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Saturday, October 25, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Thursday, May 10 2012)

  • [New York Post] Futures of Smith, Novak in doubt after subpar playoffs (Thu, 10 May 2012 02:40:20 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? After his horrid performance last night, J.R. Smith re-tweeted some criticism of his play and hinted the tweets might have helped with his decision on whether to pursue free agency.
    “Damn didn’t know this [many] people didn’t want me in #NY might just get what you…

  • [New York Post] Carmelo believes things will get better (Thu, 10 May 2012 02:40:13 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Carmelo Anthony made a promise for next season, not guaranteeing specific postseason success but declaring 2012-13 will be a better campaign for the Knicks.
    “Next year we’ll be better,â? Anthony said after the Knicks fell to the Heat 106-94 in Game 5, last night ending their season and…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ season extinguished by Heat (Thu, 10 May 2012 04:34:43 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? A sticker of the NBA championship trophy hung above the Knicks’ lockers at the Garden late in the season as a reminder of their goal.
    The Knicks’ season ended last night 15 victories short of that goal as the franchise will go without a championship for a 39th straight…

  • [New York Post] After up-and-down season, next year starts now for the Knicks (Thu, 10 May 2012 04:16:41 -0500)
    MIAMI â?” The record will show that the Knicks’ season ended last night at American Airlines Arena. History will insist the end came in a mad flurry in the second half, when the Heat made one final push to topple the fragile visitors off the cliff, to end the competitive phase…

  • [New York Post] Lin praises Woodson, hopes to hang around (Thu, 10 May 2012 01:57:01 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Jeremy Lin was once known as a Mike D’Antoni point guard, but yesterday Lin gave his blessing to interim coach Mike Woodson.
    The injured Lin and Woodson are expected to be reunited next season. Lin is a restricted free agent and the Knicks have eyes on re-signing him…

  • [New York Post] Tough end for Knicks’ Chandler (Thu, 10 May 2012 03:01:03 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Tyson Chandler said he hopes to become a bigger offensive threat next season.
    His season ended in the same visitor’s locker room at AmericanAirlines Arena as last season, but under much different circumstance. Last year, he was holding a bottle of champagne after helping the Mavericks over the…

  • [New York Post] LeBron dominates Knicks in so many ways (Thu, 10 May 2012 04:45:12 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? LeBron James wore every cloak possible Wednesday night. At the outset, he wore the mantle of the facilitator, getting teammates involved. After the Heat built an impressive halftime lead, he donned the garb of a terminator, determined not to let the Knicks back into the game or the series…

  • [New York Post] Miller, Battier hit mark (Thu, 10 May 2012 01:11:38 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Early in the series, the Heat talked about symbiotic relationships between shooters and attackers and drivers and all parts of the offense. And two of the guys who were so important to all of that were 3-point specialists Mike Miller and Shane Battier.
    But in Games 3 and 4…

  • [New York Post] Stoudemire sees better days ahead (Thu, 10 May 2012 04:43:28 -0500)
    MIAMI â?? Amar’e Stoudemire sat in front of his locker with bandages of ice on his knees and his head in his hands. The frustrating finish to a difficult season was just starting to set in and it didn’t feel good.
    A nearby stat sheet showed the Heat had…

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks were fun while they lasted (Thu, 10 May 2012 00:17:00 EDT)
    Even as they said goodbye until autumn, the Knicks left us with one last wacky bit of theater to remember them by.

  • [New York Newsday] Up-and-down year ends with dud for Amar'e Stoudemire (Thu, 10 May 2012 00:35:00 EDT)
    Amar'e Stoudemire sat at his locker holding his head in his hands, with the left one still stitched up after his encounter with a fire extinguisher case here last week.

  • [New York Newsday] LeBron gets help but pal Carmelo doesn't (Thu, 10 May 2012 00:34:58 EDT)
    Sometime this summer, LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony will sit down in New York or South Beach or maybe in London during the Olympics. And they will talk about this first-round playoff series.

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo confident Knicks will get better (Thu, 10 May 2012 01:36:56 EDT)
    Carmelo Anthony has made the playoffs all nine seasons of his NBA career and has advanced out of the first round just once.

  • [New York Newsday] Knicks' Lin does not want to rush return (Thu, 10 May 2012 00:01:19 EDT)
    Jeremy Lin had hoped he could return for this opening-round series against the Heat, but after testing his knee and consulting with some Knicks' veterans, he decided not to push it.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Amare: Nash in N.Y. 'would be great' (Thu, 10 May 2012 05:34:09 EDT)
    No love for Jeremy Lin, Amare?
    Before the Knicks’ loss in Game 5 to the Miami Heat, Knicks star Amare Stoudemire said that it “would be great” to have free-agent-to-be Steve Nash in New York next season.
    “Everyone knows that Steve loves New York and that New York loves Steve,” Stoudemire told the Daily News. “I love Steve. It would be great to have him here next year.”
    Nash, who will turn 39 next season, told ESPN.com’s Marc Stein last month that he’d like to “sign for three more years this summer” and play beyond his 40th birthday when he either inks a new deal to stay with the Suns or finds a new team via free agency.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Novak: 'No place I'd rather play than NY' (Thu, 10 May 2012 02:01:42 EDT)
    MIAMI — Following Wednesday night’s first-round exit, Steve Novak still said there’s no place he’d rather play than New York.
    “That’s for sure,” he said after the Knicks’ Game 5 loss. “I can’t think back to a more fun year I’ve had playing basketball when you have so much fun playing in a place that’s where you want to be. And for me, that’s definitely New York.”
    From Feb. 6 to the end of the regular season, Novak created his own persona in New York with his Mr.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Amare, Knicks face offseason of uncertainty (Thu, 10 May 2012 01:03:23 EDT)
    Amare Stoudemire, the Knicks’ wounded superstar, walked slowly off the floor after picking up his sixth and final foul on Wednesday night.
    It was the bitter end of a brutal night for Stoudemire.
    In foul trouble all night, the Knicks power forward finished 14 points and just four rebounds — or two fewer than Mike Bibby — in 31 minutes.
    Afterward, he was asked if his injured left hand — the hand he lacerated by hitting the glass encasing of a fire extinguisher at American Airlines Arena ten days ago — was bothering him.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Melo: 'I'm confident in my team' (Thu, 10 May 2012 00:48:40 EDT)
    MIAMI — The conclusion of the Knicks’ season Wednesday night enhanced this burning question: If the team was fully healthy, could they have taken the Heat to six or seven games?
    It’s one that fans will be pondering over the next few days (even though the Heat were the better overall team), and one that will end with realizing the Knicks do have potential — the potential to face the Heat in the Eastern Conference finals in the next year or so.
    While the Knicks entered the playoffs this season as the seventh seed, they had the talent and momentum of a third seed, having won 18 of their last 24 regular-season games under Mike Woodson and led by Carmelo Anthony’s 24.

  • [New York Times] Playoffs | Conference Quarterfinals: Heat 106, Knicks 94: Knicks’ Season Ends in a Game 5 Rout by the Heat (Thu, 10 May 2012 06:20:10 GMT)
    Despite a momentary slip three days earlier, the Heat, led by LeBron James’s 29 points, left no doubt about their superiority in clinching the first-round series over the Knicks, four games to one.

  • [New York Times] Shane Battier Is Still Chasing a Title With the Heat (Thu, 10 May 2012 05:40:08 GMT)
    Shane Battier, the Miami Heat forward who dove all over the floor against the Knicks on Wednesday, has brought defense and intelligence to the pursuit of his first N.B.A. championship.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies 92, Clippers 80: N.B.A. Playoffs — Memphis Grizzlies Beat Los Angeles Clippers (Thu, 10 May 2012 08:30:40 GMT)
    Marc Gasol scored 23 points and Zach Randolph added 19 as the Memphis Grizzlies avoided elimination by beating the Los Angeles Clippers on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Heat Advance to Face Indiana, Topping NY 106-94 (Thu, 10 May 2012 07:45:46 GMT)
    LeBron James was still on the court, enjoying the moment after ousting the New York Knicks, when the first questions came about what’s next for the Miami Heat.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies Stay Alive as Heat Close Out Knicks (Thu, 10 May 2012 05:19:19 GMT)
    The Miami Heat hammered the final nail into the injury-ravaged New York Knicks’ coffin with a 106-94 win to clinch their place in the second round of the NBA playoffs, while the Grizzlies avoided elimination by beating the Clippers in Memphis.

  • [New York Times] James Scores 29 and Heat Oust Knicks, 106-94 (Thu, 10 May 2012 01:57:36 GMT)
    LeBron James decided not to play in New York two summers ago. He won’t be playing there any more this season, either.

  • [New York Times] Heat Knock Out Knicks, Meet Pacers Next (Thu, 10 May 2012 02:36:55 GMT)
    The Miami Heat hammered the final nail into the injury-ravaged New York Knicks’ coffin with a 106-94 win on Wednesday to clinch their place in the second round of the NBA playoffs.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: A Real Post About the Fake Walt Frazier (Thu, 10 May 2012 02:51:16 GMT)
    An impersonator’s postings on Twitter are poking fun at the Knicks legend Walt Frazier’s style of basketball analysis, heavy on words that rhyme.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Lin Says of Knee: ‘It Didn’t Feel Right’ (Thu, 10 May 2012 02:46:54 GMT)
    Knicks point guard Jeremy Lin said that he worked hard to beat the schedule for returning from his knee injury but that he wasn’t ready to play.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Pacers Rebuild a Winner, Quietly (Thu, 10 May 2012 02:43:07 GMT)
    The Indiana Pacers beat Orlando to win their first playoff series since 2005, marking a possible turnaround for the once-strong franchise that fell on hard times over the past seven years.

  • [New York Daily News] Isola: Lin injury story a mysterious one (Thu, 10 May 2012 07:08:50 GMT)
    The Jeremy Lin story, the one about the undrafted kid from Harvard becoming an international phenomenon overnight, sounded like one of those feel-good Disney movies. But in the movies, the hero plays.

  • [New York Daily News] Exit stage left: Knicks bounced in Game 5 (Thu, 10 May 2012 06:06:29 GMT)
    The Knicks tumultuous strike-shortened year, one that included the phenomenon known as Linsanity, a coaching change and an actual playoff victory, ended Wednesday night at approximately 9:20 EST.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Heat too hot for Knicks to handle (Thu, 10 May 2012 05:27:31 GMT)
    Now you wonder if the Knicks can ever get by Miami in a playoff series, as long as James and Wade play together. The answer, for now, is a resounding, no.

  • [New York Daily News] Carmelo can’t carry load himself in Game 5 (Thu, 10 May 2012 05:15:50 GMT)
    In an attempt to plant his left foot and push off his surgically-repaired left knee at full speed Monday, Knicks guard Jeremy Lin felt discomfort.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Amar’e fired up for Nash (Thu, 10 May 2012 04:32:36 GMT)
    Amar’e Stoudemire issued a public plea to Steve Nash, his former Phoenix Suns teammate who will be a free agent on July 1, to join him in New York.

  • 266 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Thursday, May 10 2012)

    1. er

      I was watching the game last night with a “heat” fan, and it was just pissing me off in those stretches where melo was in the game fighting and clawing on every possession and lebron was off on the heat bench in full sweatsuit relaxing. Wade was doin his thing, then lebron would come in rested like a man possessed and play well.

      Now this is bothersome and somewhat of a jealous position, but to have that luxury that no other big time player sans the spurs has.

      Lebron is supposed to be the best player in the league and for him to go and join forces with a top five guy who can take a huge load off is just LAME….I know I’m just mad the Knicks lost but it’s still pretty LAME

    2. jimjamj

      I know we’re not getting any champagne, but that doesn’t mean we’ll enjoy whine ^

    3. Matt Smith

      I actually thought it was a fun season to watch altogether. I’m just happy we were back in the playoffs in general.

      While the Heat are definitely more talented than us and deserved to win, I have to say that I have very little respect for the team in general. The Decision, as bad as it was, isn’t the reason. They have a culture of flopping, a lot like the Celtics (specifically Pierce and Rondo) that I find disgusting and a disgraceful.

      If anyone is bold enough to watch the replay, watch Lebron carefully after he misses a shot. I was paying attention to this specifically. He complained to the ref EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. He finally got a tech when it didn’t matter. He and Dwyane Wade are two of the most athletic and powerful people in the league, and they fall to the floor at the slightest gust of wind. I can’t even blame the officials; their job is impossibly hard when guys feign contact as well as they do.

      I think basketball is a beautiful sport that’s being ruined by a ref’s whistle every 5 seconds. This is something Stern needs to pay attention to. I know that players should ‘play to win,’ but only within the confines of the game. It’s an abuse of the limitations of the ref’s abilities to perceive contact. It makes the game less fun.

      There’s little you can do to convince me that a scrawny white guy like Novak can knock Lebron, who is possibly the most athletic man on the planet, down to the ground on a contested shot. Yet he and Wade fall regardless. And it’s disgusting.

      I’m not trying to be a homer here, but I don’t think the Knicks have that culture. Melo’s been blocked cleanly several times this series, and he mostly just looks disappointed with himself. But we’re not immune to it. We had one of the worst floppers in the league in Gallo, and though I loved him as a player, I hated that he did it.

      For me, this is the biggest thing that needs to be changed in the NBA. It’s the reason I’m rooting for the Pacers.

    4. ess-dog

      Well that’s that.

      I’m actually looking forward to a season with little player movement. I won’t even mind if they bring Woodson back for the sake of stability. This is our team for the foreseeable future, minus a bit of tinkering.

      I assume we’ll retain Lin, but I would love a nice veteran upgrade at the 2. Not sure who that would be, but we need someone that can push Landry to back up 3 minutes and let Shump develop slowly. Someone in the Grant Hill/Mike Redd/Pietrus vein but for the vet min.

      That starting unit would be palatable. The bench will be thin: Fields, Douglas, Jerome Jordan, a re-built Shump, Harrelson. I like Novak, but they could easily throw that 1.9mil at a vet guard instead (not JR.) Maybe TD will reawaken as a bench combo scorer? I’m apt to just let Harrelson walk and give his minutes to Jordan and/or Jeffries if he comes back. And if Shump starts playing more sf, maybe we look to move Fields also? Maybe use him to move up in the draft? It’s too bad TD and Fields’ value is in the basement right now.

    5. New Guy

      There was a stretch in the first half when I actually thought we might win this game, even though I knew deep down it was probably unsustainable. It was when Bibby looked rejuvenated and was making crisp entry passes and swinging the ball quickly whenever it got back out to him.

      It just underscores how impossible it is to judge Melo & Amare without a point guard, and gives me the slightest glimmer of hope for next season that, with Lin, we can run similar offensive sets with the bonus of his ability to penetrate. Pretty much like the team we saw in Woodson’s first few games.

      That’s all the good I got.

    6. Matt Smith

      Also, we shouldn’t really waste breath arguing the merits of bringing Lin back. He will be back, because Dolan is going to ride that cash cow as long as it’s still giving milk. That’s a guarantee.

    7. 2FOR18

      er:
      I was watching the game last night with a “heat” fan, and it was just pissing me off in those stretches where melo was in the game fighting and clawing on every possession and lebron was off on the heat bench in full sweatsuit relaxing. Wade was doin his thing, then lebron would come in rested like a man possessed and play well.

      Now this is bothersome and somewhat of a jealous position, but to have that luxury that no other big time player sans the spurs has.

      Lebron is supposed to be the best player in the league and for him to go and join forces with a top five guy who can take a huge load off is just LAME….I know I’m just mad the Knicks lost but it’s still pretty LAME

      Other than the Spurs as you mentioned, other players/teams that have that luxury are Durant (due to Westbrook), Westbrook (due to Harden and Durant), and Pierce and Rondo with each other.
      Now the Knicks should have that advantage with melo and Amare, but our coach doesn’t get that.

    8. thenamestsam

      I thought the guys really summed it up nicely in the recap last night. In a way this was a great season. Best season by far in the past decade, and there are real reasons for hope for next year. The best parts of this season were truly fantastic and there were times of real optimism in Knicks land, where a championship seemed realistically possible within the foreseeable future, something that hasn’t been said in a long time.

      That said, we’re New Yorkers, and we expect the best, and it’s hard to really feel good about this team in that context. We had moments of great play! There was brief hope for about 3 weeks! We won a playoff game! Next year we can’t possibly be this snakebitten! Is that what it has come to, that such meager rewards are treated like a bounty?

      I don’t want to sound overly bleak, because there is hope for the future but I think some fans tend to get caught up in looking at their teams best case scenario and ignoring that every teams best case scenario is damn good. Look at all the teams that have been bounced from the playoffs so far, and all of them have just as many reasons for optimism as us. We’re saying “If Lin and Shump keep improving we’ll have a really talented nucleus”, but isn’t Utah saying the same thing about Favors, Hayward and Kanter? We’re saying “If Amare and Melo can figure out how to gel, lookout world”, but isn’t Dallas saying the same thing about Dirk and Deron?

      My point isn’t that we should abandon hope, just that we should remember that if hope as defined as “If everything goes to plan and we catch a few lucky breaks, we can be among the contenders in the next few years” then about 75% of the league has hope at any given point in time. And let’s face it, we’re the Knicks. Nothing ever goes according to plan, and we never get the breaks.

    9. 2FOR18

      thenamestsam:
      And let’s face it, we’re the Knicks. Nothing ever goes according to plan, and we never get the breaks.

      That’s the problem. Under Dolan, there never really is a plan.
      The one plan we’ve had recently was the MDA Plan, where a coach was hired with a certain philosophy and we tried to obtain players that match that philosophy. It was exhilarating to have a young team with a real plan, and it was devastating, to me, to see that blown up in the melo trade, with the result being that we had to luck into Lin just to be a playoff team, even with 2 max contract guys.

      Utah, a young team, is a pg away from being scary, and they have all kinds of assets and cap flexibility to get that pg.

    10. Caleb

      @9 This is way too gloomy.

      This past season, almost everything went wrong, and the Knicks still went 36-30 (45-37 for a full season). And based on point differential, they were a little better than that – they should have been 39-27 (48-34).

      And that’s with:
      – Our starting PG missing 2/3 of the season, on a team with basically no backup.

      – Melo and Amare BOTH had the worst seasons of their careers (look at the numbers). They don’t complement each other well, but they each played a million times better the year before, when they were both healthy.

      – TD & Fields was our starting backcourt for 20 games

      Tyson was great, but he had the same season he’s had the past few years, and he’s still 29, so no reason he can’t do it again.

      Meanwhile we’re one of the younger teams in the league, including two very good rookies (or near-rookies). Lin and Shumpert might not meet our fondest dreams, but it would be very surprising if they don’t get better.

      All in all I think this team is well set up to win 50+ next year. With only a little luck, they could win 55, and at that point you’re getting serious. At the very least we’ll avoid another 1 vs. 8 or 2 vs. 7 first-round wipeout. (Unless Chandler misses a big chunk of time and then all bets are off).

      We need more consistency with the backup bigs – injuries this year hurt. I’m not hanging much hope on Jordan but I’ll be interested to see if he can play next year. Harrelson plays a different position, and I like him a lot as a 4th big man (or even 3rd sometimes), especially if he gets his shot back.

      We desperately need a functional backup PG. Is John Lucas III under contract next year?

      And we need shooters on the wings, whether it’s enticing Novak back, getting Walker back healthy, Douglas/Fields re-learning to shoot or just finding a FA.

      These kinds of needs are important, but not impossible to fill.

      I expect we’ll gauge Amare’s trade value but wont find a worthwhile deal. He’ll be our souped up Brandon Bass.

    11. PrecociousNeophyte

      After reading many comments from Knicks fans saying they are tired of waiting for next year, shouldn’t there be more support of the idea of going after Nash?

      It seems most are in agreement that retaining Lin is the right move, but doesn’t that conflict with the win now desire many are exhibiting?

    12. Frank

      @9 and @11 –
      I hear what thenamestam is saying, but the difference is that Utah is still hoping their 3 best players become players that we already have. Favors is supposed to be the next Tyson Chandler, but we already HAVE Tyson Chandler. I’m not sure who Hayward is supposed to be, but we already HAVE Carmelo Anthony. And maybe Kanter is supposed to be awesome but again, potential is just potential.

