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Wednesday, October 22, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Thursday, May 23 2013)

  • [New York Times] LeBron, Heat Dig Deep to Top Pacers in Game 1 (Thu, 23 May 2013 07:27:13 GMT)
    It could have been the perfect matchup to cap an unforgettable game. LeBron James driving to the rim to face Roy Hibbert, one play to decide Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals.    

  • [New York Times] Game 1: Heat 103, Pacers 102 (OT): LeBron James’s Layup at Buzzer Gives Heat Game 1 Victory (Thu, 23 May 2013 06:00:35 GMT)
    LeBron James’s layup at the buzzer in overtime rescued the Heat after the Pacers appeared to have sealed a victory on three free throws by Paul George, who finished with 27 points.    

  • [New York Times] Game 1: Heat 103, Pacers 102 (OT): James Saves Heat at Buzzer of Game 1 (Thu, 23 May 2013 04:51:09 GMT)
    LeBron James made a layup as time expired in overtime, and the Miami Heat found a way to beat the Indiana Pacers in a wild Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals on Wednesday.    

  • [New York Daily News] MRI shows Melo has torn labrum in left shoulder (Thu, 23 May 2013 06:03:11 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony played 12 playoff games with a partially torn left shoulder, the Daily News has learned. An MRI of Anthony’s shoulder revealed a partially torn labrum, according to a Knicks source and there is a possibility that Anthony may need surgery.    

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks Insider: Amar’e sees bigger role with Knicks (Thu, 23 May 2013 02:54:53 GMT)
    Amar’e Stoudemire’s agent said the veteran forward is unhappy with the way the season ended for him and the Knicks, but that Stoudemire believes he’ll play a bigger role next year.    

  • [New York Post] Carmelo has small shoulder tear; J.R. has fluid on knee (Thu, 23 May 2013 03:45:46 -0500)
    The Knicks’ 1-2 scoring tandem was truly hurting in the ill-fated Pacers series.
    Not only did Carmelo Anthony play with what an MRI exam Wednesday revealed was a partial tear in his left shoulder, but The Post has learned J.R. Smith’s nightmarish playoff performance was partly because of…

  • [New York Post] Prigioni wants to stay in NBA (Thu, 23 May 2013 03:28:26 -0500)
    Say it’s so, Pablo!
    Knicks rookie point guard Pablo Prigioni said on Argentine radio Wednesday his preference is to remain in the NBA next season rather than return to the Spanish League and his wife is OK with it.
    “If I can choose, I prefer to play in the…

  • [New York Post] Coach K back but not D’Antoni (Thu, 23 May 2013 00:59:00 -0500)
    USA Basketball will announce today Mike Krzyzewski will return as coach of the U.S. men’s basketball team, but former Knicks coach Mike D’Antoni will no longer be part of his staff.
    According to a source, D’Antoni, who now runs the Lakers, turned down the job as…

  • 127 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Thursday, May 23 2013)

    1. Hubert

      I got a bone to pick this AM.

      I was mostly mocked and ridiculed for suggesting Copeland at the 5 vs Indiana. The common response being “Hibbert will become Super Olajuwon if we do that.”

      When we finally went to Copeland at the 5 in the final minute of game 6 (out of necessity b/c Martin & Tyson both fouled out), something peculiar happened:

      Vogel took Hibbert out.

      I dismissed this at the time because it could be passed off as the final minute of a game that was decided therefore it didn’t mean anything.

      But then last night happened.

      Frank Vogel took Roy Hibbert out of the game for every important defensive possession when Miami went small, including up by 1 with 2.2 seconds left.

      You gotta be fucking kidding me.

      So if we had just TRIED Copeland at the 5, Vogel would have taken Roy Hibbert OUT OF THE GAME! You can’t dominate us when you’re not in the game!

      Now this isn’t to say that if we played Copeland at the 5 for 35 minutes that Hibbert would only have played 13. I’m not suggesting anything that silly. But the point is Indiana’s defense is so compromised by making Hibbert have to play a shooter that Frank Vogel thinks it’s better to not have him in the game. Which means we really should have had Copeland at the 5.

      So everyone who suggested I was a fool for harping on that regular season game where Chris Copeland dominated Indiana while playing the 5: You were extremely wrong.

      It frustrated me beyond belief to see that last night. And it’s even more frustrating because I don’t have any confidence that Woodson realizes his error today, either. And you can’t fix a mistake you don’t recognize.

    2. johnlocke

      I understand where you are coming from, but comparing Copeland to Bosh is insulting to Bosh. Bosh is not a liability on the defense end, rebounds the ball, and is a better, more reliable offensive threat

      Hubert:
      I got a bone to pick this AM.

      I was mostly mocked and ridiculed for suggesting Copeland at the 5 vs Indiana.The common response being “Hibbert will become Super Olajuwon if we do that.”

      When we finally went to Copeland at the 5 in the final minute of game 6 (out of necessity b/c Martin & Tyson both fouled out), something peculiar happened:

      Vogel took Hibbert out.

      I dismissed this at the time because it could be passed off as the final minute of a game that was decided therefore it didn’t mean anything.

      But then last night happened.

      Frank Vogel took Roy Hibbert out of the game for every important defensive possession when Miami went small, including up by 1 with 2.2 seconds left.

      You gotta be fucking kidding me.

      So if we had just TRIED Copeland at the 5, Vogel would have taken Roy Hibbert OUT OF THE GAME!You can’t dominate us when you’re not in the game!

      Now this isn’t to say that if we played Copeland at the 5 for 35 minutes that Hibbert would only have played 13.I’m not suggesting anything that silly.But the point is Indiana’s defense is so compromised by making Hibbert have to play a shooter that Frank Vogel thinks it’s better to not have him in the game.Which means we really should have had Copeland at the 5.

      So everyone who suggested I was a fool for harping on that regular season game where Chris Copeland dominated Indiana while playing the 5: You were extremely wrong.

      It frustrated me beyond belief to see that last night.And it’s even more frustrating because I don’t have any confidence that Woodson realizes his error today, either.And you can’t fix a mistake you don’t recognize.

    3. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      I understand where you are coming from, but comparing Copeland to Bosh is insulting to Bosh. Bosh is not a liability on the defense end, rebounds the ball, and is a better, more reliable offensive threat

      Agreed that Copeland is obviously no Bosh, but I have to agree with Hubert that to not have even really tried out Copeland until the series was mostly decided was a big mistake. I think it was pretty obvious that throwing Copeland in the game was going to change some things. It was going to seriously compromise what they were trying to do defensively, but it was also going to even further weaken us in the post and on the boards where we were already getting our lunch money repeatedly taken. Would it have been a net positive in the end? Hard to say, but I think it was a card worth playing to see how Vogel would react.

    4. Hubert

      I get that, John. But you had to try it. And if we had, chances are Roy Hibbert would have gone to the bench for a stretch.

      If we had Copeland at the 5 in the 4Q of game 6, Roy Hibbert doesn’t block Carmelo Anthony’s dunk and it’s 94-90 Knicks on their way to a game 7 at MSG.

      And the flaw in the “you can’t compare Copeland to Bosh” argument is you really can’t compare Tyson to Bosh, either. I mean, Chandler wasn’t giving us the things Bosh is giving them.

    5. Frank

      johnlocke:
      I understand where you are coming from, but comparing Copeland to Bosh is insulting to Bosh. Bosh is not a liability on the defense end, rebounds the ball, and is a better, more reliable offensive threat

      Obviously Bosh is an overall superior offensive player but for the specific purpose of pulling Hibbert out of the paint, I’d honestly rather have Copeland. Bosh is a very good midrange shooter but shot only 28% from 3 point range this year (and for his career). Copeland shot 42%, and is a gunner (meaning that if he gets it, he’s shooting it)- exactly what you want for this purpose- not only to have a threat, but also the will to shoot it. There’s no way Hibbert could leave Copeland alone out there.

      Whatever- we were asking for that for days on end during this series. Hopefully Woody saw that last night and knows now that he played right into Vogel’s hands- and that it would’ve been so easy to have had the upper hand there.

    6. johnno

      I read yesterday’s thread and I just don’t understand the sentiment that the Knicks have to blow up their entire roster. First, despite the game one no-show, think about how close the Knicks were to being in the ECF. If Hibbert doesn’t block Melo’s dunk and the refs don’t call the phantom 6th foul on Martin, there’s a good chance that the Knicks win game 6 and, if they do, does anyone think that they don’t have a great chance to win game 7 at home? Second, Melo and JR were both playing hurt and Chandler was clearly not fully recovered from being sick/injured. (For anyone who didn’t see it,there is a report today that JR has fluid on his knee, just like Melo did earlier in the season — and remember what it did to Melo’s jumper.) If they can bring back JR, Copeland and Pablo and add a decent rookie in the draft and a couple decent minimum wage vets (I think that they should revisit signing James Singleton), I think that they’ll be in good shape next year.
      Melo needs to learn how to flop around like Harden, Durant and LeBron do. He gets clobbered and fights through it and then complains to the ref when he doesn’t get the call. LeBron, Harden and Durant, on the other hand, flail their arms in the air and act like they got shot every time that they get touched and the ref calls the foul.
      Finally, re: Melo and the media — If Durant or LeBron were playing with the injury that Melo had, the media would be acting like they had simultaneously cured cancer and inspired the world to live in peace and harmony while criticizing Melo for “choking” and being unable to carry his team on his back. By the way, I love how Durant shot 5 for 21 in the elimination game and he gets no criticism.

