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Wednesday, April 16, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Jan 09 2013)

  • [New York Times] Chandler Finds New Way to Grab Rebounds: He Doesn’t (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 07:00:40 GMT)
    With a flick of his hand, Tyson Chandler is making some of his rebounds look a lot more like assists for the Knicks.

  • [New York Times] Phil Jackson Has â??No Intention’ of Coaching (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:37:38 GMT)
    Phil Jackson, the No. 1 target in the Nets’ coaching search, told a Web site on Tuesday that he has “no intentionâ? of returning to the bench, although his statement left room for a change of heart.

  • [New York Times] Nets 109, 76ers 89: Nets Control Boards and 76ers (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:37:38 GMT)
    Reggie Evans refocused the Nets’ attention from a sexual assault investigation, as he grabbed 23 rebounds and Deron Williams scored 22 points to help the team defeat the 76ers.

  • [New York Times] Blatche Questioned as Witness in Sexual Assault, but Is Not Charged (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:37:38 GMT)
    Andray Blatche, who is not being accused of any wrongdoing, was among three men and three women who were together inside a room at the Nets’ hotel.

  • [New York Times] Anthony Says Garnett’s Trash Talk Affected His Game (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:37:19 GMT)
    The N.B.A. is expected to make a ruling before the next Knicks game on whether Carmelo Anthony will be suspended for trying to confront the Celtics’ Kevin Garnett after Monday’s game.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Surging Pacers Hold Heat to 77 Points, a Season Low (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:30:05 GMT)
    Paul George had 29 points and 11 rebounds, and the Indiana Pacers held the Miami Heat to a season-low point total in an 87-77 win Tuesday in Indianapolis.

  • [New York Times] Timberwolves Overcome Lost Love to Clip Hawks (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:22:25 GMT)
    The Minnesota Timberwolves coped with the absence of head coach Rick Adelman and All Star forward Kevin Love to beat Atlanta 108-103 on Tuesday, ending a near seven-year winless run against the Hawks.

  • [New York Times] Rockets Beat Lakers 125-112 for 5th Straight Win (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 06:16:32 GMT)
    Sure the Los Angeles Lakers are short-handed.

  • [New York Times] Bucks Beat Suns 108-99 in Boylan’s First Game (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 04:40:33 GMT)
    Brandon Jennings glanced over and expected to see coach Scott Skiles on the end of the Milwaukee Bucks’ bench. Instead, he saw Jim Boylan sitting in Skiles’ old spot.

  • [New York Times] Coach Adelman Misses Game but Timberwolves Still Beat Hawks (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 04:19:24 GMT)
    The Minnesota Timberwolves coped with the absence of head coach Rick Adelman and All Star forward Kevin Love to beat Atlanta 108-103 on Tuesday, ending a near seven-year winless run against the Hawks.

  • [New York Times] George Scores 29 to Lead Pacers Over Heat 87-77 (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 03:58:32 GMT)
    Paul George made no attempt to downplay the importance of his matchup with LeBron James.

  • [New York Times] Pekovic Powers Wolves Over Slumping Hawks, 108-103 (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 03:46:39 GMT)
    Nikola Pekovic had 25 points and a career-high 18 rebounds, Andrei Kirilenko added 21 points and the Minnesota Timberwolves beat the Atlanta Hawks 108-103 on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Evans, Williams Lead Nets to 109-89 Win Over 76ers (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 02:35:30 GMT)
    Reggie Evans grabbed a career-high 23 rebounds, Deron Williams scored 22 points and the Brooklyn Nets improved to 6-1 under interim coach P.J. Carlesimo with a 109-89 win over the Philadelphia 76ers on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Bucks GM: Skiles Out as Coach, Boylan to Fill In (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 01:10:43 GMT)
    Once again, an NBA team has parted ways with head coach Scott Skiles. Once again, veteran assistant Jim Boylan is being asked to pick up the pieces.

  • [New York Daily News] Cereal Offender! Knicks star spats with Celtic for ‘Cheerios’ comment about estranged wife (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 07:00:05 GMT)
    Knicks star Carmelo Anthony lost his cool after Boston Celtics bigmouth Kevin Garnett reportedly said his wife “tastes like Honey Nut Cheeriosâ? â?? a dig at Anthony, who is estranged from his sweet spouse. The NBA superstars nearly came to blows Monday night after Garnett incorporated the General Mills cereal in a fit of trash talking about reality TV-star La La Anthony.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Knicks’ Anthony must learn to Melo out (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 04:10:13 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony needs to lose the rabbit ears, pronto. Anthony needs to keep making the Knicks a threat to the Miami Heat and start tuning out opponents.

  • [New York Daily News] BUS YOU UP: After physical game, Melo stalks Celts charter (Wed, 09 Jan 2013 02:38:35 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony couldn’t beat Kevin Garnett and the Celtics on the court, so he was intent on settling a score in the bowels of Madison Square Garden. Anthony waited for Garnett near the Celtics bus following Boston’s emotionally charged 102-96 victory, witnesses said.

  • 131 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Jan 09 2013)

    1. d-mar

      Any news yet on possible Melo suspension? Unfortunately, I think the NBA may do something just to show it won’t tolerate that kind of stuff. And unless someone mikes up KG, he’ll always get off scot free.

      I’d be really impressed if we could win the next 2, Indy is playing really well right now, and we know all about our issues vs. Chicago.

    2. DS

      Can one of you stat heads explain to me why CP3′s WP/48 is higher this year than his best years with New Orleans? Other than steals, it seems like his stats are not any better. Is it DWS and the lower usage rate?

      It’s hard to believe that anyone is playing better per minute than Durant, with the way he is shooting.

    3. DS

      d-mar: Any news yet on possible Melo suspension? Unfortunately, I think the NBA may do something just to show it won’t tolerate that kind of stuff. And unless someone mikes up KG, he’ll always get off scot free.

      No news. I guess it’s possible Stern will want to set a precedent about waiting for opponents by team buses, but personally, it seems like ‘Melo didn’t tee off badly enough to get himself suspended.

    4. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Thank you Iserp, that was exactly my point all along. You’ll notice that the Thunder haven’t exactly gotten worse even though James Harden was supposed to be their best player this year.

      On another note, I couldn’t be happier to see James Harden tearing up the league, although he has become an absolutely atrocious defender. I’m also worried about how the Rockets super fast pace will translate in the playoffs, which at this point it seems they are going to make.

      This is a +/- fallacy. The Thunder have Sefalosha, who is an awesome basketball player in nearly every respect. Trading Harden was still a bad move IMO, but it’s mitigated by the fact that they have a ridiculously talented backup SG who’s now backed up by a fantastic shooter in Martin, both of which now get more minutes.

      My argument has always been against the idea that Martin and Harden are somehow interchangeable, when it’s clear that Harden is the superior basketball player — and younger.

    5. cgreene

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This is a +/- fallacy. The Thunder have Sefalosha, who is an awesome basketball player in nearly every respect. Trading Harden was still a bad move IMO, but it’s mitigated by the fact that they have a ridiculously talented backup SG who’s now backed up by a fantastic shooter in Martin, both of which now get more minutes.

      My argument has always been against the idea that Martin and Harden are somehow interchangeable, when it’s clear that Harden is the superior basketball player — and younger.

      It’s actually a great proof point for interaction effects and roles. On the Thunder both players have the same or similar impact on wins and on the Rockets Harden is clearly the superior player. But to say you didn’t say his TS% would be stable is disingenuous… and that’s being generous.

    6. iserp

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: My argument has always been against the idea that Martin and Harden are somehow interchangeable, when it’s clear that Harden is the superior basketball player — and younger.

      Ok, that’s fine. But Martin for Harden swap wasn’t based purely on a basketball perspective but on an economic one.

      That said, Martin was going to replace Harden in his role and viceversa; so their numbers changed. Harden is more efficient as a SG in Houston than K. Martin as a SG in Houston, and Harden was a more efficient SG in OKC than Martin now is. But the SG in OKC is always more efficient than the SG in Houston… Because OKC plays differently than Houston. You might argue that Houston is not playing the right way, and a proper coach could maximize Harden’s value. But it was not fair to compare Harden and Martin with a stat that doesn’t take into account role (WP48). Now that the roles are reversed, Kevin Martin looks much better.

    7. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This is a +/- fallacy. The Thunder have Sefalosha, who is an awesome basketball player in nearly every respect. Trading Harden was still a bad move IMO, but it’s mitigated by the fact that they have a ridiculously talented backup SG who’s now backed up by a fantastic shooter in Martin, both of which now get more minutes.

