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Friday, October 31, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 20 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Woodson injects defense, hope into Knicks (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 04:01:30 GMT)
    The Knicks were back at practice on Monday morning. A little more bounce in their steps thanks to a three-game win streak that coincides with Mike Woodson taking over for Mike D’Antoni.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Melo man turns serious (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 03:55:40 GMT)
    THE KNICKS have been perfect under Mike Woodson in just about every way imaginable â?? defense, offense and, most importantly, record.

  • [New York Post] Knicks phenom not Lintimidated by learning new system (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 02:19:26 -0500)
    With Mike Woodson now in charge, this is really the fourth different offense Jeremy Lin has had to learn in the past few months. Lin started training camp with the Warriors, briefly moved to the Rockets, then had to immerse himself in Mike D’Antoni’s offense and now has…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Melo welcomes criticism (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 01:48:48 -0500)
    There have been occasions when the Knicks will be watching film and Mike Woodson will essentially shred Carmelo Anthony non-stop â?? a relentless critique of the Knicks star.
    “After the film session, he’ll say, â??Did you like that?’ â? Anthony said yesterday. “It goes hand in hand. But I accept that…

  • [New York Times] Cavaliers 105, Nets 100: Thompson’s Career-High 27 Leads Cavaliers Past Nets (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 04:25:11 GMT)
    Tristan Thompson also grabbed 12 rebounds and gave Cleveland the lead with 1:11 to go in Monday night’s victory over the New Jersey Nets.

  • [New York Times] 76ers 105, Bobcats 80: Holiday and Young Lead 76ers Past Bobcats (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 03:39:06 GMT)
    Jrue Holiday and Thaddeus Young had 20 points apiece as the 76ers defeated the Bobcats on Monday night to sweep the three-game season series between the teams.

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Sixers Roll Past Bobcats (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 03:30:57 GMT)
    Jrue Holiday had 20 points and 6 assists as the first-place Philadelphia 76ers defeated the host Charlotte Bobcats, 105-80, to end a three-game losing streak.

  • [New York Times] Timberwolves Beat Warriors to End 3-Game Slide (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 05:40:27 GMT)
    Kevin Love banked in a 16-foot jumper with 4 minutes left, then added an insurance tip-in off a miss by J.J. Barea to help the Minnesota Timberwolves keep their dimming playoff hopes alive with a 97-93 win over the Golden State Warriors on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Nowitzki Leads Mavericks Over Nuggets 112-95 (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 05:28:22 GMT)
    Dirk Nowitzki had 33 points and 11 rebounds, Brandan Wright scored 15 points and the Dallas Mavericks beat the Denver Nuggets 112-95 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Williams Leads Minnesota Past Miami 78-60 in NIT (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 04:10:08 GMT)
    Rodney Williams scored 21 points to lead Minnesota to a 78-60 victory over Miami in a second round NIT game Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Boozer’s Big Night Leads Bulls Over Magic 85-59 (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 03:04:16 GMT)
    Carlos Boozer scored 24 points and had 13 rebounds, John Lucas scored 20 points off the bench and the Chicago Bulls beat the Orlando Magic 85-59 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Allen and Celtics Hold Off Hawks 79-76 (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 05:01:43 GMT)
    Ray Allen hit two 3-pointers in Boston’s 13-0 run in the fourth quarter and protected the lead with two free throws in the final seconds as the Boston Celtics held on to beat the Atlanta Hawks 79-76 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Redd Scores 25 and Surging Suns Beat Rockets (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 05:03:01 GMT)
    Michael Redd scored a season-high 25 points off the bench and the Phoenix Suns beat the Houston Rockets 99-86 on Sunday night for their fourth straight win.

  • [New York Times] On Basketball: Mike Woodson on Honeymoon as Knicks Interim Coach (Tue, 20 Mar 2012 05:30:16 GMT)
    The Knicks’ 3-0 start under the interim coach Mike Woodson could turn on a dime; such early success is as fickle as a reality-show marriage.

  • 139 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 20 2012)

    1. Mulligan

      Just curious, Mike: how do the articles get picked to make it into the morning news post? Is it an algorithm or are they handpicked? Every now and then there are articles (like the NIT article) that don’t seem to fit.

    2. Mike Kurylo Post author

      I don’t remember what I coded. I think it searches the internet for all articles & presents them to a group of rotating human subjects (mostly prisoners & the insane). Then it monitors the pupils, heart rate, and sweat glands of the control group, compensating for the temperature, humidity and tilt of Earth’s axis. It takes that data then tests it on a second group, while the articles are read by our own actor extraordinaire Robert Silverman, in the style of Japanese Kabuki. An articles given a score of .76 or higher are then selected & presented here.

      Either that or it just takes a couple of RSS feeds and processes them, so however the local site tags them determines if they show up here. I forget which method I used.

    3. Mike Kurylo Post author

      BTW I love how the Daily News article mixes the writer’s anti-D perception of Mike D’Antoni with actual facts that the Knicks D was good under D’Antoni. It’s almost like he just wants to write that now that Woodson is the coach, the Knicks are going to play some defense, except he trips all over himself because Woodson says that the Knicks D was 10th when D’Antoni left.

      That’s professional hackery right there folks. It doesn’t get much better than that.

    4. Nick C.

      Mulligan: Sometimes I find Bethlehem Shoals hard to follow, but I really liked his recent piece on D’Antoni: http://theclassical.org/articles/the-many-evils-of-mike-dantoni

      Nice link. In a way the article was wierd because it seems to imply the “system” was really more using Nash and Matrix to best suit their abilities, which is something D’Antoni was criticized for here. Also almost as a throwaway it eends by saying the Melo of the Olympics was not the Melo of the Knicks. That seems like an odd thing to expect considering the rest of the Knicks roster. Be that as it may it is a much more well thought out piece on D’antoni’s offense than the lazy “speedball” that seems to have caught on among the beat writers (and not just Berman).

    5. Frank

      Mike Kurylo:
      BTW I love how the Daily News article mixes the writer’s anti-D perception of Mike D’Antoni with actual facts that the Knicks D was good under D’Antoni. It’s almost like he just wants to write that now that Woodson is the coach, the Knicks are going to play some defense, except he trips all over himself because Woodson says that the Knicks D was 10th when D’Antoni left.

      Yeah, it’s like all the talking heads on radio talking about how the offense has been “reined in” under Woodson which is why they’re scoring better and turning the ball over less. They’re running the SAME OFFENSE. They’re running the SAME DEFENSE (although looks like less switching?). They’re just trying a lot harder.

    6. Bruno Almeida

      Frank: Yeah, it’s like all the talking heads on radio talking about how the offense has been “reined in” under Woodson which is why they’re scoring better and turning the ball over less. They’re running the SAME OFFENSE. They’re running the SAME DEFENSE (although looks like less switching?).They’re just trying a lot harder.

      yeah, sports analysts tend to be this stupid sometimes.

      it’s just a matter of a team that was fed up with its coach finally trying hard and doing the right things.

      this team without Carmelo and Amare was doing the very same thing for D’Antoni during Linsanity… when they came back, the balance was no longer the same, and D’Antoni clearly wasn’t able to manage the egos and personalities on this team in a way that motivated everybody, including Melo and Amare, to buy in.

      Woodson so far has been able to do it, but who can surely say that they bought in with his approach? I still think that a team that was so quick to turn against a coach who’s had some success in his career would definitely do the same against Woodson if the same issues arose.

      I get the whole “Woodson can be a father figure to Carmelo” argument, but he had a playerin Atlanta who similarly had trouble motivating himself to do the right things on the court (Josh Smith) and he had success for less than a full season with him (that one season when he stopped chucking 3’s and, obviously, had his best year so far).

      all things considered, I’m not optimistic Woodson can sustain it.

    7. jon abbey

      the Daily News has been entirely worthless for decades, it’s amazing to me that it is still in business in 2012 (and this from someone who bought three print papers every day for years and still buys the Post every day).

    8. Nick C.

      Mike Kurylo: BTW I love how the Daily News article mixes the writer’s anti-D perception of Mike D’Antoni with actual facts that the Knicks D was good under D’Antoni. It’s almost like he just wants to write that now that Woodson is the coach, the Knicks are going to play some defense, except he trips all over himself because Woodson says that the Knicks D was 10th when D’Antoni left. That’s professional hackery right there folks. It doesn’t get much better than that.

      It seems like he puts the quote in there then completely ignores it. Most people can’t be confused with the facts or reality when it doesn’t agree with their previously arrived at conclusion. Hence an otherwise bright guy at my job says “they don’t play defense” when we chatted about the resignation/firing. It’s OK from a guy dealing with a real job annd family but from these clowns that are supposed to do this for a living and enlighten or whatever it sux.

