Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, August 28, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 05 2013)

  • [New York Daily News] With Melo out, STAT steps up as Knicks beat Cavs (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 06:34:33 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony fell and it was Amar’e Stoudemire who got up. The Knicks rallied from a 22-point second quarter deficit to defeat the woeful Cleveland Cavaliers 102-97 despite Anthony injuring his right knee and spending the last 31 minutes in the locker room.

  • [New York Times] Wade, James Lead Heat to Record 15th Straight Win (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 08:17:13 GMT)
    Dwyane Wade has seen a lot in his 10 years on South Beach. He’s won championships and lost them. He’s been on top of the basketball world and at the bottom of the heap.

  • [New York Times] Warriors Top Raptors 125-118 to Snap 4-Game Skid (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 07:34:47 GMT)
    Stephen Curry dribbled down court and saw Andrew Bogut sprinting to his left. He tossed a lob well above the rim, and Bogut leaped up high for a powerful two-handed dunk that had the rest of the Golden State Warriors running off the bench to offer high-fives and hugs in celebration.

  • [New York Times] Blazers Rout the Bobcats 122-105 (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 05:37:41 GMT)
    LaMarcus Aldridge had 23 points and 14 rebounds, and the Portland Trail Blazers handed the Charlotte Bobcats their seventh straight loss with a 122-105 victory on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Carmelo Injures Knee, Knicks Rally Back to Beat Cavaliers (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 05:22:36 GMT)
    All Star forward Carmelo Anthony went down with a knee injury but the New York Knicks deferred their concern long enough to overcome a 22-point deficit and beat the Cleveland Cavaliers 102-97 on Monday.

  • [New York Times] Afflalo Leads Magic Past Hornets 105-102 (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 05:05:21 GMT)
    Arron Afflalo bolted through a crowd of Hornets defenders as he angled toward the hoop, switching the ball from his left hand to his right to hit a layup Orlando needed to keep another game from slipping away.

  • [New York Times] Heat Defeat Timberwolves (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:40:59 GMT)
    Dwyane Wade had 32 points and LeBron James added 20 to help the Heat defeat the Timberwolves.

  • [New York Times] Knicks 102, Cavaliers 97: Amar’e Stoudemire Leads Comeback After Carmelo Anthony Stumbles (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:37:11 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony left the game after falling, but the Knicks still managed to come back from a 22-point deficit to beat the Cavaliers in Cleveland.

  • [New York Times] Nuggets Beat Short-Handed Hawks 104-88 (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:31:53 GMT)
    Corey Brewer scored 22 points and Ty Lawson had 18 in the Denver Nuggets’ 104-88 win over the depleted Atlanta Hawks on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Knicks Rally Without Melo, Beat Cavaliers 102-97 (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:13:51 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony tripped, stumbled and fell.

  • [New York Times] Ellis, Bucks Beat Jazz 109-108 in Overtime (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:08:14 GMT)
    Monta Ellis scored 34 points, Brandon Jennings added 20 points and 17 assists, and the Milwaukee Bucks beat the Utah Jazz 109-108 in overtime Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Nets’ Careless Play Is Costing Them (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 02:48:37 GMT)
    Nets Coach P. J. Carlesimo points to turnovers and insufficient defensive effort as key problems for his team. The Nets have lost four of their last five games.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Best N.B.A. Games of the Week (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 02:37:16 GMT)
    The best N.B.A. games of the week include the Thunder at Knicks, Grizzlies at Cavaliers and Rockets at Warriors.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Section 15: The German (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 02:30:42 GMT)
    Toby Rolfes, a lawyer from Cologne, Germany, visited Barclays Center to cheer for his countryman Dirk Nowitzki when the Mavericks played the Nets.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Anthony Injures Knee (Tue, 05 Mar 2013 01:25:56 GMT)
    Knicks All-Star forward Carmelo Anthony injured his right knee against the Cavaliers and will not return.

  • 147 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Mar 05 2013)

    1. danvt

      Remember when NYK projected to 60 wins this year? Now I’d be happy with 50. I know the Knicks won’t win a championship this year or the two after it. Viva the next rebuild. You can’t start it too soon for me. K’s need to win a championship in my lifetime and I ain’t gettin’ any younger. I don’t feel like a Cubs fan. I’m jealous of Cubs fans! The Cubs have a better chance of winning a World Series then NYK has of winning it all in the next decade.

      But the TV still flips on. I still have a demented hope. Really more of a suspension of disbelief.

      Right now it might help to have Melo take some time off. The team couldn’t be worse than they are with him. Then everyone can calm down their expectations, see some improvement in team concept, and hopefully provide some reason to believe, even if it’s ultimately short lived.

    2. Frank

      danvt: Right now it might help to have Melo take some time off. The team couldn’t be worse than they are with him. Then everyone can calm down their expectations, see some improvement in team concept, and hopefully provide some reason to believe, even if it’s ultimately short lived.

      dude you need to step back from the ledge. we’re the 3rd seed in the Eastern conference (actually with 1 less loss than the Pacers) and are up 5 in the loss column against Brooklyn for the Atlantic lead. We just took Miami to the wire despite missing 15 completely unguarded 3 pointers and Woodson not playing Amare for some reason down the stretch. Our best perimeter defender is still getting back to himself, our backup center(s) have been injured the whole year, and Woodson is still figuring out the rotations.

      Yes, the 1st half yesterday was putrid, but honestly, Cleveland could have taken half court shots in that 1st half and hit them – everything was just going in no matter what they threw up.

      We have 18 games in March and so far are 2-1. I think we’ve got a pretty decent chance to go 9-6 over the rest of this stretch with winnable games against Detroit, Golden State, Portland, Orlando, Torontox2, Charlotte, and Boston, + pulling one of the other games out. That means we’ll have 45 wins going into April. My guess is we end up in the 51-54 win range, winning the Atlantic relatively easily, and ending up with either the 2 or 3 seed. That’s a successful regular season IMHO. Maybe not what we were hoping for after the 18-5 start, but very very respectable.

    3. Frank

      Looking at Indy’s schedule I think it’ll be pretty tough for us to beat them out for the 2nd seed. 3rd seed is not so bad.

    4. d-mar

      Frank:
      Looking at Indy’s schedule I think it’ll be pretty tough for us to beat them out for the 2nd seed. 3rd seed is not so bad.

      Agree, assuming we and Indy get out of the 1st round, it just means they get home court in the 2nd. I’d still like our chances.

      Also, regarding last night, we can’t get too carried away with the usual drumbeat of “the ball movement was great without Melo in the game”. The Cavs are an awful defensive team, which is why Novak had so many open looks. Against the Bulls and the Pacers, for instance, ball movement is not going to be a panacea. Not saying it should be all iso-Melo, but whipping the ball around the perimeter will not result in wide open 3′s like it did against the helpless Cavs.

    5. Frank

      I’m very happy for Amare – I was down on him when he was throwing MDA under the bus about never being taught defense (semi-deservedly or not) but he has come back stronger than I think any of us (except maybe Ruru) expected –

      It’s interesting to look how he’s changed his game – specifically where he gets his offense. I think as his knees got less healthy (and after leaving Nash), he became much more of a jumpshooter — but that’s all changed this year. If you look at the last 4 seasons, here are the #s on percentages of total shots at each location:

      At rim — 3-9 — 10-15 — 16-23 — 3s

      PHX 2010: 44% — 21% — 9% — 25% — 1%
      NYK 2011: 33% — 25% — 12%– 29% — 2%
      NYK 2012: 41% — 16% — 9% — 32% — 3%
      NYK 2013: 59% — 23% — 5% — 13% — 0

      (excuse the fact that these don’t add up to exactly 100% – some rounding going on)

      The difference this year is striking – he basically has cut his mid-range 10-23ft attempts by ~60% or so, and has dumped all those shots into attempts in the paint. The result – 64.5% TS on a usage of 22.7, and within spitting distance of the best offensive year of his career. It’s almost as if someone was shown shot charts, was told about analytics, etc. But of course the Knicks would never do that, right?

    6. Nick C.

      Come to think of it I don’t think I can recall more than a handful of times where he has gotten the ball out by the FT line. The left corner was where he often got it in the past with the Knicks and frequently led to TOs when he tried to make a move. Nice when reported work over the summer correlates to quantifiable positive results.

    7. lavor postell

      Nick C.:
      Come to think of it I don’t think I can recall more than a handful of times where he has gotten the ball out by the FT line. The left corner was where he often got it in the past with the Knicks and frequently led to TOs when he tried to make a move. Nice when reported work over the summer correlates to quantifiable positive results.

      The scary thing is that he is just scratching the surface of his potential post up game. I’d expect him to add 3-4 moves/counters to his repertoire this summer and improve his ability to establish position lower on the block more consistently.

      The most pleasant development in his game is how much more aware he has been of his teammates when he makes move to the hoop. His game off the bounce looks much more fluid than it has previously and to the naked eye it seems that he is committing fewer turnovers and taking care of the ball better.

      Defensively we obviously know that STAT has some major issues, but the effort is certainly there. He has also demonstrated the ability to hedge hard on the ball handler in the pick and roll and not allowing him an easy pass to the roller. In fact this is something I wish the Knicks would do more often with their big men rather than the constant switching.

    8. Kurt

      http://hoopchalk.com/2013/03/04/motion-screening-create-elbow-options-for-amare/

      Great piece on usage of screens for STAT with Tyson in and Melo out. Someone previously seemed surprised that STAT didn’t hog with Melo out. But, with the exception of before the Melo trade, and times last season because of lack of point guards, that’s not his game. Amar’e seems to know that his game functions best within the context of good ball movement.

      I really think that knowing how and when to cut is a skill that Amar’e has over just about any player other than LeBron.

      I also hope that Woodson noticed that the Melo/STAT pick and roll was his best play against the Heat on Sunday.

    9. cgreene

      lavor postell: The scary thing is that he is just scratching the surface of his potential post up game.I’d expect him to add 3-4 moves/counters to his repertoire this summer and improve his ability to establish position lower on the block more consistently.

      The most pleasant development in his game is how much more aware he has been of his teammates when he makes move to the hoop.His game off the bounce looks much more fluid than it has previously and to the naked eye it seems that he is committing fewer turnovers and taking care of the ball better.

      Defensively we obviously know that STAT has some major issues, but the effort is certainly there.He has also demonstrated the ability to hedge hard on the ball handler in the pick and roll and not allowing him an easy pass to the roller.In fact this is something I wish the Knicks would do more often with their big men rather than the constant switching.

      Agree w all this. Especially the part about the hard hedges by big men. For teams with mediocre rotations like the Knicks it makes it much easier to get back if you force the ball handler away from the basket on the hedge. Usually this leads to a longer pass which gives rotators time to rotate.

    10. ruruland

      There are very few defenders Amar’e needs to use more than his reverse pivot power spin against given the usage and minutes he’s getting now.

      Dwight in his heyday never got himself underneath the rim as consistently as Amar’e does, certainly not with two moves.