      My argument has always been against the idea that Martin and Harden are somehow interchangeable, when it’s clear that Harden is the superior basketball player — and younger.

      Kevin Martin is shooting a career high in TS%. Harden is shooting 7 points lower than last year, a pretty calamitous drop for any player. The only person who didn’t predict those kind of changes was you, nobody else thought their numbers would just remain at their career levels. You can keep twisting the argument all you want, I’m still waiting to laugh when the Nuggets and Wolves get about 3 combined playoff wins after being declared contenders by WP.

    8. knicknyk

      Well Lin & Harden are balling & the Rockets are making everything look really easy. The Lakers are loosing & likely will not make the playoffs & if they do they will face the Spurs or OKC. Who would have thought that the Rockets would be a top team in the West boasting one of the best backcourts in the NBA & the Lakers would be a hot pile of steaming trash.

    9. Juany8

      knicknyk:
      Well Lin & Harden are balling & the Rockets are making everything look really easy. The Lakers are loosing & likely will not make the playoffs & if they do they will face the Spurs or OKC. Who would have thought that the Rockets would be a top team in the West boasting one of the best backcourts in the NBA & the Lakers would be a hot pile of steaming trash.

      Well there’s a big jump between the 7th seed and “a top team in the west” but it is nice to see the Rockets do well. Still they were on pace to make the playoffs last season before collapsing, so I’m going to wait a bit more before getting too excited. Team still needs another big piece before making serious noise anyways.

    10. Owen

      Kevin Martin has a long track record of scoring very efficiently. He has posted five seasons of above 60% ts%. I am not sure why anyone is surprised that he is doing what he is doing right now. From what I can tell the only thing that really has ever stopped him from doing so is injuries. Not that scoring efficiently is all that matters of course, but this is not a surprise from Kev-Mart.

      And the fact that Harden is off his pace from last year should really not be an argument against anything. The numbers Harden put up last year were some of the best IN NBA HISTORY for a guard. Anyone who expected him to replicate it exactly doesn’t understand regression to the mean or basketball. Harden is a solid bet to finish right around his three year average for ts%. Other things have changed but he still has been pretty amazing. And his Rockets are creeping up on the Knicks in SRS.

      It’s hard for me to see any argument that Harden’s play this year is evidence against the notion that players are relatively consistent across teams and even roles.

      Harden was and remains a great basketball player and the kind of guy I wish we had sold the farm for rather than Melo.

    11. DRed

      Juany8: Kevin Martin is shooting a career high in TS%. Harden is shooting 7 points lower than last year, a pretty calamitous drop for any player. The only person who didn’t predict those kind of changes was you, nobody else thought their numbers would just remain at their career levels. You can keep twisting the argument all you want, I’m still waiting to laugh when the Nuggets and Wolves get about 3 combined playoff wins after being declared contenders by WP.

      Harden’s basically shooting at his career average TS%

    12. Juany8

      DRed: Harden’s basically shooting at his career average TS%

      Career numbers mean a lot less when you’re still on your rookie contract…

    13. flossy

      Juany8: Team still needs another big piece before making serious noise anyways.

      Would love to see them add Josh Smith (though his numbers have been off this year?) or Paul Millsap (who seems less well suited to a breakneck pace but might be the better player) this offseason.

    14. Juany8

      Owen:
      Kevin Martin has a long track record of scoring very efficiently. He has posted five seasons of above 60% ts%. I am not sure why anyone is surprised that he is doing what he is doing right now. From what I can tell the only thing that really has ever stopped him from doing so is injuries. Not that scoring efficiently is all that matters of course, but this is not a surprise from Kev-Mart.

      And the fact that Harden is off his pace from last year should really not be an argument against anything. The numbers Harden put up last year were some of the best IN NBA HISTORY for a guard. Anyone who expected him to replicate it exactly doesn’t understand regression to the mean or basketball. Harden is a solid bet to finish right around his three year average for ts%. Other things have changed but he still has been pretty amazing. And his Rockets are creeping up on the Knicks in SRS.

      It’s hard for me to see any argument that Harden’s play this year is evidence against the notion that players are relatively consistent across teams and even roles.

      Harden was and remains a great basketball player and the kind of guy I wish we had sold the farm for rather than Melo.

      Kevin Martin has put up efficient season throughout his career, but he’s putting up a career high number right now, in his like 9th season in the league. Somehow it’s supposed to be a coincidence that he’s playing on a contender after all these years?

    15. Juany8

      DRed: I think you’ve missed my point.

      No I think your point was meaningless. A guy’s career numbers mean nothing until he’s had a fair bit of a career. Harden is supposed to improve as time goes on, like every other player in the NBA, and his rookie year is as of now a third of his career.

    16. Juany8

      By the way, the only people arguing that Harden has somehow gotten worse since last year is these silly little box score stats. I think he’s been a better player this year than last year in everything but defense. The fact that Harden’s numbers have gotten worse is actually part of my point about WS and WP being a joke

    17. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: No I think your point was meaningless. A guy’s career numbers mean nothing until he’s had a fair bit of a career. Harden is supposed to improve as time goes on, like every other player in the NBA, and his rookie year is as of now a third of his career.

      The guy increased his volume by something like 50% with a small reduction in scoring efficiency. What point of yours has been proven?

    18. DRed

      Juany8: No I think your point was meaningless. A guy’s career numbers mean nothing until he’s had a fair bit of a career. Harden is supposed to improve as time goes on, like every other player in the NBA, and his rookie year is as of now a third of his career.

      Harden’s clearly better now than when he was his first 2 years in the leauge. Maybe last year was an outlier. That’s the thing about choosing individual players to make a point about the league as a whole-it doesn’t work. Generally players improve after they enter the league. This does not mean that every player improves every season in an identical fashion. Are you being obtuse?

      You were knocking the jowly cock by saying that he was the only one who thought the players in the harden deal would maintain their career efficiency-and James Harden’s TS% is .2 off his career average. I pointed that out, and your response is ‘well, his career average doesn’t matter’. So why the fuck did you bring it up?

    19. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: The guy increased his volume by something like 50% with a small reduction in scoring efficiency. What point of yours has been proven?

      .660 TS% to .603% isn’t a small reduction, it’s a pretty significant drop. He’s been great and worthy of a max contract but that doesn’t mean his efficiency hasn’t suffered a real drop. If he’d kept up a .660 TS at his current usage he’d be a top five player regardless of his crappy defense- at .603 he’s basically Kevin Martin in his Sacto days- solid all-star but not elite.

    20. Juany8

      Lol alright I’m done with this, I’m gonna keep posting on this site but it’s no longer fun to troll you guys back, you’re now trying to pretend you won arguments everyone knows you lost. I’m gonna go enjoy the fact that a team led by Carmelo Anthony has a better point differential than the Heat despite major injury issues. I’m also going to enjoy the fact that the Rockets got a top 3 SG at a great price, even if he’s not the uber monster stats pretend he is. You guys can keep trying to convince people that anything you say makes sense

    21. Knicks4Eva

      The media here in Seattle is reporting that a deal has been reached for the Kings to move to Seattle (and be renamed the Sonics).

      If it happens, I’ll get to see my Knicks at least once a year.

    22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8:
      Lol alright I’m done with this, I’m gonna keep posting on this site but it’s no longer fun to troll you guys back, you’re now trying to pretend you won arguments everyone knows you lost. I’m gonna go enjoy the fact that a team led by Carmelo Anthony has a better point differential than the Heat despite major injury issues. I’m also going to enjoy the fact that the Rockets got a top 3 SG at a great price, even if he’s not the uber monster stats pretend he is. You guys can keep trying to convince people that anything you say makes sense

      HAHAHAHAH

      BYE BYE LI’L DUDE

    23. Juany8

      flossy: Would love to see them add Josh Smith (though his numbers have been off this year?) or Paul Millsap (who seems less well suited to a breakneck pace but might be the better player) this offseason.

