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Sunday, October 26, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Apr 24 2012)

  • [New York Daily News] Chandler eager for another shot at Heat (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 06:54:23 GMT)
    Tyson Chandler is looking forward to picking up this weekend where he left off last June â?? down in Miami, in a playoff series against the Heat. But could he also win this one, without Dirk Nowitzki?

  • [New York Times] 76ers 105, Nets 87: Time Expires on Nets in New Jersey (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 05:24:07 GMT)
    One last round of “Let’s go, Nets” in the Garden State, and the team is off to Brooklyn for next season.

  • [New York Times] Wizards 101, Bobcats 73: Wizards Hand Bobcats 21st Straight Loss (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 04:43:03 GMT)
    Jan Vesely had 16 points on 8-for-8 shooting, and Washington handed Charlotte another defeat; if the team loses its final two, it will finish with the worst winning percentage in N.B.A. history.

  • [New York Times] Column: So Much for ‘Peace’ in NBA This Season (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:28:59 GMT)
    Just like the real thing, Metta World Peace didn’t last very long.

  • [New York Times] Spurs Crowned Best in the West, 76ers Reach Playoffs (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 05:14:33 GMT)
    The San Antonio Spurs cemented their position as the Western Conference top seeds for the second year in a row after thrashing the Portland Trail Blazers 124-89 on Monday.

  • [New York Times] Speights, Gasol Lead Grizzlies Past Cavaliers (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:05:14 GMT)
    Marreese Speights had 17 points and 10 rebounds, Marc Gasol also scored 17 points, and the Memphis Grizzlies beat the Cleveland Cavaliers 109-101 Monday night for their fifth straight win.

  • [New York Times] Spurs Lock Up West’s Top Seed With Rout of Blazers (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:59:05 GMT)
    The San Antonio Spurs have locked up another No. 1 seed.

  • [New York Times] Bucks Eliminated Despite 92-86 Win Over Raptors (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 04:11:06 GMT)
    In the end, there wasn’t anything Brandon Jennings, Monta Ellis or anybody else could do to save the Milwaukee Bucks’ faint playoff hopes. Not even winning.

  • [New York Times] 76ers Make Playoffs for 2nd Straight Season (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 02:11:43 GMT)
    The Philadelphia 76ers nailed down the final playoff berth in the Eastern Conference and spoiled the Nets’ final game in New Jersey with a 105-87 victory Monday night.

  • [New York Times] AP Source: Wizards, Grunfeld Agree to Contract (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 02:32:11 GMT)
    After ups and downs during nearly a decade with the Washington Wizards, Ernie Grunfeld is getting more time to run the franchise.

  • [New York Times] George Leads Pacers Past Pistons 103-97 (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 01:59:20 GMT)
    Paul George scored 12 of his 27 points in the fourth quarter to help the Indiana Pacers beat the Detroit Pistons 103-97 on Monday night.

  • [New York Times] Column: So Much for ‘Peace’ in NBA This Season (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 02:23:53 GMT)
    Just like the real thing, Metta World Peace didn’t last very long.

  • [New York Times] A Top 10 Hit List in NBA History (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:07:57 GMT)
    A look at the worst fights, punches and cheap shots in NBA history:

  • [New York Times] Spurs Crowned Best in the West, 76ers Reach Playoffs (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:35:09 GMT)
    The San Antonio Spurs cemented their position as the Western Conference top seeds for the second year in a row after thrashing the Portland Trail Blazers 124-89 on Monday.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Micheal Ray Richardson, a Former Net, Talks About the Knicks (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:24:32 GMT)
    Micheal Ray Richardson likes the Knicks’ chances of pulling an upset in the first round of the N.B.A. playoffs – in all likelihood against the Miami Heat.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Opening Tip: Should Woodson rest Melo? (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 06:00:00 EDT)
    Every weekday throughout the season, ESPNNewYork.com will tackle a burning question about the Knicks in our “Opening Tip” segment.
    Today’s Burning Question: Should Mike Woodson rest Carmelo Anthony Wednesday or Thursday?
    Mike Woodson gave Tyson Chandler the day off on Sunday. Is it time to give Carmelo Anthony a breather?
    Of course, the Knicks are still trying to win games. And Anthony hasn’t said he’d like a day off, like Chandler did before Sunday’s game against the Hawks.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Melo 'absolutely' wants Woodson back (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:04:52 EDT)
    Count Carmelo Anthony among those who want to see Knicks interim head coach Mike Woodson back next year.
    “Absolutely,” Anthony told ESPN’s Hannah Storm in an interview for the SportsCenter series “Face2Face.” “I’m a big supporter of what coach Woodson has done. His approach to the game, and what he gets out of all his players, even me. He holds everybody accountable and that’s what we need.”
    Woodson took over the Knicks on March 14 when they were six games under .

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Sixers in, Bucks out, Knicks aim for sixth (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 00:30:01 EDT)
    With the Sixers’ 105-87 win over the Nets Monday night — the last NBA game in New Jersey before the team moves to Brooklyn — that means they’re officially in the playoffs, even though the Bucks beat the Raptors, 92-86.
    Now, the Knicks and Sixers have the same record (34-30), but the Knicks own the seventh seed because they have the tiebreaker based on head-to-head matchups this season (2-1).
    Both teams have two games left. While the Knicks play the Clippers and Bobcats, the Sixers face the Bucks and Pistons.

