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Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 27 2012)

  • [New York Post] Melo keys big win, hurts groin (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:49:36 -0500)
    Not again!
    Carmelo Anthony led the Knicks to an impressive win last night in a critical game against the Bucks, but also re-injured his right groin, joining teammates Amar’e Stoudemire and Jeremy Lin as health concerns.
    Anthony poured in 28 points and racked up 12 rebounds â?? both game highs…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Stoudemire out indefinitely with lower back injury (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:55:51 -0500)
    In a potentially season-changing blow for Amar’e Stoudemire and the Knicks, the club announced yesterday the star forward is out with a bulging disk in his lower back and that his return date is unknown.
    Stoudemire left Saturday’s game against Detroit with lower back soreness and had an…

  • [New York Post] Stoudemire’s loss shouldn’t doom Knicks’ season (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 01:32:06 -0500)
    The news about Amar’e Stoudemire’s back isn’t good. It can’t be anytime the words “bulging diskâ? and “out indefinitelyâ? are used in the same statement.
    Interim Knicks coach Mike Woodson is holding out hope Stoudemire won’t be gone long, but mentioned the possibility of second…

  • [New York Post] Sore knee puts halt to Linsanity (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 00:58:42 -0500)
    Linsanity took last night off, as Jeremy Lin’s sore left knee forced him to sit out the Knicks’ 89-80 victory over the Bucks. Lin, who sat out the final quarter-plus of Saturday’s win over the Pistons, last night said he is “day to day,â? and is unsure if…

  • [New York Daily News] Crushing loss of Amar’e tests Knicks’ mettle (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 05:40:57 GMT)
    It was the worst news at the worst time for the Knicks, who had experienced a renaissance under interim coach Mike Woodson. Amar’e Stoudemire is out indefinitely with a bulging disc in his lower back.

  • [New York Daily News] Wounded Knicks Buck up against Milwaukee (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:48:22 GMT)
    The Knicks, for better or worse, are Carmelo Anthony’s team. With Amar’e Stoudemire sidelined indefinitely and Jeremy Lin also out with an injury, the Knicks needed Anthony more than ever Monday night.

  • [New York Daily News] Amar’e out indefinitely with bulging back disc (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:52:42 GMT)
    Amar’e Stoudemire didn’t attend the Knicks’ shoot-around Monday morning, and he won’t be joining the team any time soon. Stoudemire has a bulging back disc and will be out of the Knicks’ lineup indefinitely.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Without STAT, Woodson says D is difference (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:05:09 EDT)
    NEW YORK — Since Mike Woodson replaced Mike D’Antoni on March 14, the Knicks have been averaging just below 100 points per game — 99.4 to be exact.
    That point total has enabled the Knicks to stay in front on the scoreboard in what has been a down scoring season — across the board in the NBA due to the condensed schedule — while also putting a clamp on opponents the Woodson way.
    Now, the Knicks need to find a way to make up 17.6 points per game because star power forward Amare Stoudemire is out indefinitely with a bulging disk in his back.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Carmelo day to day with groin injury (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:01:40 EDT)
    Knicks forward Carmelo Anthony tweaked his groin in the third quarter of Monday night’s 89-80 win over the Milwaukee Bucks. He will be re-evaluated on Tuesday morning and hopes to be available for Wednesday’s home game against the Orlando Magic.
    “I don’t think it’s too bad, I just want to take it day by day,” Anthony said. “Tomorrow, (I’ll) get re-evaluated and see what happens from there.”
    Anthony tweaked the injury during a spin move late in the third quarter.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Stoudemire (back) out 'indefinitely' (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 01:58:43 EDT)
    New York Knicks forward Amare Stoudemire is out “indefinitely” after an MRI revealed a bulging disk in his lower back, the team announced.
    He missed Monday’s game against the Milwaukee Bucks. Point guard Jeremy Lin was also out with a sore right knee. He is officially listed as day to day.
    The team said that Stoudemire will undergo nonsurgical treatment for the back injury and will treat it with rehabilitation. But coach Mike Woodson did not rule out the possibility that Stoudemire could need surgery in the future.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Melo: 'It's time to step my game up' (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 01:38:54 EDT)
    It’s a simple equation, really: Less Amare equals more Carmelo for the Knicks.
    That’s the scenario New York is facing right now with Amare Stoudemire out due to a back injury.
    And if the bulging disk in Stoudemire’s back forces him out for an extended period of time, that’s the scenario the Knicks will face for the rest of the season.

    “A situation like this requires me to step my game up a little bit more, take it up a notch,” Anthony said.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Sans Lin, Davis finally gets first start (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 01:01:12 EDT)
    NEW YORK – When Baron Davis signed with the Knicks in December, he instantly was stamped as the team’s next savior. That was before Jeremy Lin, when Davis was destined for the starting job whenever he could recover from the herniated disk in his back.
    Davis’ timetable, however, was very different from the one in the minds of those who hung their hopes on his return.
    “I was just happy to get back on the court,” Davis said.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Jeremy Lin is New York's Most Beloved (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 00:21:04 EDT)
    Debby Wong/US PresswireWho is the most beloved sports figure in the Big Apple? The votes are in — and it’s overwhelmingly Jeremy Lin, who mauled Mariano Rivera in the final.The Linsanity craze may have come to an end, but in the eyes of New York sports fans, Jeremy Lin is still No. 1.
    The New York Knicks point guard captured 70 percent of the vote and upset New York Yankees future Hall of Fame closer Mariano Rivera in the Finals to take home the title of the Big Apple’s Most Beloved.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 89, Bucks 80: Knicks Beat Milwaukee Bucks for 7th Win in 8 Games (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:59:31 GMT)
    After announcing that Amar’e Stoudemire would be out indefinitely with a bulging disk in his lower back, the Knicks gave Coach Mike Woodson his seventh victory in eight games.

  • [New York Times] Bucks, Despite Loss to Knicks, Are Threat in N.B.A. Playoff Race (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 06:25:08 GMT)
    Monday’s loss to the Knicks was not a death knell for Milwaukee, which plays eight teams currently not in playoff positions, and has 8 of its final 17 games at home.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Pacers Hand Heat Another Big Defeat (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 06:31:05 GMT)
    The Heat lost by double digits in back-to-back games for the first time this season and are running out of time to catch the Bulls for the best record in the Eastern Conference.

  • [New York Times] Paul Haunts Ex-Mates as Clippers Top Hornets 97-85 (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 05:29:10 GMT)
    Chris Paul had 25 points and 10 assists against his former team, leading the Los Angeles Clippers to a 97-85 win over the New Orleans Hornets on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Patterson Leads Rockets Over Kings 113-106 in OT (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:38:32 GMT)
    Patrick Patterson scored a career-high 24 points and Earl Boykins hit four free throws for Houston late in overtime to lead the Rockets to a 113-106 win over the Sacramento Kings on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Lawson Scores 27, Helps Nuggets Beat Bulls 108-91 (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 03:07:54 GMT)
    Ty Lawson tied a season high with 27 points, Arron Afflalo added 22 and the Denver Nuggets shot 50 percent Monday night to beat the Chicago Bulls 108-91.

  • [New York Times] Knicks Shake Off Injury Bug to Beat Bucks 89-80 (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:31:15 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony scored 28 points, delivering his highest total in two months without the injured Amare Stoudemire and Jeremy Lin, and the New York Knicks beat the Milwaukee Bucks 89-80 on Monday night to increase their lead for the final Eastern Conference playoff berth.

  • [New York Times] Pierce Scores 36 as Celtics Beat Bobcats 102-95 (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:11:09 GMT)
    Paul Pierce scored a season-high 36 points and the Boston Celtics held on to beat the Charlotte Bobcats 102-95 Monday night to move into a first-place tie with Philadelphia 76ers in the Atlantic Division.

  • [New York Times] Stuckey’s Late Jumper Lifts Pistons Over Wizards (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:11:06 GMT)
    Rodney Stuckey scored half of his 24 points in the fourth quarter, including the winning 20-foot jumper with 0.2 seconds left, and the offensively-challenged Detroit Pistons ended a five-game losing streak by erasing a 13-point deficit to beat the Washington Wizards 79-77 Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Millsap Double-Double Leads Weary Jazz Over Nets (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:03:28 GMT)
    Paul Millsap had 24 points and 13 rebounds and the Utah Jazz shook off the weariness from their four-overtime loss 24 hours earlier to beat the New Jersey Nets 105-84 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Granger Scores 25 as Pacers Beat Heat 105-90 (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 02:31:17 GMT)
    Danny Granger scored 25 points to help the Indiana Pacers beat the Miami Heat 105-90 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Anderson Makes 8 3′s, Magic Rout Raptors, 117-101 (Tue, 27 Mar 2012 01:35:16 GMT)
    Ryan Anderson made a career-best eight 3-pointers and finished with 28 points to help the Orlando Magic win their third straight game Monday night, beating the Toronto Raptors 117-101.

  • 157 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 27 2012)

    1. coolzz

      Jeremy Lin is New York’s Most Beloved!!!
      Wow, Awesome!!
      NY city finally loves Basketball.

    2. Matt Smith

      Was at the game last night, quick impressions:

      -I really overestimated Baron’s bball IQ. I guess I had the misconception that he was more of a pure pg than a combo guard, but when he’s off it’s really obvious that he’s more one-dimensional than what we need.

      -Fields just ain’t great. I love the guy for his attitude and hustle. I wouldn’t have noticed had this lineup been so deprived for offensive firepower. But he’s a mediocre defender who makes really poor decisions when he tries passing, he holds the ball too much beyond the arc, he is only a decent (at best) slasher, and it seems like he’s lost his rebounding touch from last year. Shumpert can fill his role and be a much better defender.

