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Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Oct 22 2013)

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Knicks Lose in Overtime (Tue, 22 Oct 2013 03:40:47 GMT)
    Terrence Ross scored 27 points and the Toronto Raptors beat the visiting Knicks, 123-120, in double overtime.    

  • [New York Times] Rose Scores 24 to Keep Bulls Unbeaten in Preseason (Tue, 22 Oct 2013 02:46:01 GMT)
    Derrick Rose scored 24 points to keep the Chicago Bulls unbeaten in the preseason with a 105-84 victory over the winless Milwaukee Bucks on Monday night.    

  • [New York Times] Howard Leads Rockets Over Mavericks 100-95 (Tue, 22 Oct 2013 02:34:18 GMT)
    Dwight Howard had 15 points and 17 rebounds and James Harden scored 19 to help the Houston Rockets to a 100-95 win over the Dallas Mavericks on in a preseason game on Monday night.    

  • [New York Times] Knicks Lose to Raptors in Double Overtime (Tue, 22 Oct 2013 02:25:01 GMT)
    Terrence Ross scored 27 points and the Toronto Raptors beat the visiting Knicks, 123-120, in double overtime.    

  • [New York Times] Irving’s Strong Effort Lifts Cavs Over 76ers (Tue, 22 Oct 2013 01:48:45 GMT)
    Kyrie Irving had 17 points and 12 assists to spoil the homecoming for Evan Turner as Cleveland beat the Philadelphia 76ers 104-93 on Monday night in an exhibition game played at Value City Arena on the Ohio State campus.    

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Kenyon will play when it counts: Woodson (Tue, 22 Oct 2013 03:22:49 GMT)
    Kenyon Martin said Monday morning that the Knicks have mapped out a preservation plan for him for the upcoming season, but the veteran forward would not disclose what that plan entails.    

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks Insider: Bargnani back in 2 OT loss (Tue, 22 Oct 2013 03:17:59 GMT)
    Andrea Bargnani suited up against his former Raptors team on Monday night, one day after the Knicks forward sat out practice with a stiff back. “I feel good. I just needed a little stretch,” Bargnani said before scoring 13 points on 4-for-12 shooting over 29 minutes in the Knicks’ 123-120 double-overtime loss.    

  • 102 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Oct 22 2013)

    1. danvt

      Good game last night. Is there something wrong with me that I get annoyed when the Knicks lose a game like this?

      Obviously, the results of this contest are confounded by many variables. Metta as the “go to guy” just one of many. I did enjoy watching that, though. I’m sure he will be very selfless once the real tilts begin. His three point stroke looks really good now. If he takes it standing still it’s going to catch some suckers off guard, just you wait.

      I’m very concerned about the lack of rebounding. Seems like Tyson is the only guy that can do it on the whole team. That might be the biggest aspect of Kidd’s game that we’ll miss. There’s a myth that, because we have Tyson, we’ll be good at defense and rebounding but he can’t play every position. Perimeter defense very shaky as well. Tyson can’t hedge this year as much as last. Too many dunks given up.

      All that being said, last night was a good game for our one reason for defensive hope. He’s gonna need to be an animal.

    2. johnno

      Am I crazy or is there anyone out there who agrees with me that the last three roster spots should go to Murry, Diogu and Earl Barron? (assuming that he hasn’t signed with anyone else.) Don’t they really need a guy who, for most games, won’t suit up at all but, if there are injuries, might have to be the starting center for 15 games? Isn’t that Earl Barron?

    3. lavor postell

      johnno:
      Am I crazy or is there anyone out there who agrees with me that the last three roster spots should go to Murry, Diogu and Earl Barron?(assuming that he hasn’t signed with anyone else.)Don’t they really need a guy who, for most games, won’t suit up at all but, if there are injuries, might have to be the starting center for 15 games?Isn’t that Earl Barron?

      I think keep Murry, Diogu and Tyler. If we need to sign Barron at some point in season I can’t imagine we’d have too much competition to take him on. I also think he might be playing overseas in China right now, which is fine since the Chinese season ends before the NBA regular season.

      Murry at this point to me is a must have player for one of those last three spots. He has shown that given minutes he can contribute positive overall to the team, especially defensively. Given some more time to develop his point guard skills behind Felton, Prigioni and Udrih I think we may have found another diamond in the rough that we have become quite consistent at finding now.

      From Extra E to Lin to Novak to Cope and now to Murry the Knicks really have done a fantastic job over the last couple of years at maximizing their last few rotation spots to great effect. It really is impressive given how much you watch a franchise like the Lakers flounder in this sense over the same period of time.

    4. danvt

      lavor postell: It really is impressive given how much you watch a franchise like the Lakers flounder in this sense over the same period of time.

      Maybe with last year as an exception, the Lakers haven’t needed those guys, so there may have been diamonds that remained in the rough (Though I don’t know because I didn’t watch them that close). I’m with you on Murray and Diogu. They have certainly won the competition as far as on court performance in actual games. Who knows what goes on in practice or what people have judged to be the upside of others though. I would be disappointed if Leslie made the team based athleticism and ACC pedigree but I remember many were mad that Ewing Jr didn’t make it over Extra E, so, sometimes Papa knows best, whatever it looks like to us guys.

    5. danvt

      lavor postell: I think keep Murry, Diogu and Tyler.

      Maybe I shoudn’t have said “Us guys”. Are you really Lavor Postell or is that just your handle? If you are Lavor, you certainly have a better guess than me as to who will be NYK in 2014. Even if you’re not you probably do. : )

    6. lavor postell

      danvt: Maybe I shoudn’t have said “Us guys”.Are you really Lavor Postell or is that just your handle?If you are Lavor, you certainly have a better guess than me as to who will be NYK in 2014.Even if you’re not you probably do. : )

      Just my handle. I always had a strange affinity for the guy.

      danvt: I’m with you on Murray and Diogu.They have certainly won the competition as far as on court performance in actual games.Who knows what goes on in practice or what people have judged to be the upside of others though.I would be disappointed if Leslie made the team based athleticism and ACC pedigree but I remember many were mad that Ewing Jr didn’t make it over Extra E, so, sometimes Papa knows best, whatever it looks like to us guys.

      Leslie needs game time and a lot more development. I hope we just send him down to Erie in the D-league if he clears waivers. If not and some other team wants to commit a roster spot to him then more power to them. Kind of disappointing we haven’t seen more of Aldrich in the pre-season, but maybe he just hasn’t deserved the PT based on his performance in practice. He wasn’t exactly setting the world on fire in the limited minutes we saw him in and considering Powell and Diogu have seen plenty of action I don’t think it’s a case of him not getting a fair shake. I think Murry is almost guaranteed a spot at this juncture considering his level of play and that the Knicks made it a point to beat out Miami for his services in the preseason.

    7. lavor postell

      “Two years ago, it looked as if Dwight Howard would win this award every season. But trade-related inanity and injuries have blown the race wide open; could you have even imagined 24 months ago that Marc Gasol might win Defensive Player of the Year one day? Tyson Chandler won it two years ago, and he’ll remain a good candidate. Erik Spoelstra has already started the campaign for LeBron, but wings have a tough time winning this one, even if LeBron is unique as an all-court destructive force. Lots of other candidates will make noise given good health, but Hibbert’s astonishing play in the postseason — free of fouls, full of perfect “verticality” — will have everyone watching him early.”

      Hibbert is definitely a very good defensive center and given how hard he has had to work to acquire the limited athleticism he displays and how much maximizes it the guy deserves major kudos.

