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Friday, July 25, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, May 23 2012)

  • [New York Post] Knicks take look at Scoop Jardine (Wed, 23 May 2012 01:07:23 -0500)
    Here’s the scoop: Selecting at No. 45 in next month’s NBA Draft, the Knicks aren’t going to find a point guard on par with Jeremy Lin. But the Knicks are sure going to see if 6-foot-2 Syracuse point guard Scoop Jardine can give them depth at a…

  • [New York Times] Heat 115, Pacers 83: Heat Beats Pacers to Take Series Lead (Wed, 23 May 2012 06:00:18 GMT)
    Behind suffocating defense, superb play from their two stars and contributions from their supporting cast, the Heat pulled away from the Pacers as the first half closed and routed them after intermission.

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: N.B.A. Playoffs: In the West, a Full Eclipse (Wed, 23 May 2012 06:00:08 GMT)
    The Lakers are left to pick up the pieces after they were eliminated from the N.B.A. playoffs by Oklahoma City.

  • [New York Times] Golden State Warriors Return to San Francisco (Wed, 23 May 2012 07:09:07 GMT)
    The Golden State Warriors intend to leave Oakland in 2017 for a new arena on the San Francisco waterfront that the team’s owners say they would finance privately.

  • [New York Times] Barclays Center Traffic Plan Cuts Parking Spots (Wed, 23 May 2012 04:30:08 GMT)
    A plan to control traffic around the new Barclays Center in Brooklyn involves fewer parking spots and encouraging fans to take mass transit.

  • [New York Times] James and Wade Lead Heat Past Pacers, 115-83 (Wed, 23 May 2012 08:28:28 GMT)
    Dwyane Wade was bleeding after taking a smack in the head from Tyler Hansbrough, who became the target of a retaliatory shot from Udonis Haslem a few moments later.

  • [New York Times] Heat and Pacers Physical Battle Turns Nasty (Wed, 23 May 2012 05:28:46 GMT)
    There has been a nasty edge to the playoff series between the Miami Heat and the Indiana Pacers and after more blood in Tuesday’s latest encounter, the Heat’s Dwyane Wade said the physical clashes were getting close to crossing the line.

  • [New York Times] James and Wade on Fire as Heat Scorch Pacers (Wed, 23 May 2012 04:25:32 GMT)
    With LeBron James and Dwyane Wade on fire, the Miami Heat pounded the Indiana Pacers 115-83 on Tuesday to take a 3-2 lead in their NBA Eastern Conference playoff semi-final.

  • [New York Times] James and Wade on Fire as Heat Crush Pacers (Wed, 23 May 2012 03:25:54 GMT)
    With LeBron James and Dwyane Wade on fire, the Miami Heat pounded the Indiana Pacers 115-83 on Tuesday to take a 3-2 lead in their Eastern Conference playoff semi-final.

  • [New York Times] James, Wade Lead Heat to 115-83 Win Over Pacers (Wed, 23 May 2012 04:22:38 GMT)
    Suddenly, the road back to the Eastern Conference finals no longer looks daunting for Miami.

  • [New York Times] Granger Out of Pacers-Heat Game With Ankle Injury (Wed, 23 May 2012 02:07:30 GMT)
    Indiana forward Danny Granger left the Pacers’ Eastern Conference semifinal game against the Miami Heat on Tuesday night early in the second half with a sprained left ankle.

  • [New York Times] Police Arrest Man in Shooting Outside Oklahoma NBA Game (Wed, 23 May 2012 01:37:40 GMT)
    Police on Tuesday arrested a 19-year-old man suspected of opening fire the night before outside an Oklahoma City arena in a shooting that wounded eight people after a National Basketball Association playoff game.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Freaky Friday, N.B.A. Style: When the Clippers Were the Celtics (Wed, 23 May 2012 06:02:14 GMT)
    The Los Angeles Clippers are the successor team to the Boston Celtics. The Celtics? They are a successor to the Buffalo Braves. It’s easy — if you follow the fine print.

  • 98 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, May 23 2012)

    1. Kevin McElroy

      Frigging Scoop Jardine after we finally get rid of Rautins? I’ve accepted ‘Melo as a necessary evil but do we have to go through every loathsome Syracuse player until my head explodes? Is Gerry McNamara available? Would the Suns trade Hakim Warrick? Maybe we could bail Eric Devendorf out of jail long enough for a 10-day contract?

    2. TelegraphedPass

      Kevin McElroy: Frigging Scoop Jardine after we finally get rid of Rautins? I’ve accepted ‘Melo as a necessary evil but do we have to go through every loathsome Syracuse player until my head explodes? Is Gerry McNamara available? Would the Suns trade Hakim Warrick? Maybe we could bail Eric Devendorf out of jail long enough for a 10-day contract?

      Do you not like ‘Cuse or something?

    3. Count de Pennies

      On the day coach Stan Van Gandy and general manager Otis Smith lost their jobs with the Magic, a source who has spoken with Howard recently said the All-Star center desperately wants to be traded prior to the start of next season.

      And although the Brooklyn Nets are still considered the frontrunner, “it is not going to be a one-horse race,” the source said, listing the Mavericks, Knicks and — to a lesser degree — the Clippers and Lakers as among the destinations that would appeal to Howard.

      http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/19127344

    4. Owen

      It constantly amazes me how players can leverage being at a good program, having a hot NCAA run, or playing next to a great player into a stint in the NBA.

      Would Corey Brewer still be in the NBA if he hadn’t played next to Horford and Noah in college? Would he even have been drafted?

      How many of the guys on Kentucky this year, many of whom will go in the first round, would have been drafted at all if Anthony Davis had decided to go to North Carolina?

      I would say two at the most.

      Unless of course they perform really well in one on one or three on three drills, which apparently is the preferred method for evaluating players pre draft.

      Which is crazy if you think about it. Let’s evaluate a guy not on a full range of basketball skills but on whether he can beat a guy off the dribble with no one else on the court.

      Don’t get me started….

      Kevin McElroy:
      Frigging Scoop Jardine after we finally get rid of Rautins?I’ve accepted ‘Melo as a necessary evil but do we have to go through every loathsome Syracuse player until my head explodes?Is Gerry McNamara available?Would the Suns trade Hakim Warrick?Maybe we could bail Eric Devendorf out of jail long enough for a 10-day contract?

    5. TelegraphedPass

      I really want NY top draft Marcus Denmon with that pick, but I feel like his skillset won’t shine in pre-draft workouts and he may be overlooked. He was such an efficient wing scorer in college and I feel like he’ll be more productive than Scoop. Not sure what Scoop brings to the table, apart from being alive and a PG.

    6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      TelegraphedPass:
      I really want NY top draft Marcus Denmon with that pick, but I feel like his skillset won’t shine in pre-draft workouts and he may be overlooked. He was such an efficient wing scorer in college and I feel like he’ll be more productive than Scoop. Not sure what Scoop brings to the table, apart from being alive and a PG.

      Don’t worry. The Spurs will take Denmon, and you’ll get to see him play very often, from the First Round all the way through the Finals.

    7. PC

      You must not have watched Kentucky play this year. Their sixth man would have been the best player on an overwhelming majority of top NCAA programs.

      Owen: It constantly amazes me how players can leverage being at a good program, having a hot NCAA run, or playing next to a great player into a stint in the NBA. Would Corey Brewer still be in the NBA if he hadn’t played next to Horford and Noah in college? Would he even have been drafted? How many of the guys on Kentucky this year, many of whom will go in the first round, would have been drafted at all if Anthony Davis had decided to go to North Carolina? I would say two at the most. Unless of course they perform really well in one on one or three on three drills, which apparently is the preferred method for evaluating players pre draft. Which is crazy if you think about it. Let’s evaluate a guy not on a full range of basketball skills but on whether he can beat a guy off the dribble with no one else on the court.Don’t get me started….

    8. Frank

      Count de Pennies:
      On the day coach Stan Van Gandy and general manager Otis Smith lost their jobs with the Magic, a source who has spoken with Howard recently said the All-Star center desperately wants to be traded prior to the start of next season.

      And although the Brooklyn Nets are still considered the frontrunner, “it is not going to be a one-horse race,” the source said, listing the Mavericks, Knicks and — to a lesser degree — the Clippers and Lakers as among the destinations that would appeal to Howard.

      http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/19127344

      Blah. My guess is that it’ll take either Melo or Chandler + Shump to get that deal done, or it’ll take Melo + Chandler for DH12 + some crappy contract. One way or the other TC would probably have to get traded because it makes no sense for TC and Howard to be on the same team.

      TC’s my favorite big-man Knick in a long time (and Shump + Lin are my favorite guards in a long time) – I really hope he doesn’t get traded. Obviously if DH12 really wants to come here, Grunwald would have to do his due diligence on that.

    9. johnlocke

      Melo’s not getting traded. It’ll be Chandler and Amare for Howard and Turkoglu…or perhaps Chandler, Amare and Fields for Howard and Turkoglu.
      Starting line-up: Lin, Shump, Turkoglu, Melo, Howard

      Frank: Blah. My guess is that it’ll take either Melo or Chandler + Shump to get that deal done, or it’ll take Melo + Chandler for DH12 + some crappy contract. One way or the other TC would probably have to get traded because it makes no sense for TC and Howard to be on the same team.

      TC’s my favorite big-man Knick in a long time (and Shump + Lin are my favorite guards in a long time) – I really hope he doesn’t get traded. Obviously if DH12 really wants to come here, Grunwald would have to do his due diligence on that.

    10. JK47

      I’m a Cuse grad and I follow that program closely, so believe me when I tell you that Scoop Jardine sucks. And I’m enough of a homer that I thought Andy Rautins might make it in the NBA.

    11. ruruland

      http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=4515

      No hope for the Knicks offense guys: Tyson Chandler and Amar’e were both top 5 in PPP as screeners.

      Owen: Carmelo Anthony was the 5th most effective PnR ballhandler in the NBA (ahead of Lebron James and Steve Nash)

      Despite a horrible year, Carmelo was still a better isolation player than Paul Pierce, Wade, Williams.

      http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=4515

      Wait, so how do the Knicks move more in the direction of cuts (where Melo has excelled in the past) post-ups (where Melo was once again outstanding) and more pick and roll?

      Oh yeah, a point guard for the whole year.

      These easiest players to get in the NBA are spot-up shooters. Despite Novak leading the NBA in that category, that was far and away the biggest weakness behind lack of point guard.

      Said point guard not only increases the percentage of pick and roll plays, puts guys like Novak, Smith and Melo into more prefferable spot-up opportunities, but can also make teams pay in Melo isolations (where he normally is closer to 1ppp)

    12. ruruland

      Knicks: http://www.hickory-high.com/?attachment_id=4420

      In case you missed it, Melo was also 12th in the league in PPP post-ups (.94)

      A big reason why he was efficient with Andre Miller was his ability to get him the ball when he had deep position.

      Melo was more efficient in the post than Marc Gasol, Dwight Howard, Andre Bynum, Roy Hibbert, Kobe Bryant, Chris Bosh etc. al.

      Surely it’s impossible to leverage these abilities and utilize the full synergistic possibilities of a more balanced roster.

      Quite obviously THCJ, as he said yesterday, could be a good NBA coach because NBA coaches don’t do anything or have any impact on the game. The difference between MDA’s 4-out offense and the triangle or flex are merely aesthetic. Each of them genrates the same kinds of shots and can be utilized to their full potential by every single NBA player.

    13. ruruland

      besides being a horrible spot-up shooting team, there’s this:

      *Among the five least effective plays in the entire league this year: Baron Davis (0.54 PPP) or Iman Shumpert (0.55 PPP) trying to score out of the pick-and-roll. Recall that one of those two individuals was New York’s starting point guard in about a third of the games played this season (and Baron started four of five playoff games).

      It should be noted that Tony Douglas was the starting point guard in another third of the games, and was not just one of the worst spot-up shooters in the NBA, but also one of the worst pick and roll players in the game.

      So, even going to Jeremey Lin (who was slightly above average in both categories) is a monumental upgrade.

      You get average to slightly above average pg play and some average to slightly above average spot-up shooters and the offense is significantly better — Chandler/Amar’e pick and roll plus the versatility of Melo is a great core to build around.

    14. Frank

      ruruland: These easiest players to get in the NBA are spot-up shooters. Despite Novak leading the NBA in that category, that was far and away the biggest weakness behind lack of point guard.

      Yeah that was a great article. A name from the shooter list: how about Anthony Parker as another possible minimum salary type shooter? Shot 41.6% from 3 as a spot up guy, and can probably still defend. He’s 36 but we’d only be asking him probably to play 10-15 min/game.

    15. TelegraphedPass

      ruruland: http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=4515Said point guard not only increases the percentage of pick and roll plays, puts guys like Novak, Smith and Melo into more preferable spot-up opportunities, but can also make teams pay in Melo isolations (where he normally is closer to 1ppp)

      Not that I deny it, but that last number sounds really high. Do you have Melo’s specific iso PPP numbers for the previous few seasons, ruru?

    16. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass: Not that I deny it, but that last number sounds really high. Do you have Melo’s specific iso PPP numbers for the previous few seasons, ruru?

      I will get them to you in the next couple of weeks unless somone posts them before I can. There was a problem with my Synergy subscription but I know it’s traditionally been in the .9 area. If Frank has the numbers i knew they go back a few years. Please post them if you have a chance Frank. Thanks if you can do that.

      It’s just that he takes so many of those shots… That’s why a versatile, movement and penetration based pg is so important.

      Still a lot of value in Melo isos, but point guard allows for much more balance, and more importantly exploitation of strongside overloads.

    17. johnlocke

      Kirk Hinrich if we can afford him would be a good fit I think.

      Frank: Yeah that was a great article.A name from the shooter list: how about Anthony Parker as another possible minimum salary type shooter?Shot 41.6% from 3 as a spot up guy, and can probably still defend.He’s 36 but we’d only be asking him probably to play 10-15 min/game.

    18. ruruland

      Frank: Yeah that was a great article.A name from the shooter list: how about Anthony Parker as another possible minimum salary type shooter?Shot 41.6% from 3 as a spot up guy, and can probably still defend.He’s 36 but we’d only be asking him probably to play 10-15 min/game.

      Frank: Yeah that was a great article.A name from the shooter list: how about Anthony Parker as another possible minimum salary type shooter?Shot 41.6% from 3 as a spot up guy, and can probably still defend.He’s 36 but we’d only be asking him probably to play 10-15 min/game.

      He’d be great. he can do other things beside just shoot, and he can actually move off his spot and either create a shorter jumper or drive and pass. He was great for Lebron. And,again, speaking of Lebron, basically 1 correlation between his teammates 3pt % and his true shooting efficiency over his career.

      There are quite a few guys like that out there on the cheap that would be huge upgrades over guys like Fields, Douglas and Davis…..

      A pg creates more spot upsfor guys like Smith and Novak (who are great) if you can retain them somehow.

    19. Frank

      As requested- Melo’s #s in the most commonly used play-types:

      Carmelo 2011-12 NYK
      - Overall 0.92 PPP (163rd)
      - Isolation 0.85 PPP (56th)
      - PNR ballhandler 0.97 PPP (12th)
      - Post-up 0.94 PPP (26th)
      - Spot up 0.91 PPP (185th)

      Carmelo 2010-11 (Denver)
      - Overall 0.96 PPP (137th)
      - Isolation 0.85 (102)
      - PNR BH 0.75 (117)
      - Post-up 0.94 (50)
      - Spot up 1.23 (19th) – wow, way better than this year

      Carmelo 2010-11 (NYK)
      - Overall 1.02 (56)
      - Isolation 0.97 (28)
      - PNR BH 0.84 (62)
      - Post-up 0.85 (92)
      - Spot-up 1.11 (61)

      Carmelo 2009-10 (DEN)

      - Overall 0.97 (123)
      - Isolation 0.92 (50)
      - PNR BH 0.73 (118)
      - Post-up 0.96 (35)
      - Spot up 1.01 (118)

      Things that stood out here – he looks to be one of the best post-up guys in the league – no surprise. He has been much better here as the PNR ballhandler than he was in Denver. Did he actually learn something from D’Antoni or are the sets just better here?

      And his spot-up shooting was really terrible this year.

    20. Frank

      Wow – according to Alan Hahn’s twitter, Iman Shumpert just barely missed the All-Defense second team. Received 4 first team votes and 5 2nd team votes. Impressive.

    21. ruruland

      I know Melo shot 47% on his isolation shots in April (which is obviously going to be good for more than 1 ppp). Obviously he’s not historically at that level, but he’s not the 29% .8 guy he was most of the year. Like I said, around the .9 area and elite among other volume iso guys (Dirk is traditionally the man in terms of pure scoring efficiency in isos)

    22. Kurt

      Any thoughts on this post:
      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/19701/the-big-three-part-2-offensive-sets

      I think a good way to take care of spacing issues between Amar’e and Chandler would be to have one set an off-ball back screen for the other. Amar’e would go to the foul line while Chandler would roll to the basket. That would give the defender an alternative between an open foul shot for Amar’e and a lob for Chandler.

      Also, on a lot of plays Miami has James and Wade on opposite sides. For example, when LeBron has the ball, Wade is in the baseline corner on the weak side. That way, if Wade’s defender looks towards LeBron or helps off him, Wade cuts to the basket for a dunk.

      If you take a look at a lot of highlight reels of Amar’e from Phoenix, he’s at his best when he’s cutting to the basket off the pick and roll or cutting from the weak side. Aside from last year (coming off back surgery, I’d say Amar’e has a better mid-range jump shot than Wade, so spacing shouldn’t be any worse for him.

      Another possibility is having Amar’e and Melo play give and go from the strong side, and if that doesn’t work, Chandler, on the weak side, could set a vicious screen for the the three pointer from a guard, sort of like this:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DFEnhOEHppA

    23. Kurt

      Sorry to keep on droning, but there’s one question that I’m wondering about regarding Mike Brown: In the games he was coaching before Lin got injured, I noticed a lot of beautiful ball movement and a really fast pace. It seemed like a better executed version of the D’Antoni offense with more actual plays being called. After Lin got injured, it got focused on isolating Melo. On one hand, you could say that the switch was because Brown hadn’t installed his “system” yet, but it could also be because there wasn’t a good point guard anymore.

      The same could be argued regarding the Atlanta teams: while obviously Brown emphasized rebounding and reducing turnovers over ball movement, I think the ugly iso-Joe offense could have also been from lack of a play making point guard (cue for Jim Cavan to make a dying Mike Bibby joke).

      I’m just hoping that the second possibility is correct.

    24. TelegraphedPass

      Kurt: Sorry to keep on droning, but there’s one question that I’m wondering about regarding Mike Brown:

      *Mike Woodson

    25. ruruland

      Frank:
      As requested- Melo’s #s in the most commonly used play-types:

      Carmelo 2011-12 NYK
      - Overall 0.92 PPP (163rd)
      - Isolation 0.85 PPP (56th)
      - PNR ballhandler 0.97 PPP (12th)
      - Post-up 0.94 PPP (26th)
      - Spot up 0.91 PPP (185th)

      Carmelo 2010-11 (Denver)
      - Overall 0.96 PPP (137th)
      - Isolation 0.85 (102)
      - PNR BH 0.75 (117)
      - Post-up 0.94 (50)
      - Spot up 1.23 (19th) – wow, way better than this year

      Carmelo 2010-11 (NYK)
      - Overall 1.02 (56)
      - Isolation 0.97 (28)
      - PNR BH 0.84 (62)
      - Post-up 0.85 (92)
      - Spot-up 1.11 (61)

      Carmelo 2009-10 (DEN)

      - Overall 0.97 (123)
      - Isolation 0.92 (50)
      - PNR BH 0.73 (118)
      - Post-up 0.96 (35)
      - Spot up 1.01 (118)

      Things that stood out here – he looks to be one of the best post-up guys in the league – no surprise.He has been much better here as the PNR ballhandler than he was in Denver. Did he actually learn something from D’Antoni or are the sets just better here?

      And his spot-up shooting was really terrible this year.

      Finishers are much better. Nene was solid but Kenyon Martin and Chris Andersen were quite average.

    26. ruruland

      Frank:
      As requested- Melo’s #s in the most commonly used play-types:

      Carmelo 2011-12 NYK
      - Overall 0.92 PPP (163rd)
      - Isolation 0.85 PPP (56th)
      - PNR ballhandler 0.97 PPP (12th)
      - Post-up 0.94 PPP (26th)
      - Spot up 0.91 PPP (185th)

      Carmelo 2010-11 (Denver)
      - Overall 0.96 PPP (137th)
      - Isolation 0.85 (102)
      - PNR BH 0.75 (117)
      - Post-up 0.94 (50)
      - Spot up 1.23 (19th) – wow, way better than this year

      Carmelo 2010-11 (NYK)
      - Overall 1.02 (56)
      - Isolation 0.97 (28)
      - PNR BH 0.84 (62)
      - Post-up 0.85 (92)
      - Spot-up 1.11 (61)

      Carmelo 2009-10 (DEN)

      - Overall 0.97 (123)
      - Isolation 0.92 (50)
      - PNR BH 0.73 (118)
      - Post-up 0.96 (35)
      - Spot up 1.01 (118)

      Things that stood out here – he looks to be one of the best post-up guys in the league – no surprise.He has been much better here as the PNR ballhandler than he was in Denver. Did he actually learn something from D’Antoni or are the sets just better here?

      And his spot-up shooting was really terrible this year.

      His spot-up shooting was very bad this year. Historically he’s been average to good, but you can see how much more efficient a spot-up shot is than an isolation shot.

      That’s why you don’t compare guys like Danilo Gallinari and spot-up guys with volume shot-creators.

      When you can redistribute 1/3 to 1/2 of Melo’s shots back towards spot-ups, pick and roll drives and post-ups because of floor balance and point guard play– his effeciency will sky-rocket and his isolation efficiency will improve.

      It’s no coincidence that he’s had his best isolation years when there was floor spacing — it’s symbiotic.

    27. ruruland

      Kurt:
      Sorry to keep on droning, but there’s one question that I’m wondering about regarding Mike Brown: In the games he was coaching before Lin got injured, I noticed a lot of beautiful ball movement and a really fast pace. It seemed like a better executed version of the D’Antoni offense with more actual plays being called. After Lin got injured, it got focused on isolating Melo. On one hand, you could say that the switch was because Brown hadn’t installed his “system” yet, but it could also be because there wasn’t a good point guard anymore.

      The same could be argued regarding the Atlanta teams: while obviously Brown emphasized rebounding and reducing turnovers over ball movement, I think the ugly iso-Joe offense could have also been from lack of a play making point guard (cue for Jim Cavan to make a dying Mike Bibby joke).

      I’m just hoping that the second possibility is correct.

      There were no pick and roll guards on the Hawks offense. When the Knicks had a pick and roll guard with Woodson they ran a lot of pick and roll — the offense was fantastic and neither Lin nor Melo had it going.

      Woodson sees all of these numbers and much more revealing ones you can be sure of it. Of course the Knicks will run pick and roll next year with Lin or Nash or Lin and Nash.

      It will be a balanced offense when the roster allows it to be.

    28. TelegraphedPass

      Tyson Chandler joins ’95 Dikembe Mutombo and ’86 Alvin Robertson in being the only guys to win DPOY and miss All-Defensive First Team in the same year.

    29. TelegraphedPass

      TelegraphedPass: Tyson Chandler joins ’95 Dikembe Mutombo and ’86 Alvin Robertson in being the only guys to win DPOY and miss All-Defensive First Team in the same year.

      Credit to Jared Zwerling.

    30. ruruland

      Kurt:
      Any thoughts on this post:
      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/19701/the-big-three-part-2-offensive-sets

      I think a good way to take care of spacing issues between Amar’e and Chandler would be to have one set an off-ball back screen for the other. Amar’e would go to the foul line while Chandler would roll to the basket. That would give the defender an alternative between an open foul shot for Amar’e and a lob for Chandler.

      Also, on a lot of plays Miami has James and Wade on opposite sides. For example, when LeBron has the ball, Wade is in the baseline corner on the weak side. That way, if Wade’s defender looks towards LeBron or helps off him, Wade cuts to the basket for a dunk.

      If you take a look at a lot of highlight reels of Amar’e from Phoenix, he’s at his best when he’s cutting to the basket off the pick and roll or cutting from the weak side. Aside from last year (coming off back surgery, I’d say Amar’e has a better mid-range jump shot than Wade, so spacing shouldn’t be any worse for him.

      I think Amar’e can be a really good weakside attack player, just as Nene was in Denver.

      but what I want to see is more passing from Chandler on the roll when the help converges on him — that will help get Amar’e going.

      But, really, Amar’e has all the tools to be a great weakside player..

      You can talk about all the systemic issues with the offense with Douglas, Fields (Shump early in the year), Davis etc al, and talk about Melo’s injury issues and so forth, but we also so Amar’e's jump shot percentage absolutely plummet.

      That an anomaly to me and it’s a pretty significant difference maker among quite a few others (potentially) from last year going into next year.

    31. Kurt

      Ruruland: thanks for the stats. I’ve read elsewhere that Melo (up until this year, when he was clearly bothered by that wrist injury) was very efficient as a spot-up shooter.

      I have a question for you since you clearly know him personally: I remember reading somewhere (ESPN NY?) before D’Antoni left that one of the tensions between him and Melo was that D’A wanted Melo to stay at the wing beyond the three-point line to use him as a spot-up shooter and that Melo blanched at that role, breaking off plays to post up at the pinch-post. To what degree is there any truth to this, and to what degree is Melo willing to be used as in a spot up role, at least part of the time?

      I remember when Gallo would get the ball at the wing and drive to the basket on close outs. I don’t have any stats (Synergy, anyone?) to back this up, but I’ve found that Melo has been as good from three point range as Gallo in spot up threes resulting from good ball movement (maybe even better?), and, considering that he’s far more athletic and better ball-handler, he should be able to drive at least as well on close-outs.

    32. johnlocke

      yeh…. his playoff performance against Miami didn’t help him either:

      “The final tally: 18 fouls, 15 turnovers, 11 made baskets and a 10.10 PER from the league’s defensive player of the year.”
      – courtesy of Hollinger

      TelegraphedPass:
      Tyson Chandler joins ’95 Dikembe Mutombo and ’86 Alvin Robertson in being the only guys to win DPOY and miss All-Defensive First Team in the same year.

    33. TelegraphedPass

      Kurt: I don’t have any stats (Synergy, anyone?) to back this up, but I’ve found that Melo has been as good from three point range as Gallo in spot up threes resulting from good ball movement (maybe even better?), and, considering that he’s far more athletic and better ball-handler, he should be able to drive at least as well on close-outs.

      Melo this year on spot up threes: 33.3%

      Gallo this year on the same shot: 33.9

    34. ruruland

      Kurt:
      First, I think the idea that Melo was breaking plays all the time was quite exaggerated.

      Let’s remember when he first came back from injury (after the point-forward trial where he was much better than his numbers, the spot up-shooting problems forced him into more contested and congested shot attempts).

      Melo was very much trying to fit into the offense and take shots that were available. Recall the kinds of shots Melo got in the Boston game when things were clicking. The looks he got against Atlanta and Cleveland…..

      These were the exact kind of plays you’re referring to— spot-ups (he was missing far more often than usual), drives against close-outs for layups and dunks, good looks as a roller in the 1/3 with Lin, weakside cuts to the basket and early-post-ups in transition.

      Now, it was a work in progress for Lin to get comfortable making those passes and seeing Melo and teammates streaking open to the basket — but those are the kind of plays Melo has historically been proficient with. I and other posters talked about how promising that was at the time.

      The long stretches of 70-90 games of 570-580 TS came before Melo developed his 3pt shot — when he was getting 50-60 percent of makes assisted on those kinds of looks.

      That’s why I’ve (and other prominent NBA people) talked about him being one of if not the most versatile scorers in the NBA — and very good off the ball– that’s in part what he was known for in Denver. When the roster dynamics changed he became much more iso-centric.

      Now, when the losses started to pile up and Melo could not impact the game you started to see him tune out MDA, break the offense and demand the ball in the post.

      Melo was just trying to win. So was MDA. IMO, there was just not enough give and flexibility on MDA’s part. Melo deserves criticism for not impacting the game on defense and being a leader in that regard– no excuse for that.

    35. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass: Melo this year on spot up threes: 33.3%

      Gallo this year on the same shot: 33.9

      Melo was better last year, too. And he’s better beating wrong-footed defenders on the close-out. Now if he’d only emasculate himself and flop like Gallo ;)

    36. ruruland

      but, like most things, the Melo-MDA rift was exaggerated from what I understand. MDA saw the writing on the wall and he was not willing to fundamentally change his approach without knowing he’d keep his job.

      Melo was never a big fan of MDA to begin with (he has more respect for defense-minded coaches) nor was MDA of him– and Melo knew that going in.

      But they respect one another and I think they’ll be fine this summer.

    37. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland:
      but, like most things, the Melo-MDA rift was exaggerated from what I understand. MDA saw the writing on the wall and he was not willing to fundamentally change his approach without knowing he’d keep his job.

      Melo was never a big fan of MDA to begin with (he has more respect for defense-minded coaches) nor was MDA of him– and Melo knew that going in.

      But they respect one another and I think they’ll be fine this summer.

      Your presumed knowledge of Carmelo Anthony’s psychology borders on the obsessive.

    38. ruruland

      here is a good video from the 2007 playoff series against the Spurs.

      http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zose_manchild-nba-2007-playoffs-rd1-g3-s_sport

      Melo had a TS of .580 in the series going up against the likes of Bruce Bowen and Mike Finley.

      The Spurs also fronted Melo, the difference is that the Nuggets had the threat of penetration and floor spacing.

      If you watch this video and the game 2 video on the right (Melo’s worst game of the series) you’ll notice the different kinds of looks Melo got, the frequency of double teams he faced (a ton of them) and how much Marcus Camby hurt that offense.

    39. Owen

      Ruruland – I know you want to sugarcoat Melo’s play this year by saying he was good in the pnr, but seriously, who cares? He sucked on offense for a guy who is supposed to be a top 5 offensive force. He has to be a lot better next year or Knicks fans are going to make it really uncomfortable for him.

      Luckily, for him and for us, he is capable of playing better. But until he does he will be on the hot seat for a pretty putrid performance this year. This is the guy we threw away our future for. And that doesn’t look like a very smart move right now.

      Also, again, to say he needs a good point guard to be successful is a gigantic cop out. This is a guy who is getting paid 20 million dollars a year to be successful on offense no matter who you put him out there with. That’s his role. And he simply didn’t deliver.

      Tell him when you talk to him that I will buy 100 dollars worth of his fan gear if he delivers a .200 ws/48. Free money! ;-)

    40. 2FOR18

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Your presumed knowledge of Carmelo Anthony’s psychology borders on the obsessive.

      Come on man, enough with cracking on ruru. Personally, I come to this site for the sole purpose of finding out what Melo’s TS% was in those 3 games of Feb, 2008 when he was surrounded with the optimum compliment of teammates.

    41. ruruland

      Owen:
      Ruruland – I know you want to sugarcoat Melo’s play this year by saying he was good in the pnr, but seriously, who cares? He sucked on offense for a guy who is supposed to be a top 5 offensive force. He has to be a lot better next year or Knicks fans are going to make it really uncomfortable for him.

      Luckily, for him and for us, he is capable of playing better. But until he does he will be on the hot seat for a pretty putrid performance this year. This is the guy we threw away our future for. And that doesn’t look like a very smart move right now.

      Also, again, to say he needs a good point guard to be successful is a gigantic cop out. This is a guy who is getting paid 20 million dollars a year to be successful on offense no matter who you put him out there with. That’s his role. And he simply didn’t deliver.

      Tell him when you talk to him that I will buy 100 dollars worth of his fan gear if he delivers a .200 ws/48. Free money! ;-)

      Knicks fans have already made it quite clear they are not satisfied, that’s not lost on him. I’m not trying to absolve Melo of blame this year. He was pretty awful offensively this year no matter how you slice it, and it’s a bottom-line business.

      But, in attempting to understand causation and context, we need to look at these things to understand what the future could hold.

      The kinds of players around Melo dictate the kinds of shots he gets and what he gets others. Not all players are versatile enough to be used in so many roles, so Melo is more prone to significant efficiency fluctuations than more limited kinds of offensive players.

      The idea is to obviously mix in isolations with more of these other kinds of shots– but the only way to do that is to have proper pieces in place.

      We’re not talking abour great players — we’re simply talking about common skill-sets.

    42. Owen

      You know, I feel for Ruru. The truth is, Melo has had stretches where he looked like an elite player. Maybe not a top 5 guy. But certainly a top 20 guy. I can remember reading a WOW article in 08 or 09 about how Melo had finally broken through and was posting “perfect player” numbers.

      I hope it actually happens for real in a Knicks uniform. But I am skeptic until it does….

      2FOR18: Come on man, enough with cracking on ruru.Personally, I come to this site for the sole purpose of finding out what Melo’s TS% was in those 3 games of Feb, 2008 when he was surrounded with the optimum compliment of teammates.

    43. formido

      Melo had a bad year last year, but context matters, and that’s what a lot of doubters like to gloss over. Sometimes excuses are reasons. But we shall see who among us is right, won’t we? Next year can’t get here soon enough for me.

    44. ess-dog

      I still don’t know how the big three are going to get along on offense. Assuming ruru’s info is correct/important, we need to get Melo the ball in the post, iso situations and pnr’s.

      So actually, that kind of makes D’Antoni’s point-forward idea seem valid, no?

      I think it’ hard to win with position players who have non traditional attributes for their position. This is totally unfounded, but roll with me a sec. An sf that posts up a lot is less valuable than a pf that does. A pf that shoots threes is less valuable than a swingman that shoots threes. By that I mean necessarily, one player is working to another’s disadvantage if that player has a roll not common for their position.

      For instance, if Melo is posting up, that leaves our two, poor jumpshooting bigs necessarily out of the post, creating an uneven spread.

      Yet Rondo, who is a poor shooter, dominates at the primary pg skills – driving and assisting. Skills that are maximized at his position and therefore lower the need for him to be a good shooter.

      It seems like you have to have exceptional players at every position in order to run a good offense with non-traditional players.

    45. johnlocke

      Can you explain the below further? Who are other players in the league that are versatile offensive talents that are subject to significant efficiency fluctuations?

      I think a lot of Melo’s inefficiencies this year are largely on him and the injuries that hampered him earlier in the season. He was clanking jumpers for a large part of the season — shots that in his language “are shots he usually makes, but they just weren’t falling”.

      ruruland: .

      The kinds of players around Melo dictate the kinds of shots he gets and what he gets others. Not all players are versatile enough to be used in so many roles, so Melo is more prone to significant efficiency fluctuations than more limited kinds of offensive players.

    46. Frank

      Owen: Ruruland – I know you want to sugarcoat Melo’s play this year by saying he was good in the pnr, but seriously, who cares? He sucked on offense for a guy who is supposed to be a top 5 offensive force. He has to be a lot better next year or Knicks fans are going to make it really uncomfortable for him.

      lol – it is hard to argue with this. Regardless of crappy PG play, Melo has to be better than he was for 80% of this year (ie. anytime other than april) going forward.

    47. ruruland

      ess-dog:
      I still don’t know how the big three are going to get along on offense.Assuming ruru’s info is correct/important, we need to get Melo the ball in the post, iso situations and pnr’s.

      So actually, that kind of makes D’Antoni’s point-forward idea seem valid, no?

      I think it’ hard to win with position players who have non traditional attributes for their position.This is totally unfounded, but roll with me a sec.An sf that posts up a lot is less valuable than a pf that does.A pf that shoots threes is less valuable than a swingman that shoots threes.By that I mean necessarily, one player is working to another’s disadvantage if that player has a roll not common for their position.

      For instance, if Melo is posting up, that leaves our two, poor jumpshooting bigs necessarily out of the post, creating an uneven spread.

      Yet Rondo, who is a poor shooter, dominates at the primary pg skills – driving and assisting.Skills that are maximized at his position and therefore lower the need for him to be a good shooter.

      It seems like you have to have exceptional players at every position in order to run a good offense with non-traditional players.

      Right, it’s more difficult to find a pf that can spread the floor than a traditional wing (though that is slowly changing).

      I think what you’ll find, however, is that you always need exceptional players to run a good offense with traditional players.

      Say what you want about the Suns, but Gortat and Amar’e are both pretty unconventional bigs with their ability to move, catch and finish — and the Suns have typically had unconventional power forwards as well

      Every single (good offensive) team in the NBA needs shooting, regardless of how atypical or versatile your highest usage player is.

      We see the problems Paul runs into when he doesn’t have it in the post-season.

    48. 2FOR18

      formido:
      Melo had a bad year last year, but context matters, and that’s what a lot of doubters like to gloss over. Sometimes excuses are reasons. But we shall see who among us is right, won’t we? Next year can’t get here soon enough for me.

      I’m tired of hearing about how melo needs the perfect teammates to put up elite numbers; if this is true, then he’s not an elite player. For fuksakes, Bernard King averaged 32/6/4 on 53% shooting with Rory Sparrow, Louis Orr, Darrell Walker, Trent Tucker and Pat Cummings as his best teammates. And he put those numbers up with Hubie Brown as his coach, the slowest of slow down coaches.

    49. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      Can you explain the below further? Who are other players in the league that are versatile offensive talents that are subject to significant efficiency fluctuations?

      I think a lot of Melo’s inefficiencies this year are largely on him and the injuries that hampered him earlier in the season. He was clanking jumpers for a large part of the season— shots that in his language “are shots he usually makes, but they just weren’t falling”.

      There really aren’t a lot of good Melo comparisons for versatility (and yes, a lot of his struggles were injury related similar to ’08)

      But there aren’t a lot of guys (if any) who’ve gone from 63% assisted baskets to under 40%.

      Kobe Bryant to me is the other super versatile extreme usage player in the NBA. His most efficient shooting seasons came from ’04-’08 (all post-Shaq). I think Dirk is extremely versatile but the distribution of his shot-types is very consistent because he’s been surrounded by very consistent kinds of pieces.

      Now, what did Kobe have have those 5 years (past his physical prime) that he didn’t before?

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

      Well, not coincidentally, he had extremely good passing big men in Lamar Odom and Pau Gaso — both of whom were capable of making jump shots and playing from the outside-in.

      What do we see that’s different in his numbers from previous seasons?

      Higher percentage of assisted baskets inside and a higher percentage of assisted jump shots, and more efficient jump-shooting overal (more space).

      Kobe can take virtually every kind of shot from anywhere on the floor. But his-mid post game was enhanced both by passing big men and better spacing.

    50. ruruland

      2FOR18: I’m tired of hearing about how melo needs the perfect teammates to put up elite numbers; if this is true, then he’s not an elite player.For fuksakes, Bernard King averaged 32/6/4 on 53% shooting with Rory Sparrow, Louis Orr, Darrell Walker, Trent Tucker and Pat Cummings as his best teammates.And he put those numbers up with Hubie Brown as his coach, the slowest of slow down coaches.

      The game is quite a bit different than it was in the early ’80s. bernard King was an incredibly great player in his prime — but he would not perform at that level in this NBA with these kind of athletes.

      Aggregate statistics make it pretty clear how the game has changed.

    51. ruruland

      For example, the ’83 Knicks shot about 50% from the field but were 13 out of 23 teams in offensive efficiency.

      Field goal percentage and overall offensive efficiency was much higher than today — and let’s not sit here and pretend that was because guys could hit mid-range jump shots. No, they were better in that regard, but the league wasn’t filled with athletic shot-contesting freaks nor the lateral quickness wings it is today.

    52. ephus

      ruruland: The game is quite a bit different than it was in the early ’80s. bernard King was an incredibly great player in his prime — but he would not perform at that level in this NBA with these kind of athletes.

      This is not a good argument to make when ‘Melo has self-consciously patterned his game after Bernard’s. There are important differences like ‘Melo takes a lot more 3 pt shots than Bernard ever did. But if you are arguing that the game has progressed to the point where a wing player cannot dominate out of the mid post absent a lot of teammate help, you are basically saying that ‘Melo has to change his game.

    53. ruruland

      And I forget to mention, because guys cover so much more ground today, and its relatively more difficult to score at the basket — spacing becomes far more important.

      Maybe Greg Popovich is a blithering idiot compared to 2for18, but he seems to understand the need for floor spacing and it’s probably the biggest reason his team is likely headed to the Finals despite lacking a top 10 player (maybe you make the case for Parker but I doubt it).

    54. ephus

      ruruland: Field goal percentage and overall offensive efficiency was much higher than today — and let’s not sit here and pretend that was because guys could hit mid-range jump shots. No, they were better in that regard, but the league wasn’t filled with athletic shot-contesting freaks nor the lateral quickness wings it is today.

      But in the world where teams have loaded up the wing positions with Scottie Pippen-wannabes, does it make sense to have the offense feature ‘Melo in isolation? And if ‘Melo needs to catch the ball in the deep post, doesn’t he have to play the 4 or work to make Amar’e a threat at the elbow?

    55. ruruland

      ephus: This is not a good argument to make when ‘Melo has self-consciously patterned his game after Bernard’s.There are important differences like ‘Melo takes a lot more 3 pt shots than Bernard ever did.But if you are arguing that the game has progressed to the point where a wing player cannot dominate out of the mid post absent a lot of teammate help, you are basically saying that ‘Melo has to change his game.

      That’s not my point at all. My point is that spacing matters more than it did then. You don’t have to watch more than ten minutes of games from that era to realize that.

      Bernard was a phenomenal player. It’s jut a different game. NBA has progressed and changed much like the NFL.

    56. ruruland

      ephus: But in the world where teams have loaded up the wing positions with Scottie Pippen-wannabes, does it make sense to have the offense feature ‘Melo in isolation?And if ‘Melo needs to catch the ball in the deep post, doesn’t he have to play the 4 or work to make Amar’e a threat at the elbow?

      You raise good points. I think the Amar’e/Chandler/Lin lineup should feature Melo in the pnr with Lin or Chandler and Amar’e, or off the ball spacing and catching the pnr between Lin and the bigs.

      When Chandler goes out of the game he should be the focal point in isolation/low-post creating attention for a more shot-making oriented lineup.

      We all know we need to cut down on Melo isos, and increase spot-ups, pnrs and deep post-ups.

      With a point guard that can push the ball — Melo can function both as a trailer hitting open 3s or driving, and he can function as the guy getting early post-ups….

      That’s how you’d utilize his versatility.

    57. ephus

      ruruland:
      With a point guard that can push the ball — Melo can function both as a trailer hitting open 3s or driving, and he can function as the guy getting early post-ups….

      That requires ‘Melo to be in shape so that he can fill the lanes without releasing early. I would love to see it.

    58. 2FOR18

      ruruland: The game is quite a bit different than it was in the early ’80s. bernard King was an incredibly great player in his prime — but he would not perform at that level in this NBA with these kind of athletes.

      Aggregate statistics make it pretty clear how the game has changed.

      The point is that Bernard dominated the league with shitty teammates, while according to you, melo needs to be complimented by a specific set of players wither certain skill sets. Which indicates to me that melo is not the elite, best all around scorer in the game that I keep hearing he is.

    59. ruruland

      ruruland: That’s not my point at all. My point is that spacing matters more than it did then. You don’t have to watch more than ten minutes of games from that era to realize that.

      Bernard was a phenomenal player. It’s jut a different game. NBA has progressed and changed much like the NFL.

      I should say that no matter how or where you initiate the offense, if you’re going to be really good you’ll need floor spacing and shooting.

      The Nuggets had a pretty good offense despite relatively poor jump-shooting — but they played small and had a lot of threats from outside.

      The biggest reason they were so great offensively was clearly transition.

      I’d love for someone to post a dominant offensive team in the last 15 years that lacked shooting/floor spacing.

    60. ruruland

      ephus: That requires ‘Melo to be in shape so that he can fill the lanes without releasing early.I would love to see it.

      We started to see Melo run and get early position like the Melo of old during Lin.

    61. TelegraphedPass

      ruruland: You raise good points. I think the Amar’e/Chandler/Lin lineup should feature Melo in the pnr with Lin or Chandler and Amar’e, or off the ball spacing and catching the pnr between Lin and the bigs. When Chandler goes out of the game he should be the focal point in isolation/low-post creating attention for a more shot-making oriented lineup. We all know we need to cut down on Melo isos, and increase spot-ups, pnrs and deep post-ups. With a point guard that can push the ball — Melo can function both as a trailer hitting open 3s or driving, and he can function as the guy getting early post-ups….That’s how you’d utilize his versatility.

      All this puts Melo in the position to post better, more efficient scoring numbers. And that’s awesome.

      My concern is really in developing offensive schemes that not only benefit Carmelo and put him in a position to score effectively, but also maximize the production of Amar’e. Presumably, STAT’s anomalous awful shooting should right itself next season and he can begin to reinvent himself as a midrange face-up threat. Honestly, I feel like that’s the direction he should go in anyways.

      If STAT gets that elbow jumper back, then the spacing would look a whole lot better. No longer could teams comfortably double Melo, knowing he has the footwork and passing ability to hit Amar’e for an open jimmy or lob to a flashing Tyson Chandler. If teams choose to allow Melo to go one-on-one with his defender, then they get punished. Melo is nearly impossible for most guys to handle without help defense.

      It seems like there are a lot of “ifs” involved to make this offense run, but honestly most of them just require our stars to progress back to the norm.

      I’m optimistic about this team moving forward. Already a top defense, and capable of becoming a top 10 offense.

    62. ruruland

      2FOR18: The point is that Bernard dominated the league with shitty teammates, while according to you, melo needs to be complimented by a specific set of players wither certain skill sets.Which indicates to me that melo is not the elite, best all around scorer in the game that I keep hearing he is.

      These skills sets are extraordinarily common, actually. It just so happens that Melo has played on a lot of teams that lacked them.

      Pre-KG, Pierce had very efficient seasons, but he also had floor spacing and shooting (Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak, Lafrentz, Rodeny Rodgers, Mark Blount — big man who could shoot,)

      Equally important, however, is that you don’t see Pierce’s numbers take off until the team drafts Al jefferson.

      Who is Al Jefferson? An offensive focal point who creates double teams and open-shot and drive opportunities.

      Also, the early Pierce years were most succesfull when Antoine Walker was playing well..

    63. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass: All this puts Melo in the position to post better, more efficient scoring numbers. And that’s awesome.

      My concern is really in developing offensive schemes that not only benefit Carmelo and put him in a position to score effectively, but also maximize the production of Amar’e. Presumably, STAT’s anomalous awful shooting should right itself next season and he can begin to reinvent himself as a midrange face-up threat. Honestly, I feel like that’s the direction he should go in anyways.

      If STAT gets that elbow jumper back, then the spacing would look a whole lot better. No longer could teams comfortably double Melo, knowing he has the footwork and passing ability to hit Amar’e for an open jimmy or lob to a flashing Tyson Chandler. If teams choose to allow Melo to go one-on-one with his defender, then they get punished. Melo is nearly impossible for most guys to handle without help defense.

      It seems like there are a lot of “ifs” involved to make this offense run, but honestly most of them just require our stars to progress back to the norm.

      I’m optimistic about this team moving forward. Already a top defense, and capable of becoming a top 10 offense.

      I think everything is place for Amar’e to be a +600TS just as he was in the final 24 games of the year when he came back from Florida.

      But the key will be, obviously, Lin or Nash and a shooting guard that can actually shoot.

      Those two things will open up strongside pick and rolls and weakside attacks or mid-range shots for Amar’e.

      Maybe you start throwing Chandler a few bones on the block, but I don’t think they’ll be needed with the proper backcourt.

    64. nicos

      ruruland: The game is quite a bit different than it was in the early ’80s. bernard King was an incredibly great player in his prime — but he would not perform at that level in this NBA with these kind of athletes.

      Aggregate statistics make it pretty clear how the game has changed.

      Bernard was probably more athletic than Melo- certainly much faster end to end and still with comparable strength and body control. He was routinely guarded by 4′s like McHale in the post and never had a problem getting great position or getting his shot off. The biggest difference he’d have to contend with is that the doubles come much, much quicker- as much due to rule changes as better athletes. In Bernard’s day you couldn’t leave your man to double until the catch and as Bernard was often going into his shooting motion before he even caught the ball (still a thing of beauty to watch on video) he had a huge advantage. Of course, he’d have also drawn a lot more fouls as post play was pretty much a blood sport back then so things might even out somewhat. That said, if you could put Melo in the post without having to worry about the double team his efficiency numbers would look a whole lot better.

    65. TelegraphedPass

      Gregg Pop implied in his quote that his modified offense this year was inspired by Mike D’Antoni’s strategies.

      Remember midseason when posters were piling on MDA, calling him a “one-trick pony” and saying his offense was overrated? This is further evidence of the impression DA’s offense left on the league. He literally changed the game.

    66. TelegraphedPass

      TelegraphedPass: Gregg Pop implied in his quote that his modified offense this year was inspired by Mike D’Antoni’s strategies.Remember midseason when posters were piling on MDA, calling him a “one-trick pony” and saying his offense was overrated? This is further evidence of the impression DA’s offense left on the league. He literally changed the game.

      Ugh, sorry. Made that sound really ugly. Kind of out-of-it at work.

      Anyways, here’s the quote:

      http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/05/22/to-d%E2%80%99antoni-popovich%E2%80%99s-philosophy-same-as-before/

    67. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass:
      Gregg Pop implied in his quote that his modified offense this year was inspired by Mike D’Antoni’s strategies.

      Remember midseason when posters were piling on MDA, calling him a “one-trick pony” and saying his offense was overrated? This is further evidence of the impression DA’s offense left on the league. He literally changed the game.

      he is a one-trick pony and he does need certain personnel to run it but it’s still a great offense and he’s a great offensive mind.. he did change the game for the better, no doubt.

    68. thenamestsam

      Unrelated to ongoing discussions of Melo, but I’m interested in the perspective of people on here in regards to the physicality of last nights game. What do you folks think should be the punishments handed out by the commissioner?

      For my money, I liked the calls on both Haslem and Hansbrough. Those are both below what I think ideally would lead to ejections in my mind. Both have the potential to injure, but neither is very likely to in my opinion. However, with the way the NBA is usually called these days I was shocked that Haslem particularly wasn’t thrown out. I don’t think he should get a game, but I think he will. Same deal for Hansbrough, although I think the chances of him getting suspended are more 50-50.

      Pittman, on the other hand, should get 5+ games easily. I prefer to see the game reffed more leniently for the most part, but not when it comes to intentional attempts to hurt players on the other hand. I think he avoided ejection just because the play was so flagrant and ridiculous that the refs almost couldn’t believe their eyes, like the announcers who initially said that Pittman slipped into Stevenson. It wasn’t quite as outrageous as MWP on Harden, but it was close.

    69. TelegraphedPass

      thenamestsam: Unrelated to ongoing discussions of Melo, but I’m interested in the perspective of people on here in regards to the physicality of last nights game. What do you folks think should be the punishments handed out by the commissioner? For my money, I liked the calls on both Haslem and Hansbrough. Those are both below what I think ideally would lead to ejections in my mind. Both have the potential to injure, but neither is very likely to in my opinion. However, with the way the NBA is usually called these days I was shocked that Haslem particularly wasn’t thrown out. I don’t think he should get a game, but I think he will. Same deal for Hansbrough, although I think the chances of him getting suspended are more 50-50.Pittman, on the other hand, should get 5+ games easily. I prefer to see the game reffed more leniently for the most part, but not when it comes to intentional attempts to hurt players on the other hand. I think he avoided ejection just because the play was so flagrant and ridiculous that the refs almost couldn’t believe their eyes, like the announcers who initially said that Pittman slipped into Stevenson. It wasn’t quite as outrageous as MWP on Harden, but it was close.

      Dex got 3 games. He could have gotten more, in my eyes. There’s no place for that in basketball. Lance could have been seriously hurt.

      I agree on the UD and Psycho T fouls though. Flagrant 1s. Neither were particularly awful, just enforcer fouls. They’re punishable, but I think Flagrant 2s and suspensions would be a reach.

    70. johnlocke

      I disagree, I think UDonis’ was clearly a Flagrant 2 and he should have been tossed. It was retaliation and made no attempt to go for the basketball. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is suspended for a game. If that wasn’t a Flagrant 2, what the heck is?

      TelegraphedPass: Dex got 3 games. He could have gotten more, in my eyes. There’s no place for that in basketball. Lance could have been seriously hurt.

      I agree on the UD and Psycho T fouls though. Flagrant 1s. Neither were particularly awful, just enforcer fouls. They’re punishable, but I think Flagrant 2s and suspensions would be a reach.

    71. johnlocke

      And just checked Twitter….reports are that Haslem will be suspended 1 game… appropriate in my mind, given the refs obviously missed the call. I mean it was a really horrible call by the refs I think — I thought it was indefensible (guess I was wrong on that though)

    72. TelegraphedPass

      johnlocke: And just checked Twitter….reports are that Haslem will be suspended 1 game… appropriate in my mind, given the refs obviously missed the call. I mean it was a really horrible call by the refs I think — I thought it was indefensible (guess I was wrong on that though)

      You (and a lot of other people) regard the Haslem foul as much worse than I do. It looked to me like he went for the ball at first, then as HandsBro adjusted he just said “Eff it.” and brought the hammer down anyways. Tyler’s foul on Wade was about as bad to me. I disagree with Haslem being suspended, and ESPECIALLY with Tyler then NOT being suspended.

    73. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      I disagree, I think UDonis’ was clearly a Flagrant 2 and he should have been tossed. It was retaliation and made no attempt to go for the basketball. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is suspended for a game. If that wasn’t a Flagrant 2, what the heck is?

      He did get hit with a game so the NBA sided with you I guess. To me it wasn’t a flagrant 2 because it wasn’t that dangerous. I don’t want to see guys getting tossed from the game unless they’re endangering the other player.

      Making no attempt to go for the ball clearly isn’t a sufficient criteria. How many times has Lebron been grabbed from behind in this series? None of those are attempts to go for the ball (Granger’s one where he grabbed the back of his jersey specifically stands out). Haslem (to my eyes) got almost entirely arm and shoulder. It was a really hard foul obviously and certainly deserving of the flagrant 1, but Hansbrough was not at serious risk of injury on the play in my admittedly non-expert opinion. If guys are getting tossed and suspended after every hard foul.

      Interesting to see how the Heat react without UD. I don’t think they can ever really play Anthony and Turiaf together, so it means they have to go small all game essentially. That has worked pretty well so far though so it may not be too big of an issue.

    74. johnlocke

      Flagrant 1 unnecessary contact… Flagrant 2 …unnecessary and excessive contact — it is not based on the likelihood of injury, just ‘excessive contact’ and yes, it’s subjective. But if that wasn’t excessive I don’t know what is. I guess he’d have to kick him in the nuts for it to be excessive? Excessive usually involves follow-through and no-ball contact on a direct hit to a player or violent shove if in the air/compromised situation.

      Same goes for Pittman — just more blatant / obvious.

      Hansbrough got the ball and then followed through after that…he really got the flagrant b/c Wade was bleeding and the Heat were hollering — in either case unnecessary contact, but not excessive.

      thenamestsam: He did get hit with a game so the NBA sided with you I guess. To me it wasn’t a flagrant 2 because it wasn’t that dangerous. I don’t want to see guys getting tossed from the game unless they’re endangering the other player.

      Making no attempt to go for the ball clearly isn’t a sufficient criteria. How many times has Lebron been grabbed from behind in this series? None of those are attempts to go for the ball (Granger’s one where he grabbed the back of his jersey specifically stands out). Haslem (to my eyes) got almost entirely arm and shoulder. It was a really hard foul obviously and certainly deserving of the flagrant 1, but Hansbrough was not at serious risk of injury on the play in my admittedly non-expert opinion. If guys are getting tossed and suspended after every hard foul.

      Interesting to see how the Heat react without UD. I don’t think they can ever really play Anthony and Turiaf together, so it means they have to go small all game essentially. That has worked pretty well so far though so it may not be too big of an issue.

    75. johnlocke

      Alan Hahn agrees with you, for what that’s worth

      TelegraphedPass: You (and a lot of other people) regard the Haslem foul as much worse than I do. It looked to me like he went for the ball at first, then as HandsBro adjusted he just said “Eff it.” and brought the hammer down anyways. Tyler’s foul on Wade was about as bad to me. I disagree with Haslem being suspended, and ESPECIALLY with Tyler then NOT being suspended.

    76. TelegraphedPass

      johnlocke: Alan Hahn agrees with you, for what that’s worth

      Yeah, saw that. Said this league has gotten soft. Not quite old enough to make those same claims, but I do think there’s a certain physicality in playoff basketball. Short of plays meant to injure, I don’t think every excessive foul merits ejection. UD couldn’t really have hurt Tyler dropping his forearms down on him. It was like a fierce slap. Like I said, absolutely flagrant but not a 2 to me.

      Pittman’s was on some next level. He did the Rey Mysterio elbow from across the key. Awful.

    77. max fisher-cohen

      ess-dog:
      I think it’ hard to win with position players who have non traditional attributes for their position. This is totally unfounded, but roll with me a sec.An sf that posts up a lot is less valuable than a pf that does.A pf that shoots threes is less valuable than a swingman that shoots threes.By that I mean necessarily, one player is working to another’s disadvantage if that player has a roll not common for their position.

      I mostly agree with you. What it comes down to is spacing the floor. In order to get max floor spacing for SF post ups, you need a PF who can stretch the floor. These types of players are far less common than wing players who are dangerous from the perimeter. You have guys like Channing Frye and Ryan Anderson who are subpar at everything EXCEPT shooting (Anderson is a decent rebounder, too, but he’s far from a well-rounded player), and then you have guys like Kevin Love, who are really effing expensive. If Jorts gets his 3 back, he could be a great piece.

      That’s why ideally you want your team to involve a big man in the offense — if they’re not, their presence on the floor, due to them generally being subpar shooters, won’t create space for wing players to get to the rim. It’s is why teams like OKC and Miami, despite having a ridiculous amount of talent, are not nearly as dominant as you might expect, why teams like SAS, Dallas and Memphis are better than the sum of their parts.

      Boston’s offense is terrible (27th in the league), but by putting KG and Bass up front, you get 4 solid shooters around Rondo, allowing him to be effective as a 1st option.

    78. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Flagrant 1 unnecessary contact… Flagrant 2 …unnecessary and excessive contact — it is not based on the likelihood of injury, just ‘excessive contact’ and yes, it’s subjective. But if that wasn’t excessive I don’t know what is. I guess he’d have to kick him in the nuts for it to be excessive?Excessive usually involves follow-through and no-ball contact on a direct hit to a player or violent shove if in the air/compromised situation.

      Same goes for Pittman — just more blatant / obvious.

      Hansbrough got the ball and then followed through after that…he really got the flagrant b/c Wade was bleeding and the Heat were hollering — in either case unnecessary contact, but not excessive.

      Right, I mean excessive is obviously subjective. To me contact isn’t excessive unless it has a chance to injure the guy, but I understand that a lot of people, the league included, obviously view it differently. Have you watched the Hansbrough one closely? To me it was every bit as bad as the UD one. He may have got the ball, but he swung just as hard and recklessly, and the contact with the ball was pretty coincidental. Plus he raked his face on his follow-through. Very similar severity to me.

    79. Owen

      I don’t think the Hansborough foul was all that bad. He stuffed the ball and then followed it down as Wade tried to pull it back. It didn’t look like he was aiming for the head at all.

      I could go either way with the Haslem foul. In isolation I don’t think it is suspension worthy. But as an act of retaliation it probably is.

      Are West and Granger playing in game 6?

    80. jon abbey

      I hate Hansbrough more than almost anyone else in the league, I think he should be punched 3 or 4 times a game just on principle.

      can we stop with the Melo out of shape stuff after what he did matched up on both ends against LeBron in the playoffs? I doubt we can, but we should.

    81. nicos

      With the Haslem foul, I could have seen him getting a flagrant 2 and getting tossed during the game though I didn’t think it was a bad as Kerr made it out to be. That said, I don’t think it was bad enough to warrant a full game suspension- and I think Kerr’s harping on it the whole game put the league in a bad spot where they pretty much had to suspend him. I have no problem with Kerr voicing his opinion but I do think the TV guys have to dial it back a bit in the playoffs as you don’t want them influencing the outcome in any way.

    82. johnlocke

      Woodson said out of shape to start the season..and he did look a little heavy when he entered camp…and he did keep getting nagging injuries every single game… and he needs to b/c a consistent 2 way player….not over the course of 5 games against Lebron or in April. Look at his games from last year with the Knicks…looked like a different (more in shape) guy physically

      jon abbey:
      I hate Hansbrough more than almost anyone else in the league, I think he should be punched 3 or 4 times a game just on principle.

      can we stop with the Melo out of shape stuff after what he did matched up on both ends against LeBron in the playoffs? I doubt we can, but we should.

    83. Kurt

      TelegraphedPass: Ugh, sorry. Made that sound really ugly. Kind of out-of-it at work.

      Anyways, here’s the quote:

      http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/05/22/to-d%E2%80%99antoni-popovich%E2%80%99s-philosophy-same-as-before/

      Nice quote. For me my issue with D’A wasn’t the basic ideas of his “system.” I think most intelligent basketball commentators recognize at this point that ball movement and spacing is critical to a sustainably efficient offense.

      Also, regarding pace, those who think fast paced teams can’t win championships can’t win championships forget about the Showtime Lakers. Even the 80′s Celtics, who had a relatively slower pace than the Lakers, had, I believe, a pace faster than any “fast paced” teams in the past decade (stats, anyone?).

      I also think the idea of attacking before the defense is set (so that most possessions would be the equivalent of semi-transition) makes a lot of sense.

      For reasons discussed often on this blog, the defensive efficiency of the D’Antoni-Nash Suns shows that it’s not as if D’A “didn’t care” about defense.

      The impression I get is that the real problem was communication, managerial skills, in-game adjustments, and holding players accountable (especially on defense). I think there’s a reason that Amar’e played better defense under Gentry and Woodson than under D’Antoni.

      I think that, in an ideal world, D’A is really best suited for a Tex Winter/Del Harris type role of Assistant Coach/Offensive Theorist.

      I think that’s another reason why he was so successful in the 2008 Olympics–he was the assistant rather than head coach.

      In short, I don’t think the problem was his philosophy, it was everything about him that…

    84. jon abbey

      good to see Hollinger not letting Tyson’s dreadful series against Miami slide. someone already quoted the stats, but here’s the whole thing:

      “Tyson Chandler, Knicks: It was only five games and likely doesn’t change anybody’s long-term view of him, but I can’t let this one slide: Holy moly was Chandler bad in that Miami series. His zero-point, seven-turnover, one-flagrant performance in the opener was a playoff egg for the ages, and he built on that by fouling out with one point in Game 4.

      Chandler contracted the flu before Game 1, and that might have excused his poor play to start the series, but his play stayed awful the whole way through. And it applies just as much on defense — in particular, his unwillingness to challenge a Wade drive down Main Street for a dunk in Game 5, and that was a giant surrender flag from the Knicks. The final tally: 18 fouls, 15 turnovers, 11 made baskets and a 10.10 PER from the league’s defensive player of the year.”

    85. johnlocke

      Yeh he was awful on both ends. Watched him watch way too many uncontested layups …just turrible.
      Chandler, Davis, Amare (he had one good game), Fields, Douglas in that order for worst performance in that series.

      jon abbey:
      good to see Hollinger not letting Tyson’s dreadful series against Miami slide. someone already quoted the stats, but here’s the whole thing:

      “Tyson Chandler, Knicks: It was only five games and likely doesn’t change anybody’s long-term view of him, but I can’t let this one slide: Holy moly was Chandler bad in that Miami series. His zero-point, seven-turnover, one-flagrant performance in the opener was a playoff egg for the ages, and he built on that by fouling out with one point in Game 4.

      Chandler contracted the flu before Game 1, and that might have excused his poor play to start the series, but his play stayed awful the whole way through. And it applies just as much on defense — in particular, his unwillingness to challenge a Wade drive down Main Street for a dunk in Game 5, and that was a giant surrender flag from the Knicks. The final tally: 18 fouls, 15 turnovers, 11 made baskets and a 10.10 PER from the league’s defensive player of the year.”

    86. d-mar

      Watching Philly take an aging, offensively challenged Boston team to 7 games, all I keep thinking is that should be us.

    87. Brian Cronin

      Watching Philly take an aging, offensively challenged Boston team to 7 games, all I keep thinking is that should be us.

      Watching the Sixers try to play offense in the playoffs I sometimes think I am watching the playoff Knicks (well, the Knicks of Games 1-3 and 5, at least).

    88. Frank

      I watched about half the “Game” last night – just awful. Is it just me or does Spencer Hawes just suck? Wasn’t he supposed to be a good player this year? All he does on offense is catch the ball in the high post (actually even farther out than that), pump fake, then give the ball to someone else in a disadvantageous position. He’s like their Landry Fields without even the chance of a drive to the hoop.

    89. Brian Cronin

      I also thought Doug Collins was supposed to be a good coach, and yet their offensive sets are just horrendous. It is always, like, a shock to me if they actually find a way to score. And when they do it is often off of terrible shots. I guess he does teach them to play strong D.

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