      -There was a stretch where he just couldn’t hit. We had PLENTY of open looks throughout the game, but no one could connect between JR, Fields, and Baron. It was so bad that Baron had a WIDE open three and he elected not to take it (which I’d count as a smart decision considering how off he was).

      -Chandler’s contributions to this team can’t be lauded enough. I’m not sure if these count as rebounds, but so many of our second-chance points came from when he used his smart positioning and height advantage to swat the ball backwards so our guards could get it.

      Overall though, ugly game. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the win, but neither team ‘wanted it’ and it showed.

    3. drewbreez

      Chandler’s contributions to this team can’t be lauded enough. I’m not sure if these count as rebounds, but so many of our second-chance points came from when he used his smart positioning and height advantage to swat the ball backwards so our guards could get it.

      Amen. Can’t for the life of me understand why someone was criticizing this tactic on the thread last night? Bygones… But we must wonder if the injuries to Amar’e and Jeffries will put more wear on Chandler heading into the playoff run. Imagine this team further depleted of defense and without two of its best PnR players. Gulp.

    4. d-mar

      Matt Smith:

      Overall though, ugly game. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the win, but neither team ‘wanted it’ and it showed.

      It looked to me like the Knicks wanted it more than the Bucks, which is really odd considering Milwaukee should be the more desperate team. Something is going on with the Bucks, Ellis looked like he’d rather not be there, and even the usually manic Skiles looked disengaged and aloof . Pretty strange for a team that is on the verge of falling out of the playoff picture.

    5. Frank

      Hmmm. Tommy Dee at theknicksblog says his sources say Amare will only be out a week. I sure hope he’s right and everyone else is wrong.

    6. thenamestsam

      d-mar: It looked to me like the Knicks wanted it more than the Bucks, which is really odd considering Milwaukee should be the more desperate team. Something is going on with the Bucks, Ellis looked like he’d rather not be there, and even the usually manic Skiles looked disengaged and aloof . Pretty strange for a team that is on the verge of falling out of the playoff picture.

      I think they’re in a pretty tough spot. We’ve all seen 1st hand this year how tough it can be to adapt styles on the fly during a season, and the difficulties that can arise when the coach and the players aren’t on the same wavelength. The Bucks have both those problems in spades.

      An Ellis/Jennings backcourt is a dubious proposition to begin with, but to try to work it out with less than 6 weeks to go in the season and no practice time is a brutal proposition. Last year this was a grind it out, slow it down team. Last in the NBA in offense I think the announcers said last night. Now all of the sudden they’re an uptempo team based around two shoot first guards.

      And on top of the obvious challenges of adapting during this schedule, they’re trying to do it with a coach who is not known for playing that way at all. Skiles was a past-first PG and is a defensive minded hard-ass coach. How does he feel during a game like last night when his guards combine for 8-36 from the field?

      Basically they’re like the Knicks from a few weeks ago, except with less talent and less time to turn it around. I think we buried them last night.

    7. Matt Smith

      d-mar: It looked to me like the Knicks wanted it more than the Bucks, which is really odd considering Milwaukee should be the more desperate team. Something is going on with the Bucks, Ellis looked like he’d rather not be there, and even the usually manic Skiles looked disengaged and aloof . Pretty strange for a team that is on the verge of falling out of the playoff picture.

      You’re right, I might’ve been a bit unfair to the Knicks saying we didn’t want it. I probably would’ve had a lot different judgements if, say, half of their open shots fell. And I agree… at this point, I’d be more quick to attribute their lackluster offense to poor play on their part rather than superior D on ours.

      On another note, am I the only one who wants Jordan to get just a wee bit of burn? I’ve been saying this since mid-season (last time Jeffries was out), but I think he could be halfway decent. I know he gets made fun of in the post-game wraps every time he sees a garbage-time appearance, but I distinctly remember more than a couple of people saying we should look as our ANSWER for the starting center position. You can’t teach 7’1”, and if Jorts isn’t making his three/spacing the floor, I’d rather give the big guy a chance.

    8. New Guy

      I’m sure I can’t be the only person on here with a bugling disc in his lower lumbar. just from my own experience: it can last weeks, or go away in days. No one has any clue what’s going on with Amar’e, basically. The whole ‘he went to Miami to see a specialist’ is not really a big deal. if the specialist said he needed surgery, then it would be an issue! but that’s just standard procedure. as is using the word “indefinitely”. a couple weeks ago my disc popped out. I was bed-ridden for two days. I was up riding my bike and playing basketball 5 days later. I’m also 34 and no one’s idea of an athlete.

      the shitty thing is can always come back, and something as simple as dunking during warmups in game 2 of a playoff series can make it pop out. But it can go away real easy, so don’t write the 2012 season off just yet.

    9. JK47

      The Knicks now rank 4th overall in defensive rating, having now passed the Miami Heat. Unbelievable.

    10. jon abbey

      drewbreez: Amen. Can’t for the life of me understand why someone was criticizing this tactic on the thread last night?

      someone criticized that? I missed that, but Chandler has been doing that for years, he and Chris Paul had it down to a science in NO.

      I thought it was funny yesterday when he tipped out a bad alley oop attempt, I’ve never seen that before.

    11. TelegraphedPass

      JK47: The Knicks now rank 4th overall in defensive rating, having now passed the Miami Heat. Unbelievable.

      Can you link the evidence for that? Hoopdata is only accurate as of the 24th and Hollinger’s team stats list NY at 5th just behind Miami.

    12. massive

      We play Orlando tomorrow, right? I think last year’s team was about as talented as this year’s team without Lin, Jeffries, and Stat, and we beat them behind Carmelo’s late game heroics, behind a coach that really couldn’t motivate him. I guess you can argue that Orlando is better due to Ryan Anderson’s emergence, but I think Tyson matches up well against Dwight Howard. Behind our great defense, I think we can pull it out against Orlando. If we have Lin, Melo and Tyson Chandler, then I’m pretty confident about tomorrow.

    13. Doug

      jon abbey: I thought it was funny yesterday when he tipped out a bad alley oop attempt, I’ve never seen that before.

      yeah it was like Tyson was all “NO! DON’T LIKE IT! TRY AGAIN.”

    14. TelegraphedPass

      @14 Thanks! That’s really impressive, and a good sign moving forward. I wonder how losing Amar’e will affect all this.

    15. Frank

      massive: http://www.basketball-reference.com/pi/shareit/rex69

      The highlighted column. For some strange reason, it’s numbered from 2-31, which is the same as 1-30 technically.

      Whatever – just the idea that we’re being mentioned in the same breath as Miami defensively is proof positive that Tyson Chandler is amazing, and that Woodson may be a pretty good defensive coach despite never having a great defense in Atlanta. Seriously, we are in spitting distance of Chicago’s defensive efficiency! Some of this may be strength of schedule related, but it’s still impressive.

    16. DS

      Let’s review Tyson Chandler’s career:

      Second “most important” player on the court last night: Win
      Second “most important” player during Linsanity: 7 straight wins
      Second “most important” player on Dallas last year: championship
      Second “most important” player in New Orleans: pushed the 2008 Spurs to 7 games.

    17. Frank

      DS:
      Let’s review Tyson Chandler’s career:

      Second “most important” player on the court last night: Win
      Second “most important” player during Linsanity: 7 straight wins
      Second “most important” player on Dallas last year: championship
      Second “most important” player in New Orleans: pushed the 2008 Spurs to 7 games.

      IMHO Chandler is the 2nd best center in the NBA. You can say whatever you want about Bynum, but the fact that this team was in the bottom 3rd of the league in defense last year with pretty much the same personnel (minus Shump) and now is a top 5 defense is pretty amazing. If he doesn’t make at least All-NBA 3rd team it will be a travesty. Last night was a perfect example – 9 rebounds, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 charge, but nowhere in the stat sheet are the tip-outs, help defense (like his awesome close-out on Dunleavy’s 3 at the top of the circle), and making the basket area a no-fly zone for the Bucks.

    18. er

      I totally believe the defensive stats do to some amazing stats I posted the other day and I’ll post them again for anyone who didn’t see.

      Right now according to synergy, melo and amare are better defenders than Kobe and Lebron

      Our Knick forwards both allow .79 ppp
      Kobe allows .84 ppp
      LBJ allows .86 ppp

      Awesome huh

    19. DS

      er: I totally believe the defensive stats do to some amazing stats I posted the other day and I’ll post them again for anyone who didn’t see.

      Right now according to synergy, melo and amare are better defenders than Kobe and Lebron

      Our Knick forwards both allow .79 ppp
      Kobe allows .84 ppp
      LBJ allows .86 ppp

      Awesome huh

      Awesome except Amar’e is out now! What are Shump’s numbers? Jeffries’s?

    20. TelegraphedPass

      @20 The numbers on LeBron are a bit disengenuous, seeing as how LeBron plays free safety defense for the Heat so often. His job is to fly around and guard the most dangerous opposing threats, and his defensive numbers suffer for it. I believe. (Someone correct me if I’m parsing this wrong.)

    21. DS

      Frank: IMHO Chandler is the 2nd best center in the NBA. You can say whatever you want about Bynum, but the fact that this team was in the bottom 3rd of the league in defense last year with pretty much the same personnel (minus Shump) and now is a top 5 defense is pretty amazing. If he doesn’t make at least All-NBA 3rd team it will be a travesty. Last night was a perfect example – 9 rebounds, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 charge, but nowhere in the stat sheet are the tip-outs, help defense (like his awesome close-out on Dunleavy’s 3 at the top of the circle), and making the basket area a no-fly zone for the Bucks.

      Obviously no argument here. But you may want to emotionally prepare yourself for Marc Gasol and even Hibbert and Noah to get more recognition – in addition to Bynum.

    22. Frank

      TelegraphedPass:
      @20 The numbers on LeBron are a bit disengenuous, seeing as how LeBron plays free safety defense for the Heat so often. His job is to fly around and guard the most dangerous opposing threats, and his defensive numbers suffer for it. I believe. (Someone correct me if I’m parsing this wrong.)

