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Sunday, October 26, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 13 2012)

  • [New York Times] Bulls 104, Knicks 99: Knicks Fall to Bulls as Losing Streak Grows to Six (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:04:03 GMT)
    Derrick Rose and the Bulls outclassed the Knicks, who showed improvement but still lost their sixth in a row and fell into a tie with the Bucks for eighth place.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Milwaukee Bucks Beats Nets as Brandon Jennings Scores 34 (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:00:42 GMT)
    Brandon Jennings shot 6 of 11 from 3-point range and contributed 7 assists and 7 rebounds as part of Milwaukee’s third straight win.

  • [New York Times] Celtics Slow Road Woes With Win Over Clippers (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 06:53:19 GMT)
    Before halftime, Boston and the Clippers already had combined for five technical fouls, plenty of rough contact, a few icy staredowns and a running dialogue of trash talk.

  • [New York Times] Rampant Bulls Overpower Fading Knicks (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:03:24 GMT)
    The heady days of “Linsanity” are fading further from New York fans’ memories after the Knicks slumped to their sixth straight defeat with a 104-99 loss to the NBA-best Chicago Bulls on Monday.

  • [New York Times] Love Helps Timbwerwolves Outlast Suns, 127-124 (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 04:53:45 GMT)
    Kevin Love scored 13 of his game-high 30 points in the fourth quarter and the Minnesota Timberwolves outlasted the Phoenix Suns 127-124 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Grieving Jefferson Leads Jazz Past Pistons 105-90 (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 05:17:19 GMT)
    Al Jefferson looked at the ceiling and pounded his chest as he does after every game.

  • [New York Times] Knicks Can’t Run With Bulls, Lose 6th in a Row (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 03:27:48 GMT)
    The heady days of “Linsanity” are fading further from Knicks fans’ minds after New York slumped to their sixth straight defeat on Monday with a 104-99 loss to the Chicago Bulls.

  • [New York Times] Rose Scores 32 to Lead Bulls Past Knicks 104-99 (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 03:17:15 GMT)
    Derrick Rose scored 32 points and the Chicago Bulls beat New York 104-99 on Monday night, handing the Knicks their sixth straight loss.

  • [New York Times] Parker Returns, Leads Spurs Past Wizards 112-97 (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:59:35 GMT)
    Tony Parker scored 31 points in his return from a one-game absence to lead the San Antonio Spurs to a 112-97 victory over the Washington Wizards on Monday.

  • [New York Times] Bobcats Hold On to Beat Hornets, 73-71 (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:44:15 GMT)
    Gerald Henderson scored 15 points, rookie Bismack Biyombo blocked Trevor Ariza’s driving dunk attempt in the final seconds, and the Charlotte Bobcats held on for a 73-71 victory against the New Orleans Hornets on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Jennings Has 34 Points to Lead Bucks Past Nets (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:14:23 GMT)
    Brandon Jennings has 34 points, seven assists and seven rebounds and the Milwaukee Bucks posted their third straight win, 105-99 over the New Jersey Nets on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] TJ Ford Retires From NBA After Latest Spinal Scare (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:26:05 GMT)
    Spurs point guard T.J. Ford abruptly retired Monday following the latest scare to his surgically repaired spine, which once sidelined him for an entire NBA season and hampered the dazzling promise that made him a college star.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: The Disappearance of Dolan (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 01:22:30 GMT)
    A lot has happened to the Knicks — Linsanity, for one — since the last time their owner, James Dolan, was interviewed by any reporters.

  • [New York Post] Knicks fall out of playoff position with horri-Bull defeat (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 04:11:14 -0500)
    CHICAGO — The Knicks can’t get a win, can’t get a rebound, can’t get Carmelo Anthony happy and efficient and can’t make the playoffs if the season ended today.
    With the trade deadline looming Thursday and the Melo-Mike D’Antoni relationship souring, the Knicks would not…

  • [New York Post] Dwight drama set to end … or not (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:59:48 -0500)
    In case the Knicks are unaware, someone might want to alert them Thursday (3 p.m. Eastern) is the NBA trading deadline.
    Yes, once again it’s time for the annual prisoner exchange, though as part of the new collective bargaining agreement, any swap may be blocked by either commissioner…

  • [New York Post] Source: Melo & Mike on rocks (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:12:04 -0500)
    CHICAGO â?? As the trade deadline approaches Thursday, the relationship between Mike D’Antoni and Carmelo Anthony appears to be deteriorating.
    There are several indications the alliance is getting worse, not better, and it seems inconceivable both will be back in New York next season. According to a source familiar with…

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo angry after Knicks lose to Bulls (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:39:00 EDT)
    The Knicks were hoping to rebound from their lackluster performance against the 76ers Sunday, and Monday night they played with more urgency than they have throughout this winless stretch. But the Knicks didn't rebound the basketball and the losing continued.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Melo: 'Losing basketball games sucks' (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 01:32:17 EDT)

    CHICAGO — Carmelo Anthony sat in front of his locker with his arms folded, a blank stare washed over his face.
    His body language said it all. The Knicks are sullen and losers of sixth straight.
    “It sucks,” Anthony later said. “The situation we’re in right now sucks. Losing basketball games sucks. The way we’ve been losing games at the end of the game sucks — not a good feeling right now.”
    It wasn’t so much that the Knicks lost to the Bulls, it was how it happened.

  • [New York Daily News] No Bull: Knicks’ losing streak hits six (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:37:01 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony was disgusted by what he deemed a lack of hustle exhibited by his teammates Monday night against the Chicago Bulls before reaching one important conclusion. “Maybe I should grab an extra rebound and dive on the floor,â? he said.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks need more than tough talk (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 07:22:31 GMT)
    They fought. They battled. In the end, all it got the Knicks Monday night was another loss and a tie for eighth place in the East’s playoff picture as their massive free fall continued.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Baron feels hurt over pal Ford’s injury (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 06:53:56 GMT)
    Baron Davis has reached out to T.J. Ford. The Spurs’ point guard was forced to retire for medical reasons on Monday, just five days after he was injured when Davis knocked into him.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ dramaALL very Lin-volving  (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:32:34 GMT)
    On national television, no less, it had come to this: Highlights of the Knicks’ Sunday loss to Philly began airing on ABC’s NBA studio show. Jon Barry, loading up on the sarcasm, said: “The red-hot Knicks hosting the 76ers.â?

  • 399 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 13 2012)

    1. taylor66

      The way I see it is that the coach’s style doesn’t benefit the “stars” on the team. No way will Dolan get rid of Melo and STAT and I can’t see MDA changing his style to suit them. So we have no choice but to suffer this embarrassment until the coach is changed.
      Too many teams get these superstars and try to fit the square peg in a round hole. If you trade for/sign them then its on the coach to use them to the best of their abilities. We all know how STAT loves the PnR (like he had wit Nash) and we know Melo is best (if not the best in the league) at iso; if MDA can’t see that and then alter his coaching to suit them then he needs to go. His man love of Jeremy Lin is pathetic. Lin will not take the Knickers to a Championship (as we all know he had his explosion against the bottom feeders); The Knicks have decided that their Big 3 is whats gonna take us there with complementary players.
      From what I see BD should be the starting PG because he has the ability to read the game and get the best out of all of the Big 3; whether you go with Landry (offense) or Shump (D) at the 2 would depend on the matchups. We have to use our best assets to win games; we start that by getting them to enjoy playing and not thinging they are second class citizens to a D-Leaguer who has been fortunatel enough to hit a purple patch at the right time.

    2. Nick C.

      Since you decided to put your post all over:

      I think you missed the main point which is two-fold if players need certain plays and systems then are they really “stars” and if Amare needs a PnR while Melo and Iso then how is it the coaches fault isn’t it the guy who decided it was a good idea to have two “stars” with different needs.

    3. Frank

      I feel ridiculous even writing this, but how badly do we miss Jeffries? Jim Cavan via Tommy Beer mentioned this on twitter yesterday – we are 8-0 when Jeffries plays >26 minutes/game. Between his drawn charges, offensive rebounds, and tough D – he is exactly what this team needs right now. Harrellson looked pretty overmatched out there, and his shot is JJ-ugly right now, so he really doesn’t bring much at this point.

    4. Brian Cronin

      Jeffries is back on Wednesday, I think!

      The key thing about Jeffries is not just that he is playing so well (the best season his career by far), but the fact that this team clearly seems to need guys on the floor who are there for their defense without ruining the flow of the offense. Jeffries is totally that type of player.

    5. Frank

      Re: Lin – I thought he played very well last night. He had 1 or 2 bad looking turnovers, but only 3 overall. If our PG “regresses” to 15p, 8 assists, 3 steals, and 3 TOs per game while “harassing” the league’s MVP into a a 29 shot 48.5% TS performance, I can live with that. HE certainly was not the problem last night. When Baron Davis triples your $100M PF’s defensive rebound rate (and BD only had 3 rebounds), that might be the problem.

      What’s so frustrating about Amare is that he doesn’t seem to be able to put together a complete game. He was great offensively last night and probably should have gotten 3-4 more shots. To my eyes, he played pretty good defense. But it’s like when he plays good defense he can’t rebound. When he rebounds well, he’s a sieve on defense. When he drives well, he can’t shoot his J.

      Melo is sort of beyond frustrating to me. I don’t really know what to make of his game right now. I have been cheerleader #2 for him behind ruruland but even I am starting to get down on him.

      Re: coaching changes — I personally would love it if JVG came back. I still have hope that this is just a bad stretch against a very tough schedule and that we will turn it around a little bit in the last 1/3 of the season, but if it’s not, we need a coach that is beloved by his players all while having very close attention to detail. All players have to do is watch JVG being dragged around like a rag doll holding onto Mourning’s leg, or to see him try to get between Camby and whoever and then getting punched out by Camby to know that he will do anything for his players. THis team has way more offensive talent than any team he has ever coached — it just needs his brand of defense.

      Meanwhile I agree for once with Bruno Almeida – I love Rick Adelman as a coach and am quite sad he is off the market. He would’ve been perfect.

    6. Frank

      that being said – I think JVG burned his bridges when he left mid season in 2001. I can’t possibly see him coming back unless we flame out big time this year and Phil tells Dolan to get lost. There really isn’t much out there right now other than unproven assistant coaches and/or college guys.

      I think the NYK fan base would LOVE the return of JVG. He’s the Brian Scalabrine of coaches – like some dude at the bar or at the office who just happens to be playing or coaching in the NBA. And he’s a great defensive coach.

      I guess Larry Brown is always available?

    7. Matt Smith

      Has anyone kept track of what our record is with either Carmelo or Amare in the lineup? I know they’re both under .500, which is laughable, but I’m curious.

    8. Frank

      Sorry I will just keep typing.

      The other thing about JVG – he has had a lot of success in this league, and I think the players have to respect that. Re: defense – his Rockets teams were not great in terms of personnel. McGrady was hurt a lot those years, and Yao only averaged about 50 games/season, which definitely hurt their playoff seeding. Even so – without very good defensive players, his teams were 4th, 5th, 6th, and 3rd in defensive efficiency. In fact, in 10 full seasons as an NBA head coach, his teams have never been worse than 6th in defense. Granted, he has never been a great offensive coach (NYK were below average with him during his entire tenure and Houston was average at best with him) but our offensive personnel is really much better than any of his previous teams.

    9. Brian Cronin

      You’re making me cross-post my comments from the old thread, Frank!

      First, here are the lineups for the three playoff teams JVG had in Houston…

      Season 1

      Jim Jackson
      Cuttino Mobley
      Steve Francis
      Yao Ming
      Kelvin Cato

      SEASON 2

      Tracy McGrady
      David Wesley
      Ryan Bowen
      Bob Sura
      Yao Ming

      SEASON 3

      Rafer Alston
      Tracy McGrady
      Yao Ming
      Shane Battier
      Chuck Hayes

      Only the third team actually looks good, and that team lost in 7 games to a good Utah team (Deron/Boozer). I’d have let JVG build on that squad, but I can understand that his style was wearing on Houston and with Adelman available, they felt they had to make a move. Note that that final squad even finished middle of the pack in offense, a shocker for a JVG team.

      And then this was in response to Jon noting that maybe he underrated JVG a bit…

      Don’t get me wrong, you’re accurate in noting that he is a bad offensive coach. He certainly was a bad offensive coach. He was just such a great defensive coach that he’ll always have a job in the NBA if he wants one. And his greatness as a defensive coach is practically legendary – the only JVG coached team not in the top 6 in the NBA in defensive efficiency was the Knick team he quit on, and I dunno where they ranked when he quit. The best examples of his defensive coaching were when he took a Houston team that had missed the playoffs in 2003 and took them from 14th in DE to 4th, with the same exact roster that Rudy T had and 2000-01, when he took a Knick roster with Glen Rice and a decrepit LJ in his rotation and somehow got them 3rd in the NBA in DE with a DE as good as any they ever had under Riley (it was tied with the best DE of Riley’s Knicks – the 1993-94 team – it was better than the DE of every other Riley-led team). His 1999 team had the best DE of any Knick team since the glory days of Frazier/Monroe/Bradley/DeBusschere/Reed squad.

      Note that if you ever make it to an NBA Finals in your career you are basically set for life as far as always getting a job in the future. If you look at NBA coaches that have made it to an NBA Finals in the past 15 years, the only ones not coaching teams right now are Phil Jackson, Pat RIley, Larry Bird, Larry Brown, Jerry Sloan and Jeff Van Gundy. And all of them are not coaching out of their own volition. The trick is that once you have a certain reputation, it just doesn’t make sense to come back to coach unless the situation is ideal. Jerry Sloan is a perfect example. He could coach nearly any team he wants to in the NBA, he just doesn’t want to.

    10. Frank

      sorry Brian – must have missed the previous post.

      I would love Jerry Sloan but I don’t think there could ever be a fish more out of water than he would be in NYC.

      I just don’t know if Dolan would ever rehire JVG. It HAS been a really long time now, though, and Dolan has to remember that JVG was the last coach that really brought actual excitement (not just hype) to MSG. And he may be a bad offensive coach, but it’s not like our current offensive genius head coach is running an awesome offense right now.

      Just a side note – assuming we make the playoffs, I would really like to play Chicago in the 1st round (much more so than MIA). I mentioned this in a post many moons ago, that despite Chicago’s defensive prowess, that they have always had a tough time defending D’Antoni type offenses whether PHX or NYK. Last night our offensive efficiency was 103.1, which should be enough to beat that team on any non-22-O-reb-given-up night.

    11. KJG

      My thoughts on Amar’e`… and once the contracts are signed I can’t care less about the money… everyone’s overpaid except for JJ, end of story.

      1) he’s worn down physically… injuries, age (29? haha, I’m 29 actually, and I’ve been having some serious hip problems, kinda weird I know. Can you say hip replacement at 30?), whatever else.
      2) melo, yes, melo… i think amar’e is trying and willing to play the team game, but perhaps more so than anyone else, when he’s not moving, whether it be “density”, laziness, or the play calling, he is at this point uselss when he’s not on the move… and unfortunately, when melo has the ball, movement ceases.
      3) he’s succumbing to the dysfunction of the NYK. There has to be a plethora of negative energy in that locker room… take this blog for example… who know’s who hates/likes who… it must seem like a nitemare. Amar’e was never one to be a part of any of the so-called cliques… he just plays the game like he knows how, which i know, we dont like how he plays the game most of the time. it must feel like groundhog day for a lot of these guys.

      Again, forget about the money. I think he’s still a valuable player on the team, willing to sacrafice for the good of the team… he is what he is, but i think he can still contribute.

      and yes, im an amare apologizer… he’s not worth 20mil… this is clear… i still take him on my team in a role that makes sense.

    12. Brian Cronin

      I agree Sloan wouldn’t want the Knicks job, but I think he could get it if he wanted it. I mean, he’s Jerry freakin’ Sloan, and if there’s anything we know by now it is that Dolan is a star fucker and Sloan is a star coach.

      By the way, I love that that is actual analysis (and correct analysis, to boot)

      should be enough to beat that team on any non-22-O-reb-given-up night.

      22 freakin’ offensive rebounds….lordy.

    13. Brian Cronin

      I asked this yesterday but I don’t recall if anyone replied. Whether he will (or whether even he should) be traded, do you think the Knicks actually are testing the waters on a Melo trade or is that not even something they’re even considering?

    14. Brian Cronin

      Also, if it is true that Melo did not want Smith here, do you think that Smith knew that? Or do you think he thought he was coming here to play with his pal, Melo?

    15. KJG

      Brian Cronin: I asked this yesterday but I don’t recall if anyone replied. Whether he will (or whether even he should) be traded, do you think the Knicks actually are testing the waters on a Melo trade or is that not even something they’re even considering?

      I would hope so… I feel like all options should be on the table at this point… Melo or whomever.

      As for the Melo-J.R. thing, I am 100% NOT in the know. If I had to guess, I’d say they are buddies and the feelings were mutual on playing together. Not buying the hype.

    16. KJG

      knickspodcast: I doubt the Knicks are even testing the waters on Melo. James Dolan only cares about selling tickets and that’s what Melo does.

      If this is true, and I understand to some degree it absolutely is, is their something the fans could do about it? Can we organize?

    17. d-mar

      @3 I was thinking the same thing about Jeffries, as the Bulls were coming up with every loose ball and contested rebound. Just wish the dude could stay healthy for more than 2 weeks.

    18. knickspodcast

      KJG: If this is true, and I understand to some degree it absolutely is, is their something the fans could do about it? Can we organize?

      I feel like the only thing that would work is to boycott the games, as losing money is the only thing that will work with him. Unfortunately since it’s NYC there will always be plenty of people filling those seats.

      I think the best bet is to go with Mr. Silvermans idea of getting him drunk at the next JD and the Straight Shot concert and talking him into selling the team.

    19. d-mar

      As this season continues to head down the proverbial toilet, I’ve done a complete 180 on a) D’Antoni and b) Melo. I’ve been a staunch supporter of both on this site, but I’m sick of both of them at this point. And I really think management should be beating the bushes for a Melo trade before Thurs. He looks completely disengaged, and as an alleged superstar, his impact on games has become almost negligible and really, a net negative. If the rest of the league still sees him as a star, then move him. I understand Dolan wants to keep him for marketing reasons, but even an idiot like him has to see that if we were able to bring back a D12 or D-Will, ticket sales and TV ratings would be unaffected. In my dream scenario, we move Melo, fire D’Antoni, bring in a tough ass coach and rescue this nightmare of a season.

    20. Brian Cronin

      My problem with the “The Knicks need Melo for ticket sales” thing is that the Knicks have Lin. Lin made the team a whole ton hotter than they were before Linsanity. To wit, the game against Utah, 400-level seats were going for $25 on StubHub. Those same seats go for $110 now. Before the six-game losing streak, those same tickets were going for $180! So the Knicks would be fine, tickets sales wise, without Melo but with Lin.

      And that is not even taking into consideration the chance that Melo might net them a star.

      Also, finally, we are not even at the point where Melo would object to being traded, right?

    21. KJG

      d-mar: In my dream scenario, we move Melo, fire D’Antoni, bring in a tough ass coach and rescue this nightmare of a season.

      I have those dreams too…

    22. KJG

      ess-dog: I miss the Felton/Landry/Gallo/Wilson/Amare team.:(

      Don’t get me started… I never post here, but it’s been very slow at work so I’ve been posting mostly nonsense lately… I didnt wanna go there, where you just went.

      What I would do to see Wilson Chandler out there…

    23. Caleb

      @16 If we’re playing between-the-lines guessing game, my takeaway is that Melo is a %^&*% for telling a reporter he felt that way (or having his friend tell a reporter). That stuff you keep in house.

      re: trades, Dolan is too dull to realize it, but stars don’t sell tickets – winning teams do. Dave Berri might not have all the answers but he’s pretty convincing on this one (stars raise attendance on the ROAD, but not at home – the only thing that correlates to better attendance is a better record). Jeremy Lin might be a rare exception to this, if the Knicks can actually monetize him by airing games in China.

      All in all, I can understand the total negativity – who likes a 6-game losing streak? – but I am actually encouraged by last night. If the Knicks played that way every night, they’d be a 50-win team. (in a real season). Lost it on the boards, of course. Love Tyson but it wasn’t his finest hour.

      And hey, if they can move Melo in a reasonable deal, how could they say no?

    24. Brian Cronin

      Try not to think of the Felton/Fields/Gallo/Chandler/Amar’e team. That’s what I do. And especially don’t think about how they easily could have signed Chandler this offseason to that team. Don’t you dare think of that!

    25. Bruno Almeida

      Brian Cronin:
      I asked this yesterday but I don’t recall if anyone replied. Whether he will (or whether even he should) be traded, do you think the Knicks actually are testing the waters on a Melo trade or is that not even something they’re even considering?

      I don’t think Dolan will ever consider trading Melo, he probably thinks he’s a superstar, we have been unlucky and he’ll turn it around.

      Dolan knows absolutely nothing about basketball, there’s no way he sees Carmelo as anything other than a true superstar.

      my hope is that some stupid GM thinks Amare still has anything left and picks up his contract out of desperation, but that’s probably nothing more than a pipe dream.

      I guess we’re stuck for this year (and maybe for the next 2 at least, which makes me want to vomit).

      I can’t wait for the day when we’ll be talking about Amare’s expiring contract.

    26. Brian Cronin

      Oh true, Caleb, winning is the biggest incentive for fans to buy tickets. Just noting that even if you want to argue that the Knicks need a “star,” they have one already in Lin.

    27. Bruno Almeida

      they way things have been going for the Knicks on this decade or so, we’ll suck and bottom out exactly on the 2016 draft and gift wrap a top 5 pick to Denver to top it all.

      Daryl Morey has to be laughing so much about getting a high lottery pick on an extra deep draft.

    28. Brian Cronin

      Also, Caleb, here’s the reason why I find it hard to say “if they play like they did against Chicago against most other teams, they’ll start winning a lot.” My problem is that I’ve found myself saying that exact thing about them during the Spurs game (and other tough losses) and then they went out and lost in an entirely different manner against Milwaukee (and other teams). It is like they find new ways to lose each game. They look like they’ve fixed one area only for another area to fall apart.

      But maybe Jeffries really is the key to this whole thing. I guess we have to at least see the full, healthy team play together to know for sure.

      Come on, Jeffries, save the season!!!

    29. Jake S.

      Brian Cronin:
      Try not to think of the Felton/Fields/Gallo/Chandler/Amar’e team. That’s what I do. And especially don’t think about how they easily could have signed Chandler this offseason to that team. Don’t you dare think of that!

      I fear Amare simply doesn’t work as a power forward. The catch-22 is that a team that features him at center is fatally flawed.

      The Knicks are an insolvable Rubik’s cube.

    30. Bruno Almeida

      Brian Cronin:
      Also, Caleb, here’s the reason why I find it hard to say “if they play like they did against Chicago against most other teams, they’ll start winning a lot.” My problem is that I’ve found myself saying that exact thing about them during the Spurs game (and other tough losses) and then they went out and lost in an entirely different manner against Milwaukee (and other teams). It is like they find new ways to lose each game. They look like they’ve fixed one area only for another area to fall apart.

      But maybe Jeffries really is the key to this whole thing. I guess we have to at least see the full, healthy team play together to know for sure.

      Come on, Jeffries, save the season!!!

      I’d rather have Jared taking end-of-game shots on isos right now, at least we would be rewarding a guy who gives 150% every time he steps on the court.

    31. KJG

      Bruno Almeida: I don’t think Dolan will ever consider trading Melo, he probably thinks he’s a superstar, we have been unlucky and he’ll turn it around.Dolan knows absolutely nothing about basketball, there’s no way he sees Carmelo as anything other than a true superstar.my hope is that some stupid GM thinks Amare still has anything left and picks up his contract out of desperation, but that’s probably nothing more than a pipe dream.I guess we’re stuck for this year (and maybe for the next 2 at least, which makes me want to vomit).I can’t wait for the day when we’ll be talking about Amare’s expiring contract.

      Not so fun game… Amar’e’s value on the open-market today?

      Any thoughts… ? I give him somewhere between the MLE and 10 mil…

    32. art vandelay

      @16/27:

      My sense is that pretty much these Melo-related rumors that he didn´t want JR Smith in the first place are just the product of CAA/Leon Rose-inspired spin…CAA alongside Dolan is practically running the Garden now…I believe they rep Warkentien, Melo, JR Smith as well…this is just a coordinated PR stunt after the fact…I bet Melo was instrumental in wanting JR and now that it hasn´t worked out and he posted those pics, he is trying to distance himself (and maybe CAA somehow…I don´t know how….wants to get Smith a nice contract with another club next year).

      These Berman-reported rumors sound eerily similar to when it was claimed that Melo beseeched D´antoni to put Lin in the game, and later D´antoni pretty much refuted them or at least stated he didn´t remember any such thing. MSG is just one big spin camp…remember when it was reported Isiah singlehandedly recruited STAT, then later STAT said he hadn´t even talked to Isiah during recruiting process?

      And now we may wind up with Calipari (another CAA client I might add) as the next head coach next year (because he did such a marvelous job at New Jersey in 90s and we know college coaches have had such extraordinary success in the NBA of late)…I swear that might be the last straw!

      I´m with Jon Abbey: Let´s get that Occupy MSG movement started!!!

    33. art vandelay

      Occupy MSG shirts in our new team colors: tears and bile (or whatever they were supposed to be, can´t recall exactly)?

    34. ess-dog

      At least Amare appears to try occasionally… Melo only seems to care when he’s driving directly into three defenders.

    35. KJG

      art vandelay: @16/27: I´m with Jon Abbey: Let´s get that Occupy MSG movement started!!!

      I can take a train up from Philly on Monday’s and Wednesday’s. See ya there.

    36. Bruno Almeida

      KJG: Not so fun game… Amar’e’s value on the open-market today?

      Any thoughts… ?I give him somewhere between the MLE and 10 mil…

      I’d take David West’s contract as a decent measure… West is a better defender and as bad a rebounder as Amare is, and Amare is better on offense.

      I think he falls between West’s and Boozer’s contract… anything around West’s contract (2 year, 10 mil a year) would be a pretty good price tag, and anything around or higher than Boozer’s (13.5 mil this year, 15 for the next 2 years, 17 on the last one) would be overpaying.

    37. KJG

      Bruno Almeida: I’d take David West’s contract as a decent measure… West is a better defender and as bad a rebounder as Amare is, and Amare is better on offense.I think he falls between West’s and Boozer’s contract… anything around West’s contract (2 year, 10 mil a year) would be a pretty good price tag, and anything around or higher than Boozer’s (13.5 mil this year, 15 for the next 2 years, 17 on the last one) would be overpaying.

      Seems fair… thanks for responding.

    38. KnicksFanInVA

      I wonder the same thing. We should be at least seeing what’s available for someone of Melo’s “star magnitude.” The interesting dilemma is that 1. We fire MDA and go back to Melo ISO-ball with Woodson as coach. 2. We move Melo and let MDA run with Lin. Both scenarios will make money for Dolan. Obviously we can’t predict the results of either, but it’s up to Dolan to decide which will generate more wins, equaling more revenue.

      Brian Cronin:
      I asked this yesterday but I don’t recall if anyone replied. Whether he will (or whether even he should) be traded, do you think the Knicks actually are testing the waters on a Melo trade or is that not even something they’re even considering?

    39. Caleb

      Ok, how about this one?
      http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=83dz75s

      Carmelo to New Orleans for Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman (or Okafor, if you’d rather a player than an expiring deal).

      We’d still have Gordon’s restricted rights, right? And could go past the cap to extend/re-sign? And of course it only makes sense if he passes the physical. He’s got some health issues that make me nervous..

      Or this, a personal favorite:
      http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7vn6h6o
      Melo for Iguodala… adding Lou Williams & Baron Davis for salary match.

      Or this fan favorite…
      http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7totnq8
      Melo for Batum, Camby & Felton (‘s expiring deal).