  • [New York Post] Knicks trying to avoid Heat, Bulls in first round (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:13:51 -0500)
    Miami or Chicago?
    Maybe not either. The Knicks will take the court tomorrow night in their regular-season Garden finale against the Clippers still with a chance to capture the sixth seed, supplant Orlando and avoid the mighty Heat or Bulls in the first round.
    If the dysfunctional, Dwight Howard-less Magic…

  • [New York Post] Knicks center Chandler eager to represent USA at London Olympics (Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:13:51 -0500)
    With big men Dwight Howard and LaMarcus Aldridge out for the London Olympics after surgeries, center Tyson Chandler said he is ready to don the red, white and blue after the Knicks’ playoff run.
    With the dearth of big men and Andrew Bynum saying he wasn’t interested, Chandler may…

  • 76 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Apr 24 2012)

    1. d-mar

      Kind of sad to see the Nets go out with a whimper, now ownership has to figure out a way to either keep D-Will or sign a star to open Brooklyn (heard they are talking about Garnett, that would be a desperation move of the highest order)

      Beck wrote a great article yesterday in the NY Times about the crazy history of the Nyets (whoop-de-damn-do), highly recommended. Loved this anecdote:

      “On Nov. 9, 1978, the Nets were in Philadelphia when Bernard King, their best player, incurred two technical fouls for protesting a call. Kevin Loughery, his excitable coach, began screaming and he, too, was assessed two technicals, which meant his automatic ejection. But a strange thing happened. The referee Richie Powers gave both King and Loughery a third technical. After taking the free throws, the Sixers went on to win in overtime as Phil Jackson, a part-time Loughery assistant and broadcaster, coached his first N.B.A. game.

      A Nets protest was subsequently upheld, and the N.B.A. ordered the game to be resumed at the point in the third quarter when Powers assessed the illegal technicals. Except by the time the resumption occurred on March 23, 1979, — before another scheduled game between the teams in Philadelphia — the Nets had traded Eric Money and Al Skinner to the 76ers for Harvey Catchings and Ralph Simpson.

      In the final box score of the suspended game, which the Nets naturally lost, before also dropping the second game, three of the four players — Skinner being the exception — appeared on both sides.”

    2. KnickfaninNJ

      I was reading the article about Ernie Grunfield being extended as Washington’s GM. It looks like they might be in the market for a coach. Does anyone think D’Antoni might end up there; and, if so, if it would be a good fit?

    3. thenamestsam

      KnickfaninNJ:
      I was reading the article about Ernie Grunfield being extended as Washington’s GM.It looks like they might be in the market for a coach. Does anyone think D’Antoni might end up there; and, if so, if it would be a good fit?

      I think it seems like a good fit in the sense that if I were GM of that team my first priority would be trying to get Wall back on track. He has immense talent but his development seems to have stalled, and if that team is going to blossom they really need him to become a star. So a PG friendly coach would be my top priority and Dantoni is certainly that. Plus that team has just been so depressing over the last few years that playing a fun style would be good for them.

      My only concern would be that they have a lot of money invested in Nene now and he doesn’t seem like a great fit for the Dantoni system as he’s not primarily a pick and roll guy. Overall though I’d say good fit just because it should help Wall blossom and that’s the first priority.

    4. TelegraphedPass

      KnickfaninNJ: I was reading the article about Ernie Grunfield being extended as Washington’s GM. It looks like they might be in the market for a coach. Does anyone think D’Antoni might end up there; and, if so, if it would be a good fit?

      I think it might be a good fit. DA gives a lot of power to his point guards, and it could empower John Wall and help him realize some of that tremendous potential he has.

      Nene was scoring 1.21 PPP on 63% shooting in Denver this season out of the pick&roll, and I’m sure DA could utilize that well. Trevor Booker’s PnR numbers are also very strong.

      I kind of like DA in WAS, but he just seems so perfect for LAC yanno?

    5. KnickfaninNJ

      Thanks for the inputs. I didnt realize the clippers were looking for a coach. But Washington probably has a window to hire D’antoni while the Clippers are still in the playoffs. And Denamestam makes a good point, the Washington fans and players could sure use apes enjoyable team.

    6. TelegraphedPass

      @5 Coach Vinny Del Negro is really really bad at designing plays. He is universally accepted as the worst coach in the NBA. I would be shocked if they didn’t at least explore the option of signing MDA.

    7. KnickfaninNJ

      TelegraphedPass:
      @5 Coach Vinny Del Negro is really really bad at designing plays. He is universally accepted as the worst coach in the NBA. I would be shocked if they didn’t at least explore the option of signing MDA.
      Then if they get better with another coach like D’Antoni they might be a scary team. After all, they are already in the playoffs.

    8. Owen

      I don’t think D’Antoni would sign on for the Washington job. And John Wall looks like a bust at this point. Things may change but his statistical profile was actually pretty mediocre coming out of college. Long on assists, but just as long on turnovers. And not really that efficient from the field for a top pick. Plus athleticism and good defense for sure, but definitely some warning signs. And he has been followed that up by being pretty wretched in the NBA. Third year players often breakout though so maybe he will get it together. It hasn’t been a good situation in Washington, that is for sure….

      I agree the Clippers are the more likely landing spot. Although, it’s interesting Chris Paul has never really played at a high pace in his career. His teams have always been quite deliberate. I would be surprised to see Paul running a SSOL style offense.

    9. johnlocke

      Timberwolves? High scoring, non-defending team – check; pass first, high potential point guard – check; Pick and pop Power forward – check, high # of 3 pters attempted – check. That may be a good landing spot for him also — players don’t seem to have big egos (yet) and not as much media scrutiny as in a big market. Rick Adelman is well respected though

      Owen:
      I don’t think D’Antoni would sign on for the Washington job. And John Wall looks like a bust at this point. Things may change but his statistical profile was actually pretty mediocre coming out of college. Long on assists, but just as long on turnovers. And not really that efficient from the field for a top pick. Plus athleticism and good defense for sure, but definitely some warning signs. And he has been followed that up by being pretty wretched in the NBA. Third year players often breakout though so maybe he will get it together. It hasn’t been a good situation in Washington, that is for sure….

      I agree the Clippers are the more likely landing spot. Although, it’s interesting Chris Paul has never really played at a high pace in his career. His teams have always been quite deliberate. I would be surprised to see Paul running a SSOL style offense.

    10. prezs2reprsntme

      Lemme come to Wall’s defense real quick:

      He is FAR from a bust. Yes they usually breakout in year 3, but his team is also ATROCIOUS. Who was their best player in the last two years after him? Javale, who is actually in the bottom half of NBA Starting Centers arguably in terms of overall ability? Jordan Crawford, who should be a backup 2 guard?