      The last time I looked at LBJ’s synergy numbers, he was awesome except at being horrible at guarding spot-up shooters – pretty much sounds like playing free safety and then the ball gets swung back to the guy he left. So you’re right no.

    23. JK47

      Frank: IMHO Chandler is the 2nd best center in the NBA. You can say whatever you want about Bynum, but the fact that this team was in the bottom 3rd of the league in defense last year with pretty much the same personnel (minus Shump) and now is a top 5 defense is pretty amazing.If he doesn’t makeat least All-NBA 3rd team it will be a travesty. Last night was a perfect example – 9 rebounds, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 charge, but nowhere in the stat sheet are the tip-outs, help defense (like his awesome close-out on Dunleavy’s 3 at the top of the circle), and making the basket area a no-fly zone for the Bucks.

      One poster here has repeatedly made the argument that Tyson Chandler was a waste of money, and you can get similar production from guys like Sam Dalembert and Javale McGee for pennies on the dollar. Uh, yeah, no.

    24. jon abbey

      JK47: One poster here has repeatedly made the argument that Tyson Chandler was a waste of money, and you can get similar production from guys like Sam Dalembert and Javale McGee for pennies on the dollar.Uh, yeah, no.

      who said that? I must have ignored/glossed over that, but call them out!

    25. johnlocke

      Different subject..but putting on my Nostradamus hat…I say even with the injury… we finish out the season at 11-5 putting us 6 games above .500. Boston finishes its BRUTAL schedule at 6-11, putting them at .500 in the 8th spot and Philadelphia finishes at 9-8… one game above 500 and in a tie-breaker with the Knicks for the Atlantic division. Who’s with me?

    26. Michael Cline

      drewbreez: Amen. Can’t for the life of me understand why someone was criticizing this tactic on the thread last night? Bygones… But we must wonder if the injuries to Amar’e and Jeffries will put more wear on Chandler heading into the playoff run. Imagine this team further depleted of defense and without two of its best PnR players. Gulp.

      I was one person who criticized the tactic last night. Didn’t see the others. The reason I questioned it when I did is because in two straight possessions, he actually tipped the ball out to a Bucks player, leading to a fastbreak for the opposing team. Both were balls I felt he could have just grabbed. He had positioning and a height advantage.

    27. Michael Cline

      I just played ESPN’s “playoff predictor.”

      First and only time I tried it, the Knicks were in the 8th spot and won the championship. I wanted to be excited, but then I realized that the same simulator had the Hawks beating Orlando and Miami. What a joke.

    28. Frank

      I think Zach Lowe from SI reads this board – he just tweeted this:

      ZachLowe_SI: The Knicks rank 4th in points allowed/possession, a tiny amount behind CHI and BOS. Tyson Chandler: DPOY?

    29. Garson

      Frank:
      I think Zach Lowe from SI reads this board – he just tweeted this:

      ZachLowe_SI: The Knicks rank 4th in points allowed/possession, a tiny amount behind CHI and BOS. Tyson Chandler: DPOY?

      Maybe hes the all knowing tenebrous? or was that bizzaro Ted Nelson??

    30. Frank

      Garson: Maybe hes the all knowing tenebrous? or was that bizzaro Ted Nelson??

      don’t know, but Zach, if you’re reading – love your work! you and others have seriously elevated the quality of NBA analysis in the mainstream sites. give the NYK some more love in the point forward!

    31. Matt Smith

      Michael Cline: I was one person who criticized the tactic last night. Didn’t see the others. The reason I questioned it when I did is because in two straight possessions, he actually tipped the ball out to a Bucks player, leading to a fastbreak for the opposing team. Both were balls I felt he could have just grabbed. He had positioning and a height advantage.

      I have two problems with that… a) that’s a guard problem. Their responsibility is transition defense; they need to be the first people there. Of course, swatting the ball without being able to see your target won’t always result in retaining the possession, but the guards should be able to prevent the fast break. b) From my experience as a big, just grabbing it is very difficult to pull off. 9 times out of ten that ball gets poked out, and he’s surrounded by the opposing team each time.

    32. Robtachi

      I hate thinking this, because I have such a sentimental attachment to Amar’e for having the brass testicles to take the challenge LeBron ran from… but what is the situation with the Knicks’ amnesty clause? Is it just a one-time thing that they used up with Billups, or does every team have the option to use one each offseason? Because, I mean, even if this particular back injury turns out to not be a huge deal, the remainder of STAT’s contract is still pretty prohibitive to Knickerbocker roster flexibility.

    33. Frank

      @39 – Amnesty is a one-time thing that can be used within the first (I think) 5 years of the new CBA on a contract that was ALREADY signed before the new CBA took place. So we are stuck – no more amnesty for us. Whether or not we should have used amnesty on Amare rather than Billups is another discussion.

    34. Brian Cronin

      In retrospect, it seems like they obviously should have used it on Amar’e, but I guess the PR hit was just too big. In that scenario, though, who is your starting 4? Jeffries? Melo?

    35. Z

      Brian Cronin:
      In retrospect, it seems like they obviously should have used it on Amar’e, but I guess the PR hit was just too big. In that scenario, though, who is your starting 4? Jeffries? Melo?

      You mean amnesty Amar’e to sign Chandler? Hmmm… That would have been smart, but, yeah, no way Dolan would have done that (too smart!). (You saw the crowd reaction to the Warriors owner after the Ellis trade– and that was for Monte Ellis, a bad basketball player with a bad contract AND a bad personality!)

      I think the actual debate is whether we should have amnestied Billps to sign Chandler, or just held on to the amnesty until 2014 when Amar’e is in a wheelchair making $20 mill/year.

    36. EB

      Brian Cronin:
      In retrospect, it seems like they obviously should have used it on Amar’e, but I guess the PR hit was just too big. In that scenario, though, who is your starting 4? Jeffries? Melo?

      Considering D’antoni was the coach I see it like this.
      Billups
      Shumpert
      Fields
      Melo
      Chandler

      But I think Billups is out for the year also.

    37. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Garson: Maybe hes the all knowing tenebrous? or was that bizzaro Ted Nelson??

      It was bobneptune, I think.

    38. Z

      Brian Cronin:
      I guess the PR hit was just too big.

      Funny, though, that Dolan doesn’t really seem to care much about PR. He has no finesse with the media (he’s all but lacked them out completely over the years), he seemingly has no interest at all in what the fans think of him. BUT, he is extremely loyal to the people he likes. We’ve seen it with Vin Baker, Isiah, and now Carmelo, which is why I don’t think amnestying Amar’e this summer was ever considered an option. (good PR comes from winning, and looking good for good decisions, which amnestying Amar’e over Billps would have brought in abundance further down the road…)

    39. Robtachi

      Brian Cronin:
      In retrospect, it seems like they obviously should have used it on Amar’e, but I guess the PR hit was just too big. In that scenario, though, who is your starting 4? Jeffries? Melo?

      I mean, I hate playing the retrospect game because no matter how many permutations you come up with, without a functioning flux capacitor and a bird-fro 60 years in the making, it’s never going to be the reality.

      But if I am playing, I actually prefer the way they did it. With Billups in the fold, do we stumble upon Lin? Does he get a shot with any other organization? I can acknowledge that he’s still a flawed young player, but the windfall of his ascension to “stardom” has been tremendous. And I think I still like whatever STAT is going to be at 3 years and $60 million, than having Billups on what is still not a true contender for $14 million. Maybe you get the flexibility this offseason of Billups coming off the books, but who’s your PG in 12-13? Would Melo have been enough to lure D-Will? Is Billups’ cap savings even enough to sign another max player?

    40. New Guy

      Let’s make another trade with Denver. Lin, Shumpert, Fields, Novak, Harrelson, and first round picks in 2016, 2018, and 2020 for Faried & Al Harrington’s contract.

    41. New Guy

      If we’re going to play the retrospect game, the key mistake was acquiring Billups in the first place. Felton at $7 mil could have been moved. Billups at $14 mil required amnesty.

      All roads lead back to the Melo trade.

    42. Robtachi

      If we’re playing the retrospect game, letting Dave Checketts get away was the key mistake, for two MSG franchises.

    43. alsep73

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Faried would be nice right about now, huh?

      Congratulations. You avoided responding to anyone who kept pointing out that this team as constructed needed a good defensive guard far more than a good rebounding forward, then come back to be smug after two of our top three big men get injured at the same time. Well-played by you.

      Though it still ignores how dire our backcourt situation would be (especially for however long Lin is injured) if we didn’t have Shump Shump.

    44. jon abbey

      alsep73: Congratulations. You avoided responding to anyone who kept pointing out that this team as constructed needed a good defensive guard far more than a good rebounding forward, then come back to be smug after two of our top three big men get injured at the same time. Well-played by you.

      Though it still ignores how dire our backcourt situation would be (especially for however long Lin is injured) if we didn’t have Shump Shump.

      and it’s still not true, Faried is good at rebounding and so is the current Knicks team even with no Jeffries/Amare.

      if you would prefer Faried to Shumpert on any version of the 2011-2012 Knicks team, you should really start following a different sport because this one is beyond you.

    45. Juany8

      jon abbey: and it’s still not true, Faried is good at rebounding and so is the current Knicks team even with no Jeffries/Amare.

      if you would prefer Faried to Shumpert on any version of the 2011-2012 Knicks team, you should really start following a different sport because this one is beyond you.

      Chandler is basically Faried with defense, what the hell would Faried do besides dunk in transition, clog the lane, and steal rebounds from teammates? This team has enough spacing problems, at least Shumpert is capable of making the occasional 3. Plus trading one of the top guard defenders in the league for a power forward defender would take away from the whole defense thing this team has going for it.