      Or this, which might feel like revenge…
      http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7jfy4co
      Melo to Houston… Landry Fields to the Pacers… Kyle Lowry to the Pacers… Knicks get Jeff Foster & Paul George from Indy, plus Budinger, Jordan Hill & some expiring deals from Houston.. and we should get our pick back, in this one!

      It’s basically Melo for 3 young players and a pick. You could also tweak it, try and give Bill Walker or Baron instead of Landry. Or a version where we keep Kyle Lowry, if we think he could play next to Lin some of the time.

      Or this..
      http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6rkpyjg
      Melo for Millsap & Devin Harris, each expiring in 2013.

      More of a salary dump…
      http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6u4p4uf
      Melo for Ilyasova, Steven Jackson and Delfino, plus Milwaukee’s 1st-round pick. Beg for another pick.

      And the grand finale!!!! This seems to freeze the Trade Machine, but the salaries work:

      Houston gets: Melo
      Orlando gets: Tyson Chandler, Kyle Lowry, Landry Fields, Thabeet (expiring) & 2012 1st from Houston
      NYK gets: Jordan Hill, Chase Budinger, Jonny Flynn (expiring), Jameer Nelson, 2014 1st from Houston &… Dwight Howard

      In a pinch I guess we could let Orlando…

    40. Brian Cronin

      By the way, as an aside, can I get a bit of an FU to Google for putting Bleacher Report and the Yahoo Contributor Network in their freakin’ newsfeed? Why in the hell would I want to read something some random dude has to say about the Knicks when I’m looking for news about the Knicks! No one comes to our comments section to hear about Knick news, and yet, that’s exactly what Bleacher Report and Yahoo Contributor Network is – only much dumber than our comments section. Argh. So frustrating.

    41. DS

      Here it is Carmelo for Pau Gasol.

      Bring Amar’e off the bench. Kevin McHale embraced it and was two time 6th man of the year.

      Lin-Shump-Fields-Gasol-Chandler Bench: Baron-J.R.-Jeffires-Amar’e, Novak-Harrellson.

      LOVE IT!! I’d even give the Lakers Baron if they’d thrown in Steve Blake. Hell, throw them Billy Walker and Toney Douglas. They could actually use them. Can’t tell me the Lakers wouldn’t love Baron, Kobe, Carmelo, McRoberts, and Bynum with Metta off the bench.

    42. jon abbey

      art vandelay:

      I´m with Jon Abbey: Let´s get that Occupy MSG movement started!!!

      if anyone is serious about this, the first step is to start a site (or maybe a FB page) where we can begin to plan things.

    43. Caleb

      Brian Cronin:
      Also, Caleb, here’s the reason why I find it hard to say “if they play like they did against Chicago against most other teams, they’ll start winning a lot.” My problem is that I’ve found myself saying that exact thing about them during the Spurs game (and other tough losses) and then they went out and lost in an entirely different manner against Milwaukee (and other teams). It is like they find new ways to lose each game. They look like they’ve fixed one area only for another area to fall apart.

      I don’t disagree at all – it’s only one game. But for what it’s worth, it was a positive game, IMO.

    44. DS

      jon abbey: if anyone is serious about this, the first step is to start a site (or maybe a FB page) where we can begin to plan things.

      If our message is trade Carmelo for Pau Gasol, I’m in.

    45. Caleb

      To finish that thought @46…

      …in a pinch we could let Orlando have both the Houston picks.

      On to the Occupy movement!!! “12 Years of Crappy Basketball. We’ve Had Enough!!!!”

    46. jon abbey

      DS: If our message is trade Carmelo for Pau Gasol, I’m in.

      our message is new ownership, anything else is cosmetic.

    47. Frank

      a fair point being brought up in a number of places including ESPN and this column: http://somebasketballthings.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/taj-gibson-takes-advantage-of-new-yorks-focus-on-derrick-rose/

      Maybe the reason Derrick Rose shot 12/29 is because we were over-committing our defense to him, opening up O-rebounding chances. Doesn’t justify 22 offensive boards but at least it seems semi-understandable. Would be interesting to see our DRR with Rose in the game vs. on the bench.

      I was a little surprised we didn’t see more Shumpert on Rose. JJ, when healthy, also would have been very useful.

    48. Brian Cronin

      Shumpert did play Rose well. But he just is so awful on offense right now that I can see why D’Antoni is scared to stick with him (when the rest of the team is struggling on offense, as well – if the other guys start hitting shots then you can carry Shump on O).

      And while I’m sure the Rose deal did lead to some offensive rebounding opportunities, a whole lot of their o-boards were just flat out out-hustling the Knicks/Knick guys just not boxing out.

    49. PC

      Maybe Amare is depressed over the passing of his brother. Depression would explain his blaze effort. When your mind isn’t right about real life things, the last you care about is defensive rebounding on random nights in March.

      Just a thought….

    50. jon abbey

      PC:
      Maybe Amare is depressed over the passing of his brother.Depression would explain his blaze effort. When your mind isn’t right about real life things, the last you care about is defensive rebounding on random nights in March.

      Just a thought….

      how does that explain his terrible play before that?

    51. Frank

      Brian Cronin:
      Shumpert did play Rose well. But he just is so awful on offense right now that I can see why D’Antoni is scared to stick with him (when the rest of the team is struggling on offense, as well – if the other guys start hitting shots then you can carry Shump on O).

      Hm, I actually think Shump has been playing a lot better on offense. He’s shooting 43% from the field in March and has gone 23->38->40->43% month by month, and is at 44.7% FG since the all-star break. He’s not exactly Ray Allen efficiency-wise but he’s at least as good offensively (and maybe defensively) as Tony Allen, who plays 26 min/game for a team that is better than ours.

      I just think this team needs more energy players on the floor at any given time. TC, JJ, and Shump are those guys.

    52. Brian Cronin

      By right now, I really meant right now (the last two games). D’Antoni seems to be playing it like this – if the offense is okay, then he’ll let Shump play. If it is not and he’s also playing poorly on offense, he is benched. Basically, Shump (fairly or not) has a really short leash. D’Antoni appears to be developing one with JR Smith, as well.

    53. Frank

      Brian Cronin:
      Oh hey, Frank, I meant to ask you the other day – what does Synergy say about Lin’s D?

      not so well
      0.88 PPP, 243rd in the league. Interestingly, he is worst at defending spot-up shooters, which probably means he gambles a lot and then has to close out from a distance on these shooters.

      I will say this though – he seems to have extraordinarily bad luck on opponents’ 3 point shooting. Assuming he’s playing PG most of the time, opponents are shooting 42.2% from 3 point range against him overall, and 48.7%! on spot-up 3’s against him. Just by my recollection, I feel like a lot of PGs are making A LOT of step-back or off the dribble 3’s (like DWill, Jennings, Lou Williams etc.) that are low-percentage 3’s in general.

      For instance, for the season DWill is only shooting 31% on iso 3’s, Lou Williams 37.5%, and Jennings only 23.5%, but it sure felt like they couldn’t miss against us.

    54. Cousyfan

      I remember what Curt Rambis said during the height of Linsanity.
      He said it will take more than three weeks for Melo and Lin to get their acts together.
      I didn’t want to believe him at that time, but it appears Rambis is absolutely right.
      Patience!

    55. massive

      I actually want to stick with this team as currently constructed. I just want Amar’e and Carmelo to be yelled at or booed ferociously every time they play terrible defense or give up an offensive rebound. This team is extremely talented, and I really think they can pull it together. They don’t lose to teams because they’re over matched. They lose because they get out-hustled and out-played. Our offense really seems to run terribly when we have everybody trying to go ISO and they don’t move the ball. On most nights they just don’t want it more than the other team, which makes me sick. I really do hope we can pull it together.

    56. Gamecockerbocker

      KnicksFanInVA:
      http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7248ogl

      STAT to Charlotte. We get back Diaw and Maggette. Yea, they both suck, but Diaw is expiring and only 1 year left for Maggette. Can’t imagine Charlotte would get a better offer than this.

      I live a few hours away from Charlotte, so I know a little about what they’re trying to do and this deal wouldn’t make any sense for them. Ever since they made the playoffs a couple years ago they’ve been trading away guys, shedding bloated contracts and getting younger. They already have the youngest player in the NBA at center and they drafted him for defense, they have a shot at drafting Anthony Davis, and they have enough cap space over the next two off seasons to make moves… I don’t think they would take on Stoudemire’s contract, but you are right, that’s probably the best offer, talent-wise, that they’re going to get.

    57. Frank

      massive:
      I actually want to stick with this team as currently constructed. I just want Amar’e and Carmelo to be yelled at or booed ferociously every time they play terrible defense or give up an offensive rebound. This team is extremely talented, and I really think they can pull it together. They don’t lose to teams because they’re over matched. They lose because they get out-hustled and out-played. Our offense really seems to run terribly when we have everybody trying to go ISO and they don’t move the ball. On most nights they just don’t want it more than the other team, which makes me sick. I really do hope we can pull it together.

      I think what MDA needs to do is bring the two of them in his office, close the door, and show them videos of LBJ and Wade (or even Pippen and Jordan) – I wouldn’t show them a single clip of either LBJ/Wade scoring, but rather just the two of them doing all the little things -rotating on D, boxing out, getting in passing lanes, taking charges, diving for balls, etc.

      And then show them pictures of freaking Kyle Korver beating them to loose balls.

      It’s been said over and over – intensity has to come from the stars. We’ve got Chandler leaving it all on the floor, but these two really have to step it up.

    58. Frank

      Gamecockerbocker: I live a few hours away from Charlotte, so I know a little about what they’re trying to do and this deal wouldn’t make any sense for them. Ever since they made the playoffs a couple years ago they’ve been trading away guys, shedding bloated contracts and getting younger. They already have the youngest player in the NBA at center and they drafted him for defense, they have a shot at drafting Anthony Davis, and they have enough cap space over the next two off seasons to make moves… I don’t think they would take on Stoudemire’s contract, but you are right, that’s probably the best offer, talent-wise, that they’re going to get.

      Totally agree- that team is in blow-up mode, which means they are not taking on a $100M contract that is uninsurable and un-amnesty-able. Rich Cho is running that joint now, and I would expect them to be in serious contention in 2-3 years after they dump all the flotsam on the roster now and start building like OKC did.

    59. er

      I really hate ny papers all they do is try to stir up trouble….first the Jr melo stuff now trying to pit ppl against each other and the last line of bermans article talking about the one Time Melos man beat him for an offensive board when Gibson/Noah distroyed stat/Chandler on offensive boards

    60. Frank

      er:
      I really hate ny papers all they do is try to stir up trouble….first the Jr melo stuff now trying to pit ppl against each other and the last line of bermans article talking about the one Time Melos man beat him for an offensive board when Gibson/Noah distroyed stat/Chandler on offensive boards

      You are just feeding into it. It’s all link-bait, like 98% of all media nowadays.

    61. Brian Cronin

      Ha! Like I said awhile back, while I also wanted them to pick Faried, it is not like Shumpert is not good. Shump is good. Not as good as Faried, but still, he’s good. So I can’t bemoan the Faried pick too much. Now Jonah Hill over Ty Lawson and _____ over DeJuan Blair? That I bemoan.

    62. Frank

      the worst thing about this whole thing is that freaking THCJ is being proven right. and freaking Faried is awesome. =)

    63. Knicks4Eva

      Sorry, this is a bit off topic. What is the situation with Bill Walker? Is he still injured or is he just not getting playing time? I’m not suggesting that he should…

    64. Brian Cronin

      Sorry, this is a bit off topic. What is the situation with Bill Walker? Is he still injured or is he just not getting playing time? I’m not suggesting that he should…

      He’s injured. Likely out for the rest of the season. It happened right when Melo was coming back, so it flew waaaaaaaaaay under the radar.

    65. Brian Cronin

      I was screaming for the Melo trade not to happen. I was screaming that Melo was the problem during the “wait-to-gel” stage.

      I took a lot of heat for that. It can be a little lonely yelling the emperor has no clothes, but there’s solace in knowing the truth.

      We have archives here, people, you only have to read the old threads to see what the reaction was like to the trade here. Suffice it to say, there were plenty of posters who did not want the trade to happen.

    66. er

      I honestly think mda is an awful coach with his “so called system” the Knicks lose every second half and that means no adjustments….as Clyde was saying yest when amare was hot they shudda featured him but no the “system” dictates otherwise Smh they need to move melo or mda NOW they don’t mesh

    67. er

      I thought this was over but here goes…this team is better than that team. The team is just playing like shit….mda can’t adjust to his players

      Brian Cronin: We have archives here, people, you only have to read the old threads to see what the reaction was like to the trade here. Suffice it to say, there were plenty of posters who did not want the trade to happen.

    68. Brian Cronin

      Of course this team is better than that team. It is not about comparing this team to that team. It is about comparing Gallo, WC, Felton, Mozgov, Randolph, 2014 1st rounder, 2012/2013 second rounders, right to own 2016 first rounder and cap space to sign Tyson Chandler versus Melo and cap space to sign Tyson Chandler.

    69. art vandelay

      @87: Yes, as I have recently discovered, the old archives are quite amusing to see immediate reaction towards trades…in a bout of masochistic curiousness, I read an old archive the other night on the reaction following the old Steve Francis for Trevor Ariza trade from 2006!!! What a nightmare!

    70. er

      That’s all true but as u can see with stat he is rapidly decling in his atheticism so by the time u got those picks it would have been rebuilding anyway…and none of those players are really worth much besides the Italian stallion

      Brian Cronin:
      Of course this team is better than that team. It is not about comparing this team to that team. It is about comparing Gallo, WC, Felton, Mozgov, Randolph, 2014 1st rounder, 2012/2013 second rounders, right to own 2016 first rounder and cap space to sign Tyson Chandler versus Melo and cap space to sign Tyson Chandler.

    71. Bruno Almeida

      I would easily do any of Caleb’s proposed trades, but Dolan would never be that smart…

    72. Frank

      er:
      That’s all true but as u can see with stat he is rapidly decling in his atheticism so by the time u got those picks it would have been rebuilding anyway…

      btw, for all the talk about the end of Amare as we know him– since the All-Star break (against very difficult competition, mind you):

      Pre All-star break per-36 #s:
      18.8 points, 8.6 rebounds, 0.9 blocks. Per 36- 16.2 shots, 2.9 TOs
      but on a TS 51% turning it over a lot.

      Post-All-star break per 36#s:
      19.9 points, 8.6 rebounds, 1.2 blocks on 14.2 shots. Per 36- 14.2 shots, 2 TOs.
      but on TS% 58.5

      In other words – since the ASB, his #s are not all that different from his career numbers if you take the decreased usage into account.

      There are very faint glimmers of hope re: Amare – he definitely looks more decisive, dribbles into triple teams less. I think since the SA game debacle his defense has been better. It’s just the rebounding has been awful. But at least there has been some improvement.

    73. knickspodcast

      @#92 yes, those picks would be when we’re rebuilding, when we really need them and don’t have them.
      @#94 numbers don’t tell the whole story, you can’t look at Amar’e this year and honestly tell me he looks anything like he did last year.

    74. Frank

      btw- Amare is still ELITE when he is the roll man. According to Synergy, he scores 1.23 PPP as the roll man, 9th in the league. For the first time since I started following this, he’s more efficient than Chandler (1.19 PPP, likely because of his very crappy FT% lately). They are also getting Amare more involved as the roll man – he has only had 69 total possessions used for the entire year as the roll man, but 23 of them (33%) have come since the ASB (7 games out of the 42 played already) – so in other words, 33% of his PNR touches have come in just 17% of the schedule. No surprise that his efficiency has increased dramatically.

      The other thing is that he has really reduced how much he goes ISO – only 17 possessions used since the ASB in 7 games (2.5/game) as opposed to 3.7/game prior to the ASB.

      btw I really love Synergy- it’s just very clunky, needs an easier interface to make this easier.

    75. Frank

      knickspodcast:
      @#92 yes, those picks would be when we’re rebuilding, when we really need them and don’t have them.
      @#94 numbers don’t tell the whole story, you can’t look at Amar’e this year and honestly tell me he looks anything like he did last year.

      I would say that on the whole you’re right – but he really has been much better since the ASB, at least offensively. My eyes tell me that and the #s back me up. The biggest difference between post-ASB Amare and the Amare of pre-ASB 2010-11 is that his usage is MUCH lower. So it’s less obvious but still very effective.

      Now if he could just rebound the ball at the same time, that would be really good.

    76. Brian Cronin

      I agree that Amar’e is not a problem, offensively…except…hmm…how do I phrase this? He’s a problem because he doesn’t fit the personnel out there. When he gets the ball, he does good things with it on offense, but for long stretches he is not getting the ball. Plus, he creates spacing problems with Chandler. Plus he doesn’t give you anything on the offensive boards. So if he’s not involved and not helping out on the other things, then how does it make sense to play him when he is also a major negative on defense? This team just cannot function with three guys who are best effective when they have high usages, because when their usages are forced down by playing with each other, they all become less effective!

    77. max fisher-cohen

      While I would like a trade to happen ASAP since it would give the Knicks a chance to prove that MDA ball can work, but the Knicks likely won’t consider trading Melo until the summer if they do at all. That way, not only will there be more teams willing to bid, but they will also know their coach.

    78. hoolahoop

      I was screaming for the Melo trade not to happen. I was screaming that Melo was the problem during the “wait-to-gel” stage.

      I took a lot of heat for that. It can be a little lonely yelling the emperor has no clothes, but there’s solace in knowing the truth.

      Now that the world knows, less a few posters here, that Melo sucks. He’s an inefficient, non-hustling, no defense playing, sticky fingered ball stopper with a bad attitude. As I said since before Day 1, Melo will never win any titles until he gets demoted to a role player.

      The knicks need to rid of him.

    79. Frank

      Brian Cronin:
      I agree that Amar’e is not a problem, offensively…except…hmm…how do I phrase this? He’s a problem because he doesn’t fit the personnel out there. When he gets the ball, he does good things with it on offense, but for long stretches he is not getting the ball. Plus, he creates spacing problems with Chandler. Plus he doesn’t give you anything on the offensive boards. So if he’s not involved and not helping out on the other things, then how does it make sense to play him when he is also a major negative on defense? This team just cannot function with three guys who are best effective when they have high usages, because when their usages are forced down by playing with each other, they all become less effective!

      Yet another reason Amare should go to the bench, and start Jeffries or Novak in his place based on match ups. But MDA will never ask him to do that.

      Assuming that never happens, the return of Amare’s jumper is critical. If he can hit the 18-20 footer as well as he did in the first half of last season, that will be huge. The other thing they did 3 times yesterday, which led to a dunk, a missed wide-open layup, and a nice play by Gibson (tie-up), was run the PNR on one side with Amare on the wing, then have Amare cut to the basket while defenders are tied up with the PNR. Those were 3 high percentage shots in which Lin, Melo, Amare, and Chandler were all involved to some degree. They also ran the PNR with Melo as ball handler and Amare as roll man, which led to a dunk that was erased because of a defensive 3 second call.

      Wow- I was really down on the team last night, but the more I write, the more I feel like there is still hope here.

    80. er

      Mda is not a problem wow

      max fisher-cohen:
      While I would like a trade to happen ASAP since it would give the Knicks a chance to prove that MDA ball can work, but the Knicks likely won’t consider trading Melo until the summer if they do at all. That way, not only will there be more teams willing to bid, but they will also know their coach.

    81. Gamecockerbocker

      Brian Cronin:
      I agree that Amar’e is not a problem, offensively…except…hmm…how do I phrase this? He’s a problem because he doesn’t fit the personnel out there. When he gets the ball, he does good things with it on offense, but for long stretches he is not getting the ball. Plus, he creates spacing problems with Chandler. Plus he doesn’t give you anything on the offensive boards. So if he’s not involved and not helping out on the other things, then how does it make sense to play him when he is also a major negative on defense? This team just cannot function with three guys who are best effective when they have high usages, because when their usages are forced down by playing with each other, they all become less effective!

      So how would this Magical Melo and Chandler for Howard and Turkoglu deal work out, offensively anyway? There would still be three guys on offense that need the ball in their hands to be fully effective… right? Instead of having a PG, PF and SF who need the ball, now we’d have a PG, PF and C who need the ball and I think Howard and Amare would get in each others way more than Chandler and Amare. Idk just my thoughts on that trade. It would make the team better on defense… I guess.

    82. Frank

      sorry, a better explanation of the play they ran was – run the PNR with two players other than Amare, who is stationed on the opposite wing. They did this with TC/Lin and Melo/Lin on the plays I saw.

    83. er

      He’s sucking it up but I wanna point out who the nix lost to @Boston @ Dallas @ Sa @ Chicago @ Mia

      I no everyone wants to say since melo came back they can’t win but that is a he’ll of a stretch of road games a far cry from @ wash @ To @ min from the winning streak

      hoolahoop:
      I was screaming for the Melo trade not to happen. I was screaming that Melo was the problem during the “wait-to-gel” stage.

      I took a lot of heat for that. It can be a little lonely yelling the emperor has no clothes, but there’s solace in knowing the truth.

      Now that the world knows, less a few posters here, that Melo sucks. He’s an inefficient, non-hustling, no defense playing, sticky fingered ball stopper with a bad attitude. As I said since before Day 1, Melo will never win any titles until he gets demoted to a role player.

      The knicks need to rid of him.

    84. d-mar

      It may be oversimplifying, but 2 shots in the Boston game may have been the turning point of the season for the Knicks – the crazy 3 by Pierce to tie the game and the missed shot by Melo to win it. Think about if Pierce misses or Melo makes – the Knicks are rolling, Melo is the hero for his late game buckets, and maybe they don’t flop on the rest of the road trip (although the Chandler injury was a big factor as well)

      Just a thought…

    85. ephus

      Brian Cronin:
      Of course this team is better than that team. It is not about comparing this team to that team. It is about comparing Gallo, WC, Felton, Mozgov, Randolph, 2014 1st rounder, 2012/2013 second rounders, right to own 2016 first rounder and cap space to sign Tyson Chandler versus Melo and cap space to sign Tyson Chandler.

      Right now, I do not think you could give away Felton, Mozgov and Randolph even with the Knicks 2014 first rounder as a sweetener. Of course, there is still the chance that the 2014 pick turns into a top five selection, in which case the Melo experiment will have been a complete failure and everyone (except Dolan and those of us addicted to the Knicks) will be gone.

    86. Brian Cronin

      So how would this Magical Melo and Chandler for Howard and Turkoglu deal work out, offensively anyway? There would still be three guys on offense that need the ball in their hands to be fully effective… right? Instead of having a PG, PF and SF who need the ball, now we’d have a PG, PF and C who need the ball and I think Howard and Amare would get in each others way more than Chandler and Amare. Idk just my thoughts on that trade. It would make the team better on defense… I guess.

      Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’ve already stated that Amar’e doesn’t fit with Howard, either. The difference is that Howard is so good that you’d have to be fine with Amar’e just being a glorified jump shooter on offense and then a change-of-pace center when Howard is on the bench. Plus, you’d be opening up the 3 to be a rotation between Hedu and Novak. Novak can be hidden at the 3 a lot more than he can be hidden at the 4.

      It’d be…

      Lin/Davis
      Smith/FieldsShump
      Hedu/Novak/Fields
      Amar’e/Jeffries/Hedu
      Howard/Amar’e

      That’s a better team than the one the Knicks currently have. And on offense, not even Mike Woodson could screw up that lineup on offense.

    87. limpidgimp

      My post should read “granted” instead of “been granted”. I wish this blog had a preview or edit feature.

    88. Doug

      KJG: If this is true, and I understand to some degree it absolutely is, is their something the fans could do about it? Can we organize?

      knickspodcast: I feel like the only thing that would work is to boycott the games, as losing money is the only thing that will work with him. Unfortunately since it’s NYC there will always be plenty of people filling those seats.

      If an organized boycott didn’t work during the midst of the Isiah era, it’s never going to work.

    89. er

      Yea edit would be good lol

      limpidgimp:
      My post should read “granted” instead of “been granted”. I wish this blog had a preview or edit feature.

    90. DRed

      Anyone here follow hockey closely? How did someone manage to build the Rangers into a monster team? Why can’t Dolan apply that to the Knicks?

    91. Brian Cronin

      Anyone here follow hockey closely? How did someone manage to build the Rangers into a monster team? Why can’t Dolan apply that to the Knicks?

      The rules in hockey are a lot different. It is a lot easier to cut bait on high-priced failures. Plus, few star players ever make it to free agency. In addition, the Rangers’ success really came down to them getting lucky with drafting one of the best goalies in the game with something like the 205th overall pick. Even then, it took them years to build around their great goalie.

    92. DRed

      Brian Cronin:
      Question – do you think Howard wants to play in New York or do you think he wants to play for the Nets specifically for some weird reason?

      Perhaps Prokhorov made him an offer he couldn’t refuse.

    93. thenamestsam

      Brian Cronin: Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’ve already stated that Amar’e doesn’t fit with Howard, either. The difference is that Howard is so good that you’d have to be fine with Amar’e just being a glorified jump shooter on offense and then a change-of-pace center when Howard is on the bench. Plus, you’d be opening up the 3 to be a rotation between Hedu and Novak. Novak can be hidden at the 3 a lot more than he can be hidden at the 4.

      It’d be…

      Lin/Davis
      Smith/FieldsShump
      Hedu/Novak/Fields
      Amar’e/Jeffries/Hedu
      Howard/Amar’e

      That’s a better team than the one the Knicks currently have. And on offense, not even Mike Woodson could screw up that lineup on offense.

      I think the first point is the most important by far. I’d argue that the pieces don’t fit with Howard at all, but when you can get a guy who’s actually definitively a top 2 or 3 guy in the league, you do that first and worry about the other junk later.

      In my opinion a championship team built around Howard would have a bunch of jump shooters so that he can do what he does best – force a double team and then kick out or terrorize you if you don’t double, and then a creative guy (like Hedo a few years ago) who is capable of doing most of the creating down the stretch (when Howard’s FT woes neutralize him somewhat on offense) but is also useful being mostly a jump shooter during most of the game. This Knicks team doesn’t quite fit the recipe. We don’t have enough jump shooters and it’s unsure whether Lin is capable of being the main creator down the stretch, but ultimately it’s not like the current team is anywhere near a championship anyway. That team is just as good this year and has a much higher ceiling going forward. You have to make that trade if its out there.

    94. EB

      er:
      Wtf did you see net points toward the bottom? -186 wow

      Chandler has a minus 96 so I’m not sure that stat is reliable. Says more about the team really.

    95. EB

      Let’s give the knicks some credit they just played one of the best teams in the league tough. I liked the improved effort, and it does seem like the knicks are taking losses personally.

      BTW say whatever you want about Melo but he is not THIS bad, or so history would indicate. Maybe he is still playing injured?

      Want to see more of the Lin-Melo PnR. work out the kinks and thats one of the most dangerous plays in basketball.

    96. Gideon Zaga

      Trade Melo for Pau, then you can have a 3 big man rotation and Amare will thrive.

      DRed:
      Really, who does Amare fit well with?He’s not a good basketball player anymore.

    97. thenamestsam

      EB: Chandler has a minus 96 so I’m not sure that stat is reliable. Says more about the team really.

      You said that like -96 and -186 are pretty similar. It’s almost twice as bad!

    98. er

      I think lakers would win the west with Kobe melo and Bynum

      Gideon Zaga:
      Trade Melo for Pau, then you can have a 3big man rotation and Amare will thrive.

    99. Gideon Zaga

      I dont have a problem with trading Melo but who on here thinks Dantoni’s one play system is championship brand basketball or that Dantoni is a championship coach. If we’re tarding away Melo then we better be guaranteeing our championship contention and if we’re firing Dantoni then we might as well be getting a championship level coach or as it stands we do NOTHING. That means we can only hope. This i starting to feel like AA, take it day by day.

