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Monday, November 24, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Jul 25 2012)

  • [New York Post] Lin says he didn’t ask for more $ (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 02:11:26 -0500)
    Jeremy Lin says not to blame him for the surprisingly quick end to his Knicks career.
    In an interview with the San Jose Mercury News, Lin said he had nothing to do with the Rockets’ decision to restructure their offer sheet with Lin, which raised the value of the contract…

  • [New York Post] Knicks sign shooting guard (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 02:11:26 -0500)
    The Knicks addressed one of their biggest remaining needs yesterday when they agreed to a one-year deal with free-agent shooting guard Ronnie Brewer.
    “New York Knicks lets get it!!!â? Brewer tweeted yesterday afternoon.
    Brewer’s agent, Henry Thomas, confirmed the move, which gives the Knicks a second veteran at the…

  • [New York Times] U.S. 100, Spain 78: 2012 London Games — U.S. Men’s Basketball Team Waiting for the Real Games to Begin (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 05:20:05 GMT)
    The U.S. men’s basketball team easily beat Spain in a warm-up game on Tuesday ahead of its Olympics opener on Saturday against France.

  • [New York Times] Lin Follows Yao in More Ways Than One (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 05:24:05 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin considers the retired N.B.A. star Yao Ming a mentor, and having joined Yao’s former team, Lin can help the Houston Rockets continue their popularity in China.

  • [New York Times] American Strength Begins in Defense: Paul (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 02:37:33 GMT)
    Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James can all rack up the points, but the ability to stop opponents scoring is what separates the U.S. Olympic team from the rest, according to point guard Chris Paul.

  • [New York Times] Spain Coach Sees Positives in Defeat to U.S. (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 01:37:32 GMT)
    Spain gained some useful pointers as to how they might overcome the United States if they meet at the London Olympics despite Tuesday’s drubbing at the hands of the 2008 gold medalists, coach Sergio Scariolo said.

  • [New York Times] U.S. Rally to Rout Spain in Warm-Up (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 01:40:32 GMT)
    Spain stood tall early but sharp-shooting Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James helped the U.S. team overcome a shaky start for a 100-78 win Tuesday in a potential preview of the gold-medal game at the London Olympics.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Knicks Add Another Point Guard (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 01:07:59 GMT)
    The Argentine point guard Pablo Prigion is known for his passing and his ability to run pick-and-roll plays. He is expected to help the Knicks off the bench.

  • [New York Daily News] Jeremy allowed Linsanity craze to get to his head (Wed, 25 Jul 2012 01:12:21 GMT)
    Former Knick Jeremy Lin went from a no-name couch-surfer to an international superstar overnight. So it’s only natural that the phenomenon that became known as Linsanity got to his head.

  • 130 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Jul 25 2012)

    1. Juany8

      er: Nice hit piece on melo today on yahoo sports.com

      Shouldn’t Deron Williams really be the focus of this article? He’s been much worse in New Jersey than in Utah (where he was involved in kicking out Jerry Sloan) while Melo has at least been better with the Knicks than he was in Denver. Even James Harden is trying to show he’s a legit star after crapping himself in the Finals (It was fitting the only game the Thunder won came when they sat Harden out for the entire fourth and proceeded to blow out the Heat)

    2. ephus

      Articles like Woj’s piece in Yahoo today feed the animosity between the press and players. There is literally not a single new fact reported, but instead it is a subjective attack on Anthony’s leadership skills. The thesis is that no one should take anything positive for the Knicks from anything ‘Melo accomplishes in the Olympics, because he can only succeed if he is not the main focus of a team.

      I hope I get to see the article Woj writes if the Knicks finally win a championship with ‘Melo as the leader. Not because I love ‘Melo, but because I want the Knicks to raise a banner.

    3. bobneptune

      er:
      Nice hit piece on melo today on yahoo sports.com

      Is speaking the objective truth now called a “hit piece” here in knickland?

      Numerous points were raise. He’s not always in shape. He doesn’t give a crap about defense. He disregards the coach’s orders and does what he wants.He was clearly jealous of the attention Lin got. He doesn’t lead in a positive way.Which did you object to?

      He also mentioned he was a great scorer and a match-up nightmare.

    4. Frank

      The trouble with Woj is that he really relishes taking a little string of a story and then creating a whole cozy (and ALWAYS controversial) narrative behind it. As far as I can tell, 99% of what he editorializes comes directly from his own head as opposed to any actual reportable facts.

      Whatever – like ephus said, nothing to see here, nothing new. It’s not too late in Melo’s career to become a leader. For pete’s sake, Lebron is basically the same age and just this past year looked like he came into himself – and it took basically an asteroid-type evolutionary pressure post-“The Decision” to force him into some introspection.

      The trouble with articles like this is that they are all linkbait – Isola/Berman-style – and other writers are taking notice. Ken Berger is the most recent to go the melodramatic route, when prior to the last year he was a pretty measured read. That’s why it’s such a loss to have guys like Howard Beck leave the beat (although it sure seems like he still writes 50% Knicks stuff). Hahn still has it, but unfortunately you can never tell what influence being an MSG employee has over what he writes. It seems like he’s trying to be impartial but writing from the inside of Dolan’s empire definitely makes that impartiality a concern.

    5. Frank

      The other thing – I seem to remember a guy named Michael Jordan who was accused of being selfish, not a team player etc. etc. until his late 20s. It’s not too late for Melo to take the next step – show commitment on both ends of the floor, come into camp in the best shape possible (and for Pete’s sake, stop talking about how awesome a job you’re doing getting in shape etc. Lead by example, not by words.) The clock is ticking though.

    6. Nick C.

      Really. I don’t recall that about Jordan. Definitely the scores too much (maybe that’s the same thing just more PC). But Jordan was all-defense and DPOY by 87-88 which was his 3rd year post missing post of his 2nd season with injury.

    7. bobneptune

      Frank:
      The other thing – I seem to remember a guy named Michael Jordan who was accused of being selfish, not a team player etc. etc. until his late 20s. It’s not too late for Melo to take the next step – show commitment on both ends of the floor, come into camp in the best shape possible (and for Pete’s sake, stop talking about how awesome a job you’re doing getting in shape etc. Lead by example, not by words.)The clock is ticking though.

      You really want to compare Jordan with melo on anything?

      Jordan’s first 4 seasons (85-86 he only played 18 games) his ws/48 were .213, .160, ,247 and .308. This was when he was in full chucking mode with few other options offensively. Still with the chucking he was playing a great statistical all around game.

      Melo’s lifetime WS/48 is .129 Chew on that for a while before you ever compare the 2 again.

    8. d-mar

      bobneptune: Is speaking the objective truth now called a “hit piece” here in knickland?

      Numerous points were raise.He’s not always in shape. He doesn’t give a crap about defense. He disregards the coach’s orders and does what he wants.He was clearly jealous of the attention Lin got. He doesn’t lead in a positive way.Which did you object to?

      He also mentioned he was a great scorer and a match-up nightmare.

      Can we please stop with the tired “Melo doesn’t give a crap about defense” BS? Yes, he’s not an elite defender, he’s not LeBron, but watch a few games and tell me that his man is torching him because he “doesn’t give a crap about defense” Where is the evidence that he’s a poor defender? If there’s a criticism of Melo from last season, it’s that he shot the ball like crap for much of the season. Oh, and he also passed the ball to wide open brickers like Fields and Douglas, I guess that was poor decision making.

    9. er

      Jordan comp is dumb…..and I don’t really disagree with alotta melo critisisims……I agree with d mar that he has gotten to the point where he is an underrated defender

      My main point was whatt the hell was the purpose of this article other than to bring the guy down after a good game

    10. er

      Jordan comp is dumb…..and I don’t really disagree with alotta melo criticisms……I agree with d mar that he has gotten to the point where he is an underrated defender

      My main point was whatt the hell was the purpose of this article other than to bring the guy down after a good game

    11. ephus

      My real complaints about Carmelo Anthony during the regular season last year:

      1. Did not have the stamina to sustain maximum effort for the entire time he was on the floor.

      2. Was easily distracted by bad officiating. There were numerous times when he was slow getting back on defense because he felt he was fouled on the offensive end.

      3. Lacked concentration. The most egregious example was the sideline inbounds pass to the other team, but his mind clearly wandered throughout the season.

      4. Poor elevation, leading to decreased efficiency around the rim.

      It seemed as if each of these problems was tied to a lack of conditioning, as fatigue made him easily distracted. I know that ‘Melo’s trainer would claim that it was the result of the groin injury. Either way, ‘Melo has to be fully engaged for 35 minutes per game if the Knicks are going to reach their potential.

    12. Juany8

      ephus: My real complaints about Carmelo Anthony during the regular season last year:1. Did not have the stamina to sustain maximum effort for the entire time he was on the floor. 2. Was easily distracted by bad officiating. There were numerous times when he was slow getting back on defense because he felt he was fouled on the offensive end.3. Lacked concentration. The most egregious example was the sideline inbounds pass to the other team, but his mind clearly wandered throughout the season.4. Poor elevation, leading to decreased efficiency around the rim.It seemed as if each of these problems was tied to a lack of conditioning, as fatigue made him easily distracted. I know that ‘Melo’s trainer would claim that it was the result of the groin injury. Either way, ‘Melo has to be fully engaged for 35 minutes per game if the Knicks are going to reach their potential.

      All valid complaints about Anthony, and a much more reasonable take on Melo’s problems than Woj’s piece above. Let’s also stop talking about wht Melo did with Denver, both his (shortened) seasons with the Knicks he has posted a better WS48 than any he ever had in Denver. Considering that most people would agree last year went absolutely terrible for everyone, there’s certainly some signs that increased focus and conditioning from Melo could push him into consistently elite levels. He still won’t be as good as Lebron, but a motivated Melo can defend him better than just about anyone in the league, while Brewer has locked down Wade several times in the past few years (check out his playoff splits from last year, where Wade was the best player on the Heat every playoff series except against Chicago, where he sucked) Throw in Chandler and it’s starting to look like the Knicks match up uniquely well with Miami

    13. ephus

      Watching Lebron yesterday against Spain, it is clear that he has committed to fronting the post as a preferred strategy. He shut down ‘Melo in the playoffs, and was effective in the other series. Pau Gasol showed one effective counter-measure, but the Knicks need to be prepared.

      Fortunately, the acquisition of Camby provides more ammo to fight Lebron fronting ‘Melo. Camby is an excellent passer out of the high post, which is one of the most effective tools to fight fronting. If ‘Melo cuts to the basket when Camby catches the ball, he should have many easy lay-up opportunities. Lebron and ‘Melo actually ran this to perfection yesterday.

    14. johnlocke

      Lots of these articles were written about Lebron too, it comes with the territory — not that I agree with it. Now that Lebron has won his championship, Wade has won his second, Melo is associated with these guys b/c they were in the same draft, so he is going to have these articles going all season long and into the playoffs. The whole leader versus not leader stuff — don’t know where that’s coming from, although he has been bitten by his irregular commitment to defense. Deron Williams and Chris Paul are the only other superstar peers in his age group (27-28) and Chris Paul is a media darling, who’s known as a ball-hawking defensive player and unselfish. Deron Williams ran his coach out of Utah, but because he was in Utah for so long I think he went undiscussed by the media. That will probably change for Deron this upcoming season, but I think Melo is a hate him or love him kind of guy, Deron is more blah, and Paul is a love him, love him kind of guy.

      ephus:
      Articles like Woj’s piece in Yahoo today feed the animosity between the press and players.There is literally not a single new fact reported, but instead it is a subjective attack on Anthony’s leadership skills.The thesis is that no one should take anything positive for the Knicks from anything ‘Melo accomplishes in the Olympics, because he can only succeed if he is not the main focus of a team.

      I hope I get to see the article Woj writes if the Knicks finally win a championship with ‘Melo as the leader. Not because I love ‘Melo, but because I want the Knicks to raise a banner.

    15. Juany8

      ephus: Watching Lebron yesterday against Spain, it is clear that he has committed to fronting the post as a preferred strategy. He shut down ‘Melo in the playoffs, and was effective in the other series. Pau Gasol showed one effective counter-measure, but the Knicks need to be prepared.Fortunately, the acquisition of Camby provides more ammo to fight Lebron fronting ‘Melo. Camby is an excellent passer out of the high post, which is one of the most effective tools to fight fronting. If ‘Melo cuts to the basket when Camby catches the ball, he should have many easy lay-up opportunities. Lebron and ‘Melo actually ran this to perfection yesterday.