    46. jon abbey

      Juany8: Chandler is basically Faried with defense, what the hell would Faried do besides dunk in transition, clog the lane, and steal rebounds from teammates? This team has enough spacing problems, at least Shumpert is capable of making the occasional 3. Plus trading one of the top guard defenders in the league for a power forward defender would take away from the whole defense thing this team has going for it.

      exactly, more idiocy from the man who has combined smugness and cluelessness to a Stephen A Smith-ian degree.

    47. EB

      Unless Faried shoots threes or can run the point in a pinch I don’t think he’d help anymore than Shump

    48. TelegraphedPass

      New Guy: Let’s make another trade with Denver. Lin, Shumpert, Fields, Novak, Harrelson, and first round picks in 2016, 2018, and 2020 for Faried & Al Harrington’s contract.

      *squints* Not sure if serious…

    49. TelegraphedPass

      I think THCJ’s Faried love is extraordinarily exaggerated as well, but I think Jon and Juany8 are selling him a bit short. He’s a hustle monster and the Knicks are not quite as good at rebounding as you make it seem.

      I also think Shump still makes more sense than Faried, though in light of the STAT injury Faried looks infinitely more useful.

    50. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: Chandler is basically Faried with defense, what the hell would Faried do besides dunk in transition, clog the lane, and steal rebounds from teammates? This team has enough spacing problems, at least Shumpert is capable of making the occasional 3. Plus trading one of the top guard defenders in the league for a power forward defender would take away from the whole defense thing this team has going for it.

      What is “clogging the lane?” Faried gets position for rebounds from outside the paint while the ball is in the air.

    51. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      EB:
      Unless Faried shoots threes or can run the point in a pinch I don’t think he’d help anymore than Shump

      Shumpert shoots the 3 at 27%. He should never be taking three point shots in the first place.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/ey7xB

      Still, he’s chucking a lot of threes for such a shitty shooter. He joins Melo on that list.

    52. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      And Juany8, do you realize that Faried’s offensive rebound percentage is a mother fucking 16.9%? Four dudes in the league have played more than 500 minutes and have posted those numbers. There are diminishing returns for defensive rebounding, but if you really think that Faried is going to “clog” the lane and “steal” offensive rebounds from mother fucking “Eight-Inch Vertical” Amar’e Stoudemire, you are watching, to quote jon abbey, the wrong fucking game. What a stupid fucking comment. Where’s Mike to restore order to these stat-hating mouth breathers?

    53. TelegraphedPass

      @64 Belay that Melo slander! He’s a medicre 3 point shooter, not a shitty one. (Wait, he’s shitty this season. But normally mediocre. Except when he came to NY last season. My head hurts.)

    54. ruruland

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: What is “clogging the lane?” Faried gets position for rebounds from outside the paint while the ball is in the air.

      The question is more what is he doing when the ball isn’t in the air. How is he defended with the ball in his hands? How is he defended in pick and rolls? What is the cost benefit when the opponent is always concerned about packing the paint to ensure they block out Faried….. I’d say on offense it’s still an overall plus because of the sheer amount of extra shots Faried gives you, but the overall quality of those shots when viewed in really large samples won’t be as good as it is with big men who are actual threats outside of 3 feet.

      That’s how basketball works. The vast majority of Faried’s damage is done in transition, which is fine I suppose. But the Nuggets can really struggle to get good shots in the halfcourt, and Faried is part of the problem there.

      Defensively, Denver is 8.5 points better with him on the bench. That’s a bad defensive team. So, that’s pretty interesting.

      His hustle and athleticism are off the charts….But the more I watch him, the less impressed I become…. He has time to get better, but his size is always going to be a huge concern on defense.

    55. EB

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Shumpert shoots the 3 at 27%. He should never be taking three point shots in the first place.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/ey7xB

      Still, he’s chucking a lot of threes for such a shitty shooter. He joins Melo on that list.

      I’m not saying shumpert does that but the problem the knicks have right now is spacing or simply 3pt shooting. The player that would help the most would be a player who can shoot 3′s.

      Furthermore the Knicks strength this year is in their defense where they rank 2nd in opponents Turnover Rate. This has largely to do with the pressure Shumpert puts on an offense. So my argument rests on the fact that none of the skills faried brings are problem areas of the knicks, while their turn around in defense has a lot to do with Shump.

    56. Z

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Shumpert shoots the 3 at 27%. He should never be taking three point shots in the first place.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/ey7xB

      Still, he’s chucking a lot of threes for such a shitty shooter. He joins Melo on that list.

      Shumpert’s FG% has gone up every month, which is a really good sign for a rookie. His 3pt% in March is the highest of any other month too.

      It is really strange that you would come here, spewing obscenities and making broad pronouncements about Faried over Shumpert, the morning after Shump hit a huge 3 pointer to win the biggest game of the year so far.

    57. jon abbey

      TelegraphedPass:
      I think THCJ’s Faried love is extraordinarily exaggerated as well, but I think Jon and Juany8 are selling him a bit short. He’s a hustle monster and the Knicks are not quite as good at rebounding as you make it seem.

      I also think Shump still makes more sense than Faried, though in light of the STAT injury Faried looks infinitely more useful.

      Faried is a terrible defender by the Synergy numbers, one of the very worst in the league.

      and look at the rebounding numbers for NY under Woodson, especially the last two games. rebounding is not a problem for this team right now and they will presumably have Jeffries back at some point.

      but every edition of this team (there have been four this season, pre-Lin, Linsanity, Melo/Amare joining Linsanity, Woodson era) would have been pretty fucked without Shumpert.

    58. jon abbey

      Z:

      It is really strange that you would come here, spewing obscenities and making broad pronouncements about Faried over Shumpert, the morning after Shump hit a huge 3 pointer to win the biggest game of the year so far.

      I don’t believe you, if Dave Berri didn’t talk about it, it didn’t happen. :)

    59. DS

      Do you really want to get into the ripple effect of amnestying Amar’e??

      Amar’e would been claimed by New Jersey, the Clippers or someone creating an alternate 1985 where Biff Tannon controls all of Hill Valley.

    60. Juany8

      THCJ, have you ever watched a basketball possession AWAY from the ball, where a significant portion of the action is going? The man cannot shoot outside of 3 ft, which makes him pretty easy to guard. Basically his man would be able to just stand between him and the rim at all times, which makes him a nonexistent threat outside of the paint. Since players can’t just sit in the paint waiting for a pass, it means most of the time Faried spends on the court in a half court offense involves his man leaving him to cover the real offensive threats, while one person is capable of guarding both him and someone with equally limited range like Chandler or McGee. If he was playing next to someone like the Gasols or Duncan he would be fantastic (at least offensively) but the Knicks need defense and shooting more than anything right now, Chandler and Melo are both good rebounders for their position and Amar’e was really starting to pick it up, so what the hell would Faried do on the Knicks? I’d rather have Jeffries as a backup, Chicago has shown the best thing to do with a bench is absolutely prevent the opponent from scoring, then hoping a few random shots will go in until the starters come back lol.

    61. Frank O.

      It’s hard to quantify SHUMP’s value based on statistics alone. I mean on its face, he’s terrible from three and a bad shooter overall at sub 39%. This is made worse by the fact that he takes about 12 shots per game.
      And while he gets about 2.3 steals per 36, he commits about 2.6 TOs per 36, a wash.
      But we have seen him utterly shut down some of the better opposing guards in the NBA.
      I still think he is better in combination with Landry, who isn’t as good a defender, but is a better scorer overall. Landry, tho, is actually a worse 3 pt shooter (24%), by a lot. I also think Smith should remain a bench guy. A good defender, but his shot is so, so sketchy.

      Either way, I think the Knicks are getting the most out of their platooning at the deuce.

    62. ruruland

      Frank O.:
      It’s hard to quantify SHUMP’s value based on statistics alone. I mean on its face, he’s terrible from three and a bad shooter overall at sub 39%. This is made worse by the fact that he takes about 12 shots per game.
      And while he gets about 2.3 stealsper 36, he commits about 2.6 TOs per 36, a wash.
      But we have seen him utterly shut down some of the better opposing guards in the NBA.
      I still think he is better in combination with Landry, who isn’t as good a defender, but is a better scorer overall. Landry, tho, is actually a worse 3 pt shooter (24%), by a lot. I also think Smith should remain a bench guy. A good defender, but his shot is so, so sketchy.

      Either way, I think the Knicks are getting the most out of their platooning at the deuce.

      Smith can be a streaky shooter, but four of the past 5 years he’s had a 3pt percentage above 390.

      he shot 45% from 3 post- all star last year, 43% post-all star in ’09 and 41% post all-star in ’08.

      Those aren’t the percentages of a catch and shoot guy, either. He takes more difficult threes (as a function of him having the ball late in the clock as you saw numerous times last night) than most guys in the league.

    63. Juany8

      Also THCJ, I understand statistics far more than you seem to, I’ve mentioned this plenty of times, but I believe the level of advanced statistics discussed publicly on the internet is amateurish at best. If I’m being a little more cynical, it seems most “statisticians” trumping their numbers online seem more concerned with creating a “brand” or getting respect than they do with actual scientific pursuit, so you get people like Berri and THCJ who result to constant ad hominem attacks and obnoxious, condescending statements to make those who attack them seem stupid regardless of what actual points they are making. True science is always skeptical, especially of itself, and pretending you’ve uncovered some fundamental law of anything with a few linear correlations is both arrogant and, well, wrong. You can type in caps lock all you want and act all smug because you’re right about the occasional prediction (how about them Nuggets huh?) it doesn’t mean I have to lower my level of intellectual discourse because someone plotted a box score number next to a team’s wins and drew a conclusion from it.