    9. Juany8

      One reason I think the Knicks are capable of sustaining this run is that it really has very little to do with Woodson. Though the Knicks were losing, they showed they were right there in every game against some of the best teams in the NBA, there was just always something that went wrong in the worst possible way. When the Knicks had a good offense, they’d get screwed by the refs or get lazy on defense. When they had a big lead, they’d give it away through ridiculous turnovers and lob attempts (Lin needed to be told to calm down a bit lol, I still think he got too much freedom too fast). Adding up the fact that no one could hit a jumper or a free throw (except Novak), and these losses all seemed very fixable. They were never overmatched, and at times looked like the better team. Add up the fact that Woodson is tweaking the offense away from “stand Anthony in the corner and Amar’e at the elbow and ask them to stand there half the game” (while still keeping many of the general spacing principles) and demanding a bit more accountability, and this team might really be poised to make a leap. No matter what’s happened so far, our last 3 wins have been very impressive and all 3 have come without unsustainable performance from anyone. (In fact no one really had that good a stretch of games)

    10. jon abbey

      that’s the thing, all we needed from a coach is someone who is consistently paying attention and trying. D’Antoni really seemed like he stopped doing that at some point, and it’s not a surprise much of his team followed suit.

    11. limpidgimp

      Woodson’s substitutions are more timely and responsive to what is happening in the game.

    12. d-mar

      Regarding the press, there was also that ridiculous stuff going around about how the Knicks were doing great during Linsanity without their 2 stars, then Melo comes back and says “this is my team” and they go on a 6 game losing streak. Completely ignores that the schedule got way tougher and teams figured out how to play Lin.

    13. Z

      d-mar:
      Regarding the press, there was also that ridiculous stuff going around about how the Knicks were doing great during Linsanity without their 2 stars, then Melo comes back and says “this is my team” and they go on a 6 game losing streak. Completely ignores that the schedule got way tougher and teams figured out how to play Lin.

      Yeah, but that’s not really press driven. It’s like when Marbury claimed to the best PG in the league, then proceeded to lose something like 12 out of 15 games leading to Lenny Wilkens’ “resignation”. Sure, the schedule got harder, but good teams can beat a good team if you give them 6 tries, and if Carmelo says “it’s my team” and then proceeds to play like shit for 6 straight losses, of course the media is going to run with it.

    14. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Short of affecting the idiots who run franchises and galvanizing support or dissent among the mouth-breathing fans who are convinced that points per game is the best indicator of player value, it really doesn’t matter what the media has to say about things. A team that loses six games in a row after its “star players” come back from injury is never going to make the conference finals. And if you’re paying two guys max money and have just about no chance of making the conference finals short of a multi-injury streak of luck that leaves LeBron, Wade, Rose, Noah, Howard, Anderson, et al. out of the playoff hunt, you probably gave money to the wrong guys.

    15. massive

      I think D’Antoni’s shortcoming wasn’t the X’s and Os; it was motivation. He couldn’t get the guys to play hard. I remember watching the 76ers game and thinking how much more I cared about this game than the team exhibited through their play. Against the Pacers, they really clamped down on defense, ran the offense (as in not as many east-west passes on the perimeter), and exerted energy in a game where they blew the same team out the night before. The Woodson Knicks, so far, have underestimated nobody and have imposed their will on other teams. Watching the Knicks play under D’Antoni, they seemed condescending early on in games and then teams would punch us in the face in the 3rd quarter. I guess D’Antoni stepping down was for the better, but it wasn’t because of his system on either side of the court.

    16. massive

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Short of affecting the idiots who run franchises and galvanizing support or dissent among the mouth-breathing fans who are convinced that points per game is the best indicator of player value, it really doesn’t matter what the media has to say about things. A team that loses six games in a row after its “star players” come back from injury is never going to make the conference finals. And if you’re paying two guys max money and have just about no chance of making the conference finals short of a multi-injury streak of luck that leaves LeBron, Wade, Rose, Noah, Howard, Anderson, et al. out of the playoff hunt, you probably gave money to the wrong guys.

      I’m just wondering, did you consider the Dallas Mavericks to be a legitimate contender last year? The game of basketball is played on the hardwood and recorded on the stat sheets. I like our chances to get to the conference finals if the team keeps up this effort. We don’t have numbers that quantify that the Knicks, who’ve kept to the same philosophy on both ends, have been playing better than they have all season due to hustle and a greater sense of “chemistry”.

      Are Melo and Amar’e overpaid? Yes. But let’s have a little faith in them since they aren’t going anywhere and they’re big reasons why you’d be hard-pressed to find a more talented team in the league this year.

    17. New Guy

      Mulligan:
      Sometimes I find Bethlehem Shoals hard to follow, but I really liked his recent piece on D’Antoni: http://theclassical.org/articles/the-many-evils-of-mike-dantoni

      Great link.

      I particularly liked this conclusion at the end:

      “the problem with the Knicks might not have been D’Antoni’s refusal to compromise, or Melo’s inflexibility as a player, but the coach’s dismal realization that the player he thought he knew wasn’t in the building. Brokering a peace is tough but necessary. What do you do, though, when faced with the possibility of having to solve a problem you think you’ve already dealt with?”

    18. New Guy

      To answer the question Shoal posed to himself:

      You find out if your owner is open to the idea of trading him if you’re right. And when you find out he is married to Melo regardless of whether or not he is the player you thought you were getting or not, you quit.

    19. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      massive: I’m just wondering, did you consider the Dallas Mavericks to be a legitimate contender last year? The game of basketball is played on the hardwood and recorded on the stat sheets.

      Dallas won 57 games and had the third highest SRS in the league last year behind the East champs Miami and the team they beat in the Conference Finals, the Bulls. If people didn’t consider the Mavs a legitimate contender, it was because they weren’t paying enough attention to the stat sheet.

      And I don’t have to have faith in players because they wear a particular jersey. I don’t have to support the team’s awful front office decisions, and I certainly don’t have to believe that Carmelo is significantly — and we’re talking by a large margin — better than his stats suggest. I also don’t have to believe that the vast majority of coaches make any difference on a team’s success beyond playing statistically efficient players more often than those who are not. I don’t have to believe that Shumpert was the best draft choice for the team (he wasn’t), nor do I have to believe that Chandler is overpaid because he doesn’t score 20 points per game. I’d rather invest my faith in the stats, however flawed, than my subjective assumptions, which I know to be significantly more flawed.

      I mean, LeBron’s got a point guard who barely has to handle the ball and is posting an absolutely ridiculous TS% in his relatively limited role. Now he wants to sign Fisher, who’s got a .479 TS% and has a TOV% just a few points below Lin’s. This is a fifteen year veteran who can’t shoot the ball and can’t handle it, either. Even the best players are wrong about evaluation.

      The team’s athletic, but not good at basketball. This is a team that people were calling for 41 wins from this year. They’re 21-24 and will likely end the season at .500. This is not exactly an indicator of a…

    20. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: heh, no. you are really a self-parody, but I think you relish that role.

      Thanks for the insult. Try again when you actually have a decent foundation for an argument.

    21. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Thanks for the insult. Try again when you actually have a decent foundation for an argument.

      heh, like a Wikipedia link? there’s no reason for me to repeat the same ground over and over with someone who thinks that five Kenneth Faried’s would make a championship team.

    22. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’d rather invest my faith in the stats, however flawed, than my subjective assumptions, which I know to be significantly more flawed.

      I’d recommend trying to improve your subjective assumptions, which may actually involve looking less at numbers (gasp!).

    23. massive

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Dallas won 57 games and had the third highest SRS in the league last year behind the East champs Miami and the team they beat in the Conference Finals, the Bulls. If people didn’t consider the Mavs a legitimate contender, it was because they weren’t paying enough attention to the stat sheet.

      And I don’t have to have faith in players because they wear a particular jersey. I don’t have to support the team’s awful front office decisions, and I certainly don’t have to believe that Carmelo is significantly — and we’re talking by a large margin — better than his stats suggest. I also don’t have to believe that the vast majority of coaches make any difference on a team’s success beyond playing statistically efficient players more often than those who are not. I don’t have to believe that Shumpert was the best draft choice for the team (he wasn’t), nor do I have to believe that Chandler is overpaid because he doesn’t score 20 points per game. I’d rather invest my faith in the stats, however flawed, than my subjective assumptions, which I know to be significantly more flawed.

      I’m not saying you have to do anything. I’m not even suggesting Carmelo or Amar’e are elite basketball players (or even close) because they just aren’t. I’m just saying that while statistics can tell a large part of the story, they don’t tell the entire story. I find it easier to just watch the games and hope my team wins. I hope that even though Carmelo and Amar’e can’t affect the game like LeBron and Wade can, you still root for the team because sometimes you seem like a fan of your opinion. We are Knicks’ fans, right?

    24. massive

      “There have been occasions when the Knicks will be watching film and Mike Woodson will essentially shred Carmelo Anthony non-stop — a relentless critique of the Knicks star.”

      This makes me happy.

    25. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Thanks for the insult. Try again when you actually have a decent foundation for an argument.

      You make it impossible to have a real argument because you pretend that statistical evidence is equivalent to fact. In other words, if someone disagrees with you, it’s not because they have a problem with your point but because they don’t understand reality, which can be neatly defined by linear correlations taught in high school apparently. I firmly believe statistical analysis (at least things like WP and WS) has the entire core concept of basketball wrong beginning with the simple assumption that each player is a linearly independent variable that can be simply added up to define the team’s expected value. Each player’s production is not linearly independent of each other, which means it is statistically wrong to add up their expected value to attain the team’s value. It’s just bad math, or bad understanding or the physical world, take your pick.