      Why not both ;) Those guys are nice options for the Rockets, but Smith is the better options since the Rockets need defense quite seriously. Asik is a beast but Harden and Lin have just been bad guarding the pick and roll this year, they need a PF who can at least help them cover up. Varejao would have been a decent option before he got hurt, although I don’t know how they would have traded for him. Rockets have an issue where the only unknowns on the roster are PF’s (the rookies) and none of them are going to be tradeable for an upgrade at PF. It’s going to cost them Parsons to make any major trade, unless they can get a third team involved (which the rockets are very good at doing lol)

      Darkhorse in all of this? Demarcus Cousins. Not only is the the type of player the rockets are willing to take a risk on, Sacramento and the Rockets have had a very nice trading relationship historically. Not sure how the new ownership affects that, if they clean house and want to move to Seattle with a “face of the franchise” then it’s all pointless

    24. flossy

      nicos: .660 TS% to .603% isn’t a small reduction, it’s a pretty significant drop.He’s been great and worthy of a max contract but that doesn’t mean his efficiency hasn’t suffered a real drop.If he’d kept up a .660 TS at his current usage he’d be a top five player regardless of his crappy defense- at .603 he’s basically Kevin Martin in his Sacto days- solid all-star but not elite.

      This has got to be a joke. You are joking, right? Not elite?? Aside from Harden, do you know how many other players this year have a TS% above .600 with a useage of 29% or higher? LeBron James and… that’s it. (Carmelo is just shy of the TS% threshold and Durant is just shy of the usage threshold).

      Hell, there have only been 21 players seasons like that, EVER.

      If Harden had maintained a .660 TS% while increasing his usage to 29%, he’d have blown the previous record out of the water by 25 points. Does ANYONE seriously think THCJ or anyone else was seriously suggesting he’d do that? Have the best scoring season OF ALL TIME, in his first year as the #1 option on his team?

      Kevin Martin may be able to fill a role as a good high-efficiency scorer off the bench for a team stacked with other great players, but he is not fit to sniff James Harden’s jock strap, and anyone suggesting they are basically interchangeable or saying that Harden is not elite… needs to take a nap.

    25. iserp

      Owen: Kevin Martin has a long track record of scoring very efficiently. He has posted five seasons of above 60% ts%. I am not sure why anyone is surprised that he is doing what he is doing right now. From what I can tell the only thing that really has ever stopped him from doing so is injuries. Not that scoring efficiently is all that matters of course, but this is not a surprise from Kev-Mart.

      Well, 4 of those seasons happened when he was in Sacramento. For the sake of the argument let’s look just at his Houston’s seasons (he has suffered injuries while in houston, but that is also true when he was in sac)

      DRed: Harden’s basically shooting at his career average TS%

      I think that taking the 3d year numbers instead of averaging over the first 3 years gives you something closer to the (future) career averages.

    26. iserp

      flossy: Does ANYONE seriously think THCJ or anyone else was seriously suggesting he’d do that?

      THCJ suggested that. WP48 dont take into account usage, so any increase is supposed to take no effect in his efficiency.

    27. Juany8

      flossy: This has got to be a joke.You are joking, right?Not elite??Aside from Harden, do you know how many other players this year have a TS% above .600 with a useage of 29% or higher?LeBron James and… that’s it.(Carmelo is just shy of the TS% threshold and Durant is just shy of the usage threshold).

      Hell, there have only been 21 players seasons like that, EVER.

      If Harden had maintained a .660 TS% while increasing his usage to 29%, he’d have blown the previous record out of the water by 25 points.Does ANYONE seriously think THCJ or anyone else was seriously suggesting he’d do that?Have the best scoring season OF ALL TIME, in his first year as the #1 option on his team?

      Kevin Martin may be able to fill a role as a good high-efficiency scorer off the bench for a team stacked with other great players, but he is not fit to sniff James Harden’s jock strap, and anyone suggesting they are basically interchangeable or saying that Harden is not elite… needs to take a nap.

      Harden’s role on the Thunder was very replaceable by Kevin Martin, which is why the trade occurred, no one said Martin was better than Harden, and the Thunder still lost NOTHING. As it turns out, it is very possible to trade a consistent all star (James Harden) for a much worse player (Kevin Martin) and as long as their roles are changing, the team won’t be affected that much. The Rockets of course get better since Harden is a much better first option than Martin is.

      The point? You can’t evaluate players independently of their role, and Harden was nowhere near as valuable last year as it’s been assumed, he has been certainly more valuable this year despite the huge drop in TS%.

    28. flossy

      Juany8: Why not both ;) Those guys are nice options for the Rockets, but Smith is the better options since the Rockets need defense quite seriously. Asik is a beast but Harden and Lin have just been bad guarding the pick and roll this year, they need a PF who can at least help them cover up. Varejao would have been a decent option before he got hurt, although I don’t know how they would have traded for him. Rockets have an issue where the only unknowns on the roster are PF’s (the rookies) and none of them are going to be tradeable for an upgrade at PF. It’s going to cost them Parsons to make any major trade, unless they can get a third team involved (which the rockets are very good at doing lol)

      Darkhorse in all of this? Demarcus Cousins. Not only is the the type of player the rockets are willing to take a risk on, Sacramento and the Rockets have had a very nice trading relationship historically. Not sure how the new ownership affects that, if they clean house and want to move to Seattle with a “face of the franchise” then it’s all pointless

      Interesting… I hadn’t thought about Cousins, but unless Sacto holds a dumpster fire on their way out of town I don’t see Houston having the goods to land him without giving up Parsons. I suppose they could do that and try to fill the SF gap in the offseason (Josh Smith?? Maybe that’s too many knuckleheads for one team).

      I’d feel bad for Jeremy Lin though… losing your partner in bromance is one thing, but having him turn into DeMarcus Cousins must be the worst feeling in the world lol

    29. flossy

      iserp: THCJ suggested that. WP48 dont take into account usage, so any increase is supposed to take no effect in his efficiency.

      I’m not going to go back in the archives and look, but anyone suggesting that James Harden was likely to have the best scoring season of all time has a screw loose, and while THCJ might qualify I don’t think he’d make or defend a prediction as insane as that.

      It was easy (for me at least) to see that based on Harden’s prodigious efficiency as a bench scorer in OKC and his obvious (eye test!) offensive talents that he could easily take on an increased role and maintain elite (yes, elite) scoring efficiency even with a massive increase in volume and change in role. And that is exactly what happened, James Harden is a top 5 scorer in the NBA and an elite player, period, no question about it.

    30. flossy

      Juany8: Harden’s role on the Thunder was very replaceable by Kevin Martin, which is why the trade occurred, no one said Martin was better than Harden, and the Thunder still lost NOTHING. As it turns out, it is very possible to trade a consistent all star (James Harden) for a much worse player (Kevin Martin) and as long as their roles are changing, the team won’t be affected that much. The Rockets of course get better since Harden is a much better first option than Martin is.

      The point? You can’t evaluate players independently of their role, and Harden was nowhere near as valuable last year as it’s been assumed, he has been certainly more valuable this year despite the huge drop in TS%.

      Don’t disagree with this–it’s the notion that a TS% above .600 with a usage north of 29% is “solid” but not elite. Literally every GM in the NBA would kill to have a scorer like Harden. The fact that he was underused in OKC is not a reflection on him, nor does the fact that Kevin Martin can competently fill that comparatively much easier role reflect poorly on Harden.

      If all this teaches us anything, it’s that OKC screwed the pooch by not keeping Harden and trading Russell Westbrook to NO for Chris Paul back before CP3 landed with the Clips. Can you imagine?

    31. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      flossy: If all this teaches us anything, it’s that OKC screwed the pooch by not keeping Harden and trading Russell Westbrook to NO for Chris Paul back before CP3 landed with the Clips. Can you imagine?

      70-win team.

    32. iserp

      flossy: I’m not going to go back in the archives and look, but anyone suggesting that James Harden was likely to have the best scoring season of all time has a screw loose, and while THCJ might qualify I don’t think he’d make or defend a prediction as insane as that.
      It was easy (for me at least) to see that based on Harden’s prodigious efficiency as a bench scorer in OKC and his obvious (eye test!) offensive talents that he could easily take on an increased role and maintain elite (yes, elite) scoring efficiency even with a massive increase in volume and change in role. And that is exactly what happened, James Harden is a top 5 scorer in the NBA and an elite player, period, no question about it.

      Yes, i’m not questioning that… but since his efficiency was going to drop (because he was going to have a much higher usage) and WP48 doesn’t care about usage. Then, his WP48 was bound to drop. The reverse argument for Kevin Martin. And i’ve been using all this to discredit WP48 to compare players with different roles, because it is not stable under change of roles (while PER is much more stable, even if he has different flaws).

      I am not sure why the discussion changed from a debate about WP48 to a debate about James Harden and Kevin Martin.