    7. johnlocke

      Sure. I was screaming for Woody to put Copeland in as well. I think it would have given us a better shot of winning (more because Kidd and JR were mostly wastes of space on offense). I would have rather Woody made that adjustment in Game 3 than going BIG which was retarded on many levels. Also Vogel’s rationale for pulling Hibbert only on the final 2 possessions was retarded — I think he overreacted because well because Bosh is Bosh. I don’t know if he would have had a similar reaction to Chris Copeland, but I agree we should have had Chris in more, throughout the entire series. Kidd should have never played, Prigs should have played more, Kidd should have never been the only PG on the floor in any scenario, Kmart should have taken more of Chandler’s minutes, we shouldn’t have doubled Hibbert on every fucking possession — so many things were done wrong in that series, mostly by Woody….ay ya yi

      Hubert:
      I get that, John.But you had to try it.And if we had, chances are Roy Hibbert would have gone to the bench for a stretch.

      If we had Copeland at the 5 in the 4Q of game 6, Roy Hibbert doesn’t block Carmelo Anthony’s dunk and it’s 94-90 Knicks on their way to a game 7 at MSG.

      And the flaw in the “you can’t compare Copeland to Bosh” argument is you really can’t compare Tyson to Bosh, either.I mean, Chandler wasn’t giving us the things Bosh is giving them.

    8. KnickfaninNJ

      Hubert:
      That Prigioni news didn’t sound promising, by the way.

      Why is it unpromising that he wants to stay in the NBA? I would have thought that was good news.

      Also, the Knicks could use a good backup big man, and Oden is reported to be looking good but the Knicks aren’t one of the team’s reportedly interested in him, and I am not sure why.

      In a minor tidbit, Jon Stewart interviewed Phil Jackson on the Daily show on Tuesday. It was fun. Jon gave Phil a hard time for not putting his two championship rings won with the Knicks on the cover of the book.

    9. massive

      So now JR played in the playoffs with a minor fluid build up.

      So that’s a torn labrum, a bulging disk in a neck, and a bum knee. Does Iman Shumpert’s face need to melt off before we fire this training staff? Our team’s injuries always seem to linger and last forever. I’m seriously tired of the ineptitude because it is clearly costing us wins. 3 of our 4 most important players were playing hurt and there was seemingly nothing the training staff did to make it better but “here, wear this protective padding” or “let’s just put some ice on it and see if that makes it better.” They need to go.

    10. thenamestsam

      KnickfaninNJ: Also, the Knicks could use a good backup big man, and Oden is reported to be looking good but the Knicks aren’t one of the team’s reportedly interested in him, and I am not sure why.

      If I were Oden my top priority would be going to a team with a very well respected medical staff. And the Knicks are not that, at least as far as I can tell. All our guys seem to be always dealing with injuries. And I think it also makes sense for him to go a team out of the spotlight where he can try to get his career back on track without all the media scrutiny of his health that has been a constant for him. New York wouldn’t be a great landing spot for him in my opinion.

    11. llcoolbp

      Melo could be out 4-6 months if he needs surgery on that left shoulder. Knicks will let him rest and re-evaluate in 3 weeks. I think we all know how this story ends. Melo out till New years day. Knicks floundering. Oh well, I guess we really should have enjoyed this second round this year, because it’s tough to see a repeat 54 win season next year.

    12. DRed

      That’s ridiculous, ll. What will happen is that they’ll announce that the rest worked fine, Melo will shoot poorly for the first few weeks of the season, and then they’ll announce that he suffered a freak injury and will have to miss the rest of the season.

    13. johnno

      DRed: What will happen is that they’ll announce that the rest worked fine, Melo will shoot poorly for the first few weeks of the season, and then they’ll announce that he suffered a freak injury and will have to miss the rest of the season.

      You just ruined my day (and my optimism). Thanks a lot…

    14. Glew

      DRed: That’s ridiculous, ll. What will happen is that they’ll announce that the rest worked fine, Melo will shoot poorly for the first few weeks of the season, and then they’ll announce that he suffered a freak injury and will have to miss the rest of the season.

      MAN i wish you were wrong but it’s the knicks thats how we do it

    15. johnlocke

      Actually given our history, Melo will be be delayed coming back due to recovering from the injury. Amare will break out as a super efficient scoring PF, the Knicks will be doing well, and then all drama will break out about how Melo is going to mess it all up… seems to be a recurring trend with this team. 4+1 always seems to equal 3 with us…Knicks Math.

      llcoolbp:
      Melo could be out 4-6 months if he needs surgery on that left shoulder. Knicks will let him rest and re-evaluate in 3 weeks. I think we all know how this story ends. Melo out till New years day. Knicks floundering. Oh well, I guess we really should have enjoyed this second round this year, because it’s tough to see a repeat 54 win season next year.

    16. Zanzibar

      johnno:
      I read yesterday’s thread and I just don’t understand the sentiment that the Knicks have to blow up their entire roster.

      I’m not all that pessimistic about the next couple of years. Maybe Amare will be able to stay healthy and Shump and Cope will expand their games. Still consider the scenario mentioned in that thread where Clips would give us Bledsoe/Jordan for Chandler. Now let’s say Pistons would give us Drummond/2014 draft pick/trade exception for Melo. All of a sudden we’ve got 3 young studs and oodles of cap space to boot (via trade exception). So short-term we would have Bledsoe/Shumpert/Drummond/Amare/Copeland/Jordan/Felton/Prigs?/Novak and 15+m in cap space all/part/none of which we could choose to use (e.g. Millsap might be an option). Through trade exception cap and expiring contracts, GG would have a lot of flexibility to pick and choose players over the next 2-3 years instead of having to grab whatever’s out there in 2015 (just like we did when we signed Amare). Just sayin’…doesn’t hurt to explore (btw Melo’s player option after this season would probably make Detroit think twice but hey you never know).

    17. KnickfaninNJ

      That’s not going to happen because Dolan wants stars so that he can sell tickets and make money and that’s a higher priority for him than anything else.

      Didn’t Dwight Howard also have a torn labrum? He was below par all year this year. That could happen to Melo too.

    18. thenamestsam

      Also worth pointing out that people spit balling trades in the offseason does not necessarily mean they want to blow the team up at all. It’s not like there’s a steady stream of actual Knicks news to talk about. Debating the merits of a fake trade and even coming down in favor of a specific fake trade isn’t really the same as saying the Knicks should tear everything down and start over.

    19. johnno

      Zanzibar: Now let’s say Pistons would give us Drummond/2014 draft pick/trade exception for Melo.

      All I can say about this is that I am happy that you are not calling the shots for the Knicks…

    20. Hubert

      johnlocke:
      Also Vogel’s rationale for pulling Hibbert only on the final 2 possessions was retarded — I think he overreacted because well because Bosh is Bosh. I don’t know if he would have had a similar reaction to Chris Copeland,

      But he did pull Hibbert when we played Copeland at the 5. It’s not a hypothetical.

      Problem was it didn’t happen until there were 55 seconds left in game 6.

      But in the final minute of a 4 point playoff game, Frank Vogel showed his hand. He didn’t trust Hibbert on defense when we had Copeland at the 5.

      He showed it again last night. He got burned badly and he won’t do it again, but it was a weakness waiting to be exploited. Had we played that card at the right time, we probably could have regained home court advantage before he learned his mistake.

    21. Hubert

      KnickfaninNJ: Why is it unpromising that he wants to stay in the NBA? I would have thought that was good news.

      He said he wanted to stay in the NBA, not with the Knicks. And it said his agent is looking for a $2 million salary. That’s something he should be able to get somewhere, but it’s more than we can offer.

      All we can offer him without using our mini-MLE is $988,872, a qualifying offer. That’s not likely to get it done.

    22. Hubert

      Ephus, maybe you can answer this if you’re around today.

      We can offer Kenyon Martin the vet’s minimum (whatever that is, let’s say it’s $1.5 mil) without having cap room or exceptions. If we wanted to offer him $3.0 mil, would that count as 1.5 for the vet’s min and 1.5 cuts into the mini-MLE?

      Same with Pablo. We can offer him slightly under $1mm without using exceptions. If we offered him $2mm would it only deplete our mini-MLE by $1mm?

    23. Z

      johnno:
      I read yesterday’s thread and I just don’t understand the sentiment that the Knicks have to blow up their entire roster.

      I think there is an advantage, both long term and short term, to getting younger. The oldest team in NBA history is going to be another year older next year. It’s easy to blame the medical staff for the injuries, but medical workers can only do so much with broken parts.

    24. thenamestsam

      It’s a little funny to me that all the analysts are obsessing over whether Hibbert should have been in on the last play when it’s really the second to last play that is much more egregious to me.

      The second to last play was just way too easy for Miami. They’re pretty much always going to be able to force a switch of a smaller defender onto Lebron unless you’re willing to concede a wide open 3, and without any rim protection it was a fait accompli that he was going to get a layup on that possession. George Hill had no chance. Without the clock as an ally I really think the Heat were almost certain to get a great shot there. But the clock changes everything.

      But the last play was a totally different kettle of fish. It seems that a lot of people are acting like it was a sure thing that they’d get a layup with no Hibbert in because that’s what started, but it was actually extremely unlikely I would argue, even with Hibbert out. How often do you see a guy even try to attack in a situation where the clock is at 2 seconds? That’s pretty much always a situation where a guy takes on dribble and a pull-up jumper. And it would have happened in this situation if George doesn’t overplay it (which I think happened specifically because he expected Lebron to continue his momentum towards the top of the key, face up and look for the jumper). Bad angle by George, amazing attack by Lebron (seriously he had a foot outside the 3 point line when he caught the ball and laid it in <2 seconds later) and the Heat get a layup but I really don't think that was a high probability outcome. If George takes a better angle Lebron takes one dribble left and shoots an extremely difficult pull-up and nobody even notices that Hibbert wasn't out there.

