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Monday, October 20, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jun 25 2013)

  • [New York Times] Nuggets Hire Shaw as Coach: Report (Tue, 25 Jun 2013 05:37:14 GMT)
    The Denver Nuggets have hired Brian Shaw as their new coach, the Denver Post reported on Monday, giving the long-time assistant his first top job in the NBA.    

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Nuggets Hire Shaw as Coach (Tue, 25 Jun 2013 03:44:58 GMT)
    The Indiana Pacers assistant Brian Shaw said he had been hired as the coach of the Denver Nuggets.    

  • [New York Times] Brian Shaw Gets First Crack at Head Coaching Job (Tue, 25 Jun 2013 03:13:32 GMT)
    At long last, Brian Shaw is getting his first chance to coach an NBA team.    

  • [New York Times] Nets Discuss Lopez’s Foot Surgery and His Recovery (Tue, 25 Jun 2013 02:46:23 GMT)
    The screw in Brook Lopez’s right foot had become bent and was replaced after the Nets’ first-round loss in the playoffs.    

  • [New York Times] Bynum Set to Resume Workouts Next Week (Tue, 25 Jun 2013 01:40:23 GMT)
    Philadelphia 76ers center Andrew Bynum has completed his rehabilitation from season-ending knee surgery and is set to resume basketball workouts next week.    

  • 141 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jun 25 2013)

    1. massive

      Lamarcus Aldrige is on the trade block apparently. I would definitely consider moving Tyson Chandler for him, but 1) I would need to be completely sure Amar’e can’t play in this league anymore and 2) we would have to be getting a center back.

      I wish we had more flexibility. Putting Aldrige next to Melo would be great.

    2. Brian Cronin

      Cleveland offered the #1 and the #19 for him and Portland said no. So I dunno what they’re looking for.

    3. massive

      I actually read they were looking at Tiaggo Splitter or Nikola Pekovic. They probably tried to give them back Varejao and the Blazers didn’t want the injury risk with the contract?

      I don’t see how you turn down two top 20 picks for Aldrige when you’re building around Lillard.

    4. Brian Cronin

      I think the #1 pick right now will best case likely eventually become as good as Aldridge, so yeah, I dunno what Cleveland is thinking. It’s not like Aldridge is old.

    5. DRed

      Brian Cronin:
      I think the #1 pick right now will best case eventually become as good as Aldridge, so yeah, I dunno what Cleveland is thinking. It’s not like Aldridge is old.

      If the #1 pick is Noel, his best case scenario is becoming a player who is nothing at all like Aldridge. Noel’s best case is the DPY with efficient scoring. Think Camby with some offense. Aldridge is a volume scorer and a decent rebounder who doesn’t block a lot of shots. And while he’s not old, he’s going to make something like 14 million next season. I think you meant to say that you don’t know what Portland was thinking if they turned that deal down because it’s a no brainer.

    6. Brian Cronin

      Oh, I agree Portland should take the deal, as they need to rebuild. Cleveland, though, should not still be in the rebuilding stages and Aldridge would lift them into playoff contention and Irving/Aldridge would be a strong combo for some time.

    7. Brian Cronin

      That said, obviously “best case” was a poor choice of words, because best case for a lot of these draft picks is, like, Hall of Fame or whatever. So I should have said “likely,” as I don’t see Noel having much of a likely shot at DPOY.

    8. Hubert

      Just something from yesterday:

      I’d rate Atlanta basketball fans over Miami sports fans all day.

      I feel like Hawks fans rebranded themselves in the 2008 playoffs. Those were some great crowds and they went 3-0 at home as an 8 seed vs the eventual champion Celtics. Maybe it was just me, but I started to take them a little more seriously. They had better crowds as an 8 seed than Miami had in the Finals.

      Everyone knows Braves fans suck, no one cares about the Falcons, and only Gary Bettman is dumb enough to think hockey would work there…but I feel like Atlanta could be a very good basketball town if they got a team there. Plus Jalen Rose listed it in his top 5 cities for NBA players (maybe to visit more than to live).

    9. d-mar

      Brian Cronin:
      Oh, I agree Portland should take the deal, as they need to rebuild. Cleveland, though, should not still be in the rebuilding stages and Aldridge would lift them into playoff contention and Irving/Aldridge would be a strong combo for some time.

      I wonder if Cleveland has LeBron in the back of their minds when considering this deal. If he manages to win 3 in a row in Miami, I think they would have a shot at getting him in 2014 if they become a playoff team this year.

    10. Brian Cronin

      You better believe that having Irving and Aldridge would at least make them a more attractive landing spot for some notable free agent. Of course, the downside is that that pairing might quickly become quite expensive.

    11. thenamestsam

      Hubert:
      Just something from yesterday:

      I’d rate Atlanta basketball fans over Miami sports fans all day.

      I feel like Hawks fans rebranded themselves in the 2008 playoffs.Those were some great crowds and they went 3-0 at home as an 8 seed vs the eventual champion Celtics.Maybe it was just me, but I started to take them a little more seriously.They had better crowds as an 8 seed than Miami had in the Finals.

      Better crowds in what sense? Here are some facts: Miami was 3rd in attendance this year and 2nd in local tv ratings. They were 8th in attendance in 07-08 when they went 15-67. The Hawks haven’t been in the top half of the league in attendance since 2000 (that’s as far back as I could find data). That’s despite playoff teams the last 6 years.

      Do the Miami lower bowl fans arrive late? Yes, they do. Guess what? I was at MSG for 3 playoff games this year. The lower bowl was never more than about 2/3 full at tip. Judging an entire fan base off of the rich fucks who can pay $1000 a seat is patently absurd.

    12. Hubert

      thenamestsam: Better crowds in what sense? Here are some facts: Miami was 3rd in attendance this year and 2nd in local tv ratings. They were 8th in attendance in 07-08 when they went 15-67. The Hawks haven’t been in the top half of the league in attendance since 2000 (that’s as far back as I could find data). That’s despite playoff teams the last 6 years.

      Do the Miami lower bowl fans arrive late? Yes, they do. Guess what? I was at MSG for 3 playoff games this year. The lower bowl was never more than about 2/3 full at tip. Judging an entire fan base off of the rich fucks who can pay $1000 a seat is patently absurd.

      The Heat have had either Shaq and Wade or LeBron, Wade, and Bosh for the better half of the last 10 years. Citing their attendance during that time tells me nothing. I think Atlanta would draw better crowds if you gave them a Paul-Howard-Horford team than the shit they’ve had the last 20 years.

      The attendance during the 15-67 season is also misleading. That’s ticket sales, and they sold those tickets when they were coming off a good season, two summers removed from winning a title. I assure you there was 19,463 Miamians watching Ricky Davis, Daquaen Cook, and Chris Quinn leading the Heat to 15 wins while they were tanking for Derrick Rose.

      But I can’t throw many facts to support my argument other than the video of everyone trying to get back in the arena in game 6 and the fact that they sing the seven nation army like they’re at Euro 2008.

    13. Hubert

      I meant:

      Hubert: I assure you there was *NOT* 19,463 Miamians watching Ricky Davis, Daquaen Cook, and Chris Quinn leading the Heat to 15 wins while they were tanking for Derrick Rose.

    14. Brian Cronin

      pelicans going after Cope. Indy too.

      Well, that’s it for Cope, then. Fuck. That sucks. I guess there’s a chance he chooses to stick with the Knicks, but I guess it depends on how much more than $3 million New Orleans offers. $3.5, I could see him not signing that. $4 million? He’s got to sign that.

    15. Zanzibar

      Brian Cronin:
      You better believe that having Irving and Aldridge would at least make them a more attractive landing spot for some notable free agent. Of course, the downside is that that pairing might quickly become quite expensive.

      The Cavs are in an interesting position as they will be attempting to lure LBJ back to Cleveland. In the summer of 2014, they’ll essentially have team options on all of their players. They’ll keep Irving at 7m and maybe Varejao at 9.7m and have 45-55m in free cap space. Aldridge might be ideal in that he does not become a free agent until 2015; they could test drive an LBJ/Irving/Aldridge trio for a year. That type of flexibility might have great appeal to LBJ.

    16. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Brian Cronin:
      Of course, the downside is that that pairing might quickly become quite expensive.

      And that’s the issue right there…given how much of the cap those two will take up, and given that neither will ever be confused for great two-way players, will they really be that attractive to FAs? Especially considering, you know, that’s it’s The Mistake by the Lake?
      I love Irving and it’s a lot of fun to watch the kid play but the porous defense and the injury history give me pause in thinking of him as the true centerpiece of a contender. On the one hand, an Irving-Aldridge PnP/PnP would be devastating, the defense with those two sharing the court would be pretty bad unless they had ++ defenders at every other position. They’d need excellent rim protection/rebounding from a true 5 to mask Aldridge’s weaknesses in those areas (and Kyrie’s inability to stay in front of any quick guards), and they’d need capable wing defender’s at the 2 and 3 as well. It wouldn’t be that easy to build around those two and they would get VERY expensive VERY quickly.

    17. Hubert

      He would be a nice player for Indiana. Please don’t go to Indiana.

      Common sense tells you we need Prigioni more, and a backup for Chandler. And we’ll probably be able to replace him.

      But damn I just liked him and don’t want to see him go.

    18. Hubert

      Zanzibar: The Cavs are in an interesting position as they will be attempting to lure LBJ back to Cleveland. In the summer of 2014, they’ll essentially have team options on all of their players. They’ll keep Irving at 7m and maybe Varejao at 9.7m and have 45-55m in free cap space. Aldridge might be ideal in that he does not become a free agent until 2015; they could test drive an LBJ/Irving/Aldridge trio for a year. That type of flexibility might have great appeal to LBJ.

      Watching Cleveland kid themselves into thinking LeBron will go back there and then watching him not will be one of my favorite subplots of next season.