      So what’s the solution if there is no objective definition of value on which to base player decisions? Gather as much information as humanly possible and spend as much time just studying it as you can. That includes scouting, advanced video box scores which take into account little things, like say a charge (which is just as valuable as a steal), or how long someone is holding on to the ball per possession. Ignoring most the information available because of “confirmation bias” or because you don’t understand it isn’t scientific, it’s just as limited as scouts who praise a college player because he is “athletic” and “long” while he shoots 38%.

    26. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      “Farieds”, I’m still sleepy and this site needs an edit button.

      +1 It’s so annoying to have to stop and edit each comment before hitting submit

    27. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: someone who thinks that five Kenneth Faried’s would make a championship team.

      I have not and will never make that argument. Try again.

    28. Caleb

      massive:
      I think D’Antoni’s shortcoming wasn’t the X’s and Os; it was motivation. He couldn’t get the guys to play hard. I remember watching the 76ers game and thinking how much more I cared about this game than the team exhibited through their play. Against the Pacers, they really clamped down on defense, ran the offense (as in not as many east-west passes on the perimeter), and exerted energy in a game where they blew the same team out the night before. The Woodson Knicks, so far, have underestimated nobody and have imposed their will on other teams. Watching the Knicks play under D’Antoni, they seemed condescending early on in games and then teams would punch us in the face in the 3rd quarter. I guess D’Antoni stepping down was for the better, but it wasn’t because of his system on either side of the court.

      Hard to argue with that. For 3 years, MDA’s Knicks were pretty resilient – even in rough stretches, they didn’t start sniping, and effort wasn’t a problem. But this year, especially after the All-Star break, the dam seemed to break. Too much frustration, some bad luck, too many changes – it just added up. Hard to to listen to one voice for four years, unless it’s reinforced with a lot of on-court success.

    29. jon abbey

      Juany8: You make it impossible to have a real argument because you pretend that statistical evidence is equivalent to fact. In other words, if someone disagrees with you, it’s not because they have a problem with your point but because they don’t understand reality, which can be neatly defined by linear correlations taught in high school apparently. I firmly believe statistical analysis (at least things like WP and WS) has the entire core concept of basketball wrong beginning with the simple assumption that each player is a linearly independent variable that can be simply added up to define the team’s expected value. Each player’s production is not linearly independent of each other, which means it is statistically wrong to add up their expected value to attain the team’s value. It’s just bad math, or bad understanding or the physical world, take your pick.

      So what’s the solution if there is no objective definition of value on which to base player decisions? Gather as much information as humanly possible and spend as much time just studying it as you can. That includes scouting, advanced video box scores which take into account little things, like say a charge (which is just as valuable as a steal), or how long someone is holding on to the ball per possession. Ignoring most the information available because of “confirmation bias” or because you don’t understand it isn’t scientific, it’s just as limited as scouts who praise a college player because he is “athletic” and “long” while he shoots 38%.

      this plus a trillion. in 20 years, people are going to seriously mock most of the basketball stats currently in vogue.

    30. Doug

      It’s pretty funny how Cock Jowles is more dogmatic and condescending than 90% of the baseball advanced stat community, but it’s all over a field of study that is a drooling toddler compared to the development of baseball stats.

    31. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I have not and will never make that argument. Try again.

      Lol ok! This is someone who backed statistics that says it would be better to build around Tyson Chandler and Kenneth Faried than around Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol this year. Congratulations WS! Or how about WP, which said a team would be better with Landry Fields and Kris Humpries than with Derrick Rose and Dirk Nowitski last year?

    32. Juany8

      Doug: Fine, one Ty Lawson and four Kenneth Farieds.

      In his defense, those are nice players to build around, just not core pieces of a championship team. I’m also starting to think that maybe the fact that rebounding is highly correlated to winning might have something to do with the fact that rebounding is highly correlated to defense. More defense = more rebounds, and some of the best rebounders of all time were also some of the best paint defenders ever. Of course, this means that rebounds aren’t as valuable in and of themselves, they have to be matched with good defense. Which is why Kevin Love and Kenneth Faried rate so well in advanced stats, they get credit for being great rebounders AND defenders, even though they only deserve credit for part of it.

    33. Caleb

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      The team’s athletic, but not good at basketball. This is a team that people were calling for 41 wins from this year. They’re 21-24 and will likely end the season at .500.

      This is pretty far off base. Based on athleticism and basketball skill, this team should have won around 40 (in the short season). That is, if past performance predicts the future. The problem is that several key players (Anthony and Stoudemire, plus Douglas & Fields for the first part of the year) have been dramatically worse than anyone could have predicted. No one has similarly overachieved.

      It looks even worse because of bad luck – the Knicks are 3 games shy of .500, but nearly +2 in point differential. I’d say that’s about 3 or 4 wins worse than the Pythagorean prediction would say.

      Like Owen said the other day, when Melo plays like he did before this year, you can have interesting arguments about the value of shot creation, value of offense vs. defense, how important is the “fit” of players and style of offense, etc.

      But when he’s this bad, it’s moot.

    34. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: So what’s the solution if there is no objective definition of value on which to base player decisions? Gather as much information as humanly possible and spend as much time just studying it as you can. That includes scouting, advanced video box scores which take into account little things, like say a charge (which is just as valuable as a steal), or how long someone is holding on to the ball per possession. Ignoring most the information available because of “confirmation bias” or because you don’t understand it isn’t scientific, it’s just as limited as scouts who praise a college player because he is “athletic” and “long” while he shoots 38%.

      Jesus fucking christ. Did you read the post IN THIS THREAD where I said that statistical analysis is flawed? I don’t argue for positivism in basketball statistics. I do not and will not do that.

      Are you arguing that because basketball is a multivariate system, we have no ways to extract meaning from the box score? That we can’t use the Four Factors (which are taken from a box score, and, unless you also think Dean Oliver and co. are completely full of shit, account for a game’s outcome with terrific accuracy) on the individual level because of the extreme variance in responsibility for, let’s say, a turnover, or the value of a frontcourt steal as opposed to the backcourt variety, or that there’s no way of knowing whether Ray Allen is, in actuality, a good field goal shooter because his success is directly and significantly dependent on the effectiveness of his teammates?

      Basketball is a complex game, but every player has the same set of outcomes: shoot efficiently; draw fouls; force turnovers; retain possession. The variance in individual play is not nearly as wide as you imagine it to be.

    35. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      Basketball is a complex game, but every player has the same set of outcomes: shoot efficiently; draw fouls; force turnovers; retain possession. The variance in individual play is not nearly as wide as you imagine it to be.

      again, creating space for your teammates is arguably the most important skill in basketball and is very poorly measured (+/- addresses it a bit but of course has tons of noise also).

    36. Caleb

      Juany8: Or how about WP, which said a team would be better with Landry Fields and Kris Humpries thanwith Derrick Rose and Dirk Nowitski last year?

      Not to argue the larger point, but I wanted to flag this because his reference comes up a lot… Landry chalked up a .100 WP/48 last year, which – if I understand right – makes him exactly an average NBA player. WP did not suggest he was one of the best players in the league.

    37. Juany8

      To explain what I mean a little better, both Chandler and Faried get a lot of rebounds and are highly efficient, so WS rates them both as stars. However, Chandler is clearly having a much bigger impact on defense than Faried is (seriously, it’s a superstar defender to a crappy rookie defender, it’s a massive gulf), yet the stats don’t take this into account at all. So Chandler’s rebounds match up with his total value because he has defense to match up with it, but Faried shouldn’t get the same credit just because he has the same number of rebounds and a similar TS%.

    38. Gideon Zaga

      Dantoni’s system might not have been the problem but it sure added to injury, I mean think about it, his offense thrives on space, extra possessions and flow. While forgetting that running up every 7 seconds and jacking up shots leads to extra possessions for the opposing team as well, they actually get to rest on defense and it puts pressure on our own defense. No wander Melo quit, the guy who doesn’t like playing defense is asked to play more extra defensive possessions due to ssol. His system is a joke im sorry. He said it himself last year on mike and mike when he was being hosed for his no defense philosophy and the man opened his mouth and basically said at the end of the day, its about scoring more points than the oponent. Thats when I gave up on Dantoni and started my fire him rants, Im surprised it took Dolan this long to let the man go. What a waste.

    39. jon abbey

      Caleb: Not to argue the larger point, but I wanted to flag this because his reference comes up a lot… Landry chalked up a .100 WP/48 last year, which – if I understand right – makes him exactly an average NBA player. WP did not suggest he was one of the best players in the league.

      that is WS/48, WP is the Berri stat that had him as like 8th in the league or something equally nonsensical.

    40. Juany8

      Caleb: Not to argue the larger point, but I wanted to flag this because his reference comes up a lot… Landry chalked up a .100 WP/48 last year, which – if I understand right – makes him exactly an average NBA player. WP did not suggest he was one of the best players in the league.

      Caleb Berri updated the way he calculated WP, last year he said Landry was clearly better than Rose and had an article that declared Kevin Love the statistical MVP of the season. So last year, if you asked Berri, he would have said there is undeniable proof Fields is better than Rose, and he took great efforts to point this out throughout the year. Oh and he had a WP/48 of .237, so I’m really not sure where you got that number from

    41. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      Basketball is a complex game, but every player has the same set of outcomes: shoot efficiently; draw fouls; force turnovers; retain possession. The variance in individual play is not nearly as wide as you imagine it to be.