    25. ruruland

      Well, Vogel basically just called Woodson an idiot in Bergers CBS story today. Hoping someone will post.

    26. johnno

      Z: The oldest team in NBA history

      They’re only the oldest if you count three guys who almost never played — Sheed, Thomas and Camby — in the average. If you only count guys who played a lot (and who can be expected to play a lot next year), they weren’t even close to being the oldest team in the league this year, never mind oldest in history — off the top of my head, the Celtics, Lakers and Spurs were much older and, if you only look at starting lineup, the Nets were older. Even if they were, getting younger is not a goal unto itself, unless you also get better.

    27. johnno

      Z: the medical staff for the injuries, but medical workers can only do so much with broken parts.

      Melo, JR and Chandler, the three most important guys who were hurt, are not old or broken.

    28. BigBlueAL

      ruruland:
      Well, Vogel basically just called Woodson an idiot in Bergers CBS story today. Hoping someone will post.

      Just read this tweet from Berger (havent read the actual article yet).

      Vogel on Miami defense: “They had a more intelligent plan against Hibbert than New York did and we’ve got to adjust to it.”

    29. Die_Hard_Knick_Fan

      I love Carmelo and the Knicks, but Lebron showed last night why he was the front-runner for MVP and why his game is much better than Anthony’s. Lebron is a PASSER also. When the heat were struggling last night Lebron started making great passes and got his team going. For most of the playoffs Melo was trying to get himself going to help the team win. I don’t think he was doing it selfishly, that’s just his game. Lebron could have easily been the scoring champ this year, but he was being floor leader and playing with his team and getting them involved and reeling them all in if they weren’t playing right. That’s how Melo needs to evolve his game.

    30. er

      BigBlueAL: Just read this tweet from Berger (havent read the actual article yet).Vogel on Miami defense: “They had a more intelligent plan against Hibbert than New York did and we’ve got to adjust to it.”

      second time this week this website has made me LOL. Thanks guys

    31. Juany8

      massive:
      So now JR played in the playoffs with a minor fluid build up.

      So that’s a torn labrum, a bulging disk in a neck, and a bum knee. Does Iman Shumpert’s face need to melt off before we fire this training staff? Our team’s injuries always seem to linger and last forever. I’m seriously tired of the ineptitude because it is clearly costing us wins. 3 of our 4 most important players were playing hurt and there was seemingly nothing the training staff did to make it better but “here, wear this protective padding” or “let’s just put some ice on it and see if that makes it better.” They need to go.

      Haven’t commented much since the loss, but I find it weird that this is just being ignored. Most of the major players are injured every year and it just so happens to be a coincidence? You expect some of the old guys to get injured, you don’t expect them ALL to be injured. You expect that you’ll have some minor injuries affecting your main players, not significant injuries to every single one every year. The Knicks might have the worst medical staff in the fucking league, they can’t even prevent the players from getting the damn flu.

    32. er

      Die_Hard_Knick_Fan: I love Carmelo and the Knicks, but Lebron showed last night why he was the front-runner for MVP and why his game is much better than Anthony’s. Lebron is a PASSER also. When the heat were struggling last night Lebron started making great passes and got his team going. For most of the playoffs Melo was trying to get himself going to help the team win. I don’t think he was doing it selfishly, that’s just his game. Lebron could have easily been the scoring champ this year, but he was being floor leader and playing with his team and getting them involved and reeling them all in if they weren’t playing right. That’s how Melo needs to evolve his game.

      I stand corrected, third time I LOL’d. This might be the dumbest post ive seen in a while. MELO IS NOT LEBRON. KD IS NOT LEBRON. jeez

    33. Juany8

      Die_Hard_Knick_Fan:
      I love Carmelo and the Knicks, but Lebron showed last night why he was the front-runner for MVP and why his game is much better than Anthony’s. Lebron is a PASSER also. When the heat were struggling last night Lebron started making great passes and got his team going. For most of the playoffs Melo was trying to get himself going to help the team win. I don’t think he was doing it selfishly, that’s just his game. Lebron could have easily been the scoring champ this year, but he was being floor leader and playing with his team and getting them involved and reeling them all in if they weren’t playing right. That’s how Melo needs to evolve his game.

      To be fair, I think if Melo was passing to Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, and Battier instead of JR, Kidd, and Chandler, he’d be much more willing to pass. But yea, the argument has never been that Melo is as good as Lebron. I think I’d take just Lebron on a team over KD and Chris Paul for the same total money.

    34. Juany8

      Z: I think there is an advantage, both long term and short term, to getting younger. The oldest team in NBA history is going to be another year older next year. It’s easy to blame the medical staff for the injuries, but medical workers can only do so much with broken parts.

      Again, you’re not surprised when the old guys have injuries, you’re surprised when they’re ALL injured. Or when Felton, Shumpert, Melo, and Chandler are all missing a bunch of time or playing horribly through injuries. If anything, it makes JR more valuable since he’s the only freaking Knick that’s actually stayed on the court these past 2 seasons, and even he supposedly had injuries in the playoffs. The Knicks didn’t give up anything to get all the old guys, and it should be possible to make up the loss of guys who barely played all season. Jason kidd is more problematic since he was actually an important part of the Knicks success this year, but if Pablo stays he can replace a lot of what Kidd does, and it should be possible to find a backup PG from somewhere. Would be quite amusing if they somehow ended up with Baron Davis

    35. johnno

      Juany8: and it should be possible to find a backup PG from somewhere

      Hasn’t this already been taken care of? I thought that Chris Smith was going to be that guy…

    36. yellowboy90

      If they knew about the fluid in the Boston series then the KNicks medical staff is the dumbest out there. All that time between games and they did not elect to drain the fluid? Especially after he got suspended.

    37. er

      yellowboy90: If they knew about the fluid in the Boston series then the KNicks medical staff is the dumbest out there. All that time between games and they did not elect to drain the fluid? Especially after he got suspended.

      He probably complained and they told him to walk it off

    38. Z

      johnno: Melo, JR and Chandler, the three most important guys who were hurt, are not old or broken.

      It’s not the years, it’s the mileage…

      Anthony: 28,000 career minutes (almost as many as both Thomas and Camby)

      Chandler: 24,500 career minutes (with a history of injuries throughout his career)

      JR Smith: 18,000 career minutes (with a broken head)

      So, yeah, Anthony and Chandler, (and obviously Amar’e, Kidd, and Camby too), representing a $62,000,000 investment, are at the point where their bodies are in decline and the grind of an NBA season gets heavier and heavier. To expect anything less than a lot of missed games from this bunch going forward is wishful thinking, which is fine, if there’s nothing that can be done to change it, but if there is a move or two to be made to bring in younger personnel, I would hope it would be considered by MSG brass.

      Obviously, you can’t trade Kidd or Camby for youth, and Amar’e isn’t going anywhere, and neither is Anthony, so that leaves you with Chandler, who has value, both real and perceived, to think about moving in an attempt to grow younger. Grunfeld traded Oakley for Camby in ’98 with a two-pronged goal: get younger, while at the same time staying competitive. If a deal that accomplishes both come up for the Knicks, I would hope that they would consider it.

    39. er

      Z: It’s not the years, it’s the mileage…Anthony: 28,000 career minutes (almost as many as both Thomas and Camby)Chandler: 24,500 career minutes (with a history of injuries throughout his career)JR Smith: 18,000 career minutes (with a broken head)So, yeah, Anthony and Chandler, (and obviously Amar’e, Kidd, and Camby too), representing a $62,000,000 investment, are at the point where their bodies are in decline and the grind of an NBA season gets heavier and heavier. To expect anything less than a lot of missed games from this bunch going forward is wishful thinking, which is fine, if there’s nothing that can be done to change it, but if there is a move or two to be made to bring in younger personnel, I would hope it would be considered by MSG brass.Obviously, you can’t trade Kidd or Camby for youth, and Amar’e isn’t going anywhere, and neither is Anthony, so that leaves you with Chandler, who has value, both real and perceived, to think about moving in an attempt to grow younger. Grunfeld traded Oakley for Camby in ’98 with a two-pronged goal: get younger, while at the same time staying competitive. If a deal that accomplishes both come up for the Knicks, I would hope that they would consider it.

      I honestly dont understand the point you are trying to make. Getting rid of these guys for someone younger, just cause?

    40. ephus

      I’m not down with the broadside attack on the Knick training staff. How do we know which way the causality flows. I could easily imagine a scenario where they were heroes for keeping an injured ‘Melo on the court despite a torn labrum. The fact that ‘Melo was strongest in the first and third quarters MIGHT be the product of pre-game and halftime therapy helping him to get loose in a way that he could not sustain for 48 minutes.

      My point is: WE DO NOT KNOW. Let people who just want to make noise post at ESPN. I’d like some evidence that the Knicks training staff is worse than the average staff at keeping players on the floor after similar injuries. (BTW, Shumpert’s relatively rapid return from major knee surgery is a data point in favor of the Knicks staff).

    41. Z

      er: I honestly dont understand the point you are trying to make. Getting rid of these guys for someone younger, just cause?

      I honestly can’t help you, except to suggest that you reread the post, as well as the previous conversation it is a part of, which dates back to mid-afternoon yesterday.

    42. er

      Z: I honestly can’t help you, except to suggest that you reread the post, as well as the previous conversation it is a part of, which dates back to mid-afternoon yesterday.

      i did and i dont get it? younger players for players whose contracts all expire in a couple years doesnt make sense

    43. nicos

      Hubert: But he did pull Hibbert when we played Copeland at the 5.It’s not a hypothetical.