    64. jon abbey

      Frank O.:
      This is made worse by the fact that he takes about 12 shots per game.

      not sure where you’re getting that, but he’s averaging 9 shots for the season, and only 5.6 in March. he hasn’t shot 12 times in a game since the Linsanity game in MIN on Feb 11 where he scored 20.

    65. TelegraphedPass

      JR gets a lot of value ignored on the box score by his ability to create his own shot off the dribble. These things get missed by advanced stats.

    66. Ben R

      jon abbey: not sure where you’re getting that, but he’s averaging 9 shots for the season, and only 5.6 in March. he hasn’t shot 12 times in a game since the Linsanity game in MIN on Feb 11 where he scored 20.

      He averaging 11.9 shots per 36. I’m pretty sure he was looking at per 36 numbers. I would prefer if Shumpert shot less but he is still a net positive.

      I am happy we have Shumpert, I think there is a decent chance he becomes a poor mans Tony Allen moving forward and that’s pretty good for a non-lottery pick in a shallow draft, but Faried even with his poor defense has shown a lot more both at this level and at the college level.

      We don’t have Faried though so there’s no reason to keep pining, just like there is no reason to pine over Lawson or Blair. We took a good player in Shumpert and at the end of the day that is all that matters.

    67. Frank

      Re: the ongoing Faried thing – as I’ve mentioned before, traditional box score stats do not capture how good or bad someone is as a defender outside of how well someone rebounds/steals the ball when the offensive player fails. But if the offensive player WINS and scores, there is nothing in the box score to validate that.

      But more advanced stats (ie. things that are not measured in WS/WP etc.) can reveal a few things. For instance – on statscube there is player vs. player on/off court impact – if you look at Faried vs. the good offensive PFs in the league, they just KILL him. Dirk averages 43 points per 36 when Faried is guarding him. Boozer shoots 86% from the floor against him. Duncan, the guy who just got a DNP-OLD, averaged 25.4 points on 67% shooting against him. Love didn’t do that well surprisingly, but he’s not really a low-post guy. These are all small samples and I admittedly cherry-picked some of them, but they all support his terrible +/- numbers on the defensive end. And that was the rub on him coming out – great rebounder, great hustle guy, but too small to guard NBA PFs.

    68. Frank

      Sorry- continuing – he probably needs to be guarding 3′s on this level, but unfortunately he doesn’t have any SF-like offensive skills. So he’s sort of like a Balkman-type player, just way better. So he’s a very rich man’s Balkman. Like a Warren Buffett’s Balkman. Which is good.

    69. jon abbey

      Ben R: but Faried even with his poor defense has shown a lot more both at this level and at the college level.

      certainly not true about this level as other people have explained, and he didn’t play in a major conference in college.

    70. Owen

      I’d rather have Faried in a vacuum and see if he can figure the defense out. But Shumpert was a good fit for this team.

      That said, it’s seems strange to put Faried’s defense under the microscope without doing the same for Shumpert’s offense. His numbers are really really bad. Like atrocious.

      Not to say that I don’t see value there, but I struggle to believe that Faried is worse on defense than Shumpert is on offense. It’s probably a wash.

      My bet is also that Faried will figure out how to play defense much better as time passes.

    71. Zach Horst

      Jafa:
      Is anybody else worried about losing Jeremy Lin in free agency after this season?

      No, I don’t think we can with the new CBA rules. Anyone know the exact literature?

    72. Frank O.

      ruruland: Smith can be a streaky shooter, but four of the past 5 years he’s had a 3pt percentage above 390.

      he shot 45% from 3 post- all star last year, 43% post-all star in ’09 and 41% post all-star in ’08.

      Those aren’t the percentages of a catch and shoot guy, either. He takes more difficult threes (as a function of him having the ball late in the clock as you saw numerous times last night) than most guys in the league.

      I’ve seen those stats, but there is a part of me that discounts past performance when current performance is no where near the same, which I believe is a result of this truncated season.
      I think this season will have an asterisk forever. Past seasons don’t apply because those seasons were nothing like this one. So many guys are so far off their career averages, over and under, that it makes one suspicious. How does a guy in past seasons shoot so well and then drop off so suddenly? The one clear variable is the compressed season with little rest and few practices. I believe this is a major cause for
      Melo drop off, as u know.

    73. Doug

      Juany8:
      Also THCJ, I understand statistics far more than you seem to, I’ve mentioned this plenty of times, but I believe the level of advanced statistics discussed publicly on the internet is amateurish at best. If I’m being a little more cynical, it seems most “statisticians” trumping their numbers online seem more concerned with creating a “brand” or getting respect than they do with actual scientific pursuit, so you get people like Berri and THCJ who result to constant ad hominem attacks and obnoxious, condescending statements to make those who attack them seem stupid regardless of what actual points they are making. True science is always skeptical, especially of itself, and pretending you’ve uncovered some fundamental law of anything with a few linear correlations is both arrogant and, well, wrong. You can type in caps lock all you want and act all smug because you’re right about the occasional prediction (how about them Nuggets huh?) it doesn’t mean I have to lower my level of intellectual discourse because someone plotted a box score number next to a team’s wins and drew a conclusion from it.

      To use a baseball analogy, imagine Voros McCracken in 2002 acting like dERA was the be-all and end-all of pitching statistics and insulting anyone who criticized it. Or Mitchel Lichtman in 2005 dogmatically refusing to admit any flaws with UZR.

    74. Frank O.

      jon abbey: not sure where you’re getting that, but he’s averaging 9 shots for the season, and only 5.6 in March. he hasn’t shot 12 times in a game since the Linsanity game in MIN on Feb 11 where he scored 20.

      Sorry about 12 per 36 according to basketball-reference.com

    75. Frank

      Owen:
      That said, it’s seems strange to put Faried’s defense under the microscope without doing the same for Shumpert’s offense. His numbers are really really bad. Like atrocious.

      Certainly awful the first part of the year, but since the ASB he hasn’t been THAT bad– per 36:
      11.1 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.7 TOs, TS 50.6%

      What’s fallen off a fair amount is his FT shooting. He was at 85% pre-ASB and is only 70% post-ASB — his TS would be about 52.5 if he were still shooting his FTs like he was prior. His 3P% is still not good but is 30.4% post-ASB. Which is, like, WAY better than Landry shooting 14.3% during the same period from 3.

    76. Frank O.

      Owen:
      I’d rather have Faried in a vacuum and see if he can figure the defense out. But Shumpert was a good fit for this team.

      That said, it’s seems strange to put Faried’s defense under the microscope without doing the same for Shumpert’s offense. His numbers are really really bad. Like atrocious.

      Not to say that I don’t see value there, but I struggle to believe that Faried is worse on defense than Shumpert is on offense. It’s probably a wash.

      My bet is also that Faried will figure out how to play defense much better as time passes.

      I have written extensively about SHUMP’s O here especially in relation to Fields. It has not been well received by certain Shump-tastic boosters

    77. Frank

      Right now Shumpert is like a rookie version of Tony Allen. That’s not a bad place to be. His ceiling is, IMHO, above Tony Allen, which is also not a bad place to be. Actually, an even better comp is Ronnie Brewer, who is a @$%^ good complementary player. But again, Brewer and Allen are veterans with 5+ seasons in the league. Shumpert is playing somewhere close to their level, and he’s a rookie who had no summer league, half a training camp, an injury in the beginning of the year, and no practice.

      I for one am very happy about drafting him. Sure, it’d be nice to have Faried when STAT and JJ both get injured simultaneously. But looking forward, I don’t think it’s obvious which one would have been better for this team.

    78. Frank O.

      Frank: Certainly awful the first part of the year, but since the ASB he hasn’t been THAT bad– per 36:
      11.1 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.7 TOs, TS 50.6%

      What’s fallen off a fair amount is his FT shooting. He was at 85% pre-ASB and is only 70% post-ASB — his TS would be about 52.5 if he were still shooting his FTs like he was prior.His 3P% is still not good but is 30.4% post-ASB. Which is, like, WAY better than Landry shooting 14.3% during the same period from 3.

      No doubt the has been improvement. But neither Shump nor Fields is a complete enough player to have a solid edge in minutes. Like I said, I think the platoon has worked well.
      I am still stunned that the Knicks worked hard on Fields’ shot over the summer and made it worse. 14 percent from 3 during this stretch is just horrible.
      I do say, SHUMP’s D is excellent, whereas Fields used to be excellent on the the glass, but isn’t excellent this year.

    79. Bulleya1

      Do you think the Knicks should explore signing a free agent or a D-Leaguer to substitute for some of the banged up bodies we have right now? If so, which players are still out there that are unsigned and worthy of giving a chance to?
      I personally cant think of any..but I’m not too familiar with the D-League scene.

    80. Brian Cronin

      Is anybody else worried about losing Jeremy Lin in free agency after this season?

      If the Knicks want to keep him, they can keep him. There’s no way he can leave the Knicks this offseason without the Knicks allowing it. They can match any offer made to him.

    81. Frank O.

      Frank:
      Right now Shumpert is like a rookie version of Tony Allen. That’s not a bad place to be.His ceiling is, IMHO, above Tony Allen, which is also not a bad place to be.Actually, an even better comp is Ronnie Brewer, who is a @$%^ good complementary player. But again, Brewer and Allen are veterans with 5+ seasons in the league. Shumpert is playing somewhere close to their level, and he’s a rookie who had no summer league, half a training camp, an injury in the beginning of the year, and no practice.

      I for one am very happy about drafting him.Sure, it’d be nice to have Faried when STAT and JJ both get injured simultaneously. But looking forward, I don’t think it’s obvious which one would have been better for this team.

      Certainly not worth the tirades we’ve seen today…

    82. jon abbey

      Frank O.: I have written extensively about SHUMP’s O here especially in relation to Fields. It has not been well received by certain Shump-tastic boosters

      because I don’t think that numbers tell the whole story. the guy has had his role jerked around all season: backup SG, starting PG, backup PG, starting SG. his defensive versatility and injuries/other players sucking have forced the coaches into this, but if he ever gets a regular, consistent role, I think his offensive numbers will get better. he also seems to be at his best in crunch time, like last night.