      Yes, we’re banking on the potential of Lin and Shumpert, but only as complementary pieces. We’re not hoping Shump becomes Lebron James or Dwyane Wade (although that would be awesome). Lin has already played to a PER of 20.

      I feel pretty good about our team going forward. If you ask me, if Miami doesn’t win it this year, I think their chances of a ‘chip only get worse from this point on – their cap flexibility is non-existent, and maybe I’m alone in this, but I was seriously unimpressed with Wade this series. He was great when he got the ball off cuts when the defender was already on his hip, but he didn’t really show much ability to beat even guys like Landry Fields off the dribble. His FTA/FGA was at a career-low this year even though he cut down his 3PA by 50%. He seemed to shoot a lot of fadeaway turn-around jumpers. And if he can’t blow by people anymore, teams will put bigger guys on him that he can’t abuse in the post.

      Looking forward to next year – I can’t remember who said it but I agree completely. JR must just be a complete enigma to GMs – the guy has so much ability and undeniably plays hard, but brings horrible shot selection (if I see another step back jumper 1 foot inside the 3 point line…!), ridiculous gambles on D, and overdribbling. Wouldn’t we be better off with a guy like Dahntay Jones or someone similar? Not flashy, plays smart, etc. If JR will pick up his option I guess he’s a good value, but maybe we already have enough chuckers on this team.

    13. Spree8

      When pressed about his assertion that the Knicks need better leaders, Chandler said, “we have to elevate our teammates. I think we have to do a a better job of getting everybody involved, getting everybody playing at a high level, and get everybody focused on what we trying to accomplish.”

      “It has to be a team effort. It can’t be individuals, because when you play as individuals you don’t get very far.”

      ..TEAM CAPTAIN HAVE SPOKEN..

    14. KnickfaninNJ

      It was so weird watching the game and reading the post game coverage. The announcers in the game and the press all seemed to talk about how the Knicks shot horribly, relied too much on Carmelo and JR, and so on. But the Knicks actually scored 94 points. That’s not bad for the playoffs. It’s actually 5 more points than they scored in their win on Sunday. The problem was their defense. They gave up 106 points. And you could see their defense was bad watching the game. The Heat got easy transition baskets and also got many easy dunks or short shots inside when the Knicks defense broke down. Unfortunately, it was kind of like watching Atlanta get blown out by Orlando in 2010. Too many easy baskets for the opposition. The announcers and press are knowledgeable guys. I don’t know why they always think the Knicks should be shooting themselves out of trouble instead of defending out of trouble.

      Note, I watched TNT to see an outsider’s view of the Knicks and didn’t see the MSG presentation. MSG might have been different.

    15. Frank

      Question for Brian, who I consider the resident Larry Coon for Knickerblogger:

      By my quick calculations, right now the lowest we could get our cap# to is a few hundred thousand greater than the cap even if we declined every option except Lin, so we would be stuck only with exceptions like the MLE, BAE, and vet’s minimums to sign players. Presumably the cap is not going up this year, but if it even goes up by $1M, we could theoretically get under the cap, which would take away our MLE. What happens to Gilbert Arenas provision players if the incumbent team doesn’t have an MLE exception?

    16. Shad0wF0x

      I wouldn’t be surprised if those 5 turnovers by J.R. and Landry weren’t a result of some slow predictable pass that got picked. That’s 10 pts there from steals alone.

    17. Frank

      (the follow-up question is: if we could somehow get under the cap, would we still be able to match any offer for J-Lin up to the MLE amount despite not having an MLE, and also have the room exception AND the BAE to use?)

    18. Frank

      Meanwhile Al Iannazzone just tweeted: “Woodson said Lin will be back but whether he starts remains to be seen woodson said.”

      Who in the world would start over him? Do we HAVE any other point guards that will be healthy at season start? Toney? That’s about as transparent an effort to drive down Lin’s value as I can imagine.

    19. d-mar

      @11 and 14 – thanks Caleb and Frank for providing a little perspective. If the Heat are the bar for the next few seasons, then pretty much everyone in the East except Chicago (and they’ve got their own issues) should just give up all hope. We’re still relatively young, have the DPOY and the Most Improved Player in Lin (he would have won if not for injury) and a possible All-NBA defender in Shump. And I haven’t even mentioned our 2 best scorers, who really didn’t have great seasons this year.

      I like where we are, and trust Grunwald to make some shrewd moves this off season. Can’t wait for next season.

    20. TelegraphedPass

      Shad0wF0x: I wouldn’t be surprised if those 5 turnovers by J.R. and Landry weren’t a result of some slow predictable pass that got picked. That’s 10 pts there from steals alone.

      Landry’s turnovers were all infuriating. One came off of a 3 on 1 fastbreak where he utterly failed to put the ball in Amar’e’s hand. Incredible. He’s a decent passer but his ability is sometimes overstated.

    21. bobneptune

      KnickfaninNJ:

      Note, I watched TNT to see an outsider’s view of the Knicks and didn’t see the MSG presentation.MSG might have been different.

      shaq actually made the best point and he repeated it a number of times that melo needs to stop laughing and smiling after losses , especially after getting smacked around again in the playoffs.

    22. Nick C.

      Frank: Meanwhile Al Iannazzone just tweeted: “Woodson said Lin will be back but whether he starts remains to be seen woodson said.”Who in the world would start over him? Do we HAVE any other point guards that will be healthy at season start? Toney? That’s about as transparent an effort to drive down Lin’s value as I can imagine.

      I’m not gonna say Woodson goes out of his way to take Lin down a peg wheneve rhe gets a chance but it seems pretty damn close. Some of it may be how he is wired after all he referred to Shumpert as “rook”. Perhaps the underlying question would shed more light rather than just a dangling response.

    23. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: shaq actually made the best point and he repeated it a number of times that melo needs to stop laughing and smiling after losses , especially after getting smacked around again in the playoffs.

      o u right great point shaq we obvi lost cuz of smiling NO MORE SMILING

    24. TelegraphedPass

      True champions, like Magic Johnson and Hakeem Olajuwon, never smiled. That’s how they won multiple titles.

      If Melo smiled less, he’d have made more shots.

    25. TelegraphedPass

      Amar’e smiles less, that’s why he had such a great series and won all those titles.

    26. Caleb

      Nick C.: I’m not gonna say Woodson goes out of his way to take Lin down a peg wheneve rhe gets a chance but it seems pretty damn close.Some of it may be how he is wired after all he referred to Shumpert as “rook”.Perhaps the underlying question would shed more light rather than just a dangling response.

      This is just Woody – he is old-school that way. It caused some friction down here when the Hawks had a very young team. Of course Lin will be our starting PG (unless we sign Nash and let him walk).

    27. TelegraphedPass

      It’s incredible the narratives people spin to explain why players run into losses. Nobody gave LeBron credit for not smiling after the Finals loss or the loss to the Celtics in his last game as a Cavalier.

      It was all, “Oh, he lacked the will to win. If he wanted it more he would be a champion.”

      Sometimes your team just lacks talent or is hampered by injuries. Sometimes you just play like ass and brick tons of shots. Sometimes you do everything right and lose, and sometimes you do everything wrong and win (looks at 2010 NBA Finals Kobe).

      I don’t think his friendship with LeBron limited Melo’s ability to play against him. He just had a mediocre series. Wade didn’t let his friendship with Novak slow him down or stop the trash talk.

      A mediocre Melo series isn’t going to cut it against the Heat, especially when his team is fraught with injuries and shallow as hell.

    28. tastycakes

      The best thing about this series was how Woodson refused to run any plays to get Novak open, thereby dramatically driving his open market value down in just one short week.

      I’ve been pretty pro-JR, but I am ambivalent about him staying or going.

      Grunwald front office did a pretty good job with role players this year, hopefully they’ll show it again next year.

      If the team stays healthy (a giant ‘if’ but perhaps more likely in a normal season) it’s probably a 50-55 win team and will be able to get out of the first round. Look at this year — with a good draw, the ECF would have been a possibility, warts and all.

      Way, way too many injury problems this year. Somebody in the Knicks training staff needs to up their game.

    29. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass:
      It’s incredible the narratives people spin to explain why players run into losses. Nobody gave LeBron credit for not smiling after the Finals loss or the loss to the Celtics in his last game as a Cavalier.

      It was all, “Oh, he lacked the will to win. If he wanted it more he would be a champion.”

      Sometimes your team just lacks talent or is hampered by injuries. Sometimes you just play like ass and brick tons of shots. Sometimes you do everything right and lose, and sometimes you do everything wrong and win (looks at 2010 NBA Finals Kobe).

      I don’t think his friendship with LeBron limited Melo’s ability to play against him. He just had a mediocre series. Wade didn’t let his friendship with Novak slow him down or stop the trash talk.

      A mediocre Melo series isn’t going to cut it against the Heat, especially when his team is fraught with injuries and shallow as hell.

      Melo figured out how to beat his individual defender as the series wore on. But the fronting approach on defense could not be taken advantage of, when the Knicks are able to take advantage of it next year — the entire dynamic of the match-up changes.

    30. ruruland

      tastycakes:
      The best thing about this series was how Woodson refused to run any plays to get Novak open, thereby dramatically driving his open market value down in just one short week.

      I’ve been pretty pro-JR, but I am ambivalent about him staying or going.

      Grunwald front office did a pretty good job with role players this year, hopefully they’ll show it again next year.

      If the team stays healthy (a giant ‘if’ but perhaps more likely in a normal season) it’s probably a 50-55 win team and will be able to get out of the first round.Look at this year — with a good draw, the ECF would have been a possibility, warts and all.

      Way, way too many injury problems this year.Somebody in the Knicks training staff needs to up their game.

      I think with the right pieces around Melo,Chandler,Amar’e and Lin 60 wins isn’t totally unreasonable.

    31. jhaelin

      Based on the 19 games that Melo and Jeremy played together (actually 18 if we disregard the Utah game where Melo left after 6 minutes) it seems there is a pattern for what melo had done to help the team win.
      this little study disregards the impact of other players and only considers Melo’s impact while playing together with Jeremy. I did this quick study of the stats because more than what Jeremy can do there seems to be a strong feeling circulating the boards that Melo’s style of play has a greater influence on the success or failure of the team. Specifically when we here talk about Meloball or ball movement I thought it would be important to take a look at Melo’s stats for shots taken and assists given during the 19 games together with Lin. The starting premise for this study is to find out whether Melo sharing the ball has an impact on the success of the Knicks

      So with that long intro let’s get to the numbers…

      In the 19 games that Melo and Lin played together here are the numbers for Melo when the Knicks won (10 games):
      13.88 shots per game, 3.75 assists per game = 3.7 shots/assist

      When the knicks lost, here are Melo’s numbers:
      16.56 shots/game, 2.77 assists/game = 5.98 shots/assist

      Of course we can get more accurate numbers if we consider the stats per minutes played has there were some blow out games…

      Adjusted for minutes played Melo’s numbers looked this way…
      When the knicks won he shot the ball every 2.22 minutes and assisted every 10.05 minutes
      (which gave a ratio of 4.53 shots/assist for 48 minutes played).

      When they lost Melo shot the ball every 2.1 minutes and assisted every 16.4 minutes
      (which gave a ratio of 7.49 shots/assist for 48 minutes played).

      Please draw your own conclusions but it seems clear enough to me that when the shooting less or passing more by Melo has helped the Knicks win.

    32. TelegraphedPass

      tastycakes: The best thing about this series was how Woodson refused to run any plays to get Novak open, thereby dramatically driving his open market value down in just one short week.I’ve been pretty pro-JR, but I am ambivalent about him staying or going.Grunwald front office did a pretty good job with role players this year, hopefully they’ll show it again next year.If the team stays healthy (a giant ‘if’ but perhaps more likely in a normal season) it’s probably a 50-55 win team and will be able to get out of the first round. Look at this year — with a good draw, the ECF would have been a possibility, warts and all. Way, way too many injury problems this year. Somebody in the Knicks training staff needs to up their game.

      This was a season without reason though. We wouldn’t normally have had a shot at JR during a regular season. The short off-season forced teams to make quick decisions. Some of them, like GS’ offer on DeAndre Jordan, helped NY tremendously.

      I honestly can’t see NY having similar success this summer with the meager resources available.

    33. jhaelin

      Oh and I forget to note that whether they won or lost what was consistant was that Melo took a shot roughly every 2.2 minutes. the only difference was he was on the floor less minutes when they won games (29.1 minutes) and when they lost he was for more (34.5 minutes)…

      Adjusted for minutes played Melo’s numbers looked this way…
      When the knicks won he shot the ball every 2.22 minutes and assisted every 10.05 minutes
      (which gave a ratio of 4.53 shots/assist for 48 minutes played).

      When they lost Melo shot the ball every 2.1 minutes and assisted every 16.4 minutes
      (which gave a ratio of 7.49 shots/assist for 48 minutes played).

      Please draw your own conclusions but it seems clear enough to me that when the shooting less or passing more by Melo has helped the Knicks win.

    34. TelegraphedPass

      ruruland: I think with the right pieces around Melo,Chandler,Amar’e and Lin 60 wins isn’t totally unreasonable.

      SUPER optimistic. Jesus.

    35. formido

      ruruland: I think with the right pieces around Melo,Chandler,Amar’e and Lin 60 wins isn’t totally unreasonable.

      Of course. This year had a disappointing end, but there is a huge element of luck to any season, and the Knicks just got really unlucky. There’s no need to read too much into a set of circumstances which really had no winning play.

      This team has a ton of talent. They play elite defense and, when Lin is in as a glue to tie all the talent together, the offense is pretty efficient too. The best evidence we have, that run after Woodson, says this team can be dominant. Folks should be patient and excited.

    36. JK47

      Well, this year’s team was better than last year’s team, which was our first decent squad in a decade. This team actually played defense.

      Next year we’ll start with a core of Lin, Shumpert, Melo, Amar’e and Chandler. We’ll need some guards; perhaps it’s possible to snag a decent backup PG in the draft and bring in a 2-guard who can shoot a little via one of the free agent exceptions. Fields, Jorts and Jerome Jordan should all be nice bench pieces and perhaps Jared Jeffries will come back and do his thing.

      This is basically the same core that was 5th in the NBA in defensive rating this past season. If the team can remain a top 10 defense– which I absolutely think it can– while improving the offense, it should be a fun team. A title contender? Non on paper, but next year maybe it’ll be Wade who goes down with an injury when the playoffs start and Bosh who punches a fire extinguisher.

    37. johnlocke

      Who are these pieces man? We have no draft picks, little money – much of which will be used to re-sign Lin, and NO Three point shooting (once we lose JR and Novak). Finding Lin and Novak were real strokes of luck. I don’t think we can bank on that every season. The only real difference-making free agent out there right now that we can somewhat ‘afford’ would be Nash, and we’d have to most likely not sign Lin to get him. 60 wins next year? We’ll be a #4 seed at best w/ our core as it stands now.

      ruruland: I think with the right pieces around Melo,Chandler,Amar’e and Lin 60 wins isn’t totally unreasonable.

    38. er

      Lmao yes we will win if he does not smile….absolutely

      bobneptune: shaq actually made the best point and he repeated it a number of times that melo needs to stop laughing and smiling after losses , especially after getting smacked around again in the playoffs.

    39. johnlocke

      Just saw this…had a similar post, I agree. Only difference making FA I see out there is Nash and we’re not getting him.

      TelegraphedPass: This was a season without reason though. We wouldn’t normally have had a shot at JR during a regular season. The short off-season forced teams to make quick decisions. Some of them, like GS’ offer on DeAndre Jordan, helped NY tremendously.

      I honestly can’t see NY having similar success this summer with the meager resources available.

    40. Scorpio Dragon

      At this point I don’t see anybody stopping the Spurs. They are without a doubt the most complete, deep and disciplined team in the league. Miami might win 2 games against them. I hate to say it but I think only the Celtics (or Memphis if they get it together) have a legitimate shot at stopping that Juggernaut.

    41. er

      I’m just venting stupidity and nitpicking it’s not that serious I was just bs’ing a little

      jimjamj:
      I know we’re not getting any champagne, but that doesn’t mean we’ll enjoy whine ^

    42. Nick C.

      jhaelin: Oh and I forget to note that whether they won or lost what was consistant was that Melo took a shot roughly every 2.2 minutes. the only difference was he was on the floor less minutes when they won games (29.1 minutes) and when they lost he was for more (34.5 minutes)…

      If he shot the same frequency in wins or losses but assisted less is it possible his teammates just made less shots when the team lost rather than he just passed less.

    43. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass: SUPER optimistic. Jesus.

      You really think so?

      Melo won 54 and 53 games in a superior conference with Chauncey Billups as the second best player and no rim-protecting big man, on a team consistently banged up. (He won 50 and 52 with Allen Iverson, no shooting and at least one injured starting big for the whole year)

      Amar’e won 60 games on poor defensive teams.

      Chandler won 56 games on a less talented team than the Knicks have now.

      It’s an upper range estimate, but it’s certainly do-able if things go right — which they’ll have to at some point.

    44. Will the Thrill

      I think we will see a major drop in efficiency if we keep this Iso-Joe offense going next year. Hopefully it is just because Lin is out, but even next year it “remains to be seen if he starts” lol Woody

    45. Frank

      johnlocke:
      Who are these pieces man? We have no draft picks, little money – much of which will be used to re-sign Lin, and NO Three point shooting (once we lose JR and Novak). Finding Lin and Novak were real strokes of luck. I don’t think we can bank on that every season. The only real difference-making free agent out there right now that we can somewhat ‘afford’ would be Nash, and we’d have to most likely not sign Lin to get him. 60 wins next year? We’ll be a #4 seed at best w/ our core as it stands now.

      To be fair to ruru–
      We were 18-6 since Woody took over, playing with injuries and against a top-10 difficulty schedule. That equates to 61.5 wins over an 82 game season, all while having less continuity (due to many more injuries than most teams, a coaching change, emergence and then injury to Lin, etc.) than most teams. So it’s not all that ridiculous a prediction.

      Here’s an interesting thought. Sure maybe Woody is just rookie-hazing Lin with the starting/not-starting thing. But what if Woody is just giving himself room because he knows a certain Canadian is coming to be the starting PG of the Knicks? Amare is already doing the hard sell.

      And for those who say that Nash would be better off playing for Miami — they already have a problem with 2 guys who need the ball in their hands. I’m not sure that’s a good situation for him, and he loves NYC to boot.

    46. ruruland

      jhaelin:

      So with that long intro let’s get to the numbers…

      In the 19 games that Melo and Lin played together here are the numbers for Melo when the Knicks won (10 games):
      13.88 shots per game, 3.75 assists per game= 3.7 shots/assist

      When the knicks lost, here are Melo’s numbers:
      16.56 shots/game, 2.77 assists/game = 5.98 shots/assist

      Of course we can get more accurate numbers if we consider the stats per minutes played has there were some blow out games…

      Adjusted for minutes played Melo’s numbers looked this way…
      When the knicks won he shot the ball every 2.22 minutes and assisted every 10.05 minutes
      (which gave a ratio of 4.53 shots/assist for 48 minutes played).

      When they lost Melo shot the ball every 2.1 minutes and assisted every 16.4 minutes
      (which gave a ratio of 7.49 shots/assist for 48 minutes played).

      Please draw your own conclusions but it seems clear enough to me that when the shooting less or passing more by Melo has helped the Knicks win.

      You don’t know which one is the causation. Was Melo passing more when their were more opportunities to pass? Was Melo shooting more when the Knicks had difficulties getting into offense and getting other kinds of shots?

    47. jhaelin

      sure if he was playing the same minutes in the games but he wasn’t he played 5 minutes less during the wins. The take home for me is not that the players hit shots or not but that he was more efficient with shots and assists. can it be said that Melo will alway shoot a lot, every 2 minutes but when he played less minutes or passed more they won.

      Nick C.: If he shot the same frequency in wins or losses but assisted less is it possible his teammates just made less shots when the team lost rather than he just passed less.

