out a way to get a 3rd team involved probably because I doubt the Lakers don’t have any interest in getting a bunch of salary back for Gasol. If they move him it’s probably going to be for a couple cheap assets to a team with a bunch of space which would save them a fortune in luxury tax payments.

      You think they would start over?

      I think Gasol could work great with both Amar’e and Melo just as his brother does with Z-Bo. What a fulcrum to the offense he could be.

      I don’t think there’s any question Pau at his best is significantly better than Chandler at his best, but Pau getting back to where he was two years ago is far less likely than Chandler getting back to what he was last season.

      So, it gives the Knicks a one year shot of Gasol having a healthy season.

      Gasol is a better rim protector/defensive rebounder than Chandler and could take the Knicks offense to the next level in the playoffs.

      If it doesn’t work out, Gasol’s deal expires in ’14.

      It means increases your downside risk while improving chance at title run.

      If the apron is at $76 million in 2014, the Knicks would have 41 million in contracts after Gasol expires.

      In 2014, Kobe, Deng, Wall, Granger, George, Dirk, Faried, Larry Sanders all likely to be UFA.

    34. flossy

      massive: Until he’s on another team, I’m gonna keep hoping I get to see a Schroeder/Shumpert back court for the next 10 seasons.

      We’d have to trade up. Dallas is said to be looking to dump salary and is dangling the 13th pick as incentive. I don’t know if the Knicks could make that work, though.

    35. Frank

      Been thinking for a while about how Tyson can improve as an offensive player. Other than the usual learn a midrange jumper and post game stuff, what struck me is how often he DOESN’T try to score when he gets an offensive rebound — especially considering scoring off O-Rebs has to be one of the most efficient ways of scoring. These are actually missed high-efficiency scoring opportunities because all we usually do is reset and run another play. That’s still better than losing the ball of course, but much worse than a high-efficiency shot at the rim with the defense not set.

      So I looked at a couple different sites to get an idea of how to quantify this, and so used Synergy + ESPN to get an idea of how often a player goes back up with an offensive rebound — here’s what I came up with, comparing Tyson to the other prolific O-rebounders:

      Tyson – 269 OReb, 124 FGA off OReb (46% of O-Reb were taken back up)
      Noah – 260 Oreb, 165 FGA off Oreb (63.4%)
      Hibbert – 296 OReb, 235 FGA off Oreb (79%)
      Z-Bo – 310 OReb, 240 FGA off OReb (77%)
      Pekovic – 230 Oreb, 147 FGA off Oreb (64%)
      Faried – 260 Oreb, 172 FGA off Oreb (66%)

      That’s a huge disparity. I’m sure some of the Oreb’s Tyson didn’t take up were the “tyson tip-outs”, but he is leaving A LOT of points unscored by not being aggressive with putting the ball back up. If we want Tyson to increase his usage without losing too much of his efficiency, this would be a perfect way to do it. If he even increased the percentage to 65%, he’d have 50 more FGA, or roughly at 15% increase in FGA just from this.

    36. Frank

      Btw does anyone know how many (if any) of our players have that Grunwald special second year monguarnanteed contract we can use to make lopsided trades like last year? None of the usual sources indicate that we have any players like that, but I kinda don’t remember wether or not that info was available for gadzuric last year.

      Just thinking that if Dallas wants to dump salary, we could give a nonguaranteed salary or 2 plus the 24 pick to get #13 and, say, Vince Carter. Or something like that.

    37. thenamestsam

      Frank,
      Great post. I think his lack of shots on offensive rebounds stems from the more general problem of a lack of offensive feel around the basket. Watching Hibbert more has really reenforced that for me because it’s not like Hibbert exactly has an expansive offensive game. He’s no better from mid-range than Chandler, his post game is obviously superior to Chandlers, but it really isn’t much to write home about (basically just hooks over both shoulders) and while he is taller he’s way less athletic than Tyson. But he is able to really do somethings ofensively just because he knows how to use his size and his body in a way Chandler just doesn’t. Chandler is more effective than just about anybody in the league with a clear path between him and the hoop, but he’s also as easily blunted by anybody in his way as anybody in the league. And I’m not sure there’s a word for most of the stuff he needs to learn to do other than “feel”.

