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Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Dec 18 2012)

  • [New York Newsday] The days of Linsanity seem like a passing fad (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 01:26:05 EST)
    For nearly three weeks, he owned New York. Jeremy Lin went from sleeping under the covers on his brother's sofa to running an offense on the cover of Time magazine. The undrafted Harvard grad inspired headlines, rap songs, e-books and a nerd-chic pride that resonated with underdogs everywhere.

  • [New York Post] Rocket-fueled Jeremy Lin hands Melo-less Knicks 1st home loss (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:10:46 -0500)
    Jeremy Lin 2, Knicks 0.
    Lin has always played his best at the Garden with Carmelo Anthony sidelined with an injury and last night was no exception.
    Lin and the Rockets ransacked the Garden, built a 27-point lead and posted a 109-96 rout to soil the Knicks’ 10-0 unbeaten record…

  • [New York Post] Lin-evitable heroics turn MSG cheers into jeers (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:10:27 -0500)
    When he was introduced last night at the Garden, where he became an international phenomenon one season ago, Jeremy Lin received a decidedly warm and positive reception.
    And that lasted until the Knicks fell behind, which was real quick. Fans who once adored Lin wanted back rent for Landry Fields…

  • [New York Post] Hou-mongous night for old pal (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 05:20:01 -0500)
    Jeremy Lin got his money. Last night at the Garden he got the last word on the Knicks. No, not the word “Linsanity.â? The word “blowout.â?
    After the Rockets’ 109-96 victory over the Knicks was in the books, Lin made it clear he has moved on in every way possible…

  • [New York Post] Copeland scores Melo-like 29 points (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 03:56:44 -0500)
    Chris Copeland is not going to turn Wally Pipp into a verb.
    Even with Jeremy Lin running up and down the court last night at the Garden, serving a reminder that the highly improbable isn’t impossible, there is no situation where Copeland is going to supplant Carmelo Anthony.
    But…

  • [New York Post] Stoudemire jumping into Knicks D-League practice (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 03:56:44 -0500)
    Amar’e Stoudemire is back today â?? as a D-Leaguer.
    Stoudemire was cleared yesterday to practice and will do so today with the Knicks’ D-League affiliate, the Erie Bayhawks, which is practicing at the team’s Westchester facility the next few days.
    It’s the largest step to the power forward…

  • [New York Post] Felton caught off-guard (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 01:12:28 -0500)
    Already with a bone bruise on his left hand, Raymond Felton revealed he now has a bone bruise on his right hand. And last night he had something of a bruised ego as his predecessor, Jeremy Lin, ran roughshod over the Knicks in the Rockets’ embarrassing 109-96 conquest at the…

  • [New York Daily News] Jeremy still feel-Lin the Garden connection (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:19:04 GMT)
    The Knicks may have bid good riddance to Jeremy Lin last summer, but the man and the myth behind Linsanity insists he had the “time of my lifeâ? during his whirlwind rise to stardom earlier this year in New York.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: In different costume, Lin still a hit on Broadway (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:36:04 GMT)
    The man who authored Linsanity couldn’t have scripted it any better. Jeremy Lin got out of the Garden Monday night with a win over his old team, sending the Knicks to their first home defeat of the season. It wasn’t Linsanity, not anything close, because that was a once-in-a-lifetime thing.

  • [New York Daily News] GARD-LIN PARTY: Jeremy wins return to MSG with Rockets (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:35:49 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin was mauled twice by Tyson Chandler and was still standing. Raymond Felton repeatedly tried to attack Lin but in the end the only damage Felton caused was to his shooting percentage.

  • [New York Daily News] Battered Knicks ‘Cope’ without Melo in lineup (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:21:30 GMT)
    Are you ready for Cope-sanity? Lost in the return of Jeremy Lin Monday night, was the play of rookie Chris Copeland, who scored all of his game-high 29 points in the second half.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks Insider: Amar’e nears return (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:39:59 GMT)
    Amar’e Stoudemire’s long road to recovery is reaching the home stretch as the Knicks announced on Monday that the oft-injured power forward has been cleared to practice.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Notebook: Lin says, 'It was great to be back' (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:34:30 EDT)
    On Sunday, Jeremy Lin said he just wanted to get his first trip to Madison Square Garden out of the way.
    But it sure looked like he had a good time on the Garden floor Monday night.
    Lin hurt the Knicks with an efficient 22 points and eight assists in Houston’s win. It was a little like Linsanity all over again.
    “For me, it was great to be back. It was a lot of fun playing on the court again,” Lin said after the Rockets handed the Knicks their first home loss of the season.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Ray: 'Got a little taste of our own medicine' (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:24:51 EDT)
    Jeremy Lin has put a unique stamp on the Knicks. Last season, it was Linsanity. This season, it’s a 2-0 record against the Knicks, the best mark of any of their opponents, and causing them to lose their first game at the Garden, dropping them to 10-1.
    While the Knicks won’t face the Rockets again in the regular season, Monday night’s 109-96 loss validates something they’ve been doing well all season and paints a picture of where they should improve.

  • [New York Times] Lin Leads Rockets’ Rout in Return to New York (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:23:45 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin will never forget that brief, beautiful stretch of basketball known as Linsanity.

  • [New York Times] College Men’s Roundup: Syracuse’s Boeheim Reaches 900 Wins (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:09:05 GMT)
    Jim Boeheim became the third Division I men’s coach to reach 900 wins as No. 3 Syracuse beat Detroit in the Gotham Classic.

  • [New York Times] Misfiring Deron Williams Takes Shot at the Nets’ System (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:09:05 GMT)
    Deron Williams, who is is averaging 17 points and 8.3 assists while shooting 38.8 percent from the field, said the offense he ran in Utah was a better fit for him than the Nets’ system.

  • [New York Times] Store Shelves Show Jeremy Lin Mania Is Over (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 08:00:10 GMT)
    With discounted Jeremy Lin T-shirts and untouched Rockets jerseys, the shelves at sports stores show how Linsanity has petered out in New York.

  • [New York Times] On Basketball: Kevin McHale and Jeremy Lin Face Emotional Times (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:50:05 GMT)
    As the Rockets went to Madison Square Garden, Kevin McHale was wrestling with the death of his daughter, and Jeremy Lin was revisiting the primary site of last season’s heroics.

  • [New York Times] Rockets 109, Knicks 96: Lin Helps Hand Knicks Their First Home Loss (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:48:02 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin scored 22 points and had 8 assists and James Harden scored 28 as the Knicks suffered their first loss of the season at Madison Square Garden.

  • [New York Times] Ibaka Powers Thunder Past Spurs in West Battle (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:11:54 GMT)
    Serge Ibaka produced a season-best 25 points and 17 rebounds to spark the red-hot Oklahoma City Thunder to a 107-93 victory over Western Conference rivals San Antonio on Monday.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Knicks Speak on Lin’s Return (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 05:15:39 GMT)
    Four players offer their thoughts on the Houston Rockets’ most famous former Knick, Jeremy Lin.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Anthony Will Be Game-Time Decision (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 05:12:16 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony is expected to test his left ankle before the Knicks play the Rockets Monday night to see if he will be able to play.

  • [New York Times] Thunder Stay Atop West by Thumping Spurs (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 05:04:04 GMT)
    Serge Ibaka tied his career-best with 25 points and grabbed a season-high 17 rebounds, and Oklahoma City (20-4) beat the San Antonio Spurs, 107-93.

  • [New York Times] Suns Come From Behind to Beat Kings 101-90 (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 04:48:09 GMT)
    Shannon Brown scored 14 of his 22 points in the third quarter, Jared Dudley added 20 points and the Phoenix Suns pulled off another big rally to beat the Sacramento Kings 101-90 Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Lin Leads Rockets’ Rout in Return to New York (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 04:38:57 GMT)
    His old fans booed him. His old friend clobbered him.