    100. Will the Thrill

      Why would it matter who they are playing? They score more points with him off the floor against the same teams. Our bench isn’t exactly a bunch of efficient scorers, either. So that just furthers the evidence that he offense is struggling with Melo out there. It definitely may be a combination of Melo and Amare, but still, Melo is involved.

      er:
      They have also played Dallas san Antonio Miami Boston etc…and usually he plays against starters so that is a stat u can use when u wanna single out melo

    101. Will the Thrill

      Yeah I agree, that’s why I believe we should get rid of them both!

      Gideon Zaga:
      Idonthavea problemwithtrading Melo but who on here thinks Dantoni’s one play system is championship brand basketball or thatDantoni is a championship coach. If we’re tarding awayMelo then we better be guaranteeing our championship contention and if we’re firing Dantoni then we might as well be getting a championship level coach or as it stands we do NOTHING. That means we can only hope. This i starting to feel like AA, take it day by day.

    102. EB

      thenamestsam: You said that like -96 and -186 are pretty similar. It’s almost twice as bad!

      Melo has a minus 30 something. _______ has a minus 92. Jeffries a minus 28. So if you think Chandler is as valuable as _______ and three times as bad as Melo and Jeffries then fine.

    103. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah me too but the Knicks would also get better and lose in the playoffs, its a win win by this town’s standards. Mike Dantoni gets coddled every year and he needs this and he needs that while Tom Coughlin comes close to getting .fired every year.

      er:
      I think lakers would win the west with Kobe melo and Bynum

    104. er

      Um those are good first teams when melo is not on the floor they are usually both benches on the court for the most part…but whatever I dont really care about that …just do the pau for melo an I think the results will be quite interesting

      Will the Thrill:
      Why would it matter who they are playing? They score more points with him off the floor against the same teams.Our bench isn’t exactly a bunch of efficient scorers, either. So that just furthers the evidence that he offense is struggling with Melo out there.It definitely may be a combination of Melo and Amare, but still, Melo is involved.

    105. Nick C.

      er: Wtf did you see net points toward the bottom? -186 wow

      Out of curiosity I compoared Landry and saw this:
      Amare: Close 25% eFG% .598 blk’d. 14%
      Landry: Close 30% eFG% .576 blk’d 10%

      Amare: Inside 36% .655 blkd 10%
      Landry: Inside 37% .611 blkd 8%

      Amare dunk 9% .905 2%
      Landry dunk 5% .867 0%

      The block %s vis a vis Landry, who is derided as being a doofus from time to time during the games for good reason, are startling.

    106. Will the Thrill

      To where? I hope it is an offense based on heavy iso’s, or else we see what happens to him. He simply cannot and will not function without being the go-to guy and getting as many iso’s and post ups as he demands.
      How can he complain about not getting the ball after Lin got fouled and converted both of his free throws???? I could see if the Knicks could not convert on that possession, he would be angry, but when the best case scenario occurs for your team (besides a 3, which Melo wasn’t looking for anyway). It is similar to somebody else on the team making a game-winning 3 and Melo complaining that he was open for the shot afterwards. Maybe I’m overreacting, but the dude looks like he’s all in it for himself.

      er:
      Trade him and u will see

    107. er

      Yea u r Kobe does that all the time Jordan etc most good scorers are crybabies and think they can score whenevr they feel like it that’s what makes them good and sometimes can be annoying…and only an idiot would complain after a game winning shot…melo acts like a spoiled brat cuz that’s what he is he always had things his way from oak hill to cuse to Denver and in the games on nyk with billups….but now since Lin has free rein now it’s difficult for someone with the spoiled brat mentality

      Will the Thrill:
      To where? I hope it is an offense based on heavy iso’s, or else we see what happens to him.He simply cannot and will not function without being the go-to guy and getting as many iso’s and post ups as he demands.
      How can he complain about not getting the ball after Lin got fouled and converted both of his free throws????I could see if the Knicks could not convert on that possession, he would be angry, but when the best case scenario occurs for your team (besides a 3, which Melo wasn’t looking for anyway). It is similar to somebody else on the team making a game-winning 3 and Melo complaining that he was open for the shot afterwards.Maybe I’m overreacting, but the dude looks like he’s all in it for himself.

    108. thenamestsam

      EB: Melo has a minus 30 something. _______ has a minus 92. Jeffries a minus 28. So if you think Chandler is as valuable as _______ and three times as bad as Melo and Jeffries then fine.

      You certainly can’t take them literally, but I do think the numbers mean something. They’re not good at all in my opinion for comparing guys who have very different minute allocations. The comparisons of guys with 1300 aren’t very illuminating. But comparing amongst guys with similar minutes in similar roles (starters, both play C a lot) is pretty interesting.

    109. thenamestsam

      Sorry last comment got screwed up by using less than signs. I said that comparing guys with more than 1300 minutes to guys with fewer than 600 is a poor way to use the off-court, on-court numbers.

    110. Will the Thrill

      I don’t believe “that’s what makes them good” haha, but I can definitely see Jordan/Kobe doing that. Too bad Melo isn’t in the same league as either of them so it is a little ridiculous for him to be doing this selfish stuff. If he was as good as Jordan or Kobe, believe me I wouldn’t care what he did, because they would be winning.

      er:
      Yea u r Kobe does that all the time Jordan etc most good scorers are crybabies and think they can score whenevr they feel like it that’s what makes them good and sometimes can be annoying…and only an idiot would complain after a game winning shot…melo acts like a spoiled brat cuz that’s what he is he always had things his way from oak hill to cuse to Denver and in the games on nyk with billups….but now since Lin has free rein now it’s difficult for someone with the spoiled brat mentality

    111. KnicksFanInVA

      In short, we always get screwed by paying max money to non-max stars. Just sucks we can’t get it right once in a while.

    112. EB

      thenamestsam: You certainly can’t take them literally, but I do think the numbers mean something. They’re not good at all in my opinion for comparing guys who have very different minute allocations. The comparisons of guys with 1300 aren’t very illuminating. But comparing amongst guys with similar minutes in similar roles (starters, both play C a lot) is pretty interesting.

      Fair enough. I’m still not sure how much credit to give that statistic, but Amare though bad over the whole season has looked much improved of late.

    113. Brian Cronin

      How can you possibly trade _____ now? Especially when he’s signed for next year and Davis might not be back next year. Unless you can get someone good for him (and you can’t), you simply have to keep _____ and see if he can regain his shot next year.

    114. ess-dog

      It’s good to remember (24 hours removed) that the Bulls, Spurs, and Mavs are probably 3 of the top 6 teams in the league.

      Although no one’s psyched about the weird combo of players we have, we should be better than our record. As much as I’d like to trade everybody today, the best move is to play these guys together and at least get their value up before trying to get the team to that elite level.

      You’d think eventually that Lin, Melo and Stat would work out the scoring on the 1st team. You’d also think that we’d put Chandler and Shump with those three to give us consistent post and perimeter defense, respectively.

      It’s far from the most efficient lineup, but I think we need to ride it until Melo, Stat and Lin work out the kinks.

    115. Will the Thrill

      Our offense would struggle dearly, but I believe we’d be better. We have pieces in the offense that just aren’t working now, and if they change something up, I believe they can get back to form (Amare, JR).

      er:
      How do u guys feel about the melo for j smith deal?

    116. ess-dog

      Brian Cronin:
      I just don’t get it. What is so appealing about playing for the Nets?

      Big Market, great point guard, cap space, kind of a blank slate, draft picks (if they don’t trade for him) and Jay Z. It seems like D-Ho is trying to preserve the Nets’ assets as well, unlike somebody who plays for the Knicks…

    117. Brian Cronin

      Forget this recent stretch, I’ve wanted a trade ever since they signed Chandler. From that point on, it was pretty clear that the roster did not make sense. It was only exacerbated when they added a third high usage guy into the mix.

    118. Doug

      ess-dog:
      It’s good to remember (24 hours removed) that the Bulls, Spurs, and Mavs are probably 3 of the top 6 teams in the league.

      Although no one’s psyched about the weird combo of players we have, we should be better than our record.As much as I’d like to trade everybody today, the best move is to play these guys together and at least get their value up before trying to get the team to that elite level.

      You’d think eventually that Lin, Melo and Stat would work out the scoring on the 1st team.You’d also think that we’d put Chandler and Shump with those three to give us consistent post and perimeter defense, respectively.

      It’s far from the most efficient lineup, but I think we need to ride it until Melo, Stat and Lin work out the kinks.

      To me this is the most rational view and the one I try to stick with. It’s difficult, especially now with the pulsing headache watching Knicks games gives me now, but if there’s anything baseball has taught me, it’s to trust in the process and be suspicious of gut reactions.

      Woo-sa.

    119. art vandelay

      Cumulative record of NY opponents in their last 7 losses: 159-103 / Cumulative record of teams NY beat during 7-game Feb. win streak: 83-108

    120. er

      What’s so good about playing for the knicks? They’ve been to the same amour of finals in the last 40 yrs

      Brian Cronin:
      I just don’t get it. What is so appealing about playing for the Nets?

    121. ROUGH

      Brian Cronin: I just don’t get it. What is so appealing about playing for the Nets?

      I’ve heard about a 400 million endorsment deal (by Adidas or Nike or something). That’s enough of a reason, right?!

      By the way,

      this is also why they don’t let him to go to the Bulls because they have D. Rose over there.

    122. limpidgimp

      Doug: To me this is the most rational view and the one I try to stick with. It’s difficult, especially now with the pulsing headache watching Knicks games gives me now, but if there’s anything baseball has taught me, it’s to trust in the process and be suspicious of gut reactions.

      Woo-sa.

      I haven’t lost sight of how good the opponents were. It’s not that I’m thinking, “they suck for losing to these teams.” It’s rather that I have such high expectations for the team AND coupled with the fact that games like last night’s were winnable: the talent is there but the heart and hustle weren’t. And it’s not like I expect players like Amar’e to be someone he’s not (such as suddenly morphing into a solid defender), but try harder please. If they busted their nuts off 100% and still lost, well, that’s a noble effort and I wouldn’t feel as frustrated. In short, when players don’t seem to care as much as we do, ARGH!
      But, at least, they were playing much harder last night than in the previous losses. That’s a good sign; I hope it can be sustained.

    123. Frank

      art vandelay:
      Cumulative record of NY opponents in their last 7 losses: 159-103 / Cumulative record of teams NY beat during 7-game Feb. win streak: 83-108

      Yeah I’m definitely feeling down about the team but truth is, out of the 6 games we’ve lost in a row, we had a good chance to win 4 of them (BOS, DAL, MIL, CHI) if the ball bounced a different way etc.

      I know last night’s loss sucked, especially with the 22 offensive rebounds given up, but there are still some positives there. We definitely need to figure out how to get Melo on track though.

      BTW – the wild lurching from elation to despair is exactly why people don’t think you can rebuild in NYC.

    124. thenamestsam

      ess-dog: Big Market, great point guard, cap space, kind of a blank slate, draft picks (if they don’t trade for him) and Jay Z.It seems like D-Ho is trying to preserve the Nets’ assets as well, unlike somebody who plays for the Knicks…

      I think the blank slate thing is more important than it’s being made out to be. For a guy like Howard who clearly cares a lot about defining his brand that has obvious advantages. If he goes to Chicago his team will always be more associated with Rose and MJ than with him. If he goes to LA the Lakers are way bigger than him. If he goes to the Knicks, he doesn’t define the whole franchise. There is too much history and too much baggage for Howard to become the first thing that people think of when they think Knicks. With the Nets, he has a great chance to be that guy. The franchise is reinventing itself and he has a chance to basically be the face of that reinvention. He could be the face associated with that franchise not just for the next few years, but for the next 20 years. Hell if he wants his face on the jerseys the Nets would probably let him have it. That’s going to be his team in a way few other teams (especially big market teams) could be.

    125. KnicksFanInVA

      I don’t think many fans would mind rebuilding, if indeed that was the direction we were headed. But the disappointing part is that we are always in a situation where have massively overpaid players and the team sucks with no draft picks. Doesn’t matter if it’s the team of Crawford, Z-Bo, and Curry or Melo & Amare, we STILL are not where we need to be.

      Frank:

      BTW – the wild lurching from elation to despair is exactly why people don’t think you can rebuild in NYC.

    126. Juany8

      Frank: Yeah I’m definitely feeling down about the team but truth is, out of the 6 games we’ve lost in a row, we had a good chance to win 4 of them (BOS, DAL, MIL, CHI) if the ball bounced a different way etc.

      I know last night’s loss sucked, especially with the 22 offensive rebounds given up, but there are still some positives there.We definitely need to figure out how to get Melo on track though.

      BTW – the wild lurching from elation to despair is exactly why people don’t think you can rebuild in NYC.

      Melo has never played this bad in his career, including all his time with the Knicks before he started getting injured. In fact, that period of time was the best of his career, and we had a total of 3 rotation players earlier in the year. Unfortunately, the Knicks still start Landry Fields (worse defender than Amar’e) and Lin and Baron aren’t even average point guards right now. This team just makes so many dumb mistakes, and even though a fair bit come from Amar’e and Melo, it’s mostly the backcourt that gives away game, after game, after game. Teams like Miami and the Bulls simply don’t play defenders as bad as Landry, Lin, and Baron, not unless they’re game changers offensively, which none of those guys are right now.

      D’Antoni also needs to go. There is no other playoff team that pays as little attention to detail as the Knicks, or who is worse at making adjustments. His offense is predictable and requires great spacing, which means our backcourt just doesn’t fit with his ideals. When you consider that Chandler and Jeffries also can’t shoot, a pick and roll, spread the floor offense is remarkably stupid. Our offense was working better earlier in the year, where our major problem was that nobody other than Melo could dribble or shoot outside of 5 ft, which resulted in a lot of bricked wide open jumpers.

    127. er

      Yea I live in bk and have been to the garden and. It is awesome indeed but don’t act like our beloved Bockers franchise is some kind of cornerstone because its just not factual

      Caleb:
      Er, do you live in New York? Or been to MSG?

    128. nfr213

      not to build the frenzy of today’s chatter, but my friend emailed me that he just saw an ap flash about an hour ago: chandler, fields, melo, cash for dwight hedo and duhon. it has apparently been taken down, but did anyone else see this shooting star? seems crazy.

    129. d-mar

      2012 is shaping up to be a wonderful year for Knicks fans:

      1) Knicks don’t make playoffs, D’Antoni is fired, Melo pouts
      2) Knicks have no 2012 draft pick
      3) Nets pick up D12 in free agency without giving up anything, and become immediate contenders

      Can it get any better than that?

    130. Frank

      nfr213:
      not to build the frenzy of today’s chatter, but my friend emailed me that he just saw an ap flash about an hour ago: chandler, fields, melo, cash for dwight hedo and duhon. it has apparently been taken down, but did anyone else see this shooting star? seems crazy.

      it’s crazy, if for no other reason that the Knicks can’t give cash in any deal this year.

      I actually don’t think it’s a bad deal for either team. It’s the best haul Orlando could get, and they also get out from under Hedo and Duhon’s horrible deals, while adding two top flight guys signed through 14-15 and a young restricted talent in Fields. And for the NYK – any deal that nets us Dwight Howard is probably a good deal.

    131. ephus

      d-mar: 2012 is shaping up to be a wonderful year for Knicks fans:
      1) Knicks don’t make playoffs, D’Antoni is fired, Melo pouts
      2) Knicks have no 2012 draft pick
      3) Nets pick up D12 in free agency without giving up anything, and become immediate contenders
      Can it get any better than that?

      The Dolans lock in a longterm deal with Time Warner Cable that guarantees that MSG is more valuable to them than to any other possible owner, meaning that they have a strong incentive never to sell the team.

    132. Juany8

      KnicksFanInVA:
      I don’t think many fans would mind rebuilding, if indeed that was the direction we were headed. But the disappointing part is that we are always in a situation where have massively overpaid players and the team sucks with no draft picks. Doesn’t matter if it’s the team of Crawford, Z-Bo, and Curry or Melo & Amare, we STILL are not where we need to be.

      Also it’s interesting that every single overpaid player the Knicks have had has been significantly better away from the Knicks than with them. Crawford won 6th man of the year, Zach Randolph became a playoff monster, and Amar’e and Melo both had contenders in the western conference before coming here. Maybe having a crowd that boo’s its players if they get down in a game isn’t a good idea? Maybe Knicks fans are spoiled fans that think being in New York entitles them to success and star power, even if that’s never been true. Either way, those players all seemed to do better when their teams acted like they wanted them. It’s an odd concept I know, rooting for the players on your team instead of rooting that you get Lebron and Dwight Howard by ditching everyone on the team. I’m sure that makes for a happy locker room.

    133. Jake S.

      Frank: it’s crazy, if for no other reason that the Knicks can’t give cash in any deal this year.

      I actually don’t think it’s a bad deal for either team.It’s the best haul Orlando could get, and they also get out from under Hedo and Duhon’s horrible deals, while adding two top flight guys signed through 14-15 and a young restricted talent in Fields. And for the NYK – any deal that nets us Dwight Howard is probably a good deal.

      Yeah, if the Magic do trade Dwight, I’m not sure they’d find a better deal than this.

    134. limpidgimp

      Juany8: It’s an odd concept I know, rooting for the players on your team instead of rooting that you get Lebron and Dwight Howard by ditching everyone on the team. I’m sure that makes for a happy locker room.

      In general, I find all the talk about trades by Knicks fans to be escapist, dispiriting and pointless. It typically devolves into fantasy basketball, armchair GM-ing, and baseless speculation. It’s one thing to boo coaches and players who perform badly, but to be engaged in head-in-the-clouds trade talk is a total disengagement from rooting for the team and watching the games. I am not directing my post at anyone here in particular, I just personally find the trade talk to be pointless.

    135. Jake S.

      limpidgimp: In general, I find all the talk about trades by Knicks fans to be escapist, dispiriting and pointless. It typically devolves into fantasy basketball, armchair GM-ing, and baseless speculation. It’s one thing to boo coaches and players who perform badly, but to be engaged in head-in-the-clouds trade talk is a total disengagement from rooting for the team and watching the games. I am not directing my post at anyone here in particular, I just personally find the trade talk to be pointless.

      Pointless trade mongering, as opposed to meaningful discussions about player efficiency ranking and true shooting percentage? Isn’t this whole site about escapism? Spare me the self-righteousness.

    136. Frank

      btw for all the talk about the end of Linsanity, he is still putting up reasonably solid numbers since the ASB, especially given the strength of the competition:

      Per 36-
      17.5 points, 3 rebounds, 8.6 assists, 2.4 steals, with 3.6 TOs
      TS down to 49.7 though.

      But overall – considering this is basically a rookie PG that fell out of the sky – that’s really really good.

      (I will choose not to look at the #s of the opposing PGs during the same stretch).

    137. ephus

      limpidgimp: In general, I find all the talk about trades by Knicks fans to be escapist, dispiriting and pointless. It typically devolves into fantasy basketball, armchair GM-ing, and baseless speculation. It’s one thing to boo coaches and players who perform badly, but to be engaged in head-in-the-clouds trade talk is a total disengagement from rooting for the team and watching the games. I am not directing my post at anyone here in particular, I just personally find the trade talk to be pointless.

      Most days I would agree with you, but we are less than two days removed from the trade deadline when the best center in the league is on the trading block. Add the fact that he is still young and interested in coming to New York (if not necessarily the Knicks) and it is irrestible to try to come up with a deal.

    138. Jake S.

      jon abbey:
      I really don’t buy the “it’s harder to play in NY because of the fans and media” line of reasoning, we haven’t had half the dram here this year that the Celtics and Lakers have.

      and look at the best-record-in-the-league Bulls thinking about shaking up their core:

      http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/7682303/chicago-bulls-working-acquire-pau-gasol-los-angeles-lakers-sources-say

      What tickles me is that most Knicks fans, myself included, would be over the moon for a team that’s over .500 and has a puncher’s chance against the better clubs in the playoffs. The bar is set much lower than anyone realizes.

    139. Doug

      ephus: Most days I would agree with you, but we are less than two days removed from the trade deadline when the best center in the league is on the trading block.Add the fact that he is still young and interested in coming to New York (if not necessarily the Knicks) and it is irrestible to try to come up with a deal.

      yeah we have to do our due diligence when it comes to acquiring a top 3 player, even if it strikes me as video game-ish (and also I’d hate to see Tyson go)

    140. Frank

      Doug: yeah we have to do our due diligence when it comes to acquiring a top 3 player, even if it strikes me as video game-ish (and also I’d hate to see Tyson go)

      So if our proposed TC+Melo+Fields for DH, Hedo, Duhon deal were to go through (which it will not), what would the final score of the deal be?

      Gallo + WC + Felton + Mozgov + Randolph + Curry contract + 2014 1st + 2016 swap + Turiaf + $6M +amnesty rights for DH, Hedo, and Duhon?

      Actually doesn’t seem like that bad a deal. It would basically be a redo of the Melo deal 1 year later.

      I too will be glad when the deadline is past and we can stop thinking about such things. Impossible not to, though.

    141. Frank

      I also think that Howard will be quite surprised at how much he misses a guy like Stan Van Gundy, who I think is a great coach. If he thinks SVG is a tough guy, I wonder how he will deal with the little general in Avery Johnson. I almost hope that SVG gets fired so he can be at least in the conversation if MDA ends up getting canned.

    142. Jake S.

      Frank:
      I also think that Howard will be quite surprised at how much he misses a guy like Stan Van Gundy, who I think is a great coach.If he thinks SVG is a tough guy, I wonder how he will deal with the little general in Avery Johnson.I almost hope that SVG gets fired so he can be at least in the conversation if MDA ends up getting canned.

      I think Dolan’s put the kaibash on the whole Van Gundy clan.

    143. Juany8

      Frank:
      btw for all the talk about the end of Linsanity, he is still putting up reasonably solid numbers since the ASB, especially given the strength of the competition:

      Per 36-
      17.5 points, 3 rebounds, 8.6 assists, 2.4 steals, with 3.6 TOs
      TS down to 49.7 though.

      But overall – considering this is basically a rookie PG that fell out of the sky – that’s really really good.

      (I will choose not to look at the #s of the opposing PGs during the same stretch).

      You can ignore his defense if you want, just don’t forget that he has terrible vision when going to the basket, which means he constantly makes very poor decisions with the ball. He misses so many open cutters or spot up shooters that I’m starting to wonder if it’s affecting the team’s psyche. Everyone was talking about how watching Melo pound the ball while everyone else stood around was bad for ball movement, but if people are moving off the ball and the point guard is constantly missing them in good spots so he can take an incredibly stupid floater over 3 defenders, I’m sure it affects how much the players are willing to move. When you also consider that NBA players have huge respect for Carmelo but not a lot for rookies, Lin might actually be hurting our offense overall. And again, that’s totally ignoring his d-league level defense.

    144. limpidgimp

      ephus:

      (Quote)

      I get that, since it’s a topical discussion related to the approaching deadline and tangibles regarding Howard’s situation. I was referring more generally to trading away current players when there is currently no hint about the intentions of the opaque management.

    145. jon abbey

      Juany8: Also it’s interesting that every single overpaid player the Knicks have had has been significantly better away from the Knicks than with them. Crawford won 6th man of the year, Zach Randolph became a playoff monster, and Amar’e and Melo both had contenders in the western conference before coming here. Maybe having a crowd that boo’s its players if they get down in a game isn’t a good idea?

      Crawford has also been given away by two teams post-NY and a third is currently seriously thinking about it, and Z-Bo also was given away by another team before landing in an ideal situation with a ton of good players around him and a good defensive big covering his ass, and he played well in a contract year and then promptly got hurt.

      so let’s be fair when citing these examples, they’re far from clear-cut.

    146. Frank

      Juany8: You can ignore his defense if you want, just don’t forget that he has terrible vision when going to the basket, which means he constantly makes very poor decisions with the ball. He misses so many open cutters or spot up shooters that I’m starting to wonder if it’s affecting the team’s psyche.

      You know, you keep saying this and I’m wondering what you’re basing it on. A serious question – have you done film study on synergy or something like that? Or just from sort of what you see from a birds’ eye view on TV? For the season he’s averaging 9.5 assists/40 with an assist% of 44.4, which is still near Steve Nash territory. He has obviously not been as good lately, but 8.6 assists/36 would still be in the top 10 PGs in the league in terms of assists (not pace-adjusted but whatever). No one is saying (at this point) that as an overall PG he is anywhere close to Steve Nash or Chris Paul, but is he an above average point guard right now? Probably or at least maybe. Considering how awful our PG situation was prior to his arrival, I will choose to still be happy that he showed up.

    147. Will the Thrill

      So what would you like to happen? Melo to pound the ball again? That worked out great. Lin is pretty much a rookie on minimum, Melo is a “superstar” on maximum. They both aren’t good at defense and make poor decisions with the ball sometimes. Which one gets the blame again?

      Juany8: You can ignore his defense if you want, just don’t forget that he has terrible vision when going to the basket, which means he constantly makes very poor decisions with the ball. He misses so many open cutters or spot up shooters that I’m starting to wonder if it’s affecting the team’s psyche. Everyone was talking about how watching Melo pound the ball while everyone else stood around was bad for ball movement, but if people are moving off the ball and the point guard is constantly missing them in good spots so he can take an incredibly stupid floater over 3 defenders, I’m sure it affects how much the players are willing to move. When you also consider that NBA players have huge respect for Carmelo but not a lot for rookies, Lin might actually be hurting our offense overall. And again, that’s totally ignoring his d-league level defense.

    148. ruruland

      nfr213: not to build the frenzy of today’s chatter, but my friend emailed me that he just saw an ap flash about an hour ago: chandler, fields, melo, cash for dwight hedo and duhon. it has apparently been taken down, but did anyone else see this shooting star? seems crazy.

      It’s all over twitter. Hard to find original report.

    149. Will the Thrill

      Yeah, and somehow it’s his and D’antoni’s fault for the losses. Not the guys who actually have expectations for being “stars”.

      Frank: You know, you keep saying this and I’m wondering what you’re basing it on.A serious question – have you done film study on synergy or something like that? Or just from sort of what you see from a birds’ eye view on TV?For the season he’s averaging 9.5 assists/40 with an assist% of 44.4, which is still near Steve Nash territory. He has obviously not been as good lately, but 8.6 assists/36 would still be in the top 10 PGs in the league in terms of assists (not pace-adjusted but whatever).No one is saying (at this point) that as an overall PG he is anywhere close to Steve Nash or Chris Paul, but is he an above average point guard right now? Probably or at least maybe.Considering how awful our PG situation was prior to his arrival, I will choose to still be happy that he showed up.

    150. Frank O.

      Frank: You know, you keep saying this and I’m wondering what you’re basing it on.A serious question – have you done film study on synergy or something like that? Or just from sort of what you see from a birds’ eye view on TV?For the season he’s averaging 9.5 assists/40 with an assist% of 44.4, which is still near Steve Nash territory. He has obviously not been as good lately, but 8.6 assists/36 would still be in the top 10 PGs in the league in terms of assists (not pace-adjusted but whatever).No one is saying (at this point) that as an overall PG he is anywhere close to Steve Nash or Chris Paul, but is he an above average point guard right now? Probably or at least maybe.Considering how awful our PG situation was prior to his arrival, I will choose to still be happy that he showed up.

      there have been a hell of a lot of eyeball assessments lately that haven’t been substantiated.
      I have seen Lin occasionally miss open cutters, but what looks open from a camera angle 100 feet in the air probably is a key hole for a guard looking at a double team by a guard and a PF or C-sized player off a pnr. All the hypoe brings with it a giant target. He’s faced some of the best guards in the game who wanted to prove something, and generally he is holding up well. His numbers are above average, and his D on Rose last night was admirable.
      A week ago, some folks were ready to bury Fields on the bench three deep with Shump and Smith ahead of him. But Fields has continued to play generally well, true he would be better suited to the 3, while Smith has been disasterous and Shump has been inconsistent. His defense generally is very good to excellent and his offense from passable to not very good.
      On Lin, Fields and Shump, you have some very young, talented players with which you can build a pretty nice supporting cast.

