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Monday, July 28, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jun 11 2013)

  • [New York Post] Proud King should Melo out on block (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 03:09:51 -0500)
    LeBron James’ block on 6-foot-11 Spurs forward Tiago Splitter in the fourth quarter Sunday was monstrous: pure power, grace, athleticism, brilliance. It was one of the best, cleanest blocks I have seen live.
    But James was still taking bows on the interview podium for a rejection that basically was accomplished…

  • [New York Times] Satisfied but Shaken, Spurs Bring NBA Finals Home (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 07:44:29 GMT)
    On a day of rest at the NBA Finals, Tim Duncan had work to do.    

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Basketball: Mookie Blaylock Surrenders to Authorities (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 04:41:05 GMT)
    After leaving a hospital, the former N.B.A. All-Star Mookie Blaylock surrendered to the authorities and is in jail, charged with vehicular homicide in a crash south of Atlanta.    

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Basketball: Grizzlies’ Lionel Hollins Is Out (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 04:30:06 GMT)
    Lionel Hollins said the Memphis Grizzlies told him they would not renew his contract as the coach, after the team made the Western Conference finals.    

  • [New York Times] Detroit Pistons Hire Maurice Cheeks as New Coach (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 03:56:26 GMT)
    Maurice Cheeks is getting a third shot to be an NBA head coach.    

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Low-Key Player Thrives With Low-Key Spurs (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 02:31:14 GMT)
    Danny Green does a lot of different things well, which means he’s fitting right in with San Antonio.    

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Billups Honored as a Top Teammate (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 02:26:01 GMT)
    Chauncey Billups was voted the first winner of the Twyman/Stokes award, named for N.B.A. Hall of Famers who shared a remarkable bond.    

  • [New York Times] Hollins Will Not Return as Head Coach, Say Grizzlies (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 01:14:18 GMT)
    Memphis Grizzlies head coach Lionel Hollins will not be offered a new contract and is no longer with the club, the National Basketball Association team said on Monday.    

  • [New York Times] Jason Kidd Meets With Nets About Coaching job (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 00:51:41 GMT)
    Jason Kidd, who played 19 years but has not coached, proposed adding veteran coaches to his bench as a way to offset his inexperience.    

  • [New York Times] Cheeks Named Pistons’ New Coach (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 00:29:19 GMT)
    The Detroit Pistons have named Maurice Cheeks as their new head coach, signing him to a multi-year contract, the National Basketball Association team said on Monday.    

  • [New York Times] Lionel Hollins Out as Memphis Grizzlies Coach (Tue, 11 Jun 2013 00:17:38 GMT)
    The Memphis Grizzlies have decided to part with the winningest coach in the franchise’s history, telling Lionel Hollins they will not be renewing his contract as head coach coming off their first trip to the Western Conference finals.    

  • 66 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jun 11 2013)

    1. Hubert

      I don’t know where the conversation is going to go today so I’ll repost this here:

      flossy: That trade is terrible for us….Saving one year of his salary doesn’t help much (we’ll still be at or near the salary cap come next summer).

      See, I think getting out of $24.5 mil in 2014/15 does help us a lot, and that would be my primary reason for doing the trade.

      But I don’t think that trade makes us worse next year. I understand wanting to hold the Amar’e lottery ticket and seeing if works out next year. But if you accept the fact that it’s most likely going to be a bust (and let’s be honest, Amar’e isn’t likely to play half a season without getting hurt next year), then what we’re getting back isn’t terrible because at the very least we get a player in Okafor who will contribute all year. Having him to back up Tyson is potentially huge. It means we don’t have to use any of our mid-level on Martin or another backup, so we can use it on Prigioni (and maybe Copeland). It means we don’t have to hope Marcus Camby gives us anything (he won’t).

      There are some mild benefits to it.

      It’s basically, what would you rather have:

      1. An overqualified backup to our most important defensive player + the mini-MLE flexibility to sign Copeland and Prigioni.

      2. The Amar’e lottery ticket + the problem of only having the mini-MLE when you need to bring back Pablo and sign a backup C, and you’d like to bring back Copeland.

      I think the Amar’e lottery ticket is a bust so I’d do that deal. I can understand wanting to hope we win the Amar’e lottery, I just think it’s unlikely.

    2. Hubert

      One thing we don’t really talk about enough is the problems we will face just bringing back what we have.

      Prigioni, or a capable replacement, is a must.

      Martin, or a capable replacement, is a must.

      We need both of those things before we need Amar’e Stoudemire. If we end up with a healthy Amar’e but lose one of those positions, I think we’ve taken a step back.

      It would be nice to not lose Copeland, he showed promise. But we have to prioritize the other two.

      I just don’t think either Martin or Prigioni are going to need to settle for the veteran’s minimum. So we have to choose one and sacrifice the other, and hope Grunwald can pull his magic again. We’ve been a little spoiled by his recent success. Usually when you go to the scrap heap, you get guys who suck.

    3. yellowboy90

      Archie Goodwin is falling fast. Would he be a nice second round pick up if the Knicks get a 2nd rd pick?

      I really hope the Knicks can get two players from this draft. If the Pgs are taken I would like the Knicks to get 2 of Crabbe, Bullock, Muscala, and maybe Green.