      He needs to take a second and gather himself in the post when a littler guy is on his back and take the little mini-hook (more like a layup). That’s not as much about having a post-game as it is about the understanding of who’s guarding you. He needs to look when his man is out of position on an offensive rebound and use his two steps to dunk the ball rather than immediately looking to throw it out.

      It’s a lot of little things, but the fact that those are the things he still struggles with after 10 years in the league doesn’t give me much hope that he’s going to suddenly get it.

    38. yellowboy90

      Frank:
      Btw does anyone know how many (if any) of our players have that Grunwald special second year monguarnanteed contract we can use to make lopsided trades like last year? None of the usual sources indicate that we have any players like that, but I kinda don’t remember wether or not that info was available for gadzuric last year.

      Just thinking that if Dallas wants to dump salary, we could give a nonguaranteed salary or 2 plus the 24 pick to get #13 and, say, Vince Carter. Or something like that.

      Only White as far as I know. He has a team option 3 days after the draft.

    39. flossy

      Frank:
      Btw does anyone know how many (if any) of our players have that Grunwald special second year monguarnanteed contract we can use to make lopsided trades like last year? None of the usual sources indicate that we have any players like that, but I kinda don’t remember wether or not that info was available for gadzuric last year.

      Just thinking that if Dallas wants to dump salary, we could give a nonguaranteed salary or 2 plus the 24 pick to get #13 and, say, Vince Carter. Or something like that.

      I know we’re not allowed to trade our pick (not in advance of the draft anyway–we can trade the player we select), but I wonder if that rule still applies if we’d be getting another 1st round pick back in the trade?

    40. ruruland

      Frank: Been thinking for a while about how Tyson can improve as an offensive player. Other than the usual learn a midrange jumper and post game stuff, what struck me is how often he DOESN’T try to score when he gets an offensive rebound — especially considering scoring off O-Rebs has to be one of the most efficient ways of scoring. These are actually missed high-efficiency scoring opportunities because all we usually do is reset and run another play. That’s still better than losing the ball of course, but much worse than a high-efficiency shot at the rim with the defense not set.So I looked at a couple different sites to get an idea of how to quantify this, and so used Synergy + ESPN to get an idea of how often a player goes back up with an offensive rebound — here’s what I came up with, comparing Tyson to the other prolific O-rebounders:Tyson – 269 OReb, 124 FGA off OReb (46% of O-Reb were taken back up)Noah – 260 Oreb, 165 FGA off Oreb (63.4%)Hibbert – 296 OReb, 235 FGA off Oreb (79%)Z-Bo – 310 OReb, 240 FGA off OReb (77%)Pekovic – 230 Oreb, 147 FGA off Oreb (64%)Faried – 260 Oreb, 172 FGA off Oreb (66%).

      Great stuff, Frank.

      Though given that Tyson is likely taking majority of uncontested tip-outs, it probably would hurt his efficiency.

      But even if he is only making them at 55 percent with a, say, 40 percent foul rate, that is great.

      But I just don’t see Tyson changing his approach.

    41. Brian Cronin

      Btw does anyone know how many (if any) of our players have that Grunwald special second year monguarnanteed contract we can use to make lopsided trades like last year? None of the usual sources indicate that we have any players like that, but I kinda don’t remember wether or not that info was available for gadzuric last year

      You would think that both of the guys he signed late in the year (Q and Barron) should have them, right? If they don’t, then I don’t know what’s up with that. Perhaps the league told him to quit it? But even if they did, if it is not against the rules, eff them. Keep on doin’ it, Grunny!

    42. Brian Cronin

      I know we’re not allowed to trade our pick (not in advance of the draft anyway–we can trade the player we select), but I wonder if that rule still applies if we’d be getting another 1st round pick back in the trade?