    151. nicos

      Frank:
      btw for all the talk about the end of Linsanity, he is still putting up reasonably solid numbers since the ASB, especially given the strength of the competition:

      Per 36-
      17.5 points, 3 rebounds, 8.6 assists, 2.4 steals, with 3.6 TOs
      TS down to 49.7 though.

      But overall – considering this is basically a rookie PG that fell out of the sky – that’s really really good.

      (I will choose not to look at the #s of the opposing PGs during the same stretch).

      That dip in TS% is pretty worrisome though. I don’t think he has been able to deal with the extra congestion caused by the Amare/Melo/Chandler front court. I’d kind of like to see Davis play a little more with the first unit (most of his minutes with them, Lin has been on the court as well) just to see if he can do a better job of getting everybody involved. The spacing is really bad and I think Davis has better court vision and is a better passer in tight spaces. He can’t score nearly as well in the pnr but I’m not sure that’s the worst thing in the world. He’s also a better defender. I also think Lin would do well with the second unit where the offense is really simplified- much like it was when Stat and Melo were out. Not saying Davis should start but I’d like to see him be the first guy off of the bench so he can get a couple of minutes with the first unit and see what happens.

    152. ruruland

      Frank: You know, you keep saying this and I’m wondering what you’re basing it on. A serious question – have you done film study on synergy or something like that? Or just from sort of what you see from a birds’ eye view on TV? For the season he’s averaging 9.5 assists/40 with an assist% of 44.4, which is still near Steve Nash territory. He has obviously not been as good lately, but 8.6 assists/36 would still be in the top 10 PGs in the league in terms of assists (not pace-adjusted but whatever). No one is saying (at this point) that as an overall PG he is anywhere close to Steve Nash or Chris Paul, but is he an above average point guard right now? Probably or at least maybe. Considering how awful our PG situation was prior to his arrival, I will choose to still be happy that he showed up.

      He’s a good player.

      But if the ball is in his hands 90 percent of the time he’s on the floor, and he’s more shot-oriented than pass-oriented, and he’s not rewarding both the stars of the team for their off-ball movement, then it’s obviously a problem.

      There’s a little bit of Iverson to him right now. The guy is fantastic getting into the lane which is great, but he’s a shot hunter.

      And when a guy like Melo is getting absolutely killed for not being able to contribute or fit into the offense,yet his point guard can’t get him the ball when he is motion, then how do you expect Melo not to get frustrated.

      What is he supposed to do at that point offensively?

      How much success has Lin had with Amar’e pnr? I’d say not much. Others guys have been setting up Amar’e in that situation. Lin’s assists come in transition and semi-transition when he is looking up and seeing the floor. They also come when he gets deep penetration and gets a rotating big– those are both latter era Iverson kind of assists.

    153. nicos

      Frank: You know, you keep saying this and I’m wondering what you’re basing it on.A serious question – have you done film study on synergy or something like that? Or just from sort of what you see from a birds’ eye view on TV?For the season he’s averaging 9.5 assists/40 with an assist% of 44.4, which is still near Steve Nash territory. He has obviously not been as good lately, but 8.6 assists/36 would still be in the top 10 PGs in the league in terms of assists (not pace-adjusted but whatever).No one is saying (at this point) that as an overall PG he is anywhere close to Steve Nash or Chris Paul, but is he an above average point guard right now? Probably or at least maybe.Considering how awful our PG situation was prior to his arrival, I will choose to still be happy that he showed up.

      The problem is that while his assist % is comparable to Nash’s, his assist rate (the number of his possessions used that end with an assist) is nowhere near where Nash’s is 43%, Lin’s is 26%. Baron Davis is at 39%. Lin is a scoring point so the fact that his TS% is dropping is a real concern. Right now, he’s starting to look a lot more like vintage Marbury than vintage Nash.

    154. ruruland

      Frank O.: there have been a hell of a lot of eyeball assessments lately that haven’t been substantiated.I have seen Lin occasionally miss open cutters, but what looks open from a camera angle 100 feet in the air probably is a key hole for a guard looking at a double team by a guard and a PF or C-sized player off a pnr. All the hypoe brings with it a giant target. He’s faced some of the best guards in the game who wanted to prove something, and generally he is holding up well. His numbers are above average, and his D on Rose last night was admirable.A week ago, some folks were ready to bury Fields on the bench three deep with Shump and Smith ahead of him. But Fields has continued to play generally well, true he would be better suited to the 3, while Smith has been disasterous and Shump has been inconsistent. His defense generally is very good to excellent and his offense from passable to not very good.On Lin, Fields and Shump, you have some very young, talented players with which you can build a pretty nice supporting cast.

      I think many people have remarked that his vision is poor once he starts his drive.

      Look, don’t get me wrong, I think he’s going to be a really good player in this league. So many things to love about this kid.

      but he has a tendency to be a shoot-first and drive to score player. that’s fine if you have a bunch of role players around him, but I’m not sure it works with guys who need to play a larger role in the offense.

      If you’re not going to have the ball in Melo’s hands, and if you don’t have a point guard who’s adept at finding cutters when he drives, theyou may as well stick a Novak out at the 3pt line for Lin bail-outs.

    155. Z

      Which package do you think Otis Smith would prefer:

      Tyson Chandler and Carmelo Anthony

      Or

      Gallinari, Felton, Randolph, Mozgov, and 2 1st rounders

    156. Z

      nicos: Right now, he’s starting to look a lot more like vintage Marbury than vintage Nash.

      Vintage Marbury was a really good player.

    157. ruruland

      nicos: The problem is that while his assist % is comparable to Nash’s, his assist rate (the number of his possessions used that end with an assist) is nowhere near where Nash’s is 43%, Lin’s is 26%. Baron Davis is at 39%. Lin is a scoring point so the fact that his TS% is dropping is a real concern. Right now, he’s starting to look a lot more like vintage Marbury than vintage Nash.

      And then compare his assist rate with his usage.

      Or fga/fta/ to assist ratio.it’s more disturbing in that respect.

      The guy is a scoring point guard. and In this offense, he’s going to have the ball in his nearly every time down the floor. That’s why, right now it doesn’t appear that Melo is a good fit for the team (outside of his poor play).

      Since Lin came back his shot attempts are down quite a bit–6 of his shots last night came with less than a minute to play.

    158. nicos

      Z:
      Which package do you think Otis Smith would prefer:

      Tyson Chandler and Carmelo Anthony

      Or

      Gallinari, Felton, Randolph, Mozgov, and 2 1st rounders

      I’d take Chandler and Melo in a heartbeat. Chandler’s the best player in the deal and Melo sells the most tickets. Gallo’s very good, but Felton, Randolph and Mozgov are second unit guys on good teams. Maybe you get lucky with one of the picks but the chances of getting anyone comparable to Chandler or Melo with 2 mid-first round picks is a real long shot.

    159. nicos

      Z: Vintage Marbury was a really good player.

      He was good- my point wasn’t that Lin wasn’t any good, just that he’s a score-first guy. That’s why that dip in TS% concerns me- as Frank noted, his TS% post all-star break is under .50, that’s not vintage Marbury, that’s vaseline eating Marbury.

    160. thenamestsam

      nicos: I’d take Chandler and Melo in a heartbeat.Chandler’s the best player in the deal and Melo sells the most tickets.Gallo’s very good, but Felton, Randolph and Mozgov are second unit guys on good teams.Maybe you get lucky with one of the picks but the chances of getting anyone comparable to Chandler or Melo with 2 mid-first round picks is a real long shot.

      I guess I agree, but I think it’s close just because the nature of the NBA is that it sucks to be in the middle of the pack. With Chandler and Melo, you’re just Knicks South basically. The pieces in the starting lineup maybe fit better and you have a better coach, but you also have less depth and really what’s your route to becoming better than the Knicks are now? Melo playing to his averages will help some, but that team is going to be spending a lot of time in the 8th seed kind of range unless they hit big on a low draft pick. The future of this team would basically be written in stone (Chandler + Melo + a bunch of decent guys), and we know better than anyone that that writing does not read “Championship”.

      The other package at least offers more hope. You’re worse in the short run, but Gallo and Mozgov both have some potential long term, the 2 picks are big since you’re going to be rebuilding a bit, and while Felton and Randolph are basically zeroes now they would probably have more value if they’d been on the Knicks the last year (especially Felton). Also this reserves some salary cap space in the long run. This team could be a number of different things and I might take the uncertainty over the above junky future. Just a thought.

    161. Spree8nyk8

      I mean first thing I see is exhausting all avenues to get Amar’e traded.

      But most here think that can’t happen, and if that is indeed the case then I don’t see why we can’t put Amar’e as the center on the second unit. Start JJ and let Amar’e have a role that quite frankly he could thrive in. It cures a lot of problems as far as I can tell.

    162. Owen

      “And when a guy like Melo is getting absolutely killed for not being able to contribute or fit into the offense,yet his point guard can’t get him the ball when he is motion, then how do you expect Melo not to get frustrated.”

      Is he ever in motion? 99% of the time he catches it on the wing 18 feet from the hoop or on the block. I don’t think I have ever seen a player who moves less without the ball….

    163. JC Knickfan

      nicos: He was good- my point wasn’t that Lin wasn’t any good, just that he’s a score-first guy.That’s why that dip in TS% concerns me- as Frank noted, his TS% post all-star break is under .50, that’s not vintage Marbury, that’s vaseline eating Marbury.

      Well he shooting alot more during linsanity which think help with his rhythm. He definitely more tentative on his drives.

    164. villainx

      Repeating from the prior thread, I still don’t understand why the Knicks aren’t playing at a slightly higher tempo. The guards just keep walking the ball up. If the complaint is that Melo iso too much, then the faster he gets to his spot, iso, and moves, the less likely the defender can adjust. If Lin has vulnerabilities with going left or turning the ball over, the quicker he initiates the offense, the less likely the defense can be set to force him to go left.

      I like the team as is, but it’s maddening they aren’t doing better.

    165. JC Knickfan

      Right now I would start BD, but keep him to bench minutes (around 16). If Melo or Stat is hot try ride them. Half way in 1QT or 8 minutes in sub in Lin. If they still lead Lin need continue working Melo and Stat. If down – I would bring the Linsanity crew. Lin, Shump, Field or Smith, Novak, Chandler or JJ.

    166. hoolahoop

      This team was put together with minimal consideration of how the pieces fit. Instead of getting Melo they should have waited for their shot at an elite PG. As it turned out, they probably could of had DWill or CP3.
      Rather than blow up this team for the next big star player (Dwight) a better approach would be to build a balanced team. They have a good center. The priority should be PG.

    167. roccomont329

      for mda’s system to work you need a top tier point guard. it doesnt take a genius to realize that lin isnt that right now. At least not yet. We need to stop giving him so much credit, i really dont think he’s good enough to the point that Tony Douglas plays 1 out of our last 10 games.

    168. Brian Cronin

      There is a significant difference between having a great center like Chandler and having the best center in the NBA.

      If you can acquire the best center in the NBA, you do it. You don’t gut your roster for someone like Melo. You do gut your roster (if need be) for someone like Howard.

    169. hoolahoop

      Maybe I’m the only one, but I still think Amare has life in him. Last season he played like a beast before Melo got here. I just don’t see how you can get old in one year.
      Also, I think he has a much better attitude and is more of a team leader than Melo, who I always knew was a selfish player.
      The problem with Melo is he doesn’t know how to play any other way. He doesn’t know how to move without the ball or play ball movement basketball. He knows how to set up, get the ball, and iso.
      If the rules of basketball were that the player receiving the first pass on offense was the only one allowed to shoot, Melo would be MVP. But those aren’t the rules and Melo is an inefficient black hole.

    170. hoolahoop

      Brian Cronin:
      There is a significant difference between having a great center like Chandler and having the best center in the NBA.

      If you can acquire the best center in the NBA, you do it. You don’t gut your roster for someone like Melo. You do gut your roster (if need be) for someone like Howard.

      I wouldn’t do it. The beauty of TC is not only his efficiency, but he doesn’t need the ball to be happy. That’s super valuable.

      Lack of talent isn’t the knicks problem.

    171. jon abbey

      Brian Cronin:
      There is a significant difference between having a great center like Chandler and having the best center in the NBA.

      If you can acquire the best center in the NBA, you do it. You don’t gut your roster for someone like Melo. You do gut your roster (if need be) for someone like Howard.

      this is what Grunwald needs to be doing right now, I hope to hell he is.

    172. hoolahoop

      roccomont329:
      for mda’s system to work you need a top tier point guard. it doesnt take a genius to realize that lin isnt that right now. At least not yet. We need to stop giving him so much credit, i really dont think he’s good enough to the point that Tony Douglas plays 1 out of our last 10 games.

      Chicago chanted it. “Over rated”. That doesn’t mean he’s not adequate in a more limited role, or that he’s not a nice guy. He’s just not the guy to build a franchise around that needs to win now.

    173. Z

      Owen:

      Is he ever in motion? 99% of the time he catches it on the wing 18 feet from the hoop or on the block. I don’t think I have ever seen a player who moves less without the ball….

      100% of topic, but Owen– my wife taught at your highschool while you were there (I saw your FB profile on jon’s OccupyMSG page). Small world.

    174. jon abbey

      Howard, like LeBron, is a seemingly indestructible iron man. I worry about Chandler getting hurt, we’ve already seen some of that this year.

    175. Spree8nyk8

      Ur the only one….

      I don’t care how good his attitude is honestly, he plays defense as well as a telephone poll does. Yesterday at the PF position alone we were outrebounded 17 to 4, and Amar’e did not have all four of those rebounds. We gave up 20 something offensive rebounds. Not to mention how he made Joakim Noah look like Rose beating him off the dribble. I mean if you can’t keep Noah in front of you, what is your worth?

      This sucks to say, but if Amar’e has a season ending injury tomorrow, this team instantly becomes better. Right now we are spending all this energy trying to figure out how to get him going and how to get him involved and the better question might be why do this at all? I mean put him with the second unit and see how he does there, he can have all the space he wants there. He’d be playing against a lower caliber of opponent so hopefully that would minimize the damage done to him on defense. Our starting unit gets better. I really see this as kind of a no brainer.

    176. Spree8nyk8

      hoolahoop: Chicago chanted it. “Over rated”. That doesn’t mean he’s not adequate in a more limited role, or that he’s not a nice guy. He’s just not the guy to build a franchise around that needs to win now.

      He had 20 and 13 with 4 steals the game before. I mean I’ve never seen a young player so harshly judged when going up against top tier players. If the Bulls played against Kyrie Irving last night and Irving had Lin’s numbers would you say the same thing? Bottom line is that prior to Amar’e and Melo coming back this team was better. And unlike a lot of people I don’t put the blame on Melo (solely), I put it on the two of them. At least with Melo he’s not the one getting utterly destroyed on defense and rebounding.

    177. Ben R

      I am tired of all the Lin hate, he is a second year PG that has played just over 1000 minutes. In those minutes he is averaging per 36:
      17.3 pts 7.7 asts 4.0 rebs 2.8 stls 4.1 tos 52.9% TS%
      Lin in the 7 games since the ASB:
      17.5 points 3.0 rebounds 8.6 assists 2.4 steals 3.6 TOs 49.7 TS%

      Let’s compare that to the rookie seasons (I am comparing him to rookie seasons since he barely played last year) of the best young PGs in the NBA:
      Rose: 16.3 pts 6.1 asts 3.8 rebs 0.8 stls 2.4 tos 51.7% TS%
      Paul: 16.1 pts 7.8 asts 5.1 rebs 2.2 stls 2.3 tos 54.6% TS%
      Williams: 13.5 pts 5.6 asts 3.0 rebs 0.9 stls 2.3 tos 50.0% TS%
      Westbrook: 16.9 pts 5.9 asts 5.4 rebs 1.5 stls 3.7 tos 48.9% TS%

      Even if we just look at his numbers since the ASB (a run of 7 games which has featured the top 4 defenses in the NBA) he is still putting up numbers not that far off of the rookies seasons of the very best PGs in the NBA.

      Lin is playing like an average to above average starting NBA PG right now. To claim he won’t get better is absurd. I’m not claiming that he will ever reach the heights of the PGs I listed above, they were all younger and all improved greatly but to claim that he will remain merely average is silly. He is young he should improve.

    178. BigBlueAL

      Adrian Wojnarowski just tweeted:

      Milwaukee and G-State are near deal to send Andrew Bogut and Stephen Jackson for Monta Ellis, Ekpe Udoh and Kwame Brown, sources tell Y!

    179. massive

      BigBlueAL:
      Adrian Wojnarowski just tweeted:

      Milwaukee and G-State are near deal to send Andrew Bogut and Stephen Jackson for Monta Ellis, Ekpe Udoh and Kwame Brown, sources tell Y!

      Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis in the same backcourt? How long before Scott Skiles quits?

    180. ess-dog

      That trade actually sucks for both teams. Monta is an overrated black hole that I can’t imagine will share nicely with Jennings and Bogut is always hurt or migrained out.
      Udoh is a nice up and coming pf though, so I give the trade to the Bucks.

      BigBlueAL:
      Adrian Wojnarowski just tweeted:

      Milwaukee and G-State are near deal to send Andrew Bogut and Stephen Jackson for Monta Ellis, Ekpe Udoh and Kwame Brown, sources tell Y!

    181. massive

      ess-dog:
      That trade actually sucks for both teams.Monta is an overrated black hole that I can’t imagine will share nicely with Jennings and Bogut is always hurt or migrained out.
      Udoh is a nice up and coming pf though, so I give the trade to the Bucks.

      Rule #1 in the Stephen A Smith Guide to NBA Trades and Other Front Office Matters; whenever you give up Kwame Brown, you win.

    182. flossy

      massive: Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis in the same backcourt? How long before Scott Skiles quits?

      How long ’til there’s a physical fight over the ball?

    183. Frank

      hmmm. i think the trade is a wash long-term, but for this season– the bucks just added Udoh and Monta Ellis to a team that just beat us, while subtracting no one that played in that game. I don’t see what this Ellis/Jennings combo is though – feels like maybe another move is coming to get rid of Jennings?

    184. Juany8

      It’s weird that the second most versatile offensive player in the NBA is being accused of not moving off the ball well, especially since he posts up better than any non big in the league. If anything, Melo’s problem is that MDA went from completely running the offense around him to trying to turn him into a Luol Deng/Shawn Marion type of player. If you’re only going to be getting Melo cuts to the basket and spot up shots, it’s not really that surprising that a player of his talent is struggling, just like Lebron and Wade struggled to play off the ball last year. When you add up that regardless of how good Lin can be as a scorer, he’s a pretty mediocre passer who constantly misses guys in good positions to score, I think that Melo is only at fault if you’re looking at contracts. Quite a few people seem to miss that the contracts are a sunk cost at this point, and the team should be trying to improve it’s worst players, not blaming it’s second best one. Melo misses shots that he set up with little effort from his teammates and can be caught out of position on defense since he is a mediocre help defender. Lin gets blown past every single time every single team runs a pick and roll. Landry Fields looks like he’s running into a brick wall when some player sets a screen, and he can’t shoot 3’s whatsoever, his primary offensive role. Amar’e is just bad at this point, the type of defense he plays is embarrassing to watch, this team would improve significantly with a straight Amar’e for Gibson trade lol

    185. Nick C.

      Ben R:
      I am tired of all the Lin hate, he is a second year PG that has played just over 1000 minutes. In those minutes he is averaging per 36:
      17.3 pts 7.7 asts 4.0 rebs 2.8 stls 4.1 tos 52.9% TS%
      Lin in the 7 games since the ASB:
      17.5 points 3.0 rebounds 8.6 assists 2.4 steals 3.6 TOs 49.7 TS%

      Let’s compare that to the rookie seasons (I am comparing him to rookie seasons since he barely played last year) of the best young PGs in the NBA:
      Rose: 16.3 pts 6.1 asts 3.8 rebs 0.8 stls 2.4 tos 51.7% TS%
      Paul: 16.1 pts 7.8 asts 5.1 rebs 2.2 stls 2.3 tos 54.6% TS%
      Williams: 13.5 pts 5.6 asts 3.0 rebs 0.9 stls 2.3 tos 50.0% TS%
      Westbrook: 16.9 pts 5.9 asts 5.4 rebs 1.5 stls 3.7 tos 48.9% TS%

      Even if we just look at his numbers since the ASB (a run of 7 games which has featured the top 4 defenses in the NBA) he is still putting up numbers not that far off of the rookies seasons of the very best PGs in the NBA.

      Lin is playing like an average to above average starting NBA PG right now. To claim he won’t get better is absurd. I’m not claiming that he will ever reach the heights of the PGs I listed above, they were all younger and all improved greatly but to claim that he will remain merely average is silly. He is young he should improve.

      +11

    186. Nick C.

      On the Bogut trade unless Milwaukee knows something about his health that I or we don’t it makes no sense. Udoh has had some nice box scores since he began to start a few weeks ago but nothing to say trade your all star center. Ellis and Jennings I donno. To GS looks well positioned with Bogut, Curry and Lee maybe not to go deep but at least not perpetually be in the lottery and they can add from there.

    187. daJudge

      Guys, I don’t think we are getting Howard for numerous reasons cited repeatedly. I agree that if we could, a gutting might be reasonable. But I don’t think we are getting him. I don’t think any of you seriously believe that we will. This team has talent and more balance and depth than many of our squads. Assuming that all of the criticism of Melo, Stat. Fields, Lin is true, we still have a pretty nice team. Even if Melo is only an OK 3 and Stat is an average 4, still this team is underachieving big time. We stink. Let’s assume (for me) that Stat and Melo are not being moved. Plain and simple, we need a coaching change that brings a different way in which this team practices and plays. We need a coach that will look at our strengths and game plan based upon the strengths and limitations we have with this team. You know, you can blame MSG or the owner or the Vatican or whatever, but Coach D’Antoni has neither adjusted nor produced. To me, he seems to be a total class act with a great system for a certain group, but not this group. Among other things, the fact that he seems to think Lin is the savior of this team is not, IMO, rational. It is certainly less rational than pinning our hopes on Stat and Melo. Anyway, I don’t hate the coach, and I am not saying this change will save this godforsaken season, but he and his staff need to go now. Even if we got Howard by some miracle, how would he coach the team with a dominating center?

    188. Spree8nyk8

      Better get a coach that can rebound and defend on the court also. I mean I REALLY think that people overvalue what exactly a coach does for the most part. I mean it’s not like Amar’e isn’t trying to defend, it’s that he can’t. We can get the bestest coach in all the land and it’s not going to change the fact that we have a max guy who is so bad on defense that he’s a target for any defense we play against. But hey, I hope we do make that change so that at least people could start focusing on the actual problems that we have.

    189. Juany8

      I fully agree, D’Antoni is starting to be exposed as an offensive coordinator playing head coach. I fully believe that if you traded him for Rick Carlisle, Greg Poppovich, or Tom Thibodeau, we’d be a 55+ win team in a regular season, even if Shump and Lin don’t improve significantly. None of those coaches would put up with what Stoudemire and Fields are doing defensively, and all of them would design a half court offense based on the players we have, not some idealized bullshit that only works if you have a bunch of shooters. Considering Alvin Gentry did better with that Suns core than D’antoni ever did, what exactly are his qualifications to be head coach? What does he do well other than create theoretically killer offenses? His teams simply don’t pay attention to detail, even Chandler has been less effective defensively than last year.

    190. BigBlueAL

      Im been thinking about this lately, realistically what can the Knicks do the rest of this season to make it a somewhat satisfying ending to the season??

      The reason Ive been so disenchanted with this team is because of the expectations of moving up in the standings enabling them to avoid the Bulls/Heat and give them a legitimate shot at winning a playoff series. They have no chance in hell of doing that now so basically all they are playing for is the 8th seed which means no realistic chance of even winning a game in the playoffs let alone a series.

      I guess for me right now if they can finish .500 (which means a 15-9 finish to the season) and get the 8th seed at least they wont be backing into the playoffs. Winning just 1 game which would mean their first playoff win since 2001 would be the best we can hope for. So I guess for me finish 33-33 and not get swept is the best we can realistically hope for which wont be that embarrassing a finish to the season.

    191. er

      This is what I have been yelling from roof tops hes not the fucking matrix …what the he’ll is the point of having dude I u want goddamn back cuts all game seriously trade him please so the stupidness can cease

      Juany8:
      It’s weird that the second most versatile offensive player in the NBA is being accused of not moving off the ball well, especially since he posts up better than any non big in the league. If anything, Melo’s problem is that MDA went from completely running the offense around him to trying to turn him into a Luol Deng/Shawn Marion type of player. If you’re only going to be getting Melo cuts to the basket and spot up shots, it’s not really that surprising that a player of his talent is struggling, just like Lebron and Wade struggled to play off the ball last year. When you add up that regardless of how good Lin can be as a scorer, he’s a pretty mediocre passer who constantly misses guys in good positions to score, I think that Melo is only at fault if you’re looking at contracts. Quite a few people seem to miss that the contracts are a sunk cost at this point, and the team should be trying to improve it’s worst players, not blaming it’s second best one. Melo misses shots that he set upwith little effort from his teammates and can be caught out of position on defense since he is a mediocre help defender. Lin gets blown past every single time every single team runs a pick and roll. Landry Fields looks like he’s running into a brick wall when some player sets a screen, and he can’t shoot 3?s whatsoever, his primary offensive role. Amar’e is just bad at this point, the type of defense he plays is embarrassing to watch, this team would improve significantly with a straight Amar’e for Gibson trade lol

    192. Juany8

      Spree8nyk8:
      Better get a coach that can rebound and defend on the court also.I mean I REALLY think that people overvalue what exactly a coach does for the most part.I mean it’s not like Amar’e isn’t trying to defend, it’s that he can’t.We can get the bestest coach in all the land and it’s not going to change the fact that we have a max guy who is so bad on defense that he’s a target for any defense we play against.But hey, I hope we do make that change so that at least people could start focusing on the actual problems that we have.

      Spree, Thibs has benched both Boozer and Noah in the past, including in playoff games against Miami, because they were either not performing as well as expected or being lazy on defense. Poppovich is notorious for benching his entire starting lineup if he doesn’t like how they’re playing. If Amar’e’s defense is that big a problem, a better coach would bench him and hold him absolutely accountable for his actions, regardless of salary or reputation. Simply getting rid of D’Antoni and switching him with a random coach won’t make a significant impact, but there are a handful of coaches in this league that can make a significant improvement to a team’s win loss record

    193. Spree8nyk8

      I’m not talking about benching him for a quarter. I’m talking about completely changing his role. And that is something that a coach on the hot seat would have a problem doing because if it doesn’t instantly work, you’re fired.

    194. Ben R

      Neither Boozer or Noah have the pedigree or max contract that
      Amare and Melo have and neither play in NY where a move like benching your all-star would create a firestorm of media coverage. In today’s NBA when a head coach goes toe to toe with an all-star the head coach loses. Jerry Sloan was the most tenured and one of the most highly respected coaches in the NBA in a small media market and he lost the battle against his all-star.

      If D’Antoni started a war with Melo he would lose and benching Amare wouldn’t help since Amare’s problem is a skill problem defensively not an effort problem. Unless its a permanent move to the bench a benching of Amare to get him to play better defense wouldn’t work. That’s like benching Jeffries to get him to shoot better.

    195. Will the Thrill

      You really want to bench people that are lazy on defense? Say goodbye to Melo.