      Point of fact: Neither Andrew Bynum nor Dwight Howard have averaged more than .9 ppp on post-ups dating back to 2009.

      This year, Amar’e is averaging .99 on post-ups (representing 35% of his plays).

      He is the premier post-up player in the NBA right now (and perhaps the last four years at the very least when we compare him to high usage post players), which, to me, fundamentally improves his value over even his best post-micro surgery seasons.

      If he’s given more minutes and more touches, even if his efficiency goes down to .620, .630, you’re still talking about a top 10 (at least) offensive player.

      This time, he doesn’t need Steve Nash. Heck, he doesn’t need a point guard. He doesn’t need an uptempo system and quite frankly, given his he quickly he gets to the rim, he doesn’t need spacing like he did in Phoenix (or some thought he needed).

      Better yet, the more involved in the offense, the more comfortable he’ll get passing out of traffic, helping his teammates.

      Amar’e post-game (could) totally change the dynamics of the East.

      But he needs to be the focal point of the offense a lot more, given more minutes.

      There is no excuse for any Knicks ball-handler to try to create for himself with more than 10 seconds on the clock if Amar’e is on the floor.

      Secondly, and a difference from Melo, Amar’e is a bigger and much longer target when teams front him, and he’s so adept at finishing on the move against just one big.

      He’s much more difficult to front than Melo.

      If Amar’e can hold up with more touches and more minutes — if the Knicks ever make that the priority — it’s a really big deal.

    11. ruruland

      Kurt:
      http://hoopchalk.com/2013/03/04/motion-screening-create-elbow-options-for-amare/

      Great piece on usage of screens for STAT with Tyson in and Melo out. Someone previously seemed surprised that STAT didn’t hog with Melo out. But, with the exception of before the Melo trade, and times last season because of lack of point guards, that’s not his game. Amar’e seems to know that his game functions best within the context of good ball movement.

      I really think that knowing how and when to cut is a skill that Amar’e has over just about any player other than LeBron.

      I also hope that Woodson noticed that the Melo/STAT pick and roll was his best play against the Heat on Sunday.

      Those elbow touches where Amar’e catches on the move is something I tried to emphasize before he came back in showing how he would be utilized in the high pick and roll (though Woodson is trying make him the primary on some of these designed plays).

      That on the move elbow catch has been one of Amar’e sweet spots dating back to Phoenix (when he was often used on the weakside of high screen and roll).

    12. d-mar

      I like the back to the basket post-ups SO much more than the facing the basket dribble drives, which often resulted in awkward charges or strips. I don’t care if Amare never takes another jump shot this season, his spin moves down low with his back to the basket have become almost unstoppable.

    13. Douglas

      Kurt:
      http://hoopchalk.com/2013/03/04/motion-screening-create-elbow-options-for-amare/

      Great piece on usage of screens for STAT with Tyson in and Melo out. Someone previously seemed surprised that STAT didn’t hog with Melo out. But, with the exception of before the Melo trade, and times last season because of lack of point guards, that’s not his game. Amar’e seems to know that his game functions best within the context of good ball movement.

      I really think that knowing how and when to cut is a skill that Amar’e has over just about any player other than LeBron.

      I also hope that Woodson noticed that the Melo/STAT pick and roll was his best play against the Heat on Sunday.

      I love that dueling pin-down screen play. It’s a glorious rainbow of basketball motion. Amare’s double rainbow all the way!!

    14. danvt

      Frank:
      Looking at Indy’s schedule I think it’ll be pretty tough for us to beat them out for the 2nd seed. 3rd seed is not so bad.

      The problem is that this is year three of the grand rebuild. Your expectations are such that you’re satisfied with maxing out this roster as a third seed in a weak conference.

      My point is, 50 wins is enough to keep the TV on, but it’s not “not so bad”. Ultimately, it’s terrible.

    15. danvt

      ruruland: Point of fact: Neither Andrew Bynum nor Dwight Howard have averaged more than .9 ppp on post-ups dating back to 2009.
      This year, Amar’e is averaging .99 on post-ups (representing 35% of his plays).

      See, now this post gives me some reason that we may improve to the point of believing the early season hype. If we increase his usage, if we figure out how to defend with him on the floor (aka hide him) then maybe we can beat IND or MIA.

    16. Frank

      danvt: The problem is that this is year three of the grand rebuild. Your expectations are such that you’re satisfied with maxing out this roster as a third seed in a weak conference.

      Yes it’s the 3rd chronological year since Melo came, but this really is the 1st year that we’ve had actual designs on being a contender. We obviously were not contenders last year with the PGs we were trotting out there, plus Amare was hurt, it was a weird lockout year, etc. I think our window is open now probably through the 13-14 season, and depending on how well Amare/Tyson age, maybe even into the 14-15 season. Pretty much every player on this team minus the super old guys will be in their prime or at the end of it by then, and guys like Shump should hopefully continue to improve. We also have a mini-MLE and a 1st round pick this summer.

    17. Frank

      btw re: the win last night against Cleveland, and how everyone here is saying Cleveland sucks and it shouldn’t have been that close– this from Zach Lowe today:

      Six weeks ago, Cleveland was 9-31, staring at a half-season without Anderson Varejao, their second-best player, and facing questions about whether they’d fatally blown two straight top-five picks on Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters. They looked like a lock to make a serious run at “earning” the most Ping-Pong balls in the draft lottery.

      Whoops. Cleveland is 11-9 since, with wins in that span over Oklahoma City, Boston, Utah, Milwaukee, and Chicago, and several down-to-the-wire losses against other top teams.

    18. flossy

      ruruland: There is no excuse for any Knicks ball-handler to try to create for himself with more than 10 seconds on the clock if Amar’e is on the floor.

      Can someone please tattoo this backwards on JR Smith’s forehead so that he reads it every time he looks in the mirror?

    19. flossy

      If Amar’e can get up around 30 mpg and is allowed to become more of a focal point of the offense, it will be a huge boon to the Knicks. Melo playing 40 mpg, primarily at the 4, with a usage of 34% is just not sustainable.

      I’ve always been an Amar’e homer but I really do believe he is still a premier talent in this league and has a lot to offer this franchise. Any coach that can’t find a major role for someone who can post a TS% of .645 with a usage above 25 needs to find a new line of work.

      Training with Hakeem (who had his best scoring seasons at the age of 31-32, btw) was a stroke of genius and has definitely extended and expanded Amar’e's relevance as an elite scorer. I also think, just based on observation (though the numbers don’t really bare this out), that it’s easier for him to pass out of doubles when his back is to the basket and he’s seeing the whole floor. His passing against Miami and Cleveland was pretty good.

      Maybe Amar’e needs a few more games like last night to earn Woodson’s trust, but ultimately he has got to get more playing time and probably start. It’s really not that crazy a proposition that Amar’e “6x All-Star” Stoudemire should be starting at PF and James “Why Am I In the NBA?” White should be on the damn bench.

    20. steveoh

      This morning, my iPhone lost all my contacts and my laptop ran out of space on my startup disk.

      Needless to say, it’s been a crappy morning.

      Then I read what ruruland wrote about Amare, and I optimistically agree. And with that, the sun shone for the first time for me today.

      Thanks, ruru.

    21. danvt

      Frank: I think our window is open now probably through the 13-14 season, and depending on how well Amare/Tyson age, maybe even into the 14-15 season. Pretty much every player on this team minus the super old guys will be in their prime or at the end of it by then, and guys like Shump should hopefully continue to improve. We also have a mini-MLE and a 1st round pick this summer.

      Grunwald has been very good. Good enough that we thought we had reached elite status already. I don’t think we will with this core but I hope I’m wrong and, most importantly, I hope they play well enough that, in the future I will think I was wrong when I thought it, even if it’s only a for a short time. If we play the way we’ve been playing I probably won’t be able to lie to myself nearly as much as I’d like to.

    22. klownboy

      Good win for my Knicks last night. Hope that Melo won’t miss any significant time.

    23. Frank

      I think we sit Melo out the next 2-3 games. Then bring him back in limited minutes on monday against GS if he feels better. You know he desperately wants to play against Denver next wednesday.

    24. Frank O.

      Frank:
      Looking at Indy’s schedule I think it’ll be pretty tough for us to beat them out for the 2nd seed. 3rd seed is not so bad.

      Geez. At the start of the season some folks were laughing when some of us saw the Knicks as a possible top four team in the east. Finishing third is damn good, and all bets are off in the playoffs.

    25. Frank O.

      Frank:
      I’m very happy for Amare – I was down on him when he was throwing MDA under the bus about never being taught defense (semi-deservedly or not) but he has come back stronger than I think any of us (except maybe Ruru) expected –

      It’s interesting to look how he’s changed his game – specifically where he gets his offense. I think as his knees got less healthy (and after leaving Nash), he became much more of a jumpshooter — but that’s all changed this year.If you look at the last 4 seasons, here are the #s on percentages of total shots at each location:

      At rim — 3-9 — 10-15 — 16-23 — 3s

      PHX 2010:44% — 21% — 9% — 25% — 1%
      NYK 2011:33% — 25% — 12%– 29% — 2%
      NYK 2012:41% — 16% — 9% — 32% — 3%
      NYK 2013:59% — 23% — 5% — 13% — 0

      (excuse the fact that these don’t add up to exactly 100% – some rounding going on)

      The difference this year is striking – he basically has cut his mid-range 10-23ft attempts by ~60% or so, and has dumped all those shots into attempts in the paint. The result – 64.5% TS on a usage of 22.7, and within spitting distance of the best offensive year of his career.It’s almost as if someone was shown shot charts, was told about analytics, etc.But of course the Knicks would never do that, right?

      Too have argued long and hard that Amare likely would become a beast and get to TS% levels that would be at or better than his career averages. Just saying…

    26. ruruland

      flossy:
      If Amar’e can get up around 30 mpg and is allowed to become more of a focal point of the offense, it will be a huge boon to the Knicks.Melo playing 40 mpg, primarily at the 4, with a usage of 34% is just not sustainable.

      I’ve always been an Amar’e homer but I really do believe he is still a premier talent in this league and has a lot to offer this franchise.Any coach that can’t find a major role for someone who can post a TS% of .645 with a usage above 25 needs to find a new line of work.

      Training with Hakeem (who had his best scoring seasons at the age of 31-32, btw) was a stroke of genius and has definitely extended and expanded Amar’e’s relevance as an elite scorer.I also think, just based on observation (though the numbers don’t really bare this out), that it’s easier for him to pass out of doubles when his back is to the basket and he’s seeing the whole floor.His passing against Miami and Cleveland was pretty good.

      I personally think Martin should start and that Amar’e should get 32-34 minutes.

      Martin/Chandler would be the most mobile interior duo in the league, and I think how a team starts a game on defense has a residual effect on the opposing offense (energy and decision making. The better the defense is early, the more likely the offense is stagnant over the course of the game). Also, Martin and Chandler would both, imo, feed off each other’s inherent aggressiveness in trapping and disrupting ballahndlers and pnr.

