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Wednesday, November 26, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Feb 01 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks beat woeful Pistons as Melo returns from injury (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:43:10 GMT)
    The timing of the tired and absolutely dreadful Detroit Pistons could not have been better for Mike D’Antoni Tuesday night. The Knicks, and especially their head coach, desperately needed a win.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 113, Pistons 86: Carmelo Anthony Returns to Struggling Knicks Offense Against Pistons (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 06:54:06 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony had a game-high 25 points in his first game back from an ankle injury, and the Knicks spread around the scoring in a victory against the Detroit Pistons at the Garden.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Pacers Down the Nets (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 06:54:06 GMT)
    Deron Williams scored 34 points for the Nets, who have lost two straight over all and nine in a row against the Pacers.

  • [New York Times] The N.B.A. Is Missing Its Shots in China (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:58:06 GMT)
    China loves basketball. But as American players — and the N.B.A. itself — have discovered, the country has its own rules.

  • [New York Times] Kobe Earns Rest After Lakers Pacify Bobcats (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:05:11 GMT)
    Kobe Bryant’s fast start afforded him the luxury of a late rest as the Los Angeles Lakers made light work of the free-falling Charlotte Bobcats with a 106-73 blowout home win on Tuesday.

  • [New York Times] Rush Leads Warriors Past Kings in Smart’s Return (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 06:28:09 GMT)
    Brandon Rush scored 15 of his 20 points in the fourth quarter to spark a late rally, and the Golden State Warriors spoiled former coach Keith Smart’s return with a 93-90 victory over the Sacramento Kings on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Lakers Dominate Bobcats in 106-73 Win (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 06:10:27 GMT)
    Kobe Bryant scored 24 points, Andrew Bynum added 20, and the Los Angeles Lakers beat slumping Charlotte 106-73 Tuesday night, extending their home record to 11-2 and sending the Bobcats to their ninth consecutive defeat and 19th of the season.

  • [New York Times] Mayo Leads Grizzlies Past Nuggets 100-97 in OT (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 04:34:08 GMT)
    O.J. Mayo scored 18 points, including a go-ahead 3-pointer with 35 seconds left in overtime, as the Memphis Grizzlies snapped a four-game losing streak with a 100-97 victory over the Denver Nuggets on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Anthony Returns, Knicks Rout Pistons to End Slide (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:22:37 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony scored 25 points in his return to the lineup, Landry Fields added 16 of his 18 in a flawless first half, and the New York Knicks snapped a three-game losing streak with a 113-86 victory over the Detroit Pistons on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] George Leads Pacers Past Nets 106-99 (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:13:31 GMT)
    Paul George scored a career-high 24 points to lead the Indiana Pacers in a 106-99 win over the New Jersey Nets on Tuesday night.

  • [New York Times] Celtics Survive Cavs’ Comeback 93-90 (Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:04:11 GMT)
    Paul Pierce scored 20 points, Ray Allen had 12 in the third quarter and the Boston Celtics avenged a disappointing loss to Cleveland two days earlier by barely holding off the Cavaliers 93-90 on Tuesday night.

  • 89 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Wednesday, Feb 01 2012)

    1. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Oh, no doubt. Believe you me, Knick fans complained just as much in the 1990s as they do now. It was just a matter of “how can this good team be better” as opposed to “can they maybe win half their games at least?”

    2. xduckshoex

      I don’t really understand their complaints; they lost two tight games, but won three tight games the week before, including two overtime wins.

      Though the Nuggets last 3 shots(before the Fernandez buzzer beater) were all blocked so it could be a legit complaint.

    3. cgreene

      @1 I watched the end of the Nuggs Grizz last night and were I a Nuggs fan I would have been pissed about the rotations too. Karl continued to run out a lineup that had both Andre Miller and Ty Lawson to close out the game. Miller of course hogged the ball and shots (besides Al Harrington who played well) but it seemed totally self defeating to have both those guys out there. Talk about canceling each other out. One gets the feeling Andre Miller is such a cancer that Karl feels forced to have him out there.

    4. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin)

      Miller is a double-edged sword. He plays well quite often, but yeah, he is now and has always been sure that he should be “the man” at the end of the game, no matter who else is on the team. I remember the Knicks home opener last year when Brandon Roy could get (and seemingly did get) an easy basket whenever he wanted down the stretch, but Miller wouldn’t give up the ball.

      The Grizzlies game was particularly bad, with the turnovers and the missed (bad) shots.

    5. KnickfaninNJ

      That’s quite a beard Wilson Chandler has in the picture from the China article. If we got him back we could have an all beard line up, Chandler, Chandler, Jeffries, Davis and Fields.

    6. Nick C.

      wow on the Afflalo commentary: “Afflalo was one of the best role players in the game last season and he’s currently lost with no idea what his role should be. The shots he is taking are indefensible. Fadeaways with 20 on the clock and contested turnaround jumpers over Rudy Gay? …. Furthermore Afflalo isn’t even looking to come off screens and get his midrange game going. Afflalo has lived off of quality shot opportunities where his teammates did a lot of the work. Now he’s simply trying to do too much off the dribble and he’s not even looking for teammates to help him out.” Just putting it out there.

    7. tastycakes

      Hell, if the Knicks were 14-7 and just lost a tough OT game to a good team on the road, this forum would STILL be buzzing with negativity.

      The only reason it’s been fading lately is that the Knicks are so terrible nobody wants to watch or talk about them.

      Hey, we blew out a team last night that’s even worse, start up the parade!!!!!!

      The Nuggets are awesome and fun and deep, and Denver fans should enjoy them. They are certainly not winning a championship as constructed, but could they go to the second round and play spoiler like the Grizz last year? You bet!

    8. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      George Karl is an idiot for not playing Faried more. That kid is a ridiculous mover in the paint. He’s got the Rodman sense of body positioning.

    9. Bruno Almeida

      Nick C.:
      wow on the Afflalo commentary: “Afflalo was one of the best role players in the game last season and he’s currently lost with no idea what his role should be. The shots he is taking are indefensible. Fadeaways with 20 on the clock and contested turnaround jumpers over Rudy Gay? …. Furthermore Afflalo isn’t even looking to come off screens and get his midrange game going. Afflalo has lived off of quality shot opportunities where his teammates did a lot of the work. Now he’s simply trying to do too much off the dribble and he’s not even looking for teammates to help him out.” Just putting it out there.

      it’s the old thing about how a player is very efficient on a limited role, yet struggles when forced to do too much.

      the Nuggets aren’t any closer to winning a title than the Knicks, imo, but the main thing they do have – flexibility.

      if they look at their roster and see that it’s not championship material, they have a huge number of decent assets to package on a trade, and still keep 6, 7 good rotation guys.

    10. max fisher-cohen

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      George Karl is an idiot for not playing Faried more. That kid is a ridiculous mover in the paint. He’s got the Rodman sense of body positioning.

      Yeah, I don’t really understand why he hasn’t gotten a chance. Mozgov and Koufos are not really rockstars. I fully expected him to be at minimum be the 2nd big off the bench and play 10-20 mpg.

    11. iserp

      Faried is a bit undersized to be considered a ‘big’. With Nene sliding to PF and Harrington coming off the bench, he has little time there. And at SF they have Gallo and are giving minutes to Brewer. And sometimes Karl is playing smaller lineups, giving less minutes to the ‘bigs’.

    12. Frank

      TDM: The hook’s been baited and the line is cast . . .

      Not going to get into a shouting match with THCJ over this – I’d also be interested in seeing what Faried can do. He might be an interesting guy to put on the floor in a small lineup with Nene playing center and Al Buckets at the 3. He’d make up for Nene’s subpar rebounding, and Harrington’s going to shoot every shot anyway so he can just concentrate on crashing the offensive glass.

      Re: Afflalo – I haven’t seen him too much this year, but just based on that comment it sounds like someone thinks he’s big-time now that he’s making 8M/year? TS is down to 52 this year – in fact all his #s (other than usage%) are down from last year, which is starting to look like a contract year-type season for him.

      Re: all the talk about Kenyon Martin – am I the only one who would much rather have JR Smith? Martin would fit well as Amare’s backup, but this team needs 3 point shooting and backcourt athleticism way more than it needs K-Mart IMO.