  • [New York Times] Ibaka Powers Thunder Past Spurs in West Battle (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 04:26:34 GMT)
    Serge Ibaka’s season-best performance of 25 points and 17 rebounds sparked the red-hot Oklahoma City Thunder to a 107-93 victory over the West rival San Antonio Spurs on Monday.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies Overcome Slow Start to Beat Bulls (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 04:05:51 GMT)
    Mike Conley had 17 points, Zach Randolph added 10 points and 15 rebounds and the Memphis Grizzlies overcame a poor start to beat the Chicago Bulls 80-71 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Davis Scores 28, Leads Magic to Win (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 03:03:19 GMT)
    Glen Davis scored 28 points and J.J. Redick had 18 points and seven assists as the Orlando Magic beat the Minnesota Timberwolves 102-93 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Tears and Smiles by the Billion at London Games (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 02:08:38 GMT)
    Britain spent nearly nine billion pounds to create a magical and ambitious wonderland of venues for the 2012 Olympic Games, where fans were thrilled across a capital whose grime and grandeur alike got a makeover of global glamour.

  • [New York Times] Lin Returns to New York, Recalls Linsanity Fondly (Tue, 18 Dec 2012 01:17:55 GMT)
    Jeremy Lin returned Monday to the home he never thought he was leaving, reflecting fondly on Linsanity but not trying to recreate it.

  • 94 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Dec 18 2012)

    1. flossy

      Not much to take away from a game like last night, except that a team consisting of Felton, Kidd, Chandler, Jr, Brewer, Copeland, Novak, Kurt Thomas and Prigioni would not win a whole lot of games in this league. This squad could badly use Carmelo Anthony. And Amar’e Stoudemire. And Iman Shumpert, Marcus Camby, Rasheed Wallace…

      Tyson was awful for the most part last night, but I think having Stat and Melo out is particularly tough on him. On offense, the team basically has to run through his RnR play and the movement it creates or else it sputters out with a lot of dribbling and chucking from the perimeter. As efficient a finisher as he is, I don’t think he’s suited (especially compared to someone like Amar’e) to have that play run for him 20+ times a game and have it be the backbone of a successful offense against a good defender like Asik. With no pick and pop game and no ability put the ball on the floor at all, all the pressure is on Felton to give him the ball right at the rim or score on his own, whereas Amar’e can make a lot of different things happen off a PnR action.

      On defense, not having any other interior scoring threat (or really any other competent big) is clearly making Chandler play to avoid fouls rather than try to dominate. Of course, he can’t even avoid fouls on nights when the Knicks perimeter D would embarrass a turnstile.

      At least the next 3 (BK, CHI, MIN) are at home before LAL on Christmas. If we can take two of those and get Melo (and maybe Amar’e!) back within the next week, that would be pretty good if you ask me…

    2. JK47

      The Knicks are still 18-6, playing at the same .750 clip they’ve been playing at since Woodson took over. They’re 5th in the league in SRS. They’re a good team.

      But the defense… It’s not good. It’s mediocre at best and I’m not willing to simply attribute that to “they’re pacing themselves.” They allow a .507 eFG%, which is 25th in the league. The layup line has returned. The Knicks have the 18th ranked defense, and they’ve played the 24th hardest schedule.

    3. Nick C.

      Amare can shoot on the pick and roll. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves and start attributing magic powers to him. Since he came here if he gets the ball at the elbow and tries to create it’s a turnover waiting to happen. The issue is was last years awful shooting an aberration.

    4. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      hardan wa s rly good last nite but i think he not much a upgrade ovar shumpart, i mena

      can he make not 1 but TWO turnovars bnext to 1 anothar on teh legend D_WADE?

    5. flossy

      Nick C.:
      Amare can shoot on the pick and roll. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves and start attributing magic powers to him. Since he came here if he gets the ball at the elbow and tries to create it’s a turnover waiting to happen. The issue is was last years awful shooting an aberration.

      It’s hardly magic powers, it’s the truth–Amar’e can take 3 dribbles to the hoop without turning it over, the key is he needs to get the ball in motion. He shouldn’t be getting the ball at a standstill and trying to isolate from 18 feet, but he can score of a PnR when he’s farther than arm’s length from the rim, which Chandler can not.

      The pre-Melo Knicks with Felton ran a nice play for Amar’e where be basically curled sharply around a screen set just above the foul line and got the ball right as he was turning the corner–he’d either have a step on his man and take a few hard dribbles to the rack for a score or pull up sharp, let his defender’s momentum create a bit of separation, and can a 15-foot jumper. I’d love to see that play return, especially if the Knicks play a lot of four-out ball in the 2nd unit with [PG - any of them], JR, Novak and Sheed.

    6. Hubert Davis

      JK47:
      The Knicks are still 18-6, playing at the same .750 clip they’ve been playing at since Woodson took over.They’re 5th in the league in SRS.They’re a good team.

      But the defense… It’s not good.It’s mediocre at best and I’m not willing to simply attribute that to “they’re pacing themselves.”They allow a .507 eFG%, which is 25th in the league.The layup line has returned.The Knicks have the 18th ranked defense, and they’ve played the 24th hardest schedule.

      Maybe Woodson should hire a “defensive coordinator” because all he does is coach offense.

    7. Nick C.

      flossy: It’s hardly magic powers, it’s the truth–Amar’e can take 3 dribbles to the hoop without turning it over, the key is he needs to get the ball in motion. He shouldn’t be getting the ball at a standstill and trying to isolate from 18 feet, but he can score of a PnR when he’s farther than arm’s length from the rim, which Chandler can not. The pre-Melo Knicks with Felton ran a nice play for Amar’e where be basically curled sharply around a screen set just above the foul line and got the ball right as he was turning the corner–he’d either have a step on his man and take a few hard dribbles to the rack for a score or pull up sharp, let his defender’s momentum create a bit of separation, and can a 15-foot jumper. I’d love to see that play return, especially if the Knicks play a lot of four-out ball in the 2nd unit with [PG - any of them], JR, Novak and Sheed.

      The second unit definitely could use a focal point, because they often resort to passing it around the perimeter. When the threes are falling its awesome but such as last night it can be the place where games slip away. Hopefully when Amare comes back I can see that play many times and remember where I had my memory jogged.

    8. Static

      JK47:

      But the defense… It’s not good.I

      Yeah, I’m glad to see someone else has noticed how bad it’s been. I don’t think it’s due to coaching though, the problem is that other than Chandler (who is also having career lows in blocked shots) and Kurt Thomas in his rare minutes, there is no player who is very good defensively. I think there’s effort, but none of them are very good at it.

    9. d-mar

      One thing I notice about this team defensively is how rarely they draw charges. Maybe we were spoiled by Jeffries, who seemed to get 2 every game, but someone needs to be stepping into the lane when opposing guards get into the paint. Tyson might be tentative because they are so thin at the 5, but I would like to see a few guys giving up their body on occasion. Not the biggest issue we have, just an observation.

      (BTW, I think Cock Jowles’ kids have stolen his laptop.)

    10. Static

      Good point about taking charges.

      Also, I would think JR should be pretty good on D, while the other guards are just to slow, and he does show flashes usually at the ends of games, but overall I dunno what he’s doing…

    11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      2 jung 4 kidz, rude boi

      lok

      wages uf winz

      dey sed TEH KNICKS R CONTENDARS

      n dey r

      but dun be lyke

      YO CARMALO IS THE KEY

      juz cuz they lozt a game r 2 w/o him

      dey beat teh cavs, lakars, n da heat WO him

      WO HIM, DO U READ IT?

      WO HIM

      Im not sayen he sux,

      but lets get real hear

      felten n carmalo r O V E R A T E D

      kidd n chandlar have MADE dis team

      ne1 is n upgraid ovar 2012 tony dougless

    12. Mr.RIGHT

      Too ALL you Lin haters and Fat-Ray lovers
      (and yes by the way I do understand the Knicks after Rockers ridiculous offer couldn’t sign Lin …but Felton? cmon man)

      This is for you via most respected ny tabloid – nypost

      ————————————————————-
      As Lin went for 22 points and eight assists, Felton sputtered to a 7-of-18 shooting night — 0-for-4 from 3-point range — with three turnovers and four assists.

      Felton had trouble keeping Lin in front of him.

      “When he gets it to his right hand, he’s good at exploding,’’ Felton said.

      ->
      http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/felton_caught_off_guard_bpPYGLZcZ3UIgSAy5yh44H?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=Knicks

    13. Zanzibar

      Let the Horrabble Coca Bowels present condition be a lesson to all you kids out there: A steady diet of poisonous Berris may be hazardous to your mental health.