      With that being said it is fucking annoying to constantly see his amazing “verticality” being mentioned as if that is the end all be all of playing defense as a big man. He was still out there flailing his arms out like fucking Gumby and smacking guys in the face, but since he jumped up straight this somehow made it impossible for him to commit a foul. It is even more frustrating when a guy like Zach Lowe who is probably the best basketball writer out there blindly states this as fact. It wasn’t even just against the Knicks that he got away with it either. The entire Miami series was amusing as Hibbert was able to smack around Lebron and Wade with impunity as those two tried to figure out why for the first time in their careers why they weren’t getting the whistle in their favor.

    8. Hubert

      One of Zach Lowe’s predictions for this year fits into my long running belief that there is at least one sucker out there who will be desperate enough to trade for Amar’e:

      4. Washington Will Trade for a Big Man in the Next Month — If Emeka Okafor’s Prognosis Is Bad

      General manager Ernie Grunfeld is in the last year of his contract, and owner Ted Leonsis, not the shy sort, has made it clear he expects the Wiz to make the playoffs. Washington was over .500 last season when Bradley Beal and John Wall were both available, and lineups featuring combinations of its core six or seven guys generally did quite well. But Okafor was one of those core guys, and the gap between Okafor and his backups — Kevin Seraphin and Jan Vesely — is a freaking chasm. Al Harrington can soak up some minutes as a small-ball power forward, a role he played brilliantly for Denver two seasons ago, but he’s aging and coming off major knee issues.

      The Wiz need a big man, unless they get good news soon on Okafor. Alternatively, if Okafor is healthy, Washington could continue its history of flipping mega-expiring contracts (and the cap space they promise) into players on longer-term deals; that’s how it got Okafor. Stay tuned either way on the Wiz.

    9. johnno

      lavor postell: It is even more frustrating when a guy like Zach Lowe who is probably the best basketball writer out there blindly states this as fact.

      There was an article this morning about Derrick Favors (maybe by Lowe?) in which he said that Favors should emulate Hibbert’s ability to “go vertical.” I remember one play in the Indy series in which Tyson Chandler went up absolutely vertically and brought his had down to try to block the shot and accidentally hit the shooter on the head. Not only did they call a foul, but the refs reviewed it to see if it should be flagrant. Yet, Melo’s headband could get knocked into the crowd and the announcers would scream, “Hibbert does a great job going vertical!” (as you can see, I’m still bitter, although I did enjoy LeBron and Wade’s confused looks)

    10. ephus

      Hubert – I doubt that the Wizards (or anyone) will trade for Amar’e:

      1. He can’t stay on the court. Even if you think he is back to prior performance, he simply can’t play more than 20 minutes per game.

      2. There is no insurance on the contract. If Amar’e goes out, his team gets nothing. He has one of the few uninsured contracts.

      3. His salary is too high. There simply is not a package of players that the Wizards could put together to match salaries, unless the Wizards sent expiring contracts.

      4. He has too long left on his contract. Amar’e still has two years left on his contract. Next year, he might be a plausible trade as an expiring contract. But this year, no chance.

      If DC trades for a big man, I can see them trying to get Greg Monroe (rumored by Lowe to be on the block) for Kevin Seraphin and the Wizards 2014 First Round pick.

    11. Owen

      Seems a little too good to be true. But clearing Amare off the cap would be amazing.

      Hubert:
      One of Zach Lowe’s predictions for this year fits into my long running belief that there is at least one sucker out there who will be desperate enough to trade for Amar’e:

      4. Washington Will Trade for a Big Man in the Next Month — If Emeka Okafor’s Prognosis Is Bad

      General manager Ernie Grunfeld is in the last year of his contract, and owner Ted Leonsis, not the shy sort, has made it clear he expects the Wiz to make the playoffs. Washington was over .500 last season when Bradley Beal and John Wall were both available, and lineups featuring combinations of its core six or seven guys generally did quite well. But Okafor was one of those core guys, and the gap between Okafor and his backups — Kevin Seraphin and Jan Vesely — is a freaking chasm. Al Harrington can soak up some minutes as a small-ball power forward, a role he played brilliantly for Denver two seasons ago, but he’s aging and coming off major knee issues.

      The Wiz need a big man, unless they get good news soon on Okafor. Alternatively, if Okafor is healthy, Washington could continue its history of flipping mega-expiring contracts (and the cap space they promise) into players on longer-term deals; that’s how it got Okafor. Stay tuned either way on the Wiz.

    12. johnno

      ephus: Greg Monroe (rumored by Lowe to be on the block)

      I’ve seen a lot about Monroe now being superfluous because they now have a logjam at the 3 and the 4 and I just don’t get it. Between the 4 and 5, there are 96 minutes of playing time each game. Why can’t Drummond, Monroe and Smith each play 32 minutes — i.e. Drummond plays 32 minutes at the 5, Smith plays 32 at the 4 and Monroe plays 16 at the 5 when Drummond sits and 16 at the 4 when Smith sits?

    13. Hubert

      ephus:

      3.His salary is too high.There simply is not a package of players that the Wizards could put together to match salaries, unless the Wizards sent expiring contracts.

      Ariza and Okafor combine to make $22,214,870 in salary that expires this year.

      I understand all the reasons you think no one should trade for Amar’e. I maintain there is someone stupid enough to ignore them, and Washington fits the bill.

      (This does, of course, require Amar’e to actually start the year playing 20-25 minutes and looking like he did in January before he got hurt.)

    14. ephus

      Hubert. As I wrote, the only way the Wizards can make a deal for Amar’e work is to send out EXPIRING contracts. Of course, the Knicks would do that deal in an instant. But Expirings have a value and the Knicks do not have the ability to trade a first round pick (2014 to Denver, 2016 to Toronto) to sweeten the deal.

    15. Hubert

      ephus:

      4.He has too long left on his contract.Amar’e still has two years left on his contract.Next year, he might be a plausible trade as an expiring contract.But this year, no chance.

      And in the trade I posited, he really only has one year to Washington, since we would be taking back an equal amount of money for this year what Washington would consider dead. So paying $23mm for Amar’e this year to maybe do something is actually better than paying $23 million for Ariza and Okafor to definitely not play. And then next year he becomes an expiring contract for them to flip again, because that’s the kind of dumb shit they do down there.

    16. ephus

      On Greg Monroe, I think that Detroit is not certain they want to give him the big money now that he is ready to come off of the rookie scale. If there is a team that will give Detroit value for Monroe (like a 2014 unprotected first round pick), I think he might move.

    17. Hubert

      ephus:
      Hubert.As I wrote, the only way the Wizards can make a deal for Amar’e work is to send out EXPIRING contracts.Of course, the Knicks would do that deal in an instant.But Expirings have a value and the Knicks do not have the ability to trade a first round pick (2014 to Denver, 2016 to Toronto) to sweeten the deal.

      How valuable are expiring contracts now, really? The days of Theo Ratliff being a hot commodity are gone. The amount of egregious long term contracts teams are desperate to get out of is much lower.

      How many teams do you think have $23mm in long term commitments right now that they’re so desperate to get rid of that they would take back two guys who can’t play this year?

    18. ephus

      But both Okafor and Ariza have insured contracts. So the team gets back 80% of the salary (approximately $18 million) if Okafor and Ariza do not play. That is a huge financial hit for Washington. Not likely to happen (although I wish it would).

    19. Hubert

      Hubert: How valuable are expiring contracts now, really?The days of Theo Ratliff being a hot commodity are gone.The amount of egregious long term contracts teams are desperate to get out of is much lower.

      How many teams do you think have $23mm in long term commitments right now that they’re so desperate to get rid of that they would take back two guys who can’t play this year?

      So I scoured the league on shamsports to answer my own question:

      I can see Golden State wanting to unload Lee, but he has even more money due than Amar’e.

      Maybe LA wants to trade Nash for an expiring but what good does that do Washington?

