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Monday, November 24, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jul 02 2013)

  • [New York Times] Paul Staying in LA, Howard Hears Pitches to Leave (Tue, 02 Jul 2013 03:49:25 GMT)
    Chris Paul’s answer was brief, just like his time on the free agent market.    

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Countermove May Be Counterproductive (Tue, 02 Jul 2013 01:59:37 GMT)
    The Knicks completed a deal in principle with Toronto to acquire forward Andrea Bargnani for Steve Novak, Marcus Camby and a draft pick.    

  • [New York Times] Nets Said to Make Deal for Pierce and Garnett (Tue, 02 Jul 2013 01:31:36 GMT)
    The Nets are said to be looking to swap Gerald Wallace, Kris Humphries and draft picks for the Celtics’ Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce.    

  • [New York Times] Roundup: Paul Decides to Remain With Clippers; Rockets and Hawks Try to Lure Howard (Tue, 02 Jul 2013 00:34:57 GMT)
    The agent Leon Rose confirmed Chris Paul’s return to the Clippers, which had been expected after they signed Doc Rivers as their new coach.    

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks complete Bargnani trade with Raptors (Tue, 02 Jul 2013 04:06:41 GMT)
    The Knicks completed the trade with Toronto to acquire Andrea Bargnani by including free agent Quentin Richardson in the revised trade. The Raptors will receive Marcus Camby, Steve Novak, Richardson, a 2016 first-round pick and second-rounders in 2014 and 2017.    

  • 220 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jul 02 2013)

    1. Loathing

      I still like the Bargnani trade. Even if he’s a total fail, his contract ends in 2015, so we’d still have a year to rebuild a decent team through FA and get another 1st rounder in that draft. If this team falls apart NEXT year (injuries, etc.) then it’s possible the 2015 draft might find us in a decent place. If not, then there’s still FA. While not as good as ’14, I heard ’15 will still be a good FA year. Making this move at the very LEAST helps with a quick rebuild, faster than three irrelevant picks would.

      …and if Bargs n’ STAT both have miracle comebacks, then the Knicks are in great shape!

    2. Loathing

      …and besides, it’s not like the Knicks TOTALLY ignore the draft…they just ignore it half the time. I mean, they obviously struck gold with Shump, Gallo n’ Wilson made NICE trade pieces for ‘Melo, and Zeke got one seriously right when he drafted David Lee (and yes, how I wish we still had him).

      Pardon any typos…still having my morning coffee.

    3. DCrockett17

      Quick thought on Copeland.

      I’m not as convinced as some that he’s on the next flight out of town. A number of teams are allegedly expressing interest, and that’s obviously bad for NY. However, I think his age and the fact that he’s a bit of a one-hit wonder means that teams may flirt (e.g., Indiana*) but may not be interested in ponying up a deal NY can’t match. I think Cope is, all things equal, a slice of the mini-MLE guy.

      *If you’re Indiana you have little incentive to overpay for Copeland. Your core players are likely to still be in their primes as Miami fades. If you can add Copeland for a piece of the MLE it’s a no-brainer, but above that amount it starts to look like a bad gamble. (By that same logic though, Nate Robinson would be a better addition. They need bench points but preferably in the back court and they’d weaken Chicago simultaneously.)

      My big fear about Copeland is less Indiana or Milwaukee. It is that once some of the bigger dominoes start to fall, someone will have been left at the altar with a lot of money and motivation to add firepower. If, for instance, Dwight goes to Houston, the Mavs and the Lakers know they don’t have a direct answer for that. They may just look to add firepower, regardless of position. That could all of a sudden make Copeland a full MLE guy. That would suck for us.

    4. chrisk06811

      Man, I read the Toronto site last night, wish I hadn’t. They paint a picture of a player who was satisfied living with his strengths and not working on his weaknesses. The other part that is interesting….there’s a lot of blame on TOR’s management too; hoping he’d live up to the hype, not letting the coach actually coach him; it’s like nobody wanted to come down hard on him. I remember when Woody took over the Knicks, and he apparently sat Melo, Chandler and Amare down and told them he was holding them accountable….maybe he’s the guy for this job? It seems for certain that Woody’s not gonna give this guy starter minutes unless he earns them.

      I wonder if some of this is cultural; how some european players just appear soft. He’s got a game kinda like gallo’s, more offensive skills, less willing to work on D. but, Gallo used to get that crazy look in his eyes. Not sure this guy has crazy eyes.

    5. ess-dog

      We still need to get a bench shooter and a bench rebounder/defender.

      KMart fits as a bench pf, but I really wish we could find a pg that can really shoot the three and defend a little to go along with Prig.

      If we can get those 2 pieces, then I’m fine letting Cope walk.

    6. er

      chrisk06811:
      Man, I read the Toronto site last night, wish I hadn’t.They paint a picture of a player who was satisfied living with his strengths and not working on his weaknesses.The other part that is interesting….there’s a lot of blame on TOR’s management too; hoping he’d live up to the hype, not letting the coach actually coach him; it’s like nobody wanted to come down hard on him.I remember when Woody took over the Knicks, and he apparently sat Melo, Chandler and Amare down and told them he was holding them accountable….maybe he’s the guy for this job?It seems for certain that Woody’s not gonna give this guy starter minutes unless he earns them.

      I wonder if some of this is cultural; how some european players just appear soft.He’s got a game kinda like gallo’s, more offensive skills, less willing to work on D.but, Gallo used to get that crazy look in his eyes.Not sure this guy has crazy eyes.

      Im not the biggest gallo fan but he does have alotta heart which i like about him. I remember when melo was on the nuggets and they ALWAYS got into it which was fun. Not so much when he dropped 38 on us lol

    7. yellowboy90

      anyone else find it interesting how Chicago goes through bench shooters, Korver-Belineli-Dunleavey.

    8. Frank

      Interesting article about Bargnani on PNRs by Sebastian Pruiti before he went to OKC:

      http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/22559/the-versatility-of-andrea-bargnani

      If we’re not going to get a PG that is good off the pullup jumper, the next (or equally) best thing is to get a real pick and pop threat — we don’t really have one on this team.

      I think ultimately the starting 5 will be Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, and Chandler– but that the 2nd unit will be anchored in the front court by Kmart and Bargnani. A Prigs, JR, Kmart, and Bargnani 2nd unit would not be bad at all.

    9. danvt

      Gosh, I just made it through yesterday’s thread. Painful. Angry. Infighting. Even back to Melo bashing. I get it. We just brought in the most derided player in the league. This sample says it all about the doubts in NYK fans collective psyche.

      “But this trade is distressing primarily because of the process and the philosophy that informed it, a philosophy guided by delusions of title-winning grandeur and big names, an offensive lack of patience in roster-building, and an obvious deficiency in understanding how to maximize value in the 21st century NBA.”

      I think Bargnani is kind of showing up as a cruel joke on a mugged fan base. TOR hated this guy and blamed him for everything. So, you’re not going to read positive comments in those blogs. The statement above shows the NYK fan mind set but it’s not you’re older brothers knicks. We didn’t trade Noah and Ty Thomas for Curry. We took a chance on a guy that Grunwald actually likes and actually thinks will play well. A guy that other teams actually wanted. We needed to give up a little to get him. I read pre trade posts that made a good case for a stretch 5. I thought, “Bargnani?”, then I thought, “No”. Everyone hates him.

      Look, LBJ may win the next 5-10 championships. They did it this year without a healthy Dwade. Should we not try to get better and simply try to build through the draft. Yes, we can not resign Amar’e and Tyson after two seasons and start again but that’s not what’s on Grunwalds mind right now. He’s thinking about what ne needs on the court to get by IND, MIA and SAS. He’s thinking about what Sheed did in the 18-3 start. He’s trying to recreate that. He made a reasonable trade for a good athlete and knew he would take a hit because the man is loathed. Grunwald feels that, if JR comes back, he may already have made us a better team than last year.

    10. Loathing

      ess-dog:
      We still need to get a bench shooter and a bench rebounder/defender.

      KMart fits as a bench pf, but I really wish we could find a pg that can really shoot the three and defend a little to go along with Prig.

      If we can get those 2 pieces, then I’m fine letting Cope walk.

      Devin Harris?

    11. Frank

      Also in terms of team shot distribution, we’ve got one of the best corner 3 shooters in Shump – who shot 43.75% from the left corner and 42.86% from the right corner last regular season, and a ridiculous (small sample) 54.55% from the L corner and 75% from the R corner in the playoffs. Bargnani historically has been one of the league’s better above-the-break 3 point shooters (as is Melo). That’s pretty reasonable synergy.

    12. Frank

      Jared Zwerling reporting the Knicks are preparing to make an offer to Elton Brand. That’s a nice move. Might mean KMart is going elsewhere. Brand isn’t as good a defender as Kmart but is WAY better offensively.

      Feels like the Knicks are making a conscious effort to get away from guys that can’t shoot more than 2 feet from the basket.

    13. GHenman

      Frank: Jared Zwerling reporting the Knicks are preparing to make an offer to Elton Brand. That’s a nice move. Might mean KMart is going elsewhere. Brand isn’t as good a defender as Kmart but is WAY better offensively. Feels like the Knicks are making a conscious effort to get away from guys that can’t shoot more than 2 feet from the basket.

      Vet minimum I hope. I can’t see him getting much playing time if everybody’s healthy.

    14. johnno

      I read somewhere that the Pelicans might have to buy out Robin Lopez to create cap space. Any interest in him as a backup? At the vet minimum, I say yes, but I’d be hesitant to use the MMLE on him.

    15. johnno

      I love that Bargnani tweeted that he wants to thank the Toronto fans for all of their support. At least he has a sense of humor…

    16. Frank

      You know, if we sign Elton Brand, JR and Prigs both re-up, and we get someone even like Telfair, I’m all good with this offseason. That’d give us a rotation of:

      Chandler
      Melo
      STAT
      Shump
      Felton

      Brand
      Bargnani
      JR
      Prigs
      Telfair
      Hardaway
      Leslie

      And 3 more roster spots for long shots like Jerome Jordan, Sims, or other Euro guys GG can bring in.

    17. Garson

      I cannot understand the knicks pursuit of Brand…

      What we need from our backup PF positions is exactly what K-Mart gives us. agreed, his shot is unwatchable however he had some chemistry with our PGs on some lobs and We played our best ball when he replaced Chandler during the end of the season run.

    18. Keniman Shumpwalker

      Garson:
      I cannot understand the knicks pursuit of Brand…

      What we need from our backup PF positions is exactly what K-Mart gives us. agreed, his shot is unwatchable however he had some chemistry with our PGs on some lobs and We played our best ball when he replaced Chandler during the end of the season run.

      Pure speculation here but two thoughts: 1) maybe K-Mart has made it clear he’s not playing for less than the full mini-MLE, which might be too rich for our blood. He basically did the same thing last season and was unemployed for months because of it. 2) K-Mart is a pretty emotional guy and it wouldn’t surprise me if he was pissed about being asked to be included in the Bargs trade. Again, pure speculation and we don’t even know if GG really did ask him to sign off on that, but if it is true, that might have spurred K-Mart to say “fuck you, I’m out”.

    19. Frank

      Garson:
      I cannot understand the knicks pursuit of Brand…

      What we need from our backup PF positions is exactly what K-Mart gives us. agreed, his shot is unwatchable however he had some chemistry with our PGs on some lobs and We played our best ball when he replaced Chandler during the end of the season run.

      We also played our worst offensive basketball of the year in the playoffs when he was our backup 4/5.

      Overall I think these moves are showing us that the Knicks are really considering the postseason to be completely different than the regular season. We were an elite offense and average defense in the regular season, and an awful offense and excellent D in the playoffs. Granted we were playing against Boston and Indy who had slightly below average offenses and great D’s, but I think the D will be fine if Tyson gets back to himself and Shump continues to develop. And Brand is a pretty good defender too – definitely beefier and can play against the slower 4s and pretty much any 5 at this point.

    20. Frank

      meanwhile Howard Beck just threw a blanket over my excitement, saying that Brand has multiple offers and nothing is imminent with us.

    21. thenamestsam

      Frank:
      Jared Zwerling reporting the Knicks are preparing to make an offer to Elton Brand.That’s a nice move. Might mean KMart is going elsewhere. Brand isn’t as good a defender as Kmart but is WAY better offensively.

      Feels like the Knicks are making a conscious effort to get away from guys that can’t shoot more than 2 feet from the basket.

      Agree with this. I love the Brand idea. My biggest takeaway from the playoffs was that having guys who are total non-factors on one end of the court is a much bigger deal in the playoffs than the regular season. During the regular season teams for the most part are playing their default systems but during the playoffs teams go hard after the weaknesses of individual players. If you have guys who can’t do a thing on offense teams are going to play way off them and make it MUCH harder for everyone else. The fact that Brand is a real offensive player with a variety of skills is a big deal, especially in the playoffs. And he’s a much better defender than I think most people realize. He’d be a significant upgrade over K-Mart in my opinion.

      As much as I detest Bargnani I think a Tyson, Brand, Amare, Bargnani front court gives you a lot of options and flexibility in terms of how you want to play. It does seem like the minutes are getting squeezed already though. It seems to me that bringing in both those guys means you’re not planning on doing Melo at the 4 much if at all. That means if JR re-ups we’d be basically abandoning 2-PG lineups.

    22. SJK

      I don’t think going away from the 2-pg lineups is such a big deal. What’s really important is being able to surround Melo with shooters. If he plays the 3 at times with a unit of say Felton/JR/brand/bargnani, that’s 4 guys who can all shoot the ball pretty well. Melo would still be playing the 3 but he’s now got room to operate in the paint. That’s just one example but I think having bigs who can at least shoot it a bit gives us great offensive flexibility while not having to compromise size on D.

    23. Hubert

      Dune:
      We had Donnie and things were looking up…Why can’t the Knicks hire a good GM???The Knicks used to be a good franchise.Now they are a joke.

      No question the Nets will own NY for the next 2 years.I hope and pray the league either takes the team away from Dolan or sits him down and tells him to hire good people and let them run the team.

      We can’t take much more of this.I grew up a Knicks fan, but I’m so frustrated that I’m on the verge of hating them.I don’t care about winning a championship, I just want a them to be good today and know they will be good in the future.But no 1st rounder in 2 of the next 4 years is to much.