      Zero. Chance.

    19. johnno

      yellowboy90: pelicans going after Cope. Indy too.

      according to Marc Berman, which means, until it actually happens, take this news with a very large grain of salt. I would hate to see Copeland go because I really like the guy but, as a player, I think that he is replaceable. In other news, the Knicks are working out Quincy Douby today, which proves that teams really look at ALL possible options…

    20. Nick C.

      Isn’t Dan Gilbert still the owner of the Cavaliers? If he is it would take an awfully forgiving soul to want to work for him.

    21. DRed

      yellowboy90:
      pelicans going after Cope. Indy too.

      Sucks for us, but good for Cope. He put in a lot work, and he should go get that money if he can.

    22. Zanzibar

      Hubert: Watching Cleveland kid themselves into thinking LeBron will go back there and then watching him not will be one of my favorite subplots of next season.

      Zero.Chance.

      Don’t agree. When you listen to LeBron, he’s very much tied to his roots. I think a large part of him would like to play out his prime in Cleveland and win a chip there. The Cavs situation would give him tremendous flexibility even more so than the Heat originally. If I were LBJ, I would announce that I would sign with the Cavs IF AND ONLY IF Dan Gilbert sells the team and maintains no financial interest of any kind in it. I’m serious!

    23. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Hubert: Watching Cleveland kid themselves into thinking LeBron will go back there and then watching him not will be one of my favorite subplots of next season.

      Zero.Chance.

      THIS. The logic that he’ll want to bolt the cozy confines of South Beach for the cold embrace of Cleveland simply because he’s won a couple (or more) rings is not sound. If anything, he’ll quietly convince Riles to jettison Bosh to free up cap space to add something that will help prolong his dynasty window there. Basically, I think LeBron is done changing teams until, probably, the tail end of his career. Certainly, I think he’ll stay in Miami at least through his “prime years”, which, for a guy who seems to be made of Adamantium & granite, may be a while.

    24. Hubert

      Zanzibar: If I were LBJ, I would announce that I would sign with the Cavs IF AND ONLY IF Dan Gilbert sells the team and maintains no financial interest of any kind in it. I’m serious!

      like I said: ZERO CHANCE!

    25. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Zanzibar: Don’t agree. When you listen to LeBron, he’s very much tied to his roots. I think a large part of him would like to play out his prime in Cleveland and win a chip there. The Cavs situation would give him tremendous flexibility even more so than the Heat originally. If I were LBJ, I would announce that I would sign with the Cavs IF AND ONLY IF Dan Gilbert sells the team and maintains no financial interest of any kind in it. I’m serious!

      No way he’s playing for Gilbert again and no way he’s somehow convincing the city of Cleveland to stage a coup and overthrow Gilbert. I’m sure he is tied to his roots, but he paid his dues there for 7 years and they couldn’t put a winner together. I don’t believe that he wants to go back there SO BADLY that he’ll give up the life he has now, open himself up to the potential maelstrom of media/fan backlash if he goes back to Cleveland and they DON’T win a title. It’s not happening. Neither is The Lakers move that some have floated as a possibility.

    26. Hubert

      I mean, I came up with a crazy plan to free up cap space for LeBron to join the Knicks in 2014 last week and even I knew it had zero chance.

      He’s getting players to come to him next time.

    27. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Hubert: like I said: ZERO CHANCE!

      LBJ GOING BACK TO CLEVELAND PROS & CONS LIST:

      CONS:
      Cold
      Aesthetically un-appealing industrial city with little nightlife to speak of
      State income tax
      Fanbase that hates him (even though I’m sure the love could be re-kindled)
      Owner that hates him
      Public backlash from changing teams again in his prime (Mercenary status)
      Very infrequent hot girls in thongs sightings…in public, at least

      PROS:
      He’s from a city that’s close to there
      Kyrie Irving
      Dion Waiters?
      Anderson Vare-Ow?
      Tyler Zeller?
      Maybe LaMarcus Aldridge?

    28. Hubert

      The sad irony of our summer situation, by the way, is that we had the magic bullet to enable us to bring back Pablo and Copeland. But we used it last year to give a bad contract to Steve Novak and to let Jeremy Lin go to Houston.

      (I’m assuming that if we had never brought last year’s case to the union, the loophole wouldn’t have been closed on its own and we could have brought the case to the union this year with Pablo and Copeland as the subjects instead.)

    29. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Hubert:
      The sad irony of our summer situation, by the way, is that we had the magic bullet to enable us to bring back Pablo and Copeland.But we used it last year to give a bad contract to Steve Novak and to let Jeremy Lin go to Houston.

      (I’m assuming that if we had never brought last year’s case to the union, the loophole wouldn’t have been closed on its own and we could have brought the case to the union this year with Pablo and Copeland as the subjects instead.)

      I don’t think it would have gone down like that though. The big difference being that Lin and Novak were on other NBA teams and waived, right? I mean, one year in the NBA wouldn’t allow for Early-Bird exceptions to be made. Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought the whole argument was that Lin and Novak should retain their early bird status because they were released and didn’t choose to leave their respective teams. Am I wrong?

    30. d-mar

      Keniman Shumpwalker: LBJ GOING BACK TO CLEVELAND PROS & CONS LIST:

      CONS:
      Cold
      Aesthetically un-appealing industrial city with little nightlife to speak of
      State income tax
      Fanbase that hates him (even though I’m sure the love could be re-kindled)
      Owner that hates him
      Public backlash from changing teams again in his prime (Mercenary status)
      Very infrequent hot girls in thongs sightings…in public, at least

      PROS:
      He’s from a city that’s close to there
      Kyrie Irving
      Dion Waiters?
      Anderson Vare-Ow?
      Tyler Zeller?
      Maybe LaMarcus Aldridge?

      PROS – the chance to be not just one of the greatest players in NBA history, but to bring a title to a city that has won NOTHING in how many years? What was their last championship anyway – the Browns? LeBron has a strong sense of history and legacy; I would not discount the possibility of him returning to his home state, Gilbert or no Gilbert.

    31. thenamestsam

      Hubert: The Heat have had either Shaq and Wade or LeBron, Wade, and Bosh for the better half of the last 10 years.Citing their attendance during that time tells me nothing.I think Atlanta would draw better crowds if you gave them a Paul-Howard-Horford team than the shit they’ve had the last 20 years.

      The attendance during the 15-67 season is also misleading.That’s ticket sales, and they sold those tickets when they were coming off a good season, two summers removed from winning a title.I assure you there was 19,463 Miamians watching Ricky Davis, Daquaen Cook, and Chris Quinn leading the Heat to 15 wins while they were tanking for Derrick Rose.

      But I can’t throw many facts to support my argument other than the video of everyone trying to get back in the arena in game 6 and the fact that they sing the seven nation army like they’re at Euro 2008.

      Well if you don’t like the attendance in the 15 win season you might note they were still in the top half the next year coming off a 15 win season and as a .500 team.

      Look, I’m not saying they’re the best fans in the league. Far from it. The seven nation army thing is one of the most annoying things I’ve ever heard, and clearly some people made a big mistake leaving game 6 early. However, as you yourself pointed out at the time, a lot didn’t. http://www.diehardsport.com/2013/06/19/chris-bosh-blocks-danny-greens-shot-time-expired-ot-game-6/ I just think the stereotyping of them as the worst fans in the league is stupid and not backed up whatsoever by anything. To me it’s just lazy thinking based mainly on jealousy by the basketball world at large.

    32. Hubert

      Keniman Shumpwalker: I don’t think it would have gone down like that though. The big difference being that Lin and Novak were on other NBA teams and waived, right? I mean, one year in the NBA wouldn’t allow for Early-Bird exceptions to be made. Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought the whole argument was that Lin and Novak should retain their early bird status because they were released and didn’t choose to leave their respective teams. Am I wrong?

      I think you are right and I am very relieved!

    33. Keniman Shumpwalker

      d-mar: PROS – the chance to be not just one of the greatest players in NBA history, but to bring a title to a city that has won NOTHING in how many years? What was their last championship anyway – the Browns? LeBron has a strong sense of history and legacy; I would not discount the possibility of him returning to his home state, Gilbert or no Gilbert.

      Yeah, there is that. But I’m not sure it’s a strong enough pull for him to take the risk of going there and failing again. The flip side of that coin is the hit his growing legacy would take if he bolted yet another fan base and didn’t end up with any additional rings to make it all worthwhile. Strong sense of legacy, yes, which is why I could see him going back there post-prime, in his mid-thirties, to try and make a run at a ring in his sort-of-hometown. But I find it very hard to believe he’d do it while still in his prime years and smack dab in the middle of a potential dynasty.

    34. Frank

      Berman also reporting the Knicks are trying to get Kostas Papanikolaou back from Portland — first thing I thought was no way is that a good idea — but then I checked out his Euroleague stats from this year and they are really really good:

      Euroleague (Greek league) per-40: 16pts, 7.4 reb, 3 assists, 2 stls, 1 block with a TS of 66. 40% from 3 point range.

      Euroleague (Olympiakos- beat Real Madrid for the title in the 2nd best league in the world) per 40: 14.7 pts, 7.4 reb, 2.3 assists, 1.5 steals, 1 block, TS of 65, 52% on 3PA on 96 attempts.

      He also won the Euroleague Rising Stars award for players under 22- previous winners – Nikola Mirotic, Gallinari, Rubio, Bargnani, Rudy Fernandez.

      Grunwald’s trying to offer a 2nd according to Berman, whereas Portland wants #24 for #39+ Papanikolaou. I could easily see (and support) that trade where we come out of this draft with Papa as well as Nate Wolters or Kabongo or someone like that.

      I know there will be some resistance to giving an asset for a guy who just traded last year — but that’s all water under the bridge. Unless the team is in love with a player at #24, I would do that trade. And maybe get Portland to throw in another 2nd rounder or something.