      Kidd also helps alot, having a point guard who can consitently get the Melo when he’s in good position down low should help quite a bit. Last year, Baron was the only guard on the team capable of executing even simple entry passes to the post on a consistent basis.

    16. ephus

      Having Kidd will help get the ball to ‘Melo in the post against Miami, but only because Kidd understands that you have to swing the ball to create a passing lane (or lob over the top of the front). When the ball swings, the recipient of the pass has to look for Melo cutting to the basket, or for the man left open when the defense rotates to protect the rim.

      Felton can help also, if he penetrates when ‘Melo is fronted. Once the ball gets below the fronting defender, there should be layup available for someone.

      In the playoffs, New York did none of those things, but instead let ‘Melo fight for position for too long, and then got him the ball in bad position late in the shot clock.

    17. Juany8

      johnlocke: Lots of these articles were written about Lebron too, it comes with the territory — not that I agree with it. Now that Lebron has won his championship, Wade has won his second, Melo is associated with these guys b/c they were in the same draft, so he is going to have these articles going all season long and into the playoffs. The whole leader versus not leader stuff — don’t know where that’s coming from, although he has been bitten by his irregular commitment to defense. Deron Williams and Chris Paul are the only other superstar peers in his age group (27-28) and Chris Paul is a media darling, who’s known as a ball-hawking defensive player and unselfish. Deron Williams ran his coach out of Utah, but because he was in Utah for so long I think he went undiscussed by the media. That will probably change for Deron this upcoming season, but I think Melo is a hate him or love him kind of guy, Deron is more blah, and Paul is a love him, love him kind of guy.

      Chris Paul has only ever won 2 playoff series. Both times, they were eliminated by a team that went on to lose in the very next round. He also lost a game by 50 points in the playoffs against Melo’s Nuggets. I think Paul is better than Melo, but he’s overrated as hell, often being thrown about with names like Howard, Lebron, and Durant as one of the very best players in the league.

      I can’t imagine how anyone would attack Melo for his inconsistent effort then praise Williams as a real star. The guy just flat out wasn’t trying hard last season and has been mediocre ever since he got to Jersey. Not sure how adding an aging Gerald Wallace and Joe Johnson is going to make that big a difference. No one on the Nets is even as good defensively as Carmelo Anthony, much less players like Lebron, Garnett, Chandler, and Noah.

    18. Juany8

      ephus: Having Kidd will help get the ball to ‘Melo in the post against Miami, but only because Kidd understands that you have to swing the ball to create a passing lane (or lob over the top of the front). When the ball swings, the recipient of the pass has to look for Melo cutting to the basket, or for the man left open when the defense rotates to protect the rim. Felton can help also, if he penetrates when ‘Melo is fronted. Once the ball gets below the fronting defender, there should be layup available for someone. In the playoffs, New York did none of those things, but instead let ‘Melo fight for position for too long, and then got him the ball in bad position late in the shot clock.

      Lol in the playoffs Mike Bibby started game 5. Melo still went off though, and if he hadn’t sucked in game 3 the Knicks might have had a game 6 at the Garden. I think a healthy Knicks team is neck and neck with healthy Chicago and Boston as the next tier of contenders in the East. A few lucky breaks and the Knicks could easily find themselves in the ECF. Still don’t think they beat Miami, although I do think they can match up with them defensively better than any team in the league if both teams go small (which it seems like Miami is interested in doing)

    19. johnlocke

      I agree with most of what you say, but disagree with a couple points. In what way do you think Chris Paul is overrated? he’s definitely the best pure point guard in the game right now. He’s compared to Howard and Lebron, b/c they are also the best at their respective positions. We can have the debate about Paul, Rondo, Rose, Williams and Westbrooke, but for me he has no weakness in his game whereas all the others do, and doesn’t turn the ball over. Anway, don’t want to rehash that one, since we already had htat debate once. I’ll give you this – Deron is not a very good defender (insert video of Lin burning him in his debut, but Gerald Wallace is definitely a better defensive player than Melo, no question. Assuming you just forgot about him.

      What was your point about Garnett, Chandler, Lebron and Noah? Surely, you’re not saying Melo is their collective equal on defense…

      Second, Melo is not better at defense than every other player on the

      Juany8: Chris Paul has only ever won 2 playoff series. Both times, they were eliminated by a team that went on to lose in the very next round. He also lost a game by 50 points in the playoffs against Melo’s Nuggets. I think Paul is better than Melo, but he’s overrated as hell, often being thrown about with names like Howard, Lebron, and Durant as one of the very best players in the league.

      I can’t imagine how anyone would attack Melo for his inconsistent effort then praise Williams as a real star. The guy just flat out wasn’t trying hard last season and has been mediocre ever since he got to Jersey. Not sure how adding an aging Gerald Wallace and Joe Johnson is going to make that big a difference. No one on the Nets is even as good defensively as Carmelo Anthony, much less players like Lebron, Garnett, Chandler, and Noah.

    20. Frank

      bobneptune: You really want to compare Jordan with melo on anything?

      Jordan’s first 4 seasons (85-86 he only played 18 games) his ws/48 were .213, .160, ,247 and .308. This was when he was in full chucking mode with few other options offensively. Still with the chucking he was playing a great statistical all around game.

      Melo’s lifetime WS/48 is .129 Chew on that for a while before you ever compare the 2 again.

      First of all, you’re not my father so don’t talk/write to me like you are. It’s amazing how some people treat others in this forum – I guess is it’s the internet/anonymous thing that lets people think they can talk to people in a way that would get them punched in the mouth if they did it in person. True colors, I guess.

      Second, nowhere in my post did I compare the two as players. Obviously Jordan is the superior player on both sides of the ball. But I think you are old enough to remember that MANY people said that all Jordan cared about was scoring, how his teammates disliked him, etc. etc. It was IN RESPONSE to criticism that he poured all his energy into becoming DPOY etc and basically saying “F you” to any critic that ever dared say he had any weakness in his game. Melo hasn’t really shown that super-elite level of competitive fire yet (ie. I’ll prove you wrong 100x over and then rub your face in the dirt afterward) – it’s possible that he has star-level competitive fire, but not that elite level that will push him to fully realize his potential.

    21. Juany8

      johnlocke: I agree with most of what you say, but disagree with a couple points. In what way do you think Chris Paul is overrated? he’s definitely the best pure point guard in the game right now. He’s compared to Howard and Lebron, b/c they are also the best at their respective positions. We can have the debate about Paul, Rondo, Rose, Williams and Westbrooke, but for me he has no weakness in his game whereas all the others do, and doesn’t turn the ball over. Anway, don’t want to rehash that one, since we already had htat debate once. I’ll give you this – Deron is not a very good defender (insert video of Lin burning him in his debut, but Gerald Wallace is definitely a better defensive player than Melo, no question. Assuming you just forgot about him.What was your point about Garnett, Chandler, Lebron and Noah? Surely, you’re not saying Melo is their collective equal on defense…Second, Melo is not better at defense than every other player on the

      Actually I think that at this point of their respective careers, Melo is a better defender than Wallace. Either way, the Nets have nobody that would be considered elite defensively (only Wallace is even above average). My point about the other guys is that every Eatern Contender had at least 1 player capable of protecting the paint and just being an elite defender in general. I’m not equating Melo to those guys, my point was that Brooklyn is going to have no player that will even sniff an all-defense team. Melo might be the 5th best defender on the Knicks (Chandler, Camby, Shump, and Brewer), but he’d probably be the best defender on the Nets.

    22. Z-man

      Yeah, Frank, I agree that the tone of some of the posters here is way immature, profane and condescending.

      One thing that bugs me is that the CBA allows for that “poison pill” kind of contract. How does it make any sense that the same player should have a tripling of his contract in the third year? There should be some kind of provision that requires consecutive years of salary to be within, say, 20% of each other. Or, at least allow the matching team to offer the same money, spread out like it sees fit. If the goal of RFA in the first place is to allow players to chance to make more money, yet at the same time give the current team leverage to keep the player, the Lin and Asik deals seem to fly in the face of that. Lin or Asik at 3years/$8 mill would still cost the retaining teams luxury tax, but the force those teams to absorb triple the tax due to one max year seems counterintuitive.

    23. Juany8

      John, I should also point out that Chris Paul is by far the worst defender out of all the top point guards. He gets a lot of steals but often gets abused by bigger guys (and all the other elite points are bigger than him). Until you can imagine a scenario where Paul could keep up with Wade (who both Rose and Westbrook have had to guard in crunch time farther into the playoffs than Chris Paul has ever gotten), he is a large downgrade defensively from the other top guards. I might still say he’s the best point in the league overall, but he has too little defensive impact overall, especially against the other contenders, to be considered a top 5 player overall. (Maybe he is in the top 5 now because several major veterans have started declining, but he’s not close to the level of a Dwight or Lebron)

    24. Juany8

      Z-man: Yeah, Frank, I agree that the tone of some of the posters here is way immature, profane and condescending.One thing that bugs me is that the CBA allows for that “poison pill” kind of contract. How does it make any sense that the same player should have a tripling of his contract in the third year? There should be some kind of provision that requires consecutive years of salary to be within, say, 20% of each other. Or, at least allow the matching team to offer the same money, spread out like it sees fit. If the goal of RFA in the first place is to allow players to chance to make more money, yet at the same time give the current team leverage to keep the player, the Lin and Asik deals seem to fly in the face of that. Lin or Asik at 3years/$8 mill would still cost the retaining teams luxury tax, but the force those teams to absorb triple the tax due to one max year seems counterintuitive.

      Actually the provision that allowed the Rockets to give Lin his contract was the Arenas rule from the last CBA. In fact, if it weren’t for that provision the Knicks would not have been able to keep Lin as I understand it, since they can’t sign him past the mid-level this year. If the Rockets had simply been allowed to offer Lin 8 per year spread evenly, the Knicks would not have been able to match at all.

      The problem the CBA caused is that in 3 years the luxury tax penalties are going to be harsher than they’ve ever been. That makes the third year an absolute killer for tax paying teams, although it wouldn’t have been the slightest problem for an under the cap team (or the Rockets, who get to take the cap hit spread out over 3 seasons because they signed him themselves)

    25. Z-man

      It seems in retrospect that the Knicks (and I think Grunwald felt this way) were relieved to find an easy way out of the Linsanity circus. I don’t think they had faith in him being the PG to get them past the top echelon EC playoff teams, and it makes some sense that they had concerns about his knee, as Berman suggests. They went after Nash hard, thinking Lin would be a backup as he surely would have if Nash was signed. Then they went to plan B, which was Kidd as a tutor for Lin and as late game/big game insurance should Lin falter. When the contract offer from Houston changed, they went all-out for Felton and when they got him at a reasonable cost, they figured that bringing Lin back would not only cost a fortune, it would create a huge playing time controversy and media/Linsanity fan circus that would undermine Woody and Melo in the most important year for this franchise in a long time. Whether we, the media or the other players agree or disagree with the decision, if the ownership and GM don’t have a high degree of faith in the player, why should they match? To make armchair prognosticators happy?

      If Dolan truly believed that Lin was the real deal, I think he would have matched. If Grunwald believed that Lin was the real deal, I think he would have convinced Dolan to match. I don’t think either of them thought that Lin wnt back to Houston and asked for more $, or blamed Lin for not taking less $ to stay with the team. If Lin HAD taken less money, they would have kept him (possibly reluctantly), not so much out of loyalty but out of him being a better value and a lower risk. If we are to definitively blame management and Dolan for anything, it should be for underestimating Lin’s ability and potential (which I think is less certain than most people here think, really a 50-50 proposion, IMO) and overestimating Felton’s ability and potential (which I think is higher than most people here think.)

    26. Z-man

      Juany8: The problem the CBA caused is that in 3 years the luxury tax penalties are going to be harsher than they’ve ever been. That makes the third year an absolute killer for tax paying teams, although it wouldn’t have been the slightest problem for an under the cap team (or the Rockets, who get to take the cap hit spread out over 3 seasons because they signed him themselves)

      Understood, so what I’m saying is that either the Knicks should have the right to match and then restructure the contract as they see fit, or other teams should not be able to backload a contract beyond a “reasonable” raise, such as 50%.