      And where exactly is your empirical proof that the variance in individual play is not as wide as I think? I see players filling vastly different roles on the floor, some tied to their position, others not, and I see no attempt to take this into account. I’ve seen statistical correlations that showed TS% and USG are inversely correlated, yet no stat attempts to account for this effect. In short, I see a bunch of stats you attempt to present as independent when they are not (and have been proven to not be independent), and I see a ton of faulty math based on that simple TOTALLY UNSCIENTIFIC (sorry, this annoys me) assumption. I’d rather accept that my opinion will be wrong on occasion than have a stat guarantee me I’ll be wrong in the same way every time. The enormous bias present in basketball statistics is almost laughable honestly, and I’d rather deal with the mental bias I can at least attempt to get around. Nothing I do is going to magically turn WS into good math, so why bother with it?

    42. jon abbey

      Gideon Zaga:
      Dantoni’s system might not have been the problem but it sure added to injury, I mean think about it, his offense thrives on space, extra possessions and flow. While forgetting that running up every 7 seconds and jacking up shots leads to extra possessions for the opposing team as well, they actually get to rest on defense and it puts pressure on our own defense. No wander Melo quit, the guy who doesn’t like playing defense is asked to play more extra defensive possessions due to ssol. His system is a joke im sorry. He said it himself last year on mike and mike when he was being hosed for his no defense philosophy and the man opened his mouth and basically said at the end of the day, its about scoring more points than the oponent. Thats when I gave up on Dantoni and started my fire him rants, Im surprised it took Dolan this long to let the man go. What a waste.

      dude, the Knicks have been walking the ball up court all season, D’Antoni’s “system” this year was closer to TSOM (twenty seconds or more) than SSOL.

    43. Caleb

      Juany8: Caleb Berri updated the way he calculated WP, last year he said Landry was clearly better than Rose and had an article that declared Kevin Love the statistical MVP of the season. So last year, if you asked Berri, he would have said there is undeniable proof Fields is better than Rose, and he took great efforts to point this out throughout the year. Oh and he had a WP/48 of .237, so I’m really not sure where you got that number from

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fieldla01.html

      Sounds like Berri has updated his formula to come more in line with reality.

      Gideon Zaga:
      Dantoni’s system might not have been the problem but it sure added to injury, I mean think about it, his offense thrives on space, extra possessions and flow. While forgetting that running up every 7 seconds and jacking up shots leads to extra possessions for the opposing team as well, they actually get to rest on defense and it puts pressure on our own defense. No wander Melo quit, the guy who doesn’t like playing defense is asked to play more extra defensive possessions due to ssol. His system is a joke im sorry. He said it himself last year on mike and mike when he was being hosed for his no defense philosophy and the man opened his mouth and basically said at the end of the day, its about scoring more points than the oponent. Thats when I gave up on Dantoni and started my fire him rants, Im surprised it took Dolan this long to let the man go. What a waste.

      “Pace” isn’t all that hard to understand, even if some radio hosts and posters have a hard time.

    44. Caleb

      jon abbey: dude, the Knicks have been walking the ball up court all season, D’Antoni’s “system” this year was closer to TSOM (twenty seconds or more) than SSOL.

      You know I’d have said that too, but Knicks are playing second fastest pace in the league (96.9 possessions) just a hair behind Denver (97.0).

      For whatever reason, the league average is only a little slower but the fastest teams have slowed down… last year 96.9 would have been 7th fastest. (2010-2011 Knicks were 98.1, also 2nd).

    45. Gideon Zaga

      Still his same green light philosophy still remained, just like his greenlight on everything, the guy was everything goes out there, even though they walked up the ball on offense were they not 2nd in pace all season. A decorated donkey, my friend, is still an arse.

      jon abbey: dude, the Knicks have been walking the ball up court all season, D’Antoni’s “system” this year was closer to TSOM (twenty seconds or more) than SSOL.

    46. PC

      Here is the key stat. D’Antoni was 121-167 W/L as head coach of the Knicks. Circumstances aside, he didn’t win games. He was a dead man walking.

      One key difference with D’Antoni and just about every coach – if someone makes a few bonehead plays, they get subbed for. Mike didn’t care if JR Smith took a dump at halfcourt. He let everyone play.

    47. Gideon Zaga

      Hehehe well said, no wander Melo slept on defense. Who cares? And you know the saddest casualty of his everything goes coaching style – Amare Stoudemire’s defense R.I.P

      PC:
      Here is the key stat. D’Antoni was 121-167 W/L as head coach of the Knicks.Circumstances aside, he didn’t win games.He was a dead man walking.

      One key difference with D’Antoni and just about every coach – if someone makes a few bonehead plays, they get subbed for. Mike didn’t care if JR Smith took a dump at halfcourt. He let everyone play.

    48. New Guy

      Really, you two? This is the kind of argument I usually get from my idiot Bulls friends who were willingly ignorant of the context of D’Antoni’s first two years here.

    49. Caleb

      First off, I agree that MDA really let things slide, especially towards the end. Maybe it was time to go. But Melo? That part of his game wasn’t any better in Denver, with kind of a hardass coach. Stoudemire, who knows, he never played for anyone else so maybe he would have been KG2 in another life where he played for Scott Skiles.

      As to W-L, apart from this year, do you really think the Knicks underachieved for the talent they had? Or the Suns?

    50. JK47

      @49

      No, the Knicks have been playing at a very fast pace all season long. They play the second fastest pace in the NBA, behind only the Bizarro Knicks (the ones that play in Denver).

    51. Juany8

      Caleb: You know I’d have said that too, but Knicks are playing second fastest pace in the league (96.9 possessions) just a hair behind Denver (97.0).

      For whatever reason, the league average is only a little slower but the fastest teams have slowed down… last year 96.9 would have been 7th fastest. (2010-2011 Knicks were 98.1, also 2nd).

      One think to consider when looking at pace is that quick turnovers, or giving up easy buckets, largely skews the stats. When the Knicks are playing bad on defense, it takes offenses a few seconds to score even in half court, and we give up a lot of dumb turnovers that cut possessions short and lead to quick outs on the other side. Until Lin came in, this team did not run all that much in transition and still had a really high pace. Didn’t help that TD had no idea when a shot or pass was supposed to go up. If you go watch the Nuggets, you really see them ramping up the pace as much as possible, they just don’t have as many really quick, dumb possessions that the Knicks are involved in a lot.

    52. Gideon Zaga

      That’s why they are your idiot Bulls friends, we your smart Knick friends no better and don’t make excuses for the man’s first two years. Pat Riley was expected to bring showtime to NY, but he looked out like Moses and realised he didn’t have Magic Johnson so what did he do he used the defensive tools he had and built a team that was built for this town. Stop with your excuses. Admit it the man sucks at coaching.

      New Guy:
      Really, you two?This is the kind of argument I usually get from my idiot Bulls friends who were willingly ignorant of the context of D’Antoni’s first two years here.

    53. PC

      But that’s the whole point with Wins and Losses. Nobody cares about the context after a certain point. It reaches a point where you lose more than you win – you’re gone. So, D’Antoni – when he had normal rosters – didn’t do enough winning. I understanding the roster gutting years – but when did he ever win? The Raymond Felton team was average. Last year’s team with Billups and Melo and Amare was average. You can’t just keep a coach for years and years while waiting for the roster to become amazing. What the hell are you paying the coach for then?

    54. PC

      I’m confused why I should be convinced that coaches like D’Antoni and Karl are good coaches. All I see are teams that don’t ever look like they’re running offensive sets and play mediocre defense.

      The pure fact that they are playing harder for someone else justifies the firing. You’re paying two guys 40 million – so whoever makes them play hard – even if it’s freakin LaLa, have them coach the team. If those guys don’t play hard we suck. That’s indisputable.

    55. Juany8

      Gideon Zaga:
      That’s why they are your idiot Bulls friends, we your smart Knick friends no better and don’t make excuses for the man’s first two years. Pat Riley was expected to bring showtime to NY, but he looked out like Moses and realised he didn’t have Magic Johnson so what did he do he used the defensive tools he had and built a team that was built for this town. Stop withyourexcuses. Admititthemansucks atcoaching.

      He doesn’t suck at coaching, but he is the only coach in the entire league for which you had to pick up specific players for. How many times did someone say they should pick up someone like Lawson so they could “fit D’Antoni’s system”? Now how many times have you heard of a player needing to fit “Rick Adelman’s system” or “Doc Rivers’ system”? Needing a system to succeed is a college level issue, if they only way D’Antoni is a good coach is if you give him a great passing point guard, he is not really fit to be a professional coach. Maybe he can be an “offensive assistant” somewhere, but he needs to stop being described as some offensive genius, there are far better coaches for offense currently in the league, and they also know how to coach details and demand accountability.

    56. Caleb

      PC:
      But that’s the whole point with Wins and Losses. Nobody cares about the context after a certain point. It reaches a point where you lose more than you win – you’re gone.So, D’Antoni – when he had normal rosters – didn’t do enough winning. I understanding the roster gutting years – but when did he ever win?The Raymond Felton team was average.Last year’s team with Billups and Melo and Amare was average.You can’t just keep a coach for years and years while waiting for the roster to become amazing. What the hell are you paying the coach for then?

      I was agreeing with you, that this is how the dynamic plays out, and why the coach wears down. And then I got to the last sentence.