      Problem was it didn’t happen until there were 55 seconds left in game 6.

      It was a six point game when Copeland came in and in a six point game with less than a minute left you definitely don’t want to give up a three hence taking out Hibbert- hell, knowing the Knicks were looking for a three he might have taken him out even if Copeland didn’t come in. Does Vogel do that in any other situation? I really doubt it. Maybe Woodson should have tried it in game 3 or 4 but I’d say the chances of success were pretty slim- Copeland showed the ability to bang in the post a bit on defense late in the year; unfortunately he was godawful at every other other aspect of defense. He grabbed a whopping 3.5 boards per 36 in the playoffs- Chandler even at half speed grabbed 9.1. I’d say the chances that Cope’s offense would have off-set the huge disadvantage he presents at the five on the other end weren’t good at all. Given the final outcome of the series, you’d have to say it was at least worth a shot but I can’t kill Woodson over that- I’d say Kidd’s minutes, over-relience on a sub-par JR, and trying to go big with Martin at the four were all significantly worse blunders.

    44. johnno

      Z: Anthony: 28,000 career minutes (almost as many as both Thomas and Camby)
      Chandler: 24,500 career minutes (with a history of injuries throughout his career)
      JR Smith: 18,000 career minutes (with a broken head)

      Pierce – 40,000, Joe Johnson – 33,000, LeBron – 30,000, Wade — 25,000, Dwight – 25,000, just to name a few, and then there are Kobe – 45,000, Nash – 38,000, Dirk – 40,000 and Duncan – 40,000. What’s your point?

    45. johnno

      Z: so that leaves you with Chandler, who has value, both real and perceived, to think about moving in an attempt to grow younger.

      By the way, I’m not dead set against trading Chandler if the right deal came along (like if the Bulls called up and offered Noah) but I don’t think that there is any reason for the Knicks to be shopping him. By the way, before he got hurt, people on this board were talking about how Chandler is one of the most efficient offensive players in the league and the NBA coaches (all of whom know a whole lot more about basketball than we do and all of whom watch a whole lot more tape of everyone’s games than we do) voted him as first team all defense. Maybe he’s a pretty good player??

    46. johnno

      ephus: I could easily imagine a scenario where they were heroes for keeping an injured ‘Melo on the court despite a torn labrum.

      I agree completely. And Melo doesn’t get nearly enough credit for being as tough as he is. When you saw him reach for a ball with his left hand and then screw up his face in pain repeatedly, it was obvious that he was hurting A LOT. I think that it was incredible that he played as well as he did.

    47. nicos

      johnno: I agree completely.And Melo doesn’t get nearly enough credit for being as tough as he is.When you saw him reach for a ball with his left hand and then screw up his face in pain repeatedly, it was obvious that he was hurting A LOT.I think that it was incredible that he played as well as he did.

      Really tough to finish at the rim when going to your off hand isn’t an option. I’d love for somebody with synergy to take a look at his drives and see how often that might have made a difference.

    48. Brian Cronin

      Haven’t commented much since the loss, but I find it weird that this is just being ignored. Most of the major players are injured every year and it just so happens to be a coincidence? You expect some of the old guys to get injured, you don’t expect them ALL to be injured. You expect that you’ll have some minor injuries affecting your main players, not significant injuries to every single one every year. The Knicks might have the worst medical staff in the fucking league, they can’t even prevent the players from getting the damn flu.

      While in general, I agree that training staffs make a major difference, I dunno what they could have done to stop the Chandler or Melo injuries. There’s nothing you can do to fix a bulging disc or a torn labrum. You just have to wait for the first thing to go away and either wait or do surgery on the second thing.

      The JR stuff, though, does sound just absolutely moronic.

      By the way, I continue to be irked at the whole “don’t talk about injuries during the playoffs but then as soon as the playoffs are over reveal that Players X, Y and Z were all playing hurt.” Why not reveal it at the time? What is the point of keeping it a secret?

    49. jon abbey

      johnno: Maybe he’s a pretty good player??

      he is if he’s the guy we saw in the 2011 playoffs for Dallas, but that guy seems to be around less and less these days. he’s “efficient” on offense because he’s unbelievably limited, and teams took away his one option more and more as the season went on, and as for being voted first-team all-defense, Ray Felton got votes for the All-NBA teams today.

      I can’t say it enough, the cult of efficiency is killing basketball analysis. while I was watching last night, this scenario occurred to me:

      a guy (let’s call him Melo) gets the ball with 2-3 seconds left on the 24, no easy shot available, tightly covered as are all of his teammates. so there are two possibilities here:

      1) he tries to make a few moves, can’t get a shot off, and the 24 second clock expires while he is still holding the ball. the team is charged with a turnover, the individual is assigned no blame for this.

      2) he tries to make a few moves, gets a desperation shot off. now by doing this, he has actually helped his team avoid the sure turnover, and there are three possible outcomes, let’s say a 20 percent chance of it going in, a 40 percent chance of it missing but hitting the rim, and a 40 percent chance of an air ball. the 1st option is correctly credited in the box score, the 2nd option the player is actually penalized for a play that helped his team (as they have maybe a 30 percent chance of getting an offensive rebound off the miss), and the 3rd option is a bit more nebulous, as he has tried to help his team at the cost of his own numbers, but has failed.

      the middle option is the important one, though, and this happens at least a few times per game. one more reason why it’s hilarious for anyone to be so dogmatic about basketball stats, as almost all of the numbers we have are just riddled with issues.

    50. nicos

      Brian Cronin:
      By the way, I continue to be irked at the whole “don’t talk about injuries during the playoffs but then as soon as the playoffs are over reveal that Players X, Y and Z were all playing hurt.” Why not reveal it at the time? What is the point of keeping it a secret?

      Because then savvy vets like Garnett say “Oh Melo’s shoulder is hurt? Maybe I’ll just yank his arm a bit and see what happens.” If you know JR has fluid built up on one of his knees you force him to that side repeatedly etc… No need to give the other team any hint of an advantage unless you have to.

    51. max fisher-cohen

      er: i did and i dont get it? younger players for players whose contracts all expire in a couple years doesnt make sense

      His point is essentially that NBA players aren’t immortal. A lot of people on this board (and apparently upstairs at MSG) seem to believe they are. Look at tyson chandler’s draft class for a list of players who have played similar minutes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NBA_Draft

      There were essentially 21 players who saw rotation minutes for extended time in that draft: Brown, Chandler, Gasol, Curry, J. Richardson, Battier, J. Johnson, Jefferson, Murphy, Steven Hunter, Radmanovic, Jason Collins, Z-Bo, Haywood, G. Wallace, Dalembert, Tinsley, Parker, Arenas, Watson, Okur.

      Here are the players who have declined to the point that they likely won’t make a roster next season: Brown, Curry, Murphy, Hunter, Radmanovic, Collins, Tinsley, Arenas, Watson, Okur.

      Here are the guys who are WAY worse than at their peak: Richardson, Jefferson, Haywood, G. Wallace.

      Here are the guys who have had notable declines: Battier, Joe Johnson, Dalembert

      Here are the players still peaking: Chandler, Randolph, Parker

      Chandler is among the last of the Mohicans here. Yeah, he’s younger, but first of all. NBA minutes seem to matter more than age (which is why a lot of high school draft picks are done by 30), Chandler is deeply reliant on his athleticism, and Chandler has a history of injury problems.

      All that adds up in my book to Chandler being set for big drop offs in the next year or two.

      A smart and proactive management team would trade him while his value is still high, just as they should have traded Stoudemire while he was still near his peak.

    52. er

      jon abbey: he is if he’s the guy we saw in the 2011 playoffs for Dallas, but that guy seems to be around less and less these days. he’s “efficient” on offense because he’s unbelievably limited, and teams took away his one option more and more as the season went on, and as for being voted first-team all-defense, Ray Felton got votes for the All-NBA teams today. I can’t say it enough, the cult of efficiency is killing basketball analysis. while I was watching last night, this scenario occurred to me:a guy (let’s call him Melo) gets the ball with 2-3 seconds left on the 24, no easy shot available, tightly covered as are all of his teammates. so there are two possibilities here:1) he tries to make a few moves, can’t get a shot off, and the 24 second clock expires while he is still holding the ball. the team is charged with a turnover, the individual is assigned no blame for this.2) he tries to make a few moves, gets a desperation shot off. now by doing this, he has actually helped his team avoid the sure turnover, and there are three possible outcomes, let’s say a 20 percent chance of it going in, a 40 percent chance of it missing but hitting the rim, and a 40 percent chance of an air ball. the 1st option is correctly credited in the box score, the 2nd option the player is actually penalized for a play that helped his team (as they have maybe a 30 percent chance of getting an offensive rebound off the miss), and the 3rd option is a bit more nebulous, as he has tried to help his team at the cost of his own numbers, but has failed.the middle option is the important one, though, and this happens at least a few times per game. one more reason why it’s hilarious for anyone to be so dogmatic about basketball stats, as almost all of the numbers we have are just riddled with issues.

      Totally agree

    53. Brian Cronin

      Because then savvy vets like Garnett say “Oh Melo’s shoulder is hurt? Maybe I’ll just yank his arm a bit and see what happens.” If you know JR has fluid built up on one of his knees you force him to that side repeatedly etc… No need to give the other team any hint of an advantage unless you have to.

      But KG was already going to make a savvy, gritty vet move on Melo’s shoulder, as everyone knew it was hurt, it was just a distinction of what kind of injury it was.

      But yeah, otherwise, fair enough, I get your point.