    14. johnno

      I sure hope tomorrow night’s game is entertaining because, in the last two days, I spent 2-1/2 hours watching the first three quarters of the Giants game, 2 hours watching the first three quarters of the Knicks game and another 1-1/2 hours watching the second half of the Jets game. Does anyone know where I can go to get those 7 hours of my life back? Excuse me while I go puke…

    15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Zanzibar:
      Let the Horrabble Coca Bowels present condition be a lesson to all you kids out there: A steady diet of poisonous Berris may be hazardous to your mental health.

      lol u’r hilaruous, seriusley gud

      soon teh cocketh cjowles will spek only un spredsheet

    16. Frank

      The defense is really a problem. Maybe it’s because Camby, Rasheed, and Amare are all out, but Tyson is either providing zero resistance at the rim, or giving stupid fouls (like the 2 on Lin last night). He may be doing great things in terms of tap outs and his usual space eating defense on PNR, but he is NOT protecting the rim like a DPOY should.

      THCJ – did you actually say at some point that you actually teach students in some sort of real subject in your real (hopefully far less annoying and insufferable) life? That is hard to believe.

    17. d-mar

      I really hope the Knicks aren’t soft pedaling this Melo injury. It’s gone from him wanting to play Sat. night to his telling the media that he ran for the first time today and that the ankle is still really sore. After last year’s Lin debacle, I’m skeptical about any injury reports coming from the Knicks front office.

    18. flossy

      d-mar:
      I really hope the Knicks aren’t soft pedaling this Melo injury. It’s gone from him wanting to play Sat. night to his telling the media that he ran for the first time today and that the ankle is still really sore. After last year’s Lin debacle, I’m skeptical about any injury reports coming from the Knicks front office.

      The Knicks would never understate the seriousness of their star’s injury right before a homestand…

    19. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: THCJ – did you actually say at some point that you actually teach students in some sort of real subject in your real (hopefully far less annoying and insufferable) life? That is hard to believe.

      Really, why are you mad? I come on this site and talk about my opinions and I get shit on for using a statistic that clashes with the eyetest. What does that have to do with my professional life? Do you see me coming on here, hoping that you are not so much of an insufferable, pig-headed, stubborn shitbag as you are on this website?

      Those same people who shit on that statistic for using the box score (and assigning weight to certain factors) use other statistics, like PER and WS48, that do the same thing, but with outcomes that 1) don’t correlate well with wins and 2) seem to mesh better with their interpretations of who the best players are. Who’s right? I don’t know. You can defer to ruruland and Juany8 and the perpetually insightful jon abbey, but I choose not to. If you have a problem with it, you can email Mike K. and tell him how upset you are with my writing style or my ideas about basketball or how I just don’t play by the rules of civility and decency.

    20. jon abbey

      Frank:
      The defense is really a problem. Maybe it’s because Camby, Rasheed, and Amare are all out, but Tyson is either providing zero resistance at the rim, or giving stupid fouls (like the 2 on Lin last night).He may be doing great things in terms of tap outs and his usual space eating defense on PNR, but he is NOT protecting the rim like a DPOY should.

      his defense all year has been really up and down, which again I don’t have a big problem with as I think he’s too old to play 100 or so games at max intensity.

      but I do wish all the Chandler fan-boys would notice when he plays a shitty defensive game and not just assume he is always great back there, because he isn’t.

    21. BigBlueAL

      d-mar:
      I really hope the Knicks aren’t soft pedaling this Melo injury. It’s gone from him wanting to play Sat. night to his telling the media that he ran for the first time today and that the ankle is still really sore. After last year’s Lin debacle, I’m skeptical about any injury reports coming from the Knicks front office.

      Considering the type of fall he had which resulted in his sprained ankle/bruise I wouldnt be surprised if its a 2-3 week injury. That was a pretty gruesome looking fall.

    22. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      jon abbey: thanks, man, happy to keep teaching you as long as you stick around. the first step is to realize how little you know, I hope you get there someday.

      Remember last night when Felton missed that layup and Chandler slammed it home?

      I bet you stood up, yelled “WHAT A PASS!” to yourself, and said, “THAT’S GOTTA BE AN ASSIST IN THE STATS SHEET. MAN, COCK JOWLES IS SO STOOPIT.”

    23. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      2 jung 4 kidz, rude boi

      lok

      wages uf winz

      dey sed TEH KNICKS R CONTENDARS

      n dey r

      but dun be lyke

      YO CARMALO IS THE KEY

      juz cuz they lozt a game r 2 w/o him

      dey beat teh cavs, lakars, n da heat WO him

      WO HIM, DO U READ IT?

      WO HIM

      Im not sayen he sux,

      but lets get real hear

      felten n carmalo r O V E R A T E D

      kidd n chandlar have MADE dis team

      ne1 is n upgraid ovar 2012 tony dougless

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: wut

      art though mad?

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: lol u’r hilaruous, seriusley gud

      soon teh cocketh cjowles will spek only un spredsheet

      I just literally can’t believe someone who is responsible for educating actual students would ever write these posts. That’s all. You’re remarkably insufferable and annoying here, and I actually gave you the benefit of doubt about your offline character by saying that you were hopefully less insufferable and annoying in real life (mostly because you’d get punched in the face repeatedly if you weren’t).

      Speaking of the Mike K’s banhammer, it is amazing that our ol’ friend Italian Stallion was banned for the crime of posting the same thing over and over again (in actual English and without disrespect), when you routinely badger, insult, and cuss at people here with impunity.

      The sad thing is that when you’re not going waaaay out of your way to be annoying, you actually have reasonable things to say. I don’t agree with all things Berri says, but some things are at least thought -provoking if not spot-on. But this all gets lost in this weirdo…

    24. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      2 jung 4 kidz, rude boi

      lok

      wages uf winz

      dey sed TEH KNICKS R CONTENDARS

      n dey r

      but dun be lyke

      YO CARMALO IS THE KEY

      juz cuz they lozt a game r 2 w/o him

      dey beat teh cavs, lakars, n da heat WO him

      WO HIM, DO U READ IT?

      WO HIM

      They beat the Lakers without him??? Do you really not even bother to watch the games? Because in the game I watched Melo staked them to a big lead which the Knicks almost gave back before hanging on for the win. They’re 2-2 without Melo, 3-1 without Kidd (the only loss being in overtime on the road against a decent team). Kidd has been great playing off of the Felton/Chandler pnr and Melo but he can’t do a ton on his own anymore. In the 4 games without Melo he’s averaging 7.75 ppg on a robust .476 TS%. Chandler’s been terrific, as for the other WoW all-stars- Camby hasn’t played and they’ve gotten little from Brewer besides low turnovers. They’ve been great on offense because Melo has been really good and the Chandler/Felton pnr has been arguably the best play in basketball. And before you say that’s all Chandler did you see my earlier post about how much better Chandler’s been as a roll man this year? 1.44 ppp this year vs. 1.18 ppp and with turnovers dropping from 11.2 to just 3.5. That’s lightyears better and unless Chandler grew a new pair of hands over the summer, Felton has had a lot to do with it. Of course, those numbers don’t fit your narrative (and you’re every bit as narrative driven as anyone who posts here- ruruland included) you’ll probably just ignore them.

    25. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: I just literally can’t believe someone who is responsible for educating actual students would ever write these posts. That’s all.

      You literally can’t believe that a person has the ability to shift between discourse communities as he sees fit? You literally can’t believe that the tone that a person would take with his colleagues might be different from the tone he takes with a guy who would give Carmelo Anthony a foot massage were he given the opportunity? Or a guy who would go to a workshop at the University of Chicago School of Economics and tell them that their field is a pseudoscientist (“Trust me. I’m an engineer.”)? Or a guy who thinks that a missed shot (I mean, jesus fucking christ) should sometimes be credited as a made shot?

      You’re right.

      ruruland is an expert. I trust his subjective assessments of player value.

      Juany8 is an engineer. I trust his dismissal of economics as a discipline.

      jon abbey is not a blithering fuckwit, but only a drooling man-tub of hairgel. I indeed trust his ability to clothe himself.

      Is that better?

    26. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      nicos: And before you say that’s all Chandler did you see my earlier post about how much better Chandler’s been as a roll man this year? 1.44 ppp this year vs. 1.18 ppp and with turnovers dropping from 11.2 to just 3.5

      So Felton’s making him a better PnR player. What about his offensive game has dropped off, then? His PPS is almost exactly the same as it was last year. And when we determine what Chandler is worse at, this year, who will we attribute that interaction effect to?

