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Thursday, April 17, 2014

Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Mar 14 2013)

  • [New York Daily News] Melo injured in return to Denver, will head back to NY to see doc (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:50:08 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony’s homecoming could not have gone any worse for him, the Knicks and especially Tyson Chandler. Mike Woodson’s team really doesn’t have a good leg to stand on as the Knicks, thoroughly embarrassed 117-94 by the Denver Nuggets Wednesday night.

  • [New York Daily News] Lawrence: Fluid situation threatens to drown Knick playoff hopes (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:33:22 GMT)
    The Knicks think they won the Carmelo Anthony trade. The Nuggets will point to their amazing home record and lofty standing in the Western Conference and argue to the contrary. They’re both wrong.

  • [New York Daily News] Reformed Felton to face former squad when Knicks play Trail Blazers (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:18:46 GMT)
    Raymond Felton developed an uncanny knack for turning just about everyone against him during his one season in Portland.

  • [New York Newsday] Carmelo Anthony reinjures knee, sent back to NY after Knicks' loss to Nuggets (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:47:00 EDT)
    Carmelo Anthony's return to Denver went worse than he, Tyson Chandler and the Knicks could have imagined.

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ mile-high debacle: Melo to get knee drained; Chandler also hurt in rout (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:34:26 -0500)

    Denver Post via Getty Images
    Tyson Chandler is helped off the court by teammates after getting injured against the Nuggets Wednesday.

    DENVER â?? The Knicks must be cursed.
    The Knicks’ crisis went from bad to unthinkable Wednesday night. “The Melo Game” turned into a nightmare as center Tyson Chandler and Carmelo…

  • [New York Post] Melo to get knee drained; Chandler also hurt in rout (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:36:51 -0500)
    DENVER â?? The Knicks must be cursed.
    The Knicks’ crisis went from bad to unthinkable Wednesday night. “The Melo Game” turned into a nightmare as center Tyson Chandler and Carmelo Anthony didn’t finish because of knee injuries as the lifeless Knicks were clobbered by the Nuggets, 117-94, at Pepsi Center…

  • [New York Post] Big-name injuries are far from only reason this â??ship be sinkin’ (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:18:02 -0500)
    DENVER â?? It is for times like these when the Knicks’ own archives provide helpful guidance to the crises at hand. Thirty-one years ago, in the midst of an extended downturn in the team’s fortunes, it was Micheal Ray Richardson who provided a forever assessment of a team permanently afflicted…

  • [New York Post] Fat chance Felton feels Portland’s love (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:11:50 -0500)
    DENVER â?? Raymond Felton is firing back at his Portland detractors who made him a scapegoat for the Blazers’ rotten lockout season. “They didn’t make the playoffs last year when I was there,” Felton said before the Knicks’ ugly 117-94 loss to the Nuggets last night. “When I looked last…

  • [New York Times] Bryant Out Indefinitely After Spraining Left Ankle (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:24:05 GMT)
    Just when the Lakers were finally looking like the team everyone expected them to be, Kobe Bryant crumpled to the court.

  • [New York Times] Heat Streak at 20 After 98-94 Win Over 76ers (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:21:23 GMT)
    With LeBron James by his side in the locker room, Dwyane Wade took a moment to admire Miami’s streak.

  • [New York Times] Nuggets 117, Knicks 94: Anthony Struggles as Knicks Fall to Nuggets (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:21:12 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony scored only 9 points in his homecoming before booing fans and left in the third quarter, and now Tyson Chandler is also nursing a knee injury.

  • [New York Times] Anthony Flops in Knicks’ 117-94 Loss to Nuggets (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:30:08 GMT)
    His return to Denver having gone so awry, Carmelo Anthony is returning to New York to get his ailing right knee drained.

  • [New York Times] Anthony Heading Home to Get Right Knee Examined (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:14:49 GMT)
    Carmelo Anthony will cut his trip short and return to New York to have his balky right knee examined.

  • [New York Times] Grizzlies Beat Clippers for 14th Win in 15 Games (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:05:41 GMT)
    Exactly six weeks after the Memphis Grizzlies traded their leading scorer for spare parts in what was widely seen as a cost-cutting move, they dominated the Pacific Division-leading Los Angeles Clippers for their 14th victory in 15 games.

  • [New York Times] Warriors Hold Off Pesky Pistons, 105-97 (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:14:50 GMT)
    Stephen Curry had 31 points and eight assists, David Lee added 20 points and 15 rebounds and the Golden State Warriors grinded out a 105-97 victory over the struggling Detroit Pistons on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Bryant Sprains Ankle in Lakers’ Loss; Heat Extend Winning Streak to 20 (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:37:13 GMT)
    Kobe Bryant severely sprained his left ankle Wednesday night after missing a game-tying shot against the Hawks, while the Heat defeated the Sixers for their 20th straight victory.

  • [New York Times] Kings Crush Bulls 121-79 for Easiest Win of Season (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:35:36 GMT)
    Tyreke Evans had 26 points and seven assists in the Sacramento Kings’ most lopsided victory of the season, a 121-79 rout of the Chicago Bulls on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Durant, Westbrook Lead Thunder Past Jazz (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:06:40 GMT)
    Kevin Durant had 23 points and 10 rebounds, Russell Westbrook scored 19 points and the Oklahoma City cruised to a 110-87 victory over the Utah Jazz on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Heat Streak at 20 After 98-94 Win Over 76ers (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:45:02 GMT)
    LeBron James missed once, then again, whiffing on two easy looks at the rim that could have left Miami shaken.