      I remember this being discussed even before the Bird rignts ruling and it being a concern in terms of signing Lin. It was theorized that since we could not possibly offer say, 5/5/15, and we had no matching rights, there was a significant probability that we would lose Lin, and Novak as well. As it turned out, matching didn’t make a difference to management because of the reasons I outlined above, or other less thoughtful reasons, or whatever.

    27. Z-man

      Tp Eric Chen, welcome aboard. I think everything you said about Lin’s abilities is based on true statistical and observable data from Lin’s short Knicks career as a full-time player.

      Weighing against that was:
      Small sample size
      Weird lockout season
      Win-now mentality not amenable to patience with developmental issues at critical starting PG spot
      Concerns about left hand
      Concerns about perimeter shot
      Concerns about chemistry with Melo and others
      Concerns about defense
      Concerns about health/durability/knee
      Downward trend in stats
      Luxury tax/cap space issue if stretch provision
      Concerns about distractions due to PG controversy/media circus
      Felton’s good history with Knicks and Amare and availability for half of what he was paid last year
      Kidd and Prigioni as viable low-cost back-ups to Felton

    28. ephus

      Juany8 has it exactly right. The Gilbert Arenas rule has not worked to keep RFAs with their original teams.

      1. Gilbert Arenas was signed by GSW as a second round pick and was a star. When he got to the end of his second year in the summer of 2003, Arenas became a RFA and GSW held Early Bird rights, which allowed them an exception to start Arenas’ salary at the League Average salary. Washington signed Arenas to an offer sheet that GSW could not match, because it started way above the League Average Salary.

      2. The 2005 CBA was changed to create the Gilbert Arenas rule. Basically, a team bidding for a RFA cannot offer more than the League Average salary in year 1 or year 2, which means that any team that holds Early Bird rights has the ability to match. If a team does not have Early Bird rights, it can match by using its full MLE.

      3. Because the NBPA did not want second round picks and UDFAs who became RFAs to lose all leverage to cash in, they insisted that the Gilbert Arenas rule allow the bidding team to offer a balloon payment in year 3 or year 4, instead of being limited to 7.5% raises. The Gilbert Arenas rule allows the bidding team to include the balloon payment in its offer, so long as it has room in its current salary cap to bid the average salary. So, in order to bid 3 years/$25 million to Lin, the Rockets had to have $8.3 million in salary cap space this year.

      4. The Gilbert Arenas rule creates an assymetrical contract. If the bidding team wins, the player’s salary cap hit is the average salary for each year of the contract. If the prior team wins, the player’s slary cap hit is actual salary paid each year.

      5. The 2011 CBA changed the tax rates to make them graduated. Previously, teams paid $1 in tax for every $1 over the tax threshold. Starting in 2013-14, the tax rate starts at 150%, and moves up at $5 million increments to 175%, 250%, 325%, 375%, etc.

      So, the unintended consequence is that the prior team faces a…

    29. johnlocke

      Well again I have to disagree. First, Deron is a horrible defender, so Paul is definitely not ‘by far the worst defender’ of the elite PGs. Rondo is only 6’1, so he’s not much bigger than Paul. Second, Paul doesn’t have to guard Wade b/c he is a point guard, not a shooting guard. Does the fact that Melo can’t guard centers make him a poor defender? Find me another pt guard who averages more steals than turnovers in the league — he maximizes positive contributions, while minimizing negative outputs on the court (turnovers, missed shots, FG% against, etc). I don’t have his Synergy defensive stats, but he definitely does not get ‘abused’ by bigger point guards. Look at the stats from last season of the big elite PGs against him, Deron did not have good numbers against Paul, Westbrooke had one good game and 3 bad ones against Paul, Rose had one very good game against Paul, the one time they played. What stats do you have to back up your claim? Also, I’m sure the coaches who seem him throughout the season and voted him to All-NBA first team twice in his career, don’t agree with you. Anyway, I’m obviously a huge Paul fan and most of the advanced stats back me up, but we can agree to disagree.

      Juany8:
      John, I should also point out that Chris Paul is by far the worst defender out of all the top point guards. He gets a lot of steals but often gets abused by bigger guys (and all the other elite points are bigger than him). Until you can imagine a scenario where Paul could keep up with Wade (who both Rose and Westbrook have had to guard in crunch time farther into the playoffs than Chris Paul has ever gotten), he is a large downgrade defensively from the other top guards. I might still say he’s the best point in the league overall, but he has too little defensive impact overall, especially against the other contenders, to be considered a top 5 player overall…

    30. ephus

      Continuing from my last post

      So, the unintended consequence is that the prior team faces a huge tax burden in year 3 that the bidding team does not. If the old tax system had remained in place, the tax hit from Lin could not have been more than $15 million in year 3. Under the new system, the tax hit would have been around $37.5 million. If the Knicks could have treated Lin’s salary as a straight $8.3 million/year, the total tax savings across the three years would have been in excess of $15 million.

      I expect that the two sides will further tweak the Gilbert Arenas rule in the next CBA, but that is at least five years away.

    31. ruruland

      There is typically a new Melo hit piece every other day. Last week he was the head of a racist cabal out to eliminate Asians from the NBA (GQ), this week he’s back on the most despicable athletes list, the day after helping Team USA.

      This is different than what Lebron experienced. Even what Kobe experienced.

      It’s almost as if the national media is trying to outdo the New York media. I come on the board on occasion to talk about the libel, and I get trashed.

      It’s hard to understand it as anything more than hatred and contempt for the guy.

      And, yes, of course, virtually all of it is subjective, none of it is sourced. It’s like one guy sees something said about Melo and then tries to out-do it by adding on to it with a new line of bullshit.

      Interesting that in none of these hit pieces is there an attempt to allow Melo, or someone speaking on behalf of Melo, to defend himself against the accusations. No arguments are presented on the other side. In fact, the media not only contorts and manipulates Melo’s words, and omits the phrases the negate the meaning they pin to it, but they willingly censor him when he or someone speaking on his side defend their original statement against the spin.

      It’s hard to call that anything other than a never-ending witch hunt

      here is what melo’s trainer said recently about the conditioning topic:

      Ravin said that Anthony was well-prepared for last season — “1,000 percent he was in great shape” — but wrist, groin and hamstring injuries forced him to play through pain and miss 11 regular-season games.

      “What do you think happens when you get those injuries?” Ravin said. “You can’t run, you can’t play, you have to sit, it’s hard. He gets affected.”

      Therefore, Ravin’s big focus was getting Anthony to feel lighter on his feet for the Olympics and the 2012-13 season.

      “It’s better on the joints,” he said.

    32. ruruland

      Ravin also took into account how Woodson and the Knicks’ training staff were pushing Anthony to get into better shape. To reach that goal, Ravin started with Anthony’s diet, as he believes that “sometimes food is counter-intuitive.” Many of Melo’s toughest critics say that he’s not diligent and plays overweight, but Ravin downplayed that notion entirely. He said they’re missing something.

      “You forget that under his jersey, he wears a lot of that compression-type stuff, and he wears a lot of that protection-type sleeves around his stomach, so it makes him look a little bit wider and thicker,” he said. “But he’s not fat a–, man. He’s a world-class athlete, so he’s always very detailed with his diet, with his conditioning. Remember, too, the season’s long and it wears on you. Sometimes that’s where the fatigue sets in.”
      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/

      Coach K Team USA on Melo yesterday
      Mike Krzyzewski
      Thoughts on the game?
      We played a great team and I didn’t think they shot the ball really well. So we were fortunate about that. Overall, I thought we played extremely well. Carmelo (Anthony) was sensational. I thought his play in the first quarter and second period was the difference in the game because Spain came out and played such great basketball. Carmelo kind of kept us in it and our bench kept us in.

      Thoughts on Carmelo Anthony?
      He’s that stretch 4 and to have the shooting and scoring ability that he has along with the physicality of his game. So, he can play defense on a power forward but a power forward has a difficult time playing defense on him because he can lose you in transition … he takes you into untraditional places for that position. He’s been with me since I started and he’s been as good as anybody we’ve had in that time period.

    33. formido

      Couldn’t you make a pretty strong case that Rondo is better?

      He seems to encourage a more winning brand of basketball. When you buy a point guard you buy a concept of basketball. Rondo’s concept seems superior to Chris Paul’s. CP is super conservative. Rondo is more free wheeling, which means that sometimes he doesn’t get credit for the assist, but the team as a whole is playing a more unselfish style that leads to more efficient baskets. And in the end Rondo still gets more assists because that style leads to more opportunities for everyone.

      Again, Chris Paul is super conservative. He never turns the ball over. But what matters is production per turnover, not turnovers themselves. Rondo gets more production per turnover, and even though some formulas say CP’s production per turnover is better, it looks to me like Rondo’s ratio is a more winning concept for NBA basketball.

      Another problem with CP’s conservatism is that, late in games, there won’t necessarily be conservative opportunities. CP’s late game PER looks awesome but Rondo’s late game play wins.

      Rondo has no jump shot. PGs are supposed to need a mid range jumper to keep defenses honest. Rondo gets into the paint regardless. If you can get to the paint, that’s always a better play than a mid range jumper. Rondo’s deficiency is actually a strength. Better players play near the rim.

      Rondo dominates important game more than CP does.

      johnlocke: I agree with most of what you say, but disagree with a couple points. In what way do you think Chris Paul is overrated? he’s definitely the best pure point guard in the game right now. He’s compared to Howard and Lebron, b/c they are also the best at their respective positions. We can have the debate about Paul, Rondo,

    34. Juany8

      johnlocke: Well again I have to disagree. First, Deron is a horrible defender, so Paul is definitely not ‘by far the worst defender’ of the elite PGs. Rondo is only 6’1, so he’s not much bigger than Paul. Second, Paul doesn’t have to guard Wade b/c he is a point guard, not a shooting guard. Does the fact that Melo can’t guard centers make him a poor defender? Find me another pt guard who averages more steals than turnovers in the league — he maximizes positive contributions, while minimizing negative outputs on the court (turnovers, missed shots, FG% against, etc). I don’t have his Synergy defensive stats, but he definitely does not get ‘abused’ by bigger point guards. Look at the stats from last season of the big elite PGs against him, Deron did not have good numbers against Paul, Westbrooke had one good game and 3 bad ones against Paul, Rose had one very good game against Paul, the one time they played. What stats do you have to back up your claim? P>

      First off, I don’t consider Deron Williams an elite PG right now, so I really meant that Rose, Westbrook, and Rondo are all noticeably better defenders. (That being said, go look at Deron’s record with the Jazz vs. the Hornets when Paul was there. A little eye-opening) Now I get that Paul might not have to guard shooting guards, but being able to do so at a high level makes Westbrook, Rose, and Rondo that much more valuable than Paul. He does get a lot of steals, but Allen Iverson got a ton of steals and no one ever considered him a good defender. He’s also very good at abusing lesser guards with his ball pressure, but this doesn’t work against elite guards that are faster and bigger than him. I’d still say Chris Paul is the best point guard overall because his offensive game is so amazing, but he just doesn’t have much of a defensive impact overall

    35. formido

      Well, sources were quoted as saying that the decision was “not unanimous”, so *someone* was pulling for Lin.

      However, if you are correct, then this article captures the bias that I think plays into that sort of reasoning:

      http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/24/how-emotions-and-first-impressions-have-impacted-free-agency/

      What would Lin have to do next year for you to admit that those of us predicting he’ll be a star were right? If the Knicks had Deron Williams this year as a RFA instead of Lin, would you agree they should have matched? Like Lin next year, Deron Williams was on a horrible team this year where the offense ran through him. If next year Lin matches Deron Williams production from this year would you acknowledge his ability[1]? If he is in the top 5 in steals per game and in the top 3rd in opponents’ points allowed according to Synergy, would you agree that he’s not a poor defender?

      [1] Lin almost matched Williams’s production this year in his 25 starts, but it’s a “small sample”. However, I’m not only going by that small sample in my star prediction, but also his win shares at Golden State, D-league performance, high school and college performance, eye test, athleticism, size, competitive character, hard work and history of measurable improvement.