    4. Brian Cronin

      Archie Goodwin was a great comic book writer in the 1960s and 1970s, so I will admit that I’m partial to his namesake. ;)

    5. yellowboy90

      Brian Cronin:
      Archie Goodwin was a great comic book writer in the 1960s and 1970s, so I will admit that I’m partial to his namesake. ;)

      they had comic books back then? :)

    6. Glew

      Hubert- I think that trade gives us a more consistent rotation but slightly lowers our ceiling and doesn’t really address a big concern which is playoff scoring against teams like bulls/pacers. Although the odds of amare being an all NBA player or even a 6th man of the year candidate and healthy for 70ish games and playoffs is very slim. It is essentially our only hope of taking down a title

    7. bidiong

      I’m willing to ride with Amaré for one more year. Hopefully the two knee surgeries cleared him up for one good run with a healthy Melo.

    8. Hubert

      I don’t think Amar’e is the answer to our playoff scoring problems, and any question he answers creates a new question on defense.

      And you really, really, cannot count on him to be there in the playoffs. You are better off, IMO, building a team that in no way relies on the health of Amar’e Stoudemire for anything.

      I really like the team we had this past year and I think with better health from Tyson, better coaching from Woodson, and better play from Anthony we would have beaten Indiana and taken Miami to 7 and had a chance.

      I think it’s reasonable to expect better health from Tyson (especially if we had a quality backup C all year). I think Woodson is learning from his failures (albeit REALLY slowly). And I think Carmelo Anthony can have a better postseason.

      So I would go all in with what we had and give the Amar’e lottery ticket to someone else. Addition by subtraction. And I drank RuRu’s Amar’e kool-aid all year, for the record. I believed in it. I still believe we could be great when Amar’e is healthy.

      But expecting him to be healthy for an entire postseason is about as sound a strategy as going into the postseason expecting JR Smith to post a .600 TS%. You can wish it to happen all you want, but you have no sound reason to expect it.

    9. lavor postell

      Hubert:
      So I would go all in with what we had and give the Amar’e lottery ticket to someone else.Addition by subtraction.And I drank RuRu’s Amar’e kool-aid all year, for the record.I believed in it.I still believe we could be great when Amar’e is healthy.

      But expecting him to be healthy for an entire postseason is about as sound a strategy as going into the postseason expecting JR Smith to post a .600 TS%.You can wish it to happen all you want, but you have no sound reason to expect it.

      Why would you want to go all in on a strategy that has not worked for us or the Melo Nuggets? Okafor and Ariza actually might make us a better regular season team simply by solidifying our rotation, but come playoff time we know for a fact that Melo as the primary shot creator with JR playing second fiddle is a losing strategy. I’d rather roll with Amar’e for a year and if that fails again which is probably will we have a massive trade chip in 2014-15 or we can let it expire and go all in on Kevin Love.

      The only chance this team has of getting a title over the next 2 seasons is if we can find a more efficient secondary shot creator which is exactly what Amar’e brings to the table. We actually were not god awful this season with STAT in terms of our level of play, but Kidd JR and Felton could not hit anything from the perimeter during that time and Melo was clearly playing hurt. We became the number one rebounding team in the league which has been posted many times by several people. His defense had lapses, but it was passable given that his TS% was 60+. Also from what I remember the Melo-STAT-Tyson units beasted and posted very nice plus/minus numbers.

      Having said this I can see the logic of making that trade if you know Melo would opt out and take a paycut so the Knicks could sign Lebron. We can all hope correct?

    10. Hubert

      lavor postell: Why would you want to go all in on a strategy that has not worked for us or the Melo Nuggets?

      Because as flawed as it is, I think it’s the best strategy available to us.

      But I am not advocating this:

      lavor postell: but come playoff time we know for a fact that Melo as the primary shot creator with JR playing second fiddle is a losing strategy.

      In my scenario, Tyson Chandler is healthy because Okafor’s presence all year limited his minutes and JR is NOT the 2nd option, the Felton/Chandler pick and roll is. JR should be a 6th man who ACTUALLY IS the 6th man, not the 2nd.

      The Felton/Chandler pick and roll died a sudden death in March and that doomed us. If Tyson was actually a threat to catch a lob or put back a Felton miss like he had been all year that would have changed everything. I don’t think we need to conclude that our strategy was poor just because we lost. There were factors in there, factors that can go our way.

      You can’t just say “Melo as the primary shot creator” is a losing strategy because we lost. It’s a losing strategy when Chandler looks like a zombie and his idiot coach is playing two defensive bigs and he has a torn labrum and Shumpert & Prigioni aren’t playing enough, and etc, etc etc. Those things can change, though.

      lavor postell:
      Having said this I can see the logic of making that trade if you know Melo would opt out and take a paycut so the Knicks could sign Lebron.We can all hope correct?

      It’s a better lottery ticket than Amar’e Stoudemire’s health.

    11. jon abbey

      a good center can totally shut down the Felton/Chandler pick and roll, like Asik and Noah did earlier in the year. I’d rather rely on the streakiness of JR, honestly.

    12. Brian Cronin

      I think it is too soon to write JR off as a perennial no-show in the playoffs. I mean, sure, you can’t be confident in him coming through anymore, but I don’t think it is a no-brainer that he’ll disappoint again next year.

    13. Hubert

      jon abbey:
      a good center can totally shut down the Felton/Chandler pick and roll, like Asik and Noah did earlier in the year. I’d rather rely on the streakiness of JR, honestly.