    13. Z

      Boy, Andy Rautins must be sitting at home these days watching Lin work his way into the rotation, thinking: “that bastard stole my life!”

    14. yoda4554

      Bruno Almeida:

      the Nuggets aren’t any closer to winning a title than the Knicks, imo, but the main thing they do have – flexibility.

      if they look at their roster and see that it’s not championship material, they have a huge number of decent assets to package on a trade, and still keep 6, 7 good rotation guys.

      I don’t know what to say to people sometimes.

      Denver Nuggets: 14-7 (expected 15-6), 2nd best record in the tougher conference (including best point differential), 5th in the league by SRS, 4th in Hollinger’s Power Rankings, 2nd best offense in the league and top-half defense.

      New York Knicks: 8-13 (expected 10-11), 10th best record in the easy conference, 22nd in the league by SRS, 20th in Hollinger’s Power Rankings, top-10 defense and bottom 10 offense.

      In what crazy world can anyone look at these two teams–one of whom is on pace to have home-court advantage through at least until the conference finals, the other of whom is not on pace to even make the playoffs–and say that Denver is no “closer to winning a title than the Knicks?”

    15. Gideon Zaga

      Seriously guys, what is your obsession with the Nuggets. I guess they are right that men find it harder letting things go. Or you vanngo be a Denver fan, as for Affalo, i see a little bit of Fields in him, he fed off Melo like Fields feeds off Melo now. The Nuggets arent going anywhere people, they are just a good regular season team, they are not built for the playoffs.

    16. Gideon Zaga

      Dude face it in a seven game series the Denver Nuggets will not beat the Lakers, OKC, Clippers, Memphis, Spurs, Blazers or even the wolves if they should make it.
      Give it a rest.

      yoda4554: I don’t know what to say to people sometimes.

      Denver Nuggets: 14-7 (expected 15-6), 2nd best record in the tougher conference (including best point differential), 5th in the league by SRS, 4th in Hollinger’s Power Rankings, 2nd best offense in the league and top-half defense.

      New York Knicks: 8-13 (expected 10-11), 10th best record in the easy conference, 22nd in the league by SRS, 20th in Hollinger’s Power Rankings, top-10 defense and bottom 10 offense.

      In what crazy world can anyone look at these two teams–one of whom is on pace to have home-court advantage through at least until the conference finals, the other of whom is not on pace to even make the playoffs–and say that Denver is no “closer to winning a title than the Knicks?”

    17. Bruno Almeida

      yoda4554: I don’t know what to say to people sometimes.

      Denver Nuggets: 14-7 (expected 15-6), 2nd best record in the tougher conference (including best point differential), 5th in the league by SRS, 4th in Hollinger’s Power Rankings, 2nd best offense in the league and top-half defense.

      New York Knicks: 8-13 (expected 10-11), 10th best record in the easy conference, 22nd in the league by SRS, 20th in Hollinger’s Power Rankings, top-10 defense and bottom 10 offense.

      In what crazy world can anyone look at these two teams–one of whom is on pace to have home-court advantage through at least until the conference finals, the other of whom is not on pace to even make the playoffs–and say that Denver is no “closer to winning a title than the Knicks?”

      I think the Heat and Bulls are a step ahead of everyone else, and I believe the Thunder and Clippers are ahead of the Nuggets too.

      that’s why I think they have no chance, I can’t see them beating the Thunder or the Clippers on a 7-game series, and I sure as hell can’t see them winning against the Heat or the Bulls.

      so yeah, obviously the Nuggets are much better than the Knicks, but in my opinion, still not good enough to win a title… they might be closer to doing it than the Knicks, but still highly unlikely.

    18. Ben R

      People make arguments against the Nuggets because they lack a “superstar”. The problem with the “superstar” argument is that it is not simply a superstar that wins championships but a top 3 player. Over the last 30 years only 5 teams have won that did not have Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Moses Malone, Duncan or Kobe.

      Of those 5 teams the 3 Pistons teams lacked a “superstar” iso scorer and the other two (Dallas last year, and the Celtics from a couple years ago) did have a superstar iso scorer. So from my accounts if you don’t have a top 3 player, which the Nuggets don’t have, never had, and have never had a chance to obtain, then going with the strong balanced team seems just as good as building with a 2nd tier “superstar”.

    19. max fisher-cohen

      Regarding the whole starless thing and guys creating their own shot… I don’t see the difference between Lawson driving to the basket and creating space for Gallo to get a shot off, and Carmelo doing the hippy-hippy shake to get a 20 footer. All you need is to be able to get quality shots. Not only that, the Nugs have a guy in Al Buckets who is happy to shoot and is pretty good at getting decent shots off isolations.

      Let’s revisit the criticisms that have been lobbied against Melo:

      1) He takes too many bad shots, resulting in him being average in terms of offensive efficiency
      2) He stops the ball
      3) He is not a great defensive player

      Now let’s look at the guys who were stars on the championship teams of the last decade:

      Kobe does fit the bill as a ball-stopper but is a very good defender and a higher efficiency scorer than Melo.

      Duncan was similar to Kobe in terms of efficiency but was a monster defensively. Ginobili is a super-efficient offensive player, a much better passer than Carmelo, and never stops the ball.

      LAL of the early 2000s won with Kobe (already covered) and Shaq. Shaq was highly efficient on offense and was a superstar defensively.

      Miami won with Wade scoring with high efficiency, rarely stopping the ball, and playing elite defense. The aging Shaq was still very efficient.

      Dallas won with Dirk, a much more efficient isolation player than Melo.

      Pierce, Garnett and Allen were all better than Carmelo’s best TS% in their championship year. Career-wise, Allen and Pierce are much more efficient than Melo, and Garnett makes up for his medium efficiency with elite defense.

      Basically, Gallinari has as much in common with these superstars as Melo does. Melo has the volume scoring, Gallinari has the efficiency. Neither will be top ten players unless they add a second elite skill.

    20. Gideon Zaga

      Dude you seriously did not just say that Kobe is much more efficient than Melo, are you kidding me? This is where I need the stat guys to give me some numbers on this. Plus Melo doesnt do a hippy skippy, the correct basketball term is jab step and he does it forward or side from triple threat stance.

      max fisher-cohen:
      Regarding the whole starless thing and guys creating their own shot…I don’t see the difference between Lawson driving to the basket and creating space for Gallo to get a shot off, and Carmelo doing the hippy-hippy shake to get a 20 footer. All you need is to be able to get quality shots. Not only that, the Nugs have a guy in Al Buckets who is happy to shoot and is pretty good at getting decent shots off isolations.

      Let’s revisit the criticisms that have been lobbied against Melo:

      1) He takes too many bad shots, resulting in him being average in terms of offensive efficiency
      2) He stops the ball
      3) He is not a great defensive player

      Now let’s look at the guys who were stars on the championship teams of the last decade:

      Kobe does fit the bill as a ball-stopper but is a very good defender and a higher efficiency scorer than Melo.

      Duncan was similar to Kobe in terms of efficiency but was a monster defensively. Ginobili is a super-efficient offensive player, a much better passer than Carmelo, and never stops the ball.

      LAL of the early 2000s won with Kobe (already covered) and Shaq. Shaq was highly efficient on offense and was a superstar defensively.

      Miami won with Wade scoring with high efficiency, rarely stopping the ball, and playing elite defense. The aging Shaq was still very efficient.

      Dallas won with Dirk, a much more efficient isolation player than Melo.

      Pierce, Garnett and Allen were all better than Carmelo’s best TS% in their championship year. Career-wise, Allen and Pierce are much more efficient than Melo, and Garnett makes up…

    21. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The obsession with the Nuggets is that they have 3 young players (Lawson, Gallo, and to a certain extent, Faried) that many Knicks fans, including myself, would rather have than Toney, Melo, and Amar’e. At their current salaries, I would make that trade straight-up in a heartbeat.

      Oh, and they didn’t give away ten years of first-round picks for shitty pieces. They have a good cap situation going forward (except the Harrington contract, which was a terrible move, despite his good play this season), and a budding star PG who is an RFA in 2013.