    35. Frank

      Hubert:
      But there’s no way around the stupidity of giving this guy away to Portland when we didn’t have to and then trying to get him back a year later only to discover he now carries the value of a first round pick:

      http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/papa_shot_RrBjOOwiJyQYoFmO1xmBZJ?utm_campaign=OutbrainA&utm_source=OutbrainArticlepages&obref=obinsource

      lol – we were writing at the same time. IMHO – if Grunwald thinks Kostas is really good, then we can’t compound one mistake (trading him away) with another (not getting him back if the price is reasonable).

      If you ask me (and of course I’m no basketball scout- just looking at his performance in a league that’s better than the NCAA) — there’s no reason to think he isn’t just as good as all these other guys clustered in the late 1st round. And if they’re enamored with Wolters or Kabongo anyway…. there’s a good chance one of those two might be available at 39.

    36. Hubert

      d-mar: PROS – the chance to be not just one of the greatest players in NBA history, but to bring a title to a city that has won NOTHING in how many years? What was their last championship anyway – the Browns? LeBron has a strong sense of history and legacy; I would not discount the possibility of him returning to his home state, Gilbert or no Gilbert.

      He’s already turned that down, though. What makes you think it’s more appealing now that the owner insulted him and the city burned his effigy?

      The same idiot executives that couldn’t surround him a good enough team are still there (minus Ferry, who was replaced with his assistant from the LeBron era). The same fool is coaching them again. The owner brings a god damn clown circus to the lottery with him every year. And Kyrie Irving ISN’T SO GOOD to make him overlook all that. That is a Mickey Mouse operation if there ever was one.

      I do agree that his roots there are strong. I can see him going back there when he is 33-34 years old. But right now, in his prime, he is sticking with Riley, Spoelstra, Arison, and the franchise that he KNOWS he can win multiple titles with. Not some Mickey Mouse outfit run by a man he hates in a place he already walked away from once. Zero chance.

    37. Hubert

      Frank: lol – we were writing at the same time.IMHO – if Grunwald thinks Kostas is really good, then we can’t compound one mistake (trading him away) with another (not getting him back if the price is reasonable).

      If you ask me (and of course I’m no basketball scout- just looking at his performance in a league that’s better than the NCAA) — there’s no reason to think he isn’t just as good as all these other guys clustered in the late 1st round.And if they’re enamored with Wolters or Kabongo anyway…. there’s a good chance one of those two might be available at 39.

      I would take The Greek and the #39 for the #24, too.

      I was just looking at that trade from last year, though, and wondering why we threw him in the first place. We gave them a 2nd round pick and cash for a guy they didn’t want to re-sign. And then we gave them more!!! Because that’s what we do!!!

    38. johnno

      Hubert: I was just looking at that trade from last year, though, and wondering why we threw him in the first place. We gave them a 2nd round pick and cash for a guy they didn’t want to re-sign. And then we gave them more!!! Because that’s what we do!!!

      I love how people assume that they know better than the people involved what would have gotten a deal done. You are assuming that the Knicks “threw him in.” Maybe Portland drew a line in the sand and the Knicks had no choice if they wanted Felton.
      The Blazers have picks 39, 40 and 45. Maybe the Knicks can get the Greek guy and two second round picks for #24?

    39. Brian Cronin

      I’d do that deal if Wolters is seriously available at #39. Otherwise, the gap between #24 and #39 is pretty severe, talent-wise. So I dunno…it’s definitely a tough call.

    40. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Frank: lol – we were writing at the same time.IMHO – if Grunwald thinks Kostas is really good, then we can’t compound one mistake (trading him away) with another (not getting him back if the price is reasonable).

      If you ask me (and of course I’m no basketball scout- just looking at his performance in a league that’s better than the NCAA) — there’s no reason to think he isn’t just as good as all these other guys clustered in the late 1st round.And if they’re enamored with Wolters or Kabongo anyway…. there’s a good chance one of those two might be available at 39.

      Yeah I mostly agree. The only thing that would change my mind would be if Schroeder/Larkin/Dieng were still sitting there at #24. I’d take the upside and roster fit of those guys over Papa. Also, that report from Berman stresses that the desire for Papa is born out of the need for another wing given Woodson’s insistence on playing Melo at the 4…which terrifies me…but there’s a piece in, I think, the Daily News today saying that Woody is considering a return to a traditional lineup with Melo at the 3…which pleases me greatly. Whatever, the point is we should never have given this guy away in the first place if we really felt he was a valuable asset.

    41. Keniman Shumpwalker

      johnno: I love how people assume that they know better than the people involved what would have gotten a deal done.You are assuming that the Knicks “threw him in.”Maybe Portland drew a line in the sand and the Knicks had no choice if they wanted Felton.
      The Blazers have picks 39, 40 and 45.Maybe the Knicks can get the Greek guy and two second round picks for #24?

      I think these assumptions are borne out of the knowledge that our front office will consistently make head-scratching decisions and give away valuable assets for, seemingly, no reason at all. You’re right though, it is just an assumption made with little knowledge of the actual negotiating process…but there is basis for these types of assumptions given the history of our front office.

    42. Brian Cronin

      I read the Daily News article, and honestly, even that info still seems to suggest that Woody is looking at Melo as a 4. He just is considering starting STAT. I could easily see him starting STAT. The same way he started James White, ya know?

    43. yellowboy90

      I The thing NY has going for them is that he doesn’t want to play for the Blazers.

      I would definitely do the Pap deal for two 2nd rounders but I’d stll look to buy a pick in the first. Pap and Muscala would be awesome.

    44. Z

      Brian Cronin:
      I’d do that deal if Wolters is seriously available at #39. Otherwise, the gap between #24 and #39 is pretty severe, talent-wise. So I dunno…it’s definitely a tough call.

      Doesn’t NY need to make a first round draft pick this year? So if we do trade the #24 for a 2nd rounder, we will already know who the players involved are because it will have to be after the draft, right?

    45. Z

      yellowboy90:

      I’d stll look to buy a pick in the first. Pap and Muscala would be awesome.

      By “by a pick” do you mean trade James White for a guaranteed contract + a 1st rounder?

    46. Frank

      Z: By “by a pick” do you mean trade James White for a guaranteed contract + a 1st rounder?

      We’d have to send a nonguaranteed contract AND take guaranteed salary back to make it a net financial + for the other team. There aren’t that many teams that have guys they want to get rid of just for cash. Though I could imagine something like White + Q nonguaranteed contracts + #39 (if we get it from POR) for #26 + Ridnour’s contract, or something like that. Minny probably wouldn’t do it, but they DO have 725 point guards thanks to Kahn’s strange fascination with them.

    47. mokers

      I would probably do the deal if we get 39 and 40. There will still be talent out there. Wolters, Muscala, Noguieara, Kabongo. But again, the problem is that we need to convince Woodson to play any of these guys.

    48. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Brian Cronin:
      I read the Daily News article, and honestly, even that info still seems to suggest that Woody is looking at Melo as a 4. He just is considering starting STAT. I could easily see him starting STAT. The same way he started James White, ya know?

      No you’re right, it wasn’t exactly strong evidence that Woody is pulling his head out of his ass in regards to lineup construction, but at least it was SOMETHING indicating a change in thinking. It’s obviously all just speculation and anonymous sources at this point so it really bears little significance.

    49. DRed

      I think we need to take Wolters at the 24 if he’s available, but if there are a bunch of 2nd round guys left then I’d be okay with bringing back the Grecian and trying to get my man James Ennis in the second. I never understood why we traded the Greek guy in the first place.

    50. Frank

      Like Mokers wrote – I’d do #24 for Papa + 39 and 40 — then try my hardest to package 39+40+White/Q contracts to get back into the back of the 1st round — or even trade with Cleveland to get #31 + Alonzo Gee’s contract or something.

    51. massive

      DRed:
      I think we need to take Wolters at the 24 if he’s available, but if there are a bunch of 2nd round guys left then I’d be okay with bringing back the Grecian and trying to get my man James Ennis in the second.I never understood why we traded the Greek guy in the first place.

      There’s every reason to believe Wolters will be there at #24. The question is will he be available at #39 after the Spurs and Thunder have already picked.

    52. massive

      I like that we’re in discussions with Portland. They want to trade LaMarcus Aldridge and the #10 pick, too. Maybe we can con them into some form of a heist.

    53. Hubert

      johnno: I love how people assume that they know better than the people involved what would have gotten a deal done.You are assuming that the Knicks “threw him in.”Maybe Portland drew a line in the sand and the Knicks had no choice if they wanted Felton.
      The Blazers have picks 39, 40 and 45.Maybe the Knicks can get the Greek guy and two second round picks for #24?

      1. What Keniman Shumpwalker said in 46.

      2. Portland did not want to sign Ray Felton. There is an established price for giving away players you don’t want in a sign and trade. And it’s less than a 2nd round pick, cash, and a European prospect. You only pay that kind of premium if you make it known that you’re desperate and impatient, something that for some reason we do consistently.

    54. Frank

      Hubert: Portland did not want to sign Ray Felton. There is an established price for giving away players you don’t want in a sign and trade. And it’s less than a 2nd round pick, cash, and a European prospect. You only pay that kind of premium if you make it known that you’re desperate and impatient, something that for some reason we do consistently.

      to be honest, we were desperate and inpatient because we had to decide on matching the Lin offer, and only had what, 72 hours to find a replacement point guard?

    55. DRed

      Hubert: 1. What Keniman Shumpwalker said in 46.

      2. Portland did not want to sign Ray Felton.There is an established price for giving away players you don’t want in a sign and trade.And it’s less than a 2nd round pick, cash, and a European prospect.You only pay that kind of premium if you make it known that you’re desperate and impatient, something that for some reason we do consistently.