      That he manages to near 9, 10 assist per game with the surrounding talent him in the past 2 years is a near miracle.

      I know it was versus a non-big 3 heat, but that game winning PnR pass to Nene…you could count on one hand the PGs who have the speed and passing ability to do that. Rondo, Rose, the end.

      Not a single PG is more deadly on the fast break (yes, including rondo). His defense is solid.

      Yes, he also has a HORRIBLE jumper…but he can get that to a passable level (see westbrook, see rose, see david lee, see wilson chandler, Jeremy Lin at a MUCH OLDER age than Wall is now,…see the countless players who develop passable jumpers despite coming into the nba without anything resembling a consistent jumpshot).

      Even without the jumper, he has the talent to be a lite-version of Rondo, provided he had some reliable scorers on his team to knock down his would-be assists, instead of such stalwarts as Rashard Lewis, Roger Mason, Trevor Booker, Jan Vesely, Andray Black Hole Blatche, etc.

      During the rookie soph game, in discussing him, jrue holiday, jeremy lin, Kyrie Irving, Brandon Knight, the only ones we know are better than Wall for SURE are Kyrie. Jrue might be. Certainly not Brandon Knight, and certainly not jeremy Lin considering the 3 yr age difference.

      I am a knick fan stuck in law school in DC, so I go to my fair share of Wizards games, and its just sad to see how talented he is, and then see how HORRIBLE the rest of his squads are.

      /rant

    11. Juany8

      Rose and Westbrook had a pretty mediocre statistical profile in college too, and most second year players this year didn’t see much serious improvement likely due to the lockout. Still too early to call him a bust, especially on such a dysfunctional team.

    12. Juany8

      johnlocke:
      Timberwolves?High scoring, non-defending team – check; pass first, high potential point guard – check; Pick and pop Power forward – check, high # of 3 pters attempted – check. That may be a good landing spot for him also — players don’t seem to have big egos (yet) and not as much media scrutiny as in a big market.Rick Adelman is well respected though

      Don’t insult Rick Adelman by pretending the Wolves would rather have D’Antoni. There is no comparison, Adelman is significantly better and he pretty much has control of player management right now.

    13. massive

      Yeah, calling Wall a bust by just looking at his stats seems ridiculous to me. That would be like say Iman Shumpert is having a bad rookie season because his numbers say so. Or that Rondo isn’t the best player on the Celtics because his numbers say so. Wall has all the talent in the world and a good head on his shoulders. I just hope they put a better team around him, because that team has less talent than the Bobcats.

    14. JK47

      Wall’s jump shot is just so putrid that I don’t know if he’s gonna make it. His eFG% is a ridiculous .286 on jump shots. He’s 3 for 42 on threes. I don’t care how bad your teammates are– if you shoot for a .286 eFG% on jump shots you’re probably not going to be a great NBA point guard.

    15. TelegraphedPass

      @10 Well.

      First off I respect that you want to defend Wall. I believe he has tremendous potential. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t looked like a bust thus far in his time in the league, as far as #1 overall picks go.

      Owen mentioned Wall’s pedestrian production in college, and he’s right. Wall wasn’t a standout player from a production standpoint. He’s big and fast, but doesn’t have exemplary court vision or shooting touch.

      You claim that only Rondo and Rose (!!!???) have the ability to make that gamewinning pass off the pick and roll. I assume you are trolling. Chris Paul, Steve Nash, LeBron James, Manu Ginobili, Deron Williams, Jose Calderon, and even Andre Miller have shown the ability to make those kind of passes their entire careers. You really think Rondo, Rose, and WALL are the only guys able to make a solid PnR late-game play?????

      How does the age difference between Lin guarantee that he can’t be better than Wall? You really think development occurs in a linear fashion? That those two years between Lin and Wall mean that there is no chance that Wall never develops into an above average PG?

      I respect your Wall love, but chill.

    16. formido

      prezs2reprsntme: tainly not jeremy Lin considering the 3 yr age difference.

      You’re making too much of the age difference in this case. Unlike Wall or Irving, Lin didn’t devote his life full time to basketball until last year, and you can see the improvement made. Being able to improve is a basketball talent just like long arms and speed and Lin has it in spades, in the same way, e.g., Nash did. Nash was in his mid to late 20s before he was good. But we’ll see which one of us is right in the next 2 or 3 years.

    17. TelegraphedPass

      I’m not saying Wall will be a bust. That would be ridiculous. He has been really really underwhelming thus far.

      Also, his teammates are a tad better than we’re giving them credit for. He’s had shooters (Nick Young, Roger “How u?” Mason, Jr.?, Rashard Lewis) and lob targets (Booker, JVMG). Let’s not act like he’s some Point God for getting assists out of that bunch.

    18. PC

      Basic stats:

      Wall is getting 16.5ppg, 4.5 boards, and 8 assists per game.

      Rondo is getting 12.1ppg, 5 boards, and 11.6 assists per game.

      Wall seems to be on his way. Wall needs to fix a lot of things. But he is light years away from other #1 pick busts.

    19. JK47

      Wall is two years younger than Jeremy Lin, not three.

      Wall was born in September 1990; Lin was born in August 1988.

    20. johnlocke

      Easy… I was answering the question of where he’d be a good fit, not who is going to be handing him a contract

      Juany8: Don’t insult Rick Adelman by pretending the Wolves would rather have D’Antoni. There is no comparison, Adelman is significantly better and he pretty much has control of player management right now.

    21. JK47

      You want to know how terrible John Wall’s jump shot is? Compare his eFG% on jumpers this season to what some of this season’s Knicks have managed:

      John Wall .286

      Baron Davis .406
      Toney Douglas .333
      Mike Bibby .411
      Tyson Chandler .298
      Landry Fields .360
      Iman Shumpert .369
      Jared Jeffries .250

      So somewhere in between Jared Jeffries and Toney Douglas. I mean that is one terrible jump shot.