      Man, do yourself a favor and stop reading the papers or watching ESPN.

      One thing you have to understand: Dolan abuses the media. They get back at him by trashing his team at every stop. We’re caught in the crossfire of mindless groupthink.

      Just to refute some of your points:

      – We have a pretty good GM. Armed with just one first round pick, the mini-MLE, and the veteran’s minimum, he managed to get us the following players to add depth to the top 3 he inherited over the last two seasons:

      Iman Shumpert
      Jeremy Lin
      JR Smith
      Pablo Prigioni
      Kenyon Martin
      Shawne Williams
      Steve Novak
      Jason Kidd
      Chris Copeland

      That’s not good work, that’s great work.

      – We are not a joke. We are coming off a 54 win season and we were one of the 8 best teams in the league last year by any measure.

      – The team you think will own NY for the next two years? They’re a joke. They’re saddled with a terrible GM. You’re upset about having 2 first rounders in the next 4 years? They traded away four of their next five.

      I don’t understand how anyone can be on the verge of hating this team right now, after the 12 years we suffered and the season we just had.

    24. Loathing

      thenamestsam: Agree with this. I love the Brand idea. My biggest takeaway from the playoffs was that having guys who are total non-factors on one end of the court is a much bigger deal in the playoffs than the regular season. During the regular season teams for the most part are playing their default systems but during the playoffs teams go hard after the weaknesses of individual players. If you have guys who can’t do a thing on offense teams are going to play way off them and make it MUCH harder for everyone else. The fact that Brand is a real offensive player with a variety of skills is a big deal, especially in the playoffs. And he’s a much better defender than I think most people realize. He’d be a significant upgrade over K-Mart in my opinion.

      As much as I detest Bargnani I think a Tyson, Brand, Amare, Bargnani front court gives you a lot of options and flexibility in terms of how you want to play. It does seem like the minutes are getting squeezed already though. It seems to me that bringing in both those guys means you’re not planning on doing Melo at the 4 much if at all. That means if JR re-ups we’d be basically abandoning 2-PG lineups.

      It means we’re completely abandoning 2 PG lineups…considering the absolute lack of mention at any PG play in free agency so far, I think GG and Woody would be content with just Felton n’ Prigs.

    25. DRed

      Loathing: He was never touted as a rebounder. He’s a scorer…he’s Toni Kukoc.

      A scorer who makes 48% of his shots at the rim. Good lord.

    26. johnno

      Loathing: It means we’re completely abandoning 2 PG lineups…considering the absolute lack of mention at any PG play in free agency so far, I think GG and Woody would be content with just Felton n’ Prigs.

      Not sure what you’re talking about. I’ve heard rumors of them being linked to at least 5 FA PGs, inclucing, about an hour ago, I read that they are interested in some Euroleague PG named Bobby Brown.

    27. Loathing

      johnno: Not sure what you’re talking about.I’ve heard rumors of them being linked to at least 5 FA PGs, inclucing, about an hour ago, I read that they are interested in some Euroleague PG named Bobby Brown.

      You could just imagine all the New Edition songs played every time he gets on the court.

    28. johnno

      DRed: 4 double-doubles over 3 years. Good lord.

      If Melo and Tyson are averaging 17 rebounds a night like they did last season, it’s ok if he only gets 5 or 6 a game. In case you’re curious, Copeland and Novak COMBINED to grab 4 a game in a combined 35 minutes. I’m not too worried about Bargnani’s rebounding.

    29. DRed

      Loathing: You could just imagine all the New Edition songs played every time he gets on the court.

      Step back 3 with 20 seconds left on the shot clock? That’s his prerogative.

    30. Caleb

      Brand is easily better than K-Mart on both ends of the floor, and at this point, I’d lay better odds of him being healthy, too. Given our salary options at this point, he’d be a great signing.

      I did find some unintentional comedy in Zwerling’s piece,
      “Brand is attracted to the Knicks because of their winning culture and first-class organization.” [,Dolan said.]

      Have to give Grunwald credit; he’s done a terrific job beating the bushes for cheap, useful pickups (with or without Elton Brand). It’s the rot at the top.

    31. Hubert

      DCrockett17:
      Quick thought on Copeland.

      I’m not as convinced as some that he’s on the next flight out of town. A number of teams are allegedly expressing interest, and that’s obviously bad for NY. However, I think his age and the fact that he’s a bit of a one-hit wonder means that teams may flirt (e.g., Indiana*) but may not be interested in ponying up a deal NY can’t match. I think Cope is, all things equal, a slice of the mini-MLE guy.

      *If you’re Indiana you have little incentive to overpay for Copeland. Your core players are likely to still be in their primes as Miami fades. If you can add Copeland for a piece of the MLE it’s a no-brainer, but above that amount it starts to look like a bad gamble. (By that same logic though, Nate Robinson would be a better addition. They need bench points but preferably in the back court and they’d weaken Chicago simultaneously.)

      My big fear about Copeland is less Indiana or Milwaukee. It is that once some of the bigger dominoes start to fall, someone will have been left at the altar with a lot of money and motivation to add firepower. If, for instance, Dwight goes to Houston, the Mavs and the Lakers know they don’t have a direct answer for that. They may just look to add firepower, regardless of position. That could all of a sudden make Copeland a full MLE guy. That would suck for us.

      The more guys like Dunleavy Jr and (supposedly) Kyle Korver go for the mini-MLE, the less likely it becomes that Cope is a full mini-MLE guy, IMO.

      I would love to hijack the Nets move for Korver. I would rather have him than JR Smith.

    32. DRed

      johnno: If Melo and Tyson are averaging 17 rebounds a night like they did last season, it’s ok if he only gets 5 or 6 a game.In case you’re curious, Copeland and Novak COMBINED to grab 4 a game in a combined 35 minutes.I’m not too worried about Bargnani’s rebounding.

      Novak TS% 60. Cope TS% 58. Bargnani TS 48%. So we’re keeping the terrible rebounding and losing the highly efficient scoring. Phase 3 is profit.

    33. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      45 wins and an end-of-season trade demand from His Precious.

      There you have it, folks. There’s my prediction.

    34. ephus

      On Bargnani and rebounding, I am not worried about him not getting offensive rebounds. He plays on the perimeter and is not likely to be in position to grab many offensive boards. On the defensive boards, however, his production last year was anemic and most improve. Of all of the International Players last year, he had the second lowest rebound/48 of all forwards (only Pietrus was worse). And his defensive rebounding rate was below 3/game.

      If he can clear the defensive boards better than Novak and Copeland, he has a much better shot to stay on the floor than if he repeats last year.

    35. JK47

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      45 wins and an end-of-season trade demand from His Precious.

      There you have it, folks. There’s my prediction.

      You know, in my fantasy world, this would actually not be all that bad of a scenario.

      Stumble through the season, win 45 games, lots of discontent at MSG. Trade Melo in the offseason for some assets. Tank the 2014-2015 season. Get a lottery pick, which we are not allowed to trade away. Build around the assets and lottery pick with free agents from the 2015 class. Huzzah!

    36. d-mar

      I totally agree that Brand would be a definite upgrade over K-Mart. Opposing coaches salivate when Chandler and Martin are on the court at the same time, it means they only have to guard 3 players. Brand’s defense won’t be as intense, but then again, maybe he won’t pick up 4 fouls in 4 minutes like K-Mart does.

    37. Hubert

      Funny thing is, I think there actually is a legitimate reason to blast the Knicks this summer and for all of us to feel doomed enough to predict a 9 game dropoff. It’s just not the one being discussed.

      Carmelo Anthony’s injury from the Spring isn’t being treated.

      Does anyone (i.e. RuRu) know if he has some strange phobia of having procedures? It took him forever just to get his knee drained.

    38. JK47

      If you guys think Andrea Bargnani’s rebounding is somehow going to improve after 13,000 minutes in the NBA, you are really kidding yourselves. He is what he is– a seven-footer who really cannot cut it at the PF or C position. His best role is “glued to the end of the bench.”

      Maybe as a Novak-esque floor spacer who only shoots corner threes he might be all right, but since he’s coming off two seasons in which he shot .296 and .309 from out there, color me skeptical. The guy he’s replacing shot .472 and .425 from out there the last two seasons. But hey, this is an upgrade, right? #1 overall, you don’t get to be picked #1 overall unless you’re really talented. GO KNICKS

    39. er

      Hubert:
      Funny thing is, I think there actually is a legitimate reason to blast the Knicks this summer and for all of us to feel doomed enough to predict a 9 game dropoff.It’s just not the one being discussed.

      Carmelo Anthony’s injury from the Spring isn’t being treated.

      Does anyone (i.e. RuRu) know if he has some strange phobia of having procedures?It took him forever just to get his knee drained.

      I heard at P&T i believe, that it is better to let it heal on its own if possible. This is due to the fact that surgery there can really fuck with your shooting mechanics among other things. See Toney Douglas last year.

    40. er

      JK47: You know, in my fantasy world, this would actually not be all that bad of a scenario.

      Stumble through the season, win 45 games, lots of discontent at MSG.Trade Melo in the offseason for some assets.Tank the 2014-2015 season.Get a lottery pick, which we are not allowed to trade away.Build around the assets and lottery pick with free agents from the 2015 class.Huzzah!

      LOL! Name one current good team who is built this way. Assets for melo would be a buncha spare parts ie what denver got for melo. And you wont get as many picks for melo now because of the punitive cap and the fact that he will be 30

    41. JK47

      er: LOL!Name one current good team who is built this way. Assets for melo would be a buncha spare parts ie what denver got for melo. And you wont get as many picks for melo now because of the punitive cap and the fact that he will be 30

      Um, Denver? Miami?

    42. thenamestsam

      Can’t believe how optimistic you guys are. The only real question is whether the Knicks will even win a game next season. I think to maximize our chances we should rest everyone until we play Charlotte at home. That’s going to be our best shot and we are going to want to make sure we’re rested and healthy enough to give them our best shot at avoiding the dreaded 0-82.

    43. Hubert

      thenamestsam: My biggest takeaway from the playoffs was that having guys who are total non-factors on one end of the court is a much bigger deal in the playoffs than the regular season.

      Sad to say, but my biggest takeaway from the playoffs was that our coach wasn’t smart enough to figure this out until we were down 3-1 in the Pacers series!

      I’m still convinced that if our coach had just stuck with the 4-out attack instead of that stupid Martin-Chandler pairing, we’d have won that series.

      So I’m hopeful this Bargnani move addresses that. I’m hoping Coach understands his mistake now, too, but wants a player he trust more than Copeland to fill that role.

      Bargnani may not shoot as well in Copeland*, but what good are Copeland’s shooting numbers if the coach is scared to play him?

      * I’ve been trying to find shooting stats that isolate spot up shooting. Is there any site not named Synergy that provides this? I’m doing this because Copeland and Bargnani have very similar USG% numbers so there is no reason to think that Bargnani’s shooting % will benefit from lower USG. I’m assuming wide open jump shots made up a much bigger portion of Copeland’s USG than it did Bargnani’s, but I’d like to know the data. If anyone knows where I might be able to find this, I’d appreciate it.

    44. Hubert

      JK47:

      Maybe as a Novak-esque floor spacer who only shoots corner threes he might be all right, but since he’s coming off two seasons in which he shot .296 and .309 from out there, color me skeptical.The guy he’s replacing shot .472 and .425 from out there the last two seasons.

      Please see my question on the bottom of post 50. Are you getting that from Synergy, or is there a free site I can find stuff like this on?

    45. JK47

      Hubert: Please see my question on the bottom of post 50.Are you getting that from Synergy, or is there a free site I can find stuff like this on?

      Sorry, those were just overall 3-point percentages.

    46. EB

      Hubert:
      Funny thing is, I think there actually is a legitimate reason to blast the Knicks this summer and for all of us to feel doomed enough to predict a 9 game dropoff.It’s just not the one being discussed.

      Carmelo Anthony’s injury from the Spring isn’t being treated.

      Does anyone (i.e. RuRu) know if he has some strange phobia of having procedures?It took him forever just to get his knee drained.

      I do think he mentioned it when he didn’t get his knee drained, but of course that was also right after the Nuggets thrashed us on Melo’s return to the mile high city.

    47. er

      JK47: Um, Denver?Miami?

      lol at Denver. Miami signed 3 max players, which has nothing to do with what you said.

    48. Hubert

      DRed: Novak TS% 60.Cope TS% 58.Bargnani TS 48%.So we’re keeping the terrible rebounding and losing the highly efficient scoring.Phase 3 is profit.

      Actually, since you’re making such declarative statements, clearly you must have already down the work. Perhaps you can share with me the breakdown of TS% by category. Or do you think that comparing the results of contested three pointers when you’re the number 1 option to wide open spot up jump shots when you were the 4th option on the floor is an informative exercise?

    49. JK47

      er: lol at Denver. Miami signed 3 max players, which has nothing to do with what you said.

      1. Denver won 57 games and were 5th in the league in SRS. I wouldn’t LOL at that.
      2. I said to tank the 2015 and re-load with free agents, which is pretty much exactly what Miami did.

    50. flossy

      JK47: Maybe as a Novak-esque floor spacer who only shoots corner threes he might be all right, but since he’s coming off two seasons in which he shot .296 and .309 from out there, color me skeptical.

      Have you seen his shot chart from Grantland? For whatever reason, he only shoots 3s from the top of the key.

    51. Frank

      Too difficult to predict what’s going to happen next year when we don’t even know whether Prigs/Cope/JR are going to resign.

      Assuming Cope leaves and Prigs/JR come back, it’s hard to imagine this team will be much worse (ie. more than 2-3 wins less ) than last year’s team. Other than a hot stretch in the beginning of the year, Kidd was a liability. Camby didn’t play at all. Novak, while a very good shooter, probably doesn’t move the needle that much. But on the optimistic side, Shump wasn’t himself until April. Amare FWIW didn’t play until January and wasn’t himself until February. As a team this roster lost some countless number of games to injury. Some of that could be expected with the old guys and with Amare, but other guys like Shump, Melo, and Felton didn’t have much of an injury history before.

      Again assuming JR/Prigs are back, I’d be comfortable predicting 50-54 wins again. True that Indy/Chicago/BKN will be better, but Philly, Boston, Milwaukee, and probably Atlanta (unless they convince DH12 to come) will be worse.