      But that means Amar’e finishes the game. The lineup with he, Chandler, Shump, Smith and Felton looked great last night.

      It would be a lot better if Melo replaced Smith (Smith needs to be a 25-30 minute guy who plays off the ball where he’s thrived in the past, instead of being asked to create at the end of games where he is awful over multiple possessions).

    27. ruruland

      Frank O.: Too have argued long and hard that Amare likely would become a beast and get to TS% levels that would be at or better than his career averages.Just saying…

      I don’t think anyone thought he would be quite this good in the post, but it was evident early he was having an amazing off-season and that the post game would be a game changer.

      The shot distribution change a few people foresaw, and that’s been the second biggest factor (assisted baskets, more penetration equaling high percentage of uncontested sh
      ots inside)

    28. Frank O.

      Ruru is so right about Amare. It has become more and more evident that he has become one of the most dominant post scorers around. The combination of power, size and speed make him a nightmare.
      His almost shocking development of the ability to pass out of the paint in recent games has been utterly arresting.
      With him on the floor with 3 pt shooters, it is very tough to double him when he can find open shooters. And if he is on the floor with Melo, the problems for the defense become immense.
      Melo has done a great job finding Amare on his penetrations, and Amare has even found Chandler
      Woodson needs to stop the charade of starting a place holder. Time for Amare to take is best position and Melo shift to the 3. Time to realize the potential of the big three.
      There are plenty of minutes for back up bigs, for Melo to get some time at the 4. Amare has always been the wild card. If there was any good out of Melo’s injury it was thAt it served notice to Woodson that he cannot limit that man to 25 minutes. He will need to use him 30 minutes at least.

    29. Frank O.

      d-mar: ©

      But it is his jumper that also makes him so tough on the block.
      He’s even mastered a little fall away.

    30. Frank

      ruruland: I personally think Martin should start and that Amar’e should get 32-34 minutes.

      I haven’t seen much of K-Mart the last few years – I assume he’s just getting into shape and learning the sets, and that’s why he has barely played? But yeah, if he resembles the defender he was, he’s a no-brainer to put in there if Woody still insists on bringing STAT and JR off the bench.

      Meanwhile – twitter is abuzz about Woodson admitting on the radio today that Melo asked out of the game because his knee was bothering him before the actual fall.

    31. Frank O.

      Frank: I haven’t seen much of K-Mart the last few years – I assume he’s just getting into shape and learning the sets, and that’s why he has barely played? But yeah, if he resembles the defender he was, he’s a no-brainer to put in there if Woody still insists on bringing STAT and JR off the bench.

      Meanwhile – twitter is abuzz about Woodson admitting on the radio today that Melo asked out of the game because his knee was bothering him before the actual fall.

      Wow. So either the leg gave out…or he took a dive?

    32. ruruland

      Frank O.: Wow. So either the leg gave out…or he took a dive?

      Yes, the knee has been bothering him for awhile and really flared up before the game. In fact, on his layup preceding the injury, he can be seen grimacing.

      It must be related to the knee strains he suffered against the Lakers.

    33. ruruland

      Frank: I haven’t seen much of K-Mart the last few years – I assume he’s just getting into shape and learning the sets, and that’s why he has barely played? But yeah, if he resembles the defender he was, he’s a no-brainer to put in there if Woody still insists on bringing STAT and JR off the bench.

      Meanwhile – twitter is abuzz about Woodson admitting on the radio today that Melo asked out of the game because his knee was bothering him before the actual fall.

      I can give you my Synergy subscription and you can watch his 4th quarter defense against Memphis’ bigs in the playoffs.

      Martin was getting minutes over Blake freaking Griffin in the playoffs, he can be that kind of an impact defender (especially when physicality is allowed.)

      He’s also always been a big game player. 11/10/2 blocks with stellar defense in 24 minutes in game 7 against Memphis last year, where he defended Conley, Gay, Randolph and Gasol quite well.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201205130MEM.html

    34. danvt

      Frank O.: Geez. At the start of the season some folks were laughing when some of us saw the Knicks as a possible top four team in the east. Finishing third is damn good, and all bets are off in the playoffs.

      It’s only good if you feel you have at least a punchers chance at the whole prize. Or if you feel that, with one more attainable piece, you get closer next year.

    35. jon abbey

      I seem to be unbanned for now, but I doubt it will last long. nice knowing and interacting with you all, more than a couple of other places to talk hoops with me on the web if you like.

    36. Frank

      jon abbey:
      I seem to be unbanned for now, but I doubt it will last long. nice knowing and interacting with you all, more than a couple of other places to talk hoops with me on the web if you like.

      you’ve been banned?
      for what?

    37. jon abbey

      ask the drive-by moderators who don’t participate in the threads and then wish you into the cornfield if you say bad things about their recaps.

    38. Jim Cavan

      jon abbey: abbey

      For the record, Jon Abbey was never banned. His comments were deleted because he was being an insufferable troll, who refused — even through email — to have a constructive conversation not just about WHY he feels the content here is awful, but in what specific ways.

      Knickerblogger is a vibrant, sometimes tense, usually very smart community. If you’re here for the comments section and nothing else, that’s perfectly OK. If you hate our recaps, that’s fine, too — skip over them. But if personal attacks aren’t allowed between commenters (a phenomenon which we’re not always the best at monitoring, we know), then they won’t be tolerated with regards to our writers, either. Writers who bust their ass on these recaps.

      If anyone has any issues with how we run things here, feel free to hit me up on Twitter. I’ll even give you my email address. In the mean time, be kind to one another. I’ve broken this rule a few times myself, and promise not to do so on this forum going forward.

      As you were.

    39. jon abbey

      and again, calling someone’s work terrible is not a personal attack, no matter how much they’ve allegedly worked on it. commenters “bust their ass” on their comments just as much as writers do on the recaps, but it doesn’t stop the semi-random moderation you just admitted to. at least you deign to interact with us plebes occasionally, and for that we are very grateful.

    40. jon abbey

      also, I had a very specific suggestion when asked by e-mail: stop the recaps totally. they’re not going to get better, and we don’t need them. there were none for the previous two games before last night, and the site functioned exactly the same.

    41. Kurt

      In theory I agree with you. My one hesitation is that Melo hasn’t been shooting the three ball as well recently. I think having all of the big three in at once is most effective when Melo is hitting the three ball. When he is, you can run variations on the play I linked to above. Otherwise, the “horns” offense (with the two bigs starting at the two elbows and the wings at the corners) can be devastating. But if Melo isn’t as dangerous from 3 the court can get a little to crowded.

    42. Jim Cavan

      jon abbey: at least you deign to interact with us plebes occasionally, and for that we are very grateful.

      Dude, I have, like, three jobs. I truly miss being able to be on here all the time (well, sometimes….), but it’s just not possible with some of our work schedules. It’s honestly nothing personal.

    43. flossy

      I like the recaps. If you don’t like the recaps, it’s pretty easy to simply not read them, or skip straight to the comments, which are usually about the game and not about the recap itself. There’s a difference between critiquing and just complaining. A little of the former is often appreciated. Too much of the latter just makes you an asshole.

    44. Frank

      jon abbey: also, I had a very specific suggestion when asked by e-mail: stop the recaps totally. they’re not going to get better, and we don’t need them. there were none for the previous two games before last night, and the site functioned exactly the same.

      not to take sides in this whole thing, but overall I like the recaps. Some are better than others, some are funnier than others, some are more focused than others, some are probably a little self-indulgent — but honestly, these guys are writing at warp speed in the middle of the night for our enjoyment. I can hardly blame them if in a coffee-adderall-fueled delirium they wander off into some strange stuff. not sure about the financials of knickerblogger, but my guess is they are not getting paid big bucks to do this.

      i guess writers whose ambitions may be to move onto bigger and better things in the sportswriting world (like the NYTimes – congrats guys!) have to start somewhere, and constructive criticism probably helps. we can think of providing it as the price of admission to this free website, which has completely changed the way I think about basketball, and has brought me a lot of enjoyment in my new life of changing diapers and negotiating with children about Super Why consumption.

      anyway, not to get involved in it, just my 2c on the recaps.

    45. Robert Silverman

      jon abbey:
      and again, calling someone’s work terrible is not a personal attack, no matter how much they’ve allegedly worked on it. commenters “bust their ass” on their comments just as much as writers do on the recaps, but it doesn’t stop the semi-random moderation you just admitted to. at least you deign to interact with us plebes occasionally, and for that we are very grateful.

      You’re right, Jon. Saying someone’s work is “like a series of painful paper cuts” (as you did in the NY-GS recap) should in no way be viewed as a personal attack. It’s just constructive criticism meant to elevate the dialogue here.

      As is your above use of “how much they’ve allegedly worked on it.” Now we’re having a conversation about our conversations, which is CLEARLY the best use of this forum and profoundly interesting to all.

      If someone wants to write after my recap (or anyone else’s) a comment/critique that adds to what we do here (“The jokes are getting to be a bit much, watch the run on sentences, etc.” — all fair responses) I will listen and take them with all do consideration.

      If anyone has any questions or issues or doesn’t get the difference, you can hit me up on twitter @bobsaietta and, like Jim, I’ll even give my email address as well.

      Now, can we go back to basketball?

    46. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Bob and Jim are so good at basketball writing it makes me seeth with envy.e

      Don’t change, fellas — especially not to pander to jon “if you pay me I’ll make constructive comments about basketball statistics” abbey.

      P.S. The Knicks are on-pace to win 51.8 games this season. My preseason prediction was 52 wins. If my prediction is fulfilled, will ruruland’s head explode?

    47. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: P.S. The Knicks are on-pace to win 51.8 games this season. My preseason prediction was 52 wins. If my prediction is fulfilled, will ruruland’s head explode?

      c’mon dude- your 52 wins was based on huge contributions from Kidd, Ronnie Brewer, and Marcus Camby. Kidd has been excellent and horrible all at once, and Brewer/Camby have basically been nonentities. Why you’re right is just as (and probably more) important as if you’re right.

      So while I can’t speak for ruruland, my guess is that no, his head will not explode unless you continue to take credit for a broken clock being right twice a day.

      Robert Silverman: Now, can we go back to basketball?

      back to normal, right Robert!??!

    48. danvt

      I love Robert and Jim’s recaps.

      I also don’t see what’s wrong with most of Jon Abbey’s posts. Meanwhile, if a post is out of line it should get taken down. That’s what makes this place different from espnny, etc. I have almost never seen anything that really is trolling on this site, comparatively, and I think we have the moderators to thank for that.

      Thanks guys, but don’t ban Jon Abbey forever.

