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Thursday, August 28, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Feb 26 2013)

  • [New York Times] U.S. Ex-Basketball Player Rodman Bound for North Korea: AP (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:48:39 GMT)
    Retired U.S. basketball player Dennis Rodman is to visit North Korea to film a television documentary and will arrive in the capital Pyongyang on Tuesday, the Associated Press reported.

  • [New York Times] Pierce Lifts Road-Weary Celtics Over Jazz in OT (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:24:54 GMT)
    The Boston Celtics weren’t too tired after playing five games in seven days back and forth across time zones.

  • [New York Times] Chandler Leads Nuggets Past Lakers, 119-108 (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:09:46 GMT)
    It’s a good thing Danilo Gallinari was a late scratch for the Denver Nuggets. With a bruised left thigh, he couldn’t have kept up with his hustling teammates as they sped past the aged and aching Los Angeles Lakers.

  • [New York Times] Pierce Lifts Road-Weary Celtics Over Jazz in OT (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 05:36:54 GMT)
    Paul Pierce scored 26 points, including seven straight in overtime, and the Boston Celtics beat the Utah Jazz 110-107 on Monday night to close out a five-game road trip.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: The Baffling Benching of Lopez (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 04:28:13 GMT)
    Center Brook Lopez, the Nets’ leading scorer, has sat out the fourth quarter in three of four games since his first All-Star appearance.

  • [New York Times] Wizards Discover Some Second Half Magic as Surge Continues (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 04:24:40 GMT)
    With just five wins from their first 33 games there was certainly nothing magical about the Washington Wizards’ start to the National Basketball Association (NBA)season.

  • [New York Times] Woodson Sees Free Throws as a Key to Knicks’ Victory (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 03:39:16 GMT)
    The Knicks, known for their 3-pointers, made 27 of 35 free throw attempts in their victory over the 76ers on Sunday. Carmelo Anthony was 16 of 18 in free throws.

  • [New York Times] Horford’s Big Game Leads Hawks Over Pistons (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 03:09:56 GMT)
    Al Horford had 23 points and 22 rebounds, and the Atlanta Hawks beat the Detroit Pistons 114-103 on Monday night for their fifth win in six games.

  • [New York Times] Wizards Beat Raptors 90-84 for 3rd Straight Win (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 02:55:16 GMT)
    Bradley Beal scored 20 points, Nene had 11 points and nine rebounds, and the Washington Wizards beat the Toronto Raptors 90-84 on Monday night for their third straight victory.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Best N.B.A. Games of the Week (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 01:38:09 GMT)
    The week’s best N.B.A. games feature the Lakers at the Nuggets, the Clippers at the Pacers and the Heat at the Knicks.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Video: Knicks update (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 00:58:50 EDT)
  • [New York Daily News] Melo out! Anthony, Knicks need to chill (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 03:38:26 GMT)
    By NBA standards, Carmelo Anthony gave Sixers’ center Spencer Hawes a love tap as the two fought for position under the basket during the third quarter of the Knicks’ victory on Sunday.

  • [New York Post] Resurgent sixth man Smith working on jump shot (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 03:51:32 -0500)
    J.R. Smith was having fun at the end of Knicks practice yesterday, rifling the ball right-handed from three-quarter court, quarterback-style. He fell short on three attempts but not by much.
    “I was a little short but still better than [Tim] Tebow,” Smith said jokingly about the Jets quarterback.
    Smith…

  • [New York Post] Anthony must learn to keep cool (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 03:35:53 -0500)
    The most significant chapter in the book on Carmelo Anthony, certain to be read verbatim by opponents from Miami to Brooklyn to Boston and all points west, is the one that describes the tactics and methods advised to psychologically impair him and thereby destroy the Knicks.
    Kevin Garnett has already…

  • [New York Post] Woodson, Knicks to keep cap on Amar’e court time (Tue, 26 Feb 2013 01:44:49 -0500)
    The $100 million man will be the 30-minute man the rest of the season.
    Amar’e Stoudemire has truly joined the 30-30 club. He turned 30 in November, and coach Mike Woodson said yesterday he won’t be permitted to play him more than 30 minutes the rest of the…

  • 96 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Feb 26 2013)

    1. Thomas B.

      Frank,

      I was just coming by to share that. He makes a really good point. Is this a case of subtraction by addition? Shump basically took the role Ronnie Brewer had in the first 10 games or so. But when you swap Shump for Brewer in the Anthony/Chandler/Felton/Kidd a bad lineup got much worse.

      I would have liked to see if Shumpert was part of any 5-man rotation that is out scoring the opposition without regard to minutes. I also read that the defense is better when he is on the floor. I wonder if the problem is that Kidd’s shooting has cooled. You could probably get by with Shumpert’s limited offense, but when you combine that with Kidd’s recent struggles, you have very little to keep the defense from focusing on Anthony.

      I wonder what would happen if if Shumpert and Smith got more floor time with Anthony/Felton/Chandler.

    2. Zanzibar

      I would be very interested in the shooting improvement statistics (after ACL) broken down by position. I can understand how there could be a reasonable improvement by PFs and centers since they probably have not focused so much on their outside shooting. I’m less convinced when we’re talking SGs since they’ve always been focused on their outside shooting. Somewhat related, I think 3 pt shooting is more susceptible to improvement because of the difference in distance between high school/college and NBA. One analysis for SGs which might be useful would be a statistical comparison of FT% to midrange shooting%; if they tend to move together in a predicable way, we then might be able to able to determine Iman’s target. I think Shump in the past may have been too amped up which could have affected his shot. Maybe he needs to learn how to just relax more on his shot.

    3. Brian Cronin

      I think we all obviously believed in the general idea that “Yes, if all you can do is shoot, you should hopefully become a better shooter.” However, shouldn’t we be seeing some evidence of that from Shump by now? His three-point percentage is still more than respectable, but it sure seems like a sample size issue (36 total attempts, with his percentage dropping every game he’s played since it hit 40% – except his 1 for 2 against Philly). And other than that, his overall shooting is worse than it was last year, when it was really bad.

      It is clearly quite early, but couldn’t it be that ACL injury or no ACL injury, he just isn’t a very good shooter? He’s such a good defender that he still is a valuable piece even with that was the case, of course.

    4. flossy

      I think it’s become obvious to everyone (except Woodson?) that Shumpert and Kidd need to be separated. Having zero shooting on the wing to start the game is making the high pick and roll impossible to run and is allowing teams to double Melo with impunity. Even if those two were killing it on defense, it would be a problem, but they’re not, so it’s basically a dealbreaker.

      I’ve said it before, but I’d like to see them both benched and just start the game with Felton, JR, Melo, Amar’e, and Chandler. But even if Woodson is adamant about keeping STAT on the bench and Melo at the 4, you could still start JR or even Novak at the 3 and move Kidd or Shumpert (probably Kidd) to the bench.

      Asking Melo to create all the offense to start the game when one of his teammates can’t create his own shot, two other players don’t need to be guarded at all, and the other one is Raymond Felton… well, that’s just not fair.

    5. Owen

      “Owen, if you were GM 2 years ago, what moves would you have made? You obviously can’t stand Amare or Melo, so I’m just curious what you would have done, given that LeBron was not coming here. And how would the Knicks be in a much better position today if you had passed on Amare and Melo? Just wondering.”