    27. Z

      I saw on Yahoo that Lin returned to the Garden last night. I figured I’d come over and see what folks were saying about it. I guess I should have guessed that they’d be saying THCJ is “insufferable”, and in return he’d be calling jon abbey a “blithering fuckwit”. Wouldn’t be a Knicks game without it!

      (…and nice start, by the way. Better than I would have expected, though I haven’t watched a minute of NBA action this season, so I have no idea how they are doing it. Sustainable? Symptom of a weak conference? Felton getting it done? Copeland the real deal?… Is Dolan still the owner??)

      (oh, and one last thing– wasn’t JK47 leaving Knick Nation at the same time as me to join the Lakers?? What happened to that?)

    28. Juany8

      The Honorable Cock Jowles:

      You’re right.

      ruruland is an expert. I trust his subjective assessments of player value.

      Juany8 is an engineer. I trust his dismissal of economics as a discipline.

      jon abbey is not a blithering fuckwit, but only a drooling man-tub of hairgel. I indeed trust his ability to clothe himself.

      Is that better?

      If you can’t understand the difference between physics and economics, then I guess I guess I can see why you think calling someone a “blithering fuckwit” could be considered discourse anywhere. I still don’t get why that has anything to do with basketball, but I actually try to stick to the points being made instead of throwing out ridiculous straw men arguments that every single intelligent human being on earth can see are ridiculous.

      That’s the beauty of a good idea, nobody else here cares that I’m an engineer because they’re simply discussing the points I make instead of trying to prove I’m fundamentally an idiot. That’s the problem really, for some reason you’ve deluded yourself into believing that Berri’s formula gives you some kind of intellectual authority when discussing basketball, and so anyone who disagrees with ANY player ranking WP throws out gets called an idiot. That’s not a real argument, you’re welcome to point to a player’s WP when debating a player’s quality, but you can’t expect other people to simply take you at your word unless you provide compelling arguments for your perspective.

      So far your most compelling argument against me is that I must not know what I’m talking about because I believe thermodynamics and economics are not particularly comparable. Otherwise it’s been “trust me, I used statistics, and you’re an idiot for not doing the same”. I wonder why nobody here agrees with you.

    29. Frank

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: You literally can’t believe that a person has the ability to shift between discourse communities as he sees fit?

      You’re not shifting between discourse communities. You’re trolling by being insulting. There’s a big difference.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: ruruland is an expert. I trust his subjective assessments of player value.

      I’m pretty sure this year is not the year to be ripping on Ruru. He has basically called everything correctly this year, from Kidd’s impact, to Melo’s increased efficiency, to the Knicks better-than-anyone-expected record. What’s more is that he told us why it would happen the way it has happened.

      And what about Berri should I trust again? His completely arbitrary positional adjustments? His insistence that Troy Murphy was a top 20 player in the league in his “prime”? His belief that Landry Fields was one of the best rookies in NBA history? Or that Carmelo Anthony, indisputably having the best season of his career, averaging 28.2 p/36, TS 59.2%, on a usage% of 34 and a minuscule TO% of 10.1, and who is a net + 9.2/100poss is somehow producing fewer wins per 48 (0.085) than Jamaal Tinsley, Reggie Williams, Luke Babbitt, and Jason Maxiell?

      The problem is – no one here thinks they have a monopoly on the truth except for you. And it is just so obvious that you’re just not right on many many many things. And then you troll us. It’s just ridiculous.

    30. nicos

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: So Felton’s making him a better PnR player. What about his offensive game has dropped off, then? His PPS is almost exactly the same as it was last year. And when we determine what Chandler is worse at, this year, who will we attribute that interaction effect to?

      PPP is a better stat than PPS in this case- if Chandler turns it over on the pnr twice and dunks twice his PPS is 2 but his PPP is a more accurate 1. You’re cherry picking stats- He only shoots at the rim so of course his pps will stay flat- because it fits your narrative. To what do you attribute the huge drop in turnovers- from 11.2 to 3.5 in the pnr and 17.1 to 11.3 overall? Again 1.44 ppp as a roll man vs. 1.18- he’s been much better in the pnr this year, period.

    31. Frank

      Hmm. what happened to this super-reasonable, almost soothing THCJ from 2010 from bothteamsplayedhard (amazing what Google will drudge up):

      “The Honorable Cock Jowles 03.23.10 at 10:38 pm
      Cam,
      True shooting percentage takes into consideration the overall efficiency of a player’s scoring; that said, shooting 50% on 2pt shots is not terribly efficient if there is no complementary (and efficient) 3pt shooting, or a high volume of FT/FGA. As a Knicks fan, I would gladly take the explosive young man as my starting PG, but he’s not terribly efficient (a la S. Nash/C. Billups), nor a well-rounded stud (a la J. Kidd/ C. Paul).
      Also, even if his play has improved since the all-star break, it’s not as if those few days off (which, of course, were not exactly that) provide any kind of measurable median by which one can separate data sets. It’s an arbitrary sample, and thus, does not tell us much of anything. If Derrick Rose had acquired $6 million dollar bionic heel-springs, you could likely make an argument that the sample is meaningful. But since he has not, I’d advise against it.”

      Do you have an alter ego? Or are you writing under someone else’s original handle? Or just angrier?

    32. massive

      I tend to agree with THCJ more times than not. I think the reason THCJ has almost lost his mind is people can be extremely hypocritical on this website without even noticing. People say WP/48 is a shit stat and then use PER (the shittiest of all stats ever) and WS/48 (a statistic that does not correlate with wins as well as WP/48) as a statistic without much other reason than “it seems to make more sense.” I understand that THCJ’s dogma can be tiring and infuriating, but when you dismiss statistics altogether and then use the ones that fit your narrative is completely hypocritical. And WP/48 has Melo at a .155 when you adjust the numbers for a SF (I don’t believe Carmelo Anthony really plays a traditional PF role and is still more of a 3 than a 4).

      I remember earlier this week somebody said Hollinger had to be persistent in his usage of statistics in order for people to take them seriously and for the field to take more prominence. Do you not believe that there were people who believed he knew very little about basketball the same way Abbey feels about THCJ? Now he’s the VP of Basketball Operations of the Memphis Grizzlies.

      I believe there is a common ground that nobody is willing to reach. Statistics are the “what happened,” and informed-observation is the “why things happened.” Juany8′s “eye-test” is a lot more reliable than that of say Skip Bayless or Stephen A. Smith. But for now, it’s fun to argue whether the tandem of Kidd/Chandler or Felton/Melo is most important in the success of the New York Knicks. My opinion? Neither group can win a championship without the other.

    33. Juany8

      Very good post massive, part of the problem with coming to a consensus is that each side is trying to prove their way is right rather than coming together to try to learn from one another in search of deeper truth. I admit I myself am guilty of this at times, it annoys me when people bring up numbers without more context and sometimes I attack perfectly reasonable positions because of it. No idea should be dismissed without thoroughly examining the logic behind it, but at the same time no number can stand on it’s own as a full idea. I disagree with the very subjective and arbitrary way Berri does his positional adjustments, it seems to me like it would make more sense to adjust the stats for actual role instead of arbitrary position. Matt Bonner is a big and Kyle Korver is a guard, but it makes more sense to compare their offensive numbers together than it makes sense to compare Kobe and Korver as having the same basketball fit because they’re both shooting guards.

      I also think that you’re right, an ideal team will have a mix of talents, and Felton-Kidd-Melo-Chandler is a very nice fitting core. Felton’s chuckery would be a terrible fit with a team packed with shot creators, Kidd is no longer quick enough to be a true point on either end, Melo isn’t a good rebounder or defender at the 4, and Chandler can’t get shots off (regardless of their efficiency) without some help. Their strengths complement each other’s game while their weaknesses are masked.

    34. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Juany8: numbers without more context

      If a person is convinced that Harden is not the basketball god that he was last season, they’ll interpret his monster game last night as it having more to do with Chandler’s inability to defend the rim rather than Harden’s basketball skill.

      Or that Lin sucks, and we should come up with an explanation that doesn’t involve Lin when he doesn’t suck.

      Carmelo Anthony makes his teammates better, but when he has shitty teammates, they make him worse and he can’t make them better.