    48. thenamestsam

      Scorpio Dragon:
      At this point I don’t see anybody stopping the Spurs. They are without a doubt the most complete, deep and disciplined team in the league. Miami might win 2 games against them. I hate to say it but I think only the Celtics (or Memphis if they get it together) have a legitimate shot at stopping that Juggernaut.

      I agree but I think it could be an amazing series. Those teams are so different, but both are extremely strong. I think the main thing that could derail the Spurs is the injury bug. They’re basically fully healthy right now, but their three key guys have a combined age of around 100 and those guys are always injury concerns. It’s important to keep in mind that the finals are still almost a month away. A lot can happen in that time, and the Spurs are more at risk than just about anyone.

    49. The Infamous Cdiggy

      thenamestsam:
      …I don’t want to sound overly bleak, because there is hope for the future but I think some fans tend to get caught up in looking at their teams best case scenario and ignoring that every teams best case scenario is damn good. Look at all the teams that have been bounced from the playoffs so far, and all of them have just as many reasons for optimism as us. We’re saying “If Lin and Shump keep improving we’ll have a really talented nucleus”, but isn’t Utah saying the same thing about Favors, Hayward and Kanter? We’re saying “If Amare and Melo can figure out how to gel, lookout world”, but isn’t Dallas saying the same thing about Dirk and Deron?

      My point isn’t that we should abandon hope, just that we should remember that if hope as defined as “If everything goes to plan and we catch a few lucky breaks, we can be among the contenders in the next few years” then about 75% of the league has hope at any given point in time. And let’s face it, we’re the Knicks. Nothing ever goes according to plan, and we never get the breaks.

      Umm, Jeremy Lin was one HUGE, lottery-draft-pick-level break. Shump-Shump turned into one of the league’s premiere perimeter defenders – as a rookie! The injury toll this season was very unfortunate, and it hurts me – right here – that Shump has to spend the summer rehabbing his knee vs working with Allan Houston on that J. I really think he can be the next Eddie Jones.

      I wouldn’t say that the problem with the Knicks have been “nothing goes according to plan”; such sentiment should go to teams like the Blazers, where injuries helped set the entire franchise back, not just a couple of players. The problem with the Knicks over the past decade has been the planning itself and the people conjuring such planning.

    50. hoolahoop

      Put very simply. If Lebron played Melo’s selfish hero-ball style with lazy defense, and Melo played Lebron’s self-less, ball moving style, with intense defense, the knicks beat the heat.
      No question, the knicks need a real PG. Make all the excuses you want, the knicks have the talent to be an elite team, but they’ll never do it unless Melo changes his style. That ain’t happening.

    51. ruruland

      Will the Thrill:
      I think we will see a major drop in efficiency if we keep this Iso-Joe offense going next year. Hopefully it is just because Lin is out, but even next year it “remains to be seen if he starts” lol Woody

      Atlanta was No.2 in the NBA in offensive efficiency. They also lacked a penetrating point guard. That was the best way for them to score.

      The Lin/Woodson offense was quite balanced/diverse.

    52. johnlocke

      No one doubts the talent…It’s always been a question of whether we have the right mix of talent that fits and the right system that makes 1+1=3. Chandler played with a floor spacing, efficient shooting PF. Amare played with a great pick and roll point guard. Amare and Melo don’t have a symbiotic relationship on the floor… and NO discernable chemistry. Chandler and Amare get in each other’s way out there. Lin is a shoot first point guard. We have a jigsaw puzzle of talent and the pieces don’t really fit. I’m not sure how a summer will change all that. That denver team had great pt guard play, and an efficient JR and efficient Nene and more logical chemistry than the current Knick team I would argue.

      ruruland: You really think so?

      Melo won 54and 53 games in a superior conference with Chauncey Billups as the second best player and no rim-protecting big man, on a team consistently banged up. (He won 50 and 52 with Allen Iverson, no shooting and at least one injured starting big for the whole year)

      Amar’e won 60 games on poor defensive teams.

      Chandler won 56 games on a less talented team than the Knicks have now.

      It’s an upper range estimate, but it’s certainly do-able if things go right — which they’ll have to at some point.

    53. Frank

      I think the Spurs will be a very tough matchup for Miami. They are strongest where Miami is weakest — inside and at the PG position. Chalmers is a good defensive guard but no one can stay in front of Parker. I haven’t watched too much of the Spurs this year, but I guarantee you Pop already has a strategy to counteract the Miami PNR ballhandler hard trap. Plus they have Manu and about 15 guys who shoot the 3.

      On the other side of the ball, the Spurs just do not foul and thus do not bail out the other team (like we did 10000000x this past series).

      I actually think Indy will give Miami a tough series too. Hibbert is a load inside that Miami has no obvious counter for – they may need to double him when he catches in the post. And they have Hill+Dahntay Jones to throw at Wade, and Paul George and Granger to throw at Lebron. Indy is a very deep and talented team, and maybe the only team left except OKC that has the athletes to match Miami.

    54. johnlocke

      The real relevant stretch to point out should be the 7-1 stretch when we had our main weapons healthy…that is promising, but that was right after our coach had just quit on us and we started playing at playoff intensity in the regular season…hope we can replicate that. Also during that time, Melo was still shooting inefficiently and was aware of it, and was actively moving the ball. I just think taking an 8 game sample out of a 66 game season, in a period right after we had every reason to turn up the intensity, is just a bit too rosy in my view.

      Frank: To be fair to ruru–
      We were 18-6 sinceWoody took over, playing with injuries and against a top-10 difficulty schedule. That equates to 61.5 wins over an 82 game season, all while having less continuity (due to many more injuries than most teams, a coaching change, emergence and then injury to Lin, etc.) than most teams. So it’s not all that ridiculous a prediction.

      Here’s an interesting thought.Sure maybe Woody is just rookie-hazing Lin with the starting/not-starting thing.But what if Woody is just giving himself room because he knows a certain Canadian is coming to be the starting PG of the Knicks? Amare is already doing the hard sell.

      And for those who say that Nash would be better off playing for Miami — they already have a problem with 2 guys who need the ball in their hands.I’m not sure that’s a good situation for him, and he loves NYC to boot.

    55. jhaelin

      you’re right just looking at the stats still leaves the chicken or the egg question.
      what is clear is that when they won Melo took less shots and other players made more shots. Was it because the ball moved more or was it because even though there was little movement the other players made the shots or got more open for Melo to pass it to them. Which way did you see it for this season and this lost series against the Miami?

      i wonder what his Denver stats looked like…if studied for shots and assists to wins and losses?

      ruruland: You don’t know which one is the causation. Was Melo passing more when their were more opportunities to pass? Was Melo shooting more when the Knicks had difficulties getting into offense and getting other kinds of shots?

    56. The Infamous Cdiggy

      hoolahoop:
      Put very simply. If Lebron played Melo’s selfish hero-ball style with lazy defense, and Melo played Lebron’s self-less, ball moving style, with intense defense, the knicks beat the heat.
      No question, the knicks need a real PG. Make all the excuses you want, the knicks have the talent to be an elite team, but they’ll never do it unless Melo changes his style. That ain’t happening.

      I couldn’t disagree more with this uber-sour statement.

      Look, Melo is not LeBron. He does not has the court vision LeBron has. Melo can be a passable or good defender when motivated; LeBron can be a superior defender (ask D.Rose). I’d like to see Melo come into next season in better shape, but he’s not quite the physical/athletic specimen LeBron is. You want to say that Melo needs to commit a longer focus to defense and moving the ball, fine… cool. But holding him to LeBron’s standards – please just stop it.

      The Knicks at full strength weren’t going to be favored to win this series against a healthy Heat team. The Knicks were not at full strength. I’m disappointed (as I’m sure you are also) that the season is over for us, but let’s not get over-dramatic with things.

    57. The Infamous Cdiggy

      johnlocke:
      No one doubts the talent…It’s always been a question of whether we have the right mix of talent that fits and the right system that makes 1+1=3.Chandler played with a floor spacing, efficient shooting PF. Amare played with a great pick and roll point guard.Amare and Melo don’t have a symbiotic relationship on the floor… and NO discernablechemistry.Chandler and Amare get in each other’s way out there. Lin is a shoot first point guard. We have a jigsaw puzzle of talent and the pieces don’t really fit. I’m not sure how a summer will change all that. That denver team had great pt guard play, and an efficient JR and efficient Nene and more logical chemistry than the current Knick team I would argue.

      I agree with about everything you said here, but I think it’s too soon to call Lin a shoot-first PG.

    58. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      No one doubts the talent…It’s always been a question of whether we have the right mix of talent that fits and the right system that makes 1+1=3.Chandler played with a floor spacing, efficient shooting PF. Amare played with a great pick and roll point guard.Amare and Melo don’t have a symbiotic relationship on the floor… and NO discernablechemistry.Chandler and Amare get in each other’s way out there. Lin is a shoot first point guard. We have a jigsaw puzzle of talent and the pieces don’t really fit. I’m not sure how a summer will change all that. That denver team had great pt guard play, and an efficient JR and efficient Nene and more logical chemistry than the current Knick team I would argue.

      Melo will work better with a penetrating point guard. Lin’s mindset should change some as he realizes that he needs to be a pass-oriented player — at least I believe he can make that change at this point.

      Amar’e was a +600 TS player over the final 24 games including playoffs (after the 6 days of grieving) — with all lineup combinations.

      He’s making plays he was making last year — physically he’s back to being Amar’e.

      You’re talking about a frontcourt — with a point guard serving to balance the offense— should be high-usage and very efficient overall.

      The question is , can you surround it with shooting?

      With two great ways of creating shots for teammates, the Knicks have to rank higher than 21st in 3pt % next year.

    59. johnlocke

      Carmelo doesn’t agree with Woodson about his conditioning. Melo said he thought he was “in phenomenal shape.” – Al Iannazzone

    60. johnlocke

      That’s fair, he shot less once we got amare and melo back. I do see him though as more in the Tony Parker mold of PT guard, than the Steve Nash. I could be wrong but I think he is happiest when scoring….I still remember his statement about how “my teammates get the game close for me” .. in the win in Indiana/Philly

      The Infamous Cdiggy: I agree with about everything you said here, but I think it’s too soon to call Lin a shoot-first PG.

    61. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      Carmelo doesn’t agree with Woodson about his conditioning. Melo said he thought he was “in phenomenal shape.” – Al Iannazzone

      If Melo was out of shape it was after he came back from injury and being off his feet a few weeks.

    62. thenamestsam

      Frank:

      I actually think Indy will give Miami a tough series too.Hibbert is a load inside that Miami has no obvious counter for – they may need to double him when he catches in the post.And they have Hill+Dahntay Jones to throw at Wade, and Paul George and Granger to throw at Lebron.Indy is a very deep and talented team, and maybe the only team left except OKC that has the athletes to match Miami.

      I think you’re right that Indy is a reasonable defensive matchup for Miami, but go to the other side of the ball. Indy is going to have trouble running anything in this series. Hibbert is something of a tough matchup for Miami, but he averages less than 13 points a game. He’s just not a guy who can carry the load on offense at this point in his career, no matter who the matchup is. Looking quickly at his box scores against the Heat from this year (small sample obviously) his average was even lower than that. Wade, Lebron and Battier are going to swallow up George and Granger, and Haslem is actually a nice matchup on West. I think it’s going to be a real struggle for Indy to score points unless they dominate the offensive glass. Ultimately, I think it will be a fairly tightly contested series because Indy is deeper and they’re going to defend Miami tough for 48 minutes, but in crunch time Miami is going to have the 3 best players on the floor. That’s a pretty huge hurdle to overcome.

    63. johnlocke

      Good point and I’ve noted a few times that my biggest concern next year is that teams will pack the paint, b/c of our lack of three point shooting. We had two reliable three point shooters this season JR (somewhat) and Novak. Melo was good in spurts – but mostly just hot in April. JR is most likely gone. Novak is about 75% gone I think — he’s never had a major pay day and he’ll get one …we lost Extra E for crying out loud. There are not that many free agents out there that we can afford that can spread the floor. Pietrus and Delfino won’t cut it I don’t think. That and whether/how the starting cast improves are the two biggest unknowns entering the season….

      ruruland: Melo will work better with a penetrating point guard. Lin’s mindset should change some as he realizes that he needs to be a pass-oriented player — at least I believe he can make that change at this point.

      Amar’e was a +600 TS player over the final 24 games including playoffs (after the 6 days of grieving) — with all lineup combinations.

      He’s making plays he was making last year — physically he’s back to being Amar’e.

      You’re talking about a frontcourt — with a point guard serving to balance the offense— should be high-usage and very efficient overall.

      The question is , can you surround it with shooting?

      With two great ways of creating shots for teammates, the Knicks have to rank higher than 21st in 3pt % next year.

    64. JK47

      Maybe Marco Belinelli would come here for whatever mini-MLE type exception we have. Career .393 3-point shooter.

    65. thenamestsam

      hoolahoop:
      Put very simply. If Lebron played Melo’s selfish hero-ball style with lazy defense, and Melo played Lebron’s self-less, ball moving style, with intense defense, the knicks beat the heat.
      No question, the knicks need a real PG. Make all the excuses you want, the knicks have the talent to be an elite team, but they’ll never do it unless Melo changes his style. That ain’t happening.

      If your point is that we’d be better with Lebron than Melo, that’s a trivial point. Everyone knows it. Even ruru wouldn’t argue with you there. But to act like Melo just doesn’t play like that cause he’s selfish and a dick is dumb. Melo can’t play like Lebron. He doesn’t have the vision, the passing ability or the athleticism that make Lebron the player he is (Of course there are things Melo can do that Lebron can’t, but that’s neither here nor there). If you want Melo to be Lebron you’re going to be waiting forever.

    66. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      Good point and I’ve noted a few times that my biggest concern next year is that teams will pack the paint, b/c of our lack of three point shooting. We had two reliable three point shooters this season JR (somewhat) and Novak. Melo was good in spurts – but mostly just hot in April.JR is most likely gone. Novak is about 75% gone I think — he’s never had a major pay day and he’ll get one …we lost Extra E for crying out loud. There are not that many free agents out there that we can afford that can spread the floor. Pietrus and Delfino won’t cut it I don’t think.That and whether/how the starting cast improves are the two biggest unknowns entering the season….

      JR was 35% from 3 this year, .407 overall.

      Delfino has been between 360-380 the last 4 years and can drive on rotation — solid defender as well.

      Prior to this year Pietrus shot between 360-388 the last 5 years with a 590 TS in Golden State…..

      Both are low-usage opportunity offensive players that can defend— those are the kind of role players you want.

      Both are certainly better overall than Steve Novak, for example.

    67. ruruland

      thenamestsam: If your point is that we’d be better with Lebron than Melo, that’s a trivial point. Everyone knows it. Even ruru wouldn’t argue with you there. But to act like Melo just doesn’t play like that cause he’s selfish and a dick is dumb. Melo can’t play like Lebron. He doesn’t have the vision, the passing ability or the athleticism that make Lebron the player he is (Of course there are things Melo can do that Lebron can’t, but that’s neither here nor there). If you want Melo to be Lebron you’re going to be waiting forever.

      Lebron does things that no one else has EVER been able to do — never been a player like him in terms of total package.

      Now, when the offense was more balanced we saw what kind of defense Melo can play…. He’s a passer out of doubles and when he gets weakside kicks.

    68. KnickfaninNJ

      Woodson may have not committed to having Lin as starting point guard because he hasn’t seen how well Lin plays after he returns. Lots of players get injured and then come back and aren’t the same. Allan Houston was never the same after his final surgery for example. Knee injuries can recover and be pain free, but still not have the flexibility or quickness they used to.

    69. hoolahoop

      The Infamous Cdiggy: I couldn’t disagree more with this uber-sour statement.

      Look, Melo is not LeBron.He does not has the court vision LeBron has.Melo can be a passable or good defender when motivated; LeBron can be a superior defender (ask D.Rose).I’d like to see Melo come into next season in better shape, but he’s not quite the physical/athletic specimen LeBron is.You want to say that Melo needs to commit a longer focus to defense and moving the ball, fine… cool.But holding him to LeBron’s standards – please just stop it.

      The Knicks at full strength weren’t going to be favored to win this series against a healthy Heat team.The Knicks were not at full strength.I’m disappointed (as I’m sure you are also) that the season is over for us, but let’s not get over-dramatic with things.

      I understand no one is Lebron. My point is about attitude and focus. Lebron understands the value of team play. Melo is hero-baller. There’s a low ceiling with that style of play.

    70. hoolahoop

      ruruland: If Melo was out of shape it was after he came back from injury and being off his feet a few weeks.

      Ruland, now that the season is over, why don’t you come clean.
      Are you paid by a PR company, by Melo, or who? What’s your job, objective, etc. No one would do what you do without a reason.

    71. thenamestsam

      ruruland: Lebron does things that no one else has EVER been able to do — never been a player like him in terms of total package.

      Now, when the offense was more balanced we saw what kind of defense Melo can play…. He’s a passer out of doubles and when he gets weakside kicks.

      Totally agree. Has there ever been a PG capable of that rejection that Lebron put on Chandler last night? I certainly can’t think of one. He’s completely unique. If you want Melo to be him it’ll never happen. That doesn’t mean you can’t win with Melo. Teams have been winning without Lebron since he came in the league.

    72. TelegraphedPass

      Lack of ball movement doesn’t seem to be killing OKC’s chances at a title.

    73. johnlocke

      Novak had a 68% TS this year. Pietrus could be a good be a nice piece for defensive purposes… but his shooting has absolutely nose-dived over the last few years. That 59% TS was 6 years ago. Delfino is decent from the corners on three. Neither are knock down 3 pt shooters (streaky perhaps) and both are just at 40% from the field. Neither of these guys would strike fear into the heart of the defense to get us spacing we need and would be marginal rotation players. Difference makers (who we most likely can’t afford) would be Ray Allen, Kirk Hinrich, Goran Dragic, Steve Nash). Other marginal options — Anthony Parker, Jason Kidd, Goran Dragic, Nick Young, Shannon Brown, Bellinelli). Just not a lot of great options in our price range.

      ruruland: JR was 35% from 3 this year, .407 overall.

      Delfino has been between 360-380 the last 4 years and can drive on rotation — solid defender as well.

      Prior to this year Pietrus shot between 360-388 the last 5 years with a 590 TS in Golden State…..

      Both are low-usage opportunity offensive players that can defend— those are the kind of role players you want.

      Both are certainly better overall than Steve Novak, for example.

    74. d-mar

      hoolahoop: Ruland, now that the season is over, why don’t you come clean.
      Are you paid by a PR company, by Melo, or who? What’s your job, objective, etc. No one would do what you do without a reason.

      You’re being ridiculous. I for one enjoy reading ruruland’s posts. Yes, he can be a little defensive when it comes to Melo, but that’s really a byproduct of certain posters blaming Melo for all of the Knicks shortcomings, and the incessant drumbeat of “he doesn’t play defense” “he never gets out of the 1st round” “he doesn’t make other players better”. And now it’s “he’s no LeBron James”

      Keep posting, ruru, whether people agree with you or not, it’s a good counterbalance to people who pine for the glory days of Gallinari, Chandler, Felton and Mozgov.

    75. ruruland

      thenamestsam: Totally agree. Has there ever been a PG capable of that rejection that Lebron put on Chandler last night? I certainly can’t think of one. He’s completely unique. If you want Melo to be him it’ll never happen. That doesn’t mean you can’t win with Melo. Teams have been winning without Lebron since he came in the league.

      Lebron can individually dominate 5 positions on defense (the one guy he might not be able to cover in the league is Bynum, but he’s covered Howard well) — he’s shut down Rose/Williams and Gasol……

      The only guys who can beat him are supremely talented shot-makers like Kobe, Melo, Durant and Wade.

      A true once-in-a-lifetime player. Not as great of a passer as Magic was — but can post up and dominate inside like he could…. Finish like Michael and a relatively efficient jump shooter.

      Doesn’t quite have the mental make-up of Magic or Michael, but physically he might be the greatest athlete in any sport… ever.

      6’8” 275 that can run a 4.3, a 45 inch vert — never seen a guy that big packed with so much fast twitch muscle fiber.