      Look, as a fan, I want to win a championship. I don’t think you can win a championship with Amare as a max contract piece. I don’t think you can win a championship with Melo as a max contract piece. The two them together aren’t a championship core either. Not then. Not now. Not ever.

      If I were the owner and my money was on the line, I might think differently. The building is full and we are an above 500% team. Which keeps the fisc healthy. Frankly, a lot of teams choose to bottom out and end up staying in the cellar for years if not decades. It can be a downward death spiral like in Sacramanto.

      But by and large, I think if you just focus on process and making good decisions over time, things will get better. I think the Denver and Houston models are far far preferable. They are much younger, more flexible, and still more talented than we are as a result of a track record of smart personnel decisions. I would say if I had been running the team we would have a core of Lawson, Gallo, Lee, Chandler, Faried. Maybe we would have Kawhi Leonard who rated out as the fourth best player in his draft class but fell out of the top ten. Maybe we have Asik instead of Chandler.

      It’s hard to say what I would have done differently. But it’s clear to me that signing a max contract player who doesn’t provide a big surplus is rarely a good idea, especially when you are buying their decline phase.

      And yeah, I know it’s hard to get a LBJ or Durant. And it is possible to win like the Mavs did, with an aging superstar and old vets. But by and large I would be much happier if we weren’t the oldest team in the league and hopelessly capped out.

    6. jon abbey

      people really should be more patient with Shumpie, if anything I think he should be playing more minutes to try to get into a flow:

      Jonah Ballow ?@jonahballow

      .@I_Am_Iman working on his jumper right now — just hit 17 straight 3s from the left center spot on the arc #Knicks

    7. flossy

      In game shooting =/= practice shooting. His jump shot looks like garbage in actual game play and that’s what matters.

    8. Thomas B.

      jon abbey:
      P>.@I_Am_Iman working on his jumper right now — just hit 17 straight 3s from the left center spot on the arc #Knicks

      Great Shumpie. Now if you can just do that in a game. Also, could you work on you mid range jumper too, and your floaters, and your drives, and layups?

    9. Thomas B.

      I agree with flossy. Dump Kidd. Put Smith at the starting two. Stat does well with Kidd let them run the second unit. Copeland can provide some bench scoring too. Of course that presents an awful defensive group…oh well.

    10. Brian Cronin

      I’m all for playing Shump more minutes. I just don’t know if he’ll ever become a good jump shooter.

      By the way, looking at the schedule, it is awesome that Golden State plays in Indiana tonight. Hopefully they bust their asses and beat Indy tonight and then come to New York too tired to do much tomorrow night!

    11. d-mar

      @6 Agree, having 3 starters who can’t shoot is a recipe for failure (and it’s 4 if you consider Felton’s inconsistency)

      Also, I have to say that Lupica and Kay on ESPN radio are the kings of douchebaggery. Being in the car a lot, I get to hear these guys every day (I know, change the channel) and they are truly the worst, esp. when it comes to the Knicks. Kay, for instance, will have one overenthusiastic fan call in and say the Knicks can beat the Heat in the playoffs, and then spend the next hour ranting and raving and screaming about the Heat’s superiority, as if he’s educating all of us dumb listeners.

      Just a complete windbag.

    12. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, those two are both pretty insufferable. I’d honestly rather listen to Stephen A. Smith. Smith, at least, has legit CAA connections, so when he is saying stupid things you can at least try to figure whether what he is saying is serving an agenda. That’s sort of fun. Lupica and Kay only serve their own dumb agendas.

    13. Nick C.

      d-mar:
      @6 Agree, having 3 starters who can’t shoot is a recipe for failure (and it’s 4 if you consider Felton’s inconsistency)

      Also, I have to say that Lupica and Kay on ESPN radio are the kings of douchebaggery. Being in the car a lot, I get to hear these guys every day (I know, change the channel) and they are truly the worst, esp. when it comes to the Knicks. Kay, for instance, will have one overenthusiastic fan call in and say the Knicks can beat the Heat in the playoffs, and then spend the next hour ranting and raving and screaming about the Heat’s superiority, as if he’s educating all of us dumb listeners.

      Just a complete windbag.

      You must be referring to yesterday. I heard that too. I was tempted to call just to say because the Knicks beat them both times they played them by @ 20 points that’s why they can win. (not that I think they will but it is at least a point in their favor)

    14. Frank

      I think Shump needs to drive the ball more – like he did the other night, he drove, put up a good shot from about 5-6 feet — even though it didn’t go in, the attention he drew from the interior defenders opened up Tyson for the Oreb putback. Then maybe he’ll get into the flow a little bit. He just looks SO tentative on that end. Should I pass? Should I dribble? Should I shoot? Every move has hesitation. Maybe if he concentrates on being aggressive, his offensive game will come together a little.

    15. ruruland

      Owen:
      LMAO @ Owen once again.

      David Lee makes $14 million (goes up to $15 the next two years), Gallo a little more than $10 million, Chandler $14 (goes up to $15), Lawson $10 million (turns into $13 by 2016).

      That means with Faried, you have four frontcourt players, and less than $10 million left to fill out the last seven players on the roster, including a starting shooting guard, and a bench.

      Do you believe that a Lee/Chandler/Gallo/Lawson/Faried core is going to allow you to compete with Miami, OKC and San Antonio?

      That’s the only question that matters.

      Ok, if not, the increased burden to create shots on guys like Lawson, Gallo and Chandler all of a sudden mean they become less valuable (that or you expect the needed usage to come from the less than $10 million on the bench, all of which would need to be at least 20 usage players given the construction of your core)

      Then how do you improve the roster by trading any of those players?

      What player can you package any of the guys you mentioned to get a James Harden kind of player, a max player?

      Test:
      How many teams in the last 30 years can you find that made a deep playoff run without a player with a usage of 25 or higher?

    16. Brian Cronin

      I think Shump needs to drive the ball more – like he did the other night, he drove, put up a good shot from about 5-6 feet — even though it didn’t go in, the attention he drew from the interior defenders opened up Tyson for the Oreb putback. Then maybe he’ll get into the flow a little bit. He just looks SO tentative on that end. Should I pass? Should I dribble? Should I shoot? Every move has hesitation. Maybe if he concentrates on being aggressive, his offensive game will come together a little.

      Totally agreed that he should drive more.

    17. nicos

      Frank:
      I think Shump needs to drive the ball more – like he did the other night, he drove, put up a good shot from about 5-6 feet — even though it didn’t go in, the attention he drew from the interior defenders opened up Tyson for the Oreb putback.Then maybe he’ll get into the flow a little bit. He just looks SO tentative on that end. Should I pass? Should I dribble? Should I shoot? Every move has hesitation. Maybe if he concentrates on being aggressive, his offensive game will come together a little.

      He’s hit Chandler with several good passes while driving that Chandler hasn’t expected and fumbled away. Maybe having Shump play a little more with Amar’e might help as for better or worse when a guard penetrates he immediate looks for space to receive a pass rather than looking to crash the glass as Chandler generally does unless he’s directly involved in a pnr. Having a guard who both drives with his head up and can get penetration without a screen should be really valuable- unfortunately, as Frank points out, he’s been so tentative that none of the other Knicks seem to know what he’s going to do and so everybody kind of freezes up. Playing with Amar’e (who’ll never stop looking for opportunities to receive the ball) could be a bit of a security blanket for Shump as it’ll give him a built-in first option when he puts the ball on the floor.