    83. johnlocke

      Post ASG there is no way Field’s O has been better than Shumpert’s. The primary job of a shooting guard on this team is to space the floor, attack the rim, shoot and hopefully make open jumpers and play some defense. I think the defense argument is clear.

      On offense, Fields has NO confidence in his shot. He does not provide spacing for the floor and opponents are leaving him wide open, at which point he misses badly or more often passes up an open shot late in the shot clock which discombobulates the offense. His effective dribble drive moves consists of a fake in one direction and a blow by in the opposite direction. That is literally the only way in which he scores. He has no mid-range game. As it relates to passing he forces too many alley oops resulting in turnovers. On the free throw line, I don’t think he’s made 2 consecutive free throws since the All-Star break, and he’s our starting 2 guard! The Fields of old is probably better than Shump on O. But Fields post ASG is way worse and not even close.

      Frank O.: I have written extensively about SHUMP’s O here especially in relation to Fields. It has not been well received by certain Shump-tastic boosters

    84. Frank O.

      Brian Cronin: If the Knicks want to keep him, they can keep him. There’s no way he can leave the Knicks this offseason without the Knicks allowing it. They can match any offer made to him.

      I believe he’ll e a knick for a long time.

    85. Brian Cronin

      Do you think the Knicks should explore signing a free agent or a D-Leaguer to substitute for some of the banged up bodies we have right now? If so, which players are still out there that are unsigned and worthy of giving a chance to?
      I personally cant think of any..but I’m not too familiar with the D-League scene.

      I don’t believe the NBA allows teams to sign guys to replace injured players. You have a 15-man limit and that’s it. And since Woodson loves him some Bibby, you can’t cut Bibby and he’s the only real cuttable Knick (Walker, I guess, but that seems like a waste, especially when we don’t know who will be on the team next year).

    86. Brian Cronin

      But looking forward, I don’t think it’s obvious which one would have been better for this team.

      Absolutely the correct position. It is not obvious either way.

    87. Frank O.

      johnlocke:
      Post ASG there is no way Field’s O has been better than Shumpert’s.The primary job of a shooting guard on this team is to space the floor, attack the rim, shoot and hopefully make open jumpers and play some defense.I think the defense argument is clear.

      On offense, Fields has NO confidence in his shot. He does not provide spacing for the floor and opponents are leaving him wide open, at which point he misses badly or more often passes up an open shot late in the shot clock which discombobulates the offense. His effective dribble drive moves consists of a fake in one direction and a blow by in the opposite direction. That is literally the only way in which he scores. He has no mid-range game. As it relates to passing he forces too many alley oops resulting in turnovers. On the free throw line, I don’t think he’s made 2 consecutive free throws since the All-Star break, and he’s our starting 2 guard! The Fields of old is probably better than Shump on O. But Fields post ASG is way worse and not even close.

      No argument from me since asg, but his overall shooting percentage is 8 Percentage points better despite SHUMP’s improvement and Fields’s decline since asg.

    88. Frank

      Frank O.: Certainly not worth the tirades we’ve seen today…

      LOL, especially considering the guys we’ve COULD’VE drafted – I know Singleton’s value is mostly on the D end but he has a PER of 8.17. Literally the only guys drafted after Shumpert that have played even passably this year are Faried, Marshon Brooks, and Norris Cole. Parsons has been pretty good but “for a second round pick” is probably the right modifier for him. I mean, if Ed Tapscott was still running this team’s draft, we probably would’ve taken Motiejunas only to watch him never come over from Europe. Or we could have ended up with Josh Selby.

      We really have been spoiled with our draft picks – even though we all would have wanted Lawson rather than Hill, at least Hill is an actual NBA player. There haven’t been any John Wallace, Maciej Lampe, Donnell Harvey, Frederic Weis type picks probably since Balkman was taken before Rondo.

    89. johnlocke

      True…but I think that ties to my previous point about Fields passing up open shots. Not taking open shots hurts a team’s continuity, efficiency and ruins offensive flow. It also hurts offensive rebound potential if you’re wide open and passing. I’m a huge efficiency guy — but one of the blind spots of looking at efficiency / shooting % in a vacuum is when players pass up shots that they need to take which puts other players in a worse position of taking poorer shots with the shot clock winding down. Fields shoots open layups and alley oop dunks …but he is a 2 guard, not a center.

      Frank O.: No argument from me since asg, but his overall shooting percentage is 8 Percentage points better despite SHUMP’s improvement and Fields’s decline since asg.

    90. Frank

      johnlocke:
      True…but I think that ties to my previous point about Fields passing up open shots. Not taking open shots hurts a team’s continuity, efficiency and ruins offensive flow. It also hurts offensive rebound potential if you’re wide open and passing.I’m a huge efficiency guy — but one of the blind spots of looking at efficiency / shooting % in a vacuum is when players pass up shots that they need to take which puts other players in a worse position of taking poorer shots with the shot clock winding down.Fields shoots open layups and alley oop dunks …but he is a 2 guard, not a center.

      LOTS of blind spots in current stats. Too many confounders just like you said.

    91. art vandelay

      “Just talked to a back specialist who said, depending on how he responds to treatment, Amare could be back in 2 weeks if he forgoes surgery.”

      via webReplyRetweetFavorite@IanBegley
      Ian Begley

    92. Zach Horst

      As offensive players, I think both are built for a mid-range game. Shumpert, this year, is just terrible from mid-range, at only 34%. Fields on the other hand, is a very respectable 45%. Shumpert can change speed quickly, so he can often get open with a stop and pop. He usually misses these wide-open shots, though. Fields, on the other hand, seems to be pretty effective when he fakes a three, drives past his man, and shoots a 10-15 footer. Problem is, when he isn’t close on any three’s, no one buys the fake.

    93. villainx

      @109, that doesn’t instill confidence. Actually, no medical update is going to make me feel good unless someone admits that it was all a smudge on the printout.

    94. Z

      ruruland: Smith can be a streaky shooter, but…he shot 45% from 3 post- all star last year.

      Unfortunately, though, that may help to prove Frank’s point more than hurts it, considering our own Toney Douglas was also shooting great, post all star break, last year. Sometimes, the past is just the past, and in the words of Neil Young, “once it’s gone, it ain’t never coming back.”

    95. d-mar

      art vandelay:
      “Just talked to a back specialist who said, depending on how he responds to treatment, Amare could be back in 2 weeks if he forgoes surgery.”

      via webReplyRetweetFavorite@IanBegley
      Ian Begley

      Wow, I really really want to believe that, but sounds way too good to be true.

    96. TelegraphedPass

      @112 That of course assumes that it’s gone, and there isn’t a ton of evidence to support that idea. JR has had some very strong shooting performances this season already, and I doubt he has lost his stroke for good.

    97. ruruland

      Z: Unfortunately, though, that may help to prove Frank’s point more than hurts it, considering our own Toney Douglas was also shooting great, post all star break, last year. Sometimes, the past is just the past, and in the words of Neil Young, “once it’s gone, it ain’t never coming back.”

      Nah. I hear what you’re saying, but in the same sense with Melo (to a much lesser extent and sans injuries), JR’s had long cold stretches like this pretty much every year, only to break into prolonged periods where he’s a dominant (43+%), high volume shooter.

      The problem is that what in the past used to be a typical, poor shooting stretch of 10-15 games , now means a LOT MORE…. So it feels as though he’ll never shoot well again just because each game feels more important.

      With Melo it’s different and more complicated. But I would be very surprised, assuming good health, if both aren’t playing at a much higher level on offense by the playoffs.

    98. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8:
      Also THCJ, I understand statistics far more than you seem to, I’ve mentioned this plenty of times, but I believe the level of advanced statistics discussed publicly on the internet is amateurish at best. If I’m being a little more cynical, it seems most “statisticians” trumping their numbers online seem more concerned with creating a “brand” or getting respect than they do with actual scientific pursuit, so you get people like Berri and THCJ who result to constant ad hominem attacks and obnoxious, condescending statements to make those who attack them seem stupid regardless of what actual points they are making.

      You, yet again, completely misrepresent my argument. I do not pretend that statistical analysis has reached Truth in the case of basketball statistics; I merely suggest that Berri’s methodology is not nearly as flawed as you make it out to be. Berri does not argue that his method produces 1:1 correlation. That would be a silly argument, don’t you think? But over the range of data that he applies his formula to, it looks pretty convincing that the box score can be weighted to predict future success. And his model predicts future success pretty well, too.

      I’m not sure what kind of value you invest in the box score. Do you also think that the Four Factors are a load of bullshit because they can be measured according to the box score?

    99. Ben R

      Frank: Right now Shumpert is like a rookie version of Tony Allen. That’s not a bad place to be. His ceiling is, IMHO, above Tony Allen, which is also not a bad place to be.

      Tony Allen was a much better offensive player as a rookie than Shumpert has been. As a rookie Tony Allen had a TS% of over 54% and got to the Free throw line more often. On defense as a rookie he averaged 0.1 less steals but 0.5 more blocks. The only skill Shumpert is a clear improvement over Allen is assists but Allen’s superiority on the boards evens that out. Looking further back Allen was a much more efficient college player too. The one wild card is Shumpert is 2 years younger than Allen.

      Tony Allen is one of the top wing defenders in the NBA and an efficient scorer. I think better than Tony Allen is a little optimistic. I would agree that, because of his age, Shumpert’s absolute best case scenerio is better than Tony Allen but overall I would put poor mans Tony Allen as a most likely and pretty good outcome.