      Kenneth Faried can’t create his own shot, except when he gets offensive rebounds and scores points on putbacks. This, however, is not shot creation.

      The stats are right about Durant, LeBron, and Paul, but wrong about Deron Williams, Kemba Walker, and Ryan Anderson. Why? The eyetest.

      I’m reminded of the first paragraph of my favorite Bellow novel, Mr. Sammler’s Planet:

      “You had to be a crank to insist on being right. Being right was largely a matter of explanations. Intellectual man had become an explaining creature. Fathers to children, wives to husbands, lecturers to listeners, experts to laymen, colleagues to colleagues, doctors to patients, man to his own soul, explained. The roots of this, the causes of the other, the source of events, the history, the structure, the reasons why. For the most part, in one ear out the other. The soul wanted what it wanted. It had its own natural knowledge. It sat unhappily on superstructures of explanation, poor bird, not knowing which way to fly.”

    35. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frank: Do you have an alter ego? Or are you writing under someone else’s original handle? Or just angrier?

      ruruland happened.

    36. DRed

      Frank:

      And what about Berri should I trust again? His completely arbitrary positional adjustments?

      What’s arbitrary about positional adjustments in Berri’s model? He compares players to the average player at their position. There are a host of baseball stats that do the same thing and as far as I know it’s not controversial at all. If every center in the NBA but Tyson Chancler was as productive as Enes Kanter, it wouldn’t make Tyson more skilled at basketball than he is now, but it would certainly make him much more valuable to the Knicks, because we’d be the only team in the NBA with a good center, and that would be a tremendous competitive advantage.

    37. nicos

      DRed: What’s arbitrary about positional adjustments in Berri’s model?He compares players to the average player at their position.There are a host of baseball stats that do the same thing and as far as I know it’s not controversial at all.If every center in the NBA but Tyson Chancler was as productive as Enes Kanter, it wouldn’t make Tyson more skilled at basketball than he is now, but it would certainly make him much more valuable to the Knicks, because we’d be the only team in the NBA with a good center, and that would be a tremendous competitive advantage.

      As Juany8 pointed out above, a lot of guys, while playing the same position, play completely different roles on the court. How can you compare LaMarcus Aldridge and Reggie Evans when they are asked to do completely different things on offense. Steve Novak is nominally a forward but is used more like a shooting guard. Even THCJ admitted that Fields should probably have been rated as a forward rather than as a shooting guard. In Baseball, first basemen play first base, left fielders play left field and everyone is pretty much equal at the plate- definitely not the case in basketball.

    38. DRed

      nicos: As Juany8 pointed out above, a lot of guys, while playing the same position, play completely different roles on the court.How can you compare LaMarcus Aldridge and Reggie Evans when they are asked to do completely different things on offense.Steve Novak is nominally a forward but is used more like a shooting guard.Even THCJ admitted that Fields should probably have been rated as a forward rather than as a shooting guard.In Baseball, first basemen play first base, left fielders play left field and everyone is pretty much equal at the plate- definitely not the case in basketball.

      There are always exceptions. I’m pretty sure that Dave Berri would agree that you have to look beyond his stats to make decisions about a player. He certainly wouldn’t say that wins produced tells you all you need to know about a basketball player-the argument is that it’s a better starting point than other systems like PER or Adjusted +/- In general, most power forwards fulfill a similar role, but that doesn’t mean they all do. Say there was a team that, for whatever reason, only had their power forward try for offensive rebounds and sent the other 4 players on their team back on defense the second a shot was launched. That forward would probably get more offensive rebounds than he would if he was on a team that crashed the boards with every player after a shot. So, he’d be overvalued in a sense, because on a different team he’d be less productive. That’s valuable information, but it doesn’t invalidate the entire model.

    39. nicos

      DRed: There are always exceptions.I’m pretty sure that Dave Berri would agree that you have to look beyond his stats to make decisions about a player.He certainly wouldn’t say that wins produced tells you all you need to know about a basketball player-the argument is that it’s a better starting point than other systems like PER or Adjusted +/-In general, most power forwards fulfill a similar role, but that doesn’t mean they all do.Say there was a team that, for whatever reason, only had their power forward try for offensive rebounds and sent the other 4 players on their team back on defense the second a shot was launched.That forward would probably get more offensive rebounds than he would if he was on a team that crashed the boards with every player after a shot.So, he’d be overvalued in a sense, because on a different team he’d be less productive.That’s valuable information, but it doesn’t invalidate the entire model.

      I think WoW is fine as a starting point if you just accept that it rewards low usage, limited role guys the same way PER rewards volume shooters. I will say that guys like Reggie Evans were seriously undervalued pre-Berri and that WoW has been an important corrective. That said, it’s still a catch-all stat- and like any catch-all stat throws out plenty of outliers- and there are people on this site who argue as if it’s infallible.

    40. daJudge

      CJ….Can you explain the Bellow quote for me in the context of this debate? Do you think Bellow is advocating that the so-called intellect should be abstracted from basic observation to yield truth? I think therefore I am sort of thing. Not being a wise guy, btw, just curious.

    41. JK47

      (oh, and one last thing– wasn’t JK47 leaving Knick Nation at the same time as me to join the Lakers?? What happened to that?)

      Hey Z.

      As it turned out, I missed this blog more than I missed the Knicks. Forum Purple And Gold or whatever it’s called just wasn’t cutting it. Then Nash got hurt about 3 minutes into his Laker career and the Knicks blew out the Heat, and I was just like, “Who am I kidding?”

    42. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      DRed: There are always exceptions.I’m pretty sure that Dave Berri would agree that you have to look beyond his stats to make decisions about a player.He certainly wouldn’t say that wins produced tells you all you need to know about a basketball player-the argument is that it’s a better starting point than other systems like PER or Adjusted +/-In general, most power forwards fulfill a similar role, but that doesn’t mean they all do.Say there was a team that, for whatever reason, only had their power forward try for offensive rebounds and sent the other 4 players on their team back on defense the second a shot was launched.That forward would probably get more offensive rebounds than he would if he was on a team that crashed the boards with every player after a shot.So, he’d be overvalued in a sense, because on a different team he’d be less productive.That’s valuable information, but it doesn’t invalidate the entire model.

      I’ve seen posts on Wages of Wins that say, “WP48 tells us how productive a player is; it does not tell us why.” And I think that’s important to note.

      If you want to say that Carmelo Anthony is a “great” player, you have to throw out his actual productivity and assume that there’s something that he brings to the table that the box score is totally and completely inadequate at representing. If you say that he has the potential to be a great player, that’s a completely different claim. Is he a talented basketball player? Yes. Has he been a productive player? Not according to WP48 or WS48. Is there a situation in which he could be more productive? Yes. Does that mean it’s likely that he will achieve and sustain that maximized productivity? I doubt it.

    43. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      daJudge:
      CJ….Can you explain the Bellow quote for me in the context of this debate?Do you think Bellow is advocating that the so-called intellect should be abstracted from basic observation to yield truth?I think therefore I am sort of thing.Not being a wise guy, btw, just curious.

      No. Bellow’s talking more about the soul’s hunger for capital-T truth whereas the only whiff we get is through discourse: men explaining to other men why their versions of truth are valid. So our souls sit upon superstructures of meaning — whether that be achieved through linear metrics, subjective evaluation, gut feeling, etc. — not knowing which to give credence to, or whether to give credence to any at all. We desire to know, but we sense, rightfully, that our capacity to understand is limited by our ability to explain.

      And that struggle is why I post on this board. Not out of love for a Dolan-owned corporate logo or a combination of colors on a uniform, but because we sense that there is truth in basketball — one team wins and the other loses — and that that truth is maybe one that can be held.

    44. ruruland

      I’ve never understood why so many people pay attention to THCJ in the first place. Well, perhaps I’m as guilty as anyone else.

      When’s the last time this person offered cogent rebuttals in any debate we’ve had about the nature of basketball statistics or anything else? This is someone who consistently trolls this board with Berri boilerplate, retorts with nothing but ad-hominems, and then goes right back into hiding.

      There is nothing to respect about Jowles’ intellect. He tries to pass himself off as some churlish erudite above the dialogue. But then he continues to involve himself in this apparent false dialectic in the crudest, most base manner possible — all a disguise.