      Yes, that’s allowed. The Knicks just can’t ever be in a position where they don’t have a first round pick in the 2013 Draft. If they get another first rounder for their first rounder, that’s fine.

    43. mr.JayP

      Need more scoring? so another player to chuck 20+ shots a game? LOL no thanks.

      They need a coach that can make adjustments and melo needs to be a tad bit more efficient when it comes to offense.

    44. Owen

      Melo’s mindset is exactly the same as the one that has killed this franchise for the past 12 years. That’s what’s evident.

      Would Memphis do a Melo for Gasol deal? They need scoring right?

      ruruland: You don’t think that was evident?

    45. BigBlueAL

      Considering the cap situation dont see how the Knicks can add a significant player. What they could be able to do is add 2 or 3 solid players which can certainly improve the team.

    46. ruruland

      Owen:
      Melo’s mindset is exactly the same as the one that has killed this franchise for the past 12 years. That’s what’s evident.

      Would Memphis do a Melo for Gasol deal? They need scoring right?

      Uh, I mean, wow guys. Is that a straw-man or what?

      Many people are taking this as a swipe on junior, and it pretty much is, though, completely fair. He is not a No.2. He really is an off the ball No.4.

      Does Melo need to have better confidants who modify “scorer” with efficient, or can one reasonably conclude, should these rumors be correct, that he is not talking about adding another JR Smith?

      Yes, the Knicks need another player, perhaps it’s Amar’e or the continued growth of Copeland (should the Knicks re-sign, I’m going to interview him in two weeks), or Shumpert, who can create offense, who can score, at reasonably efficient levels.

    47. ruruland

      Find me a team, any team in league history, that finished third or higher in offensive rating with two of its three highest usage players finishing with a TS of .522 and lower.

      Naturally, that doesn’t tell the whole story. Both players have low turnovers, and thee far better stat — points per possession — shows that JR Smith actually had above league average efficiency (1.07 ppp, league average is 106) and while Felton’s ppp is a .99, his penetration sharp angles in pnr, Kobe assists are critical to the 4-out offense.

      But again, Owen, and mr.Jay, the biggest story of the Knicks postseason can be explained thusly: Defenses hugged on shooters in high 4-out pnr, forcing players — mainly Felton and Prigioni — to beat them.

      The Knicks didn’t go to Melo high pnr until late in games with the exception of game 6.

      So, the most obvious solution to that problem is to acquire either a point guard who can score more efficiently in those situations, or someone else who can help create offense.

      Ideally, that would be Amar’e or Copeland. But you can’t count on the latter being on the roster next year, or the former being healthy.

      With Chandler on the roster, offensively you’re already looking at a sizeable usage deficit that has to be made up in the starting lineup.

      Maybe Shump can do that. I know Amar’e and Copeland can do it. But you cannot rely on JR Smith to be a 27 usage guy creating for himself.

      You have to alleviate some of the pressure on Melo.

    48. ruruland

      Owen:
      Melo’s mindset is exactly the same as the one that has killed this franchise for the past 12 years. That’s what’s evident.

      So, you weren’t a proponent of playing Copeland more, and thought that the Knicks offense was just dandy outside of Melo, is that what you’re telling me?

      Melo’s 38 usage, that was totally unnecessary, right? Kidd, Prigioni, Chandler….. What happened with them in terms of scoring the basketball and attempting shots? Martin? Should have been a bigger option? More shots for JR?

      C’mon Owen, break it down for us.

    49. yellowboy90

      saw this posted on another site

      “20. Amare Stoudemire
      I’d like to introduce a fake character called “Generic NBA Guy Who Knows Things,” a distorted compilation of everyone in NBA circles who talks to me off the record. Here’s GNGWNT on Amare these past four months:

      October: “Amare is gonna have a big year. Huge, huge year. He likes the spotlight. New York will be good for him. He’s dumb enough to think he’s as big a star as LeBron or Wade. You need that attitude to succeed in New York.”

      November: “I told you!”