      Juany8: Spree, Thibs has benched both Boozer and Noah in the past, including in playoff games against Miami, because they were either not performing as well as expected or being lazy on defense. Poppovich is notorious for benching his entire starting lineup if he doesn’t like how they’re playing. If Amar’e’s defense is that big a problem, a better coach would bench him and hold him absolutely accountable for his actions, regardless of salary or reputation. Simply getting rid of D’Antoni and switching him with a random coach won’t make a significant impact, but there are a handful of coaches in this league that can make a significant improvement to a team’s win loss record

    196. Spree8nyk8

      I’m not suggesting a temporary move Ben, I’m suggesting it as a potential permanent move. I think that Amar’e gets to play against lesser talent, has more space and a bigger role with the second unit. If he’s playing well he can still close games.

    197. Caleb

      er:
      Yea I live in bk and have been to the garden and. It is awesome indeed but don’t act like our beloved Bockers franchise is some kind of cornerstone because its just not factual

      maybe maybe maybe it changes some day with the Nets in Brooklyn and a new arena, but for 30 years it’s been the Little Leagues. Just how it is – players see it that way, too.

    198. Caleb

      Jake S.: What tickles me is that most Knicks fans, myself included, would be over the moon for a team that’s over .500 and has a puncher’s chance against the better clubs in the playoffs. The bar is set much lower than anyone realizes.

      Totally agree – not to dredge up ancient history but fans – not just on this blog – were pretty pumped about last year’s young, hungry .500 team. I know most people were happy about the Melo trade, too, but the atmosphere around the team was very positive the first half of the season.

    199. Juany8

      er:
      This is what I have been yelling from roof tops hes not the fucking matrix …what the he’ll is the point of having dude I u want goddamn back cuts all game seriously trade him please so the stupidness can cease

      Exactly, regardless of where Melo ranks as an NBA player, you made a big investment to go out and get him for his one elite skill, it doesn’t make any sense to totally turn away from that once you finally have a team that can play. This team was playing Bill Walker, Fields, Mike Bibby, and Toney Douglas heavy minutes early in the year. They were the team’s major problem (along with Amar’e’s issues) and all of those players except Fields have been kicked off the rotation for significantly better substitutes, and the team stays equally bad, partly because MDA decided to neuter Melo after he had been one of the best pick and roll and post up players in the entire league THIS SEASON.

      This team’s problems turned from being unable to make open shots or prevent open shots, to turning the ball over at a monster rate and being unable to prevent dribble penetration. Melo has at no point been the reason TD, Billy Walker, and Fields suck at everything. No one attacks him on defense, so complaining because he’s not capable of fixing other people’s mistakes is kind of odd. He also doesn’t make the incredible stupid turnovers Lin and Landry constantly make, which tend to result in super easy fast break opportunities, especially since we have the slowest, worst defending guards in the league. Jeremy and Landry are still young and have room to improve, but that doesn’t mean shit for this season. Lin might be better than Anthony even next year, it still makes absolutely no difference in what is happening this year.

    200. cgreene

      daJudge:
      We stink.Let’s assume (for me) that Stat and Melo are not being moved.Plain and simple, we need a coaching change that brings a different way in which this team practices and plays.We need a coach that will look at our strengths and game plan based upon the strengths and limitations we have with this team.You know, you can blame MSG or the owner or the Vatican or whatever, but Coach D’Antoni has neither adjusted nor produced.To me, he seems to be a total class act with a great system for a certain group, but not this group. Among other things, the fact that he seems to think Lin is the savior of this team is not, IMO, rational.It is certainly less rational than pinning our hopes on Stat and Melo.Anyway, I don’t hate the coach, and I am not saying this change will save this godforsaken season, but he and his staff need to go now.Even if we got Howard by some miracle, how would he coach the team with a dominating center?

      Perfectly put. Thank you for saying what I wanted to say much better than I can at the moment. MDA is a good guy who has a dogmatic approach to how offense is to be played that he cannot or will not adjust. He also has a very laissez faire approach to player treatment. I read SSoL as I am sure a few of you did and he speaks about his non confrontational style at length. In Phoenix he had a basketball savant in Nash to run his system. It was a perfect marriage. Minus Phil this team needs a more hard charging detail oriented approach that runs sets to get specific players the ball in specific situations and makes adjustments accordingly. Of course Phil Jackson is also well known for being relaxed but he is also well know for challenging his players mentally.

    201. Bruno Almeida

      Nick C.:
      On the Bogut trade unless Milwaukee knows something about his health that I or we don’t it makes no sense. Udoh has had some nice box scores since he began to start a few weeks ago but nothing to say trade your all star center. Ellis and Jennings I donno. To GS looks well positioned with Bogut, Curry and Lee maybe not to go deep but at least not perpetually be in the lottery and they can add from there.

      the Warriors are pretty well positioned in terms of cap space right now, Bogut is signed through 2014 on a very decent contract (around 12 mil), Lee through 2016 and Curry has 2 more years until he becomes a restricted FA…

      if they can somehow get rid of Biedrins and Jack, they have the chance to be real players on free agency for the years to come, and still keep a pretty good roster (Curry, Klay Thompson, Brandon Rush, Dorell Wright, Lee and Bogut is pretty good already)

      Jack won’t be hard to get rid of, he becomes an expiring contract next year and those tend to be fairly tradeable, but Biedrins will be really, really hard.

      if the Warriors hadn’t wasted their amnesty clause on Bell and had used it on Biedrins, I’d love this move… but as of now, giving up Udoh and keeping Biedrins and Jack is pretty bad.

    202. Gideon Zaga

      How or why would it work, Dantoni has been Amare’s coach for most .of his career, you think .he ever tried to even instill defense .in him, its so sad, such a freakish .athlete and .he can’t .defend a corpse. Don’t .kid yourselves, MDA just .plain sucks, he needs to be an assistant coach like the great Tex Winter was.

      Ben R:
      Neither Boozer or Noah have the pedigree or max contract that
      Amare and Melo have and neither play in NY where a move like benching your all-star would create a firestorm of media coverage. In today’s NBA when a head coach goes toe to toe with an all-star the head coach loses. Jerry Sloan was the most tenured and one of the most highly respected coaches in the NBA in a small media market and he lost the battle against his all-star.

      If D’Antoni started a war with Melo he would lose and benching Amare wouldn’t help since Amare’s problem is a skill problem defensively not an effort problem. Unless its a permanent move to the bench a benching of Amare to get him to play better defense wouldn’t work. That’s like benching Jeffries to get him to shoot better.

    203. Caleb

      Yeah, I like this for the Warriors – love it if Bogut can stay healthy. Big if. He (or Chandler, or Howard) is absolutely the perfect guy next to David Lee -a big, great defender who can guard the rim… and plays down low on offense while DL is in the high post.

      Meanwhile it’s easy to replace what Monta gave them, if you can spend $11 million. And they still have some cap flexibility.

    204. ess-dog

      BigBlueAL:
      Im been thinking about this lately, realistically what can the Knicks do the rest of this season to make it a somewhat satisfying ending to the season??

      The reason Ive been so disenchanted with this team is because of the expectations of moving up in the standings enabling them to avoid the Bulls/Heat and give them a legitimate shot at winning a playoff series.They have no chance in hell of doing that now so basically all they are playing for is the 8th seed which means no realistic chance of even winning a game in the playoffs let alone a series.

      I guess for me right now if they can finish .500 (which means a 15-9 finish to the season) and get the 8th seed at least they wont be backing into the playoffs.Winning just 1 game which would mean their first playoff win since 2001 would be the best we can hope for.So I guess for me finish 33-33 and not get swept is the best we can realistically hope for which wont be that embarrassing a finish to the season.

      Maybe it’s better to sink into the lottery and put our hopes on getting our protected #1 pick?

    205. Gideon Zaga

      Thank you!!!! If Dumbtoni .would change .his stupid .system from the one play .stupid .high .screen and roll to a traditional offense like the Celtics where .every possession seems like a different play things will get better .over .night. During the Bucks game, your freaking .star .player did not touch the ball entire fourth quarter until the closing seconds. What’s the point of having astar .player if all he would do was be a Decoy, are you kidding me.

      cgreene: Perfectly put.Thank you for saying what I wanted to say much better than I can at the moment.MDA is a good guy who has a dogmatic approach to how offense is to be played that he cannot or will not adjust.He also has a very laissez faire approach to player treatment.I read SSoL as I am sure a few of you did and he speaks about his non confrontational style at length.In Phoenix he had a basketball savant in Nash to run his system.It was a perfect marriage.Minus Phil this team needs a more hard charging detail oriented approach that runs sets to get specific players the ball in specific situations and makes adjustments accordingly.Of course Phil Jackson is also well known for being relaxed but he is also well know for challenging his players mentally.

    206. Doug

      cgreene: Of course Phil Jackson is also well known for being relaxed but he is also well know for challenging his players mentally.

      Hypothetically, if Phil became coach I’d be curious to see what his annual book recommendations to the players would be.

      Or who’d read them and who wouldn’t. (Pau is a reader, Kobe is not.)

    207. Bruno Almeida

      Caleb:
      Yeah, I like this for the Warriors – love it if Bogut can stay healthy. Big if. He (or Chandler, or Howard) is absolutely the perfect guy next to David Lee -a big, great defender who can guard the rim… and plays down low on offense while DL is in the high post.

      Meanwhile it’s easy to replace what Monta gave them, if you can spend $11 million. And they still have some cap flexibility.

      and who knows, Jackson might be revitalized by the move… I think he’s terrible, but he’s not as terrible as he has been in Milwaukee, he might have something left in the tank after all.

    208. Spree8nyk8

      Gideon Zaga:
      How or why would it work, Dantoni has been Amare’s coach for most .of his career, you think .he ever tried to even instill defense .in him, its so sad, such a freakish .athlete and .he can’t .defend a corpse. Don’t .kid yourselves, MDA just .plain sucks, he needs to be an assistant coach like the great Tex Winter was.

      WTF i just wiped my screen because of all those periods.

    209. Frank

      Bill Simmons just tweeted the real reason for this for GSW – they are tanking to keep their 2012 lottery pick (goes to Utah unless it is top 7). Curry, Klay Thompson, Lee, Bogut is a pretty nice young core – and they’ll get to add a lottery pick to that, probably.

    210. jon abbey

      here is a serious question for Melo’s defenders: if he is such a good offensive player, why does he have so much trouble finishing layups? I really think there’s some physical issue with him, I don’t believe that his struggles are all about the system and his teammates.

    211. cgreene

      Doug: Hypothetically, if Phil became coach I’d be curious to see what his annual book recommendations to the players would be.

      Or who’d read them and who wouldn’t. (Pau is a reader, Kobe is not.)

      He’d give Amare books on physics and geometry so that he would undertand the flight path of the ball and the angles off of which it will bounce when coming off the rim for a rebound.

    212. Bruno Almeida

      Frank:
      Bill Simmons just tweeted the real reason for this for GSW – they are tanking to keep their 2012 lottery pick (goes to Utah unless it is top 7).Curry, Klay Thompson, Lee, Bogut is a pretty nice young core – and they’ll get to add a lottery pick to that, probably.

      that does make sense… even if Bogut is able to come back, they’ll probably keep him out so he doesn’t reinjure himself anyway.

      that’s pretty good, I had forgotten about this pick.

    213. Gideon Zaga

      Sorry this tablet computer my kids gave me gets problematic sometimes, I’m tooold for it.

      Spree8nyk8: WTF i just wiped my screen because of all those periods.

    214. Juany8

      Chandler hasn’t exactly fixed Amar’e and Lin’s defensive issues, who says Bogut can actually fix people just as bad in Curry and Lee. It’s really, really hard to have a good defense in today’s NBA if one of your bigs is a bad defender, teams will run the pick and roll at him and constantly compromise the defense. When you also have a weak guard defender, it doesn’t really matter who the other players are, you’re going to have significant defensive issues.

      Also I get that Melo might be a poor defender compared to other stars, but I honestly don’t get where people gets that he’s just a bad defender. Teams actually avoid going at him on offense, unless they have a small forward capable of constantly moving well without the ball. There has not been a single game I’ve watched that has tried to take advantage of a matchup involving Melo. This team could use someone like Deng or Iguodala who is good at help defense as well as man defense, but the main reason that would help is because 3 of our starters are piss poor defenders, not because Melo does a bad job of guarding his man.

    215. Gideon Zaga

      You can nit pick all you want all day my friend, we are only advocating for a system change because at the end of the day, everybody misses shots, layups and dunks, defenses break down but what we need is an identity and consistency from the coaches.

      jon abbey:
      here is a serious question for Melo’s defenders: if he is such a good offensive player, why does he have so much trouble finishing layups? I really think there’s some physical issue with him, I don’t believe that his struggles are all about the system and his teammates.

    216. Juany8

      jon abbey:
      here is a serious question for Melo’s defenders: if he is such a good offensive player, why does he have so much trouble finishing layups? I really think there’s some physical issue with him, I don’t believe that his struggles are all about the system and his teammates.

      He did do a much better job earlier this year and last year with the Knicks before getting injured so it’s a possibility, it’s just hard to have an honest discussion about that because all the Melo detractors will say it’s just an excuse and that he will always suck. He’s clearly having the worst season of his career (as is Amar’e), it’s just hard to believe Melo got worse as he entered his prime. Besides, if he’s going to be pigeonholed into his current role on offense, there is literally no reason to keep him, there’s a smart team out there that will get value out of a super versatile offensive player capable of doing anything on the floor. Sure, the Knicks give up the chances of ever contending if they replace Melo with players like Wilson Chandler (even if it’s several of them), but at least the fans will be happy watching Lin jack up floaters over 3 defenders while Tyson Chandler is open cutting towards the rim and Novak is open for a 3.

    217. d-mar

      jon abbey:
      here is a serious question for Melo’s defenders: if he is such a good offensive player, why does he have so much trouble finishing layups? I really think there’s some physical issue with him, I don’t believe that his struggles are all about the system and his teammates.

      I totally agree Jon, one of the aspects of Melo’s game that I continually touted when we made the trade was how strong he was when he took the ball to the basket. Every game it seemed he would get a couple of and 1’s because of his ability to hang in the air, absorb contact and finish. This year, he gets blocked or just plain misses bunnies. Hard to explain.

    218. Gideon Zaga

      A friend of mine told me this which was interesting, substitute Melo for Dirk Nowitzki and you’d have the same problems in this sytem, sub Melo for Kobe and the same problem would exist but defense will get you over the hump. And im talking about these guys in this current line up, you cant tell your best player Melo/Kobe/Dirk to stand in a corner so that a guy who just came from the D league can get to operate. Are you kidding, there’s a reason these guys have egos, they’ve convinced themselves that they are the best players in the world and there’s nothing you can say to make them take a back seat. I ACTUALLY APPLAUD Melo for this.

    219. limpidgimp

      The Melo-Nowitzki comparison is crazy; Nowitzki is in a class of his own. Nowitzki’s shot is money, and he will always opt for the high percentage shot before taking a difficult one. Whereas with Melo, even when his shooting percentage is poor like recently, he still has little concept of high-percentage shots. To Melo, a perimeter fadeaway is no worse than posting up, because his mentality is that anything he shoots will go in. Though that’s not been born out by the recent games. And Nowitzki has a champion’s hunger and drive and is always giving his all on both sides of the court. Melo is something else.

    220. Gideon Zaga

      If this team had CP3 on it, there would be no question that Melo would defer or even have to defer, there is a pecking order even among the superstars but as long as he is the best player on the team come on of course he wouldnt be happy being featured as a mere option, why do you think Howard wants to go to the Nets, only because he wants to be the man, these guys have egos remember. He knows if he went to the Lakers Kobe would never give it up, same reason for the Shaq and Kobe rift. Even now people in LA complain about Kobe not dumping the ball into Bynum more. During the recent lakers celtics game a couple of days ago, the Celtics missed a shot that would have tied the game, the Lakers got the rebound with 30 seconds left, Kobe had made the last jumper to give them the lead and proceded to ran the play which seemed like would have been for himself but Coach Brown quickly called a time out to prevent this and you should have seen the look on Kobe’s face. All this .was an .example to show how these players think, they think they are the best options on their teams at every single possession and every single play. If Lin was on the level of CP3 , Melo would get in Line , no one would even tell him. The same way everybody gets in line when Melo has the ball and watches. The same way all the other stars vet in line on the Olympic teams and the all star teams, there is always an alpha dog. No question. Its not great but thats basketball, its just how it is. Teams gravitate towards their best players and if they’re not happy then no one else is. So you either trade the player or get rid of the coach. Choose your poison. And i say the coach only because he sucks, cant adjust and has ran out of excuses, he’s had his chance. Time he got the boot.

    221. jon abbey

      limpidgimp:
      The Melo-Nowitzki comparison is crazy; Nowitzki is in a class of his own. Nowitzki’s shot is money, and he will always opt for the high percentage shot before taking a difficult one. Whereas with Melo, even when his shooting percentage is poor like recently, he still has little concept of high-percentage shots. To Melo, a perimeter fadeaway is no worse than posting up, because his mentality is that anything he shoots will go in. Though that’s not been born out by the recent games. And Nowitzki has a champion’s hunger and drive and is always giving his all on both sides of the court. Melo is something else.

      exactly.

      and people need to stop trying to put all the blame on just D’Antoni or Melo or Amare or whatever, there’s plenty of blame to go around. almost no one is doing their job well.

    222. Gideon Zaga

      Yeah right, you’re funny andyou say that now. Dirk used tobeyour everyday choker before Lebron assumed the role, don’t kid yourself by being prisoner of the moment. And please stop lying its pathetic, half of Dirk’s shot are patented awkward midrange turnarounds off balance and off one legg, these shots if you didn’t know by NBA standards are low percentage shots. He only makes those at a high rate and that doesnt mean they are high percentage. But my point was, if you had Dirk in this offense, asking him to defer to Lin by not posting up and not iso-ing and had him standing in the corner and asking him to make cuts , yeah you would have the same problem.

      limpidgimp:
      The Melo-Nowitzki comparison is crazy; Nowitzki is in a class of his own. Nowitzki’s shot is money, and he will always opt for the high percentage shot before taking a difficult one. Whereas with Melo, even when his shooting percentage is poor like recently, he still has little concept of high-percentage shots. To Melo, a perimeter fadeaway is no worse than posting up, because his mentality is that anything he shoots will go in. Though that’s not been born out by the recent games. And Nowitzki has a champion’s hunger and drive and is always giving his all on both sides of the court. Melo is something else.

    223. limpidgimp

      I don’t have any problem with the Melo ISOs. It’s just that the shots aren’t going in, and there are no passing opportunities created by the double teams on Melo bc no one is moving when he has the ball. Melo can pass well; but he’s not looking to do so. Back to the Nowitzki comparison, Nowitzki dishes to open teammates when he gets double-teamed, while Melo is not creating opportunities for his teammates. What’s so great about Melo attracting double teams if it doesn’t open the game up for others on the floor? Anyway, I’m not laying it all on Melo, these are just some ramblings about the mention of Nowitzki and Melo.

    224. daJudge

      Guys, I’m not defending the putrid play of Stat or the well below par play of Melo. They are max players and they have sucked and I have been wrong. I am also not blaming this debacle solely on D’Antoni or suggesting he play defense or whatnot. I simply believe he has done a really crappy job with the hand he has been dealt and the hand wasn’t so bad. If a coach is worth a 5-7 game swing, I think it is significant and worth a change. I think he is a negative 5-7 coach with this team. Perhaps he is a 5-7 plus team for another team. Granted, I never really liked his approach/system and I am therefore jaded. I admit it. But just looking at our team, I think another coach and staff can simply achieve a lot more. Personally, I do not applaud Melo or Stat for much this year. I think they have done remarkably little to help this team overall. Stat has been worse as a performer, Melo has been worse as a soldier. Something needs to occur, the status quo is unacceptable with the talent we have on this team. Let’s start with the entire coaching staff and go from there if the players can’t play the new song. It is not too late, but it’s getting there quick.

    225. snickers

      Long time reader, rare writer. Against the opinion of many on the board with superior basketball knowledge, I’m in the camp that says the problem with the team *is* Carmelo, not Amare and not D’Antoni.

      It’s not the play on the court that tells this story, it’s the personality dynamics. We’re all familiar with Carmelo’s selfish arrival in NYC, but every day it’s visible in a more pronounced fashion in interviews. They’re like interviews with George W Bush- reporters using kid gloves, serving softball questions, straining against their professional interest to keep him from saying something painful. It’s embarrassing.

      Carmelo is a child prodigy as a basketball player, but as a person he’s in over his head. We’ve seen in sport after sport that guys with talent and without the makeup almost never succeed here.

      Amare and Chandler and even Lin, just about everyone else except JR Smith and the unfortunate _____, have perspective, know their limitations, know how to go about their business. Most of the guys on the roster can fit as pieces on a really good team, and they know it. But that team can’t come together with Carmelo- and they know that too.

      This reflects itself in Amare’s often less-than-distinguished play. He’s aware that there’s no future in this combination of personalities. It’s stupid to overcommit to a failing cause. He would never say that, but that’s how it’s playing out.

      Wrt D’Antoni- agree he makes a lot of coaching mistakes. Certainly Collins or Skiles would handle most game situations differently. But that’s part of D’Antoni’s approach. He recognizes that the players play. To a first approximation, he watches how they make decisions, he doesn’t make them for them. That’s why many players love playing for him. And a good D’Antoni team is great for fans.

      Can that team win? Not comparing D’Antoni to Phil Jackson, but Jackson had a similar approach.

      Finally, is there a better coach for Carmelo than Doug…

    226. snickers

      That should have ended- is there a better coach for Carmelo than Doug Collins? Can’t think of one. He’d be perfect in Philly.

    227. Gideon Zaga

      Seriously what would it take for some of you to be a little objective , I know we’re all fans and are a little irrational but come on let’s debate facts and not delusions or hearsy. Come on we pride ourselves on being a smart blog. Get some highlights and some game tape and notice how Melo’spost isos resulted in easy shots for his team mates. Even in the last game, he got Amare wide open because Amare’s man came over to double. What are you talking about.

      limpidgimp:
      I don’t have any problem with the Melo ISOs. It’s just that the shots aren’t going in, and there are no passing opportunities created by the double teams on Melo bc no one is moving when he has the ball. Melo can pass well; but he’s not looking to do so. Back to the Nowitzki comparison, Nowitzki dishes to open teammates when he gets double-teamed, while Melo is not creating opportunities for his teammates. What’s so great about Melo attracting double teams if it doesn’t open the game up for others on the floor? Anyway, I’m not laying it all on Melo, these are just some ramblings about the mention of Nowitzki and Melo.

    228. Owen

      Quite a piece by Beck….

      “Anthony is breaking plays and demanding the ball in isolation, then snapping at teammates when they fail to get it to him. It happened late Monday, when Anthony called for the ball in the post, then smacked his hands in anger after Landry Fields went elsewhere. More often, Anthony saves the criticism for more private moments, on the bench or in the locker room.”

    229. er

      How is melo not in dirks class? In the one series they played the nuggs beat up on Dallas and there career averages are similar and both are having terrible yrs

    230. limpidgimp

      @ Gideon Zaga, I may be ignorant and have spotty memory, but I am certainly not ‘lying’ as you say.

      Gideon Zaga:
      Seriously what would it take for some of you to be a little objective , I know we’re all fans and are a little irrational but come on let’s debate facts and not delusions or hearsy. Come on we pride ourselves on being a smart blog. Get some highlights and some game tape and notice how Melo’spost isos resulted in easy shots for his team mates. Even in the last game, he got Amare wide open because Amare’s man came over to double. What are you talking about.

      Maybe you notice more than I do, and I didn’t say it never ever happens. But what I see after Melo came back is that there are more instances of people just standing about and watching him than the realized passing opportunities you are talking about.

    231. Owen

      Dirk is having a bad year and his TS% is 55% (and climbing rapidly) and his team, after losing Tyson Chandler, has a 24-20 record in a far stronger conference.

      Dirk currently sits 16th on the all time Win Share list btw.

      Who thinks Melo makes the Hall of Fame at this rate….

    232. Gideon Zaga

      So your reason for Anthony being the problem is because of his Fashion Interviews. So maybe you’re jealous of him huh. Well I certainly respect your opinion, but the only thing that I care about with players is their performance on the floor. I really don’t care how they live their lives, I have my own to live to be concerned. Kobe and MJ are known as big jerks and A-holes but we adore them because they’re great. Im also glad you’re here, welcome. Please read the layman’s guide to advanced stats at at the top of the forum, its a good read.

      snickers:
      That should have ended- is there a better coach for Carmelo than Doug Collins? Can’t think of one. He’d be perfect in Philly.

    233. Gideon Zaga

      And they both don’t play good defense.

      er:
      How is melo not in dirks class? In the one series they played the nuggs beat up on Dallas and there career averages are similar and both are having terrible yrs

    234. letssee

      snickers:
      It’s not the play on the court that tells this story, it’s the personality dynamics. We’re all familiar with Carmelo’s selfish arrival in NYC, but every day it’s visible in a more pronounced fashion in interviews. They’re like interviews with George W Bush- reporters using kid gloves, serving softball questions, straining against their professional interest to keep him from saying something painful. It’s embarrassing.

      Carmelo is a child prodigy as a basketball player, but as a person he’s in over his head. We’ve seen in sport after sport that guys with talent and without the makeup almost never succeed here.

      While this may be possible, one thing that is certain is that you can SEE the actual plays, while we have to speculate about the players’ “maturity levels.” And I don’t think we know enough to judge melo one way or another.

      Last game, melo didn’t get the ball towards the end of the game, as he watched Lin drive several times and miss. Melo had a good size advantage in his match up several times, but he was still ignored. If one thing melo can do well, it is to shoot lights out, and thus far, he hasn’t had the chance to do so freely especially towards the end of the games with Lin running the offense. It makes sense that he feels frustrated.

      Now, the fact that the core of chandler, amare, melo, and lin/baron has no spot up shooter, but has bunch of bad defenders is something that is clearly true, and a bigger reason for the team’s struggle. With bunch of slashers crowding the lane, it makes it easy for the defense to clog the paint and double team.

      It’s not surprising that the linsanity group had better success w/o the stars. While they don’t have the lights out shooter of melo, they can still score somewhat. And they can defend much better. Definitely a better lineup. Were they title contenders? Of course.

    235. Bruno Almeida

      my god, the referees just fucked up the Nuggets, no way the refs call that foul if it was against Boston or LA.

      Hinrich is so terrible that he missed the last FT, but now it goes to overtime after one of the most incredible 3’s I’ve seen in recent memory by Gallo.

    236. Will the Thrill

      Why do you keep insisting that every new poster reads the layman’s guide to advanced stats, when you keep defending Melo who is a mere average player based on these stats?

      Gideon Zaga:
      So your reason for Anthony being the problem is because of his Fashion Interviews. So maybe you’re jealous of him huh. Well I certainly respect your opinion, but the only thing that I care about with players is their performance on the floor. I really don’t care how they live their lives, I have my own to live to be concerned. Kobe and MJ are known as big jerks and A-holes but we adore them because they’re great. Im also glad you’re here, welcome. Please read the layman’s guide to advanced stats at at the top of the forum, its a good read.

    237. Owen

      “Why do you keep insisting that every new poster reads the layman’s guide to advanced stats, when you keep defending Melo who is a mere average player based on these stats?”

      +1 although I would go a little higher than “mere average”

    238. Will the Thrill

      Still, not worth this amount of praise/defending

      Owen:
      “Why do you keep insisting that every new poster reads the layman’s guide to advanced stats, when you keep defending Melo who is a mere average player based on these stats?”

      +1 although I would go a little higher than “mere average”

    239. limpidgimp

      Gideon Zaga: And please stop lying its pathetic, half of Dirk’s shot are patented awkward midrange turnarounds off balance and off one legg, these shots if you didn’t know by NBA standards are low percentage shots. He only makes those at a high rate and that doesnt mean they are high percentage.