    54. jon abbey

      Kenyon Martin was picked up off the streett and was an immediate improvement over Chandler, Chandler got abused head to head in both playoff series by Garnett and Hibbert, how in the hell is he “still peaking”? honestly if we could go back and play those two playoff series with Earl Barron in Chandler’s place, we might have done better.

      I’m sorry for repeating myself ad nauseum, but I really question what people were watching when it came to Chandler this year. even before his injury/strep throat, his rim defense was non-existent more often than not.

    55. er

      max fisher-cohen: His point is essentially that NBA players aren’t immortal. A lot of people on this board (and apparently upstairs at MSG) seem to believe they are. Look at tyson chandler’s draft class for a list of players who have played similar minutes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NBA_DraftThere were essentially 21 players who saw rotation minutes for extended time in that draft: Brown, Chandler, Gasol, Curry, J. Richardson, Battier, J. Johnson, Jefferson, Murphy, Steven Hunter, Radmanovic, Jason Collins, Z-Bo, Haywood, G. Wallace, Dalembert, Tinsley, Parker, Arenas, Watson, Okur.Here are the players who have declined to the point that they likely won’t make a roster next season: Brown, Curry, Murphy, Hunter, Radmanovic, Collins, Tinsley, Arenas, Watson, Okur.Here are the guys who are WAY worse than at their peak: Richardson, Jefferson, Haywood, G. Wallace.Here are the guys who have had notable declines: Battier, Joe Johnson, DalembertHere are the players still peaking: Chandler, Randolph, ParkerChandler is among the last of the Mohicans here. Yeah, he’s younger, but first of all. NBA minutes seem to matter more than age (which is why a lot of high school draft picks are done by 30), Chandler is deeply reliant on his athleticism, and Chandler has a history of injury problems.All that adds up in my book to Chandler being set for big drop offs in the next year or two.A smart and proactive management team would trade him while his value is still high, just as they should have traded Stoudemire while he was still near his peak.

      I agree with you on chandler but he had JR and melo in there as well. Melos game is the least reliant on athleticism for any star player in the league sans the afore mentioned ZBO,

    56. er

      jon abbey: Kenyon Martin was picked up off the streett and was an immediate improvement over Chandler, Chandler got abused head to head in both playoff series by Garnett and Hibbert, how in the hell is he “still peaking”? honestly if we could go back and play those two playoff series with Earl Barron in Chandler’s place, we might have done better. I’m sorry for repeating myself ad nauseum, but I really question what people were watching when it came to Chandler this year. even before his injury/strep throat, his rim defense was non-existent more often than not.

      yea his first team all D was a joke

    57. thenamestsam

      jon abbey:
      Kenyon Martin was picked up off the streett and was an immediate improvement over Chandler, Chandler got abused head to head in both playoff series by Garnett and Hibbert, how in the hell is he “still peaking”? honestly if we could go back and play those two playoff series with Earl Barron in Chandler’s place, we might have done better.

      I’m sorry for repeating myself ad nauseum, but I really question what people were watching when it came to Chandler this year. even before his injury/strep throat, his rim defense was non-existent more often than not.

      Regardless of whether you agree with still peaking (and I’m with you, he has fallen off big time already) his reputation still puts him up there pretty quickly. I mean he did make first team all-defense this year. You can get good value for him and it seems like regardless of where people rate him today it seems like a lot of people expect him to fall to a fairly low level. I think trading Chandler would be a good move from a value standpoint.

    58. max fisher-cohen

      consider some recent trades of aging but solid starters for youth:

      Blazers trade Gerald Wallace for pick that became Damian Lillard

      Orlando Magic trade JJ Redick for Tobias Harris

      Rockets trade Marcus Camby for 2 2nd rd picks, Toney Douglas, Harrellson and Jerome Jordan

      Rockets trade Kevin Martin for James Harden and 2 protected 1st rd picks

      Nuggets trade Nene for Javale McGee

      Celtics trade Kendrick Perkins for Jeff Green

      Bucks trade Fabricio Oberto for Amir Johnson

      Nets trade Eduardo Najera for Kris Humphries

      It’s hard to find examples where the team that brought in the younger player lost out. The McGee trade is the only one I see as even arguable.

    59. ruruland

      Good points mfc. And it just seems from Ty’s comments that he wants out.

      So, outside of Jordan/Bledsoe, any good ideas?

    60. Glew

      jon abbey:
      I can’t say it enough, the cult of efficiency is killing basketball analysis. while I was watching last night, this scenario occurred to me:

      a guy (let’s call him Melo) gets the ball with 2-3 seconds left on the 24, no easy shot available, tightly covered as are all of his teammates. so there are two possibilities here:

      1) he tries to make a few moves, can’t get a shot off, and the 24 second clock expires while he is still holding the ball. the team is charged with a turnover, the individual is assigned no blame for this.

      2) he tries to make a few moves, gets a desperation shot off. now by doing this, he has actually helped his team avoid the sure turnover, and there are three possible outcomes, let’s say a 20 percent chance of it going in, a 40 percent chance of it missing but hitting the rim, and a 40 percent chance of an air ball. the 1st option is correctly credited in the box score, the 2nd option the player is actually penalized for a play that helped his team (as they have maybe a 30 percent chance of getting an offensive rebound off the miss), and the 3rd option is a bit more nebulous, as he has tried to help his team at the cost of his own numbers, but has failed.

      the middle option is the important one, though, and this happens at least a few times per game. one more reason why it’s hilarious for anyone to be so dogmatic about basketball stats, as almost all of the numbers we have are just riddled with issues.

      You could also take it a step further and add in the 40 foot shots taken at the end of each quarter that have nearly a zero chance of going in. It seems like these scenarios could easily be applied to JR as he was often the go to guy for hoisting tough end of clock shots. Not that it would in any way make up for his playoff performance.

    61. max fisher-cohen

      er: I agree with you on chandler but he had JR and melo in there as well. Melos game is the least reliant on athleticism for any star player in the league sans the afore mentioned ZBO,

      I agree with you that Melo is less dependent than most wing players, but he did struggle badly with that knee injury this season. If his knee always felt like that, I think he’d have a hard time.

      Smith is only 27. I’m not worried about him being here through 2015. Through 2017 though I think he could end up being a bad value. He’s not exactly a smart player. I can’t see him adapting well to limited athleticism.

      Neither are bad gambles though if you want to continue pushing (praying?) this team can compete for a title in the short term.

    62. jon abbey

      the problem with bringing in a guy at the 2 or 3 is you already have Melo, Shumpert and hopefully Smith there. are you letting Smith walk under these scenarios?

    63. thenamestsam

      Hickson is a FA, no?

      Yeah I’d be looking less for a wing and more for a point assuming we think Kidd is totally washed up and Prigs is maybe gone.

      What about Chandler and our first to Toronto for Amir Johnson and Kyle Landry? Not sure if Toronto would be willing to move either of those guys so soon after dealing the guys they were competing for minutes with in Davis and Calderon, but with a new GM coming in who knows? I’m assuming Toronto wants to compete now with Gay potentially becoming a FA after next year and they might be enticed by a 1st rounder having lost theirs to OKC. From our end I think Lowry could really blossom under Woodson with a veteran team, and I like Johnson as the heir to Kenyon in a sense. A little undersized as a center but solid defender and a mobile guy who would fit with what we’re trying to do. Thoughts?

    64. DRed

      Jon, if you look at the shot clock stats for Carmelo, for example, he shot much better with the clock winding down than he did when shooting early. If he’s getting penalized for having to take tough, last second shots it doesn’t really show up in the data. Melo was much worse with 11-15 seconds off the clock than he was after 21 or more seconds had gone by.

    65. Zanzibar

      jon abbey: he is if he’s the guy we saw in the 2011 playoffs for Dallas, but that guy seems to be around less and less these days. he’s “efficient” on offense because he’s unbelievably limited, and teams took away his one option more and more as the season went on

      In the Mav’s chip year, Chandler’s WS/48 in the playoffs was .188; his WS/48 for this year’s playoffs was .160, 28th highest. He ranks higher than Duncan, Paul George, Mike Conley, Wade just to name a few. Given most of us have watched all the Knick playoff games, is there anyone who would argue that advanced stats properly evaluate Chandler? And then we have the Dwight Effect study based on based on video analysis which showed him to be a mediocre interior defender. I think his chief strengths are offensive rebounding, pick setting, and some types of help defense. One of my first posts on this board about a year ago argued he’s overrated and I ranked him #10 among centers (including P Gasol and Garnett as Cs). I still think that’s about right. If we don’t trade him, I hope he practices his outside shooting and develops a single post move. He does seem to be more engaged in contract years so with one a couple of years away maybe he will be more focused.

    66. ruruland

      DRed:
      Jon, if you look at the shot clock stats for Carmelo, for example, he shot much better with the clock winding down than he did when shooting early.If he’s getting penalized for having to take tough, last second shots it doesn’t really show up in the data. Melo was much worse with11-15 seconds off the clock than he was after 21 or more seconds had gone by.

      Uh, no.

      http://www.82games.com/1213/12NYK11.HTM

    67. Zanzibar

      “Now let’s say Pistons would give us Drummond/2014 draft pick/trade exception for Melo.”

      johnno: All I can say about this is that I am happy that you are not calling the shots for the Knicks…

      I’m not sure you’re understanding my scenario. First Drummond would be in the 2nd year of a Shump-like contract. In his rookie year he put up numbers comparable to the rookie seasons of the greatest centers albeit at lower usage. Because of his contract we’re not committed to the guy if he bombs but we’ve likely got him long-term if he’s really good. We also get a first round pick in what is projected to be a strong draft. What I think you’re missing is that we would have about 18m of cap space available this off-season (via trade exception) and I believe, depending on the timing of any deal, part of next off-season as well. In Melo deal, Denver got one first-round pick, Gallinari, W. Chandler, Felton, Mozgov. People think Denver did very well in that deal. We’d have that 1st round pick, a promising rookie on a favorable contract, and 18m which I believe GG could parlay into better players than those 4 Denver got. Fair enough if you just don’t want to trade Melo, but I’m not sure how you could think my proposal would not be reasonable.