      Z-man: If Dolan truly believed that Lin was the real deal, I think he would have matched. If Grunwald believed that Lin was the real deal, I think he would have convinced Dolan to match.

    36. Bruno Almeida

      well, I don’t think Paul is as good a defender as people say he is, but I don’t think Westbrook and Rose are either great defenders like you’re saying.

      Westbrook also gambles a lot, gets caught out of position often and his tendency to chase offensive rebounds hurts him on transition pretty badly, though not as bad now as it used to be on his early days.

      and it’s very hard to gauge Rose’s defensive impact when his team is so good at every other defensive position except PF, and he kinda focuses on offense and saves energy on defense sometimes… now that Brewer, Thomas and Asik are gone, Chicago is weaker on D, and that should be a good test to see how much Rose is really a good defender or if it’s because of his team.

      probably I’d rather have Rondo than Paul… less injuries, a fantastic defender, brilliant dribble drive PG and has the ability to completely murder defensive schemes focused on stopping the other stars on his team… if he could only get better at shooting free throws, which are far more important in the way he plays than the mid-range game, he would be the best one for me.

    37. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: well, I don’t think Paul is as good a defender as people say he is, but I don’t think Westbrook and Rose are either great defenders like you’re saying.Westbrook also gambles a lot, gets caught out of position often and his tendency to chase offensive rebounds hurts him on transition pretty badly, though not as bad now as it used to be on his early days.and it’s very hard to gauge Rose’s defensive impact when his team is so good at every other defensive position except PF, and he kinda focuses on offense and saves energy on defense sometimes… now that Brewer, Thomas and Asik are gone, Chicago is weaker on D, and that should be a good test to see how much Rose is really a good defender or if it’s because of his team.probably I’d rather have Rondo than Paul… less injuries, a fantastic defender, brilliant dribble drive PG and has the ability to completely murder defensive schemes focused on stopping the other stars on his team… if he could only get better at shooting free throws, which are far more important in the way he plays than the mid-range game, he would be the best one for me.

      If Rondo developed a jump shot he could be a top 5 player lol (See game 2 against Miami this year), he has a total mastery of both offense and defense at the point but you can’t call him better than Paul when teams design their defenses to take advantage of Rondo’s weaknesses. And while Rose and Westbrook aren’t as solid and consistent as someone like Rondo on defense, their size and athleticism allows them to guard bigger players and more versatility in general. Plus they can guard Dwyane Wade, which matter a lot since neither the Bulls or Thunder have anyone else who can guard him without being a spacing liability on offense. Considering the Heat just won a ring, that’s important to point out

    38. Robtachi

      At what point are we going to stop being surprised at the sheer volume of hackery in modern sportswriting?

      I mean, seriously, I value the critical analysis of guys like ephus, Brian, ruru, and yes, even THCJ, FAR more than any of these boobs with a netbook and a soapbox to stand on.

    39. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: If Rondo developed a jump shot he could be a top 5 player lol (See game 2 against Miami this year), he has a total mastery of both offense and defense at the point but you can’t call him better than Paul when teams design their defenses to take advantage of Rondo’s weaknesses. And while Rose and Westbrook aren’t as solid and consistent as someone like Rondo on defense, their size and athleticism allows them to guard bigger players and more versatility in general. Plus they can guard Dwyane Wade, which matter a lot since neither the Bulls or Thunder have anyone else who can guard him without being a spacing liability on offense. Considering the Heat just won a ring, that’s important to point out

      yes, it is, and I agree on Rondo, but I don’t think defenses can totally neuter him with a defensive scheme… most of Boston’s offensive issues last year were, in my opinion, more because Garnett isn’t the monster he used to be, and Allen and Pierce can’t move like they used to… also, everybody else on the roster was a net negative on offense.

      if you put Rondo on this Knicks team, for example, would teams be able to scheme to stop him? no, definitely, because Carmelo, Amare, J.R would be free to murder them.

      about guarding bigger guys, yes, that’s a good point, and I agree on Westbrook, but I can’t see Rose, being the only shot creator and offensive initiation on his team, guarding Wade decently for a long period and still be effective on offense…

    40. Robtachi

      Shad0wF0x:
      “There should be some kind of provision that requires consecutive years of salary to be within, say, 20% of each other.”

      I thought that was a rule already until I saw the 5/5/15 that Lin was going to receive.

      http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/222615/Kobe_Shed_16_Pounds_In_Preparation_For_Olympics

      I hope Kobe’s physical training rubs off on Carmelo. Hate him all you want but you can’t argue that the guy trains his ass off.

      Have you seen him lately? I mean, say what you want about Melo’s Knicks tenure, but this is the best he’s looked physically in, uh, ever, really.

    41. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: yes, it is, and I agree on Rondo, but I don’t think defenses can totally neuter him with a defensive scheme… most of Boston’s offensive issues last year were, in my opinion, more because Garnett isn’t the monster he used to be, and Allen and Pierce can’t move like they used to… also, everybody else on the roster was a net negative on offense.if you put Rondo on this Knicks team, for example, would teams be able to scheme to stop him? no, definitely, because Carmelo, Amare, J.R would be free to murder them.about guarding bigger guys, yes, that’s a good point, and I agree on Westbrook, but I can’t see Rose, being the only shot creator and offensive initiation on his team, guarding Wade decently for a long period and still be effective on offense…

      He did it when the Bulls went up against the Heat in the ECF since they needed to play Korver and Thibs wasn’t going to stick Korver on Wade. He didn’t do very good offensively, mostly because he was the sole creator on the team and Korver did about as well as Novak did against a great close out team as the Heat, but Wade had a terrible series overall and Rose was certainly part of that. Ideally he wouldn’t have to guard Wade, but the Bulls simply didn’t have anyone else athletic enough on the roster who also happens to shoot well.

    42. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: He did it when the Bulls went up against the Heat in the ECF since they needed to play Korver and Thibs wasn’t going to stick Korver on Wade. He didn’t do very good offensively, mostly because he was the sole creator on the team and Korver did about as well as Novak did against a great close out team as the Heat, but Wade had a terrible series overall and Rose was certainly part of that. Ideally he wouldn’t have to guard Wade, but the Bulls simply didn’t have anyone else athletic enough on the roster who also happens to shoot well.

      yeah, he can be effective there, but the Bulls need to find other offensive weapons or they’ll fade pretty quickly.

      my case for Rondo is that to me, nobody seems to understand the flows of offenses and defenses like he does, it’s almost like he feels the right play or the right place where he should be 1 or 2 seconds earlier than other players, and he has the physical tools to adjust to that in a nano second.

      I don’t see that ability in any other guard today, that reminds me even more of Isiah Thomas on his prime than Paul does, who tends to be the normal comparison to Isiah.

    43. Robtachi

      ruruland:
      There is typically a new Melo hit piece every other day. Last week he was the head of a racist cabal out to eliminate Asians from the NBA (GQ), this week he’s back on the most despicable athletes list, the day after helping Team USA.

      This is different than what Lebron experienced. Even what Kobe experienced.

      It’s almost as if the national media is trying to outdo the New York media. I come on the board on occasion to talk about the libel, and I get trashed.

      It’s hard to understand it as anything more than hatred and contempt for the guy.

      Despite your clear personal stake in coming to Melo’s defense, I have to agree that the amount of scrutiny – and almost exclusively negative, at that – he is subject to borders on the ludicrous. He is without a doubt the Knicks’ Alex Rodriguez, who I find mostly undeserving of such media defamation, and he actually, y’know, cheated the game for a time. Mainstream sports media is a joke.

    44. sidestep

      Z-man: If Dolan truly believed that Lin was the real deal, I think he would have matched. If Grunwald believed that Lin was the real deal, I think he would have convinced Dolan to match. I don’t think either of them thought that Lin wnt back to Houston and asked for more $, or blamed Lin for not taking less $ to stay with the team. If Lin HAD taken less money, they would have kept him (possibly reluctantly), not so much out of loyalty but out of him being a better value and a lower risk.

      I find these two statements incredible. Dolan is a fool whose decisions defy sense. Does he even watch games. If there is sense to be bad, it is stuff like loyalty, not basketball sense. Isaiah Thomas — need I say more?

      There is absolutely no reason to think that Grunwald has any real power to override Dolan’s decisions or persuade Dolan. Dolan is a stubborn ass. If Grunwald really was on board about the decision, would he have avoided getting officially notified of the contract? It seems to me that his refusal to get the Houston notification (and thereby start the 3-day countdown clock) was an act of damage control, so as to buy himself more time for Dolan to reconsider the decision. If Grunwald was truly in absolute agreement with Dolan and had no intention of matching Houston’s offer, why did he delay and dawdle?

      Secondly, there is no way that Lin could have taken less money, because he got a total of one offer. It is either sign the only offer available or be at the complete mercy of Dolan in setting the terms of the contract.
      “I didn’t go back to them and ask for more money,” Lin said. “It wasn’t like they gave me the choice to sign one of the two and I chose the one that would hurt the Knicks. I had one contract offer. That was it.”
      hhttp://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8196908/houston-rockets-jeremy-lin-says-always-always-doubters

    45. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: yeah, he can be effective there, but the Bulls need to find other offensive weapons or they’ll fade pretty quickly.my case for Rondo is that to me, nobody seems to understand the flows of offenses and defenses like he does, it’s almost like he feels the right play or the right place where he should be 1 or 2 seconds earlier than other players, and he has the physical tools to adjust to that in a nano second.I don’t see that ability in any other guard today, that reminds me even more of Isiah Thomas on his prime than Paul does, who tends to be the normal comparison to Isiah.

      Actually I think the best offensive point guard overall is Steve Nash, for exactly the reasons you stated plus the fact that he’s the best shooter of all time. The impact Nash has on an offense is simply beautiful to watch, trying to reduce his playmaking to an assist number really doesn’t capture the full effect of watching Nash run an offense. I’d agree that Rondo is the second best passer (person to run an offense with) in the league, but there is something to be said for Paul’s ability to score the ball. He might be the best isolation and pick and roll scorer in the league while still being an incredible passer. You don’t need to run an intricate offense that results in some lesser player taking an open 3 when you can just have Chris Paul get himself open just as easily and consistently

    46. sidestep

      edit: “If there is sense to be bad…” should read “If there is sense to be had…”

    47. ephus

      Thanks Robtachi. My surprise with today’s Woj article trashing ‘Melo is that it did not have an obvious catalyst. When ‘Melo performs badly, I understand that writers will reach into the previous indictments to point out his flaws. When the Knicks make a personnel move, writers will ascribe power and influence to Carmelo, whether he has it or not (and I do not know). But today’s article seems as if Woj watched Carmelo shine against Spain and decided to trash him lest Knicks fans get too encouraged, and then used the previously exposed warts to do the job.

      Here are some more provocative questions about ‘Melo and the Olympics?

      1. Does he play better because he is spurred by the competition from Kobe/Lebron/Durant to get into better shape?

      2. Does he play better because he is spurred to focus by the possibility of losing playing time?

      3. Does ‘Melo disproportionately benefit from the shorter quarters and more frequent substitutions because he does not have to pace himself?

      4. Do the international rules (particularly the shorter 3 point line) help his game more than others? Ruru has posted that ‘Melo has a higher % in NBA games from just outside the 3 point arc than from shots just inside the arc, but I want to know whether that is a function of Carmelo getting his feet set on 3 pointers for the catch-and-shoot, but taking the shots just inside the line when he gets run off of the catch-and-shoot or off of the dribble.

      5. Is Carmelo Anthony better suited to playing PF (or even Center) than SF? He has gotten a lot of time at the 4, and some time at the 5, during this Olympic run.

      I would love to see the Knicks experiment with a Kidd/Smith/Novak/Anthony/Camby lineup for extended periods in the 2nd or 3rd quarters. If opponents try to cover him with a 4, he can isolate or move to the 3 point line. If opponents try to cover him with 3, Novak should get wide-open looks at the 3 point line on the pick-and-pop.