    18. Owen

      “LMAO @ Owen once again.

      David Lee makes $14 million (goes up to $15 the next two years), Gallo a little more than $10 million, Chandler $14 (goes up to $15), Lawson $10 million (turns into $13 by 2016).”

      In my alternate reality we would have locked Lee up to a team friendly deal after his third year. I definitely am on the record on that point. He would pair nicely with Chandler, which was the plan in GS and I think a good one, given their relative skill sets. But the actual personnel doesn’t really matter anyway. And it’s pointless to debate the actual pieces rather than the key principle, which is that you don’t pay guys like superstars if they aren’t. Stat wasn’t a superstar when he arrived and it’s gotten much worse.

      Melo, you can argue, but anyone else I think would agree he falls significantly short of true superstar status. Fringe second tier, solidly third tier material. His rebound rate is below 10%. His assist rate is at an all time low. His TS% is heading like an arrow back to his career average. And his defensive impact is what you would expect from a guy playing power forward who is a half inch shorter than Joe Johnson. All you have to hang a hat on is his usage rate.

      Giving Melo a max contract to be your second best player just doesn’t make sense if winning a championship is your goal. And that goes triple for paying Stat the max to be your bench sparkplug.

      I think honestly, the most plausible hypothetical scenario probably would involve Paul and Chandler in New York with a bunch of young pieces. At the time Paul seemed to be the guy we should be angling to get. As it unfolded, it’s hard to see how we wouldn’t have been the most attractive destination with tons of cap space and a bunch of productive young assets.

      Who do you think wins a playoff series Ruru. The Knicks or the Nuggets? I know what SRS says. And I can’t really disagree.

    19. Owen

      “I think honestly, the most plausible hypothetical scenario probably would involve Paul and Chandler in New York with a bunch of young pieces. At the time Paul seemed to be the guy we should be angling to get. As it unfolded, it’s hard to see how we wouldn’t have been the most attractive destination with tons of cap space and a bunch of productive young assets.”

      And yeah, I actually don’t know what would have happened. But I have always thought we should target Paul. He is an injury risk. But getting him was our best option.

    20. nicos

      It’d be a tough series but I think a healthy Knicks team beats the Nuggets- the Knicks don’t turn the ball over and are an excellent defensive rebounding team and if you can limit their fast breaks and second chance points Denver is very beatable. I think Amar’e would pose huge problems for Denver in half court sets- they really have no one at all to match up on him. I do think Denver would give the Knicks some real headaches pushing even after made baskets but playoff basketball being what it is I think the pace would slow enough that the Knicks would have the advantage.

    21. Owen

      They have Koufos, Faried, and Mcgee.

      I don’t see how we limit their fast break chances. Not many teams have had much success at it.

      And I don’t think there is really much evidence that fast break basketball works less well in the playoffs. Certainly, Miami and OKC seemed pretty effective on the break last year.

      Bottom line to this discussion for me is more Houston than Denver. Houston has one player over 26 in their rotation (delfino), 20 million in cap space opening up, a true young superstar, and a better team than we do by SRS.

      That’s the model we should have been following.

    22. jon abbey

      it wasn’t clear that Chandler would hit free agency again until he actually did, I think most people would have expected Dallas to keep him.

      also, I can’t help but note that even your fantasy dream pairing only managed one playoff series win in three years together in New Orleans.

      the bottom line is we can talk all we want, but LeBron choosing NY was the only chance for a title for NY in this era. everything else is just choosing a different road to being an also-ran.

    23. ruruland

      nicos:
      It’d be a tough series but I think a healthy Knicks team beats the Nuggets- the Knicks don’t turn the ball over and are an excellent defensive rebounding team and if you can limit their fast breaks and second chance points Denver is very beatable.I think Amar’e would pose huge problems for Denver in half court sets- they really have no one at all to match up on him.I do think Denver would give the Knicks some real headaches pushing even after made baskets but playoff basketball being what it is I think the pace would slow enough that the Knicks would have the advantage.

      It would be interesting if they matched up in the regular season…

      Owen, I’ll get to your posts when i have a chance tonight.

    24. thenamestsam

      Trying to play the “Well, what moves would you have made?!?!?” game is always incredibly dumb because the reality is that we don’t know what moves are out there and trying to fully envision another scenario in full is 100% impossible.

      There were two basic options at the time of the Stat signing. Option 1 was to sign Stat knowing full well that he wasn’t ever going to be the true centerpiece of a championship team (even in basically the perfect system with the perfect PG they never quite made it, and Stat was better then) in the hopes that he could attract that centerpiece. Option 2 was to be patient, use cap space sparingly and on tradeable asserts, and keep options open.

      The Melo choice was a similar one in the sense that it was a decision between a move with obvious near term benefits and a non-move that would have left a lot more questions than answers but that had the potential (in my opinion) for even higher benefits down the road. I understand why they chose the road they did, and honestly it has worked better than I expected for the most part. It’s the best Knicks team in a long time and I truly am happy about that.

      The other paths are completely obscured at this point. I don’t think a scenario in which the Knicks would have both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard is completely out of the realm of possiblity (although given Howard’s health that might be more curse than blessing). I also think it’s possible they would have ended up overpaying a bunch of guys as they left their rookie deals, not been able to swing the big trade and be just as capped out as they are now but with something like a Gallo-Lee-Wilson Chandler core.

      It could be better. It could be worse. So why worry about it so much? Best Knicks team in 15 years. Can’t we at least wait until we’re back in the toilet before we start obsessing over the coulda/shoulda beens?

    25. Owen

      “the bottom line is we can talk all we want, but LeBron choosing NY was the only chance for a title for NY in this era. everything else is just choosing a different road to being an also-ran.”

      I am not so sure that the Chris Paul led Clippers can’t challenge for the title this year. He has to stay healthy, which is an issue you always note. But they have legit aspirations.

      I don’t know how Paul would have made it here. But it’s not hard to imagine that we could have put together a better package than the Eric Gordon/Aminu pu pu platter NO got.

      And at the end of the day if you are an also ran with Chris Paul on a max contract you at least get to watch him play…..

    26. ruruland

      Owen:
      Let me ask you this before I can get to the other substantive parts of your posts…What is the point of lamenting about not having Chris Paul, David Lee, Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Kenneth Faried, Joe Montana, Babe Ruth et al on a daily basis year after year?

      Is is true that this is the best Knicks team since the turn of the century?

      And wouldn’t a supposed fan of a team that’s been between second and third in its conference at least be moderately pleased/content with such season, without even considering the lowered expectations based on recent history?

      You know, as a fan of many sports teams and having many friends of those same teams, I’ve been witness to two championships in over 100 seasons of all the teams I root for. I’m sure if there are some Mets fans on this board they’re probably in worse shape than me.

      I would guess that the team’s I’ve rooted for probably have around a .500 record overall…

      I’ve never, nor have I known any fans who absolutely relished in the failure of their team (maybe if they’re tanking for a pick), especially not when they’re actually pretty good, just because it supports a certain perspective about building a team.

      That’s the point when you stop being a fan of a team. You pretend that it’s not.

      Sure, we all want our team to have the best player, we talk about missed opportunities, missing out in FA on whoever, or when a couple moves to set up a big signing don’t go as planned, whatever, but we didn’t spend day after day, week after week, month after month trashing the guys on the team, taking pleasure in that team’s failures because it supports whatever conceptual framework we have…. especially not when they’re having a really good season.