      Some reason. . .like having an owner who is a fucking moron?

    56. Frank

      I think we need to take it easy on Grunwald for this one. A team with championship aspirations couldn’t just go into the season without a real point guard. We didn’t know what Prigs was at the time (I don’t even think we had signed him yet?). We didn’t have Kidd yet. And literally no reasonable alternative was available with just the mini-MLE– even DJ Augustin got 3.5M. Ramon Sessions got $5M.

      There probably was an organizational (ie. Dolan) decision made already that we weren’t matching Lin – but officially that decision hadn’t been made yet by the time the Felton talks were happening. Can you imagine the barrel other teams would have had over us if we had already let Lin go and had zero options otherwise?

      Essentially we got an average starting PG on a reasonable $ deal for two second round picks and cash (oh right, we traded Jared Jeffries and Gadzuric too). Yes, Kostas looks like he’d be a nice player now, but IMHO that is still a steal.

      With the structure of our team (3 max contracts) and little else, we had very little leverage in any of these trade talks. And remember – all this was done before Grunwald took the reins. I still think Grunwald has done an absolutely amazing job.

    57. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Frank: to be honest, we were desperate and inpatient because we had to decide on matching the Lin offer, and only had what, 72 hours to find a replacement point guard?

      You’re right, but therein lies the fault: We should never be in a position in which we are desperate and impatient to acquire a league-average PG to replace the basically league average (at this point, at least…maybe even below average) PG who we let walk for nothing. I’m not saying we should have matched the Lin offer sheet (I was in favor of not matching from the start), nor am I saying that Ray wasn’t the best available given our resources…what I am saying is that the way both of those transactions went down-the fact that we got nothing in return for Lin and gave up too much for RayRay-is indicative of the front office chaos that reigns supreme at The Garden thanks to JD & The Straight Shot (yes, the entire band incurs my wrath).

    58. Vinny L.

      About Half of the NBA’s GMs and/or scouts rated the top 50 NBA prospects on a 0-to-10 scale. A rating of 0 meant that the player “won’t make the league or will have a very minimal NBA career,” while a score of 10 meant he was a “top-of-the-line, elite prospect.”

      ESPN took these scores, averaged them and prorated them on a 100-point scale. This created a consensus “wisdom of the crowd” effect:

      1. Victor Oladipo, SG, Indiana. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 85.0 (of 100)

      2. Nerlens Noel, C, Kentucky. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 82.5

      3. Ben McLemore, SG, Kansas. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 81.7

      4. Anthony Bennett, PF, UNLV. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 81.5

      5. Otto Porter Jr., SF, Georgetown. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 80.0

      6. Alex Len, C, Maryland. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 77.5

      7. C.J. McCollum, PG, Lehigh. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 75.0

      8. Cody Zeller, PF, Indiana. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 73.3

      9. Trey Burke, PG, Michigan. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 73.1

      10 (tie). Michael Carter-Williams, PG, Syracuse. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 69.2

      10 (tie). Dario Saric, SF, Croatia. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 69.2

      12. Dennis Schroeder, PG, Germany. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 66.7

      13 (tie). Steven Adams, C, Pittsburgh. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 66.2

      13 (tie). Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, SG, Georgia. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 66.2

      15. Kelly Olynyk, C, Gonzaga. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 64.2

      16. Shane Larkin, PG, Miami. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 63.3

      17. Sergey Karasev, SG, Russia. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 62.5

      18. Allen Crabbe, SG, California. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 60.8

      19 (tie). Giannis Antetokounmpo, SF, Greece. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 60.0

      19 (tie). Lucas Nogueira, C, Brazil. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 60.0

      21 (tie). Isaiah Canaan, PG,…

    59. johnno

      Frank: Yes, Kostas looks like he’d be a nice player now, but IMHO that is still a steal.

      When the draft was on TV last year, the international expert (I think that it’s Fran Frischilla?) said about the guy something along the lines of, “Knicks fans will like him. But remember, there’s a reason that he lasted this long in the draft. He’s not a future starter. He projects to be an end of the rotation guy, like a #8 or 9 guy on a good team in a couple of years.” In light of that, I don’t think that the Knicks gave up much of anything in return for Felton. The fact that he apparently has improved a lot does not mean that it was a bad deal at the time.

    60. Vinny L.

      21 (tie). Isaiah Canaan, PG, Murray State. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 59.2

      21 (tie). Shabazz Muhammad, SF, UCLA. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 59.2

      23. Jamaal Franklin, SG, San Diego State. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 57.5

      24 (tie). Mason Plumlee, C, Duke. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 56.7

      24 (tie). Tim Hardaway Jr., SG, Michigan. Secret NBA Draft Big Board Rating: 56.7

    61. Frank

      Keniman Shumpwalker: what I am saying is that the way both of those transactions went down-the fact that we got nothing in return for Lin and gave up too much for RayRay-is indicative of the front office chaos that reigns supreme at The Garden thanks to JD & The Straight Shot (yes, the entire band incurs my wrath).

      Do you really think 2 second round picks and cash is too much to give up for Raymond Felton? Really?

      How many 2nd round picks (percentage-wise) actually amount to anything?

      From the 2012 draft, only 2 guys played real minutes — Jae Crowder and Draymond Green.

      From 2011 only 3 guys would be considered rotation players – Kyle Singler, Chandler Parsons, and Lavoy Allen.

      From 2010 – only 2 guys are rotation players – Landry Fields and Lance Stephenson

      From 2009 – much better year– but out of these guys (Sam Young, Dejuan Blair, Jodie Meeks, Patrick Beverley, Marcus Thornton, Chase Budinger, and Danny Green) really only Danny Green is better than a replacement level player ie. vet’s minimum contract. And he was cut by the team the drafted him.

      I’m not saying we shouldn’t have tried to get Felton for less– but really, a starting league-average PG for two #2s at $4MM/year is a very good deal.

      And re: not getting anything for Lin — remember – once Houston made their initial offer to him and it was LARGER than the Early Bird max (4 years 22MM or so) we could give him, there was NEVER any chance we could get anything for him. he would have had to accept an offer that was less than he could get just by signing with Houston. Now you might say that we should have matched the offer then tried to trade him, but would anyone take him in trade at this point at ~$8MM/year except for marketing reasons?

    62. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Frank:
      And re: not getting anything for Lin — remember – once Houston made their initial offer to him and it was LARGER than the Early Bird max (4 years 22MM or so) we could give him, there was NEVER any chance we could get anything for him. he would have had to accept an offer that was less than he could get just by signing with Houston.Now you might say that we should have matched the offer then tried to trade him, but would anyone take him in trade at this point at ~$8MM/year except for marketing reasons?

      I can think of one team, a team that LOVES to make deals with us…the Rockets. Look, you’re not wrong, we were definitely hamstrung by the CBA and the timing of everything, but we had to know that someone COULD make the type of offer that Houston made and, thus, should have had a plan in place should that happen. Expect the best, prepare for the worst. The fact is, it seemed like we were in total panic-scramble mode as soon as the numbers from that offer sheet went down. It was as if we had no idea of that possibility. Also, maybe I’m not remembering it right (not a stretch given the many brain cells I’ve senselessly slaughtered over the years), but I thought the initital offer, the one prior to the “poison pill” offer, was totally within our means to match. It was only the second offer that made us, rightly, balk.

      RE: Felton…the problem is, and Hubert brought this up above, that Portland was dead set on getting rid of Ray. They should have had ZERO leverage. So, in a vacuum, what we gave up for Ray is not “too much”. But given the context, it was, especially if we’re now so high on the Greek kid.

    63. Keniman Shumpwalker

      And look, maybe I’m just scarred from years of terrible decision making that I over-analyze these relatively small transactions and search for flaws in the process, but it feels like we’d be one of only a handful of NBA teams that would have handled that situation as poorly as we did, and come away with as little as we did. In sum total (sort of), we gave away:

      4 2nd round picks
      Cash
      The rights to Papanikolau
      Jared Jefferies
      Jerome Jordan
      Josh Harrelson

      for Felton and Camby (plus the unnecessary years & $ we gave Camby).

      Add that to losing Lin with no return. It just doesn’t feel like a series of moves that a front office with a real solid plan makes. This isn’t, to my mind, a knock on GG so much as it is a knock on Dolan and the instability he creates.

    64. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Keniman Shumpwalker:
      And look, maybe I’m just scarred from years of terrible decision making that I over-analyze these relatively small transactions and search for flaws in the process, but it feels like we’d be one of only a handful of NBA teams that would have handled that situation as poorly as we did, and come away with as little as we did. In sum total (sort of), we gave away:

      4 2nd round picks
      Cash
      The rights to Papanikolau
      Jared Jefferies
      Jerome Jordan
      Josh Harrelson

      for Felton and Camby (plus the unnecessary years & $ we gave Camby).

      Add that to losing Lin with no return. It just doesn’t feel like a series of moves that a front office with a real solid plan makes. This isn’t, to my mind, a knock on GG so much as it is a knock on Dolan and the instability he creates.

      I forgot to add that we got back season savior Kurt “Crazy Eyes” Thomas in that deal and he basically salvaged our season that day in Utah so…there’s that. Gotta give credit for that. Also, Kurt Thomas teamed up with Sheed to form the “All-1990’s Wardrobe All-Star Frontcourt”.

    65. johnno

      Keniman Shumpwalker: we had to know that someone COULD make the type of offer that Houston made and, thus, should have had a plan in place should that happen. Expect the best, prepare for the worst.

      Actually, at the time, I thought (and still think) that the pre-emptive move of acquiring Felton on the cheap was a brilliant pre-emptive move. Also, they signed Prigioni which, if my memory serves me correctly, there were rumblings that that they were going to do even before Lin signed his offer sheet. Overall, I think that their “Plan B” was a really good one.