      The truth is that Jowles really doesn’t know what he’s talking about. People should recognize that by now. How many times does he fail to provide any depth to his assertions when he is directly addressed? Is 100 percent of the time too low?

      His recent meltdown is just more evidence that he’s not really capable of participating in smart, rational discussion. He’s much more of a proselytizing zealot than the enlightened academic, as he presents himself. This is someone, like any religious nut, who throws a temper-tantrum when his scripture, the hackneyed aphorisms that make-up his “positions” are impeded with logic, a person sucked into dogma because of a lack of critical thinking skills, and stuck in that same dogma because of a lack of critical thinking skills.

      I definitely don’t have all the answers. And there are plenty of experts more knowledgeable than me. But I don’t tried to hide behind a false persona or from debate, and I’m not afraid of being proven wrong. I do think about things and study them the best I can, learn as much as I can and be as open-minded as possible.

      I think there are plenty of valid arguments made by the WoW community and Berri supporters. In fact, most of us have acknowledged the arguments that Jowles parrots have some level of…

    45. mokers

      I don’t think you can compare positional adjustments with baseball and basketball. Not only do you have the problem of different uses for people who are listed at the same position, but every baseball stat starts with a pitcher throwing to a batter. Three of the most important baseball statistics for determining success (walk, strikeout, homerun) don’t require the involvement of any fielders. If every shot from every player on every team occurred while the power forward was at the same position, then maybe you could do the positional adjustments.

      In basketball, to be able to determine objectively rebounding skill, you would have to probably account for the distance the rebound trabeled from the basket, the distance the person traveled for the rebound, and then adjust for the rebounding ability of the people on the floor and the distance that person was from when the ball came off the basket. SportVu is probably going to give us a lot of this type of data and will give us better insight into what makes a quality rebounder. That’s not to say we don’t have some tools to give us that data, but the inputs we are working with just aren’t detailed enough to give the type of quality some are seeking.

      I think it is fair to say that WP is another great way to look at the inputs we currently have and in many ways is much better than what many were using previously, but it still has lots of flaws and until we are sophisticated enough to get all the data necessary it has to be treated as such.

      As for THCJ, I think he is a good voice, but likes to push buttons and troll a lot (his choice of course). He has a good quality signal, but the signal to noise ratio he displays probably skews what a lot of people think. It would be interesting if he (or another berri fan) put in as much research and detail into his work as ruru as I think those would be excellent discussions.

    46. ruruland

      < We desire to know, but we sense, rightfully, that our capacity to understand is limited by our ability to explain.

      And that struggle is why I post on this board. Not out of love for a Dolan-owned corporate logo or a combination of colors on a uniform, but because we sense that there is truth in basketball — one team wins and the other loses — and that that truth is maybe one that can be held.

      You’re inability to explain, your lack of capacity, is why you troll this board and spend zero time actually trying to debate your positions.

    47. ruruland

      That’s meant to read, your inability to explain is the result of your lack of capacity to understand.

    48. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      ruruland: You’re inability to explain, your lack of capacity, is why you troll this board and spend zero time actually trying to debate your positions.

      Oh fuck right off with that twaddle.

    49. ruruland

      Nice point, mokers. We all can cite quite a few examples of statistically great rebounders whose teams were better rebounding either the year after that person was traded/let go and inferior individual rebounders brought in, or when that great rebounder was on the bench and his 1-1 inferior rebounding teammates in the game.

      for example, the Denver Nuggets were a better rebounding team in 2008-2009 with Chris Andersen, a comparatively much weaker rebounder than Camby, than they were the year with Camby.

      Just one example destroys the entire model, interpreted in axioms by people like Jowles.

      There is a lot that goes into rebounding. One can help his team rebounding by blocking out his opponent and letting teammates snare rebounds, more than a player who grabs 90 percent of 50-50 rebounds from teammates and fails to block his man out.

      this same idea applies throughout the game of basketball.

      Players don’t use possessions, they take opportunities. Opportunities are created by teammates ad myriad factors.

    50. DRed

      ruruland:
      Nice point, mokers. We all can cite quite a few examples of statistically great rebounders whose teams were better rebounding either the year after that person was traded/let go and inferior individual rebounders brought in, or when that great rebounder was on the bench and his 1-1 inferior rebounding teammates in the game.

      for example, the Denver Nuggets were a better rebounding team in 2008-2009 with Chris Andersen, a comparatively much weaker rebounder than Camby, than they were the year with Camby.

      Just one example destroys the entire model, interpreted in axioms by people like Jowles.

      There is a lot that goes into rebounding. One can help his team rebounding by blocking out his opponent and letting teammates snarerebounds, more than a player who grabs 90 percent of 50-50 rebounds from teammates and fails to block his man out.

      this same idea applies throughout the game of basketball.

      Players don’t use possessions, they take opportunities. Opportunities are created by teammates ad myriad factors.

      Just one example doesn’t come close to destroying an entire model. That’s ridiculous.

    51. ruruland

      DRed: Just one example doesn’t come close to destroying an entire model.That’s ridiculous.

      It suggests that the individual is ALWAYS solely responsible for every rebound he collects and doesn’t collect when that is demonstrably false every NBA game.

      If it is possible to be a great statistical rebounder, but help your team rebound less than an inferior statistical rebounder, than the underlying assumptions for which the model is based are inherently wrong.

      In most cases, it’s probably a decent approximation. But the people we are dealing with believe it is always a perfect representation of contribution to the team.

    52. DRed

      ruruland: It suggests that the individual is ALWAYS solely responsible for every rebound he collects and doesn’t collect when that is demonstrably false every NBA game.

      You beat the stuffing out of that strawman, but that’s not what anyone is saying. Berri is saying that in general rebound rates are consistent, and generally getting players on your team who get more rebounds will increase your team’s ability to rebound. Showing that one team increased it’s team’s rebounding one year after replacing a superior rebounder with an inferior is an almost irrelevant piece of data when you’re trying to rebut a study that consists of thousands of players over many years. Rebounding is fairly consistent year to year, but it’s not perfectly consistent. Maybe the rest of the nuggest had bad years with Camby, maybe they changed some other players, or maybe there was some interaction effect that we don’t know about. Just saying that the team got more rebounds when they had Anderson than they did with Camby doesn’t tell us anything about players in general-it tells us the Nuggets had more rebounds with Anderson than they did with Camby.

    53. ruruland

      DRed: You beat the stuffing out of that strawman, but that’s not what anyone is saying.Berri is saying that in general rebound rates are consistent, and generally getting players on your team who get more rebounds will increase your team’s ability to rebound.Showing that one team increased it’s team’s rebounding one year after replacing a superior rebounder with an inferior is an almost irrelevant piece of data when you’re trying to rebut a study that consists of thousands of players over many years.Rebounding is fairly consistent year to year, but it’s not perfectly consistent.Maybe the rest of the nuggest had bad years with Camby, maybe they changed some other players, or maybe there was some interaction effect that we don’t know about.Just saying that the team got more rebounds when they had Anderson than they did with Camby doesn’t tell us anything about players in general-it tells us the Nuggets had more rebounds with Anderson than they did with Camby.

      I’ll get to this when I’m done covering the game I’m at.

    54. Owen

      Wow, crusher for the Nets. Reggie Evans posted a +7 but absolutely bricked a last second shot after collecting an offensive rebound.

      Enjoyable thread.

      If i have to choose between THCJ and Ruruland it’s an easy choice. One guy is interested in discussing the ever evolving world of basketball statistics. He may not be right about everything, or have the best tone, but this is Knickerblogger – we talk about statistics.

      The other guy arrived in New York from an outer galaxy to be Carmelo Anthony’s personal representative on the board first and a Knicks fan a distant distant second.

      Which is fine, I guess. But a little strange.

      All i know is that I still don’t enjoy the way Carmelo plays basketball, unless he is shooting 45% from three. The guy is the antithesis of what Knicks basketball has been in its two greatest eras. He doesn’t share the ball and he doesn’t play defense.

      I hope he can make me a believer but anyone making assumptions about his future play based off his 20 game sample to start the year should prepare themselves for disappointment.

      Whenever people say this time is different, it almost always isn’t.

    55. d-mar

      Owen:
      Wow, crusher for the Nets. Reggie Evans posted a +7 but absolutely bricked a last second shot after collecting an offensive rebound.