    76. bobneptune

      TelegraphedPass: o u right great point shaq we obvi lost cuz of smiling NO MORE SMILING

      shaq iz rite! he was using code language for melo got his 35 points and his max salary, so everything is hunky-dorry and happy time abounds. winning is secondary to the more important things in life!

      that’s what my shaq-fu secret decoder ring told me……

    77. ruruland

      d-mar: You’re being ridiculous. I for one enjoy reading ruruland’s posts. Yes, he can be a little defensive when it comes to Melo, but that’s really a byproduct of certain posters blaming Melo for all of the Knicks shortcomings, and the incessant drumbeat of “he doesn’t play defense” “he never gets out of the 1st round” “he doesn’t make other players better”. And now it’s “he’s no LeBron James”

      Keep posting, ruru, whether people agree with you or not, it’s a good counterbalance to people who pine for the glory days of Gallinari, Chandler, Felton and Mozgov.

      Thanks. I’m just ignoring those posts now.

    78. bobneptune

      TelegraphedPass:
      True champions, like Magic Johnson and Hakeem Olajuwon, never smiled. That’s how they won multiple titles.

      If Melo smiled less, he’d have made more shots.

      i don’t remember them yucking it up after getting banged for their 8th playoff loss in 9 tries……

    79. ruruland

      bobneptune: i don’t remember them yucking it up after getting banged for their 8th playoff loss in 9 tries……

      Yucking it up, really?

    80. Scorpio Dragon

      Melo played very good defense in the series. It’s just that his main assignment was LeBron James!

      In the end they kinda just cancelled each other out. The Knicks were just not that good

    81. ruruland

      ruruland: Lebron can individually dominate 5 positions on defense (the one guy he might not be able to cover in the league is Bynum, but he’s covered Howard well) — he’s shut down Rose/Williams and Gasol……

      The only guys who can beat him are supremely talented shot-makers like Kobe, Melo, Durant and Wade.

      A true once-in-a-lifetime player. Not as great of a passer as Magic was — but can post up and dominate inside like he could…. Finish like Michael and a relatively efficient jump shooter.

      Doesn’t quite have the mental make-up of Magic or Michael, but physically he might be the greatest athlete in any sport… ever.

      6’8” 275 that can run a 4.3, a 45 inch vert — never seen a guy that big packed with so much fast twitch muscle fiber.

      Bill Braaasky!

    82. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: i don’t remember them yucking it up after getting banged for their 8th playoff loss in 9 tries……

      So you honestly believe Shaq’s apparent assertion that smiling and friendship is partly to blame for Melo’s lack of postseason success?

    83. Frank

      Re: Novak – I actually was pretty impressed with his defense. I don’t think he’s as much a 1 trick pony as Korver and Kapono are.

      My absolute dream would be for Lin to agree to come back for the biannual, sign Nash to the MLE, say buh-bye to Novak and JR. Nash solves your 3 point shooting issue, your Amare issue, and has the superstar clout to calm Melo’s iso tendencies.

      PG: Nash, Lin (26 min/22 min)
      SG: Shump, Fields, Toney
      SF: Melo, Pietrus/Delfino
      PF: Amare, Jeffries (resigns for vet’s min)
      C: Chandler, Harrellson, Jorts

      Draft a stretch 4 or a backcourt defender-type.
      Stay healthy.
      Eastern conference finals at least.

    84. Frank

      ruruland:
      6’8” 275 that can run a 4.3, a 45 inch vert — never seen a guy that big packed with so much fast twitch muscle fiber.

      I really hate to go there but I would love to see the results of a pop synthetic HGH test around the league. These dudes are just so freaking big and fast. Feels a little “artificial” if you know what I mean.

    85. yellowboy90

      Scorpio Dragon:
      Melo played very good defense in the series. It’s just that his main assignment was LeBron James!

      In the end they kinda just cancelled each other out. The Knicks were just not that good

      I’ll take it a step further and will say Anthony guarded James better than James guarded Anthony. Besides transition most of James points came when guarded by someone else. Yes, James got the better of Anthony on occasions but that usually came later in the games(which still counts) after trading off with Battier. The TNT guys made a stupid comment that most of Melo’s points came off of Battier than James but he made as many baskets at a higher percent against James.

    86. Frank

      btw, Nash is now retweeting people asking him to come to NYC. That would really be freaking awesome.

    87. yellowboy90

      Frank:
      Re: Novak – I actually was pretty impressed with his defense. I don’t think he’s as much a 1 trick pony as Korver and Kapono are.

      My absolute dream would be for Lin to agree to come back for the biannual, sign Nash to the MLE, say buh-bye to Novak and JR.Nash solves your 3 point shooting issue, your Amare issue, and has the superstar clout to calm Melo’s iso tendencies.

      PG: Nash, Lin (26 min/22 min)
      SG: Shump, Fields, Toney
      SF: Melo, Pietrus/Delfino
      PF: Amare, Jeffries (resigns for vet’s min)
      C: Chandler, Harrellson, Jorts

      Draft a stretch 4 or a backcourt defender-type.
      Stay healthy.
      Eastern conference finals at least.

      is Jorts the Stefan Urkel version of Harrelson (Steven Urkel)? You mention him twice. lol. I like Jorts at the 4 if he loses weight and would really work with Jerome Jordan as a back up C. If not maybe see if Jaminson would be interested in signing for the Min.

    88. TelegraphedPass

      Frank: btw, Nash is now retweeting people asking him to come to NYC. That would really be freaking awesome.

      !!!!!!!

    89. ruruland

      Frank: I really hate to go there but I would love to see the results of a pop synthetic HGH test around the league.These dudes are just so freaking big and fast.Feels a little “artificial” if you know what I mean.

      I wouldn’t be shocked. There are some absolute mutants in the league currently.

    90. bobneptune

      ruruland: I think with the right pieces around Melo,Chandler,Amar’e and Lin 60 wins isn’t totally unreasonable.

      wow…. do you have any idea how hard it is to win 60 games in a season? in the 63 years of the nba there have only been 63 teams total with 60 or more wins in a season?

      here’s a new theme song for those with the rose colored spectacles:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpFxhQ9KEYc

      60 bleepin wins….. wow

    91. Will the Thrill

      Who would we have to get rid of to get Nash here? Would giving up Lin be our only chance?

      Frank:
      btw, Nash is now retweeting people asking him to come to NYC.That would really be freaking awesome.

    92. Juany8

      hoolahoop: I understand no one is Lebron. My point is about attitude and focus. Lebron understands the value of team play. Melo is hero-baller. There’s a low ceiling with that style of play.

      Every time I read statements like this I just look back at Kobe’s career and laugh. Now Melo might not win a ring since he’s not as good as Kobe (and nobody he’s ever played with is close to as good as Shaq, Gasol, or Bynum) but to act like playing “Hero Ball” specifically ruins your chances of winning is to ignore very recent history. I don’t think you can say it’s Melo’s fault the Knicks lost to the Heat when he was by far their best player, Chandler was pretty awful this series (excused or not) and most of the anti-Melo crowd would claim he is the team’s clear cut best player.

    93. thenamestsam

      ruruland: Lebron can individually dominate 5 positions on defense (the one guy he might not be able to cover in the league is Bynum, but he’s covered Howard well) — he’s shut down Rose/Williams and Gasol……

      The only guys who can beat him are supremely talented shot-makers like Kobe, Melo, Durant and Wade.

      Doesn’t quite have the mental make-up of Magic or Michael, but physically he might be the greatest athlete in any sport… ever.

      He takes a lot of heat, but I don’t see how it’s possible to not enjoy his game if you like basketball. He reminds me in a way of a young ARod in that he just seems like he was built to play basketball the same way ARod was built to play baseball. Capable of dominating every phase of the game. He’s the basketball equivalent of a 5-tool player.

      As for defensive matchups I hope he gets a chance to try his hand at guarding Parker if they meet the Spurs in the finals. I think TP could give him trouble the way he’s been playing this year. So quick and slippery.

      On the mental makeup point I think that’s fair, but I also think it’s important to recognize how much more difficult that side of the game has become since Magic and Michael and even Kobe were doing their thing. Michael got accused of not knowing how to win in his early years, but the amount of stuff thrown at him then wasn’t anywhere near what it is now. Twitter especially has made a huge difference in that regard in my opinion. Whatever people were saying about Michael in his early days he was relatively isolated from it. Now when Lebron picks up his phone after the game he sees everything people are tweeting about him immediately. Can you imagine how much that must mess with your head? Look at JR last night, and that wasn’t 1% of the scrutiny Lebron has faced after his tough moments. Could Michael have handled it? Probably, but we’ll never know.

    94. ruruland

      bobneptune: wow…. do you have any idea how hard it is to win 60 games in a season? in the 63 years of the nba there have only been 63 teams total with 60 or more wins in a season?

      here’s a new theme song for those with the rose colored spectacles:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpFxhQ9KEYc

      60 bleepin wins….. wow

      Really not that big of a deal. Just need to have a really good team that stays healthy. The Knicks can be a really good team.

      A lot of really good teams haven’t stayed healthy all year, a lot of really good teams won in the 56-59 area.

    95. Juany8

      yellowboy90: I’ll take it a step further and will say Anthony guarded James better than James guarded Anthony. Besides transition most of James points came when guarded by someone else. Yes, James got the better of Anthony on occasions but that usually came later in the games(which still counts) after trading off with Battier. The TNT guys made a stupid comment that most of Melo’s points came off of Battier than James but he made as many baskets at a higher percent against James.

      Novak, Chandler, and JR all player far below their season standards, Shump, Baron, and STAT were injured, Jeffries was getting 5 minutes a game, and Toney Douglas got playing time. Melo could have played better, but he would have needed to put up Jordan numbers against the Heat for the Knicks to even have a chance. It’s really not fair to pile on at this point

    96. Frank

      Will the Thrill:
      Who would we have to get rid of to get Nash here? Would giving up Lin be our only chance?

      Depends on whether Nash or Lin are willing to take less $. If either is willing to take the biannual exception (or even better, split the MLE between them which would leave us the BAE for someone else like Novak), we could have both.

      If Nash is just looking for $, I’m pretty sure he can get more elsewhere. I would hope that, having made $120MM already in his career, he has other things (like title contention) in mind. His addition would solidly put us into “serious contender” mode.

    97. Shad0wF0x

      Frank:
      Re: Novak – I actually was pretty impressed with his defense. I don’t think he’s as much a 1 trick pony as Korver and Kapono are.

      My absolute dream would be for Lin to agree to come back for the biannual, sign Nash to the MLE, say buh-bye to Novak and JR.Nash solves your 3 point shooting issue, your Amare issue, and has the superstar clout to calm Melo’s iso tendencies.

      PG: Nash, Lin (26 min/22 min)
      SG: Shump, Fields, Toney
      SF: Melo, Pietrus/Delfino
      PF: Amare, Jeffries (resigns for vet’s min)
      C: Chandler, Harrellson, Jorts

      Draft a stretch 4 or a backcourt defender-type.
      Stay healthy.
      Eastern conference finals at least.

      Sign me up for that as the Knicks 2013 roster. At the very least it’ll probably be fun to watch.

    98. TelegraphedPass

      Will the Thrill: Who would we have to get rid of to get Nash here? Would giving up Lin be our only chance?

      Sure seems that way. The most we can offer Nash is the MLE worth about $5.7m per year. He probably wants a 2 or 3 year deal as well. If we use the MLE on Nash, assuming he would even consider it, then the most we can offer Lin is $2m BAE. At that price, another team would almost certainly steal him away.

      It would seem to be a choice between Lin and Nash.

    99. Will the Thrill

      He is our best player, and that is our problem lol He, specifically wasn’t the problem, besides thinking he is better than he is sometimes. But since we have no cap room and a team with little flexibility where he is our best player, people have a tendency to blame the best player (because he wouldn’t be the best player on a championship team, unless that team is truly stacked with a Melo-style team).

      Juany8: I don’t think you can say it’s Melo’s fault the Knicks lost to the Heat when he was by far their best player, Chandler was pretty awful this series (excused or not) and most of the anti-Melo crowd would claim he is the team’s clear cut best player.

    100. ruruland

      thenamestsam: He takes a lot of heat, but I don’t see how it’s possible to not enjoy his game if you like basketball. He reminds me in a way of a young ARod in that he just seems like he was built to play basketball the same way ARod was built to play baseball. Capable of dominating every phase of the game. He’s the basketball equivalent of a 5-tool player.

      As for defensive matchups I hope he gets a chance to try his hand at guarding Parker if they meet the Spurs in the finals. I think TP could give him trouble the way he’s been playing this year. So quick and slippery.

      On the mental makeup point I think that’s fair, but I also think it’s important to recognize how much more difficult that side of the game has become since Magic and Michael and even Kobe were doing their thing. Michael got accused of not knowing how to win in his early years, but the amount of stuff thrown at him then wasn’t anywhere near what it is now. Twitter especially has made a huge difference in that regard in my opinion. Whatever people were saying about Michael in his early days he was relatively isolated from it. Now when Lebron picks up his phone after the game he sees everything people are tweeting about him immediately. Can you imagine how much that must mess with your head? Look at JR last night, and that wasn’t 1% of the scrutiny Lebron has faced after his tough moments. Could Michael have handled it? Probably, but we’ll never know.

      Yeah, I agree. Totally different now.

    101. johnlocke

      Asked what he can improve on, Anthony replied, ”I can’t really say right now.” said he wants time to reflect and watch film. — Allan I.

      Chandler said he needs to help the team more offensively… Yay!

      Really wondering what Amare would say >> He thought last season he should work on shooting 3 pointers better…so who knows what he’s thinking.

    102. bobneptune

      TelegraphedPass: So you honestly believe Shaq’s apparent assertion that smiling and friendship is partly to blame for Melo’s lack of postseason success?

      i took his comments to mean melo’s smiling and laughing after getting clubbed like a baby seal for the second consecutive year showed as long as he continues to get his (points and money) he won’t do the things necessary to make others around him better.

    103. Will the Thrill

      If we have to choose between Nash and Lin, and if Lin’s knee shows no signs of slowing down, I would have to choose Lin. The 15 year age discrepancy is too much to overcome. Although I am kind of torn between whether if a team with Melo, Amare, and Chandler can win anything significant with someone below the status of Nash.

    104. TelegraphedPass

      johnlocke: Really wondering what Amare would say >> He thought last season he should work on shooting 3 pointers better…so who knows what he’s thinking.

      That’s a Mike D’Antoniism. DA loves him some stretch 4s.

    105. ruruland

      bobneptune: i took his comments to mean melo’s smiling and laughing after getting clubbed like a baby seal for the second consecutive year showed as long as he continues to get his (points and money) he won’t do the things necessary to make others around him better.

      Logic.

    106. Will the Thrill

      Does anyone remember the first couple games this season when Stat was actually hitting 3’s? Then after that, he couldn’t hit any jumpers whatsoever for months, weird.

    107. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: i took his comments to mean melo’s smiling and laughing after getting clubbed like a baby seal for the second consecutive year showed as long as he continues to get his (points and money) he won’t do the things necessary to make others around him better.

      Except raise his assist totals significantly compared to any other year of his career?

      What does smiling have to do with effort? Did you honestly come away from that game thinking Melo didn’t try hard enough to win? You think with more effort a Bibby/Fields/Melo/One-Handed STAT/Chandler line-up would beat Miami???

      That just smells of zzzzz-worthy narrative.

    108. ruruland

      Will the Thrill:
      If we have to choose between Nash and Lin, and if Lin’s knee shows no signs of slowing down, I would have to choose Lin. The 15 year age discrepancy is too much to overcome.Although I am kind of torn between whether if a team with Melo, Amare, and Chandler can win anything significant with someone below the status of Nash.

      Why do you think that?

      They just played a somewhat competitive series against the best ball-pressure team in the non-hand-check era without an NBA point guard.

      Give me a solid point guard, like Lin, who can make Miami pay for overplay — you have a totally different dynamic.

      $213 million frontcourt isn’t worth much if you don’t have a point guard.

    109. TelegraphedPass

      btw, when did it become okay for Shaquille “Me and Kobe had beef because I didn’t devote significant time to practice” O’Neal to make judgements regarding other players’ motivation?

      This is the same guy who dipped out of Orlando because they wouldn’t offer him the same size contract they gave Penny Hardaway.

    110. JK47

      Outside of Melo, what other Knick played well in this series? Not a one. Amar’e was okay I guess. Everybody else sucked giant ass. The third best player after Melo and Amar’e was probably Bibby. Now that is a sad state of affairs.

    111. TelegraphedPass

      TelegraphedPass: btw, when did it become okay for Shaquille “Me and Kobe had beef because I didn’t devote significant time to practice” O’Neal to make judgements regarding other players’ motivation?This is the same guy who dipped out of Orlando because they wouldn’t offer him the same size contract they gave Penny Hardaway.

      Also the same guy who spent time before the ASB a couple years back choreographing a dance routine with the Jabbawockeez.

    112. TelegraphedPass

      JK47: Outside of Melo, what other Knick played well in this series? Not a one. Amar’e was okay I guess. Everybody else sucked giant ass. The third best player after Melo and Amar’e was probably Bibby. Now that is a sad state of affairs.

      Melo played well?

    113. johnlocke

      Carmelo was without a doubt our best player but he deserves his share of the blame also. His playoff performance has historically been lower than his regular season performance and this was no different. He only had 2 good games in this 5 game series. He shot at his normal playoff career FG% of 41.9% and shot the three at 22% (after shooting it at 46% in April). He averaged 2.2 assists (below his average of 3.0 for his playoff career). What he did this series is pretty much the same as his average playoff series except he shot the three worse, shot FTs worse, rebounded a little better, and averaged less assists. He averaged 28, but on inconsistent scoring and shooting %s — he scored 11, 30, 22, 41 and 35. He needed to be close to April play for us to have any chance, but wasn’t. He played against a great defense, but amazing how similar his numbers where to his underwhelming career playoff stats. Not piling on, just pointing out that he was our one bright light, but even he wasn’t that great.

      http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1975/seasontype/3/carmelo-anthony

      Juany8: Novak, Chandler, and JR all player far below their season standards, Shump, Baron, and STAT were injured, Jeffries was getting 5 minutes a game, and Toney Douglas got playing time. Melo could have played better, but he would have needed to put up Jordan numbers against the Heat for the Knicks to even have a chance. It’s really not fair to pile on at this point

    114. JK47

      TelegraphedPass: Melo played well?

      He at least didn’t play disastrously badly, unlike most of the players we ran out there. Our best guard, by a mile, was Mike Bibby.

    115. johnlocke

      When Lin played Miami they made him and the Knicks pay…not the other way around and I believe Melo and Amare played in that game

      ruruland: Why do you think that?

      They just played a somewhat competitive series against the best ball-pressure team in the non-hand-check era without an NBA point guard.

      Give me a solid point guard, like Lin, who can make Miami pay for overplay — you have a totally different dynamic.

      $213 million frontcourt isn’t worth much if you don’t have a point guard.

    116. johnlocke

      That would be awesome…doubt Lin takes the biannual (like HIGHLY doubt)…but Lin has and could play off the ball w/ Nash.

      Frank:
      btw, Nash is now retweeting people asking him to come to NYC.That would really be freaking awesome.

    117. TelegraphedPass

      Unlike some here I don’t really hate the Heat. I don’t see them as villians and never did.

      That said, I can’t express how weird it would be to see Steve Nash suit up as a member of the Miami Heat. The first time he wears the all black everything uni I’m going to have Emperor Palpatine flashbacks.

    118. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      When Lin played Miami they made him and the Knicks pay…not the other way around and I believe Melo and Amare played in that game

      Right, I understand that. That was a new experience for Lin. That was MDA 4-out offense though, trapped the hell out of him. Melo would take advantage of that kind of defense — vice versa.

    119. bobneptune

      TelegraphedPass: Sure seems that way. The most we can offer Nash is the MLE worth about $5.7m per year. He probably wants a 2 or 3 year deal as well. If we use the MLE on Nash, assuming he would even consider it, then the most we can offer Lin is $2m BAE. At that price, another team would almost certainly steal him away.