      There are like 4 good centers, though. And yes, we’ll probably have to play one of them. But we played probably the best one (and when he gets that whistle, he ain’t “probably”) and I still think we should have won that series.

      That’s no reason to abandon something effective.

    14. Nick C.

      Brian Cronin:
      I think it is too soon to write JR off as a perennial no-show in the playoffs. I mean, sure, you can’t be confident in him coming through anymore, but I don’t think it is a no-brainer that he’ll disappoint again next year.

      How much more time do you want to wait. It has been five years since he shot over 37%. His TSP has been under .500 the last three years and the previous three was .523, .558 and a mindblowing .681 (in only 4 games). He is the basketball equivalent of Nick Swisher or so it seems.

      At any rate, I think in the next year or two the Amare gamble is the best shot. But this team really needs to start drafting and drafting well. Prigs, I love, Cope I wanted to play, but If we are looking at them or K-Mart as keys then the team in doomed.

    15. Hubert

      How are people expecting this offseason to go? I’m just curious.

      Forget JR, his decision exists on it’s own.

      Between Prigioni, Martin, and Copeland, I’m expecting to only be able to keep one. I like Copeland a lot but he’s the most expendable.

      Are people optimistic that we’ll be able to sign Martin and Prigioni with just the mini-MLE? I’m not. I think we have to lose one. I think it will be Martin because (in theory) we have Marcus Camby to replace him, but I don’t expect that to go well.

      That’s kind of why I’m keen on Okafor as a backup C.

    16. Frank

      IMHO – any offseason plan that suggests we can pawn off Amare and his $45MM uninsured contract is basically a nonstarter. There is no team that will be willing to take that contract. So honestly, we should just forget about it. If this were Lebron/Durant or even Nowitzki on an ininsured/cap-killing contract, that’d be one thing — but Amare has been hurt way too much and is just not good enough to justify that kind of risk, even for a billionaire.

      Re: Prigs, Martin, and Copeland — I highly doubt that Martin will get any offers for more than the vet’s minimum — and even if he gets a competing offer for that minimum, we can outbid them with a non-bird exception (20% raise I think). And even though K-mart was great in April, IMO his total lack of an offensive game was exposed and he was relatively ineffective in the playoffs. So no great loss if he leaves.

      Re: Prigs and Copeland – they are likely to get offers above the minimum, and so I honestly would try to lock them up early with some combination under the mini-MLE. If I had to choose one…I’d probably go with Copeland only because he’s younger and potentially could be a useful player for years down the road. I doubt Prigs stays around for more than another year.

    17. thenoblefacehumper

      massive: Nothing would be better in this draft. Schroeder and Shumpert would probably give up a collective 15 points a game on a nightly basis.

      Yeah, a Schroeder/Shumpert back court would definitely be something to get excited about for a team who’s long term future isn’t looking so hot. I can’t imagine Schroeder gets by the Jazz though.

    18. massive

      I think Amar’e will have a healthy season next year. I have absolutely no reason to believe he will, but it’s not like he needs to come in and be the super explosive Amar’e he was in his prime. He doesn’t even need to be the 2011 Amar’e. All we need from him is 25-29 minutes a night at his usual, extremely efficient offense and really good weak-side shot blocking.

      This team’s biggest problem is health. If things break well and everybody is healthy going into the playoffs, we probably have a better shot at winning the East than we did this year as Dwyane Wade appears to be getting worse with age. We just need to get the Phoenix training staff in New York.

    19. Hubert

      Frank:
      IMHO – any offseason plan that suggests we can pawn off Amare and his $45MM uninsured contract is basically a nonstarter.

      The uninsured thing is overblown, in my opinion. For one thing, it mattered a whole lot more when there was $80 mil on the contract.

      Second, is there actually an NBA rule that specifies teams can only buy insurance at the time the contract is written? I don’t think there is. And outside of the CBA, you can insure a contract at any time. And there is a difference between being uninsured (like Amar’e's contract) and not being insurable (which is not the case).

      For example, you’re an insurance company. Jim Dolan offers you a $44 million premium to insure Amar’e's $45 million contract. The contract will get through underwriting in less than the time it took you to read this. Amar’e wasn’t uninsured because he was uninsurable. He was uninsured because the premium was too high. And, as it turns out, not buying insurance on his contract has (so far) proven to be a very shrewd decision by whoever made it (I’m assuming it wasn’t Dolan entirely because it was shrewd). Because Amar’e probably isn’t going to retire in the next two years because of his injuries to his knees or back, and that’s the only reason insurance would pay out. So the insurance would be a waste of money at this point.

      And finally, though I completely understand and respect your statement, I feel very strongly that there is always someone stupid enough to do something you think no one would be stupid enough to do.

    20. Hubert

      Hold on, I was wrong about something, and we’re all wrong about something, too.

      Here’s how the insurance works from Larry Coon’s FAQ:

      There is a league-wide policy that insures the contracts of around 150 players each season. Each team submits at least five players for coverage from their five most expensive contracts based on total remaining salary (with two or more years remaining) and their five most expensive contracts based on current season salary. Teams also have the option of submitting additional names for coverage. The carrier has the right to exclude 14 contracts per season, such as when they consider a player with a very large remaining contract to be a medical risk. For example they excluded Luol Deng in 2008-09 because he had $71 million remaining and a history of back injuries. The list of excluded players changes each year, so a player who is not covered one season might be covered the following season. However, once a player is covered the carrier can’t exclude the player for the remainder of his current contract.