      New Orleans has Eric Gordon.

      Toronto has DeMar DeRozan

      The only team I can see with a ton of expensive crap on their roster that they’d want to unload for expiring contracts is Boston. So I can see them offering assets to Detroit to facilitate a deal that sends Monroe to Washington in which they get to dump Wallace and Green.

      But I just don’t think $23mm in expiring assets is very valuable anymore. And that goes to anyone thinking Amar’e will be valuable to us in the last year of his deal. He won’t be.

    20. Hubert

      ephus:
      But both Okafor and Ariza have insured contracts.So the team gets back 80% of the salary (approximately $18 million) if Okafor and Ariza do not play.That is a huge financial hit for Washington.Not likely to happen (although I wish it would).

      Again, you’re coming at this from the perspective of a logical, well-run front office. I’m asking you to look at it through the eyes of Ernie Grunfeld and Ted Leonsis.

    21. ephus

      Hubert: But I just don’t think $23mm in expiring assets is very valuable anymore. And that goes to anyone thinking Amar’e will be valuable to us in the last year of his deal. He won’t be.

      I agree. Amar’e is going to have even less value than the typical expiring contract, because he is uninsured. But I cannot see Washington being so foolish as to trade for Amar’e when he is uninsured and cannot stay on the floor.

      I think you are correct that Boston might get into a trade with Detroit (and Washington) for Monroe. Boston has given up on this season, and just wants to move the Crash Wallace contract. I also could see Boston sending Rondo/Wallace to Indiana for Granger/Hill plus Indiana’s 2014 (or 2015) First Round pick.

    22. ephus

      I could much more easily see Washington sending Okafor/Ariza/2014 First Round Pick/Right To Swap 2015 First Round Pick to the Lakers for Pau Gasol. That trade works, helps LA rebuild and provides much more upside for Washington.

    23. Hubert

      I can’t see LA doing that. The Young Buss doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy who sees the value in stockpiling first round picks.

      I feel like the difference between us on this subject comes down to you looking at every trade through the eyes of Morey or Presti, whereas I’m focusing on the track records of the people who are involved.

      The Greg Monroe thing is very real, though. I can see him being moved. My scenario obviously involves them being very desperate and lacking choices.

      Keep in mind, almost every “untradeable contract” we’ve ever heard of has been traded for, and a lot of them were traded for prior to their final year. (Gerald Wallace, Joe Johnson, Andrea Bargnani, Andrew Bogut, and many more). We’re not the only idiots in this league.

    24. Hubert

      This was also won of his predictions, unfortunately:

      22. J.R. Smith Will Start at Least 20 Games

      His agency, CAA, plays a huge role in running the team. Smith has indicated he’d like to start, and Woodson almost preemptively sounded the alarm on this issue when training camp opened. The Knicks are weird.

      I think by January we will rue re-signing JR Smith. He seems destined to hinder Shumpert’s development and let us down in the playoffs again.

    25. lavor postell

      What is our cap situation in the event that we are able to move STAT’s contract, Melo opts out and say re-upps for 5-years, $100 mill? Does that move the needle much in terms of being able to add anybody of note to the roster via free agency? If not then I’d rather just hold on to STAT and see if by some miracle of modern medicine he can become a valuable contributor on a limited minutes basis over the next 2 years.

    26. lavor postell

      Hubert:
      This was also won of his predictions, unfortunately:

      22. J.R. Smith Will Start at Least 20 Games

      His agency, CAA, plays a huge role in running the team. Smith has indicated he’d like to start, and Woodson almost preemptively sounded the alarm on this issue when training camp opened. The Knicks are weird.

      I think by January we will rue re-signing JR Smith.He seems destined to hinder Shumpert’s development and let us down in the playoffs again.

      Idk man I don’t love JR but I think people are only remembering his playoff performance with no credit given to what was a really valuable regular season contribution. Hell he was pretty lights out for the first 3 games of the Boston series before his elbow met Jason Terry’s face, which would never have happened if the refs didn’t let Terry mug the shit out of him in the first place.

      Sure CAA plays a role in running the team, but that didn’t force Woodson to start him last year, even during the Flight White in the starting lineup era. Also I’m sick of people acting like the Knicks are the only organization in which CAA or agents in general have a major say in contractual decision making.

      This from Zach Lowe

      “But there is some risk in angering Fegan. Teams live in fear of the power agents; they play a much larger role in trades and general team dynamics than a lot of fans might realize. Martell Webster is a Wizard, on a nice fat contract, in part because Fegan represents the trio of Webster, Wall, and Nene. Arn Tellem represents every player involved in the Tyreke Evans–Greivis Vasquez–Robin Lopez transaction, and that isn’t a coincidence.

      It matters how Fegan gets along with the Wiz organization, and he’d obviously prefer his star young client to get as much money RIGHT FREAKING NOW as possible.”

      http://www.grantland

    27. ephus

      lavor postell:
      What is our cap situation in the event that we are able to move STAT’s contract, Melo opts out and say re-upps for 5-years, $100 mill?Does that move the needle much in terms of being able to add anybody of note to the roster via free agency?If not then I’d rather just hold on to STAT and see if by some miracle of modern medicine he can become a valuable contributor on a limited minutes basis over the next 2 years.

      For 2014-15, if Carmelo stays at roughly his current salary, even if the Knicks were able to drop STAT for no returning salary, the Knicks would still be above the salary cap of $58 million. They would be well below the Luxury Tax threshold of ~$70 million, but that only allows them to use the full MLE.

      The Knicks first opportunity to have cap space is 2015-16. The Knicks only obligations in that year are:

      1. Ray Felton – player option – $4.5 million
      2. Iman Shumpert – qualifying offer – $3.9 million (if healthy, he will certainly sign a multi-year contract for much more)
      3. Pablo Prigioni – $1.7 million
      4. Tim Hardaway Jr. – team option – $1.3 million.
      5. JR Smith – player option $6 million

      By that time, they almost certainly will have come to a conclusion with Carmelo. During that offseason, they will have to decide whether to keep Bird Rights on STAT (no chance), Tyson Chandler (maybe) and Bargnani (who knows). Knicks could have over $20 million in cap space during that off-season.

    28. Hubert

      I was thinking much more aggressively, ephus. Let’s say the Amar’e miracle occurs. You can open up two max slots for this summer after Melo opts out with a little work.

    29. nicos

      Hubert:
      I was thinking much more aggressively, ephus.Let’s say the Amar’e miracle occurs.You can open up two max slots for this summer after Melo opts out with a little work.

      You’d have to move Chandler and if he finishes the season the way he finished last year I’m not sure you’d have a lot of takers without taking salary back.

    30. Hubert

      nicos: You’d have to move Chandler and if he finishes the season the way he finished last year I’m not sure you’d have a lot of takers without taking salary back.

      We don’t have to assume every worst case scenario!

      Ephus, question about cap holds. Let’s just say for the sake of argument we were to trade everyone on our roster making more than $3mm except Melo.

      I understand the minimum cap holds for players not on the roster.

      How does Melo’s cap hold work after he opts out? And what if his cap hold is $24 million but he agrees to play for $20 million?

    31. JK47

      I gotta say I’m not all that fired up for having Melo around on a Kobe-esque max contract in his 30′s. That does not sound like the foundation of a great basketball team.

    32. Donnie Walsh

      ephus:
      Of course, the Knicks would do that deal in an instant.

      Hahahaha. Yes, of course they would. Hahahaha.

      If Amar’e plays his way into having value, he will be considered valuable to the Knicks, and they will not trade him, so matter how many “instants” they are given to ponder it.

      If y’all don’t know the Knicks by now, you ain’t never ever gonna know them.