      I fully believe JH is a much a better player, and IMO, Oklahoma should’ve kept him for a better shot at a title this year. However, Presti was proactive and OKC looks good right now (even if he could have been better this year with Harden, they just looked ahead)

    33. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      iserp: THCJ suggested that. WP48 dont take into account usage, so any increase is supposed to take no effect in his efficiency.

      WHA? No way would I make that claim. I merely suggested that he wouldn’t suddenly unlearn how to be awesome at basketball shooting, which he hasn’t.

    34. iserp

      flossy:

      If all this teaches us anything, it’s that OKC screwed the pooch by not keeping Harden and trading Russell Westbrook to NO for Chris Paul back before CP3 landed with the Clips.Can you imagine?

      Some time ago everyone was worrying about CP3 knees…

    35. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      iserp: I fully believe JH is a much a better player, and IMO, Oklahoma should’ve kept him for a better shot at a title this year. However, Presti was proactive and OKC looks good right now (even if he could have been better this year with Harden, they just looked ahead)

      If they wanted to look ahead, they should have kept the 23-year-old. It was about money and Russell Westbrook.

    36. flossy

      iserp: Some time ago everyone was worrying about CP3 knees…

      Welp, joke’s on them… and also, Chris Paul could drag himself around on two bloody stumps and still be a better PG than Russell Westbrook, IMO

    37. Juany8

      flossy: Don’t disagree with this–it’s the notion that a TS% above .600 with a usage north of 29% is “solid” but not elite.Literally every GM in the NBA would kill to have a scorer like Harden.The fact that he was underused in OKC is not a reflection on him, nor does the fact that Kevin Martin can competently fill that comparatively much easier role reflect poorly on Harden.

      If all this teaches us anything, it’s that OKC screwed the pooch by not keeping Harden and trading Russell Westbrook to NO for Chris Paul back before CP3 landed with the Clips.Can you imagine?

      James Harden is an awesome offensive player, I’d put him as the 6th best pure offensive player this season (After Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul, Kobe, and Melo) and he certainly has room to improve in non pick and roll portions of his game. I happen to think the Westbrook is just as good a player overall as Harden though, so we’ll have to agree to disagree on that. Harden is just a total liability on defense, and while Westbrook isn’t as consistent as you’d like, he also has stretches where he is dominant on that end.

    38. iserp

      flossy: Welp, joke’s on them… and also, Chris Paul could drag himself around on two bloody stumps and still be a better PG than Russell Westbrook, IMO

      I am not sure about that. For me, he relies in his speed quite a lot. Time will tell…

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: WHA? No way would I make that claim. I merely suggested that he wouldn’t suddenly unlearn how to be awesome at basketball shooting, which he hasn’t.

      So, if awesome accepts a 6% drop, OK. What did you say about 54% shooting Kevin Martin and the 50-32 OKC Thunders?

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: If they wanted to look ahead, they should have kept the 23-year-old. It was about money and Russell Westbrook.

      Well, you could say it is more about Ibaka and timing. A good PF gives them a more balanced team, and they had to extend Westbrook first.

    39. Juany8

      One thing to keep in mind in the Harden trade is that OKC is getting 2 lottery picks (Lamb and next year’s Toronto pick) that have made zero impact on the team so far. They also have a super talented late pick (PJ3) on the team, also doing nothing. If any of those players become above average rotation players, the league is fucked. Considering the role he was going to be playing in OKC, I think they might actually be better off without Harden.

    40. nicos

      flossy: This has got to be a joke.You are joking, right?Not elite??Aside from Harden, do you know how many other players this year have a TS% above .600 with a useage of 29% or higher?LeBron James and… that’s it.(Carmelo is just shy of the TS% threshold and Durant is just shy of the usage threshold).

      Hell, there have only been 21 players seasons like that, EVER.

      If Harden had maintained a .660 TS% while increasing his usage to 29%, he’d have blown the previous record out of the water by 25 points.Does ANYONE seriously think THCJ or anyone else was seriously suggesting he’d do that?Have the best scoring season OF ALL TIME, in his first year as the #1 option on his team?

      Kevin Martin may be able to fill a role as a good high-efficiency scorer off the bench for a team stacked with other great players, but he is not fit to sniff James Harden’s jock strap, and anyone suggesting they are basically interchangeable or saying that Harden is not elite… needs to take a nap.

      Alright, he’s solidly better than Kevin Martin in Sacto (though Martin’s best years- .618 with a 26.2 usage and .601/27.4 with lower turnover numbers are certainly in the ballpark scoring-wise) as he’s a much better playmaker. My point was that at .660 with 29% usage he’s a no-brainer top five player and at least in the discussion for top player regardless of the fact that he’s a crappy defender. At .606 and a crappy defender, he’s not in the same class as LBJ or Chris Paul while if he had kept last year’s efficiency at his usage he would have been. Still really, really good but that drop in efficiency isn’t insignificant- just because he’s still really efficient doesn’t mean his efficiency numbers haven’t taken a solid hit with increased usage and that was what the argument was about in the first place.

    41. flossy

      Juany8: James Harden is an awesome offensive player, I’d put him as the 6th best pure offensive player this season (After Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul, Kobe, and Melo) and he certainly has room to improve in non pick and roll portions of his game. I happen to think the Westbrook is just as good a player overall as Harden though, so we’ll have to agree to disagree on that. Harden is just a total liability on defense, and while Westbrook isn’t as consistent as you’d like, he also has stretches where he is dominant on that end.

      In my hypothetical, we’re talking Chris Paul + Harden vs. Westbrook + Kevin Martin.

      I’ll take the former 11 times out of 10. Paul is better than Westbrook and Harden is better than Martin. With a little foresight they could have pretty easily had that combo. I’m sure NO would have fallen over themselves to land Westbrook in return for a player they couldn’t keep anyway.

    42. Juany8

      flossy: In my hypothetical, we’re talking Chris Paul + Harden vs. Westbrook + Kevin Martin.

      I’ll take the former 11 times out of 10.Paul is better than Westbrook and Harden is better than Martin.With a little foresight they could have pretty easily had that combo.I’m sure NO would have fallen over themselves to land Westbrook in return for a player they couldn’t keep anyway.

      Fair enough, Paul and Harden is certainly tough to argue against lol. Don’t think OKC would improve that much trading Westbrook for Paul though, this is going to be the second year in a row that OKC has the league’s best offense. Teams don’t have trades that big for a possible small bump from performance, especially not when Westbrook is a health god and Chris Paul is questionable going forward. Keep in mind that Westbrook did an excellent job of guarding Wade last year in the finals, that’s still their likely Finals opponent for the next few years.

    43. flossy

      nicos: My point was that at .660 with 29% usage he’s a no-brainer top five player and at least in the discussion for top player regardless of the fact that he’s a crappy defender.At .606 and a crappy defender, he’s not in the same class as LBJ or Chris Paul while if he had kept last year’s efficiency at his usage he would have been.

      .660 TS% on 29% usage makes him a top 5 player of all time. Nobody has ever come within 2% points of doing that. His current efficiency/usage combo still qualifies him as elite in today’s league, and you can’t say otherwise just because he hasn’t been able to maintain an efficiency level that is literally unheard-of at such a high usage.

      Is he in the same class as LBJ or Chris Paul? No, and neither is anyone else. But in a league where scoring at league-average efficiency on a usage of around 30% while being a mediocre passer and bad defender (a.k.a. Carmelo Anthony, until this season) is enough to result is multiple All-Star selections, a huge worldwide fan base and consensus elite status, there is no way that Harden’s combo of elite efficiency/high usage, great passing and bad defense doesn’t qualify. Would I trade 28 year-old Melo for 23 year-old Harden? No. Would I trade 23 year-old Melo for 23 year-old Harden? In a heartbeat.

    44. Juany8

      flossy: .660 TS% on 29% usage makes him a top 5 player of all time.Nobody has ever come within 2% points of doing that.His current efficiency/usage combo still qualifies him as elite in today’s league, and you can’t say otherwise just because he hasn’t been able to maintain an efficiency level that is literally unheard-of at such a high usage.

      Is he in the same class as LBJ or Chris Paul?No, and neither is anyone else.But in a league where scoring at league-average efficiency on a usage of around 30% while being a mediocre passer and bad defender (a.k.a. Carmelo Anthony, until this season) is enough to result is multiple All-Star selections, a huge worldwide fan base and consensus elite status, there is no way that Harden’s combo of elite efficiency/high usage, great passing and bad defense doesn’t qualify.Would I trade 28 year-old Melo for 23 year-old Harden?No.Would I trade 23 year-old Melo for 23 year-old Harden?In a heartbeat.