      What bothers me is that you try to have it both ways, which is really freaking cowardly.

      That’s why I really don’t like you. Maybe that’s my problem.

    27. jon abbey

      the part I don’t get is League Pass exists. it makes total, complete, 100 percent sense to me to prefer certain players to others, whether they’re on your team or not. but rooting for a team isn’t a contract you sign in blood at birth (BigBlueAl may be the exception here), it’s something you theoretically do for some kind of pleasure or enjoyment.

      what I don’t get is why you even watch the Knicks anymore: just get League Pass and watch every Denver and Clippers game, I’m sure that would be much more enjoyable. I know I’ve asked you this before, but no answer really makes sense to me. of course, I could ask myself the same thing and it wouldn’t be an easy answer there either, but with you it seems even more clearcut.

    28. ruruland

      jon abbey:
      the part I don’t get is League Pass exists. it makes total, complete, 100 percent sense to me to prefer certain players to others, whether they’re on your team or not. but rooting for a team isn’t a contract you sign in blood at birth (BigBlueAl may be the exception here), it’s something you theoretically do for some kind of pleasure or enjoyment.

      what I don’t get is why you even watch the Knicks anymore: just get League Pass and watch every Denver and Clippers game, I’m sure that would be much more enjoyable. I know I’ve asked you this before, but no answer really makes sense to me. of course, I could ask myself the same thing and it wouldn’t be an easy answer there either, but with you it seems even more clearcut.

      The difference is that while you are righteous and probably correct in feeling screwed over by Dolan and all of the hair-brained moves and countless mistakes, as any Knicks fan should, at least there’s a part of you that is still a fan of the team, the players that wears the Knicks jerseys.

      You can be honest about the past and pessimistic about the future and still enjoy winning in the present.

    29. Owen

      TheNameStam- Well, we are obsessing about it because we are Knicks fans who haven’t seen a championship in our lifetime, with no end to that drought remotely in sight. And we are commenters on a basketball blog. This is what we do. ;-)

      Look, we were 29-26 when we made the Melo trade and we finished the year 2 games over 500%. We were 6 games over 500% (though considerably better by differential) last year after adding Chandler and with an assist from Lin. And this year we need to finish 17-12 to finish at 50 wins.

      The Melo era is almost exactly two years old. And we don’t see to much better than when he arrived, ex the arrival of Chandler. The doubters have a legitimate beef.

    30. ruruland

      The funny thing is that Owen and Jowles’ people want to ostracize me as a non-Knicks fan because I don’t hate the Knicks like they do.

      In their world, being a Knicks fan is hating the Knicks (minus Chandler or Novak or whatever).

    31. ruruland

      Owen:
      TheNameStam- Well, we are obsessing about it because we are Knicks fans who haven’t seen a championship in our lifetime, with no end to that drought remotely in sight. And we are commenters on a basketball blog. This is what we do. ;-)

      Look, we were 29-26 when we made the Melo trade and we finished the year 2 games over 500%. We were 6 games over 500% (though considerably better by differential) last year after adding Chandler and with an assist from Lin. And this year we need to finish 17-12 to finish at 50 wins.

      The Melo era is almost exactly two years old. And we don’t see to much better than when he arrived, ex the arrival of Chandler. The doubters have a legitimate beef.

      But you’re not a merely a doubter, with merely a “beef.” You are well, well beyond that, to the point of trolling Knicks fans who dare like the Knicks as constructed, disappearing when they win.

    32. nicos

      Owen:
      They have Koufos, Faried, and Mcgee.

      I don’t see how we limit their fast break chances. Not many teams have had much success at it.

      And I don’t think there is really much evidence that fast break basketball works less well in the playoffs. Certainly, Miami and OKC seemed pretty effective on the break last year.

      Bottom line to this discussion for me is more Houston than Denver. Houston has one player over 26 in their rotation (delfino), 20 million in cap space opening up, a true young superstar, and a better team than we do by SRS.

      That’s the model we should have been following.

      Faried’s too small and still gets lost off of the ball too often to match up with Amar’e. Koufos doesn’t have the foot speed. McGee’s defensive acumen is every bit as bad as Amar’e's- you can’t rely on him to guard anybody. As I said, Denver’s ability to push would give the Knicks headaches but even against last year’s Lakers (who are even slower than this year’s Knicks) the game slowed enough that Denver’s halfcourt struggles hurt them. I’d add that a healthy Kidd is probably about as good a matchup on Andre Miller- who Denver still relies pretty heavily upon- as you’ll find.

    33. ruruland

      Right, and naturally we are supposed to forget that Owen’s argument, hinging on SRS– which “proves” that the Nuggets are better than the Knicks–when the last two years the Nuggets lost in the first round when having a higher SRS than their playoff opponent.

      Many of us pointed out before the playoffs why Denver would underachieve in the playoffs relative to regular season SRS, and most of the reasons we presented turned out accurate…. where was Owen?

      When dealing with someone with such little intellectual integrity as Owen (pretending to forget past arguments, failing to acknowledge when his arguments are defeated, disappearing when the empirical evidence doesn’t fit his hypotheses), shouldn’t we consider how little he has to stand on when it comes to the overall picture of what it means to be a Knicks fan?

    34. Owen

      The players are not the team. The fans who root for the players, they are what it’s about. My aficion is for the community of people who cheer the Knicks on and are the best, most knowledgeable fans in the world.

      Those people deserve a hell of a lot better than Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire on max contracts.

      And Jon, the reason I am a knicks fan is simply because I always have been and always will be. My parents had their third date at the Willis Reed game. I spent my entire childhood listening to west coast games under my pillow on WFAN.

      What I want is a championship for this fan base and this city. And from what I can see we are no closer to that than we were three years ago.

    35. Z-man

      Fear not, Owen, even in worst case scenario, Amare’s contract isn’t forever, in 2016 we can basically start from scratch if we want to. Grunwald is better than any GM we’ve had in a while, no?

      I’m going to second consecutive home game with my son tomorrow, meeting the Knicks with a school group on the Garden floor before going to seats in section 105. 2 for 2 so far this year, keep the karma going!

      Rooting hard for the Warriors tonight, though, seems like a good game thus far.

    36. flossy

      Owen: The Melo era is almost exactly two years old. And we don’t see to much better than when he arrived, ex the arrival of Chandler. The doubters have a legitimate beef.

      But regardless of who you credit, the Knicks are the best they’ve been in 15 years, so why not just enjoy it? Unless you think it’s Amar’e and Melo who are activelypreventing the Knicks from being led by Tyson Chandler to some higher glory.

      I get that Amar’e is overpaid (though I think neither Chandler or Melo lovers get their favorite Knick if Amar’e isn’t signed first, so that’s worth a pretty hefty signing bonus), but Melo is definitely worth a max deal in a league where Rudy Gay and Roy Hibbert get maxed. Moreover, the Knicks have managed to go $22 million over the cap with all 3 big contracts on board, and this season they’ve added a large helping of WP darlings like Kidd, Camby, Brewer and Prigs, so it’s not like anyone’s contract is truly crippling the team’s flexibility at this point.

    37. ruruland

      Owen:
      The players are not the team. The fans who root for the players, they are what it’s about. My aficion is for the community of people who cheer the Knicks on and are the best, most knowledgeable fans in the world.