    49. Frank O.

      I find the recaps and comments here amusingly idiosyncratic.
      Some folks are ridiculously talented, others more self-conscious. Some commenters are like the old aunt whose musings have a way of calming a room, while others are like the uncle who says incredibly insensitive things that blow up parties and wonders aloud why everyone is so upset.
      We are bitchy, crazy, partisan and sometimes kind and also damned mean.
      How like life.
      I’ve been reading for possibly five years now, I’m not sure. I’ve been very active and then lurked for long periods of silence, preferring to just read folks that are more passionate and informed about the Knicks and the NBA writ large.
      Interesting that this site started with people forever justifying the need for the application of advanced stats. Then it was who was better at it.
      Now it seems more commonplace. I think this site played no small role in elevating the issue among average folks like myself.
      Like the other Frank, it has changed the way I watch games.

    50. maxwell_3g

      Frank O.:
      Ruru is so right about Amare. It has become more and more evident that he has become one of the most dominant post scorers around. The combination of power, size and speed make him a nightmare.
      His almost shocking development of the ability to pass out of the paint in recent games has been utterly arresting.
      With him on the floor with 3 pt shooters, it is very tough to double him when he can find open shooters. And if he is on the floor with Melo, the problems for the defense become immense.
      Melo has done a great job finding Amare on his penetrations, and Amare has even found Chandler
      Woodson needs to stop the charade of starting a place holder. Time for Amare to take is best position and Melo shift to the 3. Time to realize the potential of the big three.
      There are plenty of minutes for back up bigs, for Melo to get some time at the 4. Amare has always been the wild card. If there was any good out of Melo’s injury it was thAt it served notice to Woodson that he cannot limit that man to 25 minutes. He will need to use him 30 minutes at least.

      man. at least the Knicks cheerleaders have found time to log on today. I am a knicks fan as much as anyone on here and Im rooting for them. But in the interest of honest and balanced discussion, the fans of all of the other teams in the NBA would find this quote, “It has become more and more evident that he has become one of the most dominant post scorers around. The combination of power, size and speed make him a nightmare) hilarious. lets not get carried away guys. hes an efficient scorer and with awful defense and rebounding. there is still not another contract in the league that we could trade him for

    51. maxwell_3g

      ruruland: I can give you my Synergy subscription and you can watch his 4th quarter defense against Memphis’ bigs in the playoffs.

      Martin was getting minutes over Blake freaking Griffin in the playoffs, he can be that kind of an impact defender (especially when physicality is allowed.)

      He’s also always been a big game player. 11/10/2 blocks with stellar defense in 24 minutes in game 7 against Memphis last year, where he defended Conley, Gay, Randolph and Gasol quite well.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201205130MEM.html

      he was that crucial to the clippers in the playoffs that they didnt want to offer him a contract. hmmmmm. i really need to find my pom poms

    52. Kurt

      Robert Silverman: big fan of your recaps, please don’t change! Too bad Balkman and Sheed aren’t playing. Your “victory blunt” line was priceless!

    53. johnlocke

      Love the recaps, especially if I miss the game. I also like how sometimes the posts of others in the in-game thread are summarized in the recap — more of that would be awesome. On another note, I was on vacation without access to the Knicks for the Heat game and forgot to DVR it. Is there anywhere online you can watch replays of Knicks games?

    54. Kikuchiyo

      Maybe I’m in the minority, but I love the recaps and have lost interest in the comments, which sometimes seem dominated by a few voices rehashing the same two or three arguments. The recaps aren’t aggressively trying to win an argument, and I find the wit and wordplay a delight.

      Some of the comments are fantastic, of course. I still love the site.

    55. thenamestsam

      maxwell_3g: man.at least the Knicks cheerleaders have found time to log on today.I am a knicks fan as much as anyone on here and Im rooting for them.But in the interest of honest and balanced discussion, the fans of all of the other teams in the NBA would find this quote, “It has become more and more evident that he has become one of the most dominant post scorers around. The combination of power, size and speed make him a nightmare) hilarious.lets not get carried away guys.hes an efficient scorer and with awful defense and rebounding.there is still not another contract in the league that we could trade him for

      Agreed that the optimistic crowd are getting a little ahead of themselves with the Amare love. Yes, he has been a beast so far, but if you’re looking at 600 minutes and concluding that this is basically his new level now that he has a post game I think you’re getting a little ahead of yourself. Lets not forget all the ridiculous shooting numbers that various Knicks players were putting up after THEIR first 25 games of this year, only to see a big time regression.

      On top of that, for all the obsession that some people on here have with the issues of facing 2nd string defenders, not being the primary focus of opposing defenses, etc. when it applies to a player whose stats they’re trying to discredit (like James Harden last year for example), I don’t hear the same caveats applied to Amare quite as vigorously. Right now he’s facing 2nd team defenses for the most part, he’s frequently not the primary focus of the offense, and other teams haven’t had an opportunity to scout his new post game and game plan for it. It’s just too early to be concluding that he’s been completely revived as a dominant post scorer in my opinion.

    56. Owen

      I like the recaps also.

      And yeah, I don’t really agree that Amare is suddenly a star again. I would trade him in an instant. The guy can’t defend, rebound, pass, or really do anything other than score on the court. And he is old and injury prone.

      It’s been amazing to watch this resurgence. But I really have my doubts about how long it will continue.

    57. thenamestsam

      Oh, and as long as everyone is chiming in on the recap issue I’ll say that I generally enjoy them but find the Player Grade format pointless. The further they stray from that format the more I generally enjoy them. To me the individual player grade is an EXTREMELY overly reductive way of looking at a basketball game, and too often boils down to “Player A shot well and played decent defense. Player B shot poorly etc.” Not interesting or informative to me. On top of that the parts of the writing that feel most forced to me are generally in these sections, and understandably so, as there just isn’t always something to say about Steve Novak’s performance. Generally the stuff that I really appreciate is found in the numbered points below where the writer expands more on the central themes of the game or whatever strikes their fancy. If I had my druthers the recaps wouldn’t be so constrained to that format (might still make sense to grade the 3 or 4 central characters in any given game) and would give the writers more leeway to take it whatever direction they see fit.

      Just my $.02 and obviously you guys should keep doing it however you want. It’s your site and you do a damn fine job with it.

    58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: c’mon dude- your 52 wins was based on huge contributions from Kidd, Ronnie Brewer, and Marcus Camby. Kidd has been excellent and horrible all at once, and Brewer/Camby have basically been nonentities. Why you’re right is just as (and probably more) important as if you’re right.
      So while I can’t speak for ruruland, my guess is that no, his head will not explode unless you continue to take credit for a broken clock being right twice a day.

      Haha, as expected. I was right last year and I’ll probably be right again this year.

    59. DRed

      Frank: c’mon dude- your 52 wins was based on huge contributions from Kidd, Ronnie Brewer, and Marcus Camby.Kidd has been excellent and horrible all at once, and Brewer/Camby have basically been nonentities.Why you’re right is just as (and probably more) important as if you’re right.

      So while I can’t speak for ruruland, my guess is that no, his head will not explode unless you continue to take credit for a broken clock being right twice a day.

      back to normal, right Robert!??!

      The funny thing is that ruru and the jowled cock essentially picked the Knicks to win the same number of games.

    60. flossy

      Owen:
      The guy can’t defend, rebound, pass, or really do anything other than score on the court. And he is old and injury prone.

      It’s been amazing to watch this resurgence. But I really have my doubts about how long it will continue.

      All he does is score… With a better usage/efficiency combination than anyone in the league not named Kevin Durant. Just think of what he could do if he were actually featured in the offense.

    61. DRed

      flossy: All he does is score… With a better usage/efficiency combination than anyone in the league not named Kevin Durant.Just think of what he could do if he were actually featured in the offense.

      Amar’e can rebound, at least a little bit. He’s average or slightly above average on the offense glass and fairly poor on the defensive glass, but it’s not really fair to say he can’t rebound. What he can’t do it play team defense.

    62. Donnie Walsh

      flossy: All he does is score… With a better usage/efficiency combination than anyone in the league not named Kevin Durant.Just think of what he could do if he were actually featured in the offense.

      Sounds like Amar’e is some kid trying to play his way into the rotation. (Wasn’t the EXACT same thing posted here back during the “Free Mike Sweetney” era?).

    63. nicos

      Amar’e points per possession 1.11 with a usage 25.2. James Harden last year 1.11 ppp with a usage of 21.6 (this year 1.04 28.8 usage). I have no problem with being skeptical that Amar’e will keep this up but acting like he’s been anything other than a monster on the offensive end is a bit disingenuous. And the Knicks’ rebounding has certainly improved since he returned to the lineup (and as Frank has pointed out the lineups with he and Tyson together have been dominating on the glass) so while he’s not a great rebounder he’s not Steve Novak either. He’s a shitty defensive 5 (especially when paired with weak interior 4′s like Novak or Melo) but he’s been adequate this year at the 4 and lately he’s been making at least one pretty good defensive play for every bad one so at least there’s progress at that end. He’s also passed pretty well out of double teams in the post. Is he is worth 20 million? Nope, but if you’re ignoring salary is he a guy you should be really happy is on your team (at least so far this season)? Hell yes.

    64. thenamestsam

      nicos:
      Amar’e points per possession 1.11 with a usage 25.2.James Harden last year 1.11 ppp with a usage of 21.6 (this year 1.04 28.8 usage).I have no problem with being skeptical that Amar’e will keep this up but acting like he’s been anything other than a monster on the offensive end is a bit disingenuous.

      If this was addressed to me (which the Harden comparison suggests) then I certainly didn’t say that Amare has been anything less than a monster on the offensive end so far (although I chose the word beast instead). And I haven’t seen anyone else say anything like that either. It’s not a question of what he has done so far, but of whether this represents a new level of play for him or is merely a hot streak, or something in between.

      As far as Harden, my only point was that some posters (Ruru specifically) were constantly harping on the fact that Harden’s efficiency numbers last year were inflated due to the fact that he rarely went against the other teams best wing defender, and that defenses were rarely focused on him as the primary threat. Yet for some reason I’m not hearing quite as much about these factors when they apply to Amare. Instead he’s being proclaimed “the premier post-up player in the NBA” based on his efficiency numbers without ay discussion of the fact that he is rarely being checked by the other team’s best interior defender, and that defenses are rarely focused on him as the primary threat. I was just pointing out a bit of hypocrisy that I’m seeing.

    65. nicos

      And I’ll add that if he does keep up this efficiency at 30+ minutes a night and stays relatively healthy then he probably would be worth a max contract- he’d be the best interior scorer in the league (unless you consider LBJ an interior player) by a fairly wide margin. When he was healthy last year he put up a .600 TS% in the second half without the post game so I don’t think it’s crazy to think he could get back to where he was at 27 in Phoenix- .617 TS% at a usage of 27.2 playing 34 minutes a night. His health is touch and go so things could change at any time but when healthy he’s been a top 5 inside scorer since the age of 22 and his improvement in the post at least gives some hope that he can keep that up as he gets into his 30′s.