      Those shots by Nowitski at _midrange_ do, as you concede, often go in, so for all intents and purposes it is a high-percentage shot. And Nowitski can shoot from the perimeter too, but he’ll usually opt for the postup and midrange first. What I see is Melo throwing up something from long range when there’s plenty of time on the clock. And yeah he can hit a lot of those, but do you really think that’s great shot selection by Melo? This is not about the semantics of ‘high-percentage shot.’

    240. Gideon Zaga

      so what if they stood watching, is it up to him or the coach to invent movement around his isos, Denver did this and had the number 1 offense in the league for years. You guys make iso ball seem terrible, but its the offense of the playoffs where defenses literally become scouting reports and take away what offenses do best and thats when having a player who can create their shot regardless of the said defenses come at a premium. Remember Dirk and the mavs iso-ed their way to the championship in the finals. Go and watch it for yourself.

      limpidgimp:

      Maybe you notice more than I do, and I didn’t say it never ever happens. But what I see after Melo came back is that there are more instances of people just standing about and watching him than the realized passing opportunities you are talking about.

    241. Gideon Zaga

      If new posters read the advanced guide they would come with better arguments than “melo sucks because he’s rich and goes to fashion shows”. Also Ted Nelson did it to me when I first posted and it was actually helpful even though I’m still on the dark side.

      Owen:
      “Why do you keep insisting that every new poster reads the layman’s guide to advanced stats, when you keep defending Melo who is a mere average player based on these stats?”

      +1 although I would go a little higher than “mere average”

    242. hoolahoop

      DS:
      “Someone ‘sponsored’ Carmelo’s basketball-reference. com page to post this message: ‘There Is No ‘I’ In Team, ‘Melo…’

      But there’s an M and and E. . . . MElo

    243. snickers

      @280:

      So your reason for Anthony being the problem is because of his Fashion Interviews. So maybe you’re jealous of him huh. Well I certainly respect your opinion, but the only thing that I care about with players is their performance on the floor.

      Heh, thanks, no. Their performance on the floor is what’s counted, but how they get there is often what matters. It’s a small heresy to a stats crowd, but I posit that you can tell a lot from non-stats performances. People don’t become different on the floor, they’re still the same people. The Wade Boggs that won the batting titles was the Wade Boggs that ate the chicken every day, even on non-game days. Priorities, awareness, discipline, those things. It’s not the whole story, obviously, but it’s at least half the story at this level.

    244. limpidgimp

      Gideon Zaga: You guys make iso ball seem terrible, but its the offense of the playoffs where defenses literally become scouting reports and take away what offenses do best and thats when having a player who can create their shot regardless of the said defenses come at a premium. Remember Dirk and the mavs iso-ed their way to the championship in the finals. Go and watch it for yourself.

      Dude, I said I have no problems with ISOs, so I don’t know who you’re having a conversation with. And I did just rewatch last year’s Finals recently.

    245. hoolahoop

      Always the caveat with Lin, “he’s young’, “He’s a rookie” he only started playing basketball last Tuesday” . . . .yada yada yada

      The NBA doesn’t keep score based on a curve. No points added for being young and inexperienced. You are what you are.
      There’s a lot of false adulation surrounding him.

      Yeah, Amare is useless garbage and Lin is Hall of Fame material.

    246. Gideon Zaga

      Listen I only defend Melo because I believe he is the lesser of the two evils. Dantoni has mesmerized with his brand of basketball for so long that we can’t realise the sort of talent he’s let slip through our hands, if he did a better job defensively maybe we don trade our homegrown talent for Melo’s ass, but now that we have Melo and I’m not going to give him another pass because he cant tame the beast. Dantoni had his chance , he’s not the only coach in the nba who’s had personnel problems and roster changes. If Dantoni deserves better then what do you say to Nate McMillan, whose had it even worse and yet continues to win games year after year.

      Will the Thrill:
      Still, not worth this amount of praise/defending

    247. hoolahoop

      BigBlueAL:
      Im been thinking about this lately, realistically what can the Knicks do the rest of this season to make it a somewhat satisfying ending to the season??

      The reason Ive been so disenchanted with this team is because of the expectations of moving up in the standings enabling them to avoid the Bulls/Heat and give them a legitimate shot at winning a playoff series.They have no chance in hell of doing that now so basically all they are playing for is the 8th seed which means no realistic chance of even winning a game in the playoffs let alone a series.

      I guess for me right now if they can finish .500 (which means a 15-9 finish to the season) and get the 8th seed at least they wont be backing into the playoffs.Winning just 1 game which would mean their first playoff win since 2001 would be the best we can hope for.So I guess for me finish 33-33 and not get swept is the best we can realistically hope for which wont be that embarrassing a finish to the season.

      After the all star break, I really thought the knicks were going to win the division and make a real push for the conference title.
      Finishing 8th is as good as not being in the playoffs, unless they end the season red hot and make a real series with Miami or Chicago.

    248. Z

      Amar’e makes x30 the $ Lin makes. When you have to build under the constrictions of a salary cap, production per dollar is probably the most important stat of all.

    249. hoolahoop

      Ben R: If D’Antoni started a war with Melo he would lose …

      At this point I’d say Sanitoni has little to lose. Might as well go down swinging and trying to win games.

    250. Ben R

      Do you remember when we fired Wilkins because he couldn’t win with Marbury, when we should have been better but the coach couldn’t figure it out? Do you remember the poor half season with Herb Williams filling in or the nightmare which was Larry Brown?

      Sometimes teams just aren’t very good or don’t fit together. We have talent but unless Melo truly buys in or Amare gets his mojo back we are just simply flawed. It is not the coaching it is the players, it is almost always the players.

      Melo doesn’t like D’Antoni because D’Antoni expects him to share the ball and accept a role on the team rather than have the entire team revolve around him. It’s not about Melo being the 2nd or 3rd option it’s about having a team that doesn’t have 1st, 2nd, or 3rd options but instead doesn’t care who shoots as long as it is a good shot.

    251. jon abbey

      Howard doing what Melo should have done, and trying to get to the team he wants without them having to gut their team in the process. Grunwald can blow away any Nets offer, I really hope to hell he’s trying.

    252. hoolahoop

      Gideon Zaga: If this team had CP3 on it, there would be no question that Melo would defer or even have to defer, there is a pecking order even among the superstars but as long as he is the best player on the team come on of course he wouldnt be happy being featured as a mere option

      I believe there’s tremendous truth to that. Melo would be better in a situation where he didn’t demand to be the “Man”.

    253. hoolahoop

      snickers: Long time reader, rare writer. Against the opinion of many on the board with superior basketball knowledge, I’m in the camp that says the problem with the team *is* Carmelo, not Amare and not D’Antoni.

      It’s not the play on the court that tells this story, it’s the personality dynamics. We’re all familiar with Carmelo’s selfish arrival in NYC, but every day it’s visible in a more pronounced fashion in interviews. They’re like interviews with George W Bush- reporters using kid gloves, serving softball questions, straining against their professional interest to keep him from saying something painful. It’s embarrassing.

      Carmelo is a child prodigy as a basketball player, but as a person he’s in over his head. We’ve seen in sport after sport that guys with talent and without the makeup almost never succeed here.

      Amare and Chandler and even Lin, just about everyone else except JR Smith and the unfortunate _____, have perspective, know their limitations, know how to go about their business. Most of the guys on the roster can fit as pieces on a really good team, and they know it. But that team can’t come together with Carmelo- and they know that too.

      This reflects itself in Amare’s often less-than-distinguished play. He’s aware that there’s no future in this combination of personalities. It’s stupid to overcommit to a failing cause. He would never say that, but that’s how it’s playing out.

      Great post.

    254. Doug

      hoolahoop:
      Always the caveat with Lin, “he’s young’, “He’s a rookie” he only started playing basketball last Tuesday” . . . .yada yada yada

      The NBA doesn’t keep score based on a curve. No points added for being young and inexperienced. You are what you are.
      There’s a lot of false adulation surrounding him.

      Yeah, Amare is useless garbage and Lin is Hall of Fame material.

      You have some weird, contrarian anti-Lin vendetta going on, which you haven’t backed up with any statistical or analytical evidence, only some strong-worded gut feeling. Did you not see Ben R’s post at 220 comparing Lin to the rookie seasons of guys like Rose and Paul?

      Ben R:
      I am tired of all the Lin hate, he is a second year PG that has played just over 1000 minutes. In those minutes he is averaging per 36:
      17.3 pts 7.7 asts 4.0 rebs 2.8 stls 4.1 tos 52.9% TS%
      Lin in the 7 games since the ASB:
      17.5 points 3.0 rebounds 8.6 assists 2.4 steals 3.6 TOs 49.7 TS%

      Let’s compare that to the rookie seasons (I am comparing him to rookie seasons since he barely played last year) of the best young PGs in the NBA:
      Rose: 16.3 pts 6.1 asts 3.8 rebs 0.8 stls 2.4 tos 51.7% TS%
      Paul: 16.1 pts 7.8 asts 5.1 rebs 2.2 stls 2.3 tos 54.6% TS%
      Williams: 13.5 pts 5.6 asts 3.0 rebs 0.9 stls 2.3 tos 50.0% TS%
      Westbrook: 16.9 pts 5.9 asts 5.4 rebs 1.5 stls 3.7 tos 48.9% TS%

    255. hoolahoop

      limpidgimp: Dude, I said I have no problems with ISOs, so I don’t know who you’re having a conversation with. And I did just rewatch last year’s Finals recently.

      ISO’s are death in basketball. They hurt ball movement, they stop players from moving on offense, it even hurts the defense. It’s discouraging to the rest of the team, looks ugly and is not the most effective system, even if you have Michael Jordon on your team.

      The collective strength of the team is stronger than any single player.

    256. hoolahoop

      Doug: You have some weird, contrarian anti-Lin vendetta going on, which you haven’t backed up with any statistical or analytical evidence, only some strong-worded gut feeling. Did you not see Ben R’s post at 220 comparing Lin to the rookie seasons of guys like Rose and Paul?

      Polease. If you’re going to compare Lin to Rose or Westbrook, you’re in Lala land.

      I don’t have a vendetta against Lin, I just try to keep balance. One thing I love about Lin is that he take responsibility for his performance. That’s huge. That’s how people grow and get better. I admire his humility and tenacity. I recognize Lin’s attributes, but people here overrate him.

    257. letssee

      Ben R:
      Melo doesn’t like D’Antoni because D’Antoni expects him to share the ball and accept a role on the team rather than have the entire team revolve around him. It’s not about Melo being the 2nd or 3rd option it’s about having a team that doesn’t have 1st, 2nd, or 3rd options but instead doesn’t care who shoots as long as it is a good shot.

      Playing team basketball. Playing unselfish basketball. It all sounds innocent and benign. But remember that D’antoni’s style of basketball is a unique one. Playing team basketball means giving the ball to Jeremy constantly and watch the play develop, since D’antoni style lives and dies by the point guard. Giving the ball to Jeremy ultimately makes him the primary offense, while Carmelo may not get the ball for stretches.

      It’s not really about being unselfish. Kobe never had to do this. Never did Lebron, Kevin Durant, or even Joe Johnson. Playing the team offense that makes you the secondary piece is ultimately acknowledging that you are the second option. Meanwhile, Melo ends up not shooting for stretches, even though the way for Melo to get going, or any other stars for that matter, is to constantly get touches to warm up their shots.

      It’s easy to blame Carmelo for being selfish. But the problem with Knicks is not Carmelo. In fact, if Knicks only gets to keep one player, they need to keep Carmelo. There’s too much disrespect on this forum toward Carmelo.

    258. jon abbey

      Doug: You have some weird, contrarian anti-Lin vendetta going on, which you haven’t backed up with any statistical or analytical evidence, only some strong-worded gut feeling. Did you not see Ben R’s post at 220 comparing Lin to the rookie seasons of guys like Rose and Paul?

      those are just offensive numbers, not all-around ones.

      and unfortunately for Lin, right now the league is stacked with great PGs. before he burst on the scene, NY probably didn’t have a top 50 PG, so him being around 25-30 (overall) is a nice upgrade, but it still means we’re facing a better PG than him most nights.

    259. hoolahoop

      Somebody has to have the balls to call out Melo for not playing in the system. Amare, Tyson, or Dantoni are guys that could, and should, stand up to him.

    260. limpidgimp

      letssee: But remember that D’antoni’s style of basketball is a unique one. Playing team basketball means giving the ball to Jeremy constantly and watch the play develop, since D’antoni style lives and dies by the point guard. Giving the ball to Jeremy ultimately makes him the primary offense, while Carmelo may not get the ball for stretches.

      It’s not really about being unselfish. Kobe never had to do this. Never did Lebron, Kevin Durant, or even Joe Johnson. Playing the team offense that makes you the secondary piece is ultimately acknowledging that you are the second option. Meanwhile, Melo ends up not shooting for stretches, even though the way for Melo to get going, or any other stars for that matter, is to constantly get touches to warm up their shots.

      It’s easy to blame Carmelo for being selfish. But the problem with Knicks is not Carmelo. In fact, if Knicks only gets to keep one player, they need to keep Carmelo. There’s too much disrespect on this forum toward Carmelo.

      I liked your post for pointing out how unusual what D’Antoni’s offense is, one that other big players have not had to deal with. And I agree with most of your post.
      I think a lot of ‘disagreement’ on these boards is not necessarily radical differences of opinion but rather people emphasizing different things to offset some perceived sense of bias and one-sided argument on the part of other posters. A kind of exaggeration to compensate for others’ perceived exaggerations.

    261. max fisher-cohen

      @Gideon

      High usage players on title contenders fall into two categories. They are either extremely efficient, they have average efficiency and excellent defense (or both).

      Great efficiency
      Howard TS% 60%
      Dirk TS% 61%
      Jordan TS% 57%
      Shaq TS% 58%
      Ginobili TS% 60%
      Wade TS% 58%
      Pierce TS% 60%
      Ray Allen TS% 58%
      Garnett TS% 58%
      Durant TS% 61%
      Gasol TS% 60%

      Great defense
      Kenyon Martin (highest usage on one of Nets’ contending teams)
      Jason Kidd (highest usage on one of Nets’ contending teams)
      Rasheed Wallace
      James
      Howard
      Westbrook (sort of — his wild shooting is the only reason OKC might not win a title)
      Shaq
      Kobe
      Duncan
      Wade
      Garnett
      Pierce (sort of)

      Allen Iverson is pretty much the only exception to this rule, and it’s no coincidence that his team was a top defense, nor is it a coincidence that no team he went to after improved with his addition. Tony Parker fit the category until he was like 23, but again, he was surrounded by a great defense, and his usage wasn’t that high.

      Melo wants to be the center of the offense, but this team will never win that way unless it is entirely reconstructed around him. I don’t understand why anyone would advocate it. It’s a path to mediocrity. High usage medium efficiency players like Joe Johnson, Vince Carter, Jerry Stackhouse, etc. can succeed if they reform and improve their efficiency, improve their defense, or play alongside a higher efficiency guy and defer to him, but building around them almost always leads you down the path that Hawks are on now, that the Nuggets were on earlier, that the Raptors were on with Carter… a collection of first round playoff exits (maybe with the occasional deeper drive).

      Amar’e is much more similar to Nowitzki statistically. He is the guy you can run your offense through, at least historically, who can deliver great efficiency at high volume. You ought to continue your crusade for a revamped offense with Stoudemire as your rallying cry.

    262. max fisher-cohen

      That list isn’t perfect. Jordan should obviously be in the “great defense” category as well, and James should be in the “great offense” category, and I’m sure I omitted some players, but I’m sure you get my point.

    263. jon abbey

      again, there is plenty of blame to go around, almost no one is doing their jobs at the level they should be. but Melo defenders, there’s no explaining these numbers away:

      “For the past 10 games, the Knicks have been demonstrably worse when Anthony plays. With Anthony on the court, the Knicks are scoring at a rate of 97.7 points per 100 possessions. When he is on the bench, that rating soars to 109.8.

      The contrast is just as sharp on defense: the Knicks give up 107.1 points per 100 possessions with Anthony on the court, 95.1 with Anthony on the bench. ”

      Melo has been back for 10 games, and NY is 2-8 in those 10 games. that’s not all on him, but a solid chunk of it certainly is.

    264. max fisher-cohen

      Derrick Rose is another exception, but like Iverson, his team is filled with superior defenders.

    265. letssee

      hoolahoop:
      Somebody has to have the balls to call out Melo for not playing in the system. Amare, Tyson, or Dantoni are guys that could, and should,stand up to him.

      That will never happen. Simple reason. Melo is playing within the system. Lin is running the offense for the most part. Yes, Melo gets occasional isos that he’s missed lately. But he is fucking Carmelo, and he should get isos once in a while, as long as he isn’t getting double teamed.

      What’s happened is simple. Knicks played teams that are better than them. The current Knicks are flawed. Yes, we have Carmelo and STAT and Chandler. As long as we play team game, we should succeed because we have talent, right?

      Calling the play “iso” automatically makes it a selfish play, doesn’t it? But with the current line up that is incapable of spacing the court, you can’t have Melo play 1v1 with his man, unless you play ISO because otherwise he will always get double teamed.

      I loved Linsanity just like everyone else. But he’s still below average point guard in this league. Are we really bitching about the playing isos when that is pretty much the only way to get Melo the ball?

    266. ruruland

      hoolahoop: ISO’s are death in basketball. They hurt ball movement, they stop players from moving on offense, it even hurts the defense. It’s discouraging to the rest of the team, looks ugly and is not the most effective system, even if you have Michael Jordon on your team. The collective strength of the team is stronger than any single player.

      Every team isolates,man.What are you talking about?

      OKC? Lots of isolation with 3 players.

      Dallas? Isolation is primary halfcourt offense in close situations

      Boston? Pierce

      Chicago? Rose “Isolates”, meaning he drives into the lane or takes a pull-up jumper in non-screen situations.

      Lakers? Their top 3 players are primarily isolation players. Post ups are isolations, too.

      Every top team in the league isolates.

      When you have a really talented player that can create his shot without the benefit of a pass or screen, generally, that player is going to receive extra attention.

      When you have a player that can receive extra attention without the benefit of screen, which makes it more difficult to exploit the extra attention, you se that attnetion to create open shots and driving lanes against rotating defenders.

      It’s a two-way street. Does Melo need to follow the system more, at times, and make the proper decisive reads and cuts with the ball based on where the defensive stops the penetration? Sure.

      But, if all you’re asking Melo to be is a tertiary option in the offense (the screener is really the first option), without adding in plays designed take advantage ofhistalent, which by the way, should make others better and allow foras many open opportunities as MDA’s offense, then that’s on MDA.

      In the beggining of the year you asked Melo to be the primary ball-handler, manage pick and rolls and determine when to isolate and create open shots for others

    267. ruruland

      jon abbey: again, there is plenty of blame to go around, almost no one is doing their jobs at the level they should be. but Melo defenders, there’s no explaining these numbers away:“For the past 10 games, the Knicks have been demonstrably worse when Anthony plays. With Anthony on the court, the Knicks are scoring at a rate of 97.7 points per 100 possessions. When he is on the bench, that rating soars to 109.8.The contrast is just as sharp on defense: the Knicks give up 107.1 points per 100 possessions with Anthony on the court, 95.1 with Anthony on the bench. ”Melo has been back for 10 games, and NY is 2-8 in those 10 games. that’s not all on him, but a solid chunk of it certainly is.

      No one’s doubting he’s played poorly.

      I mean honestly, I can’t think of one person who’s defended him in that sense.

    268. nicos

      Doug: You have some weird, contrarian anti-Lin vendetta going on, which you haven’t backed up with any statistical or analytical evidence, only some strong-worded gut feeling. Did you not see Ben R’s post at 220 comparing Lin to the rookie seasons of guys like Rose and Paul?

      The problem is that all those guys went to young teams who didn’t have a lot of established veterans and really weren’t expected to win. Lin’s usage is 30% and his assist rate is a very underwhelming 26%. That’s okay when you don’t have a lot of other talent- Oker led Utah in scoring in Williams’ rookie year, Ben Gordon in Rose’s, Paul had nobody besides West, Westbrook no one besides Durant. But that’s not the case here- Lin should never be waiving Amar’e away from setting screens or be passing up chances to get the ball to Melo when he’s got deep post position- that’s point guard 101 and the fact that sometimes he’d rather drive the lane and throw up a fadeaway rather than do those things does raise a red flag. Seriously, Amar’e’s been one of the best pnr finishers in the game for the last 10 years (and he’s top 10 this year) and Lin’s is going to waive him away? He should be bending over backwards to try and get Amar’e and Melo involved and really hasn’t done it that much at all. I do think he’s been a great find and I do think he’ll get better but that doesn’t mean there aren’t valid reasons to criticize him.

    269. ruruland

      @309 mfc

      I take it the Nuggets weren’t a title contender when they outplayed the Lakers in 4 of their 6 WCF games, and won 75% of their games with Billups and Melo in the lineup together over a two-year stretch?

      Those Nets teams were garbage playing in of the NBA’s worst conferences, from a historical perspective.

      The idea isn’t necessarily to get Melo more shots. The idea is to get Melo the ball where he’s comfortable and extremely effective– making his teammates better!!!!

      If you refuse to coach off-ball isolation spacing and cutting, then of course you’re going to get shit results.

      The idea is to diversify your offense so that you maximize your talent. It doesn’t mean you run Melo isolations every play, it doesn’t mean you run 4-out every play. It means you come to a sensible solution, using both, creating an environment through coaching where both are embraced and accepted because the maximize the team’s ability.

      I mean, fucking honestly people, Melo is getting the blame because you have a coach who refuses to embrace the idea of having a post-player on his roster who can create for Lin (who’s looked really good penetrating to the basket off Melo isos) and everyone else.

      And you guys think Howard will work here? GTFO

    270. xduckshoex

      @305:
      There are a few problems with your post:

      1) Durant DOES have to fit in and play off the ball, and it was a source of media-manufactured problems between him and Westbrook. Ultimately, there was nothing there and Durant doesn’t mind playing off the ball even though it means that sometimes he won’t get to hold it for 1/3 of the possession.

      2) Melo is not as good as Kobe, Lebron or Wade. They generate offense for their team, he does not.

      3) Joe Johnson HAS had to do this, and he played well enough doing it to secure a $65+ million deal while posting the second best scoring efficiency of his career. The best scoring efficiency of his career was another season where Johnson had to move away from isolation ball as the team had no point guards who could shoot so they were virtually useless unless they were initiating the offense(Claxton and Anthony Johnson), the result was that Johnson’s assists went down but his scoring efficiency was significantly higher than all but his one season under D’Antoni.

      Unfortunately for Melo the team is more important than him right now. If he wants the ball in his hands all the time he’s going to have to create offense for the rest of the team and score with efficiency that is at least above the league average.

    271. ruruland

      nicos: The problem is that all those guys went to young teams who didn’t have a lot of established veterans and really weren’t expected to win. Lin’s usage is 30% and his assist rate is a very underwhelming 26%. That’s okay when you don’t have a lot of other talent- Oker led Utah in scoring in Williams’ rookie year, Ben Gordon in Rose’s, Paul had nobody besides West, Westbrook no one besides Durant. But that’s not the case here- Lin should never be waiving Amar’e away from setting screens or be passing up chances to get the ball to Melo when he’s got deep post position- that’s point guard 101 and the fact that sometimes he’d rather drive the lane and throw up a fadeaway rather than do those things does raise a red flag. Seriously, Amar’e’s been one of the best pnr finishers in the game for the last 10 years (and he’s top 10 this year) and Lin’s is going to waive him away? He should be bending over backwards to try and get Amar’e and Melo involved and really hasn’t done it that much at all. I do think he’s been a great find and I do think he’ll get better but that doesn’t mean there aren’t valid reasons to criticize him.

      You’re exactly right.

      You’ve got a coach who is clearly trying to upset the natural order by creating an environment where Lin is above criticism, where he is in full control of the game– this, a guy who’s a scorer first.

      You’ve basically said:Melo,Amar’e, you guys are going to take a backseat while we hand over full control to a guy who’s played 20 games in his career. Whatever decision he makes is the right one. Shut your mouth and hopes it works out.

      That’s why you handed out two max deals to these guys?

    272. xduckshoex

      @318 Sorry, if you outplay a team in four out of six games, you’re not the team that loses the series.

    273. letssee

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/sports/basketball/anthonys-return-has-hurt-the-knicks.html?_r=2&ref=sports

      While I do think Melo is talented and he should be integrated more, if he is not following the set plays, then it is definitely on Melo. But this seems more of media rumor. He said, she said.

      With the current line up and having followed D’antoni this far, the most effective way to finish the season is to play D’antoni basketball. But even at best, that won’t win championship.

      Come on! We practically threw away so many seasons, had to endure them, with one freaking hope of getting Lebron to have a fighting chance. Now we got Melo. He really is the only hope we the Knicks fan have. We can have all the cylinders with Lin, Novak, what is left of Amare, and Shump, but all we will get at best is the current 76ers.

    274. 2FOR18

      BigBlueAL: Im been thinking about this lately, realistically what can the Knicks do the rest of this season to make it a somewhat satisfying ending to the season??The reason Ive been so disenchanted with this team is because of the expectations of moving up in the standings enabling them to avoid the Bulls/Heat and give them a legitimate shot at winning a playoff series. They have no chance in hell of doing that now so basically all they are playing for is the 8th seed which means no realistic chance of even winning a game in the playoffs let alone a series.I guess for me right now if they can finish .500 (which means a 15-9 finish to the season) and get the 8th seed at least they wont be backing into the playoffs. Winning just 1 game which would mean their first playoff win since 2001 would be the best we can hope for. So I guess for me finish 33-33 and not get swept is the best we can realistically hope for which wont be that embarrassing a finish to the season.

      Best case scenario at this point is to win one of the top 3 picks in the lottery, since their pick is only top 5 protected.

    275. ruruland

      xduckshoex: @305:There are a few problems with your post:1) Durant DOES have to fit in and play off the ball, and it was a source of media-manufactured problems between him and Westbrook. Ultimately, there was nothing there and Durant doesn’t mind playing off the ball even though it means that sometimes he won’t get to hold it for 1/3 of the possession.2) Melo is not as good as Kobe, Lebron or Wade. They generate offense for their team, he does not.3) Joe Johnson HAS had to do this, and he played well enough doing it to secure a $65+ million deal while posting the second best scoring efficiency of his career. The best scoring efficiency of his career was another season where Johnson had to D’Antoni.P>

      1) What are you basing that on, OKC’s record? Are you in that locker room? Durant plays off the ball, but he also gets isolations — and they are embraced by the team because it ultimately makes them better. Again, my friend, not because they are the better shot for Durant from an efficiency perspective, but they create better shots for the team — you don’t see those things reflected in an individual’s assist numbers.

      2) Melo absolutely generates offense for his team and in fact, was quite good at it in Denver. It’s ridiculous to say he doesn’t.

      3)Ya think JJ’s TS was impacted, perhaps, by one Steve Nash?

      Here is the bottom line: Over the course of Melo’s career, Denver’s offense has been the upper half of the league in efficiency. But with Melo on the floor, they’ve typically been between 4-7 points better despite just above average TS% Obviously, that means that throughout his career Melo’s prescence in the offense has allowed it to be elite– which is not the case when he’s on the bench.

      Did you ever consider that that might be because Melo’s prescence with the ball creates good shots for teammates?

    276. ruruland

      xduckshoex: @318 Sorry, if you outplay a team in four out of six games, you’re not the team that loses the series.

      Yeah, I wonder if I’ve heard that retort before.

      You have a lead 75% of a series and lose games in the final few minutes because of a combination of things, many out of your control, and most having nothing to do with the Lakers beingthe better team, then you’ve outplayed a team.

      This is true in every sport.There’s always a variance there and the end result isn’t a finite, absolute indication of what transpired.

      Regardless, the point stands.