    66. johnno

      Keniman Shumpwalker: 4 2nd round picks
      Cash
      The rights to Papanikolau
      Jared Jefferies
      Jerome Jordan
      Josh Harrelson

      Wow. You’re right. This is a veritable all-star team that we gave up for a starting point guard on a 54 win team (who is being paid a lot less than the average salary for a starting point guard on a good team). Too bad it’s impossible to get Jefferies, Harrelson and Jordan back. What’s that? They’re all available for free right now? Oh. Never mind…

    67. Keniman Shumpwalker

      johnno: Wow.You’re right.This is a veritable all-star team that we gave up for a starting point guard on a 54 win team (who is being paid a lot less than the average salary for a starting point guard on a good team).Too bad it’s impossible to get Jefferies, Harrelson and Jordan back.What’s that?They’re all available for free right now?Oh.Never mind…

      Ha. No, you’re absolutely right. The names on that list shouldn’t inspire any sort of regret. The point that I was making was just that we probably didn’t need to give up all that to get what we got. At the very least, those 2nd round picks and non-guaranteed contracts could have come in handy at some point. I just feel like we were, as is typical, negotiating against ourselves and not utilizing whatever scant leverage we had. Forget the players (although JJ might have helped some last year), 4 2nd round picks and the Greek kid for Felton and a back-up big who never played is a lot. Hell, instead of trading for Camby and luring Sheed out of retirement, we could have had Birdman and K-Mart from the jump (although K-Mart probably needed to sit unemployed for as long as he did before he’d have taken the vets minimum).

    68. BigBlueAL

      The criticism of Miami sports fans is that they are bandwagon fans, not that they dont support their teams. Ive lived down here since 1990 and the 1 team that this city supports 100% and has always supported is the Dolphins. Miami is a football town, even high-school football is pretty popular.

      As a Knicks fan living down here I HATE the fact that the Heat now have such a great team because their fans certainly dont deserve it. Look at the attendance numbers for the Hardaway/Zo teams which put the Heat on the map, they were horrible. Those teams won 4 division titles in a row (including a 61 win season) and nobody down here gave a crap.

      Attendance skyrocketed when Shaq came to town, they had a huge pep rally similar to when the Big 3 arrived when he came here too. Yet still I knew alot of people who still didnt care about the Heat even when they won it all in 2006. But ever since LeBron came here?? Everybody and their mother are all of a sudden huge Heat fans.

      The day LeBron leaves interest in the Heat down here will plummet. I know most sports teams are like that in terms of attendance which is understandable but again the Heat had excellent teams in the late 90’s/early 00’s and nobody cared. But big superstars came to town (Shaq then especially LeBron) and everybody loved the Heat down here all of a sudden.

    69. massive

      I think why Miami fans get such a bad rep is because they have a great team and still show up to games during the 2nd quarter and because 90% of them are either LeBron James fans or holdover Dwyane Wade fans. I honestly believe LeBron James had to start a before game dunk contest to get the crowd to show up early in Miami.

    70. d-mar

      On the other hand, I’ve gone to many, many Knicks games over the past 25 years, and was always amazed at the level of support they got in meaningless end of season games (like during the cap clearing years) I remember specifically the David Lee tip in against the Bobcats, where my son and I and the crowd celebrated like we had just won the title. Or the “defense” chants in the 4th quarter of games that meant absolutely nothing.

      There may be louder arenas, but I don’t know of any fans more loyal than Knicks fans.

    71. EB

      Keniman Shumpwalker: Ha. No, you’re absolutely right. The names on that list shouldn’t inspire any sort of regret. The point that I was making was just that we probably didn’t need to give up all that to get what we got. At the very least, those 2nd round picks and non-guaranteed contracts could have come in handy at some point. I just feel like we were, as is typical, negotiating against ourselves and not utilizing whatever scant leverage we had. Forget the players (although JJ might have helped some last year), 4 2nd round picks and the Greek kid for Felton and a back-up big who never played is a lot. Hell, instead of trading for Camby and luring Sheed out of retirement, we could have had Birdman and K-Mart from the jump (although K-Mart probably needed to sit unemployed for as long as he did before he’d have taken the vets minimum).

      At the time acquiring Camby seemed like a good move. Go look at his stats. The office was brilliant last year. Get over it. Most of the front office is wildly different than it was even a few years ago.

      4 2nd round picks?? People give those things away all the damn time. Go ask any non-hardcore knicks fan about Jeffries, Harrelson and Jerome Jordan and they will have no idea what your are talking about.

      Last offseason we picked up Kidd, Felton, Prigioni, Copeland, Camby (who had the best rebound rate in the league) for peanuts and letting Lin walk which doesn’t seem so bad. Only in retrospect when you know Camby will be hurt all year and Papa breaks out do we regret the decision.

    72. jon abbey

      tickets to pro sporting events are too expensive, most of the best fans don’t go to games, so the fan base talk is all pretty silly IMO.

      the reason Howard doesn’t want to team up in ATL with Paul is that it’s too close to home and he’s not into that (from reports).

    73. EB

      Also, if the front office thinks Papanikolaou is worth a #24 pick or around there then I’d be fine with them trading away the #24. People don’t seem to consider that Papa might be worth near equal value to the poor draft prospects. In effect we’d get a free pick out of it.

    74. Brian Cronin

      Doesn’t NY need to make a first round draft pick this year? So if we do trade the #24 for a 2nd rounder, we will already know who the players involved are because it will have to be after the draft, right?

      While true, I don’t think there’s any NBA team that would make a deal like that and say “Only if Player X is available at #39, or else the trade is off,” since Portland would have had to already been allowed to make the Knicks’ pick as #24, ya know?

    75. thenamestsam

      BigBlueAL:
      The criticism of Miami sports fans is that they are bandwagon fans, not that they dont support their teams.Ive lived down here since 1990 and the 1 team that this city supports 100% and has always supported is the Dolphins.Miami is a football town, even high-school football is pretty popular.

      As a Knicks fan living down here I HATE the fact that the Heat now have such a great team because their fans certainly dont deserve it.Look at the attendance numbers for the Hardaway/Zo teams which put the Heat on the map, they were horrible.Those teams won 4 division titles in a row (including a 61 win season) and nobody down here gave a crap.

      Seems a little odd to accuse them of being bandwagon fans in one breath and in the next criticize them for not supporting a really good team when they had one.

      Anyway my real point is that yes they’re bandwagon fans and they show up late and they leave early but those things are true of fans in every city. Including NYC. But they happen to have the biggest bandwagon right now b/c they’re the best team and so a ton of hate gets thrown their way that’s really just jealousy. Because every other fanbase can tell themselves “Well yeah lots of people show up late to Knicks games but we’re not that great a team. If we were in the finals everyone would show up on time.” Nevermind, that in the early rounds it was half empty at tip.

      If they support their team, as you admit they do, that puts them ahead of an awful lot of fanbases in my book. There’s plenty of crap fanbases out there that deserve way more attention than them – Atlanta, Indiana, hell, even Brooklyn being bottom half in attendance first year in Brooklyn is worrisome. You can’t convince me that the reason Miami’s fans get so much more attention than those is anything other than straight jealousy.

    76. Keniman Shumpwalker

      EB: At the time acquiring Camby seemed like a good move. Go look at his stats. The office was brilliant last year. Get over it. Most of the front office is wildly different than it was even a few years ago.

      4 2nd round picks?? People give those things away all the damn time. Go ask any non-hardcore knicks fan about Jeffries, Harrelson and Jerome Jordan and they will have no idea what your are talking about.

      Last offseason we picked up Kidd, Felton, Prigioni, Copeland, Camby (who had the best rebound rate in the league) for peanuts and letting Lin walk which doesn’t seem so bad. Only in retrospect when you know Camby will be hurt all year and Papa breaks out do we regret the decision.

      fair enough, but shouldn’t we judge roster moves based on how they turned out rather than how we hoped they’d turn out? And giving Camby 3 years was never a good idea.

    77. max fisher-cohen

      First off, I’m thrilled to see someone else wants to overpay Copeland. The last thing we need is to pay another no-upside, extremely 1 dimensional player with one good season under his belt in 7 years of NBA eligibility. We did that last season with Steve Novak and six months later were looking for a way to get the guy off the team. If this team so desperately needs another 3 point shooter who can’t rebound, pass or defend, Grunwald can go knock on Jason Kapono’s door. I’m sure he’s not doing much.

      Copeland was helpful thanks to his situation (a team that had no bigs who could shoot) and his relative obscurity) not because his talents are in any way unique. And who knows if he brings back the hot shooting next season? No one labeled him as a sharpshooter before this season.

      AFA the job Grunwald did, IMO he made $5 wine out of rotten grapes. Kudos to him. It was quite the magic trick. But I’m still not drinking the wine. Dolan wanted to playact like the team was on the precipice of title contention, and Grunwald did a fantastic job of indulging him, but there’s only so much you can do to make a team better when you’re bargaining from such a weak position: no draft picks, no cap space, no youth.

    78. BigBlueAL

      thenamestsam: Seems a little odd to accuse them of being bandwagon fans in one breath and in the next criticize them for not supporting a really good team when they had one.

      Anyway my real point is that yes they’re bandwagon fans and they show up late and they leave early but those things are true of fans in every city. Including NYC. But they happen to have the biggest bandwagon right now b/c they’re the best team and so a ton of hate gets thrown their way that’s really just jealousy. Because every other fanbase can tell themselves “Well yeah lots of people show up late to Knicks games but we’re not that great a team. If we were in the finals everyone would show up on time.” Nevermind, that in the early rounds it was half empty at tip.

      My point was that the city didnt support the Heat when they had great teams with Zo and Hardaway because it wasnt an event or big deal to watch them play. But a big star came to town and national attention was suddenly huge with the Heat and everybody down here jumped on the bandwagon.