    66. nicos

      thenamestsam: If this was addressed to me (which the Harden comparison suggests) then I certainly didn’t say that Amare has been anything less than a monster on the offensive end so far (although I chose the word beast instead). And I haven’t seen anyone else say anything like that either. It’s not a question of what he has done so far, but of whether this represents a new level of play for him or is merely a hot streak, or something in between.

      As far as Harden, my only point was that some posters (Ruru specifically) were constantly harping on the fact that Harden’s efficiency numbers last year were inflated due to the fact that he rarely went against the other teams best wing defender, and that defenses were rarely focused on him as the primary threat. Yet for some reason I’m not hearing quite as much about these factors when they apply to Amare. Instead he’s being proclaimed “the premier post-up player in the NBA” based on his efficiency numbers without ay discussion of the fact that he is rarely being checked by the other team’s best interior defender, and that defenses are rarely focused on him as the primary threat. I was just pointing out a bit of hypocrisy that I’m seeing.

      Sorry, I wasn’t really directing it at you- I’m just pointing out that the hypocrisy is working both ways- if Amar’e was a guy WS has historically liked then no doubt the Berri-ites on the site would be crowing about his efficiency (see THCJ’s multiple posts about how valuable Chandler is on offense despite his low usage and I remember either he or Owen saying that even if Harden was the worst defensive player in the league he’d still be really valuable based on his scoring efficiency). Again, I’m fine with skepticism as to whether it’ll last- though again, when healthy he’s been a great, great scorer his whole career so it shouldn’t be such a surprise he’s playing…

    67. danvt

      danvt: I don’t feel like a Cubs fan. I’m jealous of Cubs fans! The Cubs have a better chance of winning a World Series then NYK has of winning it all in the next decade.

      I posted this at #2. I’m surprised no one shot me down. Do people agree with this?

    68. thenamestsam

      nicos: Sorry, I wasn’t really directing it at you- I’m just pointing out that the hypocrisy is working both ways- if Amar’e was a guy WS has historically liked then no doubt the Berri-ites on the site would be crowing about his efficiency (see THCJ’s multiple posts about how valuable Chandler is on offense despite his low usage and I remember either he or Owen saying that even if Harden was the worst defensive player in the league he’d still be really valuable based on his scoring efficiency).Again, I’m fine with skepticism as to whether it’ll last- though again, when healthy he’s been a great, great scorer his whole career so it shouldn’t be such a surprise he’s playing…

      Ah, okay, I got you. You’re definitely right that the hypocrisy flows both ways.

    69. flossy

      Donnie Walsh: Sounds like Amar’e is some kid trying to play his way into the rotation. (Wasn’t the EXACT same thing posted here back during the “Free Mike Sweetney” era?).

      I wasnt here for that era, but do you actually think Amar’e Stoudemire is in any way comparable to Mike Sweetney? Why would you even say that? i mean are we talking about a 6x all star, repeat all NBA selection or what? He’s posting dominant scoring numbers in an offense not really geared toward getting him a lot of shots. If he can at least stay healthy and increase his minutes while staying on this trajectory, that’s star quality production in this league period

    70. Owen

      “As far as Harden, my only point was that some posters (Ruru specifically) were constantly harping on the fact that Harden’s efficiency numbers last year were inflated due to the fact that he rarely went against the other teams best wing defender, and that defenses were rarely focused on him as the primary threat. Yet for some reason I’m not hearing quite as much about these factors when they apply to Amare. ”

      It’s a good point. Look, I think he can still score, though probably not at this level. But there is no reason to believe he can take the strain of being a 36 minute a night anchor. And his one dimensionality is still his defining characteristic.

      It’s really really hard to be a star in the NBA as a one way player. I think that’s what has become increasingly clear to me, as much because of David Lee as Stat and Melo. Steve Nash managed it. Other guys have to, including Amare in his prime. But by and large, it’s really tough…..

    71. maxwell_3g

      I’m just going to throw this out there to change the subject a bit…does anyone else feel that woody is full of it with his explanation of the melo injury. i feel that he is covering for melo big time, the reason i dont know. for woody to be telling the truth, we would have to believe that melo (a star player in today’s NBA) told woodson that he needs to come out because of his knee and woodson blatantly ignored him and kept him in. I dont believe that happened for a second. The only coach that would ever possibly do that would be Pop, and he would do it to Danny Green of someone like that. There is no way in hell that woodson heard melo ask out due to an injured knee, looked melo in the eye, and kept him in. he has never stood up to melo, so why would he choose that time, when melo claimed to be injured, as a first. why has woodson concocted this story? i guess to deflect blame from melo taking himself out due to a self inflicted sore knee and the backlash that it cause with some (especially after lebron stayed in the game a day before. i think woodson really wants to stress that melo has been hurting for some time and has been a “warrior” playing through it. i’m really not trying to bash melo here (though I do feel he took himself out of a game that he could have played through when the team was struggling), im just calling BS on woodson’s explanation

    72. ess-dog

      For the record, I skip over the recaps, and have done so for a while.
      I read and write all damn day and I’m just not up for 3000 words of sardonic thoughts on last nights brutal lost to whomever.

      I also think it’s hard to beat Seth at P&T when it comes to funny, although Cavan has some nice moments.

      Overall I would say: Cut these in half (at least) and since you have to give grades (thanks, espn), make them short and sweet.

    73. Owen

      I definitely agree with that. Rizzo might actually pan out as a top 5 NL first baseman, possibly this year. Castro is a good young player. The financial resources are basically unlimited. And the management team is pretty strong. I love what they have done with their pitching staff. Tons of live arms. And the farm isnt terrible.

      Their chances of winning a title in the next five years are much higher than the Knicks.

      danvt: I posted this at #2.I’m surprised no one shot me down.Do people agree with this?

    74. Frank O.

      Love people who take contrarian views as a shtick.
      The dude has been a dominant offensive player his entire career, not 600 minutes. As a Knick he has had his ups and downs with injuries. But when he has been healthy, he’s been very efficient offensively.
      He went away this summer and developed – at 29 – a very effective low post game. Great players work to get better. With Melo on the team, he had to learn more skills. He’s clearly succeeded. He’s still a very reliable mid range shooter, has rediscovered his explosiveness after his knee issue and back issue and as noted in recent games, he’s actually playing pretty sound D. Great? No.
      But his offense is as efficient as the best PFs in the league.
      Anyone that utters Mike Sweeney in the same breath with Amare isn’t credible, with all due respect.
      His TS% is ranked third among PFs in the nba, with only one other player in the top 10 with a usage of 22 or better besides Amare and he is 10th, and his name is Blake Griffin.
      Amare is ranked third in PER among PFs in the NBA, with only Tim Duncan and Blake ahead of him.
      Perfect? No. But he’s a horse.
      And let’s not forget the Knicks were a backwater club with nothing. When he came here, others wanted to come. His run of 30 point games was electric. He’ll never be Tim Duncan or Dirk.
      But keep in mind, no one doubts Karl Malone was great. Yet Amare has a better TS, eFG, more blocks per 36, and comparable rebounds per 36. Extremely similar players.
      And remember, the untradable part is the uninsured part of Amare’s contract; it’s not about his play, IMHO.
      I am a big fan of Amare, but his numbers are terrific so far. It would be stupid not to increase his usage and get Melo’s minutes down to 32 to 35, rather than 41.

    75. ess-dog

      Might I add that it’s somewhat amusing that Amare has gone from “the least tradable contract in the NBA” to the “premier post-up player in the NBA right now” over the span of 2 months on this board.

    76. jon abbey

      ess-dog:
      Might I add that it’s somewhat amusing that Amare has gone from “the least tradable contract in the NBA” to the “premier post-up player in the NBA right now” over the span of 2 months on this board.

      not really, Eddy Curry led the league in points in the paint by a wide margin one of his NY seasons.

      which I think is actually the major question with Amar’e's game currently also, his ability to get it to the open man when doubled.

    77. Donnie Walsh

      flossy: do you actually think Amar’e Stoudemire is in any way comparable to Mike Sweetney?Why would you even say that?i mean are we talking about a 6x all star…

      Yeah, Amar’e is not Mike Sweetney. That wasn’t the point of the comment. Just that is sounds like the kind of stuff people post about end-of-the-bench kids that have shown a lot of promise when given the opportunity to play. (and since Amar’e is like the third youngest player on the team, I guess I understand why he’s given the kid treatment :)

    78. Owen

      The least tradeable thing was from some bleacher report article i think….

      No one is saying he isn’t scoring and scoring very efficiently, just that there is more to being a power forward than doing that…..

      It’s worth noting that his turnover rate has been a perennial sore spot, an area where I think Carmelo actually gets really short thrift. (and yes, turnover statistics are not probably kept as well as they should be)

      Also Re Malone and Stat, you should pace adjust those stats, then normalize them for era, and then consider whether you think they were really comparable. Malone has nine 15 WS seasons to his name. Amare has come close twice. Melo has yet to crack 10.

    79. massive

      You can’t find a power forward more efficient than Amar’e at his usage. If Amar’e gets you 30 minutes a night at his efficiency/usage combination, he’s definitely a top player at his position. I have not seen a player capable of stopping this man one on one all season, and I don’t think I will unless the Bulls have Joakim Noah guard him.

    80. daJudge

      I personally enjoy the recaps very, very much and think most of the writing here is top shelf. The price is right too. Thank you. I do not understand a lot of stat stuff, but I try to. On the other hand, I do not enjoy the rancor, personal attacks and other nonsense. For example, cutting down any kid aspiring to accomplish something good in this world (writing or otherwise) is weak. I would never put up with this stuff in my kitchen, but I guess this is an open site. It seems immature and arrogant. It doesn’t illuminate and instead often obscures. Maybe I’m old school, but there is a way to propound your argument as a gentleman. That should be the rule IMO. After all, we really know nothing about each other. Keep up the good work.

    81. Unreason

      If KMart is as mobile as Ruru suspects, would it make sense to play him with Amare and Chandler? Does Amare’s quickness, man D, and shot blocking make him better suited to that than to interior D? I don’t suspect he’d suddenly flourish in that context or anything, but he just seems unlikely to get any better at guarding 4′s and 5′s or interior team D in general. Maximizing the value of his stellar new post game would seem to require finding some way to make him less of a liability on the other end.

      Neither Novak nor Copeland have much value, IMO, except against units with very offensively challenged 3′s. I think JR and Shump are 2s and going forward have the best chance of keeping the Knicks back court from getting relentlessly torched.

      An 11-man rotation like this intrigues me:
      1. Felton, Kidd, Prig
      2. Shump, JR, Kidd
      3. Melo, Amare, Novak
      4. KMart, Melo, Amare
      5. Chandler, Camby, Amare

      Amare’s minutes should be protected IMO as should Melo’s. That starting line-up is offensively challenged, but Melo’s 1st quarters speak for themselves on that front.

      If Camby comes back and KMart gets involved, it makes the prospect of a stiffer D all through the game seem feasible.

    82. massive

      I agree that there can be a lot of immaturity and arrogance when it comes to disagreements on this site. I doubt it will ever stop, but the site is exponentially better without the insults.