    52. Hubert

      Man, this is a smart website. And unless Dogrufus is lurking, you guys are smart posters. I don’t understand the insistence to compare unlike shooting statistics. Does anyone really think that if you put Chris Copeland or Steve Novak in Andrea Bargnani’s role on those Raptors teams (and with his injuries, sometime) they would continue to have sterling shooting numbers?

      Even if Bargnani doesn’t shoot as well as Novak or Copeland (and I don’t expect him to) he can add value on offense because unlike those two guys, Bargnani can move by a fast-closing defender. And there are a whole lot of those in the playoffs. They tend to render great shooters moot.

      You know what else he can do that hardly no one is talking about? He can guard post players one on one. You know who we gave that job to in the playoffs? Carmelo Anthony. You don’t think it will help us getting Melo off the likes of David West and Carlos Boozer in the playoffs next year?

      Come on, guys.

    53. DRed

      Hubert: Actually, since you’re making such declarative statements, clearly you must have already down the work.Perhaps you can share with me the breakdown of TS% by category.Or do you think that comparing the results of contested three pointers when you’re the number 1 option to wide open spot up jump shots when you were the 4th option on the floor is an informative exercise?

      How do we know Bargnani was the #1 option in Toronto? He didn’t lead the team in usage. Is there a website that will list which players are what number option on the floor? I think it’s somewhat odd that a “4th option” player like Copeland would have a higher usage rate than a #1 option like Bargnani.

    54. er

      JK47: 1. Denver won 57 games and were 5th in the league in SRS.I wouldn’t LOL at that.
      2. I said to tank the 2015 and re-load with free agents, which is pretty much exactly what Miami did.

      1. Denver won 3 more games than the Knicks and lost to the 6th seed. 2 of the players who make more than 10 mil are Gallo and Javale McGee. I dont know how they get any better.

      2. ONLY way this would work is if you get all expirings for melo

    55. JK47

      @63
      The long-term plan of the Knicks’ FO is clearly to load up on 2015 free agents, which is why the Bargnani trade was made. The FO will probably never move Melo for assets, so this whole back-and-forth is kind of moot, but what if you move Melo for, say, two future first round picks? That works, no? Combine that with Stat, Chandler and Bargnani coming off the books and the Knicks could go nuts in the 2015 free agent period.

      Of course, none of this is going to happen, because the Knicks are probably going to give Melo another max contract that covers the decline phase of his career.

    56. Hubert

      Here’s a player card I’d like everyone to look at. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect Andrea Bargnani might be able to follow this kind of career arc.

      Not only did the shooting improve dramatically when he got off a bad team that used him too much, even his rebounding percentages spiked tremendously.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html

      (If you can’t open the link, it’s Lamar Odom.)

    57. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      45 wins and an end-of-season trade demand from His Precious.

      There you have it, folks. There’s my prediction.

      Didnt you predict 48 last year? All aboard the Knicks bandwagon folks, they’re winning 50+ for sure now

    58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Hubert:
      Man, this is a smart website.And unless Dogrufus is lurking, you guys are smart posters.I don’t understand the insistence to compare unlike shooting statistics.Does anyone really think that if you put Chris Copeland or Steve Novak in Andrea Bargnani’s role on those Raptors teams (and with his injuries, sometime) they would continue to have sterling shooting numbers?

      Even if Bargnani doesn’t shoot as well as Novak or Copeland (and I don’t expect him to) he can add value on offense because unlike those two guys, Bargnani can move by a fast-closing defender.And there are a whole lot of those in the playoffs.They tend to render great shooters moot.

      You know what else he can do that hardly no one is talking about?He can guard post players one on one.You know who we gave that job to in the playoffs?Carmelo Anthony.You don’t think it will help us getting Melo off the likes of David West and Carlos Boozer in the playoffs next year?

      Come on, guys.

      This kind of relativism is silly.

      It doesn’t matter who Bargnani has been paired with — he has been a bad shooter and a historically bad rebounder.

      I know that teammates affect player value, but come the fuck on, man. When the Knicks lose 10 games on their win total, there will be some kind of explanation mounted by ruruland and co., claiming a lack of synergy, using words like “front” and “ball movement” and “the Carmelo Anthony burden,” but the stark truth underneath will be as it is now: Andrea Bargnani is a great basketball player, but not by NBA standards.

      If he plays over 2000 minutes, expect this team to fail.

    59. Nick C.

      Hubert, Bargnani may be able to move past a defender but when he shoots 48% at the rim 1) is that really a good option 2) do you think it is because the other team is allowing him to? I cannot fathom any possible reason for this fetish with a guy that shoots 3s poorly and has that as the best part of his game. Maybe if they didn’t give up picks, which to me shows shortsightedness, or if Bargnani wasn’t considered the worst player in the league to get major minute I might not care but …

    60. DRed

      Hubert:

      Not only did the shooting improve dramatically when he got off a bad team that used him too much, even his rebounding percentages spiked tremendously.

      His rebounding percentages spiked dramatically when he started playing power forward. Bargnani already plays PF or Center. It’s possible that we can get Bargs to be a more efficient player on offense, but he’s going to be a terrible rebounder.

    61. Caleb

      JK47:
      .. the Knicks are probably going to give Melo another max contract that covers the decline phase of his career.

      Whatever else happens, this is a Shaq-Fu slam-dunk.

    62. JK47

      If he plays over 2000 minutes, expect this team to fail.

      I agree with this completely. The only hope I have for Bargnani is:
      1. He’s too injured to play a lot of minutes
      2. The coaches realize how bad he is and glue him to the bench

      Otherwise, his overall shittiness in all facets of the game will really hurt the team. Thinking of him as Steve Novak with the ability to put the ball on the floor and finish is tempting, but Novak has a .433 to .361 edge over Bargnani in career three-point shooting and almost a 100 point advantage in career TS%. I don’t think “role” is going to make up for all of that.

      And the rest of it– the embarrassing rebounding numbers, the utter lack of a clue when it comes to team defense, the “I don’t give a shit” aloof attitude… Those things are going to wear on people real fast, I promise.

    63. d-mar

      JK47:
      If he plays over 2000 minutes, expect this team to fail.

      I agree with this completely.The only hope I have for Bargnani is:
      1. He’s too injured to play a lot of minutes
      2. The coaches realize how bad he is and glue him to the bench

      Otherwise, his overall shittiness in all facets of the game will really hurt the team.Thinking of him as Steve Novak with the ability to put the ball on the floor and finish is tempting, but Novak has a .433 to .361 edge over Bargnani in career three-point shooting and almost a 100 point advantage in career TS%.I don’t think “role” is going to make up for all of that.

      And the rest of it– the embarrassing rebounding numbers, the utter lack of a clue when it comes to team defense, the “I don’t give a shit” aloof attitude… Those things are going to wear on people real fast, I promise.

      Wow, I didn’t realize we just signed Eddy Curry

    64. danvt

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: 45 wins and an end-of-season trade demand from His Precious.
      There you have it, folks. There’s my prediction.

      Awesome. This is awesome. I CANNOT WAIT TO SEE HOW THIS PREDICTION WORKS OUT.

    65. Hubert

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: This kind of relativism is silly.

      It doesn’t matter who Bargnani has been paired with — he has been a bad shooter and a historically bad rebounder.

      When he was healthy and paired with Chris Bosh, and had USG%’s of 22.5 and 22.7 he posted TS%’s of .559 and .552.

      When he was frequently injured for three years, the team’s #2 option was DeMar Derozen, his USG increased to 28.2 and 28.7, his TS% declined to .533 and .538.

      But you just keep on comparing apples to oranges because you think relativism is silly.

    66. Juany8

      flossy: Have you seen his shot chart from Grantland?For whatever reason, he only shoots 3s from the top of the key.

      Simply put, if you’re shooting a corner 3 it’s because someone created open space for you to get a shot off. Top of the key 3’s are for “shot creators” or just people who can be expected to just shoot 3’s at any time. I did some analysis on this a while back, it turns out that a player like Steve Nash can raise the percentage of a team’s corner 3 attempts without EVER shooting a corner 3 himself, even if his backup does shoot corner 3’s.

      In other words, the people bringing the ball up and having to make space for their own 3’s (other than someone like ray Allen running around screens) never take corner 3’s yet increase the chances of a team’s possession resulting in a corner 3. Basically players who draw extra defensive attention change their team’s shot distribution regardless of the shots they themselves take or their efficiency on those shots. This effect is mostly ignored by proponents of things like true shooing percentage, they don’t get that if Steve Novak is awesome at shooting 3’s, you want players who will help increase his number of 3 point attempts, something Novak has almost no control over (if his defender doesn’t want him to get an open 3, he won’t)

      Obviously you don’t want to be creating corner 3’s for poor shooters, so you need balance on a team. If you can get good shots but you have players passing up those looks, you need better shooters. If you have awesome shooters but none of them are getting open, you need someone who can handle the ball and make plays for others. Some awesome players are capable of doing both well, something Melo improved a lot on last year with his improved spot up shooting off the pick and roll.

    67. Loathing

      Hubert: When he was healthy and paired with Chris Bosh, and had USG%’s of 22.5 and 22.7 he posted TS%’s of .559 and .552.

      When he was frequently injured for three years, the team’s #2 option was DeMar Derozen, his USG increased to 28.2 and 28.7, his TS% declined to .533 and .538.

      But you just keep on comparing apples to oranges because you think relativism is silly.

      I lilke oranges. Oranges are yummy. I like apples too…they’re also yummy.

    68. danvt

      Hubert: Does anyone really think that if you put Chris Copeland or Steve Novak in Andrea Bargnani’s role on those Raptors teams (and with his injuries, sometime) they would continue to have sterling shooting numbers?

      Thanks

    69. Hubert

      Nick C.:
      Hubert, Bargnani may be able to move past a defender but when he shoots 48% at the rim 1) is that really a good option 2) do you think it is because the other team is allowing him to? I cannot fathom any possible reason for this fetish with a guy that shoots 3s poorly and has that as the best part of his game. Maybe if they didn’t give up picks, which to me shows shortsightedness, or if Bargnani wasn’t considered the worst player in the league to get major minute I might not care but …

      He shot 48% at the rim last year, as per the Goldsberry article. Is that indicative of his career, or is he cherry picking?

      I’m looking at his 82games.com player page from 2010 and he seems like a decent player from in close to me.

      http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR12.HTM

      Also, there is a difference between shots that a center takes at the rim and shots that a cutter would take.

      And finally, he doesn’t need to take a shot at the rim to be effective in that situation. If he simply puts the ball on the floor, moves by a closing defender, draws help, and passes, he’s giving us much more than Novak could in that situation. (And that’s a situation we will see A LOT in the playoffs.)

    70. JK47

      One ray of hope when it comes to Bargnani is that he almost NEVER shoots corner threes. Last year he was 2 for 8 on that shot in over 1000 minutes. The year before he was 0 for 2, again in over 1000 minutes. The year before that he was 1 for 2, in over 2000 minutes.

      It’s almost mind-boggling how he never ever ever takes that shot. That’s 3 for 12 on corner threes over three seasons spanning 4000 minutes. Look at his shot charts on B-R; they will hurt your eyeballs.

    71. thenamestsam

      Hubert:

      You know what else he can do that hardly no one is talking about?He can guard post players one on one.You know who we gave that job to in the playoffs?Carmelo Anthony.You don’t think it will help us getting Melo off the likes of David West and Carlos Boozer in the playoffs next year?

      Come on, guys.

      Do we really want Melo chasing around the likes of Paul George and Luol Deng in the playoffs next year? To me at least it seems pretty obvious that Melo is significantly better as a post defender than he is at a defender in space who is asked to navigate picks, bump big guys rolling down the lane and stay close to spot-up shooters. Yes, it may be the case that playing PF for a whole season puts extra wear and tear on him that isn’t worth it, but I don’t really think Melo defending wings instead of power forwards is a benefit of this trade. I’d put that firmly in the negative column.

    72. Hubert

      DRed: How do we know Bargnani was the #1 option in Toronto?He didn’t lead the team in usage.Is there a website that will list which players are what number option on the floor?I think it’s somewhat odd that a “4th option” player like Copeland would have a higher usage rate than a #1 option like Bargnani.

      Dude, he led his team in USG from 2010-2012. He missed 47 games last year. Why would you choose to focus on that year?

    73. Hubert

      thenamestsam: Do we really want Melo chasing around the likes of Paul George and Luol Deng in the playoffs next year? To me at least it seems pretty obvious that Melo is significantly better as a post defender than he is at a defender in space who is asked to navigate picks, bump big guys rolling down the lane and stay close to spot-up shooters. Yes, it may be the case that playing PF for a whole season puts extra wear and tear on him that isn’t worth it, but I don’t really think Melo defending wings instead of power forwards is a benefit of this trade. I’d put that firmly in the negative column.

      Why would he have to guard Paul George or Luol Deng? He can guard Lance Stephenson or Mike Dunleavy instead. Shumpert is going to guard the best wing.

    74. Juany8

      JK47:
      One ray of hope when it comes to Bargnani is that he almost NEVER shoots corner threes.Last year he was 2 for 8 on that shot in over 1000 minutes.The year before he was 0 for 2, again in over 1000 minutes.The year before that he was 1 for 2, in over 2000 minutes.

      It’s almost mind-boggling how he never ever ever takes that shot.That’s 3 for 12 on corner threes over three seasons spanning 4000 minutes.Look at his shot charts on B-R; they will hurt your eyeballs.

      I know it’s long but read my post above. Quite a few top options take virtually zero corner shots.

    75. thenamestsam

      Hubert: Why would he have to guard Paul George or Luol Deng?He can guard Lance Stephenson or Mike Dunleavy instead.Shumpert is going to guard the best wing.

      Okay that’s fine. My point stands. Melo is a good post defender. He is a bad perimeter defender. Post defense risks a lot of wear and tear, but perimeter defense takes a lot of energy. It seems far from obvious to me that Melo getting to defend wings is a positive step.

    76. Juany8

      thenamestsam: Do we really want Melo chasing around the likes of Paul George and Luol Deng in the playoffs next year? To me at least it seems pretty obvious that Melo is significantly better as a post defender than he is at a defender in space who is asked to navigate picks, bump big guys rolling down the lane and stay close to spot-up shooters. Yes, it may be the case that playing PF for a whole season puts extra wear and tear on him that isn’t worth it, but I don’t really think Melo defending wings instead of power forwards is a benefit of this trade. I’d put that firmly in the negative column.