      It would seem to be a choice between Lin and Nash.

      hmmmmmmm……. basketball wins vs marketing opportunities in china?

      which way do you think dolan will go….. lol!

    120. ruruland

      JK47: He at least didn’t play disastrously badly, unlike most of the players we ran out there.Our best guard, by a mile, was Mike Bibby.

      He was also the lone focal point of the Heat’s defense — and was guarded by not just their three best man defenders — but easily the best trio in the NBA.

      On balanced offenses that don’t double team Melo you attack the Heat in other ways and allow Melo to attack from the weakside.

    121. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: hmmmmmmm……. basketball wins vs marketing opportunities in china?which way do you think dolan will go….. lol!

      Your comments seem to reveal a very polar nature of thinking.

      LeBron=Good vs Melo=Bad

      Nash=Wins vs Lin=Money.

      This is just way too simple a way to look at it. It isn’t a given that a 39 year old Steve Nash would be more valuable and contribute more wins than Jeremy Lin would.

      To express it as money vs wins is inaccurate.

    122. Nick C.

      ruruland: He was also the lone focal point of the Heat’s defense — and was guarded by not just their three best man defenders — but easily the best trio in the NBA.On balanced offenses that don’t double team Melo you attack the Heat in other ways and allow Melo to attack from the weakside.

      Doesn’t say much for Novak if Melo has this much attention and still he couldn’t get open or open enough to get his shot off.

    123. TelegraphedPass

      Nick C.: Doesn’t say much for Novak if Melo has this much attention and still he couldn’t get open or open enough to get his shot off.

      Says even less about Woody’s offensive sets that Novak rarely found himself on the end of the chain when Melo reversed the ball out of the double team.

    124. bobneptune

      TelegraphedPass: Your comments seem to reveal a very polar nature of thinking.

      LeBron=Good vs Melo=Bad

      Nash=Wins vs Lin=Money.

      This is just way too simple a way to look at it. It isn’t a given that a 39 year old Steve Nash would be more valuable and contribute more wins than Jeremy Lin would.

      To express it as money vs wins is inaccurate.

      r u serious…. it isn’t a given that nash would contribute more to winning over the next 2-3 years than lin? is this a trick question or dr spok-esque 3 dimensional chess?

      where is the reasonable scenario where nash is less valuable than lin. quick answer…. there isn’t one

      if dolan has a choice between nash and lin and choses lin…. it can only be about the marketing because the knicks are constructed as a now team, not a team for 5 years in the future.

      and as far as melo = bad and lebron = good, that’s not true at all.

      melo is a terrific scorer. lebron is a terrific all around basketball player who is the best player in the league who makes the players around him much better.

      i mean this isn’t even arguable.

    125. ruruland

      Nick C.: Doesn’t say much for Novak if Melo has this much attention and still he couldn’t get open or open enough to get his shot off.

      They weren’t leaving him and they weren’t giving him airspace.

      When you don’t have an inside-out game or penetration game, you’re an immobile player who hasn’t shot inside 10 feet all season, and you’re playing the fastest defense in the NBA — that’s what happens.

      There is no play you can draw up to get Novak shots in said situation– you don’t have to respect his ability to get a step, nor do you have to overhelp on penetration elsewhere.

      Look how bad Anderson has been post-Dwight, especially in the playoffs.

    126. ephus

      Here is Sam Amick’s preview of the Knicks’ offseason:

      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/05/10/knicks/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a0

      Amick speculates that Landry Fields could be gone if another team signs him to a major offer sheet. Hahn has tweeted that he doubts that Fields will get a major offer sheet from anyone else. If Fields is offered anything beyond the mini-MLE ($3.1 million/year), I will be shocked if the Knicks match.

      Hahn gets it wrong, however, in saying that the Knicks best case scenario for teaming Lin/Nash is to have Lin accept a QO for one year. The problem is that if Lin signs for just one year, the Knicks will not be protected by the Gilbert Arenas provision after next season, so other teams would be able to offer above the MLE for Line post-2013 and the Knicks would not be able to match.

      If the Knicks wanted to pair Lin and Nash, their best route would be to have Lin accept the Biannual and Nash take a 3 year MLE. After two years, Lin would become a UFA with the Knicks holding Full Bird Rights. If you assume that Lin will get at least a two year competing bid at the MLE, he would be giving up about $6 million over two years to play behind/with Nash.

      I question whether the Nash/Lin/Shumpert backcourt would work defensively. If you divided the minutes equally among the three, Nash/Lin would be on the court together for at least 8 minutes. I do not see Lin being able to cover the top SGs. Nash certainly could not.

    127. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass: Says even less about Woody’s offensive sets that Novak rarely found himself on the end of the chain when Melo reversed the ball out of the double team.

      They didn’t double all that frequently, and they recovered extremely well out of double teams — they destroyed passing lanes…..

      You don’t get shooters shots when playing GREAT defenses when you lack those two things….

      Collison should make a nice difference for Indiana — who has more drive guys on their team— but Miami will shut them down, too.

    128. JK47

      Steve Nash is 37. He’s still a very fine player, but that WS/48 is starting to slip:

      Age 35: .178
      Age 36: .153
      Age 37: .144

      Jeremy Lin is 23 years old and had a .140 WS/48 in his first extended exposure in the NBA. It is entirely possible that Lin could continue to build on his game and bump that WS/48 score higher, and it’s also possible that Nash could continue to slip.

      I’d personally rather invest in the commodity that is likely to improve versus the one that is almost certain to decline.

    129. d-mar

      If we have the chance to get Steve Nash, we have to figure out a way to make it happen. This year the Suns were 33-33 with Nash, Hill, Dudley, Gortat, Frye and Shannon Brown as their primary 6 guys. Read that list again, and tell me how did they win 33 games in the Western Conference? Yes, Nash is getting old, and yes, it’s a short term fix, but he would make our offense HUM like we’ve never seen it before.And I truly believe that this roster with a legit star PG could give the Heat a run for their money.

      I loves me some Lin, but sorry Jeremy, there’s only one Steve Nash.

    130. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: r u serious…. it isn’t a given that nash would contribute more to winning over the next 2-3 years than lin? is this a trick question or dr spok-esque 3 dimensional chess?where is the reasonable scenario where nash is less valuable than lin. quick answer…. there isn’t oneif dolan has a choice between nash and lin and choses lin…. it can only be about the marketing because the knicks are constructed as a now team, not a team for 5 years in the future.and as far as melo = bad and lebron = good, that’s not true at all.melo is a terrific scorer. lebron is a terrific all around basketball player who is the best player in the league who makes the players around him much better.i mean this isn’t even arguable.

      I’m of course aware that Nash is better than Lin right now. That’s easy. How long do you expect that to be the case? Players don’t tend to gradually drop off; they hit a wall at a certain point and can’t perform at their previous levels. You think it’s a guarantee that 39, 40, and 41 year old Nash will be more effective than 23, 24, and 25 year old Jeremy Lin?

      And as far as Melo vs LBJ I was just going off of what your statements sounded like. That doesn’t seem to reflect your actual thinking tho, which is good.

    131. ephus

      ruruland: There is no play you can draw up to get Novak shots in said situation– you don’t have to respect his ability to get a step, nor do you have to overhelp on penetration elsewhere.

      Pick and pop with Novak/Smith or Novak/Melo would be worth a try. At worst, you draw 3 defenders, which gets someone a wide-open look.

      Another choice would have been to have Novak feed Melo in the post, with the other three players clearing out.

      Of course, these are just ways of simulating a penetration game or an inside-outside game.

      Finally, I do not understand why the Knicks went away from having Chandler flash to the high post from the PnR and then distribute to the open wing when the rotation came. The Knicks ran that action successfully twice during the first quarter (getting Bibby his open 3s), but never again after that. Did Miami make an adjustment that I did not see?

    132. johnlocke

      Jeremy Lin: “My biggest fear is coming back … and being as good. That’s my biggest fear. I need to be a lot better.” – HowardBeck

      TelegraphedPass: I’m of course aware that Nash is better than Lin right now. That’s easy. How long do you expect that to be the case? Players don’t tend to gradually drop off; they hit a wall at a certain point and can’t perform at their previous levels. You think it’s a guarantee that 39, 40, and 41 year old Nash will be more effective than 23, 24, and 25 year old Jeremy Lin?

      And as far as Melo vs LBJ I was just going off of what your statements sounded like. That doesn’t seem to reflect your actual thinking tho, which is good.

    133. Brian Cronin

      My concern with Nash is just that he might fall off a cliff this season. That’s why a team like Miami sounds like a great fit for him, because they wouldn’t be expecting all that much from him, as Chalmers would be there to play a lot of minutes. But yeah, if Nash plays as well in 2012-13 as he did in 2011-12, then he is definitely a better point guard than Lin. And one of the best things about Nash is that you really never have to worry about “fitting him in” to your offense, because if he is on your team then he will do whatever he wants when he is in the game (and you want him to do that, as he is awesome).

      I don’t see how Lin would possibly not take a Mid-Level offer from another team over taking the Bi-Annual from the Knicks, so I think it has to be an “either or” situation. I’d probably take Nash over Lin at this point, if only because I don’t know what Woodson’s offense will do to Lin while I know there’s nothing Woodson can do to ruin Nash.

      As for Fields, yeah, Amick totally exaggerated the effect of the $74 million “cap” on the Knicks’ free agency options this year. If someone does sign Fields to the mid-level, then yes, the Knicks will let him go, but no team is signing Landry Fields to the mid-level. They just aren’t. An interesting question is how high another team will go and how high will the Knicks match. Will they match a $3 million offer? I bet they would, but it is no lock. If no team signs him to an offer sheet, I think if I’m Fields I just play for the qualifying offer then either re-establish my value in 2012-13 and get away from Woodson or go somewhere else to re-establish my value in 2013-14 by getting away from Woodson (the Fields/Woodson relationship is a bizarre one).

      As to Frank’s question from earlier in the thread, if the Knicks do not have the MLE available then they cannot use it on Lin. It is one of the drawbacks of the Gilbert Arenas Provision – if you don’t have the MLE to use, you are kind of screwed.

    134. TelegraphedPass

      Um. Just noticed Melo posted a .97 PPP shooting >50% as the PnR ball handler this year. I know STAT sets really weak screens but more 3-4 PnR plz?????

    135. TelegraphedPass

      johnlocke: Jeremy Lin: “My biggest fear is coming back … and being as good. That’s my biggest fear. I need to be a lot better.” – HowardBeck

      <3 u Jeremy

    136. tastycakes

      I, for one, like the idea of Lin backing up Nash for a couple of years before taking the reins full-time.

      As for money… Nash is already set for life, if he cares about competing for a ring, he might leave some on the table (splitting the MLE with Lin).

      Lin can be offered the MLE by other teams, but he doesn’t have to sign an offer sheet… so if he’s on board with taking less to bring Steve on, that’s a possibility too.

      It’s really tricky — given Melo’s second-tier ability and Amar’e’s rapid decline, I can see the argument for going for it by signing Nash to the MLE, and if Lin bails as a result, so be it.

      I love Lin and hope he stays a Knick for a long time. He and Shumpert are going to be something special by the time we put Melo and STAT out to pasture. BUT… we’re still dealing with a small sample size and a knee injury. He may never be better than league average at the point, long term.

      Honestly, I don’t think the team with Melo and STAT have any realistic chance of winning a ring over the next 5 years — so I’d be making the long-term decisions (like trading those guys for youth and picks if available, and spending money on young guys with upside like Lin). But Melo’s not going anywhere and STAT is going to be mighty difficulty to move.

      I’m not trying to harsh on those guys too much. I’m going to remain optimistic that STAT will have a bounce back year and that Melo will finally settle in and play effectively day to day. With a totally healthy team, very good things could happen next year… just STAY OUT OF THE HEAT’S PLAYOFF BRACKET PLZ THX

    137. johnlocke

      The most intriguing thing about that article was the idea of packaging Chandler and Shumpert for Howard… while I doubt the Magic would ever do that, if something like that ever happened…Now we’re talking about a championship team.

      ephus:
      Here is Sam Amick’s preview of the Knicks’ offseason:

      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/05/10/knicks/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a0

      Amick speculates that Landry Fields could be gone if another team signs him to a major offer sheet.Hahn has tweeted that he doubts that Fields will get a major offer sheet from anyone else.If Fields is offered anything beyond the mini-MLE ($3.1 million/year), I will be shocked if the Knicks match.

      Hahn gets it wrong, however, in saying that the Knicks best case scenario for teaming Lin/Nash is to have Lin accept a QO for one year.The problem is that if Lin signs for just one year, the Knicks will not be protected by the Gilbert Arenas provision after next season, so other teams would be able to offer above the MLE for Line post-2013 and the Knicks would not be able to match.

      If the Knicks wanted to pair Lin and Nash, their best route would be to have Lin accept the Biannual and Nash take a 3 year MLE.After two years, Lin would become a UFA with the Knicks holding Full Bird Rights.If you assume that Lin will get at least a two year competing bid at the MLE, he would be giving up about $6 million over two years to play behind/with Nash.

      I question whether the Nash/Lin/Shumpert backcourt would work defensively.If you divided the minutes equally among the three, Nash/Lin would be on the court together for at least 8 minutes.I do not see Lin being able to cover the top SGs.Nash certainly could not.

    138. ephus

      TelegraphedPass:
      Um. Just noticed Melo posted a .97 PPP shooting >50% as the PnR ball handler this year. I know STAT sets really weak screens but more 3-4 PnR plz?????

      The Melo/Stat screen worked spectacularly well on a couple of occasions, but mostly as a side PnR, not at center court. Gives Stat a shorter space to finish after he catches on the dive. The problem is that it usually takes the Knicks at least 14 seconds to set up a side PnR, so if the defense sends the third man, there is not a lot of time on the shot clock for the Knicks to find the open man.

    139. Brian Cronin

      so if he’s on board with taking less to bring Steve on

      He’d be the first NBA player ever to do so (take less money before getting his first big contract), so I’m thinking the odds are not good.

    140. ruruland

      TelegraphedPass:
      Um. Just noticed Melo posted a .97 PPP shooting >50% as the PnR ball handler this year. I know STAT sets really weak screens but more 3-4 PnR plz?????

      They frequently trap it… It’s when teams don’t trap/blitz Melo pnr when he is so great with it….. He’s not quick like Paul where he can run multiple pnrs on the same play or beat the hedge enough to make them respect the spacing on it.

      Melo is a very good pnr player but there are limited passign windows when he plays it because of how teams defend it — that’s why you need guys on the weakside to make teams pay.

    141. ephus

      tastycakes: As for money… Nash is already set for life, if he cares about competing for a ring, he might leave some on the table (splitting the MLE with Lin).

      The difference between splitting the MLE ($2.5 MM per player) and the Bi-annual ($2 MM) is not large enough to get both Lin and Nash to agree to split the MLE.

    142. ruruland

      ephus: The Melo/Stat screen worked spectacularly well on a couple of occasions, but mostly as a side PnR, not at center court.Gives Stat a shorter space to finish after he catches on the dive.The problem is that it usually takes the Knicks at least 14 seconds to set up a side PnR, so if the defense sends the third man, there is not a lot of time on the shot clock for the Knicks to find the open man.

      yep. Melo tries to find STAT in situations where he’s good. it’s just that Melo is not the kind of player that can consistently create those situations…..

      STAT slipping picks makes the passing windows smaller — so you need a lower-center-of-gravity passer ot take advantage of it.

    143. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      The most intriguing thing about that article was the idea of packaging Chandler and Shumpert for Howard… while I doubt the Magic would ever do that,if something like that ever happened…Now we’re talking about a championship team.

      LIn is a big/ strong pg that can do an ok job on some twos — the offensive benefits far outweigh the defensive liabilities.

      Denver is best with Miller and Laswon on the floor at the same time, and neither are good defenders overall.

    144. Frank

      Thanks for clearing that up Brian — sort of sucks. You can imagine being a team that has planned your cap very carefully and then hitting gold on a Lin-type player, and then you get punished for that same thing rather than rewarded.

      Re: Lin – the only financial reason I can think he would take less than the full MLE to stay with the Knicks is to be 1 year closer to full Bird rights. If he signs with another team he will need another 3 years there before he can hit the big jackpot (as opposed to 1 more year here for Early Bird and another year after that for full Bird).

      From a BRAND perspective I think it’s a tough call. Playing with/behind Nash can’t be good for him because he won’t play as much. Taking less money so you can resign Novak and JR (while being the guy who gets them the ball) would be great for his brand, especially if the team is really good (which I think it will be). As I’ve written multiple times before – if Jeremy plays anywhere near the level he did this year, his NBA salary will only be a small minority of his total income.

      I’m not sure what his family’s financial situation is – but if I remember correctly both his parents are professionals of some sort (his dad’s an engineer?), so it’s not like he has to make piles of money to rescue his family from the depths of poverty. Easy for me to say though, I guess.

    145. JC Knickfan

      Dolan not going give up on Lin, but it’s blogs we could talk about merit signing Nash.

      My issue getting Nash in 3 year deal is he would be 39, 40, 41 year old. First given his age it’s fallacy that you can take this years result apply to next 3 year. It happen all the time, athletes hit the old age wall. 2nd I’ve not found any evidence that we are top notch injury prevention training staff compare to Suns. Any injury to Nash at this age could significantly deteriorate his abilities.

      If Nash can’t maintain his standard excellent body care, you know with Knicks luck he will get injury we’ll have lame-duck PG.

      http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/secret-behind-phoenix-suns-elite-training-staff/

    146. Frank

      ephus: The difference between splitting the MLE ($2.5 MM per player) and the Bi-annual ($2 MM) is not large enough to get both Lin and Nash to agree to split the MLE.

      I think the point would be that they could get 3 players with 2 exceptions, no? The other advantage of splitting the MLE (for the player) is that your max contract duration is longer (4 years for MLE and 2 years for BAE) and thus provides more security. So one might consider asking Jeremy to take $3M x 2 years with a 3rd and 4th year player options, Novak to take $2M x 2 years with similar options. That way J-Lin is guaranteed $12M and Novak is guaranteed $8M but they can both opt out of the later years to take advantage of Bird rights.

      Ideally you would sign Lin to a 4 year deal with a 3rd year player option and a 4th year team option. That way if he’s good he can get his big payday using full Bird rights after 2 years (right on schedule) and if he sucks, we can drop him after the 3rd year (which happens to be when Amare/Melo/TC come off the cap also). Both sides would be protected in that case. So in essence it would be a 4 year deal for ~$13M (considering raises) with about $9.5M guaranteed.

      Man, there is so much armchair GM time now. Sad.

    147. Brian Cronin

      Thanks for clearing that up Brian — sort of sucks. You can imagine being a team that has planned your cap very carefully and then hitting gold on a Lin-type player, and then you get punished for that same thing rather than rewarded.

      Yeah, it really is funny that the provision designed to keep teams from losing their hidden gems has a whole bunch of loopholes in it.

    148. ruruland

      Frank: I think the point would be that they could get 3 players with 2 exceptions, no?The other advantage of splitting the MLE (for the player) is that your max contract duration is longer (4 years for MLE and 2 years for BAE) and thus provides more security. So one might consider asking Jeremy to take $3M x 2 years with a 3rd and 4th year player options, Novak to take $2M x 2 years with similar options.That way J-Lin is guaranteed $12M and Novak is guaranteed $8M but they can both opt out of the later years to take advantage of Bird rights.

      Ideally you would sign Lin to a 4 year deal with a 3rd year player option and a 4th year team option.That way if he’s good he can get his big payday using full Bird rights after 2 years (right on schedule) and if he sucks, we can drop him after the 3rd year (which happens to be when Amare/Melo/TC come off the cap also).Both sides would be protected in that case.So in essence it would be a 4 year deal for ~$13M (considering raises) with about $9.5M guaranteed.

      Man, there is so much armchair GM time now. Sad.

      NBA off-seasons are short though. A lot happens quickly. Playoffs should be great.