      Thats why as a Knick fan who has been a diehard fan since 1990 and whose interest in the team never lessened even when they sucked damn right Im a bit jealous of a city who never supported their team to get to watch the best player in the sport win them championships.

      Now if the Dolphins finally win a Super Bowl again Id be happy for the city of Miami. But if LeBron leaves and the Heat never sniff a championship again I definitely wont be shedding any tears for them lol.

    79. EB

      Keniman Shumpwalker: fairenough,but shouldn’t we judge roster moves basedon how they turned out rather than how we hoped they’d turn out?And giving Camby 3years was never a good idea.

      Well it doesn’t really seem fair to judge the front office’s decisions based on information they didn’t have at the time. If you’re holding a poker hand with 4 kings in it and fold, but it turns out the other guy was holding 4 aces it doesn’t mean you made a good decision. If you had some reason to suspect he had 4 aces then perhaps you have some justification for folding, but I hardly think going all in with a hand of 4 kings could be called a bad move.

    80. thenamestsam

      I agree with a lot of what Max is saying about Cope. Copeland was a lot of fun this year, but Novak was last year as well. I think Copeland’s a better player than Novak – he has more off the bounce game (Note: Many 9th graders have more off the bounce game than Novak) and he might have him beat on the defensive end as well (he’s more “very bad” while Novak is “truly atrocious”) but the reality is that my impressions, like everyone elses, are based on less than 1000 total NBA minutes, of which I’d guess more than half were in total garbage time. Not much of a sample.

      Plus I think because of his newness he gets the benefit of the doubt in ways that might not be appropriate given his overall profile. I think people feel like he still has room to grow, but this is a 29 year old who has been playing professional basketball for six years already. He may improve as he adapts to the NBA speed of the game, but it’s not like he’s never had professional instruction before this year, or never had basketball be his full time job, or has his peak physical years ahead so there are lots of reasons we shouldn’t expect to see the normal rookie-sophomore year progression from him.

      Basically I think Copeland may be a quality NBA bench player. But there are lots of guys I know for sure are quality NBA players playing for the mini midlevel. Hell, Ray Allen is paying for the mini-mid level and that’s the team we want to be competing with. I wouldn’t mind having Cope back, but I’m not sure it’s as make or break as some seem to think.

    81. BigBlueAL

      Yeah, Cope was a great feel-good story and therefore really easy to root for. But no way in hell should the Knicks blow their entire mini-midlevel just to keep him.

      I would definitely be happy if he returns but losing him wont exactly be a huge blow.

    82. Z

      And before it was Novak it was Shawne Williams. Three in three years = a trend, and there’s no reason to pay (a la Novak) when yet another guy is sitting in the lost-and-found bin. The offensive system makes guys who can shoot open three pointers look a lot more valuable than they really are in this league.

      EB: Well it doesn’t really seem fair to judge the front office’s decisions based on information they didn’t have at the time.

      The Front Office didn’t know Camby was old?

    83. BigBlueAL

      Im pretty sure Im in the minority here but I think Camby will be a very useful player next season.

    84. thenamestsam

      BigBlueAL: My point was that the city didnt support the Heat when they had great teams with Zo and Hardaway because it wasnt an event or big deal to watch them play.But a big star came to town and national attention was suddenly huge with the Heat and everybody down here jumped on the bandwagon.

      Thats why as a Knick fan who has been a diehard fan since 1990 and whose interest in the team never lessened even when they sucked damn right Im a bit jealous of a city who never supported their team to get to watch the best player in the sport win them championships.

      Now if the Dolphins finally win a Super Bowl again Id be happy for the city of Miami.But if LeBron leaves and the Heat never sniff a championship again I definitely wont be shedding any tears for them lol.

      I think we’re on the same page. I certainly wouldn’t mind if Lebron leaves them in the lurch and they can win 5 games a year for the rest of eternity as far as I’m concerned. Just pointing out that I find the constant mention of them as “Worst Fans in the League Exhibit 1A” tiresome when there are plenty of fans who aren’t supporting their teams AT ALL in spite of some success.

    85. thenamestsam

      BigBlueAL:
      Im pretty sure Im in the minority here but I think Camby will be a very useful player next season.

      Man I love the optimism but when old big guys start with the constant injury problems they don’t usually go back the other direction. And Marcus is 39. That’s a hope for the best but expect the worst situation in my book.

    86. BigBlueAL

      thenamestsam: Man I love the optimism but when old big guys start with the constant injury problems they don’t usually go back the other direction. And Marcus is 39. That’s a hope for the best but expect the worst situation in my book.

      Hey as a Knick fan I always expect the worst. But last season has given me hope that we can start being optimistic again and having it actually work out.

    87. KnickfaninNJ

      yellowboy90:
      pelicans going after Cope. Indy too.

      I’d like to keep Cope, but honestly I’m just happy for him. It’s nice for him more than one team is interested.

    88. MeloDrama

      Eh, I mean it depends on the overall price of course, but I think someone’s getting a nice catch with Copeland. The months he got consistent burn, he scored it EXTREMELY well. He’s got an accurate shot and a ridiculously quick release.

      If he’s gonna draw like 6 million a season or something nuts then yeah, that’s excessive. If he draws like 4-4.5 a year for 4 years though, that’s a good price and one I wish NY could match.

    89. ess-dog

      Re: Kostas, I do that trade in a heartbeat. You have just as good a shot at getting a player at #37 as you do #24 (just look back at last year’s draft), and Kostas is actually playing better than our draft options in a tougher league. Plus, he’s a year or two older than a lot of these guys, so he can contribute more immediately.

    90. Frank

      BigBlueAL:
      Yeah, Cope was a great feel-good story and therefore really easy to root for.But no way in hell should the Knicks blow their entire mini-midlevel just to keep him.

      I would definitely be happy if he returns but losing him wont exactly be a huge blow.

      I think you guys are crazy. Cope had a usage of about 25 and a TS of 58.5. Do you know the only guys who satisfied those criteria in 12-13 were LBJ, Harden, Durant, Curry, Tony Parker, and (interestingly enough) Amare. And that (in an admittedly small sample) his numbers only got better in the playoffs against two of the best Defenses in the league? He carried this offense at times when everyone was hurt this year.

    91. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, I am with Frank here. Cope is a lot better than he’s getting credit for. There’s a very good reason these teams want him. I liked Extra E, but Cope has a lot more talent than Extra E ever did.

    92. ess-dog

      Yeah, but his defense is abysmal. It’s hard to have him, Amare, and Novak all at the 3/4 and Amare and/or Novak aren’t going anywhere (unfortunately.)

      I guess Kostas would effectively replace Cope, if he played at all.

      Although once Chris Smith becomes the starter at the point}}}{{{(keyboard explodes)

    93. BigBlueAL

      Hold up, when some of us were calling for Cope to get more playing time when freaking James White was starting and Kurt Thomas was getting playing time most people here were saying (including you Brian!!) that he was just a player who padded his stats during garbage time and isnt good enough to get playing time against good teams. Now it would be a huge blow if he leaves?? WTF??

    94. DRed

      Cope was a very good scorer last year, but he compounds his terrible defense with awful work on the glass. He’s a great story and a fun guy to root for, but it would not be the end of the world if he got paid somewhere else.

    95. Brian Cronin

      Hold up, when some of us were calling for Cope to get more playing time when freaking James White was starting and Kurt Thomas was getting playing time most people here were saying (including you Brian!!) that he was just a player who padded his stats during garbage time and isnt good enough to get playing time against good teams. Now it would be a huge blow if he leaves?? WTF??

      He improved a lot after that. And began to produce against real defenses. Even then, I said that I thought he would improve (he had too much offensive talent not to), I just thought it’d be next season not later in last season. I clearly underestimated his developmental time!

    96. bidiong

      If cope gets paid, good for him. If we get him back cheap, good for us. Let the man make some money. I like him, but we have to get Prigs back.

    97. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: I think you guys are crazy. Cope had a usage of about 25 and a TS of 58.5. Do you know the only guys who satisfied those criteria in 12-13 were LBJ, Harden, Durant, Curry, Tony Parker, and (interestingly enough) Amare.And that (in an admittedly small sample) his numbers only got better in the playoffs against two of the best Defenses in the league? He carried this offense at times when everyone was hurt this year.

      Frank, you make a lot of sense here, but remember that this is Knickerblogger and you should distrust those fancy stats you’re wheeling out.

      His Precious didn’t put up those numbers, and we have to explain that. There is no way that Chris Copeland was more productive than Carmelo Anthony, right?

    98. EB

      Z: Hey as a Knick fan I always expect the worst. But last season has given me hope that we can start being optimistic again and having it actually work out.

      Except if you look at their wildly different usage rates where Cope is about 5% above average while Novak and Shawne are well under. And If you just watch the games Cope does more than stand in the corner and shoot. He has some moves to the basket, some post game and can work off the pick and roll. Literally all Shawne and Novak did were stand and the corner and wait.

    99. EB

      Z:
      And before it was Novak it was Shawne Williams. Three in three years = a trend, and there’s no reason to pay (a la Novak) when yet another guy is sitting in the lost-and-found bin. The offensive system makes guys who can shoot open three pointers look a lot more valuable than they really are in this league.

      The Front Office didn’t know Camby was old?

      Old but EXTREMELY productive and without an injury history that would indicate that he would play as little as he did. Measure that against 2 2nd round picks and the warts don’t seem so bad. How many 2nd round picks can anyone even name from last year? Who were the 10 people drafted ahead of Papa? And what did they accomplish over last season?