  • [New York Times] Bryant Out Indefinitely With Severe Ankle Sprain (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:38:45 GMT)
    The Lakers’ push for the playoffs might be without Kobe Bryant for a while.

  • [New York Times] Motiejunas Leads Rockets in 30-Point Rout of Suns (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:39:09 GMT)
    Donatas Motiejunas scored a career-high 19 points to lead five Houston starters in double figures and the Rockets routed the Phoenix Suns 111-81 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Shorthanded Hawks Hold Off Bryant, Lakers 96-92 (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:36:18 GMT)
    Devin Harris scored 17 points, Ivan Johnson hit a key basket and the shorthanded Atlanta Hawks shook off a 20-point third quarter by Kobe Bryant, snapping a three-game losing streak with a 96-92 victory over the Los Angeles Lakers on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Mountain or Molehill: A Measure of Anthony’s Words (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:20:38 GMT)
    Back in Denver, where he started his career, Carmelo Anthony said he had reached the “pinnacleâ? with the Nuggets, who have never reached the finals.

  • [New York Times] Garnett, Pierce Reach Milestones in Celtics’ Win (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:18:17 GMT)
    Kevin Garnett scored 12 points, passing Jerry West for 15th on the NBA’s career scoring list, and Paul Pierce joined him among the top 20 scorers in league history with 15 points as the Boston Celtics beat the Toronto Raptors 112-88 on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Hibbert’s Double-Double Lifts Pacers Past Wolves (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:54:07 GMT)
    Roy Hibbert had a season-high 27 points and 12 rebounds to lead the Indiana Pacers to a 107-91 victory over the Minnesota Timberwolves on Wednesday night.

  • [New York Times] Knicks’ Raymond Felton Not Expecting Warm Welcome in Portland (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:49:48 GMT)
    Raymond Felton managed to alienate the Trail Blazers, their fans and the local news media during his short stay in Portland.

  • [New York Times] Wall Helps Wizards Hold Off Bucks (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:42:00 GMT)
    John Wall had 23 points and 10 assists, and the Washington Wizards beat the Milwaukee Bucks 106-93 Wednesday night.

  • [ESPN.com - New York Knicks] Rapid Reaction: Nuggets 117, Knicks 94 (Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:29:20 EDT)
    Doomsday in Denver?
    It certainly felt that way for the New York Knicks.
    Not only was New York embarrassed in Carmelo Anthony’s first trip to Denver as a Knick, but the team lost both Anthony and Tyson Chandler to injury in a 117-94 loss to the Denver Nuggets.
    Anthony left the game in the third quarter due to a sore right knee, the same injury that kept him out of three straight games last week.
    Chandler left the game late in the first half with a left knee contusion.

  • 73 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Thursday, Mar 14 2013)

    1. Robtachi

      Is it a ban-able offense to me to beat the dead horse that is: JESUS EFFING HARRY POTTER NEW POPE CHRIST IT’D BE NICE TO HAVE JEREMY LIN RIGHT NOW.

      That felt kinda good to say.

    2. d-mar

      Robtachi:
      Is it a ban-able offenseto me to beat the dead horse that is: JESUS EFFING HARRY POTTER NEW POPE CHRIST IT’D BE NICE TO HAVE JEREMY LIN RIGHT NOW.

      That felt kinda good to say.

      Yeah, Jeremy Lin would be the answer to all of our problems right now, no doubt about that….lol

    3. jon abbey

      Robtachi:
      Is it a ban-able offenseto me to beat the dead horse that is: JESUS EFFING HARRY POTTER NEW POPE CHRIST IT’D BE NICE TO HAVE JEREMY LIN RIGHT NOW.

      That felt kinda good to say.

      it’d be even nicer to have a good player.

    4. jon abbey

      Lin is still behind Felton in PER for the year, FWIW, 15.00 to 14.82.

      more importantly, the two of them are ranked 35th and 38th among all PGs in the league, meaning the only thing either is the answer to is “name a below average NBA PG who has played for NY recently”.

    5. thenamestsam

      jon abbey:
      Lin is still behind Felton in PER for the year, FWIW, 15.00 to 14.82.

      more importantly, the two of them are ranked 35th and 38th among all PGs in the league, meaning the only thing either is the answer to is “name a below average NBA PG who has played for NY recently”.

      And PER is in some ways a generous metric to apply to those guys since Felton’s D has been sieve like, and from the Rockets games I’ve seen Lin hasn’t been much better.

    6. Nick C.

      jon abbey:
      Lin is still behind Felton in PER for the year, FWIW, 15.00 to 14.82.

      more importantly, the two of them are ranked 35th and 38th among all PGs in the league, meaning the only thing either is the answer to is “name a below average NBA PG who has played for NY recently,

      who early on played very very well during double figure winning streaks leading to much hysteria and a glossing over of their warts as they came to Earth.”

    7. stratomatic

      The only positive that can be taken from recent games is that Shumpert appears to be rounding into form and doing better at SG (as opposed to SF). That makes two players (Chandler being the other) that I’d like to keep on this team long term if we actually want to contend some day.

    8. stratomatic

      On the model I use, Lin rates slightly higher than Felton for the season despite an absolutely horrific start shooting. Excluding that bad start, he has clearly been better. PER is nonsensical. It’s essentially rewarding Felton for chucking up stupid shots and occasionally making one.