      Those people deserve a hell of a lot better than Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire on max contracts.

      And Jon, the reason I am a knicks fan is simply because I always have been and always will be. My parents had their third date at the Willis Reed game. I spent my entire childhood listening to west coast games under my pillow on WFAN.

      What I want is a championship for this fan base and this city. And from what I can see we are no closer to that than we were three years ago.

      Willis Reed had a career.156 WS/48… BFD. Where was the Owen of their day persuading Knicks fans to hate their team for not having Bill Russell.

    38. ruruland

      Owen:

      What I want is a championship for this fan base and this city. And from what I can see we are no closer to that than we were three years ago.

      Okay, so when the Knicks make a hypothetical 9% improvement in win % next year, as they have from 2011-2013, they will be no closer to winning a championship than they are this year.

    39. ruruland

      How can someone sit there and say that a team 13 games over .500 and with HCA in the first round is in no way better positioned for a postseason run than one 2 games over .500 and fighting to make the playoffs?

      #owenlogic

    40. Z-man

      Sorry, ruru, comparing Melo to The Captain in any capacity is simply not allowed. Willis was feared and revered by Clyde and the rest of his teammates (perhaps the smartest NBA team ever) to a degree that Melo will simply never come close to sniffing.

    41. Owen

      Yeah, I really would have been complaining about Willis Reed putting up 15 win shares for a championship team. I would have been bitching all season long.

      And crying for months about Walt Frazier leading the league in WS/48 that year, while being the best perimeter defender in the league.

      Let’s be honest. Carmelo Anthony can’t hold Walt Frazier’s jockstrap.

      That’s the kind of player i would like to see playing for the Knicks. Hopefully I don’t have to wait another 45 years.

      ruruland: Willis Reed had a career.156 WS/48… BFD. Where was the Owen of their day persuading Knicks fans to hate their team for not having Bill Russell.

    42. Owen

      “But regardless of who you credit, the Knicks are the best they’ve been in 15 years, so why not just enjoy it? ”

      Think about the last 15 years of being a die-hard Knicks fan. And then think about the stories you heard growing up about the Holzman Knicks.

      Am I really crazy for wanting a little bit more?

      Also Rudy Gay, not worth the max. Hibbert, i don’t know either, would have to think about it a little longer, but that looks like an overpay.

    43. ruruland

      Owen:
      “But regardless of who you credit, the Knicks are the best they’ve been in 15 years, so why not just enjoy it? ”

      Think about the last 15 years of being a die-hard Knicks fan. And then think about the stories you heard growing up about the Holzman Knicks.

      Am I really crazy for wanting a little bit more?

      Also Rudy Gay, not worth the max. Hibbert, i don’t know either, would have to think about it a little longer, but that looks like an overpay.

      You’d have to think about that a little more?

    44. Z

      flossy: Knicks are the best they’ve been in 15 years…

      I know the years have been long, and the drought has made us all parched, but the Knicks HAVE been to both the finals and the ECF in the past 15 years.

      And, granted, I haven’t watched this team play at all this year, but is it really better than last year’s team? Has substituting Lin and Fields for Kidd, Felton, Camby, Thomas, et al really made the team better, in either the long term OR the short term?

    45. flossy

      I’m not old enough to pine for the Knicks of 40 years ago. That was a long time ago, and Clyde Frazier ain’t walking through that door. None of the players you said you’d add to your Knicks fantasy team (Lawson, Faried, David Lee etc.) are fit to hold Clyde’s jock strap either, and most who aren’t on rookie contracts make nearly the max themselves. So we don’t have Chris Paul? Yeah that is shame, but only 2-3 teams get consensus ‘once in a generation’ level talents, and no, the Knicks aren’t just entitled to one of the best players in the NBA simply because they’ve sucked for most of the last 15 years. When you look at the people get max deals in the this league, Melo in particular is far from the worst, and whether or not you think he’s earned his paycheck on the court, it’s likely the Knicks are still a lottery team if not for Amar’e instead of a top seed in the East.

    46. ruruland

      Z-man:
      Sorry, ruru, comparing Melo to The Captain in any capacity is simply not allowed. Willis was feared and revered by Clyde and the rest of his teammates (perhaps the smartest NBA team ever) to a degree that Melo will simply never come close to sniffing.

      It’s not a perfect comparison. The point is that the Knicks, prior to winning a championship, were a middling to sub.500 team with Reed at the center of it for quite a few years.

      Why would anyone want to become a Knicks fan then? If Owen was transported to that time as he is now, there’s no reason he’d root for that team.

    47. thenamestsam

      ruruland:
      How can someone sit there and say that a team 13 games over .500and with HCA in the first round is in no way better positioned for a postseason run than one 2 games over .500 and fighting to make the playoffs?

      #owenlogic

      Who’s being intellectually dishonest now? He didn’t say postseason run, he said championship. Now I personally think it’s stupid to take championships as the only barometer of your success which is why I’m pretty happy with this Knicks team. As I’ve said repeatedly they’re the best team in 15 years. That’s something, even if it’s not everything.

      But…
      If all you care about is championships then the Hollinger Playoff odds say we have a .9% chance at championship this year. I don’t know what it was the day of the Melo trade, but I don’t think its unreasonable to say we’re only marginally better positioned today than we were then for the current year and long run…that’s more complicated but hardly a slam dunk for either side in my view.

    48. ruruland

      thenamestsam: Who’s being intellectually dishonest now? He didn’t say postseason run, he said championship. Now I personally think it’s stupid to take championships as the only barometer of your success which is why I’m pretty happy with this Knicks team. As I’ve said repeatedly they’re the best team in 15 years. That’s something, even if it’s not everything.

      But…
      If all you care about is championships then the Hollinger Playoff odds say we have a .9% chance at championship this year. I don’t know what it was the day of the Melo trade, but I don’t think its unreasonable to say we’re only marginally better positioned today than we were then for the current year and long run…that’s more complicated but hardly a slam dunk for either side in my view.

      Well, obviously the deeper a team goes in the playoffs the more likely it is to win a championship.

      One could make the argument that there are 2-3 teams with a chance of winning a championship for the next few years, which makes Owen’s point moot in the first place because he’s not lamenting deals that would land the Knicks James or Durant.

      So, no, the Knicks are technically more likely to win a championship as a No.2 or No.3 seed than they were as a 6th-8th seed.

      To me, a 8-9% difference in winning percentage is not marginal.

      I’m not sure how one could argue it is. I’d like to read that argument.

    49. thenamestsam

      ruruland: Well, obviously the deeper a team goes in the playoffs the more likely it is to win a championship.

      One could make the argument that there are 2-3 teams with a chance of winning a championship for the next few years, which makes Owen’s point moot in the first place because he’s not lamenting deals that would land the Knicks James or Durant.

      So, no, the Knicks are technically more likely to win a championship as a No.2 or No.3 seed than they were as a 6th-8th seed.

      To me, a 8-9% difference in winning percentage is not marginal.

      I’m not sure how one could argue it is. I’d like to read that argument.

      If your goal is to win a championship and your current status is a .9% chance of achieving that goal it would seem that by definition any improvement you’ve made from any prior state has been, at best, marginal.

    50. ruruland

      thenamestsam: If your goal is to win a championship and your current status is a .9% chance of achieving that goal it would seem that by definition any improvement you’ve made from any prior state has been, at best, marginal.