    100. max fisher-cohen

      Shawne Williams in 2010/11 (per 36 minutes):

      12.4 points, 6.4 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, 1.1 steals, 1.3 TOs, 55.8 TS%, 0.89 WS/48

      Chris Copeland in 12/13

      20.3 points, 5.0 rebounds, 0.5 blocks, 0.7 steals, 2.1 TOs, 58.3 TS%, 0.117 WS/48

      I don’t see a huge difference. One guy had the muscle and agility to rebound and defend at a competent level, the other was a more adept scorer. Copeland’s season was a bit better but then Copeland had a better team around him and thus got a lot more open shots.

      I watch Copeland play, and I see Tim Thomas, John Wallace, Michael Beasley. The only difference I see is that he’s not being asked to be a creator whereas Beasley was (or at least believes he is). The guy dribbles with his head down, has no athleticism, and lacks the body to defend PFs and the speed to SFs.

      Now, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe he really is a poor man’s Glen Rice and I’m overreacting to how awkward he looks on the court rather than just focusing on the numbers, but I’d be happy to put money on him never playing over 15 MPG on a playoff team, just like Novak.

    101. Brian Cronin

      I don’t see a huge difference.

      Eight more points per 36 on better TS% and you don’t see a huge difference? Come on, Max, that’s silly.

      Cope is just flat out a very good offensive player. That’s why teams are trying to sign him away from the Knicks. Notice that Extra E had few suitors and the Knicks signed Novak before anyone else even tried to get him. Cope is an in demand player because there are not many players in the NBA who are as good as Cope is offensively.

    102. BigBlueAL

      As someone who was a big supporter of Cope during the season (before everyone jumped on his bandwagon) I feel kinda bad for not thinking the Knicks need to go all out to sign him.

      Thing is if they have to use the full mini-mid on him and pay him 3 mil per year over the next few years will he actually get playing time?? Novak will be making 4 mil per year over the next 3 years too. If Amar’e and Camby are healthy to start the season and they add another big man where does that leave guys like Cope and Novak?? Not to mention if they draft a SG/SF plus JR returns.

      Like I mentioned earlier I hope he comes back but not sure he is worth 3 mil per year for the next few years to this team especially if they (hopefully) plan on having cap space in 2015.

    103. max fisher-cohen

      EB: Old but EXTREMELY productive and without an injury history that would indicate that he would play as little as he did. Measure that against 2 2nd round picks and the warts don’t seem so bad. How many 2nd round picks can anyone even name from last year? Who were the 10 people drafted ahead of Papa? And what did they accomplish over last season?

      I did some research into this last summer when we signed all our ancient players. I wanted to see the % of players who “drop off the map” each season at each age. I defined dropping off the map as going below 500 MP and never surpassing it again in their careers. About 10% of 29 year olds drop off the map in their 30 year old seasons. 25% of 34 year olds drop off in their 35 year old season, and 35% of 38 year olds.

      These are guys who go from rotation players to nobodies. Between Kidd, Thomas, Wallace, Camby, Martin, and Prigioni, we shouldn’t have been surprised to lose a bunch of guys. Had Kidd and Prigioni been the ones to disappear this year (yes, Kidd disappeared in February, but we did get well over 500 productive minutes from him), this past season might have looked a lot different. We were lucky it was our more replaceable bench guys who ended up fading away.

    104. Frank

      Novak got 65% of his offense on spot-ups. Literally a one trick pony. Cope had about 15% each in iso, post-up, and PNR, and about 33% from spot up. He was above average (top 100) in iso and post-up, and elite in PNR (11th best PPP) and spot-up (27th). He is far from a one trick offensive pony. And his defense, while not good, s not totally abysmal like Novak.

      A comp that is much closer than Shawne is actually Gallinari. Similarly awful rebounding. Gallo has double the assist rate but cope is more efficient offensively.

      Now if cope walks, I’m not opposed to Shawne coming back. He’d give some approximation of what Cope did last year. But cope is a much superior offensive player.

    105. BigBlueAL

      max fisher-cohen: I did some research into this last summer when we signed all our ancient players. I wanted to see the % of players who “drop off the map” each season at each age. I defined dropping off the map as going below 500 MP and never surpassing it again in their careers. About 10% of 29 year olds drop off the map in their 30 year old seasons. 25% of 34 year olds drop off in their 35 year old season, and 35% of 38 year olds.

      These are guys who go from rotation players to nobodies. Between Kidd, Thomas, Wallace, Camby, Martin, and Prigioni, we shouldn’t have been surprised to lose a bunch of guys. Had Kidd and Prigioni been the ones to disappear this year (yes, Kidd disappeared in February, but we did get well over 500 productive minutes from him), this past season might have looked a lot different. We were lucky it was our more replaceable bench guys who ended up fading away.

      But all the old guys signed were basically replaceable bench guys. The top 4 guys in minutes played were 27, 28, 28 and 30 yo. That doesnt include Shump who if healthy from the start wouldve been in the top 4/5 too. Novak was 6th in minutes played and he is 29. Cope was 28 and finished 9th in minutes played. The only old guys in the Top 10 in minutes played was Kidd and Prigs. Amar’e was 11th.

    106. Brian Cronin

      Now if cope walks, I’m not opposed to Shawne coming back. He’d give some approximation of what Cope did last year. But cope is a much superior offensive player.

      Yeah, I agree. It’s not even like I think Cope leaving is the end of the world or anything, I just think that his skills are clearly worth at least $3 million a year and it is too bad that the Knicks won’t be able to pay him it. The Knicks will be worse off than they would be if they had Cope on the team next year.

    107. BigBlueAL

      Knicks dont need Shawne Williams. Extra E was fun that season but he has been hot garbage ever since. Im hoping if they dont draft a PG (at this point if Larkin doesnt fall I dont think they should draft a PG) they draft a SG/SF who can basically replace Cope. Although obviously the difference is Cope can masquerade as a PF but his shooting can be replicated with hopefully someone who can defend better and more importantly can defend wing players.

    108. max fisher-cohen

      @BBA

      It wasn’t an argument about the Knicks failures, just Camby’s difficulty staying healthy.

      Brian Cronin: Eight more points per 36 on better TS% and you don’t see a huge difference? Come on, Max, that’s silly.

      Cope is just flat out a very good offensive player. That’s why teams are trying to sign him away from the Knicks. Notice that Extra E had few suitors and the Knicks signed Novak before anyone else even tried to get him. Cope is an in demand player because there are not many players in the NBA who are as good as Cope is offensively.

      Yeah, he’s a good offensive player, WAY better than Williams offensively, but WAY worse than him defensively. Williams averaged 8 fewer points and notably worse efficiency, but in every other stat Williams is better. If we’re scoring out of ten, then I see Copeland as an 7 on offense and a 1 on defense. I see Williams as 4 on offense, 4 on defense. Adds up to the same thing.

      Copeland is like Nate Robinson in that he’ll wow you with great scoring except while Nate can defend PGs sometimes, Copeland can’t defend anyone. Seriously, Synergy puts him 366th best player in terms of PPP defense! I didn’t even know Synergy ranked that many players…

    109. BigBlueAL

      max fisher-cohen:
      @BBA

      It wasn’t an argument about the Knicks failures, just Camby’s difficulty staying healthy.

      Well yeah cant argue with that then lol. Im hoping Camby stays healthy next season and can be productive but obviously anybody his age the odds are against it.

    110. Spree8nyk8

      BigBlueAL:
      draft a SG/SF who can basically replace Cope.Although obviously the difference is Cope can masquerade as a PF but his shooting can be replicated with hopefully someone who can defend better and more importantly can defend wing players.

      Wouldn’t that Greek kid do exactly that?

    111. BigBlueAL

      Spree8nyk8: Wouldn’t that Greek kid do exactly that?

      Maybe?? I dunno but hey if they trade for him thats the type of player I would like and if the Knicks are trying to get him back then I assume they feel the same way I do.

      To me its simple, if Melo is going to remain starting at PF then they must get a SF who can start and shoot/defend. Shump needs to move to SG. Love the 2 PG lineups but at this point would rather just have Prigs (or Larkin!!) come off the bench and have Shump and a true SF starting with Melo at PF.

    112. JK47

      The Knicks were 3rd in offense, 18th in defense.

      Should we really be worried about losing Cope, who is one of the worst defensive players on the roster? Bring me some dudes who can play defense.

      In the loss to Indy in game 6, the Knicks allowed the Pacers to rack up a 126.8 offensive rating. In the game 4 loss, it was 109.8. In the game 1 loss it was 112.1.

      The Pacers had a shitty offense last year, and the Knicks made them look like an offensive powerhouse. If the Knicks continue to play mediocre-at-best defense, they’re not gonna be real relevant whether Chris Copeland is on the roster or not.

    113. Brian Cronin

      Maybe?? I dunno but hey if they trade for him thats the type of player I would like and if the Knicks are trying to get him back then I assume they feel the same way I do.

      To me its simple, if Melo is going to remain starting at PF then they must get a SF who can start and shoot/defend. Shump needs to move to SG. Love the 2 PG lineups but at this point would rather just have Prigs (or Larkin!!) come off the bench and have Shump and a true SF starting with Melo at PF.

      I definitely want Shump at the 2, as well. Key to the whole defense, I think.

    114. massive

      Brian Cronin: I definitely want Shump at the 2, as well. Key to the whole defense, I think.

      The key to the defense is Chandler. He needs to remember how to play it again or get traded.

    115. JK47

      massive: The key to the defense is Chandler. He needs to remember how to play it again or get traded.

      Maybe somebody could teach him this “jumping straight up” thing I’ve heard so much about.

    116. massive

      Actually I take that back. He did refuse to play defense this year, but his Tyson Tip-Outs© were huge in some games this past season. We just need him to anchor our defense again. Along with Shump, we should have two of the 5 best defenders at their positions next season.

    117. massive

      I don’t believe they let Hibbert do that all playoffs. It’s not okay to jump straight up and batter your opponent while he’s in the air.