    48. Bruno Almeida

      Juany8: Actually I think the best offensive point guard overall is Steve Nash, for exactly the reasons you stated plus the fact that he’s the best shooter of all time. The impact Nash has on an offense is simply beautiful to watch, trying to reduce his playmaking to an assist number really doesn’t capture the full effect of watching Nash run an offense. I’d agree that Rondo is the second best passer (person to run an offense with) in the league, but there is something to be said for Paul’s ability to score the ball. He might be the best isolation and pick and roll scorer in the league while still being an incredible passer. You don’t need to run an intricate offense that results in some lesser player taking an open 3 when you can just have Chris Paul get himself open just as easily and consistently

      yeah, Nash is better than Rondo on offense, but Rondo’s defensive ability separates him, in my opinion.

      Paul, for me, plays a more simple game… he does all the simple thing at an incredibly efficient rate, and he’s also capable of doing really incredible and intricate stuff every so often… but as I said, I think Rondo’s a better defender and Paul’s injury history still frightens me.

      also, Rondo seems to be made of the same material Kobe is, for example, that pathological desire to win and to prove his doubters wrong… that’s the attitude I’d like to see with Melo, if he stays for a full season with the right mindset, he could be a top 5 player, but that’s hard to do.

    49. hoolahoop

      Generally, fan-atics that like Melo don’t have a good comprehension of basketball . . . and have not played the game. Coaches and the smartest ex-NBA analysts repeated chastise him in politically correct softness for his shortcomings – which are blatant.
      Melo is one of the games best scorers, but the absolute worst guy you can have to lead your team if you have serious aspirations. Sure, he’ll have a big scoring night here and there with team USA, but make no mistake about it. He is not the leader of that team. If he was, they would not win gold.
      Melo plays a selfish, ball hogging, ball stopping, hero-ball style. Coaches have told him so. Of course, they’re wrong. He knows better. Look what he did to Amare. Shameful. He basically froze him out of the offense. . . . instead of setting him up and making it easy for him.
      You can’t go far in the playoffs when your best player is happier scoring 40 and losing than 12 and winning. He’s the karma of James Dolan and his record in here in NY speaks volumes.

    50. Juany8

      Robtachi: Despite your clear personal stake in coming to Melo’s defense, I have to agree that the amount of scrutiny – and almost exclusively negative, at that – he is subject to borders on the ludicrous. He is without a doubt the Knicks’ Alex Rodriguez, who I find mostly undeserving of such media defamation, and he actually, y’know, cheated the game for a time. Mainstream sports media is a joke.

      The real problem is that the press doesn’t have easy targets to attack anymore. Iverson and Marbury are out of the league, Kobe calmed down and won a couple of rings, Tmac and Vince Carter stopped mattering… Even guys like Rasheed Wallace aren’t around anymore. The media doesn’t have a legit reason to attack any of the wing “stars” in the league so they’re coming at Melo since he’s the next closest thing to the players I mentioned above. Of course Melo never had the problems or said the ridiclous things those guys did in public, so it has to be somewhat manufactured to make him look like the next entitled but underachieving volume shooter.

    51. hoolahoop

      Juany8: Actually I think the best offensive point guard overall is Steve Nash, for exactly the reasons you stated plus the fact that he’s the best shooter of all time. The impact Nash has on an offense is simply beautiful to watch, trying to reduce his playmaking to an assist number really doesn’t capture the full effect of watching Nash run an offense. I’d agree that Rondo is the second best passer (person to run an offense with) in the league, but there is something to be said for Paul’s ability to score the ball. He might be the best isolation and pick and roll scorer in the league while still being an incredible passer. You don’t need to run an intricate offense that results in some lesser player taking an open 3 when you can just have Chris Paul get himself open just as easily and consistently

      Short white guys that don’t jump high don’t win multiple MVP’s by accident. Nash is the quintessential PG. If I was a coach I’d brainwash my PG’s with Nash videos a la clockwork orange.

      It’s a simple concept that a lot of talented players don’t get. It’s not about scoring – it’s about the team scoring. lebron gets it. Melo doesn’t have a clue.

    52. Juany8

      Bruno Almeida: yeah, Nash is better than Rondo on offense, but Rondo’s defensive ability separates him, in my opinion.Paul, for me, plays a more simple game… he does all the simple thing at an incredibly efficient rate, and he’s also capable of doing really incredible and intricate stuff every so often… but as I said, I think Rondo’s a better defender and Paul’s injury history still frightens me.also, Rondo seems to be made of the same material Kobe is, for example, that pathological desire to win and to prove his doubters wrong… that’s the attitude I’d like to see with Melo, if he stays for a full season with the right mindset, he could be a top 5 player, but that’s hard to do.

      Oh I absolutely love Rondo and would take him over any of the other point guards in the league for his price tag alone (I think he’s making like $11 million next year!!!) He’s the best defensive PG and the best rebounding PG as well, which add quite a bit to his value. And while I do think Rondo is capable of running an offense and improving his teammates better than Paul, Paul’s such a good scorer that I think I’d rather just have him shoot the ball over letting Rondo’s teammates shoot off his passes. Either way, the top 4 point guards all have very different strengths and weaknesses and the truth is matchups would probably decide which one is the ‘best’ in any given scenario

    53. johnlocke

      I like Woj and read a lot of his articles. He has a hard-on for Kobe and what he just wrote about Melo, he has about 50 articles+ dedicated to Lebron hate, just google him and Lebron and see what pops up. The issue is that Lebron has won a title, so he (and the media) need to find their next target. Melo is the next biggest wing-scorer (and he was part of the same draft class as Lebron and Wade) that has yet to win a title, or get out of the 1st round, save once in his career. If he wins a title, it will stop, simple as that. The media doesn’t “hate” Melo, I just think he’s next on the list in terms of creating articles that people will read and spur debate. Regarding looking at what Melo is doing on the USA team and ascribing that to how he could impact the Knicks, I’d say it’s fairly apples and oranges for several reasons and also point out that before the outburst against Spain, Melo had been playing and shooting at a below average (for him) clip.

      ephus:
      Thanks Robtachi.My surprise with today’s Woj article trashing ‘Melo is that it did not have an obvious catalyst.When ‘Melo performs badly, I understand that writers will reach into the previous indictments to point out his flaws.

    54. ephus

      Juany8: The real problem is that the press doesn’t have easy targets to attack anymore.

      Well, Russell Westbrook definitely gets a lot of abuse. During yesterday’s game, Fraschilla was tearing his hair out about Westbrook dribbling in place against the Spanish zone, instead of penetrating or swinging the ball. I think that criticism was warranted, but it falls into the pattern of Durant = good and smart/ Westbrook = foolish and selfish.

      But Carmelo Anthony is like late 80’s Darryl Strawberry. He is a polarizing figure and the topic of every conversation about the team. People who love him point to his enormous talent and the stretches (like March) when he has carried the team on his shoulders. People who hate him point to his lack of focus and poor decisionmaking. Personally, I vacillate between hoping that he will be next coming of Bernard King and fearing that he is a bigger Vince Carter.

    55. johnlocke

      I love Rondo, but my issue with him is that I’m not sure how Rondo would perform if you threw him on the Clippers or the Nets. He’s benefited from playing with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett for several years – three 1st ballot Hall of Famers. I’d also argue that up until last year, Pierce was the best player on that team, not Rondo. Rondo can’t shoot FTs or jumpers and turns the ball over too much — those are huge negatives for a PG. Gimme Paul over Rondo all the time, every time. I think a core of Chris Paul, Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen would be the best team in the NBA last year or the year before.

      Juany8: Oh I absolutely love Rondo and would take him over any of the other point guards in the league for his price tag alone (I think he’s making like $11 million next year!!!) He’s the best defensive PG and the best rebounding PG as well, which add quite a bit to his value. And while I do think Rondo is capable of running an offense and improving his teammates better than Paul, Paul’s such a good scorer that I think I’d rather just have him shoot the ball over letting Rondo’s teammates shoot off his passes. Either way, the top 4 point guards all have very different strengths and weaknesses and the truth is matchups would probably decide which one is the ‘best’ in any given scenario

    56. Juany8

      johnlocke: I love Rondo, but my issue with him is that I’m not sure how Rondo would perform if you threw him on the Clippers or the Nets. He’s benefited from playing with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett for several years – three 1st ballot Hall of Famers. I’d also argue that up until last year, Pierce was the best player on that team, not Rondo. Rondo can’t shoot FTs or jumpers and turns the ball over too much — those are huge negatives for a PG. Gimme Paul over Rondo all the time, every time. I think a core of Chris Paul, Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen would be the best team in the NBA last year or the year before.

      I don’t argue that Paul is a better offensive player than Rondo (and perhaps anyone in the NBA) but Rondo has a pretty significant defensive and rebounding advantage over Paul, and he’s much less of an injury risk. When you add in the lower price tag, I’d easily take Rondo over Paul if building a team. As far as who the actual best player would be, I agree that Paul is the better player by a thin margin, but that depending on matchups and teammates I could see different scenarios where I would prefer Rondo.

    57. JK47

      If Melo was a politician he’d be known as a gaffe machine. He constantly shoots himself in the foot, and today’s “Hey, this year I’m going to show up in shape” comment is just the latest example.

    58. BigBlueAL

      Al Iannazzone reports Knicks open season at Brooklyn on Nov 1st then play the Heat at MSG the next night. Helluva fun start to the season to say the least.

    59. Robtachi

      ephus: Well, Russell Westbrook definitely gets a lot of abuse.During yesterday’s game, Fraschilla was tearing his hair out about Westbrook dribbling in place against the Spanish zone, instead of penetrating or swinging the ball.I think that criticism was warranted, but it falls into the pattern of Durant = good and smart/ Westbrook = foolish and selfish.

      But Carmelo Anthony is like late 80?s Darryl Strawberry.He is a polarizing figure and the topic of every conversation about the team.People who love him point to his enormous talent and the stretches (like March) when he has carried the team on his shoulders.People who hate him point to his lack of focus and poor decisionmaking. Personally, I vacillate between hoping that he will be next coming of Bernard King and fearing that he is a bigger Vince Carter.

      But the difference is that Strawberry was openly a clubhouse problem, getting into physical altercations with his teammates and openly criticizing his coaches/managers. There are varying degrees to which Melo can be held responsible for D’antoni’s resignation, but he’s never done the kind of things Straw did to garner that negative press. It’s like sports media figured out more people were tuning in and buying newspapers/magazines back when there were guys with drug and disciplinary problems at the highest professional levels, so they want to get back to creating those sorts of characterizations of undeserving athletes. I mean, LeBron may have made himself look like a complete egomaniac and turncoat in Cleveland’s eyes with “The Decision”, but what has he really done to deserve the treatment he received prior to winning a championship?

    60. Juany8

      BigBlueAL: Al Iannazzone reports Knicks open season at Brooklyn on Nov 1st then play the Heat at MSG the next night. Helluva fun start to the season to say the least.

      As much as the lockout caused problems, I loved the condensed schedule from last year as a fan. It was a pretty fun experience to simply look at the tv schedule every day and realize there was a good chance your team was playing that day. It did lower the quality of play somewhat, but it was fun watching teams play all the time.

    61. Robtachi

      Juany8: As much as the lockout caused problems, I loved the condensed schedule from last year as a fan. It was a pretty fun experience to simply look at the tv schedule every day and realize there was a good chance your team was playing that day. It did lower the quality of play somewhat, but it was fun watching teams play all the time.

      I agree. At least at first, and especially at the height of Linsanity, it was simply amazing to wake up just about every morning knowing that after work I could kick back with a beer and watch the Knicks. As the season wore on I found myself wishing for more off days if it simply meant the on-court product would be better, though. That’s why I was so looking forward to this season. I’m not saying I no longer feel that excitement, but… dammit, I have to admit, my spirits are dampened a bit, no matter how ridiculous that may be.

    62. Juany8

      Robtachi: . It’s like sports media figured out more people were tuning in and buying newspapers/magazines back when there were guys with drug and disciplinary problems at the highest professional levels, so they want to get back to creating those sorts of characterizations of undeserving athletes. I mean, LeBron may have made himself look like a complete egomaniac and turncoat in Cleveland’s eyes with “The Decision”, but what has he really done to deserve the treatment he received prior to winning a championship?

      Even at its worst, the media based Lebron bashing still praised his game for the most part, and there were plenty of people rushing to his defense. Every time Melo is mentioned nowadays, it seems like media members have to point out some flaw in his game or character and no one ever really tries to just praise him in an article. As a Houston fan who loved Tmac (perhaps a tad irrationally) I’ve seen the same treatment given to a player before, where even when he does good things people are looking to bring him down.