      On the other hand, do you really want Melo to be proving help at the rim and being put in pick and rolls as the “big”? Traditionally, centers and power forwards have more defensive responsibilities that wings, especially in today’s pick and roll league. Not that I want bargs defending in space, but Melo will have to expend less effort on defense against bruising bigs in the post, and David west and boozer could both be factors this season.

    77. Hubert

      JK47:
      One ray of hope when it comes to Bargnani is that he almost NEVER shoots corner threes.Last year he was 2 for 8 on that shot in over 1000 minutes.The year before he was 0 for 2, again in over 1000 minutes.The year before that he was 1 for 2, in over 2000 minutes.

      It’s almost mind-boggling how he never ever ever takes that shot.That’s 3 for 12 on corner threes over three seasons spanning 4000 minutes.Look at his shot charts on B-R; they will hurt your eyeballs.

      Thanks, man. I didn’t even know that section existed!

      Armed with that, I can answer my own question to Nick C.

      Here’s Bargnani’s shooting % at the rim for the three seasons prior to last year:

      2011-12: .616
      2010-11: .584
      2009-10: .664

      I think it’s fair to say the 48% he shot in the year he missed 47 games with injury was an anomaly and shouldn’t be used as a likely predictor.

    78. Nick C.

      Fair enough it was just alarmingly bad. We need shot makers not shot takers. I can agree that a dribble and a pass when covered is better that stop and wait for Melo or whoever to come get the ball like mommy cleaning a boo boo.

      Hubert: He shot 48% at the rim last year, as per the Goldsberry article.Is that indicative of his career, or is he cherry picking?

      I’m looking at his 82games.com player page from 2010 and he seems like a decent player from in close to me.

      http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR12.HTM

      Also, there is a difference between shots that a center takes at the rim and shots that a cutter would take.

      And finally, he doesn’t need to take a shot at the rim to be effective in that situation.If he simply puts the ball on the floor, moves by a closing defender, draws help, and passes, he’s giving us much more than Novak could in that situation.(And that’s a situation we will see A LOT in the playoffs.)

    79. nicos

      DRed: A scorer who makes 48% of his shots at the rim.Good lord.

      I wonder where Goldsberry got that 48% number- hoopsdata had him at 57.4% at the rim. He was 46.9% from 3-9 feet but he actually took more at the rim than from there so I can’t see how those numbers work out. AB isn’t a great finisher by any stretch of the imagination but he’s been pretty consistently between 57-60% at the rim. Also very interesting to see that he basically took no corner threes (at least last year). If that’s indicative of his career shot distribution that makes his career 36% number look an awful lot better- he’s going to be parked in the corner in plenty of sets here so you’d think those %s will look a lot better. Also, if he really can shoot 40% from the left wing, that’s going to give Melo a really easy outlet out of double teams when he’s on the left block and basically assures that the double team will have to come from the baseline which should open up the middle once the ball gets swung. Alas, I see no similar silver lining in his rebounding numbers.

    80. Nick C.

      Geez I wish could edit my post to say the 48% seems like an anomaly. This roller coaster of “win now” last year re: Kidd, etc. to this year’s unload and to re-load in 2015 after several years of the the same cycles must be making me dizzy.

    81. Hubert

      thenamestsam: Okay that’s fine. My point stands. Melo is a good post defender. He is a bad perimeter defender. Post defense risks a lot of wear and tear, but perimeter defense takes a lot of energy. It seems far from obvious to me that Melo getting to defend wings is a positive step.

      It’s just the flexibility. It doesn’t have to be black or white. Flexibility is a great thing to have. We didn’t have enough of it last year.

      Melo’s worst games tended to be when he was getting banged in the post by West, Boozer, Gasol, and such. On days like that, I’d love to give him an easier assignment.

    82. danvt

      Hubert: When he was healthy and paired with Chris Bosh, and had USG%’s of 22.5 and 22.7 he posted TS%’s of .559 and .552.

      This is helpful.

      Hey, btw, when Bosh left, what did the Raps do with his cap #? I mean, what was the thought process with that roster?

    83. Hubert

      I’m just surprised a lot of people here whose opinions I really respect seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that we are going to completely change this guy’s role to increase his chances of success.

      I’m not arguing he wasn’t shit in Toronto. I just think there is a chance that they were using him incorrectly, out of necessity, because they had no other options. That they looked at him as a #1 pick and tried to shoehorn him into a role that he wasn’t suited for because they misjudged him. We’re not going to do that.

      There are reasons to be optimistic here. There are a lot of talented high draft picks that became decent players in the second stages of their careers when they finally got out of bad situations. I already mentioned Odom. Check out Chauncey Billups’s shooting numbers pre-Detroit vs post-Detroit (they’re ridiculous!):

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/billuch01.html

    84. thenamestsam

      Hubert: It’s just the flexibility.It doesn’t have to be black or white.Flexibility is a great thing to have.We didn’t have enough of it last year.

      Melo’s worst games tended to be when he was getting banged in the post by West, Boozer, Gasol, and such.On days like that, I’d love to give him an easier assignment.

      Don’t disagree with you at all on this. From earlier today:

      thenamestsam:

      As much as I detest Bargnani I think a Tyson, Brand, Amare, Bargnani front court gives you a lot of options and flexibility in terms of how you want to play.

      Your earlier post seemed to be more about the benefit of Melo defending wings instead of bigs than the benefit of additional flexibility on the front line. In terms of flexibility we’re very much in agreement. We will have a lot of diversity in terms of the kinds of teams we can put out there with that frontcourt. Unfortunately I don’t trust our coach to utilize that bevy of tactical options well at all after what we saw against Indiana. But I will remain hopeful on that count.

    85. EB

      Hubert:
      I’m just surprised a lot of people here whose opinions I really respect seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that we are going to completely change this guy’s role to increase his chances of success.

      I’m not arguing he wasn’t shit in Toronto.I just think there is a chance that they were using him incorrectly, out of necessity, because they had no other options.That they looked at him as a #1 pick and tried to shoehorn him into a role that he wasn’t suited for because they misjudged him. We’re not going to do that.

      There are reasons to be optimistic here.There are a lot of talented high draft picks that became decent players in the second stages of their careers when they finally got out of bad situations.I already mentioned Odom.Check out Chauncey Billups’s shooting numbers pre-Detroit vs post-Detroit (they’re ridiculous!):

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/billuch01.html

      Yeah but is that the rule or the exception?

    86. Caleb

      Hubert:
      I’m just surprised a lot of people here whose opinions I really respect seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that we are going to completely change this guy’s role to increase his chances of success.

      I’m not arguing he wasn’t shit in Toronto.I just think there is a chance that they were using him incorrectly, out of necessity, because they had no other options.That they looked at him as a #1 pick and tried to shoehorn him into a role that he wasn’t suited for because they misjudged him. We’re not going to do that.

      There are reasons to be optimistic here.There are a lot of talented high draft picks that became decent players in the second stages of their careers when they finally got out of bad situations.I already mentioned Odom.Check out Chauncey Billups’s shooting numbers pre-Detroit vs post-Detroit (they’re ridiculous!):

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/billuch01.html

      These are crazy comparisons… Billups was oft-injured his first few years and Odom is a totally different player, with a lot of value as a defender, rebounder and playmaker even if he never scored.

      I am not 100% down on Bargs as a player – yes, usage rate is (somewhat) inversely correlated with efficiency, and as a 2nd or 3rd scorer he might be pretty good, but he is pathetic as a defender and rebounder. And we showed our usual moronic negotiating skills by throwing in draft picks – any other team in the league, the Raps would’ve had to pay to take him off their hands.

    87. JK47

      Hubert:
      I’m just surprised a lot of people here whose opinions I really respect seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that we are going to completely change this guy’s role to increase his chances of success.

      I’m not arguing he wasn’t shit in Toronto.I just think there is a chance that they were using him incorrectly, out of necessity, because they had no other options.That they looked at him as a #1 pick and tried to shoehorn him into a role that he wasn’t suited for because they misjudged him. We’re not going to do that.

      There are reasons to be optimistic here.There are a lot of talented high draft picks that became decent players in the second stages of their careers when they finally got out of bad situations.I already mentioned Odom.Check out Chauncey Billups’s shooting numbers pre-Detroit vs post-Detroit (they’re ridiculous!):

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/billuch01.html

      But the flip side of the argument is that the rest of Bargnani’s game– the terrible rebounding, the clueless help defense– is not likely to improve. Especially since the guy seems like a big lazy doofus. The guy is not just soft, he’s baby thighs soft, nahmsayin. I don’t think it’s being pessimistic to say that if he’s a mainstay of the rotation and racks up 2000 minutes he’s going to be a large net negative.

    88. Hubert

      Hubert:
      Hell, imagine if THCJ was a Mavs fans when they picked up Jason Terry at age 27 after he bombed in Atlanta (“We’re going to win 42 games if this guy plays 2000 minutes!):

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html

      I realize not everyone can open links (or wants to) so let me highlight: Jason Terry had a .519 TS% in 03-04 (his 5th season in the league) with Atlanta, at age 26, with .08 WS/48.

      Next year, on Dallas, .606 TS% (.057 higher than his career high) with .171 WS/48.

    89. thenamestsam

      Juany8: On the other hand, do you really want Melo to be proving help at the rim and being put in pick and rolls as the “big”? Traditionally, centers and power forwards have more defensive responsibilities that wings, especially in today’s pick and roll league. Not that I want bargs defending in space, but Melo will have to expend less effort on defense against bruising bigs in the post, and David west and boozer could both be factors this season.

      I’m in no way denying that there are downsides to Melo defending in the post, just pointing out that there are also upsides. It’s true that Melo’s help defense was generally sad along the back line last year, but from what I’ve seen it’s every bit as bad as a wing and in pick and roll coverage help D from wings is important too. They have to bump that big rolling to the rim and then get back to shooters. In my opinion Melo struggles with that, both from an effort perspective and because it requires quick reactions and good instincts on defense, the lack of which are a big part of the reason his back-line help is also poor.

    90. Hubert

      Caleb: These are crazy comparisons… Billups was oft-injured his first few years and Odom is a totally different player, with a lot of value as a defender, rebounder and playmaker even if he never scored.

      I am not 100% down on Bargs as a player – yes, usage rate is (somewhat) inversely correlated with efficiency, and as a 2nd or 3rd scorer he might be pretty good, but he is pathetic as a defender and rebounder.And we showed our usual moronic negotiating skills by throwing in draft picks – any other team in the league, the Raps would’ve had to pay to take him off their hands.

      There are two separate issues:

      1. Were we stupid to give up the pick? (we were, I don’t disagree).

      2. Is he going to be terrible next year?

      I’m only arguing point 2.

      I don’t think the comparisons are that crazy. Chauncey only had one year lost to injury (his second year in Denver). In 4 of the other 5 years he only missed 3-5 games (perhaps you were looking at the 45 games played in 99 without realizing it was the lockout year).

    91. Z

      Hubert:
      One thing you have to understand: Dolan abuses the media.They get back at him by trashing his team at every stop.We’re caught in the crossfire of mindless groupthink…

      Perhaps, but the one constant over the past 15 years is Dolan. Reporters, editors, even entire newspapers, have come and gone. The man is a cancer to this franchise, and if you think there’s a media conspiring against the team, you may be right, but it is for a very specific, very preventable reason: he’s a dipshit who single-handedly brought it upon his team.

      Hubert: Dude, he led his team in USG from 2010-2012.He missed 47 games last year.Why would you choose to focus on that year?

      It’s better to look at recent years rather than at peak years. Players tend to improve, plateau, get injured, and decline. Just like with Amar’e, it’s possible that he will revert back to his prime, but it is highly unlikely. The difference between being optimistic about Amar’e reverting and Bargiani reverting is that prime-Amar’e is a really good player and prime Bargiani isn’t.

      Hubert: Flexibility is a great thing to have.We didn’t have enough of it last year.

      Woodson seems to have proven that flexibility complicates things, no?

    92. Hubert

      It’s better to look at recent years rather than at peak years. Players tend to improve, plateau, get injured, and decline.

      Understood. In that specific case we were just talking about whether or not AB was operating mainly as the top option in Toronto. I think highlighting last year, where Rudy Gay and his jacked up USG came in for the second half while AB was injured and pointing to the fact that Gay had a higher USG as evidence that AB was not the top option when he played in Toronto was, well, misleading.

    93. DRed

      JK47: But the flip side of the argument is that the rest of Bargnani’s game– the terrible rebounding, the clueless help defense– is not likely to improve.Especially since the guy seems like a big lazy doofus.The guy is not just soft, he’s baby thighs soft, nahmsayin.I don’t think it’s being pessimistic to say that if he’s a mainstay of the rotation and racks up 2000 minutes he’s going to be a large net negative.

      You saying he’s human baby powder in the flesh, son?

      There’s no reason to be optimistic about Bargnani. He’s been somewhere between bad and terrible his whole career. It’s possible he might score more efficiently next year in a different role. That would make him a bad player because of his rebounding and deffensive deficiencies. Now, it’s certainly possible he’ll become a vastly different player, but it’s not likely at all and if you’re optimistic about the signing you’re being willfully blind.

    94. cgreene

      The cherry picking of stats by those trying to prove the AB will definitively be a terrible offensive player next year on a different team disproves the points. Using last years stats to say he ca t shoot 3s or at the rim but career stats to say he can’t rebound. Can’t we at least agree to use career stats only for purposes of this discussion? We have no idea how injured he was last year. If last season is a sole indicator of future performance then we are totally screwed… with Tyson Chandler.

      Also the Bulls of course are getting applauded for the Dunleavy signing. Anyone bother to check his career stats? I did. 6 of his first 9 seasons his TS% was below .540. Then he became efficient. Same w Billips. Same w Odom. Same w 100 other guys.

    95. Caleb

      re: Billups, as I remember he had a constant string of injuries, even though he only missed a big chunk of one season. But aside from that, his improvement was pretty steady, if gradual – the main is that he learned to hit 3s. AB, on the other hand, came in as a shooter but couldn’t do much else.