      December: “D’Antoni is running Amare into the ground. His knees won’t hold up. You don’t write about coaches putting themselves above their players nearly enough, Simmons. D’Antoni is coaching for his next job; he doesn’t care about Amare’s availability in 2014. Did you see the Detroit game? Amare played 54 minutes in double-OT, then averaged 41 the next 10 games. And when his knees go, everyone will blame Dolan and Donnie for spending too much money on him.”

      January: “You see Amare’s numbers this month? D’Antoni finally cut his minutes but it was too late — his game went in the tank; 45 percent shooting? He hasn’t been under 50 percent for an entire month since he was in junior high.

      February: “I feel bad for Carmelo. He killed his legacy in Denver to get to the Knicks, and by the time he gets there, Amare will be cheering him on in $5,000 suits every night while D’Antoni is working for you guys on Friday nights arguing with Jon Barry. Mark my words, the MVP of the 2013 Knicks is going to be either Mozgov or Amare’s tailor.”

      (And that concludes this week’s episode of “Turd In The Knicks Fan Punch Bowl!” Don’t blame me, blame Mike D’Antoni — the guy who apparently forgot that Stoudemire’s knees are so bad that the Knicks couldn’t get his contract insured, then played him 576 minutes in 14 games over a four-week span. He hasn’t been quite the same since. It’s true.)”

      http://sports.espn.go

    50. Owen

      The story for the last 12 years has been that we don’t have enough scoring. Melo is just another chapter in that saga. And I happen to be sick of that saga.

      Copeland stinks. Honestly, why anyone cares about him is a mystery to me. Totally replaceable. While we picked up Copeland the Rockets picked up Carlos Delfino.

      Melo is basically a better version of Copeland. Neither of them play defense. Neither of them pass. Both of them need to play out of position to be effective on offense.

      Melo adds a max contract and the tendency to blame everyone else for his own shortcomings. He also is now officially in his decline phase.

      This team isn’t going anywhere while Melo is on it. He isn’t a star and he isn’t improving from here. If we can trade him we should. But i know it won’t happen. Which is going to make being a Knicks fan very difficult.

      ruruland: So, you weren’t a proponent of playing Copeland more, and thought that the Knicks offense was just dandy outside of Melo, is that what you’re telling me?

      Melo’s 38 usage, that was totally unnecessary, right? Kidd, Prigioni, Chandler….. What happened with them in terms of scoring the basketball and attempting shots? Martin? Should have been a bigger option? More shots for JR?

      C’mon Owen, break it down for us.

    51. ruruland

      Owen:

      This team isn’t going anywhere while Melo is on it.

      Copeland stinks and the Knicks went nowhere. Ok.

      You’re telling me you spent money on a playoff ticket? I don’t believe you for a second.

    52. ruruland

      I just wish you (Owen) and Jowles presented more of a challenge, had interesting things to say, compelling arguments etc.

    53. massive

      Saying Melo doesn’t play defense screams bias. Melo is actually a really good post defender on a consistent basis.

    54. Glew

      I am fairly convinced that folks that do not see value in Carmelo strictly just check box scores and don’t actually watch games or listen to interviews

    55. maxwell_3g

      Frank:
      Btw does anyone know how many (if any) of our players have that Grunwald special second year monguarnanteed contract we can use to make lopsided trades like last year? None of the usual sources indicate that we have any players like that, but I kinda don’t remember wether or not that info was available for gadzuric last year.

      Just thinking that if Dallas wants to dump salary, we could give a nonguaranteed salary or 2 plus the 24 pick to get #13 and, say, Vince Carter. Or something like that.

      if dallas doesn’t have the cap room this year to absorb the draft pick and d-howard, why wouldn’t they, instead of giving the pick away for trash, just trade it for a top 5 protected pick in next year’s draft?

    56. ruruland

      Glew:
      I am fairly convinced that folks that do not see value in Carmelo strictly just check box scores and don’t actually watch games or listen to interviews

      Right, they are bizzarro world alternate of the fan who only likes ppg.

      Owen claims to be a WS guy. Melo posted a .184 WS/48, which ranked 14th in the league.

      That sucks.