      It’s not a coincidence that this doesn’t happen with white players by the way, even though Jimmer was basically an Allen Iverson who preffered shooting to attacking the rim, you never saw anyone calling him a ball hog (and seriously, even Kobe never had Jimmer’s freedom to shoot). Imagine if Melo was putting up a huge double-double streak like Love did a few years ago while losing most of his games and playing no defense. He’d get killed for worrying about his own stats instead of being a team player, while Love suddenly turned into a star everyone pities for being stuck with Kahn in Minnesota

    63. fresh

      In regards to the “poison pill” discussion higher up in this thread, my understanding is that the current rules of how the annual salary impacts the luxury tax differently for the original team vs. the new team were insisted upon by the players’ union. I don’t think this was an unintended consequence that it can make it harder for the original team to sign their RFA, I think that’s the whole point of it. Presumably this was done so that players would have some way to escape from the team that owns their restricted rights if they truly didn’t want to return to that team. Otherwise if you’re a good player stuck on a team that you don’t want to play for your only option would be to take the one year qualifying offer, cross your fingers that you don’t suffer a major injury or have a bad season, and play it out until you’re truly unrestricted. (Not suggesting that this is what happened in Lin’s case, but if, say, Eric Gordon truly believed his “heart is in Phoenix” then he should’ve had the Suns draw up a similarly back loaded contract).

    64. thenamestsam

      @ephus

      Isn’t the first proactive question we’d want to ask whether he actually plays better in FIBA basketball? My perspective is that it’s mostly a myth based on the fact that he played excellently during the 06 championships – a whopping 9 games. That resulted in him getting a reputation as a good FIBA player that held up in the face of his very poor play in 08, and essentially average (for him) play since then. See Sherwood-Strauss for more detail (ignore the inflammatory headline, the piece is quite insightful):

      http://hoopspeak.com/2012/07/carmelo-anthony-was-a-bad-olympic-player/

      Basically every time Melo has a hot shooting game everyone pipes up with the whole “Melo is a great FIBA player!” thing, and when he shoots poorly everyone basically ignores it since Lebron or Durant or whoever else carries them. Melo is a good player. Therefore he is a good FIBA player. Is there any evidence that he’s actually better in the FIBA environment?

    65. Juany8

      fresh: In regards to the “poison pill” discussion higher up in this thread, my understanding is that the current rules of how the annual salary impacts the luxury tax differently for the original team vs. the new team were insisted upon by the players’ union. I don’t think this was an unintended consequence that it can make it harder for the original team to sign their RFA, I think that’s the whole point of it. Presumably this was done so that players would have some way to escape from the team that owns their restricted rights if they truly didn’t want to return to that team. Otherwise if you’re a good player stuck on a team that you don’t want to play for your only option would be to take the one year qualifying offer, cross your fingers that you don’t suffer a major injury or have a bad season, and play it out until you’re truly unrestricted. (Not suggesting that this is what happened in Lin’s case, but if, say, Eric Gordon truly believed his “heart is in Phoenix” then he should’ve had the Suns draw up a similarly back loaded contract).

      Eric Gordon got the absolute max offer, Phoenix didn’t backload his contract they just gave him as much as possible under league rules. Technically, Morey could have given Lin an extra year at $15 million, which would make matching totally absurd. Even with that extra maxed year, Gordon would still be making more money than Lin pretty much every year of the contract. There is no human being in the world that would risk losing $80 million just to be able to change cities, not unless they were already rich beyond their wildest dreams (no player on a rookie contract is rich beyond their wildest dreams trust me)

    66. thenamestsam

      I don’t think the Melo criticism is really any mystery, and I think calling it more fervent than the Lebron criticism shows a very Knicks-centric world view. Lebron’s decision to pass up the last shot of the All-Star game (repeated for emphasis: THE ALL-STAR GAME) was criticized for days. Nothing is a bigger magnet for hate than being a great player who hasn’t won a championship and there truly is only one cure. Win a chip and the perception of Melo is forever altered overnight. Until that point there’s really nothing else that will do it.

    67. johnno

      Typical Melo-bashing that has no basis is reality. Take a look at Amare’s offensive stats for the 25 games immediately prior to the Melo trade and his stats for the rest of the season. They are almost IDENTICAL — 25 points/7.5 rebounds on 51% shooting compared to 24.5 points/7.4 rebounds on 51% shooting. If Melo was “freezing him out of the offense,” what was Amare doing, stealing the ball from him and shooting?

      hoolahoop: Look what he did to Amare. Shameful. He basically froze him out of the offense. . . . instead of setting him up and making it easy for him.

    68. Juany8

      thenamestsam: I don’t think the Melo criticism is really any mystery, and I think calling it more fervent than the Lebron criticism shows a very Knicks-centric world view. Lebron’s decision to pass up the last shot of the All-Star game (repeated for emphasis: THE ALL-STAR GAME) was criticized for days. Nothing is a bigger magnet for hate than being a great player who hasn’t won a championship and there truly is only one cure. Win a chip and the perception of Melo is forever altered overnight. Until that point there’s really nothing else that will do it.

      It’s not this simple, Westbrook gets a lot more criticism than Durant despite being younger doesn’t he? Kobe also gets a surprising amount of criticism for someone who’s won 5 championships and been to 7 finals. Melo doesn’t get bashed more than those guys per se, but for Melo pretty much every piece that comes out is negative which is pretty unusual

    69. formido

      I’ve been pondering the complaint that people say things on here that they wouldn’t say in person. It’s a good criticism. For example, when I refute something completely in person, it never comes up again. My friends, coworkers, family, and acquaintances don’t repeat poor arguments over and over and over after debunking. However, the frustrating thing about forums is that, when you refute something, it keeps on coming up, often from the same people. Somehow it seems easier over the Internet to hold on to weak arguments.

      Case in point, the “risk” from Lin’s meniscus tear, or the claim that Lin is coming off “major knee surgery”[1]. I’ve never heard anyone claim ever that a meniscus tear is a major knee injury. And, while Shump is recovering from much more dangerous a knee injury, no one discounted his trade value for Nash. Chris Paul had a meniscus tear. JR Smith had a meniscus tear. Tons of players have had meniscus tears and this is the first I’ve ever heard anyone claim it might be be career altering. Players that come back from meniscus tears do not have a drop-off in PER[2]. If Kyrie Irving had meniscus surgery, no one would be claiming it was career altering. Do I think Jeremy Lin has the same potential over the next three contract years as Kyrie Irving? Yes. And though his PER was higher this year than Lin’s, I will be shocked if that’s the case next year.

      [1] I wonder how many of the same people claiming Lin’s knee is a serious risk also claim Lin should have played in the Miami series. SAS I’m looking at you.

      [2] http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/11/30/0363546511428601.abstract [From the abstract, 25% of players with meniscus tears don’t return–the full study is behind a pay wall, but I’ll guess that these are often marginal or near retiring players. Anyone following Lin’s recovery knows that he’s almost back and has been vetted by team doctors, so I doubt returning is an issue. I’m understating my lack of doubt.]

    70. thenamestsam

      Juany8: It’s not this simple, Westbrook gets a lot more criticism than Durant despite being younger doesn’t he? Kobe also gets a surprising amount of criticism for someone who’s won 5 championships and been to 7 finals. Melo doesn’t get bashed more than those guys per se, but for Melo pretty much every piece that comes out is negative which is pretty unusual

      You’re right that it is more complicated. Part of the complication is that we’re grouping a bunch of different types of criticism together. What I’m mostly referring to is the kind of mainstream media hackery embodied by the Woj piece above. No real analysis, just lazy stuff about “not being a winner” with the current days definition of “winner” being created to suit the task at hand.

      Kobe is basically immune to that at this point because of the 5 chips. The criticism of him is much more from the blog community and is more backlash against the idea emanating from the mainstream press that he’s some embodiment of clutchness. It’s a pretty specific type of criticism and it’s mostly within the hardcore basketball audience. You’re not hearing it on Sportscenter or reading it on Yahoosports frontpage or whatever.

      The Westbrook criticism is also a bit different as it has more to do with style of play than with overall worth as a player. He comes in for a lot of heat as a shoot-first PG, but it’s not the same type of generalized hate that is directed at Melo and was previously directed at Lebron.

      But you’re right that it is more complicated than I made it out to be in my initial post. I still think the main point stands that great players who don’t win eventually come in for a lot of criticism and the only way to end it is to get your championship. There are other factors that play a role, but that’s the defining element.

    71. Frank O.

      Ruru:
      On the Melo trashing, I think it was you that noted last season that Melo has a tendency to put his foot in his mouth. Perhaps he’s not as articulate; perhaps he speaks what to him seems truth.
      Either way, I think some of the frustration is that he says things sometimes that are mystifying.
      He implied he wasn’t playing as hard as he needed to prior to D’Antoni walking.
      He said he needed to come into the season in better condition. I would expect his trainer, who in part is being asked to assess his own performance, to say Melo was in good shape. And what is good shape? By what standard. For you and me, Melo is in fantastic shape. For the NBA, probably not as good a shape as some others on his team.
      He called another player’s contract offer ridiculous. What NBA player does that?
      But my observation of him is that he simply says things that rub me the wrong way.
      I still hope he takes his game to a new level. But I think he’s his own worst enemy.
      What sports journalists write is utterly stupid, for the most part. And even more so in the off season when they clearly are grasping at straws to justify their checks.
      Again, I’d love to see if anyone would hold them accountable for their inaccuracies. I’m a journalist. If I was inaccurate as often these guys are, I’d be out of a job PDQ.

    72. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Stop using PER.

      As I’ve said over and fucking over again, you can raise your PER by shooting 33% from 2PT and 25% from 3PT.

      It’s a terrible fucking statistic for a very obvious and stupid fucking reason.

      It’s been debunked.

      STOP USING IT.

    73. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Stop using PER.

      As I’ve said over and fucking over again, you can raise your PER by shooting 33% from 2PT and 25% from 3PT.

      It’s a terrible fucking statistic for a very obvious and stupid fucking reason.

      It’s been debunked.

      STOP USING IT.

      WP48= Fields> Rose/Rondo/Nash etc al

    74. DRed

      Wouldn’t wearing compression stuff make you, uh, more compressed? And if Carmelo wasn’t fat, how did he manage to lose so much weight?

    75. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: WP48= Fields> Rose/Rondo/Nash etc al

      I give you a simple numerical explanation and you respond with “common sense” arguments. You are primarily responsible for this board going to shit. Thanks. Let us know how Carmelo’s dick tastes if you ever get close enough.

    76. ruruland

      DRed:
      Wouldn’t wearing compression stuff make you, uh, more compressed?And if Carmelo wasn’t fat, how did he manage to lose so much weight?

      He’s lost 12 points. Kobe has lost 19 pounds. Was he fat last year?

      depending on how you lose weight, you often lose water weight and muscle weight.

    77. DRed

      ruruland: WP48= Fields> Rose/Rondo/Nash etc al

      Nash .260
      Rondo .211
      Fields .170
      Rose .135

      Those are last years WP48. Derrick Rose is a good player-I think his WP48 is probably depressed a bit because he gets dinged for his below average rebounding numbers, and he plays on a team with a great rebounding frontcourt. But if he was a superduperstar, why did the Bulls go 18-9 without him?

    78. DRed

      I don’t watch Lakers games, but Kobe sucked last year, so it’s easy for me to believe he was out of shape.

    79. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I give you a simple numerical explanation and you respond with “common sense” arguments. You are primarily responsible for this board going to shit. Thanks. Let us know how Carmelo’s dick tastes if you ever get close enough.

      Wait, professor, I was responding to your numerical explanation for PER?

    80. ruruland

      DRed: Nash.260
      Rondo .211
      Fields.170
      Rose.135

      Those are last years WP48.Derrick Rose is a good player-I think his WP48 is probably depressed a bit because he gets dinged for his below average rebounding numbers, and he plays on a team with a great rebounding frontcourt.But if he was a superduperstar, why did the Bulls go 18-9 without him?

      Funny, just two years ago Kidd was something like third in WP48. Camby, Kidd, Brewer and Felton are all highly rated by wow and should add like 12-15 wins next year, but you don’t see THCJ talking about that.