    57. JK47

      The D’Antoni Knicks performed below their pythag prediction every single year he was here, which leads me to believe he was just not very good at pulling out the close games. I think the criticism that D’Antoni is not a detail-oriented coach is a valid one. X and O type stuff in close games against good teams matters.

    58. jon abbey

      JK47:
      The D’Antoni Knicks performed below their pythag prediction every single year he was here, which leads me to believe he was just not very good at pulling out the close games.I think the criticism that D’Antoni is not a detail-oriented coach is a valid one.X and O type stuff in close games against good teams matters.

      yes, he was terrible his entire time here at late game situations and drawing up plays out of timeouts. the Woodson Knicks against Portland had more nice plays coming out of timeouts than I can remember in D’Antoni’s entire tenure here.

    59. Juany8

      PC:
      I’m confused why I should be convinced that coaches like D’Antoni and Karl are good coaches. All I see are teams that don’t ever look like they’re running offensive sets and play mediocre defense.

      The pure fact that they are playing harder for someone else justifies the firing. You’re paying two guys 40 million – so whoever makes them play hard – even if it’s freakin LaLa, have them coach the team. If those guys don’t play hard we suck. That’s indisputable.

      That’s one of the major problems with offensive rating, if a team runs a lot and gets a ton of easy buckets they’ll have a “good offense” even if their half court offense is mediocre. Once you reach the playoffs and more possessions become half court battles, being able to design good sets is far more important than a general offensive philosophy. So is being able to make both offensive and defensive adjustments, both within the game and throughout the series. Karl and D’Antoni are not great at this, I’d take Rick Carlisle or Doc Rivers over both purely for coaching a playoffs offense (ignoring everything else they are better also better at). Let’s not ignore that there are a lot of terrible coaches in the league though, I’d much rather have D’Antoni than Vinny Del Negro haha

    60. Caleb

      Juany8: One think to consider when looking at pace is that quick turnovers, or giving up easy buckets, largely skews the stats. When the Knicks are playing bad on defense, it takes offenses a few seconds to score even in half court, and we give up a lot of dumb turnovers that cut possessions short and lead to quick outs on the other side. Until Lin came in, this team did not run all that much in transition and still had a really high pace. Didn’t help that TD had no idea when a shot or pass was supposed to go up. If you go watch the Nuggets, you really see them ramping up the pace as much as possible, they just don’t have as many really quick, dumb possessions that the Knicks are involved in a lot.

      This is a fair point, but no matter what the Knicks are one of the fastest-paced teams in the league. They only have about 2 extra TOs per game, compared to an average team. Even if their pace was two possessions slower, they’d be 7th in the league. It wouldn’t really come down by 2 full possessions anyway; some TOs are late in the clock and don’t really affect the speed of the game.

      @66 Really? MDA might have a more defined system than most, but is there a coach in the league who DOESN’T want particular players for the way they like to play?

    61. Frank

      You know what’s interesting about Faried – he obviously looks great when he plays, and he’s a monster on the offensive boards. His WS/48 are ridiculously awesome. But:

      All of his minutes this year have basically come in Feb and March. The Nuggets were 14-7 in Dec/Jan, 11-14 in Feb/Mar. Obviously there were injuries to Gallo etc. involved.

      On Synergy, Faried’s PPP-against is almost LAST in the league. He gives up 1.17 PPP when he is considered the primary defender, which is 401st in the league. Note: there are only somewhere between 401 and 450 players in the league. Case in point – Nowitzki basically ate him alive last night. He is too small to guard offensively minded big 4’s.

      At 82games, he is a net + 2.5 points per 48 minutes on offense, but the Nuggets are 8.6 points per 48 minutes WORSE on defense when he is on the floor. What’s more – he is seriously a beast on the offensive boards- the team’s ORR is 38% when he is on the floor compared to 26.9% when he is off. BUT – the team’s DRR is 2.6% worse with him on the floor.

      We are still talking small samples here and with imperfect data- the 82games data in particular looks a couple weeks old – but is it possible he is the perfect advanced stats player but not a great actual player? There is no way for currently available box score statistics to know how good a man or team defender someone is because if someone scores on you, there is no rebound, steal, block, TO, etc. to be measured – it just disappears on an individual stat sheet. For example, let’s say I am guarding Dirk, and he goes 20 of 28 from the field against me and I get the rebound on all 8 missed shots. My DRR is 100%, but the dude still scored 40+ points on me. These are things that Synergy stats (as imperfect as they are) pick up that box-score stats don’t.

      Just my 2c.

    62. PC

      What about Nash’s age-defying numbers? What does that do to D’Antoni’s legacy? I am purely asking – not suggesting anything.

    63. Gideon Zaga

      Oh and your idiot Bulls friends are so spoiled by Tom Thib with the numerous defensive stops and 24 second violations. In case you forgot, there’s a reason they said Defense wins championships. Even Melo who hates defense hates playing for an offensive coach hahaha what a joke.

      New Guy:
      Really, you two?This is the kind of argument I usually get from my idiot Bulls friends who were willingly ignorant of the context of D’Antoni’s first two years here.

    64. Caleb

      JK47:
      The D’Antoni Knicks performed below their pythag prediction every single year he was here, which leads me to believe he was just not very good at pulling out the close games.I think the criticism that D’Antoni is not a detail-oriented coach is a valid one.X and O type stuff in close games against good teams matters.

      I agree on this point – he probably gave away one or two games a year, net, on bad end-of-game detail management. The #s support what we saw. I think on the whole he is a good coach, but that was a definite weakness.

    65. Caleb

      Juany8: That’s one of the major problems with offensive rating, if a team runs a lot and gets a ton of easy buckets they’ll have a “good offense” even if their half court offense is mediocre.

      That’s not a problem with offensive rating, it’s an indication that teams should run more. Too many control freak coaches.

    66. Gideon Zaga

      Ha the Kevin Love argument. Interesting.

      Frank:
      You know what’s interesting about Faried – he obviously looks great when he plays, and he’s a monster on the offensive boards.His WS/48 are ridiculously awesome.But:

      All of his minutes this year have basically come in Feb and March.The Nuggets were 14-7 in Dec/Jan, 11-14 in Feb/Mar. Obviously there were injuries to Gallo etc. involved.

      On Synergy, Faried’s PPP-against is almost LAST in the league. He gives up 1.17 PPP when he is considered the primary defender, which is 401st in the league. Note: there are only somewhere between 401 and 450 players in the league.Case in point – Nowitzki basically ate him alive last night. He is too small to guard offensively minded big 4?s.

      At 82games, he is a net + 2.5 points per 48 minutes on offense, but the Nuggets are 8.6 points per 48 minutes WORSE on defense when he is on the floor.What’s more – he is seriously a beast on the offensive boards- the team’s ORR is 38% when he is on the floor compared to 26.9% when he is off. BUT – the team’s DRR is 2.6% worse with him on the floor.

      We are still talking small samples here and with imperfect data- the 82games data in particular looks a couple weeks old – but is it possible he is the perfect advanced stats player but not a great actual player? There is no way for currently available box score statistics to know how good a man or team defender someone is because if someone scores on you, there is no rebound, steal, block, TO, etc. to be measured – it just disappears on an individual stat sheet.For example, let’s say I am guarding Dirk, and he goes 20 of 28 from the field against me and I get the rebound on all 8 missed shots.My DRR is 100%, but the dude still scored 40+ points on me. These are things that Synergy stats (as imperfect as they are)pick up that box-score stats don’t.

      Just my 2c.

    67. Mulligan

      Frank:

      What’s more – he is seriously a beast on the offensive boards- the team’s ORR is 38% when he is on the floor compared to 26.9% when he is off. BUT – the team’s DRR is 2.6% worse with him on the floor.

      Agree with your general point, but would just argue that, considering how much more valuable offensive rebounds are compared to defensive rebounds, I think this is more than a fair trade.

      On the other hand, if that only results in a +2.5 offensively (and a net -6 overall), maybe it isn’t that big a deal.

    68. Bruno Almeida

      Mulligan:
      “And it was relayed to me that Anthony did things like skip shootaround and hit the showers before D’Antoni had a chance to address the team following games.” Ha. Love how Melo’s still like “I don’t get why he quit.”

      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/14789/its-accountability-time-for-melo

      hahahaha

      it does show the attitude these players have.

      that’s why he’ll never be as effective as the true superstars in the game…

    69. art vandelay

      I don´t think it is fair to say the entire team quit on D´antoni, which is becoming the new narrative (probably spin from CAA backing Melo, like when they tried to claim he told D´antoni to put Lin in, which sparked Linsanity)…they played one of their best games prior to his leaving (despite losing, against Chicago), and really the only one atrociously awful game in which they clearly dogged it was against Philly during the losing stretch….

      If D´antoni thought he had lost the team completely, then why did he offer to stay if a) they offered him an extension and/or b) they traded melo? I believe likely the rift was primarily Melo, as several players seemed upset when D´antoni left…and I doubt anyone during linsanity stretch (e.g. chandler, novak, lin) was thrilled about his leaving. Their clearly was division in the locker room, but the new spin is that D´antoni lost the entire team when I think that is patently false…I think he never had Melo (accepting his system, that is).