    33. Donnie Walsh

      Ridiculous dreams of the Knicks trading Stoudemire this season aside, the notion that “expiring contracts don’t have value these days” is equally silly. With the punitive tax brackets kicking in, teams are going to do everything but assassinate their players to try to get under the various thresholds.

    34. ephus

      If/when Melo opts to become a free agent, the Knicks will have a cap hold in the amount of 150% of this year’s salary (roughly $30 million) until the Knicks either sign or renounce him. Once Melo signs, his cap hold is the amount of his new salary. If they renounce him, there is no cap hold, but the Knicks would no longer have Bird Rights to him.

      The 150% rule has the effect of forcing teams to make a quick decision on high salary veterans. For example, KG signed his new Celtics contract quickly because his old cap hold was almost $30 million. Kobe’s cap hold at the end of this year will be $45 million. So, if Buss the Younger wants to rebuild around Kobe, he will have to resign Kobe before making a run at LeBron.

    35. ephus

      Donnie Walsh: If Amar’e plays his way into having value, he will be considered valuable to the Knicks, and they will not trade him, so matter how many “instants” they are given to ponder it.

      If y’all don’t know the Knicks by now, you ain’t never ever gonna know them.

      You may be right, but I doubt that we will ever get to see whether Lucy would pull that football away.

    36. massive

      The more I think about Melo’s having the ability to pick his own teammates, the more I realize how little appeal it has. How appealing is playing with 31 year old Melo, Shump, and 30 year old PipeMasterFlex to guys like Rondo, Kevin Love, Aldrige, Bynum, etc? I only see Rondo as the guy who signs here. We need to have the space for two max guys, or have a really good core group of players to get a good guy to commit to playing here for 4 years (or his prime).

      This brings me back to Greg Monroe. I feel like he needs to be a Knick if we expect to pull in a great player in two off seasons. Essentially, you want Shumpert and Monroe to split a max deal (or about $18 million) with Melo making around 16 million himself. That’s 34 million given to three really good players for that year. Then you have JR Smith making his 6 and Felton making 4. So 5 players on the books for $44 million, plus TH2 and 2015 1st for another 4-ish. Actually, Tim would probably have to be a Piston for Monroe to be a Knick, so We’re likely to have 12 million available if we get Monroe. Without Monroe, we’re looking at around $18 million to essentially offer one guy like a Rondo and then lose in the 2nd round for another 4 years unless that guy we end up getting is LeBron.

      All of this is to say we need more than what we currently offer to pull in a roster that makes us contenders. Getting Greg Monroe allows us a core of Shumpert/Melo/Monroe to offer a free agent. Melo, Shump, and Pipe won’t do that on their own.

    37. DRed

      ephus:
      If/when Melo opts to become a free agent, the Knicks will have a cap hold in the amount of 150% of this year’s salary (roughly $30 million) until the Knicks either sign or renounce him.Once Melo signs, his cap hold is the amount of his new salary.If they renounce him, there is no cap hold, but the Knicks would no longer have Bird Rights to him.

      The 150% rule has the effect of forcing teams to make a quick decision on high salary veterans.For example, KG signed his new Celtics contract quickly because his old cap hold was almost $30 million.Kobe’s cap hold at the end of this year will be $45 million.So, if Buss the Younger wants to rebuild around Kobe, he will have to resign Kobe before making a run at LeBron.

      This is yet another reason why we just need to renounce him.

    38. Hubert

      Donnie Walsh:
      Ridiculous dreams of the Knicks trading Stoudemire this season aside, the notion that “expiring contracts don’t have value these days” is equally silly. With the punitive tax brackets kicking in, teams are going to do everything but assassinate their players to try to get under the various thresholds.

      1. Who are you quoting? Because I didn’t say they have no value. I said their value is dwindling, and I said one single $23 million contract isn’t going to be as valuable as many people think it will be.

      2. Brooklyn, Miami, and NY are forecast to be above the luxury tax in 2014/15. That’s it. How many of those teams do you think are going to trade their expensive players for expiring contracts this year in order to avoid the luxury tax next year?

    39. stratomatic

      If you are a Knicks fan, you should have been 2015 rebuild mode about 10 minutes after the Melo trade. Signing Amare to a long term max deal despite his well known physical issues, probable decline, and uninsured contract was risky enough. Pairing him with Melo was preposterous.

      I would prefer we start from scratch and let both go, but I think we are stuck with Melo for a bunch more years and I think it will be tough to build a champion with him as veteran max player centerpiece.

    40. Hubert

      ephus:
      If/when Melo opts to become a free agent, the Knicks will have a cap hold in the amount of 150% of this year’s salary (roughly $30 million) until the Knicks either sign or renounce him.Once Melo signs, his cap hold is the amount of his new salary.If they renounce him, there is no cap hold, but the Knicks would no longer have Bird Rights to him.

      The 150% rule has the effect of forcing teams to make a quick decision on high salary veterans.For example, KG signed his new Celtics contract quickly because his old cap hold was almost $30 million.Kobe’s cap hold at the end of this year will be $45 million.So, if Buss the Younger wants to rebuild around Kobe, he will have to resign Kobe before making a run at LeBron.

      So if the Amar’e miracle happened, it’s extremely possible to make enough room to sign a second max free agent *this summer* IF Melo was willing to start at $20.5 million instead of $23 million.

      I wouldn’t count on Melo taking less money in any other scenario, but if you could free up $40 million + in cap room for him and LeBron, then I could see him taking a small haircut.

      Of course, we can cross that bridge when the miracle happens.

    41. Hubert

      Donnie Walsh:
      If Amar’e plays his way into having value, he will be considered valuable to the Knicks, and they will not trade him, so matter how many “instants” they are given to ponder it.

      If y’all don’t know the Knicks by now, you ain’t never ever gonna know them.

      This, however, is actually a real problem. The Knicks’ FO would probably rather take their chances as a 4 seed going into the playoffs with 40-1 odds of winning the title than make the moves needed to sign a max FA this summer.

    42. lavor postell

      Hubert: This, however, is actually a real problem.The Knicks’ FO would probably rather take their chances as a 4 seed going into the playoffs with 40-1 odds of winning the title than make the moves needed to sign a max FA this summer.

      It’s sad because I think with the moves the front office made in the last 2 seasons, a healthy Amar’e could really have been the difference between losing to the Pacers in 6 and winning a championship and in the process bumping off Lebron and Co. A healthy Amar’e is probably one of the biggest what ifs in recent Knick history.

      Unfortunately the biggest gamble was the one we took on STAT and his history of knee issues. If we had even got 3 relatively healthy years out of him the contract wouldn’t be the albatross it is now and who knows what we could have done the last couple of years. It really is unfortunate we are unlikely to see what a real Melo-STAT-Tyson frontcourt could have done against the league.

    43. Hubert

      We’ll always have game 1 against Boston in 2011. Amar’e and Melo looked great that night. And then Amar’e injured himself in pregame warmups before game 2, and the end.

    44. Hubert

      Hubert:
      We’ll always have game 1 against Boston in 2011.Amar’e and Melo looked great that night.And then Amar’e injured himself in pregame warmups before game 2, and the end.

      Bad memory. Melo played like shit that night, before turning in a Bernard King-esque game 2.

      Amar’e was awesome in game 1, though.

    45. ephus

      Hubert: So if the Amar’e miracle happened, it’s extremely possible to make enough room to sign a second max free agent *this summer* IF Melo was willing to start at $20.5 million instead of $23 million.

      No. Even without Amar’e and even if the Knicks got Carmelo to bring his 2014-15 salary down to $20 million, they would have no cap space left to bring in a free agent and could only use their MLE.