      Here’s the next four drafts:

      2012 first round draft pick to Houston
      New York’s own 2012 1st round pick to Houston (top 5 protected in 2012, top 5 protected in 2013, top 5 protected in 2014, and top 5 protected in the 2015 Draft). If Houston does not receive a 1st round pick from New York by the 2015 Draft, then New York will convey their own 2015 2nd round pick and 2016 2nd round pick to Houston. [Houston – New York – Sacramento, 2/18/2010]

      2012 second round draft pick to Phoenix
      New York’s own 2012 2nd round pick to Phoenix (top 55 protected in the 2012 Draft). If New York’s own 2012 2nd round pick is in the top 55 picks, then New York’s obligations to Phoenix shall be extinguished. [New York – Phoenix, 7/8/2010]

      2013 second round draft pick to Washington
      New York’s own 2013 2nd round pick to Washington. [Dallas – New York – Washington, 12/10/2011]

      2014 first round draft pick to Denver
      New York’s own first round draft pick to Denver in the “First Allowable Draft”. (The First Allowable draft shall be the draft that occurs two years following the year in which New York satisfies its existing obligation to convey their own 2012 protected first round draft pick to the Houston Rockets from the trade involving Jared Jeffries). [Denver – Minnesota – New York, 2/22/2011]

      2016 first round draft pick to Denver
      If New York is obligated to send its own first round pick in the First Allowable Draft to…

    22. Gideon Zaga

      So how hard will it be to stand in front of your mirror and declare yourself a Nuggets fan barring yourself from the Knicks, I did it to the Wizards and now they are not my problem anymore.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      The obsession with the Nuggets is that they have 3 young players (Lawson, Gallo, and to a certain extent, Faried) that many Knicks fans, including myself, would rather have than Toney, Melo, and Amar’e. At their current salaries, I would make that trade straight-up in a heartbeat.

      Oh, and they didn’t give away ten years of first-round picks for shitty pieces. They have a good cap situation going forward (except the Harrington contract, which was a terrible move, despite his good play this season), and a budding star PG who is an RFA in 2013.

      Here’s the next four drafts:

      2012 first round draft pick to Houston
      New York’s own 2012 1st round pick to Houston (top 5 protected in 2012, top 5 protected in 2013, top 5 protected in 2014, and top 5 protected in the 2015 Draft). If Houston does not receive a 1st round pick from New York by the 2015 Draft, then New York will convey their own 2015 2nd round pick and 2016 2nd round pick to Houston. [Houston – New York – Sacramento, 2/18/2010]

      2012 second round draft pick to Phoenix
      New York’s own 2012 2nd round pick to Phoenix (top 55 protected in the 2012 Draft). If New York’s own 2012 2nd round pick is in the top 55 picks, then New York’s obligations to Phoenix shall be extinguished. [New York – Phoenix, 7/8/2010]

      2013 second round draft pick to Washington
      New York’s own 2013 2nd round pick to Washington. [Dallas – New York – Washington, 12/10/2011]

      2014 first round draft pick to Denver
      New York’s own first round draft pick to Denver in the “First Allowable Draft”. (The First Allowable draft shall be the draft that occurs two years following the year in which New York satisfies its existing obligation…

    23. Owen

      “Dude you seriously did not just say that Kobe is much more efficient than Melo, are you kidding me? This is where I need the stat guys to give me some numbers on this.”

      I hate Kobe, and he isn’t the most efficient offensive player, but he has been more efficient from a ts% perspective in his career than Melo, slightly. And he is a much much better player overall, as any linear metric will show.

      While Kobe is known as a scorer, he is actually pretty mediocre in that phase of the game. But he has an outstanding ability to contribute across the boxscore. He is a great rebounder and passer for his position, limits his turnovers, and by all accounts is (or was) a great defender.

      Melo is about as close to playing like Kobe as Kobe is to playing up to his reputation.

    24. Gideon Zaga

      I really liked how you answered my question by not answering my question, smart man. Even though I agree with most of your points, I highly disagree that Kobe is much more efficient than Melo.

      Owen:
      “Dude you seriously did not just say that Kobe is much more efficient than Melo, are you kidding me? This is where I need the stat guys to give me some numbers on this.”

      I hate Kobe, and he isn’t the most efficient offensive player, but he has been more efficient from a ts% perspective in his career, slightly. And he is a much much better player overall, as any linear metric will show.

      While Kobe is known as a scorer, he is actually pretty mediocre in that phase of the game. But he has an outstanding ability to contribute across the boxscore. He is an outstanding rebounder and passer for his position, limits his turnovers, and by all accounts is (or was) a great defender.

      Melo is about as close to playing like Kobe as Kobe is to playing up to his reputation.

    25. Owen

      Well, as I said, it’s not like Kobe is the gold standard for efficiency, at least if you define it by ts%. but Kobe notched ten consecutive years with an offensive rating over 110, a number which Carmelo has yet to hit. Correction, he hit it in 09-10, with 110.

      Basically, if you define efficiency as offensive rating, then sure, Kobe is more efficient. Not sure why you would doubt it.

    26. Ben R

      Gideon – no one said Kobe is much more efficient than Melo just more efficient.

      Kobe career TS% – 55.6%
      Melo career TS% – 54.4%

      Kobe has never had a TS% below 54% Melo has been below 54% 4 times. Kobe is not much more efficient than Melo but he is undeniably more efficient.

    27. Nick C.

      Gideon Zaga: I really liked how you answered my question by not answering my question, smart man. Even though I agree with most of your points, I highly disagree that Kobe is much more efficient than Melo.

      what’s to disagree with by my interpreation he is totally honest and correct. Career TSP and EFG Kobe: .556 and .488 Melo: .544 and .478. If that doesn’t qualify as more efifeicnt albeit slightly than I don’t know what does.

    28. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Gideon Zaga:
      So how hard will it be to stand in front of your mirror and declare yourself a Nuggets fan barring yourself from the Knicks, I did it to the Wizards and now they are not my problem anymore.

      I’ll be a fan of whomever I choose, my bro.

    29. max fisher-cohen

      I put Kobe in the same league offensively as Melo. It’s his defense that separates him. Still, within that league, melo is in the middle, and Kobe is at the top. The difference between 55.3% TS% and 54.4% TS% with a guys who take so man shots is not negligible. It’s about 0.7 PPG on the same number of shots.

      If the Knicks scored 0.7 more ppg on the same number of shots this season, they would be a winning team right now.

    30. Frank

      Nick C.: what’s to disagree with by my interpreation he is totally honest and correct.Career TSP and EFG Kobe: .556 and .488 Melo: .544 and .478. If that doesn’t qualify as more efifeicnt albeit slightly than I don’t know what does.

      I can’t really believe that we’re having this conversation about Melo and Kobe. So here’s the data:

      http://bkref.com/tiny/zmCCL

      Through their age 27 seasons they are for all intents and purposes equally efficient in terms of scoring. Their per-36 numbers (FGA, FG%, FTA, points per shot) are basically rounding errors apart. The main difference is probably that Kobe makes 3 more free throws out of 100 more than Melo, or one free throw every 13 games based on their per-game FTA. So the “more efficient” is really not true but who cares when you’re really just splitting statistical hairs.

      Kobe’s just undeniably better in every other aspect of the game, especially if we’re just talking through his age-27 season. That’s no knock on Melo – Kobe will probably go down as a top-10 player of all time, and probably the 2nd best SG to ever play. That Melo is more like Bernard King than Kobe Bryant is still no insult to him.

      This Melo-bashing is suspiciously like the Ewing-bashing of the 90s. For some reason we just can’t love our stars. Melo has it even worse because 1) he hasn’t YET had the same success as Ewing had, and 2) we gave up players we all had man-crushes on for him in a lopsided trade that we all thought was due to a meddling idiot owner. I guess that’s just human nature but I think we need to MOVE ON from having lost Gallo, WC, etc. and not drafting Ty Lawson (who has not exactly set the world on fire lately btw). Let’s remove ourselves from the perceived injustice of the MeloDrama and judge them on their current merits. And be a little more patient with the team.