    9. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      stratomatic: Excluding that bad start, he has clearly been better. PER is nonsensical.

      Yeah, but shh, it supports his eye-test. Shhh.

    10. flossy

      It’s been 28 years since the lottery was rigged in the Knicks favor, so I’m thinking we’re due for another, no? Unfortunately Toronto and Philly are so far back of the 8th seed that I’m pretty sure the Knicks could lose every single game from here on out and still stay out of the lottery. But since we actually have our own draft pick this year, it’s worth considering.

    11. stratomatic

      jon abbey:
      they both suck, that’s the point.

      I disagree.

      Felton is clearly a below average starting PG.

      IMO Lin generates enough minor incremental value from steals, rebounds, and assists that he rates at about average. However, after the horrendous start, IMO he has been playing EV+ PG.

      Lin blamed the bad start on his knee still not being 100%. I’d take that with a grain of salt, but it is possible because he is playing better. You could say the same about Felton and his hand, but Felton is older and has a longer track record of minutes. So we know what he is.

    12. Frank O.

      on the other hand, I kind of miss Gallo and Chandler.
      Spilled milk, but I like watching those guys play.

      One other lament:
      I regret the Knicks didn’t draft Ty Lawson, Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday or, hell, even AJ Price or Patrick Mills before Jordan Hill.

      Horrible draft. Add the insult of not having gotten Curry…

      So many missed opportunities…

    13. stratomatic

      flossy:
      But since we actually have our own draft pick this year, it’s worth considering.

      I would hold off on assuming that. The Knicks have a narrow window (I would say no window). They are in “win now” mode and don’t have time to try to develop a draft pick. I think it’s likely they trade the draft pick for some 38 year old ex con that showed promise in his youth that no one else in the NBA wants.

    14. Robtachi

      stratomatic:
      On the model I use, Lin rates slightly higher than Felton for the season despite an absolutely horrific start shooting.Excluding that bad start, he has clearly been better. PER is nonsensical. It’s essentially rewarding Felton for chucking up stupid shots and occasionally making one.

      Thank you. PER is completely borked, by this point. Lin clearly had injury rust to shake off, in addition to adjusting to the new team and Harden’s game, at the beginning of the season. Felton played pretty out of his mind and came crashing back to Earth.

      Player A: Per 36 – 15.5 PTS (14.9 FGA), 6.1 AST, 3.1 REB, 1.4 STL – .488 TS%, 29.4 AST%, 14.5 TOV%, 24% USG, 102 ORtg, 108 DRtg

      Player B: Per 36 – 14.2 PTS (11.8 FGA), 6.8 AST, 3.6 REB, 2.0 STL – .532 TS%, 28.8 AST%, 19.3 TOV%, 20% USG, 105 ORtg, 106 DRtg

      Player A’s only advantages lie in the fewer turnovers on higher usage. That is partially offset by Player B’s ability to create additional possessions with a higher steal rate, and further offset by Player A’s TERRIBLE shooting, in higher quantity, compared to Player B’s almost exactly league average shooting, employed more sparingly. Player B enjoys a noticeable advantage in all other aspects – even on defense, where both are terrible, but player B is still markedly better. Player B’s advantage in Offensive Rating is even greater. To my eyes, Player B clearly looks like the better player even as he does not take as large a role with his team as Player A.

      Obviously, as I employed this data to make my previous point, I can tell you Felton is Player A and Lin is Player B. On top of that, we can reasonably postulate that without each player’s respective anomalous months to start the season; Lin’s awful shooting while he was rounding back into form and Felton’s hot start while the Knicks were clearly playing over their heads, that the gap…

    15. Robtachi

      …would be even greater.

      If somebody can get the per-36 comparison for Lin vs. Felton excluding the first month, I’m certain they would bear that out. I can’t seem to specify that particular group of games on the reference sites I’m using.

      In fact, Lin’s first month was so uncharacteristically horrible that even if you wanted to strike each Lin’s and Felton’s single worst months from their respective seasons, Lin’s numbers would still be MUCH better than Felton’s.

      The sum of my point being, at this point, with bodies dropping all over the place, wouldn’t you like to have the guy who not only has been the better player, but is younger and theoretically has room before he hits his ceiling, and has already proven that when the main offensive threats go down, he is fully capable of putting an offense on his shoulders and weathering the storm? In fact, Lin already proved that he could do that in New York, for this very team. Felton, on the other hand, goes into hero mode and is lucky to simply catch fire one night out of five.

      Is Lin perfect? Infallible? An All-Star be-all end-all PG for the Knicks? No. But he’s way better than Raymond fucking Felton and I am amazed that on a blog with such basketball-savvy fans I even had to bother reasserting that.

      And that’s to say nothing about the fact that, dare I say most of us, really liked the kid and we could honestly take credit for having a home grown Knick to get behind. There’s just no doubt in my mind the Knicks could really benefit right now by having him out there.

    16. Robtachi

      And if nothing else, this is yet another cautionary tale about why you never, ever, ever, ever, EVER EVER EVER freakin’ EVER just give young assets away for nothing. The Knicks really dislike Lin’s game that much? Fine. But he’s got enough value to someone out there (Houston) to warrant $15 million in a couple of years, so extract some value from that. Duh. Who knows? Maybe what you got in return for him ends up helping your greatly depleted and ineffectual rotation now?