      It’s true, in his best seasons he was a reasonably good scorer, but the rest of his game is Curry-like and his health record makes me pessimistic about a comeback. In a spot role he could be useful – he’s more versatile than Novak – but as long as we’re throwing around draft picks, we could have done a *lot* better.

    96. Caleb

      If we had signed Bargs as a FA for the mini-MLE we would be getting applauded, too.

    97. jon abbey

      last summer THCJ called Andray Blatche the worst player in the league, and that worked out very well for Brooklyn. I am far from a Bargnani fan, but maybe there’s something in that comparison (not playing style, but ability to bounce back when put in a lesser role in a better organization)?

    98. DRed

      jon abbey:
      last summer THCJ called Andray Blatche the worst player in the league, and that worked out very well for Brooklyn. I am far from a Bargnani fan, but maybe there’s something in that comparison (not playing style, but ability to bounce back when put in a lesser role in a better organization)?

      Of course it’s possible. That’s not the issue. The issue is how likely is it.

    99. er

      I love Knick pessimist fan perspective. Lets just ask ourselves a few questions.

      1) Who have been his head coaches ?
      Ans. Sam Mitchell, Jay Triano, Dwayne Casey………..ummm hmm

      2)Has he ever had any “real” alpha dog teammates such as Chandler or Melo to push him and not settle for less?
      Ans. Chris Bosh? Calderon?????????

      3)Has he ever been in a real winning environment.?

      These things have not happened in his career. Maybe a change will be for the better……see blatche or lamar odom

    100. thenamestsam

      DRed: Of course it’s possible.That’s not the issue.The issue is how likely is it.

      Exactly this. And it goes to Hubert’s point as well. Of course it’s not impossible that Bargnani turns a corner next year. The guy does have talent and there are lost of example of guys who changed roles and became much more valuable players. But that argument can apply to nearly every player in the NBA. I still think in general it’s probably a better strategy to acquire good players than to acquire bad players and hope that a change in role will make them good players, but obviously the price for good players is higher than the price for bad players. I’d say we paid too much for the chances that Bargnani becomes a good player in a new role. But it’s all about degrees here.

    101. Juany8

      DRed: You saying he’s human baby powder in the flesh, son?

      There’s no reason to be optimistic about Bargnani.He’s been somewhere between bad and terrible his whole career.It’s possible he might score more efficiently next year in a different role.That would make him a bad player because of his rebounding and deffensive deficiencies.Now, it’s certainly possible he’ll become a vastly different player, but it’s not likely at all and if you’re optimistic about the signing you’re being willfully blind.

      What you’re missing is that if bargs does become more efficient, he becomes a massive upgrade over Novak. No matter how you spin his numbers, cope and Novak were even worse at defense and rebounding. Since camby didn’t play, a bargs that shoots around 56 ts% with far more versatility offensively and defensively is a nice upgrade. You’re attacking a straw man, nobody thinks bargs is going to be a nice player, some people are just making the case that this move has mostly upside for the next 2 years considering Novak and camby contributed nothing in the playoffs. If bargs does get motivated and provides floor spacing with some actual offensive skills, this trade is a big win for these 2 years. Afterwards the picks get dicey and I don’t really like it, but I really don’t see how the Knicks would be hurt by this in the short term.

    102. Z

      er:
      Maybe a change will be for the better……see blatche or lamar odom

      Yeah, we said “wait until D’Antoni gets his hands on Sergio Rodriguez”.

      Count him as one of the dozens and dozens of players that a change of coach/change of system didn’t make better. (But even if your contention was true, what does Mike Woodson have on his resume that makes him stand out from the Raptors coaches you list? Sam Mitchell won coach of the year while coaching Bargnani!)

    103. Juany8

      DRed: Of course it’s possible.That’s not the issue.The issue is how likely is it.

      The issue isn’t that simple, it’s not important that bargs suddenly gets good like billups and odom did, just that he’s an improvement over Novak and a pick that projects to maybe, MAYBE be a rotation player. Most late picks don’t pan out, which has to be accounted for when talking about their value. Teams used to regularly sell those picks until the new CBA made it impossible to trade cash considerations a bunch. So with a change of scenery and a reduced role, can a talented player go from being a scrub to being passable? It’s not that unlikely, there have been cases of talented players going from bad to awesome, much less 8th men suddenly having value.

      I don’t think assuming a talented player gets his shit together is a bigger gamble than assuming a pick in the 20’s is going to play multiple years in the NBA. Even the spurs have plenty of picks that never even got playing time, they had more success picking up Boris diaw at his nadir than they had with some of their first round picks in recent years. I don’t like how much we gave up and think it’s a sideways trade overall, but acting like this was some suicidal move by the Knicks is ridiculous. If Amare is healthy and we get brand or bring Kmart back, bargs won’t even have much time to play. Which is why I hate giving up the picks lol, but for this year I don’t see the downside

    104. Z

      As a resident Pessimist, I am not even against the trade. I think trading garbage for garbage is fine if it makes you younger and gives you cap-flexibility moving forward, which this trade did for a team that should benefit from both.

      That said, I certainly don’t think Bargnani will be a good player as a Knick. But he won’t be the reason the Knicks don’t win a championship during the Dolan era either, and neither will that 2016 draft pick.

    105. thenamestsam

      Kudos on your last two posts Juany. Very accurate overall take on the trade in my opinion.

    106. DRed

      Juany8: What you’re missing is that if bargs does become more efficient, he becomes a massive upgrade over Novak. No matter how you spin his numbers, cope and Novak were even worse at defense and rebounding. Since camby didn’t play, a bargs that shoots around 56 ts% with far more versatility offensively and defensively is a nice upgrade. You’re attacking a straw man, nobody thinks bargs is going to be a nice player, some people are just making the case that this move has mostly upside for the next 2 years considering Novak and camby contributed nothing in the playoffs.

      Novak has always been a much, much more efficient player on offense than Bargs. It’s not even close. Say we reduce Bargs usage next season and he sets a career high by scoring with a 56TS%. That’s still well below Steve’s career average. Granted, it would be with a higher usage, so their may be some value to that, but is it enough to make up for the difference in efficiency? I think Novak’s playoff performance has made people forget what a terrific shooter the guy was for us.

      As for defense, Novak’s on/off numbers on the Knicks were vastly superior to Bargnani’s. It really doesn’t require much spin at all to think Novak was better on defense. Last year the Raptors were 4 points worse on defense with Bargnani on the floor. Fine, he was hurt last year. In 2011 they were 3 points worse on defense, and 5.5 points worse in 2010. Defense is complicated-it may be that the Knicks were just really good at hiding Novak somehow, but Bargnani seems to be an awful player on defense and we’re probably going to have to do the same thing for him that we did for Novak.

      Finally, the problem with comparing Novak and Bargnani is that they don’t play the same position.

    107. Loathing

      Z:
      As a resident Pessimist, I am not even against the trade. I think trading garbage for garbage is fine if it makes you younger and gives you cap-flexibility moving forward, which this trade did for a team that should benefit from both.

      That said, I certainly don’t think Bargnani will be a good player as a Knick. But he won’t be the reason the Knicks don’t win a championship during the Dolan era either, and neither will that 2016 draft pick.

      What I’ve been sayin’ all along. This is a worst case scenario we’re looking at…anything better is gravy.

    108. er

      Z: Yeah, we said “wait until D’Antoni gets his hands on Sergio Rodriguez”.

      Count him as one of the dozens and dozens of players that a change of coach/change of system didn’t make better. (But even if your contention was true, what does Mike Woodson have on his resume that makes him stand out from the Raptors coaches you list? Sam Mitchell won coach of the year while coaching Bargnani!)

      For woody i would say melo and jr. They both played outta their minds for woodson for the most part.

    109. JK47

      Finally, the problem with comparing Novak and Bargnani is that they don’t play the same position.

      Yeah, this is the issue I have with Bargnani. You want to use him as a freakish 7-foot tall small forward, fine. But when you use him at power forward or center, you have a guy on the floor who does not do power forward or center-y things. Maybe the Knicks re-sign Kenyon Martin and acquire a viable backup center who will actually get minutes, but as of now the Knicks don’t have enough players who will put a body on somebody, aggressively go after rebounds, give smart help defense, protect the rim, etc.

    110. Frank

      btw, you know which 7 footer shot a lower FG% than Bargnani at the rim in 12-13? Roy Hibbert at 47% per NBA.com

      Anyway, whatever. Let’s just see how it plays out for Pete’s sake. I actually think a Tyson/Bargnani or Brand/Bargnani front line might be pretty effective.

      btw – now that Martell Webster has signed for essentially a 4 year EB max, does anyone think that JR would ever agree to anything less? I happen to think Martell is a better value than JR is, if only because he brings less off-court baggage and unpredictability than JR does.

      how do people feel about, say, a S&T of JR (at 4 years / 22MM) to PHX for Dudley? Dudley also expires in 14-15. Think PHX would go for it? If only for the beautiful poetry of JR and Beasley on the same side?

    111. thenamestsam

      Frank:
      btw, you know which 7 footer shot a lower FG% than Bargnani at the rim in 12-13?Roy Hibbert at 47% per NBA.com

      Anyway, whatever. Let’s just see how it plays out for Pete’s sake.I actually think a Tyson/Bargnani or Brand/Bargnani front line might be pretty effective.

      btw – now that Martell Webster has signed for essentially a 4 year EB max, does anyone think that JR would ever agree to anything less? I happen to think Martell is a better value than JR is, if only because he brings less off-court baggage and unpredictability than JR does.

      how do people feel about, say, a S&T of JR (at 4 years / 22MM) to PHX for Dudley? Dudley also expires in 14-15. Think PHX would go for it?If only for the beautiful poetry of JR and Beasley on the same side?

      PHX has more than enough cap space to pay JR that without sending us Dudley, no?

    112. Z

      er: For woody i would say melo and jr.They both played outta their minds for woodson for the most part.

      JR Smith definitely played out of his mind, but I don’t think that’s what you mean :)

      But, seriously, JR Smith has played no better under Woodson than he did in Denver by any metric except that he’s turned the ball over marginally less.

      As for Anthony, yes, he had a career year under Woodson. But if Woodson deserves credit for that, shouldn’t he also deserve credit for making guys like Novak and Chandler worse during his tenure?

    113. er

      Z: JR Smith definitely played out of his mind, but I don’t think that’s what you mean :)

      But, seriously, JR Smith has played no better under Woodson than he did in Denver by any metric except that he’s turned the ball over marginally less.

      As for Anthony, yes, he had a career year under Woodson. But if Woodson deserves credit for that, shouldn’t he also deserve credit for making guys like Novak and Chandler worse during his tenure?

      Novak wasnt worse he was just useless lol. Tyson seems to just be injured constantly. That may be due to the fact that we had no back up C last year. Melo playing well i actually think was a confluence of mental and physical events which include son of wood

    114. Unreason

      I am most interested in his fit with the team/system and his durability. I don’t care too much what his efficiency numbers etc. turn out to be. If his efficiency goes way up but he has a bad effect on the way the whole system works or he can’t take some of the pressure off the overburdened/fragile stars, then the he won’t have a positive impact.

      I don’t pretend to have any answers, but these are my questions:
      Will he help or hurt the ball movement that was key to the good stretches of offense: when people were getting open, taking and hitting their 3s or driving if they got a mismatch?
      Will he be a weak link in Woodson’s switch-crazy D?
      Will he work hard?
      Will he stay healthy?
      Will he win Woodson over enough to help prevent Amare, Melo, TC from running out of gas or being injured by the post season?

    115. Brian Cronin

      Wow, apparently the Knicks will be having STAT on a 20 minutes per game limit next season and he’ll perhaps not play in back-to-back games. Ouch.

    116. thenamestsam

      Eric Bledsoe and Caron Butler will go to the Suns, Jared Dudley and JJ Redick to the Clippers and 2 2nd-round picks to Bucks, sources tell Y.

      Love that for the Clippers. That’s now a very nice wing rotation to go with the Chris Paul/Blake duo. And a real coach? That team has a legit shot to win the West in my extremely premature opinion.

    117. er

      Unreason: Will he work hard?
      Will h

      Great questions. I think as long as he works hard and is relatively healthy we should be ok but thats just IMO

    118. Brian Cronin

      It is almost insane how good that trade is for the Clippers. Damn, Redick and Dudley are each better than the guy they’re replacing.

    119. Loathing

      Found our ancient to sign: the Bulls will waive Rip Hamilton, according to Yahoo.

    120. danvt

      Wait, who’s better than Bledsoe?

      Brian Cronin: It is almost insane how good that trade is for the Clippers. Damn, Redick and Dudley are each better than the guy they’re replacing.

    121. danvt

      Yeah, these are the questions to be asked. I would add one. Can he play Novak’s game? I mean, will he hit an open look on a catch and shoot? If he doesn’t do it with at least close to the same efficiency then we’ve lost on this trade. If he comes close and also does some other things on offense and can get a hand up in the air against a 5 and not get totally pushed around then maybe we’ve won on this trade. But I think you make a good point that the past is gone and we have an athlete with some skills that’s going to need to be healthy and work hard fit in on Melo’s fucking team.

      Unreason: I am most interested in his fit with the team/system and his durability. I don’t care too much what his efficiency numbers etc. turn out to be. If his efficiency goes way up but he has a bad effect on the way the whole system works or he can’t take some of the pressure off the overburdened/fragile stars, then the he won’t have a positive impact.
      I don’t pretend to have any answers, but these are my questions:
      Will he help or hurt the ball movement that was key to the good stretches of offense: when people were getting open, taking and hitting their 3s or driving if they got a mismatch?
      Will he be a weak link in Woodson’s switch-crazy D?
      Will he work hard?
      Will he stay healthy?
      Will he win Woodson over enough to help prevent Amare, Melo, TC from running out of gas or being injured by the post season?

    122. thenamestsam

      Brian Cronin:
      It is almost insane how good that trade is for the Clippers. Damn, Redick and Dudley are each better than the guy they’re replacing.

      Nice move for the Suns too honestly. Dudley was wasted on that type of team and grabbing Bledsoe + an expiring for him is a nice use of that chip. The Bucks just come out looking dumb in my opinion. Not that grabbing a pick for Reddick is a bad thing, but man giving up Harris to rent him for a few months so you could lock down the right to get swept by Miami is ugly.