    68. ruruland

      Zanzibar: In the Mav’s chip year, Chandler’s WS/48 in the playoffs was .188; his WS/48 for this year’s playoffs was .160, 28th highest. He ranks higher than Duncan, Paul George, Mike Conley, Wade just to name a few. Given most of us have watched all the Knick playoff games, is there anyone who would argue that advanced stats properly evaluate Chandler? And then we have the Dwight Effect study based on based on video analysis which showed him to be a mediocre interior defender. I think his chief strengths are offensive rebounding, pick setting, and some types of help defense. One of my first posts on this board about a year ago argued he’s overrated and I ranked him #10 among centers (including P Gasol and Garnett as Cs). I still think that’s about right. If we don’t trade him, I hope he practices his outside shooting and develops a single post move. He does seem to be more engaged in contract years so with one a couple of years away maybe he will be more focused.

      It showed him worse than mediocre, actually.

      Defense was better with him off the floor in general.

      You’re right, his value is in screen setting, offensive rebounding and finishing lobs.

      His value on defense is contesting outside shots and harassing ball-handlers, which does not complement the Knicks defense at all.

      He defends like an active power forward.

      Hibbert is his complete opposite and we see how much more effective it is to build around him.

    69. nicos

      I don’t have a problem shopping Chandler to see what you can get but he’s only a year removed from being the best player on the team- his defense was phenomenal last year. It clearly wasn’t this year and I think he’s a guy where the line between being great and mediocre is thinner than most. That said, this team is going to be broken up in two years anyway and given the fact that they made it to the 6th game in the second round with none of their top 3 scorers nor their best defender healthy I don’t think you just start making trades to shake things up. I’m fairly hopeful that a summer off without any Team USA commitments will get Chandler back to where he needs to be physically and if you can re-sign Martin so that you have a chance to get Chandler’s minutes down to around 28-30 a game I’d say the odds that he’ll outperform any combination of players/picks you might get for him remains pretty good. Still, I’d definitely see what the market for him looks like- especially after I think his locker value has probably taken a hit due to his comments during and after the Pacers series.

    70. ruruland

      The real question is, can you approximate Chandler’s value with a player that can duplicate his range, one that is a better rebounder and paint protector, or by going with a full-time 5-out approach?

      IF so, then trading Chandler to add a lot of value elsewhere might be smart.

      I think Kenyon Martin can at least somewhat replicate the diving, screen-setting and defense.

      Camby can provide superior defense and rebounding.

      And the Knicks might have been at their best with Copeland at center.

      You don’t get all of them at once, and maybe the Knicks coach isn’t great at leveraging these skills based on match-up, but you;d have them.

      Wouldn’t Eric Bledsoe, given continued improve, provide more value (by himself) than Chandler could given the other options taking his minutes?

      In other words, 30 minutes Bledsoe, 15 extra minutes Camby, Martin and 20 extra minutes Copeland >> 30 minutes Chandler

    71. yellowboy90

      If the knicks could get Jordan and a first it would be ideal only to ship Jordan to a third team. Blazers, Mavs or Utah for S&T of Favors and Millsap. I think Favors can duplicate what Chandler does defensively and still has room to grow offensively.

      I think trading Chandler should be a plan.

    72. DRed

      ruru, that’s where I got my numbers from. With 21 or more seconds expired Melo shot with an efg of .500. When between 11 and 15 seconds expired his efg was a robust .211. That’s, uh, just what I described.

    73. ruruland

      Zanzibar:
      “Now let’s say Pistons would give us Drummond/2014 draft pick/trade exception for Melo.”

      I’m not sure you’re understanding my scenario. First Drummond would be in the 2nd year of a Shump-like contract. In his rookie year he put up numbers comparable to the rookie seasons of the greatest centers albeit at lower usage. Because of his contract we’re not committed to the guy if he bombs but we’ve likely got him long-term if he’s really good. We also get a first round pick in what is projected to be a strong draft. What I think you’re missing is that we would have about 18m of cap space available this off-season (via trade exception) and I believe, depending on the timing of any deal, part of next off-season as well. In Melo deal, Denver got one first-round pick, Gallinari, W. Chandler, Felton, Mozgov. People think Denver did very well in that deal. We’d have that 1st round pick, a promising rookie on a favorable contract, and 18m which I believe GG could parlay into better players than those 4 Denver got. Fair enough if you just don’t want to trade Melo, but I’m not sure how you could think my proposal would not be reasonable.

      And then you’re fully shifting your timeline to 2015 as a starting point. It would make no sense for the Pistons to try to acquire Melo right now. He’d postpone their rebuild by making them better.

    74. Brian Cronin

      I don’t think you’re getting Bledsoe for Chandler. But sure, if you could, then that’d be a fine guy to get (provided Camby can actually play next year, of course).

    75. ruruland

      DRed:
      ruru, that’s where I got my numbers from.With 21 or more seconds expired Melo shot with an efg of .500.When between 11 and 15 seconds expired his efg was a robust .211.That’s, uh, just what I described.

      Uh, where did you get your numbers from?

      There’s now way Melo shot .211 in any shot clock scenario. That makes zero sense.

      Again, re-posted, here are his shooting splits by shot clock time.

      http://www.82games.com/1213/12NYK11.HTM

    76. ruruland

      DRed is looking at “clutch” statistics at the bottom of the page, not the aggregate season numbers. How could you honestly think any player with Melo’s shot volume could shoot .211 over a full season midway through the shot clock?

      Absurd.

    77. thenamestsam

      Looks like DRed is looking at the shot clock statistics from crunch time only, which I don’t think is the right number. The sample sizes on that have to be miniscule. But if I’m reading it right Melo’s shooting numbers with <10 on the clock were actually better (eFG of .542) then they were in any other situation, and they got progressively worse with more time on the clock.

      yellowboy90:
      If the knicks could get Jordan and a first it would be ideal only to ship Jordan to a third team. Blazers, Mavs or Utah for S&T of Favors and Millsap. I think Favors can duplicate what Chandler does defensively and still has room to grow offensively.

      I think trading Chandler should be a plan.

      Favors is pretty awesome and still has monster potential. You couldn’t get close to touching him with Jordan. Or Chandler for that matter.

    78. Brian Cronin

      Chandler definitely has value in the league, so I am not necessarily against trading him, especially if Camby is, indeed, healthy.

      They’re just not getting top of the line young guys like Bledsoe or Favors. Something along the lines of Matthews/Hickson is closer to realistic (Hickson can’t be acquired with another guy, but you know what I mean – that level of talent).

    79. ruruland

      DRed:
      poor reading comprehension?my bad

      it happens…

      It’s basically an off-shoot of the shot distribution argument.

      It’s always been obvious that if Melo were to cut out a significant chunk of his isolations, in which he leads the league in total volume, he would see a fairly dramatic rise in efficiency (it’s already quite good) while still maintaining really high usage. Melo’s Synergy numbers show him to be elite in a wide variety of offensive categories at above average volumes.

      In other words, as people like Matt Moore point out, he can create or be created really efficient looks pretty consistently.

      But does that benefit the team if he took Durant’s good apples approach?

      How many of Melo’s isolations occur in place of a Ray Felton mid-range jumper off a pick and rolll or in place of some wild off-the dribble shot from Jason Kidd, or a heave from Tyson Chandler.

      You get the point.

      I’d say a fairly significant portion of Melo’s isolation shots are substitutes for poor shot creation around him.

      There’s also a significant portion of Melo isolations that are set-ups for double-teams.

      So, while Melo may take 5 isolation shots while only making two, he may have created 5 doubles or semi-doubles whereby the Knicks get 3 out of 5 wide open threes.

      But you don’t get those open threes without the threat of Melo scoring in isolation, which means he has to attempt to score.

      So, yes, anyone who argues that usage and efficiency aren’t correlated isn’t looking at the numbers properly.

      Players generally don’t change roles because of skills limitations, which means the numbers stay fairly constant, but it doesn’t change the fact the low usage, low skill players create a deficit that must be made up elsewhere — often resulting in a higher proportion of challenging shots.

    80. ruruland

      To me, a medium usage distributor pg, along with someone who does a solid job protecting the rim and rebounding like Marcus Camby, would make a lot of sense around Amar’e and Melo.

      There would be less need for Chandler’s screen setting with Amar’e.

      You have two great shot and double-team creators. Both guys who can also play very well out of continuity plays, both can play inside-out.

      Amar’e would cut down on Melo’s isolations with deep post-ups, while Melo could cut down on Amar’e isolations.

      People say, well, why didn’t it work before.

      Well, for the first full year the Knicks lacked a pick and roll pg. And it was only this year Amar’e developed his post-game.

      Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony both set their career highs in efficiency and career lows in usage playing alongside each other.

      If the Nuggets had a team that could shoot a lick around them (Anthony Carter at pg), they probably win 60 games.

      Melo also hadn’t developed pick and roll skills or a reliable 3-pt shot.

      Amar’e would be younger than Iverson was that year, as well. It was a hell of a duo with a generally lacking supporting cast offensively playing in a conference where 50 wins got you the eight seed.