    70. ruruland

      Caleb: That’s not a problem with offensive rating, it’s an indication that teams should run more. Too many control freak coaches.

      Loving this discussion. Do you think there’s a reason coaches like to slow it down, even it means they’ll be less efficient overall offensively? Or do you think coaches (perhaps just stupid ones) reign in the offense because of some antiquated notions of what works in basketball?

      I’d much rather have a team that executed good half-court and ran opportunistically off of defense-created opportunities. Hard to get better in the half-court when you’re always pushing through it. Also, is there any correlation between pace and defensive efficiency? Do teams that play fast-paced games play the same kind of defense that slower teams play?

      Look at Denver. They look really good when teams are sort of not quite putting their energy into getting back on defense. That leads to a ton of unscripted, freestyle points, many created by Lawson and the other athletes.

      Now, Denver may not have the personnel to be a good half court team offensively, so they may need to push the ball to score, but you see the issues in the second half when opponents start to tighten up.

      17 and 18 pts the last two fourth quarters in competitive games. I know Denver’s second half scoring is much lower than their first half scoring.

    71. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah please be ready to say the same “if” he beats the Bulls/Heat and wins a championship.

      Bruno Almeida: hahahaha

      it does show the attitude these players have.

      that’s why he’ll never be as effective as the true superstars in the game…

    72. JK47

      @77

      On the other hand Faried is 22 and still a little raw. He played in a podunk conference in college and barely had an NBA training camp, so he has some things to learn. He’s a little small for a PF but I think he has the motor and athleticism to become an elite defender.

    73. Bruno Almeida

      art vandelay:
      I don´t think it is fair to say the entire team quit on D´antoni, which is becoming the new narrative (probably spin from CAA backing Melo, like when they tried to claim he told D´antoni to put Lin in, which sparked Linsanity)…they played one of their best games prior to his leaving (despite losing, against Chicago), and really the only one atrociously awful game in which they clearly dogged it was against Philly during the losing stretch….

      If D´antoni thought he had lost the team completely, then why did he offer to stay if a) they offered him an extension and/or b) they traded melo? I believe likely the rift was primarily Melo, as several players seemed upset when D´antoni left…and I doubt anyone during linsanity stretch (e.g. chandler, novak, lin) was thrilled about his leaving. Their clearly was division in the locker room, but the new spin is that D´antoni lost the entire team when I think that is patently false…I think he never had Melo (accepting his system, that is).

      yeah, everytime I hear this “the entire team quit” I remember Chandler, Lin, Fields and the others killing themselves on the court during the win streak without Melo, and it doesn’t make sense.

      if someone quit, is the ones who came after that win streak, like Melo, Amare, J.R or Baron.

    74. Gideon Zaga

      Wait Dantoni gave post game speeches??? Haha what the hell did he have to say. At least I’m .glad he did something for the 6 million we paid him.

      Mulligan:
      “And it was relayed to me that Anthony did things like skip shootaround and hit the showers before D’Antoni had a chance to address the team following games.” Ha. Love how Melo’s still like “I don’t get why he quit.”

      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/14789/its-accountability-time-for-melo

    75. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: hahahaha

      it does show the attitude these players have.

      that’s why he’ll never be as effective as the true superstars in the game…

      You believe everything you read?

      That person isn’t even a reporter covering the team. He’s a “FanSpeak guy” and Knicks watcher. That’s how far ESPN has sunk — that’s tabloid stuff. No one with journalistic integrity runs with something like that.

      I don’t know if it’s true or not, but if it were, you’d likely hear about it from one of the beat reporters.

    76. Ben R

      I don’t get the argument that since Amare and Melo need a coach to motivate them and push them to play defense and work hard all the time and D’Antoni didn’t do that he was a bad coach. Maybe our “stars” shouldn’t need motivation, maybe our stars should act like grown men and try hard at the job they get paid $20 million a year to do. Amare and Melo make in one day than I get paid in a year and yet I don’t need anyone yelling at me to motivate me to work hard and do my job.

      If Amare and Melo can’t work hard without a tough coach then maybe that’s they’re fault, not D’Antoni’s.

    77. Brian Cronin

      Their clearly was division in the locker room, but the new spin is that D´antoni lost the entire team when I think that is patently false…I think he never had Melo (accepting his system, that is).

      I don’t think it was so much that Melo did not accept the system so much as it was Melo did not accept the system when they were losing. You know, he came back and tried to buy into the system and then they kept losing and losing and losing, so he became frustrated and started to slack vis a vis the system and started to really have a breakdown with his relationship with D’Antoni. Now D’Antoni is fired and Woodson comes in, and Melo once again accepts the system and they’re winning. So he keeps accepting the system. So as long as the Knicks keep winning, I think Melo will keep buying into the system. The guy obviously really really wants to win. He just wasn’t happy about buying into a system that wasn’t getting him wins (although I agree that I don’t think he handled things well when they started losing).

    78. New Guy

      Look I’m not about to rehash what we all know happened in his tenure, the turnover and the roster upheaval and the REAL directive for years 1&2 (hint: it wasn’t to win as many games as possible).

      But to say the “Felton team” was “just average” is flat out silly. It was 28-26 after 54 games and one of the youngest (if not youngest) teams in the entire league. We didn’t know what it was. You know what the Derrick Rose-Tom Thibodeu Bulls were after their first 54 games? 22-34. Suppose we knew everything we needed to know about them, too, huh?

      You can blame a million things on D’Antoni if you want. But his record here, with no context, is not one of them. In year 1, for instance, I happen to think he did a damn good job, taking a 23 win team to a 33 win team while replacing veterans with green players.

      And I can’t believe we’re talking about players tuning him out after 4 years, necessitating a change. The whole team was turned over 3-4 times!

    79. Bruno Almeida

      ruruland: You believe everything you read?

      That person isn’t even a reporter covering the team. He’s a “FanSpeak guy” and Knicks watcher. That’s how far ESPN has sunk — that’s tabloid stuff. No one with journalistic integrity runs with something like that.

      I don’t know if it’s true or not, but if it were, you’d likely hear about it from one of the beat reporters.

      I don’t, but a lot of similar reports came up recently, about how Carmelo wasn’t happy, wanted to get traded, bla bla bla.

      the same way I’m skeptical about the media on this topic, why shouldn’t I be skeptical about Carmelo’s side too?

      of course he’d say he never wanted to be traded and that he always gave 100%, but why should I believe it, when all indications are that he didn’t?

    80. ruruland

      JK47:
      @77

      On the other hand Faried is 22 and still a little raw.He played in a podunk conference in college and barely had an NBA training camp, so he has some things to learn.He’s a little small for a PF but I think he has the motor and athleticism to become an elite defender.

      Elite? Wow, I hear what you’re saying but let’s seem him become adequate first. I just watched his his HoopsHype scouting report and he was not good defensively in college.

      Watching more of him with Denver, he’s just bad. I love the kid, but his size is a killer, his positioning, instincts and footwork blow, too.

      He has good lateral agility, which is easily the most important defensive attribute, but seems out of position a lot. HE can get better, but I’m not sure if he’ll ever be elite. Even as a weakside guy, jumping and blocked shots can be really overrated. I’ll take a guy that can contest shots without jumping out of position…..

    81. Mulligan

      But the thing is, and I may be misremembering this, none of us really came away thinking Melo was quitting during the losing streak. His body language was getting questionable towards the end, I’ll grant you that, but it makes sense to be frustrated. There was some poor effort, but also a lot of close games. Imagine if Pierce hadn’t made that 3. Could have been totally different.

      I think D’Antoni got burned out and I don’t blame him. I think he probably recognized that he wasn’t as into it and rightly left. 2 years of blatant sucking, 4 years of ongoing roster turnover, not having management behind you.. that’s a hard place to be in.

    82. New Guy

      Juany8: He doesn’t suck at coaching, but he is the only coach in the entire league for which you had to pick up specific players for.

      Phil Jackson and “fit the triangle” ring a bell?

    83. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah for 6 million a year he did a damn good job, you are right. Thank you.

      New Guy:
      Look I’m not about to rehash what we all know happened in his tenure, the turnover and the roster upheaval and the REAL directive for years 1&2 (hint: it wasn’t to win as many games as possible).

      But to say the “Felton team” was “just average” is flat out silly.It was 28-26 after 54 games and one of the youngest (if not youngest) teams in the entire league.We didn’t know what it was.You know what the Derrick Rose-Tom Thibodeu Bulls were after their first 54 games?22-34.Suppose we knew everything we needed to know about them, too, huh?

      You can blame a million things on D’Antoni if you want.But his record here, with no context, is not one of them.In year 1, for instance, I happen to think he did a damn good job, taking a 23 win team to a 33 win team while replacing veterans with green players.

      And I can’t believe we’re talking about players tuning him out after 4 years, necessitating a change.The whole team was turned over 3-4 times!

    84. ruruland

      Bruno Almeida: I don’t, but a lot of similar reports came up recently, about how Carmelo wasn’t happy, wanted to get traded, bla bla bla.

      the same way I’m skeptical about the media on this topic, why shouldn’t I be skeptical about Carmelo’s side too?

      of course he’d say he never wanted to be traded and that he always gave 100%, but why should I believe it, when all indications are that he didn’t?

      C’mon man. You honestly think Carmelo wanted to get traded?