    277. 2FOR18

      Spree8nyk8: I’m not suggesting a temporary move Ben, I’m suggesting it as a potential permanent move. I think that Amar’e gets to play against lesser talent, has more space and a bigger role with the second unit. If he’s playing well he can still close games.

      I completely agree with your reasoning of putting Amare on the 2nd unit. It’s the only solution that I can see, assuming no personnel/coaching changes.

    278. Doug

      snickers: It’s a small heresy to a stats crowd, but I posit that you can tell a lot from non-stats performances. People don’t become different on the floor, they’re still the same people. The Wade Boggs that won the batting titles was the Wade Boggs that ate the chicken every day, even on non-game days. Priorities, awareness, discipline, those things. It’s not the whole story, obviously, but it’s at least half the story at this level.

      You might be able to, but half the time it’s just projecting false narrative sportswriter bullshit.

      Narrative is a fickle beast. Look at Dirk. Three years ago how many of us would use adjectives like “heart of a champion” and “intelligent” and “hall of fame” to describe him? NONE. Like Gideon said, Dirk was considered “soft”, a “frontrunner” and a “choker,” who didn’t rebound or play defense, especially after going down in the first round the Warriors in ’07. That was the season the Mavs were the #1 team in the league and he won the MVP.

      One ring later, and now he’s a basketball god. How quickly the worm turns.

    279. snickers

      max fisher-cohen:
      IF YOU HAVEN’T READ THE ARTICLE BELOW, READ IT

      Sorry for caps, but they’re called for here for once.

      It’s a strong piece, but it draws a false conclusion- “he must accept the glare.” That’s wrong- the way he was brought in ensures that he doesn’t have to accept the glare. It was Dolan’s decision. As long as Dolan is in control, he has the power in every relationship. We’ve seen this movie before. Dolan will probably make Carmelo Coach.

      Every time I see him on video, on court or off, I see a 15 year old boy, not an adult. That’s how he plays- he plays like he’s in high school.

      He’s not a bad guy, he doesn’t have a goal of sabotaging the team. He’s really doing the best he can. That’s the problem. The best he can do is not aligned with a D’Antoni team.

      The mental machinery to engage in the conversation the rest of the team and the coach is having, and to also be a big time star in a big city- this is not there for him. It’s not his fault, it’s just not there.

      Best for him to play for a coach who can help him grow. Like Mike Krzyzewski.

    280. xduckshoex

      ruruland:
      1) It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that Durant has no problem with the way things are in OKC right now. They re-signed Westbrook longterm for big money. Would they have done that if their franchise player didn’t like his current role on the team with him on the roster? Nope, they wouldn’t. Durant is happy in OKC. And I never said he never gets isolation plays called, I was responding to a post about how he has never had to play stretches without touching the ball; clearly that’s not the case.

      2) Melo does not generate offense for others. The teams offense performing better with him on the floor in Denver was due to the fact that he was a high usage player with better than average efficiency; using a lot of possessions more efficiently than your replacement makes your teams overall efficiency while you are on the floor, but it doesn’t necessarily create opportunities for your teammates. Melo’s career high assist percentage is not even close to the career low of Wade, Lebron or Kobe(post y2k).

      3) If it was Steve Nash that impacted his TS%, that doesn’t explain why his career high coincidentally came in another year he played off the ball more but was running with Speedy Claxton. See, we have two variables that could be responsible, but only one of them was present in both scenarios…so which one of them is more likely to be responsible?

      As for whether Melo’s presence with the ball creates good shots for teammates…is there anyone on the Knicks that is NOT having one of the worst shooting seasons of their career other than Tyson and Novak? Doesn’t that kind of take a giant dump all over that theory?

    281. letssee

      xduckshoex:
      @305:
      There are a few problems with your post:

      1)Durant DOES have to fit in and play off the ball, and it was a source of media-manufactured problems between him and Westbrook.Ultimately, there was nothing there and Durant doesn’t mind playing off the ball even though it means that sometimes he won’t get to hold it for 1/3 of the possession.

      2)Melo is not as good as Kobe, Lebron or Wade.They generate offense for their team, he does not.

      Fair posts. But look.
      1) The contest for more ball handling between Westbrook and Durant vs. Melo waiting for the ball last 5 minutes of a close game. Come on. No brainer right? I don’t think the thunders fans lost too much sleep over that.
      2) What’s in common in Kobe, Lebron, and Wade? They both played in championship-caliber teams (damn it Lebron, the words I was looking for were “championship teams.”) I’m not making it up when I say you need at least one superstar to contend and multiple of them to likely win it all. Who’s the closest one to being the superstar on the knicks roster? If we are not concerned about winning it all, then let’s have a dollar for two fifty cents trade asap before the deadline. We can fix the team up real fast, get some really hardworking, unselfish guys. Maybe we will win a game against Miami, not get good lottery, pay tons of money to mid-level guys, and give some more wins to D’antoni.

    282. 2FOR18

      jon abbey: here is a serious question for Melo’s defenders: if he is such a good offensive player, why does he have so much trouble finishing layups? I really think there’s some physical issue with him, I don’t believe that his struggles are all about the system and his teammates.

      I agree. It seems like he can’t jump anymore, so I’ve felt that there’s something wrong with his legs. I was encouraged by his 2 run out finishes last game.
      100% speculation with no proof – he looks a bit puffy in the face to me for a bball wing player, which makes me think that maybe he’s spending too much time bending his elbow at “the club” every night.

    283. xduckshoex

      letssee:
      2) What’s in common in Kobe, Lebron, and Wade? They both played in championship-caliber teams (damn it Lebron, the words I was looking for were “championship teams.”) I’m not making it up when I say you need at least one superstar to contend and multiple of them to likely win it all. Who’s the closest one to being the superstar on the knicks roster? If we are not concerned about winning it all, then let’s have a dollar for two fifty cents trade asap before the deadline. We can fix the team up real fast, get some really hardworking, unselfish guys. Maybe we will win a game against Miami, not get good lottery, pay tons of money to mid-level guys, and give some more wins to D’antoni.

      The other thing they have in common is that they are all clearly better than Melo.

      Again, your original point was that Melo is being asked to do something that those guys have never been asked to do; in the case o of Durant and Johnson you were wrong about that, but in the case of Lebron and Kobe you are overlooking the fact that Melo isn’t the same kind of player nor is he the same caliber of player. Lebron, Wade and to a lesser extent Kobe can justify having the ball from the start of every play because when they have it they score very efficiently with it and they create scoring opportunities for their teammates, each assisting on 24-34% of their teammates buckets while they are on the floor) Melo scores less efficiently than they do, and he doesn’t create those same opportunities for his teammates. It’s a key difference that can’t be ignored while trying to drum up some sympathy for Melo and his plight on this current Knicks team.

    284. max fisher-cohen

      jon abbey:
      this has been pretty clear to all of us for a while, certainly since the Philly game:

      http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7684157/mike-dantoni-lost-new-york-knicks-locker-room-according-sources

      Seems to be the same source Beck is drawing from. I can see both angles. Like you’ve said, there’s plenty of blame to go around. It’s definitely D’Antoni’s biggest weakness that he is non-confrontational, but there aren’t very many coaches in the league who are able to control prima donna superstars (which both these articles clearly make Melo out to be). Some coaches, like MDA, are too deferential, and some coaches, like Skiles, Calipari, Larry Brown.. Basically the only coach who has a track record of reforming and controlling big-ego players is Phil Jackson. Most disciplinarians are not charming or clever enough to avoid alienating players. Heck, George Karl is a damn good coach, highly respected, and even he never succeeded in reining in Melo. It’s quite possibly the most valuable asset a coach can have in the NBA.

      Popovich and Rivers both deserve some props for getting vets/headcases to adapt, but they always had a majority of vets to back them up. Only Jackson has managed an ego the size of Anthony’s.

    285. letssee

      xduckshoex: The other thing they have in common is that they are all clearly better than Melo.

      Again, your original point was that Melo is being asked to do something that those guys have never been asked to do; in the case o of Durant and Johnson you were wrong about that, but in the case of Lebron and Kobe you are overlooking the fact that Melo isn’t the same kind of player nor is he the same caliber of player.Lebron, Wade and to a lesser extent Kobe can justify having the ball from the start of every play because when they have it they score very efficiently with it and they create scoring opportunities for their teammates, each assisting on 24-34% of their teammates buckets while they are on the floor)Melo scores less efficiently than they do, and he doesn’t create those same opportunities for his teammates.It’s a key difference that can’t be ignored while trying to drum up some sympathy for Melo and his plight on this current Knicks team.

      I think we are arguing about a different thing. I don’t think Melo should get the ball every time. But the thing is, have you been watching the games? He doesn’t get the ball everytime. He gets isos occasionally, and like I said before, that is pretty much the only way to free him from double team because the knicks can’t spread the floor.

      You say Melo doesn’t generate offense. But really, it comes back to what I said about superstars. SUPERSTARS. By definition, they can eat up their defender one on one. So they draw double team. That creates offense because now you have an open man.

      So are you going to say that Melo isn’t a superstar? That Knicks have no superstar on the squad? Just another 76ers? No hope of winning if we keep building around Melo? You might be right. But I still want to believe otherwise.

    286. xduckshoex

      2FOR18: I agree. It seems like he can’t jump anymore, so I’ve felt that there’s something wrong with his legs. I was encouraged by his 2 run out finishes last game.
      100% speculation with no proof –he looks a bit puffy in the face to me for a bball wing player, which makes me think that maybe he’s spending too much time bending his elbow at “the club” every night.

      Well hoopdata.com tracks efficiency from various locations and while Melo’s efficiency at the rim is down it’s far from the worst in his career and not that far off from his career average. The biggest drop off from his typical efficiency is actually on his long twos and his threes.

      http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Carmelo%20Anthony

    287. ruruland

      xduckshoex: ruruland:1) It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that P>As for whether Melo’s presence with the ball creates good shots for teammates…is there anyone on the Knicks that is NOT having one of the worst shooting seasons of their career other than Tyson and Novak? Doesn’t that kind of take a giant dump all over that theory?

      I’ve had this discussion too many times and you’re not reffering to the ways I’ve addressed it in the past.

      If you don’t see how a player who creates double teams and rotations on the defense is an overwhelmingly positive thing there’s no point in having this discussion. There’s an extensive list of guys who had their best years playing with Melo for that extact reason. It’s much longer than the guys who’ve produced more efficiently w/out Melo.

      Look, Amar’e was struggling this year before he dropped weight and started playing with a pnr point guard. The Knicks didn’t feature Melo/Amar’e pnr.

      Fields has played very well with Melo. Chandler is havinga career year playing alongside Melo — I’m not saying that’s because of Melo’s prescence. Melo is not bieng given the opportunity to create easier shots for his teammates — THE KIND OF SHOTS PLAYERS AREN”T CREDITED WITH ASSISTS.

    288. snickers

      jon abbey:
      this has been pretty clear to all of us for a while, certainly since the Philly game:

      http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7684157/mike-dantoni-lost-new-york-knicks-locker-room-according-sources

      Great piece, and it suggests a perverse solution. Split the team into 2 separate units which each play their own styles. Best unit in +/- gets to play the last 6 minutes of the 4th.

      Baron
      JR
      Carmelo
      JJ
      Amare/Chandler

      Lin
      Shump
      Landry
      Novak/Jorts
      Chandler/Amare

    289. ruruland

      max fisher-cohen: Seems to be the same source Beck is drawing from. I can see both angles. Like you’ve said, there’s plenty of blame to go around. It’s definitely D’Antoni’s biggest weakness that he is non-confrontational, but there aren’t very many coaches in the league who are able to control prima donna superstars (which both these articles clearly make Melo out to be). Some coaches, like MDA, are too deferential, and some coaches, like Skiles, Calipari, Larry Brown.. Basically the only coach who has a track record of reforming and controlling big-ego players is Phil Jackson. Most disciplinarians are not charming or clever enough to avoid alienating players. Heck, George Karl is a damn good coach, highly respected, and even he never succeeded in reining in Melo. It’s quite possibly the most valuable asset a coach can have in the NBA.Popovich and Rivers both deserve some props for getting vets/headcases to adapt, but they always had a majority of vets to back them up. Only Jackson has managed an ego the size of Anthony’s.

      “Heck, George Karl is a damn good coach, highly respected, and even he never succeeded in reining in Melo.”

      By what definition did he not reign in Melo, and by what measure has GK had success reining in superstars?

      Ray Allen anyone?

    290. ruruland

      they create scoring opportunities for their teammates, each assisting on 24-34% of their teammates buckets while they are on the floor) Melo scores less efficiently than they do, and he doesn’t create those same opportunities for his teammates.

      This gets so tiring. Dwight Howard has a really low assist rate. Do you think the Magic are anywhere near the kind of shooting team they currently are without Howard?

      Why is it so difficult for you to wrap your mind around the concept that assists or assist rates don’t necessarily show how offense is generated, and by whom?

    291. xduckshoex

      ruruland:

      If you don’t see how a player who creates double teams and rotations on the defense is an overwhelmingly positive thing there’s no point in having this discussion. There’s an extensive list of guys who had their best years playing with Melo for that extact reason.

      I don’t think there is an extensive list of guys who had their best years playing with Melo.

      Nene? Nope.

      Billups? Nope.

      Smith? I guess, but he’s played almost his entire career with Melo so that doesn’t really matter.

      Iverson? Nope.

      Camby? Nope.

      Andre Miller? Nope.

      Steve Blake? Nope.

      Earl Boykins? Nope.

      Kenyon Martin? Nope.

      Ruben Patterson? Nope.

      Birdman? Nope.

      The more I look into it, the more curious I am to see your extensive list. So far all I’ve got are Kleiza(Melo’s backup) and Anthony Carter.

      And it’s also worth noting that going back as far as the 2007-08 season the Nuggets had a lower percentage of field goals assisted while Melo was on the floor than when he was on the bench. Sorry, there is just no evidence that Melo does anything to create opportunities for his teammates, ruruland. You can talk about how he does it all you want, but the fact that all of the evidence is pointing in the other direction is pretty damning.

    292. xduckshoex

      ruruland: This gets so tiring. Dwight Howard has a really low assist rate. Do you think the Magic are anywhere near the kind of shooting team they currently are without Howard?

      Why is it so difficult for you to wrap your mind around the concept that assists or assist rates don’t necessarily show how offense is generated, and by whom?

      Apples are less citrusy than oranges, since we’re making those kinds of comparisons. Melo is a predominantly perimeter scorer, why compare his impact to that of a dominant low post scorer?

    293. letssee

      Is this pretty much the worst way Linsanity could have ended, aside from injury? Lin and Field trying to believe in the coach, when Melo is blatantly breaking the play on his whim? Team crumbling by itself because of eff’ed up chemistry, and now about to lose MDA, the firm supporter of Lin? The feel good story has turned very sour. I have lost a lot of respect for Melo.

    294. nicos

      jon abbey:
      this has been pretty clear to all of us for a while, certainly since the Philly game:

      http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7684157/mike-dantoni-lost-new-york-knicks-locker-room-according-sources

      I don’t know, I can see the locker room being split to an extent but other than Melo, and maybe Davis and Chandler, I have a tough time believing that he’s lost everybody. Certainly, Amar’e, Lin, Jeffries, Fields, and probably the rookies are still backing D’A.

      And on the issue of Melo/D’A dynamic- my best guess is that D’A figures he’s lame duck coach and Lin has given him the only real chance he’s had to run his system in the entire time he’s been here so he’s going to run it whether or not Melo likes it or not and let the chips fall where they may. Poor choice? Probably so. I have no problem with cutting Melo’s iso opportunities down- iso’s are a relatively low percentage shot even when the best guys in the league take them and over the last three years (as far back as synergy goes) Melo’s been nowhere near the top in terms of ppp on isolation plays- I think his best ranking was 50. That said, he’s really good in the post and this year he’s been great running the pnr- if he’s going to play you have to try to get him in those situations more than they have been- if you get him four or five good post ups and let him run the high screen and roll a few times a half and he’s still pouting and breaking plays then all the blame shifts to Melo but right now it seems like D’A’s trying harder to prove that his system works than doing what’s best for team. That still doesn’t excuse Melo for breaking plays but unless they get on more or less the same page pretty quick,…

    295. ruruland

      xduckshoex: I don’t think there is an extensive list of guys who had their best years playing with Melo.Nene? Nope.Billups? Nope.Smith? I guess, but he’s played almost his entire career with Melo so that doesn’t really matter.Iverson? Nope.Camby? Nope.Andre Miller? Nope.Steve Blake? Nope.Earl Boykins? Nope.Kenyon Martin? Nope.Ruben Patterson? Nope.Birdman? Nope.The more I look into it, the more curious I am to see your extensive list. So far all I’ve got are Kleiza(Melo’s backup) and Anthony Carter.And it’s also worth noting that going back as far as the 2007-08 season the Nuggets had a lower percentage of field goals assisted while Melo was on the floor than when he was on the bench. Sorry, there is just no evidence that Melo does anything to create opportunities for his teammates, ruruland. You can talk about how he does it all you want, but the fact that all of the evidence is pointing in the other direction is pretty damning.

      That’s flat out wrong.

      Anyone can see for themselves to see who’d fudging this:

      Iverson: career years playing alongside melo TS%: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

      Nene:career years TS% playing alongside Melo, huge drop offwithout him
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hilarne01.html

      JR SMith:Vastly improved playing alongside Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjr01.html

      Eduardo Najera: career years playing alongside http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/najered01.html

      Kenyon Martin: all of his best TS% years playing alongside Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/martike01.html

      Are you just flat out lying or are did you not think I already knew their TS% numbers.. more to come

    296. letssee

      nicos: I don’t know, I can see the locker room being split to an extent but other than Melo, and maybe Davis and Chandler, I have a tough time believing that he’s lost everybody.Certainly, Amar’e, Lin, Jeffries, Fields, and probably the rookies are still backing D’A.

      And on the issue of Melo/D’A dynamic- my best guess is that D’A figures he’s lame duck coach and Lin has given him the only real chance he’s had to run his system in the entire time he’s been here so he’s going to run it whether or not Melo likes it or not and let the chips fall where they may.Poor choice?Probably so.I have no problem with cutting Melo’s iso opportunities down- iso’s are a relatively low percentage shot even when the best guys in the league take them and over the last three years (as far back as synergy goes) Melo’s been nowhere near the top in terms of ppp on isolation plays- I think his best ranking was 50.That said, he’s really good in the post and this year he’s been great running the pnr- if he’s going to play you have to try to get him in those situations more than they have been- if you get him four or five good post ups and let him run the high screen and roll a few times a half and he’s still pouting and breaking plays then all the blame shifts to Melo but right now it seems like D’A’s trying harder to prove that his system works than doing what’s best for team.That still doesn’t excuse Melo for breaking plays but unless they get on more or less the same page pretty quick,…

      +1

    297. BigBlueAL

      Safe to say the game tonight is going to be very interesting. Portland is playing so bad right now it would be nice if the Knicks can get an easy win to stem all this negative stuff for the time being.

      One thing we cant complain about is the current team being boring lol

    298. snickers

      Doug: You might be able to, but half the time it’s just projecting false narrative sportswriter bullshit.

      Narrative is a fickle beast. Look at Dirk. Three years ago how many of us would use adjectives like “heart of a champion” and “intelligent” and “hall of fame” to describe him? NONE. Like Gideon said, Dirk was considered “soft”, a “frontrunner” and a “choker,” who didn’t rebound or play defense, especially after going down in the first round the Warriors in ’07. That was the season the Mavs were the #1 team in the league and he won the MVP.

      One ring later, and now he’s a basketball god. How quickly the worm turns.

      Don’t disagree; most non-statistical narrative analysis is garbage. (Obviously even a lot of statistical analysis.)

      But I still say it’s a fair topic. Dirk was a different player in 2011 compared to 2007. He was different to watch. He *wanted* it in 2011. Those emotional dynamics are in part what make for compelling sports.

      And they’re the tectonic plates of team composition. If they’re not right, no one performs to spec, and nothing survives the earthquake. If they’re right, then you get more consistent performances, and it becomes about tactics and percentages.

      A positive narrative has certainly helped Carmelo. His NCAA championship, his individual “victories” over LeBron and others, his performance in the Olympics- these results brought him more credibility than his statistical performance ever deserved.

      While those were positive events for Carmelo, I still call them hollow, from a personality or emotional maturity perspective. They’re “child prodigy” successes.

    299. limpidgimp

      jon abbey:
      this has been pretty clear to all of us for a while, certainly since the Philly game:

      http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7684157/mike-dantoni-lost-new-york-knicks-locker-room-according-sources

      Thanks for the link. That’s the first time I’ve read an article pointing out how Melo’s refusal to, following D’Antoni’s system, stay on the wing has affected the spacing of the high PnR. That clarifies some of what I’ve been seeing recently in opposing defenses but didn’t understand why.

    300. letssee

      snickers:
      Long time reader, rare writer. Against the opinion of many on the board with superior basketball knowledge, I’m in the camp that says the problem with the team *is* Carmelo, not Amare and not D’Antoni.

      It’s not the play on the court that tells this story, it’s the personality dynamics. We’re all familiar with Carmelo’s selfish arrival in NYC, but every day it’s visible in a more pronounced fashion in interviews. They’re like interviews with George W Bush- reporters using kid gloves, serving softball questions, straining against their professional interest to keep him from saying something painful. It’s embarrassing.

      Carmelo is a child prodigy as a basketball player, but as a person he’s in over his head. We’ve seen in sport after sport that guys with talent and without the makeup almost never succeed here.

      Amare and Chandler and even Lin, just about everyone else except JR Smith and the unfortunate _____, have perspective, know their limitations, know how to go about their business. Most of the guys on the roster can fit as pieces on a really good team, and they know it. But that team can’t come together with Carmelo- and they know that too.

      This reflects itself in Amare’s often less-than-distinguished play. He’s aware that there’s no future in this combination of personalities. It’s stupid to overcommit to a failing cause. He would never say that, but that’s how it’s playing out.

      Wrt D’Antoni- agree he makes a lot of coaching mistakes. Certainly Collins or Skiles would handle most game situations differently. But that’s part of D’Antoni’s approach. He recognizes that the players play. To a first approximation, he watches how they make decisions, he doesn’t make them for them. That’s why many players love playing for him. And a good D’Antoni team is great for fans.

      Called it before the brussard article came out. Good…

    301. ruruland

      Earl Boykins 3 years above career TS% with Melo:
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boykiea01.html

      Chris Andersen: Best years playing alongside Melo (not Chris Paul)
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anderch01.html

      Andre Miller: Higher TS% with Melo than career average
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millean02.html

      Francisco Elson:Career year with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/elsonfr01.html

      Greg Buckner:Career years with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/buckngr01.html

      Demarr Johnson:Career years with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsde03.html

      Ruben Patterson: Above career average TS% with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/patteru01.html

      Earl Watson:Career year playing alongside Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/watsoea01.html

      Reggie Evans: Career high TS%
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansre01.html

      Chauncey Billups:Career high TS% with Melo and three years above his 8 year and career average
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/billuch01.html

      Dhantay Jones:above career average with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesda02.html

      Johan Petro: career high with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/petrojo01.html

      Can’t believe you, supposedly a stat guy, was dumb enough to think I didn’t know these things.

      More to come

    302. ruruland

      snickers: Don’t disagree; most non-statistical narrative analysis is garbage. (Obviously even a lot of statistical analysis.) But I still say it’s a fair topic. Dirk was a different player in 2011 compared to 2007. He was different to watch. He *wanted* it in 2011. Those emotional dynamics are in part what make for compelling sports. And they’re the tectonic plates of team composition. If they’re not right, no one performs to spec, and nothing survives the earthquake. If they’re right, then you get more consistent performances, and it becomes about tactics and percentages. A positive narrative has certainly helped Carmelo. His NCAA championship, his individual “victories” over LeBron and others, his performance in the Olympics- these results brought him more credibility than his statistical performance ever deserved. While those were positive events for Carmelo, I still call them hollow, from a personality or emotional maturity perspective. They’re “child prodigy” successes.

      Playoff run of ’09? Hollow?

      Highest usage guy in league (among top 5) on efficient offense, playoffs ever year???

      Career 60% win percentage when in lineup???

      All that hollow, too?

    303. ruruland

      xduckshoex: I don’t think there is an extensive list of guys who had their best years playing with Melo.Nene? Nope.Billups? Nope.Smith? I guess, but he’s played almost his entire career with Melo so that doesn’t really matter.Iverson? Nope.Camby? Nope.Andre Miller? Nope.Steve Blake? Nope.Earl Boykins? Nope.Kenyon Martin? Nope.Ruben Patterson? Nope.Birdman? Nope.The more I look into it, the more curious I am to see your extensive list. So far all I’ve got are Kleiza(Melo’s backup) and Anthony Carter.And it’s also worth noting that going back as far as the 2007-08 season the Nuggets had a lower percentage of field goals assisted while Melo was on the floor than when he was on the bench. Sorry, there is just no evidence that Melo does anything to create opportunities for his teammates, ruruland. You can talk about how he does it all you want, but the fact that all of the evidence is pointing in the other direction is pretty damning.

      And again, I’m trying really hard not to get angry right now, but the lower assisted percentage is obviously a result of a much higher isolation% from Melo unassisted baskets …..

      Moreover, manygoodshots out of double teams are when the player drives or gets fouled against a rotating defender– there’s generally no assist on that kind of play.

      Explain how the 4-7 point positivepoint differential with him on the floor when manyof his teammates posted nearly as high or higher TS% — manyof them (Like JR and Andersen) playing an awful lot of minutes with Melo on bench.

    304. ruruland

      Balkman:
      career high TS% with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balkmre01.html

      Joey Graham: career highTS% with MElo

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grahajo01.html

      Arron Aflallo: career high TS% with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/afflaar01.html

      Ty Lawson:career high TS% with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lawsoty01.html

      I’m glad you saved me the workof having to post Klieza’s and Carter’s numbers…..

      Can’t believe you would flat out lie like that to try to get a point across.

    305. ruruland

      xduckshoex: Apples are less citrusy than oranges, since we’re making those kinds of comparisons. Melo is a predominantly perimeter scorer, why compare his impact to that of a dominant low post scorer?

      Now you won’t even acknowledge or perhaps don’t understand that Melo creates double teams. You seriously should reconsider participating in future discussions on this topic.

    306. xduckshoex

      @347

      Iverson saw an efficiency increase as his usage went down, and even that falls into the realm of what is known as being “statistically insignificant”. It went from .535 with in 2005 to .543 in 2006 without Melo to .545 in 2007 and .567 in 2008 with Melo. Players often see increases or decreases of that magnitude even when absolutely nothing changes. Lebron James has seen his go up more than that from last season to this one, are we going to give credit to one of his teammates for that? Of course not, it’s a standard variation. You would think that someone who spends so much time speaking up for a player who has posted TS percentages of .568, .532, .548, .557 and .500 over the last five years would know that already.

      Nene played his entire career without Melo before this season, where his usage has gone up and his efficiency has gone down. Dubious example at best.

      JR Smith has never played significant minutes in the NBA without Melo. No way that can qualify.

      Kenyon Martin? You can’t give Melo credit for that career high because Martin played 6 seasons with him and only hit that number once. Martin also had the second worst scoring efficiency of his career playing with Melo.

      Najera? His high under Melo was .609, before playing with Melo his high was .590. Again, statistically insignificant.

      So your examples are either statistically insignificant, or they don’t work because the player in question played multiple seasons with Melo and this so-called impact that Melo had was only there sometimes. That’s what happens when you try to take something complex like that and boil it down to one factor: it never holds up to scrutiny.