      JK47: Maybe somebody could teach him this “jumping straight up” thing I’ve heard so much about.

    118. jon abbey

      massive:
      his Tyson Tip-Outs© were huge in some games this past season.

      it looked like teams finally scouted this move a lot better late in the season and in the playoffs, as the majority of the few he managed to tip out in the playoffs were intercepted and led to fast breaks (including a huge one in the OT against Boston that led to an open Terry 3).

    119. Brian Cronin

      Magic and Clippers discussing a Bledsoe/Afflalo deal. Wow, that would be perfect for the Clippers, wouldn’t it?

    120. massive

      Speaking of trades, if we lose Copeland, hopefully it will be in a sign and trade so that we can get back an asset.

      But yeah, Afflalo to the Clippers would make a ton of sense. They should target Paul Pierce, too. Paul, Afflalo, Pierce, Griffin, and (insert average center’s name here) could win the West.

    121. yellowboy90

      Teams do not need to sign and trade for Cope because they can out bid the Knicks. It would be nice if team would call about Novak though.

    122. Frank

      yellowboy90:
      Teams do not need to sign and trade for Cope because they can out bid the Knicks. It would be nice if team would call about Novak though.

      Not totally true – a team that either doesn’t want to use the full MLE and/or wants to use their mini-MLE on another player might be willing to S&T for Cope. For instance, if OKC wants Cope but also wants to use the mini-MLE on, say, Martell Webster (just picking names randomly), they could get Cope in S&T and get both players despite not having any more exceptions.

    123. Keniman Shumpwalker

      EB: Well it doesn’t really seem fair to judge the front office’s decisions based on information they didn’t have at the time. If you’re holding a poker hand with 4 kings in it and fold, but it turns out the other guy was holding 4 aces it doesn’t mean you made a good decision. If you had some reason to suspect he had 4 aces then perhaps you have some justification for folding, but I hardly think going all in with a hand of 4 kings could be called a bad move.

      If you’re holding 4 Kings then the odds are definitely in your favor that you have a winning hand and a smart play. Even if it turns out that someone is holding a trump hand, you still made the “right” play.
      That’s a little different than the Camby situation though. The FO knew Camby was old and carried a significant injury history and risk. It seems doubly foolish when, with the benefit of hindsight, we know that there were at least 2 guys out there (Birdman and K-Mart) who could have provided a reasonable facsimile of Camby’s best-case scenario for a fraction of the cost in years and dollars. You might say that those dollars are meaningless, but not having them might have allowed us to get under the apron and have more freedom to pursue S&Ts.
      Also, given the age and injury history of our other bigs, I think it’s clear now that we shouldn’t have loaded the roster with that many old guys who tend to get hurt.

      Look, I think Grunwald has done a great job. He constructed a 54 win team and that’s great. I’m comfortable with him at the helm and realize that Woody had a lot of influence on some of these roster decisions. But I’m not going to give him a free pass for some of the head scratching moves he made just because they seemed like a good idea at the time.

    124. EB

      Camby had two elite skills, rebounding and shot blocking, and you’d rather have two 2nd round draft picks? The chances Camby stays healthy are better than either 2nd round pick doing anything other than sitting on his ass in the D-league as a replacement level player. The chance that either of those players could meaningfully contribute to this team is approximately ZERO.

      There is some opportunity cost but since we got Kmart anyway and people with elite skills are difficult to find I don’t see how you can complain. The risk/reward was worth it

    125. Keniman Shumpwalker

      EB:
      Camby had two elite skills, rebounding and shot blocking, and you’d rather have two 2nd round draft picks? The chances Camby stays healthy are better than either 2nd round pick doing anything other than sitting on his ass in the D-league as a replacement level player. The chance that either of those players could meaningfully contribute to this team is approximately ZERO.

      There is some opportunity cost but since we got Kmart anyway and people with elite skills are difficult to find I don’t see how you can complain. The risk/reward was worth it

      I’d rather have two second round draft picks as assets in potential trades AS WELL AS not having the money and years committed to Camby. Given the other moves we made (read: old, injury prone bigs), I don’t believe the risk/reward was actually worth it.

    126. Frank

      Keniman Shumpwalker: I’d rather have two second round draft picks as assets in potential trades AS WELL AS not having the money and years committed to Camby. Given the other moves we made (read: old, injury prone bigs), I don’t believe the risk/reward was actually worth it.

      2nd round picks are basically throw-ins in most trades. Not sure they make much of a difference in the long-term. OKC, a very good drafting team, was willing to “throw in” a 2nd for Ronnie Brewer of all people.

      Overall i’m perfectly fine with price paid for Camby and Felton, both in terms of draft picks/assets traded and in yearly salary. One reasonable criticism of those two deals could be the years that were given — Camby thankfully has a nonguaranteed year in 14-15, but Felton having a full guarantee for 15-16 is crippling for a potential rebuild-on-the-fly once Tyson and Amare’s contracts expire.

    127. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Frank: 2nd round picks are basically throw-ins in most trades. Not sure they make much of a difference in the long-term. OKC, a very good drafting team, was willing to “throw in” a 2nd for Ronnie Brewer of all people.

      Overall i’m perfectly fine with price paid for Camby and Felton, both in terms of draft picks/assets traded and in yearly salary. One reasonable criticism of those two deals could be the years that were given — Camby thankfully has a nonguaranteed year in 14-15, but Felton having a full guarantee for 15-16 is crippling for a potential rebuild-on-the-fly once Tyson and Amare’s contracts expire.

      You’re right…but I can’t help but wishing we still had them to throw in to a deal of some sort. Those throw-ins can be pretty valuable when filling out the role players on your roster. As I said earlier, in a vacuum, we didn’t give up too much…but given our roster construction, what else was available, and the years/dollars committed, I can’t sit here and say it was a great move. All that said, it’s not like I feel that the Camby acquisition was the reason we didn’t go further in the playoffs, just a deal I wish we hadn’t pulled the trigger on. Now, if Camby comes in next year and gives us exactly what we expected from him this past season…I will happily eat crow and tell you all how it tastes.

    128. Brian Cronin

      Not totally true – a team that either doesn’t want to use the full MLE and/or wants to use their mini-MLE on another player might be willing to S&T for Cope. For instance, if OKC wants Cope but also wants to use the mini-MLE on, say, Martell Webster (just picking names randomly), they could get Cope in S&T and get both players despite not having any more exceptions.

      I was going to reply the exact same thing (although I forget which team I was going to use as an example – not OKC, but I forget who), but thinking more about it, that really doesn’t work since it would require Cope to sign for just the mini-MLE, and if he’s willing to sign for that, the Knicks would just sign him themselves, ya know? The issue here is that Cope is going to get an offer sheet for more than the mini-MLE, thus removing the sign and trade option from the Knicks’ arsenal. So I think yellowboy90 is actually on point here (but only because it looks like Cope will, indeed, get offers bigger than the mini-MLE).

    129. Frank

      Brian Cronin: I was going to reply the exact same thing (although I forget which team I was going to use as an example – not OKC, but I forget who), but thinking more about it, that really doesn’t work since it would require Cope to sign for just the mini-MLE, and if he’s willing to sign for that, the Knicks would just sign him themselves, ya know?

      well, that all depends on the compensation coming from the other side. Would you take Perry Jones or Jeremy Lamb + filler for Cope? Or Sefalosha? Not saying that OKC would want to do any deal like this, but one can imagine it happening if a team liked Cope enough AND also wanted to use their mini-MLE on someone else.

    130. Brian Cronin

      well, that all depends on the compensation coming from the other side. Would you take Perry Jones or Jeremy Lamb + filler for Cope? Or Sefalosha? Not saying that OKC would want to do any deal like this, but one can imagine it happening if a team liked Cope enough AND also wanted to use their mini-MLE on someone else.

      Right, but the key is that it isn’t available since teams will be giving Cope more than the mini-MLE and the Knicks can’t do a sign and trade for Cope at the mini-MLE is he signs an offer sheet for more than the mini-MLE.

    131. Frank

      Brian Cronin: Right, but the key is that it isn’t available since teams will be giving Cope more than the mini-MLE and the Knicks can’t do a sign and trade for Cope at the mini-MLE is he signs an offer sheet for more than the mini-MLE.

      I’ll believe the hype about his offers when I see it… I have a hard time believing he’ll get big offers. Hope I’m not wrong.

      But I do think the Knicks should go and offer him the full mini-MLE on day 1 of FA. Not sure what that would mean for Prigs though. Prigioni probably only wants to play another year or two, and presumably has made a lot of $ already, so maybe is just looking for the best situation.

    132. maxwell_3g

      Brian Cronin: Well, that’s it for Cope, then. Fuck. That sucks. I guess there’s a chance he chooses to stick with the Knicks, but I guess it depends on how much more than $3 million New Orleans offers. $3.5, I could see him not signing that. $4 million? He’s got to sign that.

      get real. cope is not getting 4 mill per

    133. maxwell_3g

      Keniman Shumpwalker: You’re right…but I can’t help but wishing we still had them to throw in to a deal of some sort. Those throw-ins can be pretty valuable when filling out the role players on your roster. As I said earlier, in a vacuum, we didn’t give up too much…but given our roster construction, what else was available, and the years/dollars committed, I can’t sit here and say it was a great move. All that said, it’s not like I feel that the Camby acquisition was the reason we didn’t go further in the playoffs, just a deal I wish we hadn’t pulled the trigger on. Now, if Camby comes in next year and gives us exactly what we expected from him this past season…I will happily eat crow and tell you all how it tastes.

      so you are upset that we just threw 2nd rounders in previous deals because you want to have them so that you can just throw them into deals now???

    134. Brian Cronin

      get real. cope is not getting 4 mill per

      How is that out of the question when it seems like he’ll easily get $3 million? It’s not a big difference.

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