    123. ruruland

      FWIW, I have a contact who works with Copeland who is not directly affiliated with the Knicks (though he works with JR and Melo, too, and will be doing camp in the Caribbean) who says he is probably gone but that NY was working on “finding a way” to keep him, and how those things “happen all the time in that business, especially in NY.”

      That conversation was about two weeks ago now, so it could be low value info as things could have changed.

      Media reports have basically said that Copeland would consider taking less to sign with NY, but how much and what role would he need are the questions.

      That contact was the way I was going to interview Copeland, but it fell through for now.

    124. JK47

      Brian Cronin:
      Wow, apparently the Knicks will be having STAT on a 20 minutes per game limit next season and he’ll perhaps not play in back-to-back games. Ouch.

      Hahahaa. Seriously, I just have to laugh at this point. Jowles’ prediction is looking better and better.

    125. ruruland

      thenamestsam: I’m in no way denying that there are downsides to Melo defending in the post, just pointing out that there are also upsides. It’s true that Melo’s help defense was generally sad along the back line last year, but from what I’ve seen it’s every bit as bad as a wing and in pick and roll coverage help D from wings is important too. They have to bump that big rolling to the rim and then get back to shooters. In my opinion Melo struggles with that, both from an effort perspective and because it requires quick reactions and good instincts on defense, the lack of which are a big part of the reason his back-line help is also poor.

      part of it is that Melo actually makes the good rotation some of the time, diagnoses the play and is in position, but simply doesn’t have the length to contest.

    126. JK47

      So, if STAT is only playing 20 minutes a game, and JR Smith leaves, guess who is our second scoring option?

      That’s right, Andrea “New Role” Bargnani.

      Kill me.

    127. ruruland

      Frank:
      Interesting article about Bargnani on PNRs by Sebastian Pruiti before he went to OKC:

      http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/22559/the-versatility-of-andrea-bargnani

      If we’re not going to get a PG that is good off the pullup jumper, the next (or equally) best thing is to get a real pick and pop threat — we don’t really have one on this team.

      I think ultimately the starting 5 will be Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, and Chandler– but that the 2nd unit will be anchored in the front court by Kmart and Bargnani.A Prigs, JR, Kmart, and Bargnani 2nd unit would not be bad at all.

      Thanks for posting.

    128. Juany8

      Guys, are we seriously still pretending Steve Novak was ever going to contribute in the playoffs? Guys like him get benched every year, look at Matt bonner on the Spurs. Sure you would hope bargs would be as accurate as Novak, but Novak is a liability against a good defense, they can leave him to help and then just sell out to stop the shot. Since he can’t pass, dribble, or really do anything one of his teammates with some actual talent has to come rescue him. That is a massive deal for a floor spacer. Since he can’t move the ball around the perimeter, it is always easy to rotate back to him in the playoffs. You need the extra passes, or players who can attack an unset defense, like prigs often does.

      Look I don’t know that bargs will contribute much as a knick, but I know Novak wasn’t going to contribute shit towards winning in the playoffs. This is all about those picks, bargs, and the cap space we freed up. If the Knicks get a good mid level player in 2016 because they suddenly have space, I’d much rather have that than a late pick.

    129. Igno-Bot 3000

      mokers:
      I wonder if this puts Dragic in play. Now that would have been a great use of Camby + Novak money.

      BUT 2015 CAP SPACE

    130. ruruland

      Igno-Bot 3000: BUT 2015 CAP SPACE

      Right, which is the next opportunity the Knicks have to actually spend. Not sure why you would dismiss that while putting the first pick on a pedestal.

      The Knicks weren’t getting Goran fucking Dragic for the Novak package.

    131. mokers

      Igno-Bot 3000: BUT 2015 CAP SPACE

      I was being tongue in cheek. Dragic is going to be a useful player to somebody. I don’t know if Phoenix is just going to hand the keys to Bledsoe right away. If they did want to trade Dragic to somebody who needs a PG, it makes the vet min and mMLE market a little better for the Knicks.

    132. Igno-Bot 3000

      If only there were other ways to acquire talent in the NBA than multi-year plans to acquire $45 mil of cap space

    133. DRed

      The Clippers just pulled off a heist. Should be a really fun team to watch next season.

    134. ruruland

      Igno-Bot 3000:
      If only there were other ways to acquire talent in the NBA than multi-year plans to acquire $45 mil of cap space

      Right, because that’s how the Knicks built their 54 win team last season.

    135. Loathing

      Igno-Bot 3000: BUT 2015 CAP SPACE

      Gotta feel bad for Grunwald…he’s trying to balance the short term WIN NOW mode the team is in with the long-term “lets not have a repeat of the Isiah years” situation. So far, I think he’s doing a fine job…he’s keeping the team competitive while keeping a big eye out on the big picture. Love it.

    136. Brian Cronin

      Nice move for the Suns too honestly. Dudley was wasted on that type of team and grabbing Bledsoe + an expiring for him is a nice use of that chip. The Bucks just come out looking dumb in my opinion. Not that grabbing a pick for Reddick is a bad thing, but man giving up Harris to rent him for a few months so you could lock down the right to get swept by Miami is ugly.

      Oh yeah, I do agree with that. The Suns did well by the trade. This also allows them to now explore trade opportunities for Dragic, who should be able to get them something nice for the future.

      And yes, the Bucks look foolish, especially since they didn’t seem to bother asking if their coach actually wanted Redick on the team. They did not seem fans of each other.

    137. Igno-Bot 3000

      ruruland: Right, because that’s how the Knicks built their 54 win team last season.

      We traded for Carmelo Anthony.

    138. ruruland

      Loathing: Gotta feel bad for Grunwald…he’s trying to balance the short term WIN NOW mode the team is in with the long-term “lets not have a repeat of the Isiah years” situation. So far, I think he’s doing a fine job…he’s keeping the team competitive while keeping a big eye out on the big picture. Love it.

      Right. The Knicks are positioned just fine. Few teams, I’m not sure how many, are as well positioned for 2015 as the Knicks.

      There is little reason to believe they can’t, at the very least, repeat last year the next two seasons.

      Right now, there are at least 4 players considering taking a paycut to play in NY.

      That’s why the Knicks can operate with a slightly different model. The talent pool is always growing and the Knicks have already demonstrated the ability to take advantage of market inefficiencies and international scouting.

      Finding good role players is almost always possible. Building the right core is what matters. The Knicks missed with Amar’e, but it’ll be hard to go wrong in ’15.

      Gasol/Hibbert, Love, Melo is definitely possible.

    139. thenamestsam

      Juany8:
      If the Knicks get a good mid level player in 2016 because they suddenly have space, I’d much rather have that than a late pick.

      My only counterpoint to this would be that Novak + that 1st rounder for an expiring or into cap space was a deal that seems like it would have been available in a number of guises. A first round pick is a very high price to pay to just clear a $5M annual salary. Even if they use the money well that wouldn’t fully justify the move in my eyes. Bargnani will have to give us something for this trade to have been a good one in my opinion.

    140. ruruland

      Igno-Bot 3000: We traded for Carmelo Anthony.

      Ok, exactly right, traded young players and picks for him — the assets this board is wailing for every day because they want to be like OKC– and built a team around him in a manner totally antithesis to the build through draft model.

    141. ruruland

      thenamestsam: My only counterpoint to this would be that Novak + that 1st rounder for an expiring or into cap space was a deal that seems like it would have been available in a number of guises. A first round pick is a very high price to pay to just clear a $5M annual salary. Even if they use the money well that wouldn’t fully justify the move in my eyes. Bargnani will have to give us something for this trade to have been a good one in my opinion.

      I agree. It’s not that they shouldn’t have traded away the 1st round pick because of who they’d be able to select with it, but because it could have been a piece added to a deal, say a S&T in 2015, that could have gotten the Knicks over the top in a trade for a much better player.

    142. dtrickey

      Wow the pesimists have been out in full force this week.

      I think a bit of perspective is needed here. Forget the stats and what not, this team managed 54 wins with a team that was missing key players at various points in the season (STAT and Shump not until January, Felton out for a month, Melo missing intermittent games, Chandler sick/back).

      Everyone is saying the East will be better next year, which is true. Bulls will be a bit better as will the Pacers and Nets for obvious reasons. However, there is no reason why this team isn’t a serious contender for a top 4 seed.

      Another thing I believe is also being overlooked is chemistry. For the first time in a number of years we are going to be going into summer camp with the basically the same roster with a few new additions rather than a completely different core, something D’Antoni would have killed for. To be honest, I think people get to enamoured with end of the bench guys on this blog. Not a bad thing, everyone likes an underdog, but was Novak or Camby really going to be the difference between us and a Championship?

      So all that being said, plus addressing the final few needs in free agaency, I really see this team around that same 54 win mark, which considering the last decade would be amazing to have consecutive 50+ win seasons.

      Then again, maybe I’m just an optimist.

    143. Igno-Bot 3000

      ruruland: Ok, exactly right, traded young players and picks for him — the assets this board is wailing for every day because they want to be like OKC– and built a team around him in a manner totally antithesis to the build through draft model.

      That’s my point exactly. We traded assets for him. We don’t have any assets now.

      What’s the free agent list for that year…Lebron, Rondo, Love…who else? We all know Lebron is not coming to the Knicks. Out of the other two, do you really think either will hit free agency? Or will they be traded to contending teams and then resign with those teams? We have to start treating the 2010 Heat like the anomaly that it is and realize that if you want a star or superstar, 90% of the time you either draft him or trade for him. The “let’s plan to save $50 million in cap space for year X” is going to guarantee that you overpay a past-their-prime player who is likely to be injury prone. At least one, and hopefully not two players like that.

      Look, I”m not generally against the idea of having cap space nor am I against the idea of sacrificing a draft pick to do so. I just think there was a lot of poor judgment executed in this deal, considering that we and other teams have cleared cap space for less (i.e. 2011 – Turiaf, $3 million and a 2014 second-rounder for Tyson) and that we and other teams have given up first-round picks for more.

      It just very frustrating that time and time again we rush into deals. Why couldn’t we wait a week or two or three to do this deal? See what else that pick could have fetched us? Or who else was available who could have helped us? When it comes to crunch time, we always show our hand too early, paying Amare as much and as early as we did, overpaying for Carmelo, and now overpaying for Andrea. It’s not that these are bad moves necessarily, they’re just not terribly…

    144. Juany8

      thenamestsam: My only counterpoint to this would be that Novak + that 1st rounder for an expiring or into cap space was a deal that seems like it would have been available in a number of guises. A first round pick is a very high price to pay to just clear a $5M annual salary. Even if they use the money well that wouldn’t fully justify the move in my eyes. Bargnani will have to give us something for this trade to have been a good one in my opinion.

      That’s very true, that move probably would have been available at less cost, although I still think the cap space is an asset that needs to be considered, I’d say it takes the sting off the late second round picks at the very least. Really comes down to how bargs does, he doesn’t need to be awesome but he needs to be a rotation player.

    145. Igno-Bot 3000

      * well thought out.

      And the most frustrating part is I like Grunwald! I think he’s great! I think he’s made lemonade out of lemons at every corner, from Lin to Novak to Felton to Shumpert to Copeland to Prigioni…he has made some very very sneaky moves that I have been absolutely impressed by. Which makes me think that a move like this is at the hand of ownership. It’s a little too easy to say that every good move is Grunwald’s fault and every bad move is Dolan’s fault, but the timing of the deal definitely reeks of the latter to me.

    146. thenamestsam

      dtrickey:

      Another thing I believe is also being overlooked is chemistry. For the first time in a number of years we are going to be going into summer camp with the basically the same roster with a few new additions rather than a completely different core, something D’Antoni would have killed for.

      A lot of people have been saying this but at least at the moment I’m not sure how true it is. More guys may end up coming back but we currently have 5 only guys on the team who were on the team last year and while those five were main guys they still played less than 45% of the teams total minutes last year. Depending on how things end up with Prigs, Cope, JR and Kenyon we might end up with a lot of continuity but I don’t think it’s exactly a foregone conclusion a this point.

    147. JK47

      If JR doesn’t come back I think this team is in a heap of trouble.

      We have Melo for scoring, and after that… There’s Amar’e, who the FO now says will play 20 minutes per game and not play back-to-backs. We have Shumpert, not exactly a proven volume scorer. We have Felton, who is incredibly inefficient. We have Tyson Chandler, who scores only on putbacks and dunks. We have Bargnani, also very inefficient. We have Tim Hardaway Jr., who was inefficient in college. And other than that we have whatever flotsam and jetsam we can acquire via the MLE and vet minimum contracts. Copeland is probably out the door, Novak is already gone… I’m trying to figure out where the scoring is going to come from and I have no answers. Without JR this certainly does not seem like a top 3 offense again. JR wasn’t a terribly efficient shooter but he did manage a lot of volume scoring with very few turnovers.

      And it’s not like the defense has gotten any better either.

    148. Loathing

      JK47:
      If JR doesn’t come back I think this team is in a heap of trouble.

      We have Melo for scoring, and after that… There’s Amar’e, who the FO now says will play 20 minutes per game and not play back-to-backs.We have Shumpert, not exactly a proven volume scorer.We have Felton, who is incredibly inefficient.We have Tyson Chandler, who scores only on putbacks and dunks.We have Bargnani, also very inefficient.We have Tim Hardaway Jr., who was inefficient in college.And other than that we have whatever flotsam and jetsam we can acquire via the MLE and vet minimum contracts.Copeland is probably out the door, Novak is already gone… I’m trying to figure out where the scoring is going to come from and I have no answers.Without JR this certainly does not seem like a top 3 offense again.JR wasn’t a terribly efficient shooter but he did manage a lot of volume scoring with very few turnovers.

      And it’s not like the defense has gotten any better either.

      To paraphrase Igno, Grunwald’s done an amazing job sifting through the “flotsam” on the FA pool. Let him do what he does best…let’s see what he pulls out of the wreckage.

    149. ruruland

      Igno-Bot 3000:

      Why couldn’t we wait a week or two or three to do this deal?See what else that pick could have fetched us?Or who else was available who could have helped us?When it comes to crunch time, we always show our hand too early, paying Amare as much and as early as we did, overpaying for Carmelo, and now overpaying for Andrea.It’s not that these are bad moves necessarily, they’re just not terribly…

      This is why I get so frustrated with this site. So many great posters and writers, but I have to post this again because you just weren’t reading the past threads at the right time.