      Per Hoopshype:
      Melo – $20 million (in Hubert’s dream scenario)
      Tyson Chandler – $14.5 million
      Bargnani – $12 million
      Felton – $4.3 million
      Shumpert – $2.7 million (unless the Knicks don’t exercise team option)
      Prigioni – $1.6 million
      JR Smith – $6 million

      Total is $60 million (over the salary cap) before cap holds for anyone else. Even renouncing Shump only gets the Knicks to the salary cap. But there is no conceivable circumstances where ‘Melo stays and the Knicks have the salary cap room to bring in another free agent this summer.

    46. ephus

      Hubert: Bad memory. Melo played like shit that night, before turning in a Bernard King-esque game 2.

      If Jared Jeffries can catch a ball and dunk while wide open under the rim at the end of game 2, the Knicks had a chance to win that series.

      Thank you for re-animating that trauma.

    47. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I like how when Wins Produced says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s hogwash.

      When Vegas says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s cause for alarm.

      And yes, Steve Novak with a TS% of 65 can be better than Carmelo Anthony. 50% 3PT shooting is absurd.

    48. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I like how when Wins Produced says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s hogwash.

      When Vegas says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s cause for alarm.

      And yes, Steve Novak with a TS% of 65 can be better than Carmelo Anthony. 50% 3PT shooting is absurd.

      WP (by their own admission!) has been pretty bad at predicting team outcomes, last I checked Vegas seems to be doing okay.

    49. thenamestsam

      I’m not sure the value of expiring contracts is dwindling as much as going through a temporary slump due primarily to the amnesty clause. Having a one-time ability to wipe a horrible deal off your cap not only saved a lot of teams from gross cap situations, but also saved them from the kinds of short-sighted moves many of them would have made to dodge those situations (if history is any guide) leading to even worse situations down the line. As we get further from the amnesty and some teams start to deal with the repercussions of the repeater tax I expect the value of expiring deals to start to come back up.

    50. stratomatic

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I like how when Wins Produced says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s hogwash.

      When Vegas says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s cause for alarm.

      And yes, Steve Novak with a TS% of 65 can be better than Carmelo Anthony. 50% 3PT shooting is absurd.

      I believe there’s a misunderstanding here about WP. WP does NOT tell you which player is better. It tells you which player is being more productive relative to norms of the position he plays. The reason Melo comes up so weak on WP is because he’s a weak rebounder and shot blocker relative to better PFs in the league. He doesn’t get a huge bump for his scoring because he’s not particulary efficient (shot selection) and WP recognizes that shot creation is overvalued by fans, media types etc…. If he put up the same stats as a SF, he would rate a lot better. If he put up the same stats as a SG he would rate still better. You can’t ask if Melo is better than Novak or Brewer. You have to ask who is adding more value relative to the norms of their respective positions.

    51. Z-man

      Melo is not the problem per se. He could be a sidekick to a transcendent HOFer like, say, LeBron or Paul or Rose. Melo was great on the USA national teams, never heard a single complaint about him. The issue is getting that other guy. Obviously, Amare isn’t it, and neither is Chandler.

      Seriously, does anyone think that the Heat would be any worse with Melo instead of Wade or Bosh? Or that the Knicks would be any better with Wade or Bosh (or Harden or Durant or Howard, or, yikes, Faried) on a similar contract?

    52. DRed

      Z-man: Yup, in a game of H-O-R-S-E, Mr. “1-trick pony” Novak’s your guy.

      It’s pretty obvious that Carmelo is a better basketball player than Novak. He can do things like rebound, go past a defender, play decent defense, dribble, pass, and dunk that Novak can’t do. Novak is, as you say, a one trick pony. Say Novak had a year where he hit 80% of his 3′s. Carmelo would still be a better basketball player, but don’t you think that Novak would be more valuable that year?

    53. Z-man

      DRed: It’s pretty obvious that Carmelo is a better basketball player than Novak.He can do things like rebound, go past a defender, play decent defense, dribble, pass, and dunk that Novak can’t do.Novak is, as you say, a one trick pony.Say Novak had a year where he hit 80% of his 3?s.Carmelo would still be a better basketball player, but don’t you think that Novak would be more valuable that year?

      No, because the assumption is that Novak would be on a team with starters that would create space for him. Novak depends on other players for space maybe more than any other player in the league. Melo depends on nobody. Last season, you could pretty much pencil him in for 28ppg on .570 TS% at a .36 USG% no matter what the other team’s defensive strategy was, short of a triple-team. Novak can be single-covered by a 6’2″ guard, and once he is denied his pet shot, he is a total liability in every other aspect of the game. He makes Bargnani look like Bill Russell on defense.

      If you adjust for salary, then you could make the argument that, say, if Oden panned out for Miami, Novak would be more valuable dollar for dollar than Melo for that team. But it is still a really bad comparison, and one that reveals the fatal flaws of metrics like WP48.

    54. mokers

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      I like how when Wins Produced says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s hogwash.

      When Vegas says the Knicks will be terrible, it’s cause for alarm.

      When did Vegas say the knicks were going to be terrible? The +/- for wins when I checked was 49.5.

    55. DRed

      Z-man: No, because the assumption is that Novak would be on a team with starters that would create space for him. Novak depends on other players for space maybe more than any other player in the league. Melo depends on nobody. Last season, you could pretty much pencil him in for 28ppg on .570 TS% at a .36 USG% no matter what the other team’s defensive strategy was, short of a triple-team. Novak can be single-covered by a 6’2? guard, and once he is denied his pet shot, he is a total liability in every other aspect of the game. He makes Bargnani look like Bill Russell on defense.

      If you adjust for salary, then you could make the argument that, say, if Oden panned out for Miami, Novak would be more valuable dollar for dollar than Melo for that team. But it is still a really bad comparison, and one that reveals the fatal flaws of metrics like WP48.

      So Novak’s made 3′s don’t help his team win because he can’t get open by himself?

    56. Unreason

      DRed: Say Novak had a year where he hit 80% of his 3?s. Carmelo would still be a better basketball player, but don’t you think that Novak would be more valuable that year?

      Nice thought experiment. It brings to mind the question of how versatility relates to defendability (not a real word, I know) especially in a playoff series. If Novak hit 80% of his 3′s over a regular season he’d get a little bit of attention from defenders in the post season. So does the example’s case for his greater value break if we think that through? To continue to be valuable, we’d have to imagine him being two things: A) impossibly great at a skill he actually has and B) having skills he doesn’t actually have: getting open off screens with 2 guys hounding him; being an effective passer out of double teams; etc. Otherwise we’d have to expect that teams would just shut him down.

      I.e. I think we’d need imagine him being a more versatile player and not just a great 3 point shooter who can’t do anything else. If that logic seems right it means he’d have to stop being an example of the hyperefficient specialist in order to expect him to remain valuable. That would lead me to conclude he might not be more valuable than Anthony even with absurdly exaggerated efficiency. What do you think?

    57. Z-man

      DRed: So Novak’s made 3?s don’t help his team win because he can’t get open by himself?

      That’s not what I’m saying. My point is that you can’t just assume that Novak hitting a high % of his three pointers makes him valuable in and of itself; it all depends on usage and on what else he does. If he goes 4-5 in 20 minutes every game, that’s different than going 1-1 in 20 minutes 4 games and 0-1 in 20 minutes in the 5th game, since he is costing you on the boards and on D. If he can’t get his pet shot off vs. a tough defensive team, then he becomes fool’s gold in that you depended on him all season and now you can’t when it counts most.

    58. Z-man

      Anyway, the reality is that Novak doesn’t hit 80% of his 3′s, and never will. He is incredibly accurate, but even at a general TS% of, say .650, does depending on him for points during the regular season present an achilles heel in the playoffs?