    81. Zanzibar

      ruruland: And then you’re fully shifting your timeline to 2015 as a starting point. It would make no sense for the Pistons to try to acquire Melo right now. He’d postpone their rebuild by making them better.

      The Pistons would be looking to inject some life into a moribund franchise. Melo and Monroe would be their core around which they would add pieces. Stuckey and Villanueva are expiring contracts at the end of 13-14 season so they would have some trade chips and cap. Pistons would be gambling Melo might decide to stay if they extend or re-sign him at the max and present a plan which suggests Detroit gives him as much a chance to win a chip as any other place he might go. That Melo player option at the end of this season would scare me if I were in the Detroit FO. But Brooklyn rolled the dice with DWill, so who knows.

      BTW I am the one who raised the Bledsoe/Jordan for Chandler as a possibility. Note I’m not sure I would do that or this Melo trade. I think the organization needs to evaluate how competitive we will be over the next couple of years with the current roster and health issues are paramount in that process. If you could assure me that Tyson would be Mavs Tyson and is not on the decline, that Amare would play well for 30 mpg through the playoffs, I would say let’s stand pat and go for it. I don’t have enough medical expertise to make an informed decision in that regard.

    82. ruruland

      Zanzibar: The Pistons would be looking to inject some life into a moribund franchise. Melo and Monroe would be their core around which they would add pieces. Stuckey and Villanueva are expiring contracts at the end of 13-14 season so they would have some trade chips and cap. Pistons would be gambling Melo might decide to stay if they extend or re-sign him at the max and present a plan which suggests Detroit gives him as much a chance to win a chip as any other place he might go. That Melo player option at the end of this season would scare me if I were in the Detroit FO. But Brooklyn rolled the dice with DWill, so who knows.

      BTW I am the one who raised the Bledsoe/Jordan for Chandler as a possibility.

      I’m pretty sure I thought of it before you ;)

      I seriously tried to post it from my phone on Saturday.

    83. Brian Cronin

      Asik, easily. Fucking Chicago. What assholes they were to give up on Asik. While the Clippers would obviously trade Jordan for Chandler, though, I don’t think there’s any way the Rockets would trade Asik for Chandler. Asik will make $5 million next season and be a better defender than Chandler.

    84. Z

      er: I agree with you on chandler but he had JR and melo in there as well. Melos game is the least reliant on athleticism for any star player in the league sans the afore mentioned ZBO,

      Max refined my position nicely in his excellent post re:Chandler.

      The reason I included Anthony (pointing out that JRSmith had a “broken head” wasn’t REALLY including him as a candidate for chronic injury, though I do think that mental conditions are at least as serious as physical conditions when it comes to team building:) is because, as the centerpiece, he is not young, and as Max also pointed out, his nagging injuries that he has battled through the past several years are less likely to go away the more wear he puts on his body. So it would be nice to surround him with some younger players instead of the MUCH older players the FO has committed long term to.

      johnno: Pierce – 40,000, Joe Johnson – 33,000, LeBron – 30,000, Wade — 25,000, Dwight – 25,000, just to name a few, and then there are Kobe – 45,000, Nash – 38,000, Dirk – 40,000 and Duncan – 40,000.What’s your point?

      Sure there are “a few” that have declined slower than others. But there are thousands that have followed the basic inverse trend of physical decline:minutes played. It’s like Flossy yesterday pointing to Antonio McDyess’s career to inspire hope that Amar’e will be more durable going forward. Sure, there are exceptions to most rules, but like Amar’e, we’ve seen Anthony slowed down by injury over the past few seasons and it doesn’t get easier (especially playing out of position) to keep an aging body intact. With $89,000,000 invested in players that are OLDER than Anthony over the next two years, I find it hard to argue against diversification.

    85. ruruland

      Melo is clearly injury prone. I’ve always said it’s the biggest concern with his game. It drops off quite a bit when he has something.

    86. ruruland

      The thing is, Melo has dealt with similar issues going back to his 20-year-old season. It’s not as though there’s been an increase in recent years.

    87. yellowboy90

      Brian Cronin:
      Asik, easily. Fucking Chicago. What assholes they were to give up on Asik. While the Clippers would obviously trade Jordan for Chandler, though, I don’t think there’s any way the Rockets would trade Asik for Chandler. Asik will make $5 million next season and be a better defender than Chandler.

      I agree but if Howard goes to Houston they may look to move Asik to create space. Even if they don’t it may mean them not signing Greg Smith whould be a nice addition on the cheap.

    88. Brian Cronin

      But if they’re going to move Asik to make space for Howard, it wouldn’t be to acquire Chandler, of all people. Greg Smith would be a nice addition, though, I agree.

    89. ruruland

      Brian Cronin:
      But if they’re going to move Asik to make space for Howard, it wouldn’t be to acquire Chandler, of all people. Greg Smith would nice, though, I agree.

      Three way deal.

      Something like Asik and Ariza to NY, Chandler to Washington, Nene to Houston.

      I don’t really like the deal.

    90. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, agreed. I think if they trade Chandler, it shouldn’t be for another defense-first center. I just don’t know of any team that would trade a good young point guard for Chandler. If only Bledsoe was available for Chandler. That definitely would be perfect.

    91. ruruland

      Brian Cronin:
      Yeah, agreed. I think if they trade Chandler, it shouldn’t be for another defense-first center. I just don’t know of any team that would trade a good young point guard for Chandler. If only Bledsoe was available for Chandler. That definitely would be perfect.

      IDK, it’s hard to imagine the Clippers getting more than Tyson Chandler for Bledsoe.

      He’s promising, but this is not a young Chris Paul.

    92. yellowboy90

      ive said yesterday I’d be cool with jordan and the 25th pick. Then trade jordan for the 10th pick and Hickson or Leonard. Use the 10th and 24/25 to get a replacement center and some other pieces. 2 or 3 of Thompson, Patterson, Fredette, and maybe Evans.

    93. yellowboy90

      three team with phx, LA, and the Knicks with the knicks receiving Gortat & Dudley. Id even take Beasley contract

    94. Brian Cronin

      Gortat had a bad year last year and then he got injured and missed the rest of the season. I want no part of him. He’s not even young anymore.

    95. johnno

      Brian Cronin: especially if Camby is, indeed, healthy.

      Aww, you had me going there for awhile and then you said this and I realized what a sucker I was for thinking that you were serious…

    96. Brian Cronin

      Aww, you had me going there for awhile and then you said this and I realized what a sucker I was for thinking that you were serious…

      Ha! Well, that’s the rub. It only makes sense if Camby is available. Otherwise, the Knicks would need to get a defensive center back in a deal for Chandler. And if that’s the case, there’s really no point in trading Chandler (unless you get Jordan and Bledsoe, but you’re not getting Jordan and Bledsoe).

    97. johnno

      Zanzibar: In Melo deal, Denver got one first-round pick, Gallinari, W. Chandler, Felton, Mozgov.

      No they didn’t. They got Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, Corey Brewer, Anthony Randolph, Kosta Koufos (i.e., 7 guys who have started for them at one time or another), a first round pick and 2 second round picks. That’s just a smidge better than a really raw guy who averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds a game with 30% FT shooting (and who might turn into a beast but also might plateau at a mediocre level) and one first round pick.

    98. ruruland

      Brian Cronin:
      Gortat had a bad year last year and then he got injured and missed the rest of the season. I want no part of him. He’s not even young anymore.

      Yeah, but when healthy he’s basically Chandler with the ability to pick pop and post. Grab him with low value. IDK.

    99. Brian Cronin

      No they didn’t. They got Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, Corey Brewer, Anthony Randolph, Kosta Koufos (i.e., 7 guys who have started for them at one time or another), a first round pick and 2 second round picks. That’s just a smidge better than a really raw guy who averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds a game with 30% FT shooting (and who might turn into a beast but also might plateau at a mediocre level) and one first round pick.

      Plus the right to swap picks in 2016, which could turn out to be pretty huge considering the Knicks’ possible restart in 2015.

    100. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, but when healthy he’s basically Chandler with the ability to pick pop and post. Grab him with low value. IDK.

      I enjoy his offensive game, I really do, but Phoenix had no takers on him before he got hurt, that’s how badly he was playing.

    101. yellowboy90

      so whats a list of centers in FA or around the league that would work. what is Al Jefferson worth? His D seems to sucks though.

    102. Z

      ruruland: IDK, it’s hard to imagine the Clippers getting more than Tyson Chandler for Bledsoe. He’s promising, but this is not a young Chris Paul.

      After hearing murmurs that Dallas was looking to unload their #13 pick for salary relief (presumably to go hard after Howard and somebody else (Jennings?)), I proposed this on the previous thread. Not sure if it’s a win, win, win, but it seems to cover a lot of criteria:

      Mavs get: the nonguaranteed contracts of James White, Willie Green, and Grant Hill ($4.5 mil in relief)

      Clips get: Tyson Chandler, #24 pick

      Knicks get: Jordan, Bledsoe, Vince Carter, #13 pick.

      (Not only do Clips get a pick to sweeten the deal, but they also help facilitate Howard’s departure from LA, which, if nothing else, gets rid of a shadow-caster at Staples…)

    103. max fisher-cohen

      johnno: No they didn’t.They got Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, Corey Brewer, Anthony Randolph, Kosta Koufos (i.e., 7 guys who have started for them at one time or another), a first round pick and 2 second round picks.That’s just a smidge better than a really raw guy who averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds a game with 30% FT shooting (and who might turn into a beast but also might plateau at a mediocre level) and one first round pick.

      They also got the right to swap 1st rounders in 2016, which could be very valuable depending on how NY handles the summer of 2015.