    149. bobneptune

      JK47:
      Steve Nash is 37.He’s still a very fine player, but that WS/48 is starting to slip:

      Age 35: .178
      Age 36: .153
      Age 37: .144

      Jeremy Lin is 23 years old and had a .140 WS/48 in his first extended exposure in the NBA.It is entirely possible that Lin could continue to build on his game and bump that WS/48 score higher, and it’s also possible that Nash could continue to slip.

      I’d personally rather invest in the commodity that is likely to improve versus the one that is almost certain to decline.

      jk,

      nice job cherrypicking your stats to make a point. you neglected to add nash’s .140 WS/48 when he was 34 (the year previous to your abbreviated 3 yr list), so his ws/48 is stronger today than it was 4 years ago!!!

      nash is a vastly better shooter from 3, from 2, from the line, a far better passer, orchestrator, etc, generally all the point guard skills. nash was 4th in the league this year in ts%, first in assist% second in assists, shot 90% from the line and 39% behind the ar. hardly the indiator of declining skills.

      also, quick…. who is nash’s first option to score…. marcin gortat? nash has shit to pass to and still leads the league in assists.

      i like lin and would be happy with him as our pg next year if healthy. but if they have the chance to land nash and choose lin over him, that would just be moronic.

      the knicks have there money rapped up long term in the 29 yr old chandler with an extensive injury history, amar’e with a bad disc and 2 microfractures and a detached retina and melo with 9 seasons and >25,400 minutes logged on his body already. the better do their best work over the next 2-3 seasons and not worry so much if lin will improve 5 years from now.

      nash is extremely durable having missed only 4 games this past season and never played less than 75 in the past 9 previous seasons. lin, on the…

    150. ephus

      Frank: . So one might consider asking Jeremy to take $3M x 2 years with a 3rd and 4th year player options, Novak to take $2M x 2 years with similar options. That way J-Lin is guaranteed $12M and Novak is guaranteed $8M but they can both opt out of the later years to take advantage of Bird rights.

      Unfortunately, according to Larry Coon (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q57) that does not work. There can be only one option year in a contract, and it can only extend the contract for one additional season. So if Lin took 50% of the MLE ($2.5 MM/yr), you could give him a player option for year 3, when he would have Full Bird rights. And if Novak took the Biannual Exception, he could opt-out after next season when he would have Early Bird rights.

      Looking at these numbers, I could see Novak agreeing to a two year Biannual Exception with a player option for the second season. The Knicks would then have Early Bird rights, and could sign him for $5 MM/year. Under that scenario, Novak would make more in his first two years as a Knick ($7 MM ($2 MM + $5 MM)) then if he took the mini-MLE from the Lakers ($6 MM over two years). Of course, that would require Novak to trust that he would get the MLE from the Knicks after next season. And, after the Joe Smith fiasco, you cannot have a tacit agreement anymore.

    151. TelegraphedPass

      @155,

      Again, nobody is debating that Steve Nash today is better than Lin. How long do you expect Nash to keep up this stellar play?

      I’m all for signing Steve Nash. Even at the expense of Lin, I think. That doesn’t mean there isn’t risk in signing the old vet. He has to decline eventually, and eventually usually happens rather quickly.

      More importantly, does an all-around PG like Lin who scores at a phenomenal rate in isolation and draws tons of fouls fit the team better than a legendary shooter/distributor like Nash who shoots better in almost every situation than Lin?

    152. Brian Cronin

      What Amick does bring up that is an important point is that you can’t sign a player to the MLE if that MLE will take your total cap figure to over $74 million.

      So if the Knicks give Lin the MLE this year and sign Fields to, I dunno, $3 million, then I don’t know if they’d even be able to give Novak (or anyone else) the full MLE in 2013.

    153. bobneptune

      JC Knickfan:
      Dolan not going give up on Lin, but it’s blogs we could talk about merit signing Nash.

      My issue getting Nash in 3 year deal is he would be 39, 40, 41 year old. First given his age it’s fallacy that you can take this years result apply to next 3 year.It happen all the time, athletes hit the old age wall. 2nd I’ve not found any evidence that we are top notch injury prevention training staff compare to Suns. Any injury to Nash at this age could significantly deteriorate his abilities.

      If Nash can’t maintain his standard excellent body care, you know with Knicks luck he will get injury we’ll have lame-duck PG.

      http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/secret-behind-phoenix-suns-elite-training-staff/

      so, you are assuming a guy who is slender, always in great shape, has played 74+ games a season since 2001 and is still playing great will all of a sudden fall of the face of the earth a week from next coming tuesday.

      however, a guy who broke down with an old lesion on his articular cartilage after 25 starts and couldn’t make a quick recovery at 23 isn’t a health risk at all. interesting.

      plus, lin has a miniscule body of work, but no risk here.

    154. Brian Cronin

      All of this, by the way, is based on a $70 million luxury cap. I believe 2013 is the first year that the luxury cap (and the salary cap as a whole) is allowed to drop (to bring it in line with the drop from players getting 58% of league revenue to 50/51%). So who knows what that will look like.

    155. TelegraphedPass

      Brian Cronin: What Amick does bring up that is an important point is that you can’t sign a player to the MLE if that MLE will take your total cap figure to over $74 million.So if the Knicks give Lin the MLE this year and sign Fields to, I dunno, $3 million, then I don’t know if they’d even be able to give Novak (or anyone else) the full MLE in 2013.

      :((((((( Fields for $3m would be so awful anyways.

    156. JC Knickfan

      tastycakes:
      I, for one, like the idea of Lin backing up Nash for a couple of years before taking the reins full-time.

      As for money…Nash is already set for life, if he cares about competing for a ring, he might leave some on the table (splitting the MLE with Lin).

      Lin can be offered the MLE by other teams, but he doesn’t have to sign an offer sheet… so if he’s on board with taking less to bring Steve on, that’s a possibility too.

      Honestly, I don’t think the team with Melo and STAT have any realistic chance of winning a ring over the next 5 years — so I’d be making the long-term decisions (like trading those guys for youth and picks if available, and spending money on young guys with upside like Lin).But Melo’s not going anywhere and STAT is going to be mighty difficulty to move.

      If Lin continue improve, Dolan has his ideal face of the franchise. Are you going to get a more wholesome image.
      As long Dolan has healthy marketable Lin, I can see Melo being traded. I doubt it happen next year though.

      So Knicks say resign Woodson we have another year Melo ball. Honestly, if we another 1 rd or even 2nd rd lost in 5 games, I hope our GM has green light to blow this team up. Amare enough said is not Max player. Samething with Melo, but he still very tradable. Offseason 2014 we trade Melo and 2015 last of Amare contract we trade him. So my take is another year for Melo, Amare ball w/ min of:
      1) Win Atlantic
      2) Win round 1
      3) Win at least 3 games round 2.
      Otherwise reboot this team.

    157. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: so, you are assuming a guy who is slender, always in great shape, has played 74+ games a season since 2001 and is still playing great will all of a sudden fall of the face of the earth a week from next coming tuesday.however, a guy who broke down with an old lesion on his articular cartilage after 25 starts and couldn’t make a quick recovery at 23 isn’t a health risk at all. interesting.plus, lin has a miniscule body of work, but no risk here.

      How many years do you think Steve has left in him? Just curious.

    158. ephus

      Brian Cronin:
      All of this, by the way, is based on a $70 million luxury cap. I believe 2013 is the first year that the luxury cap (and the salary cap as a whole) is allowed to drop (to bring it in line with the drop from players getting 58% of league revenue to 50/51%). So who knows what that will look like.

      Yup, but given that the NBA is already saying that it expects to be profitable next year, the odds are pretty good that the 2013-14 salary cap will go up, not down.

    159. er

      Everyone piling on melo did you notice that he was being guarded by lbj wade and battier, this is why the Knicks lost. Any other team would have had to double team creating easy looks for someone. Without a point guard we were never able tO get easy shots

      As far as the Lebron comparison, I think they avg the same number of points in the series so in effect they canceled each other out, and the differential, was with the other players Ie bosh and wade vs amare and tyson

    160. TelegraphedPass

      er: Everyone piling on melo did you notice that he was being guarded by lbj wade and battier, this is why the Knicks lost. Any other team would have had to double team creating easy looks for someone. Without a point guard we were never able tO get easy shotsAs far as the Lebron comparison, I think they avg the same number of points in the series so in effect they canceled each other out, and the differential, was with the other players Ie bosh and wade vs amare and tyson

      Regardless of the reasons, important as they may be, Melo didn’t shoot well this series. STAT spent most of it on the bench, either because he punched a fire extinguisher or because of foul trouble. Tyson was abnormally passive. Shump broke hisself. Baron broke hisself. Lin was out.

      This team simply wasn’t equipped to face Miami. It wasn’t a Melo vs. LeBron thing.

    161. bobneptune

      TelegraphedPass:

      More importantly, does an all-around PG like Lin who scores at a phenomenal rate in isolation and draws tons of fouls fit the team better than a legendary shooter/distributor like Nash who shoots better in almost every situation than Lin?

      a very good point which i really think argues eloquently for nash.

      the current and future knicks, biggest structural problem is the incompatibility of amar’e and melo. melo made it clear with lin running the show, he was going to cheat in from his assigned wing position and sabotage the spacing on the pnr to make it fail to get himself more iso’s.

      he’s a lot more likely to stay in line with nash running the show. nash has the chops to confront melo if this nonsense starts again as clearly the coaching staff doesn’t and lin doesn’t have the chops.

      and i’m curious, how is again that lin is a more “all around” point guard than nash? i was always under the impression nash was the best pnr runner in the universe and a far better ball handler than the turnover machine that is lin, beyond nash being a far better shooter.

    162. Will the Thrill

      That’s hilarious

      er: I think they avg the same number of points in the series so in effect they canceled each other out

    163. er

      I agree but the notion the lebron killed melo is not true, they avg the same Amt of points granted lbj was more efficient, but he was not carrying the same load. The droP off with other players is much much greater than the dropoff in this matchuP

      TelegraphedPass: Regardless of the reasons, important as they may be, Melo didn’t shoot well this series. STAT spent most of it on the bench, either because he punched a fire extinguisher or because of foul trouble. Tyson was abnormally passive. Shump broke hisself. Baron broke hisself. Lin was out.

      This team simply wasn’t equipped to face Miami. It wasn’t a Melo vs. LeBron thing.

    164. Will the Thrill

      Nash is way better right now. Nash is also way older right now. Nash also might not be better in 2 or even 1 year

      bobneptune: i was always under the impression nash was the best pnr runner in the universe and a far better ball handler than the turnover machine that is lin, beyond nash being a far better shooter.

    165. bobneptune

      TelegraphedPass: How many years do you think Steve has left in him? Just curious.

      more than amar’e :-)

      but 2-3 at a high level. again, his performance isn’t predicated on jumping out of the gym, a skill that can go quickly. his game is all angles and savvy mixed with phenomenal court vision and one of the best pure shooting touches of all time. those skills aren’t going to fall off a cliff any time soon. and his durability is legendary.

      you think he might get better looks for himself with melo and amar’e being the primary options rather than marcin gortat and channing frey like the past 2 years of his so called decline?

    166. JC Knickfan

      bobneptune: so, you are assuming a guy who is slender, always in great shape, has played 74+ games a season since 2001 and is still playing great will all of a sudden fall of the face of the earth a week from next coming tuesday.

      however, a guy who broke down with an old lesion on his articular cartilage after 25 starts and couldn’t make a quick recovery at 23 isn’t a health risk at all.interesting.

      plus, lin has a miniscule body of work, but no risk here.

      Don’t make assumption. Lin is risk. Ideal we sign 2 year deal not 3. At 23 he alot more upside then Nash so yes rather take that risk. This is NBA and it’s not 40yr’s game. You actually don’t think Nash will deteriorate. You have crystal ball or something. History on my side – you see it time and time again players in last year playing day are shells of his former self. With Knicks luck we get one good year out of Nash at his current level and it’s not going to be good enough get us over the hump.

    167. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: a very good point which i really think argues eloquently for nash.the current and future knicks, biggest structural problem is the incompatibility of amar’e and melo. melo made it clear with lin running the show, he was going to cheat in from his assigned wing position and sabotage the spacing on the pnr to make it fail to get himself more iso’s.he’s a lot more likely to stay in line with nash running the show. nash has the chops to confront melo if this nonsense starts again as clearly the coaching staff doesn’t and lin doesn’t have the chops.and i’m curious, how is again that lin is a more “all around” point guard than nash? i was always under the impression nash was the best pnr runner in the universe and a far better ball handler than the turnover machine that is lin, beyond nash being a far better shooter.

      Because at this point in his career Nash doesn’t look to score nearly as much. Teams know that, and it will only get worse as he ages. Doesn’t mean he can’t put up great percentages and be effective, but he’s not pressuring the interior the way Lin will.

      Lin is also a better rebounder and generates more steals.

      When I say all-around, I mean Lin right now does everything fairly well. He can run an offense, he’s a surprisingly good midrange shooter, he’s a threat from deep, he’s great at drawing fouls and does so often, he rebounds well, he distributes well, he forces turnovers, and he’s a solid free throw shooter.

      I don’t need to tell you all the things Nash does excellently, but he no longer rebounds, forces turnovers, or drives as effectively as Lin.

      That’s all I mean by all-around in this case.

      And ummm. Maybe Nash isn’t the best example of a player to contrast to the “turnover machine” that is Jeremy Lin. (As Nash’s 27.1% TOV% would attest)

    168. Will the Thrill

      Lebron scored more efficiently, and scored the same amount of points WHILE initiating the offense and averaging almost 6 assists per game. Even thought I know some people think Melo does a real good job of initiating the offense and getting other people shots (by standing and drawing a double), it simply didn’t happen this series and he was basically a strictly iso (shooting) player all series. I don’t see how they cancel each other out.

      er:
      Please explain

    169. bobneptune

      Will the Thrill:
      Nash is way better right now.Nash is also way older right now. Nash also might not be better in 2 or even 1 year

      nobody has a crystal ball that gives answers with metaphysical certitude. we can only use logic. but nash’s track record is pretty good and as of 2 weeks ago he was still playing at a level lin has never dreamed of. oh… wait a minute, lin wasn’t playing 2 weeks ago because he broke down after starting 25 games.

      but there is no risk with lin. he’s got a cv of 25 games and couldn’t start a 26th.

    170. johnlocke

      Actually posted before reading it. It’s an AWFUL article. Almost as bad as the one when he argued that Carmelo will never win a championship b/c he’s not as good as Lebron (a player who has never won a championship).

      His points are 1) looking at advanced stats (TS%, USG %, AST % and PER) over the course of his career, there are no players who have posted similar stats who have won championships — (31% USG, 16% AST%, .544%, 20.4 PER). He found 16 instances in which someone had a Carmelo Anthony season. Blah, blah…won’t bore you with this third grade analysis.

      What is really annoying is that you get through the article and it doesn’t propose a single trade that would make the Knicks better. His article boils down to “you should trade Carmelo — you figure it out” … who pays these guys??

      er:
      This doolitle guy is clearly Owen :)

    171. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: you think he might get better looks for himself with melo and amar’e being the primary options rather than marcin gortat and channing frey like the past 2 years of his so called decline?

      Hey, I never said he was in decline. But yeah I could see that. I don’t like your slander of the Polish Hammer though!

      I do wonder how his game would fit with Melo, though. Obvi Nash can make it work, but I’m curious how much of his game would synergize with Melo’s talents.

    172. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Knicks must trade Carmelo Anthony:
      http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7915596/2012-nba-playoffs-new-york-knicks-win-title-their-present-team

      Wow – that was fast

      Having read the article the title is a lot more inflammatory than the actual piece. Doolittle reiterates things that have been said many times by many people on this board, but his main conclusion isn’t that they have to trade Carmelo, because he rightfully realizes it will never happen with Dolan piloting the ship. His real conclusion is that they need to get a very smart coach to make the pieces fit:

      “The best thing the Knicks could do would be to drive a Brinks truck into Phil Jackson’s driveway and tell him to take what he wants. It’s not just the 11 championship rings — Jackson’s ego and ability to manipulate star-level players might be the best hope to get Anthony to truly buy into a team concept. His Triangle Offense might be just the structure the Knicks need to get their combination of top talent to work efficiently on the floor. Then there is the fact that Jackson played on the Knicks’ only title teams, which provides a nice bit of symmetry for those of us with a taste for history.”

      I’m pretty sure all of that has been said on here hundreds of times, and I for one definitely agree with him. The pieces can fit, but it’s not a simple fit, and Woodson just doesn’t strike me as the man to do it for a couple reasons. For one, he’s not a big Xs and Os guy and secondly, he’s too dependent on the support of the players for his job security. If Melo decides he doesn’t like Woodson any more he can make him go away, and Woodson knows it. PJax would have some control.

    173. BigBlueAL

      Isnt signing Nash at the expense of Lin a typical short-sighted type of move that has doomed this franchise for the past decade?? No way should they sign Nash at Lin’s expense, sorry.

    174. TelegraphedPass

      bobneptune: but there is no risk with lin..

      Are you quite finished with the sarcasm? Because nobody is saying there isn’t risk with Lin, and it’s kinda embarrassing to read.

    175. KnickfaninNJ

      Good team defense always makes players look they are performing badly. So I am not sure it’s a fair question unless you ask who played well relative to other Knicks. Using that criterion, I would say Jeffries most of the time and Chandler some of the time. Baron Davis also, until he was injured, played well. Looking at his status as a rookie reserve, Jorts had some moments too.

    176. Brian Cronin

      Isnt signing Nash at the expense of Lin a typical short-sighted type of move that has doomed this franchise for the past decade?? No way should they sign Nash at Lin’s expense, sorry.

      Short-sighted only if you think Lin will be relatively as good as Nash for the next few years. Nash this past year was one of the five best point guards in the NBA. If he can give you production like that for two years, when your core of players will still be in their primes, is that really short-sighted?

      If you think Lin is ready to make the leap to be even a top 12 point guard, though, then yeah, better to have Lin.

    177. er

      Lebron had one game over 50% which is the same as melo the difference is that melo shot like 20% in game one which horribly scews his numbers.

      Lebron is a defacto point guard his whole career, and it’s a little easier to run the O when you have wade and bosh, not to mention miller and chalmers who were making 3s all series, also Joel Anthony killed Chandler and amare on the offensive boards which I’m sure helped

      And as I said before Melo was defended by 3 of the best wing defenders in the league with no pg to pen and kick so the Knicks were not really able to get easy shots. Notice when our best point guard in the series (bibby) got a little penatration he was able to find many open shots

      Will the Thrill:
      Lebron scored more efficiently, and scored the same amount of points WHILE initiating the offense and averaging almost 6 assists per game.Even thought I know some people think Melo does a real good job of initiating the offense and getting other people shots (by standing and drawing a double), it simply didn’t happen this series and he was basically a strictly iso (shooting) player all series.I don’t see how they cancel each other out.

    178. TelegraphedPass

      BigBlueAL: Isnt signing Nash at the expense of Lin a typical short-sighted type of move that has doomed this franchise for the past decade?? No way should they sign Nash at Lin’s expense, sorry.

      Nash is really. Really. Really good though. I wouldn’t say it’s shortsighted, unless we were passing on a can’t-miss talent. I love Lin as much as anyone here, but he isn’t that.

    179. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Actually posted before reading it. It’s an AWFUL article. Almost as bad as the one when he argued that Carmelo will never win a championship b/c he’s not as good as Lebron (a player who has never won a championship).

      His points are 1) looking at advanced stats (TS%, USG %, AST % and PER) over the course of his career, there are no players who have posted similar stats who have won championships — (31% USG, 16% AST%, .544%, 20.4 PER). He found 16 instances in which someone had a Carmelo Anthony season. Blah, blah…won’t bore you with this third grade analysis.

      What is really annoying is that you get through the article and it doesn’t propose a single trade that would make the Knicks better.His article boils down to “you should trade Carmelo — you figure it out” … who pays these guys??

      Did you get all the way to the bottom? Because that’s not what it boiled down to at all. That’s about the half way point of the article.

    180. er

      Yea I’ve only seen him on these melo articles, idk

      I like hollinger and his crew though

      johnlocke:
      Actually posted before reading it. It’s an AWFUL article. Almost as bad as the one when he argued that Carmelo will never win a championship b/c he’s not as good as Lebron (a player who has never won a championship).