      I’m interested to see how he fares in Toronto, since they don’t have a transcendent scorer/floor spacer.

    59. DRed

      This argument started because THCJ said that Novak could in some seasons be “better” than Carmelo in some seasons. I don’t think better is a particularly apt term, because people equate that to a sort of general basketball skill. Novak’s really not a skilled basketball player-he’s just a fantastic shooter. What I’m asking is if it’s possible for a player like Novak to be more valuable to a team than a much more well rounded player. I don’t think the playoffs are relevant to my question.

    60. massive

      A player like Novak? No. Novak is an opportunist of a basketball player in that he only capitalizes when the offense provides him with a wide open look.

      A one trick pony wouldn’t be more valuable than Carmelo Anthony. In Novak’s case, his one trick is 3 point shooting, but he’s quite literally useless in every other facet of the game. Say a one trick pony like maybe a Ben Wallace minus the defense or Tony Allen. One is great at only rebounding and the other is great at only defense. That is not a player you want on your team over Carmelo Anthony, who is one of the game’s best scorers (especially when not playing on a bum knee or with a torn labrum), and at least average at everything else except for assists. There is no way a one trick pony can be more valuable than a well rounded player because basketball is not a sport where you’re allowed to only do one thing. Everybody does everything; score, rebound, pass, and defend. You can’t be terrible at everything but one and expect to be considered valuable by people who study the game’s statistics.

    61. flossy

      Z-man: If you adjust for salary, then you could make the argument that, say, if Oden panned out for Miami, Novak would be more valuable dollar for dollar than Melo for that team. But it is still a really bad comparison, and one that reveals the fatal flaws of metrics like WP48.

        

      Every single GM in the league aside from maybe in Miami, OKC and Houston, would take Carmelo Anthony on a max contract over Novak at the league minimum, if given the opportunity to choose one or the other. Every single one, no question.

    62. Glew

      DRed:
      This argument started because THCJ said that Novak could in some seasons be “better” than Carmelo in some seasons.I don’t think better is a particularly apt term, because people equate that to a sort of general basketball skill.Novak’s really not a skilled basketball player-he’s just a fantastic shooter.What I’m asking is if it’s possible for a player like Novak to be more valuable to a team than a much more well rounded player.I don’t think the playoffs are relevant to my question.

      Honestly, the difference between Novak and Dave Hopla (knicks shooting coach) is that Novak is 6’10 and much younger. Hopla is a better spot up shooter than him and neither have any other NBA level skills. If Novak was as short as Hopla which is probably like 5’10 to 6′ he doesn’t sniff the NBA.

    63. Owen

      I would take Novak on a minimum salary over Melo on a max contract. But that’s only because signing Melo to a max deal is a terrible idea. Novak is irrelevant to the question.

      flossy: Every single GM in the league aside from maybe in Miami, OKC and Houston, would take Carmelo Anthony on a max contract over Novak at the league minimum, if given the opportunity to choose one or the other.Every single one, no question.

    64. Z-man

      Owen:
      I would take Novak on a minimum salary over Melo on a max contract. But that’s only because signing Melo to a max deal is a terrible idea. Novak is irrelevant to the question.

      This is a fair response, although I would vehemently disagree.

    65. flossy

      Owen:
      I would take Novak on a minimum salary over Melo on a max contract. But that’s only because signing Melo to a max deal is a terrible idea. Novak is irrelevant to the question.

      That’s why you’re not paid to manage a pro basketball team.

    66. Owen

      Flossy, deep down, you would rather have me running the Knicks than CAA, which is running it right now. I know it. I at least would care more about winning a championship than maximizing the bottom line.

      It would be interesting to know how many NBA gm’s would be excited to sign Melo to a max contract. Maybe Jim Buss. I really hope so. The best possible thing that could happen to the Knicks is for Melo to go the Lakers and win 43 games there for the next four seasons. ‘

      flossy: That’s why you’re not paid to manage a pro basketball team.

    67. Frank

      Owen:
      I would take Novak on a minimum salary over Melo on a max contract. But that’s only because signing Melo to a max deal is a terrible idea. Novak is irrelevant to the question.

      flossy: That’s why you’re not paid to manage a pro basketball team.

      I’m a Melo supporter/fan, but I tend to agree with Owen on this one if the “max” we’re talking about is the 5 year $129MM kind. Melo’s a great player, but he’s not someone who lifts mediocre talent to transcendent levels. There’s only 1 player like that in the NBA right now and that guy is playing in Miami. You put Lebron on a team with 1 or 2 other adequate players, fill in the rest of spots with replacement level specialists, and you’d still be in the NBA finals. Given the constraints of the CBA, LBJ is the only guy that you can pay that kind of money to and still hope to be a true contender.

      JonKnicksFan on twitter said it right:

      “I wonder if Melo realizes that there’s no realistic destination for him that can max him out and win a title….It’s a function of the new CBA. You can have all the money or you can win. It’s going to be near impossible to have both.”

      Even in Miami they were able to do this because they formed under the old CBA. OKC shipped Harden out because of all the luxury tax considerations.

      Mills and Dolan and co. have a tough job convincing him to take less $ — I don’t usually listen to Stephen A but I do believe he is tied into CAA and so will listen to him about the Knicks — and what he said is that Melo is about the money. He’s also about winning, but he’s about the $. If he holds out for the max, we better not hear anything “anonymously” from his circle about how he doesn’t have enough talent around him going forward.

    68. Frank

      Melo needs to look at the teams in the conference finals last year and realize – there’s not a SINGLE max player on any of those teams. Actually Hibbert I guess is technically a max but Melo made 50% (!) more than Hibbert did this past year. Duncan, Parker, and maybe Ginobili all took less than they could have gotten on the open market. LBJ/Wade/Bosh all took (slightly) less than they could have gotten. And GSW has all non-max players, including an amazing bargain on Curry — which allowed them to shuffle things around to get Bogut AND Iguodala in the last 2 years.

      At the end of the day, Melo has to understand he can win or get maxed. Not both. If he’s smart, good, and lucky, he can leverage taking less salary $ into even more $ down the line. He’s already known widely as a selfish player (whether true or not) – if he took even a Pierce-like discount in the $15-18MM/year range he could possibly dispel that image for good regardless of how many midrange pullups he takes.

    69. er

      Owen:
      The best possible thing that could happen to the Knicks is for Melo to go the Lakers and win 43 games there for the next four seasons. ‘

      What kind of salty comment is that? If melo went to the lakers they can sign one other max guy regardless, so i doubt they would win 43 games no matter how bad you think melo is

    70. thenamestsam

      er: What kind of salty comment is that? If melo went to the lakers they can sign one other max guy regardless, so i doubt they would win 43 games no matter how bad you think melo is

      Also it bears mentioning that this team wasn’t too far from the Eastern Conference Finals last year. Seriously, the best thing you can imagine for this team in the next few years is another team’s failures? Not winning the division? Not winning playoff series? Not going on a dream run to the finals? Seriously, the very best thing is that we lose our best player and he goes on to play for another team mostly unsuccessfully? That’s the peak in your eyes? That’s seriously a bummer.

    71. er

      thenamestsam: Also it bears mentioning that this team wasn’t too far from the Eastern Conference Finals last year. Seriously, the best thing you can imagine for this team in the next few years is another team’s failures? Not winning the division? Not winning playoff series? Not going on a dream run to the finals? Seriously, the very best thing is that we lose our best player and he goes on to play for another team mostly unsuccessfully? That’s the peak in your eyes? That’s seriously a bummer.

      lol trueeee

    72. DRed

      thenamestsam: Also it bears mentioning that this team wasn’t too far from the Eastern Conference Finals last year. Seriously, the best thing you can imagine for this team in the next few years is another team’s failures? Not winning the division? Not winning playoff series? Not going on a dream run to the finals? Seriously, the very best thing is that we lose our best player and he goes on to play for another team mostly unsuccessfully? That’s the peak in your eyes? That’s seriously a bummer.