      You’re stating .9% as if it actually has some real world meaning. I don’t think it does. It’s a projection.

      It’s James or Durant (and their good-great supporting casts) vs the field, would you argue that?

      1% odds aren’t bad when we consider that the Thunder and Heat are overwhelming favorites to win the championship.

      Given that the Knicks cannot acquire or draft these once in 30-40 year players, then the only test that matters is the Knicks vs the rest of the field for a championship, which they stack up pretty good, much better than they did prior to the Melo trade.

      You wouldn’t argue with that?

    51. thenamestsam

      ruruland: You’re stating .9% as if it actually has some real world meaning. I don’t think it does. It’s a projection.

      It’s James or Durant(and their good-great supporting casts) vs the field, would you argue that?

      1% odds aren’t bad when we consider that the Thunder and Heat are overwhelming favorites to win the championship.

      Given that the Knicks cannot acquire or draft these once in30-40 year players, then the only test that matters is the Knicks vs the rest of the field for a championship, which they stack up pretty good, much better than they did prior to the Melo trade.

      You wouldn’t argue withthat?

      All I’m saying is that you basically called someone else an idiot for suggesting the Knicks aren’t closer to winning a title than they were 2 years ago. Now you’re saying that you don’t actually think they’re closer to winning a title in reality, just closer in some alternate universe where the 2 best teams cease to exist. You’re disagreeing with him just because you don’t like him and because you think that by twisting his words you can score points in a silly internet feud. There’s no need for that.

      Do they stack up better with the non-elite of the field than they did 2 years ago? Sure. Are they closer to actually winning a championship than they were? Marginally, if at all. Are they closer today than they would have been did they not go down this path? Completely unanswerable in my opinion.

      Anyway that’s all I have to say about that for the night. For the record I agree with 99% of the things you post, but your interactions with Owen and THCJ have taken on such a personal tone that you’ve lost all perspective when it comes to those two. “Wise men don’t argue with fools” and all that.

    52. Owen

      Lol, eviscerating us both with one calm, collected post.

      I don’t think I am a fool to think that we could have a team that was just as good with a future that was much brighter than it is right now….

      And I don’t agree that the Knicks can’t ever get one of those once in a generation players, by trade or free agency. We simply haven’t done a good job of it.

    53. thenamestsam

      Owen:
      Lol, eviscerating us both with one calm, collected post.

      I don’t think I am a fool to think that we could have a team that was just as good with a future that was much brighter than it is right now….

      And I don’t agree that the Knicks can’t ever get one of those once in a generation players, by trade or free agency. We simply haven’t done a good job of it.

      Didn’t mean fool to be insulting. I agree with him more but respect both your posts. Just saying that when you and he tangle you both just send up looking like two people who don’t care for each other or agree about much bickering on the internet. Both your posts are like 50% better when they’re not addressed to each other.

    54. BigBlueAL

      jon abbey:
      but rooting for a team isn’t a contract you sign in blood at birth (BigBlueAl may be the exception here), it’s something you theoretically do for some kind of pleasure or enjoyment.

      I need to find that contract and burn it lol.

    55. Owen

      “Both your posts are like 50% better when they’re not addressed to each other.”

      That I certainly can’t argue with.

      Look, I don’t know what to say other than that i am really frustrated. I thought after the pain of 2004-2009 and the Isiah Thomas era there would be better days ahead. I should have known better but I envisioned something a little more exciting than battling with the Nets, Hawks, Pacers, and Rose-less Bulls for the honor of getting eliminated by Miami.

    56. BigBlueAL

      I think besides the problems this franchise has had getting “great” players since drafting Ewing they havent exactly been good in terms of the front office and coaching staff which is 100% the fault of Dolan since JVG and Checketts left in 2001.

      Pat Riley in the 90′s is a great example of how just the right head coach can completely change the culture of a franchise for the better.

    57. Owen

      I do wish we had a chance to draft Oladipo. He has a shot at being the second coming of Walt Frazier. Maybe a .9 chance, but it’s something….

    58. ruruland

      thenamestsam:

      Anyway that’s all I have to say about that for the night. For the record I agree with 99% of the things you post, but your interactions with Owen and THCJ have taken on such a personal tone that you’ve lost all perspective when it comes to those two. “Wise men don’t argue with fools” and all that.

      I suppose if I can mute Knicks games with Breen and Frazier, I can resist posting in response to Owen and others.

      I will agree to a response moratorium to the end of the season if Owen and cohorts do as well.

    59. ruruland

      “Recently, Stoudemire has expanded his offensive repertoire to moving without the ball more to the elbows for jump shots.”

      –Zwerling.

      Man are the Knicks beat reporter (outside of Herring) horrible.

    60. ruruland

      Owen:
      “Both your posts are like 50% better when they’re not addressed to each other.”

      That I certainly can’t argue with.

      Look, I don’t know what to say other than that i am really frustrated. I thought after the pain of 2004-2009 and the Isiah Thomas era there would be better days ahead. I should have known better but I envisioned something a little more exciting than battling with the Nets, Hawks, Pacers, and Rose-less Bulls for the honor of getting eliminated by Miami.

      So (and please agree to moratorium after this exchange) you expect (not want) a team that can beat Wade and Lebron?

      That ain’t the Nuggets and Rockets.

    61. ruruland

      K-Mart/Chandler defense at end of games will be beastly.

      Let’s remember, Martin was basically Tyson Chandler defensively (minus the rebounding, but quicker laterally and a better hedger on screens) for a decade.

      He was a guy you built your defense around — you want him to be in pick and rolls.

      I don’t think Kenyon can do that for 36 minutes like he could prior to the micro-surgeries, but for 15-20 a game, especially with Chandler beside him??? Yeah

      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/36930/practice-report-woody-says-camby-close

      After practice, Tyson Chandler raved about Martin’s defensive versatility.

      “He’s going to bring a lot,” the All-Star center said. “K-Mart is the type of the guy that we can switch him in a lot of good positions. He’s great in pick-and-roll sets, great with trapping and he’s athletic.”

    62. Donnie Walsh

      ruruland: I suppose if I can mute Knicks games with Breen and Frazier, I can resist posting in response to Owen and others.

      I will agree to a response moratorium to the end of the season if Owen and cohorts do as well.

      Owen’s original post on this thread was a solicited response to a question posed by DMar on the last thread. It had nothing to do with you, yet you proceeded to call him cowardly, dishonest, a troll, and someone that you “really don’t like”. So I’m not sure why Owen needs to agree to your moratorium. I’ve never read a personal attack on you by him outside of possibly implying that you a carpetbagger, which isn’t all that slanderous, all things considered.

    63. Owen

      “I will agree to a response moratorium to the end of the season if Owen and cohorts do as well.”

      It’s a little difficult, given i am unhappy with Melo, and you act as if any comment directed at Melo is a personal attack. Also, I didn’t start today’s exchange. You did, with that inspired “LMAO @ Owen once again” opener…..

      Hopefully Melo will change my mind in the next ten games. But if he doesn’t, I am probably going to be out there floating Melo for Granger and George or Hill all offseason.

      And that I am sure won’t go down well on your end…..

      Of course, a huge playoff run will redeem all. I won’t have a problem with Melo if he takes Miami to the brink….

    64. ruruland

      Owen:
      “I will agree to a response moratorium to the end of the season if Owen and cohorts do as well.”

