Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Jun 06 2012)

  • [New York Times] Playoffs | Game 5: Celtics 94, Heat 90: N.B.A. Playoffs — Celtics Going for Knockout After Game 5 Win Over Heat (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 07:19:03 GMT)
    The pulse still beats for Boston’s Big Three, with more vigor than anyone realized, as Paul Pierce scored a decisive 3-pointer to give the Celtics a 3-2 lead in the Eastern Conference Finals.

  • [New York Times] On Basketball: 2012 N.B.A. Playoffs — Spurs Miss That Spring in Their Step (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 05:30:18 GMT)
    The Spurs’ last chance to tie Game 5 of the Western Conference Finals — a fall-away 3-point attempt by Manu Ginobili — contrasted sharply with the Thunder’s elevation and athleticism throughout.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Thunder’s Kevin Durant Is Still on the Rise (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 01:46:48 GMT)
    Kevin Durant’s defense has come a long way of late, in part because of the Oklahoma City Thunder’s patient approach with their developing stars.

  • [New York Times] Celtics Take Control of East, Beat Heat 94-90 (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 07:49:13 GMT)
    When the Boston Celtics last left Miami, they were on the ropes. Down 2-0 in the Eastern Conference finals. Unable to solve LeBron James and Dwyane Wade. On the cusp of being ousted by the Heat for a second straight season.

  • [New York Times] Heat Face Huge Challenge After Home Loss, Says Returning Bosh (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 06:10:18 GMT)
    Chris Bosh returned from a nine-game injury lay-off but he could not help the Miami Heat from falling to a surprise 94-90 home loss to the Boston Celtics that leaves their season on the line.

  • [New York Times] Celtics Cool Off Heat to Move One Win From Finals (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 05:28:38 GMT)
    The Boston Celtics drew on their famous grit and determination to move within one victory of the NBA Finals on Tuesday with an upset 94-90 road win over the Miami Heat to take a 3-2 series lead.

  • [New York Times] Celtics Stun Heat in Miami to Move One Win From Finals (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 03:57:51 GMT)
    The Boston Celtics moved to one win away from the NBA Finals by stunning the Miami Heat with a 94-90 road win in Game Five on Tuesday to take a 3-2 lead in the series.

  • [New York Times] Game 5: Celtics 94, Heat 90: N.B.A. Playoffs — Celtics Beat Heat to Take Control of East (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 04:29:21 GMT)
    Paul Pierce hit a 3-pointer over LeBron James with just under a minute left as the Boston Celtics moved one win away from an Eastern Conference title on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Bosh Returns, but Heat Fall in Game 5 to Boston (Wed, 06 Jun 2012 04:43:13 GMT)
    Chris Bosh was moved by the raucous ovation he got when checking into the game.

  • 97 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Jun 06 2012)

    1. Frank

      Man, another inexplicable post-game comment from LBJ:

      “I think we played good enough to give ourselves a chance to win, and that’s all you can ask for,” James said afterward.”

      Um, Lebron? This isn’t peewee football where everyone gets a trophy. This is the highest level of basketball. There are no prizes for “GOOD JOB!! GOOD EFFORT!!”

      It’s just unreal that he can say things like this after crushing losses. If I were a Heat fan, I’d almost rather him throw his teammates under the bus (see: Kobe Bryant) than give detached commentary like this.

    2. Frank

      @1 – I posted the LBJ quote before I read that article, but man – that article hits it RIGHT on the head about Lebron. He CAN but he doesn’t WANT to. He doesn’t burn the same way MJ did. South Beach seems perfect for him in retrospect – always sunny, life is easy – as opposed to Cleveland where every day is a struggle. GREAT article by Posnanski.

    3. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank:
      Man, another inexplicable post-game comment from LBJ:

      “I think we played good enough to give ourselves a chance to win, and that’s all you can ask for,” James said afterward.”

      Um, Lebron? This isn’t peewee football where everyone gets a trophy. This is the highest level of basketball. There are no prizes for “GOOD JOB!! GOOD EFFORT!!”

      It’s just unreal that he can say things like this after crushing losses. If I were a Heat fan, I’d almost rather him throw his teammates under the bus (see: Kobe Bryant) than give detached commentary like this.

      Really? You’d rather him be like Kobe Bryant, who might be the biggest asshole in the league?

      I’d much rather have a guy I can root for than a self-absorbed, me-first prick to help me to vicarious glory and metaphysical riches. I’d rather lose for twenty years than be able to see the scum of the basketball world (James Dolan, Isiah Thomas, et al.) raise a championship trophy. I bet every time Kobe wins he goes home and says, “If not for me, if not for me,” in that jon abbey “I make my teammates better whether you can measure it or not” sort of way.

      I know LeBron’s a spoiled, pampered asshole too (the piece about how the SI photographer wasn’t allowed to speak to him directly is telling), but to want to hear him throw his teammates under the bus? That shit doesn’t work on any level of basketball or competitive play. If he wants to diss his teammates he can do it to his wife. Then he can have his agent trade him to Dallas. I just don’t get your post at all.

    4. TelegraphedPass

      Frank: @1 – I posted the LBJ quote before I read that article, but man – that article hits it RIGHT on the head about Lebron. He CAN but he doesn’t WANT to. He doesn’t burn the same way MJ did. South Beach seems perfect for him in retrospect – always sunny, life is easy – as opposed to Cleveland where every day is a struggle. GREAT article by Posnanski.

      I don’t know, this all just seems exaggerated to me. Why stay in Cleveland when he knows he will constantly be judged by NBA titles? Nobody cares about his loyalty or dedication if he isn’t winning rings. Wade wasn’t about to demand to be traded to Cleveland.

    5. Nick C.

      There’s more than one way to skin a cat. Tim Duncan has 4 rings without being a ranty rave type of guy. Think about your own jobs are the foaming at the mouth types better than their more subdued co-workers.

    6. thenamestsam

      @Frank
      I think the post-game comment is being blown a bit out of proportion. I thought it was pretty standard throw-away stuff. I thinkyou’re just reading too much into it.

      Anyway I think it’s interesting that as a society we crucify him for not having that same “burn” as Frank says, even though that probably makes him a “better person” in most of the ways we traditionally see it. I’d much rather be friends with Lebron than Jordan, I certainly live my life a lot closer to Lebron’s mentality, and if I have children someday I wouldn’t dream of teaching them to be purely focused on victory at the extent of everything else. If they grew up with that attitude I’d probably consider myself a failure as a parent, honestly. What does that say that we continuously kill Lebron for not having an attitude that we generally view as a negative. Seems more than a little backward.

    7. Eternal OptiKnist

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’d rather lose for twenty years than be able to see the scum of the basketball world (James Dolan, Isiah Thomas, et al.) raise a championship trophy.

      I’ve always found your posts well-thought-out and though its not my style, have often been amused at the skull-f^&king you’ve given other posters this past year. But seriously, if thats what you think, what are you doing here? If an ownership group comprised of the Kardashians, Snooki and Satan owned the team and we won, id be quite happy.