      His points are 1) looking at advanced stats (TS%, USG %, AST % and PER) over the course of his career, there are no players who have posted similar stats who have won championships — (31% USG, 16% AST%, .544%, 20.4 PER). He found 16 instances in which someone had a Carmelo Anthony season. Blah, blah…won’t bore you with this third grade analysis.

      What is really annoying is that you get through the article and it doesn’t propose a single trade that would make the Knicks better.His article boils down to “you should trade Carmelo — you figure it out” … who pays these guys??

    181. BigBlueAL

      Trust me I love Nash too, hell he was on my fantasy championship winning team this season lol

    182. er

      I wasn’t arguing that, I was simply saying he didn’t get destroyed as bad as some are saying…..lbj had a better series by a good margin I’m not arguing that at all

      johnlocke:
      agree – PPG is not the end all be all..ay-ya-yi

    183. BigBlueAL

      My point about the shortsightedness is that in 3 years Nash will certainly be done, Lin will be turning 27 yo. Is Nash instead of Lin over the next 3 years really a big enough upgrade to justify letting Lin leave??

    184. thenamestsam

      Brian Cronin: Short-sighted only if you think Lin will be relatively as good as Nash for the next few years. Nash this past year was one of the five best point guards in the NBA. If he can give you production like that for two years, when your core of players will still be in their primes, is that really short-sighted?

      If you think Lin is ready to make the leap to be even a top 12 point guard, though, then yeah, better to have Lin.

      Does Lin even have to make a leap to be a top-12 pg? If he plays the way he played when he was healthy for a full season, he’s there isn’t he? What Lin has done is a ridiculously small sample and you should expect some regression to the mean, but it’s not like the guy has to get way better to put himself in that top-12 type conversation.

      I’m actually very down on Lin relative to a lot of people on this board and I don’t think he has a lot of room for improvement in his game, but I’d still take him over Nash. I think he’s going to be a top 15 – top 12 PG for a number of years with great marketing value. Nash is defying age each time he steps on the court. I don’t want to be the guy betting on that continuing.

    185. er

      I don’t have insider so I don’t know what he said

      thenamestsam: Did you get all the way to the bottom? Because that’s not what it boiled down to at all. That’s about the half way point of the article.

    186. johnlocke

      The article had 4 different points w/ crappy logic. Did I miss where he proposed a trade that would make NY better? Or is his trade to give a Brinks trunk to Phil Jackson which was his conclusion?
      Please enlighten me

      thenamestsam: Did you get all the way to the bottom? Because that’s not what it boiled down to at all. That’s about the half way point of the article.

    187. ruruland

      bobneptune: a very good point which i really think argues eloquently for nash.

      the current and future knicks, biggest structural problem is the incompatibility of amar’e and melo. melo made it clear with lin running the show, he was going to cheat in from his assigned wing position and sabotage the spacing on the pnr to make it fail to get himself more iso’s.

      he’s a lot more likely to stay in line with nash running the show. nash has the chops to confront melo if this nonsense starts again as clearly the coaching staff doesn’t and lin doesn’t have the chops.

      Amar’e has a + 600 TS since the weight loss — he’s most incompatible with a paint-clogging center and no NBA point guard, but he still managed to be efficient.

      Again, the Knicks were in a losing streak and asking Melo to stand in the corner or slot in MDA’s offense while the point guard he asked his coach to play— a guy as you mentioned with almost no chops who was almost out of league — was given 100 percent control of the offense — which did not feature Melo post-up opportunities or Melo pick and roll.

      You were asking your $100 million guy to stand in the corner and be an occasional spot-up shooter AS THE TEAM LOST GAME AFTER GAME…….many because the offense struggled

      I don’t know a star player in this league with a pair who doesn’t ask for the ball more in that situation — even if it was just as the pick and roll ballhandler as he was previously in the year (successfully I might say)…….

      Again, a good point guard and a good offensive system balances everything — including Melo post-ups.

    188. johnlocke

      Once again … if you’re going to write an article with the title ‘Knicks should trade Carmelo Anthony’ and your story ends with we should hire Phil Jackson there is a huge logical hole missing. Maybe editors changed the title…who the hell knows, but this was a poorly written article. He just explains away the fact that 3 players actually one championships with similar seasons. He doesn’t mention the players in the league today, who match up well with the ‘championship caliber’ players of the past…that would have been much more interesting and helped to inform who we should be trading melo for. Pointing out we need to trade Melo (his 2nd article on the topic) and then concluding that we should hire Phil Jackson is just STUPID.

      thenamestsam: Having read the article the title is a lot more inflammatory than the actual piece. Doolittle reiterates things that have been said many times by many people on this board, but his main conclusion isn’t that they have to trade Carmelo, because he rightfully realizes it will never happen with Dolan piloting the ship. His real conclusion is that they need to get a very smart coach to make the pieces fit:

    189. ruruland

      johnlocke:
      The article had 4 different points w/ crappy logic. Did I miss where he proposed a trade that would make NY better? Or is his trade to give a Brinks trunk to Phil Jackson which was his conclusion?
      Please enlighten me

      I’m writing a piece for Tommy that is essentially a retort to all the media Melo hate this year. Look for it in the next few days. I’m also going to challenge any media member to have a conversation/debate about the issue on his blog.

      I’ve had Twitter conversations with guys like Harvey Araton and Matt Moore and their biases are quite clear.

    190. KnickfaninNJ

      Nash versus Lin,

      The risks are there with both players. Lin to injury or not improving and Nash to declining and or getting injured. But the age difference won’t change and isn’t a risk. At a certain point Lin will be more valuable than Nash. I am so tired of having a Knick team of the week, it would be nice to have some stability and some youth. So I say Lin if we have to make a choice. Remember when we got Billups, he was an older point guard who was supposed to be great and definitely had done a lot of good things in the past, just like Nash. But I think everyone would take Lin over Billups.

    191. Brian Cronin

      My point about the shortsightedness is that in 3 years Nash will certainly be done, Lin will be turning 27 yo. Is Nash instead of Lin over the next 3 years really a big enough upgrade to justify letting Lin leave??

      Right, but if you’re talking about three years, is three years really thinking short sightedly? If it was just one year, then yeah, but three years is a long time. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I certainly don’t think it is a no-brainer to pick Nash over Lin, but I think it is reasonable enough that if they did do it, it wouldn’t be short-sighted.

    192. d-mar

      All I can think about with Lin is the Miami game, where they harassed him unmercifully and made him look like he didn’t belong on the same court. Granted, that was one game, but I can’t imagine Nash ever getting that rattled. In fact, if the Heat tried that crap on him, he would figure out a way to make them pay.

      I’m not saying this is a complete no brainer given their ages, but we really are in “win now” mode, and the right move is to grab Nash for a run at a championship.

    193. thenamestsam

      BigBlueAL:
      My point about the shortsightedness is that in 3 years Nash will certainly be done, Lin will be turning 27 yo.Is Nash instead of Lin over the next 3 years really a big enough upgrade to justify letting Lin leave??

      This is my thinking exactly. Unless you win a chip in the next two years or come damn close with Nash I think there’s going to be a lot of regret about letting Lin go. Next year even with Nash I wouldn’t love our chances just because it’s incredibly hard to win a chip on your first run through the playoffs as a team. Miami has insane talent and things really opened up for them, but even they failed on their first chase. It’s just a hard thing to do and it usually takes teams at least a year to find their playoff sea legs as a group. It’s not impossible (Boston Big 3 were able to do it), but it’s very difficult, and with other well established, well integrated powerhouse teams it would be tough.

      So then you’re trading all of Lin’s future for a potentially one year window with a 39 year old PG. Is it worth it? It is if you hit the jackpot, because flags fly forever. But it’s a huge risk.

    194. thenamestsam

      johnlocke:
      Once again … if you’re going to write an article with the title ‘Knicks should trade Carmelo Anthony’ and your story ends with we should hire Phil Jackson there is a huge logical hole missing. Maybe editors changed the title…who the hell knows, but this was a poorly written article. He just explains away the fact that 3 players actually one championships with similar seasons.He doesn’t mention the players in the league today, who match up well with the ‘championship caliber’ players of the past…that would have been much more interesting and helped to inform who we should be trading melo for. Pointing out we need to trade Melo (his 2nd article on the topic) and then concluding that we should hire Phil Jackson is just STUPID.

      You can’t blame writers for their headlines. It’s not even a matter of whether the editors change them. The editors WRITE them.

    195. thenamestsam

      ruruland: I’m writing a piece for Tommy that is essentially a retort to all the media Melo hate this year. Look for it in the next few days. I’m also going to challenge any media member to have a conversation/debate about the issue on his blog.

      I’ve had Twitter conversations with guys like Harvey Araton and Matt Moore and their biases are quite clear.

      I like your posts a lot, so I hope you’ll take this comment in the joking spirit I’m making it in, but for you to be criticizing someone else for having clear biases just made me guffaw.

    196. ephus

      I clearly remember the plays before MDA resigned where Melo established deep post position and was really upset when Lin waived him out. At the time, I wrote that you have to give a big man the ball when he does the hard work to establish deep post position. What I was missing — of course — was that MDA had ordered Lin not to break the offense and refuse to pass into ‘Melo even if he established a deep post with an inferior defender on his back.

      That was a no-win situation for Lin. He had to follow MDA’s directions, but with ‘Melo breaking the offense, there was no hope that the possession would be productive. To his discredit, ‘Melo refused to run hard or play tight defense once it was clear that he was being relegated to the corner.

      In 2010, before Denver traded ‘Melo, the Nuggets also ran a lot of sets where ‘Melo was relegated to the corner 3. As much as he does not like it, it seems that at least two coaches (Karl and MDA) think Melo can make a strong contribution in that role.

    197. johnlocke

      Here is the first sentence of his article: It wasn’t just in his headline

      “The easy answer is to trade Carmelo Anthony. Let’s just put that out there, right off the bat. The question: How do the Knicks get from here to a championship?”

      If you’re getting paid to write an article using advanced stats, I expect a much more well-reasoned and logical piece and you better have at least one trade proposal! And I haven’t even addressed his highly flawed methodology of looking at one player’s stats to determine the potential outcome of a team. It also misses the point that if we trade Melo, we’re not getting back a better player, so his whole logic falls on itself.

      That’s my perspective, you’re entitled to yours though

      thenamestsam: You can’t blame writers for their headlines. It’s not even a matter of whether the editors change them. The editors WRITE them.

    198. ruruland

      ephus:
      I clearly remember the plays before MDA resigned where Melo established deep post position and was really upset when Lin waived him out.At the time, I wrote that you have to give a big man the ball when he does the hard work to establish deep post position.What I was missing — of course — was that MDA had ordered Lin not to break the offense and refuse to pass into ‘Melo even if he established a deep post with an inferior defender on his back.

      That was a no-win situation for Lin.He had to follow MDA’s directions, but with ‘Melo breaking the offense, there was no hope that the possession would be productive.To his discredit, ‘Melo refused to run hard or play tight defense once it was clear that he was being relegated to the corner.

      In 2010, before Denver traded ‘Melo, the Nuggets also ran a lot of sets where ‘Melo was relegated to the corner 3.As much as he does not like it, it seems that at least two coaches (Karl and MDA) think Melo can make a strong contribution in that role.

      Melo has played quite well off the ball in his career — he’s more efficient there,actually, though he doesn’t help his team as much there. It’s not either or. You mix them and you feature Melo prominently — in a situation like that faced against the Heat — you let Melo play a weakside attack role. But without Lin you can’t effectively do that (though they tried)

    199. ruruland

      thenamestsam: I like your posts a lot, so I hope you’ll take this comment in the joking spirit I’m making it in, but for you to be criticizing someone else for having clear biases just made me guffaw.

      Haha. I hear you. But if I was a reporter I certainly wouldn’t be as transparent — at least I hope.

    200. hoolahoop

      Frank: I really hate to go there but I would love to see the results of a pop synthetic HGH test around the league.These dudes are just so freaking big and fast.Feels a little “artificial” if you know what I mean.

      Shhhhhhhh!
      Couldn’t be more obvious.

    201. Robtachi

      I think instead of griping more about my disappointment, I want to give something of an incomplete shout-out to my fellow K-Bloggerites out there. I’ve been reading this blog for a while but this was the first season I actively took part in discussion.

      First of all, Rob, Jim, Tommy B., Brian, Mike, all you dudes who make K-Blogger go, thanks for all you do and the constant entertainment and debate.

      jon abbey, THCJ, Owen, Frank, always good talking and debating with the regulars, the old school fans, from all perspectives of Knickerbocker fandom. I know this is a terribly incomplete list but I went with fellas who seem the most visible, active and engaged, but by no means is this limited to just those I remembered. Everyone here contributes something, even when it’s laughably misguided. HAR!

      And ruruland, apropos of pretty much everything, for ill or good, you are Knickerblogger’s Carmelo Anthony of commentors. Some love you, some hate you, some are in-between and just care about the quality of product you bring us, but just keep doing what you’re doing, and to hell with caring whatever your relationship to Melo is. A quick ctrl+F of this thread alone generates 50 distinct hits on your username, so you’ve gotta be doing something right and contributing.

      I’m looking forward to ramping up the speculation this offseason. Should be a compelling one, for sure.

    202. Robtachi

      Also:

      Another example of the kind of thing that makes me hate a franchise like the Miami Heat. There is absolutely no way you are going to convince me that the Heat PR department didn’t specifically tell the PA guy to say that. PA announcers don’t just get free reign over the mic – they are direct mouthpieces for exactly what the organization wants the fans to hear during a game. I’m once again galled by this organizations outright audacity and it’s not just sour grapes. How friggin’ gullible do they think fans are?

    203. JC Knickfan

      Lin vs Nash argument probably going discuss until one them get signed. But either pg does not solve 800 lb Gorilla on our backs.
      Which is Amare who going to be 30 going into 11 season is on the decline. Historical he one worst defensive PF and not good team rebounder, but paid MAX money. This team is not built to win now.
      Only way is Amare trade for correct roles player and Nash signed to MLE. You have hope Nash continue be top 3 PG and be leader the team. Melo need kowtow to him let him run the offense. Whoever is headcoach just need teach defense and Nash is defacto offensive coordinator.

      The problem above scenario is who hell even will take Amare and give us role player back?

    204. cgreene

      Frank: I think the point would be that they could get 3 players with 2 exceptions, no?The other advantage of splitting the MLE (for the player) is that your max contract duration is longer (4 years for MLE and 2 years for BAE) and thus provides more security. So one might consider asking Jeremy to take $3M x 2 years with a 3rd and 4th year player options, Novak to take $2M x 2 years with similar options.That way J-Lin is guaranteed $12M and Novak is guaranteed $8M but they can both opt out of the later years to take advantage of Bird rights.

      Ideally you would sign Lin to a 4 year deal with a 3rd year player option and a 4th year team option.That way if he’s good he can get his big payday using full Bird rights after 2 years (right on schedule) and if he sucks, we can drop him after the 3rd year (which happens to be when Amare/Melo/TC come off the cap also).Both sides would be protected in that case.So in essence it would be a 4 year deal for ~$13M (considering raises) with about $9.5M guaranteed.

      Man, there is so much armchair GM time now. Sad.

      THIS

    205. BigBlueAL

      What bullshit, the 76ers and Pacers are in the 2nd round and a healthy Knicks team would kill both of those teams in a playoff series.

    206. d-mar

      BigBlueAL:
      What bullshit, the 76ers and Pacers are in the 2nd round and a healthy Knicks team would kill both of those teams in a playoff series.

      I was thinking the same thing, 6th seed or 8th seed and we’re in the 2nd round, and we get the damn 7th seed. And if we got the 8th, we could have had an epic 2nd round series with Boston. Fuck.

    207. ruruland

      Robtachi: ruruland

      haha. nice. It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality. Need to start making smarter posts, get my usage rate down a bit. When I isolate around here it’s only because I feel the need to compensate for lack of points made in discussion. ;)

    208. bc2k

      BigBlueAL:
      What bullshit, the 76ers and Pacers are in the 2nd round and a healthy Knicks team would kill both of those teams in a playoff series.

      Well we did lose to the F__king Bobcats!! There is no one else to blame except ourselves.

    209. johnlocke

      Atlanta still playing and have the lead in game 6. Home court for game 7.

      d-mar: I was thinking the same thing, 6th seed or 8th seed and we’re in the 2nd round, and we get the damn 7th seed. And if we got the 8th, we could have had an epic 2nd round series with Boston. Fuck.

    210. BigBlueAL

      Someone mentioned this earlier today, it would be so like the Hawks to win tonight then lose Game 7 at home.

    211. Will the Thrill

      Does anyone buy the argument that “tanking is a bad omen” and it brings on bad habits anymore? God we shoulda tanked, and we had the opportunity.

    212. nicos

      Got to feel bad for both Asik and Horford- both played really well but missed huge free throws.

    213. 2FOR18

      BigBlueAL:
      Isnt signing Nash at the expense of Lin a typical short-sighted type of move that has doomed this franchise for the past decade??No way should they sign Nash at Lin’s expense, sorry.

      The difference is that Nash would be making, at most, 5 mil for 2 or 3 years. So even in the worst case scenario, it’s not a Houston/Marbury/Ewing trade/Curry/Stat franchise killing albatross of a contract. I see it as a high reward, middle risk thing. Our big 3 are past their prime/not getting better and take up the whole cap. I think Nash is a no brainer if he’s willing to come here.

    214. Z

      ruruland: I’m writing a piece for Tommy that is essentially a retort to all the media Melo hate this year. I’m also going to challenge any media member to have a conversation/debate about the issue on his blog. I’ve had Twitter conversations with guys like Harvey Araton and Matt Moore and their biases are quite clear.

      Dude, you need a girlfriend. (who’s not 6’8″, 230 :)

    215. Z

      ruruland: It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality. Need to start making smarter posts, get my usage rate down a bit. When I isolate around here it’s only because I feel the need to compensate for lack of points made in discussion. ;)

      Haha. Funny. Good post :)

    216. Z

      BigBlueAL:
      No way should they sign Nash at Lin’s expense, sorry.

      Is a sign-and-trade out of the question? Say Nash for Fields and a resigned Novak? (wouldn’t something like that allow the Knicks to keep Lin and have Nash (without asking people to play for peanuts)?)

    217. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Will the Thrill:
      Check out these Knuggets.^_^

      If they win (and they’ve got a good shot, now) the series, how many posters will write about the ways that the win was a fluke?

      I’ll set the O/U at 8.5.

    218. max fisher-cohen

      You have to wonder if Nash would even want to come here after the way management dealt with D’Antoni.

    219. 2FOR18

      This is frustrating. It’s what the Knicks could have been in a bizarro world where the trade didn’t happen.

    220. bobneptune

      KnickfaninNJ:
      Nash versus Lin,

      The risks are there with both players.Lin to injury or not improving and Nash to declining and or getting injured.But the age difference won’t change and isn’t a risk.At a certain point Lin will be more valuable than Nash.I am so tired of having a Knick team of the week, it would be nice to have some stability and some youth.So I say Lin if we have to make a choice.Remember when we got Billups, he was an older point guard who was supposed to be great and definitely had done a lot of good things in the past, just like Nash.But I think everyone would take Lin over Billups.

      you know the difference between nash and billups during 2010-11, billups last full season?

      a mere 6 assists per game!

      if you want to compare nash to lin, it gets even sillier. to be fair to lin we have to calculate his performance per 36 minutes cuz he didn’t start all the time:

      nash gives 3.9 more assists per 36 and 0.6 less turnovers.

      nash dominates ts% .625 vs .552, 3 point% 39% vs 32%, free throws 89.4% vs 79.8%.

      i don’t know why this is even a discussion.

      for a more interesting discussion…. if you were a fan of okc and you could magically replace westbrook with nash to play along side of durant, harden , ibaka and perkins, do you think your chances of winning the title this year increase or decreases? think nash would run that offense more efficiently? less likely to blow up in a big spot?