      It’s a little difficult, given i am unhappy with Melo, and you act as if any comment directed at Melo is a personal attack. Also, I didn’t start today’s exchange. You did, with that inspired “LMAO @ Owen once again” opener…..

      Hopefully Melo will change my mind in the next ten games. But if he doesn’t, I am probably going to be out there floating Melo for Granger and George or Hill all offseason.

      And that I am sure won’t go down well on your end…..

      Of course, a huge playoff run will redeem all. I won’t have a problem with Melo if he takes Miami to the brink….

      So is that a yes or no? We (I’m) fucking up this board. Let’s just be done with it.

    65. Owen

      That’s a no. Not sure why I shouldn’t post my views. You are free to ignore them and I will reciprocate like I mostly do.

      Anyway, it’s two days without games, the board will survive. It will all be a distant memory when a new post goes up tomorrow morning.

    66. Brian Cronin

      Speaking of Herring, his latest article about Kidd and Shump’s shooting slumps is pretty mind-blowing. Check this out from the article according to Synergy: “In the 16 games he’s played since returning from knee surgery, Shumpert has been left open almost for almost 90% of his opportunities.” Makes his horrible shooting even tougher to swallow.

      http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323384604578328473517907536.html

      Holy shit, is that number really accurate? That’s insane!

    67. ruruland

      ^^^
      That is why Herring is the best Knicks beat reporter. Need his Synergy media account though. 90 percent open jumpers for Shumpert?

      So much great analysis can be done with Synergy.

    68. Owen

      That is a great article. And it’s amazing to see points per possession and synergy stats in the WSJ. Big change in the last 5 years.

      I do think Kidd is still finding ways to be productive. His boarding and quick hands haven’t fallen off though his shooting certainly has.

      I would bet that Kidd bounces back but suffers the rest of the year in comparison to his epically fast start.

      Brian Cronin: Holy shit, is that number really accurate? That’s insane!

    69. ruruland

      Owen:
      That is a great article. And it’s amazing to see points per possession and synergy stats in the WSJ. Big change in the last 5 years.

      I do think Kidd is still finding ways to be productive. His boarding and quick hands haven’t fallen off though his shooting certainly has.

      I would bet that Kidd bounces back but suffers the rest of the year in comparison to his epically fast start.

      Yeah, his rebound and hands are obviously great, I still think he’s given the Knicks the most consistent rotations and best perimeter isolation sequences, maybe that’s sad idk.

      When he gets beat it’s pretty brutal, and there are some matchups he just has no chance with, but he’s pretty solid against most two guards.

      What I’ve been most disappointed with isn’t his shooting, it’s his passing. From all I watched on synergy the last two years I’ve been frankly shocked at how poor some of the relatively easy passes he’s been unable to execute (a lob to Chandler from four feet away for example, a basic over the top pass to Melo in the post)

    70. yellowboy90

      ruruland: Yeah, his rebound and hands are obviously great, I still think he’s given the Knicks the most consistent rotations and best perimeter isolation sequences, maybe that’s sad idk.

      When he gets beat it’s pretty brutal, and there are some matchups he just has no chance with, but he’s pretty solid against most two guards.

      What I’ve been most disappointed with isn’t his shooting, it’s his passing. From all I watched on synergy the last two years I’ve been frankly shocked at how poor some of the relatively easy passes he’s been unable to execute (a lob to Chandler from four feet away for example, a basic over the top pass to Melo in the post)

      I am glad you said it because his passing is hurting the team almost every game. He has a lazy pass or two that goes the other way for a layup. Couple that with his entry passes to the post and the bad lobs it gets frustrating. Some of that is on Woody for not letting Prigs play. Prigs is no where near perfect either but at least he can hit a shot and when he doesn’t gamble he plays decent D

    71. ruruland

      yellowboy90: I am glad you said it because his passing is hurting the team almost every game. He has a lazy pass or two that goes the other way for a layup. Couple that with his entry passes to the post and the bad lobs it gets frustrating. Some of that is on Woody for not letting Prigs play. Prigs is no where near perfect either but at least he can hit a shot and when he doesn’t gamble he plays decent D

      He had some turnover issues in Dallas, but it’s like he’s lost his touch, because while he’d turn a few over he’d always make a couple great passes.

      I think Prigs should get more run over Kidd, see if reducing his minutes few a few weeks could help him rebound.

    72. BigBlueAL

      How the hell did the Bulls lose at home tonight to the Cavs w/o Irving?? Are they trying to fall to the 6th seed to face the Knicks in the 1st round??

    73. Owen

      i actually do agree his passing has been poor of late. I think you pointed out that the crazy only J Kidd could have made that pass hasn’t been in evidence this year.

      But i still think he has more left in the tank…..

      And our other guard options are so poor running him out there and hoping for the best is our best bet.

      In the spirit of amicability, here is a request. Why did Kidd pass on that shot against Toronto? My memory is that he simply bobbled the pass a bit, or was perhaps trying to one time a pass. I remember a bobble but I am not sure it actually happened. Fire up the Synergy account and take a look, i look forward to reading your reportage in the morning….

    74. ruruland

      So Chris Herring told me the following on Twitter: “Oddly, Melo, Smith & Novak are each open on 55% of their jump shot attempts. They shoot 55%, 50% & 46% when open, respectively.”

    75. ruruland

      ruruland:
      So Chris Herring told me the following on Twitter: “Oddly, Melo, Smith & Novak are each open on 55% of their jump shot attempts. They shoot 55%, 50% & 46% when open, respectively.”

      Owen, don’t you think this would be a fascinating study, tying this into usage?

    76. ruruland

      Herring followed with this: “Average player is left open 60% of the time, and shoots 41% when that’s the case.”

    77. ruruland

      Owen:
      i actually do agree his passing has been poor of late. I think you pointed out that the crazy only J Kidd could have made that pass hasn’t been in evidence this year.

      But i still think he has more left in the tank…..

      And our other guard options are so poor running him out there and hoping for the best is our best bet.

      In the spirit of amicability, here is a request. Why did Kidd pass on that shot against Toronto? My memory is that he simply bobbled the pass a bit, or was perhaps trying to one time a pass. I remember a bobble but I am not sure it actually happened. Fire up the Synergy account and take a look, i look forward to reading your reportage in the morning….

      I personally think he didn’t want to take the shot/lacked confidence.

      He’s passed up a few open jumpers in recent weeks, not just that crucial one from Melo (or was it JR?)

    78. ruruland

      Owen:
      i actually do agree his passing has been poor of late. I think you pointed out that the crazy only J Kidd could have made that pass hasn’t been in evidence this year.

      But i still think he has more left in the tank…..

      And our other guard options are so poor running him out there and hoping for the best is our best bet.

      In the spirit of amicability, here is a request. Why did Kidd pass on that shot against Toronto? My memory is that he simply bobbled the pass a bit, or was perhaps trying to one time a pass. I remember a bobble but I am not sure it actually happened. Fire up the Synergy account and take a look, i look forward to reading your reportage in the morning….

      I have to believe that one of Shump/JR/Felton will post some semblance of a hot streak in this final 30 game stretch.

      That should help things, because along with Kidd they’ve all been really bad at the same time.

    79. jon abbey

      Kidd has been passing up pretty much every shot possible in recent weeks, and it’s not that he hasn’t been making the spectacular/special passes, it’s that he’s so predictably been making the easy/routine ones that guys are starting to jump the passing lanes on him at times and it’s led to some ugly turnovers.