    17. flossy

      Robtachi:

      Player A: Per 36 – 15.5 PTS (14.9 FGA), 6.1 AST, 3.1 REB, 1.4 STL – .488 TS%, 29.4 AST%, 14.5 TOV%, 24% USG, 102 ORtg, 108 DRtg

      Player B: Per 36 – 14.2 PTS (11.8 FGA), 6.8 AST, 3.6 REB, 2.0 STL – .532 TS%, 28.8 AST%, 19.3 TOV%, 20% USG, 105 ORtg, 106 DRtg

      What amazes me is how pedestrian Felton’s AST% and assists/36 numbers are; in fact they match his career lows. Lin’s numbers aren’t much different in that respect, but he’s playing with a ball-dominant 2-guard who is averaging 5.5 assists/36 with an AST% of 25 in his own right.

      I’m not saying Jeremy Lin is amazing or anything, but he’s definitely better than Felton, who at this point either “creates” his own 20 foot jump shot or hands the ball off to Melo to get out of the way. He averages almost 2 full assists fewer in our losses than in our wins and has had only 4 games of 10+ assists all season.

    18. stratomatic

      Robatchi,

      I agree with your analysis. I don’t have the ability to generate the stats you are asking for from my spreadsheets, but I monitor them almost daily for all the Knicks, ex Knicks, and other major players. So I know what you are saying is correct.

      It’s all moot at this point.

      The Knicks went from a team trying accumulate young, underrated, high character, high IQ talent for the long term to a team that places no value on age, character, or the long term.

      It started the day Dolan overrode D’Antoni/Walsh on Melo and took back control of the final basketball decision making. I don’t claim to know the politics of it all behind the scenes, but I think some of it has to do with CAA. Dolan is competing for talent outside of basketball for MSG and has ceded some control of basketball decision making to people that don’t have winning as their #1 priority and don’t know anything about basketball. He’s also seemingly getting advice from people with backgrounds that make them less sensitive to the importance of trying to build a high character, high IQ team. If anything, the Knicks seem to favor the complete opposite (players that no one else in the NBA wants despite their known talents). Next up, Delonte West?

    19. Z-man

      I would say that Lin has played better overall than Felton this year. Still don’t think he was worth $25 mill + luxury tax for 3 years.

    20. Nick C.

      If what I read and hear on the radio is correct, the current luxury tax is extremely punitive. Is it on the order of 3x every $ over the cap or something along those lines?

    21. Owen

      Yeah, I think lin is better and younger than Felton. I agree with robtachi. And apparently his defense is better than expected according to, I think a Sloan paper. Puts a lot pressure on opposing ball handlers with his quick hands.

      But it’s not a huge difference between them. If they are saving 30 million or whatever I can’t fault them for it.

      Just sucked on an emotional level after the lift he gave the team last year….

    22. AnonymousODG

      People criticize Knicks management for signing injury prone basketball players and, in the same breath, think it was a no-brainer to re-sign Lin… who went down with a knee injury last season???????

    23. chrisk06811

      You know who I hate? Ty Lawson. 2009 draft; steph curry gets picked right before our pick; we panic and take Hill, who we did not need. Go back and look at the players we left on the board. I hate Ty Lawson. He blew right past all our guards last night.

    24. JK47

      Felton is playing the same stinky, below-average, uninspiring basketball he has played his entire career. A .488 TS% and a .067 WS/48? Yup, that’s Ray Felton, all right. Right in line with his career averages. As a backup PG he’d probably be passable but he plays 34 minutes a game here and jacks up 14 FGA per night. Ray Felton as a starting PG is a weakness, not a strength.

      But whatever, the Knicks have had shitty point guard play for what, 25 years now? I’m used to it.

    25. Brian Cronin

      Is it a ban-able offense to me to beat the dead horse that is: JESUS EFFING HARRY POTTER NEW POPE CHRIST IT’D BE NICE TO HAVE JEREMY LIN RIGHT NOW.

      Not bannable, but it is, indeed, beating a dead horse. Notice we don’t complain about how good Lamarcus Aldridge and Joakim Noah are doing, right? Because some things are better left in the past.

    26. Aharon

      mr.JayP:
      Delonte west? Great way to build Felton’s confidence.

      I thought we needed better guards before we had our entire frontcourt go down- don’t we need big men now more than mediocre guards?
      DOOOOOOOOOOOOLAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

    27. EB

      This just in: The New York Knicks fired their entire medical staff over the offseason and replaced them with a dog who makes all medical decisions by choosing between a ball marked injured and a ball marked uninjured…

    28. d-mar

      3 topics are a 100% probability to show up on this board whenever the Knicks are slumping:

      1) Revisiting the Melo trade for the umpteenth time and extolling the virtues of the future NBA champion Denver Nuggets

      2) Revisiting the Amare signing and reminding everyone that he makes a shitload of money and how we should have saved our amnesty for him (the ultimate in hindsight)

      3) Revisiting the Lin non-signing and pointing out that he’s probably a little better than Raymond Felton

      It really does get tiresome, where were these posts when the Knicks were 19-5? Not to say we’re that team now, but it’s the same old crap over and over and over again. Enough already.

    29. knickterp

      If Lin and Felton are essentially equals, I look forward to a Feltsanity run with a depleted Knicks team beginning now. Raymond can start with 38 tonight against Portland. But instead I expect we’ll see an exhausted, portly point guard play no defense, make one nice dribble-drive (after gathering all his energy), and then disappear for ten minutes. I hope I’m wrong!
      Felton needs to step up.

    30. Robtachi

      Z-man:
      I would say that Lin has played better overall than Felton this year. Still don’t think he was worth $25 mill + luxury tax for 3 years.