    83. er

      massive:
      I agree that there can be a lot of immaturity and arrogance when it comes to disagreements on this site. I doubt it will ever stop, but the site is exponentially better without the insults.

      i tried to say that to someone on this site and got called a “lackey” for it

    84. nyklyt12

      As a newbie to this site i have to say i love everything about it. The good recaps, bad recaps, even the ones i dont understand, whether from culture differences or age. The conversations that take place here are far more intelligent than any “blog” i have seen. That being said i think jon abbey’s input to these conversations is one that we all look forward to, even if his recap commentary is not welcome by some of the writers. My opinion is if you don’t like something ignore it, just like you would with any of the trollers who sometimes come through here.

    85. mcliff05

      Love the recaps, but don’t get too sensitive about someone’s opinions. As long as people are commenting and remain engaged, the site benefits. Seriously though, I missed not having recaps the couple games prior to this but I understand you all have day jobs.

    86. Owen

      I think the recaps can sometimes be a little long, and some of that is the format. Personally, I would err on the side of shortening them and putting them out a little faster so the postgame discussion can coalesce around them.

    87. Frank O.

      jon abbey: not really, Eddy Curry led the league in points in the paint by a wide margin one of his NY seasons.

      which I think is actually the major question with Amar’e’s game currently also, his ability to get it to the open man when doubled.

      If last game was any indication, he did that surprisingly well.

    88. Jim Cavan

      Really do appreciate the positive feedback over the last few dozen posts. We have a tendency to get carried away with the word count, it’s true, although I think the nature of the format — when we use it — makes it easier to skip around and focus on the players / bullets you’re interested in. Just my three cents. But mixing up approaches and styles certainly can’t hurt, so we’ll definitely keep that in mind going forward.

      On a side note: We’re poised to bring on a few new writers who will hopefully be able to fill in some of the between-game content gaps. So stay tuned.

      Alright, back to aging.

    89. max fisher-cohen

      Frank: c’mon dude- your 52 wins was based on huge contributions from Kidd, Ronnie Brewer, and Marcus Camby.Kidd has been excellent and horrible all at once, and Brewer/Camby have basically been nonentities.Why you’re right is just as (and probably more) important as if you’re right.

      So while I can’t speak for ruruland, my guess is that no, his head will not explode unless you continue to take credit for a broken clock being right twice a day.

      back to normal, right Robert!??!

      To be fair, this kind of proves his point. With Kidd and Brewer playing well, the Knicks started off 18-5. When Brewer and Kidd’s shooting touches started to fade, the Knicks fell off and they’re now 18-16 since.

      Also if you look at WP (sorta circular logic, but hey), Chandler and Kidd are far and away the best two players on the team, combining to produce 58% of the Knicks’ wins.

      I do think WP overrates low usage guys, especially guards, who are more often left with the burden of creating plays and so their limitations are not as easily hidden, but Kidd has been huge for this team.

    90. Frank O.

      Owen:
      Adjusting for pace and era? He’s actually more productive now at a slower pace, with weaker point guards. And he’s currently one of the best scorers in the nba at his position.
      Maybe we should isolate and adjust MAlone’s stats because he played with a hall of famer his entire career. That aught to take him down a notch.
      Maybe that’s why they don’t adjust for pace when they make hall of fame selections…

    91. Owen

      Um yeah…..

      Amare also played with a pretty good point guard.

      You seriously think Amare compares to Malone?

      Amazing to see Brewer out on the court for the best team in the NBA tonight….

      Frank O.:
      Owen:
      Adjusting for pace and era? He’s actually more productive now at a slower pace, with weaker point guards. And he’s currently one of the best scorers in the nba at his position.
      Maybe we should isolate and adjust MAlone’s stats because he played with a hall of famer his entire career. That aught to take him down a notch.
      Maybe that’s why they don’t adjust for pace when they make hall of fame selections…

    92. nyklyt12

      Ronnie brewer getting some early burn with thunder… Only notable thing so far is his knick-like referee harassment on “missed calls”. I believe this is a bigger issue for the knicks than their defensive regression from the first quarter of the season. I feel like all knicks players believe its ok to get in the refs face during play, kind of a culture entitlement. Definitely one of the bigger flaws of the Woodson era here in NY

    93. ruruland

      maxwell_3g: he was that crucial to the clippers in the playoffs that they didnt want to offer him a contract.hmmmmm.i really need to find my pom poms

      First of all, fuck all of you and your decorum bullshit.

      Second, fuck you, Maxwell, for breathing and fuck you for then proceeding to challenge me on the keyboard.

      “He demands excellence from everyone around him,” Olshey told Yahoo! Sports in November. (Olshey was the Clippers GM last season but since moved on to run the Portland Trail Blazers).

      “He expects coaches to be prepared. He expects his teammates to compete at the same high level that he does,” Olshey continued. “The one thing about Kenyon, if guys are not performing and are not as intense or focused on playing winning basketball, he’s not reluctant to let them know about it. And I think that can be misperceived at times.”

      In a very physical first-round series with the Memphis Grizzlies, Martin played a major role off the bench in the Clippers’ success. He came up big in Game 7 at Memphis, with 11 points, 10 rebounds and 2 blocked shots. He averaged 1.9 blocks per game in the series.

      “We don’t win the Memphis series [without Martin] and we certainly wouldn’t have finished as high as fifth in the Western Conference without Martin,” Olshey said. “His ability to impact the game by guarding multiple positions, switching pick-and-rolls, blocking shots and protecting the rim was an element we really didn’t have and it made us unique. I was thrilled with Kenyon in Los Angeles. He was a good teammate.”

    94. Frank O.

      Owen:
      Um yeah…..

      Amare also played with a pretty good point guard.

      You seriously think Amare compares to Malone?

      Amazing to see Brewer out on the court for the best team in the NBA tonight….

      Look, Amare has not played as long as Malone yet. But Malone played his ENTIRE career with one of the greatest PGs the game has seen. Using your logic, we should isolate that, some how develop a model to determine the average composite guard of that era, and clearly adjust downward Malone’s stats to offset for Stockton’s greatness.
      Ridiculous.
      Amare played a portion of his career withe one of the greats, but he hasn’t had a great guard since arriving in NYC.
      Yet, even playing with arguably weak guards, Felton, Prigs, and a formerly great guard in Kidd, he’s been fantastic. Hell, when healthy last year, with a shit back court, he was very good.
      All things being equal, I said they were comparable, with Amare being a more efficient scorer and defensively comparable as well.
      We can adjust all kinds of things. I have watched both men play. Malone was great, but I’m not sure he’s as great without his buddy John. You’re suggesting Amare isn’t as great without D’Antoni.
      Malone was physically imposing, but not as athletic or as tall as Stat. Also, Stat had higher usage, and still maintained not a little edge in efficiency.
      I suspect if Amare had stayed with Nash, no one would be questioning his bonifides.
      One thing for sure, Malone was incredibly durable. At the end of he day, that set him apart.

    95. ruruland

      Frank O.:
      Owen:
      Adjusting for pace and era? He’s actually more productive now at a slower pace, with weaker point guards. And he’s currently one of the best scorers in the nba at his position.
      Maybe we should isolate and adjust MAlone’s stats because he played with a hall of famer his entire career. That aught to take him down a notch.
      Maybe that’s why they don’t adjust for pace when they make hall of fame selections…

      Karl Malone was really good. He was also one of the all-time cherry-pickers. Playing with the second best pnr pg of all-time didn’t hurt either.

    96. nicos

      max fisher-cohen: To be fair, this kind of proves his point. With Kidd and Brewer playing well, the Knicks started off 18-5. When Brewer and Kidd’s shooting touches started to fade, the Knicks fell off and they’re now 18-16 since.

      Also if you look at WP (sorta circular logic, but hey), Chandler and Kidd are far and away the best two players on the team, combining to produce 58% of the Knicks’ wins.

      I do think WP overrates low usage guys, especially guards, who are more often left with the burden of creating plays and so their limitations are not as easily hidden, but Kidd has been huge for this team.

      Kidd was huge the first 6 weeks and has been equally awful since (the last two games aside). He’s a complimentary player at this point. He’s still a good rebounder but whatever he gives you offensively is really reliant on someone else’s penetration- his passing these days is limited to dumping the ball into the post or making quick perimeter passes off of kick-outs. He certainly can’t get his own shot anymore. Defensively, he’s great at rotating in and getting strips and his man defense has been as good as you can expect from someone his age (meaning okay but not great) but he’s pretty bad at rotating out on spot-up shooters and his inability to recover from picks is one of the reasons the Knicks switch so much on the perimeter (at least in my opinion). His transition defense consists of gambling for a steal and then standing at half court and watching them lay it in when that fails. The idea that he’s contributed more to the the team than Melo (who played just as well those first 23 games and hasn’t sucked nearly so hard since) is ridiculous.

    97. ruruland

      thenamestsam: Agreed that the optimistic crowd are getting a little ahead of themselves with the Amare love. Yes, he has been a beast so far, but if you’re looking at 600 minutes and concluding that this is basically his new level now that he has a post game I think you’re getting a little ahead of yourself. Lets not forget all the ridiculous shooting numbers that various Knicks players were putting up after THEIR first 25 games of this year, only to see a big time regression.

      On top of that, for all the obsession that some people on here have with the issues of facing 2nd string defenders, not being the primary focus of opposing defenses, etc. when it applies to a player whose stats they’re trying to discredit (like James Harden last year for example), I don’t hear the same caveats applied to Amare quite as vigorously. Right now he’s facing 2nd team defenses for the most part, he’s frequently not the primary focus of the offense, and other teams haven’t had an opportunity to scout his new post game and game plan for it. It’s just too early to be concluding that he’s been completely revived as a dominant post scorer in my opinion.

      The second team defenders is a valid argument to me.

      However, there is a much larger dearth of quality frontcourt defenders than backcourt defenders.

      Teams have specialty wing defenders, not specialty individual post-defenders. There are very few quality post-scorers, and the problem can largely be abated by quick and long wings who can double-down and recover, one stone.

    98. ruruland

      nicos: Kidd was huge the first 6 weeks and has been equally awful since (the last two games aside).He’s a complimentary player at this point. He’s still a good rebounder but whatever he gives you offensively is really reliant on someone else’s penetration- his passing these days is limited to dumping the ball into the post or making quick perimeter passes off of kick-outs.He certainly can’t get his own shot anymore.Defensively, he’s great at rotating in and getting strips and his man defense has been as good as you can expect from someone his age (meaning okay but not great) but he’s pretty bad at rotating out on spot-up shooters and his inability to recover from picks is one of the reasons the Knicks switch so much on the perimeter (at least in my opinion).His transition defense consists of gambling for a steal and then standing at half court and watching them lay it in when that fails.The idea that he’s contributed more to the the team than Melo (who played just as well those first 23 games and hasn’t sucked nearly so hard since) is ridiculous.