    80. yellowboy90

      jon abbey:
      Kidd has been passing up pretty much every shot possible in recent weeks, and it’s not that he hasn’t been making the spectacular/special passes, it’s that he’s so predictably been making the easy/routine ones that guys are starting to jump the passing lanes on him at times and it’s led to some ugly turnovers.

      exactly especially when he is out there playing the pg role

    81. nicos

      Owen:

      In the spirit of amicability, here is a request. Why did Kidd pass on that shot against Toronto? My memory is that he simply bobbled the pass a bit, or was perhaps trying to one time a pass. I remember a bobble but I am not sure it actually happened. Fire up the Synergy account and take a look, i look forward to reading your reportage in the morning….

      Synergy seems to be down at the moment but from what I recall, JR had the ball at the top of the key and passed to a wide open Kidd who didn’t even look at the basket and tossed it back to JR. JR one-timed it back to Kidd a second time who then bobbled it and passed it back once again to JR who then swung it to Melo for a contested (and missed) three.
      I’m not sure what the answer is with Kidd- I’d love to give him a couple of weeks off and see if that helps but that won’t happen. Kidd was playing like a legitimate all-star for the first six weeks of the season- if that Kidd showed back up the Knicks would have a much better than a .9% chance of winning a title. I’d rather sit Kidd and go into the playoffs as a 4 or 5 seed (or even 6) with a fresh Kidd than be the 2 or 3 seed with Kidd ineffective. You’re probably still going to have to beat the same teams anyway and an truly effective Kidd is worth as much to me as home court advantage. The problem is there’s no guarantee any amount of rest will really help at his age and he’s almost certainly not going to shoot 60% from three like he did early in the season anyway.

    82. Z-man

      Owen:
      Lol, eviscerating us both with one calm, collected post.

      I don’t think I am a fool to think that we could have a team that was just as good with a future that was much brighter than it is right now….

      And I don’t agree that the Knicks can’t ever get one of those once in a generation players, by trade or free agency. We simply haven’t done a good job of it.

      I think you have to see things from the business perspective as well. With the Garden renovation requiring $175 for seats I used to get for $40 just a few years ago, you have to have some big names on the billboard (at least it’s logical to believe that, although winning trumps big names).

      Again, this team is only hopelessly capped out for the next 2.5 years. Melo is certainly a trade asset and probably will be for the duration of his contract. Only Amare is grossly overpaid right now.

      My biggest gripe (and I am lucky enough to have rooted for the Reed-Frazier Knicks) is the way we play. The Spurs and the hated Celts have played the game the most like the old Knicks for the last 5-6 years. Regardless of w’s and l’s, we play ugly basketball (except for a few games earlier this year and, frankly, during some of the Linsanity games although that wasn’t really sustainable.)

      I long for the Knicks to play aesthetically pleasing basketball again, but for now, I’m OK with a team that at least can win more than it loses and that has a shot at a long playoff run.

    83. Brian Cronin

      I long for the Knicks to play aesthetically pleasing basketball again, but for now, I’m OK with a team that at least can win more than it loses and that has a shot at a long playoff run.

      Yep. Heck, like I’ve been saying all season, I just want to see the second round for the first time in twelve years!!

    84. Nick C.

      Eh, this is fine for what it is. Compared to the literally unrootable and duplicative style of players hat used to litter the roster these guys are a godsend. One Melo, one JR that’s fine and necessary but when we had whole rosters of that style of player it was hateful. For most people the high water mark was the Ewing Oakley era, where every year, even though they never did it, they were able to push the Bulls and leave you thinking next year we’ll get ‘em.

      On a unrelated note at one point there was talk on the board about how with Melo and Amare’s (and maybe Tyson’s) huge contracts they could not cobble together the rest of a roster and would have to fill it with dregs. Last year with Lin and Novak emerging out of nowhere and JR landing in our laps it seemed to be a moot point. This year though with Carmelo and the guys that can’t do shit on their own much less need to be guarded, having to fill out the roster and count on retired players (Kenyon and Sheed) the chronically injured for 30 games (Camby) and the past their expiration date Kidd and Kurt, do we want to revisit that theory?

    85. Frank

      yeah I we need to get away from the mindset that “if we had just done this 1 thing differently we would be favorites for the championship!”. maybe this whole discussion is my fault since I wrote that semi-rant about Donnie Walsh, but to be clear, I am very happy with this team right now. The Knicks are relevant again, and were considered real title contenders as recently as a month ago or so. In another month, who knows? Maybe everyone will change their minds again.

      It takes an enormous amount of good planning but also an enormous amount of LUCK to become a true contender. IMHO the true contenders are (in no particular order) – SA, LAC, OKC, and Miami. San Antonio had to super-luck into Duncan in the lottery, and wouldn’t even have been in position for that unless Robinson had suffered a season-ending injury. They did a great job drafting Parker/Manu– everyone else on the team has changed but those 3 are the constants. But everything started (and will probably end when he retires) with Duncan, and getting him was a moonshot re: their lottery chances – and not even because they only had a 16% chance of winning the lottery, but because they happened to win it in a year that there was obviously a HoF-level talent at the top.

      The Clips also won the lottery despite having a 16% chance and got Blake Griffin, another no-brainer pick. Without Griffin, I’m pretty sure CP3 doesn’t agree to a trade to them.

      OKC obviously hit it big with all their picks basically, but what happens if Portland actually listens to their doctors pre-draft and take Durant instead of Oden? As I recall, there were tons of red flags about Oden’s entire bottom half back then.

      And Miami just happened to be there for the taking when the Big 3 colluded (almost certainly illegally) to go there. That doesn’t count.

      Once LBJ decided to go elsewhere, our chance of a chip within this 4-5 year window was basically <10%. I think we've done about as well as we could have.

    86. Frank

      Another way of saying it is – we shot for the moon, mortgaged 2 seasons and a ton of assets to make that pitch to LBJ in June of 2010. Pretty much everyone here (maybe not Owen, can’t remember) agreed that LBJ was such a transcendent talent that it was worth it. It was a super-high risk move (especially since the other 2 most prominent FAs all ended up in MIA too) that we all knew came with significant potential downside. The fact that we are even (or were just a few weeks ago) in the title contention discussion is a victory in my eyes. Yes, it’s not perfect, we’d all love to have CP3 etc. but I think this is pretty good right now.

      And like so many things (like our ridiculous Congress, for instance), sometimes we should just take the really good and not worry so much about why we don’t have the “perfect”.

    87. Owen

      Frank – Reasonable people can disagree about whether the Knicks right now are “good enough” or not. I guess I would rather be a 30 win team with massive cap space opening up and a raft of lottery picks than a 50 win team with a marginal chance at a title. But that’s just me.

      I do think I noted most of those issues you did in my original post. And in response to Z-Man, as i said, if i were an owner I probably wouldn’t talk with such nonchalance about blowing things up and destroying attendance. I also agree there is an enormous amount of luck involved in building a successful franchise. At the same time there is a lot of skill.

      Look at the production the Spurs are getting from Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Matt Bonner, Boris Diaw, and most of all Tiago Splitter this year.

      Also, there is the question of aesthetics. As a fan of both defense and ball movement this just isn’t my cup of tea.

      But anyway, I look forward to having egg on my face as the Knicks run off ten straight wins…..

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