    8. Eternal OptiKnist

      So i find myself being conflicted in rooting for/against the heat in this series and the playoffs in general. On the one hand, i want to see the Heat go down in flames for obvious reasons. But then i stop and think…’if the top-heavy, ‘big 3′ formula isnt workking with the two best players in the world + another very good player, what the hell makes me think we can make it work with our less-talented, more-injury-prone Knick ‘big-whatever’?? I am in a quagmire (giggity)…please help.

    9. JK47

      Of course LeBron thought he’d just go to Miami and it would just be easy:

      “The way we’re going to challenge each other in practice, once the game starts it’s going to be easy. I mean with me and D-Wade running the wing, I mean Pat [Riley] could come back and play like he was in his Kentucky days. Just throw it up there and we’re gonna get it.”

      It’s very enjoyable watching someone like that get his comeuppance.

    10. johnlocke

      Yeh front-running team, pressure bursts pipes, etc.
      How Lebron managed to only score one meaningless bucket in the last 8 minutes of the fourth quarter is unbelievable. I think he needs to watch that Stephen A. SNL video about what should be happening in the 4th quarter

      JK47:
      Of course LeBron thought he’d just go to Miami and it would just be easy:

      “The way we’re going to challenge each other in practice, once the game starts it’s going to be easy. I mean with me and D-Wade running the wing, I mean Pat [Riley] could come back and play like he was in his Kentucky days. Just throw it up there and we’re gonna get it.”

      It’s very enjoyable watching someone like that get his comeuppance.

    11. Nick C.

      JK47: Of course LeBron thought he’d just go to Miami and it would just be easy:“The way we’re going to challenge each other in practice, once the game starts it’s going to be easy. I mean with me and D-Wade running the wing, I mean Pat [Riley] could come back and play like he was in his Kentucky days. Just throw it up there and we’re gonna get it.”It’s very enjoyable watching someone like that get his comeuppance.

      At the risk of coming off as schitzo … ^ that pretty much sums it up, as it does with Kobe, Jordan, Steinbrenner, and all the throw my toys out of the pram types as well.

    12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Eternal OptiKnist: I’ve always found your posts well-thought-out and though its not my style, have often been amused at the skull-f^&king you’ve given other posters this past year.But seriously, if thats what you think, what are you doing here?If an ownership group comprised of the Kardashians, Snooki and Satan owned the team and we won, id be quite happy.

      I don’t care if you don’t care about who gets to have the $1000 champagne parties after a championship win. I don’t like corporate greed, and owners like James Dolan and Donald Sterling and Dan Snyder and their kind don’t deserve to enjoy the glory of the win while they enjoy price gouging and fucking their fans by any means necessary.

      The reality is that, for all my stats talk (however flawed you and the others might find it), I enjoy seeing the human side of sports. I like seeing people come together, as the Spurs do, and work together to be the best possible team they can be. I like seeing the rhythm and precision of a well-turned double play, the clandestine discussion of a pitcher and a catcher strategizing against a formidable opponent, an offensive lineman picking up his sacked quarterback. I like seeing the Farieds and Lins and Leonards come into a league they were not athletic or big or strong or skilled enough to perform in and set it on fire. I don’t watch sports to see the privileged become more privileged. I don’t think that Dolan deserves a championship, and I won’t be happy to see him holding a championship banner. I’m not a slave to the uniform. Deal with it.

    13. Glew

      Honestly I think this series is showing that it is more about the variety of weapons one team has vs another. Check out the clutch plays of peitrius, dooling, daniels etc. I dont think the heat are necessarily folding under pressure, look at the scrubs they have on their team minus the big 2.5. Additionally, the celtics have 3 future hall of famers with team chemistry. The knicks need to come together as a group as I believe we are more talented than either of the teams in terms of versatile weapons provided everyone is healthy and we retain all important free agents plus add a nice draft pick.

    14. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t watch sports to see the privileged become more privileged. I don’t think that Dolan deserves a championship, and I won’t be happy to see him holding a championship banner.

      I literally couldn’t care less who the owner was if we won a championship because guess what, if we win a championship he obviously did something right. Steinbrenner was hated by 99% of all baseball fans when the Yankees were losing and he was hiring gangsters to follow Winfield around – and then he won and he’s celebrated as a true winner and lionized at his death.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Really? You’d rather him be like Kobe Bryant, who might be the biggest asshole in the league?

      I’d much rather have a guy I can root for than a self-absorbed, me-first prick to help me to vicarious glory and metaphysical riches.

      which is why I said:

      Frank: If I were a Heat fan, I’d almost rather him throw his teammates under the bus

      Note the “almost”.

      Anyway – this sentence from you is telling, and not at all a surprise:

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’d rather lose for twenty years than be able to see the scum of the basketball world (James Dolan, Isiah Thomas, et al.) raise a championship trophy

      You’ve been rooting hard against the Knicks for years now despite calling yourself a “fan”. Fans do not actively root against their team so they can be proven right in their little tiny Dave Berri world. You can boycott MSG or not get cable, but to “rather lose for twenty years” is a little melodramatic.

    15. Nick C.

      Frank I think there were plenty of people here that were rooting against the Isaiah Knicks in the hopes of him getting fired, or at least several who confessed. I found them impossible to root for and won’t call out or re-out the people I seem to remember who mentioned this. There’s more to it than just the laundry or even the winning. I found the Oakley Knicks way more likeable than the Spreewell, LJ Knicks. If you want compare different casts on Saturday Night Live. The title of the show is the same but …

    16. Frank

      Nick C.:
      Frank I think there were plenty of people here that were rooting against the Isaiah Knicks in the hopes of him getting fired, or at least several who confessed. I found them impossible to root for and won’t call out or re-out the people I seem to remember who mentioned this.

      It’s one thing to root for your crappy cellar-dwelling team to lose to get the best lottery pick.

      It’s one thing to root for your crappy cellar-dwelling team to lose so a crappy coach gets fired.

      It’s a whole different thing to root for your team that’s IN THE PLAYOFFS to lose because you would rather lose for 20 years in a row so that the owner doesn’t get the satisfaction of winning.

      The 1st two would be considered (IMHO) having the best long-term interest of the team at heart. I totally get that, and felt the same way back then.

      The last would be considered (IMHO) trolling – you are actually hoping that your team loses in the playoffs? Let’s say Dolan is courtside waiting to accept the Larry O’Brien trophy on the last possession of the NBA finals which is tied 3-3. Knicks are down by 1 and Melo has the ball. The shot goes up, and you’re hoping it misses so Dolan doesn’t have the satisfaction of winning a title??!?!? Because that’s what THCJ is saying.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t think that Dolan deserves a championship, and I won’t be happy to see him holding a championship banner. I’m not a slave to the uniform. Deal with it.