    22. TelegraphedPass

      Also,

      Some relevant PGs transition numbers:

      John Wall: 1.07 PPP, 55.9 FG%

      Rajon Rondo: .97 PPP, 60.6 FG%

      Chris Paul: 1.1 PPP, 58.5 FG%

      Russell Westbrook: 1.06 PPP, 58.7 FG%

      Tony Parker: 1.2 PPP, 60.9 FG%

      Jameer Nelson: 1.11 PPP, 59.4 FG%

      Ty Lawson: 1.15 PPP, 60.4 FG%

      John Wall is not definitively the most deadly PG in the fast break.

    23. prezs2reprsntme

      i’m not trolling. i said the word “speed” explicitly, and not by accident. That game winning play was made by speed and passing ability. that play was pedal to the floor speed followed by threading the needle.

      Obviously i am not saying he is the one of the top two overall PnR players, because he is not.

      And youre right, I cannot say with certainty who will be better w/ regard to lin v wall, and development is not linear, so I do concede that. I am assuming that Wall will not peak at age 20-21, and that when he is Jeremy’s age he’ll be further along than Jeremy is. All assumptions, of course, so we’ll see what actually happens over the years.

      I spoke very crudely in my original post, only bc I’ve met plenty other knick fans who over rate knick guards, on this website too, and have said they would not trade lin for Wall straight up, which to me is silly.

      the last comment i posted on KB was early in the season, defending JJ Barea from people who said Toney Douglas was clearly superior.

    24. TelegraphedPass

      PC: Basic stats:Wall is getting 16.5ppg, 4.5 boards, and 8 assists per game.Rondo is getting 12.1ppg, 5 boards, and 11.6 assists per game.Wall seems to be on his way. Wall needs to fix a lot of things. But he is light years away from other #1 pick busts.

      You’re going to use box scores to show that Wall is well on his way??

      Let’s just for the sake of argument do this:

      Irving
      Wall
      Griffin
      Rose
      Oden
      Bargs
      Bogut
      D12
      LBJ
      Yao
      Kwame
      K-Mart

      All the number one picks of the new millennium.

      How many of those names have had worse freshman and sophomore campaigns (barring injury) than Wall? Bargs, Kwame, and K-Mart. That’s it.

      So yeah, saying Wall has looked a bust for a #1 pick thus far isn’t too much of a reach.

    25. prezs2reprsntme

      and here is a question — not in trolling but in honest — the PPP and FG% for transition, would not include getting fouled in transition right?

      The eye test to me says Wall gets fouled in transition often, is there any way to look up how often PGs get fouled in transition?

    26. TelegraphedPass

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsRjn8QwhUY

      You think Wall’s speed is what completed that play??? The Heat doubled off of Nene’s pick, freeing up his roll to the rim? J Dub was not even gunning; he was curling. If anything, Nene’s quick split at the rim between Chalmers and Haslem is what completed the play. Wall’s wraparound pass was nice, but hardly unique.

    27. TelegraphedPass

      prezs2reprsntme: and here is a question — not in trolling but in honest — the PPP and FG% for transition, would not include getting fouled in transition right? The eye test to me says Wall gets fouled in transition often, is there any way to look up how often PGs get fouled in transition?

      I believe PPP takes into account foul shots. That’s why Rondo’s FG% in transition is significantly higher, but his PPP is significantly lower.

    28. prezs2reprsntme

      also, uncaptured in those stats, is how often they individually get in transition, how many times is the transition started by a rebounding big, versus by the PG himself, fouled, even what the definition of transition is, etc.

      Although I would generally concede that, again, you’re right, and I exaggerated. not definitely the best in transition, no.

    29. TelegraphedPass

      prezs2reprsntme: also, uncaptured in those stats, is how often they individually get in transition, how many times is the transition started by a rebounding big, versus by the PG himself, fouled, even what the definition of transition is, etc. Although I would generally concede that, again, you’re right, and I exaggerated. not definitely the best in transition, no.

      I just left the number of attempts out for the sake of clarity. If you’re interested, not one of them took fewer than 50 shots in transition. Most topped 150 total (Jameer is a bit of an outlier with only 64 shots in transition, but I felt it was enough to matter and plus I like Jameer).

    30. TelegraphedPass

      By the way, none of this is meant to disparage Wall or imply that he WILL be a bust. I happen to like Wall.

      My problem comes from the fact that because Wall is a #1 pick, he has gotten more leeway to make mistakes than players picked lower. Simply because he was a hyped #1 pick, his serious flaws are overlooked and he gets the benefit of the doubt.

      Every time Jeremy Lin turns the ball over, critics become more convinced that he will never be an above average player. Every time Dragic has a poor shooting performance, his naysayers are convinced he will never be able to run a team. Every time Rondo misses a wide open 18 footer, his detractors use that as evidence that he will never be a true elite PG.

      Mind you, John Wall has hit 3 more NBA threes this year than you all and I have. He is shooting 7% from deep. But people are convinced that he’ll eventually figure it out. People harp on about Lin’s weakness in perimeter shooting and claim that’s why he’ll never make it. But because Wall is faster (and really how much faster is debateable, but I don’t want to find the article that posted Lin’s surprising speed compared to Wall and Irving’s because that’s more work than I care to do right now) people assume he will automatically be better?

      I just don’t like all the leeway we give #1 picks. Or, to be more accurate, I feel that same courtesy should be extended to more young players.

    31. prezs2reprsntme

      yeah I doubt there is that much difference in amt of shots in transition.

      are these sortable stats on BRef or another site????

    32. prezs2reprsntme

      and yeah I know you’re not getting on wall like that, and the point about the leeway is absolutely true. People give that whole draft class a pass, but most especially him and Turner

    33. johnlocke

      I think a bust is too strong of a language, he’s clearly a talented guard – his elite skills are athleticism and dribbling speed for a point guard and penetration ability.. His passing / vision still needs a good amount of work, especially when he’s driving to the basket (don’t think his assist ratio is close to Rondo’s) he doesn’t have enough temp change in his game – typically leading to lots of turnovers (Rondo’s finishing at the rim is also better and more diverse), his jumper is in need of serious work, however he does shoot close to 80% from the line, you’d have to think he’d improve on that. His defense is also inconsistent and that along with the passing vision is where Rondo really blows him away.