      If an insured player is disabled, there is a 41 game waiting period, after which the insurance company pays 80% of the guaranteed portion of the player’s remaining base salary, up to $175,000 per regular season game. The waiting period can span seasons, and the player even can attempt to come back — if he does and finds that he is unable to play, the 41-game count resumes (as long as he stopped playing due to the same injury).

      If the player is traded, his new team receives the benefit — for example, even though Cuttino Mobley’s heart condition was discovered prior to his trade to the Knicks, the Knicks received the insurance payout.

    21. massive

      thenoblefacehumper: Yeah, a Schroeder/Shumpert back court would definitely be something to get excited about for a team who’s long term future isn’t looking so hot. I can’t imagine Schroeder gets by the Jazz though.

      I hear it’s between Schroeder and Larkin, and I’m currently rooting for Shane Larkin lol. I really hope they take Larkin and Schroeder falls to us.

    22. Hubert

      So it does seem like we can’t purchase insurance ourselves.

      And a team doesn’t only get paid out if a player retires from injury. It’s if the player misses 41 consecutive games. (So Amar’e could be a risk for that.)

      But…

      Who is and isn’t insured changes every year, and only 14 players can be excluded.

      There is a strong chance that in the final year of the contract, Amar’e isn’t one of the 14 riskiest cases in the league due to the fact that he only has one year left. I would imagine Dwight Howard’s upcoming 5 year $120 million contract and whatever the hell Andrew Bynum is going to get will carry more risk than the final 1 year of Amar’e Stoudemire.

    23. flossy

      Hubert: You are better off, IMO, building a team that in no way relies on the health of Amar’e Stoudemire for anything.

      Sorry, we’re going to have to wait 2 years for that. In the meantime, we’re absolutely not better off trading one of the best scorers in the game (when healthy) for some other team’s overpaid garbage.

    24. flossy

      Hubert: Between Prigioni, Martin, and Copeland, I’m expecting to only be able to keep one. I like Copeland a lot but he’s the most expendable.

      Martin will be available for the vets minimum. That’s what you offer 36 year-old power forwards who can’t realistically play more than 20 mpg.

    25. flossy

      Hubert: For example, you’re an insurance company. Jim Dolan offers you a $44 million premium to insure Amar’e’s $45 million contract. The contract will get through underwriting in less than the time it took you to read this.

      So some team is going to trade for Amar’e and pay his entire salary again in insurance premiums? Dude you need to go back to sleep.

    26. Glew

      He’s only 19 too! Not sure how woody feels about that but I could just picture those floaters going right up over Hibbert and as mobb deep said, “I’m only nineteen but my mind is older, and when things get real my warm heart turns cold”

    27. Hubert

      All this ultimately supports my original statement, though:

      The uninsured thing is way overblown. There are 14 players who have uninsured contracts. You’d think it was only Amar’e the way they talk about it.

      Luol Deng has been uninsured for the last 3 years and he’s been involved in 100 trade rumors without anyone mentioning he is uninsured.

      I’ve been trying to research who the other 12 guys are. A simple google search reveals just how repetitive sports “journalists” are. There are 1,000,000 articles about Amar’e being uninsured but very few on the rest.

      I’ve sources online saying Eric Gordon and Steve Nash are uninsured.

      I’m guessing Derrick Rose is uninsured (his contract technically started AFTER he tore his ACL, so I’m using logic here. He was guaranteed to cost an insurance company 80% of the $16 million he was owed, so I’m guessing they passed on that).

      I will keep digging.

    28. flossy

      Amar’e has two freshly cleaned-out knees. The off season after his maintenance surgeries would be the dumbest possible time to sell low on a player like that. His trade value is non-existent right not, but if he’s ever going to be able to play (most of a) full season, it’ll be next year, and if this past season is any evidence, he can be extremely effective when healthy. Not just individually, but the core group of Melo/Amar’e/Chandler just killed it in a limited sample last season, and under adverse circumstances.

      Given what this playoffs demonstrated, which is that our team can’t get past the best defenses in the NBA without more than one elite scoring threat (a club to which JR Smith does NOT belong, and neither does Tyson “5 FGA/game” Chandler), trading Amar’e for two replacement level bench players who are awful scorers strikes me as just unfathomably stupid.

      Some may find it unlikely that Amar’e stays healthy through the playoffs (though I happen to think that with a disciplined minutes management program, it is possible), but I’ll take the chance that he does and that his presence unlocks a better version of the Knicks rather than do a trade that guarantees we won’t have the firepower to get out of the East for the next two years.

    29. Hubert

      flossy: So some team is going to trade for Amar’e and pay his entire salary again in insurance premiums?Dude you need to go back to sleep.

      I wasn’t suggesting that. I was suggesting that the problem could be fixed with Dolan cash (in real life, it would cost maybe $10-$11 million, and that’s something he would foot if he needed to, IMO). But I subsequently discovered how insurance works within the CBA, so the point is moot.

      I do have way too much time on my hands today, though, you are right about that.

    30. Hubert

      flossy:
      Amar’e has two freshly cleaned-out knees.The off season after his maintenance surgeries would be the dumbest possible time to sell low on a player like that.His trade value is non-existent right not, but if he’s ever going to be able to play (most of a) full season, it’ll be next year, and if this past season is any evidence, he can be extremely effective when healthy.