      He’s obviously entitled to say whatever he wants, and KB is obviously open to anyone who wants to post. But when you post on a Knicks forum, admit you want them to lose, and then spend all your time trolling people on that board — well, you’re a troll.

    17. Frank

      I don’t even know why I’m wasting my time with this. While calling out a troll, I’m trolling the troll. Sorry for wasting space with this ridiculous rant.

    18. johnlocke

      Haha, FWIW, I agree with you.

      Also, it’s futile to think that the Knicks losing and Dolan selling the Knicks (or the Knicks becoming less valuable) have any kind of direct relationship. He just fires the underlings (source: last 10 years of Knicks basketball)

      Frank:
      I don’t even know why I’m wasting my time with this. While calling out a troll, I’m trolling the troll. Sorry for wasting space with this ridiculous rant.

    19. deposit-methods

      @Frank LMAO…… to go back to your original post and LBJ’s quote “I think we played good enough to give ourselves a chance to win, and that’s all you can ask for,”

      He really does lack that killer instinct the MJ and Kobe both had and just doesn’t seem to get it. Some guys waste their talent on drugs(Josh Hamilton/Gooden), other on booze and girls(Matt Leinart) and some simply because they don’t get it(LBJ).

      It’s no different than watching LBJ smiling walking off the court in Cleveland after being eliminated from the playoffs. Personally I hope he never gets it together and fails to win a single championship let alone 7!

    20. thenamestsam

      deposit-methods:
      @Frank LMAO…… to go back to your original post and LBJ’s quote “I think we played good enough to give ourselves a chance to win, and that’s all you can ask for,”

      He really does lack that killer instinct the MJ and Kobe both had and just doesn’t seem to get it.Some guys waste their talent on drugs(Josh Hamilton/Gooden), other on booze and girls(Matt Leinart) and some simply because they don’t get it(LBJ).

      It’s no different than watching LBJ smiling walking off the court in Cleveland after being eliminated from the playoffs. Personally I hope he never gets it together and fails to win a single championship let alone 7!

      I understand that this is a common point of view, but let me throw something out there.

      We have three grown adult males that you’re describing. They play a game for a living. Two of them will burn any bridge, criticize anyone, destroy their families and their personal lives, and their relationships with effectively every person they’ve ever worked with to get to the peak of their profession. To be the absolute best at tossing a ball through a hoop. The other guy seems to think that there are more important things in life. From the evidence we have it seems like some things are more important to him than his career. He cares more about enjoying his job than reaching the absolute peak of his profession. He doesn’t treat every day at work like it’s life or death, and as a result his co-workers clearly enjoy his presence. He doesn’t relentlessly criticize them, trash them to the media, play mental games with them.

      Remind me which guy you think “gets it”?

    21. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: It’s one thing to root for your crappy cellar-dwelling team to lose to get the best lottery pick.

      It’s one thing to root for your crappy cellar-dwelling team to lose so a crappy coach gets fired.

      It’s a whole different thing to root for your team that’s IN THE PLAYOFFS to lose because you would rather lose for 20 years in a row so that the owner doesn’t get the satisfaction of winning.

      The 1st two would be considered (IMHO) having the best long-term interest of the team at heart. I totally get that, and felt the same way back then.

      The last would be considered (IMHO) trolling – you are actually hoping that your team loses in the playoffs?Let’s say Dolan is courtside waiting to accept the Larry O’Brien trophy on the last possession of the NBA finals which is tied 3-3. Knicks are down by 1 and Melo has the ball. The shot goes up, and you’re hoping it misses so Dolan doesn’t have the satisfaction of winning a title??!?!?Because that’s what THCJ is saying.

      He’s obviously entitled to say whatever he wants, and KB is obviously open to anyone who wants to post.But when you post on a Knicks forum, admit you want them to lose, and then spend all your time trolling people on that board — well, you’re a troll.

      I live in the greater NYC area and I’ve been a Knicks fan since I was a kid (early 90s). I’ll follow whoever I want and I’ll voice any opinion I want about the way the team is run, their foolish personnel choices, their shitty owner, and his miserable underlings. You think I’m a troll. Big fucking deal. I think you’re a myopic fanboy with a cognitive dissonance problem, able to unequivocally root for a set of players either drafted or outbid on by a multimillion dollar corporation run by a rich, pampered shithead who has paid out of pocket for a sexual harrassment lawsuit in which he was complicit.

    22. Kevin McElroy

      thenamestsam,

      It’s an interesting argument and one that I do agree with somewhat. But if you want to apply normal work/life balance principles to incredibly well-compensated pro athletes, how do you feel about the following:

      1) guys sitting out due to minor injuries
      2) guys showing up to camp out of shape
      3) players refusing to give interviews after games
      4) players refusing to sign autographs
      5) players playing for individual stats to hit performance milestones that trigger additional pay
      6) players asking to be traded simply because they do not like one of their teammates or coaches

      All of these things have pretty basic analogues to the way all of our jobs work but are viewed very differently when the worker in question is a pro athlete. You have to do one of two things: 1) insist that their jobs are just like everyone else’s and thus people should not be critical of players who do things on that list or 2) admit that their jobs are not quite like everyone else’s. I’m not saying which of these is right — and maybe your point is that there is a line somewhere along the spectrum that represents a happy medium — but I don’t think you can just say “you wouldn’t want to do this at your job” and that’s the end of the argument.

    23. ruruland

      But when you post on a Knicks forum, admit you want them to lose, and then spend all your time trolling people on that board — well, you’re a troll.

      That pretty much sums it up.

    24. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      thenamestsam: I understand that this is a common point of view, but let me throw something out there.

      We have three grown adult males that you’re describing. They play a game for a living. Two of them will burn any bridge, criticize anyone, destroy their families and their personal lives, and their relationships with effectively every person they’ve ever worked with to get to the peak of their profession. To be the absolute best at tossing a ball through a hoop. The other guy seems to think that there are more important things in life. From the evidence we have it seems like some things are more important to him than his career. He cares more about enjoying his job than reaching the absolute peak of his profession. He doesn’t treat every day at work like it’s life or death, and as a result his co-workers clearly enjoy his presence. He doesn’t relentlessly criticize them, trash them to the media, play mental games with them.

      Remind me which guy you think “gets it”?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35a6KAHAwr8

      Man, look at that guy. He’s just lost a game and he’s sitting calmly with his son saying how the game “just got away” from his team in the second half. He obviously doesn’t give a shit about winning. At least not the way of the people who “get it,” am I right?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGs0wN0D_O0

      This guy gets it. He doesn’t fuck around with his kids during a press conference. He tells the press what they know: that his teammates are the reason the Lakers lost that game. He “gets” it.

    25. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I live in the greater NYC area and I’ve been a Knicks fan since I was a kid (early 90s). I’ll follow whoever I want and I’ll voice any opinion I want about the way the team is run, their foolish personnel choices, their shitty owner, and his miserable underlings. You think I’m a troll.

      And you’ll be called a troll.