      Well, the idea is that Carmelo is not actually our best player, and letting him walk rather than massively overpaying for a guy whose best days are behind him will allow the Knicks to be more competitive and more likely to win a championship.

    73. er

      DRed: Well, the idea is that Carmelo is not actually our best player, and letting him walk rather than massively overpaying for a guy whose best days are behind him will allow the Knicks to be more competitive and more likely to win a championship.

      lol. How do you know his best days are behind him and who is the best player on the Knicks?

    74. DRed

      er: lol. How do you know his best days are behind him and who is the best player on the Knicks?

      Because he’s 29. I don’t know that his best days are behind him, but generally athletes don’t get better after they turn 30. And yes, there is no guarantee that we would replace Carmelo with someone better, but it would be smarter to try do that rather than signing up for an expensive decline.

    75. er

      DRed: Because he’s 29.I don’t know that his best days are behind him, but generally athletes don’t get better after they turn 30.

      True but i think melos game does not rely on athleticism as much as other pf/sf in the league. His game should age fine. Also nash won a few mvps after 30 kobe was great after 30, same as duncan and KG. I could go on….. My point is that this isnt the NFL, the wear and tear isnt as predictable as football. And if you look at the stats melo has gotten better every year in NY so..

    76. DRed

      er: True but i think melos game does not rely on athleticism as much as other pf/sf in the league. His game should age fine. Also nash won a few mvps after 30 kobe was great after 30, same as duncan and KG. I could go on….. My point is that this isnt the NFL, the wear and tear isnt as predictable as football. And if you look at the stats melo has gotten better every year in NY so..

      . . .therefore he will continue to get better every year he’s in NY?

    77. thenamestsam

      My whole point is that if in your mind the best thing that can happen to the Knicks has anything to do with players switching teams and its impact on the 2016 Lakers, you might be missing the forest for the trees here, team-fandom wise.

    78. er

      DRed: . . .therefore he will continue to get better every year he’s in NY?

      Nope never said that. You sir are the one making declarative statements.

    79. Frank

      Athletically there’s no doubt that Melo’s best days are probably behind him — that said, he’s certainly in better shape than he has been in the past, which might blunt that decline significantly. In addition, Melo HAS changed his game some despite his comments about how he’s not going to change much– mostly in that he HAS decreased his # of midrange jumpers and increased his 3 point shooting frequency and percentage (he’s shooting ~300% more 3′s then he was during his “athletic prime” in Denver). If Steve Mills can be believed in what he says about wanting to bring the Knicks more into the “advanced stats” era, perhaps Melo can be convinced to continue that shift. He doesn’t have to be a better athlete to increase his 3PA/36 from 6.7 to 7.7 and decrease his pull-up J’s from 18.

      The other thing about Melo – and maybe Ruru can comment on this — I think he suffers from the Kobe mentality that he thinks even a bad shot by him has a better chance of going in than an ok shot by a bad offensive player — which is why he plays so well on Olympic teams. When he has very good offensive players around him, he’s more than willing to pass the ball. But when JR can’t throw the ball in the ocean, Kidd is afraid to shoot the ball, Landry Fields isn’t even shooting the ball on an arc to get over the front of the rim, etc., Melo takes it on himself to take all the shots. There’s no question this team has more offensive talent than any roster we’ve had since he’s been here. So hopefully he passes a little more this year.

    80. DRed

      “There’s no question this team has more offensive talent than any roster we’ve had since he’s been here.”

      Really? We had a terrific offense last season. And Carmelo had one of his best offensive seasons. Do you think he can replicate that this year without elite shot makers like Novak and Copeland giving him the spacing he needs to operate?

    81. Hubert

      ephus: But there is no conceivable circumstances where ‘Melo stays and the Knicks have the salary cap room to bring in another free agent this summer.

      I’m sorry, Ephus, I don’t agree.

      Tyson Chandler with one year, $14 million owed can conceivably be traded next summer to a team with cap room whereby we don’t have to take back salary. Heck you can do a three way trade today in which LAC get Chandler, we take back Jordan and a pick, flip Jordan to Boston for the expiring salary of Kris Humphries.

      JR Smith with two years, $11 million owed can conceivably be traded to a team under the cap next summer.

      MWP can conceivably be traded next summer. (We still have our $3 million available. Do you think it’s inconceivable that one owner in the NBA might take $3 million from us to pay MWP $1.6 million?)

      If Ray Felton can’t be traded, we can reduce his cap figure to $1.5 million using the stretch provision (he is eligible). Let’s assume the worst possible outcome.

      There are a ton of possibilities with Andrea Bargnani. He could could play very well this year and opt out. He could be very stupid and pull a Kirielenko. In all probability, though, he will be mediocre and realize he’s not going to earn $11.5mm ever again. In which case we offer him 3 years, $30 million, in which he makes only $9 million this year. Heck we could probably do even better than that. But lets assume the worst possible outcome and he opts in.

      So if Melo opts out and signs for $20mm (assuming the worst case scenarios on Felton & AB):

      Barngani – $11.5mm
      Shumpert – $2.7mm
      Prigioni – $1.6mm
      Felton – $1.5mm
      Hardaway – $1.25mm
      Cap holds on 6 empty roster spots – $2.9mm

      Total – $18.55mm, with a $58/59mm cap. That gives you $40mm to sign two stars.

      So there is reason to root for the Amar’e miracle.

    82. Hubert

      Hubert:

      So if Melo opts out and signs for $20mm (assuming the worst case scenarios on Felton & AB):

      Barngani – $11.5mm
      Shumpert – $2.7mm
      Prigioni – $1.6mm
      Felton – $1.5mm
      Hardaway – $1.25mm
      Cap holds on 6 empty roster spots – $2.9mm

      Total – $18.55mm, with a $58/59mm cap.That gives you $40mm to sign two stars.

      Sorry, it should read like this:

      So if Melo opts out and signs for $20mm (assuming the worst case scenarios on Felton & AB):

      Anthony – $20mm
      Barngani – $11.5mm
      Shumpert – $2.7mm
      Prigioni – $1.6mm
      Felton – $1.5mm
      Hardaway – $1.25mm
      Cap holds on 6 empty roster spots – $2.9mm

      Total – $38.55mm, with a $58/59mm cap. That gives you $20mm to sign another stars.

    83. Brian Cronin

      Frank, while you’re absolutely right about Melo really needing to take a significant pay cut (at least $5 million a year) for the Knicks to be competitive for a Finals with a re-signed Melo, I think it is important (well, kind of important at least) to note that Melo has never actually complained about the talent around him when a Knick. Lots of other players in his situation have been hypocrites in exactly the way you’d expect (insist on getting the most money possible and then complain about the team can’t get talent to surround you), but Melo has yet to do that. He’s just been pretty darn frank about wanting the most money possible.

    84. Brian Cronin

      And Hubert, while I agree with you that “inconceivable” is not the right way to describe your plan, as yes, you could conceive some situations where it might actually happen, I’d put the odds at less than 5% that you could actually dump all those guys just for cap space.

    85. Frank

      Brian Cronin:
      Frank, while you’re absolutely right about Melo really needing to take a significant pay cut (at least $5 million a year) for the Knicks to be competitive for a Finals with a re-signed Melo, I think it is important (well, kind of important at least) to note that Melo has never actually complained about the talent around him when a Knick. Lots of other players in his situation have been hypocrites in exactly the way you’d expect (insist on getting the most money possible and then complain about the team can’t get talent to surround you), but Melo has yet to do that. He’s just been pretty darn frank about wanting the most money possible.