    31. hoolahoop

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Here’s the next four drafts:

      2012 first round draft pick to Houston
      New York’s own 2012 1st round pick to Houston (top 5 protected in 2012, top 5 protected in 2013, top 5 protected in 2014, and top 5 protected in the 2015 Draft). If Houston does not receive a 1st round pick from New York by the 2015 Draft, then New York will convey their own 2015 2nd round pick and 2016 2nd round pick to Houston. [Houston – New York – Sacramento, 2/18/2010]

      2012 second round draft pick to Phoenix
      New York’s own 2012 2nd round pick to Phoenix (top 55 protected in the 2012 Draft). If New York’s own 2012 2nd round pick is in the top 55 picks, then New York’s obligations to Phoenix shall be extinguished. [New York – Phoenix, 7/8/2010]

      2013 second round draft pick to Washington
      New York’s own 2013 2nd round pick to Washington. [Dallas – New York – Washington, 12/10/2011]

      2014 first round draft pick to Denver
      New York’s own first round draft pick to Denver in the “First Allowable Draft”. (The First Allowable draft shall be the draft that occurs two years following the year in which New York satisfies its existing obligation to convey their own 2012 protected first round draft pick to the Houston Rockets from the trade involving Jared Jeffries). [Denver – Minnesota – New York, 2/22/2011]

      2016 first round draft pick to Denver

      Can you imagine the laughter in the Denver Nuggets office after the deal was made with Dolan?

    32. conniehawkins

      The beauty of the Nuggets:

      1. Wilson Chandler isn’t there, so their success this year is in no part to him. One former Knick who isn’t helping their team.
      2. Mozgov plays part-time — he’s a cog, that’s it. Another former Knick who is barely helping their team.
      3. Gallo lovers can pine for him….and his 1-10 shooting nights and his inability to pass or defend. He must be the love child of Mel Counts….
      4. The best former Knick on Denver? Harrington!

      We did okay in the trade, but would’ve done better if the coaches had been traded too….

    33. Nick C.

      Frank… this is just a question, wasn’t the Ewing bashing, if there was any, in the late late 90s. He was pretty much beloved for the first decade of his career. IIRC to the extent it came about was + Mason saying Ewing got Nelson fired b/c Nelson ran the offense thru Ewing + the almost exclusive jump shooting, the contract demands when he was past it which IMO were part of the beginning of this long long painful spiral. (or maybe that’s just my personal take)

    34. yoda4554

      conniehawkins:
      The beauty of the Nuggets:

      1. Wilson Chandler isn’t there, so their success this year is in no part to him. One former Knick who isn’t helping their team.
      2. Mozgov plays part-time — he’s a cog, that’s it.Another former Knick who is barely helping their team.
      3. Gallo lovers can pine for him….and his 1-10 shooting nights and his inability to pass or defend.He must be the love child of Mel Counts….
      4.The best former Knick on Denver? Harrington!

      We did okay in the trade, but would’ve done better if the coaches had been traded too….

      Gallo is leading them in scoring on a TS% of 60% (and he’s not even hitting his 3s!) and is getting three assists per 36 on very low turnovers and career high rebounds; WS, for whatever they’re worth, think his defense is just fine, thanks, and that Gallo’s their best overall player. Their second best player by that measure? Andre Miller, who they were only able to acquire by trading former Knick Ray Felton.

    35. BigBlueAL

      Nick C.:
      Frank… this is just a question, wasn’t the Ewing bashing, if there was any, in the late late 90s. He was pretty much beloved for the first decade of his career.IIRC to the extent it came about was + Mason saying Ewing got Nelson fired b/c Nelson ran the offense thru Ewing + the almost exclusive jump shooting, the contract demands when he was past it which IMO were part of the beginning of this long long painful spiral. (or maybe that’s just my personal take)

      Yeah, the constant crap of the team is better w/o Ewing was nauseating. It really started with the Pacers series in 1999. Funny thing is there is no way the Knicks beat the Heat in 1999 and 2000 w/o Ewing. Now you couldve complained that Camby shouldve played more and Ewing/LJ shouldve played less but they still needed both of them especially Ewing. Nobody complained about LJ playing because he didnt shoot as much as Ewing I assume.

      As far as his contract it was simple really, dont trade Ewing and just let his contract expire after the 2001 season. The trade was disastrous, almost as bad if not worse than the Houston contract.

    36. Nick C.

      Nick C.: Frank… this is just a question, wasn’t the Ewing bashing, if there was any, in the late late 90s. He was pretty much beloved for the first decade of his career. IIRC to the extent it came about was + Mason saying Ewing got Nelson fired b/c Nelson ran the offense thru Ewing + the almost exclusive jump shooting, the contract demands when he was past it which IMO were part of the beginning of this long long painful spiral. (or maybe that’s just my personal take)

      not that it matters but it should be Nelson ran the offense thru Mason

    37. ruruland

      and say that Denver is no “closer to winning a title than the Knicks?”

      I don’t think it’s an appropriate comparison yet. But Denver, whom I’m still a fan of, is going to look fantastic in point margin and a lot of those playoff predictive stats.

      I have no doubt that their depth and distribution of usage is going to allow them to win a lot of regular season games, and blow many teams off their home floor, where the advantage is compounded by the thin air.

      I see Denver most analogous to another George Karl team: the Supersonics of the ’90s.

      Incredibly entertaining, up-tempo, deep team.

      From ’92 to ’97 they averaged close to 60 wins a year.
      They finished in the top 3 in pace twice despite being a half-court system. They ran off of turnovers, which they created in bundles off their traps and pressures.

      Their top guys in usage: Kemp, Payton, Johnson, Pierce rarely went above 25%, only a few years with 26 percent usage.

      These were legitimate 9 and 10 player deep teams that dominated the regular season and home court.

      They were a top 4 team in the west during their five year run, had the best record in the west twice, and the best record in the NBA one year.

      They lost to the Suns in ’92 in seven games in the WCF.

      They lost to Denver in the first round in ’93 (they were 21 games better during the regular season)

      They lost to LA (3-1) in the first round in ‘ 94 (and they were 11 games better than the Lakers in the regular season).

      They made the Finals in ’96 and lost to the Bulls.

      They lost to the Rockets in the ’97 semifinals.

      They lost to LA in the ’98 semifinals (4-1) despite winning 61 games.

      4-6, 6-6, 13-8, 1-3, 2-3, 10-9,

      During that six year stretch where they won close to 75 % of their playoff games, they finished with a 36-35 playoff record.

    38. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: it’s the old thing about how a player is very efficient on a limited role, yet struggles when forced to do too much.

      the Nuggets aren’t any closer to winning a title than the Knicks, imo, but the main thing they do have – flexibility.

      if they look at their roster and see that it’s not championship material, they have a huge number of decent assets to package on a trade, and still keep 6, 7 good rotation guys.

      That isn’t going to happen as long as GK is around.

    39. Ben R

      I would say that the supersonic teams were very good in both the playoffs and regular season. Overall in the playoffs they were upset by a team with a worse record twice and beat a team with a better record once. The 1993 upset by the Nuggets was huge, probably the biggest upset in NBA history, but overall with one NBA Finals, one WCF and 3 semifinals they were a good playoff team.

      Also if you don’t think Payton and Kemp were superstars capable of carrying a team down the stretch I don’t know what sport you watch. I would take either of them in their prime over Melo or Amare without even a thought.

    40. danvt

      Maybe I’m giddy from our second win in the last 11 games but I found a reason for optimism. We’re actually pretty good defensively. If the offense improves somewhat, and it can’t get worse, we might actually be OK.

      Landry looks more comfortable. Baron may not need to be a savior. I wish Shumpert had any kind of outside shot, but he looks pressures the ball quite well.

      I’m not expecting playoff success but maybe we can get above .500 and, at least have some fun / hope.

      Also, the problem with IS DOLAN. I almost don’t want to see the team do well this year so that man learns to write checks and stay out of the way. Melo is a good player, just not worth the price paid.

    41. Juany8

      Ruruland is totally right, regular season teams that depend on depth and a lot of fastbreak offense tend to underperform in the playoffs when starters are played longer minutes and the game become far more half court oriented as teams start taking way better care of the ball. The Nuggets get a big boost whenever their bench, which has several starting caliber players on it, is running and beating up on the other team’s scrubs, especially in a season like this where fatigue is a big deal and being able to shorten everyone’s minutes is a big advantage. The post Melo Nugget from last year had more depth and a monster point differential after the trade. They still got blown apart by OKC in the playoffs, who was, at best, the 4th best team in the league, and OKC has gotten better since last year while the Nuggets have stayed the same.