      2010:

      Chris Andersen .267 Steve Nash .250

      Ben Wallace .260 Wade .257

      Dampier .182 Pierce .149

      And on and on and on

      http://wagesofwins.com/wins-produced/wins-produced-2010/

    81. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Wait, professor, I was responding to your numerical explanation for PER?

      You’re not my student. You’re some dipshit who has a subscription to Synergy who thinks he’s a fucking analytical god because he knows what it means to front on a pick and roll.

      The truth is that you are not an expert, and even if you were, you would not be immune from severe and significant mental lapses.

      Your subjective analysis isn’t even worthless: it’s destructive. It’s a series of persistently argued explanations that almost always hold with the “common sense” attitude toward player valuation. And when you tout your own bullshitty horn on this site, you lie to everyone who reads it.

      Just get the fuck out.

    82. ruruland

      DRed: Nash.260
      Rondo .211
      Fields.170
      Rose.135

      Those are last years WP48.Derrick Rose is a good player-I think his WP48 is probably depressed a bit because he gets dinged for his below average rebounding numbers, and he plays on a team with a great rebounding frontcourt.But if he was a superduperstar, why did the Bulls go 18-9 without him?

      The Nuggets were below .500 without Melo in the lineup in his career there, but you don’t here those folks ever use that argument.

    83. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: Funny, just two years ago Kidd was something like third in WP48. Camby, Kidd, Brewer and Felton are all highly rated by wow and should add like 12-15 wins next year, but you don’t see THCJ talking about that.

      2010:

      Chris Andersen .267Steve Nash .250

      Ben Wallace .260Wade .257

      Dampier .182 Pierce .149

      And on and on and on

      http://wagesofwins.com/wins-produced/wins-produced-2010/

      Ironic that the biggest bullshitter on this site can’t use the search function to find evidence of me saying “Kidd and Camby were really good last year, and barring a serious injury or age issue, they will contribute to the team’s wins. Looks like your amazing memory is — surprise! — actually total bullshit!

    84. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You are primarily responsible for this board going to shit. Thanks. Let us know how Carmelo’s dick tastes if you ever get close enough.

      This board is filled with people who know not what they’re talking about, but I agree that ruru has made it much worse . . . except to the melo loving fanboys who will run to his defense. . . and people who are fooled by his well written theories that have no connection to the real world.
      A paid shill on a forum will certainly ruin the discourse. I think he’s knows exactly how melo’s dick tastes. I just wonder when he comes up for air.

    85. hoolahoop

      ruruland: The Nuggets were below .500 without Melo in the lineup in his career there, but you don’t here those folks ever use that argument.

      There you go again. The Nuggets have been better since Melo left. The knicks with melo in the lineup, well that’s a different story.

    86. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: The Nuggets were below .500 without Melo in the lineup in his career there, but you don’t here those folks ever use that argument.

      Right, because a team with a player who is never injured and plays 35 mpg would invest lots of money and draft picks on a high-level backup.

      If I were Mike Bibby’s backup last year and he played a bulk of the minutes at PG, and the team were +20 with him on the court instead of me, would that make him a great point guard?

    87. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      hoolahoop: This board is filled with people who know not what they’re talking about, but I agree that ruru has made it much worse . . . except to the melo loving fanboys who will run to his defense. . . and people who are fooled by his well written theories that have no connection to the real world.
      A paid shill on a forum will certainly ruin the discourse. I think he’s knows exactly how melo’s dick tastes. I just wonder when he comes up for air.

      I like the post over at the Wages of Wins Journal about how “expert” bartenders couldn’t even pour an accurate shot when they changed the glasses that they poured in.

      Yet ruruland can tell us everything we need to know about very specific circumstances in which Carmelo takes step-back isos, up-and-unders against smaller defenders, and how fast he runs the 10 yard dash after a night of heavy McNugget abuse.

    88. ruruland

      hoolahoop: There you go again. The Nuggets have been better since Melo left. The knicks with melo in the lineup, well that’s a different story.

      That wasn’t my point. I could have used any player. I’m saying that these people, just like their adversaries in argumentation, are going to pick and choose which anecdotes to use based on whatever their metrics tell them. That is their confirmation bias. So, I don’t think it was a good idea to use the record without Rose.

    89. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Ironic that the biggest bullshitter on this site can’t use the search function to find evidence of me saying “Kidd and Camby were really good last year, and barring a serious injury or age issue, they will contribute to the team’s wins. Looks like your amazing memory is — surprise! — actually total bullshit!

      Try reading that one more time.

    90. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Right, because a team with a player who is never injured and plays 35 mpg would invest lots of money and draft picks on a high-level backup.

      If I were Mike Bibby’s backup last year and he played a bulk of the minutes at PG, and the team were +20 with him on the court instead of me, would that make him a great point guard?

      Not really my point. Rose isn’t that good, according to wins produced.

    91. bobneptune

      Frank: First of all, you’re not my father so don’t talk/write to me like you are.

      First of all, get over the butthurt. Chew on this mean to think about it a little bit more. Let me remind you , you said this:

      “The other thing – I seem to remember a guy named Michael Jordan who was accused of being selfish, not a team player etc. etc. until his late 20s.”

      To which I supplied copious stats showing that while he put up a lot of shots, he shot a very good %, rebounded, handed out assists , steals, half court traps and played an impeccable overall game (especially on defense). Those are not the earmarks of a selfish player. A team player plays BOTH ends of the floor to his ability and makes the correct play whether that is to shoot, pass or pound it into the floor incessantly.

      I’m sure he was thoroughly disliked by some of his team mates mainly because he drove them insanely and incessantly to be better by giving better effort and playing the “right” way. I’m sure Pippen and Kukoc might have wanted to stab him right in the gorgel because he drove them so hard…. but he drove them to 6 titles, something which we never have to worry about with Melo.

      And when you go into an MJ rant in the middle of a Melo discussion, plz don’t cry to the greek chorus that you weren’t comparing their supposed selfishness.

    92. BigBlueAL

      Timberwolves looking like they will be signing AK47 for 2yr-20 mil. Kahn jokes have been rampant on Twitter last couple of hours lol

    93. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Ironic that the biggest bullshitter on this site can’t use the search function to find evidence of me saying “Kidd and Camby were really good last year, and barring a serious injury or age issue, they will contribute to the team’s wins. Looks like your amazing memory is — surprise! — actually total bullshit!

      Again, so why haven’t you talked about the Knicks adding 3 of the top 25 players in the NBA from 2011?

    94. ruruland

      And as far as the personal attacks go, like I’ve always said, believe whatever you want. It’s not going to change how I post.

    95. Frank

      Geez. I think I am done with this site until October. It is unbelievably toxic here.

      Good luck everyone.

    96. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You’re not my student. You’re some dipshit who has a subscription to Synergy who thinks he’s a fucking analytical god because he knows what it means to front on a pick and roll.

      The truth is that you are not an expert, and even if you were, you would not be immune from severe and significant mental lapses.

      Your subjective analysis isn’t even worthless: it’s destructive. It’s a series of persistently argued explanations that almost always hold with the “common sense” attitude toward player valuation. And when you tout your own bullshitty horn on this site, you lie to everyone who reads it.

      Just get the fuck out.

      You must have had a long day at ITT. What a hissy fit.

    97. bobneptune

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Ironic that the biggest bullshitter on this site can’t use the search function to find evidence of me saying “Kidd and Camby were really good last year, and barring a serious injury or age issue, they will contribute to the team’s wins. Looks like your amazing memory is — surprise! — actually total bullshit!

      HCJ,

      I love both Kidd and Camby for what they brought to their teams through their careers, but you said Kidd was really good last year and I’d like you to explain that position.

      To me , Kidd is likely the best pure passer in NBA history. The only person I put on his level as a passer was Wayne Gretzky , as both he and Kidd had the ability to visualize in their mind’s eye where players would be 3 steps into the future.

      However, part of kidds game in his PHX and NJN days was attacking the rim shooting > 300 times a year at the rim. Last year he made 17 attempts in 48 games at the rim. The notion that he refuses to penetrate anymore has to diminish his ability to set players up for the easy shots they used to get off his penetration.

      Also his WS/48 was down to .103 last year as his usage was down, his ast% was down and his TOV% was up. He is pretty much strictly a spot up 3 point shooter now.

      How does this all translate into a really good season and the trend lines aren’t pretty when trying to extrapolate forward.

    98. DRed

      bobneptune: HCJ,

      I love both Kidd and Camby for what they brought to their teams through their careers, but you said Kidd was really good last year and I’d like you to explain that position.

      To me , Kidd is likely the best pure passer in NBA history. The only person I put on his level as a passer was Wayne Gretzky , as both he and Kidd had the ability to visualize in their mind’s eye where players would be3 steps into the future.

      However, part of kidds game in his PHX and NJN days was attacking the rim shooting > 300 times a year at the rim. Last year he made 17 attempts in 48 games at the rim. The notion that he refuses to penetrate anymore has to diminish his ability to set players up for the easy shots they used to get off his penetration.

      Also his WS/48 was down to .103 last year as his usage was down, his ast% was down and his TOV% was up. He is pretty much strictly a spot up 3 point shooter now.

      How does this all translate into a really good season and the trend lines aren’t pretty when trying to extrapolate forward.

      Well, when you’re talking about Jason Kidd getting worse, you’re starting from a pretty high mark. But you’re right-the trend lines for Kidd are heading in the wrong direction. He’s worth a shot as a backup as a team going for a championship next year, but in 3 years he’s probably going to be useless. And at his age, there’s a real chance that he’ll be terrible or hurt next year too.

    99. ruruland

      Frank:
      Geez. I think I am done with this site until October. It is unbelievably toxic here.

      Good luck everyone.

      C’mon, Frank. We all know who goes the personal attack route. I will occasionally respond to THCJ that way, but it’s childish, I admit.

      I get that some of the regs posts are lightning rods for a certain dialectic, but I think it’s pretty clear who the aggressors are.

      I know it’s hard to see 20 straight posts like that, but don’t let that ruin it for you. You’re too important of a member. And frankly, I absolutely have a certain level of respect for THCJ’s pov. What bothers me is that he spends so much of his time deriding others and so little of it giving analysis, or riffing with his own thoughts, while condescendingly shooting everyone else down all the time (a tone he is undeserving to take)

      There are some other caustic problem children here, but overall, for a message board, it’s still very good.

    100. ruruland

      DRed: Well, when you’re talking about Jason Kidd getting worse, you’re starting from a pretty high mark.But you’re right-the trend lines for Kidd are heading in the wrong direction.He’s worth a shot as a backup as a team going for a championship next year, but in 3 years he’s probably going to be useless.And at his age, there’s a real chance that he’ll be terrible or hurt next year too.

      I think most people agree with the idea that Kidd could fall off the age cliff before his contract is up here. However, can we not all agree that last year was pretty strange for everyone? It’s hard to gauge what last season’s numbers mean. When kidd’s numbers are league adjusted, they aren’t as bad.

      Secondly, anyone who believes they have a credible opinion on Kidd needs to first watch some of the Mavericks games last year.

      To me, he was basically the same player from the championship squad minus 3pt efficiency, which was a league-wide trend.

      Also, if that’s the one true flaw in his game as a old man, I don’t see it being a problem — he doesn’t need a lot of lift on his shot.

      He still moves well enough where his great anticipation gives him an advantage.

    101. ruruland

      bobneptune: HCJ,

      I love both Kidd and Camby for what they brought to their teams through their careers, but you said Kidd was really good last year and I’d like you to explain that position.

      To me , Kidd is likely the best pure passer in NBA history. The only person I put on his level as a passer was Wayne Gretzky , as both he and Kidd had the ability to visualize in their mind’s eye where players would be3 steps into the future.

      However, part of kidds game in his PHX and NJN days was attacking the rim shooting > 300 times a year at the rim. Last year he made 17 attempts in 48 games at the rim. The notion that he refuses to penetrate anymore has to diminish his ability to set players up for the easy shots they used to get off his penetration.

      Also his WS/48 was down to .103 last year as his usage was down, his ast% was down and his TOV% was up. He is pretty much strictly a spot up 3 point shooter now.

      How does this all translate into a really good season and the trend lines aren’t pretty when trying to extrapolate forward.