      There have been rumors about him wanting more offensive players around him, wanting Rondo, etc. None of this has come directly from his mouth of course, but from people “close to him”. I’m not really sure what to make of it — I hate “unnamed sources” as much as anyone, but I tend to think where there’s smoke there’s probably a little fire.

    86. Hubert

      Brian Cronin:
      And Hubert, while I agree with you that “inconceivable” is not the right way to describe your plan, as yes, you could conceive some situations where it might actually happen, I’d put the odds at less than 5% that you could actually dump all those guys just for cap space.

      I need to believe in something other than Melo opting out and getting a max contract that ruins us for the next 5 years.

    87. ephus

      Brian Cronin: I’d put the odds at less than 5% that you could actually dump all those guys just for cap space.

      I would put the odds at below .005%. Which is why I said there was no “conceivable circumstances” in which the Knicks could open salary cap room this summer, even if they got the Wizards to take STAT for expirings (which is never going to happen).

      1. No team on the planet is trading for JR Smith without sending back salary. I cannot see a team trading for JR Smith, period. Because an unhappy JR Smith is a cancer on a team.

      2. Tyson Chandler has too large of a contract to be taken in by any team without sending back salary, even Philadelphia (which will have to add salary during the course of the season to avoid the 90% floor). Likewise, there would be no landing spot for DeAndre Jordan (including Boston) without taking back salary. The cap just will not allow it.

    88. Hubert

      ephus: I would put the odds at below .005%.Which is why I said there was no “conceivable circumstances” in which the Knicks could open salary cap room this summer, even if they got the Wizards to take STAT for expirings (which is never going to happen).

      1.No team on the planet is trading for JR Smith without sending back salary.I cannot see a team trading for JR Smith, period. Because an unhappy JR Smith is a cancer on a team.

      2. Tyson Chandler has too large of a contract to be taken in by any team without sending back salary, even Philadelphia (which will have to add salary during the course of the season to avoid the 90% floor).Likewise, there would be no landing spot for DeAndre Jordan (including Boston) without taking back salary.The cap just will not allow it.

      Why do you assume every GM is so smart?

      I feel like Michael Jordan would bend over backwards to get JR Smith on a 2 year, $11mm in exchange for a 2nd round draft pick. Especially with his team under the salary floor, as they are currently projected to be. What makes you think he would demand that we take back salary? Because whatever we take back, he’d have to go spend on someone else just to make the floor.

      The Clippers would trade Jordan for Chandler in less than the time it took us to make the offer, and I think they would have to give us some picks to compensate for the fact that we’re giving them the better player for their title run.

      Boston is actually trying to use Humphries’ expiring to get a better player back. And they have been trying to acquire DeAndre Jordan. I am pretty confident they would trade Humphries expiring contract for DeAndre Jordan.

      And I think every single owner in the NBA would take MWP making $1.6 a one year deal without forcing us to take back salary if we gave them $3 million.

    89. Hubert

      The real reason my dream scenario is inconceivable is the reason Donnie Walsh (the KB poster) put forth yesterday: even if we lined all those trades up, Dolan wouldn’t be willing to punt on our chances of being a second round playoff team this year in order to make it happen.

    90. BigBlueAL

      Hey Brian, I saw on Twitter Robert RT a legends revealed article you just wrote about Eckersley and the walk-off term. I clicked on the link but it said page not found.

      Can you post a proper link to it?? Would love to read it, i love baseball urban legends articles lol.

    91. Hubert

      Brian Cronin:
      So you DO think it is inconceivable then?

      I think any good thing happening to this franchise while Dolan is in charge is kind of inconceivable.

      But I think that line of thinking is making us think all our assets are unmovable. They’re not. JR is not Allan Houston making $20 million. Tyson Chandler’s contract is not Eddy Curry’s. We can move these guys if we want to. A .005% chance of being able to trade Chandler and JR without taking garbage back? I don’t understand that thinking.

      The Amar’e part is the one that has a .005% chance of happening, but I’m holding out hope.

    92. mokers

      I’ve said before, I think Melo will opt out and return with the knicks. The level he returns for is going to be set the next 5-6 years for the franchise. While I am a huge Melo fan, I wouldn’t understand if the Knicks turned him down if he asks for Kobe money and that is the only scenario I see the Knicks ever trading their expiring contracts. It would be much easier to trade the expiring Bargs, Chandler and Stoudamire because hopefully you have a 2013-2014 season where they have answered questions about health/effectiveness that a team that is a piece or two away and has some draft picks will be willing to give up on them.

      Second, Vegas has the current team projected to about 50 wins. Even if they underachieve and only play .500 ball or so during the regular season, this team would be a tough matchup for the 3 or 4 seed and with an injury to the Nets, Pacers or Bulls and/or a little luck, they could make it to the ECF.

      Call me crazy, but I would much prefer scenario two because I think it should be a decent team to watch this year.

      Now if Melo signs for a Paul Pierce money (say 18 million), I say you continue to roll with what you have, even if you have limited flexibility, and then load up with all of your free cap space in 2015.

      That being said, Dolan just finished a $1 billion renovation of MSG. Even if he is kicked out in 10 years to rebuild the station below it, he will still make out relatively well as long as the MSG company is making money. I just don’t think he is going to going to start hoarding draft picks while the team is winning games and looks to be fairly sound in the long-term with luxury tax (barring any crazy melo contact of course).

    93. ephus

      There is a reason why expiring contracts are worth less than they used to be: the new CBA. Under the old CBA, a team could be saddled with many five year contracts and sometimes a six year contract. Getting out from under two or three years of those contracts was worth a lot.

      Now, virtually every player has at most a four year contract. Very few teams are ready to give up on a player during year one of a contract, so we are ordinarily talking about try to move three years (or fewer) of a bad contract. When you subtract out the expiring year that comes in, most times a team can only move two years (or one year) of bad contract.

      On the MSG situation, I will bet all comers that the Knicks will play the 2024-25 season in the MSG currently sitting atop Pennsylvania Station. Politicians have only recently started to develop the backbone to resist calls to subsidize new stadium construction. I cannot imagine the NYC City Council and Mayor having the cajones to force the demolition of the current MSG.

    94. Brian Cronin

      Hey Brian, I saw on Twitter Robert RT a legends revealed article you just wrote about Eckersley and the walk-off term. I clicked on the link but it said page not found.

      Can you post a proper link to it?? Would love to read it, i love baseball urban legends articles lol.

      Huh. That’s odd. I think what Robert re-tweeted was the correct link. Here it is again, though:

      http://legendsrevealed.com/sports/2013/10/23/did-dennis-eckersley-coin-the-term-walk-off-the-same-year-he-gave-up-kirk-gibsons-legendary-walk-off-home-run-in-the-world-series/

    95. BigBlueAL

      Brian Cronin: Huh. That’s odd. I think what Robert re-tweeted was the correct link. Here it is again, though:

      http://legendsrevealed.com/sports/2013/10/23/did-dennis-eckersley-coin-the-term-walk-off-the-same-year-he-gave-up-kirk-gibsons-legendary-walk-off-home-run-in-the-world-series/

      Eck is pretty fun to listen to when he is broadcasting a game. Pretty amazing though how long it took for the term walk-off to really get popular. I dont remember hearing it regularly at all until what, maybe 10 years ago or so??

      Anyway I know this is Knickerblogger so pardon the baseball talk but at this point all this speculation about next summer is meaningless to me right now, all I want is for next week to arrive and real games to begin. Im very much looking forward to this season.

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