      Playoffs are also largely won by matchups, and the Nuggets are going to have a tough time finding mismatches to exploit past the first round. They’re also going to have to have serious issues defending players like Kobe, Bynum, Durant, Westbrook, Dirk, Aldridge, Love, Paul, Griffin, Randolph, Gasol…. pretty much anyone on the all star team who’s on a team likely to make the second round.

    42. ruruland

      Ben R:

      Also if you don’t think Payton and Kemp were superstars capable of carrying a team down the stretch I don’t know what sport you watch. I would take either of them in their prime over Melo or Amare without even a thought.

      Of course you would take those guys, who wouldn’t you take over Melo and Amar’e?

      Seattle lost to a higher seed four times.

      To advance to just two WCF in a six year stretch where you were the most dominant team in the WC isn’t good.

      The SuperSonics were much more balanced than many of the good playoff teams they faced, in that Kemp or Payton (outside of first round series) were rarely the best players on the floor (highest usage star formula).

      The fact that Denver currently has no one as good as Kemp and Payton and have contributions more evenly distributed, when they’re bound to face OKC, LAL, LAC, SA, Dallas, all teams with star players, will provide and even starker contrast to the test case.

      And no, for all the people that said OKC was simply a “better team” when they beat Denver last year. The same people who say that now were the ones lauding Denver’s post-trade excellence, i.e, best record in basketball, best point differential, “playing like the best team in basketball.

      Lest you be reminded that OKC won 5 more games overal than Denver despite not enduring any significant injury, nor the 2/3 season-long distractions Denver did.

      There were many statisticians who felt that Denver, especially the way they were playing with their “new team”, would beat the Thunder, who btw, had less playoff roster experience than the Nuggets had as well, with a head coach who was formerly an assistant under Karl.

      Everything was lined up for Denver to win that series. Funny how much different playoffs games are when you don’t have stars.

    43. ruruland

      <Melo is a good player, just not worth the price paid.

      I think that or a more cutting derivation thereof should be a signature on every person’s post on this board.

    44. Will the Thrill

      Do you honestly think he is worth the price paid? All of the players traded and his salary?

      ruruland: I think that or a more cutting derivation thereof should be a signature on every person’s post on this board.

    45. ruruland

      Playoffs are also largely won by matchups, and the Nuggets are going to have a tough time finding mismatches to exploit past the first round. They’re also going to have to have serious issues defending players like Kobe, Bynum, Durant, Westbrook, Dirk, Aldridge, Love, Paul, Griffin, Randolph, Gasol…. pretty much anyone on the all star team who’s on a team likely to make the second round.

      Exactly. Denver doesn’t play mismatch basketball.They have no one the roster who is either capable or comfortable in exploiting a percieved mismatch over long durations.

      Nene has never been that guy, despite Denver always trying to make him one. He just doesn’t have the mindset.

      Ty Lawson’s game is about fitting in through the cracks, taking advantage of guys either not fully focused on trying to stay in front of him, or who give him way too much space. He’s so supernaturally quick and fast he’ll always give you solid production, but because he has what is basically a set-shot, it’s very difficult for him to ever evolve into a high-usage “mismatch” player. He cannot consistently get his shot off if he’s the primary focus of the defense.

      Gallo? I have seen no evidence that he has anywhere near the kind of complete game to be a guy to carry you in a mismatch over a a few games in series. Moreover, as a Denver fan, I’m concerned that far too much of his production this year has been gargabe — leak outs, transtition threes, taking advantage of over and under-rotations.

      Miller and Harrington are going to be the guys who’s usage sky rockets in the playoffs — they are the two most complete half-court players, both are the most capable of creating their own shot.

      That kind of formula, as you well imagine, has no shot at beating any team outside of Utah, Memphis, New Orleans, and Portland (Portland is better, IMO, becuase of its reliable pick and pop game with Aldridge)

    46. ruruland

      Will the Thrill:
      Do you honestly think he is worth the price paid? All of the players traded and his salary?

      I don’t think it’s the proper way of looking at it. We all acknowledge that NY gave up way too much for him, way more than they had to.

      Determining whether or not he was worth it is going to depend on variables outside of the transaction. The price paid made it much less likely those variables will properly fall in place, however.

    47. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland:

      Nene has never been that guy, despite Denver always trying to make him one. He just doesn’t have the mindset.

      This kind of claim is so baseless that my nose detects the smell of manure through the computer. This is the worst kind of subjective determination, and it discredits everything else you have to say.

      Do you really think you “know” Nene’s “mindset?” Give me a fucking break, guy.

    48. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This kind of claim is so baseless that my nose detects the smell of manure through the computer. This is the worst kind of subjective determination, and it discredits everything else you have to say.

      Do you really think you “know” Nene’s “mindset?” Give me a fucking break, guy.

      You’re kidding, right?

      Nene’s unwilligness to take a larger role in the offense, to demand more touches on the block, is common knowledge to anyone who’s even passively followed the team the last 7-8 years.

      This is the problem with only understanding the game through the box score.

      That’s not to say people are reading his mind, but his mindset is more than self-evident, even at a cursory glance.

      Coaches have prodded him to be more “selfish” every year that I can remember.

      They have attempted to establish him early in games so that he’ll be more assertive in establishing position on the block to recieve the ball.

      He doesn’t do it and has never done it. Moreover, the countless times teammates have tried to force feed him the ball on the block, he passes out too early, passes up shots, and never tries to re-establish position.

      I mean, you think Denver coaching staff doesn’t realize how effecient Nene is as a scorer?

      It doesn’t matter who Nene’s been surrounded with, he’s not a guy you can rely on to exploit a mismatch over any long stretch of a game.

      They tried it in the Dallas series where he was matched up with Dampier and Dirk. Against New Orleans when it was West.

      You have no idea what you’re talking about.

    49. danvt

      It’s ridiculous to think Denver can’t beat any team in any series. You, obviously don’t need a “star” to go one on one to win. Most of the time, as we’ve seen, teams that rely on this lose. Reading this blog, pounds that point home over and over. Teams that are well coached win. Clutch play is over rated. Teams that find the best shot win. The great teams constantly find different ways to score and are unpredictable. Look at Bob Horry, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher and countless other role players that made big plays when everyone was keying on the teams star. More importantly, look at all the games the great champions of the past who sat their stars the whole fourth quarter. When the Nets played the Lakers in the Finals they didn’t even play well enough where Kobe and Shaq had to play. Defense wins championships, coaches win championships and yes, players need to deliver in big situations, however, often it’s role players that do, and often no one has to.

      Don’t try to make yourselves feel better about the Melo-drama by saying Denver is just a regular season tiger. Especially in this shortened season, unless your Miami, depth is the most important commodity. The McNuggets have it and we don’t. They were better than us before the trade and we only increased their mojo.

    50. max fisher-cohen

      Post-trade, the Thunder were 2-0 vs. the surging Nuggets in the regular season, winning those two games by an average of 11 points. Unlike the other top seeds — Mavs, Spurs, Lakers — OKC was absolutely content to run with Denver. In fact, considering Scott Brooks’ incompetence as an offensive coach, it was probably beneficial for them.

      Matchups are a huge deal in the playoffs. Memphis, while not a better team than San Antonio, ran the spurs out of the playoffs.

      Miami was a much better team than Dallas, but it just so happened that Dallas had two of the best sort of weapons against Miami. They had a great defensive center that could clog the middle, forcing Wade to take jump-shots, which is their biggest weakness. Likewise, they had a team filled with wise vets. These good decision makers kept Dallas’s turnovers to a minimum, countering Miami’s other great strength: forcing turnovers and getting out on fast breaks. Combine those two factors with some luck and a LBJ meltdown, and Dallas wins the championship.

    51. Frank

      danvt:
      It’s ridiculous to think Denver can’t beat any team in any series.You, obviously don’t need a “star” to go one on one to win.Most of the time, as we’ve seen, teams that rely on this lose.Reading this blog, pounds that point home over and over.Teams that are well coached win.Clutch play is over rated.Teams that find the best shot win.The great teams constantly find different ways to score and are unpredictable.Look at Bob Horry, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher and countless other role players that made big plays when everyone was keying on the teams star.More importantly, look at all the games the great champions of the past who sat their stars the whole fourth quarter.When the Nets played the Lakers in the Finals they didn’t even play well enough where Kobe and Shaq had to play.Defense wins championships, coaches win championships and yes, players need to deliver in big situations, however, often it’s role players that do, and often no one has to.