      Yea Harden was always worth the contract, I actually think he’ll finish the season a little lower than he is now, but the simple truth is that anyone who can maintain his level of usage at a reasonable efficiency is a star in the NBA. I am worried about the diversity of his offensive game, I think a team that’s excellent at trapping the pick and roll is going to seriously hurt Harden in a series, but the Rockets aren’t supposed to be realistic contenders at this stage. If the team gets another player that’s capable of drawing similar offensive attention, hopefully in a way that doesn’t require the pick and roll to be effective, they’re going to have a scary offense. Harden is even scarier when the defense can’t focus in on him entirely, he’s incredibly smart about being in the right place at the right time.

    45. nicos

      flossy: .660 TS% on 29% usage makes him a top 5 player of all time.Nobody has ever come within 2% points of doing that.His current efficiency/usage combo still qualifies him as elite in today’s league, and you can’t say otherwise just because he hasn’t been able to maintain an efficiency level that is literally unheard-of at such a high usage.

      Is he in the same class as LBJ or Chris Paul?No, and neither is anyone else.But in a league where scoring at league-average efficiency on a usage of around 30% while being a mediocre passer and bad defender (a.k.a. Carmelo Anthony, until this season) is enough to result is multiple All-Star selections, a huge worldwide fan base and consensus elite status, there is no way that Harden’s combo of elite efficiency/high usage, great passing and bad defense doesn’t qualify.Would I trade 28 year-old Melo for 23 year-old Harden?No.Would I trade 23 year-old Melo for 23 year-old Harden?In a heartbeat.

      Again, my argument isn’t whether or not Harden is a great player- he is- it’s that you can’t look at .660 dropping to .606 (his TS% went up .03 last night) and argue that increased usage hasn’t had an effect on his efficiency. You said it- at .660 he’s one of the greatest of all-time- at .606 he’s one of the best this year. Those are two different worlds. The argument being made was that there was no reason to believe that a significant increase in usage would have any impact on his efficiency this year to last. You can’t look at .660 and .606 and say “see, his efficiency hasn’t dropped off” just because .606 is still really good.

    46. ruruland

      I don’t have a problem with Owen saying he’d have liked to have seen the Knicks trade for Harden if for no other reason than his age. It’s amazing how much his game has improved since I watched him at asu. And there’s no doubt now that he’s a premier player.

      My issue is that, predictably, the first real bad game of the season for Melo and Owen shows up to talk about Harden. Melos having a great season, wouldn’t you think a Knicks fan would be able appreciate that?

      Second, this was primarily a debate about usage vs efficiency no matter how much DRed, Owen and Jowles want to lie. It was also about Hardens ability to beat premier defenders. He’s proven that he can. Not all players do. To pretend that there’s no difference going up against the teams best wing defender and its second or third is to assume that there are no good defenders in the league, or that good defenders have no impact.

      What people like Jowles, Owen, DRed won’t do is analyze or look deeper into the reasons for Hardens success in relation to other players across the league, historically.
      One thing to look at with Harden is his incredible ft rate. I haven’t been able to find a wing or guard at his usage with a ft rate as high.

      Much of that needs to be credited to his great acceleration, downhill attacking and change of direction in pnr and transition. However, some of that is Hardens semi- flopping/foul drawing technique. I personally don’t believe he actually gets fouled more than any other star going to the basket — possibly less– and I think he gets the most touch fouls I’ve ever seen.

      What’s interesting about this is that over time, these tactics become pretty- well known across the league, so much so that the coaches will empashize it to the officiating crew prior to the game and if he gets calls,will harp on them in the game. I think the more officials hear that stuff, the less likely they become to make those calls.

      Cont…..

    47. Juany8

      nicos: Again, my argument isn’t whether or not Harden is a great player- he is- it’s that you can’t look at .660 dropping to .606 (his TS% went up .03 last night) and argue that increased usage hasn’t had an effect on his efficiency.You said it- at .660 he’s one of the greatest of all-time- at .606 he’s one of the best this year.Those are two different worlds.The argument being made was that there was no reason to believe that a significant increase in usage would have any impact on his efficiency this year to last.You can’t look at .660 and .606 and say “see, his efficiency hasn’t dropped off” just because .606 is still really good.

      To be fair nicos, I don’t think flossy is arguing that. In fact I think you’re both pretty much arguing the same thing and getting a bit caught up in semantics. We all agree that Harden is a fantastic player, and you both seem to understand that there was no way he would keep up his efficiency at a vastly higher usage. His efficiency is still excellent this year

    48. Juany8

      The fact that Harden relies so much on his little flops (which I hate watching no matter how much it benefits the Rockets) is a little scary for me, I worry that he won’t be able to be as effective if he’s not getting those calls. Very interested to watch him in the playoffs this year, one star offenses have generally been shut down pretty effectively the last few years, and Harden is perhaps the least versatile of all the offensive stars in the league.

    49. flossy

      nicos: Again, my argument isn’t whether or not Harden is a great player- he is- it’s that you can’t look at .660 dropping to .606 (his TS% went up .03 last night) and argue that increased usage hasn’t had an effect on his efficiency.You said it- at .660 he’s one of the greatest of all-time- at .606 he’s one of the best this year.Those are two different worlds.The argument being made was that there was no reason to believe that a significant increase in usage would have any impact on his efficiency this year to last.You can’t look at .660 and .606 and say “see, his efficiency hasn’t dropped off” just because .606 is still really good.

      I guess it depends on if you’re following the letter or the spirit of the original assertion.

      I took the arguments about Harden’s efficiency to mean “James Harden’s outrageous scoring efficiency at a moderate shooting volume suggests he could change his role and increase his usage a lot while remaining a very efficient scorer,” which I think he has more than proven to be true.

      Apparently other people took the argument to mean “James Harden’s outrageous scoring efficiency will not decrease whatsoever regardless of his role, usage rate, or the composition of his team, to the point that he will have literally the best scoring season in the history of the National Basketball Association simply by choosing to shoot at a very high volume.”

      I won’t speak for THCJ, but I don’t think even the most dogmatic and inflexible Berri kool-aid drinker would cop to making the latter claim, which is like a parody of a straw man argument.

      Saying “well his TS% dropped six points from .660 to .606 when he increased his usage to 29% so there!” is like saying my Lamborghini can average 250 mph on a 5 mile course but only 200 mph on a 10 mile course. Who cares?? It’s still an unfuckingbelievably fast car.

    50. ruruland

      I think players like Kevin Martin and Danilo Gallinari have historically used similar foul-drawing techniques that worked for a few years and allowed them to have pretty incredible ft rate numbers.

      But the league caught on to both of them over time

      http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kevin%20Martin

      http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Danilo%20Gallinari

      I’m very skeptical that Harden will be able to sustain his foul rate for more than a year or two. At some point, he’ll need to develop a much more diverse offensive game and become more of a shot maker or risk significant reduced efficiency.

      There is much value in offensive versatility from your highest usage players, as Harden will no doubt find out in the playoffs as a very one- dimensional scorer.

    51. DRed

      Dude, he’s massively increased his usage and maintained an elite level of efficiency. We won that argument.

    52. DRed

      DRed:
      Dude, he’s massively increased his usage and maintained an elite level of efficiency.We won that argument.

      At least so far. There’s plenty of basketball left.

    53. flossy

      ruruland:
      I think players like Kevin Martin and Danilo Gallinari have historically used similar foul-drawing techniques that worked for a few years and allowed them to have pretty incredible ft rate numbers.

      But the league caught on to both of them over time

      http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kevin%20Martin

      http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Danilo%20Gallinari

      I’m very skeptical that Harden will be able to sustain his foul rate for more than a year or two. At some point, he’ll need to develop a much more diverse offensive game and become more of a shot maker or risk significant reduced efficiency.

      There is much value in offensive versatility from your highest usage players, as Harden will no doubt find out in the playoffs as a very one- dimensional scorer.

      There are also players like Dwyane Wade, who live at the foul line season after season.

    54. ruruland

      flossy: There are also players like Dwyane Wade, who live at the foul line season after season.

      Wade plays into much more contact and draws body fouls. He attempts to finish, not draw touch fouls to his arms.

    55. DRed

      “Melos having a great season, wouldn’t you think a Knicks fan would be able appreciate that?”

      What would you know about being a Knicks fan, ruru? If we traded Carmelo tomorrow, who would you root for?

    56. Robtachi

      DRed:
      “Melos having a great season, wouldn’t you think a Knicks fan would be able appreciate that?”