      Kidd is a really talented/intuitive/quick reaction rebounder with great hands.

      But for however long it is before the metrics are developed that show opportunity cost and how lack of skills redistribute negative outcomes, then we will have to put up with these asinine posits.

    99. Owen

      Ruru – seems a touch aggressive, unless you are kidding….

      Frank O- Agree to disagree I guess. Just don’t see how Amare ever is going to measure up to the Mailman.

    100. Frank O.

      ruruland: Karl Malone was really good. He was also one of the all-time cherry-pickers. Playing with the second best pnr pg of all-time didn’t hurt either.

      Oh yeah, he cherry picked. Maybe we should statistically adjust for that. Lol. Oh and he choked in big games against more athletic opponents.

    101. ruruland

      Frank O.: Look, Amare has not played as long as Malone yet. But Malone played his ENTIRE career with one of the greatest PGs the game has seen. Using your logic, we should isolate that, some how develop a model to determine the average composite guard of that era, and clearly adjust downward Malone’s stats to offset for Stockton’s greatness.
      Ridiculous.
      Amare played a portion of his career withe one of the greats, but he hasn’t had a great guard since arriving in NYC.
      Yet, even playing with arguably weak guards, Felton, Prigs, and a formerly great guard in Kidd, he’s been fantastic. Hell, when healthy last year, with a shit back court, he was very good.
      All things being equal, I said they were comparable, with Amare being a more efficient scorer and defensively comparable as well.
      We can adjust all kinds of things. I have watched both men play. Malone was great, but I’m not sure he’s as great without his buddy John. You’re suggesting Amare isn’t as great without D’Antoni.
      Malone was physically imposing, but not as athletic or as tall as Stat. Also, Stat had higher usage, and still maintained not a little edge in efficiency.
      I suspect if Amare had stayed with Nash, no one would be questioning his bonifides.
      One thing for sure, Malone was incredibly durable. At the end of he day, that set him apart.

      I don’t think Malone was as great as his numbers. He was great, but inflated by flex, cherry-picking, Stockton.

      I think Amar’e is certainly comparable. Malone had Eaton beside him for many years and a lot of rough and tough bangers to do the defensive dirty work.

    102. ruruland

      Owen:
      Ruru – seems a touch aggressive, unless you are kidding….

      Frank O- Agree to disagree I guess. Just don’t see how Amare ever is going to measure up to the Mailman.

      Oh, come on, you honestly thought that was serious?

    103. ruruland

      Frank O.: Oh yeah, he cherry picked. Maybe we should statistically adjust for that. Lol. Oh and he choked in big games against more athletic opponents.

      Yep.

    104. ruruland

      maxwell_3g:
      I’m just going to throw this out there to change the subject a bit…does anyone else feel that woody is full of it with his explanation of the melo injury.i feel that he is covering for melo big time, the reason i dont know.for woody to be telling the truth, we would have to believe that melo (a star player in today’s NBA) told woodson that he needs to come out because of his knee and woodson blatantly ignored him and kept him in.I dont believe that happened for a second.The only coach that would ever possibly do that would be Pop, and he would do it to Danny Green of someone like that.There is no way in hell that woodson heard melo ask out due to an injured knee, looked melo in the eye, and kept him in.he has never stood up to melo, so why would he choose that time, when melo claimed to be injured, as a first.why has woodson concocted this story?i guess to deflect blame from melo taking himself out due to a self inflicted sore knee and the backlash that it cause with some (especially after lebron stayed in the game a day before.i think woodson really wants to stress that melo has been hurting for some time and has been a “warrior” playing through it. i’m really not trying to bash melo here (though I do feel he took himself out of a game that he could have played through when the team was struggling), im just calling BS on woodson’s explanation

      The trip was premeditated, though Melo choked on the fake limp. He’d been working on that since losing to Lebron.

    105. Frank O.

      Owen:
      Ruru – seems a touch aggressive, unless you are kidding….

      Frank O- Agree to disagree I guess. Just don’t see how Amare ever is going to measure up to the Mailman.

      Fair enough. I think Amare would have to play a bunch more. Malone had a friggin long career.
      Put a hall of fame guard on the Knicks and you’d be loving Stat. For too long, the Knicks with Amare have had mismatched players. I think it has soured you. With just a serviceable back court this year, both Stat and Melo have been very good, but you are very down on them. I understand, but it feels like you’re being more…emotional…choosing to see flaws where people are seeing very good play out of both those guys. Are they over paid? Maybe. But so is every player in the league not playing for the Heat or Thunder.

    106. Owen

      ahh right, glad i hedged….

      I think comparing Amare to Malone is sort of insane given the quality of Malone’s peak and his longevity, which is as yet undetermined for Stat, but which is projecting as out of the league in four years.

      But hey, I could be wrong about that too….

    107. ruruland

      nicos: Sorry, I wasn’t really directing it at you- I’m just pointing out that the hypocrisy is working both ways- if Amar’e was a guy WS has historically liked then no doubt the Berri-ites on the site would be crowing about his efficiency (see THCJ’s multiple posts about how valuable Chandler is on offense despite his low usage and I remember either he or Owen saying that even if Harden was the worst defensive player in the league he’d still be really valuable based on his scoring efficiency).Again, I’m fine with skepticism as to whether it’ll last- though again, when healthy he’s been a great, great scorer his whole career so it shouldn’t be such a surprise he’s playing…

      this. in other words, if Amar’e secured more rebounds, he’d also be recognized as a great defender and scorer by those folks.

    108. ruruland

      Owen:
      ahh right, glad i hedged….

      I think comparing Amare to Malone is sort of insane given the quality of Malone’s peak and his longevity, which is as yet undetermined for Stat, but which is projecting as out of the league in four years.

      But hey, I could be wrong about that too….

      What are the reasons you feel Amar’e won’t continue to play in this generally area offensively?

    109. nyklyt12

      Owen:
      Ruru – seems a touch aggressive, unless you are kidding….

      Frank O- Agree to disagree I guess. Just don’t see how Amare ever is going to measure up to the Mailman.

      I think comparing what stockton/malone did to what nash/amare acomplished is fair. You cannot argue that malone would’ve put up similar numbers without Stockton. And amare with his post game is showing us he still capable of being in the conversation. Amare at 22 pre microfacture surgery is comparable to a young Barkley. Im not sure how many are willing to go there when speaking of karl malone. These are all eye test comparisons of course.

    110. nicos

      Yeah, I’m a big Amar’e booster but Malone was really productive into his mid-30′s and never missed more than one game in his first thirteen seasons. That said, I’d say Amar’e at 25 was at least as good as Malone ever was if not better and had he stayed healthy who knows. And while I’d say it’s more likely that injury issues crop up again, it’s not impossible that he has a few more really good years (and possibly deep playoff runs) left in him and the narrative of his career vs. Malone’s could begin to look a whole lot different. Stranger things have happened.

    111. Owen

      We have a hall of fame point guard on the Knicks don’t we? ;-)

      My other response is, how good are you if you need a hall of fame point guard out there with you?

      I don’t think i am saying anything about Stat and Melo I haven’t been saying for years. I never was in the camp that either STAT or Melo would be our savior. And I really am not down on them relative to my normal state. Frankly, it’s been great seeing STAT give us something solid.

      I just wish they were more well rounded. I’d like Melo to be playing a little more like a power forward when he is at power forward. He had a nice scoring game against the Heat, with just one turnover. But I’d like a guy who does a little more up and down the box score while playing defense with a little more effort. With STAT, I think the expectations were so obscenely low he suddenly looks like a second team All-NBA player. He has played like an all star so far, maybe a coaches pick, but it’s just hard to imagine it continuing.

      And with both of them on max contracts, and chandler getting what he richly deserves, it’s a little hard to shoehorn in a hall of fame point guard….

      Frank O.: Fair enough. I think Amare would have to play a bunch more. Malone had a friggin long career.
      Put a hall of fame guard on the Knicks and you’d be loving Stat. For too long, the Knicks with Amare have had mismatched players. I think it has soured you. With just a serviceable back court this year, both Stat and Melo have been very good, but you are very down on them. I understand, but it feels like you’re being more…emotional…choosing to see flaws where people are seeing very good play out of both those guys. Are they over paid? Maybe. But so is every player in the league not playing for the Heat or Thunder.

    112. BigBlueAL

      You know if there are comparisons of today’s players with greats from the 80′s/90′s Im going to have to chime in lol.

      For starters there is no way in hell anybody should ever try to compare Amar’e (young or old) to Barkley. Barkley was an amazing rebounder and even more efficient than Amar’e. Check this out, for 4 seasons in a row (all with the 76ers) Barkley lead the NBA in TS% all in the 65-66% range while having usage rates no lower than 23% and as high as almost 27%. That is freaking insane.

      Malone wasnt as efficient or as good a rebounder as Barkley but he was still a much better rebounder than Amar’e although not quite as efficient but still pretty damn good. Defensively is where Malone has the huge advantage.

      I love Amar’e and am thrilled he is playing as good as he is now but he is no Malone and certainly no Barkley.

    113. DRed

      nicos:
      Yeah, I’m a big Amar’e booster but Malone was really productive into his mid-30?s and never missed more than one game in his first thirteen seasons.That said, I’d say Amar’e at 25 was at least as good as Malone ever was if not better and had he stayed healthy who knows.And while I’d say it’s more likely that injury issues crop up again, it’s not impossible that he has a few more really good years (and possibly deep playoff runs) left in him and the narrative of his career vs. Malone’s could begin to look a whole lot different.Stranger things have happened.

      I figured I’d look at how Malone did when Stockton wasn’t playing, but they both didn’t really miss time, and Malone in particular was incredibly durable. Stockton played 8 games in his career without Malone-that’s pretty insane.

    114. Owen

      Mostly injuries and age.

      I don’t really doubt his ability to score. I doubt his ability to log starters minutes for a whole season. And to do the other things, rebound, defend, pass, avoid turnovers. His track record is not so strong.

      He is still an offensive weapon, can’t argue that….

      ruruland: What are the reasons you feel Amar’e won’t continue to play in this generally area offensively?

    115. Owen

      Amare at his very best was as good as Malone. I think that’s fair to say. But Amare just hasn’t been able to produce that level for most of his career.

      But yeah, Stat’s two top seasons measure up pretty well against Malone’s.

    116. lavor postell

      If anybody is watching the Lakers-Thunder game right now, I just want to say that it’s been a fucking privilege to watch Kobe Bryant play his entire career. He’s playing with virtually one arm trying to will this corpse of a Lakers team to an 8th seed. To still have that fire and desire after already having achieved much loftier heights says a lot to me. I still think his place in the game has been inflated by team success and people’s weird obsession with guys who have made a number of buzzer beaters, but no doubt a first ballot HOFer.