    57. yellowboy90

      maxwell_3g: if dallas doesn’t have the cap room this year to absorb the draft pick and d-howard, why wouldn’t they, instead of giving the pick away for trash, just trade it for a top 5 protected pick in next year’s draft?

      That’s what I’ve been thinking the only other thing I can think of is that teams are not giving up there draft picks for next year. I doubt that though.

    58. maxwell_3g

      all I can add is that I am glad that some of you guys are not our GM!!! why would anyone consider trading chandler and shump for cousins and thornton?? if you check boxscores, cousins is decent. check his shooting %! check his blocks per game! most imoortantly, check his team’s record. and that is who you would want to trade chandler and shump for? and you would of course want to pay cousins big $? cmon guys, a little common sense please.

      and I haven’t even addressed the prospect of trading for pau gasol….(im assuming you guys were talking about pau because Memphis aint trading hometown boy marc)

    59. DRed

      ruruland: Right, they are bizzarro world alternate of the fan who only likes ppg.

      Owen claims to be a WS guy. Melo posted a .184 WS/48, which ranked 14th in the league.

      That sucks.

      Tyson Chandler posted a .207 WS/48, which ranked 4th in the NBA, and you want to trade him, Steve Novak (.116 WS/48) and our first round pick for Pau Gasol and his .107 WS/48 because he’ll pair well with the guy who had two knee surgeries and played 29 games last year. WOW. You know what else sucks? That trade.

    60. ruruland

      DRed: Tyson Chandler posted a .207 WS/48, which ranked 4th in the NBA, and you want to trade him, Steve Novak (.116 WS/48) and our first round pick for Pau Gasol and his .107 WS/48 because he’ll pair well with the guy who had two knee surgeries and played 29 games last year.WOW.You know what else sucks?That trade.

      Gasol at his best is better than Chandler at his best, true or false?

      Is Gasol two years removed from that? Yes. Is it likely he gets healthy and plays like he did two or three years ago? Probably not.

      Again, I like Chandler, I think he is overrated statistically, as I showed a few threads back.

      But he needs his minutes reduced and he needs to be surrounded by a lot of offense. That works if you’re a rim protector. Chandler is not. Gasol hasn’t been that much better the last two years, but it’s more likely he has one more great year in him offensively than Chandler does of becoming a real factor on offense in the postseason, when teams, you know, make sure they put a body on him around the basket.

      If it were guaranteed that Amar’e could stay healthy, I’d probably stick with Chandler, because Chandler actually complements him well and the two were amazing on the floor last year.

      Gasol does not cover nearly as much ground defensively as Chandler does.

      The high-low stuff would be really intriguing.

      I don’t know, it’s troubling to me how little of an impact Chandler has had the last two post-seasons.

      It also surprised me at how well Kenyon performed in Chandler’s role at both ends of the court, and how well the Knicks played in Tyson’s absence.

    61. DRed

      ruruland: Gasol at his best is better than Chandler at his best, true or false?

      Is Gasol two years removed from that? Yes. Is it likely he gets healthy and plays like he did two or three years ago? Probably not.

      I don’t know if Gasol at his best was better than Tyson at his best. How do we decide who was better? WS/48? That gives a slight edge to prime Gasol. But prime Gasol isn’t walking through that door. It’s definitely troubling that Tyson has had injury problems, but trading him plus other assets for an older guy who also has injury problems is a terrible way to solve that problem.

      And for what it’s worth, Tyson’s WS/48 was significantly better in the playoffs this year than Carmelo’s.

    62. jon abbey

      DRed:

      And for what it’s worth, Tyson’s WS/48 was significantly better in the playoffs this year than Carmelo’s.

      it’s worth nothing.

    63. DRed

      jon abbey: it’s worth nothing.

      Fair enough. Ruru brought the stat up. How do we decide who was more valuable, then? Whatever Jon Abbey says?

    64. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      DRed: Fair enough.Ruru brought the stat up.How do we decide who was more valuable, then?Whatever Jon Abbey says?