      So the Nets have now lost home games to Minnesota, Golden State, Milwaukee and Utah and barely squeaked by the Pistons in Brooklyn. Their record is now a scintillating 13-11. I just don’t get the hype about this team.

    56. jon abbey

      d-mar: So the Nets have now lost home games to Minnesota, Golden State, Milwaukee and Utah and barely squeaked by the Pistons in Brooklyn. Their record is now a scintillating 13-11. I just don’t get the hype about this team.

      let’s wait to talk shit about them until after tomorrow’s game, thanks.

      love to see Boston struggling like this, would be incredible if they somehow missed the playoffs entirely.

    57. Z-man

      Z: I saw on Yahoo that Lin returned to the Garden last night. I figured I’d come over and see what folks were saying about it. I guess I should have guessed that they’d be saying THCJ is “insufferable”, and in return he’d be calling jon abbey a “blithering fuckwit”. Wouldn’t be a Knicks game without it!(…and nice start, by the way. Better than I would have expected, though I haven’t watched a minute of NBA action this season, so I have no idea how they are doing it. Sustainable? Symptom of a weak conference? Felton getting it done? Copeland the real deal?… Is Dolan still the owner??)(oh, and one last thing– wasn’t JK47 leaving Knick Nation at the same time as me to join the Lakers?? What happened to that?)

      Yo, get the fuck out, man. It’s been great not being confused with you for a couple of months.

      Seriously, I always enjoyed your posts, but all of your talk about the Lin nonsigning being the last Dolan straw for you definitely bugged me. Now that we’re 18-6 and the talk of the NBA, while Melo is a legit MVP candidate, now that Lin is putting up very Felton-like stats in Houston, while Felton is doing everything that Lin does at 1/3 the price, do you still feel as strongly about that last straw thing? Of the 24 games so far, more than half have been convincing wins, a few squeaker went both ways, a couple of ugly wins and maybe 3 ugly losses (two to Houston, Lin played very well last night but meh in the first meeting in HOU.) Grunwald has really done a good job with the roster, and Woody has picked up right where he left off with another 18-6 run. So, fellow Zeddite, why not just admit you overreacted and come back to the fold?

    58. ruruland

      Owen:
      Wow, crusher for the Nets. Reggie Evans posted a +7 but absolutely bricked a last second shot after collecting an offensive rebound.

      Enjoyable thread.

      If i have to choose between THCJ and Ruruland it’s an easy choice. One guy is interested in discussing the ever evolving world of basketball statistics. He may not be right about everything, or have the best tone, but this is Knickerblogger – we talk about statistics.

      The other guy arrived in New York from an outer galaxyto be Carmelo Anthony’s personal representative on the board first and a Knicks fan a distant distant second.

      Which is fine, I guess. But a little strange.

      All i know is that I still don’t enjoy the way Carmelo plays basketball, unless he is shooting 45% from three. The guy is the antithesis of what Knicks basketball has been in its two greatest eras. He doesn’t share the ball and he doesn’t play defense.

      I hope he can make me a believer but anyone making assumptions about his future play based off his 20 game sample to start the year should prepare themselves for disappointment.

      Whenever people say this time is different, it almost always isn’t.

      You think I’m going to fall for this? We both know how it’ll end.

    59. Z-man

      Owen: Wow, crusher for the Nets. Reggie Evans posted a +7 but absolutely bricked a last second shot after collecting an offensive rebound. Enjoyable thread. If i have to choose between THCJ and Ruruland it’s an easy choice. One guy is interested in discussing the ever evolving world of basketball statistics. He may not be right about everything, or have the best tone, but this is Knickerblogger – we talk about statistics.The other guy arrived in New York from an outer galaxy to be Carmelo Anthony’s personal representative on the board first and a Knicks fan a distant distant second. Which is fine, I guess. But a little strange. All i know is that I still don’t enjoy the way Carmelo plays basketball, unless he is shooting 45% from three. The guy is the antithesis of what Knicks basketball has been in its two greatest eras. He doesn’t share the ball and he doesn’t play defense. I hope he can make me a believer but anyone making assumptions about his future play based off his 20 game sample to start the year should prepare themselves for disappointment. Whenever people say this time is different, it almost always isn’t.

      Sorry, Owen, you are wrong about a number of things here:

      First, the ad mominem attack on ruru is weak, and he uses stats from synergy all the time. Second, thus far, his pre-season predictions have been much closer to the current reality than THCJ or any other so-called talker about stats. Third, the “second” of the greatest Knick eras was as much Ewing in the post iso-ball than the current team is Melo-centric. In fact, if Ewing could dribble the ball upcourt, his usage might have approached 40%. Fourth, Melo has played strong defense all year thus far by nearly all accounts.

    60. ruruland

      Z-man: Sorry, Owen, you are wrong about a number of things here:

      First, the ad mominem attack on ruru is weak, and he uses stats from synergy all the time. Second, thus far, his pre-season predictions have been much closer to the current reality than THCJ or any other so-called talker about stats. Third, the “second” of the greatest Knick eras was as much Ewing in the post iso-ball than the current team is Melo-centric. In fact, if Ewing could dribble the ball upcourt, his usage might have approached 40%. Fourth, Melo has played strong defense all year thus far by nearly all accounts.

      Chandler is a greater Knick than Ewing ever was, remember who made that claim (and attempted to back peddle).

    61. DRed

      Z-man: Sorry, Owen, you are wrong about a number of things here:

      First, the ad mominem attack on ruru is weak, and he uses stats from synergy all the time. Second, thus far, his pre-season predictions have been much closer to the current reality than THCJ or any other so-called talker about stats.

      Kudos to ruru for saying the Knicks would win between 53-58 games. Wages of Wins had the Knicks at 55 wins. So ruru essentially predicted the same thing as the statistical model he thinks is useless. And what’s also interesting, is that they both weren’t completely accurate about why the Knicks would be this good. The WoW model thought Camby would be contributing value, and ruru thought Ray Felton would be taking fewer shots and shooting at a much higher TS. Nobody was predicting that Kidd and Melo would be shooting so well from 3. We’ll see what happens as the season goes on.

    62. ruruland

      DRed: Kudos to ruru for saying the Knicks would win between 53-58 games.Wages of Wins had the Knicks at 55 wins.So ruru essentially predicted the same thing as the statistical model he thinks is useless.And what’s also interesting, is that they both weren’t completely accurate about why the Knicks would be this good.The WoW model thought Camby would be contributing value, and ruru thought Ray Felton would be taking fewer shots and shooting at a much higher TS.Nobody was predicting that Kidd and Melo would be shooting so well from 3.We’ll see what happens as the season goes on.

      I’ll get to this, too. You’re off. See search button if you want to know where I’ll go.

    63. Juany8

      I just want to point out that Owen claims to back statistics and baselessly claims that Melo doesn’t defend, and that THCJ talks about intelligent discourse but personally insults everyone on this board who disagrees with him, even though the only thing he accepts as valid proof of basketball productivity is the model most of us find laughable. by the way, Melo is getting a .207 WS for the season so far, has monster on/off stats.

      You can’t claim that me and ruru ignore stats because we don’t use your intellectually pathetic all in one models. You can’t claim that your teammates don’t matter when Kevin Martin and James Harden literally flipped TS% when they switched teams. You can’t claim that you need a positional adjustment because PG’s need to be compared to PG’s when Derrick Fisher and Derrick Rose have exactly nothing alike in offensive role. You can’t say offense is purely the result of an individual and then say defense is purely the work of 5 man units because you don’t have stats to actually make a proper model. Most of all, you can’t use silly ad hominems to attack the people who rationally point out those very glaring flaws.

    64. Juany8

      DRed: Kudos to ruru for saying the Knicks would win between 53-58 games.Wages of Wins had the Knicks at 55 wins.So ruru essentially predicted the same thing as the statistical model he thinks is useless.And what’s also interesting, is that they both weren’t completely accurate about why the Knicks would be this good.The WoW model thought Camby would be contributing value, and ruru thought Ray Felton would be taking fewer shots and shooting at a much higher TS.Nobody was predicting that Kidd and Melo would be shooting so well from 3.We’ll see what happens as the season goes on.