      Owen:
      But it’s not a huge difference between them. If they are saving 30 million or whatever I can’t fault them for it.

      Right now he might not be much better than Felton, though I maintain the difference is significant enough, especially with the added bonus that, yes, if necessary Lin is capable of being the #1 option on offense for short stretches, which Felton has proven over a middling career he cannot do. Right now, the difference is certainly worth the $1 additional Lin makes in salary. Saying he isn’t worth all that extra money in a couple of years might be true, but I don’t see why you’d assume he’s already plateaud having still not spent a full 82 games as an NBA starter. I think it’s pretty feasible he turns out to have been worth an average of $8.3 million per year by the end of his current deal.

      AnonymousODG:
      People criticize Knicks management for signing injury prone basketball players and, in the same breath, think it was a no-brainer to re-sign Lin… who went down with a knee injury last season???????

      Such an arbitrary argument. There’s a massive difference between one injury and guys who have 8-10+ years in the league of injury-plagued campaigns. Lin could go out tomorrow and get his orbital bone broken by an errant pass, but that wouldn’t make him injury prone, it’d make him unlucky.

    31. Garson

      Any predictions for the Starting lineup tonight without Chandler (not officially) and Melo?

      Felton
      Shump
      White
      Thomas
      Martin?

    32. Robtachi

      knickterp:
      If Lin and Felton are essentially equals, I look forward to a Feltsanity run with a depleted Knicks team beginning now.Raymond can start with 38 tonight against Portland.But instead I expect we’ll see an exhausted, portly point guard play no defense, make one nice dribble-drive (after gathering all his energy), and then disappear for ten minutes.I hope I’m wrong!
      Felton needs to step up.

      My point exactly. I don’t think the Knicks could really use Lin right now because he’s some transcendent talent looking down at Felton from his godly perch in the stratosphere, I just know that when Melo and STAT are injured or otherwise unable to provide the main scoring punch, Lin can, and in effective fashion, and Felton cannot. Period.

    33. Robtachi

      Robtachi:
      Right now, the difference is certainly worth the $1 additional Lin makes in salary.

      Obviously that should be $1 million.

    34. steveoh

      Considering Woody’s process for picking a lineup, that starting five for tonight looks about right:
      Felton
      Shump
      White
      Thomas
      Martin

      And the sound you just heard were the Bobcats, laughing.

    35. Robtachi

      To borrow vernacular from Lucius Sweet, Damian Lillard is gonna fustigate Felton tonight.

    36. AnonymousODG

      Robtachi:
      Such an arbitrary argument. There’s a massive difference between one injury and guys who have 8-10+ years in the league of injury-plagued campaigns. Lin could go out tomorrow and get his orbital bone broken by an errant pass, but that wouldn’t make him injury prone, it’d make him unlucky.

      Just an observation in irony. Besides being that your point doesn’t even apply to most of the guys who have missed times for injury this season like Shump, Felton, Kidd, Melo, Wallace, Chandler, Thomas. Moreover, two of STAT’s more infamous injuries had nothing even to do with his chronic knee problems.

      So basically I see whining about our depleted roster due to injury and how we should have re-signed a PG who hadn’t even returned from a season-ending knee injury/surgery/rehabilitation.

      Ladies and gentlemen, your New York Knicks fans.

    37. Owen

      Robtachi – I hear you. But honestly, I don’t think Lin is going to breakout. He is in his third year, played four years of college. It’s possible but there are a lot of guys with a better risk reward profile in the NBA. He could have a couple very good years but i think his ceiling is probably league average starter.

      It was just such an emotional suckerpunch after Linsanity, which was probably the most positive I have felt about the Knicks in 15 years.

      The other thing to consider is that Lin and Melo and Stat would never have worked. Lin would have been best suited to come off the bench with the second unit, just because he needs the ball in his hands just as much as Melo does to be effective.

      As for the constant reopening of old wounds….

      It is a cycle on this board. We go from false optimism and naive hope to annoying bitterness and alarming crustiness. Pick your poison I guess.

      Until the Knicks start making better decisions I don’t see things changing much. Hopefully Grunfeld can fix things….

    38. flossy

      AnonymousODG: Just an observation in irony.Besides being that your point doesn’t even apply to most of the guys who have missed times for injury this season like Shump, Felton, Kidd, Melo, Wallace, Chandler, Thomas.Moreover, two of STAT’s more infamous injuries had nothing even to do with his chronic knee problems.

      So basically I see whining about our depleted roster due to injury and how we should have re-signed a PG who hadn’t even returned from a season-ending knee injury/surgery/rehabilitation.

      Ladies and gentlemen, your New York Knicks fans.

      Are we talking about the same Jeremy Lin who has played more total minutes this season than anyone on the Knicks? Just making sure.

    39. Garson

      Owen:

      As for the constant reopening of old wounds….

      It is a cycle on this board. We go from false optimism and naive hope to annoying bitterness and alarming crustiness. Pick your poison I guess.

      Until the Knicks start making better decisions I don’t see things changing much. Hopefully Grunfeld can fix things….

      Ill take a naive hope please…

    40. Frank

      Re: the injuries – some of them, like Wallace/Camby’s feet, and STAT’s left knee injury earlier this year, can be attributed to known injury risk plus age. But the others are probably just bad luck.