      Don’t you know that stats are relevant when they’re relevant and not when they’re not?

      “[Statistic X] says that [volume scorer] is [woefully inefficient and therefore not very good], so it must be wrong.”

    65. DRed

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Don’t you know that stats are relevant when they’re relevant and not when they’re not?

      “[Statistic X] says that [volume scorer] is [woefully inefficient and therefore not very good], so it must be wrong.”

      That’s ridiculous. JR Smith is a good offensive player because he scored .01 points per possession over average, and Tyson Chandler sucks because he lead the league in that far better statistic for the 3rd year in a row. Which kills us offensively. But anyhow, JR isn’t good-he’s more of a classic off the ball 4 scorer, not a number 2 scoring option even though he’s a good scorer especially when you consider spacing and the lack of shot creation by the other Knicks. That’s just common sense. And I haven’t even mentioned how assists are overrated and skewed by the conspiracy of the trilateral scoring commission. What you need to focus on is Kobe assists.

    66. ruruland

      DRed: Fair enough.Ruru brought the stat up.How do we decide who was more valuable, then?Whatever Jon Abbey says?

      Notice that the thing you think you’re doing was what I was doing to Owen. I know you struggle with reading comprehension, as you’ve acknowledged (which was brave), but I was responding to Owen with the WS/48 comment. Thats the metric he values so dearly, to the extent that had Carmelo posted a WS/48 .15 higher, he wouldnt be here.

    67. ruruland

      DRed: That’s ridiculous.JR Smith is a good offensive player because he scored .01 points per possession over average, and Tyson Chandler sucks because he lead the league in that far better statistic for the 3rd year in a row.Which kills us offensively.But anyhow, JR isn’t good-he’s more of a classic off the ball 4 scorer, not a number 2 scoring option even though he’s a good scorer especially when you consider spacing and the lack of shot creation by the other Knicks. That’s just common sense.And I haven’t even mentioned how assists are overrated and skewed by the conspiracy of the trilateral scoring commission.What you need to focus on is Kobe assists.

      I laughed.

    68. flossy

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Don’t you know that stats are relevant when they’re relevant and not when they’re not?

      “[Statistic X] says that [volume scorer] is [woefully inefficient and therefore not very good], so it must be wrong.”

      Is that the corollary to “[The One True Metric] says that [irrelevant benchwarmer] is [practically the MVP on a per-minute basis], so everybody look the other way?”

    69. Nick C.

      Ah the off-season brings on months of:
      1) The never ending battle between those who rage against volume scorers in favor of efficient ones irrespective of usage v. the tile the floor and make it easier for those cherry picking, shot passer upper stat padding teammates battle continues unabated.

      2) The never ending trade possibilities.

      What bothers me is who on this team besides Shumpert has any upside or room to improve? Copeland??? If so to what? Amare from being zero I guess but can he be counted on for three weeks in a row?
      At one point this team was considered very dynamic offensively than in the playoffs. Pfft. Ruru uses the phrase “guard the shooters and make Prigs or Felton beat you.” If that’s all it really f’in takes then they better go back to the drawing board, invent some plays or stop standing around like stumps or dribblebationing away the shot clock (yes I mean you JR).

    70. DRed

      ruruland: Notice that the thing you think you’re doing was what I was doing to Owen.I know you struggle with reading comprehension, as you’ve acknowledged (which was brave), but I was responding to Owen with the WS/48 comment. Thats the metric he values so dearly, to the extent that had Carmelo posted a WS/48 .15 higher, he wouldnt be here.

      I obviously can’t speak for Owen, but I believe you’re confusing WP/48 with WS/48.

    71. jon abbey

      DRed: Fair enough.Ruru brought the stat up.How do we decide who was more valuable, then?Whatever Jon Abbey says?

      well, it wasn’t the guy who got abused in his matchup head to head two series in a row.

    72. ruruland

      DRed: I obviously can’t speak for Owen, but I believe you’re confusing WP/48 with WS/48.

      No. The threshold Owen referenced was based on WS/48.

      That’s the baseline for our number based arguments.

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