    26. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland:
      But when you post on a Knicks forum, admit you want them to lose, and then spend all your time trolling people on that board — well, you’re a troll.

      That pretty much sums it up.

      And what are you, pal? Carmelo Anthony’s personal fluffer? You don’t even know what team you’ll be following in 2015.

    27. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35a6KAHAwr8

      Man, look at that guy. He’s just lost a game and he’s sitting calmly with his son saying how the game “just got away” from his team in the second half. He obviously doesn’t give a shit about winning. At least not the way of the people who “get it,” am I right?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGs0wN0D_O0

      This guy gets it. He doesn’t fuck around with his kids during a press conference. He tells the press what they know: that his teammates are the reason the Lakers lost that game. He “gets” it.

      You’ve never done anything competitive in your life. That’s not throwing his teammates under the bus. Moreover, even if he went further, that’s ok. Phil Jackson did the same thing to Kobe Bryant for years.

    28. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: And what are you, pal? Carmelo Anthony’s personal fluffer? You don’t even know what team you’ll be following in 2015.

      Well, I certainly won’t be wasting my time rooting against a team I claim to be a fan of.

    29. ruruland

      thenamestsam: I understand that this is a common point of view, but let me throw something out there.

      We have three grown adult males that you’re describing. They play a game for a living. Two of them will burn any bridge, criticize anyone, destroy their families and their personal lives, and their relationships with effectively every person they’ve ever worked with to get to the peak of their profession. To be the absolute best at tossing a ball through a hoop. The other guy seems to think that there are more important things in life. From the evidence we have it seems like some things are more important to him than his career. He cares more about enjoying his job than reaching the absolute peak of his profession. He doesn’t treat every day at work like it’s life or death, and as a result his co-workers clearly enjoy his presence. He doesn’t relentlessly criticize them, trash them to the media, play mental games with them.

      Remind me which guy you think “gets it”?

      I don’t understand why we need to push these two personas to the extreme to understand the point.

      I certainly wouldn’t categorize Lebron and Kobe in those two ways.

    30. thenamestsam

      @ Kevin. Very fair point, and in general I think I try to look at those the same way I would for people in other jobs, although I readily acknowledge that the scrutiny, the compensation etc. make it very different from the jobs most people (myself included) hold.

      That said: For #s 1 & 2 I try to hold athletes to the same standards I hold myself. No one is perfect. Sometimes I call in sick when I physically could work, and sometimes I show up to work in shall we say less than optimal working condition. Do it occasionally and I understand it. Do it all the time and eventually you deserve to get fired. Same standard for players.

      3 and 4 I’m not seeing the clear analogue to a typical job situation.

      5 and 6 are where things start to get complicated. Honestly I would criticize a coworker if I thought he only cared about getting ahead at the extent of the firm, the same way I’d criticize a player if I thought he didn’t care about the team. That said, I don’t think this happens nearly as often as people accuse it of happening. I think that guys “going for their own stats” almost always truly believe that it’s in the team’s best interest for them to do their thing. That’s a conversation for another day.

      Anyway #6 is the trickiest by far. Obviously we’d never criticize ourselves for changing jobs because we can’t stand our coworkers or our bosses. We consider that par for the course. But we do kill athletes for demanding trades etc. I guess the difference to me is the set contract. If players leave their teams in free agency I personally will never ding them for that. Everyone should be able to choose where they work to some extent. But once you sign a contract I think you’re obligated to work for that employer even if you don’t like them. That’s true in basketball or anyweher else. So I think the same standard can be applied.

    31. thenamestsam

      ruruland: I don’t understand why we need to push these two personas to the extreme to understand the point.

      I certainly wouldn’t categorize Lebron and Kobe in those two ways.

      I don’t think I pushed them that far beyond the truth. Certainly some exaggeration to make a point, but I do think the contrast is there for anyone to see and I think most of what I wrote is pretty darn accurate.

    32. Kevin McElroy

      thenamestam,

      Pretty fair responses. I would think the analogue for 3 and 4 would basically be the idea of “I work hard when I’m at work but when I leave the office that’s MY time.” Which I think is something that we see as admirable in most professions but we think of athletes who do that as selfish.

      All in all I think there is a spectrum where your level of fame, compensation, and (importantly) the fact that you basically got to do the job you always wanted to do while most everyone else has to settle for something less, means that you can be held to a somewhat higher standard. But that doesn’t mean that guys have to be expected to do things that are morally problematic regardless of context. Like, I think we can all agree that if LeBron hired someone to break Paul Pierce’s kneecaps before game 6, that would be inexcusable even though it would clearly represent a MAJOR commitment to winning. So even for the people who prefer the Jordan/Kobe type, there is a line somewhere.

    33. johnlocke

      Yes…Fans are like emotional and financial shareholders in a team. For our time, emotional investment and yes DOLLARS, we expect results. We get annoyed in part when 1) product that is clearly superior is not performing to its full potential and 2) when management makes terrible acquisitions that hamper the team financially w/o producing the requisite results. I’d like to have a product that I can believe in and root for and that reaches its full potential by any non-illegal means necessary. While a bit crude, I think that that explanation partially explains the fan/player relationship better. Landry Fields — seems to be an intelligent, nice guy, but lot of fans this year b/c of lackluster results — it’s not about who I’d rather work with or be friends with — it’s first who produces results…..then after that who you best relate to, reminds you of you, is from your town, blah, blah.

      Kevin McElroy:
      thenamestsam,

      All of these things have pretty basic analogues to the way all of our jobs work but are viewed very differently when the worker in question is a pro athlete.You have to do one of two things: 1) insist that their jobs are just like everyone else’s and thus people should not be critical of players who do things on that list or 2) admit that their jobs are not quite like everyone else’s.I’m not saying which of these is right — and maybe your point is that there is a line somewhere along the spectrum that represents a happy medium — but I don’t think you can just say “you wouldn’t want to do this at your job” and that’s the end of the argument.

    34. ruruland

      thenamestsam: I don’t think I pushed them that far beyond the truth. Certainly some exaggeration to make a point, but I do think the contrast is there for anyone to see and I think most of what I wrote is pretty darn accurate.

      Yeah, there is a contrast for sure. I guess I would prefer sociopaths/megalomaniacs in sports, where they can least endanger the economy. Sports were made for sociopaths, actually.

      And Lebron might be more of a megalomaniac than a sociopath.

      Kobe is less self-obsessed than Lebron is, by far.

    35. Kevin McElroy

      I think it would be pretty difficult to make the argument that LeBron is more megalomaniacal than even the average person with his talent in any field.

    36. ruruland

      Kevin McElroy:
      I think it would be pretty difficult to make the argument that LeBron is more megalomaniacal than even the average person with his talent in any field.

      Well, that might be a different discussion altogether.

    37. Kevin McElroy

      ruruland: Well, that might be a different discussion altogether.

      Indeed. Let’s not have it. But I think calling him a megalomaniac goes a bit far and calling him a sociopath seems to have zero basis in reality.