    221. bobneptune

      BigBlueAL:
      What bullshit, the 76ers and Pacers are in the 2nd round and a healthy Knicks team would kill both of those teams in a playoff series.

      the only bullshit is laying down to cleveland with 4 games to go in the season allowing the 2 headed monster of antwan jaimason and samardo samuels to crush the dpoy who had a great ts% of .667 on his usual 3 shots.

      you reap what you sow, baby. also the bobcats sez hai!

    222. BigBlueAL

      bobneptune: the only bullshit is laying down to cleveland with 4 games to go in the season allowingthe 2 headed monster of antwan jaimason and samardo samuels to crush the dpoy who had a great ts% of .667 on his usual 3 shots.

      you reap what you sow, baby. also the bobcats sez hai!

      Seriously?? You used my comment and the Cavs game to take a shot at Chandler of all players??

    223. ruruland

      2FOR18: This is frustrating. It’s what the Knicks could have been in a bizarro world where the trade didn’t happen.

      Where Javele McGee and Andre Miller lead the team in game 5 to force game 6, where Cory Brewer is far and away the best player in the series statistically?

      tonight was an explosion from Ty and the shooters, most drawn out series have one explosion game — but it’s been McGee and Miller who’ve kept Denver alive.

      Nene never played as well as McGee has — and Andre Miller is a pretty great guy to come off the bench and control the pace.

      Lakers have been horrendous getting back defensively and patiently playing through their bigs — most of us said this could happen if they didn’t do those two things.

      Good playoff teams do those things and I thought the Lakers were a good team — turns out what they did the final few weeks was pure fools gold.

      They’ve forced a game 7. They haven’t done anything yet. let’s remember, the much better version of the Lakers allowed the Hornets to force them deep last year, allowed Houston to go to 7 games (the same kind of team Denver is).

      But they are a much worse team without Phil — they don’t play with the same focus.

    224. ruruland

      bobneptune: you know the difference between nash and billups during 2010-11, billups last full season?a mere 6 assists per game!if you want to compare nash to lin, it gets even sillier. to be fair to lin we have to calculate his performance per 36 minutes cuz he didn’t start all the time:nash gives 3.9 more assists per 36 and 0.6 less turnovers.nash dominates ts% .625 vs .552, 3 point% 39% vs 32%, free throws 89.4% vs 79.8%.i don’t know why this is even a discussion.for a more interesting discussion…. if you were a fan of okc and you could magically replace westbrook with nash to play along side of durant, harden , ibaka and perkins, do you think your chances of winning the title this year increase or decreases? think nash would run that offense more efficiently? less likely to blow up in a big spot?

      Nash is nowhere near as good defensively as Westbrook. But he’d get those shooters some looks, that’s for sure.

    225. er

      The lakers had 3 more wins than the nuggets it’s not like the lakers are some juggernaut …I know your very excited but the lakers don’t impress me @ all

    226. er

      I agree, who the he’ll from the Knicks is actually having a good series? Gallo? Mozzy? I think not thanx and goodnight

      ruruland: Where Javele McGee and Andre Miller lead the team in game 5 to force game 6, where Cory Brewer is far and away the best player in the series statistically?

      tonight was an explosion from Ty and the shooters, most drawn out series have one explosion game — but it’s been McGee and Miller who’ve kept Denver alive.

      Nene never played as well as McGee has — and Andre Miller is a pretty great guy to come off the bench and control the pace.

      Lakers have been horrendous getting back defensively and patiently playing through their bigs — most of us said this could happen if they didn’t do those two things.

      Good playoff teams do those things and I thought the Lakers were a good team — turns out what they did the final few weeks was pure fools gold.

      They’ve forced a game 7. They haven’t done anything yet. let’s remember, the much better version of the Lakers allowed the Hornets to force them deep last year, allowed Houston to go to 7 games (the same kind of team Denver is).

      But they are a much worse team without Phil — they don’t play with the same focus.

    227. bobneptune

      Z: Is a sign-and-trade out of the question? Say Nash for Fields and a resigned Novak? (wouldn’t something like that allow the Knicks to keep Lin and have Nash (without asking people to play for peanuts)?)

      you want a sign n trade that will get nash good money for 3 years and make your head asplode:

      nash (6 million for 3 years ) + marcin gortat (7.25M this coming year) for tyson chandler (13.6 million next year)

      gortat rebounds and blocks shots similarly with chandler and is a far superior offensive player as he shoots the same at the rim as chandler but can actually shoot 44.2% from 16ft to the arc.

      gortat is also 2 years younger and has 14,000 less minutes on his legs than chandler.

    228. 2FOR18

      ruruland: Where Javele McGee and Andre Miller lead the team in game 5 to force game 6, where Cory Brewer is far and away the best player in the series statistically?

      tonight was an explosion from Ty and the shooters, most drawn out series have one explosion game — but it’s been McGee and Miller who’ve kept Denver alive.

      Nene never played as well as McGee has — and Andre Miller is a pretty great guy to come off the bench and control the pace.

      Lakers have been horrendous getting back defensively and patiently playing through their bigs — most of us said this could happen if they didn’t do those two things.

      Good playoff teams do those things and I thought the Lakers were a good team — turns out what they did the final few weeks was pure fools gold.

      They’ve forced a game 7. They haven’t done anything yet. let’s remember, the much better version of the Lakers allowed the Hornets to force them deep last year, allowed Houston to go to 7 games (the same kind of team Denver is).

      But they are a much worse team without Phil — they don’t play with the same focus.

      Look, both of us said the Lakers were the team to beat in the west when they got sessions, and you said that there was no way the Nuggets could hang with the Lakers, so don’t poo poo what they’re doing.

      To this day, the Knicks not drafting Lawson bugs me to no end for various reasons, so that, plus all the ex Knicks, plus the exciting style of play, plus Faried who I love (nothing against shump who I also love and is a better fit for these Knicks), has me frustrated.

      Unless the Knicks get some genius coach or sign Nash, I don’t see all of their mismatched pieces working.

    229. bobneptune

      ruruland: Nash is nowhere near as good defensively as Westbrook. But he’d get those shooters some looks, that’s for sure.

      totally agree…. it’s a pretty neat thought experiment.

    230. 2FOR18

      er:
      The lakers had 3 more wins than the nuggets it’s not like the lakers are some juggernaut …I know your very excited but the lakers don’t impress me @ all

      er:
      I agree, who the he’ll from the Knicks is actually having a good series? Gallo? Mozzy? I think not thanx and goodnight

      What are you, ruru’s parrot?

    231. 2FOR18

      bobneptune: you want a sign n trade that will get nash good money for 3 years and make your head asplode:

      nash (6 million for 3 years ) + marcin gortat (7.25M this coming year) for tyson chandler (13.6 million next year)

      gortat rebounds and blocks shots similarly with chandler and is a far superior offensive player as he shoots the same at the rim as chandler but can actually shoot 44.2% from 16ft to the arc.

      gortat is also 2 years younger and has 14,000 less minutes on his legs than chandler.

      That just blew my mind, assuming Gortat can play good post D, which I have no idea of.

    232. bobneptune

      er:
      I agree, who the he’ll from the Knicks is actually having a good series? Gallo? Mozzy? I think not thanx and goodnight

      didn’t andre miller come to denver for the asset formerly known as ray felton?

      doesn’t mozgov get some credit for bynum and gasol shooting a combined 5 for 21? didn’t gallo lead the knuggets in assists and +/- @ +27?

    233. bobneptune

      2FOR18: That just blew my mind, assuming Gortat can play good post D, which I have no idea of.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NL1YPVnKDc

      nothing quite like the delfonics to blow your mind at 2 am :-)

      but no, gortat isn’t as good a help defender. but i’d rather go to war with nash, shumpy, melo , amar’e and gortat with lin off the bench than with lin, shumpy, melo , amar’e and chandler.

      having a center on the floor with a semblance of a mid range game will certainly open up the floor a bit and nash >>> lin.

    234. jon abbey

      Robtachi:
      I think instead of griping more about my disappointment, I want to give something of an incomplete shout-out to my fellow K-Bloggerites out there. I’ve been reading this blog for a while but this was the first season I actively took part in discussion.

      First of all, Rob, Jim, Tommy B., Brian, Mike, all you dudes who make K-Blogger go, thanks for all you do and the constant entertainment and debate.

      jon abbey, THCJ, Owen, Frank, always good talking and debating with the regulars, the old school fans, from all perspectives of Knickerbocker fandom. I know this is a terribly incomplete list but I went with fellas who seem the most visible, active and engaged, but by no means is this limited to just those I remembered. Everyone here contributes something, even when it’s laughably misguided. HAR!

      And ruruland, apropos of pretty much everything, for ill or good, you are Knickerblogger’s Carmelo Anthony of commentors. Some love you, some hate you, some are in-between and just care about the quality of product you bring us, but just keep doing what you’re doing, and to hell with caring whatever your relationship to Melo is. A quick ctrl+F of this thread alone generates 50 distinct hits on your username, so you’ve gotta be doing something right and contributing.

      I’m looking forward to ramping up the speculation this offseason. Should be a compelling one, for sure.

      thanks, man, nice post.

      I’d like to give yet another huge fuck you to Donnie Walsh for taking Jordan Hill over Ty Lawson.

    235. er

      Ok bob, ray Felton was swapped for billups who was swapped for chandler. And yes Mozgov is a great player and yes gallo was shooting over 7% from three before tonight yes you are so right

      bobneptune: didn’t andre miller come to denver for the asset formerly known as ray felton?

      doesn’t mozgov get some credit for bynum and gasol shooting a combined 5 for 21? didn’t gallo lead the knuggets in assists and +/- @ +27?

    236. er

      Also Denver fans hate miller, he will be gone next year…he’s eating up the mediocre lakers though

      er:
      Ok bob, ray Felton was swapped for billups who was swapped for chandler. And yes Mozgov is a great player and yes gallo was shooting over 7% from three before tonight yes you are so right

    237. er

      I hope they win I hate the Lakers but don’t try to link everything back to the Knicks they are a deep and talented team and alotta their good players were there already or a revelation( McGee )

      bobneptune: didn’t andre miller come to denver for the asset formerly known as ray felton?

      doesn’t mozgov get some credit for bynum and gasol shooting a combined 5 for 21? didn’t gallo lead the knuggets in assists and +/- @ +27?

    238. iserp

      Lin will take the MLE or higher, and in case we want both Nash and Lin, Nash should be the one giving up money. I’d rather have Nash and Lin here, but we also should look for another PG, becasue Nash ain’t playing 40 mpg during the regular season. However, he would make our offense beautiful.

      Another possibility nobody has discussed here is a S&T of Amare with the agreement of not matching offers for Lin. That would also gives us the MLE to spend. For example, Lin signs an offer sheet from Brooklyn of $8 million per year, then we S&T Amare for Deron Williams and don’t match the offer for Lin. Then we spend the MLE in whoever (Garnett… for example). That would probably be the best case scenario for us. And it is not bad for Brooklyn, Lin would attract a lot of fans, and Amare for all his defensive shortcomings, can carry a team offensively Lin/MarShon Brooks/Gerald Wallace/ Stoudemire/Brook Lopez almost looks like a playoff team.

    239. iserp

      I meant “I’d rather have Nash than Lin…”

      Also, in the Brooklyn Nets scenario i detailed above, Gerald Wallace should be grabbing 14 rpg for that team to work, since Amare and Lopez must be the worst rebounding frontcourt in NBA (well, perhaps Bargnani has something to say) xD

    240. bobneptune

      er:
      Ok bob, ray Felton was swapped for billups who was swapped for chandler. And yes Mozgov is a great player and yes gallo was shooting over 7% from three before tonight yes you are so right

      hey er,

      don’t blame the messenger.

      you were the one who made the smarmy comment that gallo and mozgov had little to do with the knuggets clubbing of the lakers winning their 3rd game from the vaunted lakers.

      i merely pointed out one of the components in the melo trade that created the resurgent knuggets was felton who begat miller who was an integral part in the enormous knugget victory last night, whether the denizens of denver like miller or not.

      he was an enormous part of the last 2 knugget victories which just happen to be 2 more playoff wins than the knicks have this millennia with the vaunted chucker melo.

      sorry the facts are so disquieting.

    241. bobneptune

      iserp:
      Lin will take the MLE or higher, and in case we want both Nash and Lin, Nash should be the one giving up money. I’d rather have Nash and Lin here, but we also should look for another PG, becasue Nash ain’t playing 40 mpg during the regular season. However, he would make our offense beautiful.

      Another possibility nobody has discussed here is a S&T of Amare with the agreement of not matching offers for Lin. That would also gives us the MLE to spend. For example, Lin signs an offer sheet from Brooklyn of $8 million per year, then we S&T Amare for Deron Williams and don’t match the offer for Lin. Then we spend the MLE in whoever (Garnett… for example). That would probably be the best case scenario for us. And it is not bad for Brooklyn, Lin would attract a lot of fans, and Amare for all his defensive shortcomings, can carry a team offensively Lin/MarShon Brooks/Gerald Wallace/ Stoudemire/Brook Lopez almost looks like a playoff team.

      just curious what the nyets gain from swapping d-will for amar’e with a bad disc? i mean other than consciously making the knicks enormously better.

      they don’t need to swallow amar’e contract and hamstring their cap for the next 4 years to get lin, they have plenty of cap space today and loads more should williams and wallace chose not to exercise their player options and become ufas.

    242. er

      Yes so your conclusion is that miller is better then melo ok then

      bobneptune: hey er,

      don’t blame the messenger.

      you were the one who made the smarmy comment that gallo and mozgov had little to do with the knuggets clubbing of the lakers winning their 3rd game from the vaunted lakers.

      i merely pointed out one of the components in the melo trade that created the resurgent knuggets was felton who begat miller who was an integral part in the enormous knugget victory last night, whether the denizens of denver like miller or not.

      he was an enormous part of the last 2 knugget victories which just happen to be 2 more playoff wins than the knicks have this millennia with the vaunted chucker melo.

      sorry the facts are so disquieting.

    243. er

      And Lawson for 32 is Melos fault too

      er:
      Yes so your conclusion is that miller is better then melo ok then

    244. iserp

      bobneptune: they don’t need to swallow amar’e contract and hamstring their cap for the next 4 years to get lin, they have plenty of cap space today and loads more should williams and wallace chose not to exercise their player options and become ufas.

      Well, i believe that Amare is still a really good player. A star in this league; the problem is that he doesn’t fit with Melo and we get diminishing returns, while his defense is lacking respective to a lot of guys whose offense could be compatible with Melo.

      I still think Amare is capable of 22ppg 8rbg +58%TS, in a system with the offense around him.

      I am not sure where Amare turned from being incompatible with Melo and play bad defense to be an useless bag of flesh (like Eddy Curry).

    245. 2FOR18

      bobneptune: just curious what the nyets gain from swapping d-will for amar’e with a bad disc? i mean other than consciously making the knicks enormously better.

      they don’t need to swallow amar’e contract and hamstring their cap for the next 4 years to get lin, they have plenty of cap space today and loads more should williams and wallacechose not to exercise their player options and become ufas.

      The Nets’ motivation is that Deron (and Wallace) is leaving anyway, along with the fear that no one of import will sign there. If the decision is made to try to move Amare because he’s a bad fit with melo and Tyson, then the Nets might be just the kind of desperate team we should deal with.

      How about this:
      A sign and trade of G Wallace for Amare.
      Pay Wallace 10 mil a year and give Lin the MLE.
      Then there’s plenty left over to get Nash if he’s willing, plus sign a FA like OJ Mayo, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Brandon Bass, Kenyon Martin, Camby, Stiemsma….

      Nash
      Mayo
      Wallace
      melo
      Tyson

      bench of Lin, Shump, Fields, Jorts, J Jordan, Jeffries, tddwtdd

    246. bobneptune

      er:
      Yes so your conclusion is that miller is better then melo ok then

      yes… always erect a straw man why your argument is specious.

      no…. my conclusion is miller, gallo and mozgov makes denver a far better team today then the knicks and a far better team than the pre trade nuggets.

      add ill will, a 2014 #1, a 2016 potential flip of #1’s, and 2 2013 #2’s and it becomes an extremely dumb trade when they could have sat chilly, won precisely as many payoff games as the past 2 seasons at a minimum, could have signed melo for nothing or if he forced a trade to the nyets , gone in a million other directions like having pieces to trade for d- will or cp3 or had a ton of empty cap space to sign ufa’s or rfa’s and kept the draft choices.

      they were 2 games over .500 at the moment of the trade with the team in turmoil all season and a year later they are 6 games over 500. whoopie. the only difference is they are now hamstrung cap-wise with incompatible stars and have no draft choices moving forward.

      but… all is not lost…. jimmy d got his ticket hike and all the “sophisticated” fans got their “star”.

      that is my conclusion……

    247. bobneptune

      2FOR18: The Nets’ motivation is that Deron (and Wallace) is leaving anyway, along with the fear that no one of import will sign there.If the decision is made to try to move Amare because he’s a bad fit with melo and Tyson, then the Nets might be just the kind of desperate team we should deal with.

      How about this:
      A sign and trade of G Wallace for Amare.
      Pay Wallace 10 mil a year and give Lin the MLE.
      Then there’s plenty left over to get Nash if he’s willing, plus sign a FA like OJ Mayo, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Brandon Bass, Kenyon Martin, Camby, Stiemsma….

      Nash
      Mayo
      Wallace
      melo
      Tyson

      bench of Lin, Shump, Fields, Jorts, J Jordan, Jeffries, tddwtdd

      you still haven’t explained why the nyets want amar’e with a bad disc and due 65 million over 3 years. they’d be better off without amar’e and have only 15 million on the books for next year if both d-will and wallace opt out.

    248. 2FOR18

      bobneptune: you still haven’t explained why the nyets want amar’e with a bad disc and due 65 million over 3 years. they’d be better off without amar’e and have only 15 million on the books for next year if both d-will and wallace opt out.

      Each team has to use up at least 85% of the cap. So they have to spend it on somebody.

    249. er

      The pre trade nuggets were the 4 seed in the west the year before even when George Karl missed alot of the season and were the 3 seed the year before.
      I think this Knicks team is better than the nuggets if the Knicks were at full strength

      bobneptune: yes… always erect a straw man why your argument is specious.

      no…. my conclusion is miller, gallo and mozgov makes denver a far better team today then the knicks and a far better team than the pre trade nuggets.

      add ill will, a 2014 #1, a 2016 potential flip of #1?s, and 2 2013 #2?s and it becomes an extremely dumb trade when they could have sat chilly, won precisely as many payoff games as the past 2 seasons at a minimum, could have signed melo for nothing or if he forced a trade to the nyets , gone in a million other directions like having pieces to trade for d- will or cp3 or had a ton of empty cap space to sign ufa’s or rfa’s and kept the draft choices.

      they were 2 games over .500 at the moment of the trade with the team in turmoil all season and a year later they are 6 games over 500. whoopie. the only difference is they are now hamstrung cap-wise with incompatible stars and have no draft choices moving forward.

      but… all is not lost…. jimmy d got his ticket hike and all the “sophisticated” fans got their “star”.

      that is my conclusion……

    250. er

      Yea way to use “turmoil” when convenient ….I don’t know a better word to describe 2011-12 Knicks

      bobneptune: yes… always erect a straw man why your argument is specious.

      no…. my conclusion is miller, gallo and mozgov makes denver a far better team today then the knicks and a far better team than the pre trade nuggets.

      add ill will, a 2014 #1, a 2016 potential flip of #1?s, and 2 2013 #2?s and it becomes an extremely dumb trade when they could have sat chilly, won precisely as many payoff games as the past 2 seasons at a minimum, could have signed melo for nothing or if he forced a trade to the nyets , gone in a million other directions like having pieces to trade for d- will or cp3 or had a ton of empty cap space to sign ufa’s or rfa’s and kept the draft choices.

      they were 2 games over .500 at the moment of the trade with the team in turmoil all season and a year later they are 6 games over 500. whoopie. the only difference is they are now hamstrung cap-wise with incompatible stars and have no draft choices moving forward.

      but… all is not lost…. jimmy d got his ticket hike and all the “sophisticated” fans got their “star”.

      that is my conclusion……

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