      ’15 free agents: Rondo, Dragic, Thadeus Young, Love, Aldridge, Lopez, Gasol, Hibbert.

    150. Loathing

      Ack…ALDRIDGE…read that as ALDRITCH…and here I was thinking “What the hell is COLE ALDRITCH doing on this list?!”

    151. Igno-Bot 3000

      ruruland: This is why I get so frustrated with this site. So many great posters and writers, but I have to post this again because you just weren’t reading the past threads at the right time.

      ’15 free agents: Rondo, Dragic, Thadeus Young, Love, Aldridge, Lopez, Gasol, Hibbert.

      Mark my words, Rondo, Love and Aldridge will be traded to contenders. I am also not chomping at the bit to sign Hibbert nor Gasol to long-term contracts at that point. Lopez…maybe? But you are aware that not all of those players will actually be available then, right!?

    152. ruruland

      The Nets will have $46 million on the books in ’15 when Brook Lopez is a FA. The Knicks have a great chance of either poaching him. If not, Nets will essentially have Joe Johnson, Deron Williams, Lopez and pennies to spend on the roster of the roster.

      Love would be primary target obviously, but Gasol or Hibbert, Rondo are great either as fallback options or in combination.

    153. daJudge

      Non guaranteed structured settlements have little value. Most fans get pretty tired about looking at the future if the past is bleak. Love your comments Ruru, but IMO, some Gestalt would help. Know what I mean?

      ruruland: This is why I get so frustrated with this site. So many great posters and writers, but I have to post this again because you just weren’t reading the past threads at the right time.

      ’15 free agents: Rondo, Dragic, Thadeus Young, Love, Aldridge, Lopez, Gasol, Hibbert.

    154. ruruland

      Igno-Bot 3000: Mark my words, Rondo, Love and Aldridge will be traded to contenders.I am also not chomping at the bit to sign Hibbert nor Gasol to long-term contracts at that point.Lopez…maybe? But you are aware that not all of those players will actually be available then, right!?

      Sure, maybe they all get extended prior to reaching FA!!! WHOA…

      Those are just the possibilities now, more could open up before then if other guys get extended or take player options or teams pick up options.

      Check out the ’14 class: Irving, Rubio, Lillard, Klay Thompson, jimmy Butler, Kwahi Leonard, Vucevic, Kanter and Bosh all have team options in ’14 that should likely make them FA in ’15.

      You knew that, right?

    155. ruruland

      daJudge:
      Non guaranteed structured settlements have little value.Most fans get pretty tired about looking at the future if the past is bleak.Love your comments Ruru, but IMO, some Gestalt would help.Know what I mean?

      I would just like to remind everyone that the board was almost monolithically opposed to the Knicks off-season last year, from Kidd to Wallace, to Lin, Felton, Novak’s deal et al.

      The two moves that had support (influenced by the Berri crowd) were Camby and Brewer, clearly the worst acquisitions last year.

      Remember, too, that Brewer and Camby were the players the Berri crowd said would improve the Knicks most last year.

    156. danvt

      Igno-Bot 3000: It’s a little too easy to say that every good move is Grunwald’s fault and every bad move is Dolan’s fault, but the timing of the deal definitely reeks of the latter to me.

      I CAN’T see how this move is a reaction to the Net’s stealing the back pages. The Knicks are getting pilloried for this move. This move is the opposite. It’s a smart basketball move (yes I said it) with the opposite of effect on the fan base. Net fans are rightfully, FOR NOW, delirious over Pierce / Garnett. NYK fans are, RIGHT NOW, incredibly pissed. I don’t blame either fan base. Plus, times have changed. back when Steinbrenner made his moves people talked about them for weeks. With the news cycle how it is, these moves will lie dormant soon. Then we’ll play basketball and see who pulls a calf muscle.

      JK47: There’s Amar’e, who the FO now says will play 20 minutes per game and not play back-to-backs.

      This tidbit is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANDREA BARGNANI. Where did it come from?

      JK47: JR wasn’t a terribly efficient shooter but he did manage a lot of volume scoring with very few turnovers.

      So we value efficiency except in our 2nd most important player? Or do you realize that efficiency is a team effect and we just need good athletes?

      Igno-Bot 3000: When it comes to crunch time, we always show our hand too early, paying Amare as much and as early as we did, overpaying for Carmelo, and now overpaying for Andrea.

      Not everything fits this thesis. I think this latest trade…

    157. KnickfaninNJ

      I wasn’t thrilled about the trade initially, but didn’t hate it. But weirdly, the more I read all the negatives about Bargnani here and even the article about him in the times, the more optimistic I get about the trade. I mean people seem to hate the guy. I can understand Toronto fans hating him because he represented was a number one pick and fans want an all star out such a pick, which he wasn’t and isn’t. But he’s still a guy whom 5 or 6 Toronto coaches gave heavy minutes to as a starter whenever he was healthy. All that hate, and the fact he was injured last year has got to have made his trade value an all time low. Knick fans are mad because we gave away a first round pick. But I think that’s partially because it was almost our only pick left. But if we had all of our picks and just traded the one that Denver could swap with us, it would be ho hum to trade that one away. Novak’s a good story and I like the man, but he’s still a guy who sometimes makes it off the bench and sometimes doesn’t. Many Knick fans on this board were saying Copeland was better last year and with some justification. And Copeland was a free agent pickup. So we didn’t really lose a lot.

      To summarize, we definitely bought low. Maybe we get a key piece and maybe we get a useful bench player, but either way, I am happy with the trade.

    158. citizen

      ruruland: Sure, maybe they all get extended prior to reaching FA!!! WHOA…

      Those are just the possibilities now, more could open up before then if other guys get extended or take player options or teams pick up options.

      Check out the ’14 class: Irving, Rubio, Lillard, Klay Thompson, jimmy Butler, Kwahi Leonard, Vucevic, Kanter and Bosh all have team options in ’14 that should likely make them FA in ’15.

      You knew that, right?

      Wouldn’t everyone on that list be a restricted FA in 15, thus meaning that their current teams can match whatever offers the players get? Hard to imagine that any of those players would be let go for reasonable contracts

    159. citizen

      ruruland: Sure, maybe they all get extended prior to reaching FA!!! WHOA…

      Those are just the possibilities now, more could open up before then if other guys get extended or take player options or teams pick up options.

      Check out the ’14 class: Irving, Rubio, Lillard, Klay Thompson, jimmy Butler, Kwahi Leonard, Vucevic, Kanter and Bosh all have team options in ’14 that should likely make them FA in ’15.

      You knew that, right?

      Wouldn’t everyone on that list be a restricted FA in 15, thus meaning that their current teams can match whatever offers the players get? Hard to imagine that any of those players would be allowed to leave for reasonable contracts

    160. Caleb

      ruruland: I would just like to remind everyone that the board was almost monolithically opposed to the Knicks off-season last year, from Kidd to Wallace, to Lin, Felton, Novak’s deal et al.

      The two moves that had support (influenced by the Berri crowd) were Camby and Brewer, clearly the worst acquisitions last year.

      Remember, too, that Brewer and Camby were the players the Berri crowd said would improve the Knicks most last year.

      This is revisionist history… the bottom line complaint is that we’d given up all real fleixibility for a team that would max out in the 2nd round of the playoffs, which is exactly what happened.

      The single most reviled move was letting Lin walk… we spent Lin’s money on Camby and Kidd, who combined didn’t score a point in what, the last 8 weeks of the season?

      There’s a little room for improvement with Shumpert on board, and if Stoudemire, Chandler and Bargs all come back from injury… or THJ way outperforms expectations… etc. but the team overall is old and more likely to decline, than improve. Basically, we are in the same longshot position… 50 wins and the 2nd round.

      Best thing about the current CBA was shortening contracts, so we’re stuck for a year less. Of course we are guaranteed a repeat, maxing out Melo for his past-prime years, giving $50 million to Bargs and another $60 million to someone we hate.

      But I know the score.. I’ll root for Amare, and hope that Shump makes the half-court shot and becomes an actual star.

    161. massive

      So I’ve been spending the past 2 days watching as much Bargs film as I possibly could. After further review, I’m in support of this trade. I think it was both a good financial and basketball move. I could get into specifics, but I essentially think he’ll play the 3 on offense with Melo at the 4 and Chandler at the 5. I think his shooting efficiency will sky rocket and he will be able to effectively guard opposing team’s power forwards and centers.

      It’s actually ridiculous how talented Bargs is when you look at his putrid numbers. He makes some really great passes and is a good rebounder when he feels like it. I’ll give him a pass on his efficiency because of the demand for him to be a franchise guy which he clearly isn’t. I do think it’s possible for him to get his TS% above .55 with the pick and pop he should be running with Felton and the floor spacing he’ll be doing. He also has a devastating pump fake. The guy can definitely put it together in a Knicks jersey because he won’t be relied on as the #1 scorer or the last line of defense. Brook Lopez was a similarly bad player (and he’s still a bad rebounder), but he put it all together and now he’s one of the 5 or 6 best centers in the NBA.

    162. ruruland

      citizen: Wouldn’t everyone on that list be a restricted FA in 15, thus meaning that their current teams can match whatever offers the players get? Hard to imagine that any of those players would be allowed to leave for reasonable contracts

      I don;t thin so. Difference between qualifying offer and team option.

    163. KnickfaninNJ

      Caleb,

      It wasn’t last summer that people said we would mas out at 50 wins and just get to the second round of the playoffs, it was when we traded for Melo. I know I thought so at the time. I predicted we would be like Atlanta was then. The truth is, we are a little better than Atlanta was then. We were more competitive in our second round series last year than they usually were in theirs.

      I don’t know if we are going to make it through the second round next year, but we aren’t so old that we are definitely going to go downhill. Felton, Melo, Chandler, Bargnani, Shumpert, Copeland and Smith are all under thirty. The best thing about next year is that we won’t have a strike or constant roster turnover, so we probably will still have a coherent team, which means the Basketball will be better to watch. Honestly, I’d rather have two years in a row of fun to watch and making the playoffs, that what has happened for too many years in the past.

    164. ruruland

      Caleb:

      Best thing about the current CBA was shortening contracts, so we’re stuck for a year less.Of course we are guaranteed a repeat, maxing out Melo for his past-prime years, giving $50 million to Bargs and another $60 million to someone we hate.

      I’ll root for Amare, and hope that Shump makes the half-court shot and becomes an actual star.

      For the record, I was also for signing Lin.

      You are misrepresenting how most of the board felt about the team last off-season.

      Also, you want the Knicks to build through draft yet concede Shumpert if a half-court chance to develop into a star.

      Ok.

      And this:”Best thing about the current CBA was shortening contracts, so we’re stuck for a year less.Of course we are guaranteed a repeat, maxing out Melo for his past-prime years, giving $50 million to Bargs and another $60 million to someone we hate.”

      Yeah ok bye.

    165. Juany8

      massive:
      So I’ve been spending the past 2 days watching as much Bargs film as I possibly could. After further review, I’m in support of this trade. I think it was both a good financial and basketball move. I could get into specifics, but I essentially think he’ll play the 3 on offense with Melo at the 4 and Chandler at the 5. I think his shooting efficiency will sky rocket and he will be able to effectively guard opposing team’s power forwards and centers.

      It’s actually ridiculous how talented Bargs is when you look at his putrid numbers. He makes some really great passes and is a good rebounder when he feels like it. I’ll give him a pass on his efficiency because of the demand for him to be a franchise guy which he clearly isn’t. I do think it’s possible for him to get his TS% above .55 with the pick and pop he should be running with Felton and the floor spacing he’ll be doing. He also has a devastating pump fake. The guy can definitely put it together in a Knicks jersey because he won’t be relied on as the #1 scorer or the last line of defense. Brook Lopez was a similarly bad player (and he’s still a bad rebounder), but he
      put it all together and now he’s one of the 5 or 6 best centers in the NBA.

      This almost sounds sarcastic, but if not that’s literally the most positive review I’ve seen of Bargs. Hope it comes true, I do think he can be reasonably efficient and a good option off the bench. Hoping for more of course, wouldn’t be the first player to put it together when placed in a strong environment and being asked to handle less pressure

    166. KnickfaninNJ

      On another topic, has anyone noticed Toronto’s weird player acqusition strategy? They seem to be mostly going for players that are good at only one thing rather than players who are multiple threats. Think of Rudy Gay, Landry Fields and Steve Novak. And this is coming from a team that reportedly has installed the most sophisticated ball tracking and people tracking system available and wrote software to go with it. To me it seems like their only goal is to make the playoffs, not to do well in them. I don’t see how you can do well in the playoffs with one dimensional players.

    167. Juany8

      Damn looks like OKC is losing Kevin Martin for nothing. They just traded one of the 20 best players in the NBA before his prime for a couple of late lottery picks. Sam presti might get fired if he keeps this up lol, brooks has needed to go for a full year now and they have him an extension instead. Rose and Durant are getting screwed by management while Lebron has hall of famers taking huge discounts to play off the bench with him. Kind of an underrated factor in the Heat’s success lol, how do the past 2 finals look if battier goes to OKC or Allen goes back to Boston?

    168. massive

      Juany8: This almost sounds sarcastic, but if not that’s literally the most positive review I’ve seen of Bargs. Hope it comes true, I do think he can be reasonably efficient and a good option off the bench. Hoping for more of course, wouldn’t be the first player to put it together when placed in a strong environment and being asked to handle less pressure

      I’m serious. Chances are I’m just another homer, but I don’t have any reason to believe he will continue to be as atrocious as he was. Stats are the “what happened,” and they don’t measure the “why it happened” too often. Look at Kenyon Martin, for example. For the Clippers, his TS% was a .445 and his eFG% was .448. Stats would tell you there’s no reason to expect an efficiency increase. With the Knicks? A TS% of .583 and an eFG% of .602.

      I think he’ll get a lot of catch and shoot/finish opportunities here. Another aspect not talked about is he’s actually a defensive upgrade over Novak. Teams won’t maliciously target Bargs the way the did to Novak to go on 8-0 runs before Woody had to call a timeout. His problem has always been effort, which is why he sucks at rebounding and help defense. I think he’ll try harder here because he’ll be on a proven winner.

      I don’t expect him to become a good rebounder or a good defender, though. I only expect to see his scoring efficiency rise as a Knick.