    100. david

      Even though some people thought we should take Faried (I’m one of them, fwiw), I think it’s pretty clear that Shump was good value at his spot in the draft. And he’s one of the most entertaining Knicks in years. So even if it wasn’t the optimal pick, it’s not like it was Balkman over Rondo or Weis over Artest, Kirlenko and Ginobli….

    101. ephus

      If Lin and ‘Melo are out in addition to Stat, Jeffries and Walker, the Knicks are going to have a really ugly half-court offense tomorrow. I do not know if that counsels to try to get out and run (which might send Baron Davis to the hospital with exhaustion by the 3rd quarter) or to take the air out of the ball and hope that Davis can create enough off of penetration to get Novak and Smith open to rain down 3s.

      I think the starting lineup would have to be Davis/Shumpert/Smith/Novak/Chandler. Fields would be first off of the bench, with limited minutes for Bibby and Jorts. Douglas and Jordan should only appear in garbage time.

    102. Z-man

      I notice THCJ has stopped crowing about Fields, who was his Berri-boy last year yet has absolutely regressed in every possible way this year. It shouldn’t be too long before Shump overtakes Faried after the league figures out that all you need to do is box Faried out and he’s totally useless.

    103. max fisher-cohen

      @Ben R –

      Allen looked like a very promising — though completely out of control — player early in his career. Then, in his third season, he tore both his MCL and ACL. Unsurprisingly, it took him several years to recover some semblance of his athleticism, but in that time he seemed to mature. He stopped taking stupid shots and improved as a defender. He also never learned to shoot the three, something that I think will be the deciding factor in whether Shumpert is a sixth man or a starter and marginal all-star.

    104. thenamestsam

      Z-man:
      I notice THCJ has stopped crowing about Fields, who was his Berri-boy last year yet has absolutely regressed in every possible way this year. It shouldn’t be too long before Shump overtakes Faried after the league figures out that all you need to do is box Faried out and he’s totally useless.

      I’m not a huge believer in Berri, but the fact that Fields has regressed doesn’t have anything to do with this discussion in my opinion. The system is about rating players, not predicting future performance. And Fields was pretty fantastic last year. You can say he wasn’t as good as Berri rated him, and I’d agree with you, but his play this year has nothing to do with evaluating the level of his play last year.

      And your statement about Faried? You can’t really believe that. If it was that easy no players would ever got offensive rebounds once the league “figures them out”. It’s a silly statement.

    105. jon abbey

      ephus:
      If Lin and ‘Melo are out in addition to Stat, Jeffries and Walker,the Knicks are going to have a really ugly half-court offense tomorrow.

      Melo evidently said on Michael Kay’s show this afternoon that he’d play tomorrow for sure.

      and it’s cute that you include Bill Walker on that list, are you guys related? :)

    106. jon abbey

      thenamestsam: I’m not a huge believer in Berri, but the fact that Fields has regressed doesn’t have anything to do with this discussion in my opinion. The system is about rating players, not predicting future performance. And Fields was pretty fantastic last year. You can say he wasn’t as good as Berri rated him, and I’d agree with you, but his play this year has nothing to do with evaluating the level of his play last year.

      even if you just want to stick to last year, he dropped off a cliff mid-season and turned in one of the worst playoff series I’ve ever seen from anyone. Berri had him as the 8th best player in THE ENTIRE LEAGUE for the season, he’s certainly not in the 8 best Knicks right now when all are healthy and he wasn’t one of the hundred best players in the league by the end of last season.

    107. johnlocke

      Hollinger actually predicted Field’s demise quite well based on analysis he did last year: Here are some select quotes from Field’s Hollinger profile —

      “Fields rarely attacked offensively, however, and if he didn’t have a putback it wasn’t clear what he could offer in a half-court offense. His 39.3 percent 3-point shooting mark was very solid but seems like an outlier based on his college stats”

      “Fields shoots at the rim only in transition or on putbacks, so they’re all easy shots; if he tries getting to the basket on his own steam that number will go down.”

      “While he moved the ball effectively, a fifth option should not be punting the ball this often. As always, I’ll remind everyone that a high turnover rate from a rookie is often a sign of improvement to come. Fields will need that to be the case, since I suspect his TS% may regress”

      thenamestsam: I’m not a huge believer in Berri, but the fact that Fields has regressed doesn’t have anything to do with this discussion in my opinion. The system is about rating players, not predicting future performance. And Fields was pretty fantastic last year. You can say he wasn’t as good as Berri rated him, and I’d agree with you, but his play this year has nothing to do with evaluating the level of his play last year.

      And your statement about Faried? You can’t really believe that. If it was that easy no players would ever got offensive rebounds once the league “figures them out”. It’s a silly statement.

    108. JC Knickfan

      There alot of hate for Fields, but I agree he more suit for playing backup 3 right now. He shoot 54% from 2pt range, but has high % because assisted layup or drives. There no reason not keep him as rotation player, but our starting shoot guard should be able shoot the open J.

      We not in great cap situation, but they going tons FA each year because half team also have cap issue. Almost half player on each team are signed one-year deals. There also probably going to more Amnestied players.

      Daniel Green current on SA might someone Knicks can possible sign a league min? His 3pt % has improved 3 years in a row.

    109. d-mar

      I really hope Woodson tells his players not to double on Howard tomorrow, let him get his points, even bring in Jorts and Jordan to hack-a-Dwight, but just do not allow Anderson, J-Rich,etc. to get open 3′s. That’s the Magic formula, so to speak.

    110. Z-man

      thenamestsam: I’m not a huge believer in Berri, but the fact that Fields has regressed doesn’t have anything to do with this discussion in my opinion. The system is about rating players, not predicting future performance. And Fields was pretty fantastic last year. You can say he wasn’t as good as Berri rated him, and I’d agree with you, but his play this year has nothing to do with evaluating the level of his play last year.
      And your statement about Faried? You can’t really believe that. If it was that easy no players would ever got offensive rebounds once the league “figures them out”. It’s a silly statement.

      I’m referring to how Berri had Fields rated in college vs. his progress as a pro. There are several adjustment phases players have to make adapt to the NBA. For players with limited offensive games (Fields and Faried both fall into this category) they can either land in situations that mask their weaknesses, or they can develop a go-to offensive skillset over time. If not, they need to have something else to more than make up for their deficiencies. Fields simply does not have that right now. He’s young, somewhat athletic and smart, so he might figure something out, but for now, he is one of the worst swingmen in the league. Faried has yet to show whether he will get better, stay the same or regress as the league adjusts to him.

      The larger point is that the churlish “I told you so” broken record over not drafting Faried is just stupid at this point, as it would have been towards the NBA teams that passed over Fields, some of them twice, in the prior draft. And I do honestly believe that Shump will make a greater impact as a SG than Faried will as a PF over their respective careers.

    111. daJudge

      And really why does any Knick fan care one bit about Faried, unless of course we’re playing against the Nugs? Sure, great story, seems like a really good kid, rebounds great, playing well, but he’s on a different team for god sakes. I just don’t get the Faried adoration nor the weird Nuggets obsession. Shump is playing great. If you can’t see that or want to critique his offense, that’s your choice. I respect stats a lot, but frankly I don’t need them to form my opinion. Maybe to back it up. Also, with all the Monday morning crap, it’s like a guy I knew that would always criticize, in great detail, the trial technique of all the ‘shitty’ lawyers that were out there trying cases. Had lot’s to say. Never tried a case.

    112. Spree8nyk8

      d-mar:
      I really hope Woodson tells his players not to double on Howard tomorrow, let him get his points, even bring in Jorts and Jordan to hack-a-Dwight, but just do not allow Anderson, J-Rich,etc. to get open 3?s. That’s the Magic formula, so to speak.

      Dang, it’s like I agree with you and disagree at the same time. Last time they shut Howard down completely and we lost, so I’d say that you have to be right, but Orlando shot such a high % from 3 that game that I just can’t really see them repeating that. If they don’t double Howard he’s gonna foul Chandler out and get 60.

    113. cgreene

      d-mar:
      I really hope Woodson tells his players not to double on Howard tomorrow, let him get his points, even bring in Jorts and Jordan to hack-a-Dwight, but just do not allow Anderson, J-Rich,etc. to get open 3?s. That’s the Magic formula, so to speak.

      +10000000000000

      just has daid the exact same thing to a friend

    114. ephus

      jon abbey: Melo evidently said on Michael Kay’s show this afternoon that he’d play tomorrow for sure.

      and it’s cute that you include Bill Walker on that list, are you guys related? :)

      Lin + Melo + Chandler = really exciting chance to win.

      Melo + Chandler = chance to win, but have to slow it down to allow ‘Melo to post up.

      No Lin, No Melo = where do we get the offense? Lots of JR Smith.

      BTW, not related to Bill Walker, but I have been a fan since his freshman year at Kansas State. If he never got hurt, he would have been a top three pick. If he did not get hurt during his GSW workout, he would have been a lottery pick. It has been impressive how he has rebuilt his career despite losing virtually all of his explosiveness. I hope he has one more comeback in him.

    115. ruruland

      Knicks last 6 games from 3 pt line: 32-142. 22.5%

      Not many teams go 5-1 with those numbers

    116. jon abbey

      Ellis actually ended up with 33 (15-24 shooting) and 8, must feel nice to get away from the vice-like jaws of the Shumpinator.

    117. Z

      Spree8nyk8:
      Damn it’s nice to not be the most hated person on this forum anymore :)

      Haha. yeah, Jon has turned his sights on others… (also, Ruru’s imported optimism has made your “we’re going to sweep the celtics in the first round” prediction seem merely cautiously optimistic :)

    118. massive

      Well, seeing that the Knicks have the best post defender in the NBA not named Dwight Howard, coupled with the fact that Dwight Howard isn’t the best low-post player in the league (he’s good nonetheless), I’d like to see how Tyson fares against D12 before we resort to doubling. We saw last night how one player can torch the Knicks from downtown if they aren’t sharp and attentive on the perimeter.