      Things were getting bad, but take some time to think about why that would be an insane move on Melo’s part. Look, you have to understand that a lot of the time it’s people around Melo or any star player, that are also trying to manipulate the situation through the press. Every side is trying to do it, even MDA’s. That’s why so much of what is reported by Berman and even Isola, these kind of reporters, is just propaganda from people with varying interests.

      That’s why I would only trust Howard Beck It’s clear he corroborates every sort of sensational “fact” regarding the team.

    85. Mulligan

      ruruland: You believe everything you read?

      That person isn’t even a reporter covering the team. He’s a “FanSpeak guy” and Knicks watcher. That’s how far ESPN has sunk — that’s tabloid stuff. No one with journalistic integrity runs with something like that.

      I don’t know if it’s true or not, but if it were, you’d likely hear about it from one of the beat reporters.

      Actually, I doubt that. The beat reporters rarely share insights from the locker room. I think it would ruin their relationships with the players.

    86. ruruland

      Mulligan:
      But the thing is, and I may be misremembering this, none of us really came away thinking Melo was quitting during the losing streak. His body language was getting questionable towards the end, I’ll grant you that, but it makes sense to be frustrated. There was some poor effort, but also a lot of close games. Imagine if Pierce hadn’t made that 3. Could have been totally different.

      I think D’Antoni got burned out and I don’t blame him. I think he probably recognized that he wasn’t as into it and rightly left. 2 years of blatant sucking, 4 years of ongoing roster turnover, not having management behind you.. that’s a hard place to be in.

      He wasn’t as engaged as he should have been. And you’re on to something…..it wasn’t as though Melo was dogging it, just not giving the extra effort he’s giving now.. The team was losing, and Melo’s always been the ace you give the ball to to break the slump. You think he might be a little frustrated he couldn’t help the team bust out of that losing streak?

      Melo’s picked teams up and turned things around with his individual scoring throughout his career. There are times to stay within the constructs of the offense, and there are times, when that isn’t working, you go to the guy you’re paying a fortune to….

    87. Gideon Zaga

      So what’s the reason to pay the guy 6 million if he can’t yell at a bunch of machines worth 20 million to do their jobs. In a company setting, the 6 million operator will be fired not the 20 million machinery.

      Ben R:
      I don’t get the argument that since Amare and Melo need a coach to motivate them and push them to play defense and work hard all the time and D’Antoni didn’t do that he was a bad coach. Maybe our “stars” shouldn’t need motivation, maybe our stars should act like grown men and try hard at the job they get paid $20 million a year to do. Amare and Melo make in one day than I get paid in a year and yet I don’t need anyone yelling at me to motivate me to work hard and do my job.

      If Amare and Melo can’t work hard without a tough coach then maybe that’s they’re fault, not D’Antoni’s.

    88. ruruland

      Mulligan: Actually, I doubt that. The beat reporters rarely share insights from the locker room. I think it would ruin their relationships with the players.

      That’s true. But that would be one of the times it would seem appropriate. The Times is not going to lose access to Melo or his team if they corroborate a story about the rift, just as ESPN isn’t going to lose it’s access by running the story it did.

      Much worse is being said about Melo in all the rags. The reason the beat reporters didn’t run with it is because it wasn’t true or they had no way of verifying if it was true. I mean, did they not report on the fact that Melo left the locker room early and then came back to speak with reporters?

    89. Brian Cronin

      Why would the Warriors and the Suns be the frontrunners for Hickson? Wouldn’t you think that the Celtics would be able to offer him a lot of playing time? Not to mention that the Celtics are currently in the playoffs and those other two teams are not.

    90. ruruland

      Mulligan:
      But the thing is, and I may be misremembering this, none of us really came away thinking Melo was quitting during the losing streak. His body language was getting questionable towards the end, I’ll grant you that, but it makes sense to be frustrated. There was some poor effort, but also a lot of close games. Imagine if Pierce hadn’t made that 3. Could have been totally different.

      I think D’Antoni got burned out and I don’t blame him. I think he probably recognized that he wasn’t as into it and rightly left. 2 years of blatant sucking, 4 years of ongoing roster turnover, not having management behind you.. that’s a hard place to be in.

      Maybe he just wasn’t a great coach, either. Maybe this was a big upgrade, especially for this roster and the kinds of personalities it has. Not sure anything else really matters.

    91. Brian Cronin

      Also, why in the world did the owner of the Golden State Warriors do the presentation for Chris Mullin himself? Just let one of Chris’ former teammates do it. Bring in Mitch Richmond. Bring in Tim Hardaway. Bring in someone from St. Johns. Don’t do it yourself when you know fans are mad at you for trading Monta Ellis.

    92. Brian Cronin

      @101

      Hickson’s trying to get a contract, so he probably wants to rack up some stats.

      Yeah, but don’t teams typically reward guys who do well for playoff teams? Boston’s frontcourt is so thin he’d get a lot of minutes, right? Think about Tim Thomas for Phoenix awhile back. If you do well for a playoff team, teams will give you some dough.

    93. Mulligan

      Brian Cronin:
      Also, why in the world did the owner of the Golden State Warriors do the presentation for Chris Mullin himself? Just let one of Chris’ former teammates do it. Bring in Mitch Richmond. Bring in Tim Hardaway. Bring in someone from St. Johns. Don’t do it yourself when you know fans are mad at you for trading Monta Ellis.

      Or if you’re Dolan, don’t talk to anyone ever because they will always be mad at you.

    94. JK47

      Ty Lawson
      Age:24
      TS%: .557
      WS/48: .133
      AST: 31.5
      TOV%: 16.0

      Jeremy Lin
      Age: 23
      TS%: .554
      WS/48: .143
      AST: 42.9
      TOV%: 21.2

    95. Robtachi

      JK47:
      Ty Lawson
      Age:24
      TS%: .557
      WS/48: .133
      AST: 31.5
      TOV%: 16.0

      Jeremy Lin
      Age: 23
      TS%: .554
      WS/48: .143
      AST: 42.9
      TOV%: 21.2

      I’m a big Ty Lawson fan, so that comparison makes me salivate. Indulge me, does TOV% or any combination of those rates take into account turnovers created (steals, charges, etc.)? Because that’s a category Lin enjoys a slim advantage in as well.

    96. Caleb

      TOV% is the percentage of the player’s own possessions where he committs a turnover.

      Lin has a very high steals rate, although he doesn’t seem otherwise to be a great defender.

      I don’t really know much about Lawson’s D.

    97. JLam

      The MVP on the Knicks team is not Lin not Melo not Stats its Tyson Chandler. He could be a one way player and just score but he is the complete player playing both sides of the floor

    98. Caleb

      ruruland: Loving this discussion. Do you think there’s a reason coaches like to slow it down, even it means they’ll be less efficient overall offensively? Or do you think coaches (perhaps just stupid ones) reign in the offense because of some antiquated notions of what works in basketball?

      I think most coaches, like most people, want to exert control, so they intuitively favor more play-calling, more coach-directed structure, etc. One obvious example: coaches usually call time out before a last shot, even though there’s tons of data to show this is a bad strategy. (MDA is a constant offender)

      Off the cuff, I can think of great defensive teams that played fast (like the George Karl Sonics) and plenty that play slow.

      Someone needs to crunch numbers (or maybe has) for a more firm idea of the correlation between pace and defensive efficiency.

      One problem with pace statistics is that there is only one number. You don’t get to see how much is a team pushing the pace, and how much is what they do to the opponent’s pace. (e.g. deny the fast break and the easy shot, force your opponent to eat up the 24). A team that always pushes the ball and has a good defense will show a slower pace than a team with an identical offense but a worse transition defense. Although I would say that’s relatively minor – a team can control the speed of its own offense, but only has a limited ability to control the opponent.

    99. jock cowles

      VERY excited for tonight’s game. It feels like the kind of easy home matchup the Knicks tend to inexplicably struggle with and spoil everyone’s optimism. So if they can take care of business like they should, then Woodson is officially my boy.

      Plus, they really can’t afford to lose any ground on BOS/PHI, who both won last night.

    100. Mulligan

      jock cowles:
      VERY excited for tonight’s game. It feels like the kind of easy home matchup the Knicks tend to inexplicably struggle with and spoil everyone’s optimism. So if they can take care of business like they should, then Woodson is officially my boy.

      I love how our expectations are so low that we’re all basically saying “if they can do the seemingly easy thing that they fail to do over and over, then I’ll like them.” Of course, for the past 10 years they 1. Have not. 2. We still come back to them.

    101. Gideon Zaga

      Kobe shot 3-20 in the last game. Yeah and LA fans are killing him saying he’s not a superstar anymore. FaNS!!! Same was said of Dirk early in the season, prisoner of the moment. Leave Melo and Amare alone, I’m glad their best days are ahead and we still got the playoffs coming.

    102. thenamestsam

      Caleb: I think most coaches, like most people, want to exert control, so they intuitively favor more play-calling, more coach-directed structure, etc. One obvious example: coaches usually call time out before a last shot, even though there’s tons of data to show this is a bad strategy. (MDA is a constant offender)

      I also think the fact that most coaches are pretty much “traditionalists” plays some part in this. There are legitimate reasons to think that playing up-tempo pushing the ball may be much more effective now than it used to be. Everything from the 3-point shot to the incredible rise in the athleticism of the players to increased restrictions on hand-checking to increasingly sophisticated half-court defenses have tended to make up-tempo playstyles more effective in my opinion. The game more and more favors this style of play, but coaching staffs and front offices tend to be run by older people who grew up watching the game played a different way, and have been fairly slow to adapt to these changes. In the coming years I do think we’ll see more coaches starting to try out up-tempo systems and pushing the ball more.