      What would you know about being a Knicks fan, ruru? If we traded Carmelo tomorrow, who would you root for?

      Great question, except there’s no reason that it should invalidate the question he asked, either.

    57. ruruland

      Robtachi: Great question, except there’s no reason that it should invalidate the question he asked, either.

      Invalidate in what sense? Do you think ’90s Knicks fan gathered around the water cooler to talk about how they wished Olajuwon was on the Knicks over Ewing when Ewing was having great seasons?

      This is all Owens wanted to talk about since I’ve been here.

    58. ruruland

      DRed:
      “Melos having a great season, wouldn’t you think a Knicks fan would be able appreciate that?”

      What would you know about being a Knicks fan, ruru? If we traded Carmelo tomorrow, who would you root for?

      I still have fan loyalties to all the teams I followed closely, I’m not strictly a laundry worshiper. That said, I could never consider myself a fan of the Nuggets if I perpetually lamented having to watch the players on the actual roster in lieu of some hypothetical dream reality.

    59. jon abbey

      having Olajuwon would have certainly been a lot happier, as someone who lived through that era. Harden is no Hakeem, though.

    60. nicos

      flossy: I guess it depends on if you’re following the letter or the spirit of the original assertion.
      I took the arguments about Harden’s efficiency to mean “James Harden’s outrageous scoring efficiency at a moderate shooting volume suggests he could change his role and increase his usage a lot while remaining a very efficient scorer,” which I think he has more than proven to be true.

      Agreed, (and I was probably trolling a bit and for that I apologize) but on the other side I don’t think anyone was suggesting that Harden was going to drop down to a TS% of .550 either. I expected him to be somewhere around .580-90 and he’s been better than that thus far. We’ll see where he winds up- even .580 at that usage is really valuable.

    61. DRed

      Owen: Frank – I only caught the last eight minutes last night but Melo was spectacular. That’s the best game he has had as a Knick and I am incredibly impressed by his overall line, both for the game and for the season to date. If this is the way he is going to play, then we were right to acquire him

      That’s from last month. Sounds like the kind of thing a Knicks fan would say. Owen was posting for years here-long before ruru showed up. He’s barely even here anymore and ruru takes shots at him constantly because he’s had the temerity to insult his precious (and problably because he’s not here, and so ruru gets to feel like he won) and it’s getting tedious.

    62. BigBlueAL

      I never wished the Knicks had Olajuwon over Ewing, I wished the Knicks had Michael Jordan instead lol.

    63. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      having Olajuwon would have certainly been a lot happier, as someone who lived through that era. Harden is no Hakeem, though.

      I know. Imperfect analogy for sure.

    64. DRed

      BigBlueAL:
      I never wished the Knicks had Olajuwon over Ewing, I wished the Knicks had Michael Jordan instead lol.

      What?? Instead of John Starks?

    65. ruruland

      DRed:
      Owen: Frank – I only caught the last eight minutes last night but Melo was spectacular. That’s the best game he has had as a Knick and I am incredibly impressed by his overall line, both for the game and for the season to date. If this is the way he is going to play, then we were right to acquire him

      That’s from last month. Sounds like the kind of thing a Knicks fan would say.Owen was posting for years here-long before ruru showed up.He’s barely even here anymore and ruru takes shots at him constantly because he’s had the temerity to insult his precious (and problably because he’s not here, and so ruru gets to feel like he won) and it’s getting tedious.

      Bullshit. Where were you last year?

    66. nicos

      DRed:
      “Melos having a great season, wouldn’t you think a Knicks fan would be able appreciate that?”

      What would you know about being a Knicks fan, ruru? If we traded Carmelo tomorrow, who would you root for?

      In defense of ruru- when he first came to the board it was all-Melo, all the time to a degree that I think drove everyone a little crazy but I think from the last half of last year and certainly this year, he’s paid as much attention to the entire team as anyone on the board and been right about stuff he’s predicted as much as anybody so those “you’re not a Knicks fan” posts seem a little mean-spirited these days.

    67. DRed

      nicos: In defense of ruru- when he first came to the board it was all-Melo, all the time to a degree that I think drove everyone a little crazy butI think from the last half of last year and certainly this year, he’s paid as much attention to the entire team as anyone on the board and been right about stuff he’s predicted as much as anybody so those “you’re not a Knicks fan” posts seem a little mean-spirited these days.

      I’ve never said ruru has no right to post here, and I never will. I didn’t even think Italianstallion should have been banned (although I understand why he was). He should just stop talking about being a Knicks fan. He’s a Carmelo fan who roots for the Knicks.

    68. d-mar

      Wow, the number of posts over the past few months regarding Harden is ridiculous. Enough already.

      I wonder if all they talk about is Carmelo Anthony on RocketBlogger.

    69. DRed

      Is there any appeal process for NBA suspensions? Something we could do to drag it out until we play a shitty team?

    70. flossy

      Sucks for the Knicks, but Melo had it coming. If he’d managed to keep his hissy fit on the court I’d be pissed at the suspension, but the whole fake tough guy, wait outside the locker room, wait outside the bus routine is ridiculous and unprofessional. I’m sure Garnett said something horrible, but if you don’t take the opportunity to act like a grown man, nobody will give you the benefit of the doubt.

    71. BigBlueAL

      DRed: What?? Instead of John Starks?

      I loved Starks but obviously I never looked at the Knicks under Riley and said to myself if only we had a better center, I always wished we had a better backcourt. One of the main reasons I instantly fell in love with Allan Houston (unlike most Knick fans) was because it was so refreshing to me to have a young shooting guard in his prime who could score a million different ways and wasnt a hot head.

      On to current matters, pretty stupid that Melo is suspended but then again he only has himself to blame.

    72. jon abbey

      Owen:
      Well, something we can all agree on. That is bullshit….

      no, it’s totally legit. Melo was an idiot to do that and should have been suspended.

    73. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      flossy:
      Sucks for the Knicks, but Melo had it coming.If he’d managed to keep his hissy fit on the court I’d be pissed at the suspension, but the whole fake tough guy, wait outside the locker room, wait outside the bus routine is ridiculous and unprofessional.I’m sure Garnett said something horrible, but if you don’t take the opportunity to act like a grown man, nobody will give you the benefit of the doubt.

      David Stern on Knickerblogger, everybody! Welcome, David!

      (If MMA is legal, so should Carmelo making menacing gestures toward a guy who said that about his wife. I’m not a chivalric dude, but Garnett is a habitual line-stepper.)

    74. thenamestsam

      Tough one for the Knicks but the league had to suspend him. Going after a player on another team and waiting for him outside of his team bus is just something the league can’t have. If nobody gets video, maybe Melo escapes a suspension, but with all the furor about it and the video being out there the league had to send a message. I thought it was obvious this was coming.

    75. jon abbey

      thenamestsam:
      Tough one for the Knicks but the league had to suspend him. Going after a player on another team and waiting for him outside of his team bus is just something the league can’t have. If nobody gets video, maybe Melo escapes a suspension, but with all the furor about it and the video being out there the league had to send a message. I thought it was obvious this was coming.

      yep, exactly.

    76. Owen

      I agree he was an idiot for doing it. But wanting to chat should not be a suspendable offense.

      That said, I can’t bring myself to watch the video.

      jon abbey: no, it’s totally legit. Melo was an idiot to do that and should have been suspended.

    77. thenamestsam

      Owen:
      I agree he was an idiot for doing it. But wanting to chat should not be a suspendable offense.

      That said, I can’t bring myself to watch the video.

      The man may have said he wanted to chat, and that may very well have been all that it was, but if he wanted to chat he should have gotten KG’s cell phone #. The police and security that were swarming around him definitely were worried that it might turn into something more than that, and it’s just not a precedent the NBA can allow. As Stu Jackson’s statement said “There are no circumstances in which it is acceptable for a player to confront an opponent after the game”. Simple as that. Maybe it just would have been a chat this time, but if you start allowing this to be a thing that happens it’s inevitably going to be more than a chat eventually.

    78. Kurt

      THCJ: I don’t normally agree with you, but I LOVE that idea!!!

      416139″>The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Sign Oakley to a 10-day before the next Celts game. Dolan can absorb the six-figure fine handed down for Oak jabbing Garnett in the mouth with his forearm.

    79. d-mar

      No argument about what the NBA did, but it still has to be said that KG is one of the bigger a-holes ever to step on a basketball court. I guess we’re supposed to celebrate his ability to “get under other player’s skin” and take Melo out of his game, but talking about another guy’s wife? That’s just lame, as lame as calling Villanueva a cancer patient last year.