    38. ruruland

      Kevin McElroy: Indeed.Let’s not have it.But I think calling him a megalomaniac goes a bit far and calling him a sociopath seems to have zero basis in reality.

      You don’t think Kobe has sociopathic qualities? You know that something like 3-5% of the human population demonstrates enough of these qualities to be deemed sociopathic?

      Kobe has all the qualities. Sociopaths aren’t necessarily evil, either.

    39. Kevin McElroy

      ruruland: You don’t think Kobe has sociopathic qualities? You know that something like 3-5% of the human population demonstrates enough of these qualities to be deemed sociopathic?

      Kobe has all the qualities. Sociopaths aren’t necessarily evil, either.

      LeBron was the subject of that post.

    40. ruruland

      Kevin McElroy: LeBron was the subject of that post.

      Right, and the Lebron caricatures are pretty old at this point. I’d say they ‘re mostly true though, fwiw.

    41. BigBlueAL

      Whatever happened to just rooting for your favorite team because watching sports is fun?? I will always root for the Yankees and Knicks because as a little kid living in NY I loved playing and watching those sports and those were the local teams I watched and naturally became a fan of. Too simple??

    42. Kevin McElroy

      BigBlueAL:
      Whatever happened to just rooting for your favorite team because watching sports is fun??I will always root for the Yankees and Knicks because as a little kid living in NY I loved playing and watching those sports and those were the local teams I watched and naturally became a fan of.Too simple??

      WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITCHHHH!!!!

    43. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      BigBlueAL:
      Whatever happened to just rooting for your favorite team because watching sports is fun??I will always root for the Yankees and Knicks because as a little kid living in NY I loved playing and watching those sports and those were the local teams I watched and naturally became a fan of.Too simple??

      Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for McDonald’s to steal business from the mom ‘n’ pop family-owned restaurant down the block.

      Maybe things were different in ’96, but the 2012 Yankees sure aren’t hard to hate.

    44. BigBlueAL

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for McDonald’s to steal business from the mom ‘n’ pop family-owned restaurant down the block.

      Maybe things were different in ’96, but the 2012 Yankees sure aren’t hard to hate.

      I became a fan as a little kid in the late 80′s and I love and root for the 2012 Yankees as much as I did for the 1992 Yankees when Danny Tartabull was the big FA signing and winning 76 games was considered a good season and a sign of progress under rooking manager Buck Showalter.

      I guess that makes me a heartless, unsophisticated person but whatever :-)

    45. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I think you’re a myopic fanboy with a cognitive dissonance problem, able to unequivocally root for a set of players

      I place a lot of value in loyalty – loyalty to one’s family, friends, and yes, even teams. I started following the Knicks in the late 80s, and that decade of 1990 to about 2000 brought me so many great memories (and disappointments), not just because of the competition but because of the people I watched and cheered with, the times I had going out to watch the games with my brother or my buddies. I’m not going to jump ship on my team just because of a bad stretch, and I’m certainly never going to root against my chosen team except when it involves the twisted incentives of the lottery system and draft picks (which is really rooting FOR the team). If you want to call that being a myopic fanboy, then fine.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: a set of players either drafted or outbid on by a multimillion dollar corporation run by a rich, pampered shithead

      You know this statement pretty much describes about 28 out of the 30 NBA teams right? If you don’t want to root for a team that run/owned by people with serious character deficiencies, you’re pretty much SOL when it comes to professional or college sports, with very few (but notable) exceptions.

    46. BigBlueAL

      Heck even rooting for local high-school teams is tough with how corrupt many of those programs have become. Professional sports actually is the least corrupt leagues to root for compared to college and Im telling you even high-school.

    47. Kevin McElroy

      The Boston Red Sox, Toronto Blue Jays, Baltimore Orioles, Tampa Bay Rays, Minnesota Twins, Kansas City Royals, Chicago White Sox, Cleveland Indians, Detroit Tigers, Texas Rangers, Oakland Athletics, Seattle Mariners, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, Atlanta Braves, New York Mets, Philadelphia Phillies, Florida Marlins, Washington Nationals, St. Louis Cardinals, Cincinnati Reds, Chicago Cubs, Milwaukee Brewers, Houston Astros, Pittsburgh Pirates, San Francisco Giants, Los Angeles Dodgers, Arizona Diamondbacks, San Diego Padres, and Colorado Rockies: Exactly the same as “the mom ‘n’ pop family-owned restaurant down the block.”

      The New York Yankees: Mean people who think that the point of professional sports is to use your competitive advantages to try to outperform other teams.

    48. ruruland

      Frank: I place a lot of value in loyalty – loyalty to one’s family, friends, and yes, even teams. I started following the Knicks in the late 80s, and that decade of 1990 to about 2000 brought me so many great memories (and disappointments), not just because of the competition but because of the people I watched and cheered with, the times I had going out to watch the games with my brother or my buddies. I’m not going to jump ship on my team just because of a bad stretch, and I’m certainly never going to root against my chosen team except when it involves the twisted incentives of the lottery system and draft picks (which is really rooting FOR the team). If you want to call that being a myopic fanboy, then fine.

      You know this statement pretty much describes about 28 out of the 30 NBA teams right? If you don’t want to root for a team that run/owned by people with serious character deficiencies, you’re pretty much SOL when it comes to professional or college sports, with very few (but notable) exceptions.

      You can find a way to hate any organization in sports. Look at what OKC’s ownership did to the city of Seattle.

      And there’s clearly a line between being critical of a team and openly rooting against them and then harassing its fans.

      Far be it from me to define fanhood, but this seems to be the lobotomized version.

    49. ruruland

      BigBlueAL:
      Heck even rooting for local high-school teams is tough with how corrupt many of those programs have become.Professional sports actually is the least corrupt leagues to root for compared to college and Im telling you even high-school.

      100 percent agree. Revenue generating college athletics are much worse than pro sports.

    50. BigBlueAL

      I totally understand non-Yankee fans hating them, I have no problem with that. But if you think that someone like me who started loving the team when I was 6 years old just because I loved playing baseball at that age and the Yankees was the team my parents rooted for and took me all the time to watch at Yankee Stadium is going to stop rooting/liking them 26 years later because they make too much money and want to use that to their advantage you are kidding yourself.

    51. BigBlueAL

      ruruland: 100 percent agree. Revenue generating college athletics are much worse than pro sports.

      I dunno how it is in other states/cities but down here in Miami in the public high-school leagues/districts kids have to go to the school closest to where they live. The amount of schools who have had to forfeit state titles because eventually it is found that they had “illegal” players is mind-boggling.

      Not to mention the private schools who have no restrictions actually offer scholarships to kids to play for their school in freaking high-school.