      Felton out 4 weeks with a pinky injury – freak accident.
      STAT’s second knee injury – that was his GOOD knee. Tough to predict.
      Tyson’s knocked knees – freak accident
      Melo has no history of knee problems in the past.

      Honestly, we’ve been hit by an amazing wave of bad luck. Sure, maybe one could have predicted that we’d be more likely to have injury issues, but to have all of them all in the same season?

      One can only hope that the next 4-6 weeks (ie. before playoffs) will be the end of the injury bug, and that we’ll be healthy for the playoffs. I actually DO think that both STAT and Rasheed will be available for the playoffs – whether it’s round 1 or hopefully round 2, Woodson will really have his work cut out for him in terms of getting these guys reintegrated and back in game shape.

    41. AnonymousODG

      flossy: Are we talking about the same Jeremy Lin who has played more totalminutes this season than anyone on the Knicks?Just making sure.

      You do realize that the benefit of hindsight has no bearing on judging the foresight (or lack thereof) of Knicks’ management when it comes to signing people?

      In other words, the issue we are bearing down on is that fans curse management for #1 a depleted roster and signing injury-prone players (STAT, Camby… that’s it basically), #2 signing players that haven’t meshed well with Melo (literally forcing us to play them off the bench), and #3 our over-the-cap payroll, and turn around and act like management should have realized the salve to all of this this past off-season was re-signing a young raw point guard who #1 just had season ending knee surgery, #2 had zero chemistry with our best player, and #3 at an inflated above-market rate.

      Irony is irony.

    42. BigBlueAL

      Knicks lose tonight and their lead over the Nets will be down to 1 game (2 in the loss column). But looking ahead, the Nets dont play again until hosting the Hawks on Sunday then they have an 8 game road trip. First game is at Detroit and last one at Cleveland but in between they go to Dallas, Clippers, Phoenix, Portland, Denver and Utah.

      So yeah the Nets I highly doubt are passing the Knicks in the standings. Rest of the 5-7 seeds in the East right now are all still 5 back of the Knicks in the loss column. Knicks could limp there way to the finish line, win less than 50 games and still comfortably finish 3rd in the East.

    43. Owen

      That doesn’t look like that tough a trip. That’s 3 pretty easy games, two super tough games, and 3 toss ups….

      I mean, if they go 4-4, and we lose our next three, it’s going to be pretty tight right?

    44. KnickfaninNJ

      It’s not totally bad luck. We play a lot of iso ball which is physically punishing and the minutes of our key players are high.

      Frank:
      Re: the injuries – some of them, like Wallace/Camby’s feet, and STAT’s left knee injury earlier this year, can be attributed to known injury risk plus age.But the others are probably just bad luck.

      Felton out 4 weeks with a pinky injury – freak accident.
      STAT’s second knee injury – that was his GOOD knee. Tough to predict.
      Tyson’s knocked knees – freak accident
      Melo has no history of knee problems in the past.

      Honestly, we’ve been hit by an amazing wave of bad luck. Sure, maybe one could have predicted that we’d be more likely to have injury issues, but to have all of them all in the same season?

      One can only hope that the next 4-6 weeks (ie. before playoffs) will be the end of the injury bug, and that we’ll be healthy for the playoffs.I actually DO think that both STAT and Rasheed will be available for the playoffs – whether it’s round 1 or hopefully round 2, Woodson will really have his work cut out for him in terms of getting these guys reintegrated and back in game shape.

    45. BigBlueAL

      Owen:
      That doesn’t look like that tough a trip. That’s 3 pretty easy games, two super tough games, and 3 toss ups….

      I mean, if they go 4-4, and we lose our next three, it’s going to be pretty tight right?

      The game at Detroit is on Monday so its the 2nd of a back-to-back and there are 2 other back-to-backs in the trip including Denver/Utah.

      I would be very surprised if they go 4-4 on the trip plus this Sunday at home vs the Hawks isnt an automatic win either. Of course I still foolishly believe the Knicks will win at least one of the 3 remaining games on this road trip.

    46. stratomatic

      Owen:

      As for the constant reopening of old wounds….

      It is a cycle on this board. We go from false optimism and naive hope to annoying bitterness and alarming crustiness. Pick your poison I guess.

      Until the Knicks start making better decisions I don’t see things changing much. Hopefully Grunfeld can fix things….

      I think the constant rehashing of moves in recent years that have turned out poorly is an effort to demonstrate that they were easily foreseen with a competent analysis of the players involved, their limitations, their history, their age, a longer term view of their probable development and decline, and ultimately their fair value.

      The Knicks will NEVER make better decisions until the model they are using to evaluate players is sound and the fans/media are behind those better moves.

      The problem with the Knicks model is very basic.

      1. Overvalue volume scorers *** (a common problem)
      2. Overvalue the present ***
      3. Undervalue the future ***
      4. Undervalue high basketball IQ and high character individuals
      5. Undervalue lottery draft picks

      Granted, you can easily overshoot in the other direction on some of those things. But until fans, the NY media, and NY management actually start valuing players properly, we are screwed. We have to rehash the thinking that lead to the mistakes so we stop making them. We have to stop rationalizing them away as bad luck or whatever.

      The move to get Amare was BAD and every team in the NBA except the Knicks knew that!

      The trade to get Melo was BAD because we gave up WAY too much for a player that is not only not a superstar, he’s barely an all star if valued properly.

      I could go, but you get the picture.