      Don’t try to make yourselves feel better about the Melo-drama by saying Denver is just a regular season tiger.Especially in this shortened season, unless your Miami, depth is the most important commodity.The McNuggets have it and we don’t.They were better than us before the trade and we only increased their mojo.

      I’m not sure if you’re right or wrong, but you negated your own point a couple of times and then made a statement in your last paragraph that is really just an opinion and not close to a fact.

      Why do Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher, and Robert Horry even get an opportunity to hit the big shot? Because the entire defense is fixated on the “superstar”. Do you think Steve Kerr shoots the 3 with no one within 10 feet of him if it’s Gallo driving to the hole instead of MJ? Does Derek Fisher hit his big shots if Wilson Chandler is driving the ball to the hoop?

      continued in next post…

    52. Frank

      In the Nets/Lakers series, the reason the Lakers blew them out is because Kobe and Shaq were probably the 2 best players on the planet and they were so much better than the Nets that the game was over before the 4th quarter. You are right that “teams that find the best shot win” — truth is, the best shot is often the one that is “created” by the superstar, whether it is an iso with the shot clock going down, a pass to a cutter that was set free because of double-teams on the “star” etc.

      The best shots are the ones that come when the offense forces the defense into a bad position. You can do that with crisp ball movement and clever plays or you can do it by forcing double teams and scrambling rotations. In this case, “one-on-one” is really either a complete mismatch where that IS a great shot (ie. MJ vs. whoever), or 1-on-1 turns into 1-on-2 and someone is left open, which facilitates ball movement.

      Sometimes, there are only a few seconds left on the clock, and there is no time for 3-4 passes — in those cases, then the guy who can “create” and make a reasonable shot against a set defense is worth a lot – in fact, just about every team that has won a championship in the last 20 years has had one.

      This whole thing is a circular argument – of course you need guys that aren’t superstars to step up in big moments. But those guys’ moments in the sun are, for the most part, CREATED by the superstars.

      Re: your last paragraph – Denver hasn’t proven anything outside the regular season. They were the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs and then were smoked by OKC, who was then smoked by Dallas 4-1. So I’m not sure why you feel so comfortable that they will be such a great playoff team going forward, other than gut feeling, and everyone’s entitled to one of those.

    53. ruruland

      <blockquote cite="So I’m not sure why you feel so comfortable that they will be such a great playoff team going forward, other than gut feeling, and everyone’s entitled to one of those.

      This board is monolithic in its gut feeling about the future of Denver and the Knicks. This is a Nuggets board, right?

    54. Doug


      This board is monolithic in its gut feeling about the future of Denver and the Knicks. This is a Nuggets board, right?

      It’s a board of of basketball idealists and aesthetes. That’s as nicely as I can put it.

    55. Frank

      wow – Chicago getting absolutely handled by Philly, down 20 to start the 4th. I think Chicago might be a little angry tomorrow unfortunately.

    56. bobneptune

      Juany8:
      Ruruland is totally right, regular season teams that depend on depth and a lot of fastbreak offense tend to underperform in the playoffs when starters are played longer minutes and the game become far more half court oriented as teams start taking way better care of the ball.

      i just couldn’t really disagree more. the 2 most successful dynasties in professional sports history, the boston celtics from 1955-1980 and the showtime lakers entire offensive philosophy were built around the fast break.

      don’t believe me….. red on roundball sez hai:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PPPIQvETGo

      for those of you not familiar with ‘red on roundball’ during the late 60’s/early 70’s if my memory serves me well was a filmed segment at halftime on the national network broadcasts on sunday afternoon where they contracted red to explain various facets of the game.

      its actually pretty good stuff for understanding the game.

    57. d-mar

      Philly blowing out the Bulls tonight. That’ll put Chicago in a good mood tomorrow night. Oh, and it’s a TNT game, so I’m sure Knick-loather Sir Charles is already preparing his “this team is just turrible” halftime rant.

    58. Frank

      bobneptune: i just couldn’t really disagree more. the 2 most successful dynasties in professional sports history, the boston celtics from 1955-1980 and the showtime lakers entire offensive philosophy were built around the fast break.

      don’t believe me….. red on roundball sez hai:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PPPIQvETGo

      for those of you not familiar with ‘red on roundball’ during the late 60?s/early 70?s if my memory serves me well was a filmed segment at halftime on the national network broadcasts on sunday afternoon where they contracted red to explain various facets of the game.

      its actually pretty good stuff for understanding the game.

      fair enough, although I might say that 1955-to pre-Jordan basketball is probably not particularly applicable to today’s NBA. The Showtime Lakers were probably the last team to win with a fast-break style.

    59. BigBlueAL

      Frank: fair enough, although I might say that 1955-to pre-Jordan basketball is probably not particularly applicable to today’s NBA.The Showtime Lakers were probably the last team to win with a fast-break style.

      Funny thing is those Lakers didnt really play at a real fast pace. The highest any of those 80’s Lakers teams finished in pace was 4th, most of the time they were barely in the Top 10 in pace.

      The 90’s Bulls played at a real slow pace, never higher than 18th and as low as dead last (27th in 1993).

      Of course those Lakers teams almost all finished 1st in offensive efficiency and usually always in the Top 10 in defensive efficiency. The Bulls were usually in the Top 5 in both all their title years including finishing 1st in both offensive and defensive efficiency in their 72-10 season.

    60. Z-man

      bobneptune: i just couldn’t really disagree more. the 2 most successful dynasties in professional sports history, the boston celtics from 1955-1980 and the showtime lakers entire offensive philosophy were built around the fast break.don’t believe me….. red on roundball sez hai:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PPPIQvETGofor those of you not familiar with ‘red on roundball’ during the late 60?s/early 70?s if my memory serves me well was a filmed segment at halftime on the national network broadcasts on sunday afternoon where they contracted red to explain various facets of the game.its actually pretty good stuff for understanding the game.

      Actually this is a gross oversimplification. The Lakers were a team that could beat you in a number of ways. They had perhaps the greatest halfcourt scoring threat in history in Kareem, a 6’9″ point guard who could isolate and post up and either score or pass etc. They were an up-tempo team by trade (why not score easy baskets?) but won many a game where teams forced them to play halfcourt slow it down ball. I would think that any “dynasty” team could beat you in multiple ways.

    61. BigBlueAL

      The Bucks were getting killed at home in the 1st half vs the Heat, they are currently up 8 in the 4th quarter with the Heat offense being atrocious in the 2nd half. Its games like this that make people think the Heat wont win it all.

    62. danvt

      I understand what you’re saying and agree, my post was quickly and poorly written. I still think, however, that it was the Bulls, The Lakers, The Spurs, etc. that won championships and not MJ, Kobe, and TD. They played defense, had great coaching, etc. The Pistons won one without a “superstar” perhaps. I just don’t see why an efficient, deep team can’t possibly do it and don’t appreciate some peoples certainty with regard to Denver. I’m not necessarily picking them, but, I think this season is debunking some of the superstar mythology out there. Lebron may be the only player worth giving up five years of assets for and even he lost to a deeper team. With three games in three nights scenarios, teams that have multiple line ups and more than one player that can create mismatches that lead to good shots might have a good chance. Riding one guy may not be the recipe this year.

      And (to others here) I’m not a Denver fan or Melo hater. I even defended Toney Douglas. I am totally moronic in my optimism for JD and the Straight Shooting Knicks. I just appreciate a nuanced discussion of basketball and am willing to learn. There’s plenty of message boards out there where you can insult people and rant without having to back it up. Go over to espn.com and have at it.

      Frank: Re: your last paragraph – Denver hasn’t proven anything outside the regular season. They were the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs and then were smoked by OKC, who was then smoked by Dallas 4-1. So I’m not sure why you feel so comfortable that they will be such a great playoff team going forward, other than gut feeling, and everyone’s entitled to one of those.