      I think we should send James White out there next game to “accidentally” clock KG in the head while he’s setting one of his many illegal screens.

    80. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey:
      why do you never ever talk about Harden’s defense, or lack thereof?

      Because I can’t quantify it, and you sure as hell haven’t seen enough of it to make any substantial claim about it. Even if Synergy says that he’s not very good, I don’t really care: Synergy attributes something like 30-35% of defensive plays to team defense, a figure conveniently disregarded by the posters on this board.

      Defense – Plays
      How we select the player – Synergy tracks the initial on ball defender for many playtypes. For example, an offensive player is in Isolation and blows by his defender (player A) and gets to the rim. A help defender (player B) rotates over to try and contest the shot. We attribute the defensive play to Player A, as he was the person was initially beaten on the play.
      What happened to the other play types? – We do not attach an individual defender on offensive rebounds, cuts or transition plays as these are team defense concepts and fault/credit usually cannot be attributed to one person.

      This is supposed to be scientific?

    81. Kurt

      Plus a million! Speaking of line stepping, KG denied it but everyone knows about him making fun of Villineuava’s cancer.

      David Stern on Knickerblogger, everybody! Welcome, David!

      (If MMA is legal, so should Carmelo making menacing gestures toward a guy who said that about his wife. I’m not a chivalric dude, but Garnett is a habitual line-stepper.)

    82. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Also, I like how Juany8 is all about the T-wolves being mediocre this year as if Kevin Love and Rubio haven’t been injured, Love didn’t return too early from his injury, and now they’re going to play another 8-10 weeks without him.

      You know, Kevin Love: maybe the best PF in the league short of LeBron James. That guy.

    83. nicos

      thenamestsam:
      Tough one for the Knicks but the league had to suspend him. Going after a player on another team and waiting for him outside of his team bus is just something the league can’t have. If nobody gets video, maybe Melo escapes a suspension, but with all the furor about it and the video being out there the league had to send a message. I thought it was obvious this was coming.

      Did he ever really go after him though? He never came close to throwing a punch during the game and I’m sorry, standing by the bus with 8 cops right there isn’t a particularly provocative gesture- there’s no way a fight going to occur in that situation. If he’d chased after him in the tunnel after the game, fine- suspend him but this was really nothing. It’s only one game so not the biggest deal in the world though there’s always the chance that the Knicks might need an extra win against Indiana in a tie-breaker.

    84. Kurt

      THCJ’s comment about David Stern expresses everything i can’t stand about both Stern and the Celtics.

      From the player dress codes to screwing the Suns in ’07 to the Spurs fines and many other examples, Stern cares more about expressing his authority and the perceptions of a certain upper crust class of people than what is best for the players and the game. Going after trash talking in certain cases would be too subtle. Better to go after mild complaining against refs, the (mostly white) authority figures than real line crossing on the part of KG.

      Also for the Celtics: what pisses me off about KG and Pierce is that they flop and use every dirty move in the book but make it subtle enough that they know how to get away with it.

      Speaking of flopping, if Stern’s new anti-flopping rule were really enforced properly, Pierce would be LOSING money from playing the season…

    85. Kurt

      So in this case, even the mere suggestion that an (African American) athlete could start a fight with another after the game was more important than the reality of what happened and what Melo was actually trying to do.

      Also, in response to thenamestream, Jalen Rose reported on a Simmons podcast that Melo DID actually call up KG and spoke with him.

    86. jon abbey

      how did race get in there? I hate Stern as much as anyone, but if Kevin Love had done the exact same thing, he would have been suspended too.

    87. Kurt

      What I meant is that in the NBA, more than even NFL, African Americans are perceived as threatening. When any NBA player does anything to “confirm” this perception, all hell breaks loose. Hence the overreaction to Melo wanting to speak with KG. Hence the overreaction to even the hints of fighting when in NHL fighting is part of the draw.

      Please compare the “Malace in the Palace” to these:
      http://www.brobible.com/life/article/the-five-best-hockey-player-vs-fan-fights-on-YouTube

    88. BigBlueAL

      Guys check the video I posted from TMZ, KG and Melo were yelling and screaming at each other and had to be separated, it wasnt just Melo standing their by himself with people telling him to leave.

      Although judging from the footage from that video KG is seen yelling and screaming at Melo more so than vice versa although whoever was filming seemed to be more focused on KG than Melo.

    89. yellowboy90

      To apeal or not yo apeal? That is the question. Apeal and maybe get go play Thurs. and Fri and miss Sunday against the hornets

    90. flossy

      Yeah only a racist could think that millionaire professional athletes should refrain from acting like hormonal 13 year-olds trying to beat each other up in the parking lot after school. Damn you, Stern!

    91. jon abbey

      I don’t think you can appeal in the NBA like you can in MLB and basically decide when you’re suspended, am I wrong?

    92. jon abbey

      Kurt:
      What I meant is that in the NBA, more than even NFL, African Americans are perceived as threatening. When any NBA player does anything to “confirm” this perception, all hell breaks loose. Hence the overreaction to Melo wanting to speak with KG. Hence the overreaction to even the hints of fighting when in NHL fighting is part of the draw.

      Please compare the “Malace in the Palace” to these:
      http://www.brobible.com/life/article/the-five-best-hockey-player-vs-fan-fights-on-YouTube

      you can’t really compare sports, that’s confusing things even more. again, Stern is an asshole who has overstayed his welcome by decades (my Stern Must Go blogspot is still up, although very dormant), but bringing in race to this just confuses things unnecessarily IMO.

    93. Knicks4Eva

      They should have suspended KG as well, and maybe fined Doc.
      It’s obvious (look at Rondo, KG, Pierce and the behavior of the whole team) that he promotes this kind of crap.

    94. BigBlueAL

      Have you guys read about the team doctors telling Woodson to cut down on Amare’s minutes because he felt sore the day after playing 28 mins vs the Celtics?? Woodson admitted to it today and said he has to keep him under 20 mins. Also has said previously that Amare most likely wont play the 2nd of a back-to-back so I assume no Amare on Friday.

    95. DRed

      jon abbey: you can’t really compare sports, that’s confusing things even more. again, Stern is an asshole who has overstayed his welcome by decades (my Stern Must Go blogspot is still up, although very dormant), but bringing in race to this just confuses things unnecessarily IMO.

      Yeah, there are definitely racial issues that come up when you talk about perception of NBA players, but this is a situation when I think it’s irrelevant. Stern would have suspended anyone who did what Melo did.

    96. Z-man

      Knicks4Eva:
      They should have suspended KG as well, and maybe fined Doc.
      It’s obvious (look at Rondo, KG, Pierce and the behavior of the whole team) that he promotes this kind of crap.

      Agreed, they gave double techs during the game and should have given double suspensions. No question, though, Melo deserved it. Can’t go after guys after a game, no matter what they said about your momma, your wife, your momma’s wife, etc.

      I’m not to upset about the suspension, though. Melo needs some rest for that knee and two grueling back-to-back games might have been too much. I also think that it’s better that this happened now as opposed to during a critical playoff game. Garnett should have kept that bullet in the chamber.

    97. Z-man

      BigBlueAL:
      Have you guys read about the team doctors telling Woodson to cut down on Amare’s minutes because he felt sore the day after playing 28 mins vs the Celtics??Woodson admitted to it today and said he has to keep him under 20 mins.Also has said previously that Amare most likely wont play the 2nd of a back-to-back so I assume no Amare on Friday.

      I’ve said before that Amare is reminding me more and more of Allan Houston. Hopefully that is not the case, but it sure sounds familiar.

    98. massive

      I just don’t understand why the NBA enables Kevin Garnett’s trash-talking. He takes it too far one too many times, and he’s the dirtiest player in the entire league. Rajon Rondo is the fakest tough guy in the entire league, Jason Terry is another D-Bag, and Paul Pierce is the biggest no-class act I have ever seen. And people wonder why an all-class guy like Ray Allen left that team high and dry? I really cannot stand that team. I think KG needs to be secretly recorded one game.

    99. jon abbey

      Wade is the dirtiest player in the league, I don’t think it’s really even close at this point.

    100. flossy

      Z-man: I’ve said before that Amare is reminding me more and more of Allan Houston. Hopefully that is not the case, but it sure sounds familiar.

      Hopefully they’re just trying to avoid the whole Kevin Love/come back too soon and get re-injured scenario.