    307. ruruland

      xduckshoex: @347Iverson saw an efficiency increase as his usage went down, and even that falls into the realm of what is known as being “statistically insignificant”. It went from .535 with in 2005 to .543 in 2006 without Melo to .545 in 2007 and .567 in 2008 with Melo. Players often see increases or decreases of that magnitude even when absolutely nothing changes. Lebron James has seen his go up more than that from last season to this one, are we going to give credit to one of his teammates for that? Of course not, it’s a standard variation. You would think that someone who spends so much time speaking up for a player who has posted TS percentages of .568, .532, .548, .557 and .500 over the last five years would know that already.Nene played his entire career without Melo before this season, where his usage has gone up and his efficiency has gone down. Dubious example at best.JR Smith has never played significant minutes in the NBA without Melo. No way that can qualify. P>

      Uh,Martin’scareer numbers in Denver clearly show that in aggregate he was much more efficient with Melo. Same with just about every guyon that list.

      When you consistently see players either post career TS% or above/ well above average TS% on hundreds of shots overs thousands of minutes (for the most part) andyou want to ignore that– then frankly there isn’t anything in this game that isn’t stastically insignificant.

      This is not anecdotal. Up and down every roster, with but a few exceptions, players shot well above their career TS% averages when playing with Melo.

      And, you defeat your own argument, actually,because if it’s the increased usage that’s dropping players %, and they had lower usage and higher TS% with Melo, then purely by default Melo made or allowed them to be more efficient.

    308. xduckshoex

      ruruland: Now you won’t even acknowledge or perhaps don’t understand that Melo creates double teams. You seriously should reconsider participating in future discussions on this topic.

      This doesn’t make sense.

      You’re claiming that Melo generates offense for his teammates as a perimeter player, why is the only comparison you can drum up a low post player who has a very different role and obviously impacts the game in a very different way?

      It’s not about whether Melo draws double teams or not, it’s about whether he generates offense for his teammates in any way. So far everything you are saying on the subject is a huge stretch with no actual proof of any kind.

      Here’s what I’ve never understood about the way people defend Melo. They always seem to talk about what the Melo ideal is, never what the Melo reality is. Yes, he has a lot of weapons in his offensive arsenal, and if utilized correctly he is an offensive force capable of shredding defenses at will. Unfortunately he doesn’t utilize those weapons in a manner that actually accomplishes that, and isn’t that what we should be concerned with? Isn’t the reality of what happens on the floor more important than the potential that exists if a player actually utilizes his skills in the proper way?

    309. ruruland

      And no, Nene was a rookie before Melo came into the league.Jr Smith played in New Orleans with CP3 before his TS% skyrocketed with Melo.

      You can try to come up with excuses for each example in this overwhelming case. Just as I surely could with any great player you’dlike to throw in the conservation. But I’m not as intellectually dishonest as you are.

      I’m not going to deny the basic geometrical reality that when player x has moreof the defense watching or guarding him player y and z are going to have an easier time of it.

      And if you don’t think Melo wasn’t one of the most double teamed players in basketball previous to playing in the corner in MDA’s offense, any with an above room-temp IQ who’s happened to accidently turn on ESPn a few times over the years would laugh in your face.

    310. xduckshoex

      ruruland:
      Balkman:
      career high TS% with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balkmre01.html

      Joey Graham: career highTS% with MElo

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grahajo01.html

      Arron Aflallo: career high TS% with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/afflaar01.html

      Ty Lawson:career high TS% with Melo
      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lawsoty01.html

      I’m glad you saved me the workof having to post Klieza’s and Carter’s numbers…..

      Can’t believe you would flat out lie like that to try to get a point across.

      Balkman: career low TS% playing with Melo as well.
      Joey Graham: career high by 0.4%
      Ty Lawson: actually saw his scoring efficiency go up immediately after Melo left town last season

      This practice of attributing a career high that happens to occur with Melo on the team to Melo’s presence is ridiculous. Every player has a career highs in every statistical category, and they don’t happen because the magical presence of one player makes it happen. That’s a gross over-simplification.

    311. xduckshoex

      ruruland:
      And no, Nene was a rookie before Melo came into the league.Jr Smith played in New Orleans with CP3 before his TS% skyrocketed with Melo.

      Hahaha really?

      Now you’re going to use the fact that young players, who tend to show improvement regardless, happened to do it alongside Melo as proof that Melo makes players better?

      Lebron James improved a lot after his rookie season as well. Which of his Cavs teammates are you going to give credit for that?

    312. ruruland

      xduckshoex: This doesn’t make sense.You’re claiming that Melo generates offense for his teammates as a perimeter player, why is the only comparison you can drum up a low post player who has a very different role and obviously impacts the game in a very different way?It’s not about whether Melo draws double teams or not, it’s about whether he generates offense for his teammates in any way. So far everything you are saying on the subject is a huge stretch with no actual proof of any kind. his skills in the proper way?

      He’s not a perimeter player, per se.He’s an elbow/wing high and mid-post who begins almost all of his possessions catching the ball with his back to the basket.

      While he faces up, the areas hec atches the ball and operates in tradtionally are much more in line with where post players catch the ball.

      You seem to think that being credited with an assist is the only way to generate offense. I’m not sure if I’ve heard or know of one basketball mind who would make such a,frankly, idiotic claim.

      This attempt to separate the ability to generate offense from the ability to create double teams but not assists is a completely transparent argument.

      Your biases are too obvious. Say Melo has played like dog shit this year. Say he’s had a bad attitude and hasn’t consistently brought forth enough effort. Say he’s been a poor leader.Say he’s posted above average TS% numbers but not elite.

      ALl of those claims would be true and honest criticisms. But to say his prescence creating defensive attention doesn’t allow and hasn’t historically allowed for easier opportunities for teammates is absolutely foolish by any argument you want to bring to the table.

    313. Gideon Zaga

      Seriously can you even hear yourself talk right now, isn’t Carmelo Anthony a low postplayer as well. Tell me the difference between his double teams and Howard’s double teams. I’m done with you son, i only debate facts not for arguments sake. and the shot that you took at the Melo defenders well same goes for you Melo haters.

      xduckshoex: This doesn’t make sense.

      You’re claiming that Melo generates offense for his teammates as a perimeter player, why is the only comparison you can drum up a low post player who has a very different role and obviously impacts the game in a very different way?

      Here’s what I’ve never understood about the way people defend Melo.They always seem to talk about what the Melo ideal is, never what the Melo reality is.Yes, he has a lot of weapons in his offensive arsenal, and if utilized correctly he is an offensive force capable of shredding defenses at will.Unfortunately he doesn’t utilize those weapons in a manner that actually accomplishes that, and isn’t that what we should be concerned with?Isn’t the reality of what happens on the floor more important than the potential that exists if a player actually utilizes his skills in the proper way?

    314. ruruland

      xduckshoex: Hahaha really?Now you’re going to use the fact that young players, who tend to show improvement regardless, happened to do it alongside Melo as proof that Melo makes players better?Lebron James improved a lot after his rookie season as well. Which of his Cavs teammates are you going to give credit for that?

      Uh, ok. It was more of an aside, making sure you’refactuallycorrect, as I’ve been throughout the thread. Nene’s efficiency is down this year, too,and I’ve already defeated your argument regarding usage.

      Sure, there are fluctuations with every guy in the league. But to write off the overwhelming pattern, the very obvious trend of guys consistently playing their best andmost efficient ball with Melo is to deny my argument andreality on the grounds that anything can be deemed arbitrary.

      It’s really sad to see someone who apparently claims to be statistically tostoop to that kind of rhetoric.

    315. ruruland

      xduckshoex: Every player has a career highs in every statistical category, and they don’t happen because the magical presence of one player makes it happen. That’s a gross over-simplification.

      So,all statistical highs and lows are random occurences?

    316. xduckshoex

      Gideon Zaga:
      Seriously can you even hear yourself talk right now, isn’t Carmelo Anthony a low postplayer as well. Tell me the difference between his double teams and Howard’s double teams. I’m done with you son, i only debate facts not for arguments sake. and the shot that you took at the Melo defenders well same goes for you Melo haters.

      Okay, here’s are some facts for you: Melo takes more than half of his shots from 16+ feet, and his has been true of him for years now. Thanks to Synergy Sports I can see that in the last 3 years the highest percentage of shots from post ups that Melo has had is 17.5%. That’s about 40% lower than the guy that you’re trying to compare him to. You can’t act like that doesn’t matter and pretend that Melo is not a perimeter player.

    317. 2FOR18

      xduckshoex: Well hoopdata.com tracks efficiency from various locations and while Melo’s efficiency at the rim is down it’s far from the worst in his career and not that far off from his career average. The biggest drop off from his typical efficiency is actually on his long twos and his threes.http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Carmelo%20Anthony

      Thanks for the link. Though it does show a pretty significant decline of 66% to 59% from last season to this season, which are the only seasons I’ve seen him play every game – so at least maybe my eyes haven’t been deceiving me re: his finishing this season…

    318. xduckshoex

      ruruland: So,all statistical highs and lows are random occurences?

      So, all statistical highs and lows are the result of playing with a particular player?

      See, I never said what you are questioning me on(I never mentioned random occurrences at all), but your whole point is what I am questioning you on.

    319. xduckshoex

      ruruland: Uh, ok. It was more of an aside, making sure you’refactuallycorrect, as I’ve been throughout the thread. Nene’s efficiency is down this year, too,and I’ve already defeated your argument regarding usage.

      Sure, there are fluctuationswith every guy in the league. But to write off the overwhelming pattern, the very obvious trend of guys consistently playing their best andmost efficient ball with Melo is to deny my argument andreality on the grounds that anything can be deemed arbitrary.

      It’s really sad to see someone who apparently claims to be statistically tostoop to that kind of rhetoric.

      The only thing that you are factually correct about is that some players have had their career highs playing alongside Melo. What is also factually correct is that the bulk of these are statistically insignificant(which you never acknowledge) or that they tend to be one shot deals with guys who played with Melo for a number of years(which you never really acknowledge either). If Melo is there every year, and this jump you are referring to only happens in one season then obviously that jump was not merely because Melo was on the floor, making things easier for him. It’s basic logic.

    320. ruruland

      xduckshoex: So, all statistical highs and lows are the result of playing with a particular player?See, I never said what you are questioning me on(I never mentioned random occurrences at all), but your whole point is what I am questioning you on.

      You know, what’s funny is that you started out this kerfuffle giving credence to the notion that a player can positively or negatively affect the performance of a teammate by either lazily, ignorantly, or maliciously attempting to misrepresent the numbers with Melo’s teammates……

      Then when you were exposed for misrepresenting the numbers you changed your argument to that any improvement orchange is random variation.

      You then denied what is clearly a very strong correlation between improved TS% and Melo’s prescence by trying to say that Melo isn’t directly,via an assist, creating those shots…….

    321. ruruland

      xduckshoex: The only thing that you are factually correct about is that some players have had their career highs playing alongside Melo. What is also factually correct is that the bulk of these are statistically insignificant(which you never acknowledge) or that they tend to be one shot deals with guys who played with Melo for a number of years(which you never really acknowledge either). If Melo is there every year, and this jump you are referring to only happens in one season then obviously that jump was not merely because Melo was on the floor, making things easier for him. It’s basic logic.

      There’s very distinct relationship that can be seen with these numbers. It shows very consistently, guys posting higher than averageTS% with Melo, and in many instances career high TS% with Melo.

      While the difference in career highs, in some instances,falls into the range of statistically insignificant, theTS% with Melo compared to theTS% in career and other locations certainly doesn’t on the whole.

    322. JK47

      The Pringles era is nearing its end, that much is for certain. It’s going to take a miracle to save his job.

    323. xduckshoex

      ruruland: You know, what’s funny is that you started out this kerfuffle giving credence to the notion that a player can positively or negatively affect the performance of a teammate by either lazily, ignorantly, or maliciously attempting to misrepresent the numbers with Melo’s teammates……

      Then when you were exposed for misrepresenting the numbers you changed your argument to that any improvement orchange is random variation.

      You then denied what is clearly a very strong correlation between improved TS% and Melo’s prescence by trying to say that Melo isn’t directly,via an assist, creating those shots…….

      I never misrepresented anything, you still haven’t provide anything that proves that Melo’s presence increases the efficiency of his teammates. Your proof is that some players have had their career highs in TS% playing with Melo, and that’s it. You completely ignore the fact that the changes are standard variations in statistical output even though it has been mentioned multiple times and you fail to offer any kind of explanation as to why this Melo effect only impacted one year of the multiple years these guys played together. Isn’t failing to account for both of those facts misrepresenting the data on your part?

      I also never said anything about random variations, I actually never used the word “random” until you started doing it. Isn’t it ironic that you are now making things up as you accuse me of lying?

    324. ruruland

      xduckshoex: I never misrepresented anything, you still haven’t provide anything that proves that Melo’s presence increases the efficiency of his teammates. Your proof is that some players have had their career highs in TS% playing with Melo, and that’s it. You completely ignore the fact that the changes are standard variations in statistical output even though it has been mentioned multiple times and you fail to offer any kind of explanation as to why this Melo effect only impacted one year of the multiple years these guys played together. Isn’t failing to account for both of those facts misrepresenting the data on your part? I also never said anything about random variations, I actually never used the word “random” until you started doing it. Isn’t it ironic that you are now making things up as you accuse me of lying?

      no, that’s not true. While there were many, many, career highs, their were also sustained TS% above career average for virtually every player Melo played with in Denver .

      Do I need to goback and show you the percentage of time Melo’s teammates posted above career averageTS% on a per annum basis?

      The numbers areeven more overwhelming when you just look at non-Melo season and with-Melo seasons.

    325. xduckshoex

      ruruland: There’s very distinct relationship that can be seen with these numbers. It shows very consistently, guys posting higher than averageTS% with Melo, and in many instances career high TS% with Melo.

      While the difference in career highs, in some instances,falls into the range of statistically insignificant, theTS% with Melo compared to theTS% in career and other locations certainly doesn’t on the whole.

      Sure it does. Variation by one or two points is statistically insignificant and in the bulk of these cases that is what you are talkig about.

      I mean, look at Nene: he played with Melo his entire career before this season(excluding his rookie season and this season), and his TS% ranged from .551 to .657 during that time. That’s a 10% difference with Melo as a constant, how can you actually conclude that Melo as a variable is what accounts for even smaller differences with other players? Again, it’s basic logic.

      See, the problem is that you are taking a lot of things that change: community, climate, head coach, teammates, opponents, practice schedule, training staff, equipment, maybe even things like diet and workout regimen…and trying to say that the only one of those that impacted performance was a solitary player. It doesn’t work like that. Performance varies from year to year because every year for every NBA player there are hundreds of things that are different. Trying to boil things down to one variable never holds up to scrutiny because it’s impossible to simplify a scenario that complex especially when there are more variables that you can’t account for than there are variables you can.

      Hell, George Karl is a constant in every single scenario that you have mentioned, why can’t we give him the credit? Going by your simple rules of deduction(“present for” is the same as “responsible for”) he has as much claim as…

    326. ruruland

      xduckshoex: Sure it does. Variation by one or two points is statistically insignificant and in the bulk of these cases that is what you are talkig about.I mean, look at Nene: he played with Melo his entire career before this season(excluding his rookie season and this season), and his TS% ranged from .551 to .657 during that time. That’s a 10% difference with Melo as a constant, how can you actually conclude that Melo as a variable is what accounts for even smaller differences with other players? Again, it’s basic logic. See, the problem is that you are taking a lot of things that change: community, climate, head coach, teammates, opponents, practice schedule, training staff, equipment, maybe even things like diet and workout regimen…and trying to say that the only one of those that impacted performance was a solitary player. It doesn’t work like that. Performance varies from year to year because every year for every NBA player there are hundreds of things that are different. Trying to boil things down to one variable never holds up to scrutiny because it’s impossible to simplify a scenario that complex especially when there are more variables that you can’t account for than there are variables you can.Hell, George Karl is a constant in every single scenario that you have mentioned, why can’t we give him the credit? Going by your simple rules of deduction(“present for” is the same as “responsible for”) he has as much claim as…

      So, the improvements in Steve Nash’s teammates are just aslikely to be attributable to the team chef as they are to Nash.

      The fact that you won’t acknowledge that a)Melo creates double teams and defensive attention b)That allows for more efficient offense from players on the court c)that is the most likely variable causing these improvements shows me you’re not willing to be serious about this.

    327. xduckshoex

      ruruland: no, that’s not true. While there were many, many, career highs, their were also sustained TS% above career average for virtually every player Melo played with in Denver .

      Do I need to goback and show you the percentage of time Melo’s teammates posted above career averageTS% on a per annum basis?

      The numbers areeven more overwhelming when you just look at non-Melo season and with-Melo seasons.

      Kenyon Martin started playing with Melo in his fifth season, in his fourth season(without Melo) he posted a TS% of .528, which is right in line with his averages in Denver. His TS% has risen every year to that point. What we have there is a young player who improved every year until he became the average efficiency scorer he would be for the rest of his career. That makes a lot more sense.

      Smith and Nene played the bulk of their career with Melo and started playing with him young.

      Other guys you mentioned put up similar numbers elsewhere and didn’t play with Melo long enough to form a significant sample size.

      If you had guys who had long periods of mediocrity elsewhere followed by significantly improved play alongside Melo you would have a point, but you don’t have that. You have young guys who improved while playing next to him or you have guys posting numbers with completely normal statistical variations. None of it means what you think it does.

    328. ruruland

      xduckshoex: Kenyon Martin started playing with Melo in his fifth season, in his fourth season(without Melo) he posted a TS% of .528, which is right in line with his averages in Denver. His TS% has risen every year to that point. What we have there is a young player who improved every year until he became the average efficiency scorer he would be for the rest of his career. That makes a lot more sense.Smith and Nene played the bulk of their career with Melo and started playing with him young. Other guys you mentioned put up similar numbers elsewhere and didn’t play with Melo long enough to form a significant sample size.If you had guys who had long periods of mediocrity elsewhere followed by significantly improved play alongside Melo you would have a point, but you don’t have that. You have young guys who improved while playing next to him or you have guys posting numbers with completely normal statistical variations. None of it means what you think it does.

      Kenyon Martin was a young player in Denver? You understand he endured significant knee injuries in Denver that he did not have to deal with NJ, where he played with Jason freaking Kidd in his prime?

      There is consistent and sustained improvement in TS% from young players, veterans, journeyman and everything in between, The correlation is obvious ,and so should be the causation– anyone who understands basketball would acknowledge that.

    329. xduckshoex

      ruruland: So, the improvements in Steve Nash’s teammates are just aslikely to be attributable to the team chef as they are to Nash.

      The fact that you won’t acknowledge that a)Melo creates double teams and defensive attention b)That allows for more efficient offense from players on the court c)that is the most likely variable causing these improvements shows me you’re not willing tobe serious about this.

      The first part is an obvious attempt at completely avoiding actually responding to my point(remember when I said you tend to oversimplify things, then restate your simplification sarcastically? Thanks for a great example) about the amount of variables at play.

      The second is an attempt to change the subject to an irrelevant discussion about whether Melo draws double teams. I don’t care if he does or if he does not, we are talking about whether there is evidence that it actually improves generates offense for his teammates.

      You keep changing your argument. First it’s about whether Melo draws double teams, then you attempt to prove that there is a verifiable impact that Melo has on his teammates, then you try to argue that Melo is a post up player like Dwight Howard, and you just switch from one to the other as information is brought forward which shows why your argument doesn’t work.

      You have a theory that Melo’s presence disrupts the defense and allows his teammates to perform better and you’re trying to fit round facts into square holes to prove it. Unfortunately for you the numbers actually tell a different story, one of an individual player who stifles ball movement but who was fairly efficient despite using a lot of possessions(so much so that his team performed better even though he didn’t create chances for them) so it never hurt his team until he got moved to one where he had to play with teammates instead of watching them…

    330. New Guy

      Gideon Zaga:
      So your reason for Anthony being the problem is because of his Fashion Interviews.

      Gideon Zaga: it’s visible in a more pronounced fashion in interviews.

      If I may respectfully point out (before you kill him again bc you think he attacked Melo for his style), I think you misunderstood his use of the word fashion there.

    331. xduckshoex

      ruruland: Kenyon Martin was a young player in Denver? You understand he endured significant knee injuries in Denver that he did not have to deal with NJ, where he played with Jason freaking Kidd in his prime?

      There is consistent and sustained improvement in TS% from young players, veterans, journeyman and everything in between, The correlation is obvious ,and so should be the causation– anyone who understands basketball would acknowledge that.

      Did you not read that post? I said that Martin started playing with Melo in his fifth season, why are you acting like I somehow said that he was young?

      And there is not “consistent and sustained” improvement. There are fluctuations all over the place. Nene has a range that varies by over 10 full points while playing with Melo. JR Smith’s has a range that varies by over 8 full points while playing with Melo. Guys like Iverson, Najera and Graham saw statistically insignificant increases, and Iverson and Najera’s time in Denver is a really small sample given the length of their careers. Guys like Camby and Andre Miller aren’t mentioned at all because they don’t fit your narrative. Afflalo is in his fifth season and is putting up numbers almost identical to what he did in one of his two seasons with Melo. Ty Lawson is only in his third season and is adjusting to being a starting point guard. The point? You’re cherry picking what works and ignoring everything else.

    332. 2FOR18

      ruruland: Uh, ok. It was more of an aside, making sure you’refactuallycorrect, as I’ve been throughout the thread. Nene’s efficiency is down this year, too,and I’ve already defeated your argument regarding usage.Sure, there are fluctuations with every guy in the league. But to write off the overwhelming pattern, the very obvious trend of guys consistently playing their best andmost efficient ball with Melo is to deny my argument andreality on the grounds that anything can be deemed arbitrary. It’s really sad to see someone who apparently claims to be statistically tostoop to that kind of rhetoric.

      Nene has been playing hurt all year. It’s not fair to lay his poorer numbers on having Melo off his team.

    333. New Guy

      Speaking of Nene, what evidence is there, RuRu, that leads you to attribute all the career high TS%’s to playing with Melo as opposed to playing with Nene? He was there in Denver every year Melo was. Those players all had their best TS%’s playing with Nene.

      Maybe JR Smith holds the answer. He still has Melo (but not Nene), so his TS% should be in line with his career norm or higher. But it’s a career low! Same with Baron. Same with Amare. Even Novak is down 7 pts from last year. Hmm…

    334. Juany8

      Jesus guys, I know ruruland defends Melo almost to the point of irrationality, but pretending that creating double teams is meaningless unless there’s a recorded stat is just dumb. There’s a lot of perfectly good arguments to make against Melo without ignoring how basketball works. Until there’s some way to measure both skill sets and how teammates impact one another, most advanced stats are childish and flawed from a mathematical perspective, not just a basketball perspective (let’s just say if I ever made an objective decision in my job based on something like WS/48 I’d be fired, my boss expects me to do better than a high schooler lol)

      Melo has been historically better at drawing double teams than all but around 5-10 guys in the league, you can ignore this if you want, but that’s why he gets the level of respect he does in this league. I don’t see how it’s hard to understand that when a player like Afflalo takes an open, high efficiency shot, it’s because his defender considered him a lesser threat than the player being helped on. That means that defenses don’t game plan much around Afflalo, and they certainly don’t consider stopping him a priority. Again, there’s plenty of valid arguments to make against Melo (and certainly Amar’e) without pretending this is fantasy basketball, and that the result matters more than the way its achieved (this leads to teams like Miami getting all excited because they blow away teams with fast break opportunities in the regular season, ignoring that those opportunities WILL go away late in the playoffs. But hey, they have a high point differential, who cares how they got it right?)

    335. New Guy

      Wait a second.all RuRu’s TS% stats are post 2004. So aren’t they equally attributable to playing in George Karl’s offense?

    336. Nick C.

      Juany8: Jesus guys, I know ruruland defends Melo almost to the point of irrationality, but pretending that creating double teams is meaningless unless there’s a recorded stat is just dumb. There’s a lot of perfectly good arguments to make against Melo without ignoring how basketball works. Until there’s some way to measure both skill sets and how teammates impact one another, most advanced stats are childish and flawed from a mathematical perspective, not just a basketball perspective (let’s just say if I ever made an objective decision in my job based on something like WS/48 I’d be fired, my boss expects me to do better than a high schooler lol)Melo has been historically better at drawing double teams than all but around 5-10 guys in the league, you can ignore this if you want, but that’s why he gets the level of respect he does in this league. I don’t see how it’s hard to understand that when a player like Afflalo takes an open, high efficiency shot, it’s because his defender considered him a lesser threat than the player being helped on. That means that defenses don’t game plan much around Afflalo, and they certainly don’t consider stopping him a priority. Again, there’s plenty of valid arguments to make against Melo (and certainly Amar’e) without pretending this is fantasy basketball, and that the result matters more than the way its achieved (this leads to teams like Miami getting all excited because they blow away teams with fast break opportunities in the regular season, ignoring that those opportunities WILL go away late in the playoffs. But hey, they have a high point differential, who cares how they got it right?)

      and Eddy Curry and Zach Randolph both playing down low was going to be unguardable and result in tons of open kickouts.
      BTW Afflalo had been going off over the last two weeks or at least posting 20+ games regularly.

    337. Frank

      Wow – Ruru and duckshoes really need to get some sleep. I can just see those two in the dark yelling at their screens.

      Anyway, it’s ridiculous to think that drawing double teams is not useful at some level to the offense. All you have to do is watch the game we just played against the Bulls, where the entire Knicks defense was focused on Rose, leading to 35 “open” jumpers for other Bulls players (according to @stats_hoops – it’s the twitter account that gets #s from sportvu, that awesome camera system that tracks every last thing that ever happens on the court), not to mention the poor positioning that (in part) led to the 22 o-rebounds. The question is what you do with the ball when double teamed. If you go 1-on-2 like Eddy Curry, it’s bad. If you pass the ball to the open man forcing rotations or an open shot, it’s a good thing. The problem with Melo is that he’s too inconsistent with ball movement, and that the other players on the team tend to sit around and watch him (prob because he’s inconsistent with his ball movement).

      I think they really need to get the ball his Melo’s hands again. Play Lin 32 min/game, have him do his thing on 2/3 of the possessions. The other 1/3, let Melo have the ball in the post or as the PNR ball handler and do his thing. I know this whole firestorm happened right after a tough loss to the Bulls, but if you watch the offense, there were A LOT of promising things going on. Lin running PNR with Melo. Lin running PNR with Amare. Lin running PNR with Melo or TC with Amare cutting to the basket. Melo running PNR with TC/Amare. We didn’t lose that game because of the offense, which is what everyone is talking about here. We lost because we got absolutely murdered on the defensive boards, which to be honest, is mostly a PF/C problem.

      The +/- #s in the beck article obviously aren’t good, and the not-being-in-the-huddle stuff is worrisome, but I really feel like most of this is media sensationalism.

    338. Frank

      Just to expand on my last post–
      if you look at Synergy’s #s this year for Melo – his best performances are as the PNR ball handler (1.12 PPP on 13.4% of all his possessions, good for 2nd in the league) and in the post (0.99 PPP on 89 possessions, 13th in the league). He has only 8 possessions as the PNR roll man, but has posted 1.25 PPP on those (very small sample obviously), but that would probably place him in the top 10 in the league. He’s been terrible on ISOs this year for whatever reason, only 0.71 PPP.

      So to me, the answer is – when he’s on the floor with Amare, Chandler, and Lin, they should let him be the primary PNR ball handler every now and again, or run that awesome play where he is the roll man and Amare or TC cut to the hoop at the right time. Or play him in the post and have him either force a double team to get the ball movement going, or do his thing and score, with other guys spotting up behind the arc or crashing the offensive boards.

      As I wrote that, I just realized that this starting lineup really is just not well put together. There are a bunch of guys with duplicated strengths and no real deadeye shooter to really space things out.

    339. Gideon Zaga

      Well of course not, why do u think we’re making this argument, like all the others its not been made up yet.

      New Guy:
      Is there a site that keeps track of the amount of times a player is doubled?

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