    52. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Kevin McElroy:
      The Boston Red Sox, Toronto Blue Jays, Baltimore Orioles, Tampa Bay Rays, Minnesota Twins, Kansas City Royals, Chicago White Sox, Cleveland Indians, Detroit Tigers, Texas Rangers, Oakland Athletics, Seattle Mariners, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, Atlanta Braves, New York Mets, Philadelphia Phillies, Florida Marlins, Washington Nationals, St. Louis Cardinals, Cincinnati Reds, Chicago Cubs, Milwaukee Brewers, Houston Astros, Pittsburgh Pirates, San Francisco Giants, Los Angeles Dodgers, Arizona Diamondbacks, San Diego Padres, and Colorado Rockies: Exactly the same as “the mom ‘n’ pop family-owned restaurant down the block.”

      The New York Yankees: Mean people who think that the point of professional sports is to use your competitive advantages to try to outperform other teams.

      I’m not saying that all teams are the equivalent of the mom and pop shop, but when it comes to available resources, the Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates are most certainly that. And let’s not let the monolithic brand stand behind the ultra-conservative mantra of, “We’re not exploiting, we’re acting competitively!”

      It’s rooting for a naturally-endowed front-runner, plain and simple. If the goal is to make money, they’re doing an awfully good job. And I know New Yorkers love money more than anything, but does that mean we shouldn’t perceive what they do as competitively unfair? I mean, McDonald’s uses their (unethically achieved) competitive advantages to fuck farmers, small-business owners, and the health of their customers. But would you defend them under the guise of competitive spirit?

    53. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      BigBlueAL:
      Heck even rooting for local high-school teams is tough with how corrupt many of those programs have become.Professional sports actually is the least corrupt leagues to root for compared to college and Im telling you even high-school.

      If there’s one thing that you can love women’s sports for, it’s that most of the athletes know they’ll never be able to make a career out of it. Love of the game.

    54. BigBlueAL

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: If there’s one thing that you can love women’s sports for, it’s that most of the athletes know they’ll never be able to make a career out of it. Love of the game.

      Im waiting for the first lockout/strike in the WNBA lol

    55. d-mar

      BigBlueAL:
      I totally understand non-Yankee fans hating them, I have no problem with that.But if you think that someone like me who started loving the team when I was 6 years old just because I loved playing baseball at that age and the Yankees was the team my parents rooted for and took me all the time to watch at Yankee Stadium is going to stop rooting/liking them 26 years later because they make too much money and want to use that to their advantage you are kidding yourself.

      The Yankees were my one and only team growing up, and I had the bad timing to become a fan right after the glory years of the early 60′s and at the beginning of the Horace Clarke, Jerry Kenney, Fritz Peterson era. But I was as dedicated as a fan ever was, listening to or watching every single game of the season. So 1977 and 1978 were as sweet as it gets, and 1996 was almost as good considering they were down 2-0 to the mighty Braves. But I will admit, as the 90′s turned into the 00′s, I became less and less of a fan. I still loved the original core (Jeter, Rivera, Posada)but as they grabbed every single high priced free agent out there, including douches like Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson and A-Rod, it basically put me over the edge. Now I could care less whether they win or lose.

    56. JK47

      I’m a Mets fan. Mets-Knicks-Raiders. Talk about some cretinous ownership. At least Al Davis had the decency to finally croak.

    57. Owen

      Wow, people are hot today…

      Been away, still away, but a brief chime in…

      It’s interesting that this year more than any I can remember at KB, has been characterized by this argument about what it means to be a fan. Not something we have discussed that much over the years.

      Thcj – I wish Dolan were out just as much as you and Jon, but it ain’t happening,

      Ultimately, being a fan to me is not about the players, or about the franchise, but simply about the other fans. While I don’t wish well for the Dolan’s I think that loyal Knicks fans are entitled to a little relief from their suffering as opposed to a crappy twenty years…

    58. 2FOR18

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’m not saying that all teams are the equivalent of the mom and pop shop, but when it comes to available resources, the Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates are most certainly that. And let’s not let the monolithic brand stand behind the ultra-conservative mantra of, “We’re not exploiting, we’re acting competitively!”

      It’s rooting for a naturally-endowed front-runner, plain and simple. If the goal is to make money, they’re doing an awfully good job. And I know New Yorkers love money more than anything, but does that mean we shouldn’t perceive what they do as competitively unfair? I mean, McDonald’s uses their (unethically achieved) competitive advantages to fuck farmers, small-business owners, and the health of their customers. But would you defend them under the guise of competitive spirit?

      You left out Walmart and Big Oil from your template.

    59. max fisher-cohen

      Regarding the discussion about “rooting against the knicks:” Think about it in terms of a movie. Would you watch a movie with a plot along these lines?: Joe was born musclebound and with amazing reflexes. He got into boxing because he could beat everyone’s ass. He sexually harassed coworkers. He beat up random strangers on the street and took their money. He didn’t really listen to anyone’s advice and made a lot of mistakes when he boxed, but he was such a superior athletic specimen that he won the boxing title. The end.

      Or think about your own life. What is more important to you, that you get lucky or that you make the right choices? Would you rather die a poor man who was always good to others and made careful and wise choices, or would you prefer to live the blessed but “unexamined life,” one where you just sort of amble around and have things fall into your lap until your a multimillionaire with a fancy yacht and your own private island, only to end up dying of a heart attack in the VIP room of Scores’ strip club, the dancers indifferently stripping your wallet of cash before calling an ambulance?

      Sports are an analogy for life. I can root for a team because it’s not a human being, but what I root for FROM that team is for it to represent what is important to me. More than winning a championship (i.e. becoming a millionaire), I root for my team to have wisdom, passion, imagination both in management and roster.

      The great thing about sports is that, unlike in real life, luck is more marginalized, while skill and intelligent decision making are rewarded. It’s near impossible to win a championship simply through luck. Everyone has to make prudent “examined” decisions from management to players.

      MJ may have been a complete prick IRL, but within the scope of the rules of the game of basketball, he was Aristotle (not to take anything away from Shaq). Presti is Socrates. James Dolan is Jabba the Hut.

    60. formido

      Exactly right. He romanticizes it a little with the “dark places” stuff, but Lebron just doesn’t have that personality to destroy teams game-in and game-out, to play at his peak capacity all the time. It’s a testament to the wide gap in talent between him and everyone else that he can cruise, play smart basketball, and still dominate the NBA most of the time. That’s also part of his personality. Many players with his talent would never have realized how easy you can make the game by playing smart, because they’d want to leverage their talent to embarrass everyone one-on-one all the time. Like, oh, say, Kobe.

      But, the flip side is he can’t summon the Jordan demon at will. You can’t change peoples’ personalities and I think it’s hard for people to understand, not ever having been another person before, how much personality affects every decision you make. For Lebron to behave like Jordan or Kobe, he’d have to be a different person. He can do that sometimes, but it takes enormous psychic energy, the way it drains introverts to be at parties.