      The Clippers are more or less at the mercy of Chris Paul right now. I’m sure he has a list of guys that he likes, and I’m sure Chandler and West, his old running mates in NO, are on that list. As we saw with the Dwight Howard situation, a superstar can make you make some pretty sketchy moves.

      Bledsoe is a good player, but he only played 16 MPG in the playoffs. If the plan is to bring back Billups, Bledsoe could find himself the odd man out again, and Jordan is decidedly worse than Chandler. If LAC insisted, I’d be ok including Felton, whose contract is ok but extends past 2015.

      Minny is another team that might be into Chandler depending on what kind of offers pekovic gets. Derrick Williams disappointed his first season (albeit at only 20 years old), but quietly was decent this year with per 36 averages of 17.5 points, 8 rebounds, and close to a block and steal a game. Percentages are subpar but improving. He could stretch the floor for melo & defend PFs.

      If you could get Williams & Ridnour for Chandler, maybe you could also sign Dalembert for mini mid level or just let Minny use its cap space to absorb the rest of Chandler’s deal, possibly putting NY in position to use the full MLE since the cap is rumored to be going up by as much as 20% this year.

    104. yellowboy90

      Z: After hearing murmurs that Dallas was looking to unload their #13 pick for salary relief (presumably to go hard after Howard and somebody else (Jennings?)), I proposed this on the previous thread. Not sure if it’s a win, win, win, but it seems to cover a lot of criteria:

      Mavs get: the nonguaranteed contracts of James White, Willie Green, and Grant Hill ($4.5 mil in relief)

      Clips get: Tyson Chandler, #24 pick

      Knicks get: Jordan, Bledsoe, Vince Carter, #13 pick.

      (Not only do Clips get a pick to sweeten the deal, but they also help facilitate Howard’s departure from LA, which, if nothing else, gets rid of a shadow-caster at Staples…)

      I’d settle for Jordan and the 25 pick. I doubt LA and the Mavs would help each other get better. However Howard trumps Tyson so who knows.

    105. Brian Cronin

      Jordan is worse than Chandler. Picking up the #24 pick while getting worse and not even shedding much salary (Jordan makes a ton of money, as well) is not a good play. Sure, the Knicks should try to get younger and Chandler might be the only guy they can deal to get younger, but it should be for young talent that can actually play now. Bledsoe and Jordan is good, Jordan and a late first rounder is not.

    106. BigBlueAL

      Not gonna lie alot of these scenarios being thrown out for Chandler to me all make the Knicks probably worse, they certainly dont make them better. Keeping Chandler is still the most likely scenario and that isnt exactly a bad thing.

      Although I do agree that if they can trade him to get younger AND better Im all for it of course.

    107. yellowboy90

      Brian Cronin:
      Jordan is worse than Chandler. Picking up the #24 pick while getting worse and not even shedding much salary (Jordan makes a ton of money, as well) is not a good play. Sure, the Knicks should try to get younger and Chandler might be the only guy they can deal to get younger, but it should be for young talent that can actually play now. Bledsoe and Jordan is good, Jordan and a late first rounder is not.

      I just want Jordan to send to the Blazers for their 10th pick and a player. They badly want a defensive center. so the knicks would have the 10th, 24th, & 25th pick plus a major trade exception. If the knicks can’t find a center and some more pieces with that what good are they?

    108. Brian Cronin

      Trying to trade Chandler for a bunch of picks is not a terrible idea, but I don’t think it necessarily is one the Knicks should be pursuing (especially in such a relatively weak draft). This team just won 54 games and went to the sixth game of the second round, suddenly hoping that a bunch of rookies will improve the team next year is too risky of a bet, I think.

    109. Zanzibar

      johnno: No they didn’t.They got Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, Corey Brewer, Anthony Randolph, Kosta Koufos (i.e., 7 guys who have started for them at one time or another), a first round pick and 2 second round picks.That’s just a smidge better than a really raw guy who averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds a game with 30% FT shooting (and who might turn into a beast but also might plateau at a mediocre level) and one first round pick.

      Drummond posted the 27th highest WS/48 in the league’s history for rookies with >1000 minutes played. And at 19yo he was the youngest of all those ahead of him. Most of those ahead of him were legends or proved to be excellent players over the course of their careers. It’s true he played fewer minutes than most of them but you also have to consider that almost all of them played 4 years of college ball. It’s strange that you so readily dismiss him and won’t even acknowledge that he’s a promising rookie. I never claimed he would become a star but he does have some real upside.

      I didn’t include cash payments and 2nd rounders because I didn’t regard them as material and Denver sent one or more of those picks to Minnesota. Also, my memory is we got Brewer and Minnesota got Randolph; they eventually ended up in Denver but I don’t think it was connected to the trade. But if we’re gonna include all of the players in that deal, this gets very complicated. Wouldn’t loss of Billups have to be factored into the equation when evaluating Nuggets’ haul? Let me try to simplify this and pose a question: Would you consider Drummond/2014 1st rounder/Paul Millsap/David West as reasonable compensation for Melo? All I did was allocate 18m trade exception to free agents West and Millsap’s current salaries. If not, I’m curious just what you would consider adequate. Now Johnno surely you’d have to admit I’d be a better GM than Isiah?

    110. ephus

      Paging THCJ. Paging THCJ. There is a Andre Drummond thread calling your name.

      I promise not to get involved. Just want to watch it happen.

    111. Hubert

      nicos: It was a six point game when Copeland came in and in a six point game with less than a minute left you definitely don’t want to give up a three hence taking out Hibbert- hell, knowing the Knicks were looking for a three he might have taken him out even if Copeland didn’t come in.Does Vogel do that in any other situation?I really doubt it.Maybe Woodson should have tried it in game 3 or 4 but I’d say the chances of success were pretty slim- Copeland showed the ability to bang in the post a bit on defense late in the year; unfortunately he was godawful at every other other aspect of defense. He grabbed a whopping 3.5 boards per 36 in the playoffs- Chandler even at half speed grabbed 9.1.I’d say the chances that Cope’s offense would have off-set the huge disadvantage he presents at the five on the other end weren’t good at all.Given the final outcome of the series, you’d have to say it was at least worth a shot but I can’t kill Woodson over that- I’d say Kidd’s minutes, over-relience on a sub-par JR, and trying to go big with Martin at the four were all significantly worse blunders.

      It was a 4 point game. Kenyon Martin had just picked up his 6th foul. The Pacers were going to the line, but it was still a 4 point game.

      And you continue to not get it when you say things like “the chances that Cope’s offense would have off-set the huge disadvantage he presents at the five on the other end weren’t good at all”. It wasn’t Copeland’s offense that needed to be in, it was the spacing for Carmelo Anthony.

      You’re also imagining a huge disadvantage. There isn’t a lot of evidence, but there is evidence that playing Copeland at the 5 vs Indiana was more effective than playing Tyson Chandler. Yes, we were outrebounded when we played Copeland at the 5 vs Hibbert. But we also outscored them.

    112. Hubert

      johnno: No they didn’t.They got Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, Corey Brewer, Anthony Randolph, Kosta Koufos (i.e., 7 guys who have started for them at one time or another), a first round pick and 2 second round picks.

      This isn’t accurate. We actually got Brewer and Minnesota got Randolph.

      I’m still pissed that we waived Brewer for no reason. I believe D’Antoni’s quote was something like: “It’s the right thing to do for him and his agent.” Idiot.

    113. Hubert

      Here is the quote from MDA. We let brewer go as a favor to his agent, Happy Walters. Who repaid the favor by steering Shawne Williams out of town (not that there’s anything wrong with that; that’s what agents do, and that’s why you don’t give things away for them).

      “As long as everybody knows the story and the story is, Corey’s good and I hope he finds a home,” D’Antoni said. “We let him go here beacuse he got a two or three-year contract and sme money and [his agent, Happy Walters] asked us for him to go. I thought we did the right thing as an organization, that we couldn’t promise him what we can have [in Dallas]. I think you hve to take your hat off to the organiaztion and to Donnie for doing the classy thing and let him do it. It’s not a question of can he or can he not play. He can play.”

    114. yellowboy90

      Hubert:
      Here is the quote from MDA.We let brewer go as a favor to his agent, Happy Walters. Who repaid the favor by steering Shawne Williams out of town (not that there’s anything wrong with that; that’s what agents do, and that’s why you don’t give things away for them).

      “As long as everybody knows the story and the story is, Corey’s good and I hope he finds a home,” D’Antoni said. “We let him go here beacuse he got a two or three-year contract and sme money and [his agent, Happy Walters] asked us for him to go. I thought we did the right thing as an organization, that we couldn’t promise him what we can have [in Dallas]. I think you hve to take your hat off to the organiaztion and to Donnie for doing the classy thing and let him do it. It’s not a question of can he or can he not play. He can play.”

      He was let go instead of Billy Walker and I believe Balkman.

    115. nicos

      People are still wring their hands over Corey Brewer??? His TS% barely broke .500 despite being probably the biggest cherry-picker in the league. He’s a good defender when he isn’t completely out of position while gambling for steals which he does about half of the time. He doesn’t rebound, can’t pass or really handle the ball- in short, he’s an 8th or 9th guy at best.

    116. johnno

      Zanzibar: It’s strange that you so readily dismiss him and won’t even acknowledge that he’s a promising rookie.

      Who readily dismissed him? I said that he is incredibly raw (which even his most ardent supporters acknowledge) and that hemight become a beast. I just think that it is foolish to even think about trading a guy who has been named to an all-NBA team 6 times in the last 8 years and just finished 3rd in the MVP voting for a prospect and a mid-first round draft pick. If Drummond becomes a beast in a couple years, I will end up being wrong, but that is a very big “if.”

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