      Just a thought, seeing that Chandler’s efficiency is through the roof, wouldn’t it be wise to up his usage to about 20% with Amar’e out? Even if his TS dropped to something around 59-63%, he could be a 17-18 ppg scorer for us on what would still be great efficiency.

    119. d-mar

      BigBlueAL:
      Fuck the Hawks.

      Look at the bright side, if we can somehow win tomorrow and the Hawks lose to the Bulls, and then we beat Atlanta on Friday, we’d be only 2 1/2 games out of the 6th spot. A few “ifs”, but hey, I can dream!

    120. 2FOR18

      Frank: LOL, especially considering the guys we’ve COULD’VE drafted – I know Singleton’s value is mostly on the D end but he has a PER of 8.17. Literally the only guys drafted after Shumpert that have played even passably this year are Faried, Marshon Brooks, and Norris Cole. Parsons has been pretty good but “for a second round pick” is probably the right modifier for him. I mean, if Ed Tapscott was still running this team’s draft, we probably would’ve taken Motiejunas only to watch him never come over from Europe. Or we could have ended up with Josh Selby. We really have been spoiled with our draft picks – even though we all would have wanted Lawson rather than Hill, at least Hill is an actual NBA player. There haven’t been any John Wallace, Maciej Lampe, Donnell Harvey, Frederic Weis type picks probably since Balkman was taken before Rondo.

      I wish I could get over the Lawson thing, but to this day I have no idea what they were thinking.
      On the other hand, they probably would have included him in the Melo trade anyway.

    121. dogrufus

      jon abbey:
      Ellis actually ended up with 33 (15-24 shooting) and 8, must feel nice to get away from the vice-like jaws of the Shumpinator.

      You mean vise-like. Although I guess Shump’s jaws are nasty enough to qualify as vice as well.

    122. ruruland

      Just a thought, seeing that Chandler’s efficiency is through the roof, wouldn’t it be wise to up his usage to about 20% with Amar’e out? Even if his TS dropped to something around 59-63%,

      Why not try to up Ty’s usage to 30-35%???

      Look, everyone is trying to get a layup on offense virtually every play. Everytime the Knicks run a middle pick and roll for Chandler the idea is to get him a layup as the first choice.

      Unfortunately, defenses don’t like to give up layups, especially to teams that can’t shoot 3s.

      The only way you’re going to get Tyson to score efficiently is by penetration… period.

      Chandler scores because he gets spoonfed dunks and attacks the board for putbacks. He’s really good at those two things, and he’s an above average free throw shooter, which makes him super efficient.

      But his usage has very little to do with his skills, and a lot to do with how the defense defends the pick and roll, how they box out, and how much penetration they yield.

      There’s no way to improve his usage without dramatically lowering his efficiency because he’s proven to be a poor low-post player nor can he shoot….It’s all contingent on the defense

      There’s no real cogent plan to improve his usage… He’s already featured as the primary roller… and while he’s an amazing finisher, he doesn’t catch the ball all that well in traffic, and he’s pretty easy to defend most of the time given his limitations… That’s part of the reason you see so many turnovers in the paint…. It gets congested in there, passing windows are tight…

      One place I really like seeing Chandler at time is in the mid-post or on the elbow feeding Melo in the low post… That’s a really effective high low if Melo is playing the 4 because Chandler effectively clears the paint out….

    123. 2FOR18

      dogrufus: You mean vise-like. Although I guess Shump’s jaws are nasty enough to qualify as vice as well.

      Actually it’s Ill Will with the vice-like jaws.

      signed,
      David Lee

    124. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland:
      How does James Harden do it????

      I just came here to post his line for today…

      5-6, 7-7 free throws, 1-1 3pts, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 1 turnover, 18 points, +24…

      is the Harden – Carmelo thing still going on or is it officially dead?

    125. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: I just came here to post his line for today…

      5-6, 7-7 free throws, 1-1 3pts, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 1 turnover, 18 points, +24…

      is the Harden – Carmelo thing still going on or is it officially dead?

      Really, that’s the only reason you jumped into the thread? interesting.

      No one could have expected James Harden to be the most efficient scorer in the NBA this year. So, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove.

    126. Spree8nyk8

      Z: Haha. yeah, Jon has turned his sights on others… (also, Ruru’s imported optimism has made your “we’re going to sweep the celtics in the first round” prediction seem merely cautiously optimistic :)

      I don’t think even I said we were going to sweep them lol. I’m not 100% on that but I don’t think I said sweep lol.

    127. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: Really, that’s the only reason you jumped into the thread? interesting.

      No one could have expected James Harden to be the most efficient scorer in the NBA this year. So, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove.

      no, it’s not the only reason, I’ve been out all day long and just saw that line, and remembered the silly discussion about how Melo would have a better TS% than Harden by the end of the season.

      no one saw him as the most efficient scorer in the league, but he had a .598 TS% last year, which is much better than any Carmelo season, so all indications were there.

      I’m not trying to prove any point here, chill out man… just commenting on that, everyone makes bad predictions once in a while.

    128. limpidgimp

      ruruland: One place I really like seeing Chandler at time is in the mid-post or on the elbow feeding Melo in the low post… That’s a really effective high low if Melo is playing the 4 because Chandler effectively clears the paint out…

      You’re referring to what they’ve gotten Chandler doing recently right?

    129. limpidgimp

      ruruland: Unfortunately, defenses don’t like to give up layups, especially to teams that can’t shoot 3s.

      The only way you’re going to get Tyson to score efficiently is by penetration… period.

      Chandler scores because he gets spoonfed dunks and attacks the board for putbacks.

      Announcers and articles have pointed to Chandler’s high FG%/TS%/eFG%, which is the highest in the league but it’s a pretty flimsy stat since Chandler is getting, as you say, ‘spoonfed.’ That’s not to take anything away from him, but just to say that stat is more an indicator of guard play and running more PnR than the “efficiency” of Chandler’s scoring per se.

      Lazy stat-citing sports writers also pay too much attention to Lin’s TO count. It’s now a truism that he is a good player but turns the ball over too much. There’s so much context ignored by the TO stat. Lin still makes bad decisions/executions as a passer but, as another poster mentioned, the kinds of turnovers he commits have changed. Less of the kind that leads to easy transition baskets, leaving more that are the result of trying to get the ball to someone in the paint. The kind of turnovers that, while not resulting in points, are related to successful penetration, which in the game as a whole leads to many positives for offense.

      Like TOs, the assist stat also flattens context. Rondo is averaging 10 assists per game. Not to take anything from his great PG skills, but he gets the benefit of more assists from straightforward spot up and shoot baskets. The way assists are counted, I think most baskets that go in within two dribbles are considered assisted, even if the passer didn’t do much to set up the play. (And even if the shooter relied heavily on his own abilities within the two dribbles to score, such as doing a head fake, fade away, side step, etc.)

    130. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida:

      no one saw him as the most efficient scorer in the league, but he had a .598 TS% last year, which is much better than any Carmelo season, so all indications were there.

      That wasn’t the argument. I proposed that Melo would have a higher TS% from the all-star break forward, not that Melo would finish with a higher TS% overal.

      it’s an important distinction, and I had many well-founded reasons for thinking so. I figured Harden would play around that .600 level moving forward. it implictly acknowledged the third year jump because even at the 600 level post AS break, we’re looking at a sginficant third year jump with his pre-AS break numbers.

      My Melo argument was based on a number of factors, none of which has come to fruition yet, but nonetheless, the same factors I believe will allow Melo to have his most efficient offensive seasons surrounded by this personnel and combinations of talent.

      I still think the floor needs to be better spread, but that this personnel has the ability to eventually do that.

      Playing alongside a screen-setter like Chandler, a mid-range shooter like Amar’e, and most importantly a driving pnr point guard — in an up-tempo system—will eventually allow Melo to play his best ball ever.

      the myriad factors playing into his severe underperformance are those that likely won’t remain or be repeated moving into the future.

      We’ve seen Melo have an 100 game stretch with a TS in the 575 range. Certain conditions allowed him to shoot at that level– namely a pass-first pg. I think Lin can still become that player, and everything else around him is more conducive to those higher efficiency numbers. I could go on, but I’d rather not dive back into those things at the current time.

      If Owen truly saw Harden as a 620+ TS guy, well, I take my hat off to him. But I don’t remember seeing…

    131. ruruland

      limpidgimp: You’re referring to what they’ve gotten Chandler doing recently right?

      YEah, something the previous coach, unwilling to break out of his very limited comfort zone, would have tried.

    132. ruruland

      limpidgimp:

      Like TOs, the assist stat also flattens context. Rondo is averaging 10 assists per game. Not to take anything from his great PG skills, but he gets the benefit of more assists from straightforward spot up and shoot baskets. The way assists are counted, I think most baskets that go in within two dribbles are considered assisted, even if the passer didn’t do much to set up the play. (And even if the shooter relied heavily on his own abilities within the two dribbles to score, such as doing a head fake, fade away, side step, etc.)

      I’ve seen so much variation in how scorekeepers tally assists I have no idea if they’re actually following any guidelines or not.

      I agree on the idea with Lin. But I must say that there’s big difference between how the two players drive. Lin drives to score. Rondo drives to probe and kick, which makes his scoring easier. I truly believe Lin will learn this as well. If he can improve his ballhandling, he’ll learn to bring the ball back out to the midrange area after his original foray in. The defense typically isn’t going to rotate back out to shooters once they’ve collapsed, and Lin will have an open shot, too.

      You can’t undervalue penetration, and it’s true that a lot of Lin’s turnovers come from passes into congestion. But they also result from a hesitancy to pass to the opening when the defense initially collapses, instead Lin moves to get all the way to the rim and THEN finds himself in trouble without a passing lane.

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