    47. Darrell H.

      Re. Lin. I live down here in hell (aka Houston). It is so funny to listen to Knick’s fans lament letting Lin go. The media down here routinely bashes Daryl Morey for signing Lin to that pathetic contract. Lin has been terrible this year for Houston. His numbers are extremely inflated by the run-and-gun offense they play here and those numbers still suck! And, if the Rockets make the playoffs, we’ll see how sustainable that offense is. I’ll take Felton over Lin in a playoff series any day…

    48. Owen

      You are preaching to the converted. That’s a highly polished version of my schtick for seven years.

      Jon probably has it the most right of all of us. Just don’t buy tickets.

      Hard to give up on the Knicks though, just can’t quit them…..

      stratomatic: I think the constant rehashing of moves in recent years that have turned out poorly is an effort to demonstrate that they were easily foreseen with a competent analysis of the players involved, their limitations, their history, their age, a longer term view of their probable development and decline, and ultimately their fair value.

      The Knicks will NEVER make better decisions until the model they are using to evaluate players is sound and the fans/media are behind those better moves.

      The problem with the Knicks model is very basic.

      1. Overvalue volume scorers *** (a common problem)
      2. Overvalue the present ***
      3. Undervalue the future ***
      4. Undervalue high basketball IQ and high character individuals
      5. Undervalue lottery draft picks

      Granted, you can easily overshoot in the other direction on some of those things.But until fans, the NY media, and NY management actually start valuing players properly, we are screwed.We have to rehash the thinking that lead to the mistakes so we stop making them.We have to stop rationalizing them away as bad luck or whatever.

      The move to get Amare was BAD and every team in the NBA except the Knicks knew that!

      The trade to get Melo was BAD because we gave up WAY too much for a player that is not only not a superstar, he’s barely an all star if valued properly.

      I could go, but you get the picture.

    49. DRed

      Owen:
      You are preaching to the converted. That’s a highly polished version of my schtickfor seven years.

      Jon probably has it the most right of all of us. Just don’t buy tickets.

      Hard to give up on the Knicks though, just can’t quit them…..

      The last time I bought Knicks tickets I was able to move my way down to the second row behind the Knicks bench and scream at Isiah for about 8 minutes. I didn’t like giving Dolan any money, but it was very satisfying.

    50. chrisk06811

      This is a WEIRD year. If you look at ALL the guys either signed, traded or rumored to be traded that we have discussed this year……who among them has played above expectations? I count Brook Lopez, Omir Asik and James Harden, and that’s it. Everyone else is either hurt (Bynum), playing below expectations, or maybe as expected

    51. Z

      Owen: Hard to give up on the Knicks though, just can’t quit them…..

      I found it pretty easy to quit them this year, even with the good start. Come trade-deadline time I found I missed the speculation and started reading this blog again with regularity. But I haven’t watched a second of any NBA games this year, and I do feel better for it.

      Owen:

      Just sucked on an emotional level after the lift he gave the team last year….

      Yup. This was what pushed me away. Not that I loved Lin. But I loved being a Knicks fan again thanks to Lin, and then Dolan/Carmelo/CAA went and ruined that too.

      d-mar: 3 topics are a 100% probability to show up on this board whenever the Knicks are slumping… where were these posts when the Knicks were 19-5?

      Obviously the disgruntled fans only come out when things are bad.
      Why would people complain about winning?

      People come here and criticize/applaud the FO. They spend a lot of time thinking about it. Why shouldn’t they revisit it when time proves those moves to be either good or bad?

      (Like not wanting to pay Lin $25,000,000 is a move I disliked, but understood. BUT, I don’t understand how you go and give that same money to a package of Felton, Camby, and Kidd. Sure it’s “diversified”, but when you choose to invest that money in the elderly instead of in youth, you are going to have troubles down the road. Unfortunately for the Knicks, “down the road” is, apparently, the first year of those contracts, not the last…)

    52. jon abbey

      DRed: The last time I bought Knicks tickets I was able to move my way down to the second row behind the Knicks bench and scream at Isiah for about 8 minutes.I didn’t like giving Dolan any money, but it was very satisfying.

      I can accept that.

    53. flossy

      Darrell H.:
      I’ll take Felton over Lin in a playoff series any day…

      Really? Because in the 9 playoff games Felton has ever played in, he has been horrible. Jameer Nelson absolutely ate him alive. I’m not sure Lin is the guy I’d want at PG for my playoff team, but Felton sure as hell ain’t that guy either.

    54. ruruland

      flossy: Really?Because in the 9 playoff games Felton has ever played in, he has been horrible.Jameer Nelson absolutely ate him alive.I’m not sure Lin is the guy I’d want at PG for my playoff team, but Felton sure as hell ain’t that guy either.

      When Felton is asked to score, he’s terrible. But a really good motor to the offense with Melo, Chandler, shooters and Amar’e? Yeah.

    55. Brian Cronin

      Woody, Woody, Woody, this is so dumb…

      When asked about Melo playing against Denver, Woodson said “I’m going to listen to my players; he told me he could play and we accommodated him by playing”

      When asked if it was his responsibility to make the final call, he replied “It’s my job to do that but it’s also my job to trust my players and believe in my players to the point where I trust their judgment as well.”

      Soooooooooooooo dumb.

    56. Aharon

      Brian Cronin:
      Woody, Woody, Woody, this is so dumb…

      When asked about Melo playing against Denver, Woodson said “I’m going to listen to my players; he told me he could play and we accommodated him by playing”

      When asked if it was his responsibility to make the final call, he replied “It’s my job to do that but it’s also my job to trust my players and believe in my players to the point where I trust their judgment as well.”