      Ruru said Melo would be better from 3, and that Kidd was an awesome fit. Camby was supposed to be a superstar and a big part of why the Knicks won. Far more interesting is their take on the Thunder. I wonder how the WoW site feels about that now….

      http://wagesofwins.com/2012/10/27/the-thunders-epic-failure/

    65. DRed

      “I predicted 53-58 wins”

      “I plugged in Felton’s efficiency numbers from 2009 and 2010 instead of his career numbers.”

      Felton’s TS in 09-10 52.5%

      This season he’s at 47.5

      Where was I off?

      ruru said Melo would be better from 3. Again, kudos to ruru. So far he’s been dead right. But by better he meant 37-39%. Nobody, and I mean nobody, thought Melo would be shooting 45% from 3 (long may it continue). And that’s because shooting 45% from 3 is fucking ridiculous.

    66. massive

      Juany8:
      I just want to point out that Owen claims to back statistics and baselessly claims that Melo doesn’t defend, and that THCJ talks about intelligent discourse but personally insults everyone on this board who disagrees with him, even though the only thing he accepts as valid proof of basketball productivity is the model most of us find laughable. by the way, Melo is getting a .207 WS for the season so far, has monster on/off stats.

      You can’t claim that me and ruru ignore stats because we don’t use your intellectually pathetic all in one models. You can’t claim that your teammates don’t matter when Kevin Martin and James Harden literally flipped TS% when they switched teams. You can’t claim that you need a positional adjustment because PG’s need to be compared to PG’s when Derrick Fisher and Derrick Rose have exactly nothing alike in offensive role. You can’t say offense is purely the result of an individual and then say defense is purely the work of 5 man units because you don’t have stats to actually make a proper model. Most of all, you can’t use silly ad hominems to attack the people who rationally point out those very glaring flaws.

      Why choose to call WP/48 an intellectually pathetic all-in-one model but choose to place faith in WS/48?

      And WP/48 also likes Carmelo Anthony once you adjust his numbers for a SF (.156 as a SF, .121 as an F). I will keep stating that I do not believe the Knicks have played with a power forward yet this season. They’re going with 3 guards, a small forward, and a center.

    67. massive

      I don’t believe the Knicks are playing power forward because he’s still playing the same way as always except he’s been playing more perimeter basketball this season (not compromising the spacing like he did to get MDA fired). I don’t think it’s fair to label him a power forward because he’s the 2nd tallest guy in the starting 5 when nothing about his game (rebounds, post ups) suggests he’s a power forward. He’s a face-up, isolation 3.

    68. Z

      Z-man: So, fellow Zeddite, why not just admit you overreacted and come back to the fold?

      I’m happy the Knicks are doing well. Their long suffering fans deserve it. I remember you leading the “let Lin go” brigade, and it looks like it’s turned out pretty good for you and the team so far, so nicely done (what I always loved about this blog was that I was surrounded by people a lot smarter than me :)

      And I would admit to overreacting and jump back on the bandwagon, except that I still really don’t want to be on the bandwagon. I’ve enjoyed my time off. And looking at the standings this morning for the 1st time and seeing the Knicks on top did nothing for me (except think of my old friends at KB, of course!).

      So, until I feel that empty void deep inside of me start to grumble and growl, I’ll just leave it to you guys to enjoy the team’s success while I remain in self-imposed exile.

      (I really do miss this blog, though. I’d love to stay and hang out for a while, but I’d have to ask Mike to change the name to just “Blogger”, cause I have nothing to say about the Knickers anymore.)

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: slurp slurp slurp

      (THCJ– it looks like the past few months have taken a toll on your health. Come detox with me in CA! Like me, you’ve been holding onto something here that doesn’t seem to bring you much pleasure. I’ll help you past the shakes and the shivers. When we’re done, Carmelo Anthony, Ray Felton, and Ruruland will be nothing but foggy, dull memories :)

    69. JC Knickfan

      Diminishing law of returns.
      Felton career high FGA = career low TS%.

      I do agree with some bloggers that driving layup pulling in 2nd defender to block the shot will create high % O-rebounds, but some people refuse to acknowledge Felton poor shot choices. He shoots long 2′s way too much to be efficient.

      Even with Melo back, I think I would like to see Copeland start (Brewer sit) and take away some of Felton FGA. Copeland was 42-91 3′s in one stint in D-league, but that was back in 2007. He is 6-13 this year, but sample size too small. The jury is still out if he can be another deep threat. He’s not know for defense hopefully Woodson can instill defensive discipline.

    70. yellowboy90

      JC Knickfan:
      Diminishing law of returns.
      Felton career high FGA = career low TS%.

      I do agree with some bloggers that driving layup pulling in 2nd defender to block the shot will create high % O-rebounds, but some people refuse to acknowledge Felton poor shot choices.He shoots long 2?s way too much to be efficient.

      Even with Melo back, I think I would like to see Copeland start (Brewer sit) and take away some of Felton FGA. Copeland was 42-91 3?s in one stint in D-league, but that was back in 2007. He is 6-13 this year, but sample size too small.The jury is still out if he can be another deep threat. He’s not know for defense hopefully Woodson can instill defensive discipline.

      What sucks is that the long two’s are his best shot % wise.
      Also copeland plays no defense and doesn’t look quick enough to stay with 3s or big and strong enough to hold up against 4s.

    71. iserp

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: hardan wa s rly good last nite but i think he not much a upgrade ovar shumpart, i mena

      can he make not 1 but TWO turnovars bnext to 1 anothar on teh legend D_WADE?

      Begging for attention, uh?

      When are you going to address that PER (a shitty stat that i consider is good enough to compare players that play the same position with somewhat similar skillsets) tells us that James Harden is the same player that was last year and Kevin Martin is the same player than last year meanwhile WP48 (The stat that correlates really well with winning) tells us that James Harden soul took over Kevin Martin’s body?

    72. Z-man

      Z,
      Totally repect your response and your choice re: Knicks. I do admit to missing the sardonic wittiness of your posts. What’s ironic is that you were here as a regular contributer during the darkest years, and now that the team has finally gotten over the hump, it does nothing for you. Maybe when the playoff juices start flowing it will do something for you. Hope you still check in from time to time.

      PS I was never a “let Lin go” guy before they let him go, more like a “it’s not so bad” and “it doen’t make Dolan stupid in and of itself” and “each deal should be judged on its own merits” and “Felton might be a good or better for this particular team and at aq great price” guy.

    73. Z-man

      BTW, Z, Thomas B. waxed poetic on how boring it is to be a fan of a good team a few games back. Funny stuff.

      Is Ted Nelson the next to resurface?

    74. Juany8

      massive: Why choose to call WP/48 an intellectually pathetic all-in-one model but choose to place faith in WS/48?

      And WP/48 also likes Carmelo Anthony once you adjust his numbers for a SF (.156 as a SF, .121 as an F). I will keep stating that I do not believe the Knicks have played with a power forward yet this season. They’re going with 3 guards, a small forward, and a center.

      I don’t like WS either but I was countering the fact that no stat thought Melo was a star this season. The better thing is, Pelton has come out and admitted that Melo is better than WS gives him credit for! He calculated that once you took into account how much Melo improved his teammates efficiency, he was the all star everyone claimed him to be, before he started shooting 45% from 3. The guy that runs wins shares did a study that showed his stat didn’t evaluate a player like Melo as well as it could. I’ll respect that a lot more than a guy like Berri who refuses to even consider that the entire baskeball network of knowledge might know a bit more than him.

      So WS isn’t that good a stat, but Pelton can come out and admit that, while still using it as a nice base for starting a discussion. Neither WP or WS correlates well with future wins, that’s a total myth, so if people are going to bring up one as indisputable proof that one player is bad, I don’t see why the other is less valid. Especially since WS never said Landry Fields was a top 10 player (note, Fields was better last year than Melo has been this year according to WP, but not even close according to WS)

    75. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      iserp: Begging for attention, uh?

      When are you going to address that PER (a shitty stat that i consider is good enough to compare players that play the same position with somewhat similar skillsets) tells us that James Harden is the same player that was last year and Kevin Martin is the same player than last year meanwhile WP48 (The stat that correlates really well with winning) tells us that James Harden soul took over Kevin Martin’s body?

      Who gives a shit about PER? And who cares that Martin is +.040 or so in WP48? It’s been twenty games and Harden is shooting 59% TS on 22 FGA/48. Gloat at the end of the year, big guy.

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