      It’s also interesting to note that the source of his greatest strength and his greatest weakness is his eagerness to please, which is explosively ironic given his famous middle finger to Cleveland–but of course the way it went down had more to do with his blind trust in his advisors and certain sports media…so, more irony. Afterward, he put up the indifferent, defensive, macho facade, but it would have been miraculous if he’d behaved any different once there was no going back.

      thenamestsam:
      http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2012/06/lebron-talk.html

      Wanted to post that up here. I found it one of the more interesting and on point things I’ve ever read about Lebron, and this from someone who really likes him a lot…

    61. ruruland

      And George Karl is my personal favorite, Diogenes.

      What a team represents is still about what you’ve been preconditioned to value, the qualities you seek out and the ones you ignore, your unique perception.

      Presti has also been extremely lucky. He works for an ownership group that ripped the heart out of a city because of greed. How is that different from the Knicks scumbag?

      I think you’ll be able to appreciate the Knicks roster for a lot of reasons. For one, it will be creatively put together. Two, it’s a mishmash of talent where each individual may have to contort their strengths some for it to work. Three, there are great individual stories up and down the roster — and that includes the two highest paid stars, both of whom love the city and seek redemption from its die-hard fans.

      I think next year you’re going to have all the ingredients for a really rootable team, one that in many ways has been assembled in a way that puts them at some disadvantage, but is also talented enough to pull it off.

      I saw this play out on a much less talented team in ’08/’09. If things go right in the off-season and they stay healthy, I have little doubt they can contend for a championship.

    62. johnlocke

      at this point, Miami not deserving (outplayed for most of last 4 games), but would be fun to see OKC versus Miami, Durant vs Lebron, Westbrook versus Wade, man.

    63. d-mar

      Being a Thunder supporter must be like hoops fan heaven – you’ve got the best team in the NBA, and your core big 3 are all in their early 20′s. Has to be incredibly sweet.

      Oh well, at least the Heat or the Celtics aren’t winning anything this year, and that’s about all we Knicks fans have.

    64. jon abbey

      d-mar:
      Being a Thunder supporter must be like hoops fan heaven – you’ve got the best team in the NBA, and your core big 3 are all in their early 20?s.

      big 4, Ibaka too.

    65. Loathing

      Brian Cronin:
      I want the Heat to make the NBA Finals if only so we won’t have to ever hear about how small forward-led teams can never win titles.

      It may not seem like it, but Pierce is STILL the C’s leader.

    66. Brian Cronin

      It may not seem like it, but Pierce is STILL the C’s leader.

      Pierce is still very good, but come on, Rondo is the driving force of this current team. But if the Celtics win the title, then I will agree with you so that the small forward thing can still work. ;)

    67. Robtachi

      How about simply rooting for an organization – despite whatever greedy ownership or management fuck-ups – because you have some damn pride in where you’re from? I root for the Knicks, Rangers, Yankees and Giants because they are New York teams and I am a New Yorker, through and through, and I have pride in that. Hell, I’ve actually considered becoming a Nets fan despite giving precisely zero microns of a shit about them for 25 years simply because they’re going to be Brooklyn’s first team since the Dodgers broke everyone’s hearts, and I take so much pride in where I come from and who that makes me. I was pretty sure this is how almost all sports fans determine who they root for; where you’re from and what that means to you and how it affects who you are. Players, management, even ownership come and go, but for the lucky ones like us, the teams stay and do what they do to represent your home. My father grew up blocks away from Ebbets Field and was a diehard Dodgers fan, absolutely despised the Yankees. But the Dodgers skipped town for greener (dollars) pastures and, to him, turned their back on the place he called home. The Yankees still represented the city, though, so he became a Yankees fan, and I don’t think he should have to apologize for or explain that choice, because it’s an obvious one.

      You don’t root for the name on the back of the uniform. You don’t root for the name on the logo. You root for your team, from your home, because you’re proud. If you’re not proud of it, or of them, you root for someone else. Rooting against your supposedly unscrupulous home team while claiming to root for the vague idea of the team is a completely ludicrous abstract that is too naively moralistic to be of any real productive use.

    68. massive

      It’s almost unfathomable that the Heat, a team with Dwyane Wade and LeBron James. are not the NBA’s best team. It’s crazy how good OKC really is. Sam Presti did a hell of a job (and he almost landed Tyson Chandler, too).

    69. jon abbey

      dunno, I think being a sports fan should bring you pleasure, and there’s any number of ways to try to accomplish that. I’m a New Yorker through and through also, but I’d be just as much of a New Yorker if I rooted for other teams or for my favorite players or for a different team each year depending on who I found entertaining.

      life is hard enough, sports should bring you joy in some way, and like with everything else in the world, people should stop being prescriptive: “this is the way of the true fan.”. meh to that.

    70. Robtachi

      jon abbey:
      dunno, I think being a sports fan should bring you pleasure, and there’s any number of ways to try to accomplish that. I’m a New Yorker through and through also, but I’d be just as much of a New Yorker if I rooted for other teams or for my favorite players or for a different team each year depending on who I found entertaining.

      life is hard enough, sports should bring you joy in some way, and like with everything else in the world, people should stop being prescriptive: “this is the way of the true fan.”. meh to that.

      I wasn’t necessarily trying to say that you have to root for your hometown team, in fact I did say that if you’re displeased with them, by all means find someone else to root for. What made no sense to me was the idea that you could root against your hometown team who you supposedly also root for. It’s a contradiction that is just not based in sports fandom reality.

    71. Bison

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I mean, McDonald’s uses their (unethically achieved) competitive advantages to fuck farmers, small-business owners, and the health of their customers. But would you defend them under the guise of competitive spirit?

      At bottom, I think the need is to hold every sane adult accountable, even the most powerful. As a society we have lost track of that — which is largely why we are in the second Gilded Age of monumental corruption, featuring the banksters, who have actually been rewarded with trillions of our tax dollars for their epic failures.

      The whole sports world — yes, all of the major and minor leagues combined — is microscopic compared to even one of the mega banks, but if we are ever to recover our society from these criminals, we may as well start here as anywhere else, by changing the attitudes of the population at large. Hence I have some sympathy with your attitude that you would rather the Knicks lose for twenty years in a row than see a rotten owner rewarded.

      Accountability takes many forms; a boycott of incompetence should be one of them.

    72. ruruland

      Brian Cronin: Pierce is still very good, but come on, Rondo is the driving force of this current team. But if the Celtics win the title, then I will agree with you so that the small forward thing can still work. ;)

      Rondo has been the best player on that team for some time now and I’d make the argument that he’s been close to Durant and Lebron in terms of impact this postseason.

      WHat’s funny, Owen, is that the last two years he’s had a WS/48 of just .121 and .126.

      And in the playoffs, despite runs every year, he’s never topped .131 WS/48. His meager .167 playoff WS/48 this year (compared to his real level of play) isn’t even top 10 among playoff competitors.

      That’s how silly that stat can be.

      It completely undervalues his assists, penetration– which create the ball movement the Celtics offense relies on, and completely overvalues the fact he doesn’t have a great efg%, ft% and doesn’t shoot 3s.