      PC:
      Basic stats:

      Wall is getting 16.5ppg, 4.5 boards, and 8 assists per game.

      Rondo is getting 12.1ppg, 5 boards, and 11.6 assists per game.

      Wall seems to be on his way. Wall needs to fix a lot of things. But he is light years away from other #1 pick busts.

    34. 2FOR18

      Owen:
      I don’t think D’Antoni would sign on for the Washington job. And John Wall looks like a bust at this point. Things may change but his statistical profile was actually pretty mediocre coming out of college. Long on assists, but just as long on turnovers. And not really that efficient from the field for a top pick. Plus athleticism and good defense for sure, but definitely some warning signs. And he has been followed that up by being pretty wretched in the NBA. Third year players often breakout though so maybe he will get it together. It hasn’t been a good situation in Washington, that is for sure….

      I agree the Clippers are the more likely landing spot. Although, it’s interesting Chris Paul has never really played at a high pace in his career. His teams have always been quite deliberate. I would be surprised to see Paul running a SSOL style offense.

      Wall is the Alfonso Soriano of the NBA

    35. JK47

      “Wall is the Alfonso Soriano of the NBA”

      Juan Samuel is the guy I always think of when it comes to a player whose tools just don’t add up.

      Samuel was a really fast runner and had good power for a middle infielder. He could steal bases, but he wasn’t a great percentage base stealer, so his baserunning was kind of a wash. He also had a terrible on-base percentage so you couldn’t really bat him at the top of the lineup. He also had power, but not enough power so you could hit him in the middle of the lineup. His power was very good for a second baseman, but he was terrible with the glove so that was also a wash.

      He was talented, but useless.

    36. PC

      PC: Basic stats:Wall is getting 16.5ppg, 4.5 boards, and 8 assists per game.Rondo is getting 12.1ppg, 5 boards, and 11.6 assists per game.Wall seems to be on his way. Wall needs to fix a lot of things. But he is light years away from other #1 pick busts.

      My point in showing these stats is that it is not a stretch to think that Wall will become a 18-20ppg and 10 assists guy in this league. That’s not a bust. I get it, he can’t hit threes and his jumper sucks. Teams actually don’t even guard Rondo in the playoffs, and he is considered a god at the PG position (by many).

      You called him a bust – and its not even close. Does he have one of the more identifiable and potentially fatal flaw out of #1 picks, yes, but he still goes top 5 in the draft if they tossed him into the draft next year knowing what everyone knows. Can’t say that about any #1 “busts”

    37. TelegraphedPass

      PC: My point in showing these stats is that it is not a stretch to think that Wall will become a 18-20ppg and 10 assists guy in this league. That’s not a bust. I get it, he can’t hit threes and his jumper sucks. Teams actually don’t even guard Rondo in the playoffs, and he is considered a god at the PG position (by many). You called him a bust – and its not even close. Does he have one of the more identifiable and potentially fatal flaw out of #1 picks, yes, but he still goes top 5 in the draft if they tossed him into the draft next year knowing what everyone knows. Can’t say that about any #1 “busts”

      You’re ignoring everything about how inefficient he is and saying because he gets a lot of points and assists he isn’t a bust. He has no elite skills outside of his speed. Rondo, by comparison, is an elite defender at PG, and possesses elite court vision.

      Wall is a good passer, and a willing one, but he hasn’t played particularly well. Why is there this assumption that that will all just figure itself out?

      This isn’t NBA 2k. Players don’t just improve at a steady pace every year. He is so far near the bottom in terms of production compared to the production of all previous #1 picks from 2000 on. That matters.

    38. johnlocke

      Enough about Wall…he’s not a Knick and the Wizards wouldn’t trade him for Jeremy Lin anyway. Latest ESPN insider article has scouts explaining why Knicks could beat Bulls — among other points, Anthony would be the best player on the court. Can’t argue too much with that. Can Orlando really lose to the Bobcats? Interestingly, the only +500 teams they’ve beaten this year are our beloved Knicks and (drumroll)…the Magic.

    39. TelegraphedPass

      And again, I didn’t call him a bust. I said calling him a bust for a #1 pick based on how he’s played so far isn’t nearly the reach that you’re making it out to be. There is an important distinction there.

      I just dislike the fact that he gets amnesty from hearing any bust talk because of his magnificent ceiling when the fact remains that he is not and never has been particularly elite in any way.

      Certain players who have shown elite talents get far less respect BECAUSE they weren’t the #1 pick. We show so much faith in these scouts to make decisions, when it is really pretty impossible to determine just how good a player will become.

      It isn’t as if Wall showed any significant growth since his rookie year. Meanwhile, noted chucker Brandon Jennings has grown every year since entering the league. He’s lowered his turnover percentage, raised his TS%, and taken more shots without detriment to his efficiency. But simply because of his draft position, he will never get the kind of attention for this that Wall is getting. THAT’S my problem.

      And this isn’t to say I think Jennings will have a better career than Wall. But players are judged way more on talent and draft position and not enough on ACTUAL PRODUCTION and growth.

    40. New Guy

      I’ve said before, when people claim Amar’e is untradeable, that Washington would trade for him. They’re not that smart. They have little chance of ever getting a free agent to choose to go there. And he would pair well with Wall and Nene. Throw MDA into the mix there, and chances go up further.

      It would be a straight dump, most likely. They’d have to amnesty Lewis, then we would dump him for picks & cap room. But if we wanted to blow up the Amar’e/Melo partnership, that’s how it could happen.

    41. max fisher-cohen

      I’m curious to the people who have synergy subscriptions, is there any way to get the #s on Wall in terms of FG% at the rim outside of transition? I know from watching him he just doesn’t strike me as being very comfortable in traffic, which stinks because in the halfcourt, that’s the only way his other skills (i.e. foot speed) will allow him to score. He reminds me of a bigger and better defending version of Sebastian Telfair.