      He doesn’t penetrate all the way to the basket very often, but he can penetrate far enough to get the defense into rotation, where he will then create either a play directly or through ball rotation.

      He can’t jump, and he knows it. So, he will pass up shots at the basket for shots in the corner or on the wings.

      He’s a very unique player at this stage in the half-court. It doesn’t look like he’s doing much, but he actually facilitates a great deal of half-court ball movement.

      The trust he engenders in his teammates who always know they’re going to get the ball back in good position, I think has a downstream effect on chemistry and synergy in both a game and over the course of a season.

    102. jon abbey

      so what are our best offensive and defensive units now, let’s say regardless of matchups? here’s a guess:

      offense: Kidd/Smith/Novak/Melo/Amare (or Felton instead of JR?)
      defense: Kidd/Smith/Brewer/Camby/Chandler (with Shumpie bumping Smith when and if he gets back to himself)

    103. Eric Chen

      Z-man:
      Tp Eric Chen, welcome aboard.I think everything you said about Lin’s abilities is based on true statistical and observable data from Lin’s short Knicks career as a full-time player.

      Weighing against that was:

      Thanks, Z-Man. Fair concerns and we’ll have the answers by this time next year. I’ll address a few.

      If Lin had been matched, I doubt the end-stage drama would have followed. I believe Lin when he says he came away from the June LA meeting with Anthony and Woodson happy about next season. Unlike Stoudemire and his frontcourt mates, there are few technical reasons for Lin and Anthony’s games to clash. If Westbrook and Durant’s narrower games can co-exist, Lin and Anthony’s versatile games certainly should co-exist and, more, complement.

      Lin says he’s working hard on his left. He can go left now against average defenses and defenses that overplay his right. He compensates with an exceptional right and a killer cross-over – more than enough handle for a combo. Assuming Lin doesn’t tighten his handle from combo to PG, the question is whether it’s good enough against elite defensive pressure to go where he needs to in order to run Woodson’s halfcourt sets. Their 7 games together last season were promising. Woodson’s sets lessened the PG ball-handling load on Lin. I think Lin’s ball-handling at PG will be a bigger issue for the Rockets than it would have been in Woodson’s system.

      The Knicks could have further mitigated ball-handling worries by playing Kidd and Lin together against the elite defenses. Lin’s combo game is a tailor-made complement to Kidd.

      For Lin’s cost, I’ll go back to this: How much is an Eli, even a raw 2008 Eli, worth in the play-offs? How many Knicks have the clutch gene to make game/series changing plays and will out wins? The top teams hoard the clutch gene. I think Kidd-Lin-Anthony would have…

    104. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Again, so why haven’t you talked about the Knicks adding 3 of the top 25 players in the NBA from 2011?

      he has talked about it a million times on other threads, if you want to criticize, you should at least read the actual posts, instead of posting all of your versions of the “this team is obviously a contender and whoever thinks otherwise is stupid and knows nothing about basketball” bullshit.

    105. ephus

      In his entire career, Lenny Wilkens never went to his right hand, and somehow he made it to the HOF.

    106. bobneptune

      DRed: Well, when you’re talking about Jason Kidd getting worse, you’re starting from a pretty high mark.

      Actually we are not. The NJN/PHX Kidd is just a fond memory. Since 2007-8 he has been declining without fail. I’m talking about his decline from the championship year to last year. Those other Kidds are gone forever.

      Starting from 2007-8 his ws/48 have been declining to .103 last year and nothing points to anything but decline further as he turns 40. Usage down, assists% down, TO% up. Refuses/can’t get to the rim.

    107. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: he has talked about it a million times on other threads, if you want to criticize, you should at least read the actual posts, instead of posting all of your versions of the “this team is obviously a contender and whoever thinks otherwise is stupid and knows nothing about basketball” bullshit.

      He’s mentioned that they were nice additions a couple of times, but he’s also gone out of his way to downplay their potential impact.

      I guess I figured if someone was so dogmatic about a metric he would be much more excited when that metric reveals that the team he roots for just acquired three elite NBA players.

      With Chandler, the Knicks now have 4 of the top 25 players in the NBA from 2011 (Kidd, Camby, Brewer).

      Imagine if the Knicks had kept Fields?

    108. bobneptune

      jon abbey:
      so what are our best offensive and defensive units now, let’s say regardless of matchups? here’s a guess:

      offense: Kidd/Smith/Novak/Melo/Amare (or Felton instead of JR?)
      defense: Kidd/Smith/Brewer/Camby/Chandler (with Shumpie bumping Smith when and if he gets back to himself)

      The Kidd/Felton/Novak/Amar’e/Melo group might be the worst defensive team ever.

      The Kidd/ smith/Brewer/Camby/Chandler unit an’t score a single point.

      This is the problem with the knicks as currently constructed; they have a lot of one way players and few 2 way players. Unfortunately, this isn’t the nfl where you get to change personnel every time the ball changes hands.

    109. Eric Chen

      ephus:
      In his entire career, Lenny Wilkens never went to his right hand, and somehow he made it to the HOF.

      ephus, kudos for your CBA stuff. You can’t revisit the subject enough. A byproduct of lurking at KB is being awakened to how much the media, including beat writers, and fans get wrong about NBA moves because they don’t have a working knowledge of the CBA.

      2 more observations about Lin’s left. He’s good at starting a drive with his weaker left but working back to his stronger right. He can also compensate with his strong post-up game. As is, he finishes many of his drives with essentially a post-up move. Although he has fewer options driving left, if he can get to the spot he wants, he adds options by transitioning into a post-up move. Few teams post up their PGs the traditional away, but Kidd likes to do it. If Woodson incorporates a few PG post-ups for Kidd, he could have featured Lin in them, too.

    110. ruruland

      bobneptune: Actually we are not. The NJN/PHX Kidd is justa fond memory. Since 2007-8 he has been declining without fail. I’m talking about his decline from the championship year to last year. Those other Kidds are gone forever.

      Starting from 2007-8 his ws/48 have been declining to .103 last year and nothing points to anything but decline further as he turns 40. Usage down, assists% down, TO% up. Refuses/can’t get to the rim.

      Look at his 34-year old year in NJ

    111. jon abbey

      bobneptune: The Kidd/Felton/Novak/Amar’e/Melo group might be the worst defensive team ever.

      The Kidd/ smith/Brewer/Camby/Chandler unit an’t score a single point.

      This is the problem with the knicks as currently constructed; they have a lot of one way players and few 2 way players. Unfortunately, this isn’t the nfl where you get to change personnel every time the ball changes hands.

      yep, agreed, but not my question. I said a few threads back that if Dolan can just get the NBA to give each team 200 timeouts per game, we are serious title contenders.

    112. ruruland

      jon abbey: yep, agreed, but not my question. I said a few threads back that if Dolan can just get the NBA to give each team 200 timeouts per game, we are serious title contenders.

      Dallas had a lot of so called “one-way” players in 2010, but Carlisle was very adept at mixing and matching depending on opponent.

      Against Miami I’d like to see 20 minutes of Melo, Brewer, Shumpert, Smith, Felton — trapping Lebron pick and rolls and forcing others to isolate, either Bosh vs Melo or Wade vs Shumpert.

      Against Indiana, for example, I’d go Amar’e (vs Hibbert), Melo (vs West), Smith, Shump, Kidd.

      Boston I would play big with their rebounding issues — Camby, Chandler, Amare/Melo, Smith/Novak, Felton….

      Against, Chicago, I’d go Felton, Kidd, Shumpert/Smith, Melo, Chandler/Amare

      So many nice permutations

    113. JK47

      Knicks fans better hope “good” JR Smith shows up and “bad” JR Smith isn’t around, because if the 2010 or 2012 version of Smith shows up the Knicks won’t have a single guard who is a competent offensive player.

    114. Z-man

      Eric, your points are well taken. Lin may go to become a HOFer and not matching may turn out to be an all-time blunder.

      Or, Lin may struggle to remain a quality starter in this league for the next 3 years.

      Defense and durability are concerns as well. If we were talking a normal contract, or a non “win now” situation, or a situation where a non-competent PG was available,I would have been much more upset about not matching.

      Working on a skill doesn’t guarantee success, esp in the short run. Landry Fields is a recent example, Wilt and Shaq FTs are historic examples. Banking on improvement in a fundamental skill is a risk, esp at that price at this time.

      Lin could be Eli, Sanchez, Tebow..There is no way of knowing.

    115. Z-man

      Re: the Eli comparison, Eli was an absolute stud in college, the question was whether he’d live up to his college numbers. Lin was a combo guard with a mediocre perimeter game in a third-rate conference. Not a barrier, but certainly suggests that it would be nice to have more NBA data before lavishing him with tens of millions, esp with Felton available for 1/6 of the cost.

    116. Z-man

      Re the clutch gene, Lin was very impressive in a very limited sample of games. Certainly that is promising, and probably why this issue is so polarizing. Rondo seems to make those big plays in the clutch as well. Still, too little data to conclude that it is sustainable.

    117. Eric Chen

      Z-man:
      Re the clutch gene, Lin was very impressive in a very limited sample of games. Certainly that is promising, and probably why this issue is so polarizing. Rondo seems to make those big plays in the clutch as well. Still, too little data to conclude that it is sustainable.

      Lin does have a track record for stepping up as an underdog, and the Knicks would be the underdog v Heat, and maybe v Celtics, in the play-offs. Lin’s Palo Alto v Mater Dei in HS, v UConn, BC, Georgetown in college, then v Wall. Then his clutch games from the start of Linsanity to the 76ers game.

      2 more thoughts:
      1. Lin is more likely to start a Hall of Fame track on the Rockets, with his Nash-to-Suns centerpiece move, than he would have had he stayed to co-star on the Knicks. But whereas the Rockets are looking to Lin to be like Nash, Lin would have helped the Knicks best not by being Nash or Linsanity, but rather by doing what he did best at Harvard: all-purpose, fill-in-the-blanks guard play. Lin’s calling card at Harvard wasn’t Linsanity ball-dominant scoring, but rather his across-the-board, whatever-the-team-needs production. When the Crimson needed him to score big, Lin filled in that blank, like he did with the shorthanded Knicks. The Knicks guards next season are mix-and-match specialists; Lin’s smart all-purpose game would have balanced any guard he was paired with. I think the Knicks will miss Lin’s versatility most of all.

      2. What is the floor for Lin next season? Worst-case basement is the left-footed leaper can’t play due to a chronic left knee condition. The reasonable ground floor for Lin, if he regresses, I think is a better version of 2010 Mavs-version Barea. That would mean a Knicks core of Melo as Dirk, Chandler as Chandler, (older) Kidd as (old) Kidd, and Lin as Barea-on-steroids – enough maybe for a fighting chance v Heat?

    118. Eric Chen

      Add: About Felton v Lin. But statement: I liked Felton when he played with Stoudemire under D’Antoni, but he was streaky in 2010, too. Bigger but: Felton is not the right kind of guard to win in the play-offs; Lin is the right kind.

      The Knicks went out of their way to sign facilitator PGs this off-season for their “clumsy” fitting Big 3: Felton, Kidd, Prigioni. And they’ll work fine in the regular season. But as teams advance in the play-offs, systems get trumped by play-off defense. Winning deep into the play-offs requires several outside-in iso scorers, with playmaking and ball movement. That’s Lin’s game; Nash’s game, too. The backcourt needs to create scores. See Westbrook/Durant/Harden (ball movement needs to get better), James/Wade, Ginobili/Parker, Pierce/Rondo(streaky)/Allen. The Knicks now have Anthony who fits the bill, but who are the other Knicks perimeter iso scorers? None of the current PGs. Equal chance explode/implode JR Smith is the only candidate. Kidd worked well for the Mavs in 2010-11 because he paired with perimeter scorers Barea and Terry.

      Lin’s reasonable floor is Mavs Barea-on-steroids – he would have been the Knicks other perimeter iso scorer. Felton has a more established track record than Lin; unfortunately, his track record says his type of game at PG isn’t right for the post-season. Lin’s NBA track record is short, but he’s the right type of guard to win in the play-offs. Lin with Felton and/or Kidd is a lot closer to a play-off winning formula. Replacing Lin with a cheaper Felton pushes the Knicks away from ultimate play-off success: penny-wise, pound-foolish.

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