    101. DRed

      massive:
      I just don’t understand why the NBA enables Kevin Garnett’s trash-talking. He takes it too far one too many times, and he’s the dirtiest player in the entire league. Rajon Rondo is the fakest tough guy in the entire league, Jason Terry is another D-Bag, and Paul Pierce is the biggest no-class act I have ever seen. And people wonder why an all-class guy like Ray Allen left that team high and dry? I really cannot stand that team. I think KG needs to be secretly recorded one game.

      Trash talk is mighty hard to regulate. What do you do? Make a rule that nobody can say mean things about another players wife? And how do you know what they’re actually saying on the court? But yes, KG is a punk. He talks a lot to guys he knows won’t do anything. It’s not like he’s out there talking shit about Ron Artest’s mother.

    102. DRed

      BigBlueAL: Charlie War

      Everyone on those teams save Charles Smith was thought of as a dirty player. I think my favorite moment was greg anthony coming off the bench (while wearing one of the ugliest shirts I’ve ever seen) to cheap shot Kevin Johnson in Phoenix.

    103. Owen

      Does KG talk like that off the court? My sense is that he is like a rabid dog on the court but totally different in the real world.

      Although that seems unlikely….

    104. massive

      jon abbey:
      Wade is the dirtiest player in the league, I don’t think it’s really even close at this point.

      Wade doesn’t throw 3-5 elbows every time he’s battling for post position, nor does he habitually throw elbows at players after the whistle. KG is king. Wade is probably #2 though.

    105. massive

      DRed: Trash talk is mighty hard to regulate.What do you do?Make a rule that nobody can say mean things about another players wife?And how do you know what they’re actually saying on the court?But yes, KG is a punk.He talks a lot to guys he knows won’t do anything.It’s not like he’s out there talking shit about Ron Artest’s mother.

      I just think things need to be taken into context with regards to fines and suspensions. Melo has pulled this “wait around for a player” stunt once in his career, and it just so happened to be against KG? It’s like the kid who gets beat up at almost every playground he goes to. Is it just the mean children in the school yard? Or is there something wrong with the kid who keeps getting beat up? When you keep punishing the children who beat him up, it enables the child’s behavior as if he did nothing wrong. Both parties are at fault here, so there should be punishment both ways or no punishment at all.

    106. flossy

      massive: I just think things need to be taken into context with regards to fines and suspensions. Melo has pulled this “wait around for a player” stunt once in his career, and it just so happened to be against KG? It’s like the kid who gets beat up at almost every playground he goes to. Is it just the mean children in the school yard? Or is there something wrong with the kid who keeps getting beat up? When you keep punishing the children who beat him up, it enables the child’s behavior as if he did nothing wrong. Both parties are at fault here, so there should be punishment both ways or no punishment at all.

      Except one player left his beef on the court and one didn’t. You can hate KG all you want, think he’s dirty, think he’s a bad person for saying mean things, but he’s not the one who felt it necessary to stalk around outside the other team’s locker room after and bus after the game wanting to “talk” and being held back by security. Of course that’s going to warrant a suspension. Do you really think the league wants to set a precedent where on-court spats get resolved by players literally taking it outside like drunks at a bar? Give me a break.

      The difference between KG’s unsportsmanlike conduct (for which he got T’d up, as he should have) and Melo’s pretty lame attempt at schoolyard thuggery is clear as night as day. KG deserves his bad rep and Melo deserves a night off to think about how to act like a grown ass man. At least this time he didn’t throw one punch and run away, so I guess that’s progress…

      On a more humorous note, just saw this on twitter, pretty funny:

      https://twitter.com/jeskeets/status/289158399260762114

    107. DRed

      Listening to the espn discuss the Lakers struggling because they aren’t communicating on the defense end is pretty aggravating. You’d think one of these idiots would be smart enough to figure out that the team has 2 good basketball players right now and are on the road against one of the best teams in the game.

      ha. The ref is talking to pop and d’antoni about how he’s stalling for commercial time.

    108. jon abbey

      crazy night in the NBA, CLE without Varejao crushing ATL, NO dominating HOU in the 4th to come from behind and win going away, MIL on the verge of winning in CHI.

    109. nicos

      What annoys me most about the whole Garnett thing is how often he’s praised for “playing the right way.” His mouth is bad enough- the Villaneuva thing was completely inexcusable- there’s a difference between trying to gain a competitive advantage and being a complete asshole. What’s worse is he compounds it by being as chippy a player as there is in the league. The constant little “inadvertent” elbows, the shoves in back of jumping players- that’s not playing the right way, not even close. People excuse it by saying he’s old school- old school to me is Oakley or Mahorn who’d lay an obvious hard foul on you rather than a sneaky cheap shot. And, unlike Garnett, if you didn’t like it and stepped to them they’d knock you on your ass- Garnett isn’t fighting anybody. By all accounts (at least those I’ve read) he’s a really good guy off of the court. He’s apparently helped a lot of ex-teammates out etc…, and god knows he’s played hard his entire career (though people do forget he wasn’t exactly a go-to guy late in games in Minnesota- lots of weak fade aways in big spots) but if I had a kid he’s not a guy I’d want him to emulate.

    110. massive

      @117,

      You have a right to your opinion, but KG needs to stop crossing the line. He can say and do whatever he wants because he’s KG. You don’t remember him tripping Toney Douglas in Game 1? How about all of the elbows he throws on court? How about calling CV a cancer patient and all he had to do was say “I didn’t say that,” have his coach vouch for him, and have nobody discipline him for it? My point is that trouble seems to follow KG a lot more than it follows anybody he’s had a run in with. He deserves more than a bad rep. He deserves to be disciplined.

    111. Kurt

      Jon, you make a good point that Kevin Love might be punished similarly. I was partially making a point about the larger media coverage and reaction to different types of incidents and that, even if unintentional, the reaction to such altercations is at least tinged by race. My point putting both Stern’s and the media reaction in that larger context, though I can understand how you’d disagree about this particular case.

      Massive: I couldn’t agree more about Ray Allen. I was also thinking earlier how it’s great he left the Heat because, other than Doc Rivers (who has no choice but to cover for his player), Allen was the only classy guy on the Celtics.

      About Wade, I don’t think he flops anywhere as much as Pierce, right?

      About KG being “nice” off the court: notice that all the legends are about him helping teammates and ex-teammates. Is there any record of him being friends with any non-teammates off the court?

      Lots of “old school” people love KG’s competitiveness, but I think you can be a true competitor without being an asshole or a “fake punk,” like Oakley put it. Notice also the incident with Ray Allen and KG after he switched to Miami. KG just ignores him and acts like Allen is dead to him despite Allen’s attempt to be classy.

      No one would doubt CP3′s will to win and competitiveness on the court, and he seeks every competitive advantage possible, but he’s never been accused of crossing lines. Also, he hosts friends from other teams when they come into his town without it diminishing his competitive fire when they play each other. As much as I find Kobe annoying you could never doubt his will to win while keeping his trash talking within accepted bounds.

    112. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Kurt: Jon, you make a good point that Kevin Love might be punished similarly. I was partially making a point about the larger media coverage and reaction to different types of incidents and that, even if unintentional, the reaction to such altercations is at least tinged by race. My point putting both Stern’s and the media reaction in that larger context, though I can understand how you’d disagree about this particular case.

      White people get arrested under NYC’s stop-and-frisk laws, but that doesn’t mean the laws are not racist.

    113. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: White people get arrested under NYC’s stop-and-frisk laws, but that doesn’t mean the laws are not racist.

      I agree with this, but again, unnecessarily muddling this incident IMO.

      Ray Allen supposedly never got along with Rondo especially as Rondo became a star, I think that had a lot to do with why he left.

    114. Douglas

      Kurt: No one would doubt CP3?s will to win and competitiveness on the court, and he seeks every competitive advantage possible, but he’s never been accused of crossing lines.

      CP3 did punch a guy in the balls while at Wake Forest.

    115. Hubert Davis

      You know, KG didn’t exactly get straight on the bus. He was every bit a party to that altercation as Carmelo was. It’s idiotic that just one player is getting suspended. If there’s an altercation on the court the league never only suspends the instigator.

      Basically the league’s policy is: “our rules are unclear, but whoever the media decides to center around will be the focus of our punishment.”

    116. Kurt

      Hubie: Thanks for expressing my thoughts better than I could!

      Basically the league’s policy is: “our rules are unclear, but whoever the media decides to center around will be the focus of our punishment.”

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