      On another topic, how do you all feel about this as it pertains to Jeremy Lin: http://zigsports.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/greg-oden-brandon-roy-what-what-happened/

      The Knicks don’t have a great history of guys recovering from injuries. McDyess and Allan Houston come to mind, although Gallinari did have those back issues his first year and seems to have put them in the past.

    42. d-mar

      johnlocke:
      Enough about Wall…he’s not a Knick and the Wizards wouldn’t trade him for Jeremy Lin anyway.Latest ESPN insider article has scouts explaining why Knicks could beat Bulls — among other points, Anthony would be the best player on the court. Can’t argue too much with that. Can Orlando really lose to the Bobcats? Interestingly, the only +500 teams they’ve beaten this year are our beloved Knicks and (drumroll)…the Magic.

      If the Magic were playing any other team in the NBA but the Bobcats, I’d say losing was possible. But Charlotte has been so putrid lately, getting blown out by such NBA elites as Washington and Sacramento, that I’d be shocked if it was even competitive for more than a quarter.

      We blew our chance in Cleveland

    43. 2FOR18

      JK47:
      “Wall is the Alfonso Soriano of the NBA”

      Juan Samuel is the guy I always think of when it comes to a player whose tools just don’t add up.

      Samuel was a really fast runner and had good power for a middle infielder.He could steal bases, but he wasn’t a great percentage base stealer, so his baserunning was kind of a wash.He also had a terrible on-base percentage so you couldn’t really bat him at the top of the lineup.He also had power, but not enough power so you could hit him in the middle of the lineup.His power was very good for a second baseman, but he was terrible with the glove so that was also a wash.

      He was talented, but useless.

      Funny cause I always used to compare Soriano to Samuel.

    44. Nick C.

      2FOR18: Funny cause I always used to compare Soriano to Samuel.

      Soriano is the 00s version of Samuel right down to the conversion from 2B to OF.

    45. New Guy

      JK47:
      You want to know how terrible John Wall’s jump shot is?Compare his eFG% on jumpers this season to what some of this season’s Knicks have managed:

      John Wall .286

      Baron Davis .406
      Toney Douglas .333
      Mike Bibby .411
      Tyson Chandler .298
      Landry Fields .360
      Iman Shumpert .369
      Jared Jeffries .250

      So somewhere in between Jared Jeffries and Toney Douglas.I mean that is one terrible jump shot.

      82games has it at .331:

      http://www.82games.com/1112/11WAS1.HTM

      Precisely the same as Rajon Rondo, who has carved out a pretty nice career as a PG despite his inability to shoot:

      http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS1.HTM

    46. ruruland

      d-mar: If the Magic were playing any other team in the NBA but the Bobcats, I’d say losing was possible. But Charlotte has been so putrid lately, getting blown out by such NBA elites as Washington and Sacramento, that I’d be shocked if it was even competitive for more than a quarter.

      We blew our chance in Cleveland

      They beat Orlando with Dwight and Hedo earlier in the year, Michael didn’t even have to suit up.

      http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320306030

      They’ve lost 21 straight games (25 is the record), and want to avoid the label “worst team in NBA history.”

      “We don’t want to be the worst team in NBA history. We know that in the back of our minds going into these next two games,” Augustin said.

      “It’s been very, very hard for me because I’ve never been through this before,” Charlotte coach Paul Silas said before the game.

      “The losing part kind of eats you up. I can’t sleep at night, wondering what we can do to change this thing around. I have to understand who we have, a lot of young people,” he said.

      It happens, 11-win Nuggets team beat the playoff bound Trailblazers in ’99 fighting for a higher seed.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199804170DEN.html

    47. johnlocke

      I’d have to agree. Just trying to find even some small thread of evidence to think they have more than a 1% chance of winning

      d-mar: If the Magic were playing any other team in the NBA but the Bobcats, I’d say losing was possible. But Charlotte has been so putrid lately, getting blown out by such NBA elites as Washington and Sacramento, that I’d be shocked if it was even competitive for more than a quarter.

      We blew our chance in Cleveland

    48. johnlocke

      The key there is % of attempts…Rondo tries to minimize what he doesn’t do all that well. 62% of Wall’s shots are jumpshots…

      ruruland: They beat Orlando with Dwight and Hedo earlier in the year, Michael didn’t even have to suit up.

      http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320306030

      They’ve lost 21 straight games (25 is the record), and want to avoid the label “worst team in NBA history.”

      “We don’t want to be the worst team in NBA history. We know that in the back of our minds going into these next two games,” Augustin said.

      “It’s been very, very hard for me because I’ve never been through this before,” Charlotte coach Paul Silas said before the game.

      “The losing part kind of eats you up. I can’t sleep at night, wondering what we can do to change this thing around. I have to understand who we have, a lot of young people,” he said.

      It happens, 11-win Nuggets team beat the playoff bound Trailblazers in ’99 fighting for a higher seed.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199804170DEN.html

    49. johnlocke

      That was in response to NewGuy not ruru

      johnlocke:
      The key there is % of attempts…Rondo tries to minimize what he doesn’t do all that well. 62% of Wall’s shots are jumpshots…

    50. New Guy

      johnlocke:
      The key there is % of attempts…Rondo tries to minimize what he doesn’t do all that well. 62% of Wall’s shots are jumpshots…

      It’s a fair point, but Rondo can afford to minimize bc he can pass to Pierce, Allen, Garnett. Wall doesn’t have that luxury.

    51. er

      Did anyone see the James Singleton flop on the tyrus thomas elbow….Jeff Van Gundy must have flipped his shit when he saw that. hahaha

    52. TelegraphedPass

      New Guy: It’s a fair point, but Rondo can afford to minimize bc he can pass to Pierce, Allen, Garnett. Wall doesn’t have that luxury.

      I’m sick and tired of players getting passes because of perceived lack of talent of their teammates.

      Rajon Rondo, alongside Brandon Bass, Avery Bradley, Michael Pietrus, and Greg Stiemsma, garnered 16 assists on April 15th.