      His +/- profile is among the best in the league.

      Yes, he’s aided by the fact the Celtics have perfect floor balance most of the time, but their ability to create shots would be greatly diminished without him.

      His net effect on teammates is dramatic. Sure, KG’s usage has gone down some in Boston, but he’s been much more efficient offensively there then he was in Minnesota despite diminished physical ability.

      It’s also evident with Pierce’s efficiency improvements, and you can see it in his shot distribution and assisted field goal %,

    73. ruruland

      jon abbey: big 4, Ibaka too.

      They’ll likely lose Harden who’s on record implying he wants to get his real value and a chance to star.

      He’s so essential to their success I think he’ll be very hard to replace, and who knows how it changes their window.

    74. ruruland

      How does the Berri community explain how a team with the 12th best SRS in league is on the verge of beating the team with the 4th best SRS (and by a significant margin over Boston, 2.26 to 5.72)?

      There’s this: ……………..who draw from deep reservoirs of pride and experience, who trust each other implicitly, who, as Allen explained, “know what we want to do, where we want the ball, have an idea of the plays we should call. We’ve been together so long, you see us in the huddle at a timeout exchanging ideas.”

    75. Brian Cronin

      It’s a real puzzler. I can’t think of any reason why Miami would not be playing as well as they did during the regular season. It’s not like 1/3 of their Big Three has been missing.

    76. Marcel

      Well, Berri can be intransigent with his stats and people here seems to hate him, but his WP have a much better correlation with wins than WS.

      Taking this in consideration, the best Celtics player is Rondo with .211.

      That’s superstar level production.

      Regarding the playoffs and SRS, it’s a seven game series. Any team with a good week can beat other with a bad one. Anyone here would bet on Boston in a best of 82 games against the Heat?

    77. Kevin McElroy

      Brian Cronin:
      It’s a real puzzler. I can’t think of any reason why Miami would not be playing as well as they did during the regular season. It’s not like 1/3 of their Big Three has been missing.

      This.

    78. ruruland

      Marcel:
      Well, Berri can be intransigent with his stats and people here seems to hate him, but his WP have a much better correlation with wins than WS.

      Taking this in consideration, the best Celtics player is Rondo with .211.

      That’s superstar level production.

      Regarding the playoffs and SRS, it’s a seven game series. Any team with a good week can beat other with a bad one. Anyone here would bet on Boston in a best of 82 games against the Heat?

      Right. SO it’s random lmao.

    79. ruruland

      Brian Cronin:
      It’s a real puzzler. I can’t think of any reason why Miami would not be playing as well as they did during the regular season. It’s not like 1/3 of their Big Three has been missing.

      That’s it though? Remember, the Heat lost their last 3 regular season games against Boston (I’m quite sure) with Bosh.

      It’s definitely had a big impact, but I don’t think it statistically closes the gap between the two teams.

    80. Kevin McElroy

      ruruland: That’s it though? Remember, the Heat lost their last 3 regular season games against Boston (I’m quite sure) with Bosh.

      Actually LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all sat out the last regular season meeting so throw that out. The game before that all three played and the Celtics won by 8 in Miami behind 61% shooting and 64% on threes. They all count but it’s hard to say that’s the true value differential between the two teams unless you think the Celtics are generally capable of shooting that way against Miami. The one before that Boston crushed Miami by 19 in Boston, holding them to very poor shooting numbers. So good on the Celtics.

      ruruland:

      It’s definitely had a big impact, but I don’t think it statistically closes the gap between the two teams.

      The series is currently 3-2 Boston and their three wins have been by 10, 2, and 4 points. You REALLY don’t think Chris Bosh closes that statistical gap?

    81. ruruland

      Kevin McElroy: Actually LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all sat out the last regular season meeting so throw that out.The game before that all three played and the Celtics won by 8 in Miami behind 61% shooting and 64% on threes.They all count but it’s hard to say that’s the true value differential between the two teams unless you think the Celtics are generally capable of shooting that way against Miami.The one before that Boston crushed Miami by 19 in Boston, holding them to very poor shooting numbers.So good on the Celtics.

      The series is currently 3-2 Boston and their three wins have been by 10, 2, and 4 points.You REALLY don’t think Chris Bosh closes that statistical gap?

      And one of Miami’s wins was in OT. IDK. Bosh is more important than Bradley, but it’s still diminishing returns with Bosh.

    82. Kevin McElroy

      ruruland: And one of Miami’s wins was in OT. IDK. Bosh is more important than Bradley, but it’s still diminishing returns with Bosh.

      One of Miami’s wins was in OT — WITHOUT Bosh. That’s the whole point. If he’s worth 4 points a game over his replacement — and consider how much his replacements suck — then Miami would be 4-1 in this series with him. Obviously that’s too neat of a formula but I do not think it’s unrealistic to say Miami might have already won this series if not for the Bosh injury.

    83. ruruland

      Kevin McElroy: One of Miami’s wins was in OT — WITHOUT Bosh.That’s the whole point.If he’s worth 4 points a game over his replacement — and consider how much his replacements suck — then Miami would be 4-1 in this series with him.Obviously that’s too neat of a formula but I do not think it’s unrealistic to say Miami might have already won this series if not for the Bosh injury.

      Perhaps, but this is similar to what Dallas did to Miami last year in terms of patient offense based on their key offensive players having played together for a long time.

      In both cases the Heat were far and away statistically superior.

      I said Bosh was probably the second most important player on Miami’s team before the playoffs started. His +/- profile is just as impressive as the other two.

      The argument I’m making is that the Heat, despite missing Bosh, have underperformed statistically in the playoffs while the Celtics have overperformed.

      Surely it’s not just random.

    84. jon abbey

      not sure I really buy that, I think Indy was a better team than Philly, and Boston had more trouble with Philly than Miami did with Indy. I think if Bosh plays the whole series, this one is probably Miami in 5 like last year.

    85. ruruland

      Well, it looks like Lebron might have the greatest single game playoff performance of all time tonight.

      Remember though, Bradley is a big loss for Boston, too. And Rondo was banged up last year. He’s the biggest difference from last year.

    86. PC

      What a thread to read now. Lebron doesn’t have it in him. 3 straight MVPS, took his wack-ass team to the finals when he was 8 years old, and has put up some of the most epic playoff performances we have ever seen.

    87. jon abbey

      ruruland:
      Well, it looks like Lebron might have the greatest single game playoff performance of all time tonight.

      Remember though, Bradley is a big loss for Boston, too. And Rondo was banged up last year. He’s the biggest difference from last year.

      Wade hasn’t looked like himself for big chunks of the playoffs. he had a nice burst after getting his knee drained a few weeks ago but that seems to have worn off more recently.

      Rondo is amazing. there must be a parallel universe where Isiah drafted him instead of Balkman, and then LeBron signed here, and we got to watch them together every night. I wish I lived there.

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