      And to the people who say “Defenses win championships” I would remind you that people used to say that in the NFL too (Some people even still do). Then a couple of rule changes, a couple of revolutionary systems, and now dominant quarterbacking play wins championships. Things change, and I do think basketball is more and more going in this direction.

    103. TelegraphedPass

      Gideon Zaga: How do you know?? U……

      How often do athletic forwards have their best years after 30 years of age? Not very.

      Melo possibly has his strongest years ahead of him. His FT% has trended upwards, and he’s moving the ball better than ever this year. I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s likely that Melo has his best seasons ahead of him.

    104. jon abbey

      Ben R:
      I don’t get the argument that since Amare and Melo need a coach to motivate them and push them to play defense and work hard all the time and D’Antoni didn’t do that he was a bad coach.

      he was a bad coach because he was a bad coach, he was bad at utilizing his personnel (he prefers a short rotation, and this team and season necessitates a 10 or 11 man rotation), he was bad at in-game adjustments (with occasional exceptions), and he was bad at late and close games.

    105. thenamestsam

      jon abbey: he was a bad coach because he was a bad coach, he was bad at utilizing his personnel (he prefers a short rotation, and this team and season necessitates a 10 or 11 man rotation), he was bad at in-game adjustments (with occasional exceptions), and he was bad at late and close games.

      I think calling him a bad coach is pretty harsh on him. Did he do a bad job this year? Yes, I’ll gladly agree with that and I do think it was the right decision to fire him, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s a bad coach. Other than this year I don’t think he has ever coached a team that I would describe as under-achieving. Every other year I’d say that his teams records have been at least as good as I’d expect given the talent on those teams. He is definitely a flawed coach, but I don’t think bad is fair. I still think he’s top 10 in the NBA overall.

    106. jon abbey

      thenamestsam: Other than this year I don’t think he has ever coached a team that I would describe as under-achieving.

      I thought someone said his teams underperformed their Pythagorean record every year? that is the very definition of under-achieving, and he was pretty crappy in the playoffs last year, unable to pull out even one close game with some inexplicable moves at the end.

      I’m not damning his whole career, those early Phoenix teams were some of my favorite to watch ever. but right now, this season, for this team, he was a bad coach and I am glad he’s gone.

    107. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: I thought someone said his teams underperformed their Pythagorean record every year? that is the very definition of under-achieving, and he was pretty crappy in the playoffs last year, unable to pull out even one close game with some inexplicable moves at the end.

      Wrong. Also, nice job going with your gut on the pace of the team this year. Real strong analysis.

    108. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Wrong. Also, nice job going with your gut on the pace of the team this year. Real strong analysis.

      heh, as Juany8 said above, “I’d rather accept that my opinion will be wrong on occasion than have a stat guarantee me I’ll be wrong in the same way every time. ”

      any opinions on Faried’s dreadful defensive numbers as cited by Synergy?

    109. thenamestsam

      jon abbey: I thought someone said his teams underperformed their Pythagorean record every year? that is the very definition of under-achieving, and he was pretty crappy in the playoffs last year, unable to pull out even one close game with some inexplicable moves at the end.

      I’m not damning his whole career, those early Phoenix teams were some of my favorite to watch ever. but right now, this season, for this team, he was a bad coach and I am glad he’s gone.

      Agree strongly with your 2nd paragraph, but I don’t think your first paragraph is correct at all. If he takes a team that has 25 win talent and his coaching makes them into a team with a 35 win pythaogrean record, but they only win 33 games I don’t see how you could say that team has underachieved.

      Dantoni’s teams have largely done worse than you’d expect given their Pythagorean records because he’s bad at the small details that help a team over acheive in close games. I won’t debate that. But overall I think he does enough good things that his teams have largely done better than you’d expect given the talent even factoring in those late game weaknesses. I don’t see how that’s underachieving by any definition.

      Was he bad last year in the playoffs? He didn’t do a great job, but it was largely irrelevant in my opinion. We all would have liked to win a game, but I don’t think they win that series with Auerbach, Jackson, Pop or anyone else on the bench, so the point is mostly moot.

    110. jon abbey

      and D’Antoni did underperform the Pythagorean each of his four years in NY, thanks for making me waste my time to look that up.

    111. jon abbey

      thenamestsam:

      Was he bad last year in the playoffs? He didn’t do a great job, but it was largely irrelevant in my opinion. We all would have liked to win a game, but I don’t think they win that series with Auerbach, Jackson, Pop or anyone else on the bench, so the point is mostly moot.

      the injuries probably make this true, but if you win game 1 on the road (in any series), it’s an entirely different series.

    112. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Correlation does not imply causation, bro.

      thank you, bot, nice to see your random sentence generator bring that one up again.

      any opinions on Faried’s dreadful defensive numbers as cited by Synergy?

    113. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      thenamestsam:
      Dantoni’s teams have largely done worse than you’d expect given their Pythagorean records because he’s bad at the small details that help a team over acheive in close games.

      Except that he was really good at those small details in 2004, 2006, and 2007, when his teams outperformed their pythag record. Do you see how ridiculous of a causal argument this is?

      Dudes are constantly talking about how basketball is multivariate and we can’t assign any value whatsoever to stats because of how complex the system is (and a whole lot of other bullshit reasoning that makes no fucking sense whatsoever), yet you’re saying that because a team underperforms their expected record, we should attribute that variance primarily to the coach? Not that pythagorean records are affected by blowout games in which backups play significant minutes, or injuries, or difficulty of schedule with respect to back-to-backs and travel, or a whole host of other factors that distort our ability to interpret the data “accurately”?

      Say all you want about the way that I smugly phrase my arguments, but I’d rather be a prick than be illogical…

    114. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: thank you, bot, nice to see your random sentence generator bring that one up again.

      any opinions on Faried’s dreadful defensive numbers as cited by Synergy?

      I really don’t care.

    115. nicos

      I’d also say that a poor Pythagorean number really doesn’t have much to do with whether you’re getting the most out your talent- if you take a team that should win 25 games and get them to win 35 but lose most of your close games you’ll have a bad rating despite getting your team to over-achieve.

      Also, while Synergy numbers should be taken with a big grain of salt, those numbers of Faried’s are really awful- I think the average ppp allowed is around .9 so if he’s giving up 1.17 he’d be giving back all of his offensive efficiency by getting torched at the other end.

    116. thenamestsam

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: Except that he was really good at those small details in 2004, 2006, and 2007, when his teams outperformed their pythag record. Do you see how ridiculous of a causal argument this is?

      Dudes are constantly talking about how basketball is multivariate and we can’t assign any value whatsoever to stats because of how complex the system is (and a whole lot of other bullshit reasoning that makes no fucking sense whatsoever), yet you’re saying that because a team underperforms their expected record, we should attribute that variance primarily to the coach? Not that pythagorean records are affected by blowout games in which backups play significant minutes, or injuries, or difficulty of schedule with respect to back-to-backs and travel, or a whole host of other factors that distort our ability to interpret the data “accurately”?

      Say all you want about the way that I smugly phrase my arguments, but I’d rather be a prick than be illogical…

      Well I was responding to a comment that said they underperformed it every year. I assumed that included Phoenix, and I didn’t check if that was right. 4 years in a row I agree could be noise. If it had been 9 or 10 years, which is what I thought I was responding to, then I think you’d agree that would be a somewhat different story. I don’t think teams not hitting their pythagorean record exactly is all or even primarily about the coach necessarily, but I do think that a coach can factor into it and if you see a pattern in the data there’s a good chance that might mean something. But since I misunderstood the data being quoted here, it’s a moot point.

      And since I didn’t take one of the positions you attribute to me in your lengthy rant there at the end (I would never say stats are meaningless) I’m not sure your conclusion that I’m illogical is valid.

    117. jon abbey

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: I really don’t care.

      hahahaha, yeah, why would you? oh wait, because it destroys the argument you’ve been making ad nauseum for months.

      when the facts don’t support the WOW numbers, ignore the facts (updated line from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance). :)

    118. Bruno Almeida

      jon abbey: hahahaha, yeah, why would you? oh wait, because it destroys the argument you’ve been making ad nauseum for months.

      when the facts don’t support the WOW numbers, ignore the facts (updated line from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance).:)

      well, I don’t want to be anybody’s advocate, but I’ve never seen THCJ praise Faried for his defense, only for his remarkable efficiency and incredible rebounding, which have both been proven right, albeit still in a short stretch of games.

    119. jon abbey

      Bruno Almeida: well, I don’t want to be anybody’s advocate, but I’ve never seen THCJ praise Faried for his defense, only for his remarkable efficiency and incredible rebounding, which have both been proven right, albeit still in a short stretch of games.

      he’s said that there’s no question that Faried would have been a better fit for this team than Shumpert, which means he presumably believes that Faried and Bibby would be an upgrade on Jeffries and Shumpert. I rest my case.

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