      What evidence do you have that great passers are limited when given “worse” teammates?

    53. max fisher-cohen

      I do feel bad for Wall because his teammates have not only been bad, but they’ve been completely immature and lazy. Andray Blatche, Javale McGee, Nick Young is quite possibly the laziest trio of basketball players ever to start together. I still feel like Wall’s absolute ceiling is Mike Conley, and that’s with vastly improved decision making and jump shooting.

    54. New Guy

      TelegraphedPass: I’m sick and tired of players getting passes because of perceived lack of talent of their teammates.

      Rajon Rondo, alongside Brandon Bass, Avery Bradley, Michael Pietrus, and Greg Stiemsma, garnered 16 assists on April 15th.

      What evidence do you have that great passers are limited when given “worse” teammates?

      The topic was how many shots they take, not passing. My feeling is that if Wall had other teammates who could shoot as well and as frequently as Pierce and Allen, then maybe he could minimize the impact of his poor jump shot like Rondo does.

    55. TelegraphedPass

      That’s the only game Rondo played without KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen, but I can pull plenty of examples from other great passers in the league.

      Jose Calderon (alongside a starting lineup of DeMar DeRozan, Alan Anderson, Amir Johnson, and Aaron Gray) dished 14 dimes on the 9th.

      He dropped 12 assists with the same starting line-up against the Rockets on March 7th.

    56. TelegraphedPass

      New Guy: The topic was how many shots they take, not passing. My feeling is that if Wall had other teammates who could shoot as well and as frequently as Pierce and Allen, then maybe he could minimize the impact of his poor jump shot like Rondo does.

      Oh, I see what you’re saying. I’m not sure that will be the case, just because Wall isn’t a pass-first PG and never has been. It’s possible, but I think he takes shots because that’s how he plays. Look at Calderon. He’s consistently one of the most efficient shooters at PG but always limits his shots. That’s just how he plays.

    57. Owen

      Wow, didn’t realize I was sparking such a firestorm. Let’s give him another year I guess. I will say Kyrie Irving just had much much better numbers than Wall in college, so it doesn’t surprise that Irving made the leap, despite a poor team around him, a little more gracefully.

      Max – That is a very interesting article you posted re kinesiology, the Blazers, etc. Reading the article I felt a wisp of doubt over the fact that he found imbalances in all the guys who had had major knee surgeries already. The details of his approach I kind of skimmed through. Can’t really evaluate it. But I do think there is an edge to be found in doing that kind of work and probably in the numbers.

      I think there is a very interesting study to be done of playing style and injuries. If i were to criticize my love of true shooting percentage I think the injury issue would be the first think I would cite.

      i have no data to back it up but it would be really interesting to map fga at the rim and fta with injuries for guards. There are a lot of guys in this league who haven’t been able to stay healthy because of their style of play. Kevin Martin is the guy who jumps to mind. And Kobe is another, on the opposite side of the spectrum. His ability to stay on the court has been pretty amazing and I suspect it has a lot to do with his mid range game. Chris Paul’s fta have dropped from a high of 6.3 per 36 below 5 basically because he has chosen not to go into the forest quite as much.(from an interview with the sports guy)

      They have done a lot of injury studies recently in MLB, especially looking at slider use, and I think there probably are some interesting things you could pick up in the data about what kind of style of play is most conducive to getting injured or staying healthy.

      I would expect Ron Artest will probably be swinging an elbow straight out of that dataset….

    58. johnlocke

      Tony Parker has only really had one season where he missed meaningful games and is game is attacking the basket and I don’t think he ever hurt his knee

      Owen:
      i have no data to back it up but it would be really interesting to map fga at the rim and fta with injuries for guards.There are a lot of guys in this league who haven’t been able to stay healthy because of their style of play.

    59. nicos

      TelegraphedPass:
      That’s the only game Rondo played without KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen, but I can pull plenty of examples from other great passers in the league.

      Jose Calderon (alongside a starting lineup of DeMar DeRozan, Alan Anderson, Amir Johnson, and Aaron Gray) dished 14 dimes on the 9th.

      He dropped 12 assists with the same starting line-up against the Rockets on March 7th.

      Wall himself has 8 games with 12+ assists this year with his crappy teammates so I don’t think passing is really his problem. He does turn it over a lot but less than a number of point guards- Rondo and Lin among them. His assist rate was 40 last year, 38 this year- not Nash/Rondo level numbers but again better than Lin’s (and Dwill) so I think that his playmaking skills are there.
      Also, I didn’t check the numbers but I’d be much more interested in the number of attempts in fast breaks rather than ppp- everybody shoots a pretty good percentage in fast break situations- what matters is your ability to create those situations by pushing the ball.

    60. TelegraphedPass

      nicos: Wall himself has 8 games with 12+ assists this year with his crappy teammates so I don’t think passing is really his problem. He does turn it over a lot but less than a number of point guards- Rondo and Lin among them. His assist rate was 40 last year, 38 this year- not Nash/Rondo level numbers but again better than Lin’s (and Dwill) so I think that his playmaking skills are there.Also, I didn’t check the numbers but I’d be much more interested in the number of attempts in fast breaks rather than ppp- everybody shoots a pretty good percentage in fast break situations- what matters is your ability to create those situations by pushing the ball.

      It wasn’t significantly higher than the numbers of other stars. In the 250 range, just like CP3 and others.

    61. TelegraphedPass

      nicos: Wall himself has 8 games with 12+ assists this year with his crappy teammates so I don’t think passing is really his problem. He does turn it over a lot but less than a number of point guards- Rondo and Lin among them. His assist rate was 40 last year, 38 this year- not Nash/Rondo level numbers but again better than Lin’s (and Dwill) so I think that his playmaking skills are there.Also, I didn’t check the numbers but I’d be much more interested in the number of attempts in fast breaks rather than ppp- everybody shoots a pretty good percentage in fast break situations- what matters is your ability to create those situations by pushing the ball.

      And Lin’s assist percentage sits at 41.2%, above Wall’s 36.1%.