    63. bobneptune

      Z-man: Actually this is a gross oversimplification.The Lakers were a team that could beat you in a number of ways.They had perhaps the greatest halfcourt scoring threat in history in Kareem, a 6’9? point guard who could isolate and post up and either score or pass etc.They were an up-tempo team by trade (why not score easy baskets?) but won many a game where teams forced them to play halfcourt slow it down ball.I would think that any “dynasty” team could beat you in multiple ways.

      are you saying the celtics that dominated the game for 25 years weren’t a fast break team?????

      the celtics won 13 titles in 24 years and they didn’t do it posting up russell or iso-ing hondo on the wing.

      they won by running, running and more running. red tells you himself…. but you seem to know better.

      and those laker teams were called “show time” because they primarily pounded the ball to kareem? that was the show part of showtime?

      first you said one can’t win with a fast break offense. i present video evidence of the coach /gm of the winningest team in all pro sports saying their philosophy and way of life is the fast break, yet, i’m somehow “oversimplifying” ?

      you understand roundball better than red? probably not, eh…..

    64. yoda4554

      Frank:

      Re: your last paragraph – Denver hasn’t proven anything outside the regular season. They were the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs and then were smoked by OKC, who was then smoked by Dallas 4-1.So I’m not sure why you feel so comfortable that they will be such a great playoff team going forward, other than gut feeling, and everyone’s entitled to one of those.

      Okay, let’s nip the revisionism now. Scores in OKC-DEN, 2011 playoffs:
      1–107-103 OKC
      2–106-89 OKC
      3–97-94 OKC
      4–104-101 DEN
      5–100-97 OKC

      In what world is a series in which 80% of games are decided by FOUR POINTS OR LESS a “smoking”? If the ambient wind currents generated by fans’ breathing blowed a hair more kindly on the Nuggets, they get a Game 6 in Denver with the opportunity to close out. I mean, we’re talking three or four bounces here–that’s the inevitable sign of doom you’re invoking that proves Denver is incapable of ever winning anything.

      And that OKC-DAL series? Dallas’ margins in their four victories: 9, 6, 4, and an overtime game where they won by 7. Yep, those Thunder just got reamed and never stood a chance.

    65. The Infamous Cdiggy

      danvt:
      I understand what you’re saying and agree, my post was quickly and poorly written.I still think, however, that it was the Bulls, The Lakers, The Spurs, etc. that won championships and not MJ, Kobe, and TD.They played defense, had great coaching, etc.The Pistons won one without a “superstar” perhaps.I just don’t see why an efficient, deep team can’t possibly do it and don’t appreciate some peoples certainty with regard to Denver.I’m not necessarily picking them, but, I think this season is debunking some of the superstar mythology out there.Lebron may be the only player worth giving up five years of assets for and even he lost to a deeper team.With three games in three nights scenarios, teams that have multiple line ups and more than one player that can create mismatches that lead to good shots might have a good chance.Riding one guy may not be the recipe this year.

      You know, everyone brings up the great balance of that ’04 -’06 Piston teams, but I wonder if anyone on the Nuggets are as good as Rasheed Wallace was during that time, especially in ’04. And let’s not forget they had an *incredible* defensive (undersized) center in Ben Wallace…

    66. BigBlueAL

      bobneptune: are you saying the celtics that dominated the game for 25 years weren’t a fast break team?????

      the celtics won 13 titles in 24 years and they didn’t do it posting up russell or iso-ing hondo on the wing.

      they won by running, running and more running. red tells you himself…. but you seem to know better.

      and those laker teams were called “show time” because they primarily pounded the ball to kareem? that was the show part of showtime?

      first you said one can’t win with a fast break offense. i present video evidence of the coach /gm of the winningest team in all pro sports saying their philosophy and way of life is the fast break, yet, i’m somehow “oversimplifying” ?

      you understand roundball better than red? probably not, eh…..

      No offense but those Celtic teams you are referring to are pretty irrelevant in today’s NBA. Winning all those titles when there were a total of 8 teams in the entire NBA is not that great of an accomplishment.

      Z-man is 1000% correct in his assessment of the 80’s Lakers. As I noted above they were not that fast paced a team, most of their points did come playing half-court offense. Of course they are famous for their “showtime” style but there were other teams during that time who were more of a running/fast-paced team than the Lakers were (Denver lead the NBA in pace every year that decade thanks to Doug Moe). Those Lakers were also very good defensively which they dont get credit for.

      The 90’s Bulls played a very slow paced game and it didnt exactly hurt them. Those early Bulls title teams were famous for changing the pace of the game by going to a full-court press at times (I HATED it when they did it vs the Knicks and their horrible ball-handling). But the majority of their scoring was done playing half-court basketball.

    67. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      yoda4554: Okay, let’s nip the revisionism now.Scores in OKC-DEN, 2011 playoffs:
      1–107-103 OKC
      2–106-89 OKC
      3–97-94 OKC
      4–104-101 DEN
      5–100-97 OKC

      In what world is a series in which 80% of games are decided by FOUR POINTS OR LESS a “smoking”?If the ambient wind currents generated by fans’ breathing blowed a hair more kindly on the Nuggets, they get a Game 6 in Denver with the opportunity to close out.I mean, we’re talking three or four bounces here–that’s the inevitable sign of doom you’re invoking that proves Denver is incapable of ever winning anything.

      And that OKC-DAL series?Dallas’ margins in their four victories: 9, 6, 4, and an overtime game where they won by 7.Yep, those Thunder just got reamed and never stood a chance.

      Owned.

    68. nicos

      When did this become a Nuggets forum??? Look, the Nuggets averaged 21.5 points in 4th quarter of their losses against OKC last year and seemed very unsure what to run late in games. Does that mean they’ll never win a championship? I don’t know- maybe Lawson or Gallo will step up this year and it won’t be an issue but maybe not- I like Andre Miller but if he’s your go-to guy down the stretch you’re not winning a championship. I think their larger structural issues are defensive, especially on the interior- Koufos, Anderson, and Mozgov aren’t finishing games in the playoffs and a front line of Nene, Harrington, and Gallo isn’t going to get it done. Maybe Faried helps- I’m sure he’ll rebound and be a solid help defender but he’s undersized and played zero man defense in college so I don’t think you can make any judgements on whether he can defend the post as of yet. They’re by no means the best positioned team for a championship (or even long term success). They’re fun to watch but it’s not like they’re D’A’s Suns- other than Melo trade and Gallo being there I can’t imagine anyone here being so invested in that team- please let it go.

    69. Doug

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Owned.

      Hostile single-word comments like this contribute virtually nothing to the discourse. You of all people should know that. If you want to treat people who disagree with you as personal opponents that need to be “owned” or put into their place, instead of fellow participants and partners in the ongoing dialogue, you are creating a negative and needlessly antagonistic environment.

    70. Ben R

      I don’t think the Nuggets will win it this year because they are not the best team in the West. I would put them 3rd or 4th. I think the reason they won’t win has nothing to do with their style and nothing to do with their lack of an ISO scorer it is because they are simply not as good as the Thunder or the Clippers. Also in the playoffs saavy veteran teams like the Spurs, Lakers and Mavs tend to do better.

      The Miami Heat were very close to winning a championship last year with a running, take advantage of turnovers, struggle in the halfcourt team. In fact I would say Denver produces better than Miami in the halfcourt, yet I would put the Heat as my frontrunner to win it all.

      Other than have one of the top 2 or 3 players in the world and build around them there is no formula for winning a title. Denver is as good or better right now than they ever were with Melo and have just as much of a shot to win it all as the Melo Nuggets’ teams did. For all the talks of playoff success Melo has had next to none. Melo has made the playoffs 8 times and made it out of the 1st round once.

    71. BigBlueAL

      Ben R:
      I don’t think the Nuggets will win it this year because they are not the best team in the West. I would put them 3rd or 4th. I think the reason they won’t win has nothing to do with their style and nothing to do with their lack of an ISO scorer it is because they are simply not as good as the Thunder or the Clippers. Also in the playoffs saavy veteran teams like the Spurs, Lakers and Mavs tend to do better.

      The Miami Heat were very close to winning a championship last year with a running, take advantage of turnovers, struggle in the halfcourt team. In fact I would say Denver produces better than Miami in the halfcourt, yet I would put the Heat as my frontrunner to win it all.

      Other than have one of the top 2 or 3 players in the world and build around them there is no formula for winning a title. Denver is as good or better right now than they ever were with Melo and have just as much of a shot to win it all as the Melo Nuggets’ teams did. For all the talks of playoff success Melo has had next to none. Melo has made the playoffs 8 times and made it out of the 1st round once.