    117. jon abbey

      lavor postell:
      If anybody is watching the Lakers-Thunder game right now, I just want to say that it’s been a fucking privilege to watch Kobe Bryant play his entire career.He’s playing with virtually one arm trying to will this corpse of a Lakers team to an 8th seed.To still have that fire and desire after already having achieved much loftier heights says a lot to me.I still think his place in the game has been inflated by team success and people’s weird obsession with guys who have made a number of buzzer beaters, but no doubt a first ballot HOFer.

      his longevity has been incredible, and his consistent sociopathic will to win has probably only been topped by Jordan in my memory. he is currently 5th alltime in career points and will likely pass Wilt (very soon) and Jordan (next season) and end up 3rd alltime, behind only Kareem and Karl Malone, tops alltime for a perimeter player.

    118. lavor postell

      jon abbey: his longevity has been incredible, and his consistent sociopathic will to win has probably only been topped by Jordan in my memory. he is currently 5th alltime in career points and will likely pass Wilt (very soon) and Jordan (next season) and end up 3rd alltime, behind only Kareem and Karl Malone, tops alltime for a perimeter player.

      Unreal

    119. Owen

      No question about that first ballot…..

      And I agree on the rest of it too. Kobe is a professional. And he is a world class competitor. And good at a lot of things on the court. But probably gets a lot more credit than he deserves.

      That said, I have a lot of respect for Kobe’s game on the court if not his personality off it. (I mean seriously, now painful are those postgame interviews?)

    120. maxwell_3g

      I ABSOLUTELY hated Karl Malone. that being said, going back and forth about a Karl Malone v STAT argument is just a waste of time. Anyone who thinks that is even close is arguing for the sake of arguing and is not seeking the truth. whats new

    121. Owen

      sorry, should have said a little more credit than he deserves…

      Owen:
      No question about that first ballot…..

      And I agree on the rest of it too. Kobe is a professional. And he is a world class competitor. And good at a lot of things on the court. But probably gets a lot more credit than he deserves.

      That said, I havea lot of respect for Kobe’s game on the court if not his personality off it. (I mean seriously, now painful are those postgame interviews?)

    122. nyklyt12

      BigBlueAL:
      You know if there are comparisons of today’s players with greats from the 80?s/90?s Im going to have to chime in lol.

      For starters there is no way in hell anybody should ever try to compare Amar’e (young or old) to Barkley.Barkley was an amazing rebounder and even more efficient than Amar’e.Check this out, for 4 seasons in a row (all with the 76ers) Barkley lead the NBA in TS% all in the 65-66% range while having usage rates no lower than 23% and as high as almost 27%.That is freaking insane.

      Malone wasnt as efficient or as good a rebounder as Barkley but he was still a much better rebounder than Amar’e although not quite as efficient but still pretty damn good.Defensively is where Malone has the huge advantage.

      I love Amar’e and am thrilled he is playing as good as he is now but he is no Malone and certainly no Barkley.

      while i completely i agree that Amare is no Malone or barkley for that matter, you’ll find that they’re numbers are comparable to a certain extent. I am just only beginning to understand advanced stats and look fwd to being corrected if i am wrong here, but this is what i found.
      over there best six seasons, which interestingly enough is close to identical for amare and barkley ,(22-27yrs old with exeption of amare at 23 only played 3 gms) and a little more spread out through malone’s career there average ts and usg is

      amare
      61.7 ts on 27.56 usg
      malone
      60.5 ts on 30.98 usg
      barkley
      64.9 ts on 24.91 usg.

      career wise amare isn’t even close to these other two hall of famers but you cannot discount amare was and still may be a special player when healty. I did not use this season for amare where he has a ts 64.5 on usg of 25.2 in 23.3 mpg in 27 gms (1/3 of a season).

    123. jon abbey

      two factoids I just learned:

      Russell Westbrook has never missed a game, now deep into his 5th season of playing every single one.

      Reggie Evans has gotten 22 percent of his shots blocked this year. I was watching him the other night, and it’s amazing just how bad he is at every aspect of the game that’s not rebounding.

    124. nicos

      nyklyt12: while i completely i agree that Amare is no Malone or barkley for that matter, you’ll find that they’re numbers are comparable to a certain extent. I am just only beginning to understand advanced stats and look fwd to being corrected if i am wrong here, but this is what i found.over there best six seasons, which interestingly enough is close to identical for amare and barkley ,(22-27yrs old with exeption of amare at 23 only played 3 gms) and a little more spread out through malone’s career there average ts and usg is

      amare
      61.7 ts on 27.56 usg
      malone
      60.5 ts on 30.98 usg
      barkley
      64.9 ts on 24.91 usg.

      career wise amare isn’t even close to these other two hall of famers but you cannot discount amare was and still may be a special player when healty. I did not use this season for amare where he has a ts 64.5 on usg of 25.2 in 23.3 mpg in 27 gms (1/3 of a season).

      And Barkley’s ultra high TS% numbers are tempered a bit by the fact he was a turnover machine early in his career- far worse than Amar’e during his best years. Of course, I love me some Mo Cheeks but he wasn’t quite Nash or Stockton. And it goes without saying that Barkley was a far superior rebounder and passer though probably a worse defender esp. early in his career- at least Amar’e was a pretty good shot blocker in his prime.

    125. lavor postell

      To be fair I don’t think Karl Malone was nearly as good as his numbers would lend you to believe. It’s always been stupid to me that Malone is kind of recognized as a more valuable player than Stockton which makes no sense to me.

      Stockton posted career marks of 60.8 TS%, 54.6% eFG%, 50.2 AST%, 20.8 TO%, 121 ORtg, 104 DRtg, .209 WS/48. His career usage was only 18.9% and peaked at 20.6 in his 6th and 7th seasons in the league. His assist percentage is ridiculous and it’s higher than Magic, CP3, Kidd (even if you eliminate the last 5 years of his career), Payton, etc. His true shooting destroys everybody on that list except Nash who is even with him.

      He also was one of the better ball poachers of his era and a non box score attribute was that consistently signed under market value in order to help the team, something Malone was notoriously a pain in the ass about.

      Malone I would say was a better player than Amar’e, but it’s not by nearly as vast a margin as some here are arguing, particularly if you compare their playoff numbers where Malone’s shooting really takes a huge hit dropping his TS% by 5.1% whereas STAT’s drops 1.5%.

    126. lavor postell

      Sorry I should have posted their regular season and post season numbers

      Malone TS%
      Regular Season: 57.7
      Postseason: 52.6

      Amare TS%
      Regular Season: 59.7
      Postseason: 58.2

    127. lavor postell

      Owen:
      Malone has played 3 times as many playoff games as Amare….

      My guess is if I looked at Malone’s first 60 that wouldn’t change much. Get back to you on that tomorrow.

    128. Frank O.

      BigBlueAL:
      You know if there are comparisons of today’s players with greats from the 80?s/90?s Im going to have to chime in lol.

      For starters there is no way in hell anybody should ever try to compare Amar’e (young or old) to Barkley.Barkley was an amazing rebounder and even more efficient than Amar’e.Check this out, for 4 seasons in a row (all with the 76ers) Barkley lead the NBA in TS% all in the 65-66% range while having usage rates no lower than 23% and as high as almost 27%.That is freaking insane.

      Malone wasnt as efficient or as good a rebounder as Barkley but he was still a much better rebounder than Amar’e although not quite as efficient but still pretty damn good.Defensively is where Malone has the huge advantage.

      I love Amar’e and am thrilled he is playing as good as he is now but he is no Malone and certainly no Barkley.

      If 9.8 boards is “way better” than 9.1 boards per 36, sure. I don’t think that’s way better

    129. Nick C.

      Malone crushes Amare on the non scoring aspects of the game. I don’t see why this is being argued. Rebounding by Reb% has Amare with an edge on the offensive glass: 8.9-7.9 defensive boards Malone has a much bigger edge: 23.5 – 19.5 for overall 16.0-14.3.
      Assists: it’s not even close /36 3.4-1.5 17.6-7.2 by ast%. steals closer: 1.4-09.9/36 1.9-1.3 by % blocks Amare is ahead by a lot ratio-wise 1.5-0.8/36 2.9-1.5 by %. TO and fouls are per /36 3.0 and 3.0 Malone 2.7 and 3.6 Amare. TO ratio 12.4 Malone and 12.7 Amare. So blocks and steals, to the extent they are repsesentative of anything are a draw. TO and fouls seem to be as well more or less. Amare has a slight edge on the O boards which probably wouldn’t hurt his TS% but Malone has a much bigger edge on the defensive borads and overall rebounding and realistically they are not in the same league assist wise. Look I got ridiculed in the game thread for a gushing Amare post but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

    130. Kurt

      Question for Mike K.:
      I remember a year or two ago you did a similarity score study on STAT and Malone was high on the list. Am I remembering correctly?

    131. Frank O.

      Nick C.:
      Malone crushes Amare on the non scoring aspects of the game. I don’t see why this is being argued. Rebounding by Reb% has Amare with an edge on the offensive glass: 8.9-7.9 defensive boards Malone has a much bigger edge: 23.5 – 19.5 for overall 16.0-14.3.
      Assists: it’s not even close /36 3.4-1.5 17.6-7.2 by ast%. steals closer: 1.4-09.9/36 1.9-1.3 by % blocks Amare is ahead by a lot ratio-wise 1.5-0.8/36 2.9-1.5 by %. TO and fouls are per /36 3.0 and 3.0 Malone 2.7 and 3.6 Amare. TO ratio 12.4 Malone and 12.7 Amare. So blocks and steals, to the extent they are repsesentative of anything are a draw. TO and fouls seem to be as well more or less. Amare has a slight edge on the O boards which probably wouldn’t hurt his TS% but Malone has a much bigger edge on the defensive borads and overall rebounding and realistically they are not in the same league assist wise. Look I got ridiculed in the game thread for a gushing Amare post but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

      Nick: as far as I can tell, you just made my point for me. I said they are comparable. And from what you just went through, which I went through last night, they are comparable.
      Now I also made it clear that Malone played for far longer, and his entire career with one of the best point guards the NBA has ever seen, so Amare must do more over a longer period.
      But my only point is that Amare was a more efficient scorer than Malone, and that all things being equal, the two players were surprisingly comparable.
      Your post didn’t dissuade me from thinking this; it actually supported my thesis.
      Much appreciated.

    132. Nick C.

      I guess I just took the more efficient, comparable (a word that affords a wide variety of opinions) rebounders meant Amare was better. I guess unless you have a fetish for assists, by which Malone more than doubles up Amare they fall in the same range. I guess I got a bug up my ass because the posts seemed to infer that Amare was better, even factoring out career length. It would not surprise me if Amare comp’d up well with McHale, who was a high percentage meh rebounding scoring PF.

    133. max fisher-cohen

      I don’t know why all the Mike Sweetney disses. Sweetney was GOOD his first season. He showed a lot of promise. Then he put on like 40 pounds and never lost it. He went from Big Baby chunkiness (where he probably coulda lost 40lb) to Tractor Traylor obesity. Put a 100lb tube around any player’s waist, and his career will fall apart.

    Comments are closed.