      This is a very strong point. But I don’t trust us to sell high on Amar’e. We’re more likely to hold on too long and end up seeing his suit game in the spring as usual.

    31. massive

      Glew:
      He’s only 19 too! Not sure how woody feels about that but I could just picture those floaters going right up over Hibbert and as mobb deep said, “I’m only nineteen but my mind is older, and when things get real my warm heart turns cold”

      He’s going to be a great player if he comes to the Knicks. He’ll be allowed to grow the same way Rondo did amongst some of the best players in the league, and he’s already off to a better offensive start than Rondo was. Having him learn patience from Prigioni and penetration from Felton will make him one of the best PGs in the league. Chances are that he will end up in Utah, but we really would be lucky to land him.

      And according to rumors out of Dallas, the #13 pick is up for grabs. I don’t think anyone will trade for it until draft night until they know who will be there. I would love to get the 13th pick and maybe Vince Carter off of the Mavericks for nothing but cap relief. If we could come out of the draft with Vince Carter, Dennis Schroeder, and Reggie Bullock/Mike Muscala.

    32. er

      Small aside, Pat Ewing is now the associate coach here in Charlotte, and J Kidd is putting together a staff in BK…..crazy

    33. Hubert

      If there is one thing to take from all my many ramblings today, it’s this:

      Amar’e's contract is very likely to be insured, if not next year, then in his final year. So all this talk about him being unmovable because he is uninsured is not well informed.

      (Not that I blame anyone for stating it. We’ve been fed this bullshit about his contract for 3 straight years, mostly through that idiot Bill Simmons and his echo chamber.)

      Also, if you’re bored at work, it’s fun trying to figure out who the 14 uninsured contracts are.

    34. flossy

      Hubert: This is a very strong point.But I don’t trust us to sell high on Amar’e.We’re more likely to hold on too long and end up seeing his suit game in the spring as usual.

      Even if, in the worst case scenario, he really can’t play a whole season, he’ll actually *gain* trade value at the end of next season solely by virtue of being an expiring contract. I believe it’s worth one more try with him, given the upside, instead of basically folding our hand and conceding the last couple years of Melo/Tyson’s current contracts.

    35. Hubert

      I get that the upside is tantalizing and I understand anyone who would want to take that chance.

      I don’t think we would be folding the tent if we traded him for two useful backups, though, because I think we were already pretty good last year without him.

      That’s all.

      I will now embark on a quixotic quest to uncover the 14 uninsured NBA contracts.

      Blake Griffin’s next contract (beginning next year) seems to be uninsured (there is very little definitive data).

      I can’t believe that idiot Simmons wrote an entire column about the worst contracts in the NBA and acted like Amar’e was the only one that was uninsured.

    36. Unreason

      massive: Having him learn patience from Prigioni and penetration from Felton will make him one of the best PGs in the league. Chances are that he will end up in Utah, but we really would be lucky to land him.

      He does look good but isn’t it hard to evaluate him without knowing more about the talent he’s played against? In any event, one of the best pg in the league seems pretty optimistic. Trey Burke will have a very hard time becoming one of the best pg in the league, won’t he?, and I’m guessing he’ll have a better NBA career than Schroeder.

    37. massive

      Unreason: He does look good but isn’t it hard to evaluate him without knowing more about the talent he’s played against?In any event, one of the best pg in the league seems pretty optimistic. Trey Burke will have a very hard time becoming one of the best pg in the league, won’t he?, and I’m guessing he’ll have a better NBA career than Schroeder.

      Well, for one, Schroeder is already a great defender. He ran full court presses by himself at times this season. He fights over screens very well (better than anyone currently on the Knicks) and he uses his length extremely well to both ball handlers. And his lateral quickness is great. He’ll be a good defender from Day 1.

      He’s also an advanced ball-handler, and he’s got a lightning first step. He’s good in the P&R and has great court vision. And then he’s a good spot up shooter.

      At this point in their developments, Burke is the better scorer and Schroeder is the better distributor. I think Schroeder has the instincts and athleticism to be a better two way player. Schroeder will probably never score 20 points a season the way Burke has the potential to, but in terms of who is the better floor general, I’m going with Schroeder. Here’s a pretty good video of his strengths and weaknesses. Just watch the way he plays defense and tell me he and Shumpert wouldn’t be a godsend.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koDAqCWjIcw

    38. johnno

      Glew: Wow Shroder would be a huge steal at #24. I wonder how we can get a higher pick in order to obtain him. If anyone hasn’t yet checked this guy out, here it is.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW2nY2NFBbw

      He looks great in this highlight video. However, I’m skeptical of highlights that were filmed in a gym that looks no bigger than the one that my kids play their 4th grade rec league games in. It kind of makes you wonder about the quality of the competition and the intensity of the game. The draftexpress.com video is over 17 minutes long and the last 4 minutes cover his weaknesses. If you only watch the first 13 minutes, he looks like a world beater. If you only watch the last 4 minutes, he looks like Jeremy Lin in that brutal game against the Heat. Having said all of that, he is now the guy that I am rooting hardest for the Knicks to draft and I will be devastated if he gets nabbed one pick before the Knicks pick. (Then again, yesterday I felt that way about Tony Mitchell; tomorrow I’ll probably feel that way about someone like Mike Muscala. By draft night, I will be probably be on pins and needles hoping that they draft some guy who I still haven’t heard of yet.)