    169. massive

      And when James Harden was traded to the Rockets, I told all of my friends that OKC will never win a championship. Not keeping Kevin Martin helps me out. If Dwight goes to Houston, both LAL and OKC fans should be mad at Sam Presti/OKC ownership for not cutting Perkins and keeping Harden. The Clippers and Rockets could very well be the best teams out West next year.

    170. ruruland

      massive:
      It’s actually ridiculous how talented Bargs is when you look at his putrid numbers. He makes some really great passes and is a good rebounder when he feels like it. I’ll give him a pass on his efficiency because of the demand for him to be a franchise guy which he clearly isn’t. I do think it’s possible for him to get his TS% above .55 with the pick and pop he should be running with Felton and the floor spacing he’ll be doing. He also has a devastating pump fake. The guy can definitely put it together in a Knicks jersey because he won’t be relied on as the #1 scorer or the last line of defense. Brook Lopez was a similarly bad player (and he’s still a bad rebounder), but he put it all together and now he’s one of the 5 or 6 best centers in the NBA.

      Take a wild guess here.

      Player A 2010 (rank): Isolation 145th, post-up 56th, roll man 64th, spot up 59th, off-screen 58th, cut 58th, o-rebound 25th

      Player B 2010 (rank): Isolation 138th, post-up 18th, roll man 35th, spot-up 286th, cut 61st, o-rebound 111th.

      Player A 2011 (rank): Isolation 102nd, post-up 14th, roll man 31st, spot-up 180, off-screen 35th, cut 150, o-rebound 91st.

      Player B 2011 (rank): Isolation 45th, post-up 48th, roll-man 38th, spot-up 206, off-screen 46th, cut 91st.

      Player A 2012 (rank); Isolation 18th, post-up 34th, roll-man 65th, spot-up 82nd, off-screen 81st, cut 44th.

      Player B 2012 (rank): Isolation 13th, post-up 34th, roll man 84th, spot-up 110, off-screen 7, cut 86th.

    171. ruruland

      Juany8: This almost sounds sarcastic, but if not that’s literally the most positive review I’ve seen of Bargs. Hope it comes true, I do think he can be reasonably efficient and a good option off the bench. Hoping for more of course, wouldn’t be the first player to put it together when placed in a strong environment and being asked to handle less pressure

      massive is right.

      Bargs Synergy profile prior to last year is excellent. He’s very skilled. He was overly used to self-create in Toronto. He is a swiss army knife scorer for a big man.

      He’ll almost always have a mismatch if not facing off against oppos. better defenders.

    172. ruruland

      KnickfaninNJ:
      Wild guess, one is Bargs and one is Gallinari?

      In 2010, Player A is Bargnani, Player B is Tim Duncan.

      In 2011, Player A is Amar’e Stoudemire (his great first year in NY), Player B is Andre Bargnani.

      In 2012, Player A is Bargnani, Player B is Dirk Nowtizki

    173. JK47

      If this board isn’t cursing Andrea Bargnani’s name come mid-December I’ll be amazed.

    174. ruruland

      To review:

      Andrea Bargnani (2010 rank): Isolation 145th, post-up 56th, roll man 64th, spot up 59th, off-screen 58th, cut 58th, o-rebound 25th

      Tim Duncan (2010 rank): Isolation 138th, post-up 18th, roll man 35th, spot-up 286th, cut 61st, o-rebound 111th.
      —————————————————————–
      Amar’e Stoudemire (2011 rank): Isolation 102nd, post-up 14th, roll man 31st, spot-up 180, off-screen 35th, cut 150, o-rebound 91st.

      Andre Bargnani ( 2011 rank): Isolation 45th, post-up 48th, roll-man 38th, spot-up 206, off-screen 46th, cut 91st.
      —————————————————————
      Andrea Bargnani (2012 rank); Isolation 18th, post-up 34th, roll-man 65th, spot-up 82nd, off-screen 81st, cut 44th.

      Dirk Nowitzki (2012 rank): Isolation 13th, post-up 34th, roll man 84th, spot-up 110, off-screen 7, cut 86th.

    175. Frank

      According to Twitter (some Spanish account called @pickandrollweb that was 5K followers)- Knicks have offered Prigioni a 2 year deal. Not sure what the numbers are.

    176. massive

      ruruland: massive is right.

      Bargs Synergy profile prior to last year is excellent. He’s very skilled. He was overly used to self-create in Toronto. He is a swiss army knife scorer for a big man.

      He’ll almost always have a mismatch if not facing off against oppos. better defenders.

      I have high hopes for him. From what I understand, his injuries were all due to his coming back too soon because the team was losing. I can see that coming from a player who was looked at as a franchise guy on a team that thought they could compete for a lower playoff seed. The Toronto situation was a bad one for him. I assume the New York one will be a lot better because he’ll be doing a lot less creating and more finishing. I think he’ll be fine.

    177. danvt

      So, SAS has given Tiago Splitter 9 million a year for four years.

      That seems batshit crazy to me but, hey, it’s the Spurs so it must be brilliant, right?

    178. johnno

      I haven’t read all of the posts above, so I don’t know whether anyone else has mentioned this but, if the Knicks were to sign K-Mart and Brand, they would have three former #1 overall picks on their roster. Has that ever happened before?

    179. massive

      The Prigioni news is both good and makes sense. Two years to stay (at the QO I hope) and then we reset and he retires. Makes sense for both parties IMO.

    180. hoolahoop

      ruruland: The Knicks are positioned just fine. Few teams, I’m not sure how many, are as well positioned for 2015 as the Knicks.

      That has to be one of the most sickening things I’ve read in this forum – ever. I guess it’s easy for you to say, showing up when Melo got here, and probably leaving with him.

      Do you understand we’ve been hearing that line of thinking for FORTY YEARS????!!!!!!!!

      That’s why the knicks suck. Because fans like let them get away with BS’ing them over and over and over and over again.

      The knicks have been in this league since 1946 when there were only eight teams and have won only two championships. It’s so pitiful it’s actually funny. The mecca of basketball.

    181. johnno

      danvt: So, SAS has given Tiago Splitter 9 million a year for four years.

      I hardly ever see the Spurs play, but I watched most of the finals. I don’t know how he usually plays, but the guy who I saw in the finals is a MLE guy at best, and probably a mini-MLE guy.

    182. Juany8

      johnno: I hardly ever see the Spurs play, but I watched most of the finals.I don’t know how he usually plays, but the guy who I saw in the finals is a MLE guy at best, and probably a mini-MLE guy.

      He’s a big so I’d pay $5-7 million for him, but 9 million is way too much

    183. danvt

      hoolahoop: That’s why the knicks suck. Because fans like let them get away with BS’ing them over and over and over and over again.

      True they haven’t won a championship since 1973 but they haven’t sucked the whole time. Right now is, also, one of the times they don’t suck. Unless you consider 54 wins and a top 8 finish sucking, which I don’t. Also, the top 8 could have easily been a top 4 because they were in no way inferior to IND. The story of NYK is not that different than most franchises. Unfortunately the best of the best has been somewhere else for forty years, but the Knicks have had some good teams over the years and have been poor for stretches just like most teams.

      I want to win a championship too and, yes, after a while second best isn’t enough but I’m just tired of the narrative from the last thread. Walsh and now Grunwald have done a pretty good job making us competitive. This isn’t the 2008 tear down right now. This is a competitive team for a couple of years in a league with MIA as the clear front runner. Yeah, the balance of power doesn’t have a chance to break radically in our favor for two years but we’ll have a punchers chance until then.

      It certainly isn’t the regime of he that shan’t be named. Bargnani is a role player not a foundational one.

      If you really think it’s chip or suck then ok we suck along with 29 other teams.

    184. bobneptune

      ruruland: Right. The Knicks are positioned just fine. Few teams, I’m not sure how many, are as well positioned for 2015 as the Knicks.

      Yeah, they are really well positioned. They have ray felton who will 100% exercise his player option @ 4.5 million and have shump under control for the 15-16 season. Hardaway also if he proves to be an nba player

      That’s it! no draft choice in 2016 (or 2014 for that matter to acquire young talent).

      And if their “star” player decides not to jump ship we’ll see what type of top players want to play with a chucker entering his 12th season who bristled the last time another knick player had the temerety to infringe on his spotlite and he intentionally sabotaged the offense.

    185. Hubert

      Ruru I’m on your side here. I’m just warning you not to put too much emphasis on the 2015 free agency thing. If you’ve been around here long enough, you know that it’s more likely we trade AB or Amare’s expiring contracts next year for mediocre players on longer deals. It’s kinda how we do things.

    186. Hubert

      This 20 minutes for Amar’e thing is coming from Marc Berman, who said “a source” told him the Knicks “may be considering it.”

    187. jon abbey

      Hubert:
      This 20 minutes for Amar’e thing is coming from Marc Berman, who said “a source” told him the Knicks “may be considering it.”

      he has good sources these days, he talked about Elton Brand as a NY target days before anyone else was.

      and I agree that the 2015 stuff is sickening. it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, it’s sickening.

    188. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      JK47:
      If this board isn’t cursing Andrea Bargnani’s name come mid-December I’ll be amazed.

      ruruland is going to explain, via 5,000 word posts, how he’s being under-utilized.

      That will be the low point of the post-Isiah era.

    189. Z

      danvt: Right now is, also, one of the times they don’t suck.Unless you consider 54 wins and a top 8 finish sucking, which I don’t.

      I’m not going to say the Knicks suck right now (I haven’t watched them play in over a year), but I am going to say that in my lifetime there have been 50+ win teams that have most definitely sucked.

      The 1994 Atlanta Hawks: 57-25; 1st in EC; lost in the 2nd round in 6 games to the 47-win Indiana Pacers; (Hmmm…); The Hawks had won 43 games in 1993 and they went on to win 42 games in 1995.

      That Hawks team had Mookie Blaylock, Stacey Augmon, Kevin Willis, Craig Ehlo, and John Koncak as their 5 top minutes leaders.

      That team played in a weak, talent depleted conference.

      That team won 57 games.

      That team sucked.

    190. fry

      I honestly think Bargs will be a third string benchman, which isn’t such a bad thing. We lost literally nothing in the near future to sign this dude other than some picks. What’s the point of being negative before anything even happens? I doubt anyone is through-the-roof thrilled, but what’s the real loss? I loved Novak, but what has he offered lately? Camby? He was really good a while ago. Who cares that he’s gone now? We gave up some picks in the future. Yes, some of them may turn out well, but what are the odds that that these late picks actually would? How often does it actually pan out? Yes Ginobli and Parker, D. Green and others were super impressive recently. But that’s such a rare occurrence. You have to take the odds in these situations.

      Let’s all just at least try to be slightly positive. I know it’s difficult given what we’ve all been through, but let’s just give it a shot.

      On another note, I know that I never post, but I have to speak up about the useless posts. There are some people who literally seem to show up only when they’re pissed off. An understandable feeling around here. However, why don’t you show up when you’re happy about something? I understand being frustrated, but you’re such a drag when all you do is complain…

      I don’t know. I’m slightly inebriated, but I’m slightly, subtly excited about the year. We have been subject to so much worse. I’m fully on board with a team that can at least compete. Sue me sue me. LEGGO, KNICKS.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: ruruland is going to explain, via 5,000 word posts, how he’s being under-utilized.

      That will be the low point of the post-Isiah era.

    191. kaine

      be faitfhful. Woodson system is perfect for him. the guy can contribute and can score. I follow him since the start, it’s not a gritty player you are going to love basing the feelings on the supposed “effort”…but he can contribute a lot, and if he is healthy, he can put us over the hill

    192. Brian Cronin

      Are sign and trades possible under the new CBA?

      Yes. The Knicks literally just did a sign and trade as part of the Bargnani trade (they had to sign and trade Quentin Richardson for the salaries to match in the deal). The restriction is that teams cannot do sign and trades if the team getting the player is over the luxury tax apron of roughly $74 million. So teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Heat cannot be on the receiving end of sign and trade deals. They can be the team sending the player out to teams that are under the tax apron, but they can’t be the one getting the signed and traded player.

    193. yellowboy90

      Brian Cronin: Yes. The Knicks literally just did a sign and trade as part of the Bargnani trade (they had to sign and trade Quentin Richardson for the salaries to match in the deal). The restriction is that teams cannot do sign and trades if the team getting the player is over the luxury tax apron of roughly $74 million. So teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Heat cannot be on the receiving end of sign and trade deals. They can be the team sending the player out to teams that are under the tax apron, but they can’t be getting the signed and traded player.

      How does that work when you are slightly under. Does the vet mins and early bird rights count?

      Also, what was the benefit of the clippers doing a S&T with Milwaukee. I guess the difference with the knicks being able to do a S&T with Cope or JR would be that they really want them back and would be outbid by teams so their is no reason why those players to accept a trade for the money Ny can give them.

      I guess the exception would be Cope if they do not want to give him the full mmle because they want to split it then they could work out a S&T, right?

    194. Brian Cronin

      How does that work when you are slightly under. Does the vet mins and early bird rights count?

      Yeah, they apply all of those contracts to the determination.

      Also, what was the benefit of the clippers doing a S&T with Milwaukee. I guess the difference with the knicks being able to do a S&T with Cope or JR would be that they really want them back and would be outbid by teams so their is no reason why those players to accept a trade for the money Ny can give them.

      I guess the exception would be Cope if they do not want to give him the full mmle because they want to split it then they could work out a S&T, right?

      Yeah, exactly. Milwaukee wasn’t going to bring Redick back and the Clippers didn’t have enough cap room to sign him themselves. So Milwaukee got two picks for a player they weren’t going to bring back no matter what. Of course, they also gave up Tobias Harris, but, well, we’ve covered why that was a dumb move already.

      As for Cope and signing and trading him, here’s where it is a bit tricky. If the Knicks were to sign and trade Cope, I am pretty sure that would blow their mini-MLE money (as they would need it to sign Cope to trade him). In that scenario, it really wouldn’t make sense to trade Cope, unless they were getting someone back better than Cope, which seems unlikely. JR is different. If the Knicks were to sign and trade him, that wouldn’t affect their ability to go out and get another guy with the mini-MLE. Of course, the problem would still be why would they sign JR and trade him? If he was willing to take the money the Knicks could give him, they’d just keep him.

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