      The reason the Heat almost won it all last season was because they were a Top 5 team in both offense AND defense. The Nuggets this season are 13th in defensive efficiency which is worse than the Knicks. The Thunder are 14th this season after being much worse last season. Thats the achilles heel of both teams (the Clipper are even worse, in the mid 20’s on defense). Its the reason I believe this season in the end either the Bulls or Heat even with their ugly 4th quarter offenses will still probably wind up winning it all because both are much better defensive teams than most West contenders.

    72. Ben R

      BigBlueAL: The reason the Heat almost won it all last season was because they were a Top 5 team in both offense AND defense.The Nuggets this season are 13th in defensive efficiency which is worse than the Knicks.The Thunder are 14th this season after being much worse last season.Thats the achilles heel of both teams (the Clipper are even worse, in the mid 20?s on defense).Its the reason I believe this season in the end either the Bulls or Heat even with their ugly 4th quarter offenses will still probably wind up winning it all because both are much better defensive teams than most West contenders.

      I totally agree, I don’t think the Nuggets are good enough defensively to win it all. I was arguing that it was not a style problem but simply a talent one. I think Denver is better post trade and just as built for the playoffs but still not a top 3-4 team in the league.

      Any style works if you have the talent, run and gun Miami, slow methodical Chicago, or something in between like the Clippers.

    73. ruruland

      Ben R:
      I don’t think the Nuggets will win it this year because they are not the best team in the West. I would put them 3rd or 4th. I think the reason they won’t win has nothing to do with their style and nothing to do with their lack of an ISO scorer it is because they are simply not as good as the Thunder or the Clippers. Also in the playoffs saavy veteran teams like the Spurs, Lakers and Mavs tend to do better.

      The Miami Heat were very close to winning a championship last year with a running, take advantage of turnovers, struggle in the halfcourt team. In fact I would say Denver produces better than Miami in the halfcourt, yet I would put the Heat as my frontrunner to win it all.

      Other than have one of the top 2 or 3 players in the world and build around them there is no formula for winning a title. Denver is as good or better right now than they ever were with Melo and have just as much of a shot to win it all as the Melo Nuggets’ teams did. For all the talks of playoff success Melo has had next to none. Melo has made the playoffs 8 times and made it out of the 1st round once.

      Really?

      I think your post is sort of ignorant to NBA history.

      Going back to 1984, there have only been three teams to win NBA championships who had a player with usage under 28. The two time champ Pistons startin in ’89, Pistons in ’02 and the Celtics of ’08.

      Outside of Detroit in ’02, all of those teams had at least one player who was fantastic at creating his own shot when the defense was bogged down by high-caliber playoff defenses.

      Not every year did the NBA champion have a top 3 player, but all of them had at least one guy who could iso or post up and get a great shot without facilitation.

      Right now the guy with the highest usage on Denver is Al Harrington….at 25.5, no one else is above 21.

    74. ruruland

      Playoff teams with similar profiles to Denver:

      ’11: Pacers (highest starter usage 25) lost first round, Philly (highest starter usage 22) lost first round, Portland Blazers (highest starter usage 25) lost in first round, Denver (highest starter usage 22)

    75. ruruland

      Ben R: I totally agree, I don’t think the Nuggets are good enough defensively to win it all. I was arguing that it was not a style problem but simply a talent one. I think Denver is better post trade and just as built for the playoffs but still not a top 3-4 team in the league.

      Any style works if you have the talent, run and gun Miami, slow methodical Chicago, or something in between like the Clippers.

      From 2008 to 2010, pre-trade year, Denver was 91-40 with both Billups and Melo in the lineup. That’s a 69.5 win percentage, damn near a 60 win pace.

      That’s with Dhantay Jones starting 71 games in ’08 (getting more minutes than the superior JR Smith) and 40 games of Anthony Carter, Malik Allen and Joey Graham starting in 2009 ahead of better players.

      Denver is 32-14 since the trade, which is a win % of 69.5.

      Team A (Melo and Billups) was sub-500 without either Billups or Melo in the lineup. Denver is better positioned in the short term to replace usage in the starting lineup, and they haven’t suffered the same amount of injuries (yet) the Denver teams of ’08 and and ’09.

      Moreover, it’s reasonable to conclude, given the growth of players like Ty Lawson and some ability to improve, Denver with Melo and Billups would have a higher win % than the current Nuggets do, injuries aside.

    76. Ben R

      ruruland: Really?

      I think your post is sort of ignorant to NBA history.

      Going back to 1984, there have only been three teams to win NBA championships who had a player with usage under 28. The two time champ Pistons startin in ’89, Pistons in ’02 and the Celtics of ’08.

      Outside of Detroit in ’02, all of those teams had at least one player who was fantastic at creating his own shot when the defense was bogged down by high-caliber playoff defenses.

      Not every year did the NBA champion have a top 3 player, but all of them had at least one guy who could iso or post up and get a great shot without facilitation.

      Right now the guy with the highest usage on Denver is Al Harrington….at 25.5, no one else is above 21.

      The thing is other than Dallas last year the teams you listed as exceptions to the high usage rule are the only teams that lacked a top 3 player.

      Since 1984 the only teams to win without a top 3 player (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem) are Detroit (1989, 1990, 2004), Boston (2008), and Dallas (2011). Of those teams only one had a high usage player so actually it seems that if you don’t have an all-time great then it pays to play team ball.

      You sort of proved my point if you don’t have a top 3 player then the only way to get around a top 3 player is have a really deep balanced team like all three Pistons teams, the Celtics and the Mavs.

    77. ruruland

      Ben R: The thing is other than Dallas last year the teams you listed as exceptions to the high usage rule are the only teams that lacked a top 3 player.

      Since 1984 the only teams to win without a top 3 player (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem) are Detroit (1989, 1990, 2004), Boston (2008), and Dallas (2011). Of those teams only one had a high usage player so actually it seems that if you don’t have an all-time great then it pays to play team ball.

      You sort of proved my point if you don’t have a top 3 player then the only way to get around a top 3 player is have a really deep balanced team like all three Pistons teams, the Celtics and the Mavs.

      Kobe being a top 3 player is quite debateable. Same with Hakeem.

    78. ruruland

      In fact, outside of Jordan years, top 3 players have rarely won NBA championship.

      You didn’t address the fact that outside of the ’02 Pistons (and even that is debateable with Chauncey) each of these teams had a guy who could consistently cretae for himself.

    79. Nick C.

      That’s the NBA career Usage leaders from Basketball Reference. I thought it was fitting to stop @ 33 Larry Bird
      I believe the names there could be sorted to justify both the you need a Usage player to win camp and to opponents as it includes all the dynsaty teams: Shaq, Michael, Larry, Kobe, Duncan (Tony Parker FWIW is a little further on the list), Hakeem, even Dirk and Pierce. Kareem, in case anyone cares, is 82 @ 24.something I’m sure it’s an era thing.
      The list also has Nique, Free, Gervin, Glenn Robinson, Vince Carter, McGrady, Aguirre (the Detroit titles notwithstanding), AI, Stackhouse, Arenas, etc.

      NBARank Player Usg%
      1. Michael Jordan* 33.26
      2. Dwyane Wade 32.49
      3. LeBron James 31.87
      4. Allen Iverson 31.83
      5. Kobe Bryant 31.68
      6. Carmelo Anthony 31.26
      7. George Gervin* 30.68
      8. Dominique Wilkins* 30.27
      9. Tracy McGrady 29.50
      10. Shaquille O’Neal 29.48
      11. Karl Malone* 29.44
      12. Mark Aguirre 29.09
      13. World B. Free 29.05
      14. Vince Carter 28.93
      15. Glenn Robinson 28.14
      16. Patrick Ewing* 27.98
      17. Gilbert Arenas 27.82
      18. Bernard King 27.80
      19. Paul Pierce 27.77
      20. Tim Duncan 27.72
      21. Jerry Stackhouse 27.58
      22. Walter Davis 27.39
      23. Zach Randolph 27.32
      24. Chris Webber 27.14
      25. Hakeem Olajuwon* 27.08
      26. Dirk Nowitzki 27.02
      27. Amare Stoudemire 26.87
      28. Richard Hamilton 26.85
      29. Yao Ming 26.83
      30. Julius Erving* 26.81
      31. Antoine Walker 26.49
      32. Alex English* 26.48
      33. Larry Bird* 26.45

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