    39. massive

      My top few guys for the Knicks are Schröder, Bullock, Muscala, and Rice Jr. I’d rather stick with those guys and not a player like Archie Goodwin or Tony Mitchell. I’d prefer production + athleticism over “raw potential.”

    40. Glew

      johnno: He looks great in this highlight video.However, I’m skeptical of highlights that were filmed in a gym that looks no bigger than the one that my kids play their 4th grade rec league games in.It kind of makes you wonder about the quality of the competition and the intensity of the game.The draftexpress.com video is over 17 minutes long and the last 4 minutes cover his weaknesses.If you only watch the first 13 minutes, he looks like a world beater.If you only watch the last 4 minutes, he looks like Jeremy Lin in that brutal game against the Heat.

      Yeah I noticed that as well, I haven’t really watched much international basketball at all and just assumed that is what “it”(competition/gyms) looks like. I will have to check out the draft express video later tonight. I really like the idea of a pg with elite athleticism that is 6’2 with a wingspan of 6’7. Realistically, I could be satisfied by drafting a solid 2 way player at any position. I am most fearful that we will get a poor man’s Chandler type player and come playoffs next year we are in the same situation as the last few years with little to no pg play, no Amare, bigs that are basically just 6 fouls and no help offensively for Melo. It would be awesome to resign cope and trade Novak for a non-guaranteed contract and 1st or 2nd round pick.

    41. massive

      Well, he had 18 points and 6 assists in the Nike Hoop Summit game (against the 2014 NBA Draft, except Andrew Wiggins was on his team), a rather competitive game since NBA scouts are there. And in that gym, he was playing against the World Select Team (the top international NBA prospects under 20). The kid he made fall? Dante Exum; he’s a player out of Australia who projects to be a top 10 pick in next year’s draft. Schroeder is also widely regarded as the best German prospect since Dirk Nowitzki.

      Now I’m not saying that to say that he was absolutely killing against NBA level talent. Just that a) the competition was of a respectable level and b) they were actually competing for future jobs. There’s a reason the Nike Hoop Summit Week rose Dennis Schroeder’s stock from “fringe NBA prospect” to “projected late lottery pick.”

      If it’s not apparent yet, I’m probably Dennis Schroeder’s biggest fan on this website. He has every chance to be Rajon Rondo + a jumper (he’s not the rebounder Rondo is, but Rondo gets a lot of team rebounds anyway). If Rondo had a jumper, he’d probably be the best PG in the league. That’s the kind of potential Schroeder has. He can come in right away and run the 2nd unit/space the floor. If we draft him, we wouldn’t need to make one more move (besides retaining our FAs) to have had a successful off-season. I have that much faith in his ability and potential.

    42. flossy

      Dennis Schroeder will not be there at 24. Chad Ford says the Knicks are drooling over Tony Mitchell, so that’s mildly alarming

    43. massive

      flossy:
      Dennis Schroeder will not be there at 24.Chad Ford says the Knicks are drooling over Tony Mitchell, so that’s mildly alarming

      I wouldn’t hate Tony Mitchell. Mitchell was a projected lottery pick before the season started (he and Anthony Davis were the only freshmen to average double doubles that season). His scoring production dropped to a scary low level. He went from a .635 TS% on a 23.8% usage (he even shot 44% from 3!) to a .530 TS% on a 22.7% usage. His stats across the board are a lot less impressive than his first college season, and apparently the reason for that was he wasn’t as motivated. As a Jets’ fan, this scenario reminds me of the Quinton Coples situation, and I’m really glad we took Coples now. A motivated Tony Mitchell is probably a better version of Josh Smith, and I don’t think he’ll be allowed to slack if Kenyon Martin has anything to do with it. He’d be a part of a winning culture (when was the last time you could say that about the Knicks?), and I think we’d get the most out of him. Well, unless he doesn’t get playing time and starts to sulk. Then he’d be out of a job in 2-3 years.

      So yeah, Tony Mitchell is probably the ultimate boom or bust prospect in this draft. Mike Woodson dealt with a player similar to him in Atlanta, so I think he has the credentials to get the most out of Tony Mitchell.

    44. massive

      Come to think of it, anyone with the ability to grab 10 rebounds a night and shoot 3s at a 40+ percent rate is a welcome addition to my team. I sure hope that’s the Tony Mitchell we’re getting if we take him.

    45. Unreason

      massive: He has every chance to be Rajon Rondo + a jumper

      If would be a great freakin’ pleasure to see someone in the back court consistently fight over screens. That’s for sure. But why wouldn’t his ceiling be apparent to others also? I’m not sure that even Nerlens Noel has a ceiling that high. Rajon Rondo + a jumper is a spectacular ceiling IMO. If he’s that good, I’m surprised he’s not projected at 1 or 2?

      Based just on the vid highlights of Schroeder and what I’ve seen of Trey Burke, I can’t say that Schroeder looks like the better distributor/floor general. Schroeder looks good, especially for 19, but Burke reminds me a bit of a very young Tony Parker. If he bulks up a bit and his D improves, on team with a good roll guy and a good 3-point specialist, I could see him being very good. Not Tony Parker good, but very good. Maybe a ceiling of Damon Stoudamire.

      Anyhow I hope I’m wrong and you’re right and we have a Rondo with a jumper to watch for years to come.

    46. d-mar

      Brian Cronin:
      What a strange series this is so far. The Spurs are kicking some ass.

      Miami only seems to play well in must win games, and still hasn’t lost 2 games in a row since January. I think they go back to Miami down 3-2, and then win games 6 and 7. However, the last 2 games, LeBron is 14-38, which is not a good sign for the Heat.

    47. massive

      Unreason: If would be a great freakin’ pleasure to see someone in the back court consistently fight over screens. That’s for sure. But why wouldn’t his ceiling be apparent to others also? I’m not sure that even Nerlens Noel has a ceiling that high. Rajon Rondo + a jumper is a spectacular ceiling IMO. If he’s that good, I’m surprised he’s not projected at 1 or 2?

      Based just on the vid highlights of Schroeder and what I’ve seen of Trey Burke, I can’t say that Schroeder looks like the better distributor/floor general. Schroeder looks good, especially for 19, but Burke reminds me a bit of a very young Tony Parker. If he bulks up a bit and his D improves, on team with a good roll guy and a good 3-point specialist, I could see him being very good. Not Tony Parker good, but very good. Maybe a ceiling of Damon Stoudamire.

      Anyhow I hope I’m wrong and you’re right and we have a Rondo with a jumper to watch for years to come.

      That’s the thing. He’s not exactly unknown. Walt Perrin (Utah Jazz front office) says he believes he’s further along offensively than Rondo was at the same point in his career. Schroeder is projected to go as high as #13 to Dallas, but I’m hoping he has a string of underwhelming workouts compared to Shane Larkin (who I hope has the greatest workouts ever).

    48. max fisher-cohen

      responding to Frank and Flossy from the other day about Wall.

      Westbrook is a great player. My only point was that he’s not a guy who can win with just great role players. If you call Lebron the only tier 1 player (worth double the max contract), and Paul, Durant and Howard tier 2 (maybe worth 40% more than the max), then Marc Gasol and Tony Parker (this year) are at the top of tier 3, followed by a healthy Rose, and then Westbrook is somewhere in the middle of that tier.

      Wall has the potential to be tier 4 if he becomes a consistent shooter. At this point, you’re talking about players who when in their prime perform like Conley, Z-Bo, Lawson, Gallinari, Iguodala, Tyson Chandler, Bosh, Carlos Boozer…I could probably list another two dozen players here who all should be making somewhere in the $8-12m/year range, who all are great in the right situation but also replaceable via free agency. Examples of young players like this are Jimmy Butler, Gordon Hayward, Jeff Teague, Shumpert, Lin, Tyreke Evans.

      The problem with Wall is that you can see Washington thinks he’s a jewel. He did a little complaining in the lockout season (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/for-john-wall-and-the-wizards-what-is-there-to-smile-about/2012/01/04/gIQAghPvaP_story.html), and not so long after, they’d traded their cap space for overpaid players such as Nene, Ariza and Okafor.

      So yeah, Wall will probably end up a pretty good player, but not when he’s making $15m+/year. He’s no bargain. Sure he looked good later in the season last year, but Nene was hurt and Beal was learning to play at an NBA level early in the season. The +/-. Add in that his backups were D-leaguers, and the +/- #s make sense. As far as 2 months of good shooting, he’ll HAVE to keep that up to be the $10m player I expect him to become.

      Would you trade Shumpert for John Wall? Maybe you would, but would you feel like you got away with murder as a result of the trade? I doubt it.

    49. ruruland

      Rose is the fourth best player in tier three?

      Interesting. I’d disagree with that.

      Who else do you have in tier three? Where are Harden, Melo? Is this age based?

      Wall is already tier 4 ( I think). With young players, especially incredible physical specimens like Wall, the trendline is always more important than career averages.

      I definitely think Wall can be as good as Rose has ever been by next season.

      Young players, from what I’ve studied, seem to develop in spurts. So, there’s far greater likelihood that Wall’s last 25 games from last season are far more important in terms of projecting him than anything else prior to that.

      And his last 25 games last season would represent better numbers than any of Rose’s 4 career.

      Neither of them defend much, but obviously their offensive impact goes well beyond their efficiency numbers, which aren’t good.

    50. nicos

      I still think you’re underestimating him- his ceiling is Rose/Westbrook, equally quick and faster in the open court and while he’s not quite as strong as those guys he’s a more natural playmaker than either. I think both Rose and Westbrook are over-rated a bit defensively and Wall in certainly in their league and could be better (though if Westbrook cleans up his mental lapses he’d be better). I’d agree that the guy he is now isn’t worth close to the max and even if he replicates what he did late last year then he’s maybe worth 12m at the high end. Maxing him out is a huge gamble but I think it’s tough to find guys with his upside even if you have unlimited cap space- especially if you’re a struggling franchise without a ton of stability. Maybe you’re right and he should be moved before they have to make that call but I’d want better than Tobias Harris and the #2 pick in a really crappy draft.

    51. ruruland

      nicos:
      I still think you’re underestimating him- his ceiling is Rose/Westbrook, equally quick and faster in the open court and while he’s not quite as strong as those guys he’s a more natural playmaker than either.I think both Rose and Westbrook are over-rated a bit defensively and Wall in certainly in their league and could be better (though if Westbrook cleans up his mental lapses he’d be better).I’d agree that the guy he is now isn’t worth close to the max and even if he replicates what he did late last year then he’s maybe worth 12m at the high end.Maxing him out is a huge gamble but I think it’s tough to find guys with his upside even if you have unlimited cap space- especially if you’re a struggling franchise without a ton of stability.Maybe you’re right and he should be moved before they have to make that call but I’d want better than Tobias Harris and the #2 pick in a really crappy draft.

      right… And are tier three guys worth the max or not?

      I’d give Wall a max contract.

    52. BigBlueAL

      Jared Zwerling tweeted earlier tonight about the Knicks Summer League team:

      “League sources confirm with me that D-League stars Toure Murry and Tony Mitchell (from Alabama) will be on the #Knicks summer league team.”

      “Murry was seen as 1 of the best prospects in the D-League. As for Mitchell, a source said, “Watch out!” He’s grown well as a 2, 3.”

    53. nicos

      ruruland: right… And are tier three guys worth the max or not?

      I’d give Wall a max contract.

      The market certainly says yes. Like I said, I wouldn’t trade him unless I was blown away- of course I’d try to sign him for less than the max but if push came to shove I’d roll the dice rather than trading him just to avoid paying him.

    54. flossy

      BigBlueAL:
      Jared Zwerling tweeted earlier tonight about the Knicks Summer League team:

      “League sources confirm with me that D-League stars Toure Murry and Tony Mitchell (from Alabama) will be on the #Knicks summer league team.”

      “Murry was seen as 1 of the best prospects in the D-League. As for Mitchell, a source said, “Watch out!” He’s grown well as a 2, 3.”

      We could potentially have two Tony Mitchells on the roster next season?

    55. flossy

      I used to be a big non-believer in Wall but this past season changed my opinion. The Wizards looked like a totally different team with him playing vs. sitting, and him and Beal look like they could be a very dynamic (and complementary) backcourt for years to come. It’s amazing how subtracting the stupid from that roster allowed him to come into his own. Wall still needs to work on his jump shot and defense but he’s an A+ athlete and gifted playmaker who actually does make his teammates better, and what 22 year-old doesn’t have some work to do on their game?

      As for paying him the max, I think it would be an overpay but not an outrageously horrible one. What other top tier free agent is going to sign in Washington? They need to pay somebody so it might as well be him–the key spending the rest of their cap intelligently to surround him with the right players. Okafor and Ariza expire soon, so they’ll have some more to spend too.

    56. Frank

      max fisher-cohen: Would you trade Shumpert for John Wall? Maybe you would, but would you feel like you got away with murder as a result of the trade? I doubt it.

      I’d do that, but you’re right – I’d still feel a little bad about it. But that has more to do with my unhealthy and unreasonable love for Shump more than the actual value of the trade — I think Wall is going to be fantastic.

      flossy: Some may find it unlikely that Amar’e stays healthy through the playoffs (though I happen to think that with a disciplined minutes management program, it is possible), but I’ll take the chance that he does and that his presence unlocks a better version of the Knicks rather than do a trade that guarantees we won’t have the firepower to get out of the East for the next two years.

      Agree 1000000%. For better or for worse (probably worse, unfortunately), our best chance to make real noise in the next two years is a healthy Amare Stoudemire being a real mismatch against pretty much any Eastern Conference 4 or 5, especially 2nd unit guys. Trading him for a bunch of low-ceiling overpaid role players feels like the Howard Eisley Clarence Weatherspoon Othella Harrington Knicks all over again. Oh, and Shandon Anderson. How could I forget Shandon Anderson?

      flossy: As for paying him the max, I think it would be an overpay but not an outrageously horrible one. What other top tier free agent is going to sign in Washington

      This is true too — but why is that? DC is a pretty awesome city. Not sure why it couldn’t be considered a 2nd tier destination for FAs.

    57. max fisher-cohen

      Alright, I looked at his stats a little closer, and I do see what you all are talking about in terms of his progress. His 3 point shot is still god awful (it was really just 1 month of GOOD shooting — he dropped back to Earth in April), but he has definitely improved to mediocre from midrange. Maybe Westbrook is not that much of a stretch although Wall certainly loses in the health department to Russell.

      The thing that really surprised me is that he’s not just scoring in transition anymore. Look at his eFG% by shot clock:

      1st yr: http://www.82games.com/1011/10WAS2.HTM
      2nd yr: http://www.82games.com/1112/11WAS1.HTM
      3rd yr: http://www.82games.com/1213/12WAS1.HTM

      The only reason he looked competent on offense in his first two years was because of his killer speed in transition. In the halfcourt, he was humiliating himself. This year, to my surprise, he’s WAY better.

      If I had to choose now, I’d give Wall a max contract if I had already managed to draft Durant and Ibaka because he complements those guys well as an attacking PG. I wouldn’t lock him up as my lead guy, expecting to fill holes via free agency because free agency, especially if you’re not in a tip top market or are already a title contender, leaves you drastically overpaying players 2nd and 3rd rate players. If they hadn’t blown the Jan Vesely pick, re-signing him would be pretty smart, but Vesely might end up being the worst player of the entire 1st rnd of that draft. Still, I can understand the logic of coddling Wall a little better now.

      As far as my rankings go, they’re not super carefully researched, and I’m sure I could be convinced otherwise about Derrick Rose. If I was choosing between a healthy Rose and Harden, it’d be a tough choice, but I’d probably go with Harden. I’d put the Melo we got last year right there in that bunch (not considering age) above Westbrook, probably below Rose and Harden.

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