      Soooooooooooooo dumb.

      Wow, that is super dumb.

      Realistically, I think that not buying tickets to go see the Knicks won’t have much of an effect on Dolan’s ownership of the team. Since we love to speculate on possible trade scenarios, anyone have any ideas for what would cause Dolan to sell the team?
      I gotta admit, it’s extremely depressing rooting for a team that a good part of me feels will always be flawed because of its ownership.
      I have actually seriously considered on numerous occasions that given that I am younger than Jimmy by almost 30 years, there will come a day where I will be a fan and he will not own the team (not that I wish any harm to him, of course)- is that evil/depressing/a classic Knick fan trait?

    57. jon abbey

      Aharon:
      I have actually seriously considered on numerous occasions that given that I am younger than Jimmy by almost 30 years, there will come a day where I will be a fan and he will not own the team (not that I wish any harm to him, of course)- is that evil/depressing/a classic Knick fan trait?

      it’s overly kind IMO: people die every day, the sooner the better for that bozo.

      and I honestly don’t blame Woodson, CAA and Dolan run the team, not him.

    58. jon abbey

      Aharon:

      Realistically, I think that not buying tickets to go see the Knicks won’t have much of an effect on Dolan’s ownership of the team.

      really, you don’t think a few years of half-empty games and a public, active boycott would have an effect? I’d sure like to see it and know for sure.

    59. domiknick

      Sorry if this is a re-post. From Zach Lowe over on Grantland.

      Finally: Carmelo Anthony’s return to Denver went about as poorly as could be for the Knicks. He left the game with knee pain, and he revealed this week that he’s been dealing with some knee issues for a while; he has left the Knicks’ road trip to get the knee drained. Tyson Chandler suffered a knee contusion, and though he’s listed as “probable” for the Raymond Felton Weight-Loss Bowl in Portland tonight, any limitation on Chandler’s game is basically a season-killer for the Knicks. He’s the only thing separating the team’s defense from Sacramento/Charlotte-levels of awfulness, and the Knicks’ roster is getting awfully thin — to the point that it recalls last season’s first-round loss to Miami, when injuries (both on-court and fire-extinguisher-related) didn’t necessarily sap the Knicks of essential pieces, but rather simply removed too many playable NBA types from the team’s rotation.

      I mean, the Knicks are carrying eight players who are either out with long-term injuries or total unknowns when it comes to trusting them with actual playoff minutes this season:

      1. Rasheed Wallace
      2. James White
      3. Chris Copeland
      4. Pablo Prigioni
      5. Marcus Camby
      6. Kurt Thomas
      7. Kenyon Martin
      8. Amar’e Stoudemire (admittedly, a semi-unpredictable casualty).

      That’s more than half the full 15-man roster made up of guys who are hurt, unreliable, almost totally unknown, or good for only tiny stints at the beginning of games before Mike Woodson concludes, again, that they simply can’t be on the floor. That’s half the team. It makes it all the more strange that the Knicks traded Ronnie Brewer for nothing. Brewer faded badly after a hot start, and his defense fell off with his offense, but the guy is a live body capable of playing competent minutes in an NBA game. He’s a below-average NBA player when his defense is off, but he’s playable. And he can walk on two feet for prolonged periods of time!

      And please spare me the notion that the Brewer trade “opened” a roster spot for Martin, himself a bit of an unknown as he re-proves himself at this level. The Knicks could have, and probably should have, waived any number of these guys before trading Brewer. Wallace is unlikely to play again this season, anyway, and New York might waive one of these players in the next few days anyway in order to sign another player.

      The Knicks are still a very good team when they’re healthy and on point, passing the ball, rotating like hell on defense, and leveraging Anthony’s advantage at the power forward spot. I hope we see that team in April and May.

    60. chrisk06811

      I am agreeable to not second guess the Melo trade or not signing Lin ever again; what’s done is done, and the past can’t be changed. But, I swear to my maker that I will hate Ty Lawson until the end of time for his role, whatever the hell it was, in allowing us to take Jordan Hill over him. That draft decision could have been made based on their hair alone (See Balkman, R over Rondo, R, or Lowry, K, or more recently, Copeland, C vs anybody in shorts whom he is “guarding”)

    61. jon abbey

      chrisk06811:
      I am agreeable to not second guess the Melo trade or not signing Lin ever again; what’s done is done, and the past can’t be changed.But, I swear to my maker that I will hate Ty Lawson until the end of time for his role, whatever the hell it was, in allowing us to take Jordan Hill over him.That draft decision could have been made based on their hair alone (See Balkman, R over Rondo, R, or Lowry, K, or more recently, Copeland, C vs anybody in shorts whom he is “guarding”)

      I certainly don’t always get it right, but check posts #7 and #10 here:

      http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-draft-hilldouglas/

    62. sean joh

      Z-man:
      I would say that Lin has played better overall than Felton this year. Still don’t think he was worth $25 mill + luxury tax for 3 years.

      why fans care about that money ? You are not paying it. why knicks’ fan could use ” at least Felton is cheaper” as an excuse to comfort themselves. Doesn’t Knicks needs good players not cheap players?

    63. Owen

      And i have to say, that was a great thread. The old days, when men were men, and Mike K still posted here, and Ted Nelson and Caleb…..

      I wish i had staked my claim on Lawson as strongly there as I did in that chat room we set up.

      You were right though, definitely. And D-Mar, we will have to ask him about that one….

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