    62. bockadoo

      An off-day topic – NBA coach=NFL coach
      maybe not so much results, but personality/reputation/style…
      I say:
      Tibs=Belechick
      MDA=Mike Martz or Don Coryell
      SVG=Rex Ryan
      Pop=Coughlin
      Phil=Parcells
      Does this warrant any comments?

    63. nicos

      TelegraphedPass: And Lin’s assist percentage sits at 41.2%, above Wall’s 36.1%.

      If you dominate the ball you’ll have a high assist % so it means less to me than assist rate when you’re trying to assess someone’s playmaking ability. The fact that Wall has a decent assist rate despite his crappy teammates and all the pressure of being “the man” that comes with being the #1 pick shows me his mindset really is pass first. I still think he could turn out to pretty good- not a great player (unless his jump shot radically improves) but not a bust.

    64. Owen

      “Kyrie Irving barely played in college, 11 games total.”

      That’s true, and in those 11 games he posted the best paws40 of any player in college at 13.6. (edit: and yeah, bad competition probably etc etc)

      John Wall was actually stronger by that measure than I realized. I was a bit harsh in saying his college numbers were bad. But he wasn’t anywhere near the top.

      And, let me throw in the required caveat that college statistics don’t mean anything. But I would rather my #1 overall pick have the best stats of any college player than not. And Paws40 looks pretty right on Irving.

      Whoever picks Anthony Davis will be able to say they got the guy with the best stats in college, not that it isn’t obvious he is the best player in the draft just from watching him.

    65. Owen

      “Tony Parker has only really had one season where he missed meaningful games and is game is attacking the basket and I don’t think he ever hurt his knee”

      It’s a hard thing to evaluate just by thinking about players off the top of your head. i could fire Dwyane Wade right back at you. I think you need a big data set.

      And it definitely might not be true. This is total speculation. But I think the inability to make an outside jumper and a high contact rate (someone needs to invent that stat) probably leads to more injury over time. And as you age, I would bet it’s harder to sustain.

      There may be other things in the data too. For instance, do ft attempts and drives to the rim rise in a contract year and decline thereafter? Hard to know without some data crunching but I bet front offices have looked at this kind of thing, they definitely do in baseball…

    66. johnlocke

      I wasn’t saying you’re wrong. Your hypothesis makes intuitive sense — just throwing out an example of a smaller guard who attacks the rim fairly often (assuming he has a fairly high FT rate for a guard – too lazy to look it up) and has not had many injuries. If you wanted to do the analysis, you could choose a meaningful enough time range, look at guards with a high FT rate and a high % of their shots at the rim, and relatively high usage rates – compile the list of players that meet that criteria and then look at their injury histories throughout their careers.. I don’t really care enough to do this, but you could do that to test your hypothesis

      Owen:
      “Tony Parker has only really had one season where he missed meaningful games and is game is attacking the basket and I don’t think he ever hurt his knee”

      It’s a hard thing to evaluate just by thinking about players off the top of your head. i could fire Dwyane Wade right back at you. I think you need a big data set.

      And it definitely might not be true. This is total speculation. But I think the inability to make an outside jumper and a high contact rate (someone needs to invent that stat) probably leads to more injury over time. And as you age, I would bet it’s harder to sustain.

      There may be other things in the data too. For instance, do ft attempts and drives to the rim rise in a contract year and decline thereafter? Hard to know without some data crunching but I bet front offices have looked at this kind of thing, they definitely do in baseball…

    67. johnlocke

      Also the Toney Parker was not a random, off the top of my head call-out, but really due to the fact that my eye-test says that he is the star player most similar to Jeremy Lin, who Jeremy Lin could emulate. Much closer in playing style than to Steve Nash in my mind….haven’t looked at what the advanced stats say on that, but I’d have Lin model his game after Toney P. The first thing he should work on then his penetrating, passing and finishing strong with his left hand

    68. Juany8

      Wall is not pass first? Does anyone actually watch the guy play? (I realize watching Wizards games is torture so it’s ok if you haven’t) He gets a lot of turnovers since he’s the team’s primary scorer, but he puts up assists at an elite rate on a team of gunners who never pass the ball. There’s no continuity to anything Washington does, I admit that Wall’s jumper is seriously flawed right now but that could become passable with time (go look at Rose’s 3 FG% in his first 2 years) I admit that he’s probably not going to be a super star unless he makes a significant leap, but he can be a pretty damn effective point guard who can defend, pass, and run the break at an elite level. A lot of talented point guards in recent years have improved their play in their 3rd-4th years, and John Wall was stuck on the worst team in the NBA and had to deal with a lockout that Screwed up every second year player (even Griffin didn’t improve much from last year, and Evan Turner is pretty mediocre)

    69. Owen

      Yeah, well, Lin could be a guy who breaks down too. He drives a lot.

      I guess I will take a look at it myself at some point….

    70. 2FOR18

      Juany8:
      Wall is not pass first? Does anyone actually watch the guy play? (I realize watching Wizards games is torture so it’s ok if you haven’t) He gets a lot of turnovers since he’s the team’s primary scorer, but he puts up assists at an elite rate on a team of gunners who never pass the ball. There’s no continuity to anything Washington does, I admit that Wall’s jumper is seriously flawed right now but that could become passable with time (go look at Rose’s 3 FG% in his first 2 years) I admit that he’s probably not going to be a super star unless he makes a significant leap, but he can be a pretty damn effective point guard who can defend, pass, and run the break at an elite level. A lot of talented point guards in recent years have improved their play in their 3rd-4th years, and John Wall was stuck on the worst team in the NBA and had to deal with a lockout that Screwed up every second year player (even Griffin didn’t improve much from last year, and Evan Turner is pretty mediocre)

      I watched a lot of Wash. earlier in the year because for some reason I thought they would by a fun team to watch. I saw a lot of Wall running really fast towards the basket with his head down and turning the ball over. And I saw the worst jump shooting guard I’ve ever seen. I came away with the impression that he should be a RB or WR. And this is from someone who really thought the guy was a stud.

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