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Tuesday, September 2, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Mar 28 2012)

  • [New York Post] Doc preaches patience with Knicks’ Stoudemire (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:59:49 -0500)
    The Knicks would be wise to have a conservative approach with ailing Amar’e Stoudemire and have him ready to go for the playoffs instead of rushing him back sooner, according to one medical expert on bulging disks.
    Stoudemire sought a second opinion Tuesday night in Miami after the Knicks…

  • [New York Post] Anthony says he must get Knicks to playoffs (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:59:26 -0500)
    It’s time for Carmelo Anthony to put up or shut up and find his outside shot.
    With Amar’e Stoudemire possibly out until the playoffs because of a bulging disk, the back that must carry the Knicks into the playoffs during these final 16 games is Anthony’s. It…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Lin won’t play until fully recovered (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:58:56 -0500)
    Jeremy Lin, whose sore left knee forced him to miss the Knicks’ victory over the Bucks Monday, reiterated last night he is trying to fully heal before playing again.
    “I’m just making sure that I’m 100 percent pain-free before I come back,â? Lin said at a Steiner Sports…

  • [New York Post] Davis’ task: limit his turnovers (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:58:30 -0500)
    Baron Davis, in his first start with the Knicks Monday, didn’t make the case he belongs as the man to supplant Jeremy Lin as starting point guard anytime soon.
    In fact, it is becoming more than evident the Knicks got extra lucky Linsanity happened and Davis no longer was…

  • [New York Post] Amare’s bad back hamstrings Knicks (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:10:01 -0500)
    Interesting that Amar’e Stoudemire came to New York without Carmelo Anthony or Jeremy Lin and had fans chanting “MVP…MVP.â?
    And then Jeremy generated Linsanity minus Melo and Amar’e, and spearheaded seven-straight Knicks’ wins.
    Monday night, without Stoudemire (out indefinitely with a bulging disk) and Lin (left leg…

  • [New York Daily News] Melo and Amar’e in Knicks’ hurt locker (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:35:50 GMT)
    You might say the Knicks’ only recourse between now and when the contracts of Carmelo Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire are up is to keep their fingers crossed and the medical staff on high alert. And that still might not be enough.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo now the Knicks’ lone star (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:20:53 GMT)
    The Carmelo Anthony-Amar’e Stoudemire pairing hasn’t been working, and still you have to think that the Knicks would much rather have that problem than be where they are today: Facing life without their No. 2 scoring option.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo expects to face Magic; Lin iffy (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:40:24 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony expects to be in the Knicks’ lineup Wednesday vs. Orlando, but Jeremy Lin was less committal after missing Monday’s game with a sore knee.

  • [New York Times] For the Knicks, a Busy Day Off (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:00:11 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin, Iman Shumpert and Steve Novak entertained several hundred fans, Carmelo Anthony said he’d play on Wednesday and Amar’e Stoudemire sought a second opinion on his bulging disk.

  • [New York Times] Bucks Close In on Knicks (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 03:47:23 GMT)
    Monta Ellis scored 33 points, including 17 in the fourth quarter, as the Milwaukee Bucks held off the Atlanta Hawks, 108-101.

  • [New York Times] Bryant Leads Lakers Past Warriors, 104-101 (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:35:03 GMT)
    Kobe Bryant is back to being the closer.

  • [New York Times] Westbrook Has 32 and Thunder Beat Blazers 109-95 (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:50:12 GMT)
    Russell Westbrook had 32 points and eight assists, Kevin Durant scored 25 points and the Western Conference-leading Oklahoma City Thunder won their fourth straight with a 109-95 victory over the Portland Trail Blazers on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Parker, Duncan Pace Spurs to 5th Straight Win (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:44:07 GMT)
    Tony Parker scored eight points in a 10-0 San Antonio run early in the fourth quarter, and the Spurs went on to win their fifth in a row and eighth in nine games with a 107-100 victory over the Phoenix Suns on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Mavericks Finally Overcome Rockets for 90-81 Win (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:29:04 GMT)
    Jason Terry scored seven consecutive points in a minute to start a game-turning run for the Dallas Mavericks, who went on to a 90-81 victory over the Houston Rockets on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Gay, Cunningham Lead Grizzlies Over Wolves (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 02:56:17 GMT)
    Rudy Gay scored 21 points, Dante Cunningham added season highs of 13 points and 14 rebounds, and the Memphis Grizzlies beat the Minnesota Timberwolves 93-86 on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] 76ers Romp in 103-85 Win Over Cavaliers (Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:35:06 GMT)
    Jodie Meeks scored a career-high 31 points and Jrue Holiday had 19 to lead the Philadelphia 76ers to a 103-85 victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers on Tuesday night.

  • 198 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Mar 28 2012)

    1. Nick C.

      Seems like on Amare and his back there is a lot of non-specific information out there. Is the same area of his back from before? Is there impingement. Are bulging discs really traumatic as opposed to degenerative injuries? Would you believe anything written Marc Berman on medicine much less anything. Can we talk more about Kenneth Faried? (just kidding) But really the information about this Amare injury is so vague and non specific as to be a step above Fred Sanford level “oooh my lumbago.”

    2. cgreene

      Something I find troublesome. I know we are not to question injuries with players and all but Lin’s quote about needing to be 100% pain free before playing bothers me. I mean who is 100% pain free this season? Certainly not his teammate Carmelo. If there is a risk of injury then fine but that has not been mentioned. They said there is pain from over use. Well if you don’t use it now and we lose then you’re not going to be able to use it later. Kind of surprised by this bc he seems like a tough kid. Obviously we dont know how much pain is there but…

      OK now everyone pile on and tell me how I should never question injuries and such…

    3. Frank

      Re: Lin – I feel like he’s probably saying that so there will be no excuses when he does come back. I think he’s shown he’s plenty tough.

      And I love this “Knicks only have one star left” headline – do the writers realize that Tyson Chandler is the Knicks’ best player? Also essentially on a max contract? And probably will come in top 2 or 3 in DPOY voting? And is posting Wilt-like #s in TS% and FG%? I mean, I am not a Melo/Amare-hater but TC does what he does at least as well if not better than those two.

    4. Nick C.

      You should know by now that “stars” are still determined by PPG. :-)
      Is anyone else bothered that Baron’s game looks so f’in ugly, I mean I know he was not exactly a coaches pet with Scott @ NO but geez.

    5. d-mar

      Nick C.:
      You should know by now that “stars” are still determined by PPG. :-)
      Is anyone else bothered that Baron’s game looks so f’in ugly, I mean I know he was not exactly a coaches pet with Scott @ NO but geez.

      He takes “freelancing” to a whole new level, I find myself holding my breath every time he dances and prances in the paint. And I shudder when I think that he was considered our savior before a guy named Lin came along.

    6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Cue some nonsense from a certain Davis supporter about how he’s still learning the system, getting in game shape, helping the team with his creativity, etc.

      And yeah, Fields hasn’t been as good as he has been in the past. Still an NBA-caliber player, but his 3 point shooting is really sinking him. He’s Josh Smith bad.

    7. Nick C.

      Except if Woodson tells him to stop shooting the three it would seem a little odd for a starting 2G? Which bring you to the next question who would you run from screaming first the Knicks shot fixers or the Mets medical staff?

    8. JLam

      I watched the event with Shump, Novak and Lin together with Steiner Sports. They are an entertaining trio. I hope the Knicks can keep they together as a group as they seem to have good chemistry on and off the court.

    9. Frank O.

      : Nah. I hear what you’re saying, but in the same sense with Melo (to a much lesser extent and sans injuries), JR’s had long cold stretches like this pretty much every year, only to break into prolonged periods where he’s a dominant (43+%), high volume shooter.

      The problem is that what in the past used to be a typical, poor shooting stretch of 10-15 games , now means a LOT MORE…. So it feels as though he’ll never shoot well again just because each game feels more important.

      I think this point from the last threat fits right into my thinking on the truncated season. Because the games come fast and furious, without practices, with little rest, slumps are lasting longer, bad habits become full-blown problems and pressure bleeds players emotionally. There is no time to fix form imperfections, no time to adjust, no time to shake the funk one feels as bad games mount.
      Players like Fields, whose shot is hopelessly broken, or Melo, who needs some time to get his legs, head and and wrist right, are truly suffering because of the nature of this season.
      This season is such a distortion. It magnifies so many issues.
      The one constant, tho, is effort, relative effort. Applied to defense as the Knicks have, it wears down tired teams. The Knicks have found the right approach to being successful.
      I think jon said this, that it doesn’t feel like the Knicks are on an 8-1… stretch, probably because the loss was so lackluster.

      With Melo it’s different and more complicated. But I would be very surprised, assuming good health, if both aren’t playing at a much higher level on offense by the playoffs.

    10. johnlocke

      Amare injury wouldn’t be nearly as big of an issue if Jeffries wasn’t also injured…One of the under-rated things Jeffries does is get Novak open for three on screens (in addition to his million other intangibles)…2 weeks out for him is like half the games we have left though…

      Frank:
      Re: Lin – I feel like he’s probably saying that so there will be no excuses when he does come back.I think he’s shown he’s plenty tough.

      And I love this “Knicks only have one star left” headline – do the writers realize that Tyson Chandler is the Knicks’ best player? Also essentially on a max contract? And probably will come in top 2 or 3 in DPOY voting? And is posting Wilt-like #s in TS% and FG%?I mean, I am not a Melo/Amare-hater but TC does what he does at least as well if not better than those two.

    11. Frank

      Some ok news:

      alanhahn: #Knicks announce second opinion on Stoudemire’s back agreed with initial prognosis: non-surgical treatment. He is out 2-4 weeks. #fb

      I probably would keep him out all 4 weeks unless he is obviously symptom-free before that. That’ll give us time to get used to playing without him. He may need to play himself back into shape in the playoffs but that’s better than having him come back, counting on him, then going down again leaving us with a team that isn’t sure what its plan is on offense.

      And despite his recent improved defense, he’s still a net minus on D, especially when JJ comes back.

    12. thenamestsam

      cgreene:
      Something I find troublesome.I know we are not to question injuries with players and all but Lin’s quote about needing to be 100% pain free before playing bothers me.I mean who is 100% pain free this season?Certainly not his teammate Carmelo.If there is a risk of injury then fine but that has not been mentioned.They said there is pain from over use.Well if you don’t use it now and we lose then you’re not going to be able to use it later.Kind of surprised by this bc he seems like a tough kid.Obviously we dont know how much pain is there but…

      OK now everyone pile on and tell me how I should never question injuries and such…

      I also found this a little…odd I guess is the word. I’m really not the type to question injuries typically but it is a little offputting that he had the type of injury where he’ll be back in a few days (tells me it’s not that serious) and he participated in the shoot around (tells me it’s a relatively small chance of making it worse by playing) and then he doesn’t even try to give it a go in one of the most important games of our season.

      And I’m not sure I buy that he has already proven his toughness. Yes, he has taken a lot of whacks and gotten up, but it has been all of 25 games. That’s not exactly the long haul and his fearless foraying to the paint has definitely been dialed back in that time. Now he’s starting to miss games. Not a big thing, but I am slightly concerned.

    13. TelegraphedPass

      Re: The Lin injury

      I doubt Lin would rather sit on the bench than get out and help his team win. I think a lot of the caution comes from his and the coaching staff’s understanding that he his our point guard of at least the near future, and jeopardizing his knees for the sake of a possible Cinderella run from the 8th seed is asinine. I never considered this year to be part of NY’s title window anyways, and would rather Lin play it safe than rush back.

    14. art vandelay

      Frank: Some ok news:alanhahn: #Knicks announce second opinion on Stoudemire’s back agreed with initial prognosis: non-surgical treatment. He is out 2-4 weeks. #fbI probably would keep him out all 4 weeks unless he is obviously symptom-free before that. That’ll give us time to get used to playing without him. He may need to play himself back into shape in the playoffs but that’s better than having him come back, counting on him, then going down again leaving us with a team that isn’t sure what its plan is on offense.And despite his recent improved defense, he’s still a net minus on D, especially when JJ comes back.

      My guess (and I hope I am wrong) is that he takes the 4 weeks off, returns for playoffs and is just as ineffective as when Ewing came back after the Andrew Lang-induced broken wrist for 1996 Playoffs during that series against Indiana which we lost in 5. I think probably we won´t see a real facsimile (if at all) of him until after offseason surgery.

    15. art vandelay

      johnlocke: Amare injury wouldn’t be nearly as big of an issue if Jeffries wasn’t also injured…One of the under-rated things Jeffries does is get Novak open for three on screens (in addition to his million other intangibles)…2 weeks out for him is like half the games we have left though…

      Good point. Novak couldn´t get open at all against the Bucks for 3´s…Chandler has been decent at setting picks for free Novak beyond the 3-point line in the past (at least he was during the Linsanity winning streak).

    16. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      And yeah, Fields hasn’t been as good as he has been in the past. Still an NBA-caliber player, but his 3 point shooting is really sinking him. He’s Josh Smith bad.

      I know you love Fields but he really is not playing at a “rotation player” level right now. Since the ASB – which is now 15 games during which Shumpert has been getting better and better – Fields’s per-36 numbers look like this:

      9.9 points, 5.8 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.7 turnovers, 1.7 steals on a TS of 45.9. He is shooting 14.3% from 3 point range and 55.6% from the line. And this isn’t such a small sample anymore – we’re talking 15 games, almost 1/4 of the season.

      This TS would place him in the bottom 10 of all shooting guards in the entire league –

      This 3P% would place him 2nd to last of all shooting guards in the entire league who have played more than 10 games. The only worse is Lance Stephenson.

      This FT% would put him on the last page (of 5) of all guards in FT%. If you confine this to shooting guards, he would be the 7th worst in the entire league. His shooting is so bad that all the major stat sites won’t even call him a shooting guard anymore, even though he’s started there almost every game this year. (he’s under G but not under SG).

      He is not an NBA starting shooting guard at this point. He’s a total liability on offense (although his passing has been pretty good) and is an average defender at best at the 2 position. I feel bad saying this because I like Landry, but he should be the 10th guy playing on this team right now.

    17. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      And yeah, Fields hasn’t been as good as he has been in the past. Still an NBA-caliber player, but his 3 point shooting is really sinking him. He’s Josh Smith bad.

      btw – Josh Smith’s 3P% is fully double what Landry’s has been since the ASB. And there is no sign it’s getting better. Landry’s 3P% monthly splits since the beginning of the year:

      29–>24–>15 and in his last 10 games, it has been 10%. Call it small sample size if you want, but that looks like a trend.

    18. TelegraphedPass

      I’m fairly certain that rushing back from a knee strain for the opportunity to face Dwight Howard is not a good idea for a point guard who is best at driving the lane and drawing contact. Why would a less-than-100% Lin want to do that? Would it even be that helpful to have him?

    19. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Did something significant happen over the All Star Break that makes it a good point to begin a sample? I don’t understand how that’s meaningful to me at all.

    20. massive

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Did something significant happen over the All Star Break that makes it a good point to begin a sample? I don’t understand how that’s meaningful to me at all.

      Inversely, what makes it a bad point to begin a sample?

    21. massive

      I think the Knicks broke Landry Fields’ shot. Didn’t he lead the league in 3 point shooting last year? Now his shot is a line drive that hits the front of the rim. He needs to snap his wrist and add some more arch to his shot.

    22. Caleb

      Fields’ shooting numbers have been bad all season, let’s not split hairs.

      I think his all-around game is solid – he’s still a good rebounder, and he’s improved his handle, his passing and ability to get to the basket. He struggles on D but works hard and isn’t abominable. And hey, last year he shot 40 percent from 3, and 75 percent frmo the line. If he did that again, he’d be a good player. But the way he’s shooting now, he’s a liability. It’s gone on long enough – about a full year – that he has to prove himself. It’s not just a slump. Same thing I’d say about _____, except he let the rest of his game completely go to hell along with his shot.

      fwiw, I like Shumpert who does many things well and is actually an impact defender as a rookie – rare – but I don’t get the optimistim about his shooting… because his shot “looks nice?” Which I don’t think it does, especially, but that’s besides the point. He was an awful shooter in college, he’s shown no sign of being able to shoot as a pro, let’s assume he can’t shoot until he can.

    23. TelegraphedPass

      It’s perhaps a bit early, but at this point should we seriously consider not extending Landry Fields? Shump and JR make a stronger guard rotation unless Landry finds his 3 point shot again. We have precious little money to spend and Earl seems amenable to taking a little less money to be a part of NY’s future. If we had to decide between JR and Landry, shouldn’t we stick with the talent that we know Swish is?

    24. Caleb

      And, the Lin news really sucks. Orlando is a very beatable team right now.

      Not saying it’s wrong to hold him out – I know the season is short, but better to sacrifice now and get right in a few days than play sub-par the rest of the way, and risk a worse injury while you’re at it.

    25. SSS

      TelegraphedPass: It’s perhaps a bit early, but at this point should we seriously consider not extending Landry Fields? Shump and JR make a stronger guard rotation unless Landry finds his 3 point shot again. We have precious little money to spend and Earl seems amenable to taking a little less money to be a part of NY’s future. If we had to decide between JR and Landry, shouldn’t we stick with the talent that we know Swish is?

      I don’t think its an option to choose JR over Landry for cap purposes, since we have Bird rights for Landry, but not for JR (the board will correct me if I’m misstated that).

    26. TelegraphedPass

      @30 We don’t have Bird rights for Landry; he’s a sophomore and Bird rights take 3 years. Either way, we still need to find room to extend them. JR has a player option, and said he plans on using it. He may have been lying, but I think he’s willing to stay ere (he likes playing for this team) if he will be considered an important part of the team moving forward. Inherent in that assessment is the idea that we would pay him big money down the line for his sacrifice.

    27. thenamestsam

      massive: Inversely, what makes it a bad point to begin a sample?

      The problem is cherry picking your sample. If you’re looking through the data until you find the point where he stopped making shots you’re always going to come to incorrect conclusions about the probability of something going forward. You can use the exact same sample choosing process to show that a coin has a non-50% chance of being heads.

    28. Caleb

      TelegraphedPass:
      It’s perhaps a bit early, but at this point should we seriously consider not extending Landry Fields? Shump and JR make a stronger guard rotation unless Landry finds his 3 point shot again. We have precious little money to spend and Earl seems amenable to taking a little less money to be a part of NY’s future. If we had to decide between JR and Landry, shouldn’t we stick with the talent that we know Swish is?

      JR is not coming back, barring a really strange turn of events. As best I can tell, we can only offer him some kind of bi-annual exception, in the $2 million range. He can get a lot more than that, unless he starts a weekly Twitter feed of nude pics.

    29. jon abbey

      I think Baron getting a few games with 30 or so minutes will be a good thing for this team in the long run, as it’ll give us a much better chance to see what exactly he can give us this year. for one thing, he’s definitely an upgrade in defense to start the game, and Jennings never got going in the last game. we’ll miss Lin in the 4th quarter, certainly.

      I don’t believe that Landry Fields isn’t easily replaceable next year, he has sucked all season. if you made me choose between him and Toney Douglas for next year, I’d definitely pick Toney and that is saying something.

    30. jon abbey

      Caleb: JR is not coming back, barring a really strange turn of events. As best I can tell, we can only offer him some kind of bi-annual exception, in the $2 million range. He can get a lot more than that, unless he starts a weekly Twitter feed of nude pics.

      JR has a $2.5M player option with us.

    31. TelegraphedPass

      @Caleb Hmmm. I wonder why he even included a player option in his deal to begin with. Insurance against injury maybe? He said earlier that he plans on excercising his option. I would be sad to see him go. What he does is difficult to replace.

    32. massive

      thenamestsam: The problem is cherry picking your sample. If you’re looking through the data until you find the point where he stopped making shots you’re always going to come to incorrect conclusions about the probability of something going forward. You can use the exact same sample choosing process to show that a coin has a non-50% chance of being heads.

      But “after the all-star break” usually means “for the 2nd half of the season,” which is a normally accepted term. Fields has been shooting badly all season, and it extends to when Carmelo was first traded here. Frank was showing a downward trend from the beginning of the season, and it really hurts the team when your shooting guard can’t shoot.

      Amazingly though, his WS/48 is at .100, which makes him a completely average player in this league.

    33. SSS

      TelegraphedPass: @30 We don’t have Bird rights for Landry; he’s a sophomore and Bird rights take 3 years.

      Thanks for the clarification. One of these days I will take a few minutes to actually wrap my head around the basics of this salary cap. Probably.

    34. jon abbey

      massive:

      Amazingly though, his WS/48 is at .100, which makes him a completely average player in this league.

      WS doesn’t count D, right?

    35. massive

      jon abbey: WS doesn’t count D, right?

      You have a point there. WS/48 doesn’t count defense, but if it did, it probably wouldn’t make his score worse; he’s average on that end, too.

    36. d-mar

      You know, in the “old days” I wouldn’t feel good about our chances tonight, but with this new total commitment to defense, I feel like we can beat anyone, even missing some key offensive weapons. Just please please don’t let Anderson hit a ton of 3′s, I can live with anyone else scoring. If he lights it up, we’re toast.

    37. jon abbey

      massive: You have a point there. WS/48 doesn’t count defense, but if it did, it probably wouldn’t make his score worse; he’s average on that end, too.

      not sure if I believe he is actually an average defender, but the other thing that WS/48 doesn’t count is what Hollinger referenced in the quote someone posted yesterday, Fields’ constant ‘punting’ of the ball when he is the 5th option and drawing the least defensive attention of anyone on the court, errors of omission instead of commission.

    38. ephus

      TelegraphedPass: TelegraphedPass says:

      March 28, 2012 at 11:22 am

      @30 We don’t have Bird rights for Landry; he’s a sophomore and Bird rights take 3 years. Either way, we still need to find room to extend them.

      Actually, the Knicks have “Early Bird” rights on Landry, which means that we can offer him up to the mean salary (which is basically the same as the MLE) WITHOUT having to utilize the MLE. That is why the Knicks can bring back both Lin (on whom the Knicks would have to use the MLE) and Fields. If Smith exercises his player option for next season (and plays for $2.5 million), then the Knicks would acquire Early Bird rights on him and could re-sign him to the MLE during the 2013 off-season without using the MLE

    39. Frank O.

      jon abbey: not sure if I believe he is actually an average defender, but the other thing that WS/48 doesn’t count is what Hollinger referenced in the quote someone posted yesterday, Fields’ constant ‘punting’ of the ball when he is the 5th option and drawing the least defensive attention of anyone on the court, errors of omission instead of commission.

      You know, the idea that Fields or Shumpert or Jeffries do not draw defenses I think is mitigated by the others weapons on the team and the Knicks’ ability to move the ball. Gone are the days when teams can simply sag around Amare. Even with Amare out, there is Melo, there is Chandler in the paint, and then there is Smith and Novak. The Knicks are too deep. They hurt teams in every aspect of the game, offensively and defensively, so much so that having a struggling Fields or a struggling Shumpert is no longer as big a deal. Our role players can play their roles without the overriding need for them to do other things. Now they can afford to field a defense specialist at the two, or a slashing two, who is an average defender with poor 3 pt skills. Frankly, because of Melo and Chandler and Smith and Novak, guys like Jeffries actually have space from time to time to actually develop an offensive ability.
      Good, deep teams have the luxury of specialization.
      It also gives room for talented young players to learn and develop without the burden of needing to be multifaceted from the outset.
      All this talk of not signing Fields is bullshit. You know he can play in this league. You have seen it. But he’s a sophomore pro. We all need to be patient with him. It will be rewarded, IMHO.
      The Knicks’ depth will be a blessing for their young core of Lin, Shumpert, Fields, Harrelson, and others. The future is way brighter than I think anyone could have expected after the Melo trade gutted the Knicks starting youth.

    40. Frank O.

      I sometimes wonder what this team would be like it thy had been able to keep Gallo or Wilson Chandler.
      Spilled milk…

    41. Doug

      I think Landry needs an offseason to either fix his shot or go back to his old, slower mechanics. If he still can’t shoot by next season, then he will be dead to me. Like “removing him from my ‘Favorite Athletes’ section on facebook” dead to me.

    42. Doug

      Frank O.:
      I sometimes wonder what this team would be like it thy had been able to keep Gallo or Wilson Chandler.
      Spilled milk…

      Frank, do you think Gallo and Chandler would be worth keeping if we signed them to the same deals Denver did?

    43. JK47

      Frank O.: You know, the idea that Fields or Shumpert or Jeffries do not draw defenses I think is mitigated by the others weapons on the team and the Knicks’ ability to move the ball. Gone are the days when teams can simply sag around Amare. Even with Amare out, there is Melo, there is Chandler in the paint, and then there is Smith and Novak. The Knicks are too deep. They hurt teams in every aspect of the game, offensively and defensively, so much so that having a struggling Fields or a struggling Shumpert is no longer as big a deal.

      In theory this is true but in practice the Knicks offense still kinda sucks. Melo and Smith have been woefully inefficient, Chandler has no go-to offensive moves and the team overall is 27th in the league in 3-point percentage. The end result is that the Knicks are still a depressing 23rd in offensive rating, and very often have great difficulty scoring.

    44. Eternal OptiKnist

      Its matchups like this that make me so appreciative of having Chandler on this roster. Not saying he shuts DH12 down, but we have a legit chance to win the game because we have a true 7-footer who can cause problems for him 1-on-1. We have a real chance to win this game in IMHO. I’d say if Jared was playing, we win. Anyone know what Vegas is saying?

    45. Juany8

      Why are people so nice to one of the worst starters in the NBA. Fields is by far the Knicks worst player on both ends of the court (if Shumpert decided to start being an ass and passing up WIDE open shots to raise some reductionistic individual statistic I’d be calling for him to sit down too) If your starting two guard cannot make jumpers or free throws, he better be Ronnie Brewer on defense (note that even Brewer doesn’t start) not the worst defender on a team with Novak, Lin, and Amar’e taking serious minutes. There is nothing Fields does better than Shump or JR except run into opposing screeners like they’re fucking brick walls. Oh and of course holding the ball for 5 seconds when he’s kicked out to with no one within 10 ft, only to force Lin/JR/Melo to jack up a shot against the shot clock.

    46. jon abbey

      Frank O.:
      All this talk of not signing Fields is bullshit. You know he can play in this league. You have seen it.

      how do you feel about Toney Douglas? we saw that he could play in this league too, until he couldn’t.

    47. Frank O.

      Doug: Frank, do you think Gallo and Chandler would be worth keeping if we signed them to the same deals Denver did?

      Probably no to Gallo, yes to Chandler.
      Gallo’s issues with broken bones…

    48. Frank O.

      JK47: In theory this is true but in practice the Knicks offense still kinda sucks.Melo and Smith have been woefully inefficient, Chandler has no go-to offensive moves and the team overall is 27th in the league in 3-point percentage.The end result is that the Knicks are still a depressing 23rd in offensive rating, and very often have great difficulty scoring.

      I recognize this, and I think it’s a temporary thing. It also is mitigated by one of the top defenses in the Nba

    49. jon abbey

      Juany8:
      Why are people so nice to one of the worst starters in the NBA. Fields is by far the Knicks worst player on both ends of the court (if Shumpert decided to start being an ass and passing up WIDE open shots to raise some reductionistic individual statistic I’d be calling for him to sit down too) If your starting two guard cannot make jumpers or free throws, he better be Ronnie Brewer on defense (note that even Brewer doesn’t start) not the worst defender on a team with Novak, Lin, and Amar’e taking serious minutes. There is nothing Fields does better than Shump or JR except run into opposing screeners like they’re fucking brick walls. Oh and of course holding the ball for 5 seconds when he’s kicked out to with no one within 10 ft, only to force Lin/JR/Melo to jack up a shot against the shot clock.

      amen, my brotha. just because he’s the Knick some would most like to marry their sister doesn’t mean he deserves to play when everyone is healthy.

    50. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Did something significant happen over the All Star Break that makes it a good point to begin a sample? I don’t understand how that’s meaningful to me at all.

      Totally arbitrary by me but so are all these things. Only chosen because the “splits” section of most stats sites has that as an option and it’s easier to do the TS and per-36 calculations from that. Doesn’t change the fact that Fields sucks right now. His #s started to trend down in March last year and he has not recovered since. We are at the point now where his amazing #s from the 1st half of last year look like the outlier rather than what we should expect him to get back to.

    51. Eternal OptiKnist

      Juany8: Why are people so nice to one of the worst starters in the NBA. Fields is by far the Knicks worst player on both ends of the court .

      Not advocating this, but to answer your question directly, its 2-fold…FIRST – last year we saw an amazing story in a 2nd round pick being very effective for a franchise whose fanbase was looking for something to root for. So i think alot of people expect it should be able to happen again. SECOND – professional sports is reality TV…it truly is theatre and Landry Fields is an infinitely likeable character. Starting with his background as the late 2nd round pick who a magical rookie year, but personality-wise, he seems like a nice person, comes across as smart and articulate, unselfish, etc. Very easy to root for. As much as i want to see him do well, he makes 2-guard such a weak position for us right now so i wouldn’t mind giving DWTDD a shot. I feel bad because this is a contract year for Landry…i hope he gets it going.

    52. max fisher-cohen

      Re: winning tonight

      Orlando lives and dies by the 3. Because 3s are so high variance, some nights they can beat anyone, and other nights they can lose to anyone. Some of that has to do with our defense, but a lot of it is luck.

      Doug: Frank, do you think Gallo and Chandler would be worth keeping if we signed them to the same deals Denver did?

      Gallinari, definitely. Wilson, possibly (health issues make the deal questionable).

    53. Frank

      Re: whether or not we should sign Fields — he is not worth more than a biannual exception-level contract right now, and to be honest, if he keeps playing like this, he’s a minimum salary guy. We are going to be pretty close to the luxury tax line going forward, and every contract counts. If you look at his numbers, I doubt anyone else will offer him more than $2M/year – we shouldn’t either. If he comes in at that # then I think we sign him and hope that someone can fix his shot, and that he keeps making Lin happy with handshakes and whatnot. If he is above that, I’d honestly rather take a chance on finding someone with a minimum contract than have an over-market contract on Fields be the reason we can’t offer the full MLE in 13-14 or 14-15.

    54. Frank O.

      jon abbey: how do you feel about Toney Douglas? we saw that he could play in this league too, until he couldn’t.

      I think as this season has progressed I believe what is happening to him is anomalous. I really think this schedule magnifies and makes worse difficulties players have. landry’s, and to a lesser degree Shump’s and Smith’s shooting problems, are exacerbated by the compressed schedule and few practices. They are forced to work out problems in games and as we have seen with Melo, a veteran with no shortage of confidence, difficulties can mount and crush a player, especially young ones. My opinion.

    55. Frank O.

      I was pretty unhappy with TD. Of course, unlike Fields and others, TD be Mae dysfunctional in all aspects of the game.

    56. Juany8

      I’m starting to try to talk myself into Bill Walker it’s been so bad lol. If only he wasn’t so…. stupid. Still I honestly believe the Knicks biggest problem by far has been Fields. Unless everyone thinks it’s a total coincidence and complete mystery that the opposing 2 guard is getting open 3′s all game (Ben Gordon, Mike Dunleavy, Gary Forbes, Gerald Henderson… a lot of limited wings are having career games against Fields). I’m sure some people will blame Melo for not rotating properly or something stupid while Fields is plastered to some big’s chest, but it’s not a coincidence that our defense becomes suffocating at the end of games when Fields is never in.

    57. Frank O.

      Frank:
      Re: whether or not we should sign Fields — he is not worth more than a biannual exception-level contract right now, and to be honest, if he keeps playing like this, he’s a minimum salary guy.We are going to be pretty close to the luxury tax line going forward, and every contract counts.If you look at his numbers, I doubt anyone else will offer him more than $2M/year – we shouldn’t either.If he comes in at that # then I think we sign him and hope that someone can fix his shot, and that he keeps making Lin happy with handshakes and whatnot.If he is above that, I’d honestly rather take a chance on finding someone with a minimum contract than have an over-market contract on Fields be the reason we can’t offer the full MLE in 13-14 or 14-15.

      Hard to argue against this reasoning. But to simply give up on him seems silly, which u didn’t suggest.

    58. Juany8

      Frank O.: Hard to argue against this reasoning. But to simply give up on him seems silly, which u didn’t suggest.

      Benching a guy isn’t necessarily giving up on him. It’s possible to let him develop and grow in practice, without the pressure of working out mistakes in a game. If the Landry Fields that played the first half of last year comes back, sure he’d be a good role player and the Knicks should keep him. This Landry Fields doesn’t deserve playing time, and being accountable at some point means benching players that aren’t performing (or burying corpses that are still playing, like Mike Bibby) Maybe he can even play some in the D-League where he can jack up 3′s till he gets it right without destroying the Knicks

    59. JK47

      In this recent 8-1 streak Landry has only gotten more than 25 minutes once, in the first game of the Indiana home-and-away, a game the Knicks had put away by the third quarter. Woodson is quietly but unmistakably reducing Fields’ role on the team.

    60. steveoh

      I know we’ve put ourselves into a position where we need to win every last game, but don’t you think holding Lin out tonight is a really good idea? I do.

      Amar’e is already out.
      Jeffries is already out.
      Orlando’s won their last three and this isn’t a back-to-back.

      Let’s face it. Even with Lin, we’re probably not going to win tonight.

      So isn’t it smart to play the odds and sacrifice tonight to get a little more healthy in the long run? Giving Lin’s knee a little more time to heal so he’s less hindered by it for the last 24 games or so might be a victory through defeat.

      (Not that losing is a foregone conclusion. Anything can happen. Melo might have one of those nights tonight. He’ll have to).

    61. Frank O.

      Juany8:
      I’m starting to try to talk myself into Bill Walker it’s been so bad lol. If only he wasn’t so…. stupid. Still I honestly believe the Knicks biggest problem by far has been Fields. Unless everyone thinks it’s a total coincidence and complete mystery that the opposing 2 guard is getting open 3?s all game (Ben Gordon, Mike Dunleavy, Gary Forbes, Gerald Henderson… a lot of limited wings are having career games against Fields). I’m sure some people will blame Melo for not rotating properly or something stupid while Fields is plastered to some big’s chest, but it’s not a coincidence that our defense becomes suffocating at the end of games when Fields is never in.

      Respectfully, I think you are overstating

    62. Frank O.

      Juany8: Benching a guy isn’t necessarily giving up on him. It’s possible to let him develop and grow in practice, without the pressure of working out mistakes in a game. If the Landry Fields that played the first half of last year comes back, sure he’d be a good role player and the Knicks should keep him. This Landry Fields doesn’t deserve playing time, and being accountable at some point means benching players that aren’t performing (or burying corpses that are still playing, like Mike Bibby) Maybe he can even play some in the D-League where he can jack up 3?s till he gets it right without destroying the Knicks

      I understand. But there are no practices. And sending him to the D league I believe would do more harm than good.

    63. Frank O.

      He’s still a much better mid- range shooter and penetrator than Shump. Shumpert has never been a good shooter

    64. Juany8

      Frank O.: Respectfully, I think you are overstating

      Perhaps you’re right, I just don’t see what Fields does that’s objectively “good” except shoot a decent TS%, which in this case totally ignores all the good looks he ruins by not shooting and then holding the ball (and not like JR holding the ball where something good might happen, Fields just stands there until someone can take the ball from him). And as hard as I’ve been on Lin for his defense, at least he’s smart and gets a fair amount of steals from reading the court, Fields just looks totally lost when he’s not guarding the ball (and almost no shooting guard in the league handles the ball most of the game, it’s usually the PG or “star”)

    65. Frank O.

      JK47:
      In this recent 8-1 streak Landry has only gotten more than 25 minutes once, in the first game of the Indiana home-and-away, a game the Knicks had put away by the third quarter.Woodson is quietly but unmistakably reducing Fields’ role on the team.

      This is true and u could see it coming.

    66. johnlocke

      While I agree that Fields is slumping and have posted comments explaining how/why in detail yesterday, no point in arguing about his role now with Jeffries, Amare, (Melo?) and Lin injured. We need all the bodies we have not named Mike Bibby and TDWTDD out on the floor for us. Once our players are healthy then we can get back to who should be starting and who should be on the bench….but for now Fields will be playing, so let’s just hope he really picks up all other aspects of his game until our other guys come back

      Frank O.: Respectfully, I think you are overstating

      Frank O.: Respectfully, I think you are overstating

    67. Brian Cronin

      You have a point there. WS/48 doesn’t count defense, but if it did, it probably wouldn’t make his score worse; he’s average on that end, too.

      WS/48 counts defense.

    68. TelegraphedPass

      Frank, my point as far as re-signing or not with Fields wasn’t me wishing to abandon him. I love what Fields was for the first half of last year. I love the chemistry he has with Jeremy. I love his hustle, which goes unrecognized in box scores but can be huge. And I do believe he can revert back to being a 3 point threat. Unlike Shump, for example, he was a threat from deep in college as well.

      My question was if NY ran out of room to sign both Fields and Earl and had to choose one: Who would we rather have? This obviously assumes JR is willing to return, which I see as unlikely but not as impossible as others here have intimated.

    69. Juany8

      Frank O.:
      He’s still a much better mid- range shooter and penetrator than Shump. Shumpert has never been a good shooter

      If he was really, really good at those 2 things then sure he could play. But he’s not, he’s mediocre and Shumpert is only slightly more mediocre. I’m really not arguing that Shumpert is a better offensive player, they’re both pretty crappy, although as Shumpert showed against the Bucks he is physically capable of hitting 3′s. When you add in the defense though, and the fact that Shump has a ton more upside so the team would benefit more from letting him work through his problems, it’s a pretty clear question of who should be getting the minutes. Even if this team is going to go all out to win instead of develop, I’d keep Shump around 23 minutes and give the rest to JR. He has shown beyond any reasonable doubt that he has been a good shooter in this league, he clearly has the best chance of being an impact offensive player, while still being a really good defender.

    70. Frank O.

      Juany8: Perhaps you’re right, I just don’t see what Fields does that’s objectively “good” except shoot a decent TS%, which in this case totally ignores all the good looks he ruins by not shooting and then holding the ball (and not like JR holding the ball where something good might happen, Fields just stands there until someone can take the ball from him). And as hard as I’ve been on Lin for his defense, at least he’s smart and gets a fair amount of steals from reading the court, Fields just looks totally lost when he’s not guarding the ball (and almost no shooting guard in the league handles the ball most of the game, it’s usually the PG or “star”)

      I struggle with this argument. I see the D’Antoni logic of taking the open shot where ever it is. But if you’re not a good 3 pt shooter and you find ways to be more effective, why the heck not?
      I am convinced that Shumpert should not shoot right now from 15 feet out. He’s much better at driving and getting fouled. He’s a fairly solid FT shooter.
      Landry is a better than average penetrator and he shoots pretty well 15 ft and in. Arguing that he should not pass on shots he’s not confident with makes no sense. When he penetrates a lot of good happens. His TOs are down and he gets a fair amount of assists.
      Again, he’s struggling, but if you start giving Shumpert 30 + mins his horrible shooting will be more exposed and I think his defensive intensity will suffer. There are minutes for both. Neither, IMHO, has a clear advantage and 15 games is a small sample size to draw any conclusions.

    71. Juany8

      Brian Cronin: WS/48 counts defense.

      It pretends to, I don’t remember how it’s formula works exactly but I know WP/48 assumes every single defender on a team contributed the same on defense. Yes that means that according to WP, Amar’e has produced as much defensive value as Chandler. Not sure if I’d call that “counting defense” except to make the math work out more nicely (which is literally the only reason he puts it in, don’t listen to Berri’s vague explanations) and I’m pretty sure WS does a similarly “team defense” thing with a few more calculations. Either way, WS and WP pretty much say that if Chandler and, say, Faried were both on this team with their similar stats (both have high TS%, high rebounds, and low TO’s) they would rate pretty much the same when you include defense. So I’d pretty much ignore anything WS says about defense

    72. Frank O.

      TelegraphedPass:
      Frank, my point as far as re-signing or not with Fields wasn’t me wishing to abandon him. I love what Fields was for the first half of last year. I love the chemistry he has with Jeremy. I love his hustle, which goes unrecognized in box scores but can be huge. And I do believe he can revert back to being a 3 point threat. Unlike Shump, for example, he was a threat from deep in college as well.

      My question was if NY ran out of room to sign both Fields and Earl and had to choose one: Who would we rather have? This obviously assumes JR is willing to return, which I see as unlikely but not as impossible as others here have intimated.

      I think fields is the better choice a) because he’ll be a bargain, b) because he has upside we have seen already and c) I think Smith will not stay and is a bit light on basketball IQ.

    73. SSS

      Frank: Re: whether or not we should sign Fields — he is not worth more than a biannual exception-level contract right now, and to be honest, if he keeps playing like this, he’s a minimum salary guy. We are going to be pretty close to the luxury tax line going forward, and every contract counts. If you look at his numbers, I doubt anyone else will offer him more than $2M/year – we shouldn’t either. If he comes in at that # then I think we sign him and hope that someone can fix his shot, and that he keeps making Lin happy with handshakes and whatnot. If he is above that, I’d honestly rather take a chance on finding someone with a minimum contract than have an over-market contract on Fields be the reason we can’t offer the full MLE in 13-14 or 14-15.

      But, if we don’t sign him, are we able to allocate the money elsewhere? It sounds like we’re already maxed out under the cap, so the option is either Fields or somebody at the minimum (assuming we use the MLE on Lin and the mini on someone else). Of course, it’d save Dolan Fields’ salary and maybe some luxury tax, but I don’t think anyone here is interested in saving Dolan money (and neither apparently is Dolan, his sole redeeming attribute.)

    74. SSS

      I hear you though if we offer Fields some sort of multi-year contract that hurts flexibility in 13-14 or 14-15.

    75. Juany8

      Frank O.: I struggle with this argument. I see the D’Antoni logic of taking the open shot where ever it is. But if you’re not a good 3 pt shooter and you find ways to be more effective, why the heck not?
      I am convinced that Shumpert should not shoot right now from 15 feet out. He’s much better at driving and getting fouled. He’s a fairly solid FT shooter.
      Landry is a better than average penetrator and he shoots pretty well 15 ft and in. Arguing that he should not pass on shots he’s not confident with makes no sense. When he penetrates a lot of good happens. His TOs are down and he gets a fair amount of assists.
      Again, he’s struggling, but if you start giving Shumpert 30 + mins his horrible shooting will be more exposed and I think his defensive intensity will suffer. There are minutes for both. Neither, IMHO, has a clear advantage and 15 games is a small sample size to draw any conclusions.

      Again, it’s not about saying that Shumpert will be a serious improvement offensively, both are crappy offensive players although I like Shumpert’s potential more. The defense though is a massive difference, and can’t simply be ignored because one player has a better TS% than the other. I mean Woodson could just tell Shumpert to never take a 3 and then he’d probably have the same TS% as Fields lol, if anyone thinks that would make Shumpert a better shooter though… I dunno that seems illogical to me. And again, if you’re going to have a no offense player playing, he better be a good defender. Fields is a shit defender, Shumpert is incredible, I really don’t see how that’s hard unless you need a make believe defensive TS% to pretend you’re making an objective choice.

    76. JK47

      Brian Cronin: WS/48 counts defense.

      WS/48 counts defense, but in a pretty primitive fashion. A player’s defensive Win Shares score is heavily influenced by who he shares the floor with, so there is a tremendous amount of noise in that stat. For instance, Jeremy Lin has a higher defensive WS/48 than Jared Jeffries, .076 to .071. That’s because Jeremy Lin has the benefit of often sharing court time with Tyson Chandler, which Jared Jeffries very rarely does.

    77. TelegraphedPass

      Frank O.: I think fields is the better choice a) because he’ll be a bargain, b) because he has upside we have seen already and c) I think Smith will not stay and is a bit light on basketball IQ.

      I can appreciate that. With JR you get somebody capable of creating off the dribble which is vastly useful, especially for a bench player. Fields has upside, but it’s hard to believe he’ll ever be the shooter Earl is and obviously will never be quite as athletic. JR’s IQ has been the issue his whole career, but he’s very clearly trying to control it and contribute as best he can for this team. I think I lean more towards Smith because of his historically superb outside shot. The man is an absolute sniper.

      I sincerely hope Fields would be a bargain, though. Coming off this stinker of a year, it would be disappointing for him to request a substantial contract.

    78. Juany8

      JK47: WS/48 counts defense, but in a pretty primitive fashion.A player’s defensive Win Shares score is heavily influenced by who he shares the floor with, so there is a tremendous amount of noise in that stat.For instance, Jeremy Lin has a higher defensive WS/48 than Jared Jeffries, .076 to .071.That’s because Jeremy Lin has the benefit of often sharing court time with Tyson Chandler, which Jared Jeffries very rarely does.

      Lol it’s not really about counting defense, it’s about putting in a statistical adjustment so that WS correlates better with total wins. They only added defense to sell the stat, not because anyone actually believes that’s a valid way of measuring defense (except maybe THCJ).

    79. Frank O.

      Juany8: Again, it’s not about saying that Shumpert will be a serious improvement offensively, both are crappy offensive players although I like Shumpert’s potential more. The defense though is a massive difference, and can’t simply be ignored because one player has a better TS% than the other. I mean Woodson could just tell Shumpert to never take a 3 and then he’d probably have the same TS% as Fields lol, if anyone thinks that would make Shumpert a better shooter though… I dunno that seems illogical to me. And again, if you’re going to have a no offense player playing, he better be a good defender. Fields is a shit defender, Shumpert is incredible, I really don’t see how that’s hard unless you need a make believe defensive TS% to pretend you’re making an objective choice.

      I think u undervalue the disruption fields causes on offense, his still-good board work and his defense, which can be very good to average. Certainly, he’s not Shump’s equal on defense, but some might say his struggles are that he’s a 6’7 dude sometimes guarding quick 6 to 6’4 guards.
      And with the amount of switching this team does, u can’t just look at what a 2 does and blame Fields. Those wide open threes are often team d breakdowns.

    80. Ben R

      A couple things on Fields:

      He is not a bad defender, maybe average but he is not bad at all. He is a good on ball defender and has gotten better chasing people around screens. Fields is averaging 1.6 steals per 36, which is good, and the Knicks are 2.2 pts better defensively with him on the court which is impressive because Shumpert and Smith are his backups.

      Fields has been averaging over 5 rebs, 3 assists and 1.5 steals per 36 which means his non scoring stats are very good. In fact he is one of only 9 players (minimum 200 minutes) to average at least 5 rebs, 3 asts and 1.5 stls per 36 this year.

      On top of that Fields is still shooting a TS% of over 51% (better than Melo, Smith, Shumpert, Jorts, Jeffries and Davis) despite obviously having serious problems with his shot. Fields’s shooting problems are most likely not permanent. Fields was a mediocre, not poor shooter in college (34.3% from 3, 67.6% from the line) and was good last year (39.3% from 3, 76.9% from the line). For those who are saying he is a liability on offense the Knicks are 4.9 points better with him the the court.

      Overall the Knicks outscore their opponents by an average of 4.3 points when he’s on the court and are outscored by 2.9 when he’s off. So for those who claim he is a net loss on the court are wrong.

      Overall Fields is struggling right now but anyone that thinks we should abandon a 2nd year player who is struggling with his shot, but still doing well in every other aspect of the game, and has shown himself to be a good NBA player in the past is completely wrong. Young players struggle and in a shortened season those struggles are magnified.

    81. Juany8

      SSS: But, if we don’t sign him, are we able to allocate the money elsewhere?It sounds like we’re already maxed out under the cap, so the option is either Fields or somebody at the minimum (assuming we use the MLE on Lin and the mini on someone else).Of course, it’d save Dolan Fields’ salary and maybe some luxury tax, but I don’t think anyone here is interested in saving Dolan money (and neither apparently is Dolan, his sole redeeming attribute.)

      At some point when you get over the Luxury tax I think you lose the full Mid level, plus spending a few years over the tax might be too much for even Dolan to put up with. Under the old system, Dolan always had that going for him, Knicks fans have never known what it’s like to give up on a player because the owner isn’t willing to pay (Seriously switch Dolan and Sarver and the Suns might have won a championship the past decade). Being a Rockets fan has been pretty awful lately, but having an owner willing to spend AND willing to give a good gm complete control is pretty great

    82. Frank O.

      I’m not trying to be a Fields apologist. He’s had some rough outings. But I think people put on rose colored glasses for dudes they like and go to town on others, sometimes unjustly.
      Reality check: the team is 8-1 with this particular balance at the 2. The all phrase comes to mind: if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

    83. Frank O.

      Ben R:
      A couple things on Fields:

      He is not a bad defender, maybe average but he is not bad at all. He is a good on ball defender and has gotten better chasing people around screens. Fields is averaging 1.6 steals per 36, which is good, and the Knicks are 2.2 pts better defensively with him on the court which is impressive because Shumpert and Smith are his backups.

      Fields has been averaging over 5 rebs, 3 assists and 1.5 steals per 36 which means his non scoring stats are very good. In fact he is one of only 9 players (minimum 200 minutes) to average at least 5 rebs, 3 asts and 1.5 stls per 36 this year.

      On top of that Fields is still shooting a TS% of over 51% (better than Melo, Smith, Shumpert, Jorts, Jeffries and Davis) despite obviously having serious problems with his shot. Fields’s shooting problems are most likely not permanent. Fields was a mediocre, not poor shooter in college (34.3% from 3, 67.6% from the line) and was good last year (39.3% from 3, 76.9% from the line). For those who are saying he is a liability on offense the Knicks are 4.9 points better with him the the court.

      Overall the Knicks outscore their opponents by an average of 4.3 points when he’s on the court and are outscored by 2.9 when he’s off. So for those who claim he is a net loss on the court are wrong.

      Overall Fields is struggling right now but anyone that thinks we should abandon a 2nd year player who is struggling with his shot, but still doing well in every other aspect of the game, and has shown himself to be a good NBA player in the past is completely wrong. Young players struggle and in a shortened season those struggles are magnified.

      I posted some sim numbers from 82games.com a few weeks ago when people were trashing Fields and elevating Shump. I just think some of this boils down to taste. I love Shump because he’s an A+ defender. But…

    84. Juany8

      Frank O.: I think u undervalue the disruption fields causes on offense, his still-good board work and his defense, which can be very good to average. Certainly, he’s not Shump’s equal on defense, but some might say his struggles are that he’s a 6’7 dude sometimes guarding quick 6 to 6’4 guards.
      And with the amount of switching this team does, u can’t just look at what a 2 does and blame Fields. Those wide open threes are often team d breakdowns.

      A lot of what you’re saying about Fields is almost making excuses. If he’s too slow to be guarding smaller guys on the perimeter, maybe he shouldn’t be playing there? Besides this entire team is disruptive on defense and causes a lot of turnovers, and Fields is nowhere near as good as Shump at running around screens or playing one on one defense, and the best part is he can guard both 1′s and 2′s so D-Rose/D-Wade won’t be tearing Lin/Fields apart in the playoffs. Plus this team desperately needs shooting so JR should really be getting most of the minutes, he’s unquestionably been a good offensive player for more than a 40 game stretch as a 5th option lol. At some point if the main argument you can make for a guy is that he has a high enough IQ to know that he’s a bad offensive player and that he’s a nice guy, he probably shouldn’t be getting serious minutes in the NBA, much less starting on a team trying to make the playoffs.

    85. Eternal OptiKnist

      Frank O.: He’s still a much better mid- range shooter and penetrator than Shump. Shumpert has never been a good shooter

      Not advocating chucking, but while shump has never proved any long-term good shooting ability, he isn’t afraid the way fields is. The unproductive fake at the 3-pt line (when open) almost always gets us nowhere but deeper into the shot clock.

    86. Juany8

      Frank O.:
      I’m not trying to be a Fields apologist. He’s had some rough outings. But I think people put on rose colored glasses for dudes they like and go to town on others, sometimes unjustly.
      Reality check: the team is 8-1 with this particular balance at the 2. The all phrase comes to mind: if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

      As someone said earlier, this team is 8-1 playing Fields less and less minutes each game. He never finishes games anymore, so at the very least it’s clear who Woodson thinks his top 2 guards are. The Knicks know he’s their worst player when healthy, I’m just arguing they should just go ahead and cut the rest of his minutes. The other starting 2′s in the league that only come in for a few minutes each half are all known as good defenders (DeShawn Stevenson and Keith Bogans last year, Sefalosha this year). Fields is, at best, a decent on ball defender in a league where most 2 guards run around screens, his biggest defensive weakness.

    87. Frank O.

      Juany8: A lot of what you’re saying about Fields is almost making excuses. If he’s too slow to be guarding smaller guys on the perimeter, maybe he shouldn’t be playing there? Besides this entire team is disruptive on defense and causes a lot of turnovers, and Fields is nowhere near as good as Shump at running around screens or playing one on one defense, and the best part is he can guard both 1?s and 2?s so D-Rose/D-Wade won’t be tearing Lin/Fields apart in the playoffs. Plus this team desperately needs shooting so JR should really be getting most of the minutes, he’s unquestionably been a good offensive player for more than a 40 game stretch as a 5th option lol. At some point if the main argument you can make for a guy is that he has a high enough IQ to know that he’s a bad offensive player and that he’s a nice guy, he probably shouldn’t be getting serious minutes in the NBA, much less starting on a team trying to make the playoffs.

      See Ben R’s post. I dropped something similar a few weeks back. You’re understating Fields value. I say he’s average to good defender. The numbers +- reflect that contention.

    88. JK47

      Overall the Knicks outscore their opponents by an average of 4.3 points when he’s on the court and are outscored by 2.9 when he’s off. So for those who claim he is a net loss on the court are wrong.

      Beware the folly of +/- numbers. The team is outscored by 6.6 when Tyson Chandler is off the court and -0.9 when he’s on the court. Is Tyson Chandler a net negative for us?

    89. Caleb

      TelegraphedPass:
      @Caleb Hmmm. I wonder why he even included a player option in his deal to begin with. Insurance against injury maybe? He said earlier that he plans on excercising his option. I would be sad to see him go. What he does is difficult to replace.

      Just a little insurance policy – what if he got hurt, or MDA never played him, or he spent this season in jail?

      I hope he comes back but he would probably be making the kind of financial sacrifice that players never make, or almost never. If the upside is maybe getting the knicks MLE in 2013, or get a multi-year MLE right now (like in Orlando), what would YOU do?

    90. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: As someone said earlier, this team is 8-1 playing Fields less and less minutes each game. He never finishes games anymore, so at the very least it’s clear who Woodson thinks his top 2 guards are. The Knicks know he’s their worst player when healthy, I’m just arguing they should just go ahead and cut the rest of his minutes. The other starting 2?s in the league that only come in for a few minutes each half are all known as good defenders (DeShawn Stevenson and Keith Bogans last year, Sefalosha this year). Fields is, at best, a decent on ball defender in a league where most 2 guards run around screens, his biggest defensive weakness.

      I agree that Shumpert is better suited to what this team needs, specially when Amare is healthy (defense is far more important in that 2-spot with our full lineup and Fields can’t shoot the 3 pointer either, so both won’t help on this particular part of the game).

      but really, the way J.R Smith is chucking bad shots right now, Fields deserves to get some minutes here and there… the optimal solution for me would be to start Shumpert, have Fields come off the bench on the 3 spot together with Baron, J.R, Novak and Jeffries… that would be a very balanced lineup, with scoring, 3pt shooting, nice defense and Fields would be able to move off the ball well with Baron feeding him, and rebound, which he does pretty well for his size.

      he has definitely shown, for me, that he isn’t a starter in the NBA, but he is nonetheless a pretty useful bench player.

    91. Caleb

      Doug: Frank, do you think Gallo and Chandler would be worth keeping if we signed them to the same deals Denver did?

      That’s just asking, would you trade Melo straight up for Gallo and Chandler?

      I am sure we will have this 500-comment thread, around May.

    92. Frank O.

      Juany8: As someone said earlier, this team is 8-1 playing Fields less and less minutes each game. He never finishes games anymore, so at the very least it’s clear who Woodson thinks his top 2 guards are. The Knicks know he’s their worst player when healthy, I’m just arguing they should just go ahead and cut the rest of his minutes. The other starting 2?s in the league that only come in for a few minutes each half are all known as good defenders (DeShawn Stevenson and Keith Bogans last year, Sefalosha this year). Fields is, at best, a decent on ball defender in a league where most 2 guards run around screens, his biggest defensive weakness.

      Based on minutes fields and Shump are about equal and smith is begin them. You’re overplaying the differences

    93. Caleb

      max fisher-cohen:
      Re: winning tonight

      Orlando lives and dies by the 3. Because 3s are so high variance, some nights they can beat anyone, and other nights they can lose to anyone. Some of that has to do with our defense, but a lot of it is luck.

      Gallinari, definitely. Wilson, possibly (health issues make the deal questionable).

      Orlando has a +2.4 point differential on the season and the Knicks have a +2.3 differential. Plus we’re playing our best ball of the year, and we’re at home. If we had a full roster, it wouldn’t take an upset… but Baron will have to step it up, and Melo or JR will have to score.

    94. Juany8

      JK47:
      Overall the Knicks outscore their opponents by an average of 4.3 points when he’s on the court and are outscored by 2.9 when he’s off. So for those who claim he is a net loss on the court are wrong.

      Beware the folly of +/- numbers.The team is outscored by 6.6 when Tyson Chandler is off the court and -0.9 when he’s on the court.Is Tyson Chandler a net negative for us?

      Not to mention that Fields plays almost every minute he’s out there with Melo, Lin, Stoudemire, and Chandler. Or the fact that the team has gone through so many changes throughout the year that looking at season +/- numbers at this point is pretty meaningless. Do any of the numbers pre-Lin mean anything? What about pre-Woodson? Those aren’t “arbitrary end points”, those are real, significant changes to the make up of this team.

    95. Frank O.

      TelegraphedPass: Define?

      See Ben R’s note above. fields is on of the few guys posting boards, steals, and assists. And his TS is considerably higher than Shump’s. Shump is a very good defender and is across the board not good on offense.

    96. JK47

      JK47:
      Overall the Knicks outscore their opponents by an average of 4.3 points when he’s on the court and are outscored by 2.9 when he’s off. So for those who claim he is a net loss on the court are wrong.

      Beware the folly of +/- numbers.The team is outscored by 6.6 when Tyson Chandler is off the court and -0.9 when he’s on the court.Is Tyson Chandler a net negative for us?

      I said that completely wrong. Let me try again: the Knicks outscore opponents by 6.6 points when Tyson Chandler is OFF the court. They are outscored by 0.9 points when he is ON the court. But my point is the same: +/- numbers are heavily context-dependent.

    97. Caleb

      Juany8: Perhaps you’re right, I just don’t see what Fields does that’s objectively “good” except shoot a decent TS%, which in this case totally ignores all the good looks he ruins by not shooting and then holding the ball (and not like JR holding the ball where something good might happen, Fields just stands there until someone can take the ball from him). And as hard as I’ve been on Lin for his defense, at least he’s smart and gets a fair amount of steals from reading the court, Fields just looks totally lost when he’s not guarding the ball (and almost no shooting guard in the league handles the ball most of the game, it’s usually the PG or “star”)

      As I said earlier he is being outplayed by our other 2-guards and I don’t have a problem with sitting him until he can shoot again, but you can’t say he does nothing well – he led NBA 2-guards in rebounding last year, and is in the top third this year, too… also in the top third in assist percentage.. he’s a good passer and rebounder.

    98. Brian Cronin

      That’s just asking, would you trade Melo straight up for Gallo and Chandler?

      Yeah, we do not need that conversation. Count me out of that one!

    99. Bruno Almeida

      Caleb: That’s just asking, would you trade Melo straight up for Gallo and Chandler?

      I am sure we will have this 500-comment thread, around May.

      I would.

      Gallo would have insane numbers right now if he was shooting the 3 like he did throughout his career (he’s too talented to be a 31% 3pt shooter)… and Will has been playing pretty well on the games I watched, even though he’s still struggling with his shot (kinda the same thing that happened with J.R and would probably happen to any guy who went to China, got used to jacking up 1 billion shots against terrible opposition, and then came back and was thrown into the fire against NBA teams).

    100. Ben R

      Woodson isn’t cutting Fields’s minutes he is waiting out his slump. My bet is once Fields puts it together again, like he was playing right before and during linsanity then Fields will see his minutes bump up.

      Fields is a better offensive player than Shump and this year actually better than Smith.

      Overall shooting stats this year:
      ———EFG%—–TS%
      Fields – 49.7% — 51.8%
      Shump – 42.4% – 46.2%
      Smith – 44.7% — 46.9%

      I like Shumpert but anyone who doesn’t think he is a complete mess offensively is not watching the same games I am. Also I too do not understand the line of thinking that Shumpert will “figure out” his offensive game and shot next year while Fields won’t. Fields was efficient last year and in college and is more efficient this year. Shumpert wasn’t in the NBA last year, was inefficient in college and is inefficient now. There is no evidence that Shumpert will ever be an efficient player in the NBA.

    101. Juany8

      Caleb: Orlando has a +2.4 point differential on the season and the Knicks have a +2.3 differential. Plus we’re playing our best ball of the year, and we’re at home. If we had a full roster, it wouldn’t take an upset… but Baron will have to step it up, and Melo or JR will have to score.

      We might even be better off if we has just Jeffries instead of Stoudemire, Stoudemire might the the worst guy to put on Ryan Anderson in the league, while Jeffries would kill him. Considering the ridiculous fouls Jorts tend to make, Orlando is just not a great matchup for this team right now

    102. Frank O.

      Eternal OptiKnist: Not advocating chucking, but while shump has never proved any long-term good shooting ability, he isn’t afraid the way fields is.The unproductive fake at the 3-pt line (when open) almost always gets us nowhere but deeper into the shot clock.

      This is crap, man. He’s unafraid but takes stupid shots? How about he’s unafraid and takes smarter shots…that would be fields. Look, go to 82games.com. Look at Fields plus
      Minus on defense and offense. See how efficient he is offensive v. Shump and Smith. See their plus minus offensively, then try to make your arguments. I keep addressing unsubstantiated arguments that are based on tastes

    103. Frank O.

      Ben R:
      Woodson isn’t cutting Fields’s minutes he is waiting out his slump. My bet is once Fields puts it together again, like he was playing right before and during linsanity then Fields will see his minutes bump up.

      Fields is a better offensive player than Shump and this year actually better than Smith.

      Overall shooting stats this year:
      ———EFG%—–TS%
      Fields – 49.7% — 51.8%
      Shump – 42.4% – 46.2%
      Smith – 44.7% — 46.9%

      I like Shumpert but anyone who doesn’t think he is a complete mess offensively is not watching the same games I am. Also I too do not understand the line of thinking that Shumpert will “figure out” his offensive game and shot next year while Fields won’t. Fields was efficient last year and in college and is more efficient this year. Shumpert wasn’t in the NBA last year, was inefficient in college and is inefficient now. There is no evidence that Shumpert will ever be an efficient player in the NBA.

      Thanks for this. I’m in a train station trying to do this via iPhone. I can’t agree more with this. I did this comparison a few weeks back also, sans Smith.

    104. Juany8

      Ben R:
      Woodson isn’t cutting Fields’s minutes he is waiting out his slump. My bet is once Fields puts it together again, like he was playing right before and during linsanity then Fields will see his minutes bump up.

      Fields is a better offensive player than Shump and this year actually better than Smith.

      Overall shooting stats this year:
      ———EFG%—–TS%
      Fields – 49.7% — 51.8%
      Shump – 42.4% – 46.2%
      Smith – 44.7% — 46.9%

      I like Shumpert but anyone who doesn’t think he is a complete mess offensively is not watching the same games I am. Also I too do not understand the line of thinking that Shumpert will “figure out” his offensive game and shot next year while Fields won’t. Fields was efficient last year and in college and is more efficient this year. Shumpert wasn’t in the NBA last year, was inefficient in college and is inefficient now. There is no evidence that Shumpert will ever be an efficient player in the NBA.

      There is also no evidence that offensive value can be boiled down to who makes the higher percentage of the shots he takes, regardless of context. Again, they are both crap offensively right now, although I would take someone who isn’t afraid to shoot a 3 over someone who is generally. Regardless, even if Fields is a slightly better offensive player there is a gulf of difference in their defensive ability that Fields would have trouble making up for even if he started shooting like last year. Just because there isn’t a tidy stat for defensive efficiency like TS% does not mean that side of the ball should be ignored, so unless Fields starts becoming a legitimately good offensive player instead of the guy on the team who passes up good looks more than the other 2 guards (which is an excellent way to bump up TS% coincidentally), Shumpert and JR should play for defense alone

    105. jon abbey

      D’Antoni had been benching Fields down the stretch too, that’s not a new thing with Woodson.

      “Efficiency” is another thing that I think has become really overrated with the advent of “advanced” basketball stats, and especially on a team that has been playing defense like these Knicks.

    106. JK47

      With Josh Harrellson on the court, the Knicks are +10.6 points.
      With Josh Harrellson off the court, the Knicks are -0.4 points.

      With Tyson Chandler on the court, the Knicks are -0.9 points.
      With Tyson Chandler off the court, the Knicks are +6.6 points.

      Is plus/minus a meaningless statistic? Yes.

    107. jon abbey

      Frank O.: Thanks for this. I’m in a train station trying to do this via iPhone. I can’t agree more with this. I did this comparison a few weeks back also, sans Smith.

      and I couldn’t agree less, but we’ve been through this endlessly already. thankfully at least Juany8 gets it, and most importantly, Woodson does also.

    108. Eternal OptiKnist

      Frank O.: This is crap, man. He’s unafraid but takes stupid shots? How about he’s unafraid and takes smarter shots…that would be fields. Look, go to 82games.com. Look at Fields plusMinus on defense and offense. See how efficient he is offensive v. Shump and Smith. See their plus minus offensively, then try to make your arguments. I keep addressing unsubstantiated arguments that are based on tastes

      What does that mean, based on “tastes”? I’m not citing data, pal..that much is true, but i’m not biased towards any one player…i actually like Fields so if i was biased, it would be toward him. The guy has clearly lost confidence in his shot as evidenced passing on the open 3. It happens all the time, he fakes the three and it gets us nowhere but deeper into the shotclock. Call it unsubstantiated, but its what i see. If he does get into the paint with that move, its early in the game..he shrinks as the game goes on. Worse yet, is that he cant hit freethrows anymore when he gets fouled going to the hoop. Its always a guaranteed 1 of 2 with him now. Shump has seemed to make big plays/hit big shots late in the game lately as far as i can tell.

    109. jon abbey

      JK47:
      With Josh Harrellson on the court, the Knicks are +10.6 points.
      With Josh Harrellson off the court, the Knicks are -0.4 points.

      With Tyson Chandler on the court, the Knicks are -0.9 points.
      With Tyson Chandler off the court, the Knicks are +6.6 points.

      Is plus/minus a meaningless statistic?Yes.

      like most stats, flawed but not meaningless.

    110. jon abbey

      I mean, if you can’t see that two equal teams playing against each other, one with Fields and one with Shump, each playing 35 minutes, the team with Shump would win by 10-15 every time, I don’t know what to tell you. look at Monta Ellis’ numbers against us and then the next night against ATL. anecdotal, sure, but it’s a shame when even a good chunk of a team’s fans can’t see what’s happening on the court.

    111. Frank O.

      jon abbey:
      D’Antoni had been benching Fields down the stretch too, that’s not a new thing with Woodson.

      “Efficiency” is another thing that I think has become really overrated with the advent of “advanced” basketball stats, and especially on a team that has been playing defense like these Knicks.

      The reason the Knicks are going more with defense down the stretch is because defense is winning and our star scorers, Melo, Smith, and Lin even, have struggles to score efficiently. That places the onus in defense an as has been acknowledged Shump is a very good defender. It’s circumstantial.
      I think efficiency has it’s place. More importantly, inefficiency has no place. It kills teams down the stretch.

    112. jon abbey

      Frank O.:
      I think efficiency has it’s place. More importantly, inefficiency has no place. It kills teams down the stretch.

      Smith and Shumpert carried the NY offense in the 4th against Milwaukee the other night (15 of their 19 points pre-garbage time), inefficient and all. if you can hold the other team to 28 in the second half, efficiency on offense matters a lot less.

    113. Frank O.

      jon abbey:
      I mean, if you can’t see that two equal teams playing against each other, one with Fields and one with Shump, each playing 35 minutes, the team with Shump would win by 10-15 every time, I don’t know what to tell you. look at Monta Ellis’ numbers against us and then the next night against ATL. anecdotal, sure, but it’s a shame when even a good chunk of a team’s fans can’t see what’s happening on the court.

      I seem to recall Shump having a particularly awful night when chandler was back there to deter penetration. As you rely heavily on eyeballs, my eyeballs saw shump struggle. Small sample, but it was telling. No guard is a “good defender” without center support, as we’ve seen BC (before Chandler). I think chandler makes everyone a lot better. I don’t see the difference being that great between Shump and fields holistically. Shump is a defensive gambler with great hands, but chandler covers mistakes. And beyond defense Shump is a mess. We disagree on this. Your argument is based on what you see. I respect that.

    114. Juany8

      Frank O.: This is crap, man. He’s unafraid but takes stupid shots? How about he’s unafraid and takes smarter shots…that would be fields. Look, go to 82games.com. Look at Fields plus
      Minus on defense and offense. See how efficient he is offensive v. Shump and Smith. See their plus minus offensively, then try to make your arguments. I keep addressing unsubstantiated arguments that are based on tastes

      Well then here are the statistics to prove my point!

      http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Iman%20Shumpert

      http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Landry%20Fields

      Towards the bottom of the page you’ll see the shooting stats from each area, which are quite revealing. Shumpert is only a worse shooter than Fields from mid range areas, he’s virtually the same at the rim and from 3, and Shumpert has a much, much lower percentage of his baskets assisted than Fields does, so he’s doing more of the work to create the shot. Looking at some of his other stats, Fields gets 1 more rebound than Shumpert but less assists, and they both get a similar number of turnovers, which is kind of sad since Fields is only scoring when someone sets him up while Shumpert is actually setting himself up, as well as his teammates. When you consider JR has multiple years in the league blowing both of these guys in the water, I don’t see how JR and Shump aren’t better players in virtually every way except maybe basketball IQ, although let’s not call a player that can’t get around a screen high IQ just because he went to Stanford.

    115. Frank O.

      jon abbey: Smith and Shumpert carried the NY offense in the 4th against Milwaukee the other night (15 of their 19 points pre-garbage time), inefficient and all. if you can hold the other team to 28 in the second half, efficiency on offense matters a lot less.

      Shump has always been a poor scorer. As of now, his good offensive nights are anomalous. Clearly, your point on defense is well taken. This particular team needs great defense to win as their key scorers have struggled. That has elevated Shump’s importance. I think Shump and fields are a solid combo guard together. Smith has been a disaster offensively since after his first game; I admire tht he is working hard on D, however. TD’s game completely fell off when he couldn’t hit the ocean

    116. The Infamous Cdiggy

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      …And yeah, Fields hasn’t been as good as he has been in the past. Still an NBA-caliber player, but his 3 point shooting is really sinking him. He’s Josh Smith bad.

      Woodson says he can’t play Braon more than 30 minutes. I doubt whether he’ll return to full game-shape this season, either from rust or age – take your pick. The best you hope for is for Baron play well in spurts and that those spurts will be more vintage as the playoffs come.’

      As for poor Landry, I agree with you. Fixing that outside J should be Top Priority A, B and C this summer. I look at Fields this way: on a good/contending team, he’s ideally the first SF off the bench. If he fixes his jumper, he can be a situational starter in the NBA (the SF who can slash, make hustle plays(rebounding), cut backdoor and *IMPORTANT* hit the kick-out 3 on good passing teams).

    117. Frank O.

      Frank O.: I seem to recall Shump having a particularly awful night when chandler was back there to deter penetration. As you rely heavily on eyeballs, my eyeballs saw shump struggle. Small sample, but it was telling. No guard is a “good defender” without center support, as we’ve seen BC (before Chandler). I think chandler makes everyone a lot better. I don’t see the difference being that great between Shump and fields holistically. Shump is a defensive gambler with great hands, but chandler covers mistakes. And beyond defense Shump is a mess. We disagree on this. Your argument is based on what you see. I respect that.

      Fucking IPhone. Was not back there

    118. Frank O.

      Juany8: Well then here are the statistics to prove my point!

      http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Iman%20Shumpert

      http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Landry%20Fields

      Towards the bottom of the page you’ll see the shooting stats from each area, which are quite revealing. Shumpert is only a worse shooter than Fields from mid range areas, he’s virtually the same at the rim and from 3, and Shumpert has a much, much lower percentage of his baskets assisted than Fields does, so he’s doing more of the work to create the shot. Looking at some of his other stats, Fields gets 1 more rebound than Shumpert but less assists, and they both get a similar number of turnovers, which is kind of sad since Fields is only scoring when someone sets him up while Shumpert is actually setting himself up, as well as his teammates. When you consider JR has multiple years in the league blowing both of these guys in the water, I don’t see how JR and Shump aren’t better players in virtually every way except maybe basketball IQ, although let’s not call a player that can’t get around a screen high IQ just because he went to Stanford.

      Shump’s assists are higher because he played a Lot of point. He’s not assisted as much because he is a ball handler more often. That’s understandable.
      And the majority of a 2 guards shots are the midrange, so it’s pretty important to make that shot. And it’s one of the reasons field’s fake from three is still respected.

      Look, I am trying hard not to trash Shump or Smith. I like both guys. What I object to, and statistically my arguments bear out as well as my eyeball consideration, is the trashing of Fields. Different young players who bring…

    119. hoolahoop

      Fields is a good rotation player that does a lot without the ball, and doesn’t need the ball.
      However, there’s absolutely no excuse for a player like him to not be a better free throw shooter.

    120. art vandelay

      Something to keep in mind for tonight´s game:

      The Knicks are 23rd in the NBA in opponent three-point shooting, allowing 30.4 percent. Under Woodson, they are yielding an even worse rate: 31.3 percent. This could be a lethal mix.

    121. Juany8

      Frank O.: Shump’s assists are higher because he played a Lot of point. He’s not assisted as much because he is a ball handler more often. That’s understandable.
      And the majority of a 2 guards shots are the midrange, so it’s pretty important to make that shot. And it’s one of the reasons field’s fake from three is still respected.

      Look, I am trying hard not to trash Shump or Smith. I like both guys. What I object to, and statistically my arguments bear out as well as my eyeball consideration, is the trashing of Fields. Different young players who bring…

      Right he played more at the point and handles the ball more because he is more skilled at those things, both of which are important offensive skill points. I object to your statement that Fields is good essentially because he has a higher TS% than Shumpert, even though I have repeteadly said the defense is what makes him special. They both suck on offense, Fields MIGHT suck a little less, but it’s not a notable difference like you make it out to be. Shump on the other hand, has a notable defensive advantage over almost everyone in the league. It’s not about deciding who’s better at a skill both players lack (neither is currently an offensive starter in this league) it’s about realizing that we have a player with an elite skill on our team, and since the other player in question doesn’t have any game changing skills and has many of the same weaknesses, I’d go ahead and give all his minutes to players that can be game changers on a nightly basis.

    122. Frank O.

      hoolahoop:
      Fields is a good rotation player that does a lot without the ball, and doesn’t need the ball.
      However, there’s absolutely no excuse for a player like him to not be a better free throw shooter.

      Yep

    123. Nick C.

      On the Fields passing up looks point, as I understand it that is good because why shoot a shot you suck at. The bad is 1) if you don’t take it no one will bother to guard you so it mucks up spacing, I’m meh on that, 2) you dawdle around and then the person you pass it to has 3, 4, 5 7 seconds to do something; or the flow of the possession or specific play was to get an open shot from that area and the shot happened to be for you by passing it up the offense has to reboot with limited (or at least less) time on the clock. What else, including possibly everything, am I missing?

    124. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Frank O.:
      …All this talk of not signing Fields is bullshit. You know he can play in this league. You have seen it. But he’s a sophomore pro. We all need to be patient with him. It will be rewarded, IMHO.
      The Knicks’ depth will be a blessing for their young core of Lin, Shumpert, Fields, Harrelson, and others. The future is way brighter than I think anyone could have expected after the Melo trade gutted the Knicks starting youth.

      Sound points, if only because Fields deserves another summer to improve. I’ve said in past posts that if Shump-Shump and Fields can improve their Js and their driving ability, they can really upgrade the backcourt next season. Fields, the cerebral cutter/slasher/hustler will benefit from opponents having to respect his J. Shump-Shump – I know some people tossed out the DWade comparison, but someone else hit it on the head with comparing his ceiling to Eddie Jones, who was a pretty damn good 2-way player. Plus I believe that it’s been proven that athletic take-it-to-the-rim guys with spotty jumpshots can improve their Js over time.

      If both improve accordingly, I think you’d have to give the starting 2 spot to Shump.

    125. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Juany8:
      Why are people so nice to one of the worst starters in the NBA. Fields is by far the Knicks worst player on both ends of the court (if Shumpert decided to start being an ass and passing up WIDE open shots to raise some reductionistic individual statistic I’d be calling for him to sit down too) If your starting two guard cannot make jumpers or free throws, he better be Ronnie Brewer on defense (note that even Brewer doesn’t start) not the worst defender on a team with Novak, Lin, and Amar’e taking serious minutes. There is nothing Fields does better than Shump or JR except run into opposing screeners like they’re fucking brick walls. Oh and of course holding the ball for 5 seconds when he’s kicked out to with no one within 10 ft, only to force Lin/JR/Melo to jack up a shot against the shot clock.

      This is why he ABSOLUTELY needs to fix his jumper this summer. He needs it to accentuate his other under-the-radar skills. His defense hurts, yes. But he hurts the Knicks even worse by not being about to nail a kick-out 3.

    126. Frank O.

      Juany8: Right he played more at the point and handles the ball more because he is more skilled at those things, both of which are important offensive skill points. I object to your statement that Fields is good essentially because he has a higher TS% than Shumpert, even though I have repeteadly said the defense is what makes him special. They both suck on offense, Fields MIGHT suck a little less, but it’s not a notable difference like you make it out to be. Shump on the other hand, has a notable defensive advantage over almost everyone in the league. It’s not about deciding who’s better at a skill both players lack (neither is currently an offensive starter in this league) it’s about realizing that we have a player with an elite skill on our team, and since the other player in question doesn’t have any game changing skills and has many of the same weaknesses, I’d go ahead and give all his minutes to players that can be game changers on a nightly basis.

      Well, that is an impasse then because I believe TS% and eFG% are important factors – as do many teams these days, I might add – and Fields has a distinct advantage there. I wish there were better measures for defensive play. I think Shump is a good young guard; I think Fields also is a good young guard who brings a lot to the team.
      I find it hard to argue strongly against Shump because I like him, despite the flaws I see in his game. I also like Landry despite his flaws. I just don’t think it’s as clear cut as you and abbey do.

    127. Frank O.

      The Infamous Cdiggy: Sound points, if only because Fields deserves another summer to improve.I’ve said in past posts that if Shump-Shump and Fields can improve their Js and their driving ability, they can really upgrade the backcourt next season.Fields, the cerebral cutter/slasher/hustler will benefit from opponents having to respect his J.Shump-Shump – I know some people tossed out the DWade comparison, but someone else hit it on the head with comparing his ceiling to Eddie Jones, who was a pretty damn good 2-way player.Plus I believe that it’s been proven that athletic take-it-to-the-rim guys with spotty jumpshots can improve their Js over time.

      If both improve accordingly, I think you’d have to give the starting 2 spot to Shump.

      I respect that

    128. The Infamous Cdiggy

      steveoh:
      I forgot about Melo. If you punt with Lin, you might as well punt with Melo and his groin tonight too.

      I think if this was last month or if the Knicks had a few more W’s in their pocket (with better playoff positioning), they would.

    129. Frank O.

      jon abbey: and I couldn’t agree less, but we’ve been through this endlessly already. thankfully at least Juany8 gets it, and most importantly, Woodson does also.

      jon abbey: and I couldn’t agree less, but we’ve been through this endlessly already. thankfully at least Juany8 gets it, and most importantly, Woodson does also.

      If you think something has been decided by Woodson visa vis Fields and Shump your mistaken, Fencer. ;)
      I seem to see Woodson doing a fair amount of balling out of both the young bucks. Shump learning to become more than a defensive player is a steep climb given he’s never been one anywhere. Fields has already shown himself to be a sound defender, at times one of the best rebounding 2s in the game and a high efficiency scorer. We know this because he’s done it.
      Don’t count your hits before the light flashes.

    130. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Bruno Almeida: I agree that Shumpert is better suited to what this team needs, specially when Amare is healthy (defense is far more important in that 2-spot with our full lineup and Fields can’t shoot the 3 pointer either, so both won’t help on this particular part of the game).

      but really, the way J.R Smith is chucking bad shots right now, Fields deserves to get some minutes here and there… the optimal solution for me would be to start Shumpert, have Fields come off the bench on the 3 spot together with Baron, J.R, Novak and Jeffries… that would be a very balanced lineup, with scoring, 3pt shooting, nice defense and Fields would be able to move off the ball well with Baron feeding him, and rebound, which he does pretty well for his size.

      he has definitely shown, for me, that he isn’t a starter in the NBA, but he is nonetheless a pretty useful bench player.

      cosigned 100%

    131. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Ben R:
      Woodson isn’t cutting Fields’s minutes he is waiting out his slump. My bet is once Fields puts it together again, like he was playing right before and during linsanity then Fields will see his minutes bump up.

      Fields is a better offensive player than Shump and this year actually better than Smith.

      Overall shooting stats this year:
      ———EFG%—–TS%
      Fields – 49.7% — 51.8%
      Shump – 42.4% – 46.2%
      Smith – 44.7% — 46.9%

      I like Shumpert but anyone who doesn’t think he is a complete mess offensively is not watching the same games I am. Also I too do not understand the line of thinking that Shumpert will “figure out” his offensive game and shot next year while Fields won’t. Fields was efficient last year and in college and is more efficient this year. Shumpert wasn’t in the NBA last year, was inefficient in college and is inefficient now. There is no evidence that Shumpert will ever be an efficient player in the NBA.

      The truth is, I’d like BOTH of them to figure out their offensive games, or at least make significant improvements over the summer.

    132. JK47

      Of course Fields is a useful player. As a 20 minutes per game depth guy, he’s fine. If he’s out there for 35 minutes every night, it’s harder to hide his weaknesses.

    133. Frank

      I think when we are citing stats we need to take into account trends through the season. I couldn’t care less what someone did in January if they obviously suck right now. This is a short season so the SSS arguments will always be available, but look at this:

      Landry Fields TS%/EFG by month:
      Dec: 55.1 / 53.8
      Jan: 53.9 / 50.8
      Feb: 51.7 / 50.4
      March 47.6 / 45.5
      Last 10 games: 43.9 / 39.8

      Shumper TS/EFG by month
      Dec: 36.2 / 23.1 (1 game)
      Jan: 44.7 / 41.9
      Feb: 47.2 / 43.3
      Mar: 50.2 / 46.2
      Last 10: 49.5 / 45

      Call me crazy, but who would you expect to be more efficient in April?

      Landry Fields’ shooting numbers as a graph: \
      Shumpert’s shooting numbers as a graph: /

      What’s worse is that it’s not like Fields’ shots are JUUUUST missing -he is missing by 3 pointers by FEET and is hitting the bottom of the rim on free throws. He has a huge confidence problem and it is infecting his whole game. I have no numbers to show this, but I would wager that his numbers shooting on the move (ie. as opposed to spot-up) are much higher because he has no time to mess up his mechanics.

    134. The Infamous Cdiggy

      jon abbey:
      I mean, if you can’t see that two equal teams playing against each other, one with Fields and one with Shump, each playing 35 minutes, the team with Shump would win by 10-15 every time, I don’t know what to tell you. look at Monta Ellis’ numbers against us and then the next night against ATL. anecdotal, sure, but it’s a shame when even a good chunk of a team’s fans can’t see what’s happening on the court.

      I know this is a site to chow on advanced stats and all, but jon you bring up a good point. Not to say that looks can’t be deceiving, but put aside the stats for a sec; what does your eyes see when you watch Fields and Shump-Shump?

      My eyes see:
      Fields – playing out of position at the 2, not an NBA starter with the level of talent we now have. Would make an ideal slasher 3 off the bench w/hustle and heady play. Defense can be OK but doesn’t fight over screens. Broken J; hurts the first unit a lot by not being able to knock down the kick-out 3 with ANY confidence.
      Shump – Shooting is shittay, but you dont get the feeling that you have to say a prayer when he puts up an open 3 the way you do with Fields. Looks more fluid driving the lane. Better quickness, and has the makings of a superior wing defender.

    135. johnlocke

      co-sign

      Frank:
      I think when we are citing stats we need to take into account trends through the season.I couldn’t care less what someone did in January if they obviously suck right now. This is a short season so the SSS arguments will always be available, but look at this:

      Landry Fields TS%/EFG by month:
      Dec: 55.1 / 53.8
      Jan: 53.9 / 50.8
      Feb: 51.7 / 50.4
      March 47.6 / 45.5
      Last 10 games: 43.9 / 39.8

      Shumper TS/EFG by month
      Dec: 36.2 / 23.1 (1 game)
      Jan: 44.7 / 41.9
      Feb: 47.2 / 43.3
      Mar: 50.2 / 46.2
      Last 10: 49.5 / 45

      Call me crazy, but who would you expect to be more efficient in April?

      Landry Fields’ shooting numbers as a graph:\
      Shumpert’s shooting numbers as a graph: /

      What’s worse is that it’s not like Fields’ shots are JUUUUST missing -he is missing by 3 pointers by FEET and is hitting the bottom of the rim on free throws. He has a huge confidence problem and it is infecting his whole game.I have no numbers to show this, but I would wager that his numbers shooting on the move (ie. as opposed to spot-up) are much higher because he has no time to mess up his mechanics.

    136. jon abbey

      Frank O.:
      Fields has already shown himself to be a sound defender, at times one of the best rebounding 2s in the game and a high efficiency scorer. We know this because he’s done it.

      not sure the first is true, the second really doesn’t matter much to me (rebounds need to be put into context as to their importance, some are crucial, the ones with multiple teammates there waiting for the ball add no value) as rebounding isn’t a very important skill for a SG not to mention Shumpert/Smith have gotten almost as many as Fields this year, and “high efficiency” is great if you’re James Harden, but it matters a lot less if you’re only shooting a few times per game.

      again, I don’t get why there’s more optimism for Fields going forward than there is for Douglas. Douglas was good more recently, the tail end of last season, both are fairly young and allegedly healthy. TD will probably get some minutes tonight, hopefully he does something with them.

    137. Frank

      Hmmm…..

      MokeHamilton: JVG, on w/ Michael Kay, refuses to say he WOULD return to coach #Knicks but does say he liked working here and has no ill will toward Dolan

      MokeHamilton: JVG on #Knicks: “When I was an interim coach, I would look down on other people that would comment on whether they’d take someone’s job…”

    138. TelegraphedPass

      I hate __________. I’ve hated him since he donned the uniform, and spent every trade deadline hoping he is good enough for another team to take him off our hands. Then the 2011 postseason happened, and I realized my hatred for _______ was reaching Larry Bird/KG/Reggie Miller levels. I resent that some posters use his name, and will continue to wait for the day when he leaves this team.

    139. Frank

      jon abbey:

      again, I don’t get why there’s more optimism for Fields going forward than there is for Douglas. Douglas was good more recently, the tail end of last season, both are fairly young and allegedly healthy. TD will probably get some minutes tonight, hopefully he does something with them.

      I think there is something to be said for lack of practice time for young players. It is really amazing that two of our players have just completely lost their confidence in their jump shot. Toney led the freaking league in 3P made in the second half last year, and this year he can’t hit anything, not to mention suddenly completely forgetting how to run an offense, which he did reasonably well at times last year. Landry shot 39% from 3 last year and now he suddenly has the same form on his shot as my 2 year old.

    140. Frank

      Wow – On Michael Kay’s show JVG basically putting it all out there that he wants to coach the NYK again, without actually saying it out of deference to Woodson. Don’t know how I feel – I love JVG but I think Woodson’s done a very good job in a tough spot. Ian Begley just tweeted that the Woodson Knicks are giving up 89 points/100 poss.

    141. The Infamous Cdiggy

      I loved JVG – his preparation for a team (given time) was immaculate, his teams scratched and clawed, played great D and played for each other. That said, his offensive principles were a bit too basic, and it’s too early to tell if he could do better than Woodson is doing right now.

    142. Frank O.

      JK47:
      Of course Fields is a useful player.As a 20 minutes per game depth guy, he’s fine.If he’s out there for 35 minutes every night, it’s harder to hide his weaknesses.

      Exactly the same can be said for Shump…

    143. Caleb

      art vandelay:
      Something to keep in mind for tonight´s game:

      The Knicks are 23rd in the NBA in opponent three-point shooting, allowing 30.4 percent. Under Woodson, they are yielding an even worse rate: 31.3 percent. This could be a lethal mix.

      Where are you getting those numbers? On ESPN it looks like only 8 teams are giving up a worse 3-point percentage, but it says Knicks are giving up .359… and where do you see pre/post Woody?

      Interesting they have been such an effective defense, despite being unable to stop the 3-ball. And only 6 teams have allowed more free throws. Ouch! They must make it up by defending the paint well… very well. Wonder how they manage that?

      http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense-per-game/sort/threePointFieldGoalPctOpponent/order/false

    144. Frank O.

      jon abbey: not sure the first is true, the second really doesn’t matter much to me (rebounds need to be put into context as to their importance, some are crucial, the ones with multiple teammates there waiting for the ball add no value) as rebounding isn’t a very important skill for a SG not to mention Shumpert/Smith have gotten almost as many as Fields this year, and “high efficiency” is great if you’re James Harden, but it matters a lot less if you’re only shooting a few times per game.

      again, I don’t get why there’s more optimism for Fields going forward than there is for Douglas. Douglas was good more recently, the tail end of last season, both are fairly young and allegedly healthy. TD will probably get some minutes tonight, hopefully he does something with them.

      I’m hopeful for TD, but less so than Fields only because the wheels came off every aspect of his game. Simply stated, he bore enormous responsibility for the Knicks losses early on. He was not even playing D league level ball. Shocking is overused, but it applied in the true sense of the word to TD’s collapse. He would dribbling across the mid-line go a few feet and spend the rest of the possession backpedalling to the midline and then dumping the ball or picking up his dribble, and his shots…

    145. Frank O.

      jon abbey: not sure the first is true, the second really doesn’t matter much to me (rebounds need to be put into context as to their importance, some are crucial, the ones with multiple teammates there waiting for the ball add no value) as rebounding isn’t a very important skill for a SG not to mention Shumpert/Smith have gotten almost as many as Fields this year, and “high efficiency” is great if you’re James Harden, but it matters a lot less if you’re only shooting a few times per game.

      again, I don’t get why there’s more optimism for Fields going forward than there is for Douglas. Douglas was good more recently, the tail end of last season, both are fairly young and allegedly healthy. TD will probably get some minutes tonight, hopefully he does something with them.

      Your flat out dislike for Fields’ game is notable. You have argued that Shump, Smith and now your hinting that TD deserves more Fields minutes at the 2.

    146. Frank O.

      Frank O.: Your flat out dislike for Fields’ game is notable. You have argued that Shump, Smith and now your hinting that TD deserves more Fields minutes at the 2.

      It also borders on the ridiculous given TD has completely collapsed in every aspect and Landry has shown he’s still quite productive, although in ways you seem to think unimportant…

    147. d-mar

      TelegraphedPass:
      I hate __________. I’ve hated him since he donned the uniform, and spent every trade deadline hoping he is good enough for another team to take him off our hands. Then the 2011 postseason happened, and I realized my hatred for _______ was reaching Larry Bird/KG/Reggie Miller levels. I resent that some posters use his name, and will continue to wait for the day when he leaves this team.

      TD was absolutely putrid as a PG earlier this year, he is always going east-west vs. north-south, as Clyde likes to point out, and has absolutely no court vision. The one thing I will say for him is he hit an incredibly ballsy 3 pointer late in the first Celtic playoff game, but that’s about the only positive thing I can remember.

    148. PC

      So a lot of us think Shump is better than Fields. So what? Fields plays the normal minutes we all want him to play (until he finds his shot). Flipping Shump as the starter probably hurts us. Landry plays crazy efficient first quarter ball. We all see that. Then we never see him again. Shump helps give some defense to an unathletic second unit. I think our second unit would struggle mightily with Fields throwing up bricks. Also, Fields runs a solid pick n roll on his own with Chandler/Stoudemire, which is nice for the first quarter.

      If you can’t shoot free throws/open jumpers, you can’t play in the fourth quarter, so Landry sits. I like.

    149. Frank O.

      please pardon the ridiculous number of typos in my posts today. I am iphone challenged.lol

    150. Frank

      The Infamous Cdiggy:
      I loved JVG – his preparation for a team (given time) was immaculate, his teams scratched and clawed, played great D and played for each other.That said, his offensive principles were a bit too basic, and it’s too early to tell if he could do better than Woodson is doing right now.

      Would be so interesting to see if his coaching style changes based on the fact that he sits on all those panels at Sloan.

      I dunno. I think Woodson has done a great job, and I wouldn’t be sad to see him stay on. He seems like a level-headed very competent coach so far. If he doesn’t get re-hired then I would love to see JVG come back. He’d get a standing ovation his first game at MSG.

    151. johnlocke

      I think Shump is bringing more to the 2 position, especially post ASG than Fields, but arguing that Fields is worse than TD this season is a BIG stretch…even with Field’s terrible shooting slump over the last 2 months he still has a higher 3pt% than TD while TD was in the lineup ..TD at 23% ..Landry at 25%. He also averaged less assists and rebounds. The only thing TD does better is shoot free throws. Not to mention TD’s terrible defense..pressuring guards he shouldn’t, not fighting over screens….Jon, don’t weaken your excellent shump vs fields pts by defending DWTDD. He’s like that horrible ex-wife that you remember all the good and none of the bad….he was terrible out there!

      Frank O.: Your flat out dislike for Fields’ game is notable. You have argued that Shump, Smith and now your hinting that TD deserves more Fields minutes at the 2.

    152. Frank

      Sorry to change the subject, but ESPN has been throwing around ideas on how to stop late-season tanking — Jim Cavan brought up a great idea on Twitter to give less weight to late season losses, thereby separating tankers from truly horrible teams. So building on that – this is what I wrote to #hoopidea:

      For non-playoff teams, an example of how to determine draft order:

      Games 1-41 – each loss counts as 1 “point” toward your draft ranking
      Games 42-50 – each loss counts as 0.8 points toward your draft ranking
      Games 51-60 – each loss counts as 0.6 points toward your draft ranking
      Games 61-70 – each loss counts as 0.5 points toward your draft ranking
      Games 71-82 – each loss counts as 0.4 points toward your draft ranking

      That way teams that are just tanking at the end of the year after they are probably eliminated from playoff contention in Feb/Mar can tank as much as they want, but will get less value for their losses than teams that suck all year long. In addition – non-playoff teams would not be penalized as much for improving in Mar/Apr.

      To make it even more interesting, since teams will figure out how to game the system eventually, you can set up (for example) 5 different point systems, and then have a random drawing AFTER the season to see which value scale is used for that draft. This would prevent teams from jockeying for #s of losses by the end of the year. This system could either completely eliminate the need for a lottery (so draft ranking would fully be based on points “earned”), or could feed into the lottery system itself, with the points “earned” determining how many balls you get in the lottery. Since there would be less incentive for late-season tanking, you could make the lottery much more weighted towards the bad teams so that teams that just miss the playoffs are even less likely to get a windfall.

      Thoughts?

    153. Frank

      continued —

      You could televise the revelation of the point system, which would basically determine the draft order, and turn it into an event, just like the draft lottery is now.

    154. Ben R

      I think both Fields and Shump are promising players, both are flawed players, both are young players and both need to improve this offseason.

      Why do so many people obsess on Fields’s flaws and completely ignore Shumps. Is it because Shump is still a shiny new toy and Fields is last years thing. I don’t understand.

    155. limpidgimp

      hoolahoop:
      Someone remind Lin that he’s a professional athlete. No one is 100%.

      The first day Lin actually talked about the sore knee with the media, he said it had been there for a ‘couple of days’. Which I took to mean he played through the pain on that game day and the previous game — so at least two games already. And he kept insisting it was ‘good to go’ for the next game, so it’s not as if he shrinks from pain and doesn’t want to play. He clearly wants to, but the team doctors consider it unwise. I agree. If the knee is aggravated past the point it can naturally heal while still playing, then you’re really back to square one. I don’t think any professional athlete expects to be pain free, especially with this season’s schedule.

      I don’t think players generally talk about their injuries until it is at the point where they seriously impair performance. Not just bc they are being tough about it, but bc a known injury can be exploited and deliberately aggravated by opponents. Advertising the injury just makes it more likely to be made worse bc opponents will create contact with it. Think of Chandler’s wrist.

    156. johnlocke

      Good idea, but this penalizes teams that legitimately lose games later in the season (tougher 2nd half schedule, injury to key players, etc)… you’d have to really balance out scheduling difficulty using your strategy which would be quite difficult.

      You could just let teams know that there will be investigations into teams suspected of tanking and that if teams are found to be tanking – institute a severe penalty (i.e. loss of draft picks for 5 years, etc)

      Frank:
      Sorry to change the subject, but ESPN has been throwing around ideas on how to stop late-season tanking — Jim Cavan brought up a great idea on Twitter togive less weight to late season losses, thereby separating tankers from truly horrible teams.So building on that – this is what I wrote to #hoopidea:

      For non-playoff teams, an example of how to determine draft order:

      Games 1-41 – each loss counts as 1 “point” toward your draft ranking
      Games 42-50 – each loss counts as 0.8 points toward your draft ranking
      Games 51-60 – each loss counts as 0.6 points toward your draft ranking
      Games 61-70 – each loss counts as 0.5 points toward your draft ranking
      Games 71-82 – each loss counts as 0.4 points toward your draft ranking

    157. jon abbey

      johnlocke:
      Jon, don’t weaken your excellent shump vs fields pts by defending DWTDD.He’s like that horrible ex-wife that you remember all the good and none of the bad….he was terrible out there!

      no, no, I remember very well. my point is that people are saying that Fields was good at one point (early last season) and so he can turn it around, but at the same time writing off TD, who was good more recently (late last season). I was certainly higher on TD than Fields coming into this season, but he was indeed dreadful and now should only get emergency minutes at backup PG, and Fields should certainly be ahead of him in the rotation.

      of course, if we’re at full strength, Fields shouldn’t play at all either (maybe a few minutes at backup SF, maybe), but moot point unless and until we are actually at full strength.

    158. johnlocke

      Also, is this really that big of a problem? It’s not like the NBA is the NFL…your fate still rests with lottery balls at the end of the day even if you tanked games…no? Don’t owners, coaches and players all have to be aligned on this tanking strategy? In this day and age, do we really think that owners, coaches, players and agents can keep a tanking strategy secret or that it won’t be obvious to outside viewers?

      Frank:
      continued —

      You could televise the revelation of the point system, which would basically determine the draft order, and turn it into an event, just like the draft lottery is now.

    159. dragonpavilion

      Hi guys, I’ve been a big time Knicks fan for a long time and I’m very excited about this season still! I think Stoudemire comes back this season and they have a real shot at the playoffs.
      Lin was saying he was good to go after Saturday’s game and even was at the shootaround on Sunday. I think he wants to play, but the coaching/training staff is telling him to wait till he’s 100%, so he’s only parroting their words. Go Knicks!

    160. Frank O.

      Ben R:
      I think both Fields and Shump are promising players, both are flawed players, both are young players and both need to improve this offseason.

      Why do so many people obsess on Fields’s flaws and completely ignore Shumps. Is it because Shump is still a shiny new toy and Fields is last years thing. I don’t understand.

      I think it’s ridiculous too. I think it’s that Shump is very good at one thing, but I’m not certain that one thing would be quite as good without Chandler playing.
      Anyway, Fields isn’t helping himself with his recent 3pt shooting swoon. Time will tell.
      I sometimes feel like we’re having a more adult version of the X player is better than Y player arguments we used to have as kids. My friends had a running argument about who was better Yaz or Pete Rose. it was epic.lol

    161. Frank O.

      That people think Shump is slam dunk better than Fields to the degree that Fields should get no minutes is just silly, full up or not.

      I’m out til tonight.

      I hope the guys turn it into a grinding defensive struggle. Otherwise we’re a few horses short for this one.

    162. Frank

      johnlocke:
      Also, is this really that big of a problem? It’s not like the NBA is the NFL…your fate still rests with lottery balls at the end of the day even if you tanked games…no?Don’t owners, coaches and players all have to be aligned on this tanking strategy? In this day and age, do we really think that owners, coaches, players and agents can keep a tanking strategy secret or that it won’t be obvious to outside viewers?

      I think it’s a big problem for a couple reasons. First, the rewards of tanking are totally obvious. If you happened to tank your way into the top 5 picks of the 2003 NBA draft, you basically had an 80% chance of a franchise-type player – LBJ, Melo, Bosh, Wade. The rest of the lottery? Kaman, Hinrich, TJ Ford, Mike Sweetney, Jarvis Hayes, Mikael Pietrus, Nick Collison, Marcus Banks, Luke Ridnour. If you look at the All-NBA 1st team last year, every player was a top 2 pick except Kobe. There is no mainstream sport now in which one player can completely change the fortunes of a franchise – think Shaq, DH12, Wade, LBJ etc.

      Second – teams tanking at the end of the year create a competitive problem at the end of the year – it’s just bad when you have one team that’s trying to lose against a team that is trying to win. If you’re lucky enough to have a higher percentage of tanking teams on your schedule in April then you have an advantage in playoff seeding.

      And in terms of tanking, it’s mostly only the fringe players that won’t benefit from tanking (ie. guys that will lose their job because of the lottery pick coming in). All the GM or coach has to do is hold someone out for the rest of the year with a chronic injury that could be played through if there was no benefit to tanking (ie. Stephen Curry is prob out for the year). There doesn’t need to be a secret pact.

    163. jon abbey

      FWIW, Fields will turn 24 in June, he’s older than Kevin Durant. Shumpert is two years younger, he’ll turn 22 in June.

    164. limpidgimp

      As for Lin’s knees, the article about his training said that “part of Lin’s weakness [in the legs] stemmed from a patellar tendon injury sustained the previous season.” I’m not sure which knee that article is referring to. Probably the right one I think, since Lin wears a brace around his right knee.

      http://www.mercurynews.com/jeremy-lin/ci_20033514

    165. ephus

      TelegraphedPass: TelegraphedPass says:

      March 28, 2012 at 3:54 pm

      I hate __________. I’ve hated him since he donned the uniform, and spent every trade deadline hoping he is good enough for another team to take him off our hands. Then the 2011 postseason happened, and I realized my hatred for _______ was reaching Larry Bird/KG/Reggie Miller levels. I resent that some posters use his name, and will continue to wait for the day when he leaves this team.

      Please tell me that you are being facetious. It is OK to think ____ is not a good player. It is probably even OK to think that the Knicks never should have drafted him (although I disagree). But to put him in the company of Bird/KG/Miller — three guys who openly reviled and disrespected the Knicks and MSG — makes no sense. ___ has always played with full effort, he has not made any waves in the press and generally appears to be a genuinely nice guy who tried his best but was not suited to be a PG.

      I cannot think of many players who deserve to be hated by their hometown fans — Vince Carter and Toronto is the one example that springs to mind. But he admittedly dogged it in regular season games until Toronto agreed to trade him to NJ.

    166. jon abbey

      I really hate that line bullshit. the guy sucked, but his name is Toney Douglas. he’s likely going to play tonight, let’s give him at least 100 minutes of playing time before we start crushing him again.

      go Toney!

    167. cgreene

      jon abbey:
      I really hate that line bullshit. the guy sucked, but his name is Toney Douglas. he’s likely going to play tonight, let’s give him at least 100 minutes of playing time before we start crushing him again.

      go Toney!

      +1

    168. cgreene

      I generally agree that Shump and Fields both have flaws but Fields is taking more flak. I am probably guilty. One reason is also that Fields shot is so aesthetically displeasing that it makes it easier to see the flaw. Fields plays a nice controlled floor game. Gets big rebounds and I think his D is a bit underrated. Chasing good shooting 2′s around screens is a disadvantage for him due to his size. But I think he should be very adequate defending 3′s which is why I like the starting lineup from last game on D. Tonight should also be a plus for that lineup with Melo defending a finesse (but good rebounding) 4 in Anderson.

      I think some of the points about Shump’s D being a gambling style that is improved by having Tyson behind him (everyone has that advantage) is also not true. I think one of Shump’s biggest strengths on D is his ability to be both incredibly strong straight up on the ball as well as his ability to gamble and recover. He recovers very well. Maybe he switches too quickly sometimes and doesn’t rotate properly on help D is where I might criticize. He’s also seemed to have gotten better at finishing at the rim. It surprises me that he can’t blow by his man on O more. Guess it’s bc they don’t respect his shot.

    169. cgreene

      I think they might try and teach Shump a little post game when is being guarded by 2′s bc he is so strong also.

    170. TelegraphedPass

      @178 There is no rule as to what the prerequisites are to hating players. I never liked _______. I didn’t like him when he was a productive back-up, and I like him even less now. I’m not saying it’s completely rational. I just never liked the guy so his failures today fill me with bile.

      @179 He’s had over 100 mins of playing time. As I said, I’ve NEVER liked him. I’m not arguing that buying his pick was a bad choice or that he wasn’t useful to the team. I just don’t like him, and never have. I really hate that “using his real name” bull**** but I’m not telling you not to do it. He will always be ______ to me.

    171. johnlocke

      Agreed that the rewards of tanking are clear…and it most likely ratchets up when there is a really strong class (Lebron’s draft class) or a clear big-time player on the board (Shaq).

      I just don’t think that the answer is saying that some wins/losses are more or less meaningful than others, b/c no matter how you cut it, it ends up being unfair to the teams that are not tanking. I think the better route is to institute a very harsh penalty for teams found to be tanking and launch investigations where tanking looks like it may have occurred.

      Frank: I think it’s a big problem for a couple reasons.First, the rewards of tanking are totally obvious. If you happened to tank your way into the top 5 picks of the 2003 NBA draft, you basically had an 80% chance of a franchise-type player – LBJ, Melo, Bosh, Wade.T

      Second – teams tanking at the end of the year create a competitive problem at the end of the year – it’s just bad when you have one team that’s trying to lose against a team that is trying to win.If you’re lucky enough to have a higher percentage of tanking teams on your schedule in April then you have an advantage in playoff seeding.

    172. jon abbey

      TelegraphedPass:
      @178 There is no rule as to what the prerequisites are to hating players. I never liked _______. I didn’t like him when he was a productive back-up, and I like him even less now. I’m not saying it’s completely rational. I just never liked the guy so his failures today fill me with bile.

      @179 He’s had over 100 mins of playing time. As I said, I’ve NEVER liked him. I’m not arguing that buying his pick was a bad choice or that he wasn’t useful to the team. I just don’t like him, and never have. I really hate that “using his real name” bull**** but I’m not telling you not to do it. He will always be ______ to me.

      fair enough. to me, clearly he was going through some things earlier in the year, physical, family, both or whatever. Bibby is a walking corpse out there, so if Douglas can play 12-15 minutes better than that, I’m all for it.

      what didn’t you like about him last year? just curious, he doesn’t seem like a kind of guy who inspires much hate.

    173. TelegraphedPass

      cgreene: I think they might try and teach Shump a little post game when is being guarded by 2?s bc he is so strong also.

      I struggle to see how a player without a well-developed jumpshot or a significant size advantage can benefit from a post game more than simply working on his jumpert. I mean, Wade has shown the benefits of a guard having a strong post game, but he’s a once-in-a-generation talent. I would much rather Shumpert keep working on his J.

    174. Frank O.

      jon abbey:
      I really hate that line bullshit. the guy sucked, but his name is Toney Douglas. he’s likely going to play tonight, let’s give him at least 100 minutes of playing time before we start crushing him again.

      go Toney!

      Couldn’t agree more. And I have a particular dislike for the use of the term “hate” in simple conversation.

    175. Bruno Almeida

      johnlocke:
      Agreed that the rewards of tanking are clear…and it most likely ratchets up when there is a really strong class (Lebron’s draft class) or a clear big-time player on the board (Shaq).

      I just don’t think that the answer is saying that some wins/losses are more or less meaningful than others, b/c no matter how you cut it, it ends up being unfair to the teams that are not tanking. I think the better route is to institute a very harsh penalty for teams found to be tanking and launch investigations where tanking looks like it may have occurred.

      yeah, I agree that a penalty on tanking would be nice, but until that happens (and it may never happen), tanking is just about the best way to rebuild.

      no team ever goes from a middle-lottery / 7th, 8th playoff spot to a championship team unless MAJOR free agent changes or something like that happen, and those happen only to a couple of very lucky franchises.

    176. cgreene

      TelegraphedPass: I struggle to see how a player without a well-developed jumpshot or a significant size advantage can benefit from a post game more than simply working on his jumpert. I mean, Wade has shown the benefits of a guard having a strong post game, but he’s a once-in-a-generation talent. I would much rather Shumpert keep working on his J.

      Exactly. And Wade has a mediocre jumper. And I disagree that Shump doesn’t have a size advantage. He is incredibly strong for his position (heard Clyde comment on this several times) and he has very long arms. The thing I would think he would need to be good in the post is better passing skills as he would get doubled. I can think of lots of other guards in the post btw.

    177. TelegraphedPass

      jon abbey: fair enough. to me, clearly he was going through some things earlier in the year, physical, family, both or whatever. Bibby is a walking corpse out there, so if Douglas can play 12-15 minutes better than that, I’m all for it.what didn’t you like about him last year? just curious, he doesn’t seem like a kind of guy who inspires much hate.

      It mostly came out of a situation that wasn’t his fault. I felt the Knicks were giving him far too much credit over the years. He was a limited defensive talent in the NBA and I didn’t trust his outside shot. I didn’t like him in interviews and I sensed the team preparing to give him major responsibility. I started to get nervous, and that made me start to hate him even more for everything he wasn’t and couldn’t be. Then Chancey got hurt in the playoffs.

      I immediately knew ___ would have to fill in, and was worried he would be a monumental failure. RR marinated him and devoured Blank Line in his leisure. After several nights of abject misery after being swept by the team I hate more than any sports team in any sport ever, my hatred cooled to a sort of icy loathing.

      Fast forward. Chauncey has been amnestied to make room for Tyson. Empty Space is now the starting point guard for my Knicks on opening day of the 2011-2012 season. My rage has ignited. He begins the year looking even worse than I gave him credit for. At this point, I’m considering ritual suicide as opposed to seeing Solitary Line CONTINUE to utterly fail to make a pass out of the pick and roll to two of the most dangerous finishers in the league.

      Point of this tl;dnr is: Thank Tebow for Jeremy Lin, and I still hate this guy ——> ___________

    178. TelegraphedPass

      cgreene: Exactly. And Wade has a mediocre jumper. And I disagree that Shump doesn’t have a size advantage. He is incredibly strong for his position (heard Clyde comment on this several times) and he has very long arms. The thing I would think he would need to be good in the post is better passing skills as he would get doubled. I can think of lots of other guards in the post btw.

      Kobe. MarShon Brooks. Wade. Monta sometimes. And a few point guards like Deron. That is a very short list compared to the sheer number of guards in the league. And an outside shot would be infinitely more useful to this team right now.

    179. Z-man

      jon abbey: fair enough. to me, clearly he was going through some things earlier in the year, physical, family, both or whatever. Bibby is a walking corpse out there, so if Douglas can play 12-15 minutes better than that, I’m all for it.what didn’t you like about him last year? just curious, he doesn’t seem like a kind of guy who inspires much hate.

      I’m with you, jon. Douglas has had good stretches for us, especially in a proper role. His lack of peripheral vision causes him to get blindsided on screens and his shoulder is probably shot in the short run. He has sucked this year, and D’Antoni or whoever should not have assumed he was the PG answer in the short run. Still, I like the guy personally, he always gives 110% of what he has, even if it ain’t much. I’m all for giving him a chance to play over Bibby, who is terrible on both ends. At least TD can make some speed plays on D.

    180. Doug

      TelegraphedPass: It mostly came out of a situation that wasn’t his fault. I felt the Knicks were giving him far too much credit over the years. He was a limited defensive talent in the NBA and I didn’t trust his outside shot. I didn’t like him in interviews and I sensed the team preparing to give him major responsibility. I started to get nervous, and that made me start to hate him even more for everything he wasn’t and couldn’t be. Then Chancey got hurt in the playoffs.

      I immediately knew ___ would have to fill in, and was worried he would be a monumental failure. RR marinated him and devoured Blank Line in his leisure. After several nights of abject misery after being swept by the team I hate more than any sports team in any sport ever, my hatred cooled to a sort of icy loathing.

      Fast forward. Chauncey has been amnestied to make room for Tyson. Empty Space is now the starting point guard for my Knicks on opening day of the 2011-2012 season. My rage has ignited. He begins the year looking even worse than I gave him credit for. At this point, I’m considering ritual suicide as opposed to seeing Solitary Line CONTINUE to utterly fail to make a pass out of the pick and roll to two of the most dangerous finishers in the league.

      Point of this tl;dnr is: Thank Tebow for Jeremy Lin, and I still hate this guy ——> ___________

      You’re weird. You might also have anger problems.

    181. JC Knickfan

      It was obvious TonyD could not play PG in MDA system.
      But with Lin out and BD not having the endurance to play more 25 minutes, it time give TonyD chance to play. Knicks did pickup his option for next year so baring a trade, he going to be on team again. Let see if his shot is back. Woodson going watching him like a hawk so I doubt he going to jackup 3 left and right.

      Bibby virtually invisible when he plays. He doesn’t even want bring the ball up when Knicks get possession. I would put money on that this is his last year in NBA. Our GM really should cut him and get FA PF.

    182. TelegraphedPass

      I was exaggerating. But alright. Good to know that it’s ok